Speaker 1: Warning, this podcast contains spoilers for the premiere of Secret Invasion,
Speaker 1: streaming now on Disney Plus. Hello, my name is Jason
Speaker 1: and I'm Rosie Nike and welcome to Extra Vision, The
Speaker 1: Crooked podcast where we dive deep into your favorite shows, movies, comics,
Speaker 1: and pop culture.
Speaker 2: In this episode. In the previously on, we're talking about
Speaker 2: Neil Kirby's comments on the new Stanley documentary. That's Neil Kirby,
Speaker 2: the son of Jack Kirby, fame Marvel creator. In the
Speaker 2: airlock It's a Secret Invasion premiere, and in the nerd
Speaker 2: out a rebuttal on whether the coach Ben should have
Speaker 2: burned down the cabin in Yellowjacket season two finale controversial.
Speaker 2: Can't wait to hear that one. And we'll also be
Speaker 2: talking about another Marvel story that's been making the Internet
Speaker 2: talk today, which is the AI controversy over the Secret
Speaker 2: Invasion opening credits.
Speaker 1: Coming up previously on. First up, let's talk about Neil
Speaker 1: Kirby's comments son Marvel Comics artist, writer, all around comics
Speaker 1: legend Jack Kirby, which expressed the dismay at the framing
Speaker 1: of stan Lee's involvement in the creation of various Marvel
Speaker 1: Comics icons, but most notably Spider Man that appeared in
Speaker 1: the new Stanley documentary on Disney Plus, which is titled
Speaker 1: simply Stanley. Not quite a documentary, but we can talk
Speaker 1: about that in a second. Essentially, Stanley's position always was
Speaker 1: one that he was willing to say that Steve Ditko
Speaker 1: Jack Kirby, those two co created Spider Man. But he
Speaker 1: was only willing to say that as a weird like
Speaker 1: Olive Branch, to make them happy. But when pressed on
Speaker 1: the issue, he would always say, well, I.
Speaker 2: I thought of it, so I invented it. I thought
Speaker 2: of it.
Speaker 1: Therefore I am the sole creator of Spider Man. Now
Speaker 1: Here is Neil's statement in part it says it should
Speaker 1: be noted and is generally accepted that Stanley, this is
Speaker 1: such a fucking wild way to.
Speaker 2: I just want to say, this is years in the making,
Speaker 2: This is years of controversy. I will give you a
Speaker 2: little bit of an insight into it when we talk
Speaker 2: about it. But this is Neil, after having to go
Speaker 2: through the legal system to get money for the things
Speaker 2: that his father created, including the X Men, the Fantastic Four,
Speaker 2: like basically a thor every superhero that you like, from
Speaker 2: Marvel was partially created, probably by Jack Kirby and alongside Stanley,
Speaker 2: So it is going to sound pretty angry, but there's
Speaker 2: context for it.
Speaker 1: And by the way, before we get into the opening
Speaker 1: salvos of the statement, which again are crazy, it's important
Speaker 1: to note that comics, being a visual medium m HM,
Speaker 1: are naturally going to be a collaboration between artists and writer.
Speaker 1: Like stan could say, Hey, a guy with spider powers,
Speaker 1: and maybe we call him Spider Man exactly in order
Speaker 1: for him to be sole creator, he would probably also
Speaker 1: have to say, and the costume looks like this, and
Speaker 1: I'm gonna draw it, and I'm going to draw it,
Speaker 1: and I've decided the webbings go under the arms like this,
Speaker 1: and no that like the rest of it. Yeah, you
Speaker 1: had the idea, but then other people move the ball
Speaker 1: down the.
Speaker 2: Field, and even I will say as well, the question
Speaker 2: of what ideas stan had are very controversial. For example,
Speaker 2: as Neil gets into here, it is highly understood now
Speaker 2: decades later that Jack Kirby invented the Fantastic Four and
Speaker 2: based them on the challenges of the unknown, But even
Speaker 2: in the new documentary in Inverted Commas that Disney plus
Speaker 2: released called stan Lee. They have stan saying that he
Speaker 2: invented them, he created the characters. So even that idea
Speaker 2: of who came up with the idea is still very
Speaker 2: much contest.
Speaker 1: Well, I think it is generally accepted in terms of
Speaker 1: the Fantastic Four that stan said something like, hey, it
Speaker 1: would be cool if there was a superhero family.
Speaker 2: No no, no, no, there's letters from Stan and stuff. Now,
Speaker 2: the Fantastic Four one is very deep because, as Neil
Speaker 2: points out, they're essentially based on Challenges the Unknown, which
Speaker 2: was something that Jack had done already at DC. And
Speaker 2: not just that, but the characters are named after people
Speaker 2: that were close to Jack Kirby. So stan has always
Speaker 2: said he wanted to do like a team. But it's
Speaker 2: unclear whether this one is one of the most contested
Speaker 2: the Fantastic Four.
Speaker 1: Well, here is Neil's statement in part quote. It should
Speaker 1: be noted and is generally accepted that Stanley had a
Speaker 1: limited knowledge of history, mythology.
Speaker 2: Or sien things that Jack Kirby loved.
Speaker 1: I mean, listen, I'm largely on Jack's and Steve Didko's sider.
Speaker 1: But that is like you're really saying, like, hey, everybody
Speaker 1: knows Stanley didn't read.
Speaker 2: Well, I will say, and this actually comes across in
Speaker 2: the doc documentary. Stan built a lot of his career
Speaker 2: on basically saying he was ashamed of comics, and that
Speaker 2: comics weren't adult, and comics weren't deep.
Speaker 1: And failed novelists and.
Speaker 2: Failed novelists would write comics, and that comics were not serious.
Speaker 2: So I think that what Neil did here that I
Speaker 2: really love about this statement As someone who's written quite
Speaker 2: extensively on this, he went at it in an academic
Speaker 2: framework and used sure the mythology which Jack was so
Speaker 2: keen on. We talked previously about his like wild DC stuff,
Speaker 2: k new gods right. So like Neil saying, look, stan
Speaker 2: probably didn't like this stuff as much as my dad.
Speaker 2: So who do you think was calling on Norse mythology?
Speaker 2: Who do you think was calling on these kind of
Speaker 2: archetypal tropes that came from decades and centuries of law.
Speaker 2: It was probably my dad and he goes real academic
Speaker 2: with it.
Speaker 1: It's pretty wild, the statement continues. On the other hand,
Speaker 1: my father's knowledge of these subjects, to which I and
Speaker 1: many others can personally test, was extensive. Einstein summed it
Speaker 1: up better more than I knowledge, lesser of the ego
Speaker 1: lesser than knowledge more the ego, which I'll just say
Speaker 1: makes it seem like Einstein was weighing in on Jack
Speaker 1: Kirby versus Stanley. I probably would have scrubbed that mention
Speaker 1: if I was Neil's editor. A little bit of a
Speaker 1: weird ad here.
Speaker 2: It was posted on his Twitter by his doors, so
Speaker 2: probably no idea.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it continues. You will see Lee's name as a
Speaker 1: co creator on every character, with the exception of the
Speaker 1: Silver Surfer Solar creator by my father. Are we to
Speaker 1: assumably had a hand in creating every Marvel character? Or
Speaker 1: we to assume that it was never the other co
Speaker 1: creator that walked into Lee's office and that stan I
Speaker 1: have a great idea for a character. According to Lee,
Speaker 1: it was always his idea. That's absolutely the case. Here's
Speaker 1: a tweet by Brian Cronin, a great comics historian who
Speaker 1: works over at CBRS, written, I've referred personally in my
Speaker 1: own research to his articles many, many, many a time.
Speaker 2: He does a great like comic book legends where he
Speaker 2: breaks down like, yes, famous myths and are they true?
Speaker 2: And how did they happen? And yeah, he knows extensively
Speaker 2: about this.
Speaker 1: He knows his stuff, and he you know, here's a
Speaker 1: thread and a snippet of an article that he posted
Speaker 1: several days ago. In response to this, he wrote, quote,
Speaker 1: here's a Stanley thing that always amazes me. He was
Speaker 1: stuck on the idea that he was the sole creative
Speaker 1: Spider Man because he quote came up with the ideas,
Speaker 1: despite obviously not being the one who came up with
Speaker 1: the idea of doing a comic book called Spider Man?
Speaker 1: Can you even imagine that? And then he posts a
Speaker 1: snippet of a conversation that Stanley had with Jonathan Ross,
Speaker 1: in which Ross asks, but do you believe Steve didco
Speaker 1: co created Spider Man? And Stanley says, I'm willing to
Speaker 1: say so, Ross, That's not what I'm asking you.
Speaker 2: Lee.
Speaker 1: No, that's the best answer I can give you. So
Speaker 1: it's a no. Then, really, Lee, No, I really think
Speaker 1: the guy who dreams the thing up created it. You
Speaker 1: dream it up and then you give it to somebody
Speaker 1: to draw it. Now, that's not how it works.
Speaker 2: But that's literally a quote they use in the Disney
Speaker 2: documentary or in Stan's voice, And I think that I
Speaker 2: was really happy to see how much this was reported
Speaker 2: on because this was just shared through Jillian Kirby, Neil's
Speaker 2: daughter's Twitter account. She shared this very long phrasing and
Speaker 2: rebuttal that Neil posted, and I think everyone should read it.
Speaker 2: It's really important and it's really great to see it
Speaker 2: in variety in THHR to see people like Giema del Toro,
Speaker 2: Brian Cronin coming forward and talking about the realities of this.
Speaker 2: No one is trying to take away Stanley's legacy. He
Speaker 2: did a very good job over his long life of
Speaker 2: building that legacy, and Marvel and especially Marvel Studios, both
Speaker 2: comics and the films, have helped him build it. He
Speaker 2: took on a very famous role at one point Chairman Emeritus,
Speaker 2: where he just got paid a wage to essentially be
Speaker 2: like a spokesperson for Marvel and promote the Marvel brand,
Speaker 2: and in doing that he built a legend in law
Speaker 2: for himself that he was a sole creator. And while
Speaker 2: that was almost something of just a personal mythos, stan
Speaker 2: also spoke at depositions in the favor of Marvel and
Speaker 2: against his creators getting rights, getting original art, and getting money.
Speaker 2: So he did end up doing this on the backs
Speaker 2: of other people. And that's why someone like Neil has
Speaker 2: such a personal investment in this because while like me
Speaker 2: and you, we talk about Jack Kirby all the time,
Speaker 2: I feel like since thor Ragnarok there's been a more
Speaker 2: wide appreciation of Kirby and his influence. It did take
Speaker 2: decades to get there, including a very long lawsuit that
Speaker 2: ended up with a settlement between Marvel and the Kirby family.
