WEBVTT - Secret Invasion Premiere 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:03.400 Warning, this podcast contains spoilers for the premiere of Secret Invasion, 0:00:03.400 --> 0:00:18.919 streaming now on Disney Plus. Hello, my name is Jason 0:00:19.760 --> 0:00:21.959 and I'm Rosie Nike and welcome to Extra Vision, The 0:00:21.960 --> 0:00:26.000 Crooked podcast where we dive deep into your favorite shows, movies, comics, 0:00:26.040 --> 0:00:27.040 and pop culture. 0:00:27.320 --> 0:00:30.000 In this episode. In the previously on, we're talking about 0:00:30.040 --> 0:00:34.040 Neil Kirby's comments on the new Stanley documentary. That's Neil Kirby, 0:00:34.080 --> 0:00:36.960 the son of Jack Kirby, fame Marvel creator. In the 0:00:37.000 --> 0:00:40.160 airlock It's a Secret Invasion premiere, and in the nerd 0:00:40.159 --> 0:00:43.000 out a rebuttal on whether the coach Ben should have 0:00:43.040 --> 0:00:46.560 burned down the cabin in Yellowjacket season two finale controversial. 0:00:46.600 --> 0:00:49.000 Can't wait to hear that one. And we'll also be 0:00:49.080 --> 0:00:52.159 talking about another Marvel story that's been making the Internet 0:00:52.240 --> 0:00:56.520 talk today, which is the AI controversy over the Secret 0:00:56.560 --> 0:00:58.000 Invasion opening credits. 0:00:58.520 --> 0:01:04.679 Coming up previously on. First up, let's talk about Neil 0:01:04.760 --> 0:01:10.440 Kirby's comments son Marvel Comics artist, writer, all around comics 0:01:10.520 --> 0:01:16.920 legend Jack Kirby, which expressed the dismay at the framing 0:01:17.360 --> 0:01:23.760 of stan Lee's involvement in the creation of various Marvel 0:01:23.760 --> 0:01:27.640 Comics icons, but most notably Spider Man that appeared in 0:01:27.680 --> 0:01:31.440 the new Stanley documentary on Disney Plus, which is titled 0:01:31.440 --> 0:01:34.440 simply Stanley. Not quite a documentary, but we can talk 0:01:34.440 --> 0:01:40.319 about that in a second. Essentially, Stanley's position always was 0:01:41.080 --> 0:01:45.959 one that he was willing to say that Steve Ditko 0:01:46.120 --> 0:01:51.200 Jack Kirby, those two co created Spider Man. But he 0:01:51.360 --> 0:01:54.280 was only willing to say that as a weird like 0:01:54.800 --> 0:01:58.080 Olive Branch, to make them happy. But when pressed on 0:01:58.120 --> 0:02:01.040 the issue, he would always say, well, I. 0:02:00.240 --> 0:02:03.680 I thought of it, so I invented it. I thought 0:02:03.720 --> 0:02:03.920 of it. 0:02:03.960 --> 0:02:06.680 Therefore I am the sole creator of Spider Man. Now 0:02:06.680 --> 0:02:09.760 Here is Neil's statement in part it says it should 0:02:09.800 --> 0:02:13.279 be noted and is generally accepted that Stanley, this is 0:02:13.360 --> 0:02:15.320 such a fucking wild way to. 0:02:15.600 --> 0:02:18.360 I just want to say, this is years in the making, 0:02:18.800 --> 0:02:21.080 This is years of controversy. I will give you a 0:02:21.080 --> 0:02:23.040 little bit of an insight into it when we talk 0:02:23.040 --> 0:02:27.000 about it. But this is Neil, after having to go 0:02:27.080 --> 0:02:31.079 through the legal system to get money for the things 0:02:31.080 --> 0:02:35.079 that his father created, including the X Men, the Fantastic Four, 0:02:35.200 --> 0:02:38.519 like basically a thor every superhero that you like, from 0:02:38.560 --> 0:02:43.320 Marvel was partially created, probably by Jack Kirby and alongside Stanley, 0:02:43.400 --> 0:02:47.160 So it is going to sound pretty angry, but there's 0:02:47.200 --> 0:02:48.000 context for it. 0:02:48.440 --> 0:02:52.240 And by the way, before we get into the opening 0:02:52.400 --> 0:02:56.000 salvos of the statement, which again are crazy, it's important 0:02:56.040 --> 0:02:59.600 to note that comics, being a visual medium m HM, 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:04.200 are naturally going to be a collaboration between artists and writer. 