Speaker 1: Welcome to Righteous Convictions with Jason Flammer, the podcast where
Speaker 1: I speak with people who see the wrong in the
Speaker 1: world and are driven to make it right. My guest
Speaker 1: today is a woman who spent twenty three years in
Speaker 1: prison and emerged as a social justice champion, a tireless
Speaker 1: fighter for the incarcerated, and a self described abolitionist. I
Speaker 1: think we need to think about abolition a little bit
Speaker 1: more broadly than just closing prisons. The majority of folks
Speaker 1: our abolitionists in some degree. You know, whether they're working
Speaker 1: to dismantle poverty in their lives or cycles the violence
Speaker 1: in their lives. Whatever it is that you're trying to
Speaker 1: dismantle in your life, you are an abolitionist in spirit.
Speaker 1: Right now on Righteous Convictions from moor Lynn Roston. Welcome
Speaker 1: back to Righteous Convictions with Jason Flant. Today's guest is
Speaker 1: Romrlyn Roston. Very very lyrical name, by the way, but
Speaker 1: Marylyn is the executive director of College and Community Fellowship,
Speaker 1: a nonprofit of New York City that helps women and
Speaker 1: families most harmed by mass criminalization gained equitable access to
Speaker 1: opportunity and higher education. And Maryland, first of all, Welcome
Speaker 1: to Righteous convictions. Thank you, Jason, thanks for having me
Speaker 1: on the show right off the Red Eye and she's
Speaker 1: rare to go so um. You know, you are uniquely
Speaker 1: qualified to do the things that you're doing because of
Speaker 1: your own life experience, and I'm excited to hear mostly
Speaker 1: about the things that you're doing. But before we get
Speaker 1: into that, I wanted to know how you became you,
Speaker 1: what happened to start this crazy journey through our car
Speaker 1: sol system for you? And then how did you transform
Speaker 1: yourself and find your I guess I'm going to call
Speaker 1: your true calling. Well, that's a big question. I'm not
Speaker 1: sure if we have a couple of days to talk
Speaker 1: about how I became me and found my true calling. Now,
Speaker 1: trying not to get philosophical and stick to the facts.
Speaker 1: You know, like a lot of uh, low income black people,
Speaker 1: you know, we grow up in communities where we're exposed
Speaker 1: to violence and crime and different you know, social condition
Speaker 1: that oftentimes can set one up for incarceration, homelessness, substance abuse, UH,
Speaker 1: intimate partner violence. And you know, my life was no different.
Speaker 1: My mother suffered from mental illness when I was a child,
Speaker 1: was diagnosed as a schizophrenic. I believe that from so
Speaker 1: she suffered from schizophrenia and she was hospitalized most of
Speaker 1: my childhood in and out. So my sister and I
Speaker 1: moved around a lot, uh stand with relatives, grandparents, grandmother's,
Speaker 1: different folks, my dad for a while, his second wife,
Speaker 1: and then my mom when she would get out of
Speaker 1: the hospital. So just had that kind of tumultuous life
Speaker 1: as a kid growing up in St. Louis, And you know,
Speaker 1: probably saw too many things as a kid that traumatized
Speaker 1: me and kind of late dormant in my psyche until
Speaker 1: high school. And you know, I fell in love really
Speaker 1: early in high school, got pregnant, married by seventeen, and
Speaker 1: I went off with my husband, who was in the army,
Speaker 1: and that relationship was pretty volatile and abusive. Both of
Speaker 1: us were way too young to be married. Um, he
Speaker 1: didn't graduate from high school. I had to return to
Speaker 1: high school to graduate, but I did. And it was just,
Speaker 1: you know a lot of ups and downs and chaos.
