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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group, or if you've had

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Speaker 1: an experience with manipulation or abuse of power, you'd like to.

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Speaker 2: Share, sheet us an email at trust Me pod at

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Speaker 2: gmail dot com.

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Speaker 3: Trust Me trust Me.

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Speaker 4: I'm like a swat person. I've never lived. To you.

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Speaker 3: If you think.

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Speaker 1: That one person has all the answers, don't welcome to

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Speaker 1: trust Me. The podcast about cults, extreme believe in the

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Speaker 1: abusive Power from two Tramis who've actually experienced it. I'm

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Speaker 1: Lola blanc I. No one knows what a tromy is, so.

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Speaker 2: It's a word I made up and that's cute. I'm

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Speaker 2: Megan Elizabeth, the original Trami.

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Speaker 1: Today, our guest is professor at Columbia George Bonano. Before

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Speaker 1: we talk about what we're going to talk about, let's

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Speaker 1: talk about this month. Because it is May, it is

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Speaker 1: Mental Health Awareness month, and for this month, we decided

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Speaker 1: that we're going to do a series called Rethinking Trauma.

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Speaker 1: So each week of this month, we're going to interview

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Speaker 1: a different person about this thing we call trauma. We

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Speaker 1: wanted to do this series because, like many people with

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Speaker 1: cultic experiences in their background, we have both dealt with

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Speaker 1: our fair share of mental health issues, which you've heard

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Speaker 1: plenty about if you listen to the podcast. We've both

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Speaker 1: gone to a lot of therapy and have often found

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Speaker 1: ourselves lost in the endless haze. Sometimes it seems like

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Speaker 1: of just like talking about our past, diving into the

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Speaker 1: distressing events we've experienced, and expecting that to just inherently

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Speaker 1: make us better without pausing to consider whether we're thinking

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Speaker 1: about it the right way.

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Speaker 2: We will be asking questions like what makes one person

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Speaker 2: traumatized in another person?

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Speaker 4: Not?

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Speaker 2: Is traumatized even the right word? What's actually happening in

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Speaker 2: our bodies? If we are really struggling with something in

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Speaker 2: our past, what can we do about it? How can

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Speaker 2: we integrate our experiences into our lives and learn to

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Speaker 2: grow and thrive anyway? In essence, how do we empower

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Speaker 2: ourselves and not let the memories of distressing events or

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Speaker 2: even full on PTSD run our lives?

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Speaker 1: Bethinking Trauma Baby, Well, we thought we would kick off

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Speaker 1: the series with a discussion of resilience, which is a buzzword.

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Speaker 1: It's talked about a lot, but we will hear a

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Speaker 1: very scientific perspective on it today from our guest George Bonano.

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Speaker 1: So sometimes the way that I think about trauma can

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Speaker 1: feel disempowering because it comes with the assumption that I

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Speaker 1: can't handle it, or it will be too much for me,

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Speaker 1: because any distressing event is going to leave me traumatized.

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Speaker 1: And of course sometimes it is, and sometimes it does.

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Speaker 1: But our guest today is, as I said, a professor

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Speaker 1: at Columbia who got his PhD from Yale, and he

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Speaker 1: has done extensive research on resilience after trauma or grief.

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Speaker 3: It's so interesting.

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Speaker 2: He's going to talk to us about how experiencing something

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Speaker 2: difficult or even horrific, which he calls a potentially traumatic event,

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Speaker 2: does not automatically doom us to a wife of flashbacks.

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Speaker 2: We'll discuss this term coping ugly, why trigger warnings aren't

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Speaker 2: necessarily as helpful as we think they are, and how

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Speaker 2: using flexibility can make you better at handling whatever comes

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Speaker 2: your way.

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Speaker 1: And to be clear, George's research focuses specifically on potentially

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Speaker 1: traumatic events in adults. So if you had a chronically

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Speaker 1: abusive childhood, as many cults Drivors did, this research may

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Speaker 1: not apply to those experiences, may not apply to you,

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Speaker 1: but it's really interesting nonetheless, and stay tuned because even

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Speaker 1: if this week isn't the right week for you, next

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Speaker 1: week we're going to be discussing all things trauma recovery

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Speaker 1: with an expert on the subject, and so much more

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Speaker 1: over the next three weeks. Okay, so before we dive in,

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Speaker 1: let's just briefly get into our cultiest things of this week, Megan.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So instead of doing the cultiest thing of the

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Speaker 2: week this week, we were thinking maybe we would just

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Speaker 2: talk about an excerpt from Georgie's book where basically he

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Speaker 2: opens his book talking about a coma patient. And I

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Speaker 2: didn't know that this happens, but when you're in a coma,

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Speaker 2: some people are in kind of a nightmare that never ends.

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Speaker 3: Were you aware of this, Lola.

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Speaker 1: I was not, and reading about it, I was shook.

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Speaker 2: A yeah, yeah, because your brain isn't going in I mean,

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Speaker 2: I'm not a scientist, but it's like your brain isn't

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Speaker 2: going into rim sleep, so you're never even getting out

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Speaker 2: of the nightmare.

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Speaker 3: So it's so crazy.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So normally, I guess like our sleep cycle is cyclical,

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Speaker 1: and you know, will kind of wake up throughout the

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Speaker 1: night even if it's not. I don't exactly know how sleepworks,

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Speaker 1: but something like that.

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Speaker 3: Again, we're not silenst but.

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Speaker 1: When you're in a coma, you're not. You don't have

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Speaker 1: that cycle. It's just an ongoing thing. So where normally

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Speaker 1: you go in and out of different dreams and a

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Speaker 1: dream ends and a whole one starts, right, you can

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Speaker 1: just stay in this same dream and it can be

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Speaker 1: a nightmare for literally months, days, weeks, months.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it made me want to give like a little

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Speaker 2: I don't know card to my family. That's like, if

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Speaker 2: I'm in a coma, I don't know, don't like, I

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Speaker 2: don't want to be in one. I'm scared they don't

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Speaker 2: know me.

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Speaker 1: Guy, I want to come back. So well, he was

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Speaker 1: talking about this guy. I guess we have it here.

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Speaker 1: He was talking about a man named Jed, who he

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Speaker 1: was one of his YEP, one of the people he

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Speaker 1: studied in his work. So this man Jed got hit

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Speaker 1: by a bus and he ended up being in this

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Speaker 1: never ending nightmare for six fucking weeks.

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Speaker 2: He said that when he got home, the the memories

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Speaker 2: of the nightmare were worse than the pain. And I

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Speaker 2: believe he got both legs amputated, so the memories of

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Speaker 2: these nightmares was worse than his physical injury.

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Speaker 1: It totally makes sense to me, of course. I mean, yeah,

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Speaker 1: because your imagination, oh my god, the things it can do.

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Speaker 1: I feel like I the most traumatized I've ever felt,

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Speaker 1: was just based on stuff that my own brain was

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Speaker 1: doing and how that was making me feel, and not

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Speaker 1: like actual you know, physical trauma or anything.

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Speaker 2: Well exactly, I mean, he said, every time he would

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Speaker 2: remember it, he would feel this visceral like punch in

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Speaker 2: the gut, like just uh, it's it's so painful and awful.

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Speaker 1: But the addendum to that story is that within a

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Speaker 1: couple of weeks, he had not only he was not

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Speaker 1: only physically recovering and everything, but he was recovering from

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Speaker 1: those flashbacks. He wasn't having those flashbacks anymore.

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Speaker 2: Well, he said, he couldn't even connect with the feeling

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Speaker 2: of them being that terrifying. Ever again, they basically processed themselves.

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Speaker 2: He wasn't doing anything to try to make it happen.

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Speaker 2: So George kind of opens his book with this extreme example,

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Speaker 2: because I know we were talking about how a lot

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Speaker 2: of this stuff we're saying today can sound like writing

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Speaker 2: trauma off or being like it's gonna be fine, and

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Speaker 2: we just wanted to show that the most extreme case

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Speaker 2: something like this can happen with that and maybe somebody

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Speaker 2: gets traumatized from something quote unquote small and they're way

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Speaker 2: more long term traumatized. So it's an individual case.

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Speaker 1: It is is one of the major takeaways that we'll

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Speaker 1: talk about is that like, different things work for everyone,

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Speaker 1: and not one thing is going to be the answer,

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Speaker 1: and there's not one path that's going to you know, yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's not one set path after a traumatic event, which

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Speaker 1: both means that you might be traumatized and your recovery

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Speaker 1: might require different things, but it also might mean you

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Speaker 1: might not be traumatized. So that is what we're going

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Speaker 1: to dive into. So let's get into it, shall we.

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Speaker 1: Let's do it, okay, George Banano, did I do it right?

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Speaker 1: Did I get it right?

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Speaker 4: Yes? That's good. Yes, very good. Nice to meet you.

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Speaker 3: Thank you.

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Speaker 1: Nice to me too. So you are a professor at Columbia.

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Speaker 1: You are the author of a book called The End

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Speaker 1: of Trauma. How the New Science of Resilience is changing

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Speaker 1: how we think about PTSD. We have so much to

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Speaker 1: talk to you about today. Your research has primarily centered

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Speaker 1: around resilience and also this idea of flexibility, although your

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Speaker 1: previous work was around grief as well. Yes, First of all,

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Speaker 1: typically we talk about traumatic experiences as things that we

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Speaker 1: are inevitably going to mess us up for years, They're

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Speaker 1: going to have a hold of us. It's just this

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Speaker 1: inevitable outcome that it's going to be difficult for a

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Speaker 1: really long time if we experience something challenging.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: So, but your whole thesis seems to be that, contrary

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Speaker 1: to the common cultural idea that trauma is inherent to

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Speaker 1: difficult experiences, most people are resilient. So, first of all,

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Speaker 1: can you define resilience for us?

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Speaker 4: Yes? Sure, So the way I define resilience, everything I

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Speaker 4: do practically is based on data and research. Even I'm

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Speaker 4: going to get a little data tattoo in my arm.

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Speaker 1: Oh needs that, I know. I love it.

