1 00:00:10,240 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 1: Hi, guys, and welcome back to another episode of You 2 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:18,079 Speaker 1: Need Therapy. My name is Kat and today we have 3 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:22,480 Speaker 1: a special special guest with us. We have Amy Brown. 4 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 1: Say hi, Hi, I'm super special, super special. Amy has 5 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:32,159 Speaker 1: not been on You Need Therapy before, but I have 6 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:34,879 Speaker 1: been on her podcast Four Things with Amy Brown and 7 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:38,839 Speaker 1: her podcast that she does with Lisa ham Outweigh before 8 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 1: and we thought it was about time she comes over here. Yeah, no, 9 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 1: it's definitely time. Yeah. I'm excited to be on and 10 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: I know that our topic is a little bit I 11 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 1: don't know that I describe it as exciting, but I am, 12 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 1: I guess honored to be on You Need Therapy. I 13 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 1: know so many people that love this podcast. I am 14 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 1: one of them, so just happy to join you in 15 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 1: this conversation. Well, thank you. Before we get going, I 16 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:07,120 Speaker 1: want to remind you, guys that this is a podcast 17 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:09,000 Speaker 1: that is hosted by a therapist, but what it is 18 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: not is actual therapy. And what I hope is that 19 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:16,839 Speaker 1: this podcast is a spearhead or something that helps move 20 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: you into that space if that's what you feel like 21 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 1: you need. But want to stay up top before we 22 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:23,280 Speaker 1: get going, because we're going to talk about something that's 23 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:25,399 Speaker 1: a little bit more serious today that this is not 24 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 1: a substitute, but it is an addition and a bonus. 25 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:30,759 Speaker 1: So without any more waiting, let's talk about what we're 26 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:32,959 Speaker 1: going to talk about today. We are going to be 27 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:37,480 Speaker 1: tackling Greek grief. I'm trying to say it with you 28 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 1: for a dramatic effect, but okay. So the thing is, 29 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 1: grief is a very serious subject and we're gonna obviously 30 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 1: take it super seriously and talk about it and the 31 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 1: realities of it. But at the same time, I like 32 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 1: to take an approach where things are manageable. So you 33 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 1: might hear us laughing, you might hear us telling stories 34 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:00,280 Speaker 1: that feel good. You might it might be confus using. 35 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 1: This isn't supposed to be a Debbie Downer episode. This 36 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 1: is supposed to be a helpful episode. So thank you 37 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:09,359 Speaker 1: for that intro because that got me feeling well calm okay, 38 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 1: so I will go ahead and stay up top. I 39 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:15,080 Speaker 1: would not consider myself an expert when it comes to 40 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:19,320 Speaker 1: grief in general as a therapist. And it's funny because 41 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 1: when I started as a private practice therapist, you have 42 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 1: to kind of think about what it is that you 43 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:25,960 Speaker 1: want to specialize how you want to market yourself all 44 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 1: of that, and I remember saying like I can do 45 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:30,640 Speaker 1: a lot of things, but one thing I know I 46 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 1: cannot do and I don't want to do is grief work. 47 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:38,240 Speaker 1: Why because it's hard. Well, yes, yes it's it's hard, 48 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:40,520 Speaker 1: and a lot of things are hard, but it's hard 49 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:43,920 Speaker 1: in a different way because how you treat grief is 50 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 1: not fixing us a problem. You can't solve grief. It 51 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:51,800 Speaker 1: can't be fixed, and a lot of grief work is 52 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 1: just being in it with somebody. I just feel like, 53 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:56,960 Speaker 1: even as a therapist, for you sitting with people in 54 00:02:57,080 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: whatever they're going through that day, I don't know how 55 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:02,079 Speaker 1: y'all do it, and you walk away and kind of 56 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:04,800 Speaker 1: have to shut it off because for me, I feel 57 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 1: like just the weight of all of that would be 58 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 1: on me all the time because people are going through 59 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:14,839 Speaker 1: a lot of things and you're the one you're you're 60 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 1: taking that in right, says a therapist For this a 61 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 1: whole another topic. But there has to be something you 62 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:23,359 Speaker 1: do to kind of, you know, leave it at work, 63 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:27,040 Speaker 1: like compartmentalize it or to an extent. I think there's 64 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 1: ways to practice that, and that is part of this 65 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 1: because As a therapist, you have to build up some 66 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 1: kind of armor to be able to withstand the fact 67 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 1: that there are people that are gonna be coming into 68 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 1: your office that just feel awful and there's nothing you 69 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 1: can do to change that, right, That is grief. For 70 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 1: a lot of times, there's nothing we can do to 71 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 1: take the pain away, and actually that would be probably 72 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 1: doing them a disservice for me, I know personally, I 73 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 1: found out later why that grief was so hard. But 74 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 1: I'm a seven on the Inn Graham, and if anybody 75 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 1: is familiar, what we like to do is avoid pain, 76 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 1: and so grief work forces me to be present with it. 77 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:10,560 Speaker 1: It's like my worst nightmare. Now I have worked on 78 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 1: that sense, and what I have found is there was 79 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 1: not a way for me to avoid doing grief work. 80 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 1: There's no way as a therapist I could say I 81 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 1: don't do that. Now let's say I don't want to 82 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:24,159 Speaker 1: work with O c D. I can do that, but 83 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 1: there's absolutely no way to avoid if I'm going to 84 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 1: be a therapist to avoid working with grief. Yeah, I 85 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 1: feel like people are grieving things all the time, and 86 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 1: there's such a wide variety of things you can grieve 87 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 1: and if you're if you have a client, there's someone 88 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 1: that you're working with, like one week, they might not 89 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:44,040 Speaker 1: be experiencing grief, but something can happen in an instant 90 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:46,040 Speaker 1: and the next time they see you, they have grief. 91 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:50,160 Speaker 1: And I'm like, you're just like, I can't do that well, right, 92 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 1: And so I think that has to do with what 93 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 1: we think grief is. So let's just start with that, Okay. 94 00:04:56,760 --> 00:05:00,480 Speaker 1: I want to hear from you, like what you know grief, 95 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 1: what you know it to be now and what you 96 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 1: might have known it to be or believe it to 97 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 1: be in your past, Like, just as you how would 98 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 1: you define what grief is? I feel like grieving is 99 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:13,919 Speaker 1: the loss of well, in my experience with grief, it 100 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 1: represents the loss of something. That's when I have grieved. 101 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 1: I don't know if that's accurate, but it doesn't have 102 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 1: to be the loss of life necessarily. Although I've grieved 103 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:28,920 Speaker 1: that I've lost my mom and my dad, but I 104 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 1: wanted to, you know, be pregnant and birth children. I 105 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:35,920 Speaker 1: never lost any children, never experienced a miscarriage. I now 106 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 1: am an adoptive mom and I love my children. But 107 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 1: I did have to grieve that I'm not going to 108 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:45,840 Speaker 1: ever carry a baby, So that was a loss of Yeah, 109 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 1: not a person, but in a dream or an experience 110 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:51,719 Speaker 1: that I thought I was going to have. So there's 111 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 1: been a loss of certain opportunities I thought I was 112 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:58,720 Speaker 1: going to have that went away, a loss of friendships. 113 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 1: People are physically still here on earth, but you kind 114 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 1: of things change. Life changes, people move, situations change. So 115 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 1: I feel like that's what it is for me. Yeah, 116 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 1: I would say grief is like either the loss or 117 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 1: the death of something. It doesn't have to be exactly 118 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:16,599 Speaker 1: what you said. It doesn't have to be a human 119 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 1: being or like an animal. It is literally anything that 120 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:22,480 Speaker 1: you lose you can have, you can and will have 121 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:25,599 Speaker 1: a grieving process through. And I don't know why. For 122 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 1: a long time, I didn't acknowledge that because I had 123 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 1: never lost somebody super significant that I wouldn't have expected. 