Speaker 1: And as a young person, you know, a teenager, you
Speaker 1: don't really know how to process those things when it's
Speaker 1: one episode after the other. And so I eventually joined
Speaker 1: the military myself, and after my husband and I had
Speaker 1: several more years of domestic violence, and after two very
Speaker 1: violent episodes where my life was threatened. You now, I
Speaker 1: was separated from the Navy, left UM the military with
Speaker 1: my two kids, and I went to California to start
Speaker 1: life over at one years old, and you know, years old,
Speaker 1: a little naive and green and very eager to live
Speaker 1: life differently. In California, was exposed to drugs and gangs
Speaker 1: and you know other I guess street crimes and got
Speaker 1: involved in using drugs, use drugs for about six months,
Speaker 1: tried to sell drugs as as a way of making
Speaker 1: money and supporting myself and my kids. UM didn't work,
Speaker 1: like it never works for anyone, UM, And one day
Speaker 1: I shot and killed a young woman and I was
Speaker 1: convicted of second degree murder and sentence to life in prison.
Speaker 1: And when I got to prison, I knew that my
Speaker 1: life was not supposed to be that, and so I
Speaker 1: worked really hard inside of the prison too, teach myself
Speaker 1: different skills, life skills, soft skills, enrolled in my first
Speaker 1: college course, became a college tutor. UM, was a fire
Speaker 1: camp trainer, a clerk, helped many jobs, created five organizations
Speaker 1: when I was in the prison, and one was a
Speaker 1: G E D program. Another was the African American Women
Speaker 1: Prisons Association, a fitness program, a drug awareness counseling program,
Speaker 1: and created an an awards called the Community Service Award,
Speaker 1: where incarcerated people who demonstrated acts as service within the
Speaker 1: community could receive some privileges outside of what is normally
Speaker 1: given to an incarcerated person. And you know, really lived
Speaker 1: my life in the prison for twenty three years, uh,
Speaker 1: in such a way that I was highly respected by
Speaker 1: my peers and many of the correctional staff and administration.
Speaker 1: And then eventually, through the support of USC Post Conviction
Speaker 1: Justice Project, my freedom was I guess granted through the
Speaker 1: courts based on my hard work and rehabilitation because the
Speaker 1: border prison terms found it very difficult to find me
Speaker 1: suitable for release into the courts intervened for some odd reason,
Speaker 1: which I think was uh totally part of the racist
Speaker 1: system that we we have. But that's a whole another conversation.
Speaker 1: And eventually I was released in two through the courts
Speaker 1: and returned to higher education as my transformative practice and power.
Speaker 1: And you know, one thing led to another. I graduated
Speaker 1: from Pitzer College with honors with the bachelor's degree in
Speaker 1: Gender and feminist studies, and then earned a couple of
Speaker 1: spots and some fellowships. I was a choral fellow, went
Speaker 1: to grad school at Washington University in St. Louis, were
Speaker 1: my master's degree in Liberal studies, and then moved back
Speaker 1: to California for position within the cal State University system
Speaker 1: and with Project Rebound. And then my life got real
Speaker 1: crazy with doing activism and UM abolitionists work. So that's
Speaker 1: all I'm going to volunteer. It's UM. It's remarkable, you know,
Speaker 1: I mean the idea that you, after spending twenty three
Speaker 1: years in prison, and whyt while spending twenty three years
Speaker 1: in prison, were able to I mean, rehabilitation is an
Speaker 1: interesting word because you went above and beyond any realistic
Speaker 1: expectation of rehabilitation or anything else. I mean, you went
Speaker 1: to a place of um, I'm going to call it greatness.
Speaker 1: And then once you were able to win your freedom
Speaker 1: thanks to the Post Conviction Justice Project, you hit the
Speaker 1: ground running and even running ever since. So you're an
Speaker 1: abolitionist right now. You had your twenty three years, you
Speaker 1: know more than almost anyone about what goes on behind
Speaker 1: the walls and and throughout the system. Tell us about
Speaker 1: abolition and your views on abolition, because most people hear
Speaker 1: that word and they say, well, wait a minute, what
Speaker 1: are we going to do with the most violent people
Speaker 1: like we How are we going to stay safe? I mean,
Speaker 1: even the most progressive people that I talked to will
Speaker 1: say things like that. Tell us your vision for abolition
Speaker 1: and a more just justice system? Well, I think my
Speaker 1: vision pretty much falls in line with you know, the
Speaker 1: greatest abolitionists of our time, uh Dr Angela, Yvon Davis,
Speaker 1: and Ruthie Wilson, oh more, and you know, and and others.
