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Speaker 1: It's behind the Bastards. The podcast that yet again opened

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Speaker 1: with a tonal noises because I couldn't I couldn't think

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Speaker 1: of an introduction. Uh. This is partly the fault of Sophie,

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Speaker 1: who is not here today, um for reasons of of

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Speaker 1: of pure selfishness. Um. No, she hasn't a bunch of

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Speaker 1: unbelievable number of meetings. My guest today is Aiden Aidan

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Speaker 1: Bonacci Banacci Bacci, Aidan Bonacci. Aiden, you want to tell

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Speaker 1: the audience a little bit about yourself. My name is

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Speaker 1: Aidan Bonacci Um as of today, twenty eight year old.

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Speaker 1: Uh autistaic theater major. I tweet a lot, I do

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Speaker 1: a lot of like freelance work. It's nice to be here.

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Speaker 1: Nice to have you on, Aiden, and you are it's

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Speaker 1: your birthday, so happy birthday. Thank you, Thank you for

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Speaker 1: for making the time to show up. In the episode today,

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Speaker 1: we're we're going to talk about something all fun is

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Speaker 1: the wrong word. Have you heard of the Judge Rotenberg Center.

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Speaker 1: I'm that sounds familiar, but yeah, it's um it's not

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Speaker 1: a good place, obviously, this is the show that this

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Speaker 1: is um so one of the reasons you're obviously you're

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Speaker 1: you're an actor, you do theater stuff, but you're also,

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Speaker 1: as you said, autistic. And I wanted to bring in

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Speaker 1: somebody who was for this episode because we're gonna be

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Speaker 1: talking a lot about kind of well, I would say,

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Speaker 1: the dark ages of autism treatment. But this is still

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Speaker 1: going on although it's bad, Um, it's really bad, UM.

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Speaker 1: And this is I think when I reached out online looking, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, I want you to do an episode that

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Speaker 1: was going to touch on a lot of issues of

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Speaker 1: like autistic, like health care for autistic people. Folks expect

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Speaker 1: that I was either gonna do Hans Asberger, who is

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Speaker 1: absolutely a bastard um, or talk about there's a number

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Speaker 1: of things that this could have been. But we're talking

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Speaker 1: about the Judge Rodenberg Center, and specifically we're talking about Um,

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Speaker 1: the guy who who started it. So I want to

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Speaker 1: start by noting that autism didn't enter the d s

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Speaker 1: M as like a diagnosis until nineteen eighty. Obviously, people

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Speaker 1: were using the term before then. It was a thing

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Speaker 1: that a lot of medical professionals recognized existed. But there's

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Speaker 1: often a gap between when something is sort of like

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Speaker 1: recognized and when it actually enters the d s M,

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Speaker 1: and even when it entered the d s M and

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty, the diagnostic criteria for being declared autistic were,

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Speaker 1: to put it bluntly, more or less bullshit. Um, somebody

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Speaker 1: couldn't be autistic if their symptoms weren't a parent before

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Speaker 1: they were thirty months old, which we now know a

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Speaker 1: lot for a lot of people. It's like not until

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Speaker 1: you're your three or four that like stuff become that

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Speaker 1: symptoms become a parent. Um. And a bunch of things

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Speaker 1: we now recognize the signs of autism weren't recognized back then.

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Speaker 1: It was it was at like it just in terms

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Speaker 1: of like from a from a clinical standpoint, they didn't

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Speaker 1: have a good handle on like how to know if

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Speaker 1: somebody was autistic or not yet. Um. And kind of

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Speaker 1: making matters more complicated was the fact that many of

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Speaker 1: the doctors who were kind of pioneers and autism research

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Speaker 1: where ship shows as well. Um again, Hans Asberger, the

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Speaker 1: guy whose name gave us yeah, worked with the Nazis

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Speaker 1: to euthanize disabled people. Uh not a well we got

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Speaker 1: a little fat Yeah. Well we'll talk about him at

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Speaker 1: some point. I bring all this up to to acknowledge

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Speaker 1: that the history even like recognizing autism is fraught, UM,

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Speaker 1: and the history of educating autistic people through like the

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Speaker 1: school system is equally problematic because obviously, like once you

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Speaker 1: know that this is a thing, schools are going to,

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Speaker 1: you know, try to develop standards for how to how

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Speaker 1: to teach people who have autism, and UM, generally they're

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Speaker 1: going to do a bad job of this. UM. That's

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Speaker 1: been most of the history of the education system and

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Speaker 1: auto is UM. And I have a little bit of

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Speaker 1: personal knowledge here. I was a para professional for a

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Speaker 1: special ed classroom for about eighteen months. The kids I

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Speaker 1: worked with, Yeah, and it was not UM that we had.

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Speaker 1: There were kids with a variety of of of of

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Speaker 1: different kind of things. A lot of them were autistic. UM.

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Speaker 1: We had a kid who had a severe who had

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Speaker 1: had a head injury and like had had literally had

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Speaker 1: like a chunk of her brain scooped out in a

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Speaker 1: car accident. UM. We had kids with with Down syndrome.

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Speaker 1: We had you know, in my classroom, they were mostly UM.

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Speaker 1: I think the term we, the term used at the

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Speaker 1: time was nonverbal, which meant they couldn't communicate well or

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Speaker 1: at all. In a lot of cases via language, and

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Speaker 1: you know, we would develop we would use sign language,

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Speaker 1: we would use like cards, We had a bunch of

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Speaker 1: different kind of systems we would try to use to

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Speaker 1: help the kids communicate. And all of my my coworkers

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Speaker 1: cared a lot, but we also had effectively zero academic training.

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Speaker 1: They were like, out of I don't know twenty or

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Speaker 1: so people in the unit that I was in, there

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Speaker 1: were like two people who had gone to school to

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Speaker 1: any extent for what we were doing, and the rest

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Speaker 1: of us were just kind of yeah, we didn't know

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Speaker 1: what the funk we were doing. Yeah, um, And I

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Speaker 1: would say, you know, from the I've mentioned being a

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Speaker 1: special at a couple of times, and some people I

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Speaker 1: think make assumptions about the kind of the worst case

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Speaker 1: scenario for that. I don't believe we did anything that

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Speaker 1: was like harmful in terms of our our our teaching techniques.

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Speaker 1: We weren't using any of the stuff that we'll be

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Speaker 1: talking about today, any of like the really brutal methods

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Speaker 1: that have been used. But I don't think anything we did.

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Speaker 1: Most of what we did was very useful either because

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Speaker 1: we didn't really know what we were doing, like we

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Speaker 1: That's part of The problem with I don't know the

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Speaker 1: whole when when kind of the education system intersects with

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Speaker 1: healthcare in any way, is um, most don't really get

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Speaker 1: good results exactly don't. And as somebody who was in

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Speaker 1: Special Edge from like first grade through fifth grade that

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Speaker 1: you definitely got a lot more of they really wanted

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Speaker 1: to try, but there really wasn't much they could do

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Speaker 1: in terms like helping out and one that they really cared.

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Speaker 1: But you can definitely tell compared to like other classes

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Speaker 1: that they're kind of shorthanded, yeah, shorthanded and not. You know,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of specialized knowledge that is required, both

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Speaker 1: in terms of like how to educate kids who may

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Speaker 1: you know, interpret kind of verbal command or verbal stimuli

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Speaker 1: or whatever in a different way, who maybe who may

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Speaker 1: have kind of sensory um like would be fundamentally like

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Speaker 1: kind of see and hear differently than everybody else. Like

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Speaker 1: that requires a lot of specialized knowledge to work with.

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Speaker 1: Outside of that, there's also like medical stuff like again,

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Speaker 1: I was going to this job with no training and

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Speaker 1: when I started was dealing with like a grand mall

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Speaker 1: seizure every day. Um, and it is I didn't like

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Speaker 1: we didn't we didn't like get good information on what

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Speaker 1: to do with that stuff. It was kind of like

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Speaker 1: learn on the job, which is not not a good

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Speaker 1: You shouldn't be learning on the job if you're treating

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Speaker 1: children having Yeah, no, not something you really want to

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Speaker 1: leave a few weeks, if not a lot more training officire. Yeah. Um. Now,

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Speaker 1: some of the students that I worked with had really

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Speaker 1: serious issues with violence. And again I've mentioned this before. Um,

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Speaker 1: from most of them, this was an occasional thing. It

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Speaker 1: would be maybe once a year, and it wasn't you know,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't their fault. It was something kind of flipped

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Speaker 1: in their head and they would they would get aggressive

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Speaker 1: generally because they were frightened. Um. But there were some kids,

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Speaker 1: one particular kid that was my major have to deal with,

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Speaker 1: for whom violence was a really daily issue and the

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Speaker 1: problem was severe in this kid's case. When you're talking

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Speaker 1: about kids with problems like that where they are either

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Speaker 1: very self injurious and this this kid I'm talking about,

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Speaker 1: was injured himself more than he injured other people. That's

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Speaker 1: a serious issue because he's not only a danger, he

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Speaker 1: could he could seriously injure other people. Um, he could

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Speaker 1: seriously injured, kill himself. Um that's a real issue, and

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Speaker 1: it's a real issue that our school, which was a

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Speaker 1: normal high school, was not at all equipped to handle.

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Speaker 1: And I feel very comfortable saying I had no business

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Speaker 1: working with a kid whose needs were so specialized. UM So,

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Speaker 1: I understand the need for residential facilities that can take

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Speaker 1: care of some of kids with issues this severe and

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Speaker 1: an ongoing basis. There's just cases like that where you

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Speaker 1: run to need people who are specialized in that type

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Speaker 1: of work and can be responsible and not have to

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Speaker 1: be like, oh, ship, what I do? Yeah, And there

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Speaker 1: are for some of these kids you need two seven

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Speaker 1: care because again you can't necessarily predict their self injurious

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Speaker 1: behavior or they need a tremendous amount of consistency in

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Speaker 1: order to make progress, and you just can't do that

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Speaker 1: in eight hours a day at a public school. Um

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Speaker 1: So the problem. So again I'm starting this by saying,

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Speaker 1: I get that there is potentially a need for residential facilities,

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Speaker 1: but as we've discussed on the show before, many residential

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Speaker 1: schools with kids for behavioral issues are fucking nightmares. And

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Speaker 1: I'm talking about the Allan School here, I'm talking about

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Speaker 1: like troubled kids schools. Um. And those places are nightmares

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Speaker 1: in catering to kids who are if not neuro typical,

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Speaker 1: than at least not you know, generally not dealing with

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Speaker 1: autism or a particularly specialist diagnosis, their kids with like

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Speaker 1: a behavioral issue, their kids who got into drugs or something.

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Speaker 1: Right at a place like the law school. When you

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Speaker 1: take it to a further step of specialization, where you're

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Speaker 1: dealing with with children with autism or children with other

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Speaker 1: very specific diagnoses, that's a whole another ball game. Um.

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Speaker 1: And it gets a lot sketchier because there's a lot

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Speaker 1: less specialization to deal with these places. So if you

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Speaker 1: kind of can bill yourself as an expert in whatever

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Speaker 1: these kids have, you can get away with a lot

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Speaker 1: of really terrible treatments, and people looking at in from

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Speaker 1: the outside will be like, well, I guess that's just

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Speaker 1: what you do with those kids, you know. Um, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's not surprising. Yeah, And that's the subject of today

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Speaker 1: the Judge Rotenberg Center. So our story starts with a

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Speaker 1: man named Matthew Israel. He was born at some point

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Speaker 1: in the nineteen thirties. I have not found an exact year.

