WEBVTT - Polygraphs and Scent Dogs 0:00:03.279 --> 0:00:05.560 If you're gonna place your left hand on the Bible 0:00:05.600 --> 0:00:09.040 and raise your right hand, and please repeat after me 0:00:09.240 --> 0:00:13.480 and I do solemnly swear theven titled action find the 0:00:13.520 --> 0:00:16.880 defendant guilty of the crime. It makes no sense, it 0:00:16.920 --> 0:00:20.680 doesn't fit. If it doesn't fit, you must equit. We 0:00:20.760 --> 0:00:23.560 all took the same of office. We're all bound by 0:00:23.560 --> 0:00:26.840 that common commitment to support and defend the Constitution. Do you 0:00:26.800 --> 0:00:29.400 you bear true faith and allegiance to the same that 0:00:29.520 --> 0:00:32.239 you faithfully discharge the duties of our office? Do you 0:00:32.280 --> 0:00:35.640 solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to 0:00:35.640 --> 0:00:38.040 give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing 0:00:38.080 --> 0:00:41.680 but the truth. From Tenderfoot TV and I Heart Radio, 0:00:42.240 --> 0:00:50.960 this is Sworn. I'm your host, Philip Holloway. My name 0:00:51.000 --> 0:00:56.040 is William Michael Dillon. I was arrested for murder in August, 0:00:57.600 --> 0:01:01.440 for a crime I didn't commit. I'm released in November eighteen, 0:01:01.520 --> 0:01:05.000 two thousand and eight. Thank you for the keepers of 0:01:05.120 --> 0:01:11.039 justice took me away when I was a teen, not 0:01:11.200 --> 0:01:15.600 really mar than the far justly sent to Hell's prison 0:01:15.680 --> 0:01:20.120 to see my faith, only my will to survived. Let 0:01:20.160 --> 0:01:27.080 me read that game. Let me read that again. We 0:01:27.240 --> 0:01:39.240 read that a game dead said like roads and like justice. 0:01:39.280 --> 0:01:46.000 Third it will be done like go to lock. Lady 0:01:46.160 --> 0:02:06.080 just has lost its war. Song you heard at the 0:02:06.080 --> 0:02:08.880 beginning of the episode is called Black Robes and Lawyers 0:02:08.960 --> 0:02:12.840 by William Dillon. William is another innocent man who we 0:02:12.919 --> 0:02:16.680 met through the California Innocence Project. He was convicted after 0:02:16.720 --> 0:02:20.560 a series of mistakes and misconduct in the legal system. 0:02:20.560 --> 0:02:23.880 His story caught my attention because of faulty forensic evidence. 0:02:24.520 --> 0:02:28.919 I'll let him tell you about it. Before I went 0:02:28.960 --> 0:02:32.320 to prisoner was very shy when I was released. Through 0:02:32.360 --> 0:02:36.800 this journey got this voice to start talking about the journey. 0:02:38.040 --> 0:02:41.560 As horrific as it was, it was also inspiring to 0:02:41.600 --> 0:02:45.480 look back on, like walking through the fire and coming 0:02:45.520 --> 0:02:49.680 out in shiny air. When I was wrongfully convicted, I 0:02:49.720 --> 0:02:53.000 was sitting in Florida State Prison, total hellhole, and I 0:02:53.040 --> 0:02:57.480 had been put in isolation for being assaulted. They didn't 0:02:57.480 --> 0:03:00.440 allow me to have anything, so I started writing Robes 0:03:00.480 --> 0:03:02.960 and Lawyers on the toilet paper with a little plastic 0:03:03.040 --> 0:03:07.120 vendible pen that they gave me. It wasn't a song. 0:03:07.480 --> 0:03:09.720 It was sort of like a testament to the fact 0:03:09.720 --> 0:03:12.240 that nobody was listening to me, so I felt that 0:03:12.320 --> 0:03:16.680 this was a way to speak it out. My journey 0:03:16.680 --> 0:03:21.720 started in I was twenty years old, six days away 0:03:21.760 --> 0:03:26.280 from me in one and I was arrested for murder 0:03:26.320 --> 0:03:31.000 of a man on a beach. My brother part we 0:03:31.000 --> 0:03:34.800 were checking out the waves. The detectives came up to 0:03:34.840 --> 0:03:37.280 the car and told us they were investigating a murder. 