WEBVTT - Romarilyn Ralston on building a more just justice system 0:00:06.880 --> 0:00:10.200 Welcome to Righteous Convictions with Jason Flammer, the podcast where 0:00:10.240 --> 0:00:12.119 I speak with people who see the wrong in the 0:00:12.160 --> 0:00:14.720 world and are driven to make it right. My guest 0:00:14.760 --> 0:00:17.599 today is a woman who spent twenty three years in 0:00:17.680 --> 0:00:21.640 prison and emerged as a social justice champion, a tireless 0:00:21.680 --> 0:00:27.440 fighter for the incarcerated, and a self described abolitionist. I 0:00:27.520 --> 0:00:30.600 think we need to think about abolition a little bit 0:00:30.600 --> 0:00:37.880 more broadly than just closing prisons. The majority of folks 0:00:38.720 --> 0:00:42.479 our abolitionists in some degree. You know, whether they're working 0:00:42.520 --> 0:00:46.599 to dismantle poverty in their lives or cycles the violence 0:00:46.640 --> 0:00:50.199 in their lives. Whatever it is that you're trying to 0:00:50.360 --> 0:00:54.200 dismantle in your life, you are an abolitionist in spirit. 0:00:57.320 --> 0:01:19.840 Right now on Righteous Convictions from moor Lynn Roston. Welcome 0:01:19.840 --> 0:01:23.880 back to Righteous Convictions with Jason Flant. Today's guest is 0:01:24.160 --> 0:01:29.360 Romrlyn Roston. Very very lyrical name, by the way, but 0:01:30.400 --> 0:01:34.240 Marylyn is the executive director of College and Community Fellowship, 0:01:34.800 --> 0:01:36.720 a nonprofit of New York City that helps women and 0:01:36.760 --> 0:01:41.560 families most harmed by mass criminalization gained equitable access to 0:01:41.680 --> 0:01:46.720 opportunity and higher education. And Maryland, first of all, Welcome 0:01:46.959 --> 0:01:50.480 to Righteous convictions. Thank you, Jason, thanks for having me 0:01:50.480 --> 0:01:53.040 on the show right off the Red Eye and she's 0:01:53.240 --> 0:01:57.640 rare to go so um. You know, you are uniquely 0:01:57.840 --> 0:02:03.120 qualified to do the things that you're doing because of 0:02:03.160 --> 0:02:09.040 your own life experience, and I'm excited to hear mostly 0:02:09.080 --> 0:02:12.119 about the things that you're doing. But before we get 0:02:12.120 --> 0:02:15.320 into that, I wanted to know how you became you, 0:02:16.120 --> 0:02:21.119 what happened to start this crazy journey through our car 0:02:21.120 --> 0:02:25.880 sol system for you? And then how did you transform 0:02:26.000 --> 0:02:29.320 yourself and find your I guess I'm going to call 0:02:29.360 --> 0:02:32.680 your true calling. Well, that's a big question. I'm not 0:02:32.720 --> 0:02:34.880 sure if we have a couple of days to talk 0:02:34.919 --> 0:02:41.160 about how I became me and found my true calling. Now, 0:02:41.240 --> 0:02:45.000 trying not to get philosophical and stick to the facts. 0:02:45.840 --> 0:02:50.560 You know, like a lot of uh, low income black people, 0:02:50.720 --> 0:02:53.360 you know, we grow up in communities where we're exposed 0:02:53.360 --> 0:02:59.880 to violence and crime and different you know, social condition 0:03:00.240 --> 0:03:08.400 that oftentimes can set one up for incarceration, homelessness, substance abuse, UH, 0:03:08.480 --> 0:03:12.600 intimate partner violence. And you know, my life was no different. 0:03:13.880 --> 0:03:17.880 My mother suffered from mental illness when I was a child, 0:03:18.440 --> 0:03:23.080 was diagnosed as a schizophrenic. I believe that from so 0:03:23.200 --> 0:03:28.080 she suffered from schizophrenia and she was hospitalized most of 0:03:28.120 --> 0:03:31.680 my childhood in and out. So my sister and I 0:03:31.800 --> 0:03:37.920 moved around a lot, uh stand with relatives, grandparents, grandmother's, 0:03:38.280 --> 0:03:43.000 different folks, my dad for a while, his second wife, 0:03:43.720 --> 0:03:45.480 and then my mom when she would get out of 0:03:45.480 --> 0:03:48.520 the hospital. So just had that kind of tumultuous life 0:03:48.960 --> 0:03:53.280 as a kid growing up in St. Louis, And you know, 0:03:54.680 --> 0:03:59.240 probably saw too many things as a kid that traumatized 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:03.320 me and kind of late