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Speaker 1: He was a contemporary of Michael Ducocus. They were friends

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Speaker 1: so around when Ducacus was artinism and I guess when,

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Speaker 1: uh when? Um, matt Israel was born. He was born

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Speaker 1: in Brookline, Massachusetts. His dad was a lawyer. He was

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Speaker 1: the youngest of two brothers. And to the extent that

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Speaker 1: Matthew has told interviewers about his family, he claims that

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Speaker 1: his parents were loving and seldom spank him. Um. So

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Speaker 1: that's good, and that's gonna be relevant here in a

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Speaker 1: little bit. But punishment was not a central focus of

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Speaker 1: his parents parenting strategies. Um. He went to Brookline High

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Speaker 1: School and he was good friends again with Michael Ducaucus,

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Speaker 1: who would later be governor of Massachusetts and would also

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Speaker 1: fail to become the president. Um, Matthew and Michael ran

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Speaker 1: across country track together and we're good friends. This will

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Speaker 1: become relevant later. Now we know a lot less about

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Speaker 1: Israel's early life than I would prefer, but we do

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Speaker 1: know that in high school he was kicked out of

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Speaker 1: an honor society after he spoke out against the school's

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Speaker 1: plan to allow athletes and people who pursued non academic

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Speaker 1: extracurricular activities into the club. He told one interviewer that

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Speaker 1: it was too much of an artificial reward system. So

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Speaker 1: he didn't like that the Gifted program was being extended

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Speaker 1: to people who were good at I don't know, like

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Speaker 1: music and theater. He oh, yeah, okay, one of those Yeah,

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Speaker 1: one of those guys like it's not math. It's like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's not football. I mean, yeah, he's he's just he's

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Speaker 1: a little bit of an elitist, maybe, like an academic

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Speaker 1: elitist and specifics. So in nineteen fifty is Reel started

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Speaker 1: at Harvard. He was fascinated with behavioral psychology, and he

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Speaker 1: had the good fortune to be taught by one of

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Speaker 1: the single most influential psychologists in the history of the discipline,

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Speaker 1: a guy named B. F. Skinner. Skinner was probably the

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Speaker 1: dominant psychologist of the mid twentieth century, and he specialized

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Speaker 1: in what's called behaviorism. Skinner believed that all human behavior

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Speaker 1: could be boiled down to environmental operant conditioning and the

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Speaker 1: reinforcement of selected responses with rewards or punishment. Skinner essentially

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Speaker 1: rejected the idea of free will, which he acknowledged quote

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Speaker 1: seems to question dignity or worth as and if people

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Speaker 1: don't have free will. If we're just robots responding to stimuli,

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Speaker 1: maybe we don't have any dignity yourself worth. But as

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Speaker 1: he pointed out, this also meant that under his analysis

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Speaker 1: of behavior, blame for bad behavior and credit for good

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Speaker 1: behavior we're both shifted to the environment. So you're never

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Speaker 1: responsible if you do bad or good things. It's the

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Speaker 1: result of the stimuli that has been fed into your brain. Um,

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Speaker 1: which is, you know, not my view of reality. It's

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Speaker 1: a pretty bleak y yeah. I mean it's it's bleak

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Speaker 1: in some ways because it kind of reduces, it flattens

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Speaker 1: the moral universe. Um. But it also means that like, potentially,

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Speaker 1: if you can figure out how to feed in the

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Speaker 1: good stimuli to people's brains, you can stop you know,

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Speaker 1: genocide and whatnot. You could you could deal with all

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Speaker 1: of that just by feeding people different different input um.

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Speaker 1: His hope was that accepting this, like accepting this reality

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Speaker 1: about how people worked, would lead to a new organization

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Speaker 1: of society based around social trolls that would be more

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Speaker 1: purposeful than the random positive and negative reinforcements in society.

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Speaker 1: In other words, like we're just the result of the

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Speaker 1: stimuli that's been fed into us. Um, but because it's

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Speaker 1: being kind of fed in randomly, and nobody's nobody's making

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Speaker 1: a concerted effort to make sure that like specific goods,

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Speaker 1: stimuli you know, kind of are are are put into

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Speaker 1: people's heads. Um, that's why all this messed up. That's

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Speaker 1: why society is so messed up. And if you could

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Speaker 1: just be consistent and whatnot, you could fix all these problems.

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Speaker 1: That's that's Skinner's kind of roughly Skinner's idea, I am again,

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Speaker 1: I'm flattening a decades long career and psychology. This is

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Speaker 1: the gist of it. Um Skinner wrote, quote, man struggle

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Speaker 1: for freedom is not due to a will to be free,

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Speaker 1: but to certain behavioral processes characteristic of the human organism,

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Speaker 1: the chief effect of which is the avoidance of, or

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Speaker 1: escape from, so called aversive features of the environment. Physical

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Speaker 1: and biological technologies have been mainly concerned with natural aversive stimuli.

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Speaker 1: The struggle for freedom is concerned with stimuli intentionally arranged

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Speaker 1: by other people. The literature of freedom has identified the

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Speaker 1: other people and has proposed ways of escaping from them

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Speaker 1: or weakening or destroying their power. It has been successful

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Speaker 1: in reducing the aversive stimuli used in intentional control, but

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Speaker 1: it has made the mistake of defining freedom in terms

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Speaker 1: of state of mind or feelings, and it has therefore

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Speaker 1: not been able to effectively deal with techniques of control

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Speaker 1: which do not breed escape or revolt, but nevertheless have

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Speaker 1: aversive consequences. It has been forced to brand all control

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Speaker 1: is wrong and to misrepresent many of the advantages to

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Speaker 1: be gained from a social environment. It is unprepared for

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Speaker 1: the next step, which is not to freemen from control,

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Speaker 1: but to analyze and change the kinds of control to

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Speaker 1: which they are exposed. See you see what he's saying there. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm seeing what he's saying. But there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of ways you can definitely miss interpreter and construe it. Yeah, absolutely,

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Speaker 1: And it's you can see both sides of this to

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Speaker 1: where like, right now in the US, the ideology of

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Speaker 1: freedom as it's often interpreted by particularly folks on the right,

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Speaker 1: has lit in the situation where like people are showing

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Speaker 1: up armed outside of schools because they don't think kids

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Speaker 1: should be made to wear masks during a pandemic. Um,

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Speaker 1: and that is a problem. And he's kind of pointing

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Speaker 1: out that, like, Um, but the kind of the the

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Speaker 1: tech the angle he's looking at this from is that

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Speaker 1: like the ideology of freedom, Um has has made it.

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Speaker 1: His has kind of made it seem like a bad

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Speaker 1: guys sort of thing to try and analyze the stimuli

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Speaker 1: people are exposed to and alter them in order to

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Speaker 1: change their behavior. Um and Skinner thinks that that's what

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Speaker 1: we ought to be doing. Right. So Skinner was interested

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Speaker 1: and nothing less than the controlled future evolution of human

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Speaker 1: beings with proper conditioning techniques. He believed all conflict, responsible behavior,

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Speaker 1: and the calamitous consequences of freedom could be erased. As

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Speaker 1: Skinner wrote, quote, a scientific view of man offers exciting

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Speaker 1: post abilities. We have not yet seen what man can

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Speaker 1: make of man. And I mean I can see he's

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Speaker 1: definitely looking at it from a positive angle. It's just

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Speaker 1: there's a lot to work around with that, at least

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Speaker 1: in my opinion, there is. And I think Skinner a

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Speaker 1: big chunk of what he's doing is kind of a

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Speaker 1: response to everything that happened in the first part of

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Speaker 1: the twentieth century. The disasters under state communism, the gin

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Speaker 1: sides of the Nazis, the horrors of the world wars,

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Speaker 1: and this idea that like, well, this is clearly terrible,

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Speaker 1: we could if we can make people better, if we

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Speaker 1: can like, if we can feed them better stimuli, we

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Speaker 1: can stop all this. At the same time he's kind

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Speaker 1: of doing He's what he's saying, you can find not

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Speaker 1: dissimilar things that the Nazis were saying, Man, can we

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Speaker 1: can make the human race better by kind right away?

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Speaker 1: But I was leaning towards yet And Skinner is not

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Speaker 1: a eugenicist. But anytime you're saying we can improve the

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Speaker 1: human race through like selective decisions and whatnot that may

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Speaker 1: limit people's freedom, you're not on a totally different wavelength.

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Speaker 1: Then you can also but draw some comparisons to like

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Speaker 1: the idea of the new Soviet man, and these these

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Speaker 1: strains of thought, these I and they're all cutting from

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Speaker 1: a similar place, which is that like in the early

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Speaker 1: half of the twentieth century, you're seeing all these horrible calamities, um,

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Speaker 1: human caused calamities, these terrifying wars and famines and genocide,

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Speaker 1: and you've got a lot of people being like, well

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Speaker 1: maybe we maybe we could do better than that. Um.

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Speaker 1: The problem is that it can lead you in some

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Speaker 1: and again I really want to easy. Skinner is not

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Speaker 1: a Nazi. He's not talking about eugenics. But you can see,

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Speaker 1: you can see how people could take some of the

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Speaker 1: things he's saying and turn them in unsettling directions. To

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Speaker 1: the road can be to how can be paved with

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Speaker 1: good intentions? Yes, yeah, and I that's that's not so

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Speaker 1: much Skinner because he's certainly not the bad guy here,

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Speaker 1: But that's kind of where his ideology leads. Matt is real.

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Speaker 1: Um So Matt fell in love with Skinners theories. At

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Speaker 1: the library one day he found a book his professor

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Speaker 1: had written but not assigned to the class, a book

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Speaker 1: called Walden two. And I'm gonna quote from a write

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Speaker 1: up in Boston Magazine quote. The controversial book is about

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Speaker 1: a utopian society where behaviors can be modified for the

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Speaker 1: benefit of all inhabitants. It is based on Skinner's theory

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Speaker 1: of operant conditioning. If an action is rewarded, it increases

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Speaker 1: the likelihood that the person will perform the action again.

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Speaker 1: This is, after all, how Skinner had taught pigeons to

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Speaker 1: play table tennis by rewarding the behaviors that led to

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Speaker 1: their game. Israel Lasers said of the book. It was

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Speaker 1: a real inspiration. I knew what I wanted to do

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Speaker 1: with my life. It was a feeling similar to those

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Speaker 1: claiming to have religious conversions. I wanted to start a

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Speaker 1: real utopian behavioral community. And this is um He's not

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Speaker 1: the only one who gets impacted this way by Walden two.

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Speaker 1: There's actually a whole subculture that forms around trying to

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Speaker 1: build utopian communities based around Skinner's ideas of operant conditioning. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: I'm also interested in utopian communities. I planned one day

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Speaker 1: to start one that will build a paradise on Earth

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Speaker 1: before it's torn us under in a hail of fire

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Speaker 1: and bullets from the f d A. And Matt had

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Speaker 1: the same ambition, m Oh yeah, I mean, who wouldn't

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Speaker 1: Who wouldn't want to build a paradise based around the

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Speaker 1: fundamental moral precept that you shouldn't be told by the

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Speaker 1: government what pills are and aren't healthy, or what pills

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Speaker 1: do and don't contain lead. I think we have the

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Speaker 1: freedom to ingest all sorts of brain pills and to

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Speaker 1: claim that they care all sorts of diseases. And I

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Speaker 1: I challenged the f d A to increase their munitions

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Speaker 1: budget enough to stop me. So Matt had a similar ambition,

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Speaker 1: without desiring an armed conflict with the f d A.

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Speaker 1: But being a young PhD candidate just getting started in

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Speaker 1: the world, he didn't really have a way to achieve

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Speaker 1: this dream, and sort of his his desire to start

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Speaker 1: a utopian community and his lack of resources led to

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Speaker 1: a period of depression for him. He later said, it

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Speaker 1: was a very difficult period. I thought about committing suicide.

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Speaker 1: If I couldn't bring a community into existence, what since

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Speaker 1: was life worth living? So he worked on his doctor

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Speaker 1: and he helped b. F. Skinner teach pigeons to play

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Speaker 1: ping pong. In nineteen sixty he received his doctorate, and

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Speaker 1: he used his formidable skill as a hype man to

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Speaker 1: try and raise capital to start a firm teach selling

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Speaker 1: teaching machines. His goal was to spend the profits from

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Speaker 1: this business into a utopian social project, but the business

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Speaker 1: didn't do well, and in nineteen sixty six, Israel was

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Speaker 1: not particularly close to achieving his dream. That year, though,

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Speaker 1: he attended a walden To conference where other weird b F.