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Speaker 4: The way I define resilience when something nasty happens, the

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Speaker 4: literal difference a stable trajectory of healthy functioning. But it's

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Speaker 4: basically being okay after something nasty happens, right, And you

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Speaker 4: can only be in the way. I think the only

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Speaker 4: logical way I can think about resilience is you are

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Speaker 4: resilient to something m hm. And so when somebody goes

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Speaker 4: through something that you know, pretty difficult, most people would

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Speaker 4: assume is potentially traumatic or horrific whatever. There you know,

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Speaker 4: they might struggle a little bit, but they're okay, that's resilience.

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Speaker 2: So you kind of say in the book, there's three

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Speaker 2: ways people process trauma. That's long term, and then it's

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Speaker 2: a process that's kind of more short lived, and then

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Speaker 2: there's resilience immediately.

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Speaker 3: And most people have resilience immediately.

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Speaker 4: Yes, most people show that pattern, Yes, the majority.

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Speaker 1: So what is the difference between and this is something

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Speaker 1: I hadn't really even considered before, what is the difference

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Speaker 1: between traumatic stress and PTSD?

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Speaker 4: Traumatic stress is a very short term reaction. The word

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Speaker 4: traumatic stress is a little funky. We probably could use

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Speaker 4: a better word. Most everybody experiences a short term, kind

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Speaker 4: of disturbing period after a potential traumatic event, you know,

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Speaker 4: and it usually lasts sometimes for a few hours, sometimes

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Speaker 4: a few days, sometimes a few weeks, rarely much longer

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Speaker 4: for most people. And that is I think quite a

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Speaker 4: natural reaction that we have two really horrific things that

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Speaker 4: kind of you know, we don't expect that we could

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Speaker 4: really be harmed and so our minds want to think

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Speaker 4: about a little bit and process it and make us

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Speaker 4: think about it. That's traumatic stress as we call it.

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Speaker 4: You could call it anything you want, you know, acute stress, whatever.

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Speaker 4: And then when people don't recover from that, a small

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Speaker 4: set of people don't. There are always some people who don't.

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Speaker 4: Those people then go on to develop PTSD. It's continued

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Speaker 4: traumatic stress for a while, and then it festers and

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Speaker 4: gets worse and becomes PTSD.

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Speaker 2: And then those are the people who are going to

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Speaker 2: seek help, and those are the people that we're getting

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Speaker 2: the data of how long it usually takes to recover

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Speaker 2: and so on and so forth.

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Speaker 3: From yes, most.

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Speaker 4: Of the idea of PTSD, at least initially when it

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Speaker 4: first became a diagnosis, came from people who could not

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Speaker 4: recover and suffered greatly. That's what the public thinks about.

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Speaker 4: That's what the public knows.

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Speaker 1: Right. So, as we start talking about trauma more culturally,

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Speaker 1: which I think is actually a really important step that

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Speaker 1: we're actually acknowledging that it's a thing, it seems like

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Speaker 1: it's sort of expanding out to become well, we all

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Speaker 1: are traumatized. We all are just living and work with

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Speaker 1: constantly state of PTSD, you know, because we've experienced things

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Speaker 1: that are hard or horrific, but that is not necessarily

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Speaker 1: always the case. So how common is it to have

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Speaker 1: this more severe version and how common is it to

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Speaker 1: have the kind where you like have to go through

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Speaker 1: a recovery process but you can heal.

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Speaker 4: When we follow people over time, we see typically three

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Speaker 4: primary trajectories, sometimes four. Sometimes we see other patterns, but

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Speaker 4: the main ones, the prototypical trajectories we see are one

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Speaker 4: chronically elevated symptoms, you know, distress, traumatic stress that continues.

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Speaker 4: That's usually less than ten percent for really bad things,

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Speaker 4: and sometimes it's higher, depends on the event, right, depends

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Speaker 4: on what people went through. Sometimes it goes as high

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Speaker 4: as thirty percent. But this is for pretty horrific things, right.

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Speaker 4: We studied nine to eleven. We interviewed people and track

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Speaker 4: people who were in the towers, escape with their lives,

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Speaker 4: watch the towers collapse, knew they were in those times

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Speaker 4: and could have been dead with those towers, knew it

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Speaker 4: was a terrorist attack, nobody knew what was happening. Horrific,

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Speaker 4: horrific day. We have a lot of the personal stories

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Speaker 4: of people who went through that. Those people about a

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Speaker 4: third developed PTSD because it was such a life changing,

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Speaker 4: horrific event it was hard to get past it. That's

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Speaker 4: fairly rare, you know. I think there's some events I

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Speaker 4: think that would probably qualify as being so out of

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Speaker 4: the ordinary they're going to get it up into around

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Speaker 4: thirty percent. I don't think it ever really goes much

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Speaker 4: further than that. The vast majority of people though, it's

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Speaker 4: under ten percent, seven eight percent, ten percent. Then we

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Speaker 4: see another pattern of people who struggle initially for longer

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Speaker 4: than a few weeks, maybe a few months, maybe six months,

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Speaker 4: and then they gradually get better over the next year

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Speaker 4: and a half or so. Those people we call that

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Speaker 4: the recovery pattern. And sometimes we see another pattern where

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Speaker 4: people are struggling with their kind of midway and they

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Speaker 4: gradually get worse. Sometimes we see that, sometimes we don't.

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Speaker 4: But then the majority the resilient pattern, where people are

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Speaker 4: basically okay, it's usually on average across all our studies

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Speaker 4: is about two thirds. So the population will show that pattern.

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Speaker 1: And I know that we're dealing with the paradox here,

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Speaker 1: and you can tell us about that, But what are

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Speaker 1: some of the factors that contribute to resilience.

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Speaker 4: Well, that's a wonderful question, and I find it hard

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Speaker 4: to talk about it without mentioning the resilience paradox, which

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Speaker 4: is so phrase created to kind of explain this. But

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Speaker 4: there's an idea in the general culture that there are

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Speaker 4: the kind of magic traits of resilient people. You see

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Speaker 4: headlines actually have collected these over the years, the three

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Speaker 4: traits of highly resilient people, the five traits of resilient people,

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Speaker 4: the seven traits. What's interesting about those magic traits is

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Speaker 4: that they're often three, five, or seven that already keyes

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Speaker 4: you to some things a little bit of mists. Those

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Speaker 4: are the magic numbers, mythological magic numbers. So what we

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Speaker 4: find the whe we actually look at what predicts who

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Speaker 4: will be resilient than who not. We find out the

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Speaker 4: fifty different things, sometimes more we found. You know, the

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Speaker 4: more we study, the more we will find. And there

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Speaker 4: isn't any one or few things that does it. There's

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Speaker 4: so many different factors.

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Speaker 1: I assume one of them is like social support, social support.

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Speaker 1: I assume all of the basic things we would imagine

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Speaker 1: are in that extensive liss.

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Speaker 4: Mostly healthy things, optimism, social support, good coping skills, positive

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Speaker 4: you know, reframing, you name it. There's a little bit

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Speaker 4: genetic data, you know, resources that you have at your disposal.

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Speaker 1: Maybe some we that's me and we know definitely exercise.

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Speaker 4: Well. I won't get into this now, but I have

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Speaker 4: a phrase I go on called coping Ugly and it

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Speaker 4: basically means whatever works works, you know.

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Speaker 3: I love that.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to ask you about that in a bit

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Speaker 1: because I am very interested in that.

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Speaker 3: But there's three of those that work together in a

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Speaker 3: part more than their whole. Correct.

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Speaker 4: What I would say is they do something that contributes

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Speaker 4: to the larger picture. And you're talking about optimism, challenge appraisal,

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Speaker 4: which is you think of events as challenges, and confidence

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Speaker 4: in your ability to cope. What those three things do

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Speaker 4: is they put our mind in the right frame to

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Speaker 4: deal with the event. They don't make us this is

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Speaker 4: a very important plight. They don't make us resilient. What

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Speaker 4: they do is they contribute to whatever it is we

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Speaker 4: do that allows us to become resilient. There is a

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Speaker 4: process we go through to become resilient after one of

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Speaker 4: these highly stressful events, of these potential traumatic events, and

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Speaker 4: that process what characterizes it uniquely, and I call that

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Speaker 4: flexibility is that, for lack of a better term, it's

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Speaker 4: every single event we're confronted with, we have to work

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Speaker 4: it out each time, what's going to get us through

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Speaker 4: this event? And all throughout nature everywhere in nature, there

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Speaker 4: is nothing from the smallest creatures sell even microscopic creatures,

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Speaker 4: to the largest animals and humans on earth that nothing

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Speaker 4: always works. It's a fundamental accim in nature. Everything is

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Speaker 4: at cost and benefits, and everything depends on the situation.

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Speaker 4: So your favorite coping mechanism, you know, social support, optimism,

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Speaker 4: you know, whatever it is, that mindfulness, whatever is that

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Speaker 4: people will do. It doesn't always work.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes we can give you a panic attack and send

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Speaker 2: you into the Yeah, I just.

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Speaker 1: Had an episode about how meditation is not always a

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Speaker 1: useful or constructive thing for everyone all the time. For sure.

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Speaker 1: So this is what you call flexibility, right, A flexibility mindset?

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Speaker 4: Well, there's two There are two pieces to it, and

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Speaker 4: I mean I can go into it at every any

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Speaker 4: level of detail that works for this interview, for your show,

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Speaker 4: But the gist of it is there are two pieces,

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Speaker 4: a mindset and a sequence. And a mindset is basically

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Speaker 4: an attitude, a conviction that I'm going to get through this.

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Speaker 4: I'll do it's necessary to get through this. And we've

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Speaker 4: looked at this in some different ways, and there's good

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Speaker 4: research on this that it's kind of the opposite would

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Speaker 4: be an attitude that says, this is really bad. I'm

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Speaker 4: totally screwed here, this is really bad, my life is ruined.

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Speaker 4: This is just the worst thing that happened. We all

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Speaker 4: tend to do that when something really bad happens initially,

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Speaker 4: but there's a pattern of behaviors that people use, a

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Speaker 4: kind of an embracing of the event that says, Okay,

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Speaker 4: they want this to happen, but it happened, and I

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Speaker 4: have to deal with it. So what do I need

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Speaker 4: to do. Let me roll up my sleeves, let me

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Speaker 4: get in there and figure out how I can do this.

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Speaker 4: And I think I can do it. I will do

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Speaker 4: it Eventually, I get through anything, I'll do it right.