124 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 1: I felt like I hadn't really grieved a lot in 125 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:37,360 Speaker 1: my life. And then that quickly changed. And I think 126 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 1: that also brings in this idea that I know I 127 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 1: had to work through. And I want to hear you 128 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 1: two of this comparative grief. And I say that because 129 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 1: anybody who's listening you might not have lost somebody significant 130 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:51,279 Speaker 1: in your life, but you might have gone through a 131 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 1: lot of really really really really really tough stuff, and 132 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 1: I think it's important to acknowledge that you might have 133 00:06:56,720 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 1: grieved through that, or you might need to grief through that. 134 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 1: So I'm curious about is have there been moments in 135 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 1: your life and maybe you think about it in hindsight, 136 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:07,200 Speaker 1: but have there been moments in your life when you're 137 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:09,560 Speaker 1: looking back now and you're like, oh, wow, that was 138 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 1: a grieving process. But I didn't know that. I didn't 139 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 1: allow myself to actually allow that to be a huge 140 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 1: deal because well, I think there's stuff from my childhood 141 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 1: that clearly I didn't know. I wasn't given the tools, 142 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 1: and I you know, my dad left when I was nine, 143 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 1: and I feel like, as an adult, parts of me 144 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 1: have had to go back and grieve my childhood a 145 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 1: little bit. Okay, that's actually a really good point. And 146 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:34,480 Speaker 1: I've done that work. I've I've gone back and did 147 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 1: some even brain spotting to work through some of that. 148 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 1: But I didn't realize that that was the thing where 149 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 1: once you're an adult and you realize and you look 150 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 1: back and you're kind of I wish I had had 151 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 1: this mom and this dad and this family intact. And 152 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 1: I would look around and see all my friends and 153 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 1: their parents still married and still together, and you know, 154 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 1: their dad didn't leave and their mom didn't have to 155 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 1: go to work, and not that that's everybody's circumstances, but 156 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 1: in my house, my mom did work at all, and 157 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 1: she was stay at home mom. And then at nine, 158 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 1: my dad left and everything changed and my mom went 159 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 1: to work full time and she was now a single 160 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 1: parent and she was very busy. So I kind of 161 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 1: feel like I lost my dad, but I also lost 162 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 1: my mom in a different way, the different kind of 163 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 1: mom that I had. So I didn't realize all the 164 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 1: different ways in which that affected me and how I 165 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 1: am the way that I am about certain things. But 166 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 1: I had to almost accept that. But it is like 167 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 1: I had to grieve my idea of what I thought 168 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 1: my childhood was. And I think it was healthy for 169 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 1: me to go back and do that at forty years old, 170 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 1: to go back and like understand that that's what happened 171 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 1: and that's okay. And then I think that I dealt 172 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:43,560 Speaker 1: with my mom's death. That was the first time I 173 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 1: ever lost somebody that I was super close to. I 174 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:50,599 Speaker 1: didn't have grandparents on my dad's side. I had a grandma. 175 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:53,679 Speaker 1: I remember she died when I was eighteen. I remember 176 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:57,079 Speaker 1: being really sad about that, and I felt close to her, 177 00:08:57,120 --> 00:08:59,560 Speaker 1: but we weren't like super duper close. But my mom, 178 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:03,080 Speaker 1: that is losing a best friend, and I didn't know 179 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:06,440 Speaker 1: how to do it. Okay, I didn't know. So there's 180 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:09,720 Speaker 1: a lot in that that I would love to unpack. 181 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 1: Their one I will say, I think what you're talking 182 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 1: about is the finding the awareness, so then you can 183 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 1: go back in your childhood to grieve something that you 184 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 1: didn't know that you essentially lost. But once you do that, 185 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:27,439 Speaker 1: then you can actually be in your present and accept 186 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 1: and move forward in your present with what you have. 187 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 1: And I think that makes a big difference in people's lives. 188 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:36,200 Speaker 1: But also I'm more interested in right now after hearing that, 189 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 1: is you had a really complicated grief story with your 190 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:42,840 Speaker 1: mom because she was sick for a really long time. Yeah, 191 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:45,080 Speaker 1: she had cancer for two years and my sister and 192 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:48,679 Speaker 1: I were primary caregivers. Yeah, and you're single. Yeah, and 193 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:50,839 Speaker 1: that's I guess for some people it's normal, but it's 194 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 1: also not normal because you're in this like anticipatory grief stage, right, 195 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:57,680 Speaker 1: so you don't really know what's going to happen, but 196 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 1: you're also preparing for multiple things to happen. And and 197 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:03,440 Speaker 1: so there's your grieving something while your mom is here. 198 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:07,079 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you're in denial, while some you know, denials 199 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 1: of one of the stages of grief. But it's like, 200 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:11,319 Speaker 1: so I feel like you can even be in that. 201 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 1: After after I lost her, I was like, no, this 202 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:15,839 Speaker 1: isn't real. She's not really gone. But even when we 203 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 1: were my sister and I were talking about this the 204 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:20,080 Speaker 1: other day, like even when our mom was in hospice, 205 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 1: which at the time I didn't even know what hospice was, 206 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 1: and I was I mean, this was not I was 207 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:28,440 Speaker 1: an adult. I was thirty three years old. So this 208 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 1: was two thousand fourteen, and they they're sitting me and 209 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:36,480 Speaker 1: my sister down at the hospice place, and they're explaining 210 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 1: what's going to happen. And in our minds though, we 211 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:41,559 Speaker 1: were like, oh, but we're not going to be here 212 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:42,960 Speaker 1: for a while, like she's gonna get better and then 213 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 1: we're gonna go home. Like I didn't realize hospice was 214 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 1: like end of life, like palliative care, like, at this point, 215 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:52,959 Speaker 1: we're just keeping her comfortable until her body says it's time. 216 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:56,840 Speaker 1: And it's almost like we couldn't see that. We were 217 00:10:56,880 --> 00:10:59,200 Speaker 1: completely blind to what they were saying. And they literally 218 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:02,080 Speaker 1: gave us a pamp it that walked us through all 219 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 1: of the steps that my mom was likely going to 220 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 1: be experiencing the next several days. And even with that, 221 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:09,800 Speaker 1: we were like, oh, yeah, I mean, but yeah, we'll 222 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 1: get her home and she's going to be fine. Looking back, 223 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 1: it was so wild and I almost I got to 224 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:17,680 Speaker 1: walk through that with a friend a couple of weeks ago, 225 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:20,200 Speaker 1: where they called to just get my advice on it 226 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:23,680 Speaker 1: because they were given similar type news. I was thankful 227 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 1: that I was in a way able to prepare them 228 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 1: for something that I wasn't properly prepared for, and I 229 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:34,199 Speaker 1: was able to give them that sort of that heads 230 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:36,320 Speaker 1: up because then when it happens, you're kind of just 231 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:40,200 Speaker 1: like hit over the head and you're like, oh, that's 232 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 1: what they were trying to say. So there's times where 233 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 1: her cancer would go away and we were hopeful, and 234 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:48,960 Speaker 1: then it would return and it metastasized, and then we're like, oh, okay, 235 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:51,679 Speaker 1: now what does this mean? And so, yeah, there's with 236 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:55,679 Speaker 1: any illness like that that can be life threatening. It's 237 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 1: a roller coaster well, because the anticipatory grief is grieving 238 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 1: something before it happens. But the thing is, even though 239 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 1: you're grieving while your mom's here, that does not shorten 240 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:07,959 Speaker 1: the grief after. And so I think that's a really 241 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 1: confusing thing for a lot of people. And that's something 242 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:14,440 Speaker 1: I think that people do in a protection sense, and 243 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:17,320 Speaker 1: we do that with all kinds of things. We like 244 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 1: anticipate bad things happening to us and try to move 245 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 1: through all of these stages, whether or not we know 246 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:26,839 Speaker 1: it's conscious or not, and subconsciously we're thinking this is 247 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 1: going to help us get through it faster. On the 248 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 1: other side, in reality it doesn't. That means you're grieving twice. 249 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 1: I don't think that you can help it. I don't 250 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 1: think there's a way to stop it. But I do 251 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 1: want to you mention the stages of grief. I want 252 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 1: to talk about them. And one thing I will say 253 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:43,839 Speaker 1: about denial, which I think is exactly what you're talking about, 254 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:48,839 Speaker 1: is I find denial as a tool. Essentially, it's like 255 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 1: a good thing. I don't know that people understand that, 256 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 1: and they might you might be thinking, like what are 257 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 1: you talking about, like denying reality? Like how is that 258 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:58,680 Speaker 1: a good thing? But it's also a way that I 259 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 1: think our brains in the world, in nature and the 260 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:06,080 Speaker 1: divine allows us to only understand and know as much 261 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 1: as we can handle in that moment. So and in 262 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:12,720 Speaker 1: a way like, yes, our brains can be protecting us, 263 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 1: like from a lot of pain that's ahead, and like 264 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 1: you will accept what actually is reality when you're ready 265 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:23,959 Speaker 1: and able to accept that. And I think a lot 266 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 1: of times people want to push people through these denial 267 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:28,200 Speaker 1: stages and it's like you can't, like you just have 268 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:30,840 Speaker 1: to let it happen. But that sounds like exactly what 269 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 1: was going on when you were like we had these 270 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:35,679 Speaker 1: pamphlets they said what was going to happen, but we 271 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 1: didn't like actually recognize that. Well. I