1 00:00:03,279 --> 00:00:05,560 Speaker 1: If you're gonna place your left hand on the Bible 2 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:09,040 Speaker 1: and raise your right hand, and please repeat after me 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: and I do solemnly swear theven titled action find the 4 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 1: defendant guilty of the crime. It makes no sense, it 5 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:20,680 Speaker 1: doesn't fit. If it doesn't fit, you must equit. We 6 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 1: all took the same of office. We're all bound by 7 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:26,840 Speaker 1: that common commitment to support and defend the Constitution. Do you 8 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 1: you bear true faith and allegiance to the same that 9 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:32,239 Speaker 1: you faithfully discharge the duties of our office? Do you 10 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 1: solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to 11 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 1: give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing 12 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 1: but the truth. From Tenderfoot TV and I Heart Radio, 13 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:50,960 Speaker 1: this is Sworn. I'm your host, Philip Holloway. My name 14 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:56,040 Speaker 1: is William Michael Dillon. I was arrested for murder in August, 15 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 1: for a crime I didn't commit. I'm released in November eighteen, 16 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 1: two thousand and eight. Thank you for the keepers of 17 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:11,039 Speaker 1: justice took me away when I was a teen, not 18 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 1: really mar than the far justly sent to Hell's prison 19 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:20,120 Speaker 1: to see my faith, only my will to survived. Let 20 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 1: me read that game. Let me read that again. We 21 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 1: read that a game dead said like roads and like justice. 22 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 1: Third it will be done like go to lock. Lady 23 00:01:46,160 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 1: just has lost its war. Song you heard at the 24 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 1: beginning of the episode is called Black Robes and Lawyers 25 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 1: by William Dillon. William is another innocent man who we 26 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 1: met through the California Innocence Project. He was convicted after 27 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 1: a series of mistakes and misconduct in the legal system. 28 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 1: His story caught my attention because of faulty forensic evidence. 29 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:28,919 Speaker 1: I'll let him tell you about it. Before I went 30 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 1: to prisoner was very shy when I was released. Through 31 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:36,800 Speaker 1: this journey got this voice to start talking about the journey. 32 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 1: As horrific as it was, it was also inspiring to 33 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:45,480 Speaker 1: look back on, like walking through the fire and coming 34 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 1: out in shiny air. When I was wrongfully convicted, I 35 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 1: was sitting in Florida State Prison, total hellhole, and I 36 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 1: had been put in isolation for being assaulted. They didn't 37 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 1: allow me to have anything, so I started writing Robes 38 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 1: and Lawyers on the toilet paper with a little plastic 39 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 1: vendible pen that they gave me. It wasn't a song. 40 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 1: It was sort of like a testament to the fact 41 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:12,240 Speaker 1: that nobody was listening to me, so I felt that 42 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 1: this was a way to speak it out. My journey 43 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 1: started in I was twenty years old, six days away 44 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 1: from me in one and I was arrested for murder 45 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 1: of a man on a beach. My brother part we 46 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 1: were checking out the waves. The detectives came up to 47 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 1: the car and told us they were investigating a murder. 48 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:42,119 Speaker 1: A man had been beaten on a beach. I told 49 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 1: him that I didn't have anything to do with and 50 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 1: it didn't know anything about it other than the fact 51 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 1: that it happened over on over that side over there, 52 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 1: and to that point that they began to ask me 53 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 1: to get out of the car. I told him that 54 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 1: I had a prior engagements whatever that we needed to go, 55 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 1: and they said, okay, that's fine. Can you come back 56 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 1: tomorrow at the Sheriff's office. I said, sure, no problem, 57 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 1: And that was basically just to get out of there. 