0:03:38.080 --> 0:03:42.119 A man had been beaten on a beach. I told 0:03:42.200 --> 0:03:44.000 him that I didn't have anything to do with and 0:03:44.000 --> 0:03:46.560 it didn't know anything about it other than the fact 0:03:46.560 --> 0:03:48.960 that it happened over on over that side over there, 0:03:50.000 --> 0:03:52.480 and to that point that they began to ask me 0:03:52.520 --> 0:03:56.040 to get out of the car. I told him that 0:03:56.120 --> 0:03:58.880 I had a prior engagements whatever that we needed to go, 0:03:59.000 --> 0:04:02.040 and they said, okay, that's fine. Can you come back 0:04:02.040 --> 0:04:06.600 tomorrow at the Sheriff's office. I said, sure, no problem, 0:04:06.600 --> 0:04:08.440 And that was basically just to get out of there. 0:04:08.480 --> 0:04:10.760 I wasn't involved and I didn't want to be involved 0:04:10.800 --> 0:04:15.840 in it personally. Days past, I had forgotten all about 0:04:15.840 --> 0:04:20.039 our interview, and next thing you know, seems that the 0:04:20.120 --> 0:04:23.880 police had come down to a beach a few miles 0:04:23.920 --> 0:04:26.919 north of that beach to where my brother was and 0:04:26.960 --> 0:04:31.160 asked him if he had seen me. I show up 0:04:31.200 --> 0:04:34.000 there a little while later, and he says, Bill, the 0:04:34.000 --> 0:04:37.120 police were here. I called him and I told him 0:04:37.120 --> 0:04:39.720 where I was, and within a matter of minutes they 0:04:39.760 --> 0:04:43.120 were coming with sirens. Blaren came and all the exits 0:04:43.200 --> 0:04:47.320 and says, we have to take you downtown. I was 0:04:47.320 --> 0:04:49.680 a little a little scared about it, but I went 0:04:49.760 --> 0:04:54.119 with him. They questioned me, of course I really didn't 0:04:54.120 --> 0:04:56.960 know a lot of the answers answering questions of ten 0:04:57.040 --> 0:04:59.400 days prior, and one of them, where were you? I 0:04:59.440 --> 0:05:01.680 honestly did no, So I gave them a bunch of 0:05:01.680 --> 0:05:05.040 places that I might have been. It just so happens 0:05:05.040 --> 0:05:07.080 that I frequent in a bar that was across the 0:05:07.120 --> 0:05:10.479 street of the place where the man was killed. I 0:05:10.560 --> 0:05:13.640 see instances like this in my work all the time, 0:05:14.160 --> 0:05:17.000 Innocent people who talk to the police because they've got 0:05:17.040 --> 0:05:20.599 nothing to hide, at least in their mind, But unwittingly 0:05:20.720 --> 0:05:25.440 they wind up giving authorities incriminating information anyway, even if 0:05:25.480 --> 0:05:27.559 they had nothing at all to do with the case. 0:05:29.000 --> 0:05:31.560 The advice I give to people is not to talk 0:05:31.560 --> 0:05:35.360 to the police ever. Just don't do it. Hell, even 0:05:35.400 --> 0:05:37.720 the police will tell you it's in your best interest 0:05:37.920 --> 0:05:42.520 not to talk to them. It's counterintuitive. People think that 0:05:42.560 --> 0:05:45.200 if they talk to the police, they can prove their innocence. 0:05:46.000 --> 0:05:49.119 But I've seen over and over again people give away 0:05:49.160 --> 0:05:52.080 information that just happens to connect them with a crime, 0:05:52.360 --> 0:05:56.120 even one they didn't commit, things like in William's case, 0:05:56.600 --> 0:05:59.880 going to a bar nearby knowing that the crime took 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:03.680 place at all, or even knowing someone distantly connected to 0:06:03.720 --> 0:06:07.080 the case. If you give the police, or any government 0:06:07.080 --> 0:06:09.920 authority for that matter, the kind of information that even 0:06:10.000 --> 0:06:12.960 remotely connects you to a crime, or even the area 0:06:13.080 --> 0:06:17.400 of a crime, then suddenly you were involved. There are 0:06:17.600 --> 0:06:20.919 no consequences. However, if you refuse to talk to the police, 0:06:21.920 --> 0:06:24.440 you have an absolute right to remain silent. It's a 0:06:24.440 --> 0:06:27.560 constitutional right. It's one that our servicemen and women have 0:06:27.760 --> 0:06:31.320 fought and died for for generations. The police know this, 0:06:31.600 --> 0:06:34.920 judges know this, and juries are not ever even told 0:06:35.080 --> 0:06:39.760 if someone exercises their right to remain silent. Next thing, 0:06:39.760 --> 0:06:42.160 you know, she says, can you sign this piece of paper? 