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Speaker 4: And people develop and that mindset often involves optimism, confidence

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Speaker 4: and coping and challenge appraisal, as you mentioned before, as

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Speaker 4: I mentioned in response to your question, But it doesn't

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Speaker 4: have to be that, you know, whatever, However, people do

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Speaker 4: do it. I did an interview with a guy named

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Speaker 4: Joe Dessena, who has a podcast called Spartan Up, and

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Speaker 4: it's one of those like kind of you know, get

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Speaker 4: in there and do it podcasts, and he runs a

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Speaker 4: race called the Spartan Race where people wear minimal clothing,

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Speaker 4: they climb up rope walls and then they dive in

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Speaker 4: ice in ice cold pond and they have to run

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Speaker 4: up a hill covered in mud and drag some heavy

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Speaker 4: thing and then do something else, and do something else.

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Speaker 4: It's a pretty significant thing. I think it's like six

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Speaker 4: miles long. And they helped start helping each other, and

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Speaker 4: by the end of it, he told me when I

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Speaker 4: described this to him that a lot of people at

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Speaker 4: the end of it, they say, wow, I can't believe

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Speaker 4: I did that. I did that. I can do it.

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Speaker 4: I can do things that I didn't know I could do.

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Speaker 4: And I like to point out that I run. You're

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Speaker 4: on the West coast, so you may you may not

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Speaker 4: know it how cold it gets. You know, I live

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Speaker 4: on the East coast, and I run. I started doing breathing,

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Speaker 4: exercising and running outside only in shorts and shoes.

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Speaker 3: Or is this like a wem Hoff type of thing.

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Speaker 4: It is definitely like a whim hof thing. So I

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Speaker 4: run on the steps in the park near my house.

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Speaker 4: You know, it's New York. So people just say, there's

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Speaker 4: that nut again. I've gotten down to zero before, you know,

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Speaker 4: with this bare skin, and that gets cold. But I

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Speaker 4: routinely now I'll go down to freezing without even noticing

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Speaker 4: it anymore. What that does when I'm done with that,

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Speaker 4: it has many meanings to me, But what it does

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Speaker 4: is it shows me I can do things I didn't

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Speaker 4: think I could ever do, you know, And it's all

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Speaker 4: my mind has allowed me to do that. And that

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Speaker 4: gives you this sense that you know that you can

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Speaker 4: do things, you can deal with stuff. And that's really

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Speaker 4: part of what I call the flexibility mindset, the mindset

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Speaker 4: that you'll just get in there and do what needs

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Speaker 4: to be done.

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Speaker 1: The way that we think about trauma as this inevitable

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Speaker 1: thing that's going to happen and harm us and make

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Speaker 1: us traumatized or whatever. I feel like I hear this

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Speaker 1: word all the time now, and I also participate in

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Speaker 1: this pre PTSD. Yeah yeah, Ken expecting there to be

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Speaker 1: trauma and it to fuck us up. Basically, Ken expecting

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Speaker 1: that make it happen worse.

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Speaker 4: I think to some extent. I mean, there is only

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Speaker 4: a little bit of data on this. There is some

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Speaker 4: data on what it's so called trigger warnings, you know,

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Speaker 4: and trigger warnings. For example, in I teach at a university,

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Speaker 4: you know, I teach a class with graphic material. You know,

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Speaker 4: it's a trauma class, right, loss and trauma and resilience.

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Speaker 4: And I tell the class at the beginning of the year,

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Speaker 4: I will not give you any trigger warnings. You know,

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Speaker 4: if something's disturbing, you can leave. I don't care, it's

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Speaker 4: fine if you leave, you you can go out discreetly.

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Speaker 4: But I'm not going to give you a trigger warning.

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Speaker 4: And the reason is that they don't work. And there

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Speaker 4: is some research that has shown now if you give

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Speaker 4: people trigger warnings or another group not trigger warnings, the

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Speaker 4: people who and they read, you know, at a difficult

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Speaker 4: passage or something, the group that got the trigger warnings

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Speaker 4: actually gets more anxious than the group that didn't. Right,

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Speaker 4: So the expectation that it will be bad also the

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Speaker 4: expectation that you are I mentioned this earlier. The opposite

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Speaker 4: of a flexibility mindset is a kind of a threat mindset,

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Speaker 4: you know, the sense that I can't deal with this.

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Speaker 4: This is really bad. And it didn't even I didn't

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Speaker 4: do it, it happened to me, and I'm traumatized now.

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Speaker 4: That mindset is very passive, you don't engage with anything,

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Speaker 4: and you know, see yourself as moving past it. So

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Speaker 4: I think, yeah, it's it's it's problematic. I think it's

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Speaker 4: very problematic.

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Speaker 1: If trigger warnings can potentially cause more anxiety, do you

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Speaker 1: think that we should just do away with them altogether?

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Speaker 4: Well, I think a lot of trigger warnings are not

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Speaker 4: necessary and perhaps even harmful. Perhaps not all of them.

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Speaker 4: I mean, there are different flavors of trigger warning. If

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Speaker 4: I can use that phrase, you know, like sometimes you know,

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Speaker 4: you see on a show on the internet or on

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Speaker 4: a television it says this show contains images of violence.

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Speaker 4: I think that's fine, Yeah, because it's just saying this

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Speaker 4: is what you're going to be watching. It doesn't say

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Speaker 4: warning may cause you, you know, traumatic express or whatever,

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Speaker 4: you know, warning this may trigger you. I think that

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Speaker 4: language is really dangerous.

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Speaker 1: That's really interesting.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, just mentioning that you're going to see violence here.

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Speaker 4: You know. In fact, probably a lot of people, at

436
00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:16,280
Speaker 4: least at least teenage boys will say great, bring it

437
00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:20,480
Speaker 4: up right, you know, I think, you know, it's it's

438
00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:22,959
Speaker 4: fine to know that you're going to watch that this

439
00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:25,400
Speaker 4: this show has violence in it. That's not a problem,

440
00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:27,760
Speaker 4: you know. It's just a kind of a statement. It's

441
00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:29,720
Speaker 4: not a statement that you might be harmed by it.

442
00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:32,640
Speaker 4: Any kind of trigger warning that says you might actually

443
00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:35,879
Speaker 4: be unhinged by this, you might actually be traumatized by this,

444
00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:37,720
Speaker 4: or this may activate something.

445
00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:40,639
Speaker 2: I think that's get your tissues, get your xanax. This

446
00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:41,600
Speaker 2: is the trigger warning.

447
00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:45,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's super interesting. We've done trigger warnings on here,

448
00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:47,359
Speaker 1: and now I'm like, oh, yeah, maybe we should, maybe

449
00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:50,439
Speaker 1: we should phrase it differently. I think people underestimate how

450
00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:52,720
Speaker 1: much what we expect to happen impacts the way that

451
00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:53,439
Speaker 1: we feel.

452
00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:55,000
Speaker 4: Yes, absolutely, I think so.

453
00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:58,920
Speaker 1: I connect with a lot about this because I went

454
00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:02,080
Speaker 1: through everyone on the podcast that was a talk about

455
00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:05,480
Speaker 1: it all the time. I basically developed OCD and like

456
00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:09,800
Speaker 1: an anxiety disorder and really really struggled with feeling like

457
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:13,280
Speaker 1: I was in control. The turn I think happened when

458
00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:16,119
Speaker 1: I started doing them CBT therapy and I had to

459
00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:18,959
Speaker 1: learn to be like, Okay, the worst thing might happen

460
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:23,040
Speaker 1: and I will be able to handle it. Uncertainty, yes,

461
00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:25,800
Speaker 1: to know that like, okay, yeah that might happen, might

462
00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:28,000
Speaker 1: be worst case scenario, and I'm going to deal with it,

463
00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:31,600
Speaker 1: and I'm going to have tools. The worst part of it,

464
00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:33,119
Speaker 1: when it was at its worst, it was when I

465
00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:36,080
Speaker 1: felt like I have no fucking tools. This is overwhelming.

466
00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:37,840
Speaker 1: I can't deal. I can't deal.

467
00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:39,480
Speaker 2: This book I used to read all the time is

468
00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:41,920
Speaker 2: called Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway. And I

469
00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:43,960
Speaker 2: loved it so much, and I feel like this book

470
00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:46,840
Speaker 2: is just a more nuanced look on that.

471
00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:48,920
Speaker 3: I'm really excited about it. But yeah, feel the Fear

472
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:49,600
Speaker 3: and Do It Anyway.

473
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:52,359
Speaker 1: So when you talk about coping ugly, to find that

474
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:53,520
Speaker 1: for us, please.

475
00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:56,960
Speaker 4: Well, coping ugly initially called it, published it in the

476
00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:01,800
Speaker 4: academic journals, called it pragmatic coping, What's necessary. But then

477
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:04,680
Speaker 4: when I wrote a book about two thousand and nine

478
00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:08,439
Speaker 4: on coping with grief, and I then started calling it

479
00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:11,360
Speaker 4: coping ugly because basically what it is is you use

480
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,879
Speaker 4: something in the moment that will get you through that moment.

481
00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:17,720
Speaker 4: That may not be it may certainly not pretty in

482
00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,520
Speaker 4: terms of the things we think of as healthy coping,

483
00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:23,240
Speaker 4: but it may it may even be sort of now adapted,

484
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:25,240
Speaker 4: but in this moment, it's going to do the job.

485
00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:27,800
Speaker 4: And sometimes it's the thing a person wouldn't have thought

486
00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:30,239
Speaker 4: was healthy or wouldn't have dreamed of trying, but they

487
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:33,600
Speaker 4: tried in this moment, and that's what coping ugly. I

488
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:37,880
Speaker 4: always think of John Lennon's song maybe a post Beatle song,

489
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,280
Speaker 4: whatever gets you through the night, It was the title

490
00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:42,879
Speaker 4: of the song, and it is what itever gets you to.

491
00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:45,040
Speaker 4: Whatever works in this moment, you don't have to do

492
00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:48,120
Speaker 4: it every day. And it could be it could be weed,

493
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:50,640
Speaker 4: it could be drugs, it could be something even more extreme,

494
00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:53,199
Speaker 4: and you know, it could be anything like that. It

495
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:56,160
Speaker 4: could be you know, the things that people would frown upon.

496
00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:57,840
Speaker 4: That's not a healthy thing to do, but it got

497
00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:00,760
Speaker 4: the person through the moment. They're okay, right.