58 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 1: I wasn't involved and I didn't want to be involved 59 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:15,840 Speaker 1: in it personally. Days past, I had forgotten all about 60 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:20,039 Speaker 1: our interview, and next thing you know, seems that the 61 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 1: police had come down to a beach a few miles 62 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:26,919 Speaker 1: north of that beach to where my brother was and 63 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:31,160 Speaker 1: asked him if he had seen me. I show up 64 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 1: there a little while later, and he says, Bill, the 65 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 1: police were here. I called him and I told him 66 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:39,720 Speaker 1: where I was, and within a matter of minutes they 67 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 1: were coming with sirens. Blaren came and all the exits 68 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 1: and says, we have to take you downtown. I was 69 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 1: a little a little scared about it, but I went 70 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:54,119 Speaker 1: with him. They questioned me, of course I really didn't 71 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 1: know a lot of the answers answering questions of ten 72 00:04:57,040 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 1: days prior, and one of them, where were you? I 73 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 1: honestly did no, So I gave them a bunch of 74 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:05,040 Speaker 1: places that I might have been. It just so happens 75 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 1: that I frequent in a bar that was across the 76 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:10,479 Speaker 1: street of the place where the man was killed. I 77 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 1: see instances like this in my work all the time, 78 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 1: Innocent people who talk to the police because they've got 79 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:20,599 Speaker 1: nothing to hide, at least in their mind, But unwittingly 80 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 1: they wind up giving authorities incriminating information anyway, even if 81 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:27,559 Speaker 1: they had nothing at all to do with the case. 82 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 1: The advice I give to people is not to talk 83 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:35,360 Speaker 1: to the police ever. Just don't do it. Hell, even 84 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:37,720 Speaker 1: the police will tell you it's in your best interest 85 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 1: not to talk to them. It's counterintuitive. People think that 86 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:45,200 Speaker 1: if they talk to the police, they can prove their innocence. 87 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:49,119 Speaker 1: But I've seen over and over again people give away 88 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 1: information that just happens to connect them with a crime, 89 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 1: even one they didn't commit, things like in William's case, 90 00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 1: going to a bar nearby knowing that the crime took 91 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 1: place at all, or even knowing someone distantly connected to 92 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 1: the case. If you give the police, or any government 93 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:09,920 Speaker 1: authority for that matter, the kind of information that even 94 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 1: remotely connects you to a crime, or even the area 95 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 1: of a crime, then suddenly you were involved. There are 96 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:20,919 Speaker 1: no consequences. However, if you refuse to talk to the police, 97 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 1: you have an absolute right to remain silent. It's a 98 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 1: constitutional right. It's one that our servicemen and women have 99 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 1: fought and died for for generations. The police know this, 100 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:34,920 Speaker 1: judges know this, and juries are not ever even told 101 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 1: if someone exercises their right to remain silent. Next thing, 102 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:42,160 Speaker 1: you know, she says, can you sign this piece of paper? 103 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 1: So I looked at the paper, make sure it wasn't 104 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 1: a confession of any kind, and it was some sort 105 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 1: of agreements to do something or whatever that didn't involve 106 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:53,800 Speaker 1: me in my mind. So I signed the paper. She 107 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 1: told me, before you go, we don't need this paper. 108 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 1: Go ahead and waded up and throw it in the 109 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 1: trash can. So I took the paper and waded it 110 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 1: up through in the trash can. She says, no, waded 111 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:05,599 Speaker 1: up real good. So I took both my hands and 112 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:09,679 Speaker 1: bawled it up like a baseball. That night, the police 113 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 1: came back. They knocked on the door and my dad 114 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 1: answered the door. They said, we have some questions for 115 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 1: your son. If he passes these tests, we won't bother 116 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 1: him anymore. They took me down to a courthouse. Finally, 117 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:27,920 Speaker 1: a man came out of another door. He says, come 118 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 1: with me. He doesn't say who he is or nothing, 119 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 1: he just says come with me. So I walked with him, 120 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:36,080 Speaker 1: and just to my left as I go in the 121 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 1: door as another door with a big mirror on it. 122 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 1: It's one way glass and there's a chair to the right, 123 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:45,720 Speaker 1: a big sofa chair. He takes that chair and turns 124 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 1: that chair towards is facing the door, and then he 125 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 1: tells me to sit in the chair, and he says, 126 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 1: hold up, before you do that, face that wall, which 127 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 1: is my left ear facing the door, and he says, 128 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 1: take