Speaker 2: Because something that people might not know is that when
Speaker 2: these creators were creating these characters, they were not working
Speaker 2: under what we call work for Higher agreements. So these
Speaker 2: characters were created and the people who created them actually
Speaker 2: did have some kind of claim to them, but as
Speaker 2: happened with Siegel and Schuster and Superman, in the case
Speaker 2: of Marvel, those essentially ended up becoming the property of
Speaker 2: Marvel due to payment agreements that they made. A lot
Speaker 2: of the creators actually had to just sign over those
Speaker 2: rights to get their checks. Yeah, and that happened in
Speaker 2: the seventies, So there is a lot of history here.
Speaker 2: And I watched the documentary, I actually found that it
Speaker 2: was quite sad. That was kind of how I felt
Speaker 2: about it. Even made me feel quite sad for Stan
Speaker 2: and I've written quite extensively about this history and his
Speaker 2: role in the way that creators were treated at Marvel.
Speaker 2: But I think Neil was right to do this, and
Speaker 2: I think that everyone should watch the documentary because I
Speaker 2: think it actually doesn't paint Stan in the light that
Speaker 2: I'm sure Disney Plus wanted them to, because it is
Speaker 2: all told in his own words, so you can catch
Speaker 2: a lot of the contradictions that he would say in
Speaker 2: the way he would change these stories. But it's very
Speaker 2: interesting to see people talking about this and recognizing it
Speaker 2: and having conversations now with a more literate audience. Like
Speaker 2: you pointed out when you read that Jonathan Ross interview quote,
Speaker 2: you just know if you read comics, that's just not
Speaker 2: how it is. But you have to be able to
Speaker 2: draw it to claim, you know, you'll the soule create
Speaker 2: a Yeah.
Speaker 1: And I think, more broadly speaking and creative collaboration, there
Speaker 1: is no scientific way to in all cases accurately gauge
Speaker 1: what a person's influence on a particular project that is
Speaker 1: created through creative collaboration is. At any given time. If
Speaker 1: Stan says, okay, I have Spider Man, then gives it
Speaker 1: to Steve and Jack and they draw it up. You've
Speaker 1: got to figure out a way to split that that
Speaker 1: is going to probably make somebody feel bad in order
Speaker 1: for it to be equitable. Like I personally think, you've
Speaker 1: just got to come somewhere to fifty to fifty in
Speaker 1: stuff like this. Now somebody is going to feel like, well,
Speaker 1: I did more work and I brought this person in.
Speaker 1: And that's always the way it works with this stuff.
Speaker 1: But there's just no way to accurately do it. Somebody
Speaker 1: has to be the person who says, let's just share it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot exactly. I actually think that it sounds
Speaker 2: so simple, but that's what was missing a lot of
Speaker 2: the time. Like a lot of what the documentary focuses
Speaker 2: on when it does bring this stuff up is Stan's
Speaker 2: reaction to it, And sadly, his reaction was, I am
Speaker 2: the sole creator. I came up with these ideas, and
Speaker 2: that then creates this cycle where people are unfairly pushed
Speaker 2: out of crediting, and especially with Spider Man is a
Speaker 2: really great example. So Steve Ditko is now seen as
Speaker 2: the co creator of Spider Man. And before he passed away,
Speaker 2: you know, he was very isolated. He kept to himself.
Speaker 2: He did a lot of great self publishing, a lot
Speaker 2: of which spoke about his issues with Stanley, but he
Speaker 2: ended up getting checks from Spider Man. He kind of
Speaker 2: got a little bit more of that equity. But Spider
Speaker 2: Man was originally drawn by Jack Kirby, as you pointed out,
Speaker 2: and then standing like the way it looked. But allegedly
Speaker 2: there are also a version of the story where Jack
Speaker 2: had come up with that idea before with Joe Simon
Speaker 2: about a Spider Man character. And then there is the
Speaker 2: very controversial fact that the Spider Man costume looks like
Speaker 2: a costume that a Halloween company had been making. So
Speaker 2: there's all this kind of blurry conversation around it that
Speaker 2: comes from the fact that these were stories being made
Speaker 2: for what was seen as a disposable medium for kids,
Speaker 2: that people were getting paid like no money to write
Speaker 2: and draw. And it's kind of funny to now have
Speaker 2: to extrapolate this when it's about like a billion dollar project.
Speaker 1: I think the thing to your point that's sad about
Speaker 1: this for me is setting aside all of Stanley's self aggrandizement,
Speaker 1: just the stuff that you can absolutely say with authority
Speaker 1: that Stanley was responsible for that the promotion of comics
Speaker 1: and Marvel in particular advocacy. Steve Dicko you mentioned was
Speaker 1: a you know, was a ann Randian shut in who
Speaker 1: had no inclination to be the front facing salesman for comics.
Speaker 2: He didn't even want them to publish pictures of him.
Speaker 2: There's barely any.
Speaker 1: Jack Kirby was a kind of rough and tumble guy
Speaker 1: who did not have the kind of charm and like
Speaker 1: eagerness to hoobknob that Stanley had. That's like not nothing
Speaker 1: being the promotional guy for comics and coming up with
Speaker 1: a lot of you know, he did come up with
Speaker 1: a lot of the ideas, and while the Marvel method
Speaker 1: was created ad hoc to deal with what the structure
Speaker 1: of Marvel was at the time, it was not like
Speaker 1: a strategized system. It also gave him like tremendous influence
Speaker 1: in the stories that were created. So I think what's
Speaker 1: sad about this is it overshadows the stuff that he
Speaker 1: really did do, which is tremendous, like really really important stuff. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think that's the saddest thing is that in creating
Speaker 2: this personal legend and then in posthumously, like with stand
Speaker 2: now passed away in Disney trying to carve this idea
Speaker 2: that he was some golden child who did everything himself. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you rub away the reality of the whole man. And
Speaker 2: like you said, this is what I always say. I wrote.
Speaker 2: I wrote an a bituary for Stanley that I'm really
Speaker 2: proud of Esquy Magazine when he passed away, and it
Speaker 2: was essentially a history of all of this stuff. And
Speaker 2: I always say, brilliant editor, unbelievable editor. A lot of
Speaker 2: what he talks about when he talks about writing, he
Speaker 2: was just editing someone else's story and giving them ideas
Speaker 2: and notes. He's an incredible talent spot I look at
Speaker 2: the people he surrounded himself. Yeah, John Bushma, Steve Ditko,
Speaker 2: Jack Kirby. Also, he is also one of the original
Speaker 2: NEPO babies. They actually don't really talk about that very much.
Speaker 2: So yes, you know, he got his job at Marvel
Speaker 2: because of his cousin and stuff like that. But he's
Speaker 2: also an unbelievable advocate for comics. Like you said, he
Speaker 2: went on college tours. He made comics. They were taken
Speaker 2: seriously in an academic way for the first time because
Speaker 2: he would go and tour and he knew that there
Speaker 2: were teenagers who read this stuff, there were adults who
Speaker 2: read it. He would go on late night talk shows.
Speaker 2: He moved to Hollywood, and that's why you have TV
Speaker 2: based on comic books in the way that we understand,
Speaker 2: and all of those things are amazing.
Speaker 1: He had been working since the early seventies to try
Speaker 1: and make Marvel Yeah, have an impact in TV and film,
Speaker 1: and then a lot of the stuff that we see
Speaker 1: now is because he put that flag out there in
Speaker 1: the seventies.
Speaker 2: He has his first cameo in the Marvel universe is
Speaker 2: in one of the old Incredible Hulk TV movies. You know,
Speaker 2: this is something he was doing for a long time.
Speaker 2: And it is sad that the controversies, which I will
Speaker 2: say he did have a big hand in creating. So
Speaker 2: it's kind of like the conversation needs to be holistic
Speaker 2: and talk about what he did great and what he
Speaker 2: did wrong. And I think the sad truth is in
Speaker 2: this case, all Neil and his family are looking for
Speaker 2: is where's the Jack Kirby documentary. If you have the
Speaker 2: Jack Kirby documentary that talks about all the things that
Speaker 2: Jack did, then nobody worries about the Stanley documentary. Because
Speaker 2: it wouldn't be raising Jack. So I think it's all
Speaker 2: about equity. Even now, it's still about who created it,
Speaker 2: who's getting the credit, and who is celebrated for these
Speaker 2: stories that we all love. And I think in this case,
Speaker 2: whatever deal the Kirby's made with Disney, I think this
Speaker 2: somehow goes against that deal because Neil has generally been
Speaker 2: very supportive. They were at the back Panther premiere. It
Speaker 2: seemed like Disney and the Kirby Estate were in a
Speaker 2: good place and this seems to go against whatever they
Speaker 2: agreed on.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I also think that you know, listen, we're comics
Speaker 1: nerds here. This feud and story is really not one
Speaker 1: that moves beyond the bubble of comics nerds.
Speaker 3: Hum.
Speaker 1: And I think it's absolutely believable and reasonable to me
Speaker 1: that very view if any people responsible for moving this
Speaker 1: documentary down the line from production to the platform had
Speaker 1: any awareness of the kind of heat that is behind
Speaker 1: this particular topic. X Ray Vision will be back. Quick
Speaker 1: reminder folks that we will be live streaming our fifteenth
Speaker 1: Anniversary of The Dark Knight retrospective episode on June twenty six,
Speaker 1: seven pm Pacific time. Join us. Jason and Rosie Live
Speaker 1: with guests Chase Serano and Joel Monique for one of
Speaker 1: a kind of analysis, movie lore and much more. For
Speaker 1: live stream tickets, head to cricket dot com slash x
Speaker 1: ray Live and we're back, moving on to an a topic,
Speaker 1: to another heated topic. So a Secret Invasion. We're recording
Speaker 1: this on Wednesday. Came out late Tuesday night and early
Speaker 1: Wednesday morning. It emerged that the credits sequence the opening
Speaker 1: credits for Secret Invasion were created in some form of
Speaker 1: fashion using AI. Here is a quote from Polygon quoting
Speaker 1: the director Ali Salim. This is from the article from Polygon. Quote.
Speaker 1: Like many people, Slim says he doesn't really understand how
Speaker 1: the artificial intelligence works, but was fascinated with the ways
Speaker 1: in which AI could translate the sense of foreboding he
Speaker 1: wanted for the series. The article continues. Method Studios did
Speaker 1: not respond to Polygon's requests for comment about how exactly
Speaker 1: design the sequence. The staff for the credits includes producers, designers,
Speaker 1: and an AI technician, but the company had previously worked
Speaker 1: on Marvel shows like Miss Marvel, Loki, and Moonnight. In
Speaker 1: addition to Game of Thrones, Battle the Back, Stard's Great episode,
Speaker 1: and for All Mankind seasons two and three, some more
Speaker 1: contacts from Gizmoto. While Method Studios work on those was
Speaker 1: seemingly on a more traditional side of VFX production, it
Speaker 1: was approached for Secret Invasion to instead use AI generated
Speaker 1: imagery for using the titles. Now, of course, there's a
Speaker 1: backlash in this. AI is a subject of a lot
Speaker 1: of heated debate because of the fears that it could
Speaker 1: is taking creative's jobs. I think those fears are foundered.