0:06:43.120 --> 0:06:45.080 So I looked at the paper, make sure it wasn't 0:06:45.080 --> 0:06:47.200 a confession of any kind, and it was some sort 0:06:47.240 --> 0:06:50.120 of agreements to do something or whatever that didn't involve 0:06:50.200 --> 0:06:53.800 me in my mind. So I signed the paper. She 0:06:53.920 --> 0:06:56.200 told me, before you go, we don't need this paper. 0:06:56.240 --> 0:06:57.760 Go ahead and waded up and throw it in the 0:06:57.839 --> 0:07:01.320 trash can. So I took the paper and waded it 0:07:01.400 --> 0:07:03.640 up through in the trash can. She says, no, waded 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:05.599 up real good. So I took both my hands and 0:07:05.640 --> 0:07:09.679 bawled it up like a baseball. That night, the police 0:07:09.720 --> 0:07:13.200 came back. They knocked on the door and my dad 0:07:13.240 --> 0:07:16.160 answered the door. They said, we have some questions for 0:07:16.200 --> 0:07:20.120 your son. If he passes these tests, we won't bother 0:07:20.200 --> 0:07:25.600 him anymore. They took me down to a courthouse. Finally, 0:07:25.600 --> 0:07:27.920 a man came out of another door. He says, come 0:07:28.000 --> 0:07:30.000 with me. He doesn't say who he is or nothing, 0:07:30.000 --> 0:07:33.640 he just says come with me. So I walked with him, 0:07:33.720 --> 0:07:36.080 and just to my left as I go in the 0:07:36.120 --> 0:07:39.240 door as another door with a big mirror on it. 0:07:39.240 --> 0:07:42.000 It's one way glass and there's a chair to the right, 0:07:42.040 --> 0:07:45.720 a big sofa chair. He takes that chair and turns 0:07:45.760 --> 0:07:49.600 that chair towards is facing the door, and then he 0:07:49.640 --> 0:07:52.040 tells me to sit in the chair, and he says, 0:07:52.080 --> 0:07:55.320 hold up, before you do that, face that wall, which 0:07:55.400 --> 0:07:58.440 is my left ear facing the door, and he says, 0:07:58.520 --> 0:08:01.200 take your right hand and pull your hair all the 0:08:01.240 --> 0:08:04.360 way over to the right. Now my hair is on 0:08:04.440 --> 0:08:08.160 my shoulders. Description that they put out for the killer 0:08:08.240 --> 0:08:12.000 is short haired with a dark, medium length mustache. I've 0:08:12.000 --> 0:08:14.760 never had a mustache in my life. So what he 0:08:14.800 --> 0:08:16.920 wanted me to do was look like I had short 0:08:16.960 --> 0:08:20.520 hair to somebody was behind the glass. I did not 0:08:20.680 --> 0:08:22.880 know this at the time, and it didn't occur to me. 0:08:22.960 --> 0:08:27.080 I was just passing their test. Supposedly, the man that 0:08:27.160 --> 0:08:30.200 had picked up the killer was behind the glass, and 0:08:30.240 --> 0:08:33.080 he was supposed to be identifying whoever it was that 0:08:33.120 --> 0:08:37.080 they had in the room. I was supposed to look 0:08:37.120 --> 0:08:39.920 like I was a passenger in his vehicle, so if 0:08:39.920 --> 0:08:42.920 he looks at me, he's looking at my left side. 0:08:43.800 --> 0:08:47.320 He was legally blind, but of course he was driving 0:08:47.320 --> 0:08:49.440 a car, and I've always asked that question, how can 0:08:49.480 --> 0:08:53.760 somebody be legally blind and driving a truck. So what 0:08:53.840 --> 0:08:55.680 they did is they made me come in and look 0:08:55.679 --> 0:08:58.160 at the wall, pull my hair all the way over 0:08:58.200 --> 0:09:01.040 to the right, so it looked like I had short 0:09:01.080 --> 0:09:05.559 hair to a person that can't see that well. Eyewitness 0:09:05.640 --> 0:09:10.080 testimony is questionable and dangerous to begin with, But when 0:09:10.080 --> 0:09:13.600 William was telling me this story, I was shocked at 0:09:13.600 --> 0:09:16.600 the links these investigators took to match him with the 0:09:16.679 --> 0:09:20.360 description of the criminal. I have never in my career 0:09:20.480 --> 0:09:22.960 heard of an instance where a suspect was asked to 0:09:23.160 --> 0:09:27.320 alter his or her appearance to better fit an eyewitness description, 0:09:27.800 --> 0:09:32.079 let alone from a man who is legally blind. There 