your right hand and pull your hair all the 129 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 1: way over to the right. Now my hair is on 130 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 1: my shoulders. Description that they put out for the killer 131 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 1: is short haired with a dark, medium length mustache. I've 132 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 1: never had a mustache in my life. So what he 133 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 1: wanted me to do was look like I had short 134 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 1: hair to somebody was behind the glass. I did not 135 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 1: know this at the time, and it didn't occur to me. 136 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 1: I was just passing their test. Supposedly, the man that 137 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 1: had picked up the killer was behind the glass, and 138 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 1: he was supposed to be identifying whoever it was that 139 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:37,080 Speaker 1: they had in the room. I was supposed to look 140 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 1: like I was a passenger in his vehicle, so if 141 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 1: he looks at me, he's looking at my left side. 142 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:47,320 Speaker 1: He was legally blind, but of course he was driving 143 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:49,440 Speaker 1: a car, and I've always asked that question, how can 144 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 1: somebody be legally blind and driving a truck. So what 145 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:55,680 Speaker 1: they did is they made me come in and look 146 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 1: at the wall, pull my hair all the way over 147 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 1: to the right, so it looked like I had short 148 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:05,559 Speaker 1: hair to a person that can't see that well. Eyewitness 149 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:10,080 Speaker 1: testimony is questionable and dangerous to begin with, But when 150 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 1: William was telling me this story, I was shocked at 151 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 1: the links these investigators took to match him with the 152 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:20,360 Speaker 1: description of the criminal. I have never in my career 153 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:22,960 Speaker 1: heard of an instance where a suspect was asked to 154 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:27,320 Speaker 1: alter his or her appearance to better fit an eyewitness description, 155 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:32,079 Speaker 1: let alone from a man who is legally blind. There 156 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:35,079 Speaker 1: have been huge advances in what we now know about 157 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:38,840 Speaker 1: eyewitness testimony and the problems associated with it since this 158 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 1: case occurred, But I'm honestly shocked that this kind of 159 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:47,240 Speaker 1: procedure happened in my lifetime. Facts be known as the 160 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 1: guy did not ide me, but they lied. They said 161 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 1: that he did, and then they started to tumble from 162 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 1: that point on. Within a matter of minutes, doors slam's 163 00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:00,200 Speaker 1: open and a big, huge, gentleman shepherd starts, I mean 164 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:04,320 Speaker 1: into the room. The dog's name was harassed too. He 165 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:07,840 Speaker 1: came over by me, sniffed all around me. It was 166 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:11,199 Speaker 1: kind of frightening. The officer pulled him back and says, 167 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 1: how does it feel to be tracked by? Harassed too? 168 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 1: He walked out the room and never saw him again. 169 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 1: The dog Harassed Too was used to snip on the 170 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 1: paper that I watered up. Then they supposedly watered up 171 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 1: four other pieces of paper put it in the lineup, 172 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:32,319 Speaker 1: and harass Too is supposed to have picked my piece 173 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 1: of paper off of a shirt that the killer left 174 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 1: in a truck. And that's really what made me the suspect. 175 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 1: Along with that salty eyewitness testimony, this aspect of William's case, 176 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 1: the use of a scent dog, struck me as an 177 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:53,959 Speaker 1: important aspect of the legal system. What scientific processes are 178 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:57,840 Speaker 1: police investigators using to find criminals and what happens when 179 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 1: that science is not used the right When I'm not 180 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 1: working on this podcast or working on my own cases 181 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 1: in court, sometimes I'm brought into our sister podcast Up 182 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 1: and vanished. Fans of that show might recognize the next 183 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:15,560 Speaker 1: woman we spoke with, Tracy Sergeant, is a certified canine 184 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:19,680 Speaker 1: search and rescue specialist. After hearing about how William's case 185 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 1: was led astray by a scent dog, I wanted to 186 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 1: speak with Tracy about how she uses her canines and 187 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:29,080 Speaker 1: the ways in which they should and should not be used, 188 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 1: particularly in criminal cases. My name is Tracy Trace Sergeant. 