0:03:04.320 --> 0:03:07.400 Like stan could say, Hey, a guy with spider powers, 0:03:07.400 --> 0:03:10.880 and maybe we call him Spider Man exactly in order 0:03:10.919 --> 0:03:13.360 for him to be sole creator, he would probably also 0:03:13.440 --> 0:03:16.280 have to say, and the costume looks like this, and 0:03:16.360 --> 0:03:18.760 I'm gonna draw it, and I'm going to draw it, 0:03:18.919 --> 0:03:21.440 and I've decided the webbings go under the arms like this, 0:03:21.880 --> 0:03:23.760 and no that like the rest of it. Yeah, you 0:03:23.760 --> 0:03:25.560 had the idea, but then other people move the ball 0:03:25.600 --> 0:03:25.840 down the. 0:03:25.840 --> 0:03:28.400 Field, and even I will say as well, the question 0:03:28.520 --> 0:03:33.280 of what ideas stan had are very controversial. For example, 0:03:33.400 --> 0:03:37.400 as Neil gets into here, it is highly understood now 0:03:37.480 --> 0:03:41.120 decades later that Jack Kirby invented the Fantastic Four and 0:03:41.160 --> 0:03:43.840 based them on the challenges of the unknown, But even 0:03:43.880 --> 0:03:47.000 in the new documentary in Inverted Commas that Disney plus 0:03:47.040 --> 0:03:50.040 released called stan Lee. They have stan saying that he 0:03:50.120 --> 0:03:53.280 invented them, he created the characters. So even that idea 0:03:53.360 --> 0:03:55.360 of who came up with the idea is still very 0:03:55.480 --> 0:03:56.360 much contest. 0:03:56.560 --> 0:03:58.560 Well, I think it is generally accepted in terms of 0:03:58.560 --> 0:04:01.760 the Fantastic Four that stan said something like, hey, it 0:04:01.800 --> 0:04:03.960 would be cool if there was a superhero family. 0:04:04.320 --> 0:04:07.360 No no, no, no, there's letters from Stan and stuff. Now, 0:04:07.600 --> 0:04:10.800 the Fantastic Four one is very deep because, as Neil 0:04:10.800 --> 0:04:13.800 points out, they're essentially based on Challenges the Unknown, which 0:04:13.840 --> 0:04:17.440 was something that Jack had done already at DC. And 0:04:17.480 --> 0:04:21.360 not just that, but the characters are named after people 0:04:21.360 --> 0:04:24.480 that were close to Jack Kirby. So stan has always 0:04:24.480 --> 0:04:27.159 said he wanted to do like a team. But it's 0:04:27.279 --> 0:04:30.360 unclear whether this one is one of the most contested 0:04:30.600 --> 0:04:31.640 the Fantastic Four. 0:04:32.360 --> 0:04:35.760 Well, here is Neil's statement in part quote. It should 0:04:35.760 --> 0:04:38.880 be noted and is generally accepted that Stanley had a 0:04:38.920 --> 0:04:41.839 limited knowledge of history, mythology. 0:04:41.360 --> 0:04:43.719 Or sien things that Jack Kirby loved. 0:04:45.200 --> 0:04:50.320 I mean, listen, I'm largely on Jack's and Steve Didko's sider. 0:04:50.400 --> 0:04:55.159 But that is like you're really saying, like, hey, everybody 0:04:55.240 --> 0:04:56.520 knows Stanley didn't read. 0:04:56.800 --> 0:04:59.680 Well, I will say, and this actually comes across in 0:04:59.720 --> 0:05:03.080 the doc documentary. Stan built a lot of his career 0:05:03.120 --> 0:05:05.680 on basically saying he was ashamed of comics, and that 0:05:05.760 --> 0:05:09.240 comics weren't adult, and comics weren't deep. 0:05:09.200 --> 0:05:11.279 And failed novelists and. 0:05:11.120 --> 0:05:15.160 Failed novelists would write comics, and that comics were not serious. 0:05:15.240 --> 0:05:17.440 So I think that what Neil did here that I 0:05:17.720 --> 0:05:19.920 really love about this statement As someone who's written quite 0:05:19.920 --> 0:05:22.880 extensively on this, he went at it in an academic 0:05:23.000 --> 0:05:26.839 framework and used sure the mythology which Jack was so 0:05:27.040 --> 0:05:30.360 keen on. We talked previously about his like wild DC stuff, 0:05:30.440 --> 0:05:33.679 k new gods right. So like Neil saying, look, stan 0:05:33.839 --> 0:05:36.000 probably didn't like this stuff as much as my dad. 0:05:36.080 --> 0:05:38.880 So who do you think was calling on Norse mythology? 