1
00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,400
Speaker 1: Warning, this podcast contains spoilers for the premiere of Secret Invasion,

2
00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:18,919
Speaker 1: streaming now on Disney Plus. Hello, my name is Jason

3
00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:21,959
Speaker 1: and I'm Rosie Nike and welcome to Extra Vision, The

4
00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:26,000
Speaker 1: Crooked podcast where we dive deep into your favorite shows, movies, comics,

5
00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:27,040
Speaker 1: and pop culture.

6
00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:30,000
Speaker 2: In this episode. In the previously on, we're talking about

7
00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:34,040
Speaker 2: Neil Kirby's comments on the new Stanley documentary. That's Neil Kirby,

8
00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:36,960
Speaker 2: the son of Jack Kirby, fame Marvel creator. In the

9
00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:40,160
Speaker 2: airlock It's a Secret Invasion premiere, and in the nerd

10
00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:43,000
Speaker 2: out a rebuttal on whether the coach Ben should have

11
00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:46,560
Speaker 2: burned down the cabin in Yellowjacket season two finale controversial.

12
00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:49,000
Speaker 2: Can't wait to hear that one. And we'll also be

13
00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:52,159
Speaker 2: talking about another Marvel story that's been making the Internet

14
00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:56,520
Speaker 2: talk today, which is the AI controversy over the Secret

15
00:00:56,560 --> 00:00:58,000
Speaker 2: Invasion opening credits.

16
00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:04,679
Speaker 1: Coming up previously on. First up, let's talk about Neil

17
00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:10,440
Speaker 1: Kirby's comments son Marvel Comics artist, writer, all around comics

18
00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:16,920
Speaker 1: legend Jack Kirby, which expressed the dismay at the framing

19
00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:23,760
Speaker 1: of stan Lee's involvement in the creation of various Marvel

20
00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:27,640
Speaker 1: Comics icons, but most notably Spider Man that appeared in

21
00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:31,440
Speaker 1: the new Stanley documentary on Disney Plus, which is titled

22
00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:34,440
Speaker 1: simply Stanley. Not quite a documentary, but we can talk

23
00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:40,319
Speaker 1: about that in a second. Essentially, Stanley's position always was

24
00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:45,959
Speaker 1: one that he was willing to say that Steve Ditko

25
00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:51,200
Speaker 1: Jack Kirby, those two co created Spider Man. But he

26
00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:54,280
Speaker 1: was only willing to say that as a weird like

27
00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:58,080
Speaker 1: Olive Branch, to make them happy. But when pressed on

28
00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:01,040
Speaker 1: the issue, he would always say, well, I.

29
00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:03,680
Speaker 2: I thought of it, so I invented it. I thought

30
00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:03,920
Speaker 2: of it.

31
00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:06,680
Speaker 1: Therefore I am the sole creator of Spider Man. Now

32
00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:09,760
Speaker 1: Here is Neil's statement in part it says it should

33
00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:13,279
Speaker 1: be noted and is generally accepted that Stanley, this is

34
00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:15,320
Speaker 1: such a fucking wild way to.

35
00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:18,360
Speaker 2: I just want to say, this is years in the making,

36
00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:21,080
Speaker 2: This is years of controversy. I will give you a

37
00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:23,040
Speaker 2: little bit of an insight into it when we talk

38
00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:27,000
Speaker 2: about it. But this is Neil, after having to go

39
00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:31,079
Speaker 2: through the legal system to get money for the things

40
00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:35,079
Speaker 2: that his father created, including the X Men, the Fantastic Four,

41
00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:38,519
Speaker 2: like basically a thor every superhero that you like, from

42
00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:43,320
Speaker 2: Marvel was partially created, probably by Jack Kirby and alongside Stanley,

43
00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:47,160
Speaker 2: So it is going to sound pretty angry, but there's

44
00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:48,000
Speaker 2: context for it.

45
00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:52,240
Speaker 1: And by the way, before we get into the opening

46
00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:56,000
Speaker 1: salvos of the statement, which again are crazy, it's important

47
00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:59,600
Speaker 1: to note that comics, being a visual medium m HM,

48
00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:04,200
Speaker 1: are naturally going to be a collaboration between artists and writer.

49
00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:07,400
Speaker 1: Like stan could say, Hey, a guy with spider powers,

50
00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:10,880
Speaker 1: and maybe we call him Spider Man exactly in order

51
00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:13,360
Speaker 1: for him to be sole creator, he would probably also

52
00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:16,280
Speaker 1: have to say, and the costume looks like this, and

53
00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:18,760
Speaker 1: I'm gonna draw it, and I'm going to draw it,

54
00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:21,440
Speaker 1: and I've decided the webbings go under the arms like this,

55
00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:23,760
Speaker 1: and no that like the rest of it. Yeah, you

56
00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:25,560
Speaker 1: had the idea, but then other people move the ball

57
00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:25,840
Speaker 1: down the.

58
00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:28,400
Speaker 2: Field, and even I will say as well, the question

59
00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:33,280
Speaker 2: of what ideas stan had are very controversial. For example,

60
00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:37,400
Speaker 2: as Neil gets into here, it is highly understood now

61
00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:41,120
Speaker 2: decades later that Jack Kirby invented the Fantastic Four and

62
00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:43,840
Speaker 2: based them on the challenges of the unknown, But even

63
00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:47,000
Speaker 2: in the new documentary in Inverted Commas that Disney plus

64
00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:50,040
Speaker 2: released called stan Lee. They have stan saying that he

65
00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:53,280
Speaker 2: invented them, he created the characters. So even that idea

66
00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:55,360
Speaker 2: of who came up with the idea is still very

67
00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:56,360
Speaker 2: much contest.

68
00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:58,560
Speaker 1: Well, I think it is generally accepted in terms of

69
00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:01,760
Speaker 1: the Fantastic Four that stan said something like, hey, it

70
00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:03,960
Speaker 1: would be cool if there was a superhero family.

71
00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:07,360
Speaker 2: No no, no, no, there's letters from Stan and stuff. Now,

72
00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:10,800
Speaker 2: the Fantastic Four one is very deep because, as Neil

73
00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:13,800
Speaker 2: points out, they're essentially based on Challenges the Unknown, which

74
00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:17,440
Speaker 2: was something that Jack had done already at DC. And

75
00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:21,360
Speaker 2: not just that, but the characters are named after people

76
00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:24,480
Speaker 2: that were close to Jack Kirby. So stan has always

77
00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:27,159
Speaker 2: said he wanted to do like a team. But it's

78
00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:30,360
Speaker 2: unclear whether this one is one of the most contested

79
00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:31,640
Speaker 2: the Fantastic Four.

80
00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:35,760
Speaker 1: Well, here is Neil's statement in part quote. It should

81
00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:38,880
Speaker 1: be noted and is generally accepted that Stanley had a

82
00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:41,839
Speaker 1: limited knowledge of history, mythology.

83
00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:43,719
Speaker 2: Or sien things that Jack Kirby loved.

84
00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:50,320
Speaker 1: I mean, listen, I'm largely on Jack's and Steve Didko's sider.

85
00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:55,159
Speaker 1: But that is like you're really saying, like, hey, everybody

86
00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:56,520
Speaker 1: knows Stanley didn't read.

87
00:04:56,800 --> 00:04:59,680
Speaker 2: Well, I will say, and this actually comes across in

88
00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:03,080
Speaker 2: the doc documentary. Stan built a lot of his career

89
00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:05,680
Speaker 2: on basically saying he was ashamed of comics, and that

90
00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:09,240
Speaker 2: comics weren't adult, and comics weren't deep.

91
00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:11,279
Speaker 1: And failed novelists and.

92
00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:15,160
Speaker 2: Failed novelists would write comics, and that comics were not serious.

93
00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:17,440
Speaker 2: So I think that what Neil did here that I

94
00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:19,920
Speaker 2: really love about this statement As someone who's written quite

95
00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:22,880
Speaker 2: extensively on this, he went at it in an academic

96
00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:26,839
Speaker 2: framework and used sure the mythology which Jack was so

97
00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:30,360
Speaker 2: keen on. We talked previously about his like wild DC stuff,

98
00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:33,679
Speaker 2: k new gods right. So like Neil saying, look, stan

99
00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:36,000
Speaker 2: probably didn't like this stuff as much as my dad.

100
00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:38,880
Speaker 2: So who do you think was calling on Norse mythology?

101
00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:40,880
Speaker 2: Who do you think was calling on these kind of

102
00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:46,360
Speaker 2: archetypal tropes that came from decades and centuries of law.

103
00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:48,960
Speaker 2: It was probably my dad and he goes real academic

104
00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:49,280
Speaker 2: with it.

105
00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:52,120
Speaker 1: It's pretty wild, the statement continues. On the other hand,

106
00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:54,479
Speaker 1: my father's knowledge of these subjects, to which I and

107
00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:58,599
Speaker 1: many others can personally test, was extensive. Einstein summed it

108
00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:01,119
Speaker 1: up better more than I knowledge, lesser of the ego

109
00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:05,279
Speaker 1: lesser than knowledge more the ego, which I'll just say

110
00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:08,279
Speaker 1: makes it seem like Einstein was weighing in on Jack

111
00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:12,000
Speaker 1: Kirby versus Stanley. I probably would have scrubbed that mention

112
00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:15,120
Speaker 1: if I was Neil's editor. A little bit of a

113
00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:16,080
Speaker 1: weird ad here.

114
00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:18,200
Speaker 2: It was posted on his Twitter by his doors, so

115
00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:19,040
Speaker 2: probably no idea.

116
00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:24,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, it continues. You will see Lee's name as a

117
00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:27,000
Speaker 1: co creator on every character, with the exception of the

118
00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:29,520
Speaker 1: Silver Surfer Solar creator by my father. Are we to

119
00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:31,800
Speaker 1: assumably had a hand in creating every Marvel character? Or

120
00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:33,520
Speaker 1: we to assume that it was never the other co

121
00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:35,480
Speaker 1: creator that walked into Lee's office and that stan I

122
00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:38,000
Speaker 1: have a great idea for a character. According to Lee,

123
00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:40,800
Speaker 1: it was always his idea. That's absolutely the case. Here's

124
00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:44,040
Speaker 1: a tweet by Brian Cronin, a great comics historian who

125
00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:48,279
Speaker 1: works over at CBRS, written, I've referred personally in my

126
00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:51,839
Speaker 1: own research to his articles many, many, many a time.

127
00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:54,640
Speaker 2: He does a great like comic book legends where he

128
00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:57,599
Speaker 2: breaks down like, yes, famous myths and are they true?

129
00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:00,680
Speaker 2: And how did they happen? And yeah, he knows extensively

130
00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:01,080
Speaker 2: about this.

131
00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:04,120
Speaker 1: He knows his stuff, and he you know, here's a

132
00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:06,640
Speaker 1: thread and a snippet of an article that he posted

133
00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:09,960
Speaker 1: several days ago. In response to this, he wrote, quote,

134
00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:12,000
Speaker 1: here's a Stanley thing that always amazes me. He was

135
00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:13,920
Speaker 1: stuck on the idea that he was the sole creative

136
00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:17,400
Speaker 1: Spider Man because he quote came up with the ideas,

137
00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:19,760
Speaker 1: despite obviously not being the one who came up with

138
00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:22,120
Speaker 1: the idea of doing a comic book called Spider Man?

139
00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:25,520
Speaker 1: Can you even imagine that? And then he posts a

140
00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:29,360
Speaker 1: snippet of a conversation that Stanley had with Jonathan Ross,

141
00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:33,400
Speaker 1: in which Ross asks, but do you believe Steve didco

142
00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:35,960
Speaker 1: co created Spider Man? And Stanley says, I'm willing to

143
00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:39,120
Speaker 1: say so, Ross, That's not what I'm asking you.

144
00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:39,760
Speaker 2: Lee.

145
00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:42,000
Speaker 1: No, that's the best answer I can give you. So

146
00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:45,240
Speaker 1: it's a no. Then, really, Lee, No, I really think

147
00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:47,560
Speaker 1: the guy who dreams the thing up created it. You

148
00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:49,440
Speaker 1: dream it up and then you give it to somebody

149
00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:51,520
Speaker 1: to draw it. Now, that's not how it works.

150
00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:55,280
Speaker 2: But that's literally a quote they use in the Disney

151
00:07:55,840 --> 00:08:00,520
Speaker 2: documentary or in Stan's voice, And I think that I

152
00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:03,080
Speaker 2: was really happy to see how much this was reported

153
00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:07,120
Speaker 2: on because this was just shared through Jillian Kirby, Neil's

154
00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:11,880
Speaker 2: daughter's Twitter account. She shared this very long phrasing and

155
00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:15,880
Speaker 2: rebuttal that Neil posted, and I think everyone should read it.

156
00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:18,840
Speaker 2: It's really important and it's really great to see it

157
00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:22,880
Speaker 2: in variety in THHR to see people like Giema del Toro,

158
00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:27,000
Speaker 2: Brian Cronin coming forward and talking about the realities of this.

159
00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:30,720
Speaker 2: No one is trying to take away Stanley's legacy. He

160
00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:33,600
Speaker 2: did a very good job over his long life of

161
00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:38,080
Speaker 2: building that legacy, and Marvel and especially Marvel Studios, both

162
00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:41,800
Speaker 2: comics and the films, have helped him build it. He

163
00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:46,080
Speaker 2: took on a very famous role at one point Chairman Emeritus,

164
00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:48,400
Speaker 2: where he just got paid a wage to essentially be

165
00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:51,199
Speaker 2: like a spokesperson for Marvel and promote the Marvel brand,

166
00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:54,400
Speaker 2: and in doing that he built a legend in law

167
00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:57,680
Speaker 2: for himself that he was a sole creator. And while

168
00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:01,160
Speaker 2: that was almost something of just a personal mythos, stan

169
00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:06,200
Speaker 2: also spoke at depositions in the favor of Marvel and

170
00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:10,160
Speaker 2: against his creators getting rights, getting original art, and getting money.

171
00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:12,360
Speaker 2: So he did end up doing this on the backs

172
00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:15,040
Speaker 2: of other people. And that's why someone like Neil has

173
00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:18,400
Speaker 2: such a personal investment in this because while like me

174
00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:20,560
Speaker 2: and you, we talk about Jack Kirby all the time,

175
00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:23,560
Speaker 2: I feel like since thor Ragnarok there's been a more

176
00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:28,160
Speaker 2: wide appreciation of Kirby and his influence. It did take

177
00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:33,000
Speaker 2: decades to get there, including a very long lawsuit that

178
00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:36,680
Speaker 2: ended up with a settlement between Marvel and the Kirby family.

179
00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:40,200
Speaker 2: Because something that people might not know is that when

180
00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:44,120
Speaker 2: these creators were creating these characters, they were not working

181
00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:47,440
Speaker 2: under what we call work for Higher agreements. So these

182
00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:51,760
Speaker 2: characters were created and the people who created them actually

183
00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:55,480
Speaker 2: did have some kind of claim to them, but as

184
00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:58,360
Speaker 2: happened with Siegel and Schuster and Superman, in the case

185
00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:02,840
Speaker 2: of Marvel, those essentially ended up becoming the property of

186
00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:06,120
Speaker 2: Marvel due to payment agreements that they made. A lot

187
00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:08,720
Speaker 2: of the creators actually had to just sign over those

188
00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:12,120
Speaker 2: rights to get their checks. Yeah, and that happened in

189
00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:15,400
Speaker 2: the seventies, So there is a lot of history here.

190
00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:18,640
Speaker 2: And I watched the documentary, I actually found that it

191
00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:20,760
Speaker 2: was quite sad. That was kind of how I felt

192
00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:22,679
Speaker 2: about it. Even made me feel quite sad for Stan

193
00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:26,120
Speaker 2: and I've written quite extensively about this history and his

194
00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:29,160
Speaker 2: role in the way that creators were treated at Marvel.