189 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:40,840 Speaker 1: I've been involved with canine operations for about twenty seven years, 190 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 1: currently involved in investigations and missing person cases as well 191 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:49,200 Speaker 1: as production work. The question I get quite often is 192 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 1: that how do you make your dogs do this, Tracy? 193 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:54,440 Speaker 1: And I'm like, oh, I do not. I'm really the 194 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 1: chauffeur so to speak, to transport the dogs to the 195 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 1: locations that we need them to serve, and then we 196 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 1: just let the magic happen. My dogs are specifically trained 197 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 1: to find missing persons, both dead and alive, and that's 198 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:12,840 Speaker 1: all they do. They tell us two things every time 199 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:16,079 Speaker 1: that they are used, regardless of the case, whether it's 200 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 1: a life person or a deceased person. Those two things 201 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:22,960 Speaker 1: are they'll tell us where something is, and they'll tell 202 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 1: us where something isn't. And it's interesting, Phil, When I 203 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:31,319 Speaker 1: started this, I was really blindfolded and you know, focusing 204 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:36,200 Speaker 1: on finding what we're looking for. Through the years and 205 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 1: my experience, I've discovered that knowing where somebody isn't it 206 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:43,960 Speaker 1: is just as important and as helpful as whereas somebody is. 207 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:49,320 Speaker 1: For a life sent dog, we all smell very unique 208 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 1: and different to that dog. But when we die, regardless 209 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:58,320 Speaker 1: of our background, whether we're male or female, or demographics 210 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:01,000 Speaker 1: where we live. It is a matter to the dog. 211 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 1: Death is life's perfect equalizer. Human remains scent is human 212 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 1: remains scent to the dogs, regardless of how long that 213 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 1: person has been deceased. I asked Tracy what made dogs 214 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 1: in particular a good resource for finding missing people. They 215 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 1: have to have that keen sense of smell just to survive. Also, 216 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:26,959 Speaker 1: their body is actually designed in such a way that 217 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 1: makes them the perfect scent detecting machine, so to speak. 218 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:37,920 Speaker 1: The way their brain is shaped and design their nose, 219 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:42,840 Speaker 1: their ears, their drive to want to use that nose. 220 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:47,320 Speaker 1: We live through our eyes. Dogs live through their nose. 221 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 1: When you look at it from that perspective, it really 222 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 1: is a different way of looking at the world. And 223 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:58,680 Speaker 1: I would say the biggest difference between them and let's 224 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:01,560 Speaker 1: say other animals that also have a very keen sense 225 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:06,559 Speaker 1: of smell is that bond and relationship that dogs want 226 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 1: to have with us naturally, and that's what sets them apart. 227 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 1: They are truly the epitome of man's best friend. In 228 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 1: one part, it's a unique situation. They are a partner, 229 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:24,400 Speaker 1: they are part of the investigative team, They are also 230 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 1: a very unique resource or tool in the toolbox the 231 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 1: investigators use. However, dogs should not be associated with That's 232 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 1: the only thing that this case is going to stand on. 233 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 1: We are a very small part of this investigative puzzle 234 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 1: that we're trying to put together. We meaning myself, other investigators, 235 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 1: law enforcement, the family, even the media. Whatever my dogs 236 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 1: do or don't do, it's not quote a smoking gun, 237 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 1: so to speak. It's simply part of the investigation. It 238 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 1: should be based on the strength of the evidence and 239 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 1: compounded by whatever additional evidence they have in addition to 240 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 1: what the dogs do or don't do. Can your dogs 241 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:28,760 Speaker 1: identify someone in the lineup from evidence that's found at 242 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 1: a crime scene? In other words, can they match a 243 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 1: specific person with a specific item of evidence. I would say, 244 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 1: you can train a dog if it has the right 245 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:43,840 Speaker 1: drives and temperament and personality, you can train them for 246 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:48,480 Speaker 1: almost anything. So I would say, as a broad stroke answer, yes, 247 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 1: but it's not something that I do personally. My dogs 248 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 1: aren't trained to do that, nor would I train my 249 00:15:56,600 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 1: dogs to do that. Dog handlers and dogs themselves, everybody 250 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 1: is different. How they approach something might be a little 251 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 1: bit different. But nonetheless the same amount of professionalism, ethics, 252 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:20,560 Speaker 1: and integrity and character and honesty, preparation, preparing yourself as 253 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:25,720 Speaker 1: a handler, that means mentally physically in the training, preparing 254 00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:29,120 Speaker 1: the dog, and again that means physically mentally in training. 