feel like they 272 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:41,600 Speaker 1: were gentle in their explanation too. They could have been 273 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 1: a little more aggressive. And that's why when you know, 274 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:45,920 Speaker 1: my friend was spaced, So then I'm glad you said 275 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 1: that everybody's grief it's different, in their grieving process is different. Right, 276 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 1: So when my friend called for advice again, any time 277 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:56,440 Speaker 1: like that also gives you an opportunity to use what 278 00:13:56,480 --> 00:14:00,040 Speaker 1: you went through for good and comfort to some it 279 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 1: else because it's like, at the end of the day, 280 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 1: none of us want to go through anything alone. So 281 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:09,079 Speaker 1: anytime you've been through a difficult season, whatever it may be, 282 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 1: when someone else you know might be going through something 283 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:15,079 Speaker 1: similar and you can come alongside them, like that helps 284 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 1: give some purpose and you know and meaning to what 285 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 1: you went through. And we're all in this wild journey 286 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 1: here and we've all got different stories. But you know 287 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 1: when you have a friend that somehow might need you 288 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 1: in a way that you've experienced before. But I in 289 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 1: no way wanted to like, yeah, like step in and 290 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 1: be like, well here, don't go into denial. But I 291 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 1: think I was able to offer him something that I 292 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 1: wish I would have had at the time. And whether 293 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 1: his his glasses, his goggles, like whatever you want to 294 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 1: call him, whatever, whatever filter he puts it through, that's 295 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 1: going to be up to you know, my friend. But yeah, 296 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 1: I mean, you're right. I never thought of it as 297 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 1: as a way of protection and that when I was 298 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 1: good and ready, then my body would allow me, my 299 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 1: brain and my heart would allow me to realize, yeah, 300 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 1: I hadn't thought of that well. And I think that 301 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 1: that framework is helpful in grief in general, because what 302 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 1: I believe for myself about grief is I want to 303 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 1: get out of it as fast as possible. This would 304 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 1: be me ten years ago if I needed to go 305 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:16,640 Speaker 1: to therapy for grief work, I would go to my 306 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:19,280 Speaker 1: therapist and I'd be like, Hey, this is what's going on. 307 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 1: I need to know what I need to do to 308 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 1: get to the other side of this. I need some steps, 309 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 1: I need some tools, I need some tips. I need 310 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 1: you to tell me what to do to feel better. 311 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:32,680 Speaker 1: And that's what I would want. The reality is that's 312 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 1: not possible for anybody to do that. There's no protocol. 313 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:40,320 Speaker 1: There's stages of grief, but and I want to I 314 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 1: let's talk about them, because I think that is something 315 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 1: that in the general public gets the most misconstrued about 316 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 1: what grief is and and and what the stages are. 317 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 1: Because I don't know if you knew this, I might 318 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 1: have said this to you already, but the stages of 319 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 1: grief were not created originally for grieving other people's stuff 320 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 1: or other things in your life. The stages of grief 321 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 1: were originated to help people understand the process of coming 322 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 1: to terms with their own death, like your own, like mine, 323 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:14,680 Speaker 1: and they ended up being adapted to grief in general 324 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 1: because people were doing it anyway, so the people that 325 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 1: created them, Elizabeth Coobler Ross was the person that originated this, 326 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 1: and then in man name David Kessler ended up working 327 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 1: with her and writing a couple of books with her, 328 00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 1: and then they wrote the book on Grief and Grieving 329 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 1: Together that took the stages of grief for your own 330 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:34,000 Speaker 1: death and adapted them to grief in general. They're the 331 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 1: same stages, but I do think it's important to talk 332 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 1: about them because what I thought they were is not 333 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:42,600 Speaker 1: what they were. I thought that these were the stages, 334 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 1: and I laughed because I don't know if I just 335 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 1: wasn't paying attention or is it taught to me wrong 336 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 1: in school. But I remember the stages being like, Okay, 337 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 1: these are the things that you do, and this is 338 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 1: what you need to look at, and this is how 339 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 1: it happens, and then you're done. And the reality is 340 00:16:56,720 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 1: the stages are just descriptions of what you might experience. 341 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 1: That's right. Some people might hit every stage, some people 342 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 1: might hit it in a totally different order than they're in. 343 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 1: Some people might only hit one of the five or 344 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 1: seven or how many there are, and then honestly, you're 345 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:14,480 Speaker 1: never done. You're never done grieving. That's what That's the 346 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:17,879 Speaker 1: first thing you have to accept is that it's just 347 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 1: not something that you fix. So I wonder for you 348 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 1: knowing that grief is never done and it's never something 349 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:33,439 Speaker 1: that I'm going to get to the end. There's not 350 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 1: a finish line in grief work. What is that like 351 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:39,119 Speaker 1: for you in some of the grief you've experienced. I 352 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 1: feel like knowing that now and knowing it well because 353 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 1: I've done a lot of work lately. It actually it's 354 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:49,959 Speaker 1: sort of is relief in a way. It's like, oh, wow, 355 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:54,879 Speaker 1: I have permission to live with this. It's hard, like 356 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:57,200 Speaker 1: I don't. I wish I didn't have to live with this, right, 357 00:17:57,359 --> 00:17:59,439 Speaker 1: I don't. I don't want this as part of my 358 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:03,119 Speaker 1: story because it's sad, like you know, I would rather 359 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 1: have my mom and my dad here. But the fact 360 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:09,960 Speaker 1: that it's known and told to us by experts that 361 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 1: like sorry, it's then it's like for me it's a 362 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 1: little bit freeing of like Okay, I'm not messed up. 363 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 1: I'm not crazy because I'm feeling certain things like I 364 00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:23,880 Speaker 1: would think at some point I should have been over 365 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 1: some stuff with my mom, right, and I felt like 366 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:29,679 Speaker 1: it's some of my behaviors after my mom died. I 367 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:32,439 Speaker 1: felt a little bit crazy. I felt like I'm just 368 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 1: not handling this right. But back to your point of like, well, no, 369 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:38,920 Speaker 1: my brain and my body and my heart like I 370 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 1: was doing the best that I could to survive in 371 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:44,480 Speaker 1: that moment. I was because that's when my eating disorder returned, 372 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:48,119 Speaker 1: and that's what my body knew in that moment I 373 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 1: needed to survive that. Again, I don't want I don't 374 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 1: want that to be everybody's story. I hate that it 375 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:55,719 Speaker 1: was part of mine. To me, it was very confusing, 376 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:58,239 Speaker 1: But now I see because that was something I had 377 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:02,639 Speaker 1: used earlier in life. That was where my brain went like, oh, okay, 378 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 1: I know how to take care of you. Right now, 379 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:06,840 Speaker 1: we're gonna comb out with this. So I have grace 380 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:09,920 Speaker 1: for myself and that I'm not angry that that's what happened. 381 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 1: I'm actually like, okay, cool. That was part of my 382 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:15,439 Speaker 1: journey to get where I am. But then there was 383 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 1: different things throughout my mom's death, and as time would 384 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 1: go by that I kept thinking like, Okay, I shouldn't 385 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:22,159 Speaker 1: be feel Why am I sad today? I shouldn't be 386 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:24,320 Speaker 1: feeling this like I've done this, this and this, But 387 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:26,880 Speaker 1: where I am differently with losing my dad this year 388 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:28,840 Speaker 1: and all the work that I put into it, and 389 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:31,400 Speaker 1: I think how I've matured in a way with how 390 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 1: it looks, and then hearing all this permission, yes, that 391 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:36,439 Speaker 1: grieve never ends. Like I don't feel that pressure on 392 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 1: myself like I did with my mom to like have 393 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:42,439 Speaker 1: it figured out, hit the different stages with that's what 394 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:43,760 Speaker 1: we want to call them, And not that I was 395 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 1: ever going by checklist with my mom, but I did 396 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 1: feel odd how some days I would just get super sad. 397 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 1: And now with my dad, I'm like, wow, okay, if 398 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 1: I get super sad, like that's okay. I'm allowed to 399 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 1: be super sad today. If I was triggered by something 400 00:19:57,920 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 1: that really reminded me of my dad and made me 401 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:02,760 Speaker 1: really sad, well that's all right. There's nothing wrong with me. 402 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:04,880 Speaker 1: That doesn't mean I'm broken. I feel like you're looking 403 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:10,280 Speaker 1: at me weird. I'm not. I think that's really cool, 404 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 1: but that's what That's what it's done for me is 405 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:16,640 Speaker 1: knowing that it never has it can't get fixed for me. 406 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:18,399 Speaker 1: I don't know if you would