1 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:06,040 Speaker 1: Welcome to The Hidden Gin, a production of I Heart 2 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: Radio and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Mankey. Hi, and 3 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:34,160 Speaker 1: welcome to this very special bonus series of The Hidden Gin. 4 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:38,159 Speaker 1: The interviews. In these episodes, you'll hear me talk to 5 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:41,479 Speaker 1: people from all walks of life who have had GIN experiences, 6 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 1: are drawn to the stories of Gin, and draw lessons 7 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:49,480 Speaker 1: from these stories. You'll hear from artists, scholars, writers, journalists, 8 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 1: and Gin exorcists, and even from me as I discuss 9 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:55,800 Speaker 1: how and why this series came about in a very 10 00:00:55,840 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 1: personal conversation with my husband. Thanks for listening and enjoy. 11 00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:08,559 Speaker 1: All right, so let's just start at the top then, um, 12 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:11,320 Speaker 1: can you can you please introduce yourself? Tell us a 13 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:14,480 Speaker 1: little bit about who you are and what you do. Sure. 14 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 1: My name is Ali ALONEI I am an assistant professor 15 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:23,480 Speaker 1: of history at Penn State Abington working on medieval Islam 16 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:27,480 Speaker 1: in the modern global Middle East. I specialized in Muslim politics, 17 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 1: Islamic esoterrorism, and folklore. Wow, so I discovered you. I 18 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 1: don't know how I discovered you. I don't know if 19 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:39,679 Speaker 1: I searched for the word gin on Twitter. I don't 20 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 1: know how I encountered your Twitter account, but it is 21 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 1: a has been a gold mine, and that's been to 22 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 1: treat to follow you online. Do you do you have 23 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 1: a special affinity for the Gin? Like what's going on here? 24 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 1: I mean, I love the Gin and I think that 25 00:01:57,240 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 1: they're a fascinating sort of creature that doesn't often get 26 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 1: talked about outside of sort of Muslim circles. Uh. And 27 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 1: so while you say Jin and Muslims, I mediica. Oh yeah, 28 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:10,679 Speaker 1: and exactly what you're talking about. Most people don't who 29 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 1: want Muslims. And so I've always had this connection, and well, 30 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:15,919 Speaker 1: why don't I share a little bit about the Gin 31 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:17,919 Speaker 1: and talk about it. I had already been doing it 32 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 1: in my classrooms for a long time. Whenever top history 33 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 1: of Islam, there's always several weeks kind of dedicated to 34 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 1: like esoterrorism, cultural aspect, sharing Gin stories. Its awesome opportunity 35 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 1: for Middle Eastern students and South Asian students and the 36 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:37,640 Speaker 1: African students to share their own experiences. And then I 37 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:40,240 Speaker 1: was like, going, what I could just open this up 38 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 1: a little bit more and talk about it more publicly, 39 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:45,239 Speaker 1: and so I did. I started using Twitter as a 40 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 1: way of sharing aspects of Islamic esoterrorism, astrology, folklore, but 41 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:54,160 Speaker 1: then also the gym as well. Can I see what 42 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:58,360 Speaker 1: you cut your own? Like? Ethnic and cultural background is sure? Yeah, 43 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:01,359 Speaker 1: I come from an ad again background, going and raised 44 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:05,240 Speaker 1: in the United States by families all again. So let 45 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:07,680 Speaker 1: me start. I'm gonna ask you a real personal question now, 46 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:10,920 Speaker 1: have you before we get into all the questions about Jin, 47 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 1: have you ever had a personal encounter with Jin in 48 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 1: your own life? Well, my family has had a pretty 49 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:20,640 Speaker 1: interesting experiences with Jin there. It's not uncommon to talk 50 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 1: about various sort of encounters Um, some very kind of 51 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:29,080 Speaker 1: famous ones, usually around the funeral. My great grandfather was 52 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:33,040 Speaker 1: known to speak to gin Um and I. I've had 53 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 1: me not kind of interesting, weird and eerie encounters out there, 54 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 1: whether they're Jin or not. You know, it's people a 55 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 1: good side. But one kind of interesting moment was I 56 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 1: came home for school. I was reather to be on 57 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 1: I think maybe early high school, late middle school, and 58 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 1: I walked in and there was just this cat in 59 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 1: my house. The doors of the lock, the words flocks. 60 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 1: Had no idea how this cat got in and completely 61 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 1: had made itself at home, just very well acts. When 62 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 1: I walked in it doesn't startled, just kind of looked 63 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 1: up from where it was napping, as if you're interrupting 64 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:09,640 Speaker 1: my nap um in a very sort of regal manner. 65 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 1: And as is customary for anyone who's grown up in 66 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 1: a Muslim background, you kind of know that maybe that 67 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 1: could be a gym, and so this sort of protocol 68 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 1: around it, you don't you don't try not to send it. 69 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 1: You're trying not to be rude. So I simply said, 70 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:27,479 Speaker 1: thanks for visiting, but it's time for you to go, uh, 71 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:29,920 Speaker 1: and kind of opened the door, and it got up 72 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 1: and walked right out, every kind of interesting in eerie 73 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 1: encounter and and kind of like maybe it was just 74 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 1: a really funky cat or maybe it was something else, 75 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:44,279 Speaker 1: who knows. Wow, So you, at a pretty young age 76 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 1: like knew the protocol to like ask to leave your home. 77 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:52,040 Speaker 1: Oh oh totally why, I mean, I grew up my 78 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:55,479 Speaker 1: my fascination with folklore was really fostered by by my 79 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:59,160 Speaker 1: my family. My grandmother would tell me stories growing up. 80 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 1: In those stories always in evolved kind of some elements 81 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 1: of instructions and elements of teaching, so like you know, 82 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 1: you know, you knew how to you know what prayers 83 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 1: to say. I had to course see you know, you 84 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:13,479 Speaker 1: knew if you were scared at night what you would do. Uh, 85 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 1: if you encountered the sort of new Minnesota the gym, 86 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:20,480 Speaker 1: you kind of had some ideas because you have been 87 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 1: familiar with the stories you we were growing up, UM 88 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:26,360 Speaker 1: and by about middle school of high school, you kind 89 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 1: of figured out if I'd need a gym, just don't 90 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 1: piss it off. Well, did you ever have any any 91 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:34,720 Speaker 1: of the weird encounters you have? Have any of them 92 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:39,840 Speaker 1: ever been frightening? Uh? There was one slightly fright I 93 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:41,599 Speaker 1: wouldn't say it was like frightening the sense that I 94 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 1: was scared for my life. But it was one of 95 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:46,280 Speaker 1: those like what what is even happening here? It was 96 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 1: actually an Afghanistan? And so I visited Afghanistan once I 97 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 1: graduated high school. UM, and in one of the ruins 98 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 1: there was a blind kid. This was a sort of 99 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:03,719 Speaker 1: historical flight that had slightly been turned into a shrine. 100 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:07,479 Speaker 1: People would go there and they would lock locks, like 101 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 1: little key locks that they would say prayers and they 102 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:12,520 Speaker 1: would lock it. And that's a way to lock your 103 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:15,600 Speaker 1: prayer or light candles. Kind of a folk practice that 104 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:18,680 Speaker 1: isn't considered part of Orthodox Islam, but was part of 105 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:22,719 Speaker 1: the course sort of popular practices found there. And one 106 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 1: of the kids there, and I don't know if the 107 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 1: kid was part of the shrine or custodian of some sort. 108 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:33,600 Speaker 1: He was a blind kid. And I had my camera 109 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 1: with me at the time, and he was with his 110 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:42,360 Speaker 1: I think grandfather, our great grandfather, and he was also blind. 111 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 1: And they knew I had camera, Like I didn't know 112 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:48,719 Speaker 1: how they knew because I had to leave the camera here. 113 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:52,680 Speaker 1: It wasn't clinking, it wasn't clanking, um. And there was 114 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 1: something very kind of surreal and slightly otherworldly about both 115 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 1: of them, um, and the way they had this like 116 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:04,479 Speaker 1: they could see me even though like I'm under present, 117 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:08,919 Speaker 1: sure they can't see me. These two are blinding. They 118 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 1: shouldn't be able to. Are you they were blind? I 119 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 1: guess it's yeah. I mean that's the real question. They 120 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 1: could easily as not. But they weren't wearing sunglasses or 121 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 1: any type of covering. And their eyes were white, um, 122 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 1: and slightly damaged. So maybe they had side Maybe you know, 123 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 1: my young teenage mind was slightly imaginating or or making 124 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 1: it more than it there was. But this, this particular 125 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 1: trine was known for dealing with the blind. There was 126 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 1: a small spring next to it where people would kind 127 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 1: of wash their faces and their hands, and it was 128 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 1: meant reputed to kind of cure warts and acne and blindness. 129 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 1: There were kind of the things associated with this. So 130 00:07:56,480 --> 00:08:00,160 Speaker 1: the Custodians were generally believed to be blind themselves. Know, 131 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 1: maybe they were running some great, you know, scam or 132 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 1: or you know, I was imagining it, but it was 133 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 1: a very unnerving, not frightening, but very unnerving kind of experience. 