Speaker 1: They they talk more about building the community the world
Speaker 1: that we want, you know, and dismantling the systems of
Speaker 1: oppression that currently exists. And and I think that's the
Speaker 1: true spirit of abolition and why I identify as an abolitionist.
Speaker 1: I think it's really important for those of us who
Speaker 1: understand systems of oppression, whether it's through white supremacy, racism, sexism,
Speaker 1: ages and xenophobic whatever it is, you know that the
Speaker 1: majority of folks our abolitionists in some degree, you know,
Speaker 1: whether they're working to dismantle poverty in their lives or
Speaker 1: cycles of violence in their lives through you know, whatever
Speaker 1: it is that you're trying to dismantle in your life,
Speaker 1: you are an abolitionist and spirit And if you're working
Speaker 1: towards building the life that you want for yourself, the
Speaker 1: community that you want for yourself, the world that you
Speaker 1: want for yourself, you're reimagining what it would look like
Speaker 1: if we could remove some of these harms and build
Speaker 1: guard rails and safety around the things that we want
Speaker 1: in an equitable way, so that all can thrive and live. Well.
Speaker 1: You are an abolitionist. It's not just about p I C.
Speaker 1: Abolition And and that's where I think a lot of
Speaker 1: people get hung up with the spirit of abolition, is that,
Speaker 1: you know, it's all about the prison system. And if
Speaker 1: we do away with the prison system, what will we
Speaker 1: do with people who harm other people. Well, most of
Speaker 1: the people who harm other people and the masses are
Speaker 1: wearing business suits, and they walk into offices and and
Speaker 1: step out of cars and carry briefcases, and they harm
Speaker 1: tens and thousands of people, oftentimes through some of the
Speaker 1: work that they do, destroying the environment or cheating people
Speaker 1: out of their retirement. And these systems need to be
Speaker 1: abolished as well. And so you know, I think we
Speaker 1: need to think about abolition a little bit more broadly
Speaker 1: than just closing prisons. That's a part of p I
Speaker 1: C abolition, but it's not all of what abolition is about.
Speaker 1: And so I think most people can agree that the
Speaker 1: current criminal legal punishment system that we have is flawed
Speaker 1: or as some say, working as designed, because as designed,
Speaker 1: it was created to capture certain bodies, mostly black bodies,
Speaker 1: and disenfranchise black communities, and was an extension of slavery
Speaker 1: and created to be a big part of that Jim
Speaker 1: Crow era, and it just evolved into what we see
Speaker 1: now here in the United States as mass incarceration. And
Speaker 1: that's what needs to be dismantled. Mass incarceration. But all
Speaker 1: of those social ills that set people up to be incarcerated, poverty,
Speaker 1: lack of education, poor public education, poor housing, lack of housing, redlining,
Speaker 1: draconian laws that exist on the books that set people
Speaker 1: up to be violated, and you know, and and then again,
Speaker 1: the law is subjective. You know, we see people who
Speaker 1: are white get away with things that people who are
Speaker 1: black and brown cannot get away with just because of
Speaker 1: class and because of race and because of social status
Speaker 1: and all of these other things. You know, everything is
Speaker 1: subjective and it's always who you are and who you
Speaker 1: know and how much money you have. And so these
Speaker 1: are the systems that we need to reimagine so that
Speaker 1: there is equity and justice in the world in whatever
Speaker 1: ways that we can make it happen. We need to
Speaker 1: make it happen. And so that's where I come from
Speaker 1: as an abolitionist. Mm hmm. Right, just Convictions with Jason
Speaker 1: Flam is super excited and honored to have the support
Speaker 1: of a great organization like Galaxy Gives. Galaxy Gives leads
Speaker 1: the filmthropic efforts of the Novograds family. They invest in organizations, campaigns,
Speaker 1: and leaders who are directly impacted by and working to
Speaker 1: dismantle the current punitive justice system. Galaxy Gives also builds
Speaker 1: power for the community's most harmed by mass incarceration and
Speaker 1: forges transformative solutions for responding to that harm. They envision
Speaker 1: a society where the structural barriers created by racism, poverty,
Speaker 1: and inequality are no more, where instead all people have
Speaker 1: the dignity, freedom and rights needed to thrive. And your
Speaker 1: work really focuses on women, right, I mean, I think
Speaker 1: the connection between women in prison and America isn't talked
Speaker 1: about enough. Well, people have no idea, for instance, that
Speaker 1: with about four and a half percent of the world's population,
Speaker 1: we have about of the world's female prison population, and
Speaker 1: that should be a source of national shame and should
Speaker 1: be a front page headline because what is it. I mean,
Speaker 1: our American women so terrible compared to the rest of
Speaker 1: the world that they all need to be put in cages.