0:05:38.920 --> 0:05:40.880 Who do you think was calling on these kind of 0:05:41.839 --> 0:05:46.360 archetypal tropes that came from decades and centuries of law. 0:05:46.640 --> 0:05:48.960 It was probably my dad and he goes real academic 0:05:49.000 --> 0:05:49.280 with it. 0:05:49.279 --> 0:05:52.120 It's pretty wild, the statement continues. On the other hand, 0:05:52.200 --> 0:05:54.479 my father's knowledge of these subjects, to which I and 0:05:54.520 --> 0:05:58.599 many others can personally test, was extensive. Einstein summed it 0:05:58.680 --> 0:06:01.119 up better more than I knowledge, lesser of the ego 0:06:01.279 --> 0:06:05.279 lesser than knowledge more the ego, which I'll just say 0:06:05.440 --> 0:06:08.279 makes it seem like Einstein was weighing in on Jack 0:06:08.400 --> 0:06:12.000 Kirby versus Stanley. I probably would have scrubbed that mention 0:06:12.720 --> 0:06:15.120 if I was Neil's editor. A little bit of a 0:06:15.160 --> 0:06:16.080 weird ad here. 0:06:16.160 --> 0:06:18.200 It was posted on his Twitter by his doors, so 0:06:18.320 --> 0:06:19.040 probably no idea. 0:06:19.760 --> 0:06:24.960 Yeah, it continues. You will see Lee's name as a 0:06:24.960 --> 0:06:27.000 co creator on every character, with the exception of the 0:06:27.000 --> 0:06:29.520 Silver Surfer Solar creator by my father. Are we to 0:06:29.600 --> 0:06:31.800 assumably had a hand in creating every Marvel character? Or 0:06:31.839 --> 0:06:33.520 we to assume that it was never the other co 0:06:33.600 --> 0:06:35.480 creator that walked into Lee's office and that stan I 0:06:35.520 --> 0:06:38.000 have a great idea for a character. According to Lee, 0:06:38.040 --> 0:06:40.800 it was always his idea. That's absolutely the case. Here's 0:06:40.800 --> 0:06:44.040 a tweet by Brian Cronin, a great comics historian who 0:06:44.120 --> 0:06:48.279 works over at CBRS, written, I've referred personally in my 0:06:48.320 --> 0:06:51.839 own research to his articles many, many, many a time. 0:06:52.360 --> 0:06:54.640 He does a great like comic book legends where he 0:06:54.680 --> 0:06:57.599 breaks down like, yes, famous myths and are they true? 0:06:57.680 --> 0:07:00.680 And how did they happen? And yeah, he knows extensively 0:07:00.680 --> 0:07:01.080 about this. 0:07:01.200 --> 0:07:04.120 He knows his stuff, and he you know, here's a 0:07:04.120 --> 0:07:06.640 thread and a snippet of an article that he posted 0:07:06.680 --> 0:07:09.960 several days ago. In response to this, he wrote, quote, 0:07:09.960 --> 0:07:12.000 here's a Stanley thing that always amazes me. He was 0:07:12.000 --> 0:07:13.920 stuck on the idea that he was the sole creative 0:07:13.960 --> 0:07:17.400 Spider Man because he quote came up with the ideas, 0:07:17.520 --> 0:07:19.760 despite obviously not being the one who came up with 0:07:19.800 --> 0:07:22.120 the idea of doing a comic book called Spider Man? 0:07:22.760 --> 0:07:25.520 Can you even imagine that? And then he posts a 0:07:26.120 --> 0:07:29.360 snippet of a conversation that Stanley had with Jonathan Ross, 0:07:30.080 --> 0:07:33.400 in which Ross asks, but do you believe Steve didco 0:07:33.520 --> 0:07:35.960 co created Spider Man? And Stanley says, I'm willing to 0:07:36.000 --> 0:07:39.120 say so, Ross, That's not what I'm asking you. 0:07:39.520 --> 0:07:39.760 Lee. 0:07:40.000 --> 0:07:42.000 No, that's the best answer I can give you. So 0:07:42.120 --> 0:07:45.240 it's a no. Then, really, Lee, No, I really think 0:07:45.280 --> 0:07:47.560 the guy who dreams the thing up created it. You 0:07:47.640 --> 0:07:49.440 dream it up and then you give it to somebody 0:07:49.480 --> 0:07:51.520 to draw it. Now, that's not how it works. 