WEBVTT - Djinn of the Shrine 0:00:03.080 --> 0:00:06.040 Welcome to The Hidden Gin, a production of I Heart 0:00:06.120 --> 0:00:30.520 Radio and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Mankey. Hi, and 0:00:30.680 --> 0:00:34.160 welcome to this very special bonus series of The Hidden Gin. 0:00:34.840 --> 0:00:38.159 The interviews. In these episodes, you'll hear me talk to 0:00:38.200 --> 0:00:41.479 people from all walks of life who have had GIN experiences, 0:00:41.800 --> 0:00:44.800 are drawn to the stories of Gin, and draw lessons 0:00:44.880 --> 0:00:49.480 from these stories. You'll hear from artists, scholars, writers, journalists, 0:00:49.479 --> 0:00:53.040 and Gin exorcists, and even from me as I discuss 0:00:53.120 --> 0:00:55.800 how and why this series came about in a very 0:00:55.840 --> 0:01:00.680 personal conversation with my husband. Thanks for listening and enjoy. 0:01:05.520 --> 0:01:08.559 All right, so let's just start at the top then, um, 0:01:08.640 --> 0:01:11.320 can you can you please introduce yourself? Tell us a 0:01:11.360 --> 0:01:14.480 little bit about who you are and what you do. Sure. 0:01:14.959 --> 0:01:18.360 My name is Ali ALONEI I am an assistant professor 0:01:18.520 --> 0:01:23.480 of history at Penn State Abington working on medieval Islam 0:01:23.560 --> 0:01:27.480 in the modern global Middle East. I specialized in Muslim politics, 0:01:28.040 --> 0:01:35.640 Islamic esoterrorism, and folklore. Wow, so I discovered you. I 0:01:35.680 --> 0:01:37.360 don't know how I discovered you. I don't know if 0:01:37.360 --> 0:01:39.679 I searched for the word gin on Twitter. I don't 0:01:39.680 --> 0:01:42.080 know how I encountered your Twitter account, but it is 0:01:42.120 --> 0:01:44.000 a has been a gold mine, and that's been to 0:01:44.120 --> 0:01:48.600 treat to follow you online. Do you do you have 0:01:48.680 --> 0:01:51.800 a special affinity for the Gin? Like what's going on here? 0:01:53.400 --> 0:01:57.000 I mean, I love the Gin and I think that 0:01:57.240 --> 0:02:01.280 they're a fascinating sort of creature that doesn't often get 0:02:01.280 --> 0:02:05.000 talked about outside of sort of Muslim circles. Uh. And 0:02:05.040 --> 0:02:07.600 so while you say Jin and Muslims, I mediica. Oh yeah, 0:02:07.600 --> 0:02:10.679 and exactly what you're talking about. Most people don't who 0:02:10.680 --> 0:02:13.880 want Muslims. And so I've always had this connection, and well, 0:02:13.880 --> 0:02:15.919 why don't I share a little bit about the Gin 0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:17.919 and talk about it. I had already been doing it 0:02:17.919 --> 0:02:20.480 in my classrooms for a long time. Whenever top history 0:02:20.480 --> 0:02:23.480 of Islam, there's always several weeks kind of dedicated to 0:02:23.520 --> 0:02:29.560 like esoterrorism, cultural aspect, sharing Gin stories. Its awesome opportunity 0:02:29.600 --> 0:02:32.760 for Middle Eastern students and South Asian students and the 0:02:32.840 --> 0:02:37.640 African students to share their own experiences. And then I 0:02:37.720 --> 0:02:40.240 was like, going, what I could just open this up 0:02:40.240 --> 0:02:42.720 a little bit more and talk about it more publicly, 0:02:43.160 --> 0:02:45.239 and so I did. I started using Twitter as a 0:02:45.280 --> 0:02:51.480 way of sharing aspects of Islamic esoterrorism, astrology, folklore, but 0:02:51.520 --> 0:02:54.160 then also the gym as well. Can I see what 0:02:54.200 --> 0:02:58.360 you cut your own? Like? Ethnic and cultural background is sure? Yeah, 0:02:58.440 --> 0:03:01.359 I come from an ad again background, going and raised 0:03:01.360 --> 0:03:05.240 in the United States by families all again. So let 0:03:05.320 --> 0:03:07.680 me start. I'm gonna ask you a real personal question now, 0:03:08.080 --> 0:03:10.920 have you before we get into all the questions about Jin, 0:03:11.120 --> 0:03:13.200 have you ever had a personal encounter with Jin in 0:03:13.240 --> 0:03:16.480 your own life? Well, my family has had a pretty 0:03:16.680 --> 0:03:20.640 interesting experiences with Jin there. It's not uncommon to