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Speaker 1: Skinner nerds talked about how to start their own utopian societies.

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Speaker 1: Eighty three people attended, and he met a couple of

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Speaker 1: folks who were willing to get involved in such a

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Speaker 1: project with him. And it was a very minor scale

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Speaker 1: at this point. So in nineteen sixty seven, he and

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Speaker 1: a couple of these folks start a communal home in Arlington, Virginia.

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Speaker 1: Um and it's as utopian communities go, very small. It's

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Speaker 1: basically Matt Israel, a guy and his girlfriend, a teacher,

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Speaker 1: and her young daughter named Andrea. UM. So not a

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Speaker 1: big community. And this little girl, Andrea was, according to

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Speaker 1: Matt Israel, a real problem. He later said quote she

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Speaker 1: walked around the living room with a toy broom, hitting people.

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Speaker 1: She also screamed and threw tantrums often enough that Israel

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Speaker 1: claims I was forced to do behavior modification. So this

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Speaker 1: is the first time that he tries to alter a

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Speaker 1: human being through operat conditioning, right, um or at least

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Speaker 1: his first recorded times. I don't know that's a weird

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Speaker 1: I guess you could see. It's not any different than

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Speaker 1: like any other parent being like, oh, this kid is

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Speaker 1: doing something they shouldn't be doing. I'm gonna I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: like punish them or try otherwise to get them to

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Speaker 1: stop doing the thing. But it's not your kid. They

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Speaker 1: start seeing dicey. Yeah, it starts getting dicey, And I

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Speaker 1: guess like it's kind of unsettling too. For whatever reason,

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Speaker 1: it's less unsettled to be like, oh, you know, my

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Speaker 1: kid is is throwing tantrums, so I'm going to like

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Speaker 1: do this in order to try to get them to stop.

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Speaker 1: That's less unsettling to me than saying like, oh, this

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Speaker 1: kid is engaged in bad behavior and I'm going to

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Speaker 1: condition them to do better behavior through like operation. It's like,

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Speaker 1: not you're grounded, but you're going to get modified. It's like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're going to get modified. That's unsettling a little bit. Um.

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Speaker 1: He says he got the mom's permission to work on

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Speaker 1: her child. We've got only his word here. I have

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Speaker 1: not heard any interviews with any of the people who

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Speaker 1: are in this with him. Um, But given what comes next,

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Speaker 1: I will note that Matt Israel is really good at

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Speaker 1: convincing parents to let him experiment on their kids. So

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Speaker 1: I don't have trouble believing that water to it. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think he probably did get Andrea's mom's permission. The

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Speaker 1: methods he used to alter her behavior were called aversives.

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Speaker 1: Put bluntly, aversives are unpleasant stimuli done to a person

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Speaker 1: or animal in order to change their behavior. The classic

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Speaker 1: example of an adversive would be a punishment, although aversives

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Speaker 1: are not always administered as punishments, because like a punishment is,

428
00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:04,720
Speaker 1: somebody does someone does something undesirable, and you do something

429
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:07,439
Speaker 1: undesirable to them to make them associate the two. Right,

430
00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:10,760
Speaker 1: that's a punishment. Aversives can be punishments, but they can

431
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:13,480
Speaker 1: also occur before the behavior. There's a number of ways

432
00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:15,240
Speaker 1: to apply them. We'll talk about that a bit later.

433
00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:19,639
Speaker 1: The first adversive he used was time out. When Andrea

434
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:22,399
Speaker 1: would scream, Matt would put her in a bedroom, close

435
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:25,160
Speaker 1: the door, and hold it shut. He would keep track

436
00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:27,120
Speaker 1: of how long she screamed at him through the door

437
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:31,000
Speaker 1: using a chart. Over time, her tantrums diminished. But Israel

438
00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:33,359
Speaker 1: also found the act of holding a door shut on

439
00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:37,520
Speaker 1: a screaming child to be exhausting and demoralizing for obvious reasons,

440
00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:43,480
Speaker 1: and ye seems kind of bad. At one point, his

441
00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:46,960
Speaker 1: patients ran out and he slapped Andrea, saying there's no

442
00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:50,440
Speaker 1: screaming and time out now. This would mark the first

443
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:53,879
Speaker 1: time Matt used physical violence on a child to alter behavior.

444
00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,080
Speaker 1: And he doesn't say in interviews what impact this hat

445
00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:59,200
Speaker 1: on her, But according to an interview with Israel and

446
00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:02,920
Speaker 1: the Boston Nix, here's what came next. Quote. He began

447
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:05,560
Speaker 1: to use a combination of rewards and punishments with Andrea.

448
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:08,400
Speaker 1: I was a tremendous source of reward for Andrea, he says,

449
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:11,480
Speaker 1: she was very cute, very smart, and very appreciative of attention.

450
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:14,640
Speaker 1: I found that a combination of extraordinary rewards an occasional

451
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:18,000
Speaker 1: aversive made an environment that helped change her whole personality.

452
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,359
Speaker 1: Matt Israel's training had begun with Skinner, who believed you

453
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:24,440
Speaker 1: didn't need to use aversions, but Israel could see the results.

454
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,000
Speaker 1: Punishment is a fact of culture, he says. When the

455
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:29,440
Speaker 1: police find you for parking in a no parking zone,

456
00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:32,600
Speaker 1: that's punishment. Andrea had been a spoiled bratt, but she

457
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:36,399
Speaker 1: became a pleasant, attractive, charming feature in the house. So

458
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:40,840
Speaker 1: that's a little unsettling to write that attractive. I don't

459
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,080
Speaker 1: like that part. I don't like that, and I don't

460
00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:46,640
Speaker 1: like describing a human being as a feature. Oh yeah, yeah,

461
00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:51,199
Speaker 1: that's that's a little unsettling too. It's like two bedrooms,

462
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:56,280
Speaker 1: one bath, one attractive feature, Yeah, one attractive small child. Yeah.

463
00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:00,680
Speaker 1: There's the way he talks about people is consistent the unnerving.

464
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:03,480
Speaker 1: It will only get more so. But you know what's

465
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:10,760
Speaker 1: not consistently unnerving? Um, I don't know what products and services?

466
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:14,320
Speaker 1: Oh yes, the products and services to help keep this

467
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:18,720
Speaker 1: a float. And and we guarantee here behind the bastards

468
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 1: that less than a fifth of our sponsors have ever

469
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:24,119
Speaker 1: referred to a small child as an attractive feat And

470
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:27,480
Speaker 1: that's as good as you're gonna get in the podcast business. Look, honestly,

471
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:31,159
Speaker 1: that's spressive. Yeah, we we we worked hard for those numbers.

472
00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:42,720
Speaker 1: We're back so at Around the same time Matt Israel

473
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:46,800
Speaker 1: started his Arlington Commune, he had formed a national organization

474
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:50,880
Speaker 1: with a very dystopian name, the Association for Social Design.

475
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:55,280
Speaker 1: Its objective was to establish a network of associated experimental

476
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:57,960
Speaker 1: communities and cities throughout the world. He was essentially taking

477
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:00,919
Speaker 1: there's this subculture of Wolden Two fans who are all

478
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 1: trying to build these little utopias based off of Skinner's ideas,

479
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:05,920
Speaker 1: and he's trying to unite them in kind of like

480
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:09,359
Speaker 1: a physical social network. Now there's a guy named Hilkey

481
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:13,199
Speaker 1: Coolman who's a historian of this subculture. He's a historian

482
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:16,000
Speaker 1: of like specifically, the people who like rallied around Walden

483
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:19,159
Speaker 1: to uh and Coleman writes that Israel's goal was to

484
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:23,040
Speaker 1: take B. F. Skinner's utopian experiments a step further. Privately,

485
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:27,280
Speaker 1: Israel started to call his work Walden three. That said,

486
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,200
Speaker 1: his first utopian experiment did not end well, as happens

487
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,359
Speaker 1: with most of these experiments, the adults themselves couldn't get along,

488
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 1: and eventually the whole thing fell apart. I've never heard

489
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:38,160
Speaker 1: an interview with the other adults who lived with Matt,

490
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:40,359
Speaker 1: but I would very much like to. I suspect his

491
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 1: behavior was a larger part of things than he led on.

492
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 1: He tried another communal living situation after that, which also

493
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 1: fell apart. And this quote from the Boston Phoenix gives

494
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:53,200
Speaker 1: some context as to why the problem with the houses,

495
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:55,880
Speaker 1: says Israel, was that the residents weren't really buying into

496
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:59,639
Speaker 1: the behavior mod mode. There was very little control over

497
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:04,120
Speaker 1: the part participants. Israel says, they could always move out. Coleman,

498
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:07,600
Speaker 1: who has studied this whole subculture extensively, also blames Israel

499
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:09,920
Speaker 1: for the collapse of his two utopian projects and the

500
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 1: collapse of the Association for Social Design. From a write

501
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 1: up and Wired quote it Live in Walden to Coleman

502
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,680
Speaker 1: blames Israel, suggesting he is the commune's patriarch when of

503
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 1: his inhabitants to live lives based on altering one another's behavior,

504
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:25,680
Speaker 1: the others and the communes and the Association thought this

505
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 1: was no life at all. So you get what he's

506
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 1: saying here, like this is this is an extension of

507
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:33,400
Speaker 1: what he's saying about this kid. He's treating these people

508
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:36,960
Speaker 1: not like people but like machines, and he's angry that

509
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 1: they have the ability to leave. They don't just passively

510
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:42,479
Speaker 1: take his input. They have the ability to say like, well,

511
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 1: I don't like this and I'm going. And he's not

512
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 1: a fan of that. No, it's not enough control for him.

513
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:52,240
Speaker 1: And you can see how a guy whose attitude who's

514
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:55,240
Speaker 1: who's who blames the failure of his utopian communes on

515
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,400
Speaker 1: free will might not be the guy you want having

516
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:02,879
Speaker 1: total control over a group of autistic children who are

517
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:06,960
Speaker 1: forced to live in his residential facility. Oh. Absolutely, you

518
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:10,760
Speaker 1: can setting in a bad direction, right when his issue

519
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:13,239
Speaker 1: is it's the fact that these people can leave as

520
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:19,919
Speaker 1: the real problem. So it's my opinion that Matt Israel

521
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:21,720
Speaker 1: is sort of a predator. And I based that in

522
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:25,280
Speaker 1: large part the fact that once his two utopic experiments

523
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 1: failed because the adults wouldn't do whatever he said, he

524
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 1: decided to start a school. Specifically, he wanted to start

525
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:35,120
Speaker 1: a school for kids whose disabilities would render them less

526
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 1: able to defend or advocate for themselves. This is not

527
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 1: far from how he trained framed it, and this is

528
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 1: what he says in an interview about his decision to

529
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 1: start a school quote maybe a school for the emotionally disturbed.