have told me this 407 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 1: with my mom, I probably would have been overwhelmed and 408 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 1: I'm like, no, no, we need to fix this. I 409 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:25,199 Speaker 1: need to grieve my mom, do all the things like 410 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:27,680 Speaker 1: whatever we need to do. And then now I'm like, okay, yeah, 411 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:30,480 Speaker 1: I'm still doing the proper things to try to heal 412 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:33,760 Speaker 1: from the pain, but in a way, I'm no longer 413 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:37,160 Speaker 1: trying to numb it out. I'm no longer trying to 414 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:40,639 Speaker 1: expedite the process. I'm no longer, you know, trying to 415 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 1: get to the finish line. Because I know there isn't 416 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:44,560 Speaker 1: a finish line. Doesn't mean there's not work to be 417 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:48,600 Speaker 1: done by any means there's work, but the pressure is off. 418 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:51,840 Speaker 1: It kind of for me has I feel a little 419 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 1: bit more relief in grieving my dad than I did 420 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:58,160 Speaker 1: with my mom. It's two very different situations that are, 421 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 1: you know, seven years apart. When I think the weird 422 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 1: look you're getting from me is really my brain is 423 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:09,200 Speaker 1: so different than yours. And when I hear that there 424 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:12,720 Speaker 1: is no end in grief and this is probably very 425 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:15,080 Speaker 1: tightly attached to the reason why I never wanted to 426 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:18,119 Speaker 1: work with it as a therapist is it doesn't always 427 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:22,440 Speaker 1: make me feel better. It pisces me off. I am frustrated. 428 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:25,680 Speaker 1: Why would that make you mad? Because I don't want this, 429 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:28,199 Speaker 1: But you don't have it every day. I mean some 430 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 1: people might. I mean I don't, but like it's it's 431 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:33,639 Speaker 1: it comes and goes. But yeah, I have felt and 432 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 1: I understand the fact that grief looks different as you 433 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:40,480 Speaker 1: move further away from what you're grieving. But it pisces 434 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:43,120 Speaker 1: me off that there is not something I can do 435 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 1: to make this go away, Because in most areas of 436 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:48,880 Speaker 1: my life, there is something I can do, and there 437 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:52,200 Speaker 1: is a way for me to not totally erase this thing. 438 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 1: But I have more power and control over fixing whatever 439 00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:58,920 Speaker 1: it is that needs to be fixed. And I do 440 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:01,119 Speaker 1: not like being told that there's nothing I can do, 441 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 1: and I do not like having to just oh, okay, 442 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:08,920 Speaker 1: you have to. If you're relearning grief is relearning how 443 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 1: to live your life with just different circumstances. Right, You're 444 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:15,120 Speaker 1: carrying it with you. It's always with you, and that's 445 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 1: why I guess there is something you can do for 446 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:20,320 Speaker 1: the grief, right, but you're not. It's always going to 447 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,959 Speaker 1: be there. I recently had a grief expert on my podcast, 448 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:26,960 Speaker 1: Megan Divine, and she described it with the metaphor of 449 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 1: like a backpack that has all of these just different 450 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:33,879 Speaker 1: life situations that are happening, and some big grief ones 451 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 1: might be like sharp objects that are coming out of 452 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 1: the backpack, and you still have the backpack, but you 453 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 1: might have to reposition it sometimes while on your journey. 454 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,520 Speaker 1: So that's not poking you on the side, but the 455 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 1: but the sharp object in the backpack your grief. It's 456 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:50,800 Speaker 1: always still there, but how are you going to position 457 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:53,320 Speaker 1: the backpack to carry it with you? She's really good. 458 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:57,679 Speaker 1: She actually came out with a grief journal that's literally 459 00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 1: called how to Carry what can't be fixed, which is 460 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:03,680 Speaker 1: the grief. So I need to get the jury again. 461 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 1: I've said the seventeen times we're going to talk about 462 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:07,359 Speaker 1: the stages, and I want to mention them. But I 463 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,639 Speaker 1: also think it's important to tie in and pull in 464 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:14,160 Speaker 1: other things that people might be grieving, because I think 465 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 1: that it's a lot of times death is focused on 466 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 1: and I'm sitting here thinking about, well, what am I 467 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:22,359 Speaker 1: and what am I grieving right now? Like what actually 468 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:24,959 Speaker 1: am I mad about? And I think about things like 469 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:28,760 Speaker 1: life stages or or things that you thought were going 470 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,800 Speaker 1: to happen in your life, like you said, like getting pregnant, 471 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 1: or maybe for you it's getting married at a certain time, 472 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:37,879 Speaker 1: maybe to be a divorce. It could be yeah, it 473 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:40,600 Speaker 1: could be a career or a job that you It 474 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 1: can be anything. And I think it's important to mention 475 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 1: those things because what I see happening over and over 476 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 1: and over again in my life with friends, in my 477 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:53,120 Speaker 1: own life and then with clients is the comparative suffering 478 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:55,800 Speaker 1: part comes back in and we're not out of grieve 479 00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 1: things that aren't really big and huge, like little t 480 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:01,520 Speaker 1: versus big tea traumas, Like we're allowed to be sad 481 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:03,879 Speaker 1: and affected by big tea traumas, but little tea traumas 482 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 1: I should be okay when in reality one thing that 483 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:09,879 Speaker 1: I do believe and it's like weird to think about it, 484 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:12,720 Speaker 1: like I don't know, it makes my brain like do 485 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:16,920 Speaker 1: like some kind of weird gymnastics. But the fact is, 486 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 1: nobody's grief feelings really, but nobody's grief specifically is ever 487 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:24,960 Speaker 1: going to be worse than the grief that you're going 488 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 1: to feel in your life because you don't feel other 489 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 1: people's grief. But you don't, Yeah, you don't make sense 490 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:31,600 Speaker 1: feel other people's anything. Right. It's almost like when you 491 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:33,960 Speaker 1: think about colors, like we all think we see the 492 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:36,440 Speaker 1: same color, but we really have no idea what each 493 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:39,399 Speaker 1: person is seeing. It. Doesn't that blow your mind? Like 494 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:41,719 Speaker 1: I could see the shade of blue over there in 495 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 1: that painting and the shade of blue I'm seeing. I mean, 496 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:46,160 Speaker 1: I guess we could talk about it, and you're saying 497 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:51,440 Speaker 1: you see blue too, but different, different, right, So yeah, 498 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 1: I get it. It is when you think too. That's 499 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,120 Speaker 1: why I'd prefer not to think about it too much, 500 00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 1: but yeah, it is. It's a you'll never know, just 501 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:03,359 Speaker 1: like you you'll never know what colors. People are really saying, 502 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 1: You're never gonna know what anybody is feeling about anything, 503 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,560 Speaker 1: And there's no point, there's literally no point in comparing 504 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:15,240 Speaker 1: your grief with somebody else's. There's no point in it 505 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 1: because they're never going to feel your stuff and you're 506 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 1: never going to feel yours, but you are going to 507 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,680 Speaker 1: feel yours. So if you want that healing, you have 508 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:25,160 Speaker 1: to acknowledge the fact that whatever it is that you're 509 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:29,080 Speaker 1: struggling within this moment is real, and depending on the 510 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:31,359 Speaker 1: different little teas and big teas that we have in 511 00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:34,960 Speaker 1: our life, we're taking it through those filters where someone 512 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 1: might be grieving something like the same thing may happen 513 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:39,840 Speaker 1: to you that happens to me, and we might be 514 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,879 Speaker 1: grieving a totally different based on our life experiences, and 515 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,920 Speaker 1: something might not really affect me as bad as it's 516 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:49,720 Speaker 1: affecting you. But then, yeah, I guess I'm just reiterating that, 517 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:53,360 Speaker 1: like all of our feelings are so relative because we're 518 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 1: I mean even in like my husband and I are 519 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:58,880 Speaker 1: in therapy together and it's like certain things that come 520 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:00,639 Speaker 1: up when we're in there. I don't get it, but 521 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:03,200 Speaker 1: he's literally some of it. It's because it's going through 522 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 1: a filter of like five year old been or if 523 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:08,280 Speaker 1: he doesn't understand what I'm doing, it's going through nine 524 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 1: year old amy. And it's just when when you look 525 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:13,280 Speaker 1: at it that way, then you suddenly have like compassion. 