0:09:32.080 --> 0:09:35.079 have been huge advances in what we now know about 0:09:35.120 --> 0:09:38.840 eyewitness testimony and the problems associated with it since this 0:09:38.960 --> 0:09:41.600 case occurred, But I'm honestly shocked that this kind of 0:09:41.600 --> 0:09:47.240 procedure happened in my lifetime. Facts be known as the 0:09:47.240 --> 0:09:49.920 guy did not ide me, but they lied. They said 0:09:49.920 --> 0:09:53.240 that he did, and then they started to tumble from 0:09:53.280 --> 0:09:57.360 that point on. Within a matter of minutes, doors slam's 0:09:57.400 --> 0:10:00.200 open and a big, huge, gentleman shepherd starts, I mean 0:10:00.240 --> 0:10:04.320 into the room. The dog's name was harassed too. He 0:10:04.440 --> 0:10:07.840 came over by me, sniffed all around me. It was 0:10:08.000 --> 0:10:11.199 kind of frightening. The officer pulled him back and says, 0:10:11.480 --> 0:10:14.120 how does it feel to be tracked by? Harassed too? 0:10:14.679 --> 0:10:16.600 He walked out the room and never saw him again. 0:10:18.360 --> 0:10:22.360 The dog Harassed Too was used to snip on the 0:10:22.360 --> 0:10:26.280 paper that I watered up. Then they supposedly watered up 0:10:26.320 --> 0:10:29.280 four other pieces of paper put it in the lineup, 0:10:29.480 --> 0:10:32.319 and harass Too is supposed to have picked my piece 0:10:32.320 --> 0:10:34.800 of paper off of a shirt that the killer left 0:10:34.840 --> 0:10:39.280 in a truck. And that's really what made me the suspect. 0:10:41.840 --> 0:10:46.120 Along with that salty eyewitness testimony, this aspect of William's case, 0:10:46.360 --> 0:10:49.240 the use of a scent dog, struck me as an 0:10:49.240 --> 0:10:53.959 important aspect of the legal system. What scientific processes are 0:10:54.040 --> 0:10:57.840 police investigators using to find criminals and what happens when 0:10:57.880 --> 0:11:01.600 that science is not used the right When I'm not 0:11:01.640 --> 0:11:04.160 working on this podcast or working on my own cases 0:11:04.160 --> 0:11:07.760 in court, sometimes I'm brought into our sister podcast Up 0:11:07.800 --> 0:11:11.520 and vanished. Fans of that show might recognize the next 0:11:11.559 --> 0:11:15.560 woman we spoke with, Tracy Sergeant, is a certified canine 0:11:15.559 --> 0:11:19.680 search and rescue specialist. After hearing about how William's case 0:11:19.800 --> 0:11:22.120 was led astray by a scent dog, I wanted to 0:11:22.120 --> 0:11:25.520 speak with Tracy about how she uses her canines and 0:11:25.559 --> 0:11:29.080 the ways in which they should and should not be used, 0:11:29.160 --> 0:11:36.000 particularly in criminal cases. My name is Tracy Trace Sergeant. 0:11:36.760 --> 0:11:40.840 I've been involved with canine operations for about twenty seven years, 0:11:41.640 --> 0:11:45.520 currently involved in investigations and missing person cases as well 0:11:45.559 --> 0:11:49.200 as production work. The question I get quite often is 0:11:49.240 --> 0:11:51.480 that how do you make your dogs do this, Tracy? 0:11:51.520 --> 0:11:54.440 And I'm like, oh, I do not. I'm really the 0:11:54.520 --> 0:11:58.200 chauffeur so to speak, to transport the dogs to the 0:11:58.240 --> 0:12:01.520 locations that we need them to serve, and then we 0:12:01.640 --> 0:12:05.800 just let the magic happen. My dogs are specifically trained 0:12:05.840 --> 0:12:08.800 to find missing persons, both dead and alive, and that's 0:12:08.800 --> 0:12:12.840 all they do. They tell us two things every time 0:12:13.160 --> 0:12:16.079 that they are used, regardless of the case, whether it's 0:12:16.120 --> 0:12:19.800 a life person or a deceased person. Those two things 0:12:19.840 --> 0:12:22.960 are they'll tell us where something is, and they'll tell 0:12:23.040 --> 0:12:26.360 us where something isn't. And it's interesting, Phil, When I 0:12:26.400 --> 0:12:31.319 started this, I was really blindfolded and you know, focusing 0:12:31.360 --> 0:12:36.200 on finding what we're looking for. Through the years and 0:12:36.280 --> 0:12:40.160 my experience, I've discovered that knowing where