498
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:03,879
Speaker 1: It's like eating the tub of ice creams that trope

499
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:07,760
Speaker 1: after the breakup. It's like, not good for you technically,

500
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:09,320
Speaker 1: but it's like gotta do what you gotta do.

501
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:09,720
Speaker 4: Yeah.

502
00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:12,440
Speaker 2: And I like the opposite implication too that you write about,

503
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,960
Speaker 2: which is that things that are good aren't always good either,

504
00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:17,400
Speaker 2: so it goes both ways.

505
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:17,840
Speaker 4: Yes.

506
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,119
Speaker 1: Yeah. When I was reading some of the stuff. I

507
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:23,560
Speaker 1: was thinking about all the different ways that people cope

508
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,520
Speaker 1: ugly or whatever. And well, first of all, how counterintuitive

509
00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:30,040
Speaker 1: that is to my general historical understanding of how we

510
00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:33,199
Speaker 1: get the correct ways to deal with pain. And I'm

511
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:35,760
Speaker 1: putting that in quotation marks. The correct ways are to

512
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:39,879
Speaker 1: talk about your feelings, to dive in, you know, to

513
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:43,560
Speaker 1: really like look at your trauma or whatever. But for me,

514
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:46,480
Speaker 1: when I was like flailing around looking for any kind

515
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:49,800
Speaker 1: of way to recover, I mean, listen, I did e MDR.

516
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:52,760
Speaker 1: I don't think it wasn't helpful. I think it was helpful.

517
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:55,359
Speaker 1: But at a certain point it's like continuing to talk

518
00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:57,880
Speaker 1: about my trauma and talk about my feelings and fixate

519
00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:00,840
Speaker 1: on my feelings is actually not help me because I

520
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:04,200
Speaker 1: need to learn how to live. I need practical tools

521
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:07,200
Speaker 1: for dealing with my life in this moment, and also

522
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:10,080
Speaker 1: some of the unhealthy things that a person could do

523
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:14,199
Speaker 1: when you feel completely out of control. Doing something small

524
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,440
Speaker 1: that you have control over at least can give you

525
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,520
Speaker 1: a sense of agency in the moment, which can be helpful.

526
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:21,000
Speaker 1: Is aes agency play a role.

527
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:24,200
Speaker 4: The other piece of the flexibility thing is called I

528
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:27,520
Speaker 4: called the flexibility sequence, and what that is. That's really

529
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:30,200
Speaker 4: the nuts and bolts of getting into it and what

530
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:33,160
Speaker 4: the first part of that the sequence, there's three parts.

531
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:35,920
Speaker 4: The first part is we call context sensitivity, is paying

532
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:40,560
Speaker 4: attention to what's happening at this moment right. So often

533
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 4: when we're confronted with something that's that we experience as traumatic,

534
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:47,480
Speaker 4: something that seems, you know, really devastating and is going

535
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:52,000
Speaker 4: to change your life, that whole perception we're focusing on

536
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:55,520
Speaker 4: the threat. Again, it does make us feel like hopeless,

537
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:58,240
Speaker 4: like passive. There's a lithing we can do about it.

538
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:00,280
Speaker 4: When we focus on what's happening in the moment, it's

539
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 4: often a much smaller piece of it, and that smaller

540
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:07,199
Speaker 4: piece of it we break off and say, okay, you know,

541
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:09,919
Speaker 4: now we have to deal with this. I had a

542
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:12,879
Speaker 4: severe pain problem in my face, a neurological problem in

543
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:16,120
Speaker 4: my face that was frightening and scary, and I thought

544
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:18,040
Speaker 4: I won't be able to do my job. I can't

545
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:21,720
Speaker 4: talk for a while, I couldn't eat, and because it hurt,

546
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:25,159
Speaker 4: and so remember that time, I began to focus on

547
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:27,640
Speaker 4: how do I find a way to get nourishment into

548
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 4: my body? And I realized blenders are amazing things. And

549
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:34,360
Speaker 4: I made all kinds you could smooth, you know, if

550
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:39,120
Speaker 4: you could blend shoes, you could blend. And I made

551
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:40,960
Speaker 4: smoothies with all kinds of things, and I got a

552
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,639
Speaker 4: straw and I could bypass the pain that way, and

553
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:46,359
Speaker 4: that felt. That gave me a sense of master. Okay,

554
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,040
Speaker 4: I can this first piece. I can do this. I'm

555
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 4: not focusing on the whole big problem. I'm focused on

556
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:54,440
Speaker 4: his little piece. And I got through that. Now what's next? Right?

557
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 4: And I think that kind of of focus is what

558
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:01,639
Speaker 4: actually a lot of us do already. People are just

559
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 4: not typically aware of it. As part of why I

560
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:04,200
Speaker 4: wrote the book.

561
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:08,160
Speaker 2: Something that I'm experiencing is Lela and I do this podcast.

562
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 2: We were raised in very constrictive, cult like environments. So

563
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:14,400
Speaker 2: I was raised essentially in a cult, told every day

564
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:15,880
Speaker 2: you're gonna go to hell. You're gonna go to hell.

565
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 2: Got trauma?

566
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:17,440
Speaker 3: Right.

567
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:21,479
Speaker 2: The more I heel that through doing this podcast, the

568
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 2: more I am connected to my natural resiliency. So it's

569
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:29,199
Speaker 2: like I'm becoming a person who has those things. But

570
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:32,120
Speaker 2: it's after I figure out this thing. Does that make

571
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 2: any sense?

572
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:34,360
Speaker 4: Yes? I think so, absolutely.

573
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, It's really interesting it's an unusual.

574
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,000
Speaker 4: An understatement to say it's an unusual way to grow up.

575
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, so I.

576
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 4: Think it does if your mind is not allowed to

577
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:49,359
Speaker 4: develop and be free. And I don't know anything about

578
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:52,440
Speaker 4: the culting room, but if a mind is not allowed

579
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:54,720
Speaker 4: to develop and free and get curious about the world,

580
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:58,200
Speaker 4: then you can't develop like sort of what I would

581
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:00,040
Speaker 4: for lack of that A word called healthy ways to

582
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:02,639
Speaker 4: embrace the things that happen to you, right, And you know,

583
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 4: there is a lot of neurological evidence. Now the human

584
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:11,480
Speaker 4: beings are a trivial, which means that we're born helpless,

585
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:14,880
Speaker 4: whereas a lot of animals are precocial, which means they're

586
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:18,160
Speaker 4: born sort of ready to go. They're kind of hardwired,

587
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 4: you know, they walk away after birth, a lot of

588
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:24,879
Speaker 4: animals do. But this is an evolutionary strategy atritial, which

589
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,720
Speaker 4: means that we're born helpless and it takes a long

590
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,320
Speaker 4: time for us to develop, and humans don't fully develop

591
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 4: our brains. I'm fully developed till over twenty five. And

592
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 4: what that means is we have a tremendous capacity for flexibility.

593
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 4: That's the best way to translate. Our brains can adapt

594
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 4: to what we're confronted with, and if we adapt in

595
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 4: a way that's not healthy because we're getting through this event,

596
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 4: like you know, twenty years or twelve years in a

597
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 4: really caustic environment or something. Then you have to adapt

598
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 4: to that, but it makes you less flexible for other scenarios.

599
00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,040
Speaker 4: The more we're allowed to just embrace the world, the

600
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 4: more the more readily flexibility comes to us. Right.

601
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 1: So, learning to cope through a traumatic childhood is is

602
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:10,239
Speaker 1: a form of resilience and flexibility because you're dealing with

603
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 1: those current circumstances and then you kind of have to

604
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 1: reconfigure once you're out of that.

605
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 4: I mean, it's it's the adaptability of the human brain

606
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 4: to do that. But then the key thing is to

607
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 4: it doesn't work so well in another context, and the

608
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:26,239
Speaker 4: key thing is then to adapt to another context, right,

609
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 4: And that can be hard depending on If somebody is

610
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:30,840
Speaker 4: in a costic environ for a long time, then they

611
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:33,840
Speaker 4: have to work to kind of in a sense readapt

612
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 4: to the to the world.

613
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 1: Right, if we are not in the resilient group and

614
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 1: we're in the long term PTSD group, what do we do.

615
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 4: Well? I think it's when we when when when you

616
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 4: get into the you know, into in the more of

617
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 4: a struggle. There are treatments that have been shown to work. Yeah,

618
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,760
Speaker 4: you know there are there are you know, approaches that

619
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 4: have been shown to work depending on and the problem.

620
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,240
Speaker 4: And there's been a lot of research on that. And

621
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 4: I think even though the kind of flexibility that I'm

622
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 4: talking about in my book that we've discovered to research

623
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 4: is actually applicable as well. I mean people can learn that,

624
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 4: right that I think is very learnable. Right.

625
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:18,960
Speaker 1: That is that is so huge. It's kind of a

626
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:23,719
Speaker 1: terminology difference from what we're used to hearing. Resilience is

627
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 1: more inherent and more unpredictable because there are so many

628
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 1: factors involved. But flexibility is something that you can build

629
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:31,520
Speaker 1: and develop and cultivate.

630
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 4: Right. Flexibility is the process that leads us to resilience.

631
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 4: And we can't become resilient unless we actually do it

632
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:42,200
Speaker 4: each time. If you can't make a resilient person, because

633
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 4: the next time something happens, they still have to be resilient.

634
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 3: To that, right, It's yeah, it's always different, right, And you.

635
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:51,400
Speaker 4: Can enhance flexibility though, get people flexibilities like the tools

636
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 4: the tools to deal with situations to come to lead

637
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 4: us to a resilient outcome. And the more we have

638
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 4: those tools in our toolbox, you know. I like to

639
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 4: think of like the metaphor of a plumber. A plumber

640
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 4: comes into you know, your sink as clouded, your bathtub

641
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 4: isn't working, or there's pipes are leaking in the walls.

642
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 4: The plumber, you know, the plumber isn't called and proof

643
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 4: it's it's fixed. Because the plumber fixes things. The plumber

644
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 4: has to fix it. And the plumber might might look

645
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,240
Speaker 4: at the problem and think, okay, what do I do here?

646
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 4: Let me look at the tools I have in my toolbox,

647
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 4: and that plumber then will try to fix it with

648
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 4: what he or she has. If they if that person

649
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:34,960
Speaker 4: doesn't have the tools, they might, you know, go out

650
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 4: and get a tool, or they might confer with another plumber.