dormant in my psyche until 0:04:03.480 --> 0:04:07.880 high school. And you know, I fell in love really 0:04:07.880 --> 0:04:12.720 early in high school, got pregnant, married by seventeen, and 0:04:13.240 --> 0:04:15.880 I went off with my husband, who was in the army, 0:04:16.080 --> 0:04:21.080 and that relationship was pretty volatile and abusive. Both of 0:04:21.160 --> 0:04:25.320 us were way too young to be married. Um, he 0:04:25.920 --> 0:04:28.880 didn't graduate from high school. I had to return to 0:04:29.000 --> 0:04:32.840 high school to graduate, but I did. And it was just, 0:04:33.720 --> 0:04:39.040 you know a lot of ups and downs and chaos. 0:04:40.279 --> 0:04:45.039 And as a young person, you know, a teenager, you 0:04:45.200 --> 0:04:49.640 don't really know how to process those things when it's 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:56.880 one episode after the other. And so I eventually joined 0:04:56.920 --> 0:05:02.480 the military myself, and after my husband and I had 0:05:02.800 --> 0:05:10.920 several more years of domestic violence, and after two very 0:05:11.040 --> 0:05:16.400 violent episodes where my life was threatened. You now, I 0:05:16.520 --> 0:05:21.600 was separated from the Navy, left UM the military with 0:05:21.640 --> 0:05:25.000 my two kids, and I went to California to start 0:05:25.040 --> 0:05:31.440 life over at one years old, and you know, years old, 0:05:31.440 --> 0:05:36.800 a little naive and green and very eager to live 0:05:36.960 --> 0:05:43.440 life differently. In California, was exposed to drugs and gangs 0:05:43.560 --> 0:05:49.200 and you know other I guess street crimes and got 0:05:49.240 --> 0:05:53.239 involved in using drugs, use drugs for about six months, 0:05:53.800 --> 0:05:57.920 tried to sell drugs as as a way of making 0:05:57.960 --> 0:06:03.920 money and supporting myself and my kids. UM didn't work, 0:06:04.120 --> 0:06:08.839 like it never works for anyone, UM, And one day 0:06:08.880 --> 0:06:12.640 I shot and killed a young woman and I was 0:06:12.760 --> 0:06:17.400 convicted of second degree murder and sentence to life in prison. 0:06:18.960 --> 0:06:26.760 And when I got to prison, I knew that my 0:06:26.960 --> 0:06:33.359 life was not supposed to be that, and so I 0:06:33.520 --> 0:06:38.960 worked really hard inside of the prison too, teach myself 0:06:39.040 --> 0:06:44.200 different skills, life skills, soft skills, enrolled in my first 0:06:44.240 --> 0:06:50.839 college course, became a college tutor. UM, was a fire 0:06:50.920 --> 0:06:58.560 camp trainer, a clerk, helped many jobs, created five organizations 0:06:58.640 --> 0:07:01.200 when I was in the prison, and one was a 0:07:01.279 --> 0:07:05.080 G E D program. Another was the African American Women 0:07:05.160 --> 0:07:12.600 Prisons Association, a fitness program, a drug awareness counseling program, 0:07:12.680 --> 0:07:17.640 and created an an awards called the Community Service Award, 0:07:17.760 --> 0:07:22.440 where incarcerated people who demonstrated acts as service within the 0:07:22.480 --> 0:07:29.120 community could receive some privileges outside of what is normally 0:07:29.160 --> 0:07:34.240 given to an incarcerated person. And you know, really lived 0:07:34.240 --> 0:07:37.880 my life in the prison for twenty three years, uh, 0:07:37.920 --> 0:07:42.600 in such a way that I was highly respected by 0:07:42.640 --> 0:07:47.240 my peers and many of the correctional staff and administration. 0:07:47.880 --> 0:07:53.200 And then eventually, through the support of USC Post Conviction 0:07:53.360 --> 0:08:01.680 Justice Project, my freedom was I guess granted through the 0:08:01.720 --> 0:08:07.160 courts based on my hard work and rehabilitation because the 0:08:07.200 --> 0:08:12.480 border prison terms found it very difficult to find me 0:08:12.560 --> 0:08:17.680 suitable for release into the courts intervened for some odd reason, 0:08:17.760 --> 0:08:23.560 which I think was uh totally part of the racist 0:08:23.560 --> 0:08:27.560 system that we we have. But that's a whole another conversation. 0:08:28.240 --> 0:08:34.600 And eventually I was released in two through the courts 0:08:34.880 --> 0:08:41.160 and returned to higher education as my transformative practice and power. 