255 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 1: All of that is the important part of it. After 256 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 1: talking with Tracy, I feel like I had a better 257 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 1: handle on how canines can be used as just one 258 00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 1: of many tools in an investigation. But I know from 259 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 1: the cases that I see all the time that some 260 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 1: science is junk science and it simply should not be 261 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:09,359 Speaker 1: used at all, or at least not in the way 262 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:13,119 Speaker 1: that it is commonly used in the criminal justice system. 263 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:16,680 Speaker 1: Some of this so called science has become outdated, it's 264 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:20,359 Speaker 1: become debunked. I wanted to speak with an expert on 265 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:25,120 Speaker 1: the legal ramifications of debunk science, somebody who sees these 266 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:29,439 Speaker 1: types of cases all the time. This is Amelia max Field. 267 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 1: I'm the forensic science specialist at the Pennsylvania Innocence Project. 268 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:38,440 Speaker 1: To the bulk of our work is trying to rectify 269 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: a wrongful conviction. On the back end, my caseload is 270 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 1: primarily flawed forensic science cases, cases where a person was 271 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:49,919 Speaker 1: convicted based on a science that either was invalid at 272 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 1: the time or was used improperly. It's so hard to 273 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:55,439 Speaker 1: pick mistakes on the back end. If we can make 274 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 1: a difference on the front end and educating judges and 275 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 1: juries and lawyers about these issues, and in trying to 276 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:05,119 Speaker 1: keep unreliable forensic sciences out of court in the first place, 277 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:09,080 Speaker 1: we can make a bigger difference in ensuring that block 278 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:14,440 Speaker 1: forensic sciences aren't being used in court. Forensic science developed 279 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 1: in the law enforcement community, save for DNA testing, which 280 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:23,080 Speaker 1: was developed as an actual science, all other forensic sciences 281 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:27,960 Speaker 1: were developed as front fighting tools, not as sciences. These 282 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:30,960 Speaker 1: things were admitted in court for work decades without anyone 283 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:35,440 Speaker 1: questioning whether or not they were valid. In two thousand nine, 284 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 1: the National Academies of Science issued kind of a landmark 285 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 1: report looking at forensic science, and they found that everything 286 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 1: except for nuclear DNA testing lacked scientific validity. Essentially, it 287 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:53,960 Speaker 1: undermined every forensic science except for straightforward nuclear DNA testing, 288 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 1: so that even doesn't include things like DNA mixture analysis, 289 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:02,399 Speaker 1: which has some limits as well. I asked Amelia which 290 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:05,960 Speaker 1: forensic sciences are the most unreliable and just why some 291 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:09,640 Speaker 1: of these common law enforcement tools can be considered more 292 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:14,359 Speaker 1: subjective than scientific any discipline where as a human is 293 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:16,760 Speaker 1: just looking at the futures of one item and then 294 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 1: looking at the features of another item and comparing them 295 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:22,160 Speaker 1: to determine whether they match or not. Things like white 296 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:26,920 Speaker 1: mark care comparison, tire shot analysis, old school arts and analysis, 297 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:29,159 Speaker 1: and even where you are just looking at a pattern 298 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 1: and not even includes fingerprint analysis. Fingerprint analysis and ARSON 299 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 1: are the only ones since two thousand nine that have 300 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 1: gone back and tried to validy, But traditionally fingerprint analysis 301 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 1: is just a person comparing two pictures of fingerprints and 302 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:47,880 Speaker 1: determining for themselves whether or not they matched. I think 303 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 1: if you pulled the average criminal defense layer an average prosecutor, 304 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 1: they wouldn't really know how a fingerprint is examined. They 305 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 1: would assume it's like C S I and someone puts 306 00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 1: it into a fancily computer and then it spits out 307 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:01,720 Speaker 1: a match. That's actually not how it works at all. 308 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:05,359 Speaker 1: Working in a state lab is a grueling job. You 309 