talk 0:03:20.680 --> 0:03:25.320 about various sort of encounters Um, some very kind of 0:03:25.320 --> 0:03:29.080 famous ones, usually around the funeral. My great grandfather was 0:03:29.120 --> 0:03:33.040 known to speak to gin Um and I. I've had 0:03:33.120 --> 0:03:36.040 me not kind of interesting, weird and eerie encounters out there, 0:03:36.040 --> 0:03:39.000 whether they're Jin or not. You know, it's people a 0:03:39.040 --> 0:03:41.440 good side. But one kind of interesting moment was I 0:03:41.440 --> 0:03:43.880 came home for school. I was reather to be on 0:03:44.000 --> 0:03:47.800 I think maybe early high school, late middle school, and 0:03:47.880 --> 0:03:50.560 I walked in and there was just this cat in 0:03:50.680 --> 0:03:53.920 my house. The doors of the lock, the words flocks. 0:03:54.000 --> 0:03:57.480 Had no idea how this cat got in and completely 0:03:57.480 --> 0:04:00.480 had made itself at home, just very well acts. When 0:04:00.480 --> 0:04:02.640 I walked in it doesn't startled, just kind of looked 0:04:02.680 --> 0:04:04.920 up from where it was napping, as if you're interrupting 0:04:05.000 --> 0:04:09.640 my nap um in a very sort of regal manner. 0:04:09.720 --> 0:04:12.720 And as is customary for anyone who's grown up in 0:04:12.760 --> 0:04:15.560 a Muslim background, you kind of know that maybe that 0:04:15.600 --> 0:04:18.400 could be a gym, and so this sort of protocol 0:04:18.440 --> 0:04:21.200 around it, you don't you don't try not to send it. 0:04:21.240 --> 0:04:23.560 You're trying not to be rude. So I simply said, 0:04:24.200 --> 0:04:27.479 thanks for visiting, but it's time for you to go, uh, 0:04:27.520 --> 0:04:29.920 and kind of opened the door, and it got up 0:04:29.960 --> 0:04:34.440 and walked right out, every kind of interesting in eerie 0:04:34.560 --> 0:04:37.080 encounter and and kind of like maybe it was just 0:04:37.120 --> 0:04:40.400 a really funky cat or maybe it was something else, 0:04:40.400 --> 0:04:44.279 who knows. Wow, So you, at a pretty young age 0:04:44.279 --> 0:04:48.240 like knew the protocol to like ask to leave your home. 0:04:49.200 --> 0:04:52.040 Oh oh totally why, I mean, I grew up my 0:04:52.040 --> 0:04:55.479 my fascination with folklore was really fostered by by my 0:04:55.760 --> 0:04:59.160 my family. My grandmother would tell me stories growing up. 0:04:59.160 --> 0:05:01.400 In those stories always in evolved kind of some elements 0:05:01.240 --> 0:05:04.880 of instructions and elements of teaching, so like you know, 0:05:05.160 --> 0:05:07.320 you know, you knew how to you know what prayers 0:05:07.360 --> 0:05:09.120 to say. I had to course see you know, you 0:05:09.200 --> 0:05:13.479 knew if you were scared at night what you would do. Uh, 0:05:13.520 --> 0:05:17.640 if you encountered the sort of new Minnesota the gym, 0:05:17.880 --> 0:05:20.480 you kind of had some ideas because you have been 0:05:20.560 --> 0:05:23.880 familiar with the stories you we were growing up, UM 0:05:23.920 --> 0:05:26.360 and by about middle school of high school, you kind 0:05:26.360 --> 0:05:28.640 of figured out if I'd need a gym, just don't 0:05:28.720 --> 0:05:32.800 piss it off. Well, did you ever have any any 0:05:32.800 --> 0:05:34.720 of the weird encounters you have? Have any of them 0:05:34.720 --> 0:05:39.840 ever been frightening? Uh? There was one slightly fright I 0:05:39.839 --> 0:05:41.599 wouldn't say it was like frightening the sense that I 0:05:41.640 --> 0:05:43.240 was scared for my life. But it was one of 0:05:43.279 --> 0:05:46.280 those like what what is even happening here? It was 0:05:46.279 --> 0:05:49.680 actually an Afghanistan? And so I visited Afghanistan once I 0:05:49.800 --> 0:05:54.760 graduated high school. UM, and in one of the ruins 0:05:54.839 --> 0:05:58.880 there was a blind kid. This was a sort of 0:05:59.200 --> 0:06:03.719 historical flight that had slightly been turned into a shrine. 