134 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 1: They were. It was they were far more sure and 135 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 1: confident and authoritied than I had expected, and they seemed 136 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 1: to kind of see right through me, which was a 137 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 1: very weird experience. Do you think they could have been gin? 138 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 1: Is that what you're like? Suspicions? Yeah, the suspicion was 139 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:33,320 Speaker 1: they were they could possibly have been non not exactly human, 140 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 1: because later when I asked my uncle's so, who were 141 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:42,560 Speaker 1: those people by the door, and was like, which people? So, uh, 142 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 1: you know, the two the kids and the grandfather, And 143 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:49,079 Speaker 1: he didn't see that, So maybe he wasn't paying attention, 144 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:52,080 Speaker 1: or or maybe he was doing his own thing, and 145 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:56,280 Speaker 1: maybe I imagined it um. But that was for me, 146 00:08:56,720 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 1: that only was the experience itself kind of unnerving. They're 147 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:03,079 Speaker 1: kind of the personality, if you will, for the vibe 148 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 1: to use the millennia the word right, the vibe that 149 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: they were giving um, but also the afterwards of it, 150 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 1: which was I experienced if a my uncle didn't and 151 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:15,200 Speaker 1: and he was like, yeah, I didn't see anyone there. 152 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 1: Oh that's crazy. Well so let me I know that 153 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:20,440 Speaker 1: was very interesting. Did you put your camera down and 154 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 1: then walk into the shrine or what did you do? 155 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 1: I did. I did put the camera down. There was 156 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 1: no arguing. I mean I went in there as was 157 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:30,080 Speaker 1: sort of like amateur want to be historian at the time. 158 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 1: I want to take pictures and I want to bring 159 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 1: them back. But there was like, yeah, I'm not arguing 160 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:37,320 Speaker 1: with these people. I'm not. I'm not they this is 161 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:40,320 Speaker 1: they're in charge. I'm not. I'm the visitors. I'll put 162 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 1: my camera down. Did make a fuss, went in, Uh, 163 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:46,199 Speaker 1: saw a couple of the candles, didn't lightened the well, 164 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 1: put any locks, but I kind of walked around. It's 165 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:52,200 Speaker 1: really hot, uh and and kind of dimly lit, mostly 166 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:54,559 Speaker 1: just candles. And then when I walked back out and 167 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 1: did a small donation but thank you, and took my 168 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 1: camera with me. But then I asked my uncle once 169 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: we got back to the car. He was just, again, 170 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 1: I don't know who you're talking about. And they were 171 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 1: sitting right in front too. Um. It wasn't like they 172 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:11,200 Speaker 1: were in an alcove where they were off kind of hidden. 173 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 1: They were very much right there. Um. And so the 174 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:17,599 Speaker 1: experience was surreal. And then later as I started to 175 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:20,720 Speaker 1: kind of gelve more academically into the gym, that became 176 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 1: a very common theme amongst them as sort of guardians 177 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 1: of shrines and places in nature, um, where they would 178 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:30,960 Speaker 1: kind of perch and sometimes appear as people were, as animals, 179 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:33,719 Speaker 1: et cetera. So who knews what that experience was. It 180 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:35,959 Speaker 1: could have been the heat, It could have been an 181 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 1: overthrought imagination, but it was it was. It was unnerving. 182 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:45,680 Speaker 1: It was probably the most unnerving encounter I'd had something otherworldly. Wow. 183 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:50,000 Speaker 1: So let me, um, I want to talk about like 184 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:54,440 Speaker 1: they so from from the research times one and I have, 185 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 1: there's so much I mean, like it's there's so many 186 00:10:56,679 --> 00:10:59,840 Speaker 1: rabbit holes. Oh my gosh, it's been this is like 187 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 1: more complicated than like solving a wrongful conviction. It's it's 188 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 1: like one whole after another after another. There's just such 189 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:08,840 Speaker 1: a I mean, there's centuries and centuries and centuries of 190 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 1: you know, resource materials. Crazy. But one of the things 191 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:15,200 Speaker 1: I'm trying to figure out is this that you know, 192 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 1: I I am getting a little bit confused about how 193 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 1: like gin are categorized. And I've seen it in so 194 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:25,840 Speaker 1: many different ways. Beforest of all, there seems to be 195 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:29,560 Speaker 1: like there's a clear um, there's clear evidence for the 196 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:33,680 Speaker 1: fact that people believed in the existence of Gin before Islam, 197 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 1: right like they were worshiped by the pre Islamic Arabs. 198 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 1: There's connections to like Assyrian and Babylonian and all kinds 199 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:46,360 Speaker 1: of stuff. Um, But like how they're categorized is a 200 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:48,679 Speaker 1: little bit confusing to me. And I'll give you an example. 201 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 1: I've read one place where there are like basically four categories. 202 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 1: Like the categories would be so the ones who live 203 00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 1: among us, there's the one that attached themselves to children, 204 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 1: and then it seems there's all these categories of really 205 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:08,439 Speaker 1: scary ones. So it's like the fret the marred them. No, 206 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 1: I don't understand all those separate categories. Are they all 207 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 1: under one category of like the bad ones? Or how 208 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:17,839 Speaker 1: do how a would I to understand these? You're you're 209 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:22,000 Speaker 1: absolutely right here, and you're completely fair to be confused. 210 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:26,880 Speaker 1: Everybody is confused, and that's because the categorizations overlap and 211 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 1: they're contradictory and vary from author to author. Uh. Sort 212 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 1: of classically, the general referred to in sort of types 213 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:38,320 Speaker 1: that there are those that fly, there are those that 214 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:40,720 Speaker 1: are amongst us, and those that takes sort of humans 215 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:44,840 Speaker 1: animal shape. That's one way of categorization. And then you'll 216 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 1: find a more sort of atomized categorization, which they had names. 217 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 1: There's the afreet than the rid, the gene, the whole uh. 218 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 1: And then they're even further types of sort of categorization, 219 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 1: some that are very kind of local um and all 220 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 1: of them are you know, from an academic perspective, they're 221 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:09,439 Speaker 1: all right. That's just because people are going there dealing 222 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 1: with something that is intangible. They're dealing with either sort 223 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 1: of a literary experience that they're writing about the gin 224 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:21,720 Speaker 1: in the world of fiction and literature, or they're dealing 225 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 1: with it in a sort of religious cosmological sense, or 226 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 1: they're dealing with it in a vocal or sense, in 227 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:29,960 Speaker 1: which it's the oral stories that are told. And so 228 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:33,839 Speaker 1: as a result, there's a great deal of diversity or 229 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 1: approaches towards classifications, and all of them are useful in 230 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 1: their own ways. UM. I've discussed some of the classifications 231 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 1: and kind of the threads that I've done, but even 232 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 1: then it's just a sort of limited approach. There's so 233 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 1: many different ways. UM. And there was a period of 234 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:54,080 Speaker 1: time and particularly during the medieval era about the nineth 235 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 1: century to the thirteenth century, in which Muslim writers were 236 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:01,160 Speaker 1: really just trying to classify the whole world. They were 237 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 1: writing about various animals in different places in the world, 238 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 1: even people. They were classifying people, and so the gym 239 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 1: were kind of caught up in this moment of sort 240 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 1: of compilation, this moment of encyclopedia writing. UH. And and 241 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 1: sort of part of this attempt to systematize the world 242 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 1: will understand at least the world in a sort of 243 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 1: orderly fashioned UH. And there's a debate, you know, some 244 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 1: some authors talk about the freet is not separate from 245 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:30,760 Speaker 1: the movie, and the two are actually the same, uh, 246 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 1: and others are a little bit more like, no, no, 247 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 1: there's a difference between these. So there is a great 248 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 1: deal of sort of slippage in the categories, and they're 249 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 1: not as fixed um as we might think, And many 250 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 1: Gin kind of overlap with one another. Someone will say, oh, 251 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 1: it's in the freet now that you will say, oh, 252 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 1: that work is actually on the rid, and then we'll say, oh, 253 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:52,480 Speaker 1: it's both. So there is a lot of overlap. I 254 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 1: feel better knowing that because I thought this is really 255 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 1: so complicated that I cannot come something that is that 256 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 1: there are aren't somewhere. You're feeling exactly the way all 257 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:08,000 Speaker 1: of us feelings were come. That's exactly how it is. Okay, okay, good. 258 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 1: One of the things, you know, I was talking to 259 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 1: a friend of mine, um who about you know, just 260 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 1: Gin experiences and stuff, and he made his comment he said, 261 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 1: you know, I don't know. I mean, he comes from 262 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 1: a South South Asian background as well, and he's like, 263 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 1: I don't know. He's like, you know, it just seems 264 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:28,480 Speaker 1: like the GIN kind of skipped over North America and Europe, 265 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 1: like they're all why are they all like why are 266 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 1: they all concentrated back like where we come from. I 267 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 1: don't know. Clearly you are very skeptical. But you know, now, 268 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 1: of course there's also the idea that a lot of 269 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 1: those kind of supernatural experiences that people do experience in 270 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 1: in in the West might you could attribute to Gin. 271 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 1: We we think everything is gin, but are there places 272 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 1: that you're gonna find It seems like they're parts of 273 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 1: the world, like places like in Morocco or Omana. So 274 00:15:56,920 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 1: there's just certain places where it just seems like it's 275 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 1: they're like they're just populate those places. Yes, certainly, I 276 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 1: mean there's there's kind of two different approaches. One is 277 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 1: the approached the general universal and that because they're a 278 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 1: hidden race alongside humans, that they that wherever you find humans, 279 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 1: so too where you kind of find Gin. And some 280 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 1: would argue that the sort of folklore parallels that we 281 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 1: find our evidence of that. Now, academics would simply say 282 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:29,720 Speaker 1: that these are people who are encountering similar you know, 283 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:34,000 Speaker 1: luminous experiences, are supernatural experiences and trying to make it legible. 