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 1: have an extremely high caseload, you are not paid extremely well, 310 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 1: and your access to continuing education into proper training is 311 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 1: pretty limited. Most people are expected to sort of learn 312 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 1: on the job, whereas we should be training experts in 313 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 1: a uniform and unbiased way. Most labs are in the 314 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:31,080 Speaker 1: control of the state, so even though individual analysts don't 315 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:33,640 Speaker 1: necessarily think of themselves as an arm of the prosecution, 316 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:37,400 Speaker 1: they really are part of the prosecution team. They're funding 317 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 1: typically comes through the state and the district attorney's budget. 318 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:45,960 Speaker 1: Sometimes we should have some sort of licensing body, something 319 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:48,720 Speaker 1: similar to the f d A, to test out emerging 320 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:51,440 Speaker 1: forensic sciences to be sure that they're valid before they're 321 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:56,680 Speaker 1: admitted in court. Many of these unreliable forensic sciences were 322 00:20:56,720 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 1: first admitted in very high profile cases. The first time 323 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:03,200 Speaker 1: bite marks were admitted in Florida was in the Ted 324 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 1: Bundy case. The prosecution really needs a conviction, so they 325 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 1: reach outside of the bounds of what the discipline can 326 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 1: actually say and admit an unvalid discipline, And in a 327 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 1: case like that, a judge is much less likely to 328 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:22,920 Speaker 1: not admit evidence that could convict someone because the stakes 329 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:27,400 Speaker 1: are higher. I think we need some sort of body 330 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:32,320 Speaker 1: to validate these disciplines as they emerge. Science inherently evolved. 331 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 1: If you're going to be using evidence that changes and 332 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:39,399 Speaker 1: developed to secure conviction, you have to be open to 333 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:43,000 Speaker 1: revisiting that conviction as the science or the evidence changes 334 00:21:43,040 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 1: and evolved. Because so many of these wrongful conviction cases 335 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 1: include flawed forensic science. There's a lot more to cover here, 336 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:17,720 Speaker 1: particularly as Amelia mentioned the problems with bite marks. But 337 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 1: a perfect storm of circumstances came together in William's case 338 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 1: that led to his wrongful conviction, and there's more to 339 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:30,960 Speaker 1: his story. So they take me and put me in 340 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:34,160 Speaker 1: a room with a bunch of police officers. It's not 341 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 1: like the television where they put you in a room 342 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:38,159 Speaker 1: and there's two guys come in and talk to you. 343 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 1: And this is like five, six of them. They were 344 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,159 Speaker 1: all different places, and they're all talking to me at 345 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 1: once about different things. And I kept admirably denying any 346 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:52,560 Speaker 1: involvement in I didn't know any answers. I wasn't involved. Finally, 347 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 1: they said, will you take a lot of detector tests? 348 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 1: And I said, sure, I will. So they put me 349 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 1: in a jail cell, gave me this plastic mattress with 350 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 1: no sheets, no pellos, no nothing. I go up to 351 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:07,360 Speaker 1: the lie detector, do everything he tells me to do. 352 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:12,359 Speaker 1: The chief investigator, he says, we got you your lying. 353 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:15,240 Speaker 1: I said, you got the wrong guys said, and I 354 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:16,960 Speaker 1: don't have anything to do with it. Must be something 355 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 1: wrong with your machine. The results of polygraph tests or 356 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 1: lie detectors are not admissible in court. And there's a 357 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:28,879 Speaker 1: good reason. I know from first hand personal experience that 358 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:31,879 Speaker 1: it is possible to fail a lot of detector tests 359 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:35,200 Speaker 1: on purpose. It is possible to pass a lot detector 360 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:37,720 Speaker 1: tests when you have lied, and it is possible to 361 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 1: fail a lot of detector tests when you have told 362 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 1: the truth. Polygraphs and a lot of detectors are simply unreliable, 363 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:46,879 Speaker 1: and the only people that I know who advocate for 364 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 1: their use these days are the polygraph examiners themselves, the 365 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 1: people who have an interest in the business surviving. Eventually, 366 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 1: they had gotten tired and they were ranting, and Raven 367 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:00,640 Speaker 1: and I kept putting up to say a thing, and 368 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 1: finally I said, Okay, we'll offer you five years manslaughter. 