0:07:51.560 --> 0:07:55.280 But that's literally a quote they use in the Disney 0:07:55.840 --> 0:08:00.520 documentary or in Stan's voice, And I think that I 0:08:00.560 --> 0:08:03.080 was really happy to see how much this was reported 0:08:03.120 --> 0:08:07.120 on because this was just shared through Jillian Kirby, Neil's 0:08:07.160 --> 0:08:11.880 daughter's Twitter account. She shared this very long phrasing and 0:08:12.600 --> 0:08:15.880 rebuttal that Neil posted, and I think everyone should read it. 0:08:15.880 --> 0:08:18.840 It's really important and it's really great to see it 0:08:19.240 --> 0:08:22.880 in variety in THHR to see people like Giema del Toro, 0:08:22.960 --> 0:08:27.000 Brian Cronin coming forward and talking about the realities of this. 0:08:27.360 --> 0:08:30.720 No one is trying to take away Stanley's legacy. He 0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:33.600 did a very good job over his long life of 0:08:33.640 --> 0:08:38.080 building that legacy, and Marvel and especially Marvel Studios, both 0:08:38.120 --> 0:08:41.800 comics and the films, have helped him build it. He 0:08:42.160 --> 0:08:46.080 took on a very famous role at one point Chairman Emeritus, 0:08:46.080 --> 0:08:48.400 where he just got paid a wage to essentially be 0:08:48.520 --> 0:08:51.199 like a spokesperson for Marvel and promote the Marvel brand, 0:08:51.559 --> 0:08:54.400 and in doing that he built a legend in law 0:08:54.440 --> 0:08:57.680 for himself that he was a sole creator. And while 0:08:58.080 --> 0:09:01.160 that was almost something of just a personal mythos, stan 0:09:01.320 --> 0:09:06.200 also spoke at depositions in the favor of Marvel and 0:09:06.280 --> 0:09:10.160 against his creators getting rights, getting original art, and getting money. 0:09:10.200 --> 0:09:12.360 So he did end up doing this on the backs 0:09:12.360 --> 0:09:15.040 of other people. And that's why someone like Neil has 0:09:15.080 --> 0:09:18.400 such a personal investment in this because while like me 0:09:18.520 --> 0:09:20.560 and you, we talk about Jack Kirby all the time, 0:09:20.840 --> 0:09:23.560 I feel like since thor Ragnarok there's been a more 0:09:23.720 --> 0:09:28.160 wide appreciation of Kirby and his influence. It did take 0:09:28.320 --> 0:09:33.000 decades to get there, including a very long lawsuit that 0:09:33.200 --> 0:09:36.680 ended up with a settlement between Marvel and the Kirby family. 0:09:36.720 --> 0:09:40.200 Because something that people might not know is that when 0:09:40.400 --> 0:09:44.120 these creators were creating these characters, they were not working 0:09:44.200 --> 0:09:47.440 under what we call work for Higher agreements. So these 0:09:47.559 --> 0:09:51.760 characters were created and the people who created them actually 0:09:51.800 --> 0:09:55.480 did have some kind of claim to them, but as 0:09:55.520 --> 0:09:58.360 happened with Siegel and Schuster and Superman, in the case 0:09:58.360 --> 0:10:02.840 of Marvel, those essentially ended up becoming the property of 0:10:02.840 --> 0:10:06.120 Marvel due to payment agreements that they made. A lot 0:10:06.120 --> 0:10:08.720 of the creators actually had to just sign over those 0:10:08.800 --> 0:10:12.120 rights to get their checks. Yeah, and that happened in 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:15.400 the seventies, So there is a lot of history here. 0:10:15.920 --> 0:10:18.640 And I watched the documentary, I actually found that it 0:10:18.679 --> 0:10:20.760 was quite sad. That was kind of how I felt 0:10:20.760 --> 0:10:22.679 about it. Even made me feel quite sad for Stan 0:10:22.760 --> 0:10:26.120 and I've written quite extensively about this history and his 0:10:26.280 --> 0:10:29.160 role in the way that creators were treated at Marvel. 