Speaker 1: I mean, help me out with this, because I've never
Speaker 1: understood why we do it this way. Well, again, I
Speaker 1: think it's about labor, and it's also about the ideas
Speaker 1: around punishment and who's deserving a punishment and who isn't.
Speaker 1: And whenever a state or the government can profit off
Speaker 1: of labor and human capital, they do it. I mean,
Speaker 1: this country was built on the backs of slavery, on
Speaker 1: the back to slaves, and most of the wealth in
Speaker 1: this country, you know, has been generated, you know, from
Speaker 1: the labor of poor black and brown and indigenous people.
Speaker 1: And so it's not hard to understand that. You know,
Speaker 1: when when you run out of reasons to exploit one
Speaker 1: group of people, you find another group of people to exploit.
Speaker 1: And so, you know, the war on drugs and the
Speaker 1: War on crime and the Crime Bill that establishes mandatory
Speaker 1: minimums and long sentences, and all of these drug policies
Speaker 1: of the eighties. You know what it did was it
Speaker 1: it's set up pathways for women to be part of
Speaker 1: the car sero system. You know, the crack epidemic, you know,
Speaker 1: just open the the floodgates, and women got swept up
Speaker 1: in that too, because these drug policies didn't discriminate against gender.
Speaker 1: And and then you know the crime Bial with its
Speaker 1: long sentences and and and felony murder rule and um,
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just a long history of bad, bad,
Speaker 1: bad policies that set a lot of women up to
Speaker 1: serve long sentences, to be incarcerated, to lose their children,
Speaker 1: to lose their homes, to lose to lose themselves in
Speaker 1: this system, and the revolving door was just waiting for
Speaker 1: them to return. Because parole and probation is another one
Speaker 1: of those tyrannical systems that needs to be abolished and
Speaker 1: dismantled because many times, especially in the nineties and early
Speaker 1: two thousand's, there was so many discriminatory practices and unfair
Speaker 1: practices by probation and parole where folks were getting violated
Speaker 1: and returned to a cage because they couldn't find a job,
Speaker 1: or they didn't have an address, or they tested dirty
Speaker 1: for some substance. And so, you know, thank god, a
Speaker 1: lot of people have changed those practices, and a lot
Speaker 1: of agencies across the country has changed some of those practices,
Speaker 1: but they're still, as you said, way too many women
Speaker 1: who are incarcerated and way too many people period, and
Speaker 1: pathways to incarceration for women are usually you know, relational
Speaker 1: or involved substance abuse and long histories of trauma. In
Speaker 1: addition to that, six all incarcerated women have minor children,
Speaker 1: children under the age of eighteen, and so that just
Speaker 1: it just exacerbates the school to prison pipeline and continues
Speaker 1: to use human capital as as a means of of
Speaker 1: labor and profit for states. You here's another statistic that
Speaker 1: just blows my mind. According to the Innocence Project of
Speaker 1: the female exonorees in this country, and there are many,
Speaker 1: around seventy of them. Get this, We're convicted of crimes
Speaker 1: that never even happened. There are actually things like accidents, suicides,
Speaker 1: and fabricated crimes. Just think about that for a second.