530
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 1: He says behaviorism is the kind of thing, particularly in

531
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:51,760
Speaker 1: these days, that has been allowed to be applied to

532
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 1: the handicapped. So he's like, adults won't let me do

533
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 1: this to them, but people that you do this to

534
00:28:57,640 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 1: handicap kids. And as a note here, we're going to

535
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 1: read a number of quotes from articles and individuals who

536
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 1: use terms for people with autism and other and other

537
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 1: um diagnoses that are not modern or appropriate terms. I

538
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 1: am not changing the wording these people used because in

539
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:17,320
Speaker 1: part it's very useful and understanding how they think about

540
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 1: these kids, um, like erasing parts of it and yeah,

541
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 1: that would be kind of lessening the monsters or exactly exactly, well, yeah, yeah,

542
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 1: and I don't want to be doing that. So Israel

543
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 1: claims that he got the idea to start a school

544
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 1: when he visited a hospital in Providence and this hospital

545
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 1: had a residential program for emersial emotionally disturbed kids. And

546
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:43,480
Speaker 1: when they say emotionally disturbed, a lot of these kids

547
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 1: are I wouldn't even I wouldn't call them like, I'm

548
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 1: sure they're they have their emotional but like their their

549
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 1: kids with who are maybe autistic, who have something going on,

550
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:55,720
Speaker 1: and there's not any kind of good treatment program, and

551
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 1: so people register that is like, oh, it's emotionally disturbed,

552
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 1: when it's like no, really, you don't know how to

553
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 1: talk to this kid, or communicate to this kid or

554
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 1: or help them like integrate into society, and so they're unhappy.

555
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 1: Like that's what a lot of times we talked about

556
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 1: emotionally disturbed. That's what we're talking about is these kids

557
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 1: who just nobody people have not figured out a good

558
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 1: way to integrate them into society, and so want to

559
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 1: integrate them. People don't want to integrate them, Yes, and

560
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 1: they're unhappy for very justifiable reasons. Um. So the director

561
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 1: of this residential facility, like Matt Israel comes to visit

562
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 1: and like, look at how they're they're working with these kids.

563
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:36,880
Speaker 1: And the director of the facility asks him a quote,

564
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:40,840
Speaker 1: do you think behavior modification would work on autistic children?

565
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 1: Israel told them, yeah, I think it will, And so

566
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 1: he decides to he starts a unit in that hospital

567
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 1: to experiment on this with six kids, using a mix

568
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:52,920
Speaker 1: of food rewards, spankings, time outs, and spraying them in

569
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 1: the face with a bottle of water to alter their behavior. Right,

570
00:30:56,480 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 1: so from the cats, Yeah, yeah, what a bit cats.

571
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 1: He loves spraying kids in the face. That's actually a

572
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 1: big part of for decades his his um and and

573
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:10,560
Speaker 1: again when we talk about like critiques of Skinner, Skinner

574
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:12,840
Speaker 1: when he's talking about altering people's behavior, is not really

575
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 1: a big fan of aversives, but Israel really focuses down

576
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 1: on them and seems to think that like like punishments,

577
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 1: and in a lot of cases physically violent punishments like

578
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:26,640
Speaker 1: spanking are the best way to to to to end

579
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 1: behaviors that are bad from these kids. Um. So he

580
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 1: starts this. He does this for nine months or so,

581
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:35,960
Speaker 1: working with these kids, and it goes well enough, at

582
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 1: least by his jest definition of it. Than in nineteen

583
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 1: seventy one, he starts the behavior Research Institute in Providence,

584
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 1: Rhode Island. Now, autism again was not a recognized DSM

585
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 1: diagnosis in but there were, of course autistic people. There

586
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 1: have been autistic people since the presumably the beginning of

587
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:58,160
Speaker 1: the human race. Um. One of the things that's very

588
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 1: frustrating is like the anti VAC people will be like, look,

589
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 1: autism has gone up a thousand percent in the last

590
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,200
Speaker 1: twenty years. You know, this is evidence that there's some poisons.

591
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 1: Like no, you just called these kids emotionally disturbed and

592
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 1: hit them in the seventies like they were still there.

593
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 1: You just put them in psych works. Yeah, you put

594
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:19,480
Speaker 1: them in psych words. They sometimes they got killed, like

595
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 1: it was never very uh like they were around though,

596
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 1: you just pretended they weren't. Um. Yeah, So there on

597
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 1: day one, as he starts the Behavioral Research Institute Israel,

598
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 1: has two patients. It starts from a very small standpoint.

599
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:36,440
Speaker 1: His His first two patients are a schizophrenic adult male

600
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:41,120
Speaker 1: and a teenager with autism. Um. From the beginning, Israel's

601
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 1: plan was to alter behaviors and his patients that were

602
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 1: antisocial by using aversive stimuli. And again he was very

603
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 1: focused on punishment. The b R I saw early success.

604
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:53,440
Speaker 1: And again I don't know, like I don't have an

605
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:55,880
Speaker 1: objective way of evaluating whether or not it was successful.

606
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 1: But it was successful in the financial sense, and that

607
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 1: he was able to convince people that his work was

608
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 1: good and get more money and get more patients enrolled.

609
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:11,160
Speaker 1: And generally it is the state enrolling these patients, you know, um, success, Yeah, yeah,

610
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 1: they considered it a success. And it's also these are

611
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 1: these are kids who have generally very severe behavior issues,

612
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:21,040
Speaker 1: and are the states are like, well, obviously a regular

613
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 1: high school isn't a good place for them. This guy

614
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 1: says he can help even the most extreme kids. Let's

615
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 1: pay him to take them off our hands. We don't

616
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 1: have to worry about them anymore. Um. And there's always

617
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 1: with this, it's always framed as like, well, no one

618
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:34,920
Speaker 1: else could help these kids. But there's always a huge

619
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 1: there's always a huge angle of like, well, but you

620
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 1: didn't really too, you wanted to get rid of these kids,

621
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:43,080
Speaker 1: and he offered you a hole to put them in.

622
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 1: You know that's always a chunk of this Oh, absolutely, yeah.

623
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 1: So uh. The b R I, yeah, was was financially

624
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:54,480
Speaker 1: successful early on. In nineteen seventy two, is really open

625
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 1: to residential program for the school in a wing of

626
00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:00,200
Speaker 1: a facility for schizophrenic patients. By nineteen seventy five, Life

627
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 1: he'd opened a second home in sekonk. Two years later,

628
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:06,080
Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy seven, he founded a West Coast branch

629
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:09,920
Speaker 1: of b r in California. He opened several more residential

630
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:12,080
Speaker 1: homes on the East coast after that, and by nineteen

631
00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:14,400
Speaker 1: eighty he had completely given up on his dreams of

632
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 1: creating a utopia in favor of building schools for these

633
00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 1: kind of of of patients. Wired talks briefly in their

634
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:26,360
Speaker 1: article about his early methods. Quote. They used diversive therapy

635
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:29,240
Speaker 1: at b R I. They used positive reinforcement to food

636
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 1: and toys in an air continuous stream of compliments for

637
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 1: behaving well. But it was the aversives that drew attention.

638
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:38,920
Speaker 1: Teachers pinched students, spanked them with spatulas, stuck ammonia pellets

639
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:41,560
Speaker 1: beneath their nostrils. And put them in white noise helmets.

640
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,600
Speaker 1: Israel saw aversive therapy and still sees it as the

641
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:48,360
Speaker 1: best response to self injurious and disruptive behavior. He almost

642
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 1: never doped his pupils, a position he holds to this day.

643
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:53,800
Speaker 1: He believes drugs often only saved the patient, they do

644
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:56,759
Speaker 1: not solve her problems. Israel then is now put his

645
00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:06,760
Speaker 1: trust in punishment. So didn't them but give him a smack.

646
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:09,799
Speaker 1: He'll give him a smack, He'll he'll he'll spray them

647
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:13,320
Speaker 1: with ammonia. Like there's all sorts of it. Is like

648
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:16,520
Speaker 1: he's right, and that a lot of like the medication

649
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 1: treatments that are given to these kids are horrible, Like

650
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:23,719
Speaker 1: they're just drugging them into non existence in a lot

651
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 1: of cases, which is fucked up. And he's recognizing that.

652
00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:28,319
Speaker 1: And he's also this is part of how he gets

653
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:30,120
Speaker 1: a lot of parents on this side, because parents see

654
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:31,920
Speaker 1: what it's like to have their kids drug like this

655
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:34,160
Speaker 1: and they're horrified by it. And he's like, no, no, no,

656
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 1: simple punishment, I can stop these behaviors. The problem is

657
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:41,359
Speaker 1: that a lot of what he's doing is torturing them

658
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:45,799
Speaker 1: into not doing these behaviors. Um and when you hear pinching, right,

659
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 1: you may think that's kind of weird or even that's

660
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 1: kind of sucked up, but you're probably imagining something a

661
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:52,959
Speaker 1: lot less violent than the reality. Right, Like a pinch

662
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:56,160
Speaker 1: we don't consider to be serious violence. I wouldn't, but

663
00:35:56,400 --> 00:36:00,160
Speaker 1: now I'm nervous. Yeah, yeah, you should be. So. The

664
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,920
Speaker 1: very first report on abuse within the Behavior Research Institute

665
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,600
Speaker 1: came out in nineteen seventy three as the result of

666
00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 1: a an investigation by the Massachusetts Human Rights Committee. They

667
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:14,560
Speaker 1: produced a report on conditions in Israel school that pointed

668
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 1: out that matt advocated pinching kids and squirting water in

669
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:21,320
Speaker 1: their faces. Teachers were under strict pressure to end bizarre

670
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:25,279
Speaker 1: behavior in their students, and under two weeks, they could

671
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:27,840
Speaker 1: lose their job if they did not eliminate a behavior

672
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:32,240
Speaker 1: by deadline, and so as deadlines approached, teachers started quote

673
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 1: pinching harder and harder to meet their goal. Workers at

674
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:38,480
Speaker 1: b r I told one Human Rights Committee member they

675
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:42,240
Speaker 1: felt that quote they were turning into monsters. In nineteen

676
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 1: seventy nine allegation of abuse in Israel's facility provides more

677
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:51,200
Speaker 1: graphic context. Quote on October night, according to court documents

678
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 1: CORWINSA and Corwin's. The person making the complaints says she

679
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:57,120
Speaker 1: saw Israel fingernail pinching the bottoms of twelve year old

680
00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:01,359
Speaker 1: Christopher Hirsch's feet. Israel was administering a behavioral reversal lesson

681
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:03,600
Speaker 1: to get Hirsh to stop defecating on rugs and in

682
00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:06,279
Speaker 1: the shower. Corwyn said she heard the boy cry and

683
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:09,080
Speaker 1: scream in pain. The next morning at br I, worker

684
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 1: named Nancy Tibo got sick to her stomach when she

685
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:14,120
Speaker 1: saw her his feet. There were open blisters and a

686
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:18,320
Speaker 1: reddish substance using from them. She testified employees continued to

687
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 1: pinch the boy's feet. Corwin returned to work after two

688
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 1: days off. She was horrified at what she found. The

689
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:26,440
Speaker 1: insteps of both Christopher's feet had a considerable amount of

690
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:29,759
Speaker 1: blisters and a considerable amount of open bloody patches where

691
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:34,040
Speaker 1: the skin had been entirely removed. She said, fucking girl,

692
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:37,319
Speaker 1: So this is not like a pinch your mom would

693
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 1: give you where something when she got like ticked at you.

694
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:42,759
Speaker 1: Like these are caused like bleeding wounds, like trying to

695
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:45,120
Speaker 1: rip the skin off almost and a lot of it

696
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:47,120
Speaker 1: is because they're doing this over and over again, sometimes

697
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:49,279
Speaker 1: dozens of times, because right, that's what you you want

698
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 1: to have consistently be reinforcing. I guess that that whatever

699
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:56,480
Speaker 1: they did was bad. And again, when he talks about this,

700
00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:58,359
Speaker 1: Israel is always like, well, we're trying to stop self

701
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 1: injurious behavior. And I think people think about that like

702
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:04,920
Speaker 1: kind of some of the stuff I saw, if that

703
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 1: was if that's literally how it was being used, it

704
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:08,840
Speaker 1: was like, look, we're just trying to stop them for

705
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 1: potentially killing themselves. I guess I would say, well, I

706
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:15,480
Speaker 1: don't know, but he's also defining self injurious behaviors like

707
00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:18,719
Speaker 1: pooping on the ground, which I don't is not going

708
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:21,480
Speaker 1: to kill them. It's it's not good, like you should

709
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:24,800
Speaker 1: not poop on the ground, but that's not a danger

710
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 1: to the child's life. Um. And again I'm not saying

711
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:30,480
Speaker 1: it would be justified to pinch bloody sores in them

712
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 1: if they were slamming their head into something. But that's

713
00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:34,399
Speaker 1: how he tries to frame it, is that like, yeah,

714
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:36,760
Speaker 1: I know this is horrible, but we're trying to stop

715
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 1: them from permanently injuring or killing themselves. And it's just

716
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:42,440
Speaker 1: such a serious situation. The reality is that they're doing

717
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 1: this for any kind of behavior they consider unpleasant. Um

718
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:48,440
Speaker 1: and by trying to fix this problem, they're making dozens

719
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:53,040
Speaker 1: more yes, yes, significant issues now. The entire time b

720
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 1: r I grew and expanded across the East Coast and

721
00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:58,360
Speaker 1: over to the West Coast, there were constant investigations and

722
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:02,239
Speaker 1: allegations of misconduct from the beginning. What is happening in

723
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:04,920
Speaker 1: these schools is marked out as fucked up and problematic.