284 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 1: But it is quite striking that, for example, far off 285 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:42,479 Speaker 1: places in northern Europe refer to concepts like elves and 286 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 1: dwarves and trolls that have a lot of similarities to 287 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 1: some of the stories about the gin. Um. Similarly that 288 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 1: the concept of the sheet and sort of Celtic world, 289 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 1: a sort of hidden race, are fairy very similar to 290 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 1: the Gin, but it's also simultaneously true. They seem to 291 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:05,920 Speaker 1: congregate in certain places and in some places have reputations 292 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 1: of being uniquely haunted by jin Oman as you rightly 293 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:13,880 Speaker 1: pointed out as one of those right very famously kind 294 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:19,440 Speaker 1: of asas the most Gin haunted place in the worlds Um, 295 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:23,919 Speaker 1: but so too we find South Asia, India has especially 296 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 1: Islam has ribed in India and Bacon the kind of 297 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 1: language of the Gin is very popular that indead it 298 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:34,880 Speaker 1: is uniquely haunted. Afghanistan another place that's considered uniquely haunted. 299 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 1: Islands and the Indian Ocean are also considered to be 300 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: kind of places that are unique to the Gin. And 301 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 1: I think some of this has revolved around the type 302 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 1: of lore that gets told that's really kind of strong 303 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:53,120 Speaker 1: storytelling cultures. That's where we have more stories coming out 304 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 1: of those places. But also because of their histories and 305 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 1: locations themselves, jin are then said to believe, you know, 306 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 1: the belief is that sure, they live amongst us, but 307 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 1: they're uniquely kind of associated with ruins, and they're associated 308 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 1: with sort of ancient places. Uh. And so in the 309 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 1: kind of popular Muslim imagination, places like Oman and South 310 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 1: Asian and Afghanistan and these islands often are tied to 311 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 1: like all these with ancient civilizations. So these are places 312 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:23,399 Speaker 1: with a lot of ruins or oh there these is 313 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 1: a lot of these natural, untouched formations. Therefore, of course 314 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:30,119 Speaker 1: these places have to have their GIN to have these 315 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:33,680 Speaker 1: kind of two parallel traditions that are looking side by side. 316 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 1: But one GIN is really universally can find them anywhere. 317 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 1: And Muslims make legible kind of supernatural experiences in vic 318 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:44,920 Speaker 1: to the gen Uflo abduction, well that's a gen haunting 319 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:51,880 Speaker 1: class of gen um as well. Circle yeah, crop circles 320 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:55,119 Speaker 1: gen So there's all like everything is made legible within 321 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:58,919 Speaker 1: that idea of the gym. And then there's other parallel tradition. 322 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 1: It's more like well of concentrations and them out in 323 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:04,400 Speaker 1: the world. And so maybe you're not going to find 324 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 1: a lot of them in North America, but if you 325 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:09,800 Speaker 1: go to Oman, you're going to find a lot of them. 326 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 1: Can I ask you though, if and I'm sure you 327 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 1: have in all your years of like studying this examined, Like, 328 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:18,880 Speaker 1: you know, Gin stories from different parts of the world. 329 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 1: Are there kind of common themes you see here? And 330 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:25,240 Speaker 1: are there sometimes like real divergences like in stories let's 331 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:27,359 Speaker 1: say you hear from like let's say Bosnia versus in 332 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:30,880 Speaker 1: a kneese ower. You know, can you can you talk 333 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 1: a little bit about that. Yeah, there are very common 334 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 1: themes amongst amongst Gin stories and you can see them, uh, 335 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:41,879 Speaker 1: kind of globally. And that's that's an example of the 336 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:44,879 Speaker 1: way in which as Islam spread, so to the stories 337 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:47,879 Speaker 1: of the Gin spread with them. And so those themes 338 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:50,439 Speaker 1: are found everywhere. The idea of a headed race, that 339 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:54,320 Speaker 1: they're kind of mischievous, that they're associated with the night, 340 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:58,240 Speaker 1: that they're linked to animals, those are all very common. 341 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:01,680 Speaker 1: No matter where you go, from north of North Africa 342 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 1: all the way to Indonesia, those are very common. But 343 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 1: then they're also kind of regional variations. So for example, 344 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:13,639 Speaker 1: in North Africa you'll find more kind of symbiotic relationships 345 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:17,240 Speaker 1: with the Gin, in which the Gin, as troublesome as 346 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:20,680 Speaker 1: they can be, can be invited in for a sort 347 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 1: of consensual possession, that is possession that is actively sought out, 348 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 1: and these are found in certain sort of Sufi circles. 349 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:31,440 Speaker 1: The Busines, for example, will engage in this type of 350 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:36,119 Speaker 1: activity in which the gin will actually possess certain saints 351 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 1: or sages or mystics and then kind of work miracles 352 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:43,800 Speaker 1: and offerings and sort of do oracular activities. That's very 353 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:47,840 Speaker 1: uniquely North Africa, and you find it in Morocco, you 354 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:50,720 Speaker 1: find it some other places. Sudan is another place you 355 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:52,920 Speaker 1: find it. You're not going to find that, for example, 356 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:56,000 Speaker 1: in Lebanon, you're not going to find that insula. You're 357 00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:57,880 Speaker 1: not going to find that intact area where the gen 358 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 1: are far more kind of problematic. They're kind of a pain, 359 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 1: and you live alongside them, but you don't want them 360 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:07,200 Speaker 1: to possess you. That's a bad experience, it's a it's 361 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:11,440 Speaker 1: an invasive experience. And then contrast, I would say Indonesia 362 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:14,199 Speaker 1: and Malaysia, where the gin have a much sort of 363 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:19,359 Speaker 1: clear shamanic component to them. They're associated more actively with 364 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:25,920 Speaker 1: healing and medicine and practices that are very clearly part 365 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:30,800 Speaker 1: of local and pre Islamic folk belief. So there there's 366 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:32,480 Speaker 1: this is one of the reasons why I find the 367 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 1: Gin so fascinating is that it's simultaneously shows us the 368 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:38,399 Speaker 1: way that Islam spread and is localized, but also shows 369 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 1: us the way in which various pre Islamic practices are preserved. 370 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 1: Whether it's a cult of possession or it's a shamanic 371 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:50,399 Speaker 1: healing tradition, those things end up getting incorporated in the 372 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:54,480 Speaker 1: sort of folk Islamic practices, and the Gin are front 373 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 1: and center in that. And how people approach the Gin, 374 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:00,800 Speaker 1: how they see the Gin, their relations and hip to 375 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:04,359 Speaker 1: the Gin, really tells us these kind of unique and 376 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:08,399 Speaker 1: diverse traditions, and most of it is pre Islamic that 377 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:12,159 Speaker 1: just kind of endures or reimagined within a sort of 378 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:17,440 Speaker 1: Islamic cosmology. Can I ask you, have you come across 379 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:23,960 Speaker 1: any kind of like narratives or belief let's say amongst 380 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:29,640 Speaker 1: the first people in North America, um that might coincide 381 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 1: or overlap or somehow connected Gin traditions a certain degree. 