Speaker 1: It's not and not only that. When we spoke recently
Speaker 1: with Oddnan Khan, he told us that se the women
Speaker 1: who are incarcerated for homicide in California were not actually
Speaker 1: the killer in those cases. They were just with somebody
Speaker 1: who did the actual killing. That's the felony murder ru Many,
Speaker 1: many incarcerated women were not the perpetrators of the crime
Speaker 1: that they are convicted of. They may have been knowledgeable
Speaker 1: or something after the fact that they may not have
Speaker 1: known at all. They may have been in the car
Speaker 1: while a husband or a boyfriend, or a son or
Speaker 1: a brother or somebody else was committing a crime. I mean,
Speaker 1: there are so many circumstances where you are not knowledgeable
Speaker 1: of a crime. But in California, prior to I believe
Speaker 1: you know, if you had knowledge of a crime and
Speaker 1: you didn't report it or turned the person in or
Speaker 1: said anything, then you were just as guilty as the
Speaker 1: person who committed the crime, especially if someone was killed
Speaker 1: during the commission of a crime, regardless of whether there
Speaker 1: was intent to kill or not. Under the felony murder rule,
Speaker 1: you were found guilty of murder and those who were
Speaker 1: with you as well. And so there are a lot
Speaker 1: of incarcerated women in the state of California serving life
Speaker 1: without the possibility of parole, who did not commit a crime,
Speaker 1: who were not even knowledgeable of the crime, but because
Speaker 1: it was their partner and they were with them after
Speaker 1: the fact, or sometimes even before the fact. You know,
Speaker 1: oftentimes you are not knowledgeable of a crime. But in California,
Speaker 1: prior to I believe if you had knowledge of a
Speaker 1: crime and you didn't report it, or the result was
Speaker 1: they were convicted of the same crime or sometimes conspiracy
Speaker 1: to commit a crime without any real evidence. And there
Speaker 1: are many women that we fight for every day to
Speaker 1: get released because of the Felony murder rule that finally
Speaker 1: legislated so that there could be some relief for folks.
Speaker 1: But people spent forty five years in prison. And I
Speaker 1: have a number of friends who have come home recently
Speaker 1: the last couple of years, and some that are still inside.
Speaker 1: That's what I was gonna ask you, is there one
Speaker 1: person that you you know, maybe somebody who's still in
Speaker 1: or recently got out, who is sort of embodies this
Speaker 1: problem and you can put a human face on, like,
Speaker 1: is there one person that comes with your mind. First thing, well,
Speaker 1: just recently Um, we used to call her mother Mary,
Speaker 1: Mary Jones. After thirty two years, Um, you know, she's
Speaker 1: she's finally being set free. You know, she didn't commit
Speaker 1: the crime. Um. And you know, we called her mother
Speaker 1: Mary for a reason because she was this elder you know,
Speaker 1: black woman who nurtured so many of us that came
Speaker 1: in young. She was the church mother, she saying in
Speaker 1: the choir, she led the Bible studies, she prayed for us,
Speaker 1: she raised many of us in the prison. And finally,
Speaker 1: you know, the courts have recognized that she's innocent, that
Speaker 1: she did not commit a crime. And she had been
Speaker 1: saying this for thirty two years. You know, this just
Speaker 1: happened a few days ago. And so it's you know,
Speaker 1: thanks again to the Post Conviction Justice Project, you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's the Innocence Project, it's Human Rights Watches, Post
Speaker 1: Conviction Justice Project and all of these other you know,
Speaker 1: law schools that that worked to get people free, to
Speaker 1: liberate folks from you know, this punishment system where we
Speaker 1: as black and brown people, poor people, indigenous people, queer
Speaker 1: people's you know, just different people, people other than white people.