651
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 4: If it's a tough one, they might try something they

652
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 4: never try before, which is coping ugly. But they don't

653
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,640
Speaker 4: just the problem isn't fixed just by calling the plumber.

654
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 4: The plumber has to do it every time. And I

655
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 4: think that's how that's how resilience works. Right.

656
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 1: I have a friend right now who's in a dark

657
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 1: period in her life. I hope she doesn't mind me

658
00:31:56,560 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 1: mentioning her I'm right here a little. She is struggling

659
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 1: because she's basically like, I don't think I can handle this.

660
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 1: I don't think that I can handle these feelings, this

661
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 1: moment that I'm going through. Not literally giving that person advice,

662
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 1: but like, if what we need is to cultivate some

663
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 1: kind of sense of agency or like which has been

664
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 1: a big thing for me, or optimism or any of

665
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:26,800
Speaker 1: those factors involved in a resilience mindset, Like if you

666
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 1: don't have the mindset.

667
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 4: Well, I think you're right in bringing that up. So

668
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:34,840
Speaker 4: I think the mindset and the sort of actual tools

669
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 4: are two different things. And I think we can get

670
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 4: by without the mindset just by trying things and maybe

671
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 4: encouragement or help from other people. But the more that

672
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:46,960
Speaker 4: we develop that on her ownd, the more we can

673
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 4: take on problems. Again, if I use the plumber analogy,

674
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 4: plumber has to believe that he or she can fix

675
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:55,880
Speaker 4: the problem. If they don't, they're going to screw it

676
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:57,720
Speaker 4: up right there, or they're going to you know, they're

677
00:32:57,760 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 4: not going to be able to think clearly.

678
00:32:59,560 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 3: Right.

679
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 4: Plumbers learn with time. I don't know how many dealings

680
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 4: you've had with plumbers.

681
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 1: Did that matter?

682
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:08,120
Speaker 4: I live in an old building and we have the

683
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:10,959
Speaker 4: plumber in all the time. But you know that the

684
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:13,960
Speaker 4: plumbers need to be able, or whoever's fixing any kind

685
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 4: of problem in the broader world needs to have a

686
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 4: sum sense that they can do it and they're good

687
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 4: at it. And I think people do develop that and

688
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 4: then they can go ahead and go through go through

689
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 4: the steps of fixing the problem. And if we don't

690
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,120
Speaker 4: have that sense of I can do this, I will

691
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 4: do it. I've done it before, and I will do it,

692
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 4: we're at a distinct handicap there, I think.

693
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 2: Do you know one of my favorite parts of the

694
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:37,800
Speaker 2: book was something you said about how when we're younger,

695
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:40,680
Speaker 2: we can think that our ability to learn or to

696
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 2: deal with stuff is a fixed, innate thing. And when

697
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 2: I was younger, I felt very helpless. So to know

698
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:52,959
Speaker 2: now while I'm trying to create this healthier version of myself,

699
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 2: that that's not an innate thing at all.

700
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 3: Could you say a little bit about that.

701
00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 4: Well, Well, what you're talking about is actually the work

702
00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 4: of Carol Dweck, who's an outstanding psychologist. She was a

703
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 4: colleague here at Columbia. I believe she's now she's at Stanford.

704
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:10,439
Speaker 4: She went to the West Coast and she initially came

705
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 4: up with what's called the growth mindset in the context

706
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:18,360
Speaker 4: of education, So children who think they can't do things

707
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:22,720
Speaker 4: will not try. Where if children believe that every learning

708
00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:25,240
Speaker 4: and you know, intelligence, everything is a matter of trying

709
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 4: and growth, they're more likely to take on problems. And

710
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 4: if it's interesting because you have children maybe who've you know,

711
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 4: grown up, done extremely well in school. But if they're

712
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:38,799
Speaker 4: told they're smart, you're brilliant, you're smart, that's actually, in

713
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 4: this framework, is a bad thing to tell kids because

714
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:44,760
Speaker 4: if they convinced that, if they're convinced that they're smart,

715
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 4: and then they fail at a test or something, then

716
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:50,440
Speaker 4: they think, well, if I'm smart, that means that you're

717
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:52,600
Speaker 4: either smart or not. And I just failed, so that

718
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:55,719
Speaker 4: means I must not be smart, and then they give up.

719
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:58,759
Speaker 4: Whereas if children are told you know, you you can

720
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 4: do it, you know, try hard, learning all those things, curiosity,

721
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:05,160
Speaker 4: learning all those things that would get you through, and

722
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:08,920
Speaker 4: then they struggle with a test, they realize I just

723
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:11,319
Speaker 4: have to, you know, figure it out. I'll figure out

724
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:13,120
Speaker 4: what I did wrong and I'll do it the next time.

725
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:15,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not fixed. You're not smart or not smart.

726
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:18,759
Speaker 4: Not fixed the growth mindset. The opposite is the fixed mindset. Yes,

727
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,400
Speaker 4: so it's really important to have this to think in

728
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 4: terms of growth mindset. Yeah.

729
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:24,960
Speaker 2: I mean if you have I have dyslexia and stuff

730
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 2: like that, So you just give yourself like almost self

731
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 2: munchausens or something like a disempowering believe that you're like

732
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 2: living under and it's just very freeing to think of

733
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 2: it this way.

734
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:36,440
Speaker 4: Yes, exactly.

735
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:39,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I also want to shout out the particular

736
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 1: kind of therapy that By the way, I just graduated.

737
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 1: Did I tell you this? Meg? And I graduated from therapy.

738
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:46,239
Speaker 3: I'm so proud of you.

739
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 1: Thank you. I'm doing so much better.

740
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,200
Speaker 3: Holy shit, you seem so much happier.

741
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:54,760
Speaker 2: I'm like you, you really went through something.

742
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:55,759
Speaker 3: I'm so proud of you.

743
00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 1: Thank you.

744
00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 2: I don't know what the fuck happened, but anyway, Uh,

745
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:00,920
Speaker 2: it's necessary helping other people.

746
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:04,920
Speaker 1: Part of the CBT process of recovery for OCD specifically

747
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:08,600
Speaker 1: is ERP, which is exposure and response prevention, and so

748
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 1: much of that is I don't feel like I can

749
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:15,960
Speaker 1: do it, but I'm going to do it anyway regardless

750
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:18,759
Speaker 1: of how I feel. And once I have done it,

751
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 1: then I will know I can do that. So it's

752
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 1: you're like building this body of evidence that you can

753
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:31,120
Speaker 1: handle things. And in the beginning of my recovery, every

754
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:34,759
Speaker 1: little thing would like send me spiraling, and then it

755
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:37,360
Speaker 1: would slowly be like, Okay, even if I feel like

756
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:39,480
Speaker 1: I'm going to lose my mind, I'm going to continue

757
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:42,080
Speaker 1: to have this conversation. And then afterward I was like,

758
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:45,759
Speaker 1: I got through that conversation. So I'm slowly building the evidence.

759
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:48,799
Speaker 1: And to me, it's just a really great way if

760
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:52,239
Speaker 1: anyone is struggling CBT, it's a really great way of

761
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:54,840
Speaker 1: building the mindset even if you don't have it, Like

762
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 1: you don't have to necessarily be able to access those

763
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:01,280
Speaker 1: feelings yet, but you can get there.

764
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 4: Yeah. Absolutely. In the reflectibility sequence, the other part, the

765
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 4: third step of that sequence we call feedback, is correcting.

766
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:11,399
Speaker 4: It's correcting what you know, asking yourself, did this work

767
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:14,200
Speaker 4: when I tried? And if not, trying something else. And

768
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:17,760
Speaker 4: there's a fundamental misunderstanding, I think because of the myths

769
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:21,239
Speaker 4: about resilience and coping and emotion regulation being the right

770
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:22,920
Speaker 4: there's the right way and the wrong way to do

771
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:26,719
Speaker 4: things that are an adaptive, you know, adaptive kind of

772
00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 4: coping and a maladaptive kind of coping. This that's a

773
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:33,280
Speaker 4: myth is that it leaves people to think that that

774
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:35,640
Speaker 4: that either they're good at it or not right as

775
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:38,839
Speaker 4: you were just describing. But then the truth is what

776
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:40,920
Speaker 4: we see in the data is nobody is good and

777
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 4: everything all the time, everybody tries to cope with something

778
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:49,840
Speaker 4: and they fail. That means we always have to ask ourselves, Okay,

779
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:52,640
Speaker 4: what out I didn't this didn't work. Let's I need

780
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:55,239
Speaker 4: to do something else. And some people may give up

781
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:57,440
Speaker 4: when when they failed COVID so I can't do this.

782
00:37:57,880 --> 00:37:59,359
Speaker 4: There's no way I can cope with this. But if

783
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:04,759
Speaker 4: you have the mindset or the frame that says, all right,

784
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:07,440
Speaker 4: you know this, I paid attention, it didn't work. Now

785
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:09,239
Speaker 4: I have to go back to my toolbox and try

786
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:11,959
Speaker 4: something else, that's what gets people through.

787
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:13,880
Speaker 2: I was just going to say, it's like the mental

788
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:16,840
Speaker 2: version of making your bed every morning, you know, like

789
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:18,880
Speaker 2: doing an action that I don't know.

790
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:21,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, I mean if like staring at your

791
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:26,879
Speaker 1: feelings all day isn't helping you try something else. So, hey,

792
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:29,440
Speaker 1: why does your Wikipedia say your work is controversial?

793
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:32,239
Speaker 4: Well, it was for a long time and it still

794
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 4: is to some extent. When I first began to do

795
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 4: this in the nineties, and I was in San Francisco

796
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:40,600
Speaker 4: at the time at UCSF, the University of called for

797
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:43,319
Speaker 4: Fenti of San Francisco, and we began to do this

798
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:45,759
Speaker 4: kind of work and we began to see this was

799
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:48,640
Speaker 4: research on bereavement. We began to see that most people

800
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:52,400
Speaker 4: were resilient during bereavement. It didn't mean they didn't suffer,

801
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:54,480
Speaker 4: it didn't mean they were sad about the loss, but

802
00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:56,960
Speaker 4: they were resilient. They began to function pretty much right

803
00:38:57,000 --> 00:38:59,440
Speaker 4: away and could get on with their lives. And we

804
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:02,760
Speaker 4: published that. We published, you know, another study and another study,

805
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:05,160
Speaker 4: and then I moved on to trauma more broadly in

806
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 4: nine to eleven, and there was a lot of oh.

