Speaker 1: In the late eighties and early nineties, the crack epidemic
Speaker 1: was in full swing in many parts of the country,
Speaker 1: including Lorraine, Ohio, where Sunset Boulevard was known as the
Speaker 1: place to buy and smoke crack without being hassled by
Speaker 1: the authorities. The infamously corrupt Lorraine police department had a
Speaker 1: relationship with a drug dealer addict and a notorious informant
Speaker 1: named William Avery Senior, who ran the scene on Sunset
Speaker 1: Boulevard and he didn't appreciate New Yorkers encroaching on his turf.
Speaker 1: On August, the bodies of Marcia Blakeley and Floyd Epps
Speaker 1: were discovered separately. The tire marks on their heads were
Speaker 1: at least in part to blame for their deaths. After
Speaker 1: the cases went cold, two thousand dollar reward drew the
Speaker 1: attention of William Avery Senior, who brought in his teenage
Speaker 1: son to falsely accuse four men from New York, including
Speaker 1: Al Cleveland. The fact that al Cleveland was in New
Speaker 1: York at the time of the murder and that Avery
Speaker 1: Junior recanted his statement at the first of the four
Speaker 1: trials did not stop Prosecutor Jonathan Rosenbaum from going ahead
Speaker 1: with all four of these sham trials. The Ohio criminal
Speaker 1: legal system continuously ignored William Averred Jr's recantations for twenty
Speaker 1: five long years, leaving parole as Al Cleveland's only avenue
Speaker 1: for relief. This is Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam. Welcome
Speaker 1: back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flom. That's me, and
Speaker 1: today you're gonna hear a story that defies description. I'm
Speaker 1: going to first of all, introduce first. Jennifer Passion Persund
Speaker 1: has been on the show before, is the deputy director
Speaker 1: of the Ohio Innocence Project. Jennifer, Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction.
Speaker 1: Thank you, it's good to be back. And Al Cleveland,
Speaker 1: Um No, I'm just gonna say this. Al has lived
Speaker 1: about seven or eight lifetimes so far. Um, and he
Speaker 1: survived twenty five years in prison for a gruesome double
Speaker 1: murder that happened in Ohio while he was in Queens,
Speaker 1: New York. That's just the beginning. So without further ado,
Speaker 1: Al Cleveland, I'm so happy you're here. I'm sorry you
Speaker 1: have to be here, but I'm happy you're here. Hey,
Speaker 1: I'm here. I'm with Jason Blot you gotta realized, Jason,
Speaker 1: Like I'm fresh home, like I've just been home maybe
Speaker 1: five months, and I sat on the wreck visualizing this.
Speaker 1: So here we are, and I'm excited. I'm pumped up,
Speaker 1: and thank you for doing this. Thank you for doing this.
Speaker 1: I don't even know what to say. That means. That
Speaker 1: means more to me than you couldn't even know. And
Speaker 1: so al going back to the beginning, you grew up
Speaker 1: such a fascinating story. You were a hip hop artist,
Speaker 1: and not only that, but you were very close friends
Speaker 1: with L. L Cool J back in Hollis Queen's about that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so um, he grew up right around the corner from me.
Speaker 1: So we were always in the basement, you know, making
Speaker 1: mix tapes and making songs, and like I've seen his
Speaker 1: ascent from the basement to you know, a national stage.
Speaker 1: You know, used to go with him on tour, like
Speaker 1: if he was in any of the surrounding states, we
Speaker 1: would get in the van and go wherever he was
Speaker 1: and get backstage passes and you know, just have tons
Speaker 1: of fun. It was just tons of fun seeing that rise. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you witnessed literally the birth of a legend. And here's
Speaker 1: your dear friend I mean that rumor has it that
Speaker 1: you actually painted his room. I mean, it's so crazy.
Speaker 1: I did, I did, I did, and he owes me
Speaker 1: thirty bucks still for it. Oh my god, with interest.
Speaker 1: That's incredible. Um. In his book I Make My Own
Speaker 1: Rules l L actually shouts you out and credit to
Speaker 1: your artwork actually as an early inspiration of his. So
Speaker 1: that's one. Okay, that's just one. You ain't heard nothing yet.
Speaker 1: Stick with us, Okay. So another childhood friend of yours
Speaker 1: is Damon John, and this I think highlights how crazy
Speaker 1: and random all this ship is because I think it's
Speaker 1: fair to say you all had the same potential, but
Speaker 1: the system grabbed you and those guys went on to
Speaker 1: become success stories while you were being held captive by
Speaker 1: the state for a crime you didn't commit. And for
Speaker 1: those of you who don't know, Damon John is the
Speaker 1: founder and CEO of Fubu. So tell us about Damon
Speaker 1: just quickly and how you come to know him in
Speaker 1: the beginning. Oh, man, me and Damon we went to
Speaker 1: the same Catholic school together in our neighborhood from maybe
Speaker 1: second or third grade. All the way, uh, we're going adventures,
Speaker 1: bike rides, camping with my dad. That was my guy.
Speaker 1: I wrote a book about it, actually, a little children's book,
Speaker 1: What don't you Do? I feel like you? Okay, but
Speaker 1: we're gonna get into that later. So to set the stage,
Speaker 1: we're back in the eighties and early nineties. The crack
Speaker 1: epidemic was in full swing, and you were now going
Speaker 1: back and forth to Northeast Ohio. Right, it seems so random.
Speaker 1: Why would a kid from Queen's end up in Loren, Ohio. Alright, So,
Speaker 1: since I'm talking to youth from and you've got experience
Speaker 1: in the music business, I want to just go back
Speaker 1: a little bit to help you and help everybody understand.
Speaker 1: So late eighties, my sister gets killed by some skinheads
Speaker 1: in Detroit, and it was a big thing. My mom
Speaker 1: was protesting and but me, I internalized this thing and
Speaker 1: just kind of like went into my art. And at
Speaker 1: the time, I was doing graffiti and you know art
Speaker 1: on that level, trying to get into galleries and trying
Speaker 1: to make my way, but it wasn't happening. So I
Speaker 1: started promoting parties, doing shows, ran into a guy who
Speaker 1: had a studio. We started going to the studio. I
Speaker 1: found out, Hey, I got some talent. I can rap,
Speaker 1: I can do this. I see l L do it.
Speaker 1: Let me take this route. So we started going to
Speaker 1: the studio and making songs, and we started forming a
Speaker 1: vision of what we wanted to do. But the problem
Speaker 1: was Jason. Back then, you know, you had to get
Speaker 1: records pressed up, you had to get a song mastered,
Speaker 1: you had to go through all these steps, and I
Speaker 1: didn't have the money for that. At every stage, we
Speaker 1: kept finding ourselves os broke. So ninety one, a friend
Speaker 1: of mine gets in touch with me. He had left
Speaker 1: New York to go to Ohio with a few other
Speaker 1: dudes and they were into the drug scene, low level,
Speaker 1: but he was incarcerated and he asked me to help
Speaker 1: him with the bond money. At the time, I didn't
Speaker 1: have it. I only had my rep money. So he
Speaker 1: enticed me a little more and told me he would
Speaker 1: double my money. Just come on out, give him a
Speaker 1: few days and he would have the money back for me.
Speaker 1: And at the time I wanted to explore the music
Speaker 1: scene out here. I said, you know what the heck man,
Speaker 1: and I did it and I sent him the money
Speaker 1: came out here. That's how I wound up out here.
Speaker 1: He took me to a project. You know, he's showing
Speaker 1: me how he does his thing. You know, gave me
Speaker 1: the little package to hold. Police comes, they chase him,
Speaker 1: arrest him. I have the little thing. I ditched, a
Speaker 1: little thing. I wind up meeting some guys. Went to
Speaker 1: a guy's house who wind up being the guy who
Speaker 1: wanted setting us up. But I went to his house.
Speaker 1: He asked me if I had anything, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: I kind of do. He asked me about from New York.
Speaker 1: Do I knows my code defendant? Like yeah, I know him. Yeah.
Speaker 1: He's like, if you got something, I can sell it.
Speaker 1: So I went and retrieved this stuff. You start breaking
Speaker 1: it down when him I didn't even know. The prices
Speaker 1: were haggling, and he takes what he buys from me,
Speaker 1: goes right out into the street and he's stopping cars
Speaker 1: like he's a traffic controller, is selling his thing. And
Speaker 1: maybe hour and a half later, the whole little bag
Speaker 1: of stuff I had was it was gone. I had
Speaker 1: about in my pocket for the next thirty to forty days.
Speaker 1: I just went on a mission to get my startup capital. So,
Speaker 1: I mean, I know it was wrong, but that was
Speaker 1: I had a vision. I had a vision, Jason, and
Speaker 1: I can't leave out the fact that when you look
Speaker 1: at the history of hip hop music, there's so many artists,
Speaker 1: legendary artists who grew up the same way you did,
Speaker 1: some of them from the same area you came from,
Speaker 1: and you ended up in the crack game because that
Speaker 1: was the option that was available at the time, like
Speaker 1: you said, to get startup capital or whatever it may be.
Speaker 1: And just by fate, they didn't get arrested. Um and
Speaker 1: many people know the names I mean, because these people
Speaker 1: are not they're not secretive about it. When I had
Speaker 1: Mike Bail on the podcast and I asked him this
Speaker 1: question how many people he met in prison that were
Speaker 1: as talented as he is, and he said he couldn't
Speaker 1: even count. How many. You know, I've met so many
Speaker 1: guys in there, Jason, who the visionaries? You know, they're
Speaker 1: the breadwinners and their families. And I just want to
Speaker 1: make it clear. I just want to make sure I
Speaker 1: share this message that if you do have a dream,
Speaker 1: if you do have a vision, try to find out
Speaker 1: how to do a business plan. Try to find out
Speaker 1: how to go to a bank or ask people family
Speaker 1: members to invest in your dream. Instead of taking that
Speaker 1: route and putting yourself at risk to come to the
Speaker 1: penitentiary because it's full of guys with dreams that fall through.
Speaker 1: So I just wanted to share that. No, I'm glad
Speaker 1: you did. And Jennifer, I want to talk about the
Speaker 1: Lorraine Police Department because of course Loren Ohio was where
Speaker 1: I was spending his time in those days, and they
Speaker 1: were known for sexual abuse and brutality, which is sadly
Speaker 1: a problem that exists to this day and so many
Speaker 1: different police departments around this country. Can you paint a
Speaker 1: picture of what was going on back then and there
Speaker 1: and what was the deal with their unsavory relationship with
Speaker 1: this shady character, William Avery Senior. Yeah, there was a
Speaker 1: huge crack problem. Similar to lots of other areas in
Speaker 1: the country. The police had people like William Avery Senior, who,
Speaker 1: at least according to Avery, could kind of do some
Speaker 1: favors as a see I and then be left alone
Speaker 1: and do whatever you wanted. So there seemed to be
Speaker 1: sort of this unofficial arrangement between the cops and some
Speaker 1: of the people there. So it seemed to me that
Speaker 1: when folks from New York came in and started sort
Speaker 1: of messing with that system. It did not go over
Speaker 1: well with either the residents or the police. You had
Speaker 1: just gotten involved in this business so to speak out.
Speaker 1: Were you aware of what the Lorraine Police Department was
Speaker 1: up to? No, I wasn't actually um I found out
Speaker 1: years later to our investigation that Code have been in
Speaker 1: was the one who invited me out here. He was
Speaker 1: kind of like a target. We actually found a picture
Speaker 1: with him with a bull's on in their police files
Speaker 1: like here, I am just waltz right into Lorraine. I
Speaker 1: had no idea. You're sitting duck, let's face it. And
Speaker 1: as part of the story centers around a guy named
Speaker 1: William Avery Sr. Who was a prolific paid informant at
Speaker 1: the time, and he received special treatment as informants do
Speaker 1: in exchange for his help. He lived on Sunset Boulevard
Speaker 1: in Lorraine, Ohio with his son, William Avery Jr. Who
Speaker 1: he had introduced to crack when the kid was just
Speaker 1: fourteen years old, and this had become this sort of
Speaker 1: neighborhood spot where people would come to smoke crack and
Speaker 1: the police looked the other way, of course, because he
Speaker 1: was helping them out while lying for them on cases.
Speaker 1: As well as maybe providing accurate information once in a while.
Speaker 1: I have no idea. And then there was Marcia Blakeley. Well,
Speaker 1: Marcia Blakely was the murder victim. I'm she was a
Speaker 1: young woman who was addicted to crack and other drugs
Speaker 1: and was known on the streets for turning tricks selling
Speaker 1: stolen goods to feed her addiction. She was just a
Speaker 1: user who, for reasons that I still don't quite understand,
Speaker 1: ended up brutally murdered in this whole situation. Yes, so
Speaker 1: she and a guy named Floyd Epps turned up dead,
Speaker 1: and this is, you know, one of the most brutal
Speaker 1: crimes I've ever heard of. On August eighth, thanking anyone
Speaker 1: at in the morning, Marsha Blakely's body was discovered in
Speaker 1: an alley behind the Westgate Shopping Center in the rain.
Speaker 1: She had twenty five stab wounds, fractured ribs, of broken neck,
Speaker 1: a slit throat, and torture wounds on her neck and head.
Speaker 1: And if that wasn't enough, her head had been run
Speaker 1: over by a car twice now. Earlier that same day
Speaker 1: at am, Floyd Epps's body was found nearby, and his
Speaker 1: head had also been run over by a car. So
Speaker 1: this is bizarre because police believe that the murders were related.
Speaker 1: Anyone would of course, I mean, you don't hear stories
Speaker 1: too often people being the heads run over by cars, thankfully,
Speaker 1: but no arrests were made in the Epps killing, and
Speaker 1: no arrested and made to this date, which is the
Speaker 1: whole separate problem. But with nothing was happening with these cases,
Speaker 1: the cops wire offered a two thousand dollar reward for information.
Speaker 1: So now we go all the way to over a
Speaker 1: month later, September ten, William Avery Senior said he had
Speaker 1: information and they told him that the reward would only
Speaker 1: be given to someone with firsthand knowledge. Yeah, so William
Speaker 1: every Senior takes his son, William Avery Junior in the
Speaker 1: next day to meet with the cops to say what
Speaker 1: you know, he knew about the crime. But his story
Speaker 1: as it was told that day does not match up
Speaker 1: to what he eventually said in the trials. And in addition,
Speaker 1: it was just a bizarre meeting where you know, the
Speaker 1: cops are interviewing William Avery Jr. About supposedly witnessing this burder,
Speaker 1: and yet his father sat in on the entire interview.
Speaker 1: And said like, yeah, I'm here to remind him of
Speaker 1: the things that he forgot, which just raised all kinds
Speaker 1: of red flags. But yet that's that's what they went with.
Speaker 1: So when Every Senior and Junior went to the police,
Speaker 1: Junior implicated four individuals and the death of Marsha Blakeley.
Speaker 1: That four men were Lenworth Edwards, Benson Davis, John Edwards,
Speaker 1: and Alfred Cleveland, men that he claimed were drug dealers
Speaker 1: from New York. Now. Avery Junior went on to say
Speaker 1: that he owed you Al money and in order to
Speaker 1: pay off the debt. Avery Junior claimed that Al took
Speaker 1: him to Apps's apartment where Marcia Blakely was and that
Speaker 1: Al told him to assault her. Avery Junior claimed to
Speaker 1: refuse because he knew Marsha Blakely. So, according to this
Speaker 1: crazy tale from Every Junior, the three other men assaulted
Speaker 1: her for twenty minutes while he and Al watched. Avery
Speaker 1: continued on that he went back to his apartment after
Speaker 1: the assault, but said that Al came by after and
Speaker 1: told him, quote, we took care of the junkie, We
Speaker 1: knocked her off, and thanks just started rolling from there.
Speaker 1: Although they never really found any other evidence at all,
Speaker 1: implicating these guys, but he can't find stuff that doesn't
Speaker 1: exist because they weren't exactly So you were aren't even
Speaker 1: in Ohio? Right? What tell us where you were during
Speaker 1: this week? And how we know that that's really true?
Speaker 1: All right? So, yeah, I was on probation at the time.
Speaker 1: I didn't realize when I was going to trial. I
Speaker 1: wasn't sure because it was like four years later that
Speaker 1: that was the day that I went to my probation officer,
Speaker 1: but I knew. I went back to New York to
Speaker 1: see my probation officer and I was in New York
Speaker 1: with Damon John, who had a van business at the time.
Speaker 1: I went to buy a TV and I needed him
Speaker 1: to come bring the TV to my house. And this
Speaker 1: is all, you know, the seventh, the eighth, when these
Speaker 1: people were killed, and when I was going to trial,
Speaker 1: I had to receive for this TV. You know, we
Speaker 1: got those times. You know. He came to trial and
Speaker 1: prosecuted trying to dog him out like he was some
Speaker 1: young punk. You know, he tried to discredit him and
Speaker 1: it was crazy. I mean, the stage acknowledged that he
Speaker 1: had seen the probation officer in New York on August seven.
Speaker 1: But they just said, well, he must have decided he
Speaker 1: was gonna either drive or fly to Ohio to come
Speaker 1: and commit this brutal murder against this woman. He didn't
Speaker 1: even know. But it was just the word of one person,
Speaker 1: that was it. So four people were victims of this
Speaker 1: compromise to say the least paid informant and it was
Speaker 1: a two award and then they paid him again. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he got the two thousand dollar award for coming forward initially,
Speaker 1: which was interesting because the award was listed for anyone
Speaker 1: would get it, leading to an arrest. They arrest lyne
Speaker 1: Worth Edwards, one of the co defendants. He gets the
Speaker 1: two thousand dollars. They then schedule a deposition of William
Speaker 1: Avery Jr. Claiming that his life is in danger or something,
Speaker 1: and he gets paid again, and then he ends up
Speaker 1: getting paid more. So at the end of the bowl saga,
Speaker 1: he ended up getting paid around five thousand dollars for
Speaker 1: his testimony. Right, we're talking five thousand more money than
Speaker 1: it is today. Yeah, absolutely, to someone who was a
Speaker 1: crack addict who you know, on the stand said he
Speaker 1: never really had a job, so this was his income.
Speaker 1: So Avery Junior changed and recanted his story multiple times
Speaker 1: after the initial interrogation, but his claims anyway were enough
Speaker 1: and the authorities were happy to use them to convict
Speaker 1: four are men. Avery Junior was supposed to testify the
Speaker 1: first trial because guys were tried separately. Right, Lyndworth Edwards
Speaker 1: was the first trial. Yes, so at Lyndworth Edwards first trial,
Speaker 1: this was the first of the four to be tried. Yeah,
Speaker 1: William Avery Jr. Basically demanded ten thousand dollars to keep
Speaker 1: giving his testimony, which you know, of course, the prosecutor said, well, no,
Speaker 1: we're not paying you anything. So at this point, Avery Jr.
Speaker 1: Then says, well, I'm not going to testify. Everything I
Speaker 1: said before was a lie. So yeah, they end up
Speaker 1: throwing him in jail and charging him with contempt. But
Speaker 1: he later comes back and it's the second trial for
Speaker 1: Linworth and says, well, the reason I flip flopped before
Speaker 1: was because I was threatened in the jail if I
Speaker 1: went forward with telling what I know about this crime.
Speaker 1: And so that's how they got away with putting on
Speaker 1: his testimony in Lyndberth's second trial and then in the
Speaker 1: rest of the defendants trials. However, we found out later
Speaker 1: years later, was that those threats never happened. We found
Speaker 1: records showing that Avery Jr. He actually got in trouble
Speaker 1: for making false reports about getting threatened. And so the
Speaker 1: whole case was just built on a live basically a
Speaker 1: lot of lies, um but um and out your trial.
Speaker 1: You were the third one tried right, and your trial
Speaker 1: lasted six days. When the jury came in, I turned
Speaker 1: around to look at them and I saw it was hatred.
Speaker 1: Bro So I hatred and uh my mom was there
Speaker 1: a couple of supporters. And when the judge read the verdict,
Speaker 1: he told me I'm sentenced to life. And I told
Speaker 1: me I didn't do it. You know, damn the screech
Speaker 1: when he said guilty, the screech king m mother's voice.
Speaker 1: I knew it took a part, the yank, a serious
Speaker 1: part from All I can do is trying to turn around,
Speaker 1: comfort her like it's gonna be okay, It's gonna be
Speaker 1: all right. This episode is underwritten by the A I
Speaker 1: G pro Bono Program. A I G is a leading
Speaker 1: global insurance company, and for over a decade, the A
Speaker 1: I G pro Bono Program has provided thousands of hours
Speaker 1: of free legal services and other support to nonprofit organizations
Speaker 1: and individuals most in need. Or recently, the program added
Speaker 1: criminal and social justice reform as a key pillar of
Speaker 1: its mission. Yeah. So, um, I went to a high
Speaker 1: security prison they call them close camps where they send
Speaker 1: people that you know, done some of society's worst crimes there.
Speaker 1: And those first six or seven years that kind of
Speaker 1: blurried to me because I was so focus on fighting
Speaker 1: and educate myself. I had to totally like re educate
Speaker 1: myself because everything I had thought I believed turned out
Speaker 1: to be alive about the system and everything. You know,
Speaker 1: I had to learn about myself. You know. I learned
Speaker 1: about my history, learned about the history of this country,
Speaker 1: learned about you know, other people who suffered injustices, and
Speaker 1: tried to understand how these things happened. You know, it
Speaker 1: wasn't just me, and I started learning like, man, this
Speaker 1: is a big problem. So I just got on a
Speaker 1: mission to better myself and better educate myself so I
Speaker 1: could learn how to write better, learn how to communicate better,
Speaker 1: to get support. You know, I had to be able
Speaker 1: to write people. It's like you're going on a campaign
Speaker 1: and you just gotta learn how to articulate yourself at
Speaker 1: the same time growing spiritually, working out, trying to be
Speaker 1: an impact on the guys in there, because I started
Speaker 1: seeing that, you know, a lot of guys who weren't
Speaker 1: educated at all, like no g ds and a lot
Speaker 1: of illiteracy. So I put myself in a block where
Speaker 1: I can tutor guys and just help out in that way.
Speaker 1: I knew it was other guys that were innocent, and
Speaker 1: if they were illiterate, they didn't stand a chance. You know,
Speaker 1: tons of guys in there for stuff they didn't do,
Speaker 1: but they don't have any support. They don't know how
Speaker 1: to explain their situations. They don't even really know what happened.
Speaker 1: They don't really understand the language that was used on
Speaker 1: in the courtroom, that just sitting there trying to fight
Speaker 1: their way through the everyday life of prison. So I
Speaker 1: just had to try to be an impact in there.
Speaker 1: I wasn't going to allow what happened to me to
Speaker 1: make me bitter, make me angry, because I saw that
Speaker 1: it's directly affects your health. So I had to make
Speaker 1: my mind up to you know, understand forgiveness and trying
Speaker 1: to understand that maybe these people made the mistakes. Maybe
Speaker 1: they really thought we did do this, you know, but
Speaker 1: I found out later on. This is what gets me angry, man,
Speaker 1: is that they knew it was other people and other suspects.
Speaker 1: They will own these guys, trail man, and these are
Speaker 1: people that we're finding out other people that committed the crime,
Speaker 1: and they were on that track, but just wanted us
Speaker 1: just focus on us, man, and went forward with a
Speaker 1: full story at preschool. It could have poked holes in
Speaker 1: this guy's story, but they moved forward with it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's extraordinary to me that you and others
Speaker 1: have found a way to not only find this spiritual
Speaker 1: grace or whatever you want to call it, but also
Speaker 1: to overcome the best word I can think of this
Speaker 1: incredible hardship is not even I can't find the right where.
Speaker 1: But it's worth noting that Al was convicted about five
Speaker 1: years after the crime was committed all the way, and
Speaker 1: that same year there was a motion for a new
Speaker 1: trial based on an Affidavid from Jeremiah abdul at Charlton Al.
Speaker 1: Who was he and why was his affi David significant?
Speaker 1: So this was a few years after my conviction. I
Speaker 1: run into this guy who says he had some information
Speaker 1: that he's been trying to share and had in fact
Speaker 1: shared with police, and he was the last person to
Speaker 1: see Marsha Blakeley. At least he alleged he was, you know,
Speaker 1: put her into the car with two guys to exchange
Speaker 1: for drugs. I guess he was like pimping, so to speak,
Speaker 1: and he put her in the car with these guys.
Speaker 1: So the judge did give us a hearing based on
Speaker 1: his affidavit. Anytime somebody files an affidavit, you have to
Speaker 1: come to testify to the truthfulness of the affidavit. But
Speaker 1: when we get to the hearing, my lawyer wasn't even prepared,
Speaker 1: didn't call him, didn't subpoena, and lo and behold, I
Speaker 1: found out this same prosecutor had indicted her for some
Speaker 1: some stuff in her office, you know, stuff that they
Speaker 1: were going through, and had her under indictment at the
Speaker 1: time of that hearing. So she wasn't in the right mind.
Speaker 1: And the judge denied the hearing based on her unpreparedness.
Speaker 1: And she was a good attorney, I mean, she she fought,
Speaker 1: she believed in me, but she couldn't go up against
Speaker 1: these guys. Man, they were too influential. It seems to
Speaker 1: me that there were any number of times when the
Speaker 1: state had not just the opportunity, but the obligation to
Speaker 1: right this wrong, but like it often does, instead it
Speaker 1: sort of got under its shell like a turtle and
Speaker 1: deflected any new information or evidence to protect this wrongful
Speaker 1: conviction or these for wrong for convictions. Yeah, out did
Speaker 1: his sort of regular direct appeals which didn't go anywhere.
Speaker 1: And then later Avery Jr. You know, the only guy
Speaker 1: that put him at the scene, he recanted and admitted
Speaker 1: that he made the whole thing up. What's interesting about
Speaker 1: that is it took a long time for Al's family
Speaker 1: to track down Avery Junior. He kind of lived off
Speaker 1: the grid and it was hard to find him. But
Speaker 1: once they did and he admitted, you know that he
Speaker 1: he had lied in this. What we later found out
Speaker 1: was that that wasn't the first time he recanted. He
Speaker 1: actually recanted a couple of years before that to an
Speaker 1: FBI agent in Detroit, just completely out of the blue
Speaker 1: and on his own. Nobody from the state ever got
Speaker 1: ahold of Al or any of his attorneys to let
Speaker 1: him know that. So at that point there was no
Speaker 1: evidence left and the states admitted that in filings before
Speaker 1: that without Avery Jr. There's no case against al. So
Speaker 1: this was before Ohio Innocence Project and I got involved
Speaker 1: in the case. But he went back to state court
Speaker 1: with this sworn statement in affidavit from Avery Junior. And
Speaker 1: in the state court they finally eventually held a hearing
Speaker 1: where they called him in to testify. Well, they read
Speaker 1: him his rights on the stand, trying to prosecute him
Speaker 1: with perjury in the four different trials. If he proceeded
Speaker 1: to recant on the stand and he said, well, I'm
Speaker 1: not going to prison for thirty years, took the fifth
Speaker 1: and walked out. Now, the only reasonable conclusion you could
Speaker 1: draw from that was that he was going to testify
Speaker 1: that he lied at the trial because he wasn't in
Speaker 1: any danger if he was going to suddenly say he
Speaker 1: was telling the truth at the trial, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1: But in any case, he walks outside and there's an
Speaker 1: interview with a reporter right afterwards where he says, dude's innocent,
Speaker 1: but I'm not going to prison for it. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: his silence spoke volumes absolutely, and if they were interested
Speaker 1: in justice, they would have let him testify. So yeah,
Speaker 1: then he lost there, and then we ended up in
Speaker 1: federal court, and that's where I kind of came in.
Speaker 1: We know how difficult the federal court is, unfortunately, due
Speaker 1: to the chances of success in federal court are basically
Speaker 1: the same as a snowballs chance in hell. But tell
Speaker 1: us what you did, how you did it, and how
Speaker 1: the hell you finally managed to bring him home is
Speaker 1: a miracle. So we filed it in federal court, and
Speaker 1: the district court had said that we couldn't go forward
Speaker 1: with the habeas case because there's this statute of limitations
Speaker 1: for of one year, and long story short, they said
Speaker 1: we were too late. So we filed an appeal because
Speaker 1: there's this exception if you can show that someone is
Speaker 1: actually innocent, and that's what we did with the recantation
Speaker 1: from avery. And then we had evidence from the alibi
Speaker 1: witnesses and additional alibi witnesses as well. So the state,
Speaker 1: you know, had poked holes in Al's alibi a trial
Speaker 1: by saying, well, he could have driven or flown here
Speaker 1: after the times we knew he was in New York. Well,
Speaker 1: we had additional witnesses that we found that proved that
Speaker 1: Al was in New York at the time the crime happened,
Speaker 1: or so close in time to it that unless he
Speaker 1: could time travel, he could not have possibly gone back
Speaker 1: to Ohio. So based on those things, we convinced the
Speaker 1: six Circuit that we had shown that he was actually innocent.
Speaker 1: That didn't mean that he got to go home. That
Speaker 1: just meant that we got the right to actually pursue
Speaker 1: the habeas claims in the district court. So I mean
Speaker 1: in federal court you have to make federal constitutional claims.
Speaker 1: So we were making federal claims of Brady violations where
Speaker 1: the state had hit evidence and also that they had
Speaker 1: intentionally put on false evidence from Avery that they knew
Speaker 1: was false, and also claimed like in effective assistance of
Speaker 1: trial counsel for failing to find some of these additional
Speaker 1: alibi witnesses. And then we also made a claim based
Speaker 1: on actual innocence and said, you know, he has a
Speaker 1: federal constitutional right to not be imprisoned if he's actually innocent,
Speaker 1: although interestingly, the U. S. Supreme Court even to this
Speaker 1: day has not expressly recognized that that's a federal constitutional
Speaker 1: right to not be in prison and if you're innocent.
Speaker 1: So we had this hearing and then we lost I mean,
Speaker 1: I can't even describe how I felt when the notification
Speaker 1: came in. It came over email and I saw it,
Speaker 1: and I think I just about fell out of my chair.
Speaker 1: You know, Losing the appeals in this case has been
Speaker 1: I think the hardest thing I've had to deal with professionally.
Speaker 1: It's still boggles my mind and infuriates me and saddens
Speaker 1: me all at the same time. And then, because of
Speaker 1: the weirdness of habeas law, we weren't allowed to appeal directly.
Speaker 1: We had to ask for permission to appeal. And then
Speaker 1: the Sixth Circuit, which was the same court that had
Speaker 1: said we had put forward a case showing that al
Speaker 1: was actually innocent, then denied us the right to appeal
Speaker 1: and said we didn't even have the right to appeal,
Speaker 1: which I still can't explain that. I don't know how
Speaker 1: you say, well, it looks like he's actually innocent, then
Speaker 1: get more evidence supporting that, and then just say, well,
Speaker 1: never mind, we're not going to hear claim anymore. But
Speaker 1: that's what happened. That's our system, ladies and gentlemen. The
Speaker 1: Sixth Circuits said, yeah, you're innocent, but no, we're not
Speaker 1: going to give you a new trial. Furthermore, the Supreme
Speaker 1: Court has said that actual innocence doesn't necessarily provide a
Speaker 1: basis for relief. I think it was Scalia who made
Speaker 1: that awful statements. And you know, we should all be
Speaker 1: reviled by this, like what are you talking about? Like
Speaker 1: what the fuck are you talking about? That actual innocence
Speaker 1: is not a basis for relief. Yes it is. Everybody
Speaker 1: knows this, and yet that's not the way it works here.
Speaker 1: It's like procedure is more important than justice. Is basically
Speaker 1: what it comes down to, and it's madness. It's absolute madness.
Speaker 1: And we're here, Alice, here in the flesh, as a
Speaker 1: living example of just how wrong all of this is.
Speaker 1: But before we get to the close into the show,
Speaker 1: I want to talk about one other, absolutely extraordinary aspect
Speaker 1: of your life, and that is your wife and family.
Speaker 1: It's beautiful. In all this darkness and misery, this woman,
Speaker 1: who I look forward to meeting some day, stood by you.
Speaker 1: How is that even possible? Years We did an interview
Speaker 1: yesterday and I asked her junior interview, what would make
Speaker 1: a woman make such a huge sacrifice in her life,
Speaker 1: and she just said, man, love, I mean, it was
Speaker 1: very powerful and this woman loves me man like. That's
Speaker 1: why I made that song Jennifer about you, guys, and
Speaker 1: I'm telling you all through the song like love can
Speaker 1: do all things. Yeah, I had Damon John as a
Speaker 1: friend and he did Rise while I was in prison
Speaker 1: and helped out with attorney fees where he could and
Speaker 1: where I needed him to. But it wasn't money. It
Speaker 1: was the love of people, was a love of my wife.
Speaker 1: It was a love of family members who supported me.
Speaker 1: It was a love of Jennifer and then Innocence Project
Speaker 1: and it's just me saying things. So I want to
Speaker 1: share that. You know, I'll go by the name of
Speaker 1: Deacon Cleveland. It's called Welcome Back, and it's awesome. Thanks
Speaker 1: for all of them prayers, Thanks for all of your
Speaker 1: thoughts while I was up in there. Appreciate you to
Speaker 1: water while I was doing. I'm so happy that your
Speaker 1: talents will finally be put to use in the world.
Speaker 1: So everyone, please make sure you scroll down. We'll have
Speaker 1: all of this length in the bio. And don't forgive
Speaker 1: my wife in that books. She's sitting right here with me.
Speaker 1: Three Strands, one Core, A Couple's Guide to Understanding Incarceration
Speaker 1: for couples and families going through in conseration, if they
Speaker 1: need some help on how to navigate that terrain and
Speaker 1: make it through and possibly even thrive in love, then
Speaker 1: get the book. It's our way of serving that community.
Speaker 1: So three strands, one chord, Couple's Gods to Understanding Incarceration,
Speaker 1: ROBERTA and Alpha Cleveland, thank you for real man, those
Speaker 1: that the Ohio Innocence Project, Jennifer rannelm and Morgan Jassy
Speaker 1: in Virginia and uh Jason Flam and Lorie Pushing, praying,
Speaker 1: my wife, my kids, never complaining once more? Was the
Speaker 1: house this crazy crazy, It's summer of Jennifer. You presented
Speaker 1: OL's case of innocence along with countless letters of support
Speaker 1: and had that pro board hearing. They voted in favor
Speaker 1: of Owl's release. So in Ohio, the way it works
Speaker 1: as if you are recommended for prole and certain crimes,
Speaker 1: the victims family or the prosecutor has the opportunity to object.
Speaker 1: So that's what happened, and so then it goes to
Speaker 1: the full parole boards. There was ten members and we
Speaker 1: went in. Person Al was not there. It was me
Speaker 1: and his wife. We came in and spoke, and then
Speaker 1: Damon John spoke via the internet, and then you know,
Speaker 1: the victims family members were allowed to speak to But
Speaker 1: it was a really moving and overwhelming moment because one
Speaker 1: of the victims family members actually spoke out in favor
Speaker 1: of Pearle because she didn't think that they had done
Speaker 1: the crime either, which just hearing that was overwhelming. So
Speaker 1: the whole Pearl Board left and we just kind of
Speaker 1: had to sit there and wait for them to make
Speaker 1: a decision, which was one of the longest times of
Speaker 1: waiting I think I've ever felt. But they came back
Speaker 1: in and it was nine to one in favor of
Speaker 1: parole for him and his conefident Lyndworth Edwards was also
Speaker 1: up that day and so they both were granted it,
Speaker 1: And I mean, it was just incredible knowing he was
Speaker 1: finally going to come home, and it was frustrating knowing
Speaker 1: he wasn't getting exhonerate did or no one was acknowledging
Speaker 1: his innocence yet, but at least he'd be home. It's
Speaker 1: it's anticlimactic in a sense because this is important for
Speaker 1: the audience to hear al still hasn't been declared. Actually innocent,
Speaker 1: which means he's not eligible for compensation. He still has
Speaker 1: to be on parole, etcetera. I'm going to put it
Speaker 1: out there right now. I mean, I think we have
Speaker 1: to explore the possibility of getting an absolute pardon. You know,
Speaker 1: I will help in any way that I'm asked too.
Speaker 1: I don't want to get in the way. I think
Speaker 1: the governor of Ohio is a reasonable and decent man. Well,
Speaker 1: thank you. Well, I will say that we're not done yet.
Speaker 1: We think we've identified who actually did the crime, and
Speaker 1: so you know, we're now in the position the only
Speaker 1: legal avenue he has forward at this point is if
Speaker 1: we can solve the crime for the state and kind
Speaker 1: of take it to them, which is what we're working on.
Speaker 1: So stay tuned. Hopefully this isn't the end. Hopefully he
Speaker 1: will eventually get the exoneration he deserves. Amen to that.
Speaker 1: And at this point we turned to the part where
Speaker 1: I first of all, thank each of you for being
Speaker 1: here and sharing this unbelievable story. And now I'm going
Speaker 1: to introduce the closing of the show, which is called
Speaker 1: closing arguments are probably enough, And this is the part
Speaker 1: where I turn off my microphone, kick back in my chair,
Speaker 1: close my eyes, leave my headphones on, and I turn
Speaker 1: it over to you first, Jennifer for closing arguments, whatever
Speaker 1: you want to say, anything you think that's left unsaid,
Speaker 1: and then we'll save the best for last, and would
Speaker 1: go to you Al for your closing arguments, and that's
Speaker 1: how we'll end the show. Well, I wanted to say
Speaker 1: thank you for having me on today and listening to
Speaker 1: the story about we barely scratch the surface of all
Speaker 1: the crazy twists and turns of this case, but I
Speaker 1: appreciate you bringing this to the audience, and Al, I
Speaker 1: just wanted to say thank you for you know, believing
Speaker 1: in me over this whole time, even when things haven't
Speaker 1: gone as we hoped. But I'm just so delighted that
Speaker 1: your home, and I'm so excited to see all the
Speaker 1: good that you're doing in the world. And I'm happy
Speaker 1: that other people now finally get to see what I've
Speaker 1: been able to see for the last eleven years that
Speaker 1: we've been working on this case together. And I'm excited
Speaker 1: to see what comes in your future. But also just
Speaker 1: a reminder that you can't do it all in a day,
Speaker 1: because I know you're trying now, so Jennifer, I want
Speaker 1: to first, I want to thank you. I want to
Speaker 1: thank Cassie. I want to thank Moran, want to thank
Speaker 1: Virginia or think Professor Gatzi for you know, back in
Speaker 1: US putting you in position for taking the case, taking
Speaker 1: a huge burden off of me and my family. You know.
Speaker 1: Thank you. Second, Jason, you talked about going to the
Speaker 1: governor for a pardon and helping in any way. You
Speaker 1: can thank you for that. But I have two co
Speaker 1: defendants who are still incarcerated, Ben's and Davis and John
Speaker 1: and it, and if we went to the governor about anything,
Speaker 1: I would want the focus to be them and their
Speaker 1: release because they're sitting in there. Their poorer boar dates
Speaker 1: didn't come up like Lenny's and ours did. They're still
Speaker 1: in there and they don't deserve to be there, So
Speaker 1: any efforts in that area I would love to be
Speaker 1: focused on them. I'm gonna be all right, bro, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna be okay, you know what I mean. But them,
Speaker 1: and if anybody out there has any information, you know
Speaker 1: what a long shot this is on the wrong forul
Speaker 1: Previction podcast. Who knows somebody might listen to this and
Speaker 1: have some information about who really committed the crimes. We
Speaker 1: think we know the truth, we think we know who
Speaker 1: did it, but we need confirmation, we need concrete evidence.
Speaker 1: So please contact my lawyer at the Innocence Project, Jennifer.
Speaker 1: Please tell them your number or who they can contact
Speaker 1: if you have any information, contact them. Un let's get
Speaker 1: this overwit so we can get these men out of prison. Jennifer,
Speaker 1: please please tell me remember yeah, absolutely, the Ohio Innocence Project.
Speaker 1: You can reach us here at five one three zero
Speaker 1: seven five to And I also wanted to just add
Speaker 1: that the fact that you know you were given the
Speaker 1: chance to say anything after Jason, and your first thought
Speaker 1: is to think of your two code defendants who are
Speaker 1: still in prison, I think tells everybody all they need
Speaker 1: to know about your character. Appreciate that. Thank you for
Speaker 1: listening to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam. Please support your
Speaker 1: local innocence projects and go to the link in our
Speaker 1: bio to see how you can help. I'd like to
Speaker 1: thank our production team Connor Hall, Jeff Clyburne and Kevin Warns.
Speaker 1: The music on the show, as always is by three
Speaker 1: time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow
Speaker 1: us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction. Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam is a
Speaker 1: production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association with Signal
Speaker 1: Company Number one