somebody isn't it 0:12:40.240 --> 0:12:43.960 is just as important and as helpful as whereas somebody is. 0:12:45.440 --> 0:12:49.320 For a life sent dog, we all smell very unique 0:12:49.520 --> 0:12:54.280 and different to that dog. But when we die, regardless 0:12:54.320 --> 0:12:58.320 of our background, whether we're male or female, or demographics 0:12:58.360 --> 0:13:01.000 where we live. It is a matter to the dog. 0:13:02.080 --> 0:13:06.800 Death is life's perfect equalizer. Human remains scent is human 0:13:06.840 --> 0:13:10.600 remains scent to the dogs, regardless of how long that 0:13:10.640 --> 0:13:15.000 person has been deceased. I asked Tracy what made dogs 0:13:15.040 --> 0:13:19.240 in particular a good resource for finding missing people. They 0:13:19.280 --> 0:13:23.120 have to have that keen sense of smell just to survive. Also, 0:13:23.240 --> 0:13:26.959 their body is actually designed in such a way that 0:13:27.080 --> 0:13:31.920 makes them the perfect scent detecting machine, so to speak. 0:13:32.960 --> 0:13:37.920 The way their brain is shaped and design their nose, 0:13:38.760 --> 0:13:42.840 their ears, their drive to want to use that nose. 0:13:43.679 --> 0:13:47.320 We live through our eyes. Dogs live through their nose. 0:13:48.520 --> 0:13:51.720 When you look at it from that perspective, it really 0:13:51.840 --> 0:13:55.480 is a different way of looking at the world. And 0:13:55.520 --> 0:13:58.680 I would say the biggest difference between them and let's 0:13:58.720 --> 0:14:01.560 say other animals that also have a very keen sense 0:14:01.600 --> 0:14:06.559 of smell is that bond and relationship that dogs want 0:14:06.600 --> 0:14:11.120 to have with us naturally, and that's what sets them apart. 0:14:12.120 --> 0:14:17.000 They are truly the epitome of man's best friend. In 0:14:17.080 --> 0:14:20.120 one part, it's a unique situation. They are a partner, 0:14:20.400 --> 0:14:24.400 they are part of the investigative team, They are also 0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:28.240 a very unique resource or tool in the toolbox the 0:14:28.320 --> 0:14:38.280 investigators use. However, dogs should not be associated with That's 0:14:38.320 --> 0:14:41.120 the only thing that this case is going to stand on. 0:14:42.920 --> 0:14:47.600 We are a very small part of this investigative puzzle 0:14:48.120 --> 0:14:53.640 that we're trying to put together. We meaning myself, other investigators, 0:14:54.000 --> 0:14:59.600 law enforcement, the family, even the media. Whatever my dogs 0:14:59.760 --> 0:15:04.360 do or don't do, it's not quote a smoking gun, 0:15:04.520 --> 0:15:08.760 so to speak. It's simply part of the investigation. It 0:15:08.800 --> 0:15:13.640 should be based on the strength of the evidence and 0:15:14.880 --> 0:15:20.040 compounded by whatever additional evidence they have in addition to 0:15:20.120 --> 0:15:23.520 what the dogs do or don't do. Can your dogs 0:15:23.560 --> 0:15:28.760 identify someone in the lineup from evidence that's found at 0:15:28.760 --> 0:15:31.520 a crime scene? In other words, can they match a 0:15:31.560 --> 0:15:37.320 specific person with a specific item of evidence. I would say, 0:15:37.520 --> 0:15:39.880 you can train a dog if it has the right 0:15:40.000 --> 0:15:43.840 drives and temperament and personality, you can train them for 0:15:43.880 --> 0:15:48.480 almost anything. So I would say, as a broad stroke answer, yes, 0:15:49.600 --> 0:15:54.040 but it's not something that I do personally. My dogs 0:15:54.040 --> 0:15:56.520 aren't trained to do that, nor would I train my 0:15:56.600 --> 0:16:01.920 dogs to do that. Dog handlers and dogs themselves, everybody 0:16:02.040 --> 0:16:06.560 is different. How they approach something might be a little 0:16:06.600 --> 0:16:13.600 bit different. But nonetheless the same amount of professionalism, ethics, 0:16:14.120 --> 0:16:20.560 and integrity and character and honesty, preparation, preparing yourself as 0:16:20.600 --> 0:16:25.720 a handler, that means mentally physically in the training, preparing 0:16:25.760 --> 0:16:29.120 the dog, and again that means physically mentally in training. 