0:06:03.800 --> 0:06:07.479 People would go there and they would lock locks, like 0:06:07.640 --> 0:06:10.440 little key locks that they would say prayers and they 0:06:10.480 --> 0:06:12.520 would lock it. And that's a way to lock your 0:06:12.520 --> 0:06:15.600 prayer or light candles. Kind of a folk practice that 0:06:15.720 --> 0:06:18.680 isn't considered part of Orthodox Islam, but was part of 0:06:18.680 --> 0:06:22.719 the course sort of popular practices found there. And one 0:06:22.760 --> 0:06:24.680 of the kids there, and I don't know if the 0:06:24.760 --> 0:06:29.760 kid was part of the shrine or custodian of some sort. 0:06:30.920 --> 0:06:33.600 He was a blind kid. And I had my camera 0:06:33.680 --> 0:06:37.080 with me at the time, and he was with his 0:06:37.680 --> 0:06:42.360 I think grandfather, our great grandfather, and he was also blind. 0:06:42.880 --> 0:06:46.400 And they knew I had camera, Like I didn't know 0:06:46.440 --> 0:06:48.719 how they knew because I had to leave the camera here. 0:06:49.480 --> 0:06:52.680 It wasn't clinking, it wasn't clanking, um. And there was 0:06:52.720 --> 0:06:58.440 something very kind of surreal and slightly otherworldly about both 0:06:58.440 --> 0:07:02.080 of them, um, and the way they had this like 0:07:02.120 --> 0:07:04.479 they could see me even though like I'm under present, 0:07:04.560 --> 0:07:08.919 sure they can't see me. These two are blinding. They 0:07:08.960 --> 0:07:12.840 shouldn't be able to. Are you they were blind? I 0:07:12.840 --> 0:07:16.720 guess it's yeah. I mean that's the real question. They 0:07:16.760 --> 0:07:21.360 could easily as not. But they weren't wearing sunglasses or 0:07:21.360 --> 0:07:25.960 any type of covering. And their eyes were white, um, 0:07:26.400 --> 0:07:30.440 and slightly damaged. So maybe they had side Maybe you know, 0:07:30.520 --> 0:07:35.320 my young teenage mind was slightly imaginating or or making 0:07:35.320 --> 0:07:38.320 it more than it there was. But this, this particular 0:07:38.840 --> 0:07:42.760 trine was known for dealing with the blind. There was 0:07:42.840 --> 0:07:46.680 a small spring next to it where people would kind 0:07:46.680 --> 0:07:49.320 of wash their faces and their hands, and it was 0:07:49.400 --> 0:07:53.840 meant reputed to kind of cure warts and acne and blindness. 0:07:54.440 --> 0:07:56.360 There were kind of the things associated with this. So 0:07:56.480 --> 0:08:00.160 the Custodians were generally believed to be blind themselves. Know, 0:08:00.320 --> 0:08:04.040 maybe they were running some great, you know, scam or 0:08:04.400 --> 0:08:06.800 or you know, I was imagining it, but it was 0:08:06.840 --> 0:08:11.040 a very unnerving, not frightening, but very unnerving kind of experience. 0:08:11.120 --> 0:08:14.400 They were. It was they were far more sure and 0:08:14.560 --> 0:08:18.880 confident and authoritied than I had expected, and they seemed 0:08:18.880 --> 0:08:21.120 to kind of see right through me, which was a 0:08:21.240 --> 0:08:23.880 very weird experience. Do you think they could have been gin? 0:08:24.120 --> 0:08:28.400 Is that what you're like? Suspicions? Yeah, the suspicion was 0:08:28.440 --> 0:08:33.320 they were they could possibly have been non not exactly human, 0:08:33.360 --> 0:08:36.800 because later when I asked my uncle's so, who were 0:08:36.800 --> 0:08:42.560 those people by the door, and was like, which people? So, uh, 0:08:42.640 --> 0:08:45.800 you know, the two the kids and the grandfather, And 0:08:45.880 --> 0:08:49.079 he didn't see that, So maybe he wasn't paying attention, 0:08:49.360 --> 0:08:52.080 or or maybe he was doing his own thing, and 0:08:52.120 --> 0:08:56.280 maybe I imagined it um. But that was for me, 0:08:56.720 --> 0:08:59.480 that only was the experience itself kind of unnerving. They're 0:08:59.520 --> 0:09:03.079 kind of the personality, if you will, for the vibe 0:09:03.360 --> 0:09:06.800 to use the millennia the word right, the vibe that 0:09:06.880 --> 0:09:10.000 they were giving um, but also the afterwards of it, 0:09:10.000 --> 0:09:13.720 which was I experienced if a my uncle didn't and 0:09:13.720 --> 0:09:15.200 and he was like, yeah, I didn't see anyone there. 