WEBVTT - #199 Jason Flom with Al Cleveland 0:00:02.840 --> 0:00:05.560 In the late eighties and early nineties, the crack epidemic 0:00:05.680 --> 0:00:07.760 was in full swing in many parts of the country, 0:00:07.880 --> 0:00:11.600 including Lorain, Ohio, where Sunset Boulevard was known as the 0:00:11.680 --> 0:00:14.960 place to buy and smoke crack without being hassled by 0:00:15.000 --> 0:00:18.959 the authorities. The infamously corrupt Lorraine Police Department had a 0:00:19.000 --> 0:00:22.759 relationship with a drug dealer, addict and notorious informant named 0:00:22.760 --> 0:00:26.120 William Avery Senior, who ran the scene on Sunset Boulevard 0:00:26.239 --> 0:00:29.640 and he didn't appreciate New Yorkers encroaching on his turf. 0:00:30.080 --> 0:00:33.479 On August eighth, nineteen ninety one, the bodies of Marsha 0:00:33.560 --> 0:00:37.600 Blakeley and Floyd Epps were discovered separately. The tire marks 0:00:37.640 --> 0:00:40.080 on their heads were at least in part, to blame 0:00:40.120 --> 0:00:43.280 for their deaths. After the cases went cold, two thousand 0:00:43.360 --> 0:00:46.800 dollars reward drew the attention of William Avery Senior, who 0:00:46.840 --> 0:00:50.600 brought in his teenage son to falsely accuse four men 0:00:50.640 --> 0:00:54.560 from New York, including Al Cleveland. The fact that al 0:00:54.680 --> 0:00:56.680 Cleveland was in New York at the time of the 0:00:56.760 --> 0:01:00.120 murder and that Avery Junior recanted his statement at the 0:01:00.120 --> 0:01:03.720 first of the four trials did not stop prosecutor Jonathan 0:01:03.840 --> 0:01:08.040 Rosenbaum from going ahead with all four of these sham trials. 0:01:08.360 --> 0:01:12.720 The Ohio criminal legal system continuously ignored William Avery Junior's 0:01:12.760 --> 0:01:17.360 recantations for twenty five long years, leaving parole as Al 0:01:17.440 --> 0:01:22.520 Cleveland's only avenue for relief. This is Wrongful Conviction with 0:01:22.680 --> 0:01:38.840 Jason Flamm. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. 0:01:38.920 --> 0:01:42.280 That's me, and today you're going to hear a story 0:01:42.319 --> 0:01:47.360 that defies description. I'm going to first of all, introduce 0:01:47.800 --> 0:01:50.160 first Jennifer Passion urge around. It's been on the show 0:01:50.200 --> 0:01:53.800 before as the deputy director of the Ohio Innocence Project. Jennifer, 0:01:53.800 --> 0:01:55.160 Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction. 0:01:55.560 --> 0:01:56.720 Thank you, it's good to be back. 0:01:56.920 --> 0:02:01.360 And Al Cleveland. I'm just going to say this. Al 0:02:01.440 --> 0:02:06.120 has lived about seven or eight lifetimes so far, and 0:02:06.400 --> 0:02:09.720 he survived twenty five years in prison for a gruesome 0:02:09.760 --> 0:02:13.520 double murder that happened in Ohio while he was in Queens, 0:02:13.560 --> 0:02:17.800 New York. That's just the beginning. So without further ado, 0:02:17.880 --> 0:02:20.360 Al Cleveland, I'm so happy you're here. I'm sorry you 0:02:20.360 --> 0:02:21.799 have to be here, but I'm happier here. 0:02:22.120 --> 0:02:25.040 Hey, I'm here. Man I'm with Jason plump. You got 0:02:25.040 --> 0:02:27.720 to realize, Jason, like, I'm fresh home, like I've just 0:02:27.800 --> 0:02:30.240 been home maybe five months, and I sat on the 0:02:30.320 --> 0:02:33.840 rack visualizing this. So here we are. Man, I'm excited, 0:02:33.880 --> 0:02:35.880 I'm pumped up, and thank you for doing this. Thank 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:36.520 you for doing this. 0:02:37.040 --> 0:02:38.440 I don't even know what to say. That means. That 0:02:38.520 --> 0:02:40.880 means more to me than you could even know. And 0:02:41.240 --> 0:02:45.000 so al going back to the beginning, you grew up 0:02:45.200 --> 0:02:48.480 such a fascinating story. You were a hip hop artist, 0:02:49.120 --> 0:02:50.960 and not only that, but you were very close friends 0:02:51.000 --> 0:02:54.560 with ll cool J back in Hollis Queens. Tell us 0:02:54.560 --> 0:02:54.960 about that. 0:02:55.600 --> 0:02:58.440 Yeah, so he grew up right around the corner from me. 0:02:58.520 --> 0:03:02.200 So we were always in the basement, you know, making 0:03:02.240 --> 0:03:06.680 mixtapes and making songs, and like I seen his assent 0:03:07.120 --> 0:03:11.000 from the basement to you know, a national stage. You know, 0:03:11.240 --> 0:03:13.160 used to go with him on tour, like if he 0:03:13.240 --> 0:03:16.600 was in any of the surrounding states, we would get 0:03:16.639 --> 0:03:19.639 in the vent and go wherever he was and get 0:03:19.680 --> 0:03:23.440 backstage passes and you know, just have tons of fun. 0:03:23.520 --> 0:03:25.640 It was just tons of fun seeing that rise. 0:03:26.000 --> 0:03:28.760 Yeah, you witnessed literally the birth of a legend. And 0:03:28.800 --> 0:03:31.200 here's your dear friend. I mean that rumor has it 0:03:31.240 --> 0:03:33.400 that you actually painted his room. 0:03:33.680 --> 0:03:36.839 I mean so crazy, I did, I did, I did, 0:03:37.280 --> 0:03:39.160 and he owes me thirty bucks still for it. 0:03:39.480 --> 0:03:42.920 Oh my god, with interest. That's incredible. In his nineteen 0:03:43.000 --> 0:03:45.920 ninety eight book I Make My Own Rules, ll actually 0:03:45.960 --> 0:03:48.720 shouts you out and credits your artwork actually as an 0:03:48.720 --> 0:03:52.240 early inspiration of his. So that's one. Okay, that's just one. 0:03:52.960 --> 0:03:55.880 You ain't heard nothing yet. Stick with us, Okay. So 0:03:56.200 --> 0:03:59.200 another childhood friend of yours is Damon John, and this 0:03:59.600 --> 0:04:03.440 I think highlights how crazy and random all this shit 0:04:03.640 --> 0:04:06.200 is because I think it's fair to say you all 0:04:06.280 --> 0:04:09.720 had the same potential, but the system grabbed you and 0:04:09.800 --> 0:04:14.640 those guys went on to become success stories while you 0:04:14.720 --> 0:04:17.440 were being held captained by the state for a crime 0:04:17.480 --> 0:04:19.560 you didn't commit. And for those of you who don't know, 0:04:19.680 --> 0:04:22.560 Damon John is the founder and CEO of Fubu. So 0:04:22.600 --> 0:04:24.520 tell us about Damon just quickly and how you come 0:04:24.560 --> 0:04:25.560 to know him in the beginning. 0:04:25.800 --> 0:04:27.839 Oh man, me and Damon we went to the same 0:04:28.160 --> 0:04:31.880 Catholic school together in our neighborhood, from maybe second or 0:04:31.920 --> 0:04:34.840 third grade all the way up. We go on adventures, 0:04:34.880 --> 0:04:37.760 bike rides, camping with my dad. That was my guy. 0:04:38.120 --> 0:04:40.200 I wrote a book about it, actually a little children's book, 0:04:40.360 --> 0:04:41.160 What Don't you Do? 0:04:41.240 --> 0:04:43.200 I feel like you? Okay, but we're going to get 0:04:43.200 --> 0:04:45.640 into that later. So to set the stage, we're back 0:04:45.680 --> 0:04:49.920 in the eighties and early nineties. The crack epidemic was 0:04:50.040 --> 0:04:54.560 in full swing, and you were now going back and 0:04:54.600 --> 0:04:58.520 forth to Northeast Ohio. Right, it seems so random. Why 0:04:58.520 --> 0:05:00.640 would a kid from Queen's end up in Loreno, Ohio. 0:05:01.200 --> 0:05:03.520 All Right, So since I'm talking to you, Flam and 0:05:03.520 --> 0:05:05.920 you got experience in the music business, I want to 0:05:05.920 --> 0:05:08.359 just go back a little bit to help you and 0:05:08.440 --> 0:05:12.000 help everybody understand. So late eighties, my sister gets killed 0:05:12.279 --> 0:05:15.479 by some skinheads in Detroit, and it was a big thing. 0:05:15.839 --> 0:05:20.400 My mom was protesting, but me, I internalized this thing 0:05:20.440 --> 0:05:23.440 and just kind of like went into my art and 0:05:23.480 --> 0:05:26.320 at the time I was doing graffiti and you know 0:05:26.440 --> 0:05:28.640 art on that level, trying to get into galleries and 0:05:28.680 --> 0:05:32.280 trying to make my way, but it wasn't happening. So 0:05:32.480 --> 0:05:35.679 I started promoting parties, doing shows, ran into a guy 0:05:35.839 --> 0:05:37.960 who had a studio. We started going to the studio. 0:05:38.000 --> 0:05:40.120 I found out Hey, I got some talent, I can rap, 0:05:40.320 --> 0:05:42.240 I can do this, I seen ll do it. Let 0:05:42.279 --> 0:05:44.640 me take this route. So we started going to the 0:05:44.680 --> 0:05:48.080 studio and making songs, and we started forming a vision 0:05:48.160 --> 0:05:51.279 of what we wanted to do. But the problem was Jason. 0:05:51.320 --> 0:05:54.000 Back then, you know, you had to get records pressed up, 0:05:54.000 --> 0:05:55.919 you had to get a song mastered, you had to 0:05:55.960 --> 0:05:57.599 go through all these steps, and I didn't have the 0:05:57.600 --> 0:06:01.200 money for that. At every stage, we kept finding ourselves broke. 0:06:02.160 --> 0:06:05.400 So ninety ninety one, a friend of mine gets in 0:06:05.440 --> 0:06:08.120 touch with me. He had left New York to go 0:06:08.160 --> 0:06:11.320 to Ohio with a few other dudes, and they were 0:06:11.680 --> 0:06:14.880 into the drug scene, low level, but he was incarcerated 0:06:14.880 --> 0:06:17.240 and he asked me to help him with the bond money. 0:06:17.760 --> 0:06:19.280 At the time, I didn't have it. I only had 0:06:19.279 --> 0:06:22.080 my rent money. So he enticed me a little more 0:06:22.120 --> 0:06:24.159 and told me he would double my money. Just come 0:06:24.160 --> 0:06:25.880 on out, give him a few days, and he would 0:06:25.880 --> 0:06:28.200 have the money back for me. And at the time 0:06:28.240 --> 0:06:30.720 I wanted to explore the music scene out here. I said, 0:06:30.760 --> 0:06:32.479 you know what the heck man, and I did it. 0:06:32.680 --> 0:06:35.560 I sent him the money came out here. That's how 0:06:35.600 --> 0:06:38.240 I wound up out here. He took me to a project. 0:06:38.360 --> 0:06:40.840 You know, he's showing me how he does his thing. 0:06:41.400 --> 0:06:44.960 You know, gave me the little package to hold. Police comes, 0:06:44.960 --> 0:06:47.960 they chase him, arrest him. I have the little thing 0:06:48.000 --> 0:06:50.920 I dished, a little thing. I wound up meeting some guys. 0:06:51.240 --> 0:06:53.479 Went to a guy's house who wound up being the 0:06:53.520 --> 0:06:56.080 guy who wound up setting us up. But I went 0:06:56.120 --> 0:06:58.440 to his house. He asked me if I had anything, 0:06:58.480 --> 0:07:00.960 and I'm like, I kind of do. He asked me 0:07:00.960 --> 0:07:02.960 about from New York. Do I know my code defending. 0:07:03.000 --> 0:07:05.320 I'm like, yeah, I know him. Yeah. He's like, if 0:07:05.320 --> 0:07:06.960 you got something, I can sell it. So I went 0:07:07.279 --> 0:07:10.080 and retrieved this stuff. You start breaking it down with him. 0:07:10.080 --> 0:07:12.440 I didn't even know the prices were haggling, and he 0:07:13.000 --> 0:07:15.680 takes what he buys from me, goes right out into 0:07:15.680 --> 0:07:19.360 the street and he's stopping cars like he's a traffic controller, 0:07:19.680 --> 0:07:21.920 is selling his thing. And maybe an hour and a 0:07:21.920 --> 0:07:24.360 half later, the whole little bag of stuff I had 0:07:24.520 --> 0:07:27.000 was it was gone. I had about twenty two hundred 0:07:27.000 --> 0:07:29.680 dollars in my pocket. For the next thirty to forty days, 0:07:29.680 --> 0:07:32.040 I just went on a mission to get my startup capital. 0:07:32.360 --> 0:07:34.440 So I mean, I know it was wrong, but that 0:07:34.640 --> 0:07:36.760 was I had a vision. I had a vision, Jason. 0:07:36.960 --> 0:07:39.560 And I can't leave out the fact that when you 0:07:39.600 --> 0:07:42.560 look at the history of hip hop music, there's so 0:07:42.680 --> 0:07:46.360 many artists, legendary artists who grew up the same way 0:07:46.600 --> 0:07:48.520 you did, some of them from the same area you 0:07:48.600 --> 0:07:51.000 came from. And he ended up in the crack game 0:07:51.080 --> 0:07:53.240 because that was the option that was available at the time, 0:07:53.480 --> 0:07:55.240 like you said, to get startup capital or whatever it 0:07:55.280 --> 0:07:59.000 may be. And just by fate, they didn't get arrested. 0:08:00.040 --> 0:08:01.720 And many people know the names, I mean, because these 0:08:01.760 --> 0:08:03.720 people are they're not secretive about it. When I had 0:08:03.720 --> 0:08:05.640 Meek Bill on the podcast and I asked him this 0:08:05.800 --> 0:08:08.320 question how many people he met in prison that were 0:08:08.360 --> 0:08:10.360 as talented as he is, and he said he couldn't 0:08:10.360 --> 0:08:11.760 even count. How many. 0:08:11.840 --> 0:08:14.360 You know, I've met so many guys in there, Jason, 0:08:14.440 --> 0:08:17.200 who the visionaries. You know, they're the bread winners and 0:08:17.240 --> 0:08:19.400 their families. And I just want to make it clear. 0:08:19.480 --> 0:08:22.239 I just want to make sure I share this message 0:08:22.280 --> 0:08:24.400 that if you do have a dream, if you do 0:08:24.480 --> 0:08:26.760 have a vision, try to find out how to do 0:08:26.800 --> 0:08:28.760 a business plan, try to find out how to go 0:08:28.880 --> 0:08:32.640 to a bank or ask people family members to invest 0:08:32.840 --> 0:08:36.720 in your dream instead of taking that route and putting 0:08:36.720 --> 0:08:39.680 yourself at risk to come to the penitentiary because it's 0:08:39.800 --> 0:08:45.120 full of guys with dreams that fall through. So I 0:08:45.200 --> 0:08:46.000 just wanted to share that. 0:08:46.080 --> 0:08:48.560 No, I'm glad you did. And Jennifer, I want to 0:08:48.640 --> 0:08:51.920 talk about the Lorraine Police Department because of course Loraine, 0:08:51.920 --> 0:08:54.040 Ohio was where I was spending his time in those days, 0:08:54.040 --> 0:08:57.400 and they were known for sexual abuse and brutality, which 0:08:57.440 --> 0:09:00.400 is sadly a problem that exists to this day. So 0:09:00.520 --> 0:09:03.480 many different police departments around this country. Can you paint 0:09:03.480 --> 0:09:06.040 a picture of what was going on back then and 0:09:06.240 --> 0:09:11.360 there and what was the deal with their unsavory relationship 0:09:11.400 --> 0:09:14.480 with this shady character William Avery sor. 0:09:14.520 --> 0:09:17.560 Yeah, there was a huge crack problem. Similar to lots 0:09:17.559 --> 0:09:20.360 of other areas in the country. The police had people 0:09:20.920 --> 0:09:25.600 like William Avery Senior, who, at least according to Avery, 0:09:25.880 --> 0:09:28.600 could kind of do some favors as a CI and 0:09:28.640 --> 0:09:31.200 then be left alone and do whatever you wanted. So 0:09:31.240 --> 0:09:34.480 there seemed to be sort of this unofficial arrangement between 0:09:34.520 --> 0:09:36.400 the cops and some of the people there. So it 0:09:36.400 --> 0:09:38.520 seemed to me that when folks from New York came 0:09:38.559 --> 0:09:41.480 in and started sort of messing with that system. It 0:09:41.520 --> 0:09:44.319 did not go over well with either the residents or 0:09:44.360 --> 0:09:44.880 the police. 0:09:45.240 --> 0:09:48.560 You had just gotten involved in this business, so to speak. 0:09:48.640 --> 0:09:52.040 Al were you aware of what the Lorraine police department 0:09:52.120 --> 0:09:52.520 was up to? 0:09:53.240 --> 0:09:57.360 No, I wasn't. Actually I found out years later through 0:09:57.360 --> 0:10:00.480 our investigation that one I'm a co defendent, was the 0:10:00.520 --> 0:10:02.320 one who invited me out here. He was kind of 0:10:02.360 --> 0:10:04.800 like a target. We actually found a picture with him 0:10:04.800 --> 0:10:07.440 with a bullseye in their police files like here, I 0:10:07.480 --> 0:10:09.640 am just waltz right into Lorraine. 0:10:09.760 --> 0:10:12.480 I had no idea you were sitting duck. Let's face it. 0:10:12.520 --> 0:10:14.600 And as part of the story centers around a guy 0:10:14.720 --> 0:10:19.720 named William Avery Senior, who was a prolific paid informant 0:10:19.760 --> 0:10:22.640 at the time, and he received special treatment as informants 0:10:22.720 --> 0:10:26.160 do in exchange for his help. He lived on Sunset 0:10:26.200 --> 0:10:29.680 Boulevard in Lorain, Ohio with his son, William Avery Junior, 0:10:30.040 --> 0:10:33.040 who he had introduced to crack when the kid was 0:10:33.080 --> 0:10:35.520 just fourteen years old, and this had become this sort 0:10:35.520 --> 0:10:38.440 of neighborhood spot where people would come to smoke crack, 0:10:38.559 --> 0:10:40.680 and the police looked the other way of course, because 0:10:40.679 --> 0:10:42.880 he was helping them out while lying for them on 0:10:43.000 --> 0:10:46.120 cases as well as maybe providing accurate information once in 0:10:46.120 --> 0:10:48.160 a while, have no idea. And then there was Marsha Blakeley. 0:10:48.360 --> 0:10:51.040 Well, Marsha Blakely was the murder victim, and she was 0:10:51.080 --> 0:10:53.880 a young woman who was addicted to crack and other 0:10:53.960 --> 0:10:57.760 drugs and was known on the streets for churning tricks, 0:10:58.000 --> 0:11:02.080 selling stolen goods to feed her addiction. She was just 0:11:02.120 --> 0:11:05.439 a user who, for reasons that I still don't quite understand, 0:11:05.920 --> 0:11:08.800 ended up brutally murdered in this whole situation. 0:11:09.360 --> 0:11:12.520 Yeah, so she and a guy named Floyd Epps turned 0:11:12.559 --> 0:11:15.120 up dead and this is, you know, one of the 0:11:15.120 --> 0:11:19.800 most brutal crimes I've ever heard of. On August eighth, 0:11:19.840 --> 0:11:21.959 nineteen eighty one, at nine eighteen in the morning, Marsha 0:11:22.040 --> 0:11:24.600 Blakeley's body was discovered in an alley behind the West 0:11:24.640 --> 0:11:27.880 Coast Shopping Center in the rain. She had twenty five 0:11:27.920 --> 0:11:30.960 stab wounds, fractured ribs, a broken neck, a slit throat, 0:11:31.080 --> 0:11:34.439 and torture wounds on her neck and head. And if 0:11:34.480 --> 0:11:36.480 that wasn't enough, her head had been run over by 0:11:36.559 --> 0:11:39.800 a car twice now earlier that same day at one 0:11:39.880 --> 0:11:43.720 twenty five am, Floyd Epps's body was found nearby and 0:11:43.800 --> 0:11:45.839 his head had also been run over by a car. 0:11:46.160 --> 0:11:48.480 So this is bizarre because police believed that the murders 0:11:48.520 --> 0:11:50.760 were related. Anyone would, of course, I mean, you don't 0:11:50.840 --> 0:11:53.439 hear stories too often people being the heads run over 0:11:53.440 --> 0:11:57.200 by cars, thankfully, But no arrests were made in the 0:11:57.320 --> 0:12:00.920 Epps killing, and no arrests have been made to this date, 0:12:01.080 --> 0:12:04.800 which is the whole separate problem. But when nothing was 0:12:04.800 --> 0:12:07.800 happening with these cases, the cops offered a two thousand 0:12:07.880 --> 0:12:09.960 dollars reward for information. So now we go all the 0:12:09.960 --> 0:12:12.960 way to over a month later, September tenth, William Avery 0:12:13.120 --> 0:12:17.760 said he had information and they told him that the 0:12:17.800 --> 0:12:20.920 reward would only be given to someone with first hand knowledge. 0:12:21.120 --> 0:12:24.559 Yeah, so William Avery sor takes his son, William Avery 0:12:24.640 --> 0:12:26.800 Junior in the next day to meet with the cops 0:12:26.840 --> 0:12:29.200 to say what you know, he knew about the crime. 0:12:29.679 --> 0:12:32.800 But his story as it was told that day does 0:12:32.840 --> 0:12:36.359 not match up to what he eventually said in the trials. 0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:39.559 And in addition, it was just a bizarre meeting where 0:12:40.080 --> 0:12:42.800 you know, the cops are interviewing William Avery Junior about 0:12:42.840 --> 0:12:46.679 supposedly witnessing this urter, and yet his father sat in 0:12:46.800 --> 0:12:49.960 on the entire interview and said like, yeah, I'm here 0:12:50.000 --> 0:12:52.839 to remind him of the things that he forgot, which 0:12:54.200 --> 0:12:56.760 just raised all kinds of red flags. But yet that's 0:12:56.960 --> 0:12:57.880 that's what they went with. 0:12:58.320 --> 0:13:01.000 So when Avery Sor and j went to the police, 0:13:01.120 --> 0:13:04.480 Junior implicated four individuals and the death of Marsha Blakely. 0:13:04.559 --> 0:13:08.640 That four men were Lenworth Edwards, Benson Davis, John Edwards, 0:13:08.640 --> 0:13:12.200 and Alfred Cleveland, men that he claimed were drug dealers 0:13:12.200 --> 0:13:12.679 from New York. 0:13:12.720 --> 0:13:12.880 Now. 0:13:12.920 --> 0:13:15.319 Avery Junior went on to say that he owed you 0:13:15.520 --> 0:13:18.199 Al money and in order to pay off the debt. 0:13:18.640 --> 0:13:21.840 Avery Junior claimed that Al took him to Epps's apartment 0:13:21.880 --> 0:13:25.120 where Marcia Blakely was, and that Al told him to 0:13:25.200 --> 0:13:29.120 assault her. Avery Junior claimed to refuse because he knew 0:13:29.120 --> 0:13:32.640 Marshall Blakeley. So, according to this crazy tale from Avery Junior, 0:13:32.679 --> 0:13:36.080 the three other men assaulted her for twenty minutes while 0:13:36.120 --> 0:13:38.880 he and Al watched. Avery continued on that he went 0:13:38.960 --> 0:13:42.000 back to his apartment after the assault, but said that 0:13:42.080 --> 0:13:45.640 Al came by after and told him, quote, we took 0:13:45.720 --> 0:13:48.439 care of the junkie. We knocked her off. 0:13:48.679 --> 0:13:52.760 And thanks just started rolling from there. Although they never 0:13:52.800 --> 0:13:55.640 really found any other evidence at all implicating these guys. 0:13:55.679 --> 0:13:57.880 But they can't find something that doesn't exist because they 0:13:57.880 --> 0:14:01.440 weren't absolute. So we aren't even been fucking ohio, right, 0:14:01.480 --> 0:14:03.959 what tell us where you were during this week and 0:14:04.080 --> 0:14:05.640 how we know that that's really true? 0:14:05.800 --> 0:14:07.880 All right? So, yeah, I was on probation at the time. 0:14:07.920 --> 0:14:10.040 I didn't realize when I was going to trial. I 0:14:10.080 --> 0:14:14.120 wasn't sure because it was like four years later that 0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:16.760 that was the day that I went to my probation officer, 0:14:16.800 --> 0:14:19.480 but I knew. I went back to New York to 0:14:19.520 --> 0:14:22.600 see my probation officer and I was in New York 0:14:22.720 --> 0:14:25.280 with Damon John, who had a van business at the time. 0:14:25.320 --> 0:14:27.640 I went to buy a TV and I needed him 0:14:27.680 --> 0:14:30.120 to come bring the TV to my house. And this 0:14:30.200 --> 0:14:32.280 is all, you know, the seventh, the eighth, when these 0:14:32.280 --> 0:14:34.320 people were killed, and when I was going to trial, 0:14:34.520 --> 0:14:37.040 I had to receipt for this TV. You know, we 0:14:37.120 --> 0:14:39.480 got those times. You know, he came to trial and 0:14:39.640 --> 0:14:41.720 prosecuted try to dog him out like he was some 0:14:41.840 --> 0:14:44.960 young punk. You know, he tried to discredit him and 0:14:45.120 --> 0:14:45.760 it was crazy. 0:14:46.120 --> 0:14:47.920 I mean, the state acknowledged that he had seen the 0:14:47.920 --> 0:14:51.080 probation officer in New York on August seventh, but they 0:14:51.200 --> 0:14:54.840 just said, well, he must have decided he was going 0:14:54.920 --> 0:14:57.320 to either drive or fly to Ohio to come and 0:14:57.320 --> 0:14:59.960 commit this brutal murder against this woman. He didn't even know. 0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:02.200 But it was just the word of one person, that 0:15:02.360 --> 0:15:02.600 was it. 0:15:02.960 --> 0:15:06.040 So four people were victims of this compromise to say 0:15:06.080 --> 0:15:08.280 the least paid informant and it was a two thousand 0:15:08.280 --> 0:15:09.800 dollars award, and then they paid him again. 0:15:10.120 --> 0:15:12.480 Yeah, he got the two thousand dollars reward for coming 0:15:12.640 --> 0:15:15.840 forward initially, which was interesting because the award was listed 0:15:15.920 --> 0:15:18.920 for anyone would get it, leading to an arrest. They 0:15:19.080 --> 0:15:21.840 arrest Lynworth Edwards, one of the co defendants, so he 0:15:21.880 --> 0:15:25.240 gets the two thousand dollars. They then schedule a deposition 0:15:25.320 --> 0:15:28.560 of William Avery Junior claiming that his life is in 0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:31.760 danger or something, and he gets paid again, and then 0:15:31.760 --> 0:15:33.400 he ends up getting paid more so at the end 0:15:33.400 --> 0:15:35.400 of the bowl saga, he ended up getting paid around 0:15:35.440 --> 0:15:37.280 five thousand dollars for his testimony. 0:15:37.640 --> 0:15:40.440 Right we're talking nineteen ninety one dollars is a lot 0:15:40.440 --> 0:15:41.400 more money than it is today. 0:15:41.480 --> 0:15:44.040 Yeah, absolutely, to someone who was a crack addict who 0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:46.600 you know, on the stand said he never really had 0:15:46.600 --> 0:15:48.200 a job, so this was his income. 0:15:48.560 --> 0:15:52.080 So Avery Junior changed and recanted his story multiple times 0:15:52.160 --> 0:15:55.920 after the initial interrogation, but his claims anyway were enough 0:15:56.360 --> 0:15:59.640 and the authorities were happy to use them to convict 0:15:59.760 --> 0:16:02.920 four men. Avery Junior was supposed to testify in the 0:16:03.000 --> 0:16:06.000 first trial because guys were tried separately, Right, Lynworth Edwards 0:16:06.080 --> 0:16:06.880 was the first trial. 0:16:07.280 --> 0:16:11.200 Yes, so at Lynworth Edward's first trial, this was the 0:16:11.200 --> 0:16:14.120 first of the four to be tried. Yeah, William Avery 0:16:14.200 --> 0:16:19.160 Junior basically demanded ten thousand dollars to keep giving his testimony, 0:16:19.240 --> 0:16:22.120 which you know, of course, the prosecutor said, well, no, 0:16:22.200 --> 0:16:25.040 we're not paying you anything. So at this point Avery 0:16:25.120 --> 0:16:29.160 Junior then says, well, I'm not going to testify. Everything 0:16:29.200 --> 0:16:32.840 I said before was a lie. So yeah, they end 0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:36.040 up throwing him in jail and charging him with contempt. 0:16:36.080 --> 0:16:38.720 But he later comes back and it's the second trial 0:16:38.760 --> 0:16:43.680 for Lynworth and says, well, the reason I flip flopped 0:16:43.720 --> 0:16:47.240 before was because I was threatened in the jail if 0:16:47.280 --> 0:16:50.600 I went forward with telling what I know about this crime, 0:16:51.040 --> 0:16:53.600 and so that's how they got away with putting on 0:16:53.720 --> 0:16:57.040 his testimony in Lynworth's second trial and then in the 0:16:57.080 --> 0:17:01.480 rest of the defendant's trials. However, we found out later 0:17:02.160 --> 0:17:06.880 years later, was that those threats never happened. We found 0:17:06.960 --> 0:17:10.200 records showing that Avery Jr. He actually got in trouble 0:17:10.280 --> 0:17:13.879 for making false reports about getting threatened. And so the 0:17:13.920 --> 0:17:15.640 whole case was just built on a lie. 0:17:15.680 --> 0:17:21.240 Basically a lot of life. Well yeah, several but and 0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:25.400 al your trial, you were the third one tried, right, 0:17:25.520 --> 0:17:28.560 and your trial lasted six days. 0:17:29.600 --> 0:17:34.680 When the jury came in, I turned around to look 0:17:34.720 --> 0:17:45.040 at them, and I saw it was hatred. Bro I 0:17:45.400 --> 0:17:50.359 saw a hatred and my mom was there, a couple 0:17:50.359 --> 0:17:55.840 of supporters. And when the judge read the verdict, he 0:17:55.960 --> 0:18:00.359 told me that I'm sentenced to life, and I told 0:18:00.440 --> 0:18:07.080 him I didn't do it. And damn the screech when 0:18:07.160 --> 0:18:15.960 he said guilty. The screech came from a mother's voice. 0:18:17.920 --> 0:18:27.360 I knew it took a part. Yes, apart from all 0:18:27.400 --> 0:18:29.280 I can do is try to turn around comforter her 0:18:29.480 --> 0:18:32.880 like it's gonna be okay, It's gonna be all right. 0:18:41.800 --> 0:18:45.560 This episode is underwritten by the AIG pro Bono Program. 0:18:45.760 --> 0:18:49.280 AIG is a leading global insurance company, and for over 0:18:49.320 --> 0:18:53.120 a decade, the AIG pro Bono Program has provided thousands 0:18:53.160 --> 0:18:56.240 of hours of free legal services and other support to 0:18:56.320 --> 0:19:00.800 nonprofit organizations and individuals most in need. More recently, the 0:19:00.880 --> 0:19:04.560 program added criminal and social justice reform as a key 0:19:04.640 --> 0:19:05.840 pillar of its mission. 0:19:10.960 --> 0:19:11.320 Yeah. 0:19:11.359 --> 0:19:14.479 So I went to a high security prison they call 0:19:14.560 --> 0:19:18.439 them close camps where they send people that you know, 0:19:18.840 --> 0:19:21.960 done some of society's worse crimes. 0:19:21.960 --> 0:19:25.639 They're there, and those first six or seven years that 0:19:25.840 --> 0:19:30.240 kind of blurried to me because I was so focused 0:19:30.320 --> 0:19:35.399 on fighting and educating myself. I had to totally like 0:19:35.880 --> 0:19:39.360 re educate myself because everything I had thought I believed 0:19:40.240 --> 0:19:43.480 turned out to be alive about the system and everything. 0:19:43.640 --> 0:19:45.439 You know, I had to learn about myself, you know. 0:19:45.480 --> 0:19:48.000 I learned about my history, learned about the history of 0:19:48.040 --> 0:19:52.080 this country, learn about you know, other people who suffered injustices, 0:19:52.640 --> 0:19:58.040 and tried to understand how these things happened. You know, 0:19:58.080 --> 0:20:00.400 it wasn't just me, and I started learning like, man, 0:20:00.440 --> 0:20:04.120 this is a big problem. So I just got on 0:20:04.160 --> 0:20:08.600 a mission to better myself and better educate myself so 0:20:09.359 --> 0:20:12.760 I could learn how to write better, learn how to 0:20:12.840 --> 0:20:15.960 communicate better to get support. You know, I had to 0:20:15.960 --> 0:20:18.000 be able to write people. It's like you're going on 0:20:18.040 --> 0:20:20.520 a campaign and you just got to learn how to 0:20:20.560 --> 0:20:25.680 articulate yourself. At the same time growing spiritually, working out, 0:20:26.119 --> 0:20:28.400 trying to be an impact on the guys in there, 0:20:28.440 --> 0:20:30.080 because I started seeing that, you know, a lot of 0:20:30.080 --> 0:20:33.280 guys weren't educated at all, like no GEDs and a 0:20:33.320 --> 0:20:36.159 lot of illiteracy. So I put myself in a block 0:20:36.480 --> 0:20:40.040 where I could tutor guys and just help out in 0:20:40.080 --> 0:20:42.280 that way. I knew it was other guys that were innocent, 0:20:42.320 --> 0:20:46.080 and if they were illiterate, they didn't stand a chance. 0:20:46.280 --> 0:20:48.119 You know, it's tons of guys in there for stuff 0:20:48.160 --> 0:20:50.240 they didn't do, but they don't have any support. They 0:20:50.280 --> 0:20:52.400 don't know how to explain their situation. They don't even 0:20:52.440 --> 0:20:55.320 really know what happened. They don't really understand the language 0:20:55.320 --> 0:20:58.560 that was used on them in the courtroom, just sitting 0:20:58.600 --> 0:21:01.360 there trying to fight their way through the everyday life 0:21:01.400 --> 0:21:03.840 of prison. So I just had to try to be 0:21:03.840 --> 0:21:06.240