195
00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:32,600
Speaker 2: But I think Neil was right to do this, and

196
00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:35,200
Speaker 2: I think that everyone should watch the documentary because I

197
00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:38,080
Speaker 2: think it actually doesn't paint Stan in the light that

198
00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:40,920
Speaker 2: I'm sure Disney Plus wanted them to, because it is

199
00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:42,960
Speaker 2: all told in his own words, so you can catch

200
00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:45,520
Speaker 2: a lot of the contradictions that he would say in

201
00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:48,520
Speaker 2: the way he would change these stories. But it's very

202
00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:52,480
Speaker 2: interesting to see people talking about this and recognizing it

203
00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:56,160
Speaker 2: and having conversations now with a more literate audience. Like

204
00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:59,480
Speaker 2: you pointed out when you read that Jonathan Ross interview quote,

205
00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:01,240
Speaker 2: you just know if you read comics, that's just not

206
00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:03,160
Speaker 2: how it is. But you have to be able to

207
00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:05,559
Speaker 2: draw it to claim, you know, you'll the soule create

208
00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:06,280
Speaker 2: a Yeah.

209
00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:11,320
Speaker 1: And I think, more broadly speaking and creative collaboration, there

210
00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:18,199
Speaker 1: is no scientific way to in all cases accurately gauge

211
00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:23,840
Speaker 1: what a person's influence on a particular project that is

212
00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:27,439
Speaker 1: created through creative collaboration is. At any given time. If

213
00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:31,160
Speaker 1: Stan says, okay, I have Spider Man, then gives it

214
00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:34,200
Speaker 1: to Steve and Jack and they draw it up. You've

215
00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:36,240
Speaker 1: got to figure out a way to split that that

216
00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:40,920
Speaker 1: is going to probably make somebody feel bad in order

217
00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:44,679
Speaker 1: for it to be equitable. Like I personally think, you've

218
00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:47,600
Speaker 1: just got to come somewhere to fifty to fifty in

219
00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:49,559
Speaker 1: stuff like this. Now somebody is going to feel like, well,

220
00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:52,040
Speaker 1: I did more work and I brought this person in.

221
00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:53,960
Speaker 1: And that's always the way it works with this stuff.

222
00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:57,079
Speaker 1: But there's just no way to accurately do it. Somebody

223
00:11:57,120 --> 00:11:59,880
Speaker 1: has to be the person who says, let's just share it.

224
00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:02,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot exactly. I actually think that it sounds

225
00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:05,000
Speaker 2: so simple, but that's what was missing a lot of

226
00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:07,280
Speaker 2: the time. Like a lot of what the documentary focuses

227
00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:09,760
Speaker 2: on when it does bring this stuff up is Stan's

228
00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:12,959
Speaker 2: reaction to it, And sadly, his reaction was, I am

229
00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:15,920
Speaker 2: the sole creator. I came up with these ideas, and

230
00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:21,240
Speaker 2: that then creates this cycle where people are unfairly pushed

231
00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:23,520
Speaker 2: out of crediting, and especially with Spider Man is a

232
00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:26,240
Speaker 2: really great example. So Steve Ditko is now seen as

233
00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:28,440
Speaker 2: the co creator of Spider Man. And before he passed away,

234
00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:31,320
Speaker 2: you know, he was very isolated. He kept to himself.

235
00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:33,000
Speaker 2: He did a lot of great self publishing, a lot

236
00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:35,520
Speaker 2: of which spoke about his issues with Stanley, but he

237
00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:37,920
Speaker 2: ended up getting checks from Spider Man. He kind of

238
00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:40,440
Speaker 2: got a little bit more of that equity. But Spider

239
00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:42,840
Speaker 2: Man was originally drawn by Jack Kirby, as you pointed out,

240
00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:46,040
Speaker 2: and then standing like the way it looked. But allegedly

241
00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:49,160
Speaker 2: there are also a version of the story where Jack

242
00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:51,640
Speaker 2: had come up with that idea before with Joe Simon

243
00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:54,079
Speaker 2: about a Spider Man character. And then there is the

244
00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:56,959
Speaker 2: very controversial fact that the Spider Man costume looks like

245
00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:00,240
Speaker 2: a costume that a Halloween company had been making. So

246
00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:03,320
Speaker 2: there's all this kind of blurry conversation around it that

247
00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:05,760
Speaker 2: comes from the fact that these were stories being made

248
00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:08,240
Speaker 2: for what was seen as a disposable medium for kids,

249
00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:11,000
Speaker 2: that people were getting paid like no money to write

250
00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:14,200
Speaker 2: and draw. And it's kind of funny to now have

251
00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:17,959
Speaker 2: to extrapolate this when it's about like a billion dollar project.

252
00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:21,040
Speaker 1: I think the thing to your point that's sad about

253
00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:27,520
Speaker 1: this for me is setting aside all of Stanley's self aggrandizement,

254
00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:31,319
Speaker 1: just the stuff that you can absolutely say with authority

255
00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:35,319
Speaker 1: that Stanley was responsible for that the promotion of comics

256
00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:39,040
Speaker 1: and Marvel in particular advocacy. Steve Dicko you mentioned was

257
00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:43,880
Speaker 1: a you know, was a ann Randian shut in who

258
00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:49,199
Speaker 1: had no inclination to be the front facing salesman for comics.

259
00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:51,480
Speaker 2: He didn't even want them to publish pictures of him.

260
00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:52,520
Speaker 2: There's barely any.

261
00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:55,480
Speaker 1: Jack Kirby was a kind of rough and tumble guy

262
00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:58,040
Speaker 1: who did not have the kind of charm and like

263
00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:03,199
Speaker 1: eagerness to hoobknob that Stanley had. That's like not nothing

264
00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:07,280
Speaker 1: being the promotional guy for comics and coming up with

265
00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:08,760
Speaker 1: a lot of you know, he did come up with

266
00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:11,480
Speaker 1: a lot of the ideas, and while the Marvel method

267
00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:17,199
Speaker 1: was created ad hoc to deal with what the structure

268
00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:19,280
Speaker 1: of Marvel was at the time, it was not like

269
00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:25,400
Speaker 1: a strategized system. It also gave him like tremendous influence

270
00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:27,600
Speaker 1: in the stories that were created. So I think what's

271
00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:30,240
Speaker 1: sad about this is it overshadows the stuff that he

272
00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:34,760
Speaker 1: really did do, which is tremendous, like really really important stuff. Yeah.

273
00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:36,920
Speaker 2: I think that's the saddest thing is that in creating

274
00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:40,760
Speaker 2: this personal legend and then in posthumously, like with stand

275
00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:44,360
Speaker 2: now passed away in Disney trying to carve this idea

276
00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:48,560
Speaker 2: that he was some golden child who did everything himself. Yeah,

277
00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:50,920
Speaker 2: you rub away the reality of the whole man. And

278
00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:52,680
Speaker 2: like you said, this is what I always say. I wrote.

279
00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:54,560
Speaker 2: I wrote an a bituary for Stanley that I'm really

280
00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:58,000
Speaker 2: proud of Esquy Magazine when he passed away, and it

281
00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:00,760
Speaker 2: was essentially a history of all of this stuff. And

282
00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:04,760
Speaker 2: I always say, brilliant editor, unbelievable editor. A lot of

283
00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:06,520
Speaker 2: what he talks about when he talks about writing, he

284
00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:09,040
Speaker 2: was just editing someone else's story and giving them ideas

285
00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:11,600
Speaker 2: and notes. He's an incredible talent spot I look at

286
00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:14,880
Speaker 2: the people he surrounded himself. Yeah, John Bushma, Steve Ditko,

287
00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:17,720
Speaker 2: Jack Kirby. Also, he is also one of the original

288
00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:20,520
Speaker 2: NEPO babies. They actually don't really talk about that very much.

289
00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:22,680
Speaker 2: So yes, you know, he got his job at Marvel

290
00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:25,480
Speaker 2: because of his cousin and stuff like that. But he's

291
00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:28,640
Speaker 2: also an unbelievable advocate for comics. Like you said, he

292
00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:31,720
Speaker 2: went on college tours. He made comics. They were taken

293
00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:34,240
Speaker 2: seriously in an academic way for the first time because

294
00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:35,800
Speaker 2: he would go and tour and he knew that there

295
00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:37,920
Speaker 2: were teenagers who read this stuff, there were adults who

296
00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:40,160
Speaker 2: read it. He would go on late night talk shows.

297
00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:44,160
Speaker 2: He moved to Hollywood, and that's why you have TV

298
00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:46,440
Speaker 2: based on comic books in the way that we understand,

299
00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:48,120
Speaker 2: and all of those things are amazing.

300
00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:50,920
Speaker 1: He had been working since the early seventies to try

301
00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:54,320
Speaker 1: and make Marvel Yeah, have an impact in TV and film,

302
00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:55,760
Speaker 1: and then a lot of the stuff that we see

303
00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:58,600
Speaker 1: now is because he put that flag out there in

304
00:15:58,640 --> 00:15:59,280
Speaker 1: the seventies.

305
00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:01,560
Speaker 2: He has his first cameo in the Marvel universe is

306
00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:03,760
Speaker 2: in one of the old Incredible Hulk TV movies. You know,

307
00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:05,400
Speaker 2: this is something he was doing for a long time.

308
00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:10,520
Speaker 2: And it is sad that the controversies, which I will

309
00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:12,680
Speaker 2: say he did have a big hand in creating. So

310
00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:15,680
Speaker 2: it's kind of like the conversation needs to be holistic

311
00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:18,040
Speaker 2: and talk about what he did great and what he

312
00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:21,280
Speaker 2: did wrong. And I think the sad truth is in

313
00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:23,800
Speaker 2: this case, all Neil and his family are looking for

314
00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:26,360
Speaker 2: is where's the Jack Kirby documentary. If you have the

315
00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:28,840
Speaker 2: Jack Kirby documentary that talks about all the things that

316
00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:33,360
Speaker 2: Jack did, then nobody worries about the Stanley documentary. Because

317
00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:35,400
Speaker 2: it wouldn't be raising Jack. So I think it's all

318
00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:38,960
Speaker 2: about equity. Even now, it's still about who created it,

319
00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:43,840
Speaker 2: who's getting the credit, and who is celebrated for these

320
00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:46,080
Speaker 2: stories that we all love. And I think in this case,

321
00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:50,240
Speaker 2: whatever deal the Kirby's made with Disney, I think this

322
00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:54,240
Speaker 2: somehow goes against that deal because Neil has generally been

323
00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:56,640
Speaker 2: very supportive. They were at the back Panther premiere. It

324
00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:59,160
Speaker 2: seemed like Disney and the Kirby Estate were in a

325
00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:03,200
Speaker 2: good place and this seems to go against whatever they

326
00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:04,000
Speaker 2: agreed on.

327
00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:08,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I also think that you know, listen, we're comics

328
00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:12,320
Speaker 1: nerds here. This feud and story is really not one

329
00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:15,359
Speaker 1: that moves beyond the bubble of comics nerds.

330
00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:15,640
Speaker 3: Hum.

331
00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:20,199
Speaker 1: And I think it's absolutely believable and reasonable to me

332
00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:24,000
Speaker 1: that very view if any people responsible for moving this

333
00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:29,120
Speaker 1: documentary down the line from production to the platform had

334
00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:32,439
Speaker 1: any awareness of the kind of heat that is behind

335
00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:38,360
Speaker 1: this particular topic. X Ray Vision will be back. Quick

336
00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:40,479
Speaker 1: reminder folks that we will be live streaming our fifteenth

337
00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:44,160
Speaker 1: Anniversary of The Dark Knight retrospective episode on June twenty six,

338
00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:49,000
Speaker 1: seven pm Pacific time. Join us. Jason and Rosie Live

339
00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:51,639
Speaker 1: with guests Chase Serano and Joel Monique for one of

340
00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:54,600
Speaker 1: a kind of analysis, movie lore and much more. For

341
00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:57,200
Speaker 1: live stream tickets, head to cricket dot com slash x

342
00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:05,680
Speaker 1: ray Live and we're back, moving on to an a topic,

343
00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:09,320
Speaker 1: to another heated topic. So a Secret Invasion. We're recording

344
00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:13,359
Speaker 1: this on Wednesday. Came out late Tuesday night and early

345
00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:18,600
Speaker 1: Wednesday morning. It emerged that the credits sequence the opening

346
00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:22,080
Speaker 1: credits for Secret Invasion were created in some form of

347
00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:28,760
Speaker 1: fashion using AI. Here is a quote from Polygon quoting

348
00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:33,000
Speaker 1: the director Ali Salim. This is from the article from Polygon. Quote.

349
00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:35,760
Speaker 1: Like many people, Slim says he doesn't really understand how

350
00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:38,280
Speaker 1: the artificial intelligence works, but was fascinated with the ways

351
00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:41,040
Speaker 1: in which AI could translate the sense of foreboding he

352
00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:44,880
Speaker 1: wanted for the series. The article continues. Method Studios did

353
00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:47,640
Speaker 1: not respond to Polygon's requests for comment about how exactly

354
00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:51,960
Speaker 1: design the sequence. The staff for the credits includes producers, designers,

355
00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:54,840
Speaker 1: and an AI technician, but the company had previously worked

356
00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:57,639
Speaker 1: on Marvel shows like Miss Marvel, Loki, and Moonnight. In

357
00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:01,760
Speaker 1: addition to Game of Thrones, Battle the Back, Stard's Great episode,

358
00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:07,880
Speaker 1: and for All Mankind seasons two and three, some more

359
00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:12,399
Speaker 1: contacts from Gizmoto. While Method Studios work on those was

360
00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:15,960
Speaker 1: seemingly on a more traditional side of VFX production, it

361
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:18,840
Speaker 1: was approached for Secret Invasion to instead use AI generated

362
00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:20,840
Speaker 1: imagery for using the titles. Now, of course, there's a

363
00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:25,320
Speaker 1: backlash in this. AI is a subject of a lot

364
00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:27,760
Speaker 1: of heated debate because of the fears that it could

365
00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:30,399
Speaker 1: is taking creative's jobs. I think those fears are foundered.

366
00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:32,200
Speaker 1: We've talked about that on this podcast.

367
00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:35,320
Speaker 2: We know it's based extensively on plagiarized art the way

368
00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:36,120
Speaker 2: that they trained.

369
00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:39,879
Speaker 1: Yeah. Right. And also, you know, the industry is in

370
00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:43,439
Speaker 1: the midst of negotiating deals or you know of a

371
00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:46,640
Speaker 1: labor action with WGA in which the role of AI

372
00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:49,160
Speaker 1: and any kind of future deal plays a major role.

373
00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:53,720
Speaker 1: AI was addressed in the dga's deal that it was

374
00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:56,840
Speaker 1: struck with the AMPTP. So this is a heated topic

375
00:19:56,880 --> 00:20:01,199
Speaker 1: and people feel very passionate about it. Rosie, what are

376
00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:01,960
Speaker 1: your thoughts.

377
00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:09,439
Speaker 2: I think this is a worrying development only in that

378
00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:13,320
Speaker 2: it feels like the conversation that we have all been

379
00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:15,879
Speaker 2: having on this podcast. This has really been less than

380
00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:18,640
Speaker 2: a year of conversation, and I think part of the

381
00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:22,600
Speaker 2: reason that the backlash has been so strong, even though,

382
00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:25,040
Speaker 2: as you know, you've pointed out really well when we've

383
00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:27,879
Speaker 2: been talking about this offline, is like, we don't know

384
00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:30,399
Speaker 2: what the workflow is like, we don't know how the

385
00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:34,199
Speaker 2: AI imagery was used. But I understand the backlash and

386
00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:38,159
Speaker 2: I understand why people are worried because this feels like

387
00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:42,920
Speaker 2: it has happened incredibly quickly from the conversation of oh

388
00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:44,560
Speaker 2: AI might be used by studios.