0:09:15.760 --> 0:09:18.160 Oh that's crazy. Well so let me I know that 0:09:18.320 --> 0:09:20.440 was very interesting. Did you put your camera down and 0:09:20.440 --> 0:09:22.040 then walk into the shrine or what did you do? 0:09:22.440 --> 0:09:24.600 I did. I did put the camera down. There was 0:09:24.600 --> 0:09:26.760 no arguing. I mean I went in there as was 0:09:26.800 --> 0:09:30.080 sort of like amateur want to be historian at the time. 0:09:30.480 --> 0:09:32.480 I want to take pictures and I want to bring 0:09:32.520 --> 0:09:35.160 them back. But there was like, yeah, I'm not arguing 0:09:35.160 --> 0:09:37.320 with these people. I'm not. I'm not they this is 0:09:37.600 --> 0:09:40.320 they're in charge. I'm not. I'm the visitors. I'll put 0:09:40.320 --> 0:09:43.600 my camera down. Did make a fuss, went in, Uh, 0:09:43.800 --> 0:09:46.199 saw a couple of the candles, didn't lightened the well, 0:09:46.400 --> 0:09:48.520 put any locks, but I kind of walked around. It's 0:09:48.600 --> 0:09:52.200 really hot, uh and and kind of dimly lit, mostly 0:09:52.240 --> 0:09:54.559 just candles. And then when I walked back out and 0:09:54.679 --> 0:09:57.600 did a small donation but thank you, and took my 0:09:57.720 --> 0:10:00.920 camera with me. But then I asked my uncle once 0:10:00.960 --> 0:10:02.640 we got back to the car. He was just, again, 0:10:02.840 --> 0:10:04.880 I don't know who you're talking about. And they were 0:10:04.920 --> 0:10:08.480 sitting right in front too. Um. It wasn't like they 0:10:08.480 --> 0:10:11.200 were in an alcove where they were off kind of hidden. 0:10:11.280 --> 0:10:15.120 They were very much right there. Um. And so the 0:10:15.160 --> 0:10:17.599 experience was surreal. And then later as I started to 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:20.720 kind of gelve more academically into the gym, that became 0:10:20.760 --> 0:10:24.000 a very common theme amongst them as sort of guardians 0:10:24.040 --> 0:10:27.600 of shrines and places in nature, um, where they would 0:10:27.640 --> 0:10:30.960 kind of perch and sometimes appear as people were, as animals, 0:10:30.960 --> 0:10:33.719 et cetera. So who knews what that experience was. It 0:10:33.760 --> 0:10:35.959 could have been the heat, It could have been an 0:10:35.960 --> 0:10:39.800 overthrought imagination, but it was it was. It was unnerving. 0:10:39.840 --> 0:10:45.680 It was probably the most unnerving encounter I'd had something otherworldly. Wow. 0:10:46.520 --> 0:10:50.000 So let me, um, I want to talk about like 0:10:50.360 --> 0:10:54.440 they so from from the research times one and I have, 0:10:54.600 --> 0:10:56.600 there's so much I mean, like it's there's so many 0:10:56.679 --> 0:10:59.840 rabbit holes. Oh my gosh, it's been this is like 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:02.800 more complicated than like solving a wrongful conviction. It's it's 0:11:02.840 --> 0:11:06.800 like one whole after another after another. There's just such 0:11:06.840 --> 0:11:08.840 a I mean, there's centuries and centuries and centuries of 0:11:09.080 --> 0:11:12.360 you know, resource materials. Crazy. But one of the things 0:11:12.400 --> 0:11:15.200 I'm trying to figure out is this that you know, 0:11:15.280 --> 0:11:19.040 I I am getting a little bit confused about how 0:11:19.800 --> 0:11:22.880 like gin are categorized. And I've seen it in so 0:11:22.920 --> 0:11:25.840 many different ways. Beforest of all, there seems to be 0:11:25.960 --> 0:11:29.560 like there's a clear um, there's clear evidence for the 0:11:29.600 --> 0:11:33.680 fact that people believed in the existence of Gin before Islam, 0:11:33.880 --> 0:11:36.720 right like they were worshiped by the pre Islamic Arabs. 0:11:36.720 --> 0:11:41.000 There's connections to like Assyrian and Babylonian and all kinds 0:11:41.040 --> 0:11:46.360 of stuff. Um, But like how they're categorized is a 0:11:46.360 --> 0:11:48.679 little bit confusing to me. And I'll give you an example. 0:11:49.360 --> 0:11:54.040 I've read one place where there are like basically four categories. 