Speaker 1: You know, walk into a courtroom. It's never a jury
Speaker 1: of your peers, and you are immediately suspect and oftentimes
Speaker 1: railroade it into a jail sale or a prison sale
Speaker 1: for crimes that you did not commit. Okay, so let's
Speaker 1: talk about some of your many accomplishments and awards, because
Speaker 1: this is amazing. Pitzer College Distinguished Alumni Award, Woman of Distinction,
Speaker 1: Social Justice Champion Award, the eighteen Civil Rights and Advocacy
Speaker 1: Award from the National Council of One Black Women, and
Speaker 1: most importantly, in my opinion, you were the policy advisor
Speaker 1: for tremendously important legislative bills in California, bills that include
Speaker 1: the Incarcerated Students Bill of Rights, the Racial Justice Act
Speaker 1: of and a B and tell us more about three,
Speaker 1: which just really establishes some of the most basic human
Speaker 1: rights and dignities for incarcerated people that the rest of
Speaker 1: us take for granted. I'm talking about things like believe
Speaker 1: it or not, toothpaste and soap, to name just a couple.
Speaker 1: And we shouldn't even have needed a bill like this,
Speaker 1: but you made it happen. Yeah, there's you know, I
Speaker 1: testified in the Senate UH for three, the Dignity and
Speaker 1: Care Act, the indigen Bill because you know, I was
Speaker 1: incarcerated for twenty three years where the indigens thrust whole
Speaker 1: was one dollar, and so anyone who had one dollar,
Speaker 1: one dollar or more on their trust account was ineligible
Speaker 1: for state hygiene supplies, stamps, envelopes, you know, notary services,
Speaker 1: things like that. I mean one dollar. And so if
Speaker 1: you wanted to go to the doctor the dentist, and
Speaker 1: you had a dollar and fifty nine cents or a
Speaker 1: dollar and a penny, then you had to pay a
Speaker 1: five dollar co pay. You didn't have five dollars to
Speaker 1: pay the five dollar co pay. It didn't bar you
Speaker 1: from seeing a doctor, but what it did do was
Speaker 1: put a hold on your account for five dollars for
Speaker 1: thirty days. And most of us who are incarcerated, as
Speaker 1: you know, made very low wages, I mean pennies, pennies
Speaker 1: an hour. I myself made eight cents an hour. And
Speaker 1: if you work for eight cents an hour, which is
Speaker 1: the average pay, that's twenty dollars a month. It takes
Speaker 1: you know, sixty hours or so to earn five dollars.
Speaker 1: And so that bill was really important to me because
Speaker 1: if I made twenty dollars a month, I had to
Speaker 1: make some strategic decisions on how to spend that twenty
Speaker 1: dollars because us I didn't have anything coming from the
Speaker 1: state of California other than two hots and a lunch box.
Speaker 1: And so how how do I get washing powder, toothpaste,
Speaker 1: shampoo conditioner, feminine hygiene products? Tyler, Now, I mean you
Speaker 1: have to buy everything when you have more than a
Speaker 1: dollar on your account. And so raising that threshold from
Speaker 1: one dollar to dollars impacted eighty thousand people within c
Speaker 1: d c R eighty thousand. When those numbers came back,
Speaker 1: it blew my mind because at that time, there was
Speaker 1: a little over a hundred thousand people incarcerated in the
Speaker 1: state of California. The average person makes twenty dollars a month.
Speaker 1: So if we said it at twenty five dollars, we
Speaker 1: know that that man or that woman who's earned that
Speaker 1: twenty dollars can now send their kids something a birthday card,
Speaker 1: a graduation gift, you know, make sure that they have
Speaker 1: something to contribute to their family, or buy themselves a
Speaker 1: new pair of shoes, you know, save for that. And
Speaker 1: so it just it just blew my mind that thinking
Speaker 1: about what I wish I would have had when I
Speaker 1: was in prison, impacted eighty thousand people. That's the power
Speaker 1: we have, and and that's the kind of legislation we
Speaker 1: can create when we are thinking outside of ourselves. You know.