389
00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:44,719
Speaker 3: Now.

390
00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:47,600
Speaker 2: AI has been used before by Disney as a tool

391
00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:50,720
Speaker 2: to dage people, like in Indiana Jones the new movie, right,

392
00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:53,679
Speaker 2: but this is the first time that AI generated imagery

393
00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:56,560
Speaker 2: has been used in Marvel, and it is I think

394
00:20:56,600 --> 00:21:00,760
Speaker 2: another reason the backlash has been so big. It looks

395
00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:04,320
Speaker 2: a lot like what we've seen when people have used AI,

396
00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:08,600
Speaker 2: things like Mid Journey. The images specifically that have been

397
00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:09,119
Speaker 2: coming up.

398
00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:13,879
Speaker 1: It looks like pre mid Journey, I forget it. It

399
00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:17,960
Speaker 1: looks like Dolly generated Dodges, which is like a generation

400
00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:21,040
Speaker 1: and a half behind previous to Mid Journey.

401
00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:24,120
Speaker 2: And I think that is quite alarming to people because

402
00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:27,680
Speaker 2: even though we don't know exactly how it was used

403
00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:30,320
Speaker 2: and whether this was some VFX art that they created

404
00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:33,760
Speaker 2: themselves and then did through an AI generated whatever version

405
00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:36,720
Speaker 2: it was. I think it worries people because this looks

406
00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:39,400
Speaker 2: like they use something like Dahli and mid Journey, and

407
00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:44,960
Speaker 2: that takes away from potentially jobs that could go to artists.

408
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:47,119
Speaker 2: And also there is a tradition I would say, I

409
00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:49,600
Speaker 2: think the reason this has hit so hard as a

410
00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:52,479
Speaker 2: Marvel show think about the Dead Evil credit sequence that

411
00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,280
Speaker 2: kind of changed the game with how people saw credit

412
00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:58,680
Speaker 2: sequences in Prestige TV, and I think Marvel has really

413
00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:00,919
Speaker 2: been a place where people we have felt even the

414
00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:02,960
Speaker 2: Sheeholt credits that were at the end of the show

415
00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:05,960
Speaker 2: where it was the beautiful illustration, I think Marvel has

416
00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:10,320
Speaker 2: set a precedent for artistic credit sequences that set up

417
00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:13,000
Speaker 2: the tone of the show. And I think that also

418
00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:16,600
Speaker 2: worries people because if the precedent is now that they're

419
00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:20,119
Speaker 2: willing to use AI vendors, let's use Ali Slim's words,

420
00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:23,600
Speaker 2: I think that makes people. Even people who have worked

421
00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:25,760
Speaker 2: on the show in VFX have come out and said

422
00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:27,520
Speaker 2: they're quite upset by this choice.

423
00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:31,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, well on one person to be accurate, I think

424
00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:32,280
Speaker 1: I saw.

425
00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:34,280
Speaker 2: Cartoon Brew has a really good one that has like

426
00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:36,640
Speaker 2: a few different people who've come out at this point

427
00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:40,159
Speaker 2: and talked about their kind of disappointment in it. But

428
00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:43,239
Speaker 2: it's I think it's a shame that this choice has

429
00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:46,760
Speaker 2: overshadowed the show because this is the conversation about the show.

430
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:49,520
Speaker 1: Now here's where I'm at. I think that we're eventually

431
00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:51,760
Speaker 1: going to get to a place listen, AI is coming, right,

432
00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:55,200
Speaker 1: it's the idea is that, yeah, it's here. The idea

433
00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:59,520
Speaker 1: is to place humans in a position of primacy in

434
00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:03,199
Speaker 1: the work flow. If for instance, which we don't know

435
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:05,280
Speaker 1: because we don't know how this was created yet.

436
00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:07,960
Speaker 2: We haven't had a comment from Method or Marvel.

437
00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:10,320
Speaker 1: Yet, right, you mentioned that as used for a lot

438
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:14,919
Speaker 1: of things, particularly for daging. If Method, which is a

439
00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:19,760
Speaker 1: VFX house staff by artists, if the artist said Method decide, well,

440
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:22,560
Speaker 1: you know, Marvel said they wanted something that looks like Dolly,

441
00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:27,400
Speaker 1: so they decided to use some kind of AI generated

442
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,600
Speaker 1: imagery as like almost like a filter, you know, like

443
00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:33,840
Speaker 1: the way like a plug in, And it was the

444
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:37,919
Speaker 1: human that was directing this and using it as a tool.

445
00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:40,639
Speaker 1: I don't necessarily have a problem with that, and the

446
00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:46,119
Speaker 1: issue of image plagiarism, even to me, is ameliorated by

447
00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:50,280
Speaker 1: the fact that this is Marvel's imagery. This is Disney's imagery.

448
00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:53,320
Speaker 1: It's not like you're not going out and taking somebody's

449
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:57,760
Speaker 1: drawing yeah of Nick Fury, which Marvel would own anyway,

450
00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:00,640
Speaker 1: and and plugging it into the thing and saying, okay,

451
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:06,080
Speaker 1: do it in a style of some like other person. Right, Theoretically,

452
00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:10,040
Speaker 1: if it's an artist making a decision to use a tool,

453
00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:13,679
Speaker 1: I don't necessarily have a problem with that, because I

454
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:18,679
Speaker 1: think that that's probably the best version of where we're headed,

455
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:23,159
Speaker 1: is if creatives and on the writing side it's completely different.

456
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:27,280
Speaker 1: But on the visual side, if the visual artist decides, hey,

457
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:29,159
Speaker 1: you know what would really help here is running this

458
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,840
Speaker 1: through this thing and to create this effect, I don't

459
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:36,360
Speaker 1: necessarily have a problem with it. But it's worrying and

460
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:39,560
Speaker 1: some transparency, transparency, I think is the issue would be

461
00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:43,240
Speaker 1: great now. The transparency on the transparency side. I also

462
00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:46,479
Speaker 1: feel like, you know, what's the saying like, don't assign

463
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:51,880
Speaker 1: to malice? What can easy ability assigned to incompetence? I

464
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:56,280
Speaker 1: think that there's a world where Disney pr was not

465
00:24:56,400 --> 00:25:01,480
Speaker 1: expecting to have a heated debate about AI to Wednesday Mornings,

466
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:04,960
Speaker 1: specifically around the credit sequence to Secret Evasion, And I

467
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:10,640
Speaker 1: think the kind of sloppy way that Ali Salim kind

468
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:15,000
Speaker 1: of talks about the process says to me that this

469
00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:18,040
Speaker 1: being a hot button topic was on nobody's nobody thought.

470
00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:21,359
Speaker 1: I agree that this would be an emotionally charged topic

471
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:22,800
Speaker 1: that they would all of a sudden have to have

472
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,920
Speaker 1: a very detailed statement about. And if I'm method, I'm

473
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:29,119
Speaker 1: now all of a sudden, you're looking at a situation

474
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:36,400
Speaker 1: where you have to coordinate your comments with Disney pr

475
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:39,040
Speaker 1: which was not a thing you have to expect. And

476
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,080
Speaker 1: in that sense, I think that there's probably a world

477
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:45,159
Speaker 1: in which the silence at this point is just the

478
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 1: fact that they're like, oh shit, we have to figure

479
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:49,000
Speaker 1: out we have to comment on this now, and we

480
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 1: have to figure out what it is that said. I

481
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 1: would love to know how this was created.

482
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:56,160
Speaker 2: I think that there's been some great tweets about people

483
00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:57,880
Speaker 2: just being like, we just want to know the production.

484
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:00,199
Speaker 2: We just want to know how it was produced. If,

485
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:02,800
Speaker 2: as you say, it is a tool that is being used,

486
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:04,720
Speaker 2: which is something that people have kind of been selling

487
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:06,800
Speaker 2: as one of the boons for AI for a long time,

488
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 2: then that would actually be, like you said, the best

489
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 2: case scenario of a studio using it. The problem is

490
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:14,239
Speaker 2: because people don't know it's and what people do know

491
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,720
Speaker 2: is dari a mid journey. If it's an AI generator

492
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 2: that's been trained off of stolen art, then that worries people.

493
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 2: If it's something where this was a job that twenty

494
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 2: people could do and now five are doing it, that

495
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 2: worries people. And I do think really this all comes

496
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 2: down to the way that the director chose to speak

497
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:35,520
Speaker 2: about it, even saying things like when we approached AI vendors,

498
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 2: that immediately makes people go, okay, well you're approaching people

499
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 2: to use AI instead of just you know, going to

500
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:43,640
Speaker 2: a studio and saying, hey, can you make this look

501
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:45,119
Speaker 2: like it AI? But like good.

502
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:47,920
Speaker 1: He's quoted as saying he doesn't really understand how AI works,

503
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 1: which is I think a sloppy way to comment about it.

504
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:55,280
Speaker 1: But honestly, it looks bad and it looks like it

505
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 1: is not a thing necessarily that you should say in

506
00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:00,600
Speaker 1: that way. But also it may come as a surprise

507
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 1: to some people, like who aren't around the industry or

508
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 1: It's very often that people involved in one field don't

509
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 1: know how the other field works.

510
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:11,359
Speaker 2: That's the problem with the VFX issues Marvel's been having.

511
00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:14,120
Speaker 2: We've had heard them say, dict just don't know how

512
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 2: the VFX process went.

513
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:18,680
Speaker 1: Take AI out of it. Does we know how like

514
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 1: like VFX rendered me? Probably not.

515
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:23,720
Speaker 2: Do they know how many shots that go into one

516
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 2: action sequence? You know? And how many people you need

517
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 2: to work on it? How much time?

518
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,879
Speaker 1: Now again we're wait. I'm perfectly happy to be irate

519
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:33,119
Speaker 1: about this once we get more information. I don't. I

520
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:35,399
Speaker 1: just don't think we have it yet. And I will say,

521
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:41,360
Speaker 1: as a final thing, I would much prefer that, though

522
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:45,280
Speaker 1: there are obviously going to be power dynamics within any company,

523
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:49,000
Speaker 1: any VFX company, between workers and management, et cetera, I

524
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:53,880
Speaker 1: would much rather have a company of VFX workers, artists,

525
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:59,880
Speaker 1: crafts people decide how to use AI. Then studios decide

526
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 1: how to use AI in lieu of artists. I would

527
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:10,440
Speaker 1: rather that decision come from artists rather than studios. Now

528
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,880
Speaker 1: here's the thing. I'm gonna get paranoid now. Now I'm

529
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 1: going to go full paranoia to close this.

530
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 2: Conversation, perfect sevasion.

531
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 1: It's appropriate it is appropriate. You know, we know a

532
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:24,440
Speaker 1: lot about how Dolly about how Mid Journey are programmed, right,

533
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 1: they just scraped Getty other repositories of visual images DV

534
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:35,879
Speaker 1: and art right, and that art probably contained amateur, you know,

535
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:41,400
Speaker 1: depictions of copyrighted characters, which most surely Mickey Mouse, et cetera,

536
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:45,360
Speaker 1: Superman whatever. We don't quite know yet, although it's uh.

537
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 1: Stories I have read have seemed to suggest that in

538
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 1: what is a suspicious tell like that mid Journey and

539
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 1: others have like avoided scraping Disney repositories account of legal

540
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 1: big corporate repositories. It's weird to me that like Disney

541
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 1: and other places haven't threatened to sue because their stuff

542
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 1: is in there. And this is the same thing with

543
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 1: the large language models, you know, like this is a

544
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 1: this has been raised, you know, like every script that's

545
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 1: on the internet. If you go right now and be like, oh,

546
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 1: I want to how do they how what are the

547
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 1: what are the shooting script for Community season one? The pilot?

548
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 1: Look like, let me get that. That's surely without question

549
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 1: in the large language models like chet GBT. Right now,

550
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 1: why isn't Universal sued? Why how if your IP is

551
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 1: being used to train this thing. Why aren't these companies

552
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 1: being like stop it or we own.

553
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 2: Part of this.

554
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 1: That's the part that worries me. The charge to like

555
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 1: involve this stuff without any of the seeming aggressive litigation

556
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 1: that always seems to come with an infringement or an

557
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:56,480
Speaker 1: even suggestion of infringement on IP. That is the part

558
00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:58,720
Speaker 1: of it that worries me, because you know, if I'm

559
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 1: going to be completely it feels like some kind of

560
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 1: cacid agreement that said we need to know more about

561
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 1: this particular subject vis a vis the Secret Invasion opening credits.

562
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,720
Speaker 1: But it's suspicious, and I'm glad people are raising hell

563
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:17,960
Speaker 1: about it because I think it's important that the platforms

564
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 1: and these studios understand that people are very concerned about

565
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 1: this topic.

566
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I totally agree. Also, very interesting. Hollywood Reporter

567
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 2: just wrote a piece about how Samuel L. Jackson had

568
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 2: talked about ever since you know, the prequels, he crosses

569
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:39,000
Speaker 2: out anything about his AI likeness being used in the future.

570
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 2: So that's just kind of funny that we have this

571
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 2: duel space, especially because let's be real, I saw Samuel

572
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:48,640
Speaker 2: Jackson's face in that AI, so I wonder how he's

573
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 2: feeling about Secram Page.

574
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 1: I always wondered, I mean, this is off topic. I

575
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 1: always wondered, like how Sam's reps responded to him just

576
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 1: being straight ripped off in the ultimate.

577
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 2: Okay, so this is just the room, This is just

578
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 2: the comic shop rumor. But allegedly his people just like

579
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 2: called Marvel and were like, wtf put me in this?

580
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:14,640
Speaker 2: That was generally that's generally the rule that I've heard,

581
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 2: because Sam Love's comics, so they thought it would be okay.

582
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 2: But yeah, I think that is exactly what happened. Basically,

583
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 2: that's that's one of those great comic book rumors. So yeah,

584
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 2: wild stuff. And now there he is lead in Secret Invasion.

585
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 1: Okay, well let's talk about Secret Invasion. We're stepping out

586
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:48,960
Speaker 1: of their locking onto the streets of Moscow the Russian

587
00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 1: Federation for the premiere of Secret Invasion, now streaming on

588
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:55,640
Speaker 1: Disney Plus. Episode one, titled Resurrection, directed by Ali Slim,

589
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 1: written by Kyle Bradstreet and Brian Tucker, The show started

590
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:04,840
Speaker 1: Samuel L. Jackson, of course, reprising his role as Nick Fury,

591
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 1: Ben Mendelssohn as Talos, Kingsley, Benadere as Gravic Amelia Clark

592
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 1: as Gia, and Olivia Coleman wonderfully as Sonya Fallsworth and others.

593
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:16,880
Speaker 2: Oh, the best part of the show.

594
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:19,120
Speaker 1: Oh, there's a breath of fresh air when she arrives.

595
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 1: But let's get it that.

596
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 2: Okay.

597
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:23,920
Speaker 1: We open on the mosque in Moscow, Russian Federation. CIA

598
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 1: agent Everett Ross, still employed despite the fact that he

599
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 1: was betraying the agency to Wakanda, I think for the

600
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 1: right reasons but still correct, meets with an undercover agent

601
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 1: named Prescott. Press has a theory that several seemingly unconnected

602
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 1: terrorist attacks around the globe are all connected and the

603
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 1: Scrulls are behind them. The Skrulls, the theory goes, were

604
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 1: promised a home world by Nick Fur and Carol during

605
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 1: the events of fucking Captain Marvel. Yeah, thirty plus years

606
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 1: ago and in the past now, and they're fucking tired

607
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:02,040
Speaker 1: of waiting. They've been eating too long, three going on

608
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 1: four decades now, Yeah, for the home world, and so

609
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 1: they're taking action. They're sewing unrest and chaos in the

610
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 1: world in order to undermine governments so that they can

611
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 1: colonize Earth. Ross points out that, hey, I saw Captain Marmora.