0:08:42.080 --> 0:08:46.679 And you know, one thing led to another. I graduated 0:08:46.720 --> 0:08:50.920 from Pitzer College with honors with the bachelor's degree in 0:08:50.960 --> 0:08:55.080 Gender and feminist studies, and then earned a couple of 0:08:55.080 --> 0:08:58.440 spots and some fellowships. I was a choral fellow, went 0:08:58.480 --> 0:09:03.040 to grad school at Washington University in St. Louis, were 0:09:03.200 --> 0:09:07.839 my master's degree in Liberal studies, and then moved back 0:09:07.880 --> 0:09:13.920 to California for position within the cal State University system 0:09:14.200 --> 0:09:18.560 and with Project Rebound. And then my life got real 0:09:18.640 --> 0:09:25.360 crazy with doing activism and UM abolitionists work. So that's 0:09:25.400 --> 0:09:32.280 all I'm going to volunteer. It's UM. It's remarkable, you know, 0:09:32.400 --> 0:09:36.680 I mean the idea that you, after spending twenty three 0:09:36.760 --> 0:09:39.240 years in prison, and whyt while spending twenty three years 0:09:39.240 --> 0:09:42.520 in prison, were able to I mean, rehabilitation is an 0:09:42.559 --> 0:09:47.480 interesting word because you went above and beyond any realistic 0:09:47.600 --> 0:09:52.280 expectation of rehabilitation or anything else. I mean, you went 0:09:52.360 --> 0:09:56.520 to a place of um, I'm going to call it greatness. 0:09:57.320 --> 0:10:01.840 And then once you were able to win your freedom 0:10:01.880 --> 0:10:05.760 thanks to the Post Conviction Justice Project, you hit the 0:10:05.760 --> 0:10:10.199 ground running and even running ever since. So you're an 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:15.360 abolitionist right now. You had your twenty three years, you 0:10:15.440 --> 0:10:20.480 know more than almost anyone about what goes on behind 0:10:20.520 --> 0:10:25.680 the walls and and throughout the system. Tell us about 0:10:25.720 --> 0:10:29.120 abolition and your views on abolition, because most people hear 0:10:29.160 --> 0:10:30.719 that word and they say, well, wait a minute, what 0:10:30.760 --> 0:10:32.760 are we going to do with the most violent people 0:10:32.840 --> 0:10:35.720 like we How are we going to stay safe? I mean, 0:10:36.040 --> 0:10:39.040 even the most progressive people that I talked to will 0:10:39.080 --> 0:10:44.600 say things like that. Tell us your vision for abolition 0:10:44.640 --> 0:10:48.040 and a more just justice system? Well, I think my 0:10:48.200 --> 0:10:51.360 vision pretty much falls in line with you know, the 0:10:51.440 --> 0:10:57.760 greatest abolitionists of our time, uh Dr Angela, Yvon Davis, 0:10:57.760 --> 0:11:02.319 and Ruthie Wilson, oh more, and you know, and and others. 0:11:02.360 --> 0:11:06.959 They they talk more about building the community the world 0:11:07.040 --> 0:11:13.680 that we want, you know, and dismantling the systems of 0:11:13.760 --> 0:11:19.600 oppression that currently exists. And and I think that's the 0:11:19.640 --> 0:11:26.319 true spirit of abolition and why I identify as an abolitionist. 0:11:26.360 --> 0:11:30.440 I think it's really important for those of us who 0:11:30.600 --> 0:11:37.439 understand systems of oppression, whether it's through white supremacy, racism, sexism, 0:11:37.520 --> 0:11:42.360 ages and xenophobic whatever it is, you know that the 0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:47.000 majority of folks our abolitionists in some degree, you know, 0:11:47.040 --> 0:11:51.120 whether they're working to dismantle poverty in their lives or 0:11:51.160 --> 0:11:55.400 cycles of violence in their lives through you know, whatever 0:11:55.640 --> 0:11:58.720 it is that you're trying to dismantle in your life, 0:11:58.760 --> 0:12:03.360 you are an abolitionist and spirit And if you're working 0:12:03.400 --> 0:12:06.160 towards building the life that you want for yourself, the 0:12:06.240 --> 0:12:09.160 community that you want for yourself, the world that you 0:12:09.200 --> 0:12:13.440 want for yourself, you're reimagining what it would look like 0:12:14.200 --> 0:12:18.920 if we could remove some of these