526 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:16,960 Speaker 1: I have a question for you, Yeah, going through the 527 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 1: death of a parent with your sister. I want to 528 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,120 Speaker 1: know what that has been like because you are two 529 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 1: different people. Oh yeah, no, my sister is well. I mean, 530 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:30,679 Speaker 1: this is just very she's representative of body, keeps the score, like, 531 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:35,720 Speaker 1: she keeps things in and processes and such a deep 532 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:39,920 Speaker 1: inner level. She's so inside of herself at all times 533 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:44,159 Speaker 1: that if that even makes sense. But like after my 534 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 1: dad died, she was hospitalized. I think I think it's fine, 535 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,360 Speaker 1: it's fine. She's about to have her own TV show 536 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 1: shout Out, which is really weird and random and like 537 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 1: completely not my sister at all. In fact, that might 538 00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:02,199 Speaker 1: be part of what hospitalized her, because I think she 539 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:05,000 Speaker 1: has so much anxiety. And the last time this happened, 540 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 1: I think was in two thousand and eight teen when 541 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 1: my dad was in the hospital for surgery and he 542 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:10,000 Speaker 1: was supposed to be in and out three to five 543 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 1: days and ended up being an I c U for 544 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 1: six weeks. And because again and our parents were single, 545 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:19,080 Speaker 1: my dad had just gotten divorced, like for the fourth time, 546 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 1: so he didn't have a wife at this time. He 547 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:22,680 Speaker 1: had a girlfriend, but you know, she was just a girlfriend. 548 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:24,480 Speaker 1: But so my sister and I felt like the primary 549 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:28,400 Speaker 1: carrier Virginia again and it was so stressful, I mean, 550 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,680 Speaker 1: it was beyond and she was hospitalized back then, but 551 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 1: and then it happened again after he died. But she 552 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 1: was laying in bed and she literally felt like she 553 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:38,520 Speaker 1: was having a heart attack. She woke her husband up 554 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:40,199 Speaker 1: in the middle of night. She's like, take me to 555 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 1: the hospital. I'm having a heart attack. She told me. 556 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:43,919 Speaker 1: She knew that it was super serious because he was like, well, 557 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 1: let's put clothes on, and she's like, no, get in 558 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:48,119 Speaker 1: the car. She's like, I would never go anywhere in 559 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:52,200 Speaker 1: my pajamas, Like that's how urgent it was to get there. 560 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,200 Speaker 1: And they got there and she thought she was having 561 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:56,680 Speaker 1: a heart attack. She told them I'm having a heart 562 00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 1: attack and they're like, well, okay, no, you're not. She's 563 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,199 Speaker 1: having an anxiety attack. And she was like, well, are 564 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:03,879 Speaker 1: you sure. No, I think there's something go on with 565 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 1: my heart. And they're like, well, we we put some 566 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:08,520 Speaker 1: you know, anxiety meds in your drip and you're doing 567 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:11,040 Speaker 1: better now, right, And she's like, yeah, I know better. 568 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,480 Speaker 1: Everything's fine. But that's just a small example. Have we 569 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:19,960 Speaker 1: processed differently? Like that was her body because she was less, yes, 570 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:22,200 Speaker 1: like she just I don't know why I was saying, 571 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:25,720 Speaker 1: she's inside of herself, but she internalized so much. Yeah, 572 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,159 Speaker 1: I feel like she's comfortable talking with me, Like, I 573 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:29,479 Speaker 1: don't know what it is, but I think she has 574 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 1: more worrying up inside of her that she leads on 575 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:34,679 Speaker 1: because she does seem like she's got it all together, 576 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:37,879 Speaker 1: you know, which being like the little sister, it's kind 577 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:39,600 Speaker 1: of like you always do think your sister has it 578 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:41,440 Speaker 1: all together, and then you learned she doesn't, and you're like, 579 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 1: what what that's a while I heard the first time 580 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:48,200 Speaker 1: her husband told me she like threw a cereal bowl 581 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:52,240 Speaker 1: at him. I was like, what, I get it. Yeah 582 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:55,000 Speaker 1: she did, she did. She admitted it later, But I'm like, 583 00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 1: my sister, the angel, the perfect Christie. She threw a 584 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,520 Speaker 1: cereal at you? Would you do? But now I get it, 585 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 1: Like I've been there to where I've like I've you know, 586 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:09,600 Speaker 1: thrown stuff. Yeah, well I slammed milk. But we're just very, 587 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 1: very different. But yeah, we both lost our dad and 588 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:14,480 Speaker 1: it looked I was struggling in other ways, but like 589 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:18,280 Speaker 1: she was having anxiety tax well, And I think that's 590 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:23,360 Speaker 1: so important to hear because we're so different. Well, and 591 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:26,680 Speaker 1: that just solidifies the fact that there is no right 592 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:29,280 Speaker 1: way to do grief, right, I could look at it like, 593 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, did I not love my dad as much? 594 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:32,960 Speaker 1: Because I'm like, I'm not waking up in the middle. 595 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 1: I'm not having a heart attack, like what's wrong with me? 596 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:37,600 Speaker 1: But I know some people that don't want to talk 597 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:39,280 Speaker 1: about it when you're like why don't you want to 598 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 1: talk about it? Do you not care? And it's like no, 599 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 1: their way of handling and processing in their stages are 600 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 1: going to look different. And that doesn't mean that they 601 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:53,520 Speaker 1: don't feel the same deepness or loss as you. That 602 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:56,720 Speaker 1: just means it looks different, which ends up being like, 603 00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:58,880 Speaker 1: I don't know the statistic on this, but I do 604 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,920 Speaker 1: know that pay parents who agree with a child have 605 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:05,440 Speaker 1: a much higher divorce rate because of that, because grief 606 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 1: can look so different and two people and it becomes 607 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:11,480 Speaker 1: like are you not sad? How how could you move on? 608 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:15,000 Speaker 1: Or like you need to move on when the reality 609 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 1: is both people need to have their own process right, 610 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 1: and both people just need to learn how to carry 611 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 1: their backpacks. Yeah they do. I mean the position of 612 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:27,680 Speaker 1: the backpack Mike might look a little different, right, kind 613 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 1: of like in junior high, when I was in sixth grade, 614 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:31,640 Speaker 1: it was really cool to wear your backpack on, like 615 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:39,080 Speaker 1: the front in junior high. I'm older than you, Cat, 616 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:41,440 Speaker 1: I thought you were going to say, on one shoulder. No, 617 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 1: we did that. There was a season where, um, I'm 618 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:46,720 Speaker 1: sure it was cool on one shoulder. Then it was 619 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:49,240 Speaker 1: like you were in the front that was at a 620 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 1: very special school. And then you know you were at 621 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:54,440 Speaker 1: double strap on the back. But I mean, yeah, so 622 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:56,760 Speaker 1: all that to say, like, however you carry it? And 623 00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:59,320 Speaker 1: then how can you if you do have a partner 624 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 1: or you know, a sibling or someone that you're walking 625 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 1: through the grief process, look like, how can you best 626 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,840 Speaker 1: support the person and not, you know, judge the person 627 00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:11,680 Speaker 1: for not doing it the way you're doing it too, 628 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 1: because it's hard. And then sometimes it's a significant other 629 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:15,840 Speaker 1: that's on the other side of it, Like I remember 630 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:17,760 Speaker 1: my husband being like, I don't even know what to do. 631 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:19,600 Speaker 1: I don't know how to help you. I don't know 632 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,800 Speaker 1: how to be here for you. Being the person trying 633 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 1: to help someone through the grief can be really hard 634 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:27,680 Speaker 1: to and sometimes we don't really know what to say 635 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:29,440 Speaker 1: or do, and we don't want to say or do 636 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:31,960 Speaker 1: the wrong thing, so we just don't really do you 637 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:34,560 Speaker 1: know when and I think I think most of the time, 638 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 1: when it comes down to it, what somebody can do 639 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:40,360 Speaker 1: is just be present and be there. Like there's there's 640 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:42,320 Speaker 1: nothing to say. There's not the right thing to say 641 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 1: to somebody. There's nothing you can say in somebody's grief 642 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 1: that's gonna make it better and all. And I'm thinking 643 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:49,600 Speaker 1: about this and like breakups, but when you're going through 644 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:52,720 Speaker 1: a breakup with somebody and and your friend or somebody 645 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:54,720 Speaker 1: is around and they're trying to make you, they're trying 646 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:57,680 Speaker 1: to make you feel better. One, that's not really the move. 647 00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:00,400 Speaker 1: You can't make somebody feel better. But also of things 648 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,520 Speaker 1: that people know toe say are just really annoying. Right, 649 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 1: So when people we are going through a breakup, things 650 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 1: I've heard is you deserve better than him. It's like 651 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:10,240 Speaker 1: I don't care what I deserved, that's what I wanted, 652 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:12,560 Speaker 1: or a note in death. A lot of times people 653 00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:14,480 Speaker 1: will say, well they're in a better place. Well, sometimes 654 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:15,960 Speaker 1: like I don't want them to be in a better place. 