612
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 1: You saw Captain w there's on like twelve scrolls.

613
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 2: They were gell, they were friendly, they were chill.

614
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 1: And most of them were kids. There was like not

615
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:28,680
Speaker 1: a lot of them. And Prescott says, you idiot, you fool,

616
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 1: you fool, you ignoramus, just idiot.

617
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 2: They can look like anyone. They you don't even know

618
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 2: how many there can be.

619
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 1: And meanwhile, where's Fury, Well, this is happening. Where's he?

620
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:42,959
Speaker 1: He's disappeared. Well, apparently he's on SABER, which is the

621
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 1: name acronym yet to be defined. I'm gonna guess it's

622
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 1: space air bomb energy something I don't know.

623
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 2: I like that. Yeah, I'm very interested.

624
00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 1: They haven't divided yet.

625
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 2: I don't believe they have actually acknowledged it. Yeah, and

626
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 2: Marvel loves an outrageous acronym, as we know, so that'll

627
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 2: be very exciting to see.

628
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:10,400
Speaker 1: So Fury's apparently on SABER, which is both a outer

629
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:17,200
Speaker 1: space defense agency which Fury is basically spearheading, and the

630
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 1: name of the main outer space base that Fury has

631
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:26,239
Speaker 1: been chilling on low these several past years. This is

632
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:31,760
Speaker 1: obviously so they made Sword right, the Sentient Machine Research

633
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:35,760
Speaker 1: Defense Organization and so now Saber is basically what Sword

634
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:36,840
Speaker 1: was in the comics.

635
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:40,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, That's basically how it feels.

636
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:44,279
Speaker 1: Which is focused on aliens. Everett then says, well, Fury's

637
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,200
Speaker 1: in space and I can't go to him with some

638
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:49,880
Speaker 1: crazy theory unless you have evidence. In Prescott's like, okay,

639
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:52,359
Speaker 1: look at this tablet. And he's got this tablet that

640
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:56,920
Speaker 1: has these hologram videos and various charts and graphs on

641
00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 1: it that apparently has Ross intrigued. And so he he's like, okay,

642
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:03,879
Speaker 1: I will take this tablet to Fury and we'll see

643
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 1: what he says. And now Prescott is looking at Everett

644
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 1: Ross like are you a scroll? And he takes like

645
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 1: some rubber tubing and wraps it around everittt Ross's neck

646
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:16,239
Speaker 1: and just starts choking him the fuck out because he's like,

647
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:18,239
Speaker 1: you're a scroll and you're trying to steal my shit.

648
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:21,279
Speaker 1: Ross shoots the man dead and then goes fleeing through

649
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 1: the dark and Russian streets, and he soon realizes that

650
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,759
Speaker 1: someone's following him. He's radioing for an extraction team. The

651
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 1: chase goes across the rooftops and then Ross ends up

652
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:33,319
Speaker 1: falling to the street like three four stories down.

653
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:36,719
Speaker 2: Oh, it's really grim. It's like a brutal drop.

654
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 1: Very very far drop. His leg's clearly shattered. Maria Hill

655
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 1: arrives on the scene just then to find him there

656
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:47,440
Speaker 1: laying on the ground, and then Ross's pursuer runs up.

657
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:50,360
Speaker 1: She draws down on him. But guess what the pursuer

658
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:53,760
Speaker 1: is Taylor's and Ross also a scroll.

659
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 2: Okay, this is the most important question I have for

660
00:35:56,600 --> 00:36:00,160
Speaker 2: you from this episode. Yeah. Yeah, was Ross always a scroll?

661
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 2: I don't think so from what they show us in

662
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,279
Speaker 2: this episode and what we learn here, I was kind

663
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:09,680
Speaker 2: of mad when this opening happened. One because it's it

664
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 2: would be a great reveal, but two because one of

665
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 2: my favorite things about Secret Invasion, which I talked last episode,

666
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:16,319
Speaker 2: we always talked about is the sea Wakanda and Die,

667
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:19,279
Speaker 2: which essentially establishes the idea that no scroll can get

668
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:21,560
Speaker 2: into Wakanda. Yeah, so I was like, why they was

669
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:24,239
Speaker 2: nullifying the power of Wakanda in the MCU. But then

670
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:27,359
Speaker 2: I was like, I think this is a scroll. Who

671
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:32,320
Speaker 2: to get this specific information took on the visage of Ross,

672
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:35,320
Speaker 2: which means they must have captured Ross at some point.

673
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:37,319
Speaker 1: Right they have Ross, We'll get to that.

674
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:39,319
Speaker 2: I don't think that was a scroll who was in

675
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 2: Wakanda forever? What do you think?

676
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:45,080
Speaker 1: I don't know, but I think that is highly possible because,

677
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:48,720
Speaker 1: you know, a main plot point of almost every single

678
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:53,560
Speaker 1: scroll centric story, and certainly the two versions of Secret Evasion,

679
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 1: which we talked about last episode mm hmm, always involves

680
00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:00,120
Speaker 1: the Scrolls coming up with some way that they can

681
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 1: no longer be detected. So in Secret Invasion one, you know,

682
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:07,320
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, Wolverine couldn't smell them, magic couldn't

683
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:11,800
Speaker 1: detect them, and Read Richards scroll detecting shit didn't work anymore.

684
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:13,680
Speaker 1: And so like everybody's like, oh shit, the scrolls have

685
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:17,719
Speaker 1: up their dame. In twenty twenty two's Secret Invasion, right

686
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:20,840
Speaker 1: at the end of the first Secret Evasion, Read Richards

687
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:24,400
Speaker 1: had come up with a updated, you know, new firmware

688
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:29,920
Speaker 1: scull detector, right that was installed in like every government

689
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:34,800
Speaker 1: base across the world, the CIA, the MI I six,

690
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:38,439
Speaker 1: everybody had these, and of course like the Avengers, Fantastic four,

691
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:41,560
Speaker 1: the X Men had these scroll detecting systems in their

692
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:46,320
Speaker 1: you know, various installations. But guess what in that story

693
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:49,880
Speaker 1: semi spoiler, the Scrolls have figured out how to not

694
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:51,920
Speaker 1: be detective by that anymore, and they have to go

695
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:56,040
Speaker 1: to like basically the method from John Carpenter's the thing

696
00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:59,399
Speaker 1: in which they take the blood in like microreas. So

697
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 1: I think it's very possible that the Scrolls have figured

698
00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:08,000
Speaker 1: out how to beat Wakandans skrall detection. And it makes

699
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:11,759
Speaker 1: a lot of sense to me that it's a win

700
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:17,960
Speaker 1: for Scroll agents to get access to Wakanda and be

701
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 1: involved with decision binging at the highest level of Wakandan government.

702
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:28,720
Speaker 2: Also, if the Scroll rebellion as it is being shown

703
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:33,240
Speaker 2: in this premiere is sick of like humans on Earth

704
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 2: and the way they've treated the Scroll refugees, that could

705
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:42,240
Speaker 2: also explain why Everett Ross was surprisingly sympathetic and compassionate

706
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 2: to the Wakandans when everyone was like, who's this CIA agent?

707
00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:48,480
Speaker 2: Why would they care? Well, he turned on the American government,

708
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 2: he turned on his ex wife. This could explain it.

709
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:54,880
Speaker 2: I like that, I like that, I like that reading.

710
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:57,160
Speaker 1: I'll just say it's possible. I think it's very very

711
00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:00,400
Speaker 1: possible that he's been a Scroll potentially for several movies,

712
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:05,879
Speaker 1: which would be so crazy elsewhere. I guess who's back

713
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 1: on Earth. Maybe it's Nick Fury.

714
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:09,240
Speaker 2: Well, Nick feared. Why has he been?

715
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 1: He's been in Saber, he's been in space. A drop

716
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:15,840
Speaker 1: ship lands in Russia and Nick Fury gets off. His

717
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:21,360
Speaker 1: knee is a little balky. He's dressed very shabbily, I

718
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 1: think purposefully shabbily. He loves to do this when he

719
00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:26,040
Speaker 1: goes on the run, where a watchman's cap and like

720
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:31,880
Speaker 1: a bedraggled like car coat, and he looks a little older.

721
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:35,360
Speaker 1: And that's gonna be a major theme of this episode

722
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:38,759
Speaker 1: and probably this series is has Nick lost his fastball?

723
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 1: Has Nick lost it? Nick goes to meet Taylors. We

724
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:46,640
Speaker 1: learn that Taylos's partner Soren, has died off screen sometime

725
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 1: previous to this story.

726
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:50,360
Speaker 2: As you do when you're a wife in the MCU

727
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:53,239
Speaker 2: or in any Superherer story.

728
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:54,760
Speaker 1: As you do when you're a wife in the MCU,

729
00:39:54,960 --> 00:40:00,400
Speaker 1: and as you do when you're an actor that somehow

730
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:03,959
Speaker 1: didn't sign the five six, seven, eight nine picture deal

731
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:06,840
Speaker 1: because they didn't think they need you, which is probably

732
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:12,880
Speaker 1: what happened. Sorry to that son, Sorry to that soorin so,

733
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:15,799
Speaker 1: Nick is like, I'm so sorry about Soren, And you

734
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:18,239
Speaker 1: know how are you. And Taylors says that Soren was

735
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:21,600
Speaker 1: apparently worried around the time of her death about a

736
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:24,319
Speaker 1: thing that's happening right now, which is the rise of

737
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:30,120
Speaker 1: scrull nationalism Scroll nationalist extremists who are like, hey, I'm

738
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:33,319
Speaker 1: tired of Nick Feured dragging his feet for thirty five

739
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:35,440
Speaker 1: years for us to get home world, and we're looking

740
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:37,959
Speaker 1: to create something for ourselves right now. And the skull

741
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:41,680
Speaker 1: nationalist is named Gravic, and apparently Nick Fury has some

742
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:45,400
Speaker 1: history with Gravic, and of course Taylis does too. Apparently

743
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:49,520
Speaker 1: Taylos's daughter Jia is part of Gravic's cause now, and

744
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:53,360
Speaker 1: Taylos himself was kicked off the Scroll governing Council and

745
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:56,960
Speaker 1: Gravic took his place, and his message is really resonating

746
00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:00,920
Speaker 1: with these disaffected Scroll youths who you know were born

747
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:04,360
Speaker 1: during this time or shortly before the time of the

748
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:08,799
Speaker 1: alliance with humans. And apparently Gravic is set up these

749
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:12,880
Speaker 1: kind of like mini Scroll bases slash colonies in Russia,

750
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:17,000
Speaker 1: because Russia has all of these decommissioned nuclear power plants

751
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 1: that are just like teeming with radiation. Think Chernobyl and

752
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 1: scrolls have no problem with that kind of radiation. They

753
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:26,399
Speaker 1: just happily live there.

754
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:27,920
Speaker 2: For those who are going to be looking for who's

755
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:31,120
Speaker 2: a scroll? I feel like this feels like a good

756
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:33,040
Speaker 2: test of like if you want to know who a

757
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 2: scroll is going to be in this world. Sadly, I

758
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:37,360
Speaker 2: don't think we're going to get my pickle and strawberry

759
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:39,360
Speaker 2: tell I was hoping for. This does not seem like

760
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:43,160
Speaker 2: the comedic space for that. But I do think if

761
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:46,279
Speaker 2: in future episodes of this sixth episode series, if you

762
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 2: see somebody who's chill with some radiation, who's a human

763
00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:51,560
Speaker 2: or doesn't seem to be wearing a mask or is

764
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:54,640
Speaker 2: setting off a little Geiger counter or whatever, you're probably

765
00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:56,680
Speaker 2: looking at a scroll. I think this feels very much

766
00:41:56,760 --> 00:42:00,960
Speaker 2: like they're foreshadowing the importance of the idea that scrolls

767
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 2: are not impacted by radiation.

768
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:08,919
Speaker 1: You ready for this? Elena? Oh, everybody from Russia. As

769
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:12,680
Speaker 1: far as I am concerned, right now, Major Jor's suspect

770
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:17,000
Speaker 1: from being a scroll. I'm talking Natasha, I'm talking every

771
00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:18,360
Speaker 1: I'm talking her old family.

772
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:21,160
Speaker 2: We never saw her hit the ground when she drummed

773
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:21,920
Speaker 2: a format.

774
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:23,279
Speaker 1: We never saw it.

775
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 2: The gun I did serious though all of them.

776
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:30,160
Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, the whole Red God that just scrawls,

777
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:32,839
Speaker 4: the Green God, we need to think about it.

778
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:35,239
Speaker 2: I would love to see Elena come back. So I'm

779
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:39,640
Speaker 2: saying I like this as like the unexpectedify like everyone

780
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:40,920
Speaker 2: who's Russian is a scrawl.

781
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:48,160
Speaker 1: Now, Okay, So Prescott's intel was about what Gravih's plan is,

782
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 1: and apparently his plan is to foment a war between

783
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 1: the US and Russia by setting off dirty bombs, which

784
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:58,399
Speaker 1: will then be blamed I guess on the US and

785
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:04,080
Speaker 1: long term, Gravi wants to make the planet uninhabitable for humans.

786
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:07,200
Speaker 1: Radiation would certainly do the trick, and then guess what

787
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:10,680
Speaker 1: baby scrolls are riding high? We cut to Washington, d C.

788
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:14,760
Speaker 1: Where James Roady Rhodes out of his suit, walking quite

789
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:18,320
Speaker 1: well without any kind of seeming lasting effects.

790
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:20,160
Speaker 2: Doesn't have his cool suit anymore or anything.

791
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:24,960
Speaker 1: Is now an undefined high ranking member of it seems

792
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:29,080
Speaker 1: like the Defense Department. He might be the National Security advisor.

793
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:30,759
Speaker 2: He's walking for the President, who I'm gonna say is

794
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:34,640
Speaker 2: definitely a scroll. Listen, just want to put out them

795
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:37,800
Speaker 2: like I'm like one hundred percent short, dumb at mulroney,

796
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:39,360
Speaker 2: one of my all time favorite actors.

797
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:41,880
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure you're a Scarborough just putting out that.

798
00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:46,040
Speaker 1: So he's like, he updates the President Dermot mulroney, President

799
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:51,439
Speaker 1: Mulroney that Nick Fury is a wall from Saber. Nick

800
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:54,279
Speaker 1: Fury was not allowed to leave Saber the base and

801
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:58,640
Speaker 1: he has left, and more worryingly, right before he left,

802
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:01,360
Speaker 1: he got an encrypted message from his old, oh pal

803
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:06,360
Speaker 1: fucking collaborator, Maria Hill. You can't trust those two together,

804
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:09,800
Speaker 1: and who knows what they're up to, and so Potus

805
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 1: is just like, deal with it. That's all he says,

806
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:13,400
Speaker 1: is deal with it.

807
00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:15,960
Speaker 2: This is another question I have off this episode, right,

808
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:19,160
Speaker 2: So like, yeah, poor old Nick Fury, ann Marie Hill.

809
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:21,800
Speaker 2: So these two us still working for the American government

810
00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:24,920
Speaker 2: off the Shield was revealed to be Nazis for like

811
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:25,960
Speaker 2: sixty years.

812
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:27,600
Speaker 1: Seems like a major failure.

813
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:31,400
Speaker 2: Seems like a failure. I'm like, bro, Saber, Sam, I

814
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:34,239
Speaker 2: felt like Nick kind of set that up with the scrolls,

815
00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 2: like it was his own thing, like he'd learn his lesson.