0:11:54.080 --> 0:11:56.480 Like the categories would be so the ones who live 0:11:56.600 --> 0:11:59.120 among us, there's the one that attached themselves to children, 0:11:59.360 --> 0:12:01.520 and then it seems there's all these categories of really 0:12:01.520 --> 0:12:08.439 scary ones. So it's like the fret the marred them. No, 0:12:08.559 --> 0:12:10.880 I don't understand all those separate categories. Are they all 0:12:10.960 --> 0:12:14.240 under one category of like the bad ones? Or how 0:12:14.240 --> 0:12:17.839 do how a would I to understand these? You're you're 0:12:17.840 --> 0:12:22.000 absolutely right here, and you're completely fair to be confused. 0:12:22.400 --> 0:12:26.880 Everybody is confused, and that's because the categorizations overlap and 0:12:26.920 --> 0:12:31.160 they're contradictory and vary from author to author. Uh. Sort 0:12:31.160 --> 0:12:35.480 of classically, the general referred to in sort of types 0:12:36.160 --> 0:12:38.320 that there are those that fly, there are those that 0:12:38.360 --> 0:12:40.720 are amongst us, and those that takes sort of humans 0:12:40.960 --> 0:12:44.840 animal shape. That's one way of categorization. And then you'll 0:12:44.880 --> 0:12:50.600 find a more sort of atomized categorization, which they had names. 0:12:50.840 --> 0:12:55.120 There's the afreet than the rid, the gene, the whole uh. 0:12:55.160 --> 0:12:59.160 And then they're even further types of sort of categorization, 0:12:59.280 --> 0:13:02.280 some that are very kind of local um and all 0:13:02.320 --> 0:13:05.520 of them are you know, from an academic perspective, they're 0:13:05.559 --> 0:13:09.439 all right. That's just because people are going there dealing 0:13:09.520 --> 0:13:14.800 with something that is intangible. They're dealing with either sort 0:13:14.840 --> 0:13:18.280 of a literary experience that they're writing about the gin 0:13:18.360 --> 0:13:21.720 in the world of fiction and literature, or they're dealing 0:13:21.760 --> 0:13:25.400 with it in a sort of religious cosmological sense, or 0:13:25.440 --> 0:13:27.520 they're dealing with it in a vocal or sense, in 0:13:27.520 --> 0:13:29.960 which it's the oral stories that are told. And so 0:13:30.040 --> 0:13:33.839 as a result, there's a great deal of diversity or 0:13:33.920 --> 0:13:38.760 approaches towards classifications, and all of them are useful in 0:13:38.800 --> 0:13:42.160 their own ways. UM. I've discussed some of the classifications 0:13:42.160 --> 0:13:45.120 and kind of the threads that I've done, but even 0:13:45.200 --> 0:13:47.640 then it's just a sort of limited approach. There's so 0:13:47.679 --> 0:13:50.280 many different ways. UM. And there was a period of 0:13:50.280 --> 0:13:54.080 time and particularly during the medieval era about the nineth 0:13:54.080 --> 0:13:58.520 century to the thirteenth century, in which Muslim writers were 0:13:58.520 --> 0:14:01.160 really just trying to classify the whole world. They were 0:14:01.160 --> 0:14:04.120 writing about various animals in different places in the world, 0:14:04.200 --> 0:14:07.520 even people. They were classifying people, and so the gym 0:14:07.600 --> 0:14:10.440 were kind of caught up in this moment of sort 0:14:10.480 --> 0:14:15.360 of compilation, this moment of encyclopedia writing. UH. And and 0:14:15.480 --> 0:14:18.920 sort of part of this attempt to systematize the world 0:14:18.960 --> 0:14:21.960 will understand at least the world in a sort of 0:14:22.120 --> 0:14:25.120 orderly fashioned UH. And there's a debate, you know, some 0:14:25.120 --> 0:14:28.000 some authors talk about the freet is not separate from 0:14:28.000 --> 0:14:30.760 the movie, and the two are actually the same, uh, 0:14:30.840 --> 0:14:32.520 and others are a little bit more like, no, no, 0:14:32.640 --> 0:14:35.800 there's a difference between these. So there is a great 0:14:35.840 --> 0:14:38.200 deal of sort of slippage in the categories, and they're 0:14:38.240 --> 0:14:42.600 not as fixed um as we might think, And many 0:14:42.680 --> 0:14:45.560 Gin kind of overlap with one another. Someone will say, oh, 0:14:45.600 --> 0:14:47.040 it's in the freet now that you will say, oh, 0:14:47.040 --> 0:14:49.280 that work is actually on the rid, and then we'll say, oh, 0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:52.480 