harms and build 0:12:18.920 --> 0:12:23.160 guard rails and safety around the things that we want 0:12:23.840 --> 0:12:28.000 in an equitable way, so that all can thrive and live. Well. 0:12:28.120 --> 0:12:32.319 You are an abolitionist. It's not just about p I C. 0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:36.240 Abolition And and that's where I think a lot of 0:12:36.320 --> 0:12:41.280 people get hung up with the spirit of abolition, is that, 0:12:42.040 --> 0:12:45.040 you know, it's all about the prison system. And if 0:12:45.080 --> 0:12:48.600 we do away with the prison system, what will we 0:12:48.679 --> 0:12:52.880 do with people who harm other people. Well, most of 0:12:52.920 --> 0:12:57.120 the people who harm other people and the masses are 0:12:57.160 --> 0:13:01.040 wearing business suits, and they walk into offices and and 0:13:01.160 --> 0:13:04.520 step out of cars and carry briefcases, and they harm 0:13:04.800 --> 0:13:08.800 tens and thousands of people, oftentimes through some of the 0:13:08.840 --> 0:13:13.760 work that they do, destroying the environment or cheating people 0:13:13.800 --> 0:13:18.480 out of their retirement. And these systems need to be 0:13:18.559 --> 0:13:22.440 abolished as well. And so you know, I think we 0:13:22.520 --> 0:13:26.000 need to think about abolition a little bit more broadly 0:13:26.120 --> 0:13:31.760 than just closing prisons. That's a part of p I 0:13:31.840 --> 0:13:37.480 C abolition, but it's not all of what abolition is about. 0:13:38.480 --> 0:13:43.200 And so I think most people can agree that the 0:13:43.320 --> 0:13:48.079 current criminal legal punishment system that we have is flawed 0:13:49.040 --> 0:13:55.240 or as some say, working as designed, because as designed, 0:13:55.559 --> 0:14:01.640 it was created to capture certain bodies, mostly black bodies, 0:14:02.640 --> 0:14:09.160 and disenfranchise black communities, and was an extension of slavery 0:14:09.240 --> 0:14:13.800 and created to be a big part of that Jim 0:14:13.920 --> 0:14:18.880 Crow era, and it just evolved into what we see 0:14:18.920 --> 0:14:24.960 now here in the United States as mass incarceration. And 0:14:25.040 --> 0:14:30.200 that's what needs to be dismantled. Mass incarceration. But all 0:14:30.240 --> 0:14:37.280 of those social ills that set people up to be incarcerated, poverty, 0:14:38.560 --> 0:14:46.960 lack of education, poor public education, poor housing, lack of housing, redlining, 0:14:47.800 --> 0:14:51.880 draconian laws that exist on the books that set people 0:14:51.960 --> 0:14:55.760 up to be violated, and you know, and and then again, 0:14:55.840 --> 0:15:00.720 the law is subjective. You know, we see people who 0:15:00.800 --> 0:15:04.360 are white get away with things that people who are 0:15:04.400 --> 0:15:08.280 black and brown cannot get away with just because of 0:15:08.400 --> 0:15:13.280 class and because of race and because of social status 0:15:13.320 --> 0:15:17.000 and all of these other things. You know, everything is 0:15:17.080 --> 0:15:20.240 subjective and it's always who you are and who you 0:15:20.280 --> 0:15:23.520 know and how much money you have. And so these 0:15:23.520 --> 0:15:29.880 are the systems that we need to reimagine so that 0:15:29.920 --> 0:15:36.640 there is equity and justice in the world in whatever 0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:39.600 ways that we can make it happen. We need to 0:15:39.600 --> 0:15:42.480 make it happen. And so that's where I come from 0:15:42.560 --> 0:16:01.320 as an abolitionist. Mm hmm. Right, just Convictions with Jason 0:16:01.360 --> 0:16:04.600 Flam is super excited and honored to have the support 0:16:04.760 --> 0:16:08.720 of a great organization like Galaxy Gives. Galaxy Gives leads 0:16:08.760 --> 0:16:13.560 the filmthropic efforts of the Novograds family. They invest in organizations, campaigns, 0:16:13.560 --> 0:16:16.240 and leaders who are directly impacted by and working to 0:16:16.320 --> 0:16:20.400 dismantle the current punitive justice system. Galaxy Gives also builds 0:16:20.440 --> 0:16:23.640 power for the community's most harmed by mass incarceration and 0:16:23.680 --> 0:16:27.480 