382 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 1: A lot of the kind of land spirits and major 383 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:42,560 Speaker 1: spirits found within the first people in First Nations traditions 384 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 1: have some similarity to the Gin, particularly if we if 385 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:48,399 Speaker 1: we were to look at them in a sort of 386 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:52,720 Speaker 1: in their pre Islamic form as these sort of intermediary 387 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:58,240 Speaker 1: entity between the sort of celestial world and human world, 388 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:02,159 Speaker 1: particularly if we see them as nature spirits, uh and 389 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 1: not just sort of infernal, then yes, there's a lot 390 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:07,720 Speaker 1: of sort of there's a lot of commonality. I wouldn't 391 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 1: say they map out exactly, uh, and there's some very 392 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 1: clear differences, but I would say that they're mostly you 393 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:20,439 Speaker 1: can find similar traditions almost globally. Um. For example, when 394 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 1: I was talking about, um, the house gym that that 395 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 1: exists in leaving offerings of milk, that's found in Slavic countries, 396 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:34,160 Speaker 1: that's found in Russia, that's found in northern Europe. Uh, 397 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 1: this idea of a house spirit or house help that 398 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 1: you can work with, and you find similar amongst even 399 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 1: in South America. There are some good traditions amongst the 400 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:51,440 Speaker 1: indigenous populations in Brazil of a certain type of fiery 401 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:55,880 Speaker 1: serpentine land spirits. And they sound when you discussed them, 402 00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 1: when you're kind of dissect that they sound very much 403 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,159 Speaker 1: like gin. So there are a lot of kind of 404 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 1: overlap and and there are a lot of kind of 405 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 1: parallel traditions that uh, someone can look at and go, oh, yeah, 406 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 1: that sounds gin like to me, this sounds like it 407 00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 1: could be a gin um. And you know, there's a 408 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 1: variety of different explanations for one thing, that again, people 409 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:24,399 Speaker 1: wherever they are encountering nature the world. The other in 410 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 1: similar fashions. When you when you said people leaving milk out, 411 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 1: the first thing I thought of was Santa Claus. Maybe. Yeah, 412 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:35,680 Speaker 1: I have no idea that's any connection, right right, it's 413 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 1: a you know that that that whole Santa Clause narrative. 414 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:41,480 Speaker 1: As much as it's commercialized and you know, kind of 415 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:44,399 Speaker 1: a made up almost a certain extent, uh, you know, 416 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:49,360 Speaker 1: corporate holiday, it has much older folklore roots. The idea 417 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:52,119 Speaker 1: of leaving out some type of offering, and it was 418 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 1: always either sweets or milk m to goodly spirits of 419 00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:01,720 Speaker 1: some sort or to appease spirits. Sound home almost globally. 420 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:04,200 Speaker 1: Oh my god, maybe sand Across the original was that 421 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 1: he's a gin as crazy. We'll be right back after 422 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:12,480 Speaker 1: the short break. I want to ask you about something 423 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 1: I thought. It's interesting I and it just seems like 424 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:18,720 Speaker 1: a very common experience, and of course it could be 425 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 1: attributed to two different things rather than gin. But my 426 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:24,760 Speaker 1: own husband has had this experience and I know a 427 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:29,120 Speaker 1: number of men who have said they've had this experience where, um, 428 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:32,600 Speaker 1: it sounds like sleep paralysis. They wake up, they're paralyzed. 429 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:37,600 Speaker 1: They sense or see or feel this presence on top 430 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,159 Speaker 1: of them, either pinning them down, holding them around the 431 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,280 Speaker 1: throat and things. And it seems like if a female, 432 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:45,680 Speaker 1: like for some reason, the sense is that this is 433 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:49,439 Speaker 1: a female entity. Can you talk a little bit about that, 434 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:51,879 Speaker 1: Like what is I don't know if it's just me, 435 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 1: if like I just happen to know like four or 436 00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:55,680 Speaker 1: five people who have similar experiences. But it seems like 437 00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:59,159 Speaker 1: is that the sleep straight up sleep paralysis or what 438 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:03,400 Speaker 1: do you think? Well, it's interesting is that the experience 439 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:08,320 Speaker 1: of sleep paralysis, uh, you know in psychology is almost 440 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:13,879 Speaker 1: uh universally found within gin lore. And one it tells 441 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 1: off that you know, ancient people are trying to make 442 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:20,159 Speaker 1: sense of whatever their experience fundamentally is, um, and that 443 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 1: we've been experiencing sleep replixes sent time immemorial. Um. I 444 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 1: mean we can go all the way back to the 445 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:30,440 Speaker 1: Mesopotamian and the language about the litlit to these kind 446 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:37,159 Speaker 1: of female spirits that cause nightly emissions that cause paralysis. Um, 447 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:40,240 Speaker 1: you know, they they've been that story and that narrative 448 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 1: has been in folklore for ages. The gin also are 449 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:47,400 Speaker 1: associated with it, and the gin um have this kind 450 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 1: of connection with the night terrors that waking up that 451 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,040 Speaker 1: in that in that state of trying up just nightmares, 452 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:57,800 Speaker 1: but true night terrors and sleep paralysis. Uh. And it 453 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:01,200 Speaker 1: is often associated with female female gin and there is 454 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:03,199 Speaker 1: a sort of kind of gendered analysis that could be 455 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 1: done there. Why is it a female? But there it's 456 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 1: interesting because the gin that are said to cause those 457 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:13,880 Speaker 1: sort of night terrors out heroize one kind of famous 458 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:17,800 Speaker 1: a gen that does that. Haraja is another very famous 459 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 1: gin that's associated with a sleep paralysis um that they 460 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:26,439 Speaker 1: are female and they're simultaneous considered as terrifying and seductive. 461 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:31,120 Speaker 1: They have kind of this bose quality to them um. 462 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,880 Speaker 1: And then other instances they are they're not even gendered. 463 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:36,119 Speaker 1: They're simply seen a sort of shadowy figures, which is 464 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:39,199 Speaker 1: another very common way that the gin are described. If 465 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:42,399 Speaker 1: they're not described in sort of very explicitly monstrous or 466 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:46,879 Speaker 1: animal like terms, they're just described as shadows. Uh. And 467 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:50,240 Speaker 1: so so for a lot of people that sleep paralysis experience, 468 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,399 Speaker 1: which involved the inability to move in the scene. You know, 469 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 1: this kind of visitation by the shadowy figure is seen 470 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,439 Speaker 1: as a gin phenomenon. And there's some really interesting and 471 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:03,959 Speaker 1: cool that's being done by anthropologists and psychologists who are 472 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:08,360 Speaker 1: kind of exploring the intersection there between mental health between 473 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:12,879 Speaker 1: you know, something very natural, but the narrative, sort of 474 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 1: ethnographic narrative. And also people tell about well, I had 475 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,160 Speaker 1: this experience and then I recited that I don't see 476 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,399 Speaker 1: and it lifted off of me. I was able just 477 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:26,359 Speaker 1: to move again. There's some really kind of interesting work 478 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 1: that's just starting to be done on the in that arena, 479 00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 1: but very comment so um, I'd have to look up 480 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:37,119 Speaker 1: the names that there's a couple of people, uh that 481 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:41,560 Speaker 1: I've come across whose works are really really good and 482 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 1: they're based mostly from the correct me in West African 483 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:49,680 Speaker 1: ethnographic work. Oh no, no, I think it's East African. Yeah, 484 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:54,680 Speaker 1: I'm it's East African ethnographic work and it involved a 485 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 1: mixture of mental health analysis combined with ethnographic looks and 486 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 1: the the article and I can find it intended to 487 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:09,600 Speaker 1: be interested um interviewing women healers who deals specifically with 488 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:13,840 Speaker 1: night terrors and how how they deal with those night 489 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,960 Speaker 1: terrors and the kind of medicine, the natural remedies that 490 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 1: they prescribe. Um. And it's a really really interesting kind 491 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:23,880 Speaker 1: of work, and it is growing. Uh and and there's 492 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:27,000 Speaker 1: a lot of kind of exploration of the components of health, 493 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:32,240 Speaker 1: mental health, psychology, and you know, religion and esotery or 494 00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 1: folk religion will say, uh and and I think the 495 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 1: gin and night terror is right dead in the center 496 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 1: of that. Yeah, I mean it is. I mean, you know, 497 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:44,280 Speaker 1: I'm sure we've all experienced this where you have, especially 498 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 1: with older folks, but back home, there are times when 499 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 1: you know that somebody clearly has mental health issues or 500 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:53,719 Speaker 1: they need some kind of psychological or psychiatric diagnosis and assistance, 501 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,000 Speaker 1: but the family and says, no, it's a gin, it's 502 00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,520 Speaker 1: a gin possession or you know, and for that reason, 503 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:02,640 Speaker 1: you know, there are people who don't get maybe the 504 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:07,120 Speaker 1: help that they need. Um yea. And so it's I mean, 505 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:10,280 Speaker 1: that's that has to be really difficult, like as a 506 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:13,520 Speaker 1: line to try to I mean, I guess where I 507 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,400 Speaker 1: have fallen on that when I have encountered that personally, 508 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,080 Speaker 1: what the people I know is for me to say, okay, 509 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:22,280 Speaker 1: it's like totally do the Gin exorcism, but also like 510 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:24,400 Speaker 1: just try both, like do everything at the same time, 511 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:28,400 Speaker 1: Like why does why why take your chances? Um? But 512 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:32,720 Speaker 1: I don't know if that's just if it's a shame reaction, 513 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:35,720 Speaker 1: like we would prefer to think of our loved one 514 00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:40,520 Speaker 1: as being possessed then being mentally ill. I'm not quite sure. Yeah, 515 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:43,080 Speaker 1: I think I think the discourse of Shane plays it 516 00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:47,320 Speaker 1: plays a big rule there um as well. I think, um, 517 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:52,320 Speaker 1: there's a there's certainly some sort of language about well, 518 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:56,760 Speaker 1: this isn't normative behavior, therefore it must be attributed to 519 00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 1: something expernal um. And so I think that there is 520 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 1: there's a sort of space there where Shane plays a 521 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,120 Speaker 1: big role. Uh, that there's a way of kind of 522 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:10,280 Speaker 1: you know, deflecting, Okay, this is this person isn't ill, 523 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 1: this person is just dealing with the gin. Yes, we 524 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,680 Speaker 1: resolve that everything can go back to normal. Um. And 525 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 1: so I think that the there's definitely something there. And 526 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:23,520 Speaker 1: but there's also really great work being done by mental 527 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 1: health professionals in the Muslim community to help kind of 528 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,360 Speaker 1: push back on the stigmas of mean mental health and 529 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 1: and kind of give people the language, the vocal they 530 00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 1: need to address, you know, their experiences. Um you mentioned, uh, 531 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 1: you know, the gender issue. I mean, do we know 532 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,720 Speaker 1: for sure from or what do we from? What we know? 533 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:48,520 Speaker 1: Do we know for sure that gin are like human 534 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:51,960 Speaker 1: beings like you know, have kind of you know, specific 535 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:54,680 Speaker 1: like male feme. Could there not be three or four 536 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:56,360 Speaker 1: or fire or other kinds of genders that we don't 537 00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:59,320 Speaker 1: know about in the gen world, Well, the gin are 538 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:03,280 Speaker 1: are just arrived as shape shifters, and so a male 539 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:06,440 Speaker 1: Jin are also female gin and female general also male gym. More, 540 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:09,120 Speaker 1: we are told that they have families and they have children, 541 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:13,600 Speaker 1: and they obviously copulate, and they obviously uh you know, reproduce. 