369 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:07,399 Speaker 1: Don't worry about it. You'll do the two years and 370 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:09,960 Speaker 1: you'll be on your own. You'll beat free. I said, 371 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 1: I'm not taking any deals. I didn't have anything to 372 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 1: do with it. I'm not taking no kind of deal. Finally, 373 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:17,560 Speaker 1: I said, okay, we're gonna put you in an electric chair. 374 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:20,679 Speaker 1: You're gonna be arrested for first degree murder felony murder. 375 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 1: I said, you got the wrong guy. They locked me 376 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:28,760 Speaker 1: up and sent me to the county jail. Another commonality 377 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,399 Speaker 1: that we see among people who are wrongfully in prison 378 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 1: is the situation where the government comes along and they 379 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:39,439 Speaker 1: offer an incredible deal if someone just pleads guilty. I 380 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 1: was arrested on August and I was convicted by November. 381 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 1: I saw my lawyer twice. He asked me to write 382 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:52,960 Speaker 1: down what I remember about the night. The next time 383 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 1: I saw him was to get a haircut. When William 384 00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 1: told me he only saw his lawyer twice before his trial, 385 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 1: I was horrified. That's just not enough time to get 386 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:08,159 Speaker 1: the job done right now. I get the defense council, 387 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:12,919 Speaker 1: particularly public defenders. They're often stretched thin, but it's like 388 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:15,840 Speaker 1: going to a good barber with bad scissors. They may 389 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:18,119 Speaker 1: have the best of intentions, but if they don't have 390 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:20,879 Speaker 1: the tools or the time to get the job done, 391 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 1: you're going to get a bad result. My experience in 392 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 1: the trial was very aggravating for me, not factual in 393 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 1: any way. Most of the information came from people that 394 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 1: I had given the police, people I might have been 395 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,760 Speaker 1: with on the night of the murder took place. Their 396 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 1: statements initially were that I wasn't involved, but progressively their 397 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 1: statements got worse and worse as time went on. The 398 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 1: next thing, I knew my friends that I told him 399 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:55,879 Speaker 1: I was either at their place or somewhere, have me 400 00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:58,840 Speaker 1: with blood on me in a shirt that was found 401 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 1: in the truck. And also I was saying that I 402 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:07,240 Speaker 1: did something terrible. One of the most shocking things William 403 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 1: told us was that the state's main witness was a 404 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:12,239 Speaker 1: woman William had been on a handful of dates with. 405 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 1: She testified that William was at the scene of the crime, 406 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:19,880 Speaker 1: covered in blood, vocally admitting to the murder. It came 407 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:22,280 Speaker 1: out only after his trial was over that this woman 408 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:25,840 Speaker 1: was having a sexual affair with the chief investigator on 409 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:29,280 Speaker 1: William's case. But for his friends to also turn on 410 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:31,919 Speaker 1: him means that they were probably some other kinds of 411 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:36,120 Speaker 1: deals being made behind the scenes. He was promising our 412 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:40,399 Speaker 1: jobs and certain things, and they got the guys that 413 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,159 Speaker 1: were involved that we're selling weed or doing this or 414 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 1: that there that they would look the other way or 415 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 1: they wouldn't bother him with this if they just saw 416 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:49,959 Speaker 1: me in the shirt or just put me at a 417 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:55,480 Speaker 1: certain place. It only lasted four days, I think, convicted 418 00:26:55,520 --> 00:27:01,000 Speaker 1: me within forty five minutes. My father chester five. My 419 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 1: sister testified. When I took the stand, I felt like, 420 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:07,920 Speaker 1: now I was going to get the truth out. The 421 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:10,840 Speaker 1: factually is that I actually don't remember the night as 422 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:12,480 Speaker 1: far as it goes, you know, to put it down 423 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:14,680 Speaker 1: to pin points, that I was right here at this point, 424 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 1: at this certain time. That didn't help the situation. But 425 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 1: at the same time, I didn't make me a murderer either. 426 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:21,840 Speaker 1: I mean, I was being as truthful as I could. 