forges transformative solutions for responding to that harm. They envision 0:16:27.520 --> 0:16:31.080 a society where the structural barriers created by racism, poverty, 0:16:31.120 --> 0:16:34.240 and inequality are no more, where instead all people have 0:16:34.360 --> 0:16:46.360 the dignity, freedom and rights needed to thrive. And your 0:16:46.440 --> 0:16:51.640 work really focuses on women, right, I mean, I think 0:16:52.520 --> 0:16:58.360 the connection between women in prison and America isn't talked 0:16:58.400 --> 0:17:02.800 about enough. Well, people have no idea, for instance, that 0:17:02.960 --> 0:17:06.600 with about four and a half percent of the world's population, 0:17:06.720 --> 0:17:12.560 we have about of the world's female prison population, and 0:17:12.640 --> 0:17:16.240 that should be a source of national shame and should 0:17:16.240 --> 0:17:20.359 be a front page headline because what is it. I mean, 0:17:20.359 --> 0:17:23.480 our American women so terrible compared to the rest of 0:17:23.520 --> 0:17:25.320 the world that they all need to be put in cages. 0:17:26.320 --> 0:17:28.840 I mean, help me out with this, because I've never 0:17:28.960 --> 0:17:33.000 understood why we do it this way. Well, again, I 0:17:33.520 --> 0:17:38.960 think it's about labor, and it's also about the ideas 0:17:39.000 --> 0:17:43.600 around punishment and who's deserving a punishment and who isn't. 0:17:44.520 --> 0:17:51.240 And whenever a state or the government can profit off 0:17:51.320 --> 0:17:56.160 of labor and human capital, they do it. I mean, 0:17:57.280 --> 0:18:00.159 this country was built on the backs of slavery, on 0:18:00.240 --> 0:18:04.080 the back to slaves, and most of the wealth in 0:18:04.080 --> 0:18:09.680 this country, you know, has been generated, you know, from 0:18:09.960 --> 0:18:14.720 the labor of poor black and brown and indigenous people. 0:18:16.040 --> 0:18:19.480 And so it's not hard to understand that. You know, 0:18:19.600 --> 0:18:27.200 when when you run out of reasons to exploit one 0:18:27.280 --> 0:18:30.240 group of people, you find another group of people to exploit. 0:18:30.960 --> 0:18:33.399 And so, you know, the war on drugs and the 0:18:33.440 --> 0:18:38.000 War on crime and the Crime Bill that establishes mandatory 0:18:38.080 --> 0:18:43.200 minimums and long sentences, and all of these drug policies 0:18:44.200 --> 0:18:47.560 of the eighties. You know what it did was it 0:18:47.480 --> 0:18:51.040 it's set up pathways for women to be part of 0:18:51.080 --> 0:18:55.639 the car sero system. You know, the crack epidemic, you know, 0:18:56.280 --> 0:19:02.159 just open the the floodgates, and women got swept up 0:19:02.160 --> 0:19:07.520 in that too, because these drug policies didn't discriminate against gender. 0:19:08.280 --> 0:19:12.600 And and then you know the crime Bial with its 0:19:12.680 --> 0:19:17.080 long sentences and and and felony murder rule and um, 0:19:17.160 --> 0:19:20.560 I mean, it's just a long history of bad, bad, 0:19:20.600 --> 0:19:25.679 bad policies that set a lot of women up to 0:19:25.840 --> 0:19:31.120 serve long sentences, to be incarcerated, to lose their children, 0:19:31.200 --> 0:19:36.199 to lose their homes, to lose to lose themselves in 0:19:36.280 --> 0:19:40.880 this system, and the revolving door was just waiting for 0:19:40.960 --> 0:19:45.680 them to return. Because parole and probation is another one 0:19:45.680 --> 0:19:50.200 of those tyrannical systems that needs to be abolished and 0:19:50.520 --> 0:19:56.040 dismantled because many times, especially in the nineties and early 0:19:56.080 --> 0:20:04.000 two thousand's, there was so many discriminatory practices and unfair 0:20:04.040 --> 0:20:09.760 practices by probation and parole where folks were getting violated 0:20:09.800 --> 0:20:15.280 and returned to a cage because they couldn't find a job, 0:20:15.640 --> 0:20:19.399 or they didn't have an address, or they tested dirty 0:20:19.480 --> 0:20:24.199 for some substance. And so, you know, thank god, a 0:20:24.280 --> 0:20:28.480 lot of people have changed those practices, and a lot 0:20:28.520 --> 0:20:32.000 of agencies across the country has