542 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:20,320 Speaker 1: But they're they're accurately description non binary, and they really 543 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,480 Speaker 1: kind of shift all over the place. There's very famous 544 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:27,160 Speaker 1: examples and even within the written lore itself of Jin 545 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 1: being referred to sometimes as males, sometimes like females. Sometimes 546 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:34,040 Speaker 1: it's just we don't know. Um. I mean May Moon 547 00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:37,960 Speaker 1: is a very famous Jennings of Jin king associated with Saturday. 548 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:41,680 Speaker 1: But in North Africa he's Maimuna. He's a female Gin. 549 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:43,960 Speaker 1: Now some go, well that's his that's his sister, and 550 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:48,400 Speaker 1: ithers gonna know that's him. He's both he simultaneously and 551 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:51,880 Speaker 1: Jim King and a Jin queen uh. And you know, 552 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:55,080 Speaker 1: it depends on which day you get him. Uh. And 553 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:59,160 Speaker 1: so they kind of fallen and there's much more nebulous abstract. 554 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:03,120 Speaker 1: While they're very clearly certain gendered anxieties about the GIN, 555 00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:06,440 Speaker 1: and you can certainly see the sort of projections of 556 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:11,080 Speaker 1: male authors in particular on the GIN on the whole, 557 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:14,200 Speaker 1: Lure is actually for more nebulous and for more kind 558 00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:17,480 Speaker 1: of diverse, that Gin do shape shift, that GIN do 559 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,720 Speaker 1: have kind of multiple genders there. And then there's even 560 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:23,760 Speaker 1: Lure that's that's even you know, sort of weird ablis 561 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:28,600 Speaker 1: the you know, Islamic concept of the devil is said 562 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:33,120 Speaker 1: to have both genitals. So there's this kind of fascinating 563 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:36,440 Speaker 1: discussion about gender that's being happened with the GIN, and 564 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:40,360 Speaker 1: they exist kind of in this really nebulous state. So 565 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:43,000 Speaker 1: I think it's pretty accurate to say that that in 566 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:46,760 Speaker 1: the kind of contemporary terms, they're they're non binary. There 567 00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:51,240 Speaker 1: aren't as fixed in in gender as we might imagine 568 00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:54,600 Speaker 1: them degree or even in terms of sexuality. They're kind 569 00:33:54,640 --> 00:34:01,200 Speaker 1: of their own thing um, reflecting a sort of diverse experience, 570 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:05,800 Speaker 1: but they they have been known to fall in love 571 00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:10,920 Speaker 1: with humans, to pursue sexual involvement with human beings. UM. 572 00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:15,160 Speaker 1: I have one friend who you know, according to her 573 00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:19,080 Speaker 1: and I, she is incredibly competent and smart and reliable 574 00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:20,839 Speaker 1: and trustworthy, and I have no reason not to believe her. 575 00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:26,480 Speaker 1: Four years apparently was just some a gin was obsessed 576 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:29,040 Speaker 1: with her and just followed her from place to place 577 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:33,800 Speaker 1: to place, and she had some terrifying experiences, um, and 578 00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:37,920 Speaker 1: made it very difficult for I mean, I don't know 579 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:39,520 Speaker 1: if it made she thinks it made it difficult for 580 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:41,400 Speaker 1: her to get married. She eventually get married and I 581 00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:43,960 Speaker 1: think was rid of the gin. But that was the 582 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:47,040 Speaker 1: first time I had heard of anything like that. UM. 583 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:50,640 Speaker 1: But I noticed, I think when you did an am 584 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,759 Speaker 1: a on your Twitter, there's some one of the women 585 00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:57,120 Speaker 1: who responded said something about, you know what happens of 586 00:34:57,160 --> 00:34:59,000 Speaker 1: the gin follows you around, Like how do you get 587 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:01,319 Speaker 1: rid of that? So it just it seems like those 588 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:06,040 Speaker 1: stories are not so uncommon, that yeah, gin can fall 589 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:09,400 Speaker 1: for you and get obsessed with you and totally I 590 00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:11,960 Speaker 1: mean one of the main kind of ways that they interact, 591 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:13,800 Speaker 1: and they did a threat on on the kind of 592 00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:18,120 Speaker 1: interaction with humans. Is the most popular one is the dissertation. Right, 593 00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:20,839 Speaker 1: they just kind of show up, uh, And then that's 594 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:23,799 Speaker 1: kind of you know, in the sort of lure as 595 00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:25,320 Speaker 1: well as in the kind of interviews that you have 596 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:27,879 Speaker 1: with people, though it's just mostly an act of curiosity, 597 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:29,719 Speaker 1: that kind of showing up and they're kind of looking around. 598 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,520 Speaker 1: Possession is another one that you'll find, but just as 599 00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 1: equally common as as love. Now there's some of those 600 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:40,560 Speaker 1: are complicated by stories of abduction, and it talks about 601 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:42,640 Speaker 1: that the gin falls in love with a person and 602 00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:46,600 Speaker 1: therefore they're abducted into the gin would uh that that 603 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:51,000 Speaker 1: there's language around that, but there's also instances of them 604 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:53,600 Speaker 1: just kind of stalking. So that becomes a very kind 605 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:58,920 Speaker 1: of common motif amongst certain groups, that the gin will 606 00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:01,560 Speaker 1: fall in love and they become obsessed with the person, 607 00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:04,319 Speaker 1: and then they'll just kind of follow follow that person 608 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:09,160 Speaker 1: around throughout their lives. This can be described by people 609 00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:13,600 Speaker 1: as an intrusive experience, as one that is disruptive and destructive, 610 00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:17,200 Speaker 1: often explaining this is why I can't get married because 611 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:19,440 Speaker 1: as a gym that's been following around as you as 612 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:23,120 Speaker 1: your friends said, that's actually not uncommon. We do hear 613 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:25,759 Speaker 1: that quite a bit. Um. In other instances, it's not 614 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:30,319 Speaker 1: always disruptive. Sometimes it can be positive. For example, kind 615 00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:34,560 Speaker 1: of the oldest case of this is a woman that 616 00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:38,359 Speaker 1: we have from from a narration that indicates that Um 617 00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:41,520 Speaker 1: male Jim had fallen in love with her, I mean 618 00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:45,360 Speaker 1: followed her around, and in turn for his affection, he 619 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:50,120 Speaker 1: taught her medicine, he gave her skill certain skills. So 620 00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:53,239 Speaker 1: it's a kind of complicated relationship that can be disruptive, 621 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:56,640 Speaker 1: it can be intrusive, uh, and that other instances it 622 00:36:56,719 --> 00:37:00,399 Speaker 1: can be more positively, for example, in Indonesia Malaysia, those 623 00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:03,359 Speaker 1: relationships can be seen a sort of more positive light. 624 00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:05,440 Speaker 1: But if a jingles in love with you, that's a 625 00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:08,000 Speaker 1: way of developing a sort of hidden skill, gaining a 626 00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:12,400 Speaker 1: secret knowledge that you might be inclined towards, certainly shamanic 627 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:16,680 Speaker 1: healing practices. UM. It's similarly, even the abduction stories can 628 00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:21,359 Speaker 1: sometimes be told in a formal positive light when individual 629 00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:24,960 Speaker 1: indicating that, oh, you know, her son had been taken 630 00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:27,560 Speaker 1: by a female jin, but he was happily married and 631 00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:31,919 Speaker 1: had kids off in the gin world, So there's there's 632 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:35,000 Speaker 1: a sort of the stories. They're very but it is 633 00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:37,920 Speaker 1: a common experience. It's idea, but I wouldn't say like 634 00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:41,239 Speaker 1: everybody's had, but it's certainly more common than people might think. 