Speaker 1: It was it just it blows my mind every time
Speaker 1: I I think about that particular bill. And when I
Speaker 1: testified in the Senate about it, I shared with them
Speaker 1: having to choose between you know, going to canteen the
Speaker 1: commissary to buy Chris Smuth cards to send my kids
Speaker 1: or toothpaste. This is what it gets down to, you know.
Speaker 1: And then you know, folks want to chastise you and
Speaker 1: condemn you and shame you when you can't communicate with
Speaker 1: your kids. When you don't you know, send Christmas cards,
Speaker 1: a Birthday cards. Your kids grow up thinking that you
Speaker 1: don't love them when you can't afford a Christmas card
Speaker 1: or birthday car. And so this was one of the
Speaker 1: game changers for me. So you end up, after doing
Speaker 1: all this incredible of a work, you end up getting
Speaker 1: a full pardon well this year, right from Governor Newsom.
Speaker 1: I did in January. January, Tell me about that. How
Speaker 1: did that take place and what did it mean to you? Wow?
Speaker 1: I'm still processing it because it. You know, when I
Speaker 1: decided to apply for executive clemency, you always think you'll
Speaker 1: get it, but you just don't know when, and you
Speaker 1: just think, you know, I'll give it a shot, because
Speaker 1: you know, I want to be free. And although, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think freedom is one of those things, like rehabilitation,
Speaker 1: that you have to do for yourself, you know, but
Speaker 1: there there's something about receiving a piece of paper from
Speaker 1: the state where you committed a felony, a crime, to
Speaker 1: say that you've been forgiven. I think there's a there's
Speaker 1: a freedom and a liberation, and that that's a little
Speaker 1: different from something that you can give to yourself, especially
Speaker 1: when you are so remorseful and and for for what
Speaker 1: what you've done, and there's there's no way you can
Speaker 1: change what you've done. You can't change it. It's done.
Speaker 1: And so for the last thirty five years, since since
Speaker 1: you know, I took a life, I've been trying to
Speaker 1: get to the place where I could for really forgive myself,
Speaker 1: not just say it, but really do it and and
Speaker 1: know that it's you know, it's not I don't know,
Speaker 1: it's it's just so deep I can't even articulate it.
Speaker 1: Um And so it's it was just it was just different.
Speaker 1: It was just different. When when I applied, I you know,
Speaker 1: it was like I deserved this, I've worked hard, blah
Speaker 1: blah blah. But when I answered the phone and it
Speaker 1: was the governor saying like, it's Gavin Newsom, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm like, this is crazy. I didn't even believe it
Speaker 1: was Gavin Newsom. I kept saying, you know, you sound
Speaker 1: like Gavin Newsom, but how do I know you're Gavin Newsom?
Speaker 1: And he kept saying it's Gavin Newsom. And you know,
Speaker 1: then I knew what it was. And there was a
Speaker 1: shift and my spirit because I knew not only had
Speaker 1: I have been pardoned, but that the governor took time
Speaker 1: out of his schedule to call me. And his words
Speaker 1: to me were, I wanted to call you to let
Speaker 1: you know that I am granting your executive clemency and
Speaker 1: I hope that you rest easier tonight. So for him
Speaker 1: to know how painful this has been in my life
Speaker 1: and to try to give me a little bit of
Speaker 1: peace and and rest by granting my executive clemency and
Speaker 1: forgive me forgetting emotional, It's it was just really powerful. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it's hard to imagine you're not getting emotional.