655 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 1: I want them to be here. And so I think 656 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:20,080 Speaker 1: a lot of times we search for what we can 657 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:22,400 Speaker 1: do or what we can say to somebody to help them, 658 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,760 Speaker 1: But really the thing that those people need is just 659 00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:28,880 Speaker 1: your presence. We the grievers need to be able to 660 00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:32,160 Speaker 1: speak and just be heard. That's it, right, literally, No, 661 00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:35,480 Speaker 1: I agree. I mean that's good advice because sometimes I 662 00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:37,480 Speaker 1: think we need to be reminded of that, me included, 663 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:41,080 Speaker 1: because there's like there's nothing you can say. Going back 664 00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:43,280 Speaker 1: to Megan Divine, the grief experts, she had lost her 665 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:49,160 Speaker 1: husband at like thirty three, unexpected, completely blindsided by it, 666 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:52,360 Speaker 1: and that so many people, because she was young, they're like, 667 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:55,280 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, like you're you're gonna meet somebody else 668 00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,120 Speaker 1: and and then it's going to be fine. And she's like, 669 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:00,360 Speaker 1: I'm paraphrasing what she said, but bath that he took. 670 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:03,360 Speaker 1: Mercy's like, shut up, like why why why suddenly are 671 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:05,160 Speaker 1: you already trying to move me on to somebody else 672 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:07,440 Speaker 1: and everything's gonna be fine? Yes, Oh my gosh. Let's 673 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,120 Speaker 1: can we talk about that first section, okay, because in 674 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:15,320 Speaker 1: the stages, the stages are denial, anger, bargaining, depression. I 675 00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:22,560 Speaker 1: know I've been teasing them, so I just say them again, denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance, 676 00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 1: and then there's a bonus stage we'll talk about in 677 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:29,080 Speaker 1: the second, what you're talking about, though, is this depression stage. 678 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:34,120 Speaker 1: And I have a new found love for the depression 679 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:38,000 Speaker 1: stage of grief because I've always looked at that part. 680 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:40,200 Speaker 1: And when we say depression and grief, we're not talking 681 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:44,560 Speaker 1: about clinical depression. We're talking about like deep sadness. Right. Well, 682 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:47,720 Speaker 1: most of the time when somebody is sad, we want 683 00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:49,640 Speaker 1: to cheer them up, That's what we want to do. 684 00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:52,640 Speaker 1: But what we have to look at in in grief 685 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:55,960 Speaker 1: is people are usually in that stage because they have 686 00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:58,960 Speaker 1: lost something. They always are in that stage because they 687 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 1: have lost something that it was very important to them. 688 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:05,120 Speaker 1: But at the same time, people are looking at you 689 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:07,720 Speaker 1: being sad or somebody being depressed or not being able 690 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:09,520 Speaker 1: to get a bed or whatever as unnatural and we 691 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:11,319 Speaker 1: need to get you out of that. We need to 692 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:14,360 Speaker 1: move you out of that. But isn't it weird? Wouldn't 693 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:18,400 Speaker 1: it be weird if you did not experience a level 694 00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:22,279 Speaker 1: of deep sadness after losing something very important to you? Right? 695 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 1: So we have that is it's such a simple but 696 00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:28,879 Speaker 1: important distinction when we are looking at the sadness when 697 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:30,560 Speaker 1: it comes to grief and we want to get people 698 00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:33,399 Speaker 1: out of it. What we're saying, is this is not right, 699 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:36,000 Speaker 1: when in reality it is right. It is right for 700 00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:38,000 Speaker 1: you to be sad. It is so right for you 701 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:41,200 Speaker 1: to be sad. I will credit this to Elizabeth Coogler 702 00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:44,080 Speaker 1: Ross and David Kessler, who wrote the book on Grief 703 00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:47,320 Speaker 1: and Grieving. I believe that just like denial helps and 704 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:51,320 Speaker 1: protects you, so does this depression. And what the sadness 705 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:54,319 Speaker 1: and the deep, the deep sadness and grief does is 706 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:58,200 Speaker 1: it essentially is shutting down your nervous system inside of 707 00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:00,719 Speaker 1: your body and like kind of like lowering all of 708 00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:04,680 Speaker 1: that so that you can adapt to whatever it is 709 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:07,640 Speaker 1: in your life that you actually cannot handle. Right now, 710 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:10,160 Speaker 1: you can't handle it yet. So if I were just 711 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:14,959 Speaker 1: to be my vibrant, bright, shiny person blah blah blah 712 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:17,680 Speaker 1: going about the world, I would not be able to 713 00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:20,120 Speaker 1: handle this new shift in my life. And so my 714 00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:23,120 Speaker 1: my body slows me down so I can adapt to 715 00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:25,640 Speaker 1: this new shift. And once I've adapted, then I will 716 00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:28,239 Speaker 1: move out of that stage. Does that make sense? It does? 717 00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:32,040 Speaker 1: I mean in the slowing down might look different for everybody. 718 00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:35,160 Speaker 1: The you know, I think I was able to get 719 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:38,920 Speaker 1: out of bed after losing my dad, but I honestly 720 00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:41,759 Speaker 1: just wanted to lay around a lot at night. Being 721 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:44,560 Speaker 1: alone at night was hard for me. Just some different 722 00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:48,719 Speaker 1: family circumstances led to like my husband wasn't always with me, 723 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:51,560 Speaker 1: my sister, my family had come in town, they had 724 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 1: all left, and then my friend Mary came and stayed 725 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:56,400 Speaker 1: with me. And I remember going to bed one night 726 00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:58,319 Speaker 1: being like, I don't want to lay here, but I 727 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:00,920 Speaker 1: don't really want to talk. I don't want to do anything, 728 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:03,520 Speaker 1: but I would just go lay and watch nine O 729 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:06,080 Speaker 1: two and O for you know, hours, so your body 730 00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:08,480 Speaker 1: is adjusting. That was okay. So part of you might 731 00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:10,280 Speaker 1: feel like, oh, this is weird or why I shouldn't 732 00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:12,399 Speaker 1: be doing this, or I don't understand, but I don't know, 733 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:15,280 Speaker 1: but I needed that. And I remember texting her, calling 734 00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:17,120 Speaker 1: her she was upstairs in my house and like, can 735 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:18,920 Speaker 1: you be downstairs and just watched and I know what 736 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:20,759 Speaker 1: you want with me, And so she came down and 737 00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:23,359 Speaker 1: we laid and we watched that, and then I went 738 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:26,359 Speaker 1: through there's a lot of seasons and episodes of nine 739 00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:27,920 Speaker 1: O two and oh, in case you did not know, 740 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:32,239 Speaker 1: on Hulu, the original nineties version, and I went through that. 741 00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:34,480 Speaker 1: It took me like two or three months, but there 742 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:38,520 Speaker 1: was something something about it that helped me. I feel 743 00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:41,560 Speaker 1: like that was almost a little bit of depression in 744 00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:46,239 Speaker 1: that way. No offense, Dylan and Kelly and Brenda like, 745 00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:50,480 Speaker 1: but it was soothing to me right Like it was 746 00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:53,920 Speaker 1: something where I was able to just be there and 747 00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:59,680 Speaker 1: not think, but allowed me to rest. It was soothing 748 00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:01,759 Speaker 1: and you needed that in order for you to move 749 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:04,560 Speaker 1: back into your life. And going back to what you're 750 00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:06,759 Speaker 1: saying about Megan being like, why are you trying to 751 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:08,560 Speaker 1: push me through this? Why are you trying to make 752 00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:11,359 Speaker 1: me feel better? Like I think that's what we get 753 00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 1: really confused and grief. It's like, the goal is not 754 00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:17,080 Speaker 1: to make me okay with what happened. In grief, you 755 00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:21,399 Speaker 1: will maybe never probably never be okay with what happened. No, 756 00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:24,719 Speaker 1: it's that's not it. So the goal is how do 757 00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:27,440 Speaker 1: I adapt to this new life? Like how do I 758 00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:30,719 Speaker 1: learn how to live this new life? And that goes 759 00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:34,479 Speaker 1: to this the acceptance stage of grief. Now, I will 760 00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:36,920 Speaker 1: say these aren't going to happen in the order that 761 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:39,799 Speaker 1: I said them necessarily, but when we move into this 762 00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:42,920 Speaker 1: acceptance stage, I think a lot of people have this 763 00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:46,640 Speaker 1: like unconscious like push to not go there because they 764 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:49,280 Speaker 1: think that like acceptance means I'm okay with what happened. 765 00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:52,799 Speaker 1: Acceptance means that that does doesn't bother me anymore. When 766 00:37:53,080 --> 00:38:02,560 Speaker 1: I don't think that's what acceptance is for you? What 767 00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:06,399 Speaker 1: is acceptance? I feel like I've reached acceptance, but I'm 768 00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:10,200 Speaker 1: also now in the middle of melrose Place. That's what 769 00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:15,000 Speaker 1: it means for me. That's exactly it means. I finished, 770 00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:18,600 Speaker 1: I don't you know, And now I'm I'm well acceptance. 771 00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:21,799 Speaker 1: So the other thing, right, still dealing with stuff, You're 772 00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:25,040 Speaker 1: still dealing with other thing with it. Yeah, But even 773 00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,120 Speaker 1: even with my dad, I mean, my dad had just 774 00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:31,279 Speaker 1: moved into my house the day before he went to 775 00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:33,520 Speaker 1: the hospital, and he was supposed to live with me 776 00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:36,520 Speaker 1: in my mind for several years, like we were moving 777 00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:38,240 Speaker 1: him in here to be a part of our life, 778 00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:39,440 Speaker 1: and he was gonna be with us, and they were 779 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:42,480 Speaker 1: gonna be very precious years and he's gonna be able 780 00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:45,160 Speaker 1: to hang out with my kids. And you know, again, 781 00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:47,600 Speaker 1: I had to grieve the loss of that dream and 782 00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:51,319 Speaker 1: expectation with the loss of his physical body. But I 783 00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:54,120 Speaker 1: just set him up in this room and then he 784 00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:57,520 Speaker 1: had like this episode he fell. I was there for 785 00:38:57,560 --> 00:38:59,560 Speaker 1: the whole thing, like we're you know, every time I 786 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:02,480 Speaker 1: walk in my entryway, like I picture him like laying 787 00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:06,200 Speaker 1: there and we call us calling the ambulance, like it 788 00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:09,640 Speaker 1: was a it was very traumatic episode where I'm laying 789 00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:12,200 Speaker 1: with my dad. My husband's calling nine on one. He 790 00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:14,600 Speaker 1: was loaded up in the ambulance and when they were 791 00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:16,239 Speaker 1: about to shut the door, I couldn't go with him 792 00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:19,440 Speaker 1: because of COVID and he was like, I love you, 793 00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:21,320 Speaker 1: He's like, and I was like, I'll see you tomorrow. 