635 00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:44,400 Speaker 1: The idea but jin falling in love and then you know, 636 00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:48,520 Speaker 1: following around that is a common story, folklore, narration, and 637 00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:51,480 Speaker 1: for some people a very real experience for them. I 638 00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:55,759 Speaker 1: did notice that you commented on a tweet by this 639 00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:58,480 Speaker 1: gentleman I think he calls himself Dawa Man or something 640 00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:00,840 Speaker 1: where this like a clear clip of him giving a 641 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:03,520 Speaker 1: talk saying, you know, sisters don't go outside looking beautiful 642 00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:07,840 Speaker 1: because um, yeah, your reaction was kind of like, you know, 643 00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:11,920 Speaker 1: but but in essence, wasn't he kind of right then? 644 00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:13,840 Speaker 1: I mean, like in that sense or what did you find? 645 00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:17,320 Speaker 1: What was off putting about that for you? So the 646 00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:21,200 Speaker 1: issue is that there's always going to be within folklore 647 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:25,800 Speaker 1: components of it that regulate behavior, that regulate people's actions, 648 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:29,680 Speaker 1: And that's old, It's always existed. There's no denial of 649 00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:33,520 Speaker 1: the fact um that that that idea of all you 650 00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:35,359 Speaker 1: need to cover yourself up with the gin are going 651 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:38,040 Speaker 1: to fall in love with you, That that's not unique 652 00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:40,759 Speaker 1: to him. My You know, his history has always been 653 00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:46,880 Speaker 1: quite repugnant and familiar with in British Muslim circle. Um. 654 00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:49,120 Speaker 1: But setting that aside, that that is an old mare 655 00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:52,560 Speaker 1: and that's an old concept, it's not a new concept, um. 656 00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:56,440 Speaker 1: And we've had people who made mention of it, other 657 00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:59,880 Speaker 1: people who have disputed, who pushed back on it. Uh. 658 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:03,640 Speaker 1: I think that that particular approach is problematic for a 659 00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:08,080 Speaker 1: variety of different reasons. First, because I think that what 660 00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:10,920 Speaker 1: the Gin offer are kind of a variety of different 661 00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:13,640 Speaker 1: things that I mentioned this is that first, there's an 662 00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:15,839 Speaker 1: academic approach of the Gin. It's a really great way 663 00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:19,520 Speaker 1: of understanding of the way in which Islam has spread 664 00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:23,279 Speaker 1: and with which Islam has localized. For people who are 665 00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:26,640 Speaker 1: more mystically inclined, or who are more inclined towards spirituality, 666 00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:29,840 Speaker 1: the GIN offer an opportunity to explore the complexities of 667 00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:33,040 Speaker 1: human of the human psyche, but also to experience the 668 00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:36,920 Speaker 1: numerals that force that is not us out there, so 669 00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:39,640 Speaker 1: to speak. And for the faithful, it's a way of 670 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:44,680 Speaker 1: understanding the sort of complex cosmology, it's very beautiful cosmology 671 00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:47,759 Speaker 1: that is at the heart of Islam. Um. All of that, 672 00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:50,960 Speaker 1: I think is great and beautiful aspect of the gin. 673 00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:54,200 Speaker 1: But I think once we start falling into the category 674 00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:59,600 Speaker 1: of sort of fear mongering or or regulating behavior, then 675 00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:02,879 Speaker 1: I think it can be a problem. Uh. And there's 676 00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:05,759 Speaker 1: no doubt that a great deal of gin lore can 677 00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:07,800 Speaker 1: be a trip can be seen as a sort of 678 00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:13,560 Speaker 1: superstitious or fear oriented or designed to regulate behaviors. Don't 679 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:16,920 Speaker 1: do this and don't do that. Um. And I recognize them, 680 00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:21,600 Speaker 1: and there's there. They're worthwhile, uh, you know, exploring and examining. 681 00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:24,640 Speaker 1: I'm just not very comfortable with the sort of prescriptive 682 00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:26,919 Speaker 1: component of this. Hey, women, you should do this because 683 00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:29,280 Speaker 1: the gen are going to do that. That is always, 684 00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:33,920 Speaker 1: to me sounds far more predatory than anything else, and 685 00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:37,360 Speaker 1: it is almost always by some guy who's telling women 686 00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:41,440 Speaker 1: how to live their lives. And it's that The issue 687 00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:43,880 Speaker 1: for me is that there is a sort of prendation 688 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:48,080 Speaker 1: on fear and using that fear, exploiting that feeling to 689 00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:51,719 Speaker 1: regulate women's bodies that I think should be resisted, you know. 690 00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:54,800 Speaker 1: And I'm also guessing if if a ginn wants to 691 00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:56,320 Speaker 1: see what he looks like, what you look like, he 692 00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:57,960 Speaker 1: can I mean, he doesn't have to wait for you 693 00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:02,800 Speaker 1: to step onto the street. You're right. So one of 694 00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:05,080 Speaker 1: the things that that that's even within the sort of 695 00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:08,080 Speaker 1: logics of the lower itself, it doesn't quite make sense 696 00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:10,360 Speaker 1: the people who who have said it. And again this 697 00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:13,560 Speaker 1: is not unique to Della man development. This has been going, 698 00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:17,200 Speaker 1: you know, thousands, hundreds of years. We've had medieval writers 699 00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:19,799 Speaker 1: say with all sorts of people. But it doesn't quite 700 00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:23,480 Speaker 1: fit within its own logics because the gin lived within 701 00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:26,200 Speaker 1: your house as well, So are you going to are 702 00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:28,399 Speaker 1: you going to be veiled in your own home? They're 703 00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:30,719 Speaker 1: gonna see you. The idea that if you have to 704 00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:35,320 Speaker 1: walk out veiled constantly really is to constantly on guard 705 00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:38,799 Speaker 1: that the Gin might accidentally see you doesn't quite fit 706 00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:43,080 Speaker 1: because one, they live within your house too, They're invisible, 707 00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:45,240 Speaker 1: Therefore they're going to see you at some point or another. 708 00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:48,760 Speaker 1: And three were told that they have various abilities and powers. 709 00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:50,600 Speaker 1: And one that's so if there's an entity that has 710 00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:53,680 Speaker 1: all these abilities and powers and perhaps can almost practically 711 00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:57,200 Speaker 1: read the human mind, um, I doubt that. You know, 712 00:41:57,560 --> 00:41:59,080 Speaker 1: they're not waiting for a glimpse of your head job 713 00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:01,520 Speaker 1: to fly off the side. Yeah, they're they're they're not 714 00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:05,960 Speaker 1: waiting for ankle glimpses or yet. Okay, speaking of the 715 00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:07,800 Speaker 1: gin that live in your house, there's one category of 716 00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:12,560 Speaker 1: gin and then I'm kind of fascinated with that. I 717 00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:14,440 Speaker 1: guess I don't quite understand where they fall on the 718 00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:20,960 Speaker 1: spectrum of um innocuous too, maybe problematic. And that is 719 00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:23,520 Speaker 1: the gin that they say that that the tradition is 720 00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:27,080 Speaker 1: that every person is assigned one gin, Like there's one gin? 721 00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:29,960 Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about that whole story, 722 00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:33,080 Speaker 1: like what why do they exist? And another places I've 723 00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:34,920 Speaker 1: read that maybe it's not a gin, maybe it's some 724 00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:37,200 Speaker 1: kind of a double id get, Like it's a little 725 00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:41,480 Speaker 1: confusing to me. Yeah. Yeah, So there's Amazon or the 726 00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:44,880 Speaker 1: Koeen as it's known in Arabic is that it's known 727 00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:48,520 Speaker 1: as the attending gym. The gym is associated with an individual. 728 00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:51,360 Speaker 1: They're born with it and may they have it throughout 729 00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:55,319 Speaker 1: their life. On the whole, there's generally seen, I think 730 00:42:55,400 --> 00:43:00,600 Speaker 1: within traditional Orthodox Aslamic approaches as a tempting force. That 731 00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:04,799 Speaker 1: they're sort of force that is aimed attempting individuals are 732 00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:09,839 Speaker 1: the associated with doubt, they're associated with anxiety, they're associated 733 00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:12,279 Speaker 1: kind of with as as a force that that that 734 00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:17,560 Speaker 1: that gets us to stumble all and counteracted by uh, 735 00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:21,120 Speaker 1: you know, for the angels that are meant the guard 736 00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:23,360 Speaker 1: in the people that keep them from doing us. And 737 00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:26,439 Speaker 1: there's this idea that they's a sort of balanced there 738 00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:30,719 Speaker 1: between this gin and the angels around us, with us 739 00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:35,279 Speaker 1: with heavily leaning towards the angelic sub But when you 740 00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:37,640 Speaker 1: go down to the sort of folklore component that is 741 00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:42,000 Speaker 1: outside the actual orthodoxy, what people are saying, what ordinary 742 00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:44,960 Speaker 1: people believe, that's where it gets a little bit complicated. 743 00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:48,719 Speaker 1: The Korean sometimes is seeing not just as a gin, 744 00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:51,800 Speaker 1: but has a dopple ganger as a sort of shadows 745 00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:54,560 Speaker 1: sells to a certain extenter of a shadow that follows 746 00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:57,640 Speaker 1: us throughout life, and in that instance it's also seen 747 00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:00,840 Speaker 1: as a bit disruptive. But there are other lower components 748 00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:04,359 Speaker 1: to it, generally associated with esoterism, in which the gin 749 00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:08,440 Speaker 1: is seen as a sort of alchemical process. That is 750 00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:12,239 Speaker 1: that you'll goal in life is to take this gin 751 00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:16,919 Speaker 1: that begins at birth as a sort of untamed gin 752 00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:20,839 Speaker 1: and tamed them to become an ally and once you've 753 00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:24,400 Speaker 1: done that, you've reached a sort of spiritual potential. rEFInd 754 00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:28,279 Speaker 1: this within certain is esoteric circles. And then this is 755 00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:31,320 Speaker 1: taken even further and some occult practices in which the 756 00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:34,560 Speaker 1: Korean is seeing not just as an attending gin, but 757 00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:37,800 Speaker 1: as a familiar spirit in which you can work with 758 00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:41,400 Speaker 1: in order to achieve certain magical effect, its creation of 759 00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:46,360 Speaker 1: talismans or whatnot. So there's a sort of diverse, complicated 760 00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:50,560 Speaker 1: approach to the Korean, but traditionally it is seen within 761 00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:54,240 Speaker 1: the sort of orthodox approach within Islam as attempting force, 762 00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:56,799 Speaker 1: as a as a force that exists in your life 763 00:44:57,200 --> 00:44:59,839 Speaker 1: to tempt you, as a force that exists in your life, 764 00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:03,239 Speaker 1: as a sort of negative side to you or sort 765 00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:06,400 Speaker 1: of dark shadow to you. You know. It almost um 766 00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:09,240 Speaker 1: it brings to mind that image of like the person 767 00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:11,400 Speaker 1: with a double on one shoulder and needs all the 768 00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:15,399 Speaker 1: other shoulder. I guess it's like connected to that, Yeah, yeah, 769 00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:18,959 Speaker 1: very much so. Whereas in the Islamic tradition, the idea 770 00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:23,040 Speaker 1: that you have multiple angels, uh, you know, working on 771 00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:26,160 Speaker 1: your side with one Korean that is that is not 772 00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:29,000 Speaker 1: you know, but definitely that sort of the idea of 773 00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:33,640 Speaker 1: the devil and angel right there. So when the person dies, 774 00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:37,320 Speaker 1: does that jin die yes. So the idea is that 775 00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:41,719 Speaker 1: generally the gin is associated with that person's life. Once 776 00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:45,080 Speaker 1: that person dies, the Korean dies as well. But again 777 00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:49,120 Speaker 1: it gets messy and complicated and sometimes contradictory. There are 778 00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:52,799 Speaker 1: stories of how the Korean continues on after because Jin 779 00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:56,040 Speaker 1: has such long lifespan, so there is some debate from 780 00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:58,920 Speaker 1: the whole most most kind of narrations indicate that the 781 00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:02,440 Speaker 1: gin also dies, that it is intimately tied to the 782 00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:06,080 Speaker 1: human life, and so too is its strength, age, etcetera. 