Speaker 1: We've talked about that on this podcast.
Speaker 2: We know it's based extensively on plagiarized art the way
Speaker 2: that they trained.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Right. And also, you know, the industry is in
Speaker 1: the midst of negotiating deals or you know of a
Speaker 1: labor action with WGA in which the role of AI
Speaker 1: and any kind of future deal plays a major role.
Speaker 1: AI was addressed in the dga's deal that it was
Speaker 1: struck with the AMPTP. So this is a heated topic
Speaker 1: and people feel very passionate about it. Rosie, what are
Speaker 1: your thoughts.
Speaker 2: I think this is a worrying development only in that
Speaker 2: it feels like the conversation that we have all been
Speaker 2: having on this podcast. This has really been less than
Speaker 2: a year of conversation, and I think part of the
Speaker 2: reason that the backlash has been so strong, even though,
Speaker 2: as you know, you've pointed out really well when we've
Speaker 2: been talking about this offline, is like, we don't know
Speaker 2: what the workflow is like, we don't know how the
Speaker 2: AI imagery was used. But I understand the backlash and
Speaker 2: I understand why people are worried because this feels like
Speaker 2: it has happened incredibly quickly from the conversation of oh
Speaker 2: AI might be used by studios.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 2: AI has been used before by Disney as a tool
Speaker 2: to dage people, like in Indiana Jones the new movie, right,
Speaker 2: but this is the first time that AI generated imagery
Speaker 2: has been used in Marvel, and it is I think
Speaker 2: another reason the backlash has been so big. It looks
Speaker 2: a lot like what we've seen when people have used AI,
Speaker 2: things like Mid Journey. The images specifically that have been
Speaker 2: coming up.
Speaker 1: It looks like pre mid Journey, I forget it. It
Speaker 1: looks like Dolly generated Dodges, which is like a generation
Speaker 1: and a half behind previous to Mid Journey.
Speaker 2: And I think that is quite alarming to people because
Speaker 2: even though we don't know exactly how it was used
Speaker 2: and whether this was some VFX art that they created
Speaker 2: themselves and then did through an AI generated whatever version
Speaker 2: it was. I think it worries people because this looks
Speaker 2: like they use something like Dahli and mid Journey, and
Speaker 2: that takes away from potentially jobs that could go to artists.
Speaker 2: And also there is a tradition I would say, I
Speaker 2: think the reason this has hit so hard as a
Speaker 2: Marvel show think about the Dead Evil credit sequence that
Speaker 2: kind of changed the game with how people saw credit
Speaker 2: sequences in Prestige TV, and I think Marvel has really
Speaker 2: been a place where people we have felt even the
Speaker 2: Sheeholt credits that were at the end of the show
Speaker 2: where it was the beautiful illustration, I think Marvel has
Speaker 2: set a precedent for artistic credit sequences that set up
Speaker 2: the tone of the show. And I think that also
Speaker 2: worries people because if the precedent is now that they're
Speaker 2: willing to use AI vendors, let's use Ali Slim's words,
Speaker 2: I think that makes people. Even people who have worked
Speaker 2: on the show in VFX have come out and said
Speaker 2: they're quite upset by this choice.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well on one person to be accurate, I think
Speaker 1: I saw.
Speaker 2: Cartoon Brew has a really good one that has like
Speaker 2: a few different people who've come out at this point
Speaker 2: and talked about their kind of disappointment in it. But
Speaker 2: it's I think it's a shame that this choice has
Speaker 2: overshadowed the show because this is the conversation about the show.
Speaker 1: Now here's where I'm at. I think that we're eventually
Speaker 1: going to get to a place listen, AI is coming, right,
Speaker 1: it's the idea is that, yeah, it's here. The idea
Speaker 1: is to place humans in a position of primacy in
Speaker 1: the work flow. If for instance, which we don't know
Speaker 1: because we don't know how this was created yet.
Speaker 2: We haven't had a comment from Method or Marvel.
Speaker 1: Yet, right, you mentioned that as used for a lot
Speaker 1: of things, particularly for daging. If Method, which is a
Speaker 1: VFX house staff by artists, if the artist said Method decide, well,
Speaker 1: you know, Marvel said they wanted something that looks like Dolly,
Speaker 1: so they decided to use some kind of AI generated
Speaker 1: imagery as like almost like a filter, you know, like
Speaker 1: the way like a plug in, And it was the
Speaker 1: human that was directing this and using it as a tool.
Speaker 1: I don't necessarily have a problem with that, and the
Speaker 1: issue of image plagiarism, even to me, is ameliorated by
Speaker 1: the fact that this is Marvel's imagery. This is Disney's imagery.
Speaker 1: It's not like you're not going out and taking somebody's
Speaker 1: drawing yeah of Nick Fury, which Marvel would own anyway,
Speaker 1: and and plugging it into the thing and saying, okay,
Speaker 1: do it in a style of some like other person. Right, Theoretically,
Speaker 1: if it's an artist making a decision to use a tool,
Speaker 1: I don't necessarily have a problem with that, because I
Speaker 1: think that that's probably the best version of where we're headed,
Speaker 1: is if creatives and on the writing side it's completely different.
Speaker 1: But on the visual side, if the visual artist decides, hey,
Speaker 1: you know what would really help here is running this
Speaker 1: through this thing and to create this effect, I don't
Speaker 1: necessarily have a problem with it. But it's worrying and
Speaker 1: some transparency, transparency, I think is the issue would be
Speaker 1: great now. The transparency on the transparency side. I also
Speaker 1: feel like, you know, what's the saying like, don't assign
Speaker 1: to malice? What can easy ability assigned to incompetence? I
Speaker 1: think that there's a world where Disney pr was not
Speaker 1: expecting to have a heated debate about AI to Wednesday Mornings,
Speaker 1: specifically around the credit sequence to Secret Evasion, And I
Speaker 1: think the kind of sloppy way that Ali Salim kind
Speaker 1: of talks about the process says to me that this
Speaker 1: being a hot button topic was on nobody's nobody thought.
Speaker 1: I agree that this would be an emotionally charged topic
Speaker 1: that they would all of a sudden have to have
Speaker 1: a very detailed statement about. And if I'm method, I'm
Speaker 1: now all of a sudden, you're looking at a situation
Speaker 1: where you have to coordinate your comments with Disney pr
Speaker 1: which was not a thing you have to expect. And
Speaker 1: in that sense, I think that there's probably a world
Speaker 1: in which the silence at this point is just the
Speaker 1: fact that they're like, oh shit, we have to figure
Speaker 1: out we have to comment on this now, and we
Speaker 1: have to figure out what it is that said. I
Speaker 1: would love to know how this was created.
Speaker 2: I think that there's been some great tweets about people
Speaker 2: just being like, we just want to know the production.
Speaker 2: We just want to know how it was produced. If,
Speaker 2: as you say, it is a tool that is being used,
Speaker 2: which is something that people have kind of been selling
Speaker 2: as one of the boons for AI for a long time,
Speaker 2: then that would actually be, like you said, the best
Speaker 2: case scenario of a studio using it. The problem is
Speaker 2: because people don't know it's and what people do know
Speaker 2: is dari a mid journey. If it's an AI generator
Speaker 2: that's been trained off of stolen art, then that worries people.
Speaker 2: If it's something where this was a job that twenty
Speaker 2: people could do and now five are doing it, that
Speaker 2: worries people. And I do think really this all comes
Speaker 2: down to the way that the director chose to speak
Speaker 2: about it, even saying things like when we approached AI vendors,
Speaker 2: that immediately makes people go, okay, well you're approaching people
Speaker 2: to use AI instead of just you know, going to
Speaker 2: a studio and saying, hey, can you make this look
Speaker 2: like it AI? But like good.
Speaker 1: He's quoted as saying he doesn't really understand how AI works,
Speaker 1: which is I think a sloppy way to comment about it.
Speaker 1: But honestly, it looks bad and it looks like it
Speaker 1: is not a thing necessarily that you should say in
Speaker 1: that way. But also it may come as a surprise
Speaker 1: to some people, like who aren't around the industry or
Speaker 1: It's very often that people involved in one field don't
Speaker 1: know how the other field works.
Speaker 2: That's the problem with the VFX issues Marvel's been having.
Speaker 2: We've had heard them say, dict just don't know how
Speaker 2: the VFX process went.
Speaker 1: Take AI out of it. Does we know how like
Speaker 1: like VFX rendered me? Probably not.
Speaker 2: Do they know how many shots that go into one
Speaker 2: action sequence? You know? And how many people you need
Speaker 2: to work on it? How much time?
Speaker 1: Now again we're wait. I'm perfectly happy to be irate
Speaker 1: about this once we get more information. I don't. I
Speaker 1: just don't think we have it yet. And I will say,
Speaker 1: as a final thing, I would much prefer that, though
Speaker 1: there are obviously going to be power dynamics within any company,
Speaker 1: any VFX company, between workers and management, et cetera, I
Speaker 1: would much rather have a company of VFX workers, artists,
Speaker 1: crafts people decide how to use AI. Then studios decide
Speaker 1: how to use AI in lieu of artists. I would
Speaker 1: rather that decision come from artists rather than studios. Now
Speaker 1: here's the thing. I'm gonna get paranoid now. Now I'm
Speaker 1: going to go full paranoia to close this.
Speaker 2: Conversation, perfect sevasion.
Speaker 1: It's appropriate it is appropriate. You know, we know a
Speaker 1: lot about how Dolly about how Mid Journey are programmed, right,
Speaker 1: they just scraped Getty other repositories of visual images DV
Speaker 1: and art right, and that art probably contained amateur, you know,
Speaker 1: depictions of copyrighted characters, which most surely Mickey Mouse, et cetera,
Speaker 1: Superman whatever. We don't quite know yet, although it's uh.
Speaker 1: Stories I have read have seemed to suggest that in
Speaker 1: what is a suspicious tell like that mid Journey and
Speaker 1: others have like avoided scraping Disney repositories account of legal
Speaker 1: big corporate repositories. It's weird to me that like Disney
Speaker 1: and other places haven't threatened to sue because their stuff
Speaker 1: is in there. And this is the same thing with
Speaker 1: the large language models, you know, like this is a
Speaker 1: this has been raised, you know, like every script that's
Speaker 1: on the internet. If you go right now and be like, oh,
Speaker 1: I want to how do they how what are the
Speaker 1: what are the shooting script for Community season one? The pilot?