0:10:29.600 --> 0:10:32.600 But I think Neil was right to do this, and 0:10:32.640 --> 0:10:35.200 I think that everyone should watch the documentary because I 0:10:35.240 --> 0:10:38.080 think it actually doesn't paint Stan in the light that 0:10:38.120 --> 0:10:40.920 I'm sure Disney Plus wanted them to, because it is 0:10:40.960 --> 0:10:42.960 all told in his own words, so you can catch 0:10:42.960 --> 0:10:45.520 a lot of the contradictions that he would say in 0:10:45.559 --> 0:10:48.520 the way he would change these stories. But it's very 0:10:48.559 --> 0:10:52.480 interesting to see people talking about this and recognizing it 0:10:52.520 --> 0:10:56.160 and having conversations now with a more literate audience. Like 0:10:56.200 --> 0:10:59.480 you pointed out when you read that Jonathan Ross interview quote, 0:10:59.520 --> 0:11:01.240 you just know if you read comics, that's just not 0:11:01.280 --> 0:11:03.160 how it is. But you have to be able to 0:11:03.240 --> 0:11:05.559 draw it to claim, you know, you'll the soule create 0:11:05.600 --> 0:11:06.280 a Yeah. 0:11:06.440 --> 0:11:11.320 And I think, more broadly speaking and creative collaboration, there 0:11:11.480 --> 0:11:18.199 is no scientific way to in all cases accurately gauge 0:11:18.800 --> 0:11:23.840 what a person's influence on a particular project that is 0:11:23.880 --> 0:11:27.439 created through creative collaboration is. At any given time. If 0:11:27.880 --> 0:11:31.160 Stan says, okay, I have Spider Man, then gives it 0:11:31.160 --> 0:11:34.200 to Steve and Jack and they draw it up. You've 0:11:34.200 --> 0:11:36.240 got to figure out a way to split that that 0:11:36.400 --> 0:11:40.920 is going to probably make somebody feel bad in order 0:11:40.960 --> 0:11:44.679 for it to be equitable. Like I personally think, you've 0:11:44.760 --> 0:11:47.600 just got to come somewhere to fifty to fifty in 0:11:47.640 --> 0:11:49.559 stuff like this. Now somebody is going to feel like, well, 0:11:49.600 --> 0:11:52.040 I did more work and I brought this person in. 0:11:52.160 --> 0:11:53.960 And that's always the way it works with this stuff. 0:11:54.520 --> 0:11:57.079 But there's just no way to accurately do it. Somebody 0:11:57.120 --> 0:11:59.880 has to be the person who says, let's just share it. 0:12:00.160 --> 0:12:02.920 Yeah, a lot exactly. I actually think that it sounds 0:12:02.960 --> 0:12:05.000 so simple, but that's what was missing a lot of 0:12:05.040 --> 0:12:07.280 the time. Like a lot of what the documentary focuses 0:12:07.320 --> 0:12:09.760 on when it does bring this stuff up is Stan's 0:12:09.800 --> 0:12:12.959 reaction to it, And sadly, his reaction was, I am 0:12:12.960 --> 0:12:15.920 the sole creator. I came up with these ideas, and 0:12:15.960 --> 0:12:21.240 that then creates this cycle where people are unfairly pushed 0:12:21.280 --> 0:12:23.520 out of crediting, and especially with Spider Man is a 0:12:23.520 --> 0:12:26.240 really great example. So Steve Ditko is now seen as 0:12:26.280 --> 0:12:28.440 the co creator of Spider Man. And before he passed away, 0:12:28.480 --> 0:12:31.320 you know, he was very isolated. He kept to himself. 0:12:31.320 --> 0:12:33.000 He did a lot of great self publishing, a lot 0:12:33.000 --> 0:12:35.520 of which spoke about his issues with Stanley, but he 0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:37.920 ended up getting checks from Spider Man. He kind of 0:12:37.920 --> 0:12:40.440 got a little bit more of that equity. But Spider 0:12:40.440 --> 0:12:42.840 Man was originally drawn by Jack Kirby, as you pointed out, 0:12:43.160 --> 0:12:46.040 and then standing like the way it looked. But allegedly 0:12:46.160 --> 0:12:49.160 there are also a version of the story where Jack 0:12:49.240 --> 0:12:51.640 had come up with that idea before with Joe Simon 0:12:51.679 --> 0:12:54.079 about a Spider Man character. And then there is the 0:12:54.200 --> 0:12:56.959 very controversial fact that the Spider Man costume looks like 0:12:57.000 --> 0:13:00.240 a costume that a Halloween company had been making. So 0:13:00.280 --> 0:13:03.320 there's all this kind of blurry conversation around it that 0:13:03.400 --> 0:13:05.760 comes from the fact that these were stories being made 0:13:05.760 --> 0:13:08.240 for what was seen as a disposable medium for kids, 0:13:08.640 --> 0:13:11.000 that people were getting paid like no money to write 0:13:11.120 --> 0:13:14.200 and draw. And it's kind of funny to now have 0:13:14.280 --> 0:13:17.959 to extrapolate this when it's about like a billion dollar project. 