changed some of those practices, 0:20:32.040 --> 0:20:36.000 but they're still, as you said, way too many women 0:20:36.040 --> 0:20:40.080 who are incarcerated and way too many people period, and 0:20:40.160 --> 0:20:44.520 pathways to incarceration for women are usually you know, relational 0:20:45.200 --> 0:20:50.800 or involved substance abuse and long histories of trauma. In 0:20:50.840 --> 0:20:57.120 addition to that, six all incarcerated women have minor children, 0:20:57.240 --> 0:21:00.959 children under the age of eighteen, and so that just 0:21:01.160 --> 0:21:06.560 it just exacerbates the school to prison pipeline and continues 0:21:06.720 --> 0:21:12.639 to use human capital as as a means of of 0:21:12.720 --> 0:21:17.040 labor and profit for states. You here's another statistic that 0:21:17.119 --> 0:21:20.359 just blows my mind. According to the Innocence Project of 0:21:20.400 --> 0:21:23.520 the female exonorees in this country, and there are many, 0:21:23.640 --> 0:21:27.960 around seventy of them. Get this, We're convicted of crimes 0:21:28.000 --> 0:21:33.320 that never even happened. There are actually things like accidents, suicides, 0:21:33.400 --> 0:21:37.880 and fabricated crimes. Just think about that for a second. 0:21:38.119 --> 0:21:41.280 It's not and not only that. When we spoke recently 0:21:41.280 --> 0:21:45.200 with Oddnan Khan, he told us that se the women 0:21:45.240 --> 0:21:49.439 who are incarcerated for homicide in California were not actually 0:21:49.520 --> 0:21:52.600 the killer in those cases. They were just with somebody 0:21:52.600 --> 0:21:57.120 who did the actual killing. That's the felony murder ru Many, 0:21:57.160 --> 0:22:02.200 many incarcerated women were not the perpetrators of the crime 0:22:02.240 --> 0:22:06.400 that they are convicted of. They may have been knowledgeable 0:22:06.520 --> 0:22:08.639 or something after the fact that they may not have 0:22:08.760 --> 0:22:11.480 known at all. They may have been in the car 0:22:11.600 --> 0:22:16.200 while a husband or a boyfriend, or a son or 0:22:16.240 --> 0:22:20.200 a brother or somebody else was committing a crime. I mean, 0:22:20.240 --> 0:22:25.640 there are so many circumstances where you are not knowledgeable 0:22:25.760 --> 0:22:29.760 of a crime. But in California, prior to I believe 0:22:31.760 --> 0:22:35.000 you know, if you had knowledge of a crime and 0:22:35.040 --> 0:22:39.560 you didn't report it or turned the person in or 0:22:39.600 --> 0:22:42.840 said anything, then you were just as guilty as the 0:22:42.920 --> 0:22:47.760 person who committed the crime, especially if someone was killed 0:22:47.800 --> 0:22:51.480 during the commission of a crime, regardless of whether there 0:22:51.600 --> 0:22:55.040 was intent to kill or not. Under the felony murder rule, 0:22:55.880 --> 0:23:01.640 you were found guilty of murder and those who were 0:23:01.720 --> 0:23:05.280 with you as well. And so there are a lot 0:23:05.520 --> 0:23:09.320 of incarcerated women in the state of California serving life 0:23:09.400 --> 0:23:13.800 without the possibility of parole, who did not commit a crime, 0:23:14.520 --> 0:23:18.800 who were not even knowledgeable of the crime, but because 0:23:18.840 --> 0:23:22.960 it was their partner and they were with them after 0:23:23.040 --> 0:23:26.919 the fact, or sometimes even before the fact. You know, 0:23:27.080 --> 0:23:32.879 oftentimes you are not knowledgeable of a crime. But in California, 0:23:32.960 --> 0:23:37.159 prior to I believe if you had knowledge of a 0:23:37.280 --> 0:23:41.679 crime and you didn't report it, or the result was 0:23:42.320 --> 0:23:47.040 they were convicted of the same crime or sometimes conspiracy 0:23:47.560 --> 0:23:52.360 to commit a crime without any real evidence. And there 0:23:52.359 --> 0:23:56.280 are many women that we fight for every day to 0:23:56.359 --> 0:24:00.840 get released because of the Felony murder rule that finally 0:24:01.000 --> 0:24:04.639 legislated so that there could be some relief for folks. 0:24:04.680 --> 0:24:10.359 But people spent forty five years in prison. And I 0:24:10.480 --> 0:24:14.440 have a number of friends who have come home recently 0:24:14.880 --> 0:24:17.560 the last couple of years, and some that are still inside. 