it's both. So there is a lot of overlap. I 0:14:52.480 --> 0:14:55.440 feel better knowing that because I thought this is really 0:14:55.440 --> 0:14:59.560 so complicated that I cannot come something that is that 0:14:59.600 --> 0:15:03.520 there are aren't somewhere. You're feeling exactly the way all 0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:08.000 of us feelings were come. That's exactly how it is. Okay, okay, good. 0:15:08.320 --> 0:15:09.600 One of the things, you know, I was talking to 0:15:09.640 --> 0:15:13.160 a friend of mine, um who about you know, just 0:15:13.280 --> 0:15:17.200 Gin experiences and stuff, and he made his comment he said, 0:15:18.080 --> 0:15:20.560 you know, I don't know. I mean, he comes from 0:15:20.560 --> 0:15:23.680 a South South Asian background as well, and he's like, 0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:25.280 I don't know. He's like, you know, it just seems 0:15:25.320 --> 0:15:28.480 like the GIN kind of skipped over North America and Europe, 0:15:28.560 --> 0:15:31.040 like they're all why are they all like why are 0:15:31.040 --> 0:15:33.600 they all concentrated back like where we come from. I 0:15:33.640 --> 0:15:37.640 don't know. Clearly you are very skeptical. But you know, now, 0:15:37.680 --> 0:15:40.640 of course there's also the idea that a lot of 0:15:40.640 --> 0:15:45.600 those kind of supernatural experiences that people do experience in 0:15:45.600 --> 0:15:48.400 in in the West might you could attribute to Gin. 0:15:48.480 --> 0:15:52.200 We we think everything is gin, but are there places 0:15:52.280 --> 0:15:54.360 that you're gonna find It seems like they're parts of 0:15:54.400 --> 0:15:56.920 the world, like places like in Morocco or Omana. So 0:15:56.920 --> 0:15:58.960 there's just certain places where it just seems like it's 0:15:59.000 --> 0:16:03.880 they're like they're just populate those places. Yes, certainly, I 0:16:03.920 --> 0:16:07.880 mean there's there's kind of two different approaches. One is 0:16:07.920 --> 0:16:12.120 the approached the general universal and that because they're a 0:16:12.200 --> 0:16:15.760 hidden race alongside humans, that they that wherever you find humans, 0:16:15.760 --> 0:16:19.200 so too where you kind of find Gin. And some 0:16:19.240 --> 0:16:21.840 would argue that the sort of folklore parallels that we 0:16:21.920 --> 0:16:26.360 find our evidence of that. Now, academics would simply say 0:16:26.400 --> 0:16:29.720 that these are people who are encountering similar you know, 0:16:29.840 --> 0:16:34.000 luminous experiences, are supernatural experiences and trying to make it legible. 0:16:34.000 --> 0:16:37.520 But it is quite striking that, for example, far off 0:16:37.520 --> 0:16:42.479 places in northern Europe refer to concepts like elves and 0:16:42.600 --> 0:16:46.160 dwarves and trolls that have a lot of similarities to 0:16:46.240 --> 0:16:49.600 some of the stories about the gin. Um. Similarly that 0:16:49.760 --> 0:16:52.920 the concept of the sheet and sort of Celtic world, 0:16:53.600 --> 0:16:57.600 a sort of hidden race, are fairy very similar to 0:16:57.720 --> 0:17:02.320 the Gin, but it's also simultaneously true. They seem to 0:17:02.480 --> 0:17:05.920 congregate in certain places and in some places have reputations 0:17:06.800 --> 0:17:11.040 of being uniquely haunted by jin Oman as you rightly 0:17:11.040 --> 0:17:13.880 pointed out as one of those right very famously kind 0:17:13.920 --> 0:17:19.440 of asas the most Gin haunted place in the worlds Um, 0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:23.919 but so too we find South Asia, India has especially 0:17:24.160 --> 0:17:27.280 Islam has ribed in India and Bacon the kind of 0:17:27.400 --> 0:17:30.040 language of the Gin is very popular that indead it 0:17:30.240 --> 0:17:34.880 is uniquely haunted. Afghanistan another place that's considered uniquely haunted. 