0:13:18.559 --> 0:13:21.040 I think the thing to your point that's sad about 0:13:21.040 --> 0:13:27.520 this for me is setting aside all of Stanley's self aggrandizement, 0:13:28.440 --> 0:13:31.319 just the stuff that you can absolutely say with authority 0:13:31.400 --> 0:13:35.319 that Stanley was responsible for that the promotion of comics 0:13:35.400 --> 0:13:39.040 and Marvel in particular advocacy. Steve Dicko you mentioned was 0:13:39.080 --> 0:13:43.880 a you know, was a ann Randian shut in who 0:13:44.600 --> 0:13:49.199 had no inclination to be the front facing salesman for comics. 0:13:49.280 --> 0:13:51.480 He didn't even want them to publish pictures of him. 0:13:51.480 --> 0:13:52.520 There's barely any. 0:13:52.480 --> 0:13:55.480 Jack Kirby was a kind of rough and tumble guy 0:13:55.520 --> 0:13:58.040 who did not have the kind of charm and like 0:13:58.679 --> 0:14:03.199 eagerness to hoobknob that Stanley had. That's like not nothing 0:14:03.320 --> 0:14:07.280 being the promotional guy for comics and coming up with 0:14:07.320 --> 0:14:08.760 a lot of you know, he did come up with 0:14:08.760 --> 0:14:11.480 a lot of the ideas, and while the Marvel method 0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:17.199 was created ad hoc to deal with what the structure 0:14:17.280 --> 0:14:19.280 of Marvel was at the time, it was not like 0:14:19.320 --> 0:14:25.400 a strategized system. It also gave him like tremendous influence 0:14:25.400 --> 0:14:27.600 in the stories that were created. So I think what's 0:14:27.680 --> 0:14:30.240 sad about this is it overshadows the stuff that he 0:14:30.320 --> 0:14:34.760 really did do, which is tremendous, like really really important stuff. Yeah. 0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:36.920 I think that's the saddest thing is that in creating 0:14:36.920 --> 0:14:40.760 this personal legend and then in posthumously, like with stand 0:14:40.840 --> 0:14:44.360 now passed away in Disney trying to carve this idea 0:14:44.360 --> 0:14:48.560 that he was some golden child who did everything himself. Yeah, 0:14:48.600 --> 0:14:50.920 you rub away the reality of the whole man. And 0:14:51.000 --> 0:14:52.680 like you said, this is what I always say. I wrote. 0:14:52.680 --> 0:14:54.560 I wrote an a bituary for Stanley that I'm really 0:14:54.600 --> 0:14:58.000 proud of Esquy Magazine when he passed away, and it 0:14:58.040 --> 0:15:00.760 was essentially a history of all of this stuff. And 0:15:00.880 --> 0:15:04.760 I always say, brilliant editor, unbelievable editor. A lot of 0:15:04.760 --> 0:15:06.520 what he talks about when he talks about writing, he 0:15:06.560 --> 0:15:09.040 was just editing someone else's story and giving them ideas 0:15:09.040 --> 0:15:11.600 and notes. He's an incredible talent spot I look at 0:15:11.600 --> 0:15:14.880 the people he surrounded himself. Yeah, John Bushma, Steve Ditko, 0:15:15.160 --> 0:15:17.720 Jack Kirby. Also, he is also one of the original 0:15:17.760 --> 0:15:20.520 NEPO babies. They actually don't really talk about that very much. 0:15:20.720 --> 0:15:22.680 So yes, you know, he got his job at Marvel 0:15:22.680 --> 0:15:25.480 because of his cousin and stuff like that. But he's 0:15:25.520 --> 0:15:28.640 also an unbelievable advocate for comics. Like you said, he 0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:31.720 went on college tours. He made comics. They were taken 0:15:31.800 --> 0:15:34.240 seriously in an academic way for the first time because 0:15:34.240 --> 0:15:35.800 he would go and tour and he knew that there 0:15:35.800 --> 0:15:37.920 were teenagers who read this stuff, there were adults who 0:15:37.920 --> 0:15:40.160 read it. He would go on late night talk shows. 0:15:40.160 --> 0:15:44.160 He moved to Hollywood, and that's why you have TV 0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:46.440 based on comic books in the way that we understand, 0:15:46.440 --> 0:15:48.120 and all of those things are amazing. 