0:24:18.240 --> 0:24:20.120 That's what I was gonna ask you, is there one 0:24:20.200 --> 0:24:23.080 person that you you know, maybe somebody who's still in 0:24:23.200 --> 0:24:26.440 or recently got out, who is sort of embodies this 0:24:27.160 --> 0:24:30.400 problem and you can put a human face on, like, 0:24:30.520 --> 0:24:33.760 is there one person that comes with your mind. First thing, well, 0:24:33.880 --> 0:24:37.200 just recently Um, we used to call her mother Mary, 0:24:37.320 --> 0:24:42.000 Mary Jones. After thirty two years, Um, you know, she's 0:24:42.080 --> 0:24:46.359 she's finally being set free. You know, she didn't commit 0:24:46.400 --> 0:24:50.720 the crime. Um. And you know, we called her mother 0:24:50.800 --> 0:24:55.959 Mary for a reason because she was this elder you know, 0:24:56.480 --> 0:25:00.280 black woman who nurtured so many of us that came 0:25:00.320 --> 0:25:04.000 in young. She was the church mother, she saying in 0:25:04.040 --> 0:25:08.920 the choir, she led the Bible studies, she prayed for us, 0:25:09.520 --> 0:25:13.040 she raised many of us in the prison. And finally, 0:25:14.119 --> 0:25:19.359 you know, the courts have recognized that she's innocent, that 0:25:19.440 --> 0:25:21.800 she did not commit a crime. And she had been 0:25:21.840 --> 0:25:26.239 saying this for thirty two years. You know, this just 0:25:26.359 --> 0:25:29.840 happened a few days ago. And so it's you know, 0:25:29.920 --> 0:25:34.040 thanks again to the Post Conviction Justice Project, you know, 0:25:34.240 --> 0:25:38.560 it's it's the Innocence Project, it's Human Rights Watches, Post 0:25:38.600 --> 0:25:42.320 Conviction Justice Project and all of these other you know, 0:25:42.440 --> 0:25:47.080 law schools that that worked to get people free, to 0:25:47.240 --> 0:25:53.000 liberate folks from you know, this punishment system where we 0:25:54.119 --> 0:25:58.320 as black and brown people, poor people, indigenous people, queer 0:25:58.400 --> 0:26:03.560 people's you know, just different people, people other than white people. 0:26:04.240 --> 0:26:08.560 You know, walk into a courtroom. It's never a jury 0:26:08.600 --> 0:26:14.960 of your peers, and you are immediately suspect and oftentimes 0:26:15.359 --> 0:26:20.119 railroade it into a jail sale or a prison sale 0:26:20.800 --> 0:26:25.040 for crimes that you did not commit. Okay, so let's 0:26:25.040 --> 0:26:27.920 talk about some of your many accomplishments and awards, because 0:26:27.960 --> 0:26:34.600 this is amazing. Pitzer College Distinguished Alumni Award, Woman of Distinction, 0:26:34.800 --> 0:26:39.920 Social Justice Champion Award, the eighteen Civil Rights and Advocacy 0:26:39.920 --> 0:26:42.439 Award from the National Council of One Black Women, and 0:26:42.520 --> 0:26:46.160 most importantly, in my opinion, you were the policy advisor 0:26:46.320 --> 0:26:51.879 for tremendously important legislative bills in California, bills that include 0:26:52.560 --> 0:26:56.520 the Incarcerated Students Bill of Rights, the Racial Justice Act 0:26:56.560 --> 0:27:03.120 of and a B and tell us more about three, 0:27:03.359 --> 0:27:07.280 which just really establishes some of the most basic human 0:27:07.359 --> 0:27:10.439 rights and dignities for incarcerated people that the rest of 0:27:10.560 --> 0:27:13.720 us take for granted. I'm talking about things like believe 0:27:13.720 --> 0:27:17.280 it or not, toothpaste and soap, to name just a couple. 0:27:17.400 --> 0:27:20.440 And we shouldn't even have needed a bill like this, 0:27:20.560 --> 0:27:25.280 but you made it happen. Yeah, there's you know, I 0:27:25.359 --> 0:27:31.199 testified in the Senate UH for three, the Dignity and 0:27:31.280 --> 0:27:34.320 Care Act, the indigen Bill because you know, I was 0:27:34.359 --> 0:27:38.280 incarcerated for twenty three years where the indigens thrust whole 0:27:38.480 --> 0:27:42.359 was one dollar, and so anyone who had one dollar, 0:27:43.119 --> 0:27:48.560 one dollar or more on their trust account was ineligible 0:27:48.760 --> 0:27:55.680 for state hygiene supplies, stamps, envelopes, you