724
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:07,880
Speaker 1: That nineteen seventy three report by the Human Rights Committee

725
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 1: ended with deep concern over the impact of such aggressive

726
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 1: behavior modification techniques could have on an individual. Quote. This

727
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:17,920
Speaker 1: is especially true when the individuals are severely handicapped children

728
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:20,400
Speaker 1: who may not comprehend the reasons for being subjected to

729
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:25,400
Speaker 1: such intense systematic procedures without specific criteria for determining deviant behaviors,

730
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:28,920
Speaker 1: an individual with behaviors of questionable deviancy might be subjected

731
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:32,160
Speaker 1: to a therapy program of excessive intensity merely because his

732
00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:34,680
Speaker 1: parent or teacher had a low tolerance for the particular

733
00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:37,719
Speaker 1: behavior exhibited. So they're saying what I'm saying, which is

734
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 1: that like, well, you say, this is only for the

735
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 1: most severe cases but the severity of a bad behavior

736
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 1: is determined by the person doing violence to the child,

737
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 1: and sometimes it's just because they don't like a kid

738
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 1: making noise. Um. Again, I'm not saying that any of

739
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:53,600
Speaker 1: this would be justified if it was only being used

740
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:56,320
Speaker 1: on kids with severe behaviors, but it's being used on

741
00:39:56,640 --> 00:40:00,399
Speaker 1: for anything that that the staff find unpleasant. The fight

742
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 1: is yeah, exactly. The head of value evaluator on that

743
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 1: report was a guy named Nazareth, and he later told

744
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:10,480
Speaker 1: an interviewer that the students he saw at Israel school

745
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:14,759
Speaker 1: had been turned into robots. Quote. He controls everything. He's

746
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:17,920
Speaker 1: an egomaniac. It's either his way or no way. I'm

747
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:22,279
Speaker 1: absolutely amazed he's still in business now. The article in

748
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:25,320
Speaker 1: which Nazareth gaves Nazareth gave this quote was published in

749
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty five, and Nazareth was amazed because between nineteen

750
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:31,040
Speaker 1: seventy three, when the reports of abuse at his fastility

751
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:33,719
Speaker 1: started in nineteen eighty five, a ton of people in

752
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:36,600
Speaker 1: multiple states had tried to shut Matt Israel the held

753
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:40,720
Speaker 1: down and they all failed. From the Boston Phoenix quote

754
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 1: in April nineteen seventy six, is Reel expanded his program

755
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:47,040
Speaker 1: by founding a parallel reward and punishment school home for

756
00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:50,719
Speaker 1: six children in Van Nuys, California. The National Society for

757
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 1: Autistic Children and s a C, now known as the

758
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:56,480
Speaker 1: National Society for Children and Adults with Autism, the country's

759
00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:59,000
Speaker 1: leading advocacy group for those with autism, took a long,

760
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:02,920
Speaker 1: hard look at his reel expansion. On December ninety six,

761
00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:06,040
Speaker 1: Israel was officially bounced from n s a C founding

762
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:09,400
Speaker 1: following allegations that he was practicing as a clinical psychologist

763
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:12,239
Speaker 1: directing both day and residential programs in the state of

764
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 1: California without obtaining a professional license. Israel denies the charge.

765
00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:19,960
Speaker 1: Denies the charge charge that pain infliction and other physically

766
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:22,680
Speaker 1: coercive techniques are now employed when it is not necessary

767
00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:25,400
Speaker 1: to do so. Israel was chiden for his apparent lack

768
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:28,800
Speaker 1: of respect for rules and regulations. There is unsatisfactory evidence

769
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:31,080
Speaker 1: that you are reputable and responsible in relation to the

770
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:33,480
Speaker 1: operation of a licensed facility, and or that you have

771
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:37,399
Speaker 1: the ability to comply with applicable regulations, The department wrote, First,

772
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:39,520
Speaker 1: you have shown a disregard for the law by operating

773
00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:42,280
Speaker 1: your program without first obtaining a license from this Department

774
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:45,560
Speaker 1: to do so. Also, you are apparently engaged unlawfully in

775
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:49,759
Speaker 1: the practice of psychology without securing a California license. So

776
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:53,280
Speaker 1: his work in California get shut the hell down because

777
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:55,800
Speaker 1: he's abusing kids and he doesn't even have a license

778
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:59,520
Speaker 1: to be the first Wild Days was able to open

779
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:02,720
Speaker 1: it up in the place. Yeah, it kind of seems

780
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 1: like someone should have caught that before. Yeah. Yeah. Israel

781
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:09,479
Speaker 1: was ordered to cease and desist operation or face legal

782
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:12,439
Speaker 1: action that would close down his school. The day after

783
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:15,320
Speaker 1: the scheduled shut down, according to published reports, the students

784
00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:17,680
Speaker 1: parents proclaimed that they had taken over the facility and

785
00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:19,920
Speaker 1: we're running it as a co op. The school, which

786
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:21,600
Speaker 1: had started as a branch of the b r I

787
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:24,759
Speaker 1: and Providence, severed ties with the parent institute and formed

788
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:28,240
Speaker 1: its own corporation, b r I of California. Matt Israel

789
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:30,640
Speaker 1: went from the guy in charge to just a consultant.

790
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:33,440
Speaker 1: The new school applied for a license, and the move

791
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:36,279
Speaker 1: was helped by California Governor Pat Brown, whose law firm

792
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:39,600
Speaker 1: represented b r I of California. The institute got its

793
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:42,160
Speaker 1: group home license, and it received the only permit ever

794
00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:47,479
Speaker 1: granted by California to use aversives physical aversives. So he's told,

795
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:49,920
Speaker 1: you can't be teaching here because you're abusing kids and

796
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:53,600
Speaker 1: you have no license. And so immediately the school says, oh,

797
00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:56,120
Speaker 1: now we're a parent co op and Matt has nothing

798
00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:58,960
Speaker 1: to do with this school. But also we're going to

799
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:01,359
Speaker 1: use our connection to the governor of California to get

800
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:03,080
Speaker 1: a license to use all of the techniques that he

801
00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:06,240
Speaker 1: got in trouble for using. But hey, he's not around anymore.

802
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:11,400
Speaker 1: Don't worry about it, spoilers, he's still there. They just

803
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:15,560
Speaker 1: start claiming that now he has nothing to do with it. Yeah, so,

804
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:19,279
Speaker 1: and this is versions of this are going to happen

805
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:21,960
Speaker 1: again in the future. Um it would come to it

806
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:24,560
Speaker 1: would become something of a pattern for Israel. In nine,

807
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:27,520
Speaker 1: the state or the City of New York balked at

808
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:30,680
Speaker 1: Matt Israel's request to increase per people tuition from thirty

809
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:33,360
Speaker 1: one thousand, six hundred dollars to thirty eight thousand dollars.

810
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:36,240
Speaker 1: The state investigated, and, according to The New York Times,

811
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:38,480
Speaker 1: found b r I was in violation of New York

812
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:41,920
Speaker 1: state law. They ordered Israel to stop using physical aversives

813
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:45,360
Speaker 1: on New York State students. In his Providence facility. Instead,

814
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:48,080
Speaker 1: Israel threatened to kick them out. This prompted a group

815
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:50,120
Speaker 1: of New York City parents to sue the state and

816
00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:53,960
Speaker 1: federal court and keep their kids at b r I. Yeah,

817
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:56,960
Speaker 1: the parents one. We'll talk more about the parents throughout

818
00:43:57,000 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 1: this episode, but it's important to note right here that

819
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:02,200
Speaker 1: from day one he has enjoyed tremendous support from a

820
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:05,120
Speaker 1: lot of parents who have kids in his facilities. Others

821
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 1: have sued him. Obviously it's not universal, but a lot

822
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:10,480
Speaker 1: of them will sing this guy's praises to the heavens.

823
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:13,440
Speaker 1: This is partly because b r i s number one

824
00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:15,920
Speaker 1: rule is that they will turn no child down, no

825
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:19,719
Speaker 1: matter how severe or violent their behavior. So again, if

826
00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:22,120
Speaker 1: there's a kid that you know you can't deal with

827
00:44:22,239 --> 00:44:24,960
Speaker 1: as a parent, I can't. I'm not capable of handling

828
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:28,000
Speaker 1: my child's behavior. If you're a teacher and you know,

829
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:30,880
Speaker 1: like we are, school can't handle his kid's behavior, you

830
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:34,960
Speaker 1: know br I will take them. And that's a big

831
00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 1: part of the support that he gets is because a

832
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:39,880
Speaker 1: lot of these parents and that these these schools are

833
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:42,800
Speaker 1: just overwhelmed with dealing with these kids, and b r

834
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:45,359
Speaker 1: I as a lifeline. So they they're afraid that if

835
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:47,520
Speaker 1: the school shuts down, they're going to have to take

836
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 1: care of these kids again, or to be fair, some

837
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:51,799
Speaker 1: of them are concerned, well, if the school shuts down,

838
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:53,680
Speaker 1: the only place for my kid is a mental institution

839
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:55,479
Speaker 1: where they're going to be doped up twenty four hours

840
00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:59,400
Speaker 1: a day. You know. So that's that's understandable in a sense,

841
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:04,200
Speaker 1: like it's like sometimes you just aren't capable of handling it.

842
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:12,240
Speaker 1: But yeah, it's there. Yeah it's again. Israel is pretty

843
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:14,759
Speaker 1: clearly the bad guy here, and I thinks of making

844
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:18,360
Speaker 1: questionable calls, but they're not they're not villains. They're not

845
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:20,839
Speaker 1: doing this to be cruel. I'm sure some of them

846
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:22,560
Speaker 1: are shitty parents, but a lot of them are just like,

847
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:25,080
Speaker 1: I have no idea how to handle this kid, and

848
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:28,359
Speaker 1: obviously there's not resources for me. You know. It's it's

849
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:30,279
Speaker 1: the wild West in a lot of this period in

850
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:33,000
Speaker 1: terms of like any kind of of treatment for particularly

851
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:38,040
Speaker 1: kids with much more severe behaviors. Um and uh. I

852
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:40,480
Speaker 1: get the desperation, even though I think it leads them

853
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:43,360
Speaker 1: in the wrong direction. It's not unreasonable, but they're desperate.

854
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:49,320
Speaker 1: But you know who's not desperate The products and services

855
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:53,719
Speaker 1: that sponsored podcast. That's right there. They are content in

856
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:58,160
Speaker 1: the knowledge that that that you'll love them, um, you

857
00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:09,680
Speaker 1: will spend the money. Definitely. We're back. In January of

858
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:11,920
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy nine, the State of New York sent a

859
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:13,879
Speaker 1: follow up team to b r I for a three

860
00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:17,640
Speaker 1: day unannounced evaluation visit and the report was remarkable. Quote

861
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:20,080
Speaker 1: the January team found b r I to be a

862
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:24,800
Speaker 1: professionally conceived, well documented, and rigidly implemented behavior modification program.