427 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:23,400 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess if I was a murderer, i'd 428 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:27,120 Speaker 1: have an out by at least close to something. One 429 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:31,520 Speaker 1: question I'll always remember prosecutor asking me, She says, Mr Dillon, 430 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:33,200 Speaker 1: do you mean to tell me that all the people 431 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 1: here are lying and that you're the only one telling 432 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:39,119 Speaker 1: the truth. And I said, yes, ma'am, not just the 433 00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:42,920 Speaker 1: way it seems to me. And it took twenty seven years, 434 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:47,359 Speaker 1: but I proved it. I was sentenced life with the 435 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,760 Speaker 1: mandatory quarter I had to serve at least twenty five 436 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:55,639 Speaker 1: years before I was eligible for parole. I had served 437 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:59,199 Speaker 1: every single day of maximum security, and I went up 438 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:01,960 Speaker 1: for parole, I to my twenty six year and he 439 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:04,080 Speaker 1: gave me a date. It was like thirty years off. 440 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:06,920 Speaker 1: So I was never gonna see any freedom. They weren't 441 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:11,720 Speaker 1: going to release me. William was exonerated in two thousand 442 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,040 Speaker 1: and eight with the help of the Innocence Project of 443 00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 1: Florida and DNA testing from the shirt found in the 444 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:20,879 Speaker 1: witnesses truck. He has been cleared of all charges after 445 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:26,000 Speaker 1: spending twenty seven years of his life locked away in 446 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:29,600 Speaker 1: a prison. There's so much to talk about in the 447 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 1: area of forensic science, particularly junk science, so we're going 448 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:41,240 Speaker 1: to spend next week's episode covering more stories. Next time 449 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 1: on sworn. Our system in California here is probably one 450 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 1: of the biggest prison systems in the world. We have 451 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,760 Speaker 1: more people in prison here than most countries. I kind 452 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 1: of described it like being the bottom of a well. 453 00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:00,160 Speaker 1: You're looking up at this you know you're innocent only 454 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,400 Speaker 1: with their sayings a lie, but you can't get any representation. 455 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 1: NET would stand up and present this. Let a description 456 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:10,760 Speaker 1: be jumping out of airplane without a parachute. You know 457 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:14,200 Speaker 1: you're gonna die, but you just keep lapping your ears anyway. 458 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:20,320 Speaker 1: Sworn is a production of Tenderfoot TV and I Heart Radio. 459 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 1: Our lead producer is Christina Dana. Executive producers are Payne 460 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:29,800 Speaker 1: Lindsay and Donald Albright for Tenderfoot TV, Matt Frederick and 461 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:34,120 Speaker 1: Alex Williams for I Heart Radio, and myself Philip Holloway. 462 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:40,120 Speaker 1: Additional production by Trevor Young, Mason Lindsay, Mike Rooney, Jamie Albright, 463 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 1: and Halle Beadall original music and sound designed by Makeup 464 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 1: and Vanity Set. Our theme song is Blood in the 465 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:51,840 Speaker 1: Water by Layup. Show art and design is by Trevor Eisler, 466 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:56,760 Speaker 1: editing by Christina Dana, Mixing and mastering by Mike Rooney 467 00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:00,120 Speaker 1: and Cooper Skinner. Special thanks to the team at I 468 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:04,280 Speaker 1: Heart Radio from u t a or In Rosenbound and 469 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 1: Grace Royer, Ryan Nord and Matthew Papa from the Nord 470 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 1: Group back Media and Marketing, and Station sixteen. I'd also 471 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 1: like to extend a very personal and special thanks to 472 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,040 Speaker 1: all of our contributors and guests who have helped to 473 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:23,720 Speaker 1: make all of these episodes possible. You can find Sworn 474 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 1: on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at sworn podcast and follow 475 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:33,120 Speaker 1: me your host, Philip Holloway on Twitter at phil Holloway 476 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 1: e s Q. Our website is sworn podcast dot com 477 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:41,040 Speaker 1: and you can check out other Tenderfoot TV podcasts at 478 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:46,400 Speaker 1: www dot tenderfoot dot tv. If you have questions or comments, 479 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:50,760 Speaker 1: you can email us at Sworn at tenderfoot dot tv 480 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:55,280 Speaker 1: or leave us a voicemail at four zero four for 481 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 1: one zero zero four four one as always and I 482 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:05,040 Speaker 1: for listening, Tell us what the Axono E Band is. 483 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:08,480 Speaker 1: The Axonorey Band is a group of guys that have 484 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:13,000 Speaker 1: all been wrongfully convicted for numbers of years, And myself, 485 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:19,760 Speaker 1: Raymond Taler, Antoine Day, Eddie Lowry and uh Ted Bradford 486 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:25,040 Speaker 1: and all of those people were wrongfully convicted, every one 487 00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:26,480 Speaker 1: of them. Wow.