783 00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:09,480 Speaker 1: The more pious a person is, the weaker the Krena is. 784 00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:11,839 Speaker 1: That doesn't have much of an influence, it's just kind 785 00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:15,279 Speaker 1: of a shadow that exists there. The more you know, 786 00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:18,719 Speaker 1: rebellious a person is, and the stronger the Korena is. 787 00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:22,240 Speaker 1: So it is kind of intimately tied to our personal 788 00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:25,360 Speaker 1: lives or experiences or destinies, whatever you want to call it. 789 00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:29,960 Speaker 1: I saw a tweet that I think you're responding to somebody. 790 00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:32,160 Speaker 1: Somebody asked like, how how can they died? Can they 791 00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:34,359 Speaker 1: be killed? And you said, well, it seems like Jin 792 00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:36,279 Speaker 1: mostly died by accident. Can you talk a little bit 793 00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:40,520 Speaker 1: about that. Yeah, So the ginns are this is kind 794 00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:41,800 Speaker 1: of one of the again one of the kind of 795 00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:45,799 Speaker 1: interesting components of how kind of um you know, contradictory 796 00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:48,800 Speaker 1: some of the information sometimes can be, but also speaks 797 00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:51,480 Speaker 1: of a kind of vast diversion creative stories that are 798 00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:54,320 Speaker 1: told on one end, which told that the Gin are ancient, 799 00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:57,480 Speaker 1: that they live thousands and thousands of years, that they 800 00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:01,759 Speaker 1: are immensely strong and mensely powerful, and the very few 801 00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:06,600 Speaker 1: things can kind of hurt them, classically salt iron things 802 00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:10,080 Speaker 1: like that. Um. But on the other instance, we have 803 00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:12,319 Speaker 1: all sorts of stories to talk about. You know, someone 804 00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:16,719 Speaker 1: spat their seed into a hole and it accidentally killed 805 00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:20,920 Speaker 1: the gin, or they sat rock into a cavern has 806 00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:24,280 Speaker 1: accidentally killed the gin. So for whatever reason, it seems 807 00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:28,279 Speaker 1: like they're constantly getting killed accidentally, and that leads to 808 00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:31,759 Speaker 1: all sorts of problems. That's when the Gin are offended, uh, 809 00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:36,360 Speaker 1: and then they they wreak their their vengeance upon that person, 810 00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:39,960 Speaker 1: but through possession, abduction, et cetera. The other common way 811 00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:42,279 Speaker 1: in which that they're killed is an animal form, so 812 00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:45,200 Speaker 1: the stories of hunting. But the gin took on a 813 00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:47,560 Speaker 1: snake form and go on the head that snake, and 814 00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:50,640 Speaker 1: then the cousin gin shows up and you killed my cousin. 815 00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:54,000 Speaker 1: So that's the other sort of aspect to it, is 816 00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:57,400 Speaker 1: that either they're killed accidentally or they're killed an animal form. 817 00:47:57,719 --> 00:48:00,680 Speaker 1: Those are the kind of two common ways that we 818 00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:03,440 Speaker 1: hear about their gaps, other than that they're supposed to 819 00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:07,640 Speaker 1: be and thensally strong, long lives, so they're very supposed 820 00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:10,319 Speaker 1: to be very difficult to kill. But apparently when you're 821 00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:15,040 Speaker 1: not intending to, you can kill a GM. So let 822 00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:19,359 Speaker 1: me see this. Um, you mentioned how in in something 823 00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:22,680 Speaker 1: like a North African tradition, there's like a tradition of 824 00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:27,480 Speaker 1: like actually inviting a summoning like possession. I've read something 825 00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:29,640 Speaker 1: about like a gin cannot enter your home until you 826 00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:32,160 Speaker 1: invite it? Am I thinking about a vampire? Maybe? I am? Actually, 827 00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:36,440 Speaker 1: but let me do this. Have you ever, like what 828 00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:38,960 Speaker 1: do you know about the summoning like gin? Like? Have 829 00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:41,520 Speaker 1: you are they? Is it different in different cultures how 830 00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:43,680 Speaker 1: it's done? Is there like kind of an orthodox way 831 00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:47,000 Speaker 1: to do it? I know it's I know it's considered prohibited, 832 00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:52,200 Speaker 1: it's not considered permissible, right yeah, yeah, yeah, the gin 833 00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:55,080 Speaker 1: there's a variety of different way There is sort of 834 00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:59,640 Speaker 1: a textual tradition that's found, Uh, this is would be 835 00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:02,000 Speaker 1: I guess the best way to approach it would be 836 00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:04,839 Speaker 1: or call it would be ceremonial. So there's a sort 837 00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:07,719 Speaker 1: of approach into which the gin can be summoned, and 838 00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:11,439 Speaker 1: it generally involves a certain formula, knowing the gin the name, 839 00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:17,680 Speaker 1: having some type of purification ritual that's done beforehand, lots 840 00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:21,719 Speaker 1: of incense, smoke. One author talks about how you have 841 00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:25,640 Speaker 1: to burn a special type of incense uh, and then 842 00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:28,000 Speaker 1: you can use that and the gin will kind of 843 00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:31,480 Speaker 1: appear through the smoke there. Uh. And that that's sounding 844 00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:35,360 Speaker 1: sort of magical operations of what not within these medieval texts. 845 00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:39,480 Speaker 1: That's one approach, and that seems to be the kind 846 00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:45,640 Speaker 1: of common method found within I would say literary circles 847 00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:48,960 Speaker 1: and sort of scholarly circles. That that's one way to 848 00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:53,839 Speaker 1: do it. But there is a great deal of variation locally, uh, 849 00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:57,399 Speaker 1: And so there are more sort of possession oriented ways 850 00:49:57,520 --> 00:50:00,719 Speaker 1: rather than summoning a gin, the gin can be invoked 851 00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:04,560 Speaker 1: that is brought inside a person uh. And then through 852 00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:09,560 Speaker 1: the possession speak to people, engage with people, give you know, 853 00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:13,640 Speaker 1: foretell the future, things like that, and that's found more 854 00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:18,520 Speaker 1: commonly in North Africa. There's bizarre rituals in Egypt which 855 00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:23,120 Speaker 1: involved dancing and possession. Found from Egypt to Sadan, there 856 00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:27,400 Speaker 1: are the Buffer rituals and Morocco West Africa that involved 857 00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:32,560 Speaker 1: actually getting possessed uh. And then this very elaborate sort 858 00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:36,719 Speaker 1: of ceremony that is done um. And then there are 859 00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:40,239 Speaker 1: a slightly more kind of shamanic for lack of a 860 00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:44,880 Speaker 1: better word, approaches that we find in Indonesia and Malaysia, 861 00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:48,480 Speaker 1: and which is a sort of symbiotic relationship. The gin 862 00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:52,120 Speaker 1: are and revoked through a sort of pack making deal UH. 863 00:50:52,560 --> 00:50:56,960 Speaker 1: Gin is found or located through a particular you know, 864 00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:01,280 Speaker 1: natural ceremony, going out to a tree, going to a cave, etcetera. 865 00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:04,239 Speaker 1: And a relationship is built like an actual pact is 866 00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:08,120 Speaker 1: signed between the individual, the healer and and the gin, 867 00:51:08,239 --> 00:51:11,040 Speaker 1: and then that gen warps with that healer. So there's 868 00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:15,480 Speaker 1: some great deal of sort of variety and how they're invoked, 869 00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:19,439 Speaker 1: but there is a core sort of operation, if you will, 870 00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:23,680 Speaker 1: written roughly around the medieval era. It's still used by 871 00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:26,960 Speaker 1: some people in which gin can be summoned, gin can 872 00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:31,000 Speaker 1: be brought to manifest themselves. And then there are others 873 00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:33,719 Speaker 1: that say you can't necessarily manifest it, but you can 874 00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:37,000 Speaker 1: certainly invoke the power, since you'll find gin also make 875 00:51:37,120 --> 00:51:41,080 Speaker 1: their appearance in sort of talisman making, the creation of 876 00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:44,000 Speaker 1: sort of magical objects of some sort. All of this 877 00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:49,680 Speaker 1: falls well without or outside Orthodox Slam and is considered 878 00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:53,440 Speaker 1: deeply prohibited by black kind of orthodox religious scholars, but 879 00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:58,920 Speaker 1: as a common feature of popular Islam not always falls 880 00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:02,840 Speaker 1: into the black magic. I was gonna say, yeah, you know, 881 00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:06,080 Speaker 1: some people call black magic, of some practitioners themselves wouldn't 882 00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:09,560 Speaker 1: call it that. For example, the practices in Indonesia are 883 00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:13,600 Speaker 1: seen as healing oriented, but orthodoxis Mom would definitely look 884 00:52:13,640 --> 00:52:15,279 Speaker 1: at it. All of this as a form of a 885 00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:18,960 Speaker 1: form of black magic. Uh, definitely outside what is considered 886 00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:24,000 Speaker 1: permissible within Islam um. And but but there's a great 887 00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:27,399 Speaker 1: episode of folk level and popular level. There's a great 888 00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:31,560 Speaker 1: dealer kind of you know, flexibility there. Uh. And some 889 00:52:31,719 --> 00:52:35,719 Speaker 1: people quite overtly invoked from malicious books is but other 890 00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:38,640 Speaker 1: people see it as as a sort of healing practice. 