Speaker 1: I'm getting emotional, And you know, I hope this does
Speaker 1: allow you to sleep more easily and fly even higher um,
Speaker 1: which I think it probably will. So I wanted to
Speaker 1: ask you what can people do if they want to follow,
Speaker 1: or better yet, join your work your activism. Is there
Speaker 1: a website that they can go to or what would
Speaker 1: you recommend they do? Yeah, there's there's two organizations that
Speaker 1: I would like to promote, and you know, of course
Speaker 1: that's Project Rebound and they can find that online if
Speaker 1: they want to give. And then College and Community Fellowship.
Speaker 1: Both of these organizations work to provide access to higher
Speaker 1: education for justice involved individuals and you know, it's transforming
Speaker 1: people's lives and changing communities. And if you're on the
Speaker 1: West Coast, you know you've got a Project Rebound own.
Speaker 1: Across the state of California, there's fourteen campus programs from
Speaker 1: Humbo to San Diego. Find the one nearest you in
Speaker 1: the closest c SU. And if you're here on the
Speaker 1: East coast, no College and Community Fellowship has been doing
Speaker 1: this work for twenty two years, supporting justice involved women
Speaker 1: in their families. Find the transformative power of higher education.
Speaker 1: And so you can give if you go to College
Speaker 1: and Community dot org and click donate and we'll put
Speaker 1: those links in our bio for our listeners. And now
Speaker 1: before we close out the show, I want to mention
Speaker 1: that next week my guest will be criminal justice professor
Speaker 1: Dr Niki Jackson, who has been doing some incredible work
Speaker 1: in the wrongful conviction space. Okay, so Ramarlon Raston, here
Speaker 1: comes the closing of our show. It's in two parts,
Speaker 1: and first off, the magic one question. It works like this,
Speaker 1: if I had a magic wand and I wish I did,
Speaker 1: and I could grant you one wish, what would that be?
Speaker 1: I think the one you know, on a philosophical level,
Speaker 1: you know, we're talking magic wand and all of that.
Speaker 1: You know, just love, you know, love thy neighbor, love
Speaker 1: thy neighbor, um. You know, it's the golden rule. If
Speaker 1: we could practice that, really practice that, believe in that,
Speaker 1: and translate that to one another and receive it. You know,
Speaker 1: that's what I will use my magic wand for to
Speaker 1: create a loving world that's beautiful. And that's a great wish.
Speaker 1: And I'm gonna go ahead and grant you that wish.
Speaker 1: As soon as I find my magic one, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: I'm gonna waive it and we'll make it hank together.
Speaker 1: And then the final segment of our show is called
Speaker 1: words of Wisdom. You've already shared so many, but I'm
Speaker 1: hoping there's some still left. I'm going to turn my
Speaker 1: microphone off, picked back in my chair, close my eyes,
Speaker 1: and just listen to anything else you want to share
Speaker 1: with me, and are wonderful, um and very woke audience.
Speaker 1: Well to all the woke people out there, We're never
Speaker 1: as woke as we think we are. We can always
Speaker 1: do more, love more, give more, develop different languages so
Speaker 1: that we can speak to people better. And you know,
Speaker 1: we just need to be kinder to one another and
Speaker 1: more forgiving. So those are my kind of words of wisdom,
Speaker 1: as those are things that I need to do for myself. No,
Speaker 1: none of us are ever as woke, are as cool,
Speaker 1: or as you know, savvy as we think we are.
Speaker 1: We're all just doing the best that we can, and
Speaker 1: I think we can do a little bit better on
Speaker 1: most days. Yeah, thank you for listening to Righteous Convictions
Speaker 1: with Jason Flom. I'd like to thank our production team,
Speaker 1: Connor Hall, Annie Chelsea, Jeff Kleber, and Lila Robinson and
Speaker 1: Kevin Warnas. The music in this production was supplied by
Speaker 1: three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Follow us on Instagram, Facebook,
Speaker 1: and Twitter at Lava for Good. You can also follow
Speaker 1: me on both TikTok and Instagram at it's Jason Flom.
Speaker 1: Righteous Convictions with Jason Flomer is a production of Lava
Speaker 1: for Good podcast and association with Signal Company Number one