863
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:27,480
Speaker 1: It's effect on the students was the singular most depressing

864
00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:30,440
Speaker 1: experience that team members have had in numerous visitations to

865
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:34,080
Speaker 1: human service programs. So they're both are this is a

866
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:38,680
Speaker 1: very professional, well documented they're very consistent. None of this

867
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:41,800
Speaker 1: is like slapdash er haphazard, and it's the most depressing

868
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:46,480
Speaker 1: thing we've ever seen. And that's saying something. That's saying something.

869
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:50,879
Speaker 1: The report listed the behavioral modification programs that a number

870
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:53,720
Speaker 1: of students were under. One kid's program was as follows.

871
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:58,400
Speaker 1: Biting self fifteen minutes, helmet, no vision, white noise, handplay,

872
00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:02,680
Speaker 1: spank but noses, pinch but out of seat, spank but

873
00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:07,560
Speaker 1: biting others, cool shower five pinches foot, hands to head, muscle, squeeze,

874
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:13,879
Speaker 1: shoulder clapping, say no rocking, water squirt. These are yeah,

875
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:18,920
Speaker 1: that's that's a list. It is And it's again, as

876
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:20,719
Speaker 1: someone who did this and was I think bad at

877
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:24,799
Speaker 1: teaching special LEAD, I can't imagine punishing most of these.

878
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:26,600
Speaker 1: But like like a lot of kids will do like

879
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:30,080
Speaker 1: you know, they call it hand play. You know, they'll

880
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:32,040
Speaker 1: do like they'll flap or something, they'll make motions with

881
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:34,759
Speaker 1: their hands specifically, Like we never punished that. It's just

882
00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:37,040
Speaker 1: the thing that like, well, okay whatever, who cares like

883
00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:40,759
Speaker 1: it's not hurting them or anybody else. Yeah, I know

884
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:45,280
Speaker 1: in my experience it was definitely one of those things

885
00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:50,920
Speaker 1: were they never I did get the time outs and

886
00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:54,880
Speaker 1: obviously like some punishers by being ground and whatnot. But

887
00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:58,479
Speaker 1: then there'll be things where because I do digital ot

888
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:02,279
Speaker 1: and do the hand wave thing just like focus and yeah,

889
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:06,200
Speaker 1: it's weird how people who at least we're trying to

890
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:09,120
Speaker 1: work in special ED were less reactive to it than

891
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 1: people who aren't. It just seems like, yeah, it's like

892
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:16,480
Speaker 1: you've got to have kind of a right mindset with

893
00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:18,480
Speaker 1: the only that because it's not harmful, it's just no

894
00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:22,200
Speaker 1: and to focus. It may look weird, but yeah, it's

895
00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:24,480
Speaker 1: not hurting them or anyone else as opposed to like,

896
00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:26,279
Speaker 1: there are some behaviors on this that would need to

897
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 1: be dealt with, Like if a kid is biting themselves,

898
00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:31,600
Speaker 1: you know you want to stop that somehow, right, but like, yeah,

899
00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:34,319
Speaker 1: you gotta stop that. But I'm not convinced a white

900
00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:36,640
Speaker 1: noise helmet is necessarily the right way to deal with it.

901
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:39,440
Speaker 1: That said, we had a couple of kids who did

902
00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:41,600
Speaker 1: bite themselves and I never we never figured out a

903
00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:45,239
Speaker 1: good way to stop the behavior either. Um So I

904
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:47,880
Speaker 1: don't know, like, but it does seem like a lot

905
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:50,840
Speaker 1: of the things that they are dealing punishing with aversives

906
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:54,239
Speaker 1: are not bad for the kids. They're not really problems

907
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:58,520
Speaker 1: other than that the parents or the staff don't like

908
00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:01,440
Speaker 1: the behavior. You know, they're rocking, they're clapping, they're waving

909
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:04,960
Speaker 1: their hands. That's not bad for them. It's just that

910
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:08,120
Speaker 1: it annoys the staff, and so the staff punish it

911
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:11,320
Speaker 1: with punching or with pinching and with with banking and stuff.

912
00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:16,080
Speaker 1: And I find that pretty disturbing. Um And I should

913
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:18,200
Speaker 1: note that the white noise helmet they're putting on these kids,

914
00:49:18,239 --> 00:49:20,800
Speaker 1: is described elsewhere is basically being a football helmet with

915
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:24,040
Speaker 1: an opaque screen that blocks vision while white noise fills

916
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:26,920
Speaker 1: the person's ears. Now, the squirting that they'll do the

917
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:30,600
Speaker 1: water bottles was generally water mixed with compressed air, but

918
00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:33,839
Speaker 1: some students would also have ammonius sprayed near their nose

919
00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:38,080
Speaker 1: every fifteen minutes as an aversive, which is real pretty

920
00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:43,279
Speaker 1: fucked up, like about the water, but yeah, ammonius definitely worse.

921
00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:48,400
Speaker 1: Um and well, a lot of these aversives were administered

922
00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:51,200
Speaker 1: as punishments, and the traditional sense that was not always

923
00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:52,920
Speaker 1: the case. And to explain what I mean by that,

924
00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:55,759
Speaker 1: I'm going to quote again from the Boston Phoenix. One

925
00:49:55,800 --> 00:49:58,120
Speaker 1: of the most bizarre measures they saw was an Israel

926
00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:02,160
Speaker 1: technique dubbed behavioral rever so lessons. Israel believes that for

927
00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:05,440
Speaker 1: his treatment to work, particular behavior must occur often enough

928
00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:09,040
Speaker 1: for the people to get consequated, that is, rewarded or punished.

929
00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:13,000
Speaker 1: When targeted inappropriate behavior comes at a low frequency, Israel

930
00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:15,080
Speaker 1: believes it makes it more difficult for the student to

931
00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:18,279
Speaker 1: grasp the connection between the behavior and the consequence. At

932
00:50:18,360 --> 00:50:21,160
Speaker 1: b r I, Israel has solved his problem by having

933
00:50:21,239 --> 00:50:25,240
Speaker 1: the staff encourage the beginning stages of bad behavior. Kathy,

934
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:28,600
Speaker 1: one of the New York residents, was stealing food and drink.

935
00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:30,919
Speaker 1: To get her to stop, the br I staff first

936
00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:33,680
Speaker 1: urged her to steal so they could punish her. The

937
00:50:33,760 --> 00:50:36,840
Speaker 1: New York team found these instructions taped to her classroom table.

938
00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:40,440
Speaker 1: Kathy is to receive one stealing opportunity per hour. She

939
00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:42,600
Speaker 1: should be prompted to steal the juice squarter, and a

940
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:45,720
Speaker 1: spank is to be administered. If Kathy does actually steal

941
00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:47,759
Speaker 1: the juice, she is to receive the helmet and white

942
00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:54,279
Speaker 1: noise for fifteen minutes. So the point, that's pretty bad, right, Yeah,

943
00:50:55,440 --> 00:51:00,160
Speaker 1: I'm not like that's real abusive, like forcing kids to

944
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:02,560
Speaker 1: engage in bad behavior, or pushing them at least to

945
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:04,919
Speaker 1: engage in bad behavior so you can punish them often

946
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:07,600
Speaker 1: enough to stop the behavior. This seems kind of unhinged.

947
00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:10,600
Speaker 1: Um in the State of New York agreed. They called

948
00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:15,920
Speaker 1: consequating entrapment, which feels fair to me. Yeah. The evaluation

949
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:19,120
Speaker 1: team summarize their feelings LESLIE rather than being a program

950
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:22,160
Speaker 1: of neglect which harms children by not assisting them at growth,

951
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:25,600
Speaker 1: the b r I program utilizes a current professional ideology

952
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:28,560
Speaker 1: to deny children the opportunity to grow, to deny them

953
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:32,440
Speaker 1: any choices, to deny them normal experiences in leisure time, pursuits,

954
00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:35,400
Speaker 1: to deny them any opportunities for fun, to deny them

955
00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:38,040
Speaker 1: the opportunity to demonstrate anything other than a few pre

956
00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:43,480
Speaker 1: selected responses. So you're not letting these kids evolve naturally

957
00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:46,960
Speaker 1: as human beings. You're even forcing them to do bad

958
00:51:47,040 --> 00:51:49,680
Speaker 1: behavior so you can punishment if you see like occasional

959
00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:52,440
Speaker 1: bad behavior, you're forcing it to become constant, so you

960
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:55,480
Speaker 1: can punish. You are you're denying them the right to

961
00:51:55,600 --> 00:51:58,480
Speaker 1: grow the way a person grows. Yeah, and so it

962
00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:00,600
Speaker 1: could be like, hey, I don't like the kid, I

963
00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:03,960
Speaker 1: can just make them to this or plant something on them,

964
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:06,000
Speaker 1: and then I can punish them, and then I can

965
00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:08,440
Speaker 1: punish them. Yeah, you get the feeling that did happen

966
00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:13,520
Speaker 1: christ you know it's again Unford, you know, Yeah, it's

967
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:17,320
Speaker 1: messed up. So the state restricted bris use of physical

968
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:20,719
Speaker 1: punishments on New York students. That's the result of this investigation.

969
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:23,000
Speaker 1: But they and they made an agreement with bri I

970
00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:26,439
Speaker 1: that physical aversives would only be used in situations where

971
00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:29,720
Speaker 1: a child posed serious physical danger to himself or others,

972
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:33,480
Speaker 1: and only after less violent diversives had already failed. Well,

973
00:52:33,520 --> 00:52:35,600
Speaker 1: all this was going on, Well, this whole set of

974
00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:39,560
Speaker 1: investigations and is going on. A Los Angeles based placement agency,

975
00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:42,760
Speaker 1: which like Places Kids and Facilities, voted to halt funding

976
00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:45,239
Speaker 1: to b r I after a review of their operation

977
00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:48,920
Speaker 1: found serious injury had been caused by the program's aversive therapies.

978
00:52:49,360 --> 00:52:52,200
Speaker 1: Parents again fought to block the move, saying their children

979
00:52:52,239 --> 00:52:54,640
Speaker 1: would be sent to state hospitals where they'd be drugged,

980
00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:58,600
Speaker 1: put in solitary confinement, and worst of all, given electric shocks.

981
00:52:59,160 --> 00:53:02,640
Speaker 1: Keep that in mind. The parents won again. California Governor

982
00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:04,439
Speaker 1: Pat Brown was said to him been a major reason

983
00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:08,759
Speaker 1: for this. The whole breujaha was sparked in large part

984
00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:11,279
Speaker 1: by the Corwin allegations, which I quoted from above. That's

985
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:13,640
Speaker 1: the kid whose feet were pinched until he had bleeding blisters.