0:15:48.640 --> 0:15:50.920 He had been working since the early seventies to try 0:15:50.960 --> 0:15:54.320 and make Marvel Yeah, have an impact in TV and film, 0:15:54.360 --> 0:15:55.760 and then a lot of the stuff that we see 0:15:55.800 --> 0:15:58.600 now is because he put that flag out there in 0:15:58.640 --> 0:15:59.280 the seventies. 0:15:59.320 --> 0:16:01.560 He has his first cameo in the Marvel universe is 0:16:01.600 --> 0:16:03.760 in one of the old Incredible Hulk TV movies. You know, 0:16:03.800 --> 0:16:05.400 this is something he was doing for a long time. 0:16:06.080 --> 0:16:10.520 And it is sad that the controversies, which I will 0:16:10.520 --> 0:16:12.680 say he did have a big hand in creating. So 0:16:12.760 --> 0:16:15.680 it's kind of like the conversation needs to be holistic 0:16:15.720 --> 0:16:18.040 and talk about what he did great and what he 0:16:18.080 --> 0:16:21.280 did wrong. And I think the sad truth is in 0:16:21.320 --> 0:16:23.800 this case, all Neil and his family are looking for 0:16:23.920 --> 0:16:26.360 is where's the Jack Kirby documentary. If you have the 0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:28.840 Jack Kirby documentary that talks about all the things that 0:16:28.920 --> 0:16:33.360 Jack did, then nobody worries about the Stanley documentary. Because 0:16:33.360 --> 0:16:35.400 it wouldn't be raising Jack. So I think it's all 0:16:35.440 --> 0:16:38.960 about equity. Even now, it's still about who created it, 0:16:39.160 --> 0:16:43.840 who's getting the credit, and who is celebrated for these 0:16:43.880 --> 0:16:46.080 stories that we all love. And I think in this case, 0:16:46.560 --> 0:16:50.240 whatever deal the Kirby's made with Disney, I think this 0:16:50.440 --> 0:16:54.240 somehow goes against that deal because Neil has generally been 0:16:54.360 --> 0:16:56.640 very supportive. They were at the back Panther premiere. It 0:16:56.720 --> 0:16:59.160 seemed like Disney and the Kirby Estate were in a 0:16:59.200 --> 0:17:03.200 good place and this seems to go against whatever they 0:17:03.360 --> 0:17:04.000 agreed on. 0:17:04.760 --> 0:17:08.040 Yeah, I also think that you know, listen, we're comics 0:17:08.080 --> 0:17:12.320 nerds here. This feud and story is really not one 0:17:12.400 --> 0:17:15.359 that moves beyond the bubble of comics nerds. 0:17:15.440 --> 0:17:15.640 Hum. 0:17:16.600 --> 0:17:20.199 And I think it's absolutely believable and reasonable to me 0:17:20.359 --> 0:17:24.000 that very view if any people responsible for moving this 0:17:24.080 --> 0:17:29.120 documentary down the line from production to the platform had 0:17:29.200 --> 0:17:32.439 any awareness of the kind of heat that is behind 0:17:32.440 --> 0:17:38.360 this particular topic. X Ray Vision will be back. Quick 0:17:38.400 --> 0:17:40.479 reminder folks that we will be live streaming our fifteenth 0:17:40.480 --> 0:17:44.160 Anniversary of The Dark Knight retrospective episode on June twenty six, 0:17:44.240 --> 0:17:49.000 seven pm Pacific time. Join us. Jason and Rosie Live 0:17:49.040 --> 0:17:51.639 with guests Chase Serano and Joel Monique for one of 0:17:51.640 --> 0:17:54.600 a kind of analysis, movie lore and much more. For 0:17:54.680 --> 0:17:57.200 live stream tickets, head to cricket dot com slash x 0:17:57.320 --> 0:18:05.680 ray Live and we're back, moving on to an a topic, 0:18:05.960 --> 0:18:09.320 to another heated topic. So a Secret Invasion. We're recording 0:18:09.320 --> 0:18:13.359 this on Wednesday. Came out late Tuesday night and early 0:18:13.359 --> 0:18:18.600 Wednesday morning. It emerged that the credits sequence the opening 0:18:18.640 --> 0:18:22.080 credits for Secret Invasion were created in some form of 0:18:22.160 --> 0:18:28.760 fashion using AI. Here is a quote from Polygon quoting 0:18:28.960 --> 0:18:33.000 the director Ali Salim. This is from the article from Polygon. Quote. 