0:16:30.040 --> 0:16:52.680 All of that is the important part of it. After 0:16:52.720 --> 0:16:54.520 talking with Tracy, I feel like I had a better 0:16:54.560 --> 0:16:57.000 handle on how canines can be used as just one 0:16:57.040 --> 0:17:00.480 of many tools in an investigation. But I know from 0:17:00.480 --> 0:17:03.320 the cases that I see all the time that some 0:17:03.560 --> 0:17:06.520 science is junk science and it simply should not be 0:17:06.680 --> 0:17:09.359 used at all, or at least not in the way 0:17:09.480 --> 0:17:13.119 that it is commonly used in the criminal justice system. 0:17:13.160 --> 0:17:16.680 Some of this so called science has become outdated, it's 0:17:16.720 --> 0:17:20.359 become debunked. I wanted to speak with an expert on 0:17:20.480 --> 0:17:25.120 the legal ramifications of debunk science, somebody who sees these 0:17:25.119 --> 0:17:29.439 types of cases all the time. This is Amelia max Field. 0:17:30.760 --> 0:17:34.000 I'm the forensic science specialist at the Pennsylvania Innocence Project. 0:17:35.320 --> 0:17:38.440 To the bulk of our work is trying to rectify 0:17:38.440 --> 0:17:42.040 a wrongful conviction. On the back end, my caseload is 0:17:42.119 --> 0:17:46.240 primarily flawed forensic science cases, cases where a person was 0:17:46.320 --> 0:17:49.919 convicted based on a science that either was invalid at 0:17:49.960 --> 0:17:53.520 the time or was used improperly. It's so hard to 0:17:53.560 --> 0:17:55.439 pick mistakes on the back end. If we can make 0:17:55.440 --> 0:17:57.760 a difference on the front end and educating judges and 0:17:57.840 --> 0:18:01.280 juries and lawyers about these issues, and in trying to 0:18:01.400 --> 0:18:05.119 keep unreliable forensic sciences out of court in the first place, 0:18:06.000 --> 0:18:09.080 we can make a bigger difference in ensuring that block 0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:14.440 forensic sciences aren't being used in court. Forensic science developed 0:18:14.560 --> 0:18:18.480 in the law enforcement community, save for DNA testing, which 0:18:18.520 --> 0:18:23.080 was developed as an actual science, all other forensic sciences 0:18:23.160 --> 0:18:27.960 were developed as front fighting tools, not as sciences. These 0:18:27.960 --> 0:18:30.960 things were admitted in court for work decades without anyone 0:18:31.200 --> 0:18:35.440 questioning whether or not they were valid. In two thousand nine, 0:18:35.480 --> 0:18:38.720 the National Academies of Science issued kind of a landmark 0:18:38.880 --> 0:18:42.560 report looking at forensic science, and they found that everything 0:18:42.640 --> 0:18:48.600 except for nuclear DNA testing lacked scientific validity. Essentially, it 0:18:48.720 --> 0:18:53.960 undermined every forensic science except for straightforward nuclear DNA testing, 0:18:54.040 --> 0:18:58.080 so that even doesn't include things like DNA mixture analysis, 0:18:58.160 --> 0:19:02.399 which has some limits as well. I asked Amelia which 0:19:02.440 --> 0:19:05.960 forensic sciences are the most unreliable and just why some 0:19:06.080 --> 0:19:09.640 of these common law enforcement tools can be considered more 0:19:09.720 --> 0:19:14.359 subjective than scientific any discipline where as a human is 0:19:14.400 --> 0:19:16.760 just looking at the futures of one item and then 0:19:16.760 --> 0:19:19.080 looking at the features of another item and comparing them 0:19:19.080 --> 0:19:22.160 to determine whether they match or not. Things like white 0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:26.920 mark care comparison, tire shot analysis, old school arts and analysis, 0:19:27.520 --> 0:19:29.159 and even where you are just looking at a pattern 0:19:29.240 --> 0:19:33.320 and not even includes fingerprint analysis. Fingerprint analysis and ARSON 0:19:33.400 --> 0:19:35.760 are the only ones since two thousand nine that have 0:19:35.880 --> 0:19:40.280 gone back and tried to validy, But traditionally fingerprint analysis 0:19:40.320 --> 0:19:43.720 is just a