0:17:35.200 --> 0:17:39.800 Islands and the Indian Ocean are also considered to be 0:17:40.119 --> 0:17:42.040 kind of places that are unique to the Gin. And 0:17:42.080 --> 0:17:44.840 I think some of this has revolved around the type 0:17:44.840 --> 0:17:49.040 of lore that gets told that's really kind of strong 0:17:49.280 --> 0:17:53.120 storytelling cultures. That's where we have more stories coming out 0:17:53.160 --> 0:17:57.240 of those places. But also because of their histories and 0:17:57.280 --> 0:18:01.760 locations themselves, jin are then said to believe, you know, 0:18:01.800 --> 0:18:03.800 the belief is that sure, they live amongst us, but 0:18:03.840 --> 0:18:07.760 they're uniquely kind of associated with ruins, and they're associated 0:18:07.800 --> 0:18:10.760 with sort of ancient places. Uh. And so in the 0:18:10.840 --> 0:18:15.040 kind of popular Muslim imagination, places like Oman and South 0:18:15.080 --> 0:18:18.040 Asian and Afghanistan and these islands often are tied to 0:18:18.119 --> 0:18:21.040 like all these with ancient civilizations. So these are places 0:18:21.040 --> 0:18:23.399 with a lot of ruins or oh there these is 0:18:23.400 --> 0:18:27.600 a lot of these natural, untouched formations. Therefore, of course 0:18:27.640 --> 0:18:30.119 these places have to have their GIN to have these 0:18:30.200 --> 0:18:33.680 kind of two parallel traditions that are looking side by side. 0:18:33.480 --> 0:18:37.080 But one GIN is really universally can find them anywhere. 0:18:37.400 --> 0:18:40.960 And Muslims make legible kind of supernatural experiences in vic 0:18:41.000 --> 0:18:44.920 to the gen Uflo abduction, well that's a gen haunting 0:18:44.960 --> 0:18:51.880 class of gen um as well. Circle yeah, crop circles 0:18:51.960 --> 0:18:55.119 gen So there's all like everything is made legible within 0:18:55.200 --> 0:18:58.919 that idea of the gym. And then there's other parallel tradition. 0:18:58.960 --> 0:19:02.040 It's more like well of concentrations and them out in 0:19:02.080 --> 0:19:04.400 the world. And so maybe you're not going to find 0:19:04.440 --> 0:19:06.600 a lot of them in North America, but if you 0:19:06.640 --> 0:19:09.800 go to Oman, you're going to find a lot of them. 0:19:09.960 --> 0:19:12.600 Can I ask you though, if and I'm sure you 0:19:12.920 --> 0:19:16.320 have in all your years of like studying this examined, Like, 0:19:16.440 --> 0:19:18.880 you know, Gin stories from different parts of the world. 0:19:18.880 --> 0:19:21.280 Are there kind of common themes you see here? And 0:19:21.359 --> 0:19:25.240 are there sometimes like real divergences like in stories let's 0:19:25.240 --> 0:19:27.359 say you hear from like let's say Bosnia versus in 0:19:27.359 --> 0:19:30.880 a kneese ower. You know, can you can you talk 0:19:30.880 --> 0:19:34.080 a little bit about that. Yeah, there are very common 0:19:34.119 --> 0:19:38.040 themes amongst amongst Gin stories and you can see them, uh, 0:19:38.640 --> 0:19:41.879 kind of globally. And that's that's an example of the 0:19:41.880 --> 0:19:44.879 way in which as Islam spread, so to the stories 0:19:44.920 --> 0:19:47.879 of the Gin spread with them. And so those themes 0:19:47.880 --> 0:19:50.439 are found everywhere. The idea of a headed race, that 0:19:50.480 --> 0:19:54.320 they're kind of mischievous, that they're associated with the night, 0:19:55.320 --> 0:19:58.240 that they're linked to animals, those are all very common. 0:19:58.480 --> 0:20:01.680 No matter where you go, from north of North Africa 0:20:02.080 --> 0:20:04.000 all the way to Indonesia, those are very common. But 0:20:04.000 --> 0:20:07.600 then they're also kind of regional variations. So for example, 0:20:08.240 --> 0:20:13.639 in North Africa you'll find more kind of symbiotic relationships 0:20:13.760 --> 0:20:17.240 with the Gin, in which the Gin, as troublesome as 0:20:17.280 --> 0:20:20.680 they can be, can be invited in for a sort 0:20:20.720 --> 0:20:25.600 of consensual possession, that is possession that is actively sought out, 0:20:26.160 --> 0:20:28.840 and these are found in certain sort of Sufi circles. 