807
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:10,400
Speaker 4: We then we began to do research on the military,

808
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:13,239
Speaker 4: and we showed that most soldiers come out of the military,

809
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:19,520
Speaker 4: the vast majority are basically okay psychologically. That work was

810
00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:22,799
Speaker 4: raised a lot of eyebrows. People didn't believe it. And

811
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:25,600
Speaker 4: we do a lot of computational modeling. We do machine

812
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:28,040
Speaker 4: learning and other kinds of things like that that very

813
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:30,880
Speaker 4: few people understand. So there's a sense of who is

814
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:33,800
Speaker 4: this guy and what is he how is he getting

815
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:36,200
Speaker 4: these findings, and let's see his data. They don't believe it.

816
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:39,360
Speaker 4: People literally asked me at conferences when I was younger,

817
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:43,480
Speaker 4: I'm told I looked very young when I was younger,

818
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:46,439
Speaker 4: and I'm told I look younger than I am now

819
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 4: going to tell you, hold I am. But when I

820
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:52,880
Speaker 4: was younger, I looked very young, and people would literally

821
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:56,400
Speaker 4: ask me at conferences, how did you measure you know, depression,

822
00:39:56,520 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 4: how did you measure PTSD ause if I had made

823
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:02,360
Speaker 4: a mistake. So there was a lot of a sense

824
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:06,239
Speaker 4: that this couldn't be true. And today I still have

825
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:09,160
Speaker 4: people come up to me and say, you know, mostly therapists,

826
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:12,760
Speaker 4: but not always therapists. It's say, you know, you're just wrong.

827
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:17,320
Speaker 3: Therapists are such a bitchy bunch. They really are. They're

828
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:18,239
Speaker 3: so like.

829
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:21,239
Speaker 1: Megan was one. Briefly for contexts, I.

830
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:25,800
Speaker 3: Was one, but like god, I never Yeah, they really interesting.

831
00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:28,959
Speaker 1: The air particular sample that they're dealing with is, of course,

832
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:31,120
Speaker 1: people who are in a lot of pain, so it's

833
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:33,120
Speaker 1: not necessarily going to be reflective of the whole population.

834
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:36,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, and the therapists are humans too, right, And so therapists,

835
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 4: you know, and most many you know, therapists are all

836
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:42,160
Speaker 4: generally really well trained, and they they are intelligent people.

837
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:46,239
Speaker 4: But like any human being, if we're around trauma all

838
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:48,920
Speaker 4: the time, or around PTSD or people in pain all

839
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:52,120
Speaker 4: the time, you begin to think it's more prevalent in

840
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 4: the normal population, the community population, not the normal population,

841
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:59,520
Speaker 4: the community population, everybody else than it actually is. They

842
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:03,000
Speaker 4: begin to overestimate how prevalent it is. And that's a

843
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:05,880
Speaker 4: fundamental feature of the human mind. We do things like that,

844
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:08,920
Speaker 4: We generalize, and this is gonna be shown empirically. It's

845
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:11,920
Speaker 4: been shown many times. So therapists who work with severely

846
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:15,799
Speaker 4: traumatized people begin to think that their trauma is more

847
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 4: common than it actually is.

848
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 1: Oh, that's interesting. I imagine TikTok is not helping also because.

849
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:22,960
Speaker 3: They're Oh good point.

850
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:26,280
Speaker 1: And again, I think it's really important because for so long,

851
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 1: I mean, I can't tell you how many freaking dudes

852
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:31,080
Speaker 1: I've dated who refuse to admit that they've ever experienced

853
00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:34,640
Speaker 1: any pain. So I think it's like a forward step

854
00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 1: that we're talking about the fact that there is trauma

855
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:40,279
Speaker 1: and that many of us have it and whatever. But

856
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:43,439
Speaker 1: it's now gotten to a point where it's like, I'm

857
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:46,799
Speaker 1: traumatized from this thing, he said, I'm traumatized from that

858
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:48,680
Speaker 1: one experience. You know. It's like, I'm like, I don't

859
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:51,480
Speaker 1: think we're all actually experiencing BDSD.

860
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:55,280
Speaker 4: You know, the way that came about is very interesting.

861
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:58,440
Speaker 4: So in nineteen eighty, right about this a little bit

862
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:02,480
Speaker 4: in the book, In nineteen eight the PTSD diagnosis was formalized.

863
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:05,799
Speaker 4: We didn't have a diagnosis before then. You know, historically

864
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:10,320
Speaker 4: it was really needed. You know, diagnoses are not biological entities.

865
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:14,280
Speaker 4: They're not fundamentally built into our minds. They're human created.

866
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:17,279
Speaker 4: We create them. They're not scientific really either that they

867
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:21,399
Speaker 4: are social constructs. We use diagnoses to determine who needs

868
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:24,040
Speaker 4: treatment and who's going to pay for it. More importantly,

869
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:28,760
Speaker 4: insurance companies and anyone whoever pays for treatment wants a diagnosis.

870
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:32,440
Speaker 4: So we needed a PTSD diagnosis to, particularly after the

871
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:36,880
Speaker 4: Vietnam War, to allow people to get treatment, and that

872
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:39,319
Speaker 4: was created in nineteen eighty. When it was created, there

873
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:42,280
Speaker 4: was a lot of interest in it. A lot of research,

874
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:46,160
Speaker 4: a lot of therapy developed for PTSD, and people began

875
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:50,360
Speaker 4: to write books about severe trauma, and those books trickled

876
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:52,600
Speaker 4: down into the general public. Some of them were written

877
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:55,799
Speaker 4: for the general public. They began to kind of saturate

878
00:42:57,320 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 4: the reading in psychology or in mental health, and that's

879
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:04,600
Speaker 4: continued for a long time. That that really influenced the

880
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:08,600
Speaker 4: way people think about trauma, right, and influence. And then

881
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:11,480
Speaker 4: what happened after that was, you know, we are our

882
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:15,320
Speaker 4: minds are wired to perceive threat. We're wired to detect

883
00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:18,359
Speaker 4: threat because it's it's crucial for our survival. Right when

884
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:21,160
Speaker 4: we see threat, we react to it. And since the

885
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:24,399
Speaker 4: advocate of social media, which isn't that long ago, it's

886
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:28,360
Speaker 4: now everywhere and anybody who's who's who's running a social

887
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:30,840
Speaker 4: media site the New York from the New York Times

888
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:35,439
Speaker 4: to you know, the most bizarre, unheard of website, they

889
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:38,960
Speaker 4: all know that. They're all aware of clicks, they're all

890
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:42,359
Speaker 4: aware of who's reading what. And we look at are

891
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:46,080
Speaker 4: things that grab our attention, and threat grabs our attention,

892
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:49,960
Speaker 4: Trauma grabs our attention, and so it's become ubiquitous. You know,

893
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:52,200
Speaker 4: you don't see a story you know, you don't see

894
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:55,360
Speaker 4: a story about Ukraine right now. These people are Okay,

895
00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:58,680
Speaker 4: it sucks what they're going through the wok. And the

896
00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 4: truth is there's a lot of result some of the

897
00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:03,080
Speaker 4: people of Ukraine, but you don't see that story you

898
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 4: see how horrible it is, because I mean it is

899
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:08,959
Speaker 4: quite horrible. You see that people are broken, people need help,

900
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:12,359
Speaker 4: people need therapy, and that's what you see. You don't

901
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:15,080
Speaker 4: hear about the resilience of spirit. There are a little

902
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:17,440
Speaker 4: bit of that trickles out. But you know, this is

903
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:20,480
Speaker 4: what we see all the time. And it gradually gets

904
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:23,600
Speaker 4: to the idea where people think they're traumatized about everything,

905
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 4: and they're often told people are told that they have

906
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:29,160
Speaker 4: hidden trumps. Yes, and this is a common and this

907
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:32,440
Speaker 4: is completely a myth that we don't have hidden trumps.

908
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:35,400
Speaker 4: If we've been traumatized in the past, we know it.

909
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:38,000
Speaker 2: What about my mom and her twin sister, who are

910
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:40,399
Speaker 2: just like, we don't remember what happened to us till

911
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:42,960
Speaker 2: seventh grade. We weren't traumatized, though, but we have not

912
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:46,040
Speaker 2: a single memory. They say they're not traumatized. They don't

913
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:48,560
Speaker 2: remember a teacher, they don't remember. I mean I'm not

914
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:51,000
Speaker 2: trying to make this specifically about them or anything, but

915
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:55,759
Speaker 2: what about people who just don't remember anything, like obviously

916
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:57,800
Speaker 2: something bad had to have happened to them.

917
00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:01,640
Speaker 4: Not necessarily. I mean that the truth is that people

918
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:05,520
Speaker 4: go through the research, epidemiological research and lots of research

919
00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:08,960
Speaker 4: shows that most people are exposed to what we've considered

920
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:12,319
Speaker 4: trauma during the course of their lives, and often several times. Now.

921
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:16,880
Speaker 4: I use the word potentially potential trauma potentially traumatic events

922
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:21,040
Speaker 4: for this specific reason, because the events are not themselves traumatic,

923
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:23,960
Speaker 4: and in fact, most people are resilient to all these

924
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:27,400
Speaker 4: horrible things that we go through. So people are exposed

925
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:29,719
Speaker 4: at something in the past. People experience something in the

926
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 4: past that we would consider a traumatic event what I

927
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 4: call it potential trauma, and they may not remember it

928
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:37,719
Speaker 4: because they got through it and kind of forgot about it.

929
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:40,000
Speaker 4: You know, if you remind them of it, they'll remember,

930
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 4: but they don't think about it a lot, and we

931
00:45:43,239 --> 00:45:46,600
Speaker 4: forget a lot of things. You know, our memories are fallible,

932
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:49,560
Speaker 4: you know, we have a lot of other things to remember,

933
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:53,359
Speaker 4: So people do forget the past. With the cultural guys

934
00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:56,319
Speaker 4: right now, if somebody is reminded of a thing that

935
00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:59,239
Speaker 4: would be considered traumatic, then they think they have a

936
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:03,000
Speaker 4: hidden trauma, but in fact it's usually I would it's

937
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:07,120
Speaker 4: usually an event that did not traumatize them, maybe upset

938
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:08,960
Speaker 4: them for a short while, but then they moved on

939
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 4: from it. That's why they don't remember.