891 00:52:38,719 --> 00:52:41,560 Speaker 1: And so in some ways it has some parallels with 892 00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:44,520 Speaker 1: We could look at sort of the folk healing practices 893 00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:49,560 Speaker 1: of the Mediterranean, granny magic, kitchen magic, or the sort 894 00:52:49,560 --> 00:52:54,160 Speaker 1: of shamanic practice that we find and wed on North 895 00:52:54,200 --> 00:52:57,000 Speaker 1: America and South America. What can I ask you? What, 896 00:52:57,160 --> 00:52:59,120 Speaker 1: what is like the power dynamic there? Who is the 897 00:52:59,560 --> 00:53:02,080 Speaker 1: who is a charge? And that in those relationships? Is 898 00:53:02,120 --> 00:53:06,279 Speaker 1: it I've read that you know? And and also like 899 00:53:06,400 --> 00:53:08,040 Speaker 1: you know in the story of the creation of Adam 900 00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:13,080 Speaker 1: of course that that man is superior, but go gener powerful. 901 00:53:13,160 --> 00:53:18,800 Speaker 1: So what's the power dynamic here? Yeah? So, um, humans 902 00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:24,160 Speaker 1: are considered superior in Islamic cosmology. Um, but the Gin 903 00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:26,680 Speaker 1: are clearly very powerful in their own sort of way. 904 00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:30,920 Speaker 1: So Orthodox Islam will generally a sort of Orthodox scholarly 905 00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:34,319 Speaker 1: tradition would indicate that any type of relationship between gin 906 00:53:34,440 --> 00:53:37,839 Speaker 1: and humans is a sort of corruption, that the Gin 907 00:53:38,239 --> 00:53:40,640 Speaker 1: is corrupting the human beings. So even if a person 908 00:53:40,719 --> 00:53:44,080 Speaker 1: thinks that they're got this powerful relationship or the upper 909 00:53:44,120 --> 00:53:47,279 Speaker 1: hand of the Gin, the gin is is subverse that 910 00:53:47,360 --> 00:53:49,839 Speaker 1: they're doing some things of which is why a lot 911 00:53:49,880 --> 00:53:52,920 Speaker 1: of these folk practice that involved direct relationships with the 912 00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:57,399 Speaker 1: Gin are seen as not permissible within Orthodox as law. 913 00:53:58,320 --> 00:54:01,840 Speaker 1: Within the sort of folk and popular expression, it's generally 914 00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:05,759 Speaker 1: a far more symbiotic relationship in which the Gin and 915 00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:10,240 Speaker 1: the human are scene as in partnership for some particular function, 916 00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:14,360 Speaker 1: whether it is to heal people or to give oracular advice, 917 00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:17,560 Speaker 1: or to foretell the future or whatnot. It's seems far 918 00:54:17,719 --> 00:54:21,279 Speaker 1: more symbiotic than what orthodox is Slam would it be. 919 00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:25,279 Speaker 1: So there is there's some great there's divergence there in 920 00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:27,719 Speaker 1: terms of the pallodynamics, and I have to wonder that 921 00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:29,920 Speaker 1: you can ask, I have to wonder what is the 922 00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:31,480 Speaker 1: gin getting out of this? I mean, like, you know, 923 00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:33,960 Speaker 1: if they're telling the future for a human being, or 924 00:54:34,200 --> 00:54:39,080 Speaker 1: they're helping heal, helping somebody heal others, what's the gin 925 00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:42,680 Speaker 1: getting at well. Traditionally it said that if the gener 926 00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:46,120 Speaker 1: involved in methical relationship, it's because they are getting something 927 00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:49,000 Speaker 1: generally there in love with that person, or there's an 928 00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:53,520 Speaker 1: ancestral line there, or that they're building a relationship right 929 00:54:53,560 --> 00:54:57,480 Speaker 1: they're working together, there's some type of something that they're 930 00:54:57,520 --> 00:55:01,799 Speaker 1: getting out of it. Again, classically, in sort of an 931 00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:04,600 Speaker 1: orthodox interpretation would see that as what they're getting out 932 00:55:04,640 --> 00:55:06,880 Speaker 1: of it is the ability to just mass with people. 933 00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:10,560 Speaker 1: So there so the argument there is one of the 934 00:55:10,600 --> 00:55:14,120 Speaker 1: reasons why you shouldn't be engaged in these nonpredictable acts 935 00:55:14,200 --> 00:55:17,040 Speaker 1: or non permitted acts is because that no matter what 936 00:55:17,640 --> 00:55:20,680 Speaker 1: you think you're getting out of it, in reality you're 937 00:55:20,760 --> 00:55:23,279 Speaker 1: kind of being screwed over about by the Gin. But 938 00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:27,080 Speaker 1: for people who whoo, who are engaging these kinna foke 939 00:55:27,120 --> 00:55:31,400 Speaker 1: with popular practices, the gin and humans have a relationship 940 00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:33,239 Speaker 1: in which they live side by side in the day 941 00:55:33,280 --> 00:55:36,960 Speaker 1: is mutually beneficial. One of the mutual kind of mutually 942 00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:40,520 Speaker 1: beneficial aspects of it is offerings. So for example, and 943 00:55:40,600 --> 00:55:42,960 Speaker 1: many of these these kind of popular practices that we 944 00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:46,240 Speaker 1: will find, if you're working with the Gin, you're generally 945 00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:49,920 Speaker 1: giving them something back. Milk, candle, Hannah is a common 946 00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:53,440 Speaker 1: offering that is given to the Gin. Various kind of 947 00:55:53,560 --> 00:55:57,880 Speaker 1: things that they get in return, like gifts, um, and 948 00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:00,839 Speaker 1: then in turn they bestow their own it's whatever those are. 949 00:56:02,280 --> 00:56:07,560 Speaker 1: Have you um. Have you ever witnessed an exorcism? I 950 00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:13,360 Speaker 1: have um once. It was an interesting experience. There's a 951 00:56:13,480 --> 00:56:16,440 Speaker 1: very it was. It was a formal exorcism, not like 952 00:56:16,560 --> 00:56:21,440 Speaker 1: a uh sort of emergency, oh someone's been possessed. This 953 00:56:21,600 --> 00:56:27,880 Speaker 1: was in a ceremonial sort of context, and it was 954 00:56:28,040 --> 00:56:31,680 Speaker 1: part of a sort of like if you're still or whatnot, 955 00:56:31,800 --> 00:56:35,280 Speaker 1: you come to this place there's an open air shrine 956 00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:39,279 Speaker 1: in Morocco. Uh. And what you'll do is been the 957 00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:43,000 Speaker 1: mystic or or the saint or the healer or whatnot 958 00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:47,160 Speaker 1: will then perform a sort of a ritual of sorts 959 00:56:47,560 --> 00:56:50,720 Speaker 1: in which you will invoke the gin that is hiding 960 00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:55,440 Speaker 1: within you. There's an element of performance. Music is played, 961 00:56:56,160 --> 00:57:00,239 Speaker 1: songs or song uh, certain incenses or burn and this 962 00:57:00,400 --> 00:57:02,840 Speaker 1: kind of ritual action that it was very kind of 963 00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:05,839 Speaker 1: stylized to a certain extent, which is different from sort 964 00:57:05,920 --> 00:57:09,960 Speaker 1: of other experiences of exorcisms, which are much more kind 965 00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:13,919 Speaker 1: of focused on intervention of some sort of some sort 966 00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:17,000 Speaker 1: uh and they're really kind of intense. This was a 967 00:57:17,080 --> 00:57:22,600 Speaker 1: much more sort of formulaic, stylized approach, almost by the numbers, 968 00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:24,840 Speaker 1: like people with people kind of line up who feel 969 00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:26,960 Speaker 1: like they have something going wrong in their lives, they 970 00:57:27,000 --> 00:57:29,960 Speaker 1: can't get married, they can't whatnot. And then they take 971 00:57:30,040 --> 00:57:32,440 Speaker 1: their turn coming up to this person and they performed 972 00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:36,360 Speaker 1: this exorcism and cleansing. And it involved a bundle of 973 00:57:36,440 --> 00:57:39,680 Speaker 1: herbs that would be rushed and kind of slapped on 974 00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:43,320 Speaker 1: this person. Uh. The person would be the limbs would 975 00:57:43,320 --> 00:57:46,760 Speaker 1: be tied by some type of cloth uh and then 976 00:57:47,320 --> 00:57:50,200 Speaker 1: various forms of waters were sprinkled, and the waters looked 977 00:57:50,200 --> 00:57:52,480 Speaker 1: like they had some type of herbs and then some 978 00:57:52,720 --> 00:57:56,800 Speaker 1: some something other than it wasn't just water. Prayers are recited, 979 00:57:57,120 --> 00:58:01,240 Speaker 1: songs were recited, music was aid, uh, and then the 980 00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:04,320 Speaker 1: person was unbound from the cloth and like, oh you're 981 00:58:04,360 --> 00:58:07,440 Speaker 1: free now. Some of them, some of the people that 982 00:58:07,600 --> 00:58:10,280 Speaker 1: came forward had very like a sort of intense reactions. 983 00:58:10,720 --> 00:58:13,640 Speaker 1: They would struggle against the clock, they would fight, they 984 00:58:13,640 --> 00:58:16,040 Speaker 1: would screen, they show out and others and very sort 985 00:58:16,080 --> 00:58:20,960 Speaker 1: of benign non reaction to what was going on. Um. 986 00:58:21,120 --> 00:58:23,560 Speaker 1: But it was a very stylized experience that I saw. 987 00:58:23,680 --> 00:58:25,880 Speaker 1: But I did I did see this um as part 988 00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:28,880 Speaker 1: of this kind of world travel that I did trying 989 00:58:28,920 --> 00:58:34,160 Speaker 1: to look for gin lore. I've not I've noticed in 990 00:58:34,240 --> 00:58:38,160 Speaker 1: actually including that that little clip from Dala Guy that 991 00:58:38,280 --> 00:58:39,880 Speaker 1: he also says that in the UK seems to be 992 00:58:40,000 --> 00:58:44,000 Speaker 1: full of young young brothers who are like performing extra 993 00:58:44,120 --> 00:58:48,560 Speaker 1: some of them on YouTube. In fact, um it's uh so, 994 00:58:48,800 --> 00:58:51,880 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't do know anybody who does that 995 00:58:52,040 --> 00:58:54,200 Speaker 1: like here out here in your area and on the 996 00:58:54,200 --> 00:58:57,880 Speaker 1: East coast, because I'd love to see that there are 997 00:58:57,960 --> 00:59:01,720 Speaker 1: people that do extra so ism in the United States. 998 00:59:01,800 --> 00:59:05,760 Speaker 1: I'm not sure how open they'd be to being filmed 999 00:59:06,040 --> 00:59:08,720 Speaker 1: or or talked to, but they do exist more often 1000 00:59:08,800 --> 00:59:13,120 Speaker 1: not it's word of mouth and or through a mask. 1001 00:59:13,440 --> 00:59:16,680 Speaker 1: Somebody knows somebody who does this sort of work. Uh. 1002 00:59:16,800 --> 00:59:20,520 Speaker 1: There are specialists of some sort that they see themselves 1003 00:59:20,560 --> 00:59:24,920 Speaker 1: as kind of some sort of spiritual figure. They are 1004 00:59:24,920 --> 00:59:26,720 Speaker 1: either in a mom or shape or on the law 1005 00:59:26,840 --> 00:59:34,240 Speaker 1: or something. They are almost most exclusively male in in 1006 00:59:34,720 --> 00:59:37,440 Speaker 1: these circles. Um. And and they do perform at one 1007 00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:41,520 Speaker 1: particular form of exorcism that was done in the United States. 1008 00:59:41,560 --> 00:59:45,880 Speaker 1: But I saw um was involved in chains, chains that 1009 00:59:46,520 --> 00:59:48,320 Speaker 1: or all that I heard, I didn't actually see this one. 1010 00:59:48,680 --> 00:59:52,280 Speaker 1: The change were being thrown over a person in order 1011 00:59:52,360 --> 00:59:56,200 Speaker 1: to trap the gin, and they repeatedly throwing the change 1012 00:59:56,240 --> 00:59:58,120 Speaker 1: over and over and the person would step out of it. 1013 00:59:58,480 --> 01:00:01,160 Speaker 1: So they do exist. Um. They seem to congregate in 1014 01:00:01,240 --> 01:00:07,240 Speaker 1: New York or Virginia and northern California. They're probably everywhere, um, 1015 01:00:07,320 --> 01:00:09,040 Speaker 1: but those are the kind of the places the people 1016 01:00:09,080 --> 01:00:11,320 Speaker 1: that I've spoken to the big general will come from 1017 01:00:12,160 --> 01:00:15,280 Speaker 1: those kind of three areas. But I think any kind 1018 01:00:15,320 --> 01:00:19,400 Speaker 1: of population of Muslims probably has a few exorcists or 1019 01:00:19,720 --> 01:00:22,720 Speaker 1: exerci who end up who end up having to do 1020 01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:25,080 Speaker 1: it because nobody else is going to do it. You 1021 01:00:25,640 --> 01:00:27,320 Speaker 1: who end up doing that type of stuff. There's a 1022 01:00:27,400 --> 01:00:30,720 Speaker 1: lot of it's also a business there component of there's 1023 01:00:30,720 --> 01:00:34,120 Speaker 1: a financial exchange. Some of them can be quite exploitative, 1024 01:00:34,440 --> 01:00:36,280 Speaker 1: but they do this and they I think they're a 1025 01:00:36,320 --> 01:00:38,840 Speaker 1: little bit more open up in the UK, a little 1026 01:00:38,880 --> 01:00:44,760 Speaker 1: bit more underground. I hope you enjoyed that conversation as 1027 01:00:44,880 --> 01:00:47,760 Speaker 1: much as I did. Now there are as many people 1028 01:00:47,880 --> 01:00:50,400 Speaker 1: in the world with gin stories as there are gin 1029 01:00:51,080 --> 01:00:53,280 Speaker 1: so if you have one you'd like to share, make 1030 01:00:53,320 --> 01:00:55,840 Speaker 1: sure to email it to me at the Hidden Gin 1031 01:00:56,160 --> 01:00:59,760 Speaker 1: at gmail dot com. That's the Hidden Gin th h 1032 01:01:00,600 --> 01:01:03,760 Speaker 1: I D d N d J I n N at 1033 01:01:03,840 --> 01:01:08,480 Speaker 1: gmail dot com. And until next time, remember we are 1034 01:01:08,600 --> 01:01:23,000 Speaker 1: not alone. The Hidden Gin is a production of I 1035 01:01:23,160 --> 01:01:26,760 Speaker 1: Heart Radio and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Mankey. The 1036 01:01:26,840 --> 01:01:30,480 Speaker 1: podcast is written and hosted by Robbiah Chaudry and produced 1037 01:01:30,480 --> 01:01:35,120 Speaker 1: by Miranda Hawkins and Trevor Young, with executive producers Aaron Mankey, 1038 01:01:35,400 --> 01:01:39,640 Speaker 1: Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. Our theme song was created 1039 01:01:39,680 --> 01:01:43,480 Speaker 1: by Patrick Quartets. For more podcasts from i heart Radio, 1040 01:01:44,080 --> 01:01:47,880 Speaker 1: Visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 1041 01:01:48,000 --> 01:01:49,080 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts.