1 00:00:02,840 --> 00:00:05,560 Speaker 1: In the late eighties and early nineties, the crack epidemic 2 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:07,760 Speaker 1: was in full swing in many parts of the country, 3 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: including Lorain, Ohio, where Sunset Boulevard was known as the 4 00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 1: place to buy and smoke crack without being hassled by 5 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:18,959 Speaker 1: the authorities. The infamously corrupt Lorraine Police Department had a 6 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:22,759 Speaker 1: relationship with a drug dealer, addict and notorious informant named 7 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:26,120 Speaker 1: William Avery Senior, who ran the scene on Sunset Boulevard 8 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:29,640 Speaker 1: and he didn't appreciate New Yorkers encroaching on his turf. 9 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:33,479 Speaker 1: On August eighth, nineteen ninety one, the bodies of Marsha 10 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:37,600 Speaker 1: Blakeley and Floyd Epps were discovered separately. The tire marks 11 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 1: on their heads were at least in part, to blame 12 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:43,280 Speaker 1: for their deaths. After the cases went cold, two thousand 13 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 1: dollars reward drew the attention of William Avery Senior, who 14 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:50,600 Speaker 1: brought in his teenage son to falsely accuse four men 15 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 1: from New York, including Al Cleveland. The fact that al 16 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 1: Cleveland was in New York at the time of the 17 00:00:56,760 --> 00:01:00,120 Speaker 1: murder and that Avery Junior recanted his statement at the 18 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 1: first of the four trials did not stop prosecutor Jonathan 19 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:08,040 Speaker 1: Rosenbaum from going ahead with all four of these sham trials. 20 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 1: The Ohio criminal legal system continuously ignored William Avery Junior's 21 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 1: recantations for twenty five long years, leaving parole as Al 22 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 1: Cleveland's only avenue for relief. This is Wrongful Conviction with 23 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:38,840 Speaker 1: Jason Flamm. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. 24 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 1: That's me, and today you're going to hear a story 25 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 1: that defies description. I'm going to first of all, introduce 26 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 1: first Jennifer Passion urge around. It's been on the show 27 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 1: before as the deputy director of the Ohio Innocence Project. Jennifer, 28 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 1: Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction. 29 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 2: Thank you, it's good to be back. 30 00:01:56,920 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 1: And Al Cleveland. I'm just going to say this. Al 31 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 1: has lived about seven or eight lifetimes so far, and 32 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:09,720 Speaker 1: he survived twenty five years in prison for a gruesome 33 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:13,520 Speaker 1: double murder that happened in Ohio while he was in Queens, 34 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:17,800 Speaker 1: New York. That's just the beginning. So without further ado, 35 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:20,360 Speaker 1: Al Cleveland, I'm so happy you're here. I'm sorry you 36 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:21,799 Speaker 1: have to be here, but I'm happier here. 37 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 3: Hey, I'm here. Man I'm with Jason plump. You got 38 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 3: to realize, Jason, like, I'm fresh home, like I've just 39 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:30,240 Speaker 3: been home maybe five months, and I sat on the 40 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 3: rack visualizing this. So here we are. Man, I'm excited, 41 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 3: I'm pumped up, and thank you for doing this. Thank 42 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:36,520 Speaker 3: you for doing this. 43 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 1: I don't even know what to say. That means. That 44 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 1: means more to me than you could even know. And 45 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 1: so al going back to the beginning, you grew up 46 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 1: such a fascinating story. You were a hip hop artist, 47 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:50,960 Speaker 1: and not only that, but you were very close friends 48 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 1: with ll cool J back in Hollis Queens. Tell us 49 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:54,960 Speaker 1: about that. 50 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, so he grew up right around the corner from me. 51 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 3: So we were always in the basement, you know, making 52 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 3: mixtapes and making songs, and like I seen his assent 53 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 3: from the basement to you know, a national stage. You know, 54 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 3: used to go with him on tour, like if he 55 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 3: was in any of the surrounding states, we would get 56 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:19,639 Speaker 3: in the vent and go wherever he was and get 57 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 3: backstage passes and you know, just have tons of fun. 58 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:25,640 Speaker 3: It was just tons of fun seeing that rise. 59 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, you witnessed literally the birth of a legend. And 60 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 1: here's your dear friend. I mean that rumor has it 61 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 1: that you actually painted his room. 62 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:36,839 Speaker 3: I mean so crazy, I did, I did, I did, 63 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 3: and he owes me thirty bucks still for it. 64 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 1: Oh my god, with interest. That's incredible. In his nineteen 65 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 1: ninety eight book I Make My Own Rules, ll actually 66 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 1: shouts you out and credits your artwork actually as an 67 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 1: early inspiration of his. So that's one. Okay, that's just one. 68 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 1: You ain't heard nothing yet. Stick with us, Okay. So 69 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 1: another childhood friend of yours is Damon John, and this 70 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 1: I think highlights how crazy and random all this shit 71 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 1: is because I think it's fair to say you all 72 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 1: had the same potential, but the system grabbed you and 73 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 1: those guys went on to become success stories while you 74 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 1: were being held captained by the state for a crime 75 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 1: you didn't commit. And for those of you who don't know, 76 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:22,560 Speaker 1: Damon John is the founder and CEO of Fubu. So 77 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 1: tell us about Damon just quickly and how you come 78 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 1: to know him in the beginning. 79 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:27,839 Speaker 3: Oh man, me and Damon we went to the same 80 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 3: Catholic school together in our neighborhood, from maybe second or 81 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:34,840 Speaker 3: third grade all the way up. We go on adventures, 82 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 3: bike rides, camping with my dad. That was my guy. 83 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 3: I wrote a book about it, actually a little children's book, 84 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:41,160 Speaker 3: What Don't you Do? 85 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 1: I feel like you? Okay, but we're going to get 86 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:45,640 Speaker 1: into that later. So to set the stage, we're back 87 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:49,920 Speaker 1: in the eighties and early nineties. The crack epidemic was 88 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 1: in full swing, and you were now going back and 89 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 1: forth to Northeast Ohio. Right, it seems so random. Why 90 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 1: would a kid from Queen's end up in Loreno, Ohio. 91 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 3: All Right, So since I'm talking to you, Flam and 92 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:05,920 Speaker 3: you got experience in the music business, I want to 93 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:08,359 Speaker 3: just go back a little bit to help you and 94 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 3: help everybody understand. So late eighties, my sister gets killed 95 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:15,479 Speaker 3: by some skinheads in Detroit, and it was a big thing. 96 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 3: My mom was protesting, but me, I internalized this thing 97 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 3: and just kind of like went into my art and 98 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 3: at the time I was doing graffiti and you know 99 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 3: art on that level, trying to get into galleries and 100 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:32,280 Speaker 3: trying to make my way, but it wasn't happening. So 101 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:35,679 Speaker 3: I started promoting parties, doing shows, ran into a guy 102 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 3: who had a studio. We started going to the studio. 103 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 3: I found out Hey, I got some talent, I can rap, 104 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 3: I can do this, I seen ll do it. Let 105 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 3: me take this route. So we started going to the 106 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:48,080 Speaker 3: studio and making songs, and we started forming a vision 107 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:51,279 Speaker 3: of what we wanted to do. But the problem was Jason. 108 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 3: Back then, you know, you had to get records pressed up, 109 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:55,919 Speaker 3: you had to get a song mastered, you had to 110 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:57,599 Speaker 3: go through all these steps, and I didn't have the 111 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 3: money for that. At every stage, we kept finding ourselves broke. 112 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 3: So ninety ninety one, a friend of mine gets in 113 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 3: touch with me. He had left New York to go 114 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 3: to Ohio with a few other dudes, and they were 115 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 3: into the drug scene, low level, but he was incarcerated 116 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:17,240 Speaker 3: and he asked me to help him with the bond money. 117 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:19,280 Speaker 3: At the time, I didn't have it. I only had 118 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 3: my rent money. So he enticed me a little more 119 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:24,159 Speaker 3: and told me he would double my money. Just come 120 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 3: on out, give him a few days, and he would 121 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 3: have the money back for me. And at the time 122 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:30,720 Speaker 3: I wanted to explore the music scene out here. I said, 123 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:32,479 Speaker 3: you know what the heck man, and I did it. 124 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:35,560 Speaker 3: I sent him the money came out here. That's how 125 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 3: I wound up out here. He took me to a project. 126 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:40,840 Speaker 3: You know, he's showing me how he does his thing. 127 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 3: You know, gave me the little package to hold. Police comes, 128 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 3: they chase him, arrest him. I have the little thing 129 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:50,920 Speaker 3: I dished, a little thing. I wound up meeting some guys. 130 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:53,479 Speaker 3: Went to a guy's house who wound up being the 131 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 3: guy who wound up setting us up. But I went 132 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 3: to his house. He asked me if I had anything, 133 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 3: and I'm like, I kind of do. He asked me 134 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 3: about from New York. Do I know my code defending. 135 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 3: I'm like, yeah, I know him. Yeah. He's like, if 136 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 3: you got something, I can sell it. So I went 137 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 3: and retrieved this stuff. You start breaking it down with him. 138 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 3: I didn't even know the prices were haggling, and he 139 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 3: takes what he buys from me, goes right out into 140 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 3: the street and he's stopping cars like he's a traffic controller, 141 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 3: is selling his thing. And maybe an hour and a 142 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 3: half later, the whole little bag of stuff I had 143 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 3: was it was gone. I had about twenty two hundred 144 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 3: dollars in my pocket. For the next thirty to forty days, 145 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 3: I just went on a mission to get my startup capital. 146 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 3: So I mean, I know it was wrong, but that 147 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 3: was I had a vision. I had a vision, Jason. 148 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 1: And I can't leave out the fact that when you 149 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 1: look at the history of hip hop music, there's so 150 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 1: many artists, legendary artists who grew up the same way 151 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 1: you did, some of them from the same area you 152 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 1: came from. And he ended up in the crack game 153 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 1: because that was the option that was available at the time, 154 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 1: like you said, to get startup capital or whatever it 155 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 1: may be. And just by fate, they didn't get arrested. 156 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 1: And many people know the names, I mean, because these 157 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 1: people are they're not secretive about it. When I had 158 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 1: Meek Bill on the podcast and I asked him this 159 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 1: question how many people he met in prison that were 160 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 1: as talented as he is, and he said he couldn't 161 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 1: even count. How many. 162 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 3: You know, I've met so many guys in there, Jason, 163 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 3: who the visionaries. You know, they're the bread winners and 164 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 3: their families. And I just want to make it clear. 165 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:22,239 Speaker 3: I just want to make sure I share this message 166 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 3: that if you do have a dream, if you do 167 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 3: have a vision, try to find out how to do 168 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 3: a business plan, try to find out how to go 169 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 3: to a bank or ask people family members to invest 170 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:36,720 Speaker 3: in your dream instead of taking that route and putting 171 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:39,680 Speaker 3: yourself at risk to come to the penitentiary because it's 172 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 3: full of guys with dreams that fall through. So I 173 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 3: just wanted to share that. 174 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:48,560 Speaker 1: No, I'm glad you did. And Jennifer, I want to 175 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 1: talk about the Lorraine Police Department because of course Loraine, 176 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 1: Ohio was where I was spending his time in those days, 177 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 1: and they were known for sexual abuse and brutality, which 178 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 1: is sadly a problem that exists to this day. So 179 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 1: many different police departments around this country. Can you paint 180 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 1: a picture of what was going on back then and 181 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 1: there and what was the deal with their unsavory relationship 182 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 1: with this shady character William Avery sor. 183 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:17,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, there was a huge crack problem. Similar to lots 184 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:20,360 Speaker 2: of other areas in the country. The police had people 185 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 2: like William Avery Senior, who, at least according to Avery, 186 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 2: could kind of do some favors as a CI and 187 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:31,200 Speaker 2: then be left alone and do whatever you wanted. So 188 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 2: there seemed to be sort of this unofficial arrangement between 189 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 2: the cops and some of the people there. So it 190 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 2: seemed to me that when folks from New York came 191 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 2: in and started sort of messing with that system. It 192 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:44,319 Speaker 2: did not go over well with either the residents or 193 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 2: the police. 194 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:48,560 Speaker 1: You had just gotten involved in this business, so to speak. 195 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 1: Al were you aware of what the Lorraine police department 196 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 1: was up to? 197 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 3: No, I wasn't. Actually I found out years later through 198 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 3: our investigation that one I'm a co defendent, was the 199 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:02,320 Speaker 3: one who invited me out here. He was kind of 200 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 3: like a target. We actually found a picture with him 201 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:07,440 Speaker 3: with a bullseye in their police files like here, I 202 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 3: am just waltz right into Lorraine. 203 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 1: I had no idea you were sitting duck. Let's face it. 204 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 1: And as part of the story centers around a guy 205 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:19,720 Speaker 1: named William Avery Senior, who was a prolific paid informant 206 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:22,640 Speaker 1: at the time, and he received special treatment as informants 207 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 1: do in exchange for his help. He lived on Sunset 208 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:29,680 Speaker 1: Boulevard in Lorain, Ohio with his son, William Avery Junior, 209 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 1: who he had introduced to crack when the kid was 210 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 1: just fourteen years old, and this had become this sort 211 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 1: of neighborhood spot where people would come to smoke crack, 212 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:40,680 Speaker 1: and the police looked the other way of course, because 213 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:42,880 Speaker 1: he was helping them out while lying for them on 214 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 1: cases as well as maybe providing accurate information once in 215 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 1: a while, have no idea. And then there was Marsha Blakeley. 216 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 2: Well, Marsha Blakely was the murder victim, and she was 217 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 2: a young woman who was addicted to crack and other 218 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 2: drugs and was known on the streets for churning tricks, 219 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:02,080 Speaker 2: selling stolen goods to feed her addiction. She was just 220 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:05,439 Speaker 2: a user who, for reasons that I still don't quite understand, 221 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 2: ended up brutally murdered in this whole situation. 222 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, so she and a guy named Floyd Epps turned 223 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 1: up dead and this is, you know, one of the 224 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:19,800 Speaker 1: most brutal crimes I've ever heard of. On August eighth, 225 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:21,959 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty one, at nine eighteen in the morning, Marsha 226 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 1: Blakeley's body was discovered in an alley behind the West 227 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:27,880 Speaker 1: Coast Shopping Center in the rain. She had twenty five 228 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 1: stab wounds, fractured ribs, a broken neck, a slit throat, 229 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:34,439 Speaker 1: and torture wounds on her neck and head. And if 230 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 1: that wasn't enough, her head had been run over by 231 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 1: a car twice now earlier that same day at one 232 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:43,720 Speaker 1: twenty five am, Floyd Epps's body was found nearby and 233 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:45,839 Speaker 1: his head had also been run over by a car. 234 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 1: So this is bizarre because police believed that the murders 235 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:50,760 Speaker 1: were related. Anyone would, of course, I mean, you don't 236 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:53,439 Speaker 1: hear stories too often people being the heads run over 237 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:57,200 Speaker 1: by cars, thankfully, But no arrests were made in the 238 00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 1: Epps killing, and no arrests have been made to this date, 239 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 1: which is the whole separate problem. But when nothing was 240 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 1: happening with these cases, the cops offered a two thousand 241 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:09,960 Speaker 1: dollars reward for information. So now we go all the 242 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:12,960 Speaker 1: way to over a month later, September tenth, William Avery 243 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:17,760 Speaker 1: said he had information and they told him that the 244 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 1: reward would only be given to someone with first hand knowledge. 245 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:24,559 Speaker 2: Yeah, so William Avery sor takes his son, William Avery 246 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 2: Junior in the next day to meet with the cops 247 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:29,200 Speaker 2: to say what you know, he knew about the crime. 248 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 2: But his story as it was told that day does 249 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:36,359 Speaker 2: not match up to what he eventually said in the trials. 250 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:39,559 Speaker 2: And in addition, it was just a bizarre meeting where 251 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 2: you know, the cops are interviewing William Avery Junior about 252 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:46,679 Speaker 2: supposedly witnessing this urter, and yet his father sat in 253 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:49,960 Speaker 2: on the entire interview and said like, yeah, I'm here 254 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:52,839 Speaker 2: to remind him of the things that he forgot, which 255 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 2: just raised all kinds of red flags. But yet that's 256 00:12:56,960 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 2: that's what they went with. 257 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:01,000 Speaker 1: So when Avery Sor and j went to the police, 258 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 1: Junior implicated four individuals and the death of Marsha Blakely. 259 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 1: That four men were Lenworth Edwards, Benson Davis, John Edwards, 260 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:12,200 Speaker 1: and Alfred Cleveland, men that he claimed were drug dealers 261 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:12,679 Speaker 1: from New York. 262 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 3: Now. 263 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:15,319 Speaker 1: Avery Junior went on to say that he owed you 264 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:18,199 Speaker 1: Al money and in order to pay off the debt. 265 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 1: Avery Junior claimed that Al took him to Epps's apartment 266 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:25,120 Speaker 1: where Marcia Blakely was, and that Al told him to 267 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 1: assault her. Avery Junior claimed to refuse because he knew 268 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 1: Marshall Blakeley. So, according to this crazy tale from Avery Junior, 269 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:36,080 Speaker 1: the three other men assaulted her for twenty minutes while 270 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:38,880 Speaker 1: he and Al watched. Avery continued on that he went 271 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:42,000 Speaker 1: back to his apartment after the assault, but said that 272 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 1: Al came by after and told him, quote, we took 273 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:48,439 Speaker 1: care of the junkie. We knocked her off. 274 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:52,760 Speaker 2: And thanks just started rolling from there. Although they never 275 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 2: really found any other evidence at all implicating these guys. 276 00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:57,880 Speaker 1: But they can't find something that doesn't exist because they 277 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:01,440 Speaker 1: weren't absolute. So we aren't even been fucking ohio, right, 278 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:03,959 Speaker 1: what tell us where you were during this week and 279 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 1: how we know that that's really true? 280 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 3: All right? So, yeah, I was on probation at the time. 281 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 3: I didn't realize when I was going to trial. I 282 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 3: wasn't sure because it was like four years later that 283 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 3: that was the day that I went to my probation officer, 284 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 3: but I knew. I went back to New York to 285 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 3: see my probation officer and I was in New York 286 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 3: with Damon John, who had a van business at the time. 287 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 3: I went to buy a TV and I needed him 288 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 3: to come bring the TV to my house. And this 289 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 3: is all, you know, the seventh, the eighth, when these 290 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 3: people were killed, and when I was going to trial, 291 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:37,040 Speaker 3: I had to receipt for this TV. You know, we 292 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 3: got those times. You know, he came to trial and 293 00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 3: prosecuted try to dog him out like he was some 294 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 3: young punk. You know, he tried to discredit him and 295 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 3: it was crazy. 296 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 2: I mean, the state acknowledged that he had seen the 297 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 2: probation officer in New York on August seventh, but they 298 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 2: just said, well, he must have decided he was going 299 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 2: to either drive or fly to Ohio to come and 300 00:14:57,320 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 2: commit this brutal murder against this woman. He didn't even know. 301 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:02,200 Speaker 2: But it was just the word of one person, that 302 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 2: was it. 303 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 1: So four people were victims of this compromise to say 304 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 1: the least paid informant and it was a two thousand 305 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 1: dollars award, and then they paid him again. 306 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:12,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, he got the two thousand dollars reward for coming 307 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 2: forward initially, which was interesting because the award was listed 308 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 2: for anyone would get it, leading to an arrest. They 309 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 2: arrest Lynworth Edwards, one of the co defendants, so he 310 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 2: gets the two thousand dollars. They then schedule a deposition 311 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 2: of William Avery Junior claiming that his life is in 312 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 2: danger or something, and he gets paid again, and then 313 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 2: he ends up getting paid more so at the end 314 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:35,400 Speaker 2: of the bowl saga, he ended up getting paid around 315 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 2: five thousand dollars for his testimony. 316 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:40,440 Speaker 1: Right we're talking nineteen ninety one dollars is a lot 317 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 1: more money than it is today. 318 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, to someone who was a crack addict who 319 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 2: you know, on the stand said he never really had 320 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 2: a job, so this was his income. 321 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 1: So Avery Junior changed and recanted his story multiple times 322 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 1: after the initial interrogation, but his claims anyway were enough 323 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 1: and the authorities were happy to use them to convict 324 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 1: four men. Avery Junior was supposed to testify in the 325 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 1: first trial because guys were tried separately, Right, Lynworth Edwards 326 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 1: was the first trial. 327 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 2: Yes, so at Lynworth Edward's first trial, this was the 328 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 2: first of the four to be tried. Yeah, William Avery 329 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 2: Junior basically demanded ten thousand dollars to keep giving his testimony, 330 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 2: which you know, of course, the prosecutor said, well, no, 331 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 2: we're not paying you anything. So at this point Avery 332 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 2: Junior then says, well, I'm not going to testify. Everything 333 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 2: I said before was a lie. So yeah, they end 334 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 2: up throwing him in jail and charging him with contempt. 335 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 2: But he later comes back and it's the second trial 336 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 2: for Lynworth and says, well, the reason I flip flopped 337 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 2: before was because I was threatened in the jail if 338 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 2: I went forward with telling what I know about this crime, 339 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:53,600 Speaker 2: and so that's how they got away with putting on 340 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 2: his testimony in Lynworth's second trial and then in the 341 00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 2: rest of the defendant's trials. However, we found out later 342 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:06,880 Speaker 2: years later, was that those threats never happened. We found 343 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:10,200 Speaker 2: records showing that Avery Jr. He actually got in trouble 344 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:13,879 Speaker 2: for making false reports about getting threatened. And so the 345 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:15,640 Speaker 2: whole case was just built on a lie. 346 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:21,240 Speaker 1: Basically a lot of life. Well yeah, several but and 347 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:25,400 Speaker 1: al your trial, you were the third one tried, right, 348 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 1: and your trial lasted six days. 349 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:34,680 Speaker 3: When the jury came in, I turned around to look 350 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 3: at them, and I saw it was hatred. Bro I 351 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:50,359 Speaker 3: saw a hatred and my mom was there, a couple 352 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 3: of supporters. And when the judge read the verdict, he 353 00:17:55,960 --> 00:18:00,359 Speaker 3: told me that I'm sentenced to life, and I told 354 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 3: him I didn't do it. And damn the screech when 355 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:15,960 Speaker 3: he said guilty. The screech came from a mother's voice. 356 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:27,360 Speaker 3: I knew it took a part. Yes, apart from all 357 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 3: I can do is try to turn around comforter her 358 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:32,880 Speaker 3: like it's gonna be okay, It's gonna be all right. 359 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 1: This episode is underwritten by the AIG pro Bono Program. 360 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 1: AIG is a leading global insurance company, and for over 361 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:53,120 Speaker 1: a decade, the AIG pro Bono Program has provided thousands 362 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:56,240 Speaker 1: of hours of free legal services and other support to 363 00:18:56,320 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 1: nonprofit organizations and individuals most in need. More recently, the 364 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 1: program added criminal and social justice reform as a key 365 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 1: pillar of its mission. 366 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:11,320 Speaker 3: Yeah. 367 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:14,479 Speaker 4: So I went to a high security prison they call 368 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:18,439 Speaker 4: them close camps where they send people that you know, 369 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 4: done some of society's worse crimes. 370 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:25,639 Speaker 3: They're there, and those first six or seven years that 371 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:30,240 Speaker 3: kind of blurried to me because I was so focused 372 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:35,399 Speaker 3: on fighting and educating myself. I had to totally like 373 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:39,360 Speaker 3: re educate myself because everything I had thought I believed 374 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:43,480 Speaker 3: turned out to be alive about the system and everything. 375 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:45,439 Speaker 3: You know, I had to learn about myself, you know. 376 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:48,000 Speaker 3: I learned about my history, learned about the history of 377 00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 3: this country, learn about you know, other people who suffered injustices, 378 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 3: and tried to understand how these things happened. You know, 379 00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:00,400 Speaker 3: it wasn't just me, and I started learning like, man, 380 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:04,120 Speaker 3: this is a big problem. So I just got on 381 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 3: a mission to better myself and better educate myself so 382 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 3: I could learn how to write better, learn how to 383 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:15,960 Speaker 3: communicate better to get support. You know, I had to 384 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 3: be able to write people. It's like you're going on 385 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 3: a campaign and you just got to learn how to 386 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:25,680 Speaker 3: articulate yourself. At the same time growing spiritually, working out, 387 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:28,400 Speaker 3: trying to be an impact on the guys in there, 388 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 3: because I started seeing that, you know, a lot of 389 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 3: guys weren't educated at all, like no GEDs and a 390 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:36,159 Speaker 3: lot of illiteracy. So I put myself in a block 391 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:40,040 Speaker 3: where I could tutor guys and just help out in 392 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 3: that way. I knew it was other guys that were innocent, 393 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 3: and if they were illiterate, they didn't stand a chance. 394 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:48,119 Speaker 3: You know, it's tons of guys in there for stuff 395 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 3: they didn't do, but they don't have any support. They 396 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:52,400 Speaker 3: don't know how to explain their situation. They don't even 397 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:55,320 Speaker 3: really know what happened. They don't really understand the language 398 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 3: that was used on them in the courtroom, just sitting 399 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:01,360 Speaker 3: there trying to fight their way through the everyday life 400 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:03,840 Speaker 3: of prison. So I just had to try to be 401 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 3: an impact in there. I wasn't going to allow what 402 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:10,879 Speaker 3: happened to me to make me bitter, make me anger, 403 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:13,760 Speaker 3: because I saw that it directly affects your health. So 404 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:15,960 Speaker 3: I had to make my mind up to you know, 405 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:18,960 Speaker 3: understand forgiveness and try to understand that maybe these people 406 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:21,399 Speaker 3: made a mistake. Maybe they really thought we did do this, 407 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:24,440 Speaker 3: you know, but I found out later on. This gets 408 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 3: me angry, man, is that they knew it was other 409 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:31,120 Speaker 3: people and other suspects. They were on these guys trail, man, 410 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:34,359 Speaker 3: and these are people that we're finding out other people 411 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 3: that committed the crime, and they were on that track, 412 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:39,920 Speaker 3: but just wanted us just focus on us, man, and 413 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:43,480 Speaker 3: went forward with a full story a preschool. It could 414 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:47,040 Speaker 3: have poke holes in this God's story, but they moved 415 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 3: forward with it. 416 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:53,199 Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, it's extraordinary to me that you and 417 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:55,879 Speaker 1: others have found a way to now we find this 418 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:58,399 Speaker 1: spiritual grace or whatever you want to call it, but 419 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 1: also to overcome the best word I can think of 420 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:04,960 Speaker 1: this incredible hardship is not even I can't find the 421 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:08,840 Speaker 1: right word. But it's worth noting that al was convicted 422 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 1: about five years after the crime was committed, all the 423 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:16,200 Speaker 1: way in nineteen ninety six, and that same year there 424 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 1: was a motion for a new trial based on an AFPHA. 425 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 1: David from Jeremiah Abdulah Charlton al who was he and 426 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:26,120 Speaker 1: why was his affidavit significant? 427 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:28,879 Speaker 3: So this was a few years after my conviction. I 428 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:32,359 Speaker 3: run into this guy who says he had some information 429 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:35,439 Speaker 3: that he's been trying to share and had in fact 430 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:40,399 Speaker 3: shared with police, and he was the last person to 431 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:43,239 Speaker 3: see Marshall Blakeley. At least he alleged he was, you know, 432 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:46,480 Speaker 3: put her into the car with two guys to exchange 433 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:49,879 Speaker 3: four drugs. I guess he was like pimping, so to speak, 434 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 3: and he put her in the car with these guys. 435 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,119 Speaker 3: So the judge did give us a hearing based on 436 00:22:56,200 --> 00:23:00,199 Speaker 3: his affidavit. Anytime somebody files an affidavit, you have to 437 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 3: come to testify to the truthfulness of the appidated. But 438 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:07,600 Speaker 3: when we get to the hearing, Malloya wasn't even prepared, 439 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 3: didn't call him, didn't subpoena any and lo and behold, 440 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 3: I found out this same prosecutor had indicted her for 441 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 3: some stuff in her office, you know, stuff that they 442 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 3: were going through, and had her under indictment at the 443 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 3: time of that hearing. So she wasn't in her right mind. 444 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:26,960 Speaker 3: And the judge denied the hearing based on her unpreparedness, 445 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:29,240 Speaker 3: and she was a good attorney. I mean, she fought, 446 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:32,160 Speaker 3: she believed in me, but she couldn't go up against 447 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:34,440 Speaker 3: these guys man, they were too influential. 448 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 1: It seems to me that there were any number of 449 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 1: times when the state had not just the opportunity, but 450 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:46,119 Speaker 1: the obligation to right this wrong, but like it often does, 451 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:49,199 Speaker 1: instead it sort of got under its shell like a 452 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 1: turtle and deflected any new information or evidence to protect 453 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,320 Speaker 1: this wrongful conviction or these four wrong for convictions. 454 00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:00,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, how did his sort of regular direct appeals which 455 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:03,919 Speaker 2: didn't go anywhere. And then later Avery Junior, you know, 456 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:06,439 Speaker 2: the only guy that put him at the scene, he 457 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 2: recanted and admitted that he made the whole thing up. 458 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:13,280 Speaker 2: What's interesting about that is it took a long time 459 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:16,240 Speaker 2: for Al's family to track down Avery Junior. He kind 460 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:18,840 Speaker 2: of lived off the grid and it was hard to 461 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:21,399 Speaker 2: find him. But once they did and he admitted, you 462 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 2: know that he had lied in this. What we later 463 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:27,440 Speaker 2: found out was that that wasn't the first time he recanted. 464 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:30,919 Speaker 2: He actually recanted a couple of years before that to 465 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 2: an FBI agent in Detroit, just completely out of the blue, 466 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 2: and on his own. Nobody from the state ever got 467 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 2: a hold of Al or any of his attorneys to 468 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:43,119 Speaker 2: let him know that. So at that point there was 469 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:46,879 Speaker 2: no evidence left, and the States admitted that in filings 470 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:50,160 Speaker 2: before that without Avery Junior, there's no case against Al. 471 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 2: So this was before Ohio Innocence Project and I got 472 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:55,160 Speaker 2: involved in the case. But he went back to state 473 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:58,920 Speaker 2: court with this sworn statement in affidavit from Avery Junior, 474 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:01,639 Speaker 2: and in the state court they finally eventually held a 475 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:04,920 Speaker 2: hearing where they called him into testify. Well, they read 476 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:07,960 Speaker 2: him his rights on the stand, he threatened to prosecute 477 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:11,159 Speaker 2: him with perjury in the four different trials if he 478 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 2: proceeded to recant on the stand, and he said, well, 479 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,359 Speaker 2: I'm not going to prison for thirty years, took the 480 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:21,520 Speaker 2: fifth and walked out. Now, the only reasonable conclusion you 481 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:23,439 Speaker 2: could draw from that was that he was going to 482 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:26,640 Speaker 2: testify that he lied at the trial because he wasn't 483 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:28,920 Speaker 2: in any danger if he was going to suddenly say 484 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:30,960 Speaker 2: he was telling the truth at the trial, if that 485 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:34,119 Speaker 2: makes sense. But in any case, he walks outside and 486 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 2: there's an interview with a reporter right afterward where he says, 487 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:38,520 Speaker 2: dude's innocent but I'm not going to prison for it. 488 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 3: Yeah. 489 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:42,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, his silence spoke volumes. 490 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:45,440 Speaker 2: Absolutely, and if they were interested in justice, they would 491 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:48,439 Speaker 2: have let him testify. So yeah, then he lost there 492 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:50,880 Speaker 2: and then we ended up in federal court, and that's 493 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:52,040 Speaker 2: where I kind of came in. 494 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 1: We know how difficult the federal court is. Unfortunately, due 495 00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:59,399 Speaker 1: to EDPA, the chances of success in federal court are 496 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 1: basically the same as a snowballs chance in hell. But 497 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:05,680 Speaker 1: tell us what you did, how you did it, and 498 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:09,120 Speaker 1: how the hell you finally managed to bring him home 499 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 1: as a miracle. 500 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 2: So we filed it in federal court, and the district 501 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:16,119 Speaker 2: court had said that we couldn't go forward with the 502 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:20,360 Speaker 2: habeas case because there's this statute of limitations for of 503 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,120 Speaker 2: one year, and long story short, they said we were 504 00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:26,800 Speaker 2: too late. So we filed an appeal because there's this 505 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:31,120 Speaker 2: exception if you can show that someone is actually innocent, 506 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 2: and that's what we did with the recantation from avery. 507 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:38,760 Speaker 2: And then we had evidence from the alibi witnesses and 508 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,479 Speaker 2: additional alibi witnesses as well. So the state, you know, 509 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:46,200 Speaker 2: had poked holes in Al's Alibia trial by saying, well, 510 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:49,200 Speaker 2: he could have driven or flown here after the times 511 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:51,159 Speaker 2: we knew he was in New York. Well, we had 512 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:54,680 Speaker 2: additional witnesses that we found that proved that al was 513 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:58,199 Speaker 2: in New York at the time the crime happened, or 514 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:00,680 Speaker 2: so close in time to it that it lets he 515 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:04,480 Speaker 2: could time travel, he could not have possibly gone back 516 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:08,240 Speaker 2: to Ohio. So based on those things, we convinced the 517 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:10,680 Speaker 2: Sixth Circuit that we had shown that he was actually innocent. 518 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:13,399 Speaker 2: That didn't mean that he got to go home. That 519 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:16,200 Speaker 2: just meant that we got the right to actually pursue 520 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 2: the habeas claims in the district court. So in federal 521 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:24,639 Speaker 2: court you have to make federal constitutional claims. So we 522 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:28,760 Speaker 2: were making federal claims of Brady violations where the state 523 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:32,280 Speaker 2: had hid evidence and also that they had intentionally put 524 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 2: on false evidence from Avery that they knew was false, 525 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:39,160 Speaker 2: and also claimed like an effective assistance of trial council 526 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 2: for failing to find some of these additional alibi witnesses. 527 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:45,760 Speaker 2: And then we also made a claim based on actual 528 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:49,160 Speaker 2: innocence and said, you know, he has a federal constitutional 529 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:51,360 Speaker 2: right to not be in prison if he's actually innocent. 530 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 2: Although interestingly, the US Supreme Court even to this day 531 00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:58,680 Speaker 2: has not expressly recognized that that's a federal constitutional right 532 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:01,919 Speaker 2: to not be in prison and if you're innocent. So 533 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:07,520 Speaker 2: we had this hearing and then we lost. I mean, 534 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:10,359 Speaker 2: I can't even describe how I felt when the notification 535 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 2: came in. It came over email and I saw it, 536 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,960 Speaker 2: and I think I just about fell out of my chair. 537 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:17,199 Speaker 3: You know. 538 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 2: Losing the appeals in this case has been I think 539 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:22,960 Speaker 2: the hardest thing I've had to deal with professionally. It 540 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:28,919 Speaker 2: still boggles my mind and infuriates me and saddens me 541 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:33,639 Speaker 2: all at the same time. And then, because of the 542 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,480 Speaker 2: weirdness of habeas law, we weren't allowed to appeal directly. 543 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 2: We had to ask for permission to appeal. And then 544 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:42,840 Speaker 2: the Sixth Circuit, which was the same court that had 545 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 2: said we had put forward a case showing that al 546 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,800 Speaker 2: was actually innocent, then denied us the right to appeal 547 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 2: and said we didn't even have the right to appeal, 548 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,120 Speaker 2: which I still can't explain that. I don't know how 549 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,760 Speaker 2: you say, well, it looks like he's actually innocent, then 550 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:59,040 Speaker 2: get more evidence supporting that, and then just say, well, 551 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:00,840 Speaker 2: never mind, we're not going to hear you claim anymore. 552 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 2: But that's what happened. 553 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 1: That's our system, ladies and gentlemen. The Sixth Circuit said, yeah, 554 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 1: you're innocent, but no, we're not going to give you 555 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:13,200 Speaker 1: a new trial. Furthermore, the Supreme Court has said that 556 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 1: actual innocence doesn't necessarily provide a basis for relief. I 557 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:21,480 Speaker 1: think it was Scalia who made that, those awful statements. 558 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:25,720 Speaker 1: And you know, we should all be reviled by this, 559 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,840 Speaker 1: Like what are you talking about? Like what the fuck 560 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 1: are you talking about? That actual innocence is not a 561 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 1: basis for a relief, Yes it is. Everybody knows this, 562 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:41,560 Speaker 1: and yes, that's not the way it works here. It's 563 00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 1: like procedure is more important than justice. It's basically what 564 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:49,400 Speaker 1: it comes down to. And it's madness. It's absolute madness. 565 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 1: And we're here, als here in the flesh, as a 566 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 1: living example of just how wrong all of this is. 567 00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:00,600 Speaker 1: But before we get to the closes of the show, 568 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:06,760 Speaker 1: I want to talk about one other, absolutely extraordinary aspect 569 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:11,520 Speaker 1: of your life, and that is your wife and family. 570 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:16,720 Speaker 1: It's beautiful in all this darkness and misery, this woman 571 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:20,400 Speaker 1: who I look forward to meeting someday stood by you. 572 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:23,240 Speaker 1: How is that even possible twenty five years. 573 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:25,960 Speaker 3: We did an interview yesterday and I asked her during 574 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 3: an interview what would make a woman make such a 575 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:32,440 Speaker 3: huge sacrifice in her life, and she just said, man 576 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:36,800 Speaker 3: loved I mean, it was very powerful and this woman 577 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:42,640 Speaker 3: loves me. Man. That's why I made that song Jennifer 578 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:45,360 Speaker 3: about you guys, and I'm telling all through the song 579 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,280 Speaker 3: like love can do all things. Yeah, I had Damon 580 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 3: John as a friend and he did rise while I 581 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 3: was in prison and helped out with attorney fees where 582 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:57,120 Speaker 3: he could and where I needed him to. But it 583 00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 3: wasn't money. It was the love of people, was the 584 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:02,880 Speaker 3: love of my wife. It was a love of family 585 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,600 Speaker 3: members who supported me. It was a love of Jennifer 586 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,360 Speaker 3: and the Innocence Project. And it's just me saying thanks. 587 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 3: So I want to share that. You know, I'll go 588 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,960 Speaker 3: by the name of Deacon Cleveland. It's called Welcome Back 589 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:17,120 Speaker 3: and awesome. Thanks for all of them, Thanks for all 590 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:18,280 Speaker 3: your thoughts while. 591 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 1: I was up in there and. 592 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 3: Appreciate your support while I was down in bed. 593 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:29,680 Speaker 1: Now I'm so happy that your talents will finally be 594 00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:32,920 Speaker 1: put to use in the world. So everyone, please make 595 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:36,040 Speaker 1: sure you scroll down we'll have all of this link 596 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:36,680 Speaker 1: in the bio. 597 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:38,680 Speaker 3: And don't forgive my wife and not books. She's sitting 598 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:41,920 Speaker 3: right here with me. Three Strands, one Core, a Couple's 599 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:46,280 Speaker 3: Guide to Understanding Incoserration for couples and families going through 600 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:49,960 Speaker 3: in conservation. If they need some help on how to 601 00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:53,600 Speaker 3: navigate that terrain and make it through and possibly even 602 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:57,960 Speaker 3: thrive in love, yess, then get the book. It's our 603 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,920 Speaker 3: way of serving that community. So three strands, one chord, 604 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 3: Couple's God to Understanding Incarceration. ROBERTA and Alpha Clean, thank 605 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 3: you for real man, those that the Ohio inno'ss Project, 606 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 3: Jennifer and them, and Morgan and Jassie. 607 00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:18,840 Speaker 1: In Virginia, and you know Jason Flem and. 608 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:24,880 Speaker 3: Lourie pushing praying, my wife, my kids never complain once 609 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 3: move house to house, the house. It was crazy crazy. 610 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:43,920 Speaker 1: In summer of twenty twenty, Jennifer, you presented OL's case 611 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:48,440 Speaker 1: of innocence along with countless letters of support, and at 612 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:52,440 Speaker 1: that pro board hearing they voted in favor of Al's release. 613 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,000 Speaker 2: So in Ohio, the way it works is if you 614 00:32:55,720 --> 00:33:00,560 Speaker 2: are recommended for parole and certain crimes, the victims family 615 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:04,200 Speaker 2: or the prosecutor has the opportunity to object, so that's 616 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:05,960 Speaker 2: what happened, and so then it goes to the full 617 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,640 Speaker 2: parole board. So there was ten members and we went in. 618 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:12,400 Speaker 2: Person Al was not there. It was me and his wife. 619 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,080 Speaker 2: We came in and spoke, and then Damon John spoke 620 00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:19,200 Speaker 2: via the internet, and then you know, the victims' family 621 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 2: members were allowed to speak too. But it was a 622 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:26,000 Speaker 2: really moving and overwhelming moment because one of the victim's 623 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:29,040 Speaker 2: family members actually spoke out in favor of parole because 624 00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:30,880 Speaker 2: she didn't think that they had done the crime either, 625 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:35,880 Speaker 2: which just hearing that was overwhelming. So the whole parole 626 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:37,400 Speaker 2: board left and we just kind of had to sit 627 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:39,480 Speaker 2: there and wait for them to make a decision, which 628 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,000 Speaker 2: was one of the longest times of waiting I think 629 00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:44,680 Speaker 2: I've ever felt. But they came back in and it 630 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 2: was nine to one in favor of parole for him 631 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:51,120 Speaker 2: and his codefendant, Lyndworth Edwards, was also up that day 632 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:54,400 Speaker 2: and so they both were granted it, and I mean, 633 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:56,600 Speaker 2: it was just incredible knowing he was finally going to 634 00:33:56,680 --> 00:34:00,120 Speaker 2: come home. It was frustrating knowing he wasn't getting exonerate 635 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:04,640 Speaker 2: or no one was acknowledging his innocence yet, but at 636 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:05,560 Speaker 2: least he'd be home. 637 00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:11,800 Speaker 1: It's anti climactic in a sense because this is important 638 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:14,600 Speaker 1: for the audience to hear. Al still hasn't been declared 639 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:17,640 Speaker 1: actually innocent, which means he's not eligible for compensation, he 640 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:21,760 Speaker 1: still has to be on parole, etc. I'm going to 641 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:23,200 Speaker 1: put it out there right now. I mean, I think 642 00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:26,960 Speaker 1: we have to explore the possibility of getting an absolute pardon. 643 00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:29,520 Speaker 1: You know, I will help in any way that I'm 644 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:31,080 Speaker 1: asked to. I don't want to get in the way. 645 00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:33,759 Speaker 1: I think the governor of Ohio is a reasonable and 646 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:34,720 Speaker 1: decent man. 647 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,280 Speaker 2: Well, thank you. I will say that we're not done yet. 648 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,960 Speaker 2: We think we've identified who actually did the crime, and 649 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:43,359 Speaker 2: so you know, we're now in the position the only 650 00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,160 Speaker 2: legal avenue he has forward at this point is if 651 00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:48,399 Speaker 2: we can solve the crime for the state and kind 652 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:50,440 Speaker 2: of take it to them, which is what we're working on. 653 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:54,520 Speaker 2: So stay tuned. Hopefully this isn't the end. Hopefully he 654 00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:57,440 Speaker 2: will eventually get the exoneration he deserves. 655 00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:01,920 Speaker 1: Amen to that. And at this point we turn to 656 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,400 Speaker 1: the part where I first of all thank each of 657 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:11,560 Speaker 1: you for being here and sharing this unbelievable story. And 658 00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:15,000 Speaker 1: now I'm going to introduce the closing of the show, 659 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:17,719 Speaker 1: which is called closing arguments and probably enough. And this 660 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:21,520 Speaker 1: is the part where I turn off my microphone, kick 661 00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:24,359 Speaker 1: back in my chair, close my eyes, leave my headphones on, 662 00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:26,960 Speaker 1: and I turn it over to you first, Jennifer, for 663 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:29,640 Speaker 1: closing arguments, whatever you want to say, anything you think 664 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:32,880 Speaker 1: that's left unsaid, and then we'll save the best for last, 665 00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:36,520 Speaker 1: and we'll go to you, Al for your closing arguments, 666 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:37,799 Speaker 1: and that's how we'll end the show. 667 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:40,880 Speaker 2: Well, I wanted to say thank you for having me 668 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:46,200 Speaker 2: on today and listening to the story about We barely 669 00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:49,040 Speaker 2: scratch the surface of all the crazy twists and turns 670 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:53,120 Speaker 2: of this case, but I appreciate you bringing this to 671 00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:55,680 Speaker 2: the audience. And Al, I just wanted to say thank 672 00:35:55,719 --> 00:36:00,000 Speaker 2: you for believing in me over this whole time, even 673 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:02,960 Speaker 2: when things haven't gone as we hoped. But I'm just 674 00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:05,920 Speaker 2: so delighted that you're home, and I'm so excited to 675 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:07,680 Speaker 2: see all the good that you're doing in the world. 676 00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:11,600 Speaker 2: And I'm happy that other people now finally get to 677 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:13,440 Speaker 2: see what I've been able to see for the last 678 00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:16,120 Speaker 2: eleven years that we've been working on this case together, 679 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:19,720 Speaker 2: and I'm excited to see what comes in your future, 680 00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:21,920 Speaker 2: but also just a reminder that you can't do it 681 00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:25,920 Speaker 2: all in a day, because I know you're trying well. 682 00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:29,600 Speaker 3: So, Jennifer, I want to first, I want to thank you. 683 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:32,480 Speaker 3: I want to thank Cassie. I want to thank Morgan. 684 00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:34,680 Speaker 3: I want to thank Virginia. I want to think Professor 685 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:38,560 Speaker 3: Gatzi for you know, backing us, putting you in position, 686 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:42,120 Speaker 3: for taking the case, taking a huge burden off of 687 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:46,600 Speaker 3: me and my family, you know. Thank you. Second, Jason, 688 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:49,640 Speaker 3: you talked about going to the governor for a pardon 689 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:53,000 Speaker 3: and helping in any way. You can thank you for that. 690 00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:57,560 Speaker 3: But I have two co defendants who are still incarcerated, 691 00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:02,640 Speaker 3: Benson Davis and John, and if we went to the 692 00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:07,200 Speaker 3: governor about anything, I would want the focus to be 693 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 3: them and their release because they're sitting in there. Their 694 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:14,799 Speaker 3: poor boy days didn't come up like Lenny's and ours did. 695 00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:19,160 Speaker 3: They're still in there and they don't deserve to be there, 696 00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:23,759 Speaker 3: so any efforts in that area I would love to 697 00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:26,480 Speaker 3: be focused on them. I'm gonna be all right, bro, 698 00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:32,840 Speaker 3: I'm gonna be okay. You know what I mean? With them? 699 00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:37,799 Speaker 3: And if anybody out there has any information, you know 700 00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:40,800 Speaker 3: what a long shot this is on a Wrongful Previction podcast. 701 00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:44,560 Speaker 3: Who knows somebody might listen to this and have some 702 00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:48,719 Speaker 3: information about who really committed the crimes. We think we 703 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:50,960 Speaker 3: know the truth, we think we know who did it, 704 00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:55,560 Speaker 3: but we need confirmation, we need concrete evidence. So please 705 00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:59,839 Speaker 3: contact my lawyer at the Innocence Project, Jennifer, please tell 706 00:37:59,920 --> 00:38:02,400 Speaker 3: us your number or who they can contact if you 707 00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:07,720 Speaker 3: have any information, contact them and let's get this overwent 708 00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:11,480 Speaker 3: so we can get these men out of prison. Jennifer, 709 00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:12,759 Speaker 3: please please tell them me you number. 710 00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:16,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, the Ohio Innocence Project. You can reach us 711 00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:20,040 Speaker 2: here at five one three five five six zero seven 712 00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:24,479 Speaker 2: five to two. And I also wanted to just add 713 00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:28,400 Speaker 2: that the fact that you know you were given the 714 00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:31,879 Speaker 2: chance to say anything after Jason, and your first thought 715 00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:33,680 Speaker 2: is to think of your two co defendants who are 716 00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:36,520 Speaker 2: still in prison, I think tells everybody all they need 717 00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:37,480 Speaker 2: to know about your character. 718 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:39,080 Speaker 3: Appreciate that. 719 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:49,040 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. 720 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:52,600 Speaker 1: Please support your local innocence projects and go to the 721 00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:54,600 Speaker 1: link in our bio to see how you can help. 722 00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:58,120 Speaker 1: I'd like to thank our production team Connor Hall, Jeff 723 00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:01,960 Speaker 1: Cliburn and Kevin Warnis. The music on the show, as always, 724 00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:05,080 Speaker 1: is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. 725 00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:06,040 Speaker 3: Be sure to. 726 00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:09,719 Speaker 1: Follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook 727 00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:13,719 Speaker 1: at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is 728 00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:16,640 Speaker 1: a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association with 729 00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:24,680 Speaker 1: Signal Company Number one