know, notary services, 0:27:55.760 --> 0:27:59.040 things like that. I mean one dollar. And so if 0:27:59.080 --> 0:28:01.919 you wanted to go to the doctor the dentist, and 0:28:02.000 --> 0:28:04.919 you had a dollar and fifty nine cents or a 0:28:05.000 --> 0:28:07.919 dollar and a penny, then you had to pay a 0:28:07.960 --> 0:28:11.639 five dollar co pay. You didn't have five dollars to 0:28:11.680 --> 0:28:14.800 pay the five dollar co pay. It didn't bar you 0:28:15.080 --> 0:28:17.800 from seeing a doctor, but what it did do was 0:28:17.840 --> 0:28:21.800 put a hold on your account for five dollars for 0:28:21.920 --> 0:28:26.280 thirty days. And most of us who are incarcerated, as 0:28:26.320 --> 0:28:30.840 you know, made very low wages, I mean pennies, pennies 0:28:30.880 --> 0:28:35.120 an hour. I myself made eight cents an hour. And 0:28:35.400 --> 0:28:38.480 if you work for eight cents an hour, which is 0:28:38.520 --> 0:28:44.000 the average pay, that's twenty dollars a month. It takes 0:28:44.760 --> 0:28:48.720 you know, sixty hours or so to earn five dollars. 0:28:48.760 --> 0:28:51.719 And so that bill was really important to me because 0:28:51.840 --> 0:28:54.920 if I made twenty dollars a month, I had to 0:28:55.000 --> 0:28:58.800 make some strategic decisions on how to spend that twenty 0:28:58.840 --> 0:29:02.160 dollars because us I didn't have anything coming from the 0:29:02.200 --> 0:29:06.400 state of California other than two hots and a lunch box. 0:29:07.240 --> 0:29:13.000 And so how how do I get washing powder, toothpaste, 0:29:13.120 --> 0:29:19.760 shampoo conditioner, feminine hygiene products? Tyler, Now, I mean you 0:29:19.920 --> 0:29:22.720 have to buy everything when you have more than a 0:29:22.800 --> 0:29:28.840 dollar on your account. And so raising that threshold from 0:29:28.920 --> 0:29:38.040 one dollar to dollars impacted eighty thousand people within c 0:29:38.240 --> 0:29:42.440 d c R eighty thousand. When those numbers came back, 0:29:42.560 --> 0:29:45.960 it blew my mind because at that time, there was 0:29:46.000 --> 0:29:49.400 a little over a hundred thousand people incarcerated in the 0:29:49.480 --> 0:29:53.760 state of California. The average person makes twenty dollars a month. 0:29:54.040 --> 0:29:56.960 So if we said it at twenty five dollars, we 0:29:57.160 --> 0:30:01.040 know that that man or that woman who's earned that 0:30:01.160 --> 0:30:05.560 twenty dollars can now send their kids something a birthday card, 0:30:05.600 --> 0:30:09.640 a graduation gift, you know, make sure that they have 0:30:11.120 --> 0:30:15.160 something to contribute to their family, or buy themselves a 0:30:15.160 --> 0:30:19.200 new pair of shoes, you know, save for that. And 0:30:19.280 --> 0:30:23.960 so it just it just blew my mind that thinking 0:30:23.960 --> 0:30:26.320 about what I wish I would have had when I 0:30:26.360 --> 0:30:31.160 was in prison, impacted eighty thousand people. That's the power 0:30:31.280 --> 0:30:36.040 we have, and and that's the kind of legislation we 0:30:36.120 --> 0:30:43.160 can create when we are thinking outside of ourselves. You know. 0:30:43.320 --> 0:30:46.280 It was it just it blows my mind every time 0:30:46.360 --> 0:30:49.560 I I think about that particular bill. And when I 0:30:49.640 --> 0:30:53.280 testified in the Senate about it, I shared with them 0:30:53.360 --> 0:30:58.120 having to choose between you know, going to canteen the 0:30:58.160 --> 0:31:02.440 commissary to buy Chris Smuth cards to send my kids 0:31:03.040 --> 0:31:07.200 or toothpaste. This is what it gets down to, you know. 0:31:07.400 --> 0:31:10.880 And then you know, folks want to chastise you and 0:31:10.960 --> 0:31:15.440 condemn you and shame you when you can't communicate with 0:31:15.520 --> 0:31:19.360 your kids. When you don't you know, send Christmas cards, 0:31:19.360 --> 0:31:22.480 a Birthday cards. Your kids grow up thinking that you 0:31:22.560 --> 0:31:26.880 don't love them when you can't afford a Christmas card 0:31:27.120 --> 0:31:30.240 or birthday car. And so this was one of the 0:31:30.280 --> 0:31:58.880 game changers for me. So you end up, after doing 0:31:58.960 --> 0:32:02.160