Speaker 1: Look like, let me get that. That's surely without question
Speaker 1: in the large language models like chet GBT. Right now,
Speaker 1: why isn't Universal sued? Why how if your IP is
Speaker 1: being used to train this thing. Why aren't these companies
Speaker 1: being like stop it or we own.
Speaker 2: Part of this.
Speaker 1: That's the part that worries me. The charge to like
Speaker 1: involve this stuff without any of the seeming aggressive litigation
Speaker 1: that always seems to come with an infringement or an
Speaker 1: even suggestion of infringement on IP. That is the part
Speaker 1: of it that worries me, because you know, if I'm
Speaker 1: going to be completely it feels like some kind of
Speaker 1: cacid agreement that said we need to know more about
Speaker 1: this particular subject vis a vis the Secret Invasion opening credits.
Speaker 1: But it's suspicious, and I'm glad people are raising hell
Speaker 1: about it because I think it's important that the platforms
Speaker 1: and these studios understand that people are very concerned about
Speaker 1: this topic.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I totally agree. Also, very interesting. Hollywood Reporter
Speaker 2: just wrote a piece about how Samuel L. Jackson had
Speaker 2: talked about ever since you know, the prequels, he crosses
Speaker 2: out anything about his AI likeness being used in the future.
Speaker 2: So that's just kind of funny that we have this
Speaker 2: duel space, especially because let's be real, I saw Samuel
Speaker 2: Jackson's face in that AI, so I wonder how he's
Speaker 2: feeling about Secram Page.
Speaker 1: I always wondered, I mean, this is off topic. I
Speaker 1: always wondered, like how Sam's reps responded to him just
Speaker 1: being straight ripped off in the ultimate.
Speaker 2: Okay, so this is just the room, This is just
Speaker 2: the comic shop rumor. But allegedly his people just like
Speaker 2: called Marvel and were like, wtf put me in this?
Speaker 2: That was generally that's generally the rule that I've heard,
Speaker 2: because Sam Love's comics, so they thought it would be okay.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I think that is exactly what happened. Basically,
Speaker 2: that's that's one of those great comic book rumors. So yeah,
Speaker 2: wild stuff. And now there he is lead in Secret Invasion.
Speaker 1: Okay, well let's talk about Secret Invasion. We're stepping out
Speaker 1: of their locking onto the streets of Moscow the Russian
Speaker 1: Federation for the premiere of Secret Invasion, now streaming on
Speaker 1: Disney Plus. Episode one, titled Resurrection, directed by Ali Slim,
Speaker 1: written by Kyle Bradstreet and Brian Tucker, The show started
Speaker 1: Samuel L. Jackson, of course, reprising his role as Nick Fury,
Speaker 1: Ben Mendelssohn as Talos, Kingsley, Benadere as Gravic Amelia Clark
Speaker 1: as Gia, and Olivia Coleman wonderfully as Sonya Fallsworth and others.
Speaker 2: Oh, the best part of the show.
Speaker 1: Oh, there's a breath of fresh air when she arrives.
Speaker 1: But let's get it that.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: We open on the mosque in Moscow, Russian Federation. CIA
Speaker 1: agent Everett Ross, still employed despite the fact that he
Speaker 1: was betraying the agency to Wakanda, I think for the
Speaker 1: right reasons but still correct, meets with an undercover agent
Speaker 1: named Prescott. Press has a theory that several seemingly unconnected
Speaker 1: terrorist attacks around the globe are all connected and the
Speaker 1: Scrulls are behind them. The Skrulls, the theory goes, were
Speaker 1: promised a home world by Nick Fur and Carol during
Speaker 1: the events of fucking Captain Marvel. Yeah, thirty plus years
Speaker 1: ago and in the past now, and they're fucking tired
Speaker 1: of waiting. They've been eating too long, three going on
Speaker 1: four decades now, Yeah, for the home world, and so
Speaker 1: they're taking action. They're sewing unrest and chaos in the
Speaker 1: world in order to undermine governments so that they can
Speaker 1: colonize Earth. Ross points out that, hey, I saw Captain Marmora.
Speaker 1: You saw Captain w there's on like twelve scrolls.
Speaker 2: They were gell, they were friendly, they were chill.
Speaker 1: And most of them were kids. There was like not
Speaker 1: a lot of them. And Prescott says, you idiot, you fool,
Speaker 1: you fool, you ignoramus, just idiot.
Speaker 2: They can look like anyone. They you don't even know
Speaker 2: how many there can be.
Speaker 1: And meanwhile, where's Fury, Well, this is happening. Where's he?
Speaker 1: He's disappeared. Well, apparently he's on SABER, which is the
Speaker 1: name acronym yet to be defined. I'm gonna guess it's
Speaker 1: space air bomb energy something I don't know.
Speaker 2: I like that. Yeah, I'm very interested.
Speaker 1: They haven't divided yet.
Speaker 2: I don't believe they have actually acknowledged it. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: Marvel loves an outrageous acronym, as we know, so that'll
Speaker 2: be very exciting to see.
Speaker 1: So Fury's apparently on SABER, which is both a outer
Speaker 1: space defense agency which Fury is basically spearheading, and the
Speaker 1: name of the main outer space base that Fury has
Speaker 1: been chilling on low these several past years. This is
Speaker 1: obviously so they made Sword right, the Sentient Machine Research
Speaker 1: Defense Organization and so now Saber is basically what Sword
Speaker 1: was in the comics.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, That's basically how it feels.
Speaker 1: Which is focused on aliens. Everett then says, well, Fury's
Speaker 1: in space and I can't go to him with some
Speaker 1: crazy theory unless you have evidence. In Prescott's like, okay,
Speaker 1: look at this tablet. And he's got this tablet that
Speaker 1: has these hologram videos and various charts and graphs on
Speaker 1: it that apparently has Ross intrigued. And so he he's like, okay,
Speaker 1: I will take this tablet to Fury and we'll see
Speaker 1: what he says. And now Prescott is looking at Everett
Speaker 1: Ross like are you a scroll? And he takes like
Speaker 1: some rubber tubing and wraps it around everittt Ross's neck
Speaker 1: and just starts choking him the fuck out because he's like,
Speaker 1: you're a scroll and you're trying to steal my shit.
Speaker 1: Ross shoots the man dead and then goes fleeing through
Speaker 1: the dark and Russian streets, and he soon realizes that
Speaker 1: someone's following him. He's radioing for an extraction team. The
Speaker 1: chase goes across the rooftops and then Ross ends up
Speaker 1: falling to the street like three four stories down.
Speaker 2: Oh, it's really grim. It's like a brutal drop.
Speaker 1: Very very far drop. His leg's clearly shattered. Maria Hill
Speaker 1: arrives on the scene just then to find him there
Speaker 1: laying on the ground, and then Ross's pursuer runs up.
Speaker 1: She draws down on him. But guess what the pursuer
Speaker 1: is Taylor's and Ross also a scroll.
Speaker 2: Okay, this is the most important question I have for
Speaker 2: you from this episode. Yeah. Yeah, was Ross always a scroll?
Speaker 2: I don't think so from what they show us in
Speaker 2: this episode and what we learn here, I was kind
Speaker 2: of mad when this opening happened. One because it's it
Speaker 2: would be a great reveal, but two because one of
Speaker 2: my favorite things about Secret Invasion, which I talked last episode,
Speaker 2: we always talked about is the sea Wakanda and Die,
Speaker 2: which essentially establishes the idea that no scroll can get
Speaker 2: into Wakanda. Yeah, so I was like, why they was
Speaker 2: nullifying the power of Wakanda in the MCU. But then
Speaker 2: I was like, I think this is a scroll. Who
Speaker 2: to get this specific information took on the visage of Ross,
Speaker 2: which means they must have captured Ross at some point.
Speaker 1: Right they have Ross, We'll get to that.
Speaker 2: I don't think that was a scroll who was in
Speaker 2: Wakanda forever? What do you think?
Speaker 1: I don't know, but I think that is highly possible because,
Speaker 1: you know, a main plot point of almost every single
Speaker 1: scroll centric story, and certainly the two versions of Secret Evasion,
Speaker 1: which we talked about last episode mm hmm, always involves
Speaker 1: the Scrolls coming up with some way that they can
Speaker 1: no longer be detected. So in Secret Invasion one, you know,
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, Wolverine couldn't smell them, magic couldn't
Speaker 1: detect them, and Read Richards scroll detecting shit didn't work anymore.
Speaker 1: And so like everybody's like, oh shit, the scrolls have
Speaker 1: up their dame. In twenty twenty two's Secret Invasion, right
Speaker 1: at the end of the first Secret Evasion, Read Richards
Speaker 1: had come up with a updated, you know, new firmware
Speaker 1: scull detector, right that was installed in like every government
Speaker 1: base across the world, the CIA, the MI I six,
Speaker 1: everybody had these, and of course like the Avengers, Fantastic four,
Speaker 1: the X Men had these scroll detecting systems in their
Speaker 1: you know, various installations. But guess what in that story
Speaker 1: semi spoiler, the Scrolls have figured out how to not
Speaker 1: be detective by that anymore, and they have to go
Speaker 1: to like basically the method from John Carpenter's the thing
Speaker 1: in which they take the blood in like microreas. So
Speaker 1: I think it's very possible that the Scrolls have figured
Speaker 1: out how to beat Wakandans skrall detection. And it makes
Speaker 1: a lot of sense to me that it's a win
Speaker 1: for Scroll agents to get access to Wakanda and be
Speaker 1: involved with decision binging at the highest level of Wakandan government.
Speaker 2: Also, if the Scroll rebellion as it is being shown
Speaker 2: in this premiere is sick of like humans on Earth
Speaker 2: and the way they've treated the Scroll refugees, that could
Speaker 2: also explain why Everett Ross was surprisingly sympathetic and compassionate
Speaker 2: to the Wakandans when everyone was like, who's this CIA agent?
Speaker 2: Why would they care? Well, he turned on the American government,
Speaker 2: he turned on his ex wife. This could explain it.
Speaker 2: I like that, I like that, I like that reading.
Speaker 1: I'll just say it's possible. I think it's very very
Speaker 1: possible that he's been a Scroll potentially for several movies,
Speaker 1: which would be so crazy elsewhere. I guess who's back
Speaker 1: on Earth. Maybe it's Nick Fury.
Speaker 2: Well, Nick feared. Why has he been?
Speaker 1: He's been in Saber, he's been in space. A drop
Speaker 1: ship lands in Russia and Nick Fury gets off. His
Speaker 1: knee is a little balky. He's dressed very shabbily, I
Speaker 1: think purposefully shabbily. He loves to do this when he
Speaker 1: goes on the run, where a watchman's cap and like
Speaker 1: a bedraggled like car coat, and he looks a little older.
Speaker 1: And that's gonna be a major theme of this episode
Speaker 1: and probably this series is has Nick lost his fastball?
Speaker 1: Has Nick lost it? Nick goes to meet Taylors. We
Speaker 1: learn that Taylos's partner Soren, has died off screen sometime
Speaker 1: previous to this story.
Speaker 2: As you do when you're a wife in the MCU
Speaker 2: or in any Superherer story.
Speaker 1: As you do when you're a wife in the MCU,
Speaker 1: and as you do when you're an actor that somehow
Speaker 1: didn't sign the five six, seven, eight nine picture deal
Speaker 1: because they didn't think they need you, which is probably
Speaker 1: what happened. Sorry to that son, Sorry to that soorin so,
Speaker 1: Nick is like, I'm so sorry about Soren, And you
Speaker 1: know how are you. And Taylors says that Soren was
Speaker 1: apparently worried around the time of her death about a
Speaker 1: thing that's happening right now, which is the rise of
Speaker 1: scrull nationalism Scroll nationalist extremists who are like, hey, I'm
Speaker 1: tired of Nick Feured dragging his feet for thirty five
Speaker 1: years for us to get home world, and we're looking
Speaker 1: to create something for ourselves right now. And the skull
Speaker 1: nationalist is named Gravic, and apparently Nick Fury has some
Speaker 1: history with Gravic, and of course Taylis does too. Apparently
Speaker 1: Taylos's daughter Jia is part of Gravic's cause now, and
Speaker 1: Taylos himself was kicked off the Scroll governing Council and
Speaker 1: Gravic took his place, and his message is really resonating
Speaker 1: with these disaffected Scroll youths who you know were born
Speaker 1: during this time or shortly before the time of the
Speaker 1: alliance with humans. And apparently Gravic is set up these
Speaker 1: kind of like mini Scroll bases slash colonies in Russia,
Speaker 1: because Russia has all of these decommissioned nuclear power plants
Speaker 1: that are just like teeming with radiation. Think Chernobyl and
Speaker 1: scrolls have no problem with that kind of radiation. They
Speaker 1: just happily live there.
Speaker 2: For those who are going to be looking for who's
Speaker 2: a scroll? I feel like this feels like a good
Speaker 2: test of like if you want to know who a
Speaker 2: scroll is going to be in this world. Sadly, I
Speaker 2: don't think we're going to get my pickle and strawberry
Speaker 2: tell I was hoping for. This does not seem like
Speaker 2: the comedic space for that. But I do think if
Speaker 2: in future episodes of this sixth episode series, if you
Speaker 2: see somebody who's chill with some radiation, who's a human
Speaker 2: or doesn't seem to be wearing a mask or is
Speaker 2: setting off a little Geiger counter or whatever, you're probably
Speaker 2: looking at a scroll. I think this feels very much
Speaker 2: like they're foreshadowing the importance of the idea that scrolls
Speaker 2: are not impacted by radiation.
Speaker 1: You ready for this? Elena? Oh, everybody from Russia. As
Speaker 1: far as I am concerned, right now, Major Jor's suspect
Speaker 1: from being a scroll. I'm talking Natasha, I'm talking every
Speaker 1: I'm talking her old family.
Speaker 2: We never saw her hit the ground when she drummed
Speaker 2: a format.
Speaker 1: We never saw it.
Speaker 2: The gun I did serious though all of them.
Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, the whole Red God that just scrawls,
Speaker 4: the Green God, we need to think about it.
Speaker 2: I would love to see Elena come back. So I'm
Speaker 2: saying I like this as like the unexpectedify like everyone
Speaker 2: who's Russian is a scrawl.
Speaker 1: Now, Okay, So Prescott's intel was about what Gravih's plan is,
Speaker 1: and apparently his plan is to foment a war between
Speaker 1: the US and Russia by setting off dirty bombs, which
Speaker 1: will then be blamed I guess on the US and
Speaker 1: long term, Gravi wants to make the planet uninhabitable for humans.
Speaker 1: Radiation would certainly do the trick, and then guess what
Speaker 1: baby scrolls are riding high? We cut to Washington, d C.
Speaker 1: Where James Roady Rhodes out of his suit, walking quite
Speaker 1: well without any kind of seeming lasting effects.
Speaker 2: Doesn't have his cool suit anymore or anything.
Speaker 1: Is now an undefined high ranking member of it seems
Speaker 1: like the Defense Department. He might be the National Security advisor.
Speaker 2: He's walking for the President, who I'm gonna say is
Speaker 2: definitely a scroll. Listen, just want to put out them
Speaker 2: like I'm like one hundred percent short, dumb at mulroney,
Speaker 2: one of my all time favorite actors.
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure you're a Scarborough just putting out that.
Speaker 1: So he's like, he updates the President Dermot mulroney, President
Speaker 1: Mulroney that Nick Fury is a wall from Saber. Nick
Speaker 1: Fury was not allowed to leave Saber the base and
Speaker 1: he has left, and more worryingly, right before he left,
Speaker 1: he got an encrypted message from his old, oh pal
Speaker 1: fucking collaborator, Maria Hill. You can't trust those two together,
Speaker 1: and who knows what they're up to, and so Potus
Speaker 1: is just like, deal with it. That's all he says,
Speaker 1: is deal with it.
Speaker 2: This is another question I have off this episode, right,
Speaker 2: So like, yeah, poor old Nick Fury, ann Marie Hill.
Speaker 2: So these two us still working for the American government
Speaker 2: off the Shield was revealed to be Nazis for like
Speaker 2: sixty years.
Speaker 1: Seems like a major failure.
Speaker 2: Seems like a failure. I'm like, bro, Saber, Sam, I
Speaker 2: felt like Nick kind of set that up with the scrolls,
Speaker 2: like it was his own thing, like he'd learn his lesson.
Speaker 2: And now I'm like, the President's in charge of this.
Speaker 2: This seems like a mistake.
Speaker 1: Doesn't that track isn't that one of the most realistic
Speaker 1: things about about the MCU.
Speaker 4: This tracks so much because you're right, because they fell
Speaker 4: for it with Shield in the Nazis and now they
Speaker 4: fell for it with Saber and the Scroll, so you're right.
Speaker 4: Actually one hundred percent makes sense, great storytelling, great foreshadowing.
Speaker 1: Back in Russia, Fury is just out for a walk.
Speaker 1: Taylor's is like, you're a black guy in Moscow at night.
Speaker 1: Like's gonna be looking at you, noticing you, and he's like,
Speaker 1: don't worry about it, don't do it. Clearly Fury is
Speaker 1: looking to provoke a reaction. He gets it. He's scooped
Speaker 1: up by some black ops team and he's taken to
Speaker 1: meet Sonya and m I six big Shot, who is
Speaker 1: also trying to quash the Nascent Scroll rebellion. As Sonya,
Speaker 1: of course, as we mentioned, played by Olivia Coleman, and
Speaker 1: it's like a ray of sunshine. As soon as she
Speaker 1: arrives in the show, it's like what.
Speaker 2: If Mary Poppins was a nightmarish spy master. She brings
Speaker 2: the energy wonderful that she had in Peep Show. Somehow,
Speaker 2: it's just it's so good for me. This was the
Speaker 2: moment that the show like lit. I want to see
Speaker 2: her and Sam together are so brilliant, Like I almost
Speaker 2: want this to be a two hander that focuses on them,
Speaker 2: and I hope we get more because it just doesn't
Speaker 2: change the tone. The show is inherently grim and gritty.
Speaker 2: That's just where we're at, and I'm accepting it because
Speaker 2: the original Secret Invasion comic was so bombastic and silly
Speaker 2: and out there, and I know that's not what we're getting.
Speaker 2: But this moment brings so much light and fun and
Speaker 2: their banter and their chemistry. I definitely felt I was like,
Speaker 2: is this gonna be that relationship that Nick has in
Speaker 2: his past, because obviously in the comics that's Valentina, you know,
Speaker 2: and they changed that here and made her ever At
Speaker 2: Cross's ex wife, So I was like, maybe these two
Speaker 2: are that weird like Spymaster Romance. I just thought they
Speaker 2: were so good together, and she is. She's this great mix.
Speaker 1: Of like, yeah, she's fantastic.
Speaker 2: Would make you a cup of tea, but it definitely
Speaker 2: has arsenic in it, but you'd still want to drink
Speaker 2: the tea. Like it's this cozy cruelty, this Mary Poppins
Speaker 2: Hannibal Lecter. I don't know she was just I love
Speaker 2: her so much in everything, but she is so good.
Speaker 1: This episode and potentially this series seems very influenced by
Speaker 1: the First Mission Impossible movie. Yes, and you know, Olivia
Speaker 1: Coleman Sonya reminds me so much of Max, the kind
Speaker 1: of like independent.
Speaker 2: Oh that's a really good call.
Speaker 1: Intelligence broker that is like constantly flirting and charming and
Speaker 1: cajoling everybody around her in this wonderful, like light touch
Speaker 1: way that kind of belies the seriousness of what she's doing.
Speaker 1: And that's kind of Olivia Coleman move here, and it's
Speaker 1: wonderful man.
Speaker 2: First Mission Impossible movie, What a movie. Brian de Palmer
Speaker 2: loved that movie.
Speaker 1: Wonderful movie. And a lot of the kind of looks
Speaker 1: and paranoia engines that are used here. The way Nick
Speaker 1: notices people staring at him on the street, a romantic
Speaker 1: couple m you know, the woman they're kissing, but then
Speaker 1: the woman like looks at him out of the corner
Speaker 1: of her eye, and it just all of these moves
Speaker 1: are straight out of Mission Impossible one.
Speaker 2: That's such a brilliant call as well, because what does
Speaker 2: Mission Impossible have that's such a key part of that
Speaker 2: first film, and then takes on that technology. Is that
Speaker 2: technology where you can wear a ma that changes your face.
Speaker 3: The mask the masks, maybe right, and that is essentially scrolls,
Speaker 3: because the scrolls can change whoever they are, and that
Speaker 3: is more what we're seeing here is the Scrolls almost
Speaker 3: using it as like a mister Smith esque matrix technology,
Speaker 3: where it doesn't work that way.
Speaker 2: They still have to kidnap the humans. But yeah, they're
Speaker 2: not necessarily instilled in that deep cover way that we
Speaker 2: expected them to be from the comics. This seems a
Speaker 2: little bit more like a newer invention, a newer idea
Speaker 2: that they're doing. And it is kind of that mask,
Speaker 2: you know, it's just when you need it. But yeah,
Speaker 2: she's so good.
Speaker 1: So Nick wants to know if Sonya knows anything about
Speaker 1: this raid in cozakh Stan in which nuclear material was stolen,
Speaker 1: and she says she doesn't know anything about it, and
Speaker 1: she also says, very pointedly, one hinting at Nick's previous
Speaker 1: relationship with Gravic, that she thinks that Nick is in
Speaker 1: part responsible for Gravits rise, and furthermore, she thinks that
Speaker 1: Nick shouldn't be involved in this look at you. You're limping,
Speaker 1: you can barely walk around. You're older, you've been in space,
Speaker 1: you lost a step. You don't know what's going on.
Speaker 2: Everyone's saying that to Nick in this story. He's tie it,
Speaker 2: and that will telling him you at to tie it.
Speaker 2: You're not up to this, and they might be right.
Speaker 2: They might be right.
Speaker 1: Nick is like, okay, fine, well listen. If you hear anything,
Speaker 1: let me know. I'm going for a walk again. We
Speaker 1: go to somewhere in the forest, you know, probably like
Speaker 1: around a nuclear power plant. Just guessing, just guessing, scrolling
Speaker 1: human form walks up to the gates. He's looking for
Speaker 1: quote home in my own skin, which is like the
Speaker 1: pass code, right yea passphrase for Gravis organization. And he
Speaker 1: is met bybe Gia Taylos's daughter, who welcomes him to
Speaker 1: New Scrollos. And she's got great news for this scroll,
Speaker 1: whose name is Beato. Everything here in New Scrollos is
Speaker 1: like one hundred percent by scrolls. Four scrolls. We got
Speaker 1: scroll produce, natural scroll, we got scroll wine, we got
Speaker 1: scroll drinks.
Speaker 2: Here's a weird scroll fruit. Enjoy it.
Speaker 1: All the stuff you loved as a natural born scroll
Speaker 1: growing up. You can enjoy once again. And as you mentioned,
Speaker 1: like look in the glove box and there's like this
Speaker 1: big scrull like egg blands that Beto just bites into
Speaker 1: and is obviously so delighted to be at.
Speaker 2: It's like Neon blue. It looks terrible, but he loves it.
Speaker 1: He loves it. We learned that there's about five hundred
Speaker 1: scrolls living here right now, and it certainly looks very
Speaker 1: populated than they look to be of all ages, their
Speaker 1: adults kids. Geo then recruits Beido basically to work as
Speaker 1: an agent for Gravic to work in the field. A
Speaker 1: warrior they call them, and warriors. The thing with warriors
Speaker 1: is they have to stay in human forms so that
Speaker 1: they can more effectively pass as human and we learned
Speaker 1: that they call these human formed shells, and the shells
Speaker 1: required by horrifically kidnapping people. The scroll then gets the
Speaker 1: physical attributes and then immediately transforms. The memories of the
Speaker 1: person are then extracted using some kind of skull technology
Speaker 1: and implanted in the scroll so they know all the
Speaker 1: things that the person knows, and then the person is
Speaker 1: kept in this kind of horrific stasis prison where we
Speaker 1: would imagine that Everett Ross is somewhere in this prison.
Speaker 2: Yes, more than likely. And it's a very interesting an
Speaker 2: hilarious reveal because it's like, oh, they stay in human form.
Speaker 2: It's including Amelia Clarke. Of course she does. That's Emilia Clark.
Speaker 2: You want how to be in her for you want
Speaker 2: how to look like that.
Speaker 1: We paid a lot of money for Amelia Clark.
Speaker 2: But yeah, this is very interesting. We meet some other scrolls.
Speaker 2: If you are a fan of the Secret Invasion comic books,
Speaker 2: you may have been like, oh, Pagan, that's a big deal.
Speaker 2: That's like the biggest you know, character that we've met
Speaker 2: so far from the comics and the comics. He's Queen
Speaker 2: Varanke's lover and also most famously, he was Elektra for
Speaker 2: a very long time in the Marvel universe, a very
Speaker 2: fucking long time.
Speaker 1: Have very long time since maybe nineteen eighty two, eighty three.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like I'm saying, look in my brain, my brain's
Speaker 2: immediately like, whoa Pagan. He replaced the Elektra and he
Speaker 2: was ultimately killed by Echo Myolopez. So you know, maybe
Speaker 2: he's gonna become Electra and then he's gonna be in
Speaker 2: the Dead Devil Show. And then you know, Myelopas is
Speaker 2: gonna kill him. That is what my theory brain says.
Speaker 2: I'm just gonna tell you that's not gonna happen. That
Speaker 2: is not a we were right. Yeah, this is pagan,
Speaker 2: you know. I think he's played by Killian Scott. I
Speaker 2: think he's gonna be a more grounded kind of Henchy
Speaker 2: For Gravic, we've had no inklings of Varanki yet, but
Speaker 2: it will be interesting to see where it goes. And
Speaker 2: it's fun to see them do that thing they've started
Speaker 2: to do in the MCU TV more where they put
Speaker 2: in a name there that makes you think it could
Speaker 2: be something. But that was a fun one. So yeah, Gravic,
Speaker 2: he's been busy.
Speaker 1: He's been very very busy.
Speaker 2: This is a very big setup he has going, and
Speaker 2: they're not treating humans particularly well.
Speaker 1: No, it's very very scary. Back at the safe house,
Speaker 1: Taylor's Hill and Fury watch a video feed from a
Speaker 1: bug that Fury very smartly planted in Sonya's office, and
Speaker 1: they watch her just ripping an underling two absolute fucking
Speaker 1: shreds for not being up to snuff on various things
Speaker 1: that she's asking for. And through this proloined conversation, they
Speaker 1: learn that there is this chech and rebel named Vasilli,
Speaker 1: who Sonya thinks is probably the best bet for the
Speaker 1: person the Scrolls are using to acquire the bombs, the
Speaker 1: bomb material, and to assemble the bombs that they want
Speaker 1: to use in their mission. So Fury is like, great,
Speaker 1: we have a target. Let's go after Verssilli. Fury wants
Speaker 1: to find Gravic before Sonya's people do, and he thinks
Speaker 1: is very important. He stresses as Taylos because listen, here's
Speaker 1: the difference between me and Sonya. I love cooperating. One
Speaker 1: of the cool things about the Tailos Fury relationship is
Speaker 1: you can really tell that they are close.
Speaker 2: It feels like they've been friends for that years.
Speaker 1: It does there's a real, like deep emotional bond.
Speaker 2: Mendelssohn and Jackson sell it.
Speaker 1: They sell it really well. But Sonya, on the other hand,
Speaker 1: she just has no personal connections with scrolls and she
Speaker 1: would personally like to see all scrolls off of Earth gone.
Speaker 1: And you get the inkling that she's not really that
Speaker 1: picky about how we do it, like she just wants
Speaker 1: them gone. So it's very important that they find Gravic.
Speaker 1: Nick stresses, because we're gonna want to smooth things over
Speaker 1: with the scrolls that we can bring back onto our side.
Speaker 1: So news that Fury is on Earth reaches Gravic. Gravic
Speaker 1: is semi concerned. Gia is then sent to make the
Speaker 1: deal with Vassili for the bomb. She finds Vassili at
Speaker 1: his art studio. The deal walks away. At the bomb,
Speaker 1: Fury and Taylos are just a few minutes late. They
Speaker 1: do a bad cop bad cop in which Nick Fury
Speaker 1: threatens to like shoot all of Vasily's belongings, and Taylo's
Speaker 1: just decides, well, I'm going to kick the shit out
Speaker 1: of you. But fucking surprise, Vasily is a scroll also, uh,
Speaker 1: And they really have it out, with Taylo's telling Nick
Speaker 1: you can't get involved, don't get involved. Let me deal
Speaker 1: with this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, just let me deal with it.
Speaker 1: Let me do it. But then Taylos is kind of
Speaker 1: getting his ass kicked, and so Nick has to shoot
Speaker 1: the scroll that was pretending to be Vassilly and Taylo's
Speaker 1: who's clearly dealing with a lot of complex emotions about
Speaker 1: betraying his people and collaborating with humans and the fact
Speaker 1: that his family's been torn apart by this, his wife's
Speaker 1: been murdered, and now here he is fighting a scroll
Speaker 1: who maybe he was saying, don't get involved so that
Speaker 1: he could take the scroll in alive, and now the
Speaker 1: scroll has been murdered by a human while he was there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it feels definitely to me like they're setting up
Speaker 2: a potential conflict or split here with the loyalty between
Speaker 2: Telos and the feelings he has towards Nick, but also
Speaker 2: his relationship with his daughter and that moment where he's
Speaker 2: devastated that Nick Fury shot this scroll and killed him.
Speaker 2: That feels like it could be a crack that may
Speaker 2: turn into a chasm. Obviously, what Graphic is doing is
Speaker 2: horrific and needs to be stopped, but you would imagine
Speaker 2: that there's no way it feels good for Tailos to
Speaker 2: have his native people tell him that he has sold
Speaker 2: them out. Yeah, and also as well, I think this
Speaker 2: was always going to be a problem that came with
Speaker 2: the representation that they chose to do of the scrolls,
Speaker 2: which in Captain Marvel was this idea that they were
Speaker 2: these kind of like peaceful refugees. In the Marvel comics,
Speaker 2: they are generally like your go to bad villains, who
Speaker 2: aren't you know, human.
Speaker 1: Nazis an empire. Yeah, they're an empire.
Speaker 2: And there are obviously people within the Scroll Empire who
Speaker 2: are good people. It's a complex, nuanced thing. But to
Speaker 2: introduce them as essentially refugees of a war and then
Speaker 2: in now have to establish the idea that some of
Speaker 2: those refugees are terrorists. This was always going to be
Speaker 2: a hard play, I think, and it's going to be
Speaker 2: interesting to see how they build it out. Obviously they're
Speaker 2: lucky because Kingsley Benneddet is like an incredibly talented actor,
Speaker 2: so I'm sure Gravic is going to bring a lot
Speaker 2: of gravitass to this role. But yeah, I always think
Speaker 2: that was going to be a hard thing to sell,
Speaker 2: and the route that they're going is definitely the more
Speaker 2: serious and complex take on.
Speaker 1: It, which I like. So I should mention that while
Speaker 1: Nick and Tailos were going to see Vasilly Hill was
Speaker 1: out in the car and she happens to see Geo
Speaker 1: walking past, so she follows down to a tunnel and
Speaker 1: the two fight, but Scrolls are way stronger than humans,
Speaker 1: so he'll kind of get her clock cleaned and goes
Speaker 1: on the run, with Taylos following right behind. The father
Speaker 1: and daughter confront each other. Gia doesn't want to hand
Speaker 1: over the bomb. Taylos is like, well, this is a
Speaker 1: really weird way to tell you this, but I have
Speaker 1: some news. Your mother is dead. Her last words were fine, Gia,
Speaker 1: which is again a crazy way to learn that your
Speaker 1: mom died. And then Taylos is like, can we just
Speaker 1: like talk and Gia rebuffs him and she goes on
Speaker 1: the run. Fury goes to a bar where he meets
Speaker 1: Hill and they finally have a talk that they should
Speaker 1: have had probably two days prior, where she gets to
Speaker 1: ask him, you know, why did you leave Saber and
Speaker 1: he's like, well, one, you called me, and two because
Speaker 1: I was having a crisis of faith and that crisis
Speaker 1: of faith carried over to my work at Saber. And
Speaker 1: then he clearly feels a responsibility to the Scrolls and
Speaker 1: to Taylos, and his inability to follow through in a
Speaker 1: homeland for them is kind of a major factor in
Speaker 1: what's going on right now in a really significant way.
Speaker 1: And he'll says, well, listen, I only called you because
Speaker 1: Taylos wanted Jesus.
Speaker 2: I didn't want you here.
Speaker 1: I didn't want you here because guess what, you're not
Speaker 1: ready for this, Fury, you were never the same after
Speaker 1: the blip, she says, agreeing though she doesn't know it
Speaker 1: with Sonya, and again you have to wonder if she's right.
Speaker 1: We then see Fury late at night, like reliving the
Speaker 1: moment of the blip, his hand turning to ash, eventually
Speaker 1: his whole body turning to ash as he drifts away.
Speaker 2: I'm very interested in this, actually, Taylos. You know he
Speaker 2: keeps telling Fury, you disappeared, You disappeared. You know you
Speaker 2: would never say so does Maria Hill. She knows he
Speaker 2: got blipped, right, so he was gone for five years
Speaker 2: then and then he went up to say, but I
Speaker 2: feel like people are not really like giving Nick Altt
Speaker 2: like enough credit for the fact, you know, he was blipped,
Speaker 2: and then like you know, the wild was saved and
Speaker 2: everyone got unblipped, and then he's up in space trying
Speaker 2: to protect everyone's like, where have you been? Is that?
Speaker 2: Where was half the world? They got blipped? And now
Speaker 2: he's up in space.
Speaker 1: I kind of perceived this as, yes, of course Nick
Speaker 1: got blipped, but the fact that as soon as you
Speaker 1: got snapped, you then left Earth to go to space.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, like we needed you here when yeah.
Speaker 1: We needed you. And clearly the suggestion is what Hill
Speaker 1: is kind of like and what Sonya is kind of
Speaker 1: beating on the bush with is you were heavily traumatized
Speaker 1: by the blip. Obviously you didn't know anything when you
Speaker 1: were blipped, but when you came back and the gravity
Speaker 1: of what had occurred hit you. It's probably still hitting you.
Speaker 1: You're probably still processing it, and you need to deal
Speaker 1: with it because it's heavily affecting your ability to do
Speaker 1: the job that you're trying to do. Yeah, And I
Speaker 1: think that's what everybody's basically saying to him, is like,
Speaker 1: we want to help you, we're your friends. You went
Speaker 1: to fucking space. How are we supposed to help you?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Like where were you? Yeah? No, that's a good
Speaker 2: cal I also won I feel like this there's a
Speaker 2: lot of weight being put on this idea that he's
Speaker 2: not the same he's not got the same strength. I
Speaker 2: wonder how much of that is going to play into
Speaker 2: a change that is more significant. I don't think that
Speaker 2: he is a scroll. I don't think he's one of
Speaker 2: those cases. I don't think it's anything like that. But
Speaker 2: you know, Nick Fury's very old in the comics, he's
Speaker 2: essentially immortal. Here he looks much older. I wonder if
Speaker 2: there is some kind of connection here to him aging faster,
Speaker 2: or being ill, or actually, you know, the blip affecting
Speaker 2: him in a more permanent way than it did other people.
Speaker 2: I'll be very interested to see. Obviously, the biggest impact
Speaker 2: this is going to have as this series goes on
Speaker 2: is going to be Nick Fury showing everyone that he
Speaker 2: is in fact back ye like John Wick and they're
Speaker 2: all wrong. That's clearly the route they're going. But yeah,
Speaker 2: I found that. I was like, please give this man
Speaker 2: a break. I was like, do you know how hard
Speaker 2: the blip was? Pretty hardcore man.
Speaker 1: I will say that I find myself with regards to
Speaker 1: the way this episode ends. Yes on rewatch like looking
Speaker 1: for clues that Nick's playing possum. They're doing a really
Speaker 1: good job of selling Nick being older, potentially over the hill,
Speaker 1: traumatized by the events of the blip, not on his
Speaker 1: a game. But it's hard to escape because this is
Speaker 1: Nick Fury. It is hard to escape the idea that,
Speaker 1: of course Nick wants his enemies, thinking that he doesn't have.
Speaker 2: It to think that, right, and he's just come back
Speaker 2: from space. Suddenly he's got a limp. He's looking a
Speaker 2: little bit rough and tumble.
Speaker 1: He really played up the limbs.
Speaker 2: Oh oh my knee. Yeah he's playing it. Yeah, oh
Speaker 2: exactly like. I think you're right. I think it's at
Speaker 2: least partially a play, especially because he doesn't really fight
Speaker 2: back when these women in his life are saying that
Speaker 2: to him.
Speaker 1: Gia brings the bomb to Gravic's people and they're like,
Speaker 1: great job. She tells them that hey, just so you know,
Speaker 1: human security forces know about us because someone tried to
Speaker 1: intercept me. But then, very interestingly, she lies and says,
Speaker 1: I don't know who it was. I didn't recognize the person,
Speaker 1: but of course it was Maria Hill and her dad. Later,
Speaker 1: Gia secretly meets with her dad. He finally tells her,
Speaker 1: shock of shocks, that it was Gravic who killed her
Speaker 1: mom off screen, and she tells him in return that
Speaker 1: guess what that big bombing is happening tomorrow. There's three
Speaker 1: devices and Gravic knows you're onto him. There'll be like
Speaker 1: one hundred scrull agents around. It's gonna happen in a park,
Speaker 1: and I'll mark the bombs with this infrared spray so
Speaker 1: you can see it. They set up the sting operation
Speaker 1: in the park with Hill, Fury and Taylors watching Gia.
Speaker 1: Who knows how many Scrull agents are all around. Immediately
Speaker 1: things get mixed up and the bombs are now heading
Speaker 1: in various directions, carried by various people. Everybody splits up Fury.
Speaker 1: We mentioned how when Fury was on his walk right
Speaker 1: he ran into like all these different people who were
Speaker 1: different levels of suspicious, and one of them was this girl,
Speaker 1: this very colorful outfit with this beautiful rainbow colored ball
Speaker 1: that kind of like stumbled into his path and then
Speaker 1: moves away. He sees that girl again and he knows scroll.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it seems like the implication here, which would
Speaker 2: be a big change, but I think is something we'd
Speaker 2: guessed before. It kind of seems like the implication is
Speaker 2: she is gravit, and gravit can maybe change between bodies. Yeah,
Speaker 2: Because it kind of seems like Nick is following one
Speaker 2: person and as he follows them, the girl disappears and
Speaker 2: then it's a man, and then the next person is
Speaker 2: a woman. Now he is always someone else walks in front,
Speaker 2: so there's a chance it could be a trick of
Speaker 2: kind of the light or like a trick of perception.
Speaker 2: But my read here was like, this is the same girl.
Speaker 2: The scrolls are on t him, and potentially that could
Speaker 2: be Gravic, who has this kind of ability we haven't
Speaker 2: seen before with scrolls.
Speaker 1: I thought that as well. And you know, as we've
Speaker 1: talked about in previous episodes, I think the super scrolls
Speaker 1: are gonna be introduced here. I think we're gonna.
Speaker 2: Get I do. They'll just do a different way.
Speaker 1: They'll do it a different way. I think we'll get
Speaker 1: scrolls that can be multiple forms of things at once.
Speaker 2: Mm hmm.
Speaker 1: Okay, So the scrolls are clearly onto this counterintelligence sting.
Speaker 1: Hill discovers the backpack she was following was empty, and
Speaker 1: things just happened really quickly. After that, Fury sees Gravic
Speaker 1: trigger the bombs. They go off. There's huge chaos in
Speaker 1: this park. A scroll disguised as Nick Fury shoots Hill
Speaker 1: and she very potentially dies in his arms, and the
Speaker 1: real Nick Fury, having no other option, flees, and that
Speaker 1: is how the episode ends. Is Hill dead. She's done
Speaker 1: this before, by the way, playing dead.
Speaker 2: I think if she is dead, it's a big mistake
Speaker 2: on the MCU's pot. I don't think it will land
Speaker 2: very well. I would say it also would It makes
Speaker 2: sense she's quite a major player in different ways in
Speaker 2: the twenty twenty two Secret Invasion and the original Secret Invasion.
Speaker 2: But knowing the MCU, I think back to the treatment
Speaker 2: of Black Widow, a character I wasn't even particularly that
Speaker 2: fond of in the famous Marvel event movie Avengers Endgame.
Speaker 2: I think she's probably dead. I think this is a
Speaker 2: classic case of fridging.
Speaker 1: You think she's dead.
Speaker 2: That's my feeling. You give Nick a very important reason
Speaker 2: to keep fighting. And also, if I'm not mistaken, I
Speaker 2: believe that the scroll kind of proving our point here,
Speaker 2: or at least introducing a new path. I believe it's
Speaker 2: Gravic who is disguised as Nick Fury and shoots Maria,
Speaker 2: which again adds another reason for Nick Fury to have
Speaker 2: conflict with Gravic. Plus, that is a scroll power that
Speaker 2: we have yet to understand, because Nick Fury has not
Speaker 2: been taken and hidden in their little magic pods. So
Speaker 2: that's a powerful.
Speaker 1: Choice, right. I think she's alive. I think this is
Speaker 1: a classic reverse Winter Soldier Nick Fury move.
Speaker 2: Ooh, like an LMDC situation.
Speaker 1: You know, when he's like in Steve's apartment and gets
Speaker 1: shot and then dies in air quotes. I think we're
Speaker 1: just I think it's just another one of these where
Speaker 1: Hill is now the one pretending to be dead, so
Speaker 1: that the scrolls can think that they are on the
Speaker 1: front foot.
Speaker 2: And then they think Nick is alone. Oh that's pretty good.
Speaker 2: That's a long game plan. I like it.