794 00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:24,279 Speaker 1: I'll see you tomorrow. And he was like, okay. I'm 795 00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:26,000 Speaker 1: like I'm sure, I'll pick you up, bring you home, 796 00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:27,880 Speaker 1: like this is just a normal thing. He's been in 797 00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:30,880 Speaker 1: out of the hospital since his surgery in two thousand eighteen, 798 00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:33,759 Speaker 1: and I never I never talked to my dad again. 799 00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:36,319 Speaker 1: I got I was updated the next morning that he 800 00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:40,080 Speaker 1: was on life support and he'd been intubated and he's 801 00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:43,319 Speaker 1: on machines and so but even then that you know 802 00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:45,719 Speaker 1: that denial groupd in Like I would call my sister, 803 00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:47,640 Speaker 1: I'm like, you better fly to town. We have another 804 00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:49,920 Speaker 1: half brother and a half sister. For my dad's first marriage, 805 00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:52,040 Speaker 1: and I was like, y'all better come to town. But 806 00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:53,680 Speaker 1: but I mean, I'm sure everything's gonna be fine, but 807 00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:56,880 Speaker 1: the doctors saying y'alls are probably come to down. So 808 00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:00,000 Speaker 1: back to what I was saying about my that happening 809 00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:02,840 Speaker 1: in my house is like almost like walking through my 810 00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:05,840 Speaker 1: house sometimes as a trigger passing that room where he 811 00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:08,680 Speaker 1: was like, I'm already redecorating things because it's either like 812 00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:12,280 Speaker 1: I either invest a little bit in some new paint 813 00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:16,040 Speaker 1: and pillows or something, or I need to move because 814 00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:19,600 Speaker 1: it was so just awful here for a while for me. 815 00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:22,400 Speaker 1: But I mean, how I can't just like move. So 816 00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:24,719 Speaker 1: now I'm actively having to do things to help me. 817 00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:28,319 Speaker 1: I'm still carrying this backpack, right, but me buying a 818 00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:31,520 Speaker 1: few new pieces of furniture and adding some paint and 819 00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:33,719 Speaker 1: even pops of color because my house is very black 820 00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:36,440 Speaker 1: and white. But now that vibe is changing because I'm realizing, 821 00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:39,040 Speaker 1: like I'm changing, things are happening to me, and I 822 00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:41,480 Speaker 1: want little pops of joy in my house now. But 823 00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:44,480 Speaker 1: that's me adjusting my backpack. That's me like being like, 824 00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:45,959 Speaker 1: this is my house and now I need to figure 825 00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:48,640 Speaker 1: out how to survive in my house and those are 826 00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:51,480 Speaker 1: little things that I'm doing, but it's very now I 827 00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:54,359 Speaker 1: can remember the original question back to the acceptance, like 828 00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:58,200 Speaker 1: I have accepted it. I think it's where I was going. 829 00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:01,839 Speaker 1: But welcome to my rabbit hole. Sorry that needed to 830 00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:04,759 Speaker 1: all be said. But but yeah, I think I've accepted it, 831 00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:07,400 Speaker 1: but I but I still encounter daily things where I'm like, 832 00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:11,879 Speaker 1: acceptance doesn't mean it doesn't affect you. Accept So that's 833 00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:16,440 Speaker 1: why accept the reality of what has happened or what 834 00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:20,120 Speaker 1: I'm in. That's all acceptances now, I think it's super 835 00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:24,959 Speaker 1: important and worthwhile to say that. Later there has been 836 00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:27,680 Speaker 1: an addition of another stage of grief which doesn't get 837 00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:31,160 Speaker 1: talked about as much, and that is the meaning making stage. 838 00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:35,000 Speaker 1: And what I think is really interesting is what I 839 00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:38,480 Speaker 1: know about this stage being developed is David Kessler wanted 840 00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:41,600 Speaker 1: to add this after he went through an experience of 841 00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:44,760 Speaker 1: losing a son and he was this like grief expert, 842 00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:48,160 Speaker 1: and thought to himself, these aren't cutting it. This isn't 843 00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:51,320 Speaker 1: describing everything that I am going through, and this isn't 844 00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:53,919 Speaker 1: describing everything that I need. And there's there's something else 845 00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:57,160 Speaker 1: missing that we haven't actually put language to. And it 846 00:41:57,239 --> 00:42:00,919 Speaker 1: was this meaning making stage, and I of this it's 847 00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:03,359 Speaker 1: probably if I had it. I mean I did go 848 00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:06,600 Speaker 1: on like a rampage of how I love depression or 849 00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:08,520 Speaker 1: the stage of pressure. But I love this stage as 850 00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:11,439 Speaker 1: well because it has been probably one of the most 851 00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:15,080 Speaker 1: helpful in my own life. Now when I say meaning making, 852 00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:18,680 Speaker 1: what comes to your mind about what that would actually 853 00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:22,480 Speaker 1: look like. Well, I feel like with my mom and 854 00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:25,040 Speaker 1: I have probably a different story than I would have 855 00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:27,279 Speaker 1: had if if I wasn't on the Bobby Bones Show 856 00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:30,120 Speaker 1: or didn't have the platform that I have because with 857 00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:32,600 Speaker 1: her cancer journey, we were able to turn it into 858 00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:35,440 Speaker 1: a whole movement. And it was while she was alive. 859 00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:38,080 Speaker 1: But she had a prayer at the chapel and at 860 00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:40,520 Speaker 1: M d Anderson, which is not cancer hospital in Houston 861 00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:43,360 Speaker 1: one day when the cancer had returned for the third time, 862 00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:46,399 Speaker 1: and she said, Lord used this for good. It wasn't 863 00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:48,600 Speaker 1: like Lord held me. It was the most selfless prayer ever. 864 00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:51,880 Speaker 1: And I feel like in a way, because we've created 865 00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:54,560 Speaker 1: this whole Pimp and joy line and we have shirts 866 00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:57,920 Speaker 1: and hats and sweatshirts and beanies and all kinds of 867 00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:01,600 Speaker 1: things that in the proceeds go to whatever cause we're 868 00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:03,960 Speaker 1: supporting at the time, and pim and joys all about 869 00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:06,480 Speaker 1: choosing joy for yourself and spreading joy to others, but 870 00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:09,839 Speaker 1: not in a like toxic positivity way, because my mom 871 00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:13,239 Speaker 1: definitely we had very non joyful days, but her overall 872 00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:17,640 Speaker 1: theme throughout her journey was joy and like mostly spreading 873 00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:20,080 Speaker 1: it to others, especially at the hospital. If she would 874 00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:22,320 Speaker 1: see them there alone or something, she would always compliment 875 00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:25,160 Speaker 1: their outfit or whatever. And it's shocking how many people 876 00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:28,600 Speaker 1: are at the hospital alone, like breaks my heart. They 877 00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:31,320 Speaker 1: have to go through like your treatments and like no, 878 00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:33,319 Speaker 1: but I mean it's a lot, I get it. And 879 00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:36,080 Speaker 1: if people have jobs like I mean, Luckily, my sister 880 00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:37,759 Speaker 1: and I were able to tag team and always be there, 881 00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:39,920 Speaker 1: and my mom's friends and even my dad even though 882 00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:41,799 Speaker 1: they were divorced, he stepped in and helped. So my 883 00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:44,960 Speaker 1: mom was never in an appointment alone but anyway, because 884 00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:47,160 Speaker 1: she was about the joy, like my sister and I 885 00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:50,040 Speaker 1: even got joy tattooed on our wrists and our mom's handwriting. 886 00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:53,560 Speaker 1: Joy was like our word. So through that pimp and 887 00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:56,880 Speaker 1: joy being born for me, that's an answer to her prayer. 888 00:43:56,960 --> 00:43:59,560 Speaker 1: Like every time a pimp and Joy shirt or hat 889 00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:02,240 Speaker 1: or whatever, or is sold or I see one someone 890 00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:05,080 Speaker 1: wearing it, because there's thousands and thousands and thousands, like 891 00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:09,040 Speaker 1: over two million dollars has been donated to various causes. 892 00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:12,080 Speaker 1: Because my mom had cancer and because my mom died. 893 00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:15,520 Speaker 1: Now I would rather have my mom here, don't get 894 00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:18,319 Speaker 1: me wrong, but all the good that has come from 895 00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:21,319 Speaker 1: that because we've chosen to make it something that has 896 00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:24,480 Speaker 1: given that meaning. But I get not everybody has that 897 00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:26,600 Speaker 1: type of thing, and I know that if I didn't 898 00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:30,160 Speaker 1: have that platform, it would look very different. But I 899 00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:32,160 Speaker 1: still feel like you can find meeting no matter what. 900 00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:34,879 Speaker 1: Because even with my dad, it wasn't like something as 901 00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:37,319 Speaker 1: big as Pimp and Joy, but because of what we 902 00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:38,840 Speaker 1: were able to do with my mom. We did a 903 00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:41,800 Speaker 1: cab window T for my dad and he would always 904 00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:44,279 Speaker 1: say that he was fluent in Spanish and caino just 905 00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:46,879 Speaker 1: means like that's good and like everything he would say. 906 00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:48,520 Speaker 1: It's like you would tell him if you're like, hey, 907 00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:51,319 Speaker 1: I'm cat, I'm a therapist and da da da, he'd 908 00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:54,920 Speaker 1: be like, Okay, why no, tell me more. And so 909 00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:56,440 Speaker 1: we put it on a T and it was like, 910 00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:58,840 Speaker 1: you know, my dad grew up in rural Texas and 911 00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:01,520 Speaker 1: wouldn't have had an education and if it wasn't for scholarships. 