0:18:33.040 --> 0:18:35.760 Like many people, Slim says he doesn't really understand how 0:18:35.840 --> 0:18:38.280 the artificial intelligence works, but was fascinated with the ways 0:18:38.320 --> 0:18:41.040 in which AI could translate the sense of foreboding he 0:18:41.080 --> 0:18:44.880 wanted for the series. The article continues. Method Studios did 0:18:44.880 --> 0:18:47.640 not respond to Polygon's requests for comment about how exactly 0:18:48.000 --> 0:18:51.960 design the sequence. The staff for the credits includes producers, designers, 0:18:51.960 --> 0:18:54.840 and an AI technician, but the company had previously worked 0:18:54.840 --> 0:18:57.639 on Marvel shows like Miss Marvel, Loki, and Moonnight. In 0:18:57.640 --> 0:19:01.760 addition to Game of Thrones, Battle the Back, Stard's Great episode, 0:19:01.920 --> 0:19:07.880 and for All Mankind seasons two and three, some more 0:19:07.920 --> 0:19:12.399 contacts from Gizmoto. While Method Studios work on those was 0:19:12.440 --> 0:19:15.960 seemingly on a more traditional side of VFX production, it 0:19:16.000 --> 0:19:18.840 was approached for Secret Invasion to instead use AI generated 0:19:18.840 --> 0:19:20.840 imagery for using the titles. Now, of course, there's a 0:19:20.880 --> 0:19:25.320 backlash in this. AI is a subject of a lot 0:19:25.320 --> 0:19:27.760 of heated debate because of the fears that it could 0:19:27.880 --> 0:19:30.399 is taking creative's jobs. I think those fears are foundered. 0:19:30.400 --> 0:19:32.200 We've talked about that on this podcast. 0:19:32.440 --> 0:19:35.320 We know it's based extensively on plagiarized art the way 0:19:35.320 --> 0:19:36.120 that they trained. 0:19:36.320 --> 0:19:39.879 Yeah. Right. And also, you know, the industry is in 0:19:39.920 --> 0:19:43.439 the midst of negotiating deals or you know of a 0:19:43.520 --> 0:19:46.640 labor action with WGA in which the role of AI 0:19:46.800 --> 0:19:49.160 and any kind of future deal plays a major role. 0:19:50.200 --> 0:19:53.720 AI was addressed in the dga's deal that it was 0:19:53.760 --> 0:19:56.840 struck with the AMPTP. So this is a heated topic 0:19:56.880 --> 0:20:01.199 and people feel very passionate about it. Rosie, what are 0:20:01.240 --> 0:20:01.960 your thoughts. 0:20:02.320 --> 0:20:09.439 I think this is a worrying development only in that 0:20:09.680 --> 0:20:13.320 it feels like the conversation that we have all been 0:20:13.400 --> 0:20:15.879 having on this podcast. This has really been less than 0:20:15.880 --> 0:20:18.640 a year of conversation, and I think part of the 0:20:18.680 --> 0:20:22.600 reason that the backlash has been so strong, even though, 0:20:22.640 --> 0:20:25.040 as you know, you've pointed out really well when we've 0:20:25.080 --> 0:20:27.879 been talking about this offline, is like, we don't know 0:20:27.920 --> 0:20:30.399 what the workflow is like, we don't know how the 0:20:30.520 --> 0:20:34.199 AI imagery was used. But I understand the backlash and 0:20:34.240 --> 0:20:38.159 I understand why people are worried because this feels like 0:20:38.240 --> 0:20:42.920 it has happened incredibly quickly from the conversation of oh 0:20:42.960 --> 0:20:44.560 AI might be used by studios. 0:20:44.600 --> 0:20:44.719 Now. 0:20:44.760 --> 0:20:47.600 AI has been used before by Disney as a tool 0:20:47.640 --> 0:20:50.720 to dage people, like in Indiana Jones the new movie, right, 0:20:51.000 --> 0:20:53.679 but this is the first time that AI generated imagery 0:20:53.720 --> 0:20:56.560 has been used in Marvel, and it is I think 0:20:56.600 --> 0:21:00.760 another reason the backlash has been so big. It looks 0:21:00.920 --> 0:21:04.320 a lot like what we've seen when people have used AI, 0:21:05.160 --> 0:21:08.600 things like Mid Journey. The images specifically that have been 0:21:08.640 --> 0:21:09.119 coming up. 0:21:09.240 --> 0:21:13.879 It looks like pre mid Journey, I forget it. It 0:21:13.960 --> 0:21:17.960 looks like Dolly generated Dodges, which is like a generation 0:21:18.040 --> 0:21:21.040 and a half behind previous to Mid Journey. 0:21:21.400 --> 0:21:24.120