Speaker 1: This is just looking at Nick Fury's history. It would
Speaker 1: not surprise me at all that.
Speaker 2: Would be from the Nick Fury playbook.
Speaker 1: Any other scroll predictions. Now that we've seen again, I
Speaker 1: will go on record as saying I think everybody based
Speaker 1: in Russia for any period of time needs to be
Speaker 1: looked at as a potential scroll. Yolena, I'm looking at you.
Speaker 2: Okay. In that case, let's talk about the one that
Speaker 2: could be their big reveal. Bucky always a scroll.
Speaker 1: I would love it.
Speaker 2: Well, you know what else as well? So that one
Speaker 2: of my favorite things about Sucre invasion. There are some
Speaker 2: scroll who are scrolls for so long they forgot that
Speaker 2: they actually start to believe that they are that person.
Speaker 2: That could play into the relationship he had with Steve,
Speaker 2: that could all be real. That would be very cool,
Speaker 2: that play into your Russia theory. I think this is
Speaker 2: gonna play more heavily into that twenty twenty two Secret
Speaker 2: Invasion mini series you were talking about.
Speaker 1: I think the President is surely a scroll.
Speaker 2: I think this is gonna be people in high placements.
Speaker 2: I think, you know, maybe maybe Rody I guess because
Speaker 2: he is up there as well in that space. But
Speaker 2: I think that it's gonna be more like that. I
Speaker 2: don't think we're gonna get any of those bigger reveals.
Speaker 2: I sadly don't think Hawkeye is a scroll, which has
Speaker 2: been my ten year theory that I've been arguing at
Speaker 2: every website I write at. But my big theory that
Speaker 2: I do think. So we get a really cool thing
Speaker 2: right this episode, which is no eyepatch for Nick Fury.
Speaker 2: I love it. It's great aesthetic, it's very cool, but to me,
Speaker 2: it feels very important. And when he puts the little
Speaker 2: buzz in Sonya's room, he puts it on the same eye.
Speaker 2: It's the left eye of the owl, the left eye
Speaker 2: of his eye in the comics. Sorry to everyone who
Speaker 2: listens to this podcast, because I always talk about him.
Speaker 2: Three D Man has the glasses he can see who's
Speaker 2: a scroll. I think the more grounded version of that
Speaker 2: that we're gonna get is Samuel L. Jackson's eye that was,
Speaker 2: you know, scratched by a flirkin. I think that's gonna
Speaker 2: give him the ability at some point to see scrolls
Speaker 2: or sense them. It's not gonna be crazy, it's not
Speaker 2: gonna be three D Man, but there's something about this
Speaker 2: left eye being able to see it. I think he
Speaker 2: is essentially going to take on that role as the
Speaker 2: person who can find a way train himself or activate
Speaker 2: something with him so he can sense who the scrolls are,
Speaker 2: and he will essentially then be that lone voice of
Speaker 2: reason that nobody else believes, the paranoid but right conspiracy theorist. Yeah,
Speaker 2: very interesting.
Speaker 1: Now in Captain America Winter Soldier right the end, the
Speaker 1: climax of that film h in part on Natasha's use
Speaker 1: of really really high tech like facial scrambling technology that
Speaker 1: allowed her to.
Speaker 2: Yes, see, I see it's very famous Jenny Agata face mask.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that allowed her to pose as a member of
Speaker 1: the council, So we know that humans have this similar technology. Hmmm,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna get crazy for one second.
Speaker 2: I want to hear it.
Speaker 1: Nick Fury no eyepatch and limping, who has a leg
Speaker 1: injury famously in the MCU leg braces for a period
Speaker 1: of time, although it didn't seem oh oh, what if
Speaker 1: they are flipped?
Speaker 2: What if roady Sam?
Speaker 1: Yeah, Nick is pretending to be roady and.
Speaker 2: I would love to see it. I love that. I
Speaker 2: think that could be so cool. Also, you make a
Speaker 2: great point. If that technology is not in this mini series,
Speaker 2: I will eat my hand. It's gonna be the human.
Speaker 2: That's the human way of mixing and messing up the
Speaker 2: scrolls the way that they do to us. That's such
Speaker 2: a great call. God, I would love that. That's my
Speaker 2: I'm into it now. That's that's my head canin.
Speaker 1: I can't wait to see what happens next. Will be
Speaker 1: following this series as progresses up Next nerd Out.
Speaker 2: Warning, The following nerd Out contains big spoilers, big, big,
Speaker 2: big spoilers for the season two finale of Yellow Jackets.
Speaker 2: Be warned in today's nerd Out, where you tell us
Speaker 2: what you love them. Why a theory you're excited to share,
Speaker 2: or a quick question that we can answer. Cody offers
Speaker 2: a rebuttal. I would say Cody adds support to Coach
Speaker 2: Ben's actions from The Yellow Jacket season two for.
Speaker 1: Do you want to read it? You should read it? Yeah.
Speaker 2: Loving all the deep dives this year, I have to
Speaker 2: say I think Coach Ben made the smart move burning
Speaker 2: down camp Yellowjacket. That is a controversial take, Cody, but
Speaker 2: I'm here for it. Let's listen to begin. He should
Speaker 2: should he have reinforced the doors better and locked them inside? Yes,
Speaker 2: I agree, if you're gonna do it, don't let them escape.
Speaker 2: But he can't just go up with a hammer and
Speaker 2: nail and board up the windows and doors. He's working
Speaker 2: with one leg and no hammer, and they'll hear him.
Speaker 2: The murder Cannibal Cult girls definitely have some difficulty getting
Speaker 2: out the cabin as it unfolds, and they are all
Speaker 2: asleep until Shauna wakes them up. Prompt one does Seana
Speaker 2: save the girls from burning up after a Hervey induced
Speaker 2: food coma is the fact that she is upstairs journaling
Speaker 2: and being perfectly petty. Are you their wilderness? It's me Seana.
Speaker 2: The reason the girls didn't die from smoke inhalation or
Speaker 2: not wake up until it was too late. Yes, I
Speaker 2: think I love it. I love that. If Shawna wasn't
Speaker 2: that's writing her ridiculous? Why wasn't it me, journal? I
Speaker 2: think you're right. I think they would all die. And
Speaker 2: I actually that was what I was gonna say. I
Speaker 2: do think Ben probably could have hammered and nailed and
Speaker 2: no one would have known except for little dear diary Shana. Yes,
Speaker 2: and he's gonna say. Finally, Cody says, the one other
Speaker 2: thing I will say in defense of Coach Ben's plan
Speaker 2: is that the girls could easily die of exposure without
Speaker 2: the cabin. One more blizzard, a few nights of exposure
Speaker 2: in the open air with no fireplace, donezo. It's a
Speaker 2: solid plan, Cody said. These girls are gonna die. Ben's
Speaker 2: gonna be fine. It's a solid plan in bad circumstances
Speaker 2: to deal with it must be said again, he is
Speaker 2: dealing with a self created cult of murder cannibals. All
Speaker 2: that said, I mean, I mean, what do you think.
Speaker 1: I think that's very fair to Coach Ben, And I
Speaker 1: think that's probably right. Listen, he has no good options
Speaker 1: and no allies. So ah, everything that he has to do,
Speaker 1: he's got to do on his own initiative. Certainly, it
Speaker 1: could He's absolutely right, it could still work. They could
Speaker 1: die of exposure. There's there's not a ton like there's
Speaker 1: not enough space in the tree for everybody.
Speaker 2: If you know, what do you think? Yeah? No, I
Speaker 2: love it, And Cody finishes with a perfect line. Ben
Speaker 2: is not making out of the wilderness. If you come
Speaker 2: for the antler queen, you bear not miss it. Ain't
Speaker 2: that the truth about yellowjackets. So I think Ben is done.
Speaker 2: But you know what, I understand his motivations. Cody, you
Speaker 2: did a great job selling us it's okay to murder
Speaker 2: teenagers if they're cannibal murder teens stuck in a forest.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that that's fairer like you. You
Speaker 1: would any right thinking person would naturally be terrified for
Speaker 1: their life at all.
Speaker 2: Yes, I agree, Thank you, Cody. If you have theories
Speaker 2: passions are quick questions that you want to share, hit
Speaker 2: us up at x ray at crookeet dot com. Instructions
Speaker 2: in the show notes.
Speaker 1: Well that's it for us, Rosie.
Speaker 2: Any plugs, just that we have a live show coming up,
Speaker 2: So tell everyone all about that, because that's really cool
Speaker 2: and we want to make sure everyone gets to enjoy it.
Speaker 1: Well. First, our next episode of Extra Vision will be
Speaker 1: on June twenty eighth, and that is our live episode.
Speaker 1: We're taping it on June twenty sixth. If you're in LA,
Speaker 1: please come if you're available. If you're not or you
Speaker 1: can't make it to the site, there's a live stream
Speaker 1: and information for that will be at cricket dot com
Speaker 1: slash x ray Live. Can buy your tickets to join
Speaker 1: the live stream, and the topic of conversation is gonna
Speaker 1: be the fifteenth anniversary of the sequel to Batman. Begins
Speaker 1: the famous the Dark Night I ever heard of it?
Speaker 1: Ever heard of it? Heath Ledger's iconic turn is the Joker,
Speaker 1: and we'll please announce it. Two of our special guests
Speaker 1: at this time Chaserano, noted multi time New York Times
Speaker 1: bestselling author, showrunner and creator of Primo on Amazon Prime.
Speaker 1: N Joel Monique, noted comics and pop culture figure. Go
Speaker 1: to cricket dot com slash x ray Love to get
Speaker 1: your live stream tickets.
Speaker 2: And if you want to watch us before then subscribe
Speaker 2: on YouTube we got full episodes up there and check
Speaker 2: out our discord. You can join hang out and meet
Speaker 2: with a bunch of cool fans. I'm me and Jason
Speaker 2: Pulpit and.
Speaker 1: That once in a while five Star ray five star
Speaker 1: and we gotta have them. You gotta get him to
Speaker 1: his Here's one from Emily k a weekly must love
Speaker 1: this pod. Historically not a comic reader, so getting insights
Speaker 1: int nerd stuff from the comics is great and inspiring
Speaker 1: to pick up more comics and finding cars. Thank you,
Speaker 1: Emily Kelly. We'll see you next time.
Speaker 2: Bye.
Speaker 1: X ray Vision is a Crooked Media production. The show
Speaker 1: is produced by Chris Lord and Saul Rumin and executive
Speaker 1: produced by me Jason Concepci and our editing at sound
Speaker 1: design is by Facillis Phtopoulos. Video production by Delon Villanueva
Speaker 1: and Rachel Guayeski. Social media by Awa Oklati and Caroline Duncy.
Speaker 1: Thank you to Brian Basquez for our theme