912 00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:03,919 Speaker 1: So we formed a scholarship fund in my dad's name, 913 00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:07,680 Speaker 1: and all the money goes to that scholarship fund. And 914 00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:11,160 Speaker 1: I think, you know, you can just find different ways 915 00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:14,440 Speaker 1: to kind of help keep that person alive or think 916 00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:16,560 Speaker 1: about what they're passionate about. I don't know for sure 917 00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:19,080 Speaker 1: if that's going to do the meaning thing for everybody, 918 00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:21,960 Speaker 1: but for my family, what we've been able to do 919 00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:26,120 Speaker 1: for my mom and then my dad that has helped us, well, yes, 920 00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:30,480 Speaker 1: and I love those stories and I am I'm grateful 921 00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:32,839 Speaker 1: for that stuff as well. And what you also said 922 00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:36,880 Speaker 1: earlier that might not be as aha to you in 923 00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:39,960 Speaker 1: this moment is that you also said that the experience 924 00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:42,520 Speaker 1: you had going through some of that with your mom 925 00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:45,080 Speaker 1: also allowed you to be more present for your friends 926 00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:48,839 Speaker 1: that are going through stuff too, So that's meaning too. Yeah, 927 00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:51,080 Speaker 1: I feel like I'm in a weird position where we 928 00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:54,759 Speaker 1: were able to do something that without the show and 929 00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:56,880 Speaker 1: the platform, I wouldn't have been able to do. So 930 00:45:56,920 --> 00:45:58,760 Speaker 1: I didn't want to paint it as like if someone 931 00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:01,480 Speaker 1: else has a grief story, that's like Oh shoot, well, 932 00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:03,400 Speaker 1: I didn't make T shirts and I didn't do this, 933 00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:05,479 Speaker 1: and I didn't set up a fundraiser and we haven't 934 00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:08,080 Speaker 1: donated any money. Oh no, I'm just making sure that 935 00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:10,760 Speaker 1: I prefaced it with that it would have looked very different. 936 00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:12,799 Speaker 1: But I still think you can find meaning in different ways, 937 00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:17,000 Speaker 1: and that is absolutely away where. Yeah, I feel like 938 00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:19,640 Speaker 1: a lot of things in life that you go through 939 00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:23,959 Speaker 1: you as long as you are willing to go there 940 00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:27,760 Speaker 1: with other people, and if you've been given certain life 941 00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:30,960 Speaker 1: experiences and you've been given the tools like to be 942 00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:35,520 Speaker 1: able to share those with others, even though yet totally 943 00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:37,239 Speaker 1: sucks and it's sad what you had to go through. 944 00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:41,640 Speaker 1: But yeah, that's why, even why I do my podcast 945 00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:44,080 Speaker 1: or even share things on the show that are personal, 946 00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:48,319 Speaker 1: we get personal because we don't want, I guess I'll 947 00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:51,279 Speaker 1: speak for myself, don't want somebody to feel like they're 948 00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:53,360 Speaker 1: alone in anything. And I may not know them. They 949 00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:56,160 Speaker 1: might be listening in their car driving in Boston and 950 00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:58,920 Speaker 1: I'm never going to meet them, but maybe something I 951 00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:02,239 Speaker 1: said one day on their commute made them feel like, 952 00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:05,759 Speaker 1: oh gosh, okay, I'm not I'm not alone in this. Yeah, 953 00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:08,400 Speaker 1: And I think something that I've I'm hearing, and what 954 00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:12,279 Speaker 1: you're saying is the meaning making for you has not 955 00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:17,160 Speaker 1: bypassed the pain part for you. There's both, and that's 956 00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:20,000 Speaker 1: what I would give up like so much. I throw 957 00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:22,160 Speaker 1: all of that out the window to have my mom 958 00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:26,319 Speaker 1: back easy. And I mean, I would hate to take 959 00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:28,680 Speaker 1: away the money that's been donated, but I mean sorry, 960 00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:32,000 Speaker 1: I would just I would rather have her back. And 961 00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:33,799 Speaker 1: that's the other thing. I think a lot of people 962 00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:36,839 Speaker 1: misconstrue or or don't even allow themselves to go there 963 00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:39,520 Speaker 1: because they're like, oh, I don't want to silver line 964 00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:42,719 Speaker 1: a tragedy or I don't want to not honor what 965 00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:45,479 Speaker 1: I've lost, or and that's not what anybody is doing. 966 00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:48,600 Speaker 1: I think that meaning is not is not something that 967 00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:51,919 Speaker 1: we do to get over something. And when we find 968 00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:54,239 Speaker 1: meaning for things, what you're not doing, but I don't 969 00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:58,640 Speaker 1: hear you saying, is this was the meaning of the tragedy, 970 00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:01,160 Speaker 1: this was the meaning of the death. It's you're finding 971 00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:04,040 Speaker 1: meaning and what you're doing after whatever you go through 972 00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:07,680 Speaker 1: your finding meaning and whatever happens after that trauma. Because 973 00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:11,640 Speaker 1: and we've talked about this before, you can be grateful 974 00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:16,360 Speaker 1: for whatever growth happens in your life without being grateful 975 00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:19,200 Speaker 1: for the thing that actually made you do that, growing 976 00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:21,920 Speaker 1: grateful for the growth without being grateful for the thing 977 00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:24,520 Speaker 1: that made you grow. And that's I think what me 978 00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:28,440 Speaker 1: making in grief work is a lot of times circling 979 00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:30,520 Speaker 1: back to you know, at the beginning when I was 980 00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:34,359 Speaker 1: talking about my childhood, I now am super thankful for 981 00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:38,799 Speaker 1: the ways it shaped me into who I am, and 982 00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:41,239 Speaker 1: then the path that led us on the people we met, 983 00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:43,799 Speaker 1: because you know, my dad left and my mom went 984 00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:46,920 Speaker 1: a different direction and made all these other friends at church, 985 00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:50,080 Speaker 1: and then I mean, my sister and I wouldn't have 986 00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:53,040 Speaker 1: met our husbands if that wouldn't have happened. Like there's 987 00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:55,160 Speaker 1: things where you're like, oh, wow, okay, that's kind of 988 00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:57,840 Speaker 1: cool how that worked out. And then we you know, 989 00:48:57,880 --> 00:48:59,800 Speaker 1: my sister's got four kids and I've got two adopted 990 00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:02,319 Speaker 1: it so and then even when you look at my 991 00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:05,080 Speaker 1: dad's marriage is not working out, or you know, you 992 00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:07,799 Speaker 1: never know what the outcome of something is going to be, 993 00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:10,399 Speaker 1: but you look at all the good things that came 994 00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:13,360 Speaker 1: from it. And I have my my half brother and 995 00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:17,439 Speaker 1: my half sister, and you know they have me. They're 996 00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:20,840 Speaker 1: so lucky. But I mean if my dad ever and 997 00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:23,840 Speaker 1: my sister, and if my dad had never divorced their mom, 998 00:49:23,880 --> 00:49:27,160 Speaker 1: you know, back in the sixties or you know whatever. 999 00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:30,160 Speaker 1: It's weird if you think about too, Like if I 1000 00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:32,759 Speaker 1: could rewrite my story, I wouldn't add those in there, 1001 00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:34,799 Speaker 1: Like I don't. I wish I didn't have to go 1002 00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:37,080 Speaker 1: through certain breakups, and I wish I didn't have to 1003 00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:40,880 Speaker 1: go through a really really terrible relationship with exercise and food. 1004 00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:44,680 Speaker 1: And at the same time, those things have allowed me 1005 00:49:44,719 --> 00:49:48,120 Speaker 1: to literally do my life's work without those things. If 1006 00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:50,759 Speaker 1: I have not go if I did not go through 1007 00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:53,000 Speaker 1: any of that stuff, I don't know how I would 1008 00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:55,120 Speaker 1: be a therapist because how can I sit with people 1009 00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:57,359 Speaker 1: when I don't even not that I have didn't go 1010 00:49:57,400 --> 00:50:00,320 Speaker 1: through everything my clients go through. But if I haven't 1011 00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:03,799 Speaker 1: had to like push myself and bring myself through things 1012 00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:06,799 Speaker 1: and acknowledge stuff myself, I wouldn't be able to sit 1013 00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:09,959 Speaker 1: with somebody doing that. I also wouldn't have the heart 1014 00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:13,440 Speaker 1: to specialize in my specialized in. You wouldn't be doing 1015 00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:17,160 Speaker 1: out way right. Yeah, No, and always my passion project. 1016 00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:20,880 Speaker 1: I love that we have outweigh as a tool as 1017 00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:23,680 Speaker 1: a resource for people that might be navigating like what 1018 00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:26,719 Speaker 1: is a needing disorder? What is disordered eating? I don't 1019 00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:30,800 Speaker 1: even know, And just again having real conversations with people 1020 00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:33,360 Speaker 1: that are going through it or experts that know a 1021 00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:36,360 Speaker 1: lot about it and that can offer advice. But also 1022 00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:40,160 Speaker 1: I was thinking too that had I gotten pregnant when 1023 00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:44,320 Speaker 1: I wanted to, then I wouldn't have ever gone to Haiti, 1024 00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:47,240 Speaker 1: and I wouldn't have these two beautiful children from Haiti, 1025 00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:50,120 Speaker 1: and I wouldn't have a Spua with Mary, our company 1026 00:50:50,160 --> 00:50:53,560 Speaker 1: that you know, makes really cool things that helps give 1027 00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:57,120 Speaker 1: back to our partners in Haiti. And yeah, it's like, 1028 00:50:57,640 --> 00:51:00,040 Speaker 1: sure our life would have gone a different route. I 1029 00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:03,360 Speaker 1: would never would have known this life. But I'm like, okay, there, 1030 00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:07,560 Speaker 1: it's just kind of gives the meaning to because that 1031 00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:11,719 Speaker 1: season of not getting pregnant was very hard and difficult 1032 00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:14,600 Speaker 1: and sad. And then now I'm like, okay, yeah, now 1033 00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:17,799 Speaker 1: now I can see some some meaning and what I 1034 00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:21,520 Speaker 1: went through because this is the story that was being written. 1035 00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:24,040 Speaker