986
00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:17,040
Speaker 1: In nineteen seventy nine, Matt Israel published a rebuttal to

987
00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:19,799
Speaker 1: those allegations, wherein he claimed that he didn't see any

988
00:53:19,880 --> 00:53:22,640
Speaker 1: broken skin on the child he'd pinched, just a tiny

989
00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:26,480
Speaker 1: blood blister that cleaned up after a few days. Quote meantime,

990
00:53:26,680 --> 00:53:30,040
Speaker 1: Christopher Hirsch is alive, well, happy, healthy, behaving better than ever,

991
00:53:30,120 --> 00:53:32,840
Speaker 1: and with not a single serious or semi serious injury

992
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:35,800
Speaker 1: from any treatment procedure administered by me or the staff

993
00:53:35,840 --> 00:53:39,840
Speaker 1: of b r I California. Shortly after that rebuttal was published,

994
00:53:39,880 --> 00:53:42,160
Speaker 1: Christopher's father took his son to a doctor to have

995
00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:45,239
Speaker 1: him evaluated. The boy was so panicked that it took

996
00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:47,239
Speaker 1: three adults to hold him down while they tried to

997
00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:50,600
Speaker 1: examine his feet. One observer at the time recalled, there

998
00:53:50,719 --> 00:53:53,000
Speaker 1: was no part of the skinny boy's body that didn't

999
00:53:53,040 --> 00:53:55,480
Speaker 1: have a bruise. Then they took off his shoes. It

1000
00:53:55,680 --> 00:53:58,960
Speaker 1: was horrible. Christopher's father claims the insteps of his son's

1001
00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:01,680
Speaker 1: feet were filled with oles the rough size and circumference

1002
00:54:01,719 --> 00:54:04,400
Speaker 1: of a cigarette burn. B r I had been granted

1003
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:07,600
Speaker 1: special state permission to do pinching procedures, but the state

1004
00:54:07,719 --> 00:54:09,960
Speaker 1: argued that the specific kinds of pinching that had been

1005
00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:12,240
Speaker 1: done to this kid was not allowed, and they actually

1006
00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:14,279
Speaker 1: had like legal definitions of the type of pinching you

1007
00:54:14,360 --> 00:54:16,960
Speaker 1: were allowed to do, which is weird to me, but

1008
00:54:18,520 --> 00:54:20,360
Speaker 1: even within the kind of fucked up standards of what

1009
00:54:20,480 --> 00:54:22,719
Speaker 1: you could do to a kid. At the time, b

1010
00:54:22,960 --> 00:54:27,120
Speaker 1: r I is crossing lines. There were other victims in Massachusetts.

1011
00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:29,759
Speaker 1: In nineteen seventy eight, Michael Cutler was admitted to the

1012
00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:32,600
Speaker 1: e r after being abused at the Providence facility. To

1013
00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:35,040
Speaker 1: stop him from running away, the staff had handcuffed him

1014
00:54:35,040 --> 00:54:37,880
Speaker 1: to a chair. He was hospitalized with blood poisoning in

1015
00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:40,840
Speaker 1: his arm. His mother claims when she saw him that quote,

1016
00:54:40,960 --> 00:54:43,680
Speaker 1: Michael looked like Auschwitz and was covered with black and

1017
00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:46,600
Speaker 1: blue bruises on his thighs and lacerations on his body.

1018
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:49,360
Speaker 1: The only advers since she had approved for the school

1019
00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:52,600
Speaker 1: to give her son was a cold shower. In nineteen eighty,

1020
00:54:52,719 --> 00:54:55,759
Speaker 1: the school had its first death, Robert Cooper Jr. A

1021
00:54:55,800 --> 00:54:58,160
Speaker 1: twenty five year old autistic student at b r I

1022
00:54:58,280 --> 00:55:01,360
Speaker 1: who was taken to Rhode Island Hospital after he started vomiting.

1023
00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:05,160
Speaker 1: He died at the hospital of a hymorrhagic bowel infarct,

1024
00:55:05,440 --> 00:55:08,480
Speaker 1: and a medical examiner's investigation found no negligence on the

1025
00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:10,759
Speaker 1: part of b r I, but noted that they had

1026
00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:14,120
Speaker 1: not followed proper emergency procedures in taking him to the hospital.

1027
00:55:14,600 --> 00:55:18,680
Speaker 1: Robert's parents defended the school quote it was difficult for

1028
00:55:18,719 --> 00:55:20,800
Speaker 1: myself or my wife to allow Bobby to be pinched

1029
00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:24,000
Speaker 1: or spanked. But there were no alternatives. Every other alternative

1030
00:55:24,080 --> 00:55:26,640
Speaker 1: was no alternative. In a state institution, he would have

1031
00:55:26,719 --> 00:55:32,720
Speaker 1: become a vegetable. On June seventeenth, another student died, Donnie Aswad.

1032
00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:35,480
Speaker 1: He was restrained in bed by a contraption that kept

1033
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:38,239
Speaker 1: him flat on his stomach. He died somewhere between nine

1034
00:55:38,280 --> 00:55:41,359
Speaker 1: and ten am while restrained. The coroner ruled his death

1035
00:55:41,480 --> 00:55:45,840
Speaker 1: was also was caused by mental retardation and cerebral malformation,

1036
00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:50,359
Speaker 1: which is pretty fucked up. And I think the first

1037
00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:52,399
Speaker 1: one it made, that first death may have had nothing

1038
00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:54,640
Speaker 1: to do with the school, right, the kid had boweled disorders.

1039
00:55:55,120 --> 00:55:59,439
Speaker 1: They were just irresponsible and not getting him to the hospital. Yeah, yeah,

1040
00:55:59,560 --> 00:56:01,960
Speaker 1: but but that they may not have caused it. I

1041
00:56:02,160 --> 00:56:04,800
Speaker 1: think the coroners wrong on this one because we know

1042
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:07,080
Speaker 1: that restraining people in this way, this is why a

1043
00:56:07,160 --> 00:56:09,239
Speaker 1: lot of cops have killed people this way, right, And

1044
00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:10,880
Speaker 1: the fact that he's like, oh no, it was he

1045
00:56:11,120 --> 00:56:14,000
Speaker 1: he died of mental retardation, not being restrained on his

1046
00:56:14,160 --> 00:56:17,880
Speaker 1: belly um for a long period of time. Yeah, seems

1047
00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:21,560
Speaker 1: pretty messed up to me. Um. The State of California

1048
00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:23,800
Speaker 1: decided there was enough doubt as a result of this

1049
00:56:23,920 --> 00:56:25,920
Speaker 1: case to put the school on a two year probation.

1050
00:56:25,960 --> 00:56:27,800
Speaker 1: So even though the corner says this isn't their fault,

1051
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:30,960
Speaker 1: California evaluators are like kind of seems like this is

1052
00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:35,920
Speaker 1: their fault. From Wired quote in, the States Department of

1053
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:39,200
Speaker 1: Social Services filed a sixty three page legal complaint alleging

1054
00:56:39,239 --> 00:56:41,960
Speaker 1: abuse at the school. The complaint claimed, among other things,

1055
00:56:42,040 --> 00:56:44,440
Speaker 1: that b r I withheld meals, showed staff how to

1056
00:56:44,520 --> 00:56:49,040
Speaker 1: hide students injuries from regulatory agencies, and strangely encouraged students

1057
00:56:49,120 --> 00:56:51,400
Speaker 1: to act out for a film crew, the footage to

1058
00:56:51,440 --> 00:56:53,720
Speaker 1: be used later to just to demonstrate how the children

1059
00:56:53,760 --> 00:56:56,320
Speaker 1: had behaved before b r I. Later that year, the

1060
00:56:56,360 --> 00:56:59,040
Speaker 1: state reached a settlement with b r I in California

1061
00:56:59,320 --> 00:57:02,120
Speaker 1: the school could use anything more punishing than a water spray.

1062
00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:05,160
Speaker 1: The state also forbade Israel, who says he'd turned over

1063
00:57:05,239 --> 00:57:08,040
Speaker 1: control of the campus before US wants death from stepping

1064
00:57:08,080 --> 00:57:11,239
Speaker 1: foot on the north Ridge property. So again he would

1065
00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:13,920
Speaker 1: he'd already been kicked out of the school, But California

1066
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:16,320
Speaker 1: I don't think they had evidence, hard evidence that he'd

1067
00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:19,040
Speaker 1: been working there, but they suspected it enough to legally

1068
00:57:19,080 --> 00:57:24,400
Speaker 1: forbid him from entering the property. In nine, Vincent Militek died.

1069
00:57:24,920 --> 00:57:27,800
Speaker 1: As like Vincent, was a b r I student, he'd

1070
00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:30,240
Speaker 1: been acting out at the residential home in Sea Conk

1071
00:57:30,360 --> 00:57:32,680
Speaker 1: and was restrained in a chair, His hands and feet

1072
00:57:32,720 --> 00:57:35,560
Speaker 1: were put in plastic cuffs, his face was masked and

1073
00:57:35,720 --> 00:57:38,919
Speaker 1: helmeted with a white noise machine, and he suffocated to death.

1074
00:57:40,240 --> 00:57:43,040
Speaker 1: Yeah that's pretty bad, um, But of course b r

1075
00:57:43,120 --> 00:57:45,040
Speaker 1: I was found again not to have caused the death.

1076
00:57:45,400 --> 00:57:47,160
Speaker 1: And you get the feeling that a lot of corners

1077
00:57:47,200 --> 00:57:49,160
Speaker 1: are just saying, like, well, if if a kid who's

1078
00:57:49,160 --> 00:57:53,480
Speaker 1: got some sort of mental disability dies in any way,

1079
00:57:53,560 --> 00:57:57,960
Speaker 1: it's the refault of that disability that they it's it's

1080
00:57:58,240 --> 00:58:01,920
Speaker 1: it's depressingly seems like it happened eventually type of deals.

1081
00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:06,440
Speaker 1: What they're going at. Yeah, um, And a district court judge, though,

1082
00:58:06,480 --> 00:58:09,640
Speaker 1: did find that the school had been negligent in approving

1083
00:58:09,680 --> 00:58:13,280
Speaker 1: the therapy for him, as they hadn't been Basically, it

1084
00:58:13,480 --> 00:58:16,320
Speaker 1: isn't their fault that he suffocated while they had put

1085
00:58:16,440 --> 00:58:18,560
Speaker 1: him in all this stuff, but it wasn't they should

1086
00:58:18,600 --> 00:58:20,960
Speaker 1: have monitored him more to make sure he didn't suffocate,

1087
00:58:21,040 --> 00:58:23,520
Speaker 1: which again seems like it was their fault, but whatever,

1088
00:58:23,600 --> 00:58:26,080
Speaker 1: I'm not a fucking judge. Later that and I guess

1089
00:58:26,120 --> 00:58:28,080
Speaker 1: we should give the judge credit because the coroner was

1090
00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:30,400
Speaker 1: willing to let them off entirely, and the judge does

1091
00:58:30,480 --> 00:58:32,240
Speaker 1: call them negligent, So I don't know. I guess that's

1092
00:58:32,240 --> 00:58:35,120
Speaker 1: your best fucking case scenario. You're only going to get

1093
00:58:35,160 --> 00:58:38,439
Speaker 1: a half one at this point. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Later

1094
00:58:38,560 --> 00:58:41,440
Speaker 1: that year, the Massachusetts Office of Children carried out an

1095
00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:43,960
Speaker 1: inspection of br I that ended with an order to

1096
00:58:44,080 --> 00:58:47,200
Speaker 1: close the school. The school appealed and counter suit, and

1097
00:58:47,240 --> 00:58:49,880
Speaker 1: a judge suggested that they compromised by ending the use

1098
00:58:49,920 --> 00:58:53,720
Speaker 1: of aversives. Matt Israel. Matt Israel complained that if aversans

1099
00:58:53,760 --> 00:58:56,919
Speaker 1: were ended or Matt Israel complained because and and said

1100
00:58:56,920 --> 00:58:59,480
Speaker 1: basically that like, okay, we ended all of our aversive

1101
00:58:59,640 --> 00:59:03,000
Speaker 1: train and my students all regressed and started carrying out

1102
00:59:03,040 --> 00:59:05,360
Speaker 1: the behavior again. He took this as proof that his

1103
00:59:05,400 --> 00:59:08,200
Speaker 1: aversive therapy worked. Right as soon as we stopped it,

1104
00:59:08,280 --> 00:59:11,960
Speaker 1: they all regressed and got worse. New York State investigators, though,

1105
00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:14,680
Speaker 1: said this is actually evidence that aversives don't work. The

1106
00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:17,040
Speaker 1: kids were not being treated in any way. They were

1107
00:59:17,080 --> 00:59:20,040
Speaker 1: being controlled by the threat of punishment, and quote, when

1108
00:59:20,120 --> 00:59:25,600
Speaker 1: that threat is removed, they revert to their original behaviors. Yeah. Yeah,

1109
00:59:26,480 --> 00:59:31,200
Speaker 1: they're basically being able to be unfucked with the mental

1110
00:59:31,680 --> 00:59:35,240
Speaker 1: torture they have been doing. Yeah. Yeah, And it's it's

1111
00:59:35,320 --> 00:59:40,000
Speaker 1: he's not treating them in any way. He's not he's

1112
00:59:40,040 --> 00:59:45,120
Speaker 1: not ending the behavior. He's just he's there. They're stopping

1113
00:59:45,160 --> 00:59:49,640
Speaker 1: the behavior temporarily because they're being tortured. Um. And it's uh,

1114
00:59:49,920 --> 00:59:54,280
Speaker 1: it's that's that's the core of what's happening here because

1115
00:59:54,760 --> 00:59:57,000
Speaker 1: to a lot of people, it does work in the

1116
00:59:57,080 --> 00:59:58,760
Speaker 1: short term. And that You've got a kid who keeps

1117
00:59:58,800 --> 01:00:02,440
Speaker 1: hitting himself, right you, Um, you punish him with like

1118
01:00:02,800 --> 01:00:04,880
Speaker 1: some form of like you're pinching him, or you're you're

1119
01:00:04,880 --> 01:00:07,280
Speaker 1: spanking him, or you're putting him in his helmet spraying

1120
01:00:07,320 --> 01:00:09,960
Speaker 1: with ammonium. Whenever he hits himself, he'll stop hitting himself

1121
01:00:11,000 --> 01:00:13,840
Speaker 1: as long as you're applying those punishments whenever he starts

1122
01:00:14,040 --> 01:00:19,240
Speaker 1: the behavior. But that's that's not helping him. That that's

1123
01:00:19,440 --> 01:00:21,960
Speaker 1: it's really all it's helping is like the adults around

1124
01:00:22,040 --> 01:00:24,160
Speaker 1: him who are unsettled by the behavior, but you're not

1125
01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:26,560
Speaker 1: providing him with anything better. I think you can make

1126
01:00:26,560 --> 01:00:28,440
Speaker 1: an argument that if this kid is, like I don't know,

1127
01:00:28,520 --> 01:00:31,400
Speaker 1: trying to like kill himself or whatever, and you apply

1128
01:00:31,480 --> 01:00:35,360
Speaker 1: in aversive therapy that stops the behavior, maybe that's the

1129
01:00:35,520 --> 01:00:38,280
Speaker 1: only option you have in that short term. But again,

1130
01:00:38,360 --> 01:00:41,600
Speaker 1: it's still not a long term solution, and the vast

1131
01:00:41,640 --> 01:00:43,920
Speaker 1: majority of these kids it's not that severe. Again, if

1132
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:46,640
Speaker 1: you've got a kid who's trying to put their head

1133
01:00:46,680 --> 01:00:48,920
Speaker 1: through a glass window and you will apply in aversive

1134
01:00:48,960 --> 01:00:52,280
Speaker 1: in the moment to stop that behavior, uh, somehow, I

1135
01:00:52,360 --> 01:00:54,160
Speaker 1: guess you could make an argument for it. I'm not

1136
01:00:54,200 --> 01:00:57,000
Speaker 1: saying that's the right thing to do, um, but it's not.

1137
01:00:57,160 --> 01:00:59,000
Speaker 1: It's still not going to solve the problem. You would

1138
01:00:59,040 --> 01:01:03,560
Speaker 1: need to they need long term therapeutic help, and that's

1139
01:01:03,640 --> 01:01:05,440
Speaker 1: not what is happening at b r I. B r

1140
01:01:05,480 --> 01:01:07,480
Speaker 1: I is just saying, as long as we keep torturing

1141
01:01:07,520 --> 01:01:10,680
Speaker 1: these kids, they won't engage in the behavior you brought

1142
01:01:10,760 --> 01:01:13,120
Speaker 1: them here for. But also they can never leave or

1143
01:01:13,120 --> 01:01:18,560
Speaker 1: stop being tortured, which is a nightmare. Yeah, and it's

1144
01:01:18,600 --> 01:01:21,320
Speaker 1: it's it's interesting to me because he's he's he's rejecting

1145
01:01:21,360 --> 01:01:24,080
Speaker 1: the use of like doping kids up in order to

1146
01:01:24,160 --> 01:01:27,960
Speaker 1: deal with this behavior. And yeah, it feels like it's

1147
01:01:28,040 --> 01:01:33,280
Speaker 1: just like doping in a different way. It's yeah, it's like, yeah,

1148
01:01:33,840 --> 01:01:37,400
Speaker 1: sure we're not drugging them, but we are basically taking

1149
01:01:37,400 --> 01:01:40,440
Speaker 1: pemmony on spraying in the face. So and it's like,

1150
01:01:40,560 --> 01:01:43,000
Speaker 1: you know, drugging them doesn't work because you're just covering

1151
01:01:43,080 --> 01:01:44,760
Speaker 1: up the problem with drugs. It's like, well, you're just

1152
01:01:44,840 --> 01:01:47,360
Speaker 1: covering up the problem with fucking torture. Yeah, I think

1153
01:01:47,360 --> 01:01:49,200
Speaker 1: a lot of kids would rather, if you have, if

1154
01:01:49,240 --> 01:01:51,720
Speaker 1: your choices, be doped up or be tortured. I'm gonna

1155
01:01:51,720 --> 01:01:54,240
Speaker 1: guess a lot of kids would choose dope if they Yeah,

1156
01:01:55,680 --> 01:01:59,520
Speaker 1: choice not that not Again, one of the issues you

1157
01:01:59,600 --> 01:02:02,200
Speaker 1: haven't just guessing this is that like, for kids this severe,

1158
01:02:02,520 --> 01:02:04,479
Speaker 1: there's not a lot of good options at this point.

1159
01:02:04,720 --> 01:02:07,760
Speaker 1: That's not today and the school is still around today.

1160
01:02:07,840 --> 01:02:09,800
Speaker 1: Today there are a lot better options. But the fucking

1161
01:02:09,880 --> 01:02:12,680
Speaker 1: seventies and eighties, it is the wild West for this.

1162
01:02:14,200 --> 01:02:15,840
Speaker 1: And so you do have to have some understanding for

1163
01:02:15,920 --> 01:02:18,040
Speaker 1: parents who are like, well, what are my fucking options,

1164
01:02:18,200 --> 01:02:21,080
Speaker 1: you know, and yeah, they don't have a lot of them.

1165
01:02:21,600 --> 01:02:26,800
Speaker 1: Not to mitigate Israel's behavior here, but there's a lot

1166
01:02:26,840 --> 01:02:29,640
Speaker 1: of desperation on behalf of of of the parents and

1167
01:02:29,760 --> 01:02:31,560
Speaker 1: of the schools that are sending kids to b r

1168
01:02:31,640 --> 01:02:34,640
Speaker 1: I maybe, and they're also not in fully aware of

1169
01:02:34,720 --> 01:02:40,440
Speaker 1: everything that's happening at b r I too. Yep. So,

1170
01:02:40,680 --> 01:02:43,560
Speaker 1: as the court battles raged on, Israel eventually hit upon

1171
01:02:43,640 --> 01:02:45,800
Speaker 1: the idea of bringing one of his most self abuse

1172
01:02:45,840 --> 01:02:49,160
Speaker 1: of students before Judge Ernest Rodenberg for a hearing at

1173
01:02:49,200 --> 01:02:53,360
Speaker 1: the Bristol County Probade Court in six Rodenberg found Israel's

1174
01:02:53,400 --> 01:02:56,920
Speaker 1: presentation so convincing that the judge ruled that the patient

1175
01:02:57,000 --> 01:02:58,840
Speaker 1: would have chosen to go to b r I if

1176
01:02:58,880 --> 01:03:02,040
Speaker 1: they've been mentally capable of doing so. The Office for

1177
01:03:02,240 --> 01:03:04,840
Speaker 1: Children in b r I settled in nineteen eight seven.

1178
01:03:05,080 --> 01:03:07,520
Speaker 1: The States paid the school half a million dollars, and

1179
01:03:07,640 --> 01:03:10,080
Speaker 1: Judge Rodenberg ruled that b r I would be allowed

1180
01:03:10,160 --> 01:03:12,880
Speaker 1: to continue using a Verson's as long as each student's

1181
01:03:12,920 --> 01:03:16,440
Speaker 1: treatment plan was approved by a probate court. Matt Israel

1182
01:03:16,560 --> 01:03:18,960
Speaker 1: was so happy with this verdict that a few years later,

1183
01:03:19,040 --> 01:03:22,920
Speaker 1: in nineteen nine four, he renamed his Behavior Research Institute

1184
01:03:22,960 --> 01:03:24,880
Speaker 1: in honor of the judge who had allowed his work

1185
01:03:24,960 --> 01:03:27,680
Speaker 1: to continue. From then on b R I was known

1186
01:03:28,040 --> 01:03:38,880
Speaker 1: as the Judge Rodenberg Center. Yeah oh boy, yeah, bad ship.

1187
01:03:39,680 --> 01:03:46,880
Speaker 1: How are you feeling? Aim? Oh, well, I will didn't think.

1188
01:03:48,320 --> 01:03:50,520
Speaker 1: I mean, it's a lot, but I kind of figured

1189
01:03:50,560 --> 01:03:55,800
Speaker 1: there's gonna be some ship. Yeah yeah, I mean yeah, yeah.

1190
01:03:56,800 --> 01:04:00,439
Speaker 1: That's one of the things. Unfortunately, especially with the whole

1191
01:04:00,600 --> 01:04:04,920
Speaker 1: wild West thing, it's definitely gotten a lot better in

1192
01:04:05,160 --> 01:04:09,400
Speaker 1: terms of getting treatment, in terms of whatnot, finding groups

1193
01:04:09,480 --> 01:04:11,760
Speaker 1: and finding people that can help you out. In terms

1194
01:04:11,800 --> 01:04:17,160
Speaker 1: of this, I'm just let's see where is it gonna go? Yeah,

1195
01:04:17,840 --> 01:04:20,080
Speaker 1: now we're good, but you know what is going to

1196
01:04:20,200 --> 01:04:29,280
Speaker 1: go somewhere? Good? The products and services that sponsor this show. Um,

1197
01:04:29,880 --> 01:04:32,680
Speaker 1: well no, it's not a products and services time. What's good?

1198
01:04:32,840 --> 01:04:41,040
Speaker 1: Is your your plugs? Oh yes, plugs? You can with

1199
01:04:41,200 --> 01:04:44,320
Speaker 1: your I'm just interrupting you and no, none of them.

1200
01:04:45,440 --> 01:04:48,360
Speaker 1: It's okay. I'm just trying to pull it up. Uh,

1201
01:04:48,840 --> 01:04:51,600
Speaker 1: don't have too much of My biggest presence is on

1202
01:04:51,720 --> 01:04:55,120
Speaker 1: Twitter at notch They'll be n O T C H

1203
01:04:55,600 --> 01:04:59,240
Speaker 1: T H E B and I just punched post a

1204
01:04:59,320 --> 01:05:02,480
Speaker 1: lot of political stuff bunch of stupid stuff. It's a

1205
01:05:02,520 --> 01:05:10,640
Speaker 1: fun time. Yeah. Well, um, that's the episode you can

1206
01:05:10,720 --> 01:05:14,560
Speaker 1: find us. I mean, where where you found us. Let's

1207
01:05:14,560 --> 01:05:16,240
Speaker 1: be honest, you found us. You know where we are.

1208
01:05:16,440 --> 01:05:20,120
Speaker 1: You're listening right now, like, don't don't funk around with me, like,

1209
01:05:20,200 --> 01:05:21,720
Speaker 1: you know where we are. You know where you are.

1210
01:05:21,840 --> 01:05:26,080
Speaker 1: You good at our other shows. Hard, it's not gonna

1211
01:05:26,080 --> 01:05:28,160
Speaker 1: be hard, alright. Episode over.