816
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:39,440
Speaker 2: And now I'm like, the President's in charge of this.

817
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:40,719
Speaker 2: This seems like a mistake.

818
00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:44,080
Speaker 1: Doesn't that track isn't that one of the most realistic

819
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:46,680
Speaker 1: things about about the MCU.

820
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:51,040
Speaker 4: This tracks so much because you're right, because they fell

821
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:53,440
Speaker 4: for it with Shield in the Nazis and now they

822
00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:55,839
Speaker 4: fell for it with Saber and the Scroll, so you're right.

823
00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:59,879
Speaker 4: Actually one hundred percent makes sense, great storytelling, great foreshadowing.

824
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:04,040
Speaker 1: Back in Russia, Fury is just out for a walk.

825
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:08,279
Speaker 1: Taylor's is like, you're a black guy in Moscow at night.

826
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:11,360
Speaker 1: Like's gonna be looking at you, noticing you, and he's like,

827
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:14,279
Speaker 1: don't worry about it, don't do it. Clearly Fury is

828
00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:16,680
Speaker 1: looking to provoke a reaction. He gets it. He's scooped

829
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:19,759
Speaker 1: up by some black ops team and he's taken to

830
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:23,799
Speaker 1: meet Sonya and m I six big Shot, who is

831
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:27,240
Speaker 1: also trying to quash the Nascent Scroll rebellion. As Sonya,

832
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:29,560
Speaker 1: of course, as we mentioned, played by Olivia Coleman, and

833
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:31,520
Speaker 1: it's like a ray of sunshine. As soon as she

834
00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 1: arrives in the show, it's like what.

835
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:40,160
Speaker 2: If Mary Poppins was a nightmarish spy master. She brings

836
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:44,600
Speaker 2: the energy wonderful that she had in Peep Show. Somehow,

837
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:47,960
Speaker 2: it's just it's so good for me. This was the

838
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:50,400
Speaker 2: moment that the show like lit. I want to see

839
00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:54,400
Speaker 2: her and Sam together are so brilliant, Like I almost

840
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:57,000
Speaker 2: want this to be a two hander that focuses on them,

841
00:45:57,040 --> 00:46:00,360
Speaker 2: and I hope we get more because it just doesn't

842
00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:03,960
Speaker 2: change the tone. The show is inherently grim and gritty.

843
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:06,040
Speaker 2: That's just where we're at, and I'm accepting it because

844
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 2: the original Secret Invasion comic was so bombastic and silly

845
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:11,360
Speaker 2: and out there, and I know that's not what we're getting.

846
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:14,799
Speaker 2: But this moment brings so much light and fun and

847
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:18,120
Speaker 2: their banter and their chemistry. I definitely felt I was like,

848
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:21,759
Speaker 2: is this gonna be that relationship that Nick has in

849
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:25,520
Speaker 2: his past, because obviously in the comics that's Valentina, you know,

850
00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:27,520
Speaker 2: and they changed that here and made her ever At

851
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 2: Cross's ex wife, So I was like, maybe these two

852
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:33,319
Speaker 2: are that weird like Spymaster Romance. I just thought they

853
00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:36,480
Speaker 2: were so good together, and she is. She's this great mix.

854
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:38,000
Speaker 1: Of like, yeah, she's fantastic.

855
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 2: Would make you a cup of tea, but it definitely

856
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:41,919
Speaker 2: has arsenic in it, but you'd still want to drink

857
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:46,920
Speaker 2: the tea. Like it's this cozy cruelty, this Mary Poppins

858
00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:49,560
Speaker 2: Hannibal Lecter. I don't know she was just I love

859
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:52,319
Speaker 2: her so much in everything, but she is so good.

860
00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:55,440
Speaker 1: This episode and potentially this series seems very influenced by

861
00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:59,480
Speaker 1: the First Mission Impossible movie. Yes, and you know, Olivia

862
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:03,600
Speaker 1: Coleman Sonya reminds me so much of Max, the kind

863
00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:05,440
Speaker 1: of like independent.

864
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:06,920
Speaker 2: Oh that's a really good call.

865
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:12,359
Speaker 1: Intelligence broker that is like constantly flirting and charming and

866
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:16,320
Speaker 1: cajoling everybody around her in this wonderful, like light touch

867
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:19,719
Speaker 1: way that kind of belies the seriousness of what she's doing.

868
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:22,560
Speaker 1: And that's kind of Olivia Coleman move here, and it's

869
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:23,560
Speaker 1: wonderful man.

870
00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:27,240
Speaker 2: First Mission Impossible movie, What a movie. Brian de Palmer

871
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 2: loved that movie.

872
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:31,080
Speaker 1: Wonderful movie. And a lot of the kind of looks

873
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:35,399
Speaker 1: and paranoia engines that are used here. The way Nick

874
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:39,240
Speaker 1: notices people staring at him on the street, a romantic

875
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:42,799
Speaker 1: couple m you know, the woman they're kissing, but then

876
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:44,799
Speaker 1: the woman like looks at him out of the corner

877
00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:47,640
Speaker 1: of her eye, and it just all of these moves

878
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:50,399
Speaker 1: are straight out of Mission Impossible one.

879
00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:54,120
Speaker 2: That's such a brilliant call as well, because what does

880
00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:56,359
Speaker 2: Mission Impossible have that's such a key part of that

881
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:58,640
Speaker 2: first film, and then takes on that technology. Is that

882
00:47:58,719 --> 00:48:01,560
Speaker 2: technology where you can wear a ma that changes your face.

883
00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:05,040
Speaker 3: The mask the masks, maybe right, and that is essentially scrolls,

884
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:07,759
Speaker 3: because the scrolls can change whoever they are, and that

885
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:10,720
Speaker 3: is more what we're seeing here is the Scrolls almost

886
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:14,880
Speaker 3: using it as like a mister Smith esque matrix technology,

887
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:16,480
Speaker 3: where it doesn't work that way.

888
00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:18,959
Speaker 2: They still have to kidnap the humans. But yeah, they're

889
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:22,759
Speaker 2: not necessarily instilled in that deep cover way that we

890
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:25,400
Speaker 2: expected them to be from the comics. This seems a

891
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:28,960
Speaker 2: little bit more like a newer invention, a newer idea

892
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:31,800
Speaker 2: that they're doing. And it is kind of that mask,

893
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:33,640
Speaker 2: you know, it's just when you need it. But yeah,

894
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:34,360
Speaker 2: she's so good.

895
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:39,520
Speaker 1: So Nick wants to know if Sonya knows anything about

896
00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:44,280
Speaker 1: this raid in cozakh Stan in which nuclear material was stolen,

897
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:47,600
Speaker 1: and she says she doesn't know anything about it, and

898
00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:53,880
Speaker 1: she also says, very pointedly, one hinting at Nick's previous

899
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:57,560
Speaker 1: relationship with Gravic, that she thinks that Nick is in

900
00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:02,440
Speaker 1: part responsible for Gravits rise, and furthermore, she thinks that

901
00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:05,040
Speaker 1: Nick shouldn't be involved in this look at you. You're limping,

902
00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:08,200
Speaker 1: you can barely walk around. You're older, you've been in space,

903
00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:09,960
Speaker 1: you lost a step. You don't know what's going on.

904
00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:13,520
Speaker 2: Everyone's saying that to Nick in this story. He's tie it,

905
00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:15,640
Speaker 2: and that will telling him you at to tie it.

906
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:18,680
Speaker 2: You're not up to this, and they might be right.

907
00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:20,439
Speaker 2: They might be right.

908
00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:23,760
Speaker 1: Nick is like, okay, fine, well listen. If you hear anything,

909
00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:26,160
Speaker 1: let me know. I'm going for a walk again. We

910
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:30,000
Speaker 1: go to somewhere in the forest, you know, probably like

911
00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:35,240
Speaker 1: around a nuclear power plant. Just guessing, just guessing, scrolling

912
00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:38,400
Speaker 1: human form walks up to the gates. He's looking for

913
00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:41,480
Speaker 1: quote home in my own skin, which is like the

914
00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:47,120
Speaker 1: pass code, right yea passphrase for Gravis organization. And he

915
00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:51,000
Speaker 1: is met bybe Gia Taylos's daughter, who welcomes him to

916
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:55,800
Speaker 1: New Scrollos. And she's got great news for this scroll,

917
00:49:56,000 --> 00:50:00,359
Speaker 1: whose name is Beato. Everything here in New Scrollos is

918
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:04,839
Speaker 1: like one hundred percent by scrolls. Four scrolls. We got

919
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:08,959
Speaker 1: scroll produce, natural scroll, we got scroll wine, we got

920
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:10,000
Speaker 1: scroll drinks.

921
00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:12,359
Speaker 2: Here's a weird scroll fruit. Enjoy it.

922
00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:17,080
Speaker 1: All the stuff you loved as a natural born scroll

923
00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:20,440
Speaker 1: growing up. You can enjoy once again. And as you mentioned,

924
00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:22,799
Speaker 1: like look in the glove box and there's like this

925
00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:27,479
Speaker 1: big scrull like egg blands that Beto just bites into

926
00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:29,600
Speaker 1: and is obviously so delighted to be at.

927
00:50:29,719 --> 00:50:33,120
Speaker 2: It's like Neon blue. It looks terrible, but he loves it.

928
00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:35,880
Speaker 1: He loves it. We learned that there's about five hundred

929
00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:38,640
Speaker 1: scrolls living here right now, and it certainly looks very

930
00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:41,000
Speaker 1: populated than they look to be of all ages, their

931
00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:46,319
Speaker 1: adults kids. Geo then recruits Beido basically to work as

932
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:48,400
Speaker 1: an agent for Gravic to work in the field. A

933
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:52,360
Speaker 1: warrior they call them, and warriors. The thing with warriors

934
00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:54,440
Speaker 1: is they have to stay in human forms so that

935
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:59,799
Speaker 1: they can more effectively pass as human and we learned

936
00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:03,040
Speaker 1: that they call these human formed shells, and the shells

937
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:08,120
Speaker 1: required by horrifically kidnapping people. The scroll then gets the

938
00:51:08,239 --> 00:51:12,319
Speaker 1: physical attributes and then immediately transforms. The memories of the

939
00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:16,040
Speaker 1: person are then extracted using some kind of skull technology

940
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:18,080
Speaker 1: and implanted in the scroll so they know all the

941
00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:20,880
Speaker 1: things that the person knows, and then the person is

942
00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:26,640
Speaker 1: kept in this kind of horrific stasis prison where we

943
00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:30,320
Speaker 1: would imagine that Everett Ross is somewhere in this prison.

944
00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:34,920
Speaker 2: Yes, more than likely. And it's a very interesting an

945
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:38,000
Speaker 2: hilarious reveal because it's like, oh, they stay in human form.

946
00:51:38,120 --> 00:51:41,440
Speaker 2: It's including Amelia Clarke. Of course she does. That's Emilia Clark.

947
00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:43,279
Speaker 2: You want how to be in her for you want

948
00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:44,279
Speaker 2: how to look like that.

949
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:46,200
Speaker 1: We paid a lot of money for Amelia Clark.

950
00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:48,320
Speaker 2: But yeah, this is very interesting. We meet some other scrolls.

951
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:51,720
Speaker 2: If you are a fan of the Secret Invasion comic books,

952
00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:54,919
Speaker 2: you may have been like, oh, Pagan, that's a big deal.

953
00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:58,239
Speaker 2: That's like the biggest you know, character that we've met

954
00:51:58,280 --> 00:52:00,600
Speaker 2: so far from the comics and the comics. He's Queen

955
00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:06,040
Speaker 2: Varanke's lover and also most famously, he was Elektra for

956
00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:09,160
Speaker 2: a very long time in the Marvel universe, a very

957
00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:10,000
Speaker 2: fucking long time.

958
00:52:10,120 --> 00:52:16,279
Speaker 1: Have very long time since maybe nineteen eighty two, eighty three.

959
00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:19,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, like I'm saying, look in my brain, my brain's

960
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:22,880
Speaker 2: immediately like, whoa Pagan. He replaced the Elektra and he

961
00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:26,439
Speaker 2: was ultimately killed by Echo Myolopez. So you know, maybe

962
00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:28,239
Speaker 2: he's gonna become Electra and then he's gonna be in

963
00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:30,640
Speaker 2: the Dead Devil Show. And then you know, Myelopas is

964
00:52:30,640 --> 00:52:32,840
Speaker 2: gonna kill him. That is what my theory brain says.

965
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:34,640
Speaker 2: I'm just gonna tell you that's not gonna happen. That

966
00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:36,920
Speaker 2: is not a we were right. Yeah, this is pagan,

967
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:39,360
Speaker 2: you know. I think he's played by Killian Scott. I

968
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:41,760
Speaker 2: think he's gonna be a more grounded kind of Henchy

969
00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:44,719
Speaker 2: For Gravic, we've had no inklings of Varanki yet, but

970
00:52:44,719 --> 00:52:46,200
Speaker 2: it will be interesting to see where it goes. And

971
00:52:46,239 --> 00:52:48,240
Speaker 2: it's fun to see them do that thing they've started

972
00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:50,279
Speaker 2: to do in the MCU TV more where they put

973
00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:52,120
Speaker 2: in a name there that makes you think it could

974
00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:54,760
Speaker 2: be something. But that was a fun one. So yeah, Gravic,

975
00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:55,480
Speaker 2: he's been busy.

976
00:52:55,520 --> 00:52:56,840
Speaker 1: He's been very very busy.

977
00:52:57,080 --> 00:53:00,560
Speaker 2: This is a very big setup he has going, and

978
00:53:00,560 --> 00:53:02,560
Speaker 2: they're not treating humans particularly well.

979
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:05,120
Speaker 1: No, it's very very scary. Back at the safe house,

980
00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:08,840
Speaker 1: Taylor's Hill and Fury watch a video feed from a

981
00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:13,920
Speaker 1: bug that Fury very smartly planted in Sonya's office, and

982
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:19,440
Speaker 1: they watch her just ripping an underling two absolute fucking

983
00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:23,359
Speaker 1: shreds for not being up to snuff on various things

984
00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:27,319
Speaker 1: that she's asking for. And through this proloined conversation, they

985
00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:30,480
Speaker 1: learn that there is this chech and rebel named Vasilli,

986
00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:35,080
Speaker 1: who Sonya thinks is probably the best bet for the

987
00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:40,440
Speaker 1: person the Scrolls are using to acquire the bombs, the

988
00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:42,920
Speaker 1: bomb material, and to assemble the bombs that they want

989
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:45,359
Speaker 1: to use in their mission. So Fury is like, great,

990
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:48,200
Speaker 1: we have a target. Let's go after Verssilli. Fury wants

991
00:53:48,239 --> 00:53:53,560
Speaker 1: to find Gravic before Sonya's people do, and he thinks

992
00:53:53,680 --> 00:53:56,600
Speaker 1: is very important. He stresses as Taylos because listen, here's

993
00:53:56,680 --> 00:54:01,399
Speaker 1: the difference between me and Sonya. I love cooperating. One

994
00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:04,520
Speaker 1: of the cool things about the Tailos Fury relationship is

995
00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:06,840
Speaker 1: you can really tell that they are close.

996
00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:09,360
Speaker 2: It feels like they've been friends for that years.

997
00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:13,920
Speaker 1: It does there's a real, like deep emotional bond.

998
00:54:14,239 --> 00:54:15,759
Speaker 2: Mendelssohn and Jackson sell it.

999
00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:19,640
Speaker 1: They sell it really well. But Sonya, on the other hand,

1000
00:54:20,120 --> 00:54:22,759
Speaker 1: she just has no personal connections with scrolls and she

1001
00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:27,720
Speaker 1: would personally like to see all scrolls off of Earth gone.