person comparing two pictures of fingerprints and 0:19:43.760 --> 0:19:47.880 determining for themselves whether or not they matched. I think 0:19:47.880 --> 0:19:51.320 if you pulled the average criminal defense layer an average prosecutor, 0:19:51.359 --> 0:19:54.240 they wouldn't really know how a fingerprint is examined. They 0:19:54.240 --> 0:19:56.760 would assume it's like C S I and someone puts 0:19:56.760 --> 0:19:58.800 it into a fancily computer and then it spits out 0:19:58.840 --> 0:20:01.720 a match. That's actually not how it works at all. 0:20:02.920 --> 0:20:05.359 Working in a state lab is a grueling job. You 0:20:05.359 --> 0:20:10.080 have an extremely high caseload, you are not paid extremely well, 0:20:10.520 --> 0:20:14.280 and your access to continuing education into proper training is 0:20:14.280 --> 0:20:18.080 pretty limited. Most people are expected to sort of learn 0:20:18.119 --> 0:20:22.040 on the job, whereas we should be training experts in 0:20:22.119 --> 0:20:27.080 a uniform and unbiased way. Most labs are in the 0:20:27.119 --> 0:20:31.080 control of the state, so even though individual analysts don't 0:20:31.080 --> 0:20:33.640 necessarily think of themselves as an arm of the prosecution, 0:20:34.240 --> 0:20:37.400 they really are part of the prosecution team. They're funding 0:20:37.560 --> 0:20:41.000 typically comes through the state and the district attorney's budget. 0:20:41.080 --> 0:20:45.960 Sometimes we should have some sort of licensing body, something 0:20:46.000 --> 0:20:48.720 similar to the f d A, to test out emerging 0:20:48.760 --> 0:20:51.440 forensic sciences to be sure that they're valid before they're 0:20:51.480 --> 0:20:56.680 admitted in court. Many of these unreliable forensic sciences were 0:20:56.720 --> 0:21:00.840 first admitted in very high profile cases. The first time 0:21:00.880 --> 0:21:03.200 bite marks were admitted in Florida was in the Ted 0:21:03.240 --> 0:21:07.000 Bundy case. The prosecution really needs a conviction, so they 0:21:07.080 --> 0:21:10.600 reach outside of the bounds of what the discipline can 0:21:10.600 --> 0:21:16.520 actually say and admit an unvalid discipline, And in a 0:21:16.560 --> 0:21:19.080 case like that, a judge is much less likely to 0:21:19.840 --> 0:21:22.920 not admit evidence that could convict someone because the stakes 0:21:22.920 --> 0:21:27.400 are higher. I think we need some sort of body 0:21:27.440 --> 0:21:32.320 to validate these disciplines as they emerge. Science inherently evolved. 0:21:33.200 --> 0:21:36.040 If you're going to be using evidence that changes and 0:21:36.080 --> 0:21:39.399 developed to secure conviction, you have to be open to 0:21:39.480 --> 0:21:43.000 revisiting that conviction as the science or the evidence changes 0:21:43.040 --> 0:22:07.760 and evolved. Because so many of these wrongful conviction cases 0:22:07.840 --> 0:22:12.000 include flawed forensic science. There's a lot more to cover here, 0:22:12.640 --> 0:22:17.720 particularly as Amelia mentioned the problems with bite marks. But 0:22:17.800 --> 0:22:21.600 a perfect storm of circumstances came together in William's case 0:22:21.880 --> 0:22:25.000 that led to his wrongful conviction, and there's more to 0:22:25.160 --> 0:22:30.960 his story. So they take me and put me in 0:22:30.960 --> 0:22:34.160 a room with a bunch of police officers. It's not 0:22:34.200 --> 0:22:36.040 like the television where they put you in a room 0:22:36.040 --> 0:22:38.159 and there's two guys come in and talk to you. 0:22:38.200 --> 0:22:40.800 And this is like five, six of them. They were 0:22:40.800 --> 0:22:43.159 all different places, and they're all talking to me at 0:22:43.200 --> 0:22:47.800 once about different things. And I kept admirably denying any 0:22:47.840 --> 0:22:52.560 involvement in I didn't know any answers. I wasn't involved. Finally, 0:22:52.560 --> 0:22:54.720 they said, will you take a lot of detector tests? 