940
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:13,360
Speaker 1: And I want to be clear to our audience that

941
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:16,600
Speaker 1: we're not saying that it wasn't painful, We're not saying

942
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:19,560
Speaker 1: that it wasn't difficult to get through. And you're even

943
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:23,759
Speaker 1: saying that several weeks of traumatic stress is still within

944
00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:27,439
Speaker 1: the normal. Yes, absolutely within the resilient range. How long

945
00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:30,280
Speaker 1: is that period that where it still counts as resilience?

946
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:31,600
Speaker 3: We need a day count.

947
00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:36,439
Speaker 1: I mean, like if I'm having flashbacks to a car

948
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:40,000
Speaker 1: accident or something for say two months after the event

949
00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:43,040
Speaker 1: as opposed to two weeks, is that is she still chill?

950
00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:47,319
Speaker 4: It really depends. I mean some of the factors that

951
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:49,880
Speaker 4: come into player. If whether you're able to function normally

952
00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:52,600
Speaker 4: it was normally for yourself, rather if you're able to

953
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:55,319
Speaker 4: sort of get through you do and get through your

954
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:56,920
Speaker 4: day and do the things that you need to do,

955
00:46:57,400 --> 00:47:02,359
Speaker 4: and you have a sudden memory flashback technically means it's

956
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:05,120
Speaker 4: an intrusive memory means that you're reminded of it whether

957
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:08,040
Speaker 4: you want to or not, and it's usually very unpleasant.

958
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:10,960
Speaker 4: I mean, that can happen ten years from it, right,

959
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:13,640
Speaker 4: because you know, you can remember painful things that happened

960
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:17,040
Speaker 4: ten years ago. If you feel like you don't know

961
00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:19,279
Speaker 4: where you are and you're back in that event at

962
00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:22,239
Speaker 4: the time, that's a much more serious, you know, kind

963
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:25,160
Speaker 4: of a flashback, right, that's what we're worrisome. But if

964
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:28,080
Speaker 4: you remember it, it's painful, you you know, sit up.

965
00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:30,600
Speaker 4: This happens to me all the time. I might be

966
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:34,440
Speaker 4: thinking of something in that twilight time between sleep and wakefulness,

967
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:36,400
Speaker 4: and I'll think of something horrible that happened to my

968
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:38,680
Speaker 4: son or something, and I'll just sit up in a

969
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:42,040
Speaker 4: start because it's a disturbing thing. That's simply just my

970
00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:45,960
Speaker 4: mind remembering something for whatever reason. You know, it's not

971
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:47,600
Speaker 4: and that can happen anytime, right.

972
00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:51,440
Speaker 1: It's not the same as like actual dissociation descending into

973
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 1: a flashback.

974
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:53,799
Speaker 4: Yeah. So I mean people are you know, and I've

975
00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:57,719
Speaker 4: had friends who know what I do will still go

976
00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:01,319
Speaker 4: through something that's pretty frightening for them, and then two

977
00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:04,399
Speaker 4: weeks later, they'll be having some nightmares and they'll ask

978
00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:08,120
Speaker 4: me if they have PTSD, and I usually say, well,

979
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:10,839
Speaker 4: how are you doing otherwise, you know, and if they

980
00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:13,279
Speaker 4: if they seem to be fine otherwise, say well, let's

981
00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:15,319
Speaker 4: give it some time and see what happens. You know.

982
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:18,840
Speaker 4: My guess is it's just all fine, you know, but

983
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:20,479
Speaker 4: you know, give it some time.

984
00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:22,959
Speaker 2: I'm giggling because I just imagine if I were your friend,

985
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:27,719
Speaker 2: I'd be asking you that every day charge to I

986
00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:28,480
Speaker 2: have PTSD.

987
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:32,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, I knowd.

988
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:37,480
Speaker 1: The main thing that I want to talk about here,

989
00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:40,640
Speaker 1: to be the takeaway is that like, it's not going

990
00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:43,719
Speaker 1: to ruin your life if you do and if you

991
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:45,200
Speaker 1: have it, it's not going to ruin your life, and

992
00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:47,920
Speaker 1: you might not have it, and you might just actually

993
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:50,920
Speaker 1: be Okay. We don't have to see trauma as a

994
00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:53,239
Speaker 1: thing that's going to haunt us forever that we have

995
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:56,799
Speaker 1: to dig into and like excavate for the rest of

996
00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:58,880
Speaker 1: our lives because it's going to run our lives. Like

997
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:02,120
Speaker 1: I just want to that idea basically.

998
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:06,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, Well, I mean PTSD is not fun, for sure,

999
00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:08,400
Speaker 4: and it's very painful for people, and it can last

1000
00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:12,600
Speaker 4: a long time, and it can be debilitating, but experiencing

1001
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:16,200
Speaker 4: a what we would consider a traumatic event and struggling

1002
00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:18,759
Speaker 4: for a while will not ruin your life, right, It's

1003
00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:20,759
Speaker 4: something we go through and even you know, people do

1004
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:23,880
Speaker 4: recover from really horrible things. They just do. You know,

1005
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:25,560
Speaker 4: We're beings are capable.

1006
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:27,880
Speaker 2: I mean, I liked your point about why would we

1007
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:31,439
Speaker 2: still be surviving as a species if every time something

1008
00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:34,000
Speaker 2: bad happened we completely broke down, Like we wouldn't be

1009
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:37,400
Speaker 2: so horrible. Shit happens every day and we still somehow

1010
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:38,960
Speaker 2: managed to mate and go on with it.

1011
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:41,400
Speaker 4: And as much as it seems like life can be

1012
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:44,680
Speaker 4: difficult now, it was more difficult in the past. You know,

1013
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:48,000
Speaker 4: people life was hard. People didn't live very long, and

1014
00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:50,839
Speaker 4: there were predators and there were you know, there there

1015
00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:52,920
Speaker 4: was there was a lot of difficult you know, and

1016
00:49:53,560 --> 00:49:57,120
Speaker 4: in less democratic societies, and certainly in the past, lots

1017
00:49:57,160 --> 00:49:59,000
Speaker 4: of things could be done to people with the whim

1018
00:49:59,040 --> 00:49:59,520
Speaker 4: of others.

1019
00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:03,120
Speaker 1: In that that's such a good point. If it were true,

1020
00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:08,120
Speaker 1: we would be fucking so traumatized throughout history, like people

1021
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:09,000
Speaker 1: getting beheaded.

1022
00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:10,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, we'd be completely gone.

1023
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:13,239
Speaker 1: Mayby's just constantly dying like that. It was kind of

1024
00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:14,800
Speaker 1: it was not a good time to be alive.

1025
00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:17,680
Speaker 4: For most of history, when people were beheaded in the past,

1026
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:21,360
Speaker 4: there was usually an audience, right, So if that happened today,

1027
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:24,000
Speaker 4: that we would say all those people are traumatized, and

1028
00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:27,040
Speaker 4: in fact, people voluntarily came to see the headaches.

1029
00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:28,000
Speaker 3: It was entertainment.

1030
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:31,880
Speaker 4: Yikes, Gladiators being eaten by lions or you know, mauled

1031
00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:34,520
Speaker 4: by lions. So there was a lot of that in

1032
00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:37,239
Speaker 4: the past for sure. And you know, if that, if

1033
00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:40,000
Speaker 4: it were true that all those are traumatic experiences to

1034
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:41,520
Speaker 4: human race, would not have survived.

1035
00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:43,880
Speaker 3: We're sick. We're a six species.

1036
00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:45,719
Speaker 4: Well, I don't think we're a six species. I think

1037
00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:48,920
Speaker 4: we're remarkable species. We have tremendous capacity.

1038
00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:50,239
Speaker 3: But you know what I mean, like we're kind of

1039
00:50:50,239 --> 00:50:50,919
Speaker 3: sick in the head.

1040
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:53,960
Speaker 4: I guess, well, we have a perverse side. But I

1041
00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:56,319
Speaker 4: think that's largely because we're just trying to figure it out.

1042
00:50:56,440 --> 00:50:58,640
Speaker 4: It takes us a long time. It takes us a

1043
00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:00,520
Speaker 4: long time, just like we're now trying to figure out

1044
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:03,960
Speaker 4: the Internet, how we can somehow survive without you know,

1045
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:06,319
Speaker 4: there are there's a lot of there's a lot of

1046
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:10,879
Speaker 4: political exploitation of the Internet now, and it's it's really

1047
00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:13,719
Speaker 4: been very effective, and you know people know that, and

1048
00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:15,640
Speaker 4: so they're doing it a lot. And there's a lot

1049
00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:18,959
Speaker 4: of you know, people struggling to just get a grip

1050
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:21,080
Speaker 4: on themselves with the Internet, and you know, we just

1051
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:23,320
Speaker 4: need to figure it out, you know, we will.

1052
00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:27,799
Speaker 1: I love that attitude. So in conclusion, basically, if you

1053
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:30,520
Speaker 1: are someone who's like, all right, I need to be

1054
00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:34,160
Speaker 1: more flexible because I have not been resilient in the past,

1055
00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:36,960
Speaker 1: can you just summarize it all for us again? What

1056
00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:38,200
Speaker 1: do we got to do?

1057
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:40,680
Speaker 4: Let's see what I would say. There there are pieces

1058
00:51:40,719 --> 00:51:42,880
Speaker 4: to it that we can we've researched, or pieces that

1059
00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:45,560
Speaker 4: we know about. You know, this is not just a proposal.

1060
00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:48,120
Speaker 4: This is actually the result of all the research we've

1061
00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:51,400
Speaker 4: done for three decades now that most people are resilient

1062
00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:53,960
Speaker 4: and what we've learned how what people do. And so

1063
00:51:54,120 --> 00:51:57,799
Speaker 4: if one piece is a mindset, you know, conviction that

1064
00:51:58,040 --> 00:52:00,600
Speaker 4: you will get through things, and we know that most

1065
00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:03,359
Speaker 4: people actually do get through things, and so we need

1066
00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:06,239
Speaker 4: to try to develop that conviction, allow ourselves to have

1067
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:09,200
Speaker 4: that conviction, allow ourselves be, as you said, even when

1068
00:52:09,440 --> 00:52:11,799
Speaker 4: it's painful, to go ahead and do it and hang

1069
00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:13,799
Speaker 4: in there and try it, and so often you'll come

1070
00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:15,359
Speaker 4: out on the other side and say, Okay, I can

1071
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:17,000
Speaker 4: do this. I didn't think I could do it, but

1072
00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:19,319
Speaker 4: I did it. That's the first half of this. Being

1073
00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:22,560
Speaker 4: flexible is is just kind of embracing what's happening to

1074
00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:25,879
Speaker 4: us and giving it a try, doing our best, trying

1075
00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:28,480
Speaker 4: to be optimistic, trying to think, well, I've done it before,

1076
00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:30,200
Speaker 4: I'll do it, or I will try to do this

1077
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:33,400
Speaker 4: and I'll see what happens. That's part number one. And

1078
00:52:33,440 --> 00:52:35,760
Speaker 4: the other part is what I call the flexibility sequence.

1079
00:52:36,040 --> 00:52:39,000
Speaker 4: That's where we actually get in there and we get

1080
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:40,759
Speaker 4: in there with the nuts and both of it. We

1081
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:42,600
Speaker 4: try to figure out what's happening to us, We think

1082
00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:45,600
Speaker 4: about the tools we have in our toolbox, and we

1083
00:52:45,719 --> 00:52:49,480
Speaker 4: correct as we go along. That's the flexibility sequence. Nobody

1084
00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:52,080
Speaker 4: gets it perfect every time, so everybody's got to correct

1085
00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:54,359
Speaker 4: and keep trying. But that's how it works. That's what

1086
00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:57,319
Speaker 4: humans do. And I think everybody's capable of that, and

1087
00:52:57,360 --> 00:52:59,399
Speaker 4: in fact, for the first time in my career, i'm

1088
00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:02,040
Speaker 4: developing it. Training for this. I've never done anything like

1089
00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:05,959
Speaker 4: that before because I think this is extremely learnable. It's

1090
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:09,359
Speaker 4: basically a matter of learning the pieces and reflecting on them.

1091
00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:11,360
Speaker 4: There are lots of ways we could do this in

1092
00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:14,239
Speaker 4: our daily lives, and I think it's possible to do it,

1093
00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:16,440
Speaker 4: and that's partly why I wrote the book. But I

1094
00:53:16,440 --> 00:53:19,239
Speaker 4: think it's also it is what humans do. We're just

1095
00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:20,479
Speaker 4: not aware that we do it.

1096
00:53:20,239 --> 00:53:25,880
Speaker 1: It strikes me as a very self compassionate perspective because

1097
00:53:25,880 --> 00:53:28,640
Speaker 1: it's like, Okay, maybe that wasn't the right thing, or

1098
00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:32,600
Speaker 1: I'll just try something else instead of this like perfectionism

1099
00:53:32,719 --> 00:53:36,359
Speaker 1: about the tools working and like doing it right every time.

1100
00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:39,120
Speaker 2: It's like, am I journaling right? It's like you're journaling.

1101
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:40,799
Speaker 2: It's fine, just journal.

1102
00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:43,120
Speaker 1: That didn't work. Okay, that's a cool Let's try something else.

1103
00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:45,759
Speaker 4: I think it's fair to say it's solf compassion, but

1104
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:47,640
Speaker 4: also I think there's a lot of There are a

1105
00:53:47,640 --> 00:53:49,920
Speaker 4: lot of myths out there. Then. One of the myths

1106
00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:51,680
Speaker 4: is that there are people who just have all the

1107
00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:54,320
Speaker 4: tools and they're fine, And I don't think those people exist.

1108
00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:57,759
Speaker 4: You know, there are people who better at doing some

1109
00:53:57,800 --> 00:54:00,000
Speaker 4: of these things and others, but everybody has to capacity

1110
00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:00,640
Speaker 4: that you can do.

1111
00:54:00,560 --> 00:54:01,480
Speaker 3: This right there.

1112
00:54:01,520 --> 00:54:03,040
Speaker 1: It is, Yeah, that's what we need to turn up

1113
00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:07,880
Speaker 1: us what we need to end on. Well, George, this

1114
00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:11,800
Speaker 1: has been so interesting and enlightening and you are awesome

1115
00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:13,560
Speaker 1: to talk to, so thank you so much for coming on.

1116
00:54:13,640 --> 00:54:15,959
Speaker 1: Is there anything else that you would like to say?

1117
00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:17,759
Speaker 1: And also tell us the name of your book again.

1118
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:20,200
Speaker 4: The book is the End of Trauma. How the new

1119
00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:23,560
Speaker 4: science of resilience is changing how we think about PTSD

1120
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:26,520
Speaker 4: came out last fall. It's been a pleasure to meet

1121
00:54:26,520 --> 00:54:27,960
Speaker 4: both of you. Really fun to talk to.

1122
00:54:28,120 --> 00:54:30,359
Speaker 1: Hey, thank you. We'll have a great rest of your day.

1123
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:31,920
Speaker 4: Okay, you too, Bye bye.

1124
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:35,279
Speaker 1: What an interesting conversation, Megan. I would love to know

1125
00:54:35,320 --> 00:54:38,040
Speaker 1: some of your primary takeaways after we have this discussion

1126
00:54:38,080 --> 00:54:38,399
Speaker 1: with him.

1127
00:54:38,560 --> 00:54:39,840
Speaker 3: I mean, I think the.

1128
00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:43,200
Speaker 2: Part that's really blowing my mind is that the ways

1129
00:54:43,239 --> 00:54:47,759
Speaker 2: that we facilitate resiliency are the exact opposite ways that

1130
00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:52,400
Speaker 2: cults grew us to be obedient. So it's just crazy

1131
00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:55,919
Speaker 2: how smart these cult tactics are at.

1132
00:54:55,760 --> 00:54:57,359
Speaker 3: Overwriting our own resiliency.

1133
00:54:57,440 --> 00:54:59,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, the whole thing about cults, the whole thing about

1134
00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:05,160
Speaker 1: any abusive dynamic in general, is that rigidity. You don't

1135
00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:08,040
Speaker 1: have the flexibility, you don't have the freedom to try

1136
00:55:08,080 --> 00:55:11,640
Speaker 1: new things, you don't exactly get to see what's working

1137
00:55:11,640 --> 00:55:14,440
Speaker 1: for you and what doesn't. You're specifically told what is

1138
00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:16,200
Speaker 1: supposed to work, and if it doesn't work, there's something

1139
00:55:16,239 --> 00:55:18,919
Speaker 1: wrong with you. So it makes sense to me that

1140
00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:22,400
Speaker 1: someone coming out of a cultic group would not be

1141
00:55:22,520 --> 00:55:26,719
Speaker 1: as resilient immediately as another person. You know, let's say,

1142
00:55:26,880 --> 00:55:28,319
Speaker 1: let's say they get out of a culture group and

1143
00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:31,400
Speaker 1: then they experience a trauma after that, like, they're probably

1144
00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:33,480
Speaker 1: going to be less resilient and to the traumas that

1145
00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:36,239
Speaker 1: happened to them while they were within the group. But

1146
00:55:36,320 --> 00:55:40,000
Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that we can't then build that and

1147
00:55:40,120 --> 00:55:43,400
Speaker 1: work on our flexibility as he calls it, and heal

1148
00:55:43,680 --> 00:55:44,759
Speaker 1: the trauma that we do have.

1149
00:55:44,960 --> 00:55:47,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean I think I mentioned that the

1150
00:55:47,440 --> 00:55:49,880
Speaker 2: and the interview that the more I feel like I

1151
00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:54,239
Speaker 2: heal from the trauma, the more I feel like I'm

1152
00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:57,400
Speaker 2: plugged back into some natural you know, cut your finger

1153
00:55:57,440 --> 00:55:58,480
Speaker 2: and your body heals it.

1154
00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:01,719
Speaker 3: That kind of resilience in my brain. It's very strange.

1155
00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:03,680
Speaker 3: So I can't wait to see what happens.

1156
00:56:04,040 --> 00:56:06,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes perfect sense. You know, we didn't really

1157
00:56:06,560 --> 00:56:09,200
Speaker 1: get into this, but we have been treating the field

1158
00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:12,319
Speaker 1: of psychology as though it is the same as other

1159
00:56:12,600 --> 00:56:16,200
Speaker 1: forms of medicine, like there's just oh there's something wrong,

1160
00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:19,160
Speaker 1: Well here's your antibiotic, and now it should be done.

1161
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:20,640
Speaker 1: And that is not. One of the things that he

1162
00:56:20,840 --> 00:56:22,640
Speaker 1: also pointed out in his book, which we didn't get

1163
00:56:22,640 --> 00:56:24,839
Speaker 1: to talk much about, is that that's not how our

1164
00:56:24,880 --> 00:56:28,360
Speaker 1: minds work. We're all so different. This field is still

1165
00:56:28,440 --> 00:56:31,919
Speaker 1: so so new and there's so much to learn, and

1166
00:56:32,080 --> 00:56:34,160
Speaker 1: I just really want to encourage everyone to find the

1167
00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:37,640
Speaker 1: thing that works for you and find that flexibility.

1168
00:56:37,880 --> 00:56:39,480
Speaker 3: Hell yeah, I love it.

1169
00:56:39,760 --> 00:56:42,799
Speaker 1: And yeah, next week say tune. We have another amazing guest,

1170
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:45,279
Speaker 1: and the whole rest of the month awesome guests. So

1171
00:56:45,680 --> 00:56:47,479
Speaker 1: y'all can't wait, come back?

1172
00:56:47,680 --> 00:56:50,160
Speaker 2: Oh I can't wait. Yeah, we'll see you next week.

1173
00:56:50,239 --> 00:56:51,879
Speaker 2: This week, remember to follow.

1174
00:56:51,600 --> 00:56:53,919
Speaker 3: Your gut, watch out for red flags, and.

1175
00:56:53,880 --> 00:56:56,480
Speaker 1: Never ever trust me.

1176
00:56:57,280 --> 00:57:03,360
Speaker 4: Bye, guys.