1002
00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:32,400
Speaker 1: And you get the inkling that she's not really that

1003
00:54:32,560 --> 00:54:35,719
Speaker 1: picky about how we do it, like she just wants

1004
00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:40,320
Speaker 1: them gone. So it's very important that they find Gravic.

1005
00:54:40,600 --> 00:54:44,560
Speaker 1: Nick stresses, because we're gonna want to smooth things over

1006
00:54:44,760 --> 00:54:47,880
Speaker 1: with the scrolls that we can bring back onto our side.

1007
00:54:48,200 --> 00:54:52,560
Speaker 1: So news that Fury is on Earth reaches Gravic. Gravic

1008
00:54:52,640 --> 00:54:56,080
Speaker 1: is semi concerned. Gia is then sent to make the

1009
00:54:56,120 --> 00:54:59,000
Speaker 1: deal with Vassili for the bomb. She finds Vassili at

1010
00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:01,319
Speaker 1: his art studio. The deal walks away. At the bomb,

1011
00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:04,640
Speaker 1: Fury and Taylos are just a few minutes late. They

1012
00:55:04,680 --> 00:55:07,800
Speaker 1: do a bad cop bad cop in which Nick Fury

1013
00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:12,360
Speaker 1: threatens to like shoot all of Vasily's belongings, and Taylo's

1014
00:55:12,440 --> 00:55:14,400
Speaker 1: just decides, well, I'm going to kick the shit out

1015
00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:21,160
Speaker 1: of you. But fucking surprise, Vasily is a scroll also, uh,

1016
00:55:21,160 --> 00:55:24,480
Speaker 1: And they really have it out, with Taylo's telling Nick

1017
00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:26,480
Speaker 1: you can't get involved, don't get involved. Let me deal

1018
00:55:26,520 --> 00:55:26,799
Speaker 1: with this.

1019
00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:28,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, just let me deal with it.

1020
00:55:28,560 --> 00:55:31,200
Speaker 1: Let me do it. But then Taylos is kind of

1021
00:55:31,200 --> 00:55:33,800
Speaker 1: getting his ass kicked, and so Nick has to shoot

1022
00:55:33,920 --> 00:55:36,920
Speaker 1: the scroll that was pretending to be Vassilly and Taylo's

1023
00:55:37,560 --> 00:55:41,000
Speaker 1: who's clearly dealing with a lot of complex emotions about

1024
00:55:41,719 --> 00:55:46,160
Speaker 1: betraying his people and collaborating with humans and the fact

1025
00:55:46,160 --> 00:55:48,480
Speaker 1: that his family's been torn apart by this, his wife's

1026
00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:52,200
Speaker 1: been murdered, and now here he is fighting a scroll

1027
00:55:52,640 --> 00:55:56,160
Speaker 1: who maybe he was saying, don't get involved so that

1028
00:55:56,239 --> 00:55:58,279
Speaker 1: he could take the scroll in alive, and now the

1029
00:55:58,280 --> 00:56:00,479
Speaker 1: scroll has been murdered by a human while he was there.

1030
00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:04,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, it feels definitely to me like they're setting up

1031
00:56:04,239 --> 00:56:08,720
Speaker 2: a potential conflict or split here with the loyalty between

1032
00:56:09,200 --> 00:56:14,080
Speaker 2: Telos and the feelings he has towards Nick, but also

1033
00:56:14,239 --> 00:56:17,359
Speaker 2: his relationship with his daughter and that moment where he's

1034
00:56:17,440 --> 00:56:21,000
Speaker 2: devastated that Nick Fury shot this scroll and killed him.

1035
00:56:21,200 --> 00:56:23,799
Speaker 2: That feels like it could be a crack that may

1036
00:56:24,080 --> 00:56:26,960
Speaker 2: turn into a chasm. Obviously, what Graphic is doing is

1037
00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:31,239
Speaker 2: horrific and needs to be stopped, but you would imagine

1038
00:56:31,360 --> 00:56:35,279
Speaker 2: that there's no way it feels good for Tailos to

1039
00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:39,160
Speaker 2: have his native people tell him that he has sold

1040
00:56:39,160 --> 00:56:42,160
Speaker 2: them out. Yeah, and also as well, I think this

1041
00:56:42,320 --> 00:56:45,319
Speaker 2: was always going to be a problem that came with

1042
00:56:45,520 --> 00:56:48,360
Speaker 2: the representation that they chose to do of the scrolls,

1043
00:56:48,360 --> 00:56:50,600
Speaker 2: which in Captain Marvel was this idea that they were

1044
00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:53,720
Speaker 2: these kind of like peaceful refugees. In the Marvel comics,

1045
00:56:53,719 --> 00:56:57,000
Speaker 2: they are generally like your go to bad villains, who

1046
00:56:57,040 --> 00:56:58,520
Speaker 2: aren't you know, human.

1047
00:56:58,320 --> 00:57:01,120
Speaker 1: Nazis an empire. Yeah, they're an empire.

1048
00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:03,239
Speaker 2: And there are obviously people within the Scroll Empire who

1049
00:57:03,280 --> 00:57:06,160
Speaker 2: are good people. It's a complex, nuanced thing. But to

1050
00:57:06,280 --> 00:57:10,880
Speaker 2: introduce them as essentially refugees of a war and then

1051
00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:13,520
Speaker 2: in now have to establish the idea that some of

1052
00:57:13,520 --> 00:57:16,560
Speaker 2: those refugees are terrorists. This was always going to be

1053
00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:20,320
Speaker 2: a hard play, I think, and it's going to be

1054
00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:23,320
Speaker 2: interesting to see how they build it out. Obviously they're

1055
00:57:23,360 --> 00:57:26,320
Speaker 2: lucky because Kingsley Benneddet is like an incredibly talented actor,

1056
00:57:26,400 --> 00:57:28,520
Speaker 2: so I'm sure Gravic is going to bring a lot

1057
00:57:28,520 --> 00:57:31,960
Speaker 2: of gravitass to this role. But yeah, I always think

1058
00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:35,160
Speaker 2: that was going to be a hard thing to sell,

1059
00:57:35,240 --> 00:57:37,640
Speaker 2: and the route that they're going is definitely the more

1060
00:57:37,800 --> 00:57:40,520
Speaker 2: serious and complex take on.

1061
00:57:40,480 --> 00:57:43,480
Speaker 1: It, which I like. So I should mention that while

1062
00:57:44,280 --> 00:57:47,920
Speaker 1: Nick and Tailos were going to see Vasilly Hill was

1063
00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:50,080
Speaker 1: out in the car and she happens to see Geo

1064
00:57:50,160 --> 00:57:52,840
Speaker 1: walking past, so she follows down to a tunnel and

1065
00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:55,520
Speaker 1: the two fight, but Scrolls are way stronger than humans,

1066
00:57:55,520 --> 00:58:00,440
Speaker 1: so he'll kind of get her clock cleaned and goes

1067
00:58:00,440 --> 00:58:03,919
Speaker 1: on the run, with Taylos following right behind. The father

1068
00:58:03,960 --> 00:58:07,480
Speaker 1: and daughter confront each other. Gia doesn't want to hand

1069
00:58:07,480 --> 00:58:10,600
Speaker 1: over the bomb. Taylos is like, well, this is a

1070
00:58:10,640 --> 00:58:12,520
Speaker 1: really weird way to tell you this, but I have

1071
00:58:12,560 --> 00:58:16,760
Speaker 1: some news. Your mother is dead. Her last words were fine, Gia,

1072
00:58:17,160 --> 00:58:19,520
Speaker 1: which is again a crazy way to learn that your

1073
00:58:19,560 --> 00:58:21,960
Speaker 1: mom died. And then Taylos is like, can we just

1074
00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:24,720
Speaker 1: like talk and Gia rebuffs him and she goes on

1075
00:58:24,720 --> 00:58:28,200
Speaker 1: the run. Fury goes to a bar where he meets

1076
00:58:28,240 --> 00:58:31,320
Speaker 1: Hill and they finally have a talk that they should

1077
00:58:31,320 --> 00:58:35,960
Speaker 1: have had probably two days prior, where she gets to

1078
00:58:36,000 --> 00:58:37,840
Speaker 1: ask him, you know, why did you leave Saber and

1079
00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:41,320
Speaker 1: he's like, well, one, you called me, and two because

1080
00:58:41,360 --> 00:58:43,840
Speaker 1: I was having a crisis of faith and that crisis

1081
00:58:43,840 --> 00:58:45,880
Speaker 1: of faith carried over to my work at Saber. And

1082
00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:50,520
Speaker 1: then he clearly feels a responsibility to the Scrolls and

1083
00:58:50,560 --> 00:58:53,520
Speaker 1: to Taylos, and his inability to follow through in a

1084
00:58:53,560 --> 00:58:58,120
Speaker 1: homeland for them is kind of a major factor in

1085
00:58:58,360 --> 00:59:02,360
Speaker 1: what's going on right now in a really significant way.

1086
00:59:03,560 --> 00:59:05,880
Speaker 1: And he'll says, well, listen, I only called you because

1087
00:59:05,960 --> 00:59:06,960
Speaker 1: Taylos wanted Jesus.

1088
00:59:07,000 --> 00:59:07,880
Speaker 2: I didn't want you here.

1089
00:59:08,480 --> 00:59:10,720
Speaker 1: I didn't want you here because guess what, you're not

1090
00:59:10,800 --> 00:59:12,840
Speaker 1: ready for this, Fury, you were never the same after

1091
00:59:12,880 --> 00:59:17,040
Speaker 1: the blip, she says, agreeing though she doesn't know it

1092
00:59:17,040 --> 00:59:21,240
Speaker 1: with Sonya, and again you have to wonder if she's right.

1093
00:59:21,400 --> 00:59:25,200
Speaker 1: We then see Fury late at night, like reliving the

1094
00:59:25,280 --> 00:59:28,760
Speaker 1: moment of the blip, his hand turning to ash, eventually

1095
00:59:28,800 --> 00:59:31,000
Speaker 1: his whole body turning to ash as he drifts away.

1096
00:59:31,200 --> 00:59:34,000
Speaker 2: I'm very interested in this, actually, Taylos. You know he

1097
00:59:34,120 --> 00:59:37,440
Speaker 2: keeps telling Fury, you disappeared, You disappeared. You know you

1098
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:43,160
Speaker 2: would never say so does Maria Hill. She knows he

1099
00:59:43,240 --> 00:59:45,880
Speaker 2: got blipped, right, so he was gone for five years

1100
00:59:46,000 --> 00:59:47,960
Speaker 2: then and then he went up to say, but I

1101
00:59:48,000 --> 00:59:51,320
Speaker 2: feel like people are not really like giving Nick Altt

1102
00:59:51,520 --> 00:59:53,760
Speaker 2: like enough credit for the fact, you know, he was blipped,

1103
00:59:53,760 --> 00:59:56,480
Speaker 2: and then like you know, the wild was saved and

1104
00:59:56,560 --> 00:59:59,520
Speaker 2: everyone got unblipped, and then he's up in space trying

1105
00:59:59,520 --> 01:00:01,960
Speaker 2: to protect everyone's like, where have you been? Is that?

1106
01:00:02,000 --> 01:00:04,840
Speaker 2: Where was half the world? They got blipped? And now

1107
01:00:04,880 --> 01:00:05,840
Speaker 2: he's up in space.

1108
01:00:06,240 --> 01:00:08,880
Speaker 1: I kind of perceived this as, yes, of course Nick

1109
01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:10,840
Speaker 1: got blipped, but the fact that as soon as you

1110
01:00:10,880 --> 01:00:15,600
Speaker 1: got snapped, you then left Earth to go to space.

1111
01:00:15,840 --> 01:00:19,520
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, like we needed you here when yeah.

1112
01:00:19,200 --> 01:00:24,000
Speaker 1: We needed you. And clearly the suggestion is what Hill

1113
01:00:24,080 --> 01:00:25,800
Speaker 1: is kind of like and what Sonya is kind of

1114
01:00:25,800 --> 01:00:29,480
Speaker 1: beating on the bush with is you were heavily traumatized

1115
01:00:29,480 --> 01:00:32,240
Speaker 1: by the blip. Obviously you didn't know anything when you

1116
01:00:32,280 --> 01:00:35,400
Speaker 1: were blipped, but when you came back and the gravity

1117
01:00:35,440 --> 01:00:40,040
Speaker 1: of what had occurred hit you. It's probably still hitting you.

1118
01:00:40,040 --> 01:00:42,160
Speaker 1: You're probably still processing it, and you need to deal

1119
01:00:42,160 --> 01:00:44,600
Speaker 1: with it because it's heavily affecting your ability to do

1120
01:00:44,720 --> 01:00:46,680
Speaker 1: the job that you're trying to do. Yeah, And I

1121
01:00:46,680 --> 01:00:49,240
Speaker 1: think that's what everybody's basically saying to him, is like,

1122
01:00:49,560 --> 01:00:52,160
Speaker 1: we want to help you, we're your friends. You went

1123
01:00:52,200 --> 01:00:54,680
Speaker 1: to fucking space. How are we supposed to help you?

1124
01:00:55,120 --> 01:00:57,880
Speaker 2: Yeah? Like where were you? Yeah? No, that's a good

1125
01:00:57,920 --> 01:01:01,280
Speaker 2: cal I also won I feel like this there's a

1126
01:01:01,320 --> 01:01:03,560
Speaker 2: lot of weight being put on this idea that he's

1127
01:01:03,720 --> 01:01:07,560
Speaker 2: not the same he's not got the same strength. I

1128
01:01:07,600 --> 01:01:09,680
Speaker 2: wonder how much of that is going to play into

1129
01:01:10,480 --> 01:01:14,400
Speaker 2: a change that is more significant. I don't think that

1130
01:01:14,680 --> 01:01:16,640
Speaker 2: he is a scroll. I don't think he's one of

1131
01:01:16,680 --> 01:01:19,040
Speaker 2: those cases. I don't think it's anything like that. But

1132
01:01:19,120 --> 01:01:22,320
Speaker 2: you know, Nick Fury's very old in the comics, he's

1133
01:01:22,400 --> 01:01:25,720
Speaker 2: essentially immortal. Here he looks much older. I wonder if

1134
01:01:25,760 --> 01:01:28,600
Speaker 2: there is some kind of connection here to him aging faster,

1135
01:01:28,760 --> 01:01:31,600
Speaker 2: or being ill, or actually, you know, the blip affecting

1136
01:01:31,680 --> 01:01:34,640
Speaker 2: him in a more permanent way than it did other people.

1137
01:01:34,880 --> 01:01:37,720
Speaker 2: I'll be very interested to see. Obviously, the biggest impact

1138
01:01:37,760 --> 01:01:39,920
Speaker 2: this is going to have as this series goes on

1139
01:01:40,200 --> 01:01:42,480
Speaker 2: is going to be Nick Fury showing everyone that he

1140
01:01:42,640 --> 01:01:45,720
Speaker 2: is in fact back ye like John Wick and they're

1141
01:01:45,760 --> 01:01:48,080
Speaker 2: all wrong. That's clearly the route they're going. But yeah,

1142
01:01:48,080 --> 01:01:49,760
Speaker 2: I found that. I was like, please give this man

1143
01:01:49,800 --> 01:01:51,560
Speaker 2: a break. I was like, do you know how hard

1144
01:01:51,560 --> 01:01:52,960
Speaker 2: the blip was? Pretty hardcore man.

1145
01:01:53,960 --> 01:01:56,880
Speaker 1: I will say that I find myself with regards to

1146
01:01:56,880 --> 01:02:00,360
Speaker 1: the way this episode ends. Yes on rewatch like looking

1147
01:02:00,400 --> 01:02:03,640
Speaker 1: for clues that Nick's playing possum. They're doing a really

1148
01:02:03,640 --> 01:02:08,600
Speaker 1: good job of selling Nick being older, potentially over the hill,

1149
01:02:09,080 --> 01:02:11,720
Speaker 1: traumatized by the events of the blip, not on his

1150
01:02:11,800 --> 01:02:14,640
Speaker 1: a game. But it's hard to escape because this is

1151
01:02:14,720 --> 01:02:17,640
Speaker 1: Nick Fury. It is hard to escape the idea that,

1152
01:02:17,880 --> 01:02:21,000
Speaker 1: of course Nick wants his enemies, thinking that he doesn't have.

1153
01:02:20,960 --> 01:02:23,920
Speaker 2: It to think that, right, and he's just come back

1154
01:02:23,920 --> 01:02:26,160
Speaker 2: from space. Suddenly he's got a limp. He's looking a

1155
01:02:26,200 --> 01:02:27,560
Speaker 2: little bit rough and tumble.

1156
01:02:28,000 --> 01:02:29,280
Speaker 1: He really played up the limbs.

1157
01:02:29,440 --> 01:02:34,360
Speaker 2: Oh oh my knee. Yeah he's playing it. Yeah, oh

1158
01:02:35,360 --> 01:02:38,760
Speaker 2: exactly like. I think you're right. I think it's at

1159
01:02:38,840 --> 01:02:42,320
Speaker 2: least partially a play, especially because he doesn't really fight

1160
01:02:42,400 --> 01:02:44,640
Speaker 2: back when these women in his life are saying that

1161
01:02:44,680 --> 01:02:44,920
Speaker 2: to him.

1162
01:02:45,160 --> 01:02:48,840
Speaker 1: Gia brings the bomb to Gravic's people and they're like,

1163
01:02:49,040 --> 01:02:52,880
Speaker 1: great job. She tells them that hey, just so you know,

1164
01:02:53,640 --> 01:02:57,960
Speaker 1: human security forces know about us because someone tried to

1165
01:02:58,000 --> 01:03:01,920
Speaker 1: intercept me. But then, very interestingly, she lies and says,

1166
01:03:02,040 --> 01:03:03,920
Speaker 1: I don't know who it was. I didn't recognize the person,

1167
01:03:03,960 --> 01:03:07,840
Speaker 1: but of course it was Maria Hill and her dad. Later,

1168
01:03:08,360 --> 01:03:11,200
Speaker 1: Gia secretly meets with her dad. He finally tells her,

1169
01:03:11,600 --> 01:03:14,400
Speaker 1: shock of shocks, that it was Gravic who killed her

1170
01:03:14,440 --> 01:03:18,120
Speaker 1: mom off screen, and she tells him in return that

1171
01:03:18,280 --> 01:03:22,800
Speaker 1: guess what that big bombing is happening tomorrow. There's three

1172
01:03:22,840 --> 01:03:27,600
Speaker 1: devices and Gravic knows you're onto him. There'll be like

1173
01:03:27,640 --> 01:03:30,560
Speaker 1: one hundred scrull agents around. It's gonna happen in a park,

1174
01:03:31,280 --> 01:03:35,320
Speaker 1: and I'll mark the bombs with this infrared spray so

1175
01:03:35,360 --> 01:03:38,040
Speaker 1: you can see it. They set up the sting operation

1176
01:03:38,160 --> 01:03:40,640
Speaker 1: in the park with Hill, Fury and Taylors watching Gia.

1177
01:03:40,720 --> 01:03:43,360
Speaker 1: Who knows how many Scrull agents are all around. Immediately

1178
01:03:43,400 --> 01:03:45,360
Speaker 1: things get mixed up and the bombs are now heading

1179
01:03:45,400 --> 01:03:49,440
Speaker 1: in various directions, carried by various people. Everybody splits up Fury.

1180
01:03:49,880 --> 01:03:51,960
Speaker 1: We mentioned how when Fury was on his walk right

1181
01:03:52,040 --> 01:03:54,560
Speaker 1: he ran into like all these different people who were

1182
01:03:54,840 --> 01:03:58,560
Speaker 1: different levels of suspicious, and one of them was this girl,

1183
01:04:00,040 --> 01:04:03,840
Speaker 1: this very colorful outfit with this beautiful rainbow colored ball

1184
01:04:03,920 --> 01:04:06,160
Speaker 1: that kind of like stumbled into his path and then

1185
01:04:06,280 --> 01:04:10,680
Speaker 1: moves away. He sees that girl again and he knows scroll.

1186
01:04:11,200 --> 01:04:13,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it seems like the implication here, which would

1187
01:04:13,840 --> 01:04:16,120
Speaker 2: be a big change, but I think is something we'd

1188
01:04:16,120 --> 01:04:18,960
Speaker 2: guessed before. It kind of seems like the implication is

1189
01:04:19,040 --> 01:04:23,400
Speaker 2: she is gravit, and gravit can maybe change between bodies. Yeah,

1190
01:04:23,480 --> 01:04:26,280
Speaker 2: Because it kind of seems like Nick is following one

1191
01:04:26,360 --> 01:04:29,920
Speaker 2: person and as he follows them, the girl disappears and

1192
01:04:29,960 --> 01:04:32,160
Speaker 2: then it's a man, and then the next person is

1193
01:04:32,160 --> 01:04:35,600
Speaker 2: a woman. Now he is always someone else walks in front,

1194
01:04:35,680 --> 01:04:37,280
Speaker 2: so there's a chance it could be a trick of

1195
01:04:37,920 --> 01:04:40,240
Speaker 2: kind of the light or like a trick of perception.

1196
01:04:40,600 --> 01:04:43,160
Speaker 2: But my read here was like, this is the same girl.

1197
01:04:44,040 --> 01:04:47,320
Speaker 2: The scrolls are on t him, and potentially that could

1198
01:04:47,400 --> 01:04:49,680
Speaker 2: be Gravic, who has this kind of ability we haven't

1199
01:04:49,680 --> 01:04:50,960
Speaker 2: seen before with scrolls.

1200
01:04:51,160 --> 01:04:53,400
Speaker 1: I thought that as well. And you know, as we've

1201
01:04:53,400 --> 01:04:56,920
Speaker 1: talked about in previous episodes, I think the super scrolls

1202
01:04:56,960 --> 01:04:58,960
Speaker 1: are gonna be introduced here. I think we're gonna.

1203
01:04:58,720 --> 01:05:00,880
Speaker 2: Get I do. They'll just do a different way.

1204
01:05:01,080 --> 01:05:02,640
Speaker 1: They'll do it a different way. I think we'll get

1205
01:05:02,640 --> 01:05:06,520
Speaker 1: scrolls that can be multiple forms of things at once.

1206
01:05:06,680 --> 01:05:07,080
Speaker 2: Mm hmm.

1207
01:05:07,280 --> 01:05:12,680
Speaker 1: Okay, So the scrolls are clearly onto this counterintelligence sting.

1208
01:05:13,560 --> 01:05:16,560
Speaker 1: Hill discovers the backpack she was following was empty, and

1209
01:05:16,600 --> 01:05:20,160
Speaker 1: things just happened really quickly. After that, Fury sees Gravic

1210
01:05:20,200 --> 01:05:24,600
Speaker 1: trigger the bombs. They go off. There's huge chaos in

1211
01:05:24,600 --> 01:05:28,560
Speaker 1: this park. A scroll disguised as Nick Fury shoots Hill

1212
01:05:29,320 --> 01:05:34,800
Speaker 1: and she very potentially dies in his arms, and the

1213
01:05:34,800 --> 01:05:39,160
Speaker 1: real Nick Fury, having no other option, flees, and that

1214
01:05:39,280 --> 01:05:43,680
Speaker 1: is how the episode ends. Is Hill dead. She's done

1215
01:05:43,720 --> 01:05:46,080
Speaker 1: this before, by the way, playing dead.

1216
01:05:46,360 --> 01:05:49,600
Speaker 2: I think if she is dead, it's a big mistake

1217
01:05:49,800 --> 01:05:51,800
Speaker 2: on the MCU's pot. I don't think it will land

1218
01:05:51,920 --> 01:05:54,720
Speaker 2: very well. I would say it also would It makes

1219
01:05:54,760 --> 01:05:57,400
Speaker 2: sense she's quite a major player in different ways in

1220
01:05:57,480 --> 01:06:00,840
Speaker 2: the twenty twenty two Secret Invasion and the original Secret Invasion.

1221
01:06:01,280 --> 01:06:04,320
Speaker 2: But knowing the MCU, I think back to the treatment

1222
01:06:04,400 --> 01:06:07,160
Speaker 2: of Black Widow, a character I wasn't even particularly that

1223
01:06:07,280 --> 01:06:12,640
Speaker 2: fond of in the famous Marvel event movie Avengers Endgame.

1224
01:06:13,120 --> 01:06:15,280
Speaker 2: I think she's probably dead. I think this is a

1225
01:06:15,320 --> 01:06:16,800
Speaker 2: classic case of fridging.

1226
01:06:17,200 --> 01:06:17,960
Speaker 1: You think she's dead.

1227
01:06:18,040 --> 01:06:21,560
Speaker 2: That's my feeling. You give Nick a very important reason

1228
01:06:21,880 --> 01:06:25,840
Speaker 2: to keep fighting. And also, if I'm not mistaken, I

1229
01:06:25,960 --> 01:06:28,880
Speaker 2: believe that the scroll kind of proving our point here,

1230
01:06:28,920 --> 01:06:31,040
Speaker 2: or at least introducing a new path. I believe it's

1231
01:06:31,120 --> 01:06:35,320
Speaker 2: Gravic who is disguised as Nick Fury and shoots Maria,

1232
01:06:35,360 --> 01:06:38,960
Speaker 2: which again adds another reason for Nick Fury to have

1233
01:06:39,160 --> 01:06:42,240
Speaker 2: conflict with Gravic. Plus, that is a scroll power that

1234
01:06:42,280 --> 01:06:45,680
Speaker 2: we have yet to understand, because Nick Fury has not

1235
01:06:45,760 --> 01:06:49,720
Speaker 2: been taken and hidden in their little magic pods. So

1236
01:06:50,360 --> 01:06:51,760
Speaker 2: that's a powerful.

1237
01:06:51,600 --> 01:06:54,280
Speaker 1: Choice, right. I think she's alive. I think this is

1238
01:06:54,320 --> 01:06:58,160
Speaker 1: a classic reverse Winter Soldier Nick Fury move.

1239
01:06:58,240 --> 01:07:01,200
Speaker 2: Ooh, like an LMDC situation.

1240
01:07:01,600 --> 01:07:05,280
Speaker 1: You know, when he's like in Steve's apartment and gets

1241
01:07:05,320 --> 01:07:09,360
Speaker 1: shot and then dies in air quotes. I think we're

1242
01:07:09,440 --> 01:07:12,720
Speaker 1: just I think it's just another one of these where

1243
01:07:13,120 --> 01:07:16,720
Speaker 1: Hill is now the one pretending to be dead, so

1244
01:07:16,760 --> 01:07:19,080
Speaker 1: that the scrolls can think that they are on the

1245
01:07:19,120 --> 01:07:20,080
Speaker 1: front foot.

1246
01:07:20,560 --> 01:07:24,040
Speaker 2: And then they think Nick is alone. Oh that's pretty good.

1247
01:07:24,360 --> 01:07:25,960
Speaker 2: That's a long game plan. I like it.

1248
01:07:26,240 --> 01:07:29,560
Speaker 1: This is just looking at Nick Fury's history. It would

1249
01:07:29,560 --> 01:07:30,640
Speaker 1: not surprise me at all that.

1250
01:07:30,600 --> 01:07:32,280
Speaker 2: Would be from the Nick Fury playbook.

1251
01:07:32,720 --> 01:07:36,920
Speaker 1: Any other scroll predictions. Now that we've seen again, I

1252
01:07:36,960 --> 01:07:39,760
Speaker 1: will go on record as saying I think everybody based

1253
01:07:39,800 --> 01:07:43,840
Speaker 1: in Russia for any period of time needs to be

1254
01:07:44,040 --> 01:07:47,560
Speaker 1: looked at as a potential scroll. Yolena, I'm looking at you.

1255
01:07:47,680 --> 01:07:51,800
Speaker 2: Okay. In that case, let's talk about the one that

1256
01:07:51,880 --> 01:07:54,960
Speaker 2: could be their big reveal. Bucky always a scroll.

1257
01:07:55,120 --> 01:07:56,080
Speaker 1: I would love it.

1258
01:07:56,160 --> 01:07:57,600
Speaker 2: Well, you know what else as well? So that one

1259
01:07:57,600 --> 01:07:59,640
Speaker 2: of my favorite things about Sucre invasion. There are some

1260
01:07:59,680 --> 01:08:02,520
Speaker 2: scroll who are scrolls for so long they forgot that

1261
01:08:02,560 --> 01:08:05,120
Speaker 2: they actually start to believe that they are that person.

1262
01:08:05,360 --> 01:08:07,800
Speaker 2: That could play into the relationship he had with Steve,

1263
01:08:07,880 --> 01:08:09,880
Speaker 2: that could all be real. That would be very cool,

1264
01:08:09,880 --> 01:08:12,400
Speaker 2: that play into your Russia theory. I think this is

1265
01:08:12,400 --> 01:08:15,240
Speaker 2: gonna play more heavily into that twenty twenty two Secret

1266
01:08:15,240 --> 01:08:17,040
Speaker 2: Invasion mini series you were talking about.

1267
01:08:17,400 --> 01:08:19,519
Speaker 1: I think the President is surely a scroll.

1268
01:08:21,479 --> 01:08:26,520
Speaker 2: I think this is gonna be people in high placements.

1269
01:08:26,880 --> 01:08:29,639
Speaker 2: I think, you know, maybe maybe Rody I guess because

1270
01:08:29,680 --> 01:08:31,800
Speaker 2: he is up there as well in that space. But

1271
01:08:32,560 --> 01:08:34,160
Speaker 2: I think that it's gonna be more like that. I

1272
01:08:34,200 --> 01:08:35,920
Speaker 2: don't think we're gonna get any of those bigger reveals.

1273
01:08:35,960 --> 01:08:37,920
Speaker 2: I sadly don't think Hawkeye is a scroll, which has

1274
01:08:37,920 --> 01:08:40,960
Speaker 2: been my ten year theory that I've been arguing at

1275
01:08:41,000 --> 01:08:43,960
Speaker 2: every website I write at. But my big theory that

1276
01:08:44,000 --> 01:08:47,280
Speaker 2: I do think. So we get a really cool thing

1277
01:08:48,000 --> 01:08:52,400
Speaker 2: right this episode, which is no eyepatch for Nick Fury.

1278
01:08:52,560 --> 01:08:55,080
Speaker 2: I love it. It's great aesthetic, it's very cool, but to me,

1279
01:08:55,120 --> 01:08:59,679
Speaker 2: it feels very important. And when he puts the little

1280
01:08:59,680 --> 01:09:03,080
Speaker 2: buzz in Sonya's room, he puts it on the same eye.

1281
01:09:03,160 --> 01:09:05,240
Speaker 2: It's the left eye of the owl, the left eye

1282
01:09:05,240 --> 01:09:08,240
Speaker 2: of his eye in the comics. Sorry to everyone who

1283
01:09:08,280 --> 01:09:10,040
Speaker 2: listens to this podcast, because I always talk about him.

1284
01:09:10,080 --> 01:09:12,360
Speaker 2: Three D Man has the glasses he can see who's

1285
01:09:12,360 --> 01:09:15,200
Speaker 2: a scroll. I think the more grounded version of that

1286
01:09:15,200 --> 01:09:19,479
Speaker 2: that we're gonna get is Samuel L. Jackson's eye that was,

1287
01:09:19,560 --> 01:09:22,719
Speaker 2: you know, scratched by a flirkin. I think that's gonna

1288
01:09:22,720 --> 01:09:25,280
Speaker 2: give him the ability at some point to see scrolls

1289
01:09:25,400 --> 01:09:28,000
Speaker 2: or sense them. It's not gonna be crazy, it's not

1290
01:09:28,000 --> 01:09:30,920
Speaker 2: gonna be three D Man, but there's something about this

1291
01:09:31,080 --> 01:09:33,800
Speaker 2: left eye being able to see it. I think he

1292
01:09:33,920 --> 01:09:35,920
Speaker 2: is essentially going to take on that role as the

1293
01:09:35,960 --> 01:09:40,519
Speaker 2: person who can find a way train himself or activate

1294
01:09:40,600 --> 01:09:43,080
Speaker 2: something with him so he can sense who the scrolls are,

1295
01:09:43,120 --> 01:09:46,640
Speaker 2: and he will essentially then be that lone voice of

1296
01:09:46,720 --> 01:09:51,920
Speaker 2: reason that nobody else believes, the paranoid but right conspiracy theorist. Yeah,

1297
01:09:52,080 --> 01:09:52,800
Speaker 2: very interesting.

1298
01:09:53,240 --> 01:09:58,360
Speaker 1: Now in Captain America Winter Soldier right the end, the

1299
01:09:58,400 --> 01:10:02,519
Speaker 1: climax of that film h in part on Natasha's use

1300
01:10:02,800 --> 01:10:07,200
Speaker 1: of really really high tech like facial scrambling technology that

1301
01:10:07,280 --> 01:10:08,120
Speaker 1: allowed her to.

1302
01:10:08,280 --> 01:10:11,840
Speaker 2: Yes, see, I see it's very famous Jenny Agata face mask.

1303
01:10:12,120 --> 01:10:14,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, that allowed her to pose as a member of

1304
01:10:14,560 --> 01:10:19,120
Speaker 1: the council, So we know that humans have this similar technology. Hmmm,

1305
01:10:19,880 --> 01:10:21,839
Speaker 1: I'm gonna get crazy for one second.

1306
01:10:22,080 --> 01:10:22,800
Speaker 2: I want to hear it.

1307
01:10:23,080 --> 01:10:25,679
Speaker 1: Nick Fury no eyepatch and limping, who has a leg

1308
01:10:25,720 --> 01:10:29,719
Speaker 1: injury famously in the MCU leg braces for a period

1309
01:10:29,760 --> 01:10:35,160
Speaker 1: of time, although it didn't seem oh oh, what if

1310
01:10:35,160 --> 01:10:36,679
Speaker 1: they are flipped?

1311
01:10:37,120 --> 01:10:39,080
Speaker 2: What if roady Sam?

1312
01:10:39,960 --> 01:10:42,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, Nick is pretending to be roady and.

1313
01:10:44,880 --> 01:10:47,439
Speaker 2: I would love to see it. I love that. I

1314
01:10:47,479 --> 01:10:50,120
Speaker 2: think that could be so cool. Also, you make a

1315
01:10:50,120 --> 01:10:54,160
Speaker 2: great point. If that technology is not in this mini series,

1316
01:10:54,200 --> 01:10:57,799
Speaker 2: I will eat my hand. It's gonna be the human.

1317
01:10:58,600 --> 01:11:03,320
Speaker 2: That's the human way of mixing and messing up the

1318
01:11:03,360 --> 01:11:05,280
Speaker 2: scrolls the way that they do to us. That's such

1319
01:11:05,280 --> 01:11:07,320
Speaker 2: a great call. God, I would love that. That's my

1320
01:11:07,520 --> 01:11:09,880
Speaker 2: I'm into it now. That's that's my head canin.

1321
01:11:11,960 --> 01:11:14,320
Speaker 1: I can't wait to see what happens next. Will be

1322
01:11:14,320 --> 01:11:18,839
Speaker 1: following this series as progresses up Next nerd Out.

1323
01:11:27,080 --> 01:11:31,920
Speaker 2: Warning, The following nerd Out contains big spoilers, big, big,

1324
01:11:31,920 --> 01:11:35,839
Speaker 2: big spoilers for the season two finale of Yellow Jackets.

1325
01:11:37,160 --> 01:11:40,960
Speaker 2: Be warned in today's nerd Out, where you tell us

1326
01:11:41,000 --> 01:11:43,080
Speaker 2: what you love them. Why a theory you're excited to share,

1327
01:11:43,240 --> 01:11:46,040
Speaker 2: or a quick question that we can answer. Cody offers

1328
01:11:46,040 --> 01:11:50,519
Speaker 2: a rebuttal. I would say Cody adds support to Coach

1329
01:11:50,600 --> 01:11:53,439
Speaker 2: Ben's actions from The Yellow Jacket season two for.

1330
01:11:54,000 --> 01:11:56,080
Speaker 1: Do you want to read it? You should read it? Yeah.

1331
01:11:56,280 --> 01:11:58,600
Speaker 2: Loving all the deep dives this year, I have to

1332
01:11:58,640 --> 01:12:02,080
Speaker 2: say I think Coach Ben made the smart move burning

1333
01:12:02,120 --> 01:12:05,320
Speaker 2: down camp Yellowjacket. That is a controversial take, Cody, but

1334
01:12:05,320 --> 01:12:07,519
Speaker 2: I'm here for it. Let's listen to begin. He should

1335
01:12:07,560 --> 01:12:10,679
Speaker 2: should he have reinforced the doors better and locked them inside? Yes,

1336
01:12:11,160 --> 01:12:14,160
Speaker 2: I agree, if you're gonna do it, don't let them escape.

1337
01:12:14,439 --> 01:12:16,080
Speaker 2: But he can't just go up with a hammer and

1338
01:12:16,160 --> 01:12:18,280
Speaker 2: nail and board up the windows and doors. He's working

1339
01:12:18,320 --> 01:12:21,120
Speaker 2: with one leg and no hammer, and they'll hear him.

1340
01:12:21,400 --> 01:12:24,439
Speaker 2: The murder Cannibal Cult girls definitely have some difficulty getting

1341
01:12:24,439 --> 01:12:26,760
Speaker 2: out the cabin as it unfolds, and they are all

1342
01:12:26,760 --> 01:12:30,679
Speaker 2: asleep until Shauna wakes them up. Prompt one does Seana

1343
01:12:30,760 --> 01:12:33,439
Speaker 2: save the girls from burning up after a Hervey induced

1344
01:12:33,479 --> 01:12:36,879
Speaker 2: food coma is the fact that she is upstairs journaling

1345
01:12:36,920 --> 01:12:40,479
Speaker 2: and being perfectly petty. Are you their wilderness? It's me Seana.

1346
01:12:40,640 --> 01:12:43,040
Speaker 2: The reason the girls didn't die from smoke inhalation or

1347
01:12:43,080 --> 01:12:46,080
Speaker 2: not wake up until it was too late. Yes, I

1348
01:12:46,120 --> 01:12:48,800
Speaker 2: think I love it. I love that. If Shawna wasn't

1349
01:12:49,080 --> 01:12:52,000
Speaker 2: that's writing her ridiculous? Why wasn't it me, journal? I

1350
01:12:52,000 --> 01:12:54,120
Speaker 2: think you're right. I think they would all die. And

1351
01:12:54,200 --> 01:12:56,080
Speaker 2: I actually that was what I was gonna say. I

1352
01:12:56,120 --> 01:12:59,360
Speaker 2: do think Ben probably could have hammered and nailed and

1353
01:12:59,360 --> 01:13:03,880
Speaker 2: no one would have known except for little dear diary Shana. Yes,

1354
01:13:03,920 --> 01:13:06,840
Speaker 2: and he's gonna say. Finally, Cody says, the one other

1355
01:13:06,880 --> 01:13:09,040
Speaker 2: thing I will say in defense of Coach Ben's plan

1356
01:13:09,520 --> 01:13:11,639
Speaker 2: is that the girls could easily die of exposure without

1357
01:13:11,720 --> 01:13:14,639
Speaker 2: the cabin. One more blizzard, a few nights of exposure

1358
01:13:14,680 --> 01:13:17,639
Speaker 2: in the open air with no fireplace, donezo. It's a

1359
01:13:17,680 --> 01:13:20,799
Speaker 2: solid plan, Cody said. These girls are gonna die. Ben's

1360
01:13:20,800 --> 01:13:23,800
Speaker 2: gonna be fine. It's a solid plan in bad circumstances

1361
01:13:23,840 --> 01:13:26,720
Speaker 2: to deal with it must be said again, he is

1362
01:13:26,760 --> 01:13:30,920
Speaker 2: dealing with a self created cult of murder cannibals. All

1363
01:13:30,920 --> 01:13:32,840
Speaker 2: that said, I mean, I mean, what do you think.

1364
01:13:33,320 --> 01:13:35,880
Speaker 1: I think that's very fair to Coach Ben, And I

1365
01:13:35,960 --> 01:13:39,320
Speaker 1: think that's probably right. Listen, he has no good options

1366
01:13:39,360 --> 01:13:44,200
Speaker 1: and no allies. So ah, everything that he has to do,

1367
01:13:44,320 --> 01:13:47,760
Speaker 1: he's got to do on his own initiative. Certainly, it

1368
01:13:47,800 --> 01:13:50,080
Speaker 1: could He's absolutely right, it could still work. They could

1369
01:13:50,120 --> 01:13:53,479
Speaker 1: die of exposure. There's there's not a ton like there's

1370
01:13:53,520 --> 01:13:56,720
Speaker 1: not enough space in the tree for everybody.

1371
01:13:56,920 --> 01:14:00,479
Speaker 2: If you know, what do you think? Yeah? No, I

1372
01:14:00,479 --> 01:14:03,360
Speaker 2: love it, And Cody finishes with a perfect line. Ben

1373
01:14:03,479 --> 01:14:05,479
Speaker 2: is not making out of the wilderness. If you come

1374
01:14:05,520 --> 01:14:08,400
Speaker 2: for the antler queen, you bear not miss it. Ain't

1375
01:14:08,400 --> 01:14:11,160
Speaker 2: that the truth about yellowjackets. So I think Ben is done.

1376
01:14:11,560 --> 01:14:15,160
Speaker 2: But you know what, I understand his motivations. Cody, you

1377
01:14:15,200 --> 01:14:17,320
Speaker 2: did a great job selling us it's okay to murder

1378
01:14:17,360 --> 01:14:20,080
Speaker 2: teenagers if they're cannibal murder teens stuck in a forest.

1379
01:14:20,479 --> 01:14:22,360
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that that's fairer like you. You

1380
01:14:22,400 --> 01:14:27,439
Speaker 1: would any right thinking person would naturally be terrified for

1381
01:14:27,479 --> 01:14:28,200
Speaker 1: their life at all.

1382
01:14:28,280 --> 01:14:31,679
Speaker 2: Yes, I agree, Thank you, Cody. If you have theories

1383
01:14:31,720 --> 01:14:34,240
Speaker 2: passions are quick questions that you want to share, hit

1384
01:14:34,360 --> 01:14:37,120
Speaker 2: us up at x ray at crookeet dot com. Instructions

1385
01:14:37,160 --> 01:14:38,200
Speaker 2: in the show notes.

1386
01:14:41,360 --> 01:14:42,439
Speaker 1: Well that's it for us, Rosie.

1387
01:14:42,439 --> 01:14:45,679
Speaker 2: Any plugs, just that we have a live show coming up,

1388
01:14:45,760 --> 01:14:48,160
Speaker 2: So tell everyone all about that, because that's really cool

1389
01:14:48,200 --> 01:14:50,200
Speaker 2: and we want to make sure everyone gets to enjoy it.

1390
01:14:52,720 --> 01:14:54,840
Speaker 1: Well. First, our next episode of Extra Vision will be

1391
01:14:54,880 --> 01:14:57,360
Speaker 1: on June twenty eighth, and that is our live episode.

1392
01:14:57,400 --> 01:15:01,240
Speaker 1: We're taping it on June twenty sixth. If you're in LA,

1393
01:15:01,280 --> 01:15:04,559
Speaker 1: please come if you're available. If you're not or you

1394
01:15:04,600 --> 01:15:08,000
Speaker 1: can't make it to the site, there's a live stream

1395
01:15:08,080 --> 01:15:10,960
Speaker 1: and information for that will be at cricket dot com

1396
01:15:11,000 --> 01:15:13,599
Speaker 1: slash x ray Live. Can buy your tickets to join

1397
01:15:13,640 --> 01:15:16,639
Speaker 1: the live stream, and the topic of conversation is gonna

1398
01:15:16,640 --> 01:15:20,520
Speaker 1: be the fifteenth anniversary of the sequel to Batman. Begins

1399
01:15:20,680 --> 01:15:23,800
Speaker 1: the famous the Dark Night I ever heard of it?

1400
01:15:24,320 --> 01:15:27,880
Speaker 1: Ever heard of it? Heath Ledger's iconic turn is the Joker,

1401
01:15:27,920 --> 01:15:30,000
Speaker 1: and we'll please announce it. Two of our special guests

1402
01:15:30,000 --> 01:15:35,080
Speaker 1: at this time Chaserano, noted multi time New York Times

1403
01:15:35,120 --> 01:15:40,160
Speaker 1: bestselling author, showrunner and creator of Primo on Amazon Prime.

1404
01:15:41,080 --> 01:15:46,280
Speaker 1: N Joel Monique, noted comics and pop culture figure. Go

1405
01:15:46,360 --> 01:15:48,960
Speaker 1: to cricket dot com slash x ray Love to get

1406
01:15:49,000 --> 01:15:50,760
Speaker 1: your live stream tickets.

1407
01:15:50,400 --> 01:15:53,120
Speaker 2: And if you want to watch us before then subscribe

1408
01:15:53,120 --> 01:15:56,559
Speaker 2: on YouTube we got full episodes up there and check

1409
01:15:56,560 --> 01:15:59,000
Speaker 2: out our discord. You can join hang out and meet

1410
01:15:59,000 --> 01:16:00,800
Speaker 2: with a bunch of cool fans. I'm me and Jason

1411
01:16:00,840 --> 01:16:01,280
Speaker 2: Pulpit and.

1412
01:16:01,240 --> 01:16:03,639
Speaker 1: That once in a while five Star ray five star

1413
01:16:05,160 --> 01:16:06,600
Speaker 1: and we gotta have them. You gotta get him to

1414
01:16:06,600 --> 01:16:09,639
Speaker 1: his Here's one from Emily k a weekly must love

1415
01:16:09,680 --> 01:16:12,040
Speaker 1: this pod. Historically not a comic reader, so getting insights

1416
01:16:12,080 --> 01:16:13,960
Speaker 1: int nerd stuff from the comics is great and inspiring

1417
01:16:14,000 --> 01:16:16,000
Speaker 1: to pick up more comics and finding cars. Thank you,

1418
01:16:16,080 --> 01:16:18,240
Speaker 1: Emily Kelly. We'll see you next time.

1419
01:16:18,280 --> 01:16:19,599
Speaker 2: Bye.

1420
01:16:21,080 --> 01:16:23,000
Speaker 1: X ray Vision is a Crooked Media production. The show

1421
01:16:23,080 --> 01:16:25,280
Speaker 1: is produced by Chris Lord and Saul Rumin and executive

1422
01:16:25,280 --> 01:16:28,000
Speaker 1: produced by me Jason Concepci and our editing at sound

1423
01:16:28,040 --> 01:16:32,120
Speaker 1: design is by Facillis Phtopoulos. Video production by Delon Villanueva

1424
01:16:32,120 --> 01:16:36,759
Speaker 1: and Rachel Guayeski. Social media by Awa Oklati and Caroline Duncy.

1425
01:16:37,160 --> 01:16:38,720
Speaker 1: Thank you to Brian Basquez for our theme