0:22:54.720 --> 0:22:57.800 And I said, sure, I will. So they put me 0:22:57.960 --> 0:23:00.840 in a jail cell, gave me this plastic mattress with 0:23:00.920 --> 0:23:04.520 no sheets, no pellos, no nothing. I go up to 0:23:04.520 --> 0:23:07.360 the lie detector, do everything he tells me to do. 0:23:08.400 --> 0:23:12.359 The chief investigator, he says, we got you your lying. 0:23:13.560 --> 0:23:15.240 I said, you got the wrong guys said, and I 0:23:15.280 --> 0:23:16.960 don't have anything to do with it. Must be something 0:23:17.000 --> 0:23:21.320 wrong with your machine. The results of polygraph tests or 0:23:21.600 --> 0:23:24.560 lie detectors are not admissible in court. And there's a 0:23:24.560 --> 0:23:28.879 good reason. I know from first hand personal experience that 0:23:29.000 --> 0:23:31.879 it is possible to fail a lot of detector tests 0:23:31.880 --> 0:23:35.200 on purpose. It is possible to pass a lot detector 0:23:35.280 --> 0:23:37.720 tests when you have lied, and it is possible to 0:23:37.960 --> 0:23:40.280 fail a lot of detector tests when you have told 0:23:40.320 --> 0:23:44.240 the truth. Polygraphs and a lot of detectors are simply unreliable, 0:23:44.280 --> 0:23:46.879 and the only people that I know who advocate for 0:23:47.000 --> 0:23:50.760 their use these days are the polygraph examiners themselves, the 0:23:50.800 --> 0:23:56.040 people who have an interest in the business surviving. Eventually, 0:23:56.400 --> 0:23:58.800 they had gotten tired and they were ranting, and Raven 0:23:58.800 --> 0:24:00.640 and I kept putting up to say a thing, and 0:24:00.640 --> 0:24:04.520 finally I said, Okay, we'll offer you five years manslaughter. 0:24:05.240 --> 0:24:07.399 Don't worry about it. You'll do the two years and 0:24:07.440 --> 0:24:09.960 you'll be on your own. You'll beat free. I said, 0:24:10.200 --> 0:24:12.280 I'm not taking any deals. I didn't have anything to 0:24:12.320 --> 0:24:15.320 do with it. I'm not taking no kind of deal. Finally, 0:24:15.359 --> 0:24:17.560 I said, okay, we're gonna put you in an electric chair. 0:24:17.600 --> 0:24:20.679 You're gonna be arrested for first degree murder felony murder. 0:24:21.520 --> 0:24:24.520 I said, you got the wrong guy. They locked me 0:24:24.640 --> 0:24:28.760 up and sent me to the county jail. Another commonality 0:24:28.800 --> 0:24:31.399 that we see among people who are wrongfully in prison 0:24:31.920 --> 0:24:34.760 is the situation where the government comes along and they 0:24:34.800 --> 0:24:39.439 offer an incredible deal if someone just pleads guilty. I 0:24:39.520 --> 0:24:44.800 was arrested on August and I was convicted by November. 0:24:45.680 --> 0:24:49.280 I saw my lawyer twice. He asked me to write 0:24:49.280 --> 0:24:52.960 down what I remember about the night. The next time 0:24:53.040 --> 0:24:57.000 I saw him was to get a haircut. When William 0:24:57.040 --> 0:24:59.760 told me he only saw his lawyer twice before his trial, 0:25:00.280 --> 0:25:04.240 I was horrified. That's just not enough time to get 0:25:04.280 --> 0:25:08.159 the job done right now. I get the defense council, 0:25:08.240 --> 0:25:12.919 particularly public defenders. They're often stretched thin, but it's like 0:25:13.040 --> 0:25:15.840 going to a good barber with bad scissors. They may 0:25:15.880 --> 0:25:18.119 have the best of intentions, but if they don't have 0:25:18.240 --> 0:25:20.879 the tools or the time to get the job done, 0:25:21.240 --> 0:25:26.000 you're going to get a bad result. My experience in 0:25:26.080 --> 0:25:31.280 the trial was very aggravating for me, not factual in 0:25:31.320 --> 0:25:35.520 any way. Most of the information came from people that 0:25:35.600 --> 0:25:38.760 I had given the police, people I might have been 0:25:38.800 --> 0:25:41.760 with on the night of the murder took place. Their 0:25:41.840 --> 0:25:45.800 statements initially were that I wasn't involved, but progressively their 0:25:45.840 --> 0:25:49.840 statements got worse and worse as time went on. The 0:25:49.960 --> 0:25:52.840 next thing, I knew my friends that I told him 0:25:52.840 --> 0:25:55.879 I was either at their place or somewhere, have me 0:25:56.080 --> 0:25:58.840 with blood on me in a shirt that was found 0:25:58.920 --> 0:26:02.600