0:20:28.920 --> 0:20:31.440 The Busines, for example, will engage in this type of 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:36.119 activity in which the gin will actually possess certain saints 0:20:36.240 --> 0:20:39.560 or sages or mystics and then kind of work miracles 0:20:39.600 --> 0:20:43.800 and offerings and sort of do oracular activities. That's very 0:20:43.960 --> 0:20:47.840 uniquely North Africa, and you find it in Morocco, you 0:20:47.960 --> 0:20:50.720 find it some other places. Sudan is another place you 0:20:50.840 --> 0:20:52.920 find it. You're not going to find that, for example, 0:20:53.520 --> 0:20:56.000 in Lebanon, you're not going to find that insula. You're 0:20:56.000 --> 0:20:57.880 not going to find that intact area where the gen 0:20:57.920 --> 0:21:00.800 are far more kind of problematic. They're kind of a pain, 0:21:01.440 --> 0:21:04.040 and you live alongside them, but you don't want them 0:21:04.040 --> 0:21:07.200 to possess you. That's a bad experience, it's a it's 0:21:07.240 --> 0:21:11.440 an invasive experience. And then contrast, I would say Indonesia 0:21:11.440 --> 0:21:14.199 and Malaysia, where the gin have a much sort of 0:21:14.440 --> 0:21:19.359 clear shamanic component to them. They're associated more actively with 0:21:19.520 --> 0:21:25.920 healing and medicine and practices that are very clearly part 0:21:26.119 --> 0:21:30.800 of local and pre Islamic folk belief. So there there's 0:21:31.119 --> 0:21:32.480 this is one of the reasons why I find the 0:21:32.520 --> 0:21:35.080 Gin so fascinating is that it's simultaneously shows us the 0:21:35.080 --> 0:21:38.399 way that Islam spread and is localized, but also shows 0:21:38.440 --> 0:21:42.760 us the way in which various pre Islamic practices are preserved. 0:21:43.320 --> 0:21:46.600 Whether it's a cult of possession or it's a shamanic 0:21:46.680 --> 0:21:50.399 healing tradition, those things end up getting incorporated in the 0:21:50.520 --> 0:21:54.480 sort of folk Islamic practices, and the Gin are front 0:21:54.480 --> 0:21:57.600 and center in that. And how people approach the Gin, 0:21:57.720 --> 0:22:00.800 how they see the Gin, their relations and hip to 0:22:00.880 --> 0:22:04.359 the Gin, really tells us these kind of unique and 0:22:04.480 --> 0:22:08.399 diverse traditions, and most of it is pre Islamic that 0:22:08.480 --> 0:22:12.159 just kind of endures or reimagined within a sort of 0:22:12.200 --> 0:22:17.440 Islamic cosmology. Can I ask you, have you come across 0:22:17.560 --> 0:22:23.960 any kind of like narratives or belief let's say amongst 0:22:24.680 --> 0:22:29.640 the first people in North America, um that might coincide 0:22:29.720 --> 0:22:35.520 or overlap or somehow connected Gin traditions a certain degree. 0:22:35.560 --> 0:22:38.080 A lot of the kind of land spirits and major 0:22:38.160 --> 0:22:42.560 spirits found within the first people in First Nations traditions 0:22:42.720 --> 0:22:46.840 have some similarity to the Gin, particularly if we if 0:22:46.840 --> 0:22:48.399 we were to look at them in a sort of 0:22:48.480 --> 0:22:52.720 in their pre Islamic form as these sort of intermediary 0:22:53.040 --> 0:22:58.240 entity between the sort of celestial world and human world, 0:22:58.960 --> 0:23:02.159 particularly if we see them as nature spirits, uh and 0:23:02.240 --> 0:23:05.280 not just sort of infernal, then yes, there's a lot 0:23:05.320 --> 0:23:07.720 of sort of there's a lot of commonality. I wouldn't 0:23:07.720 --> 0:23:10.720 say they map out exactly, uh, and there's some very 0:23:10.800 --> 0:23:15.760 clear differences, but I would say that they're mostly you 0:23:15.800 --> 0:23:20.439 can find similar traditions almost globally. Um. For example, when 0:23:20.440 --> 0:23:24.040 I was talking about, um, the house gym that that 0:23:24.200 --> 0:23:29.840 exists in leaving offerings of milk, that's found in Slavic countries, 0:23:29.880 --> 0:23:34.160 that's found in Russia, that's found in northern Europe. Uh, 0:23:34.320 --> 0:23:37.800 this idea of a house spirit or house help that 0:23:37.960 --> 0:23:42.240 you can work with, and you find similar amongst even 0:23:42.359 --> 0:23:47.600 in South America. There are some good traditions amongst the 0:23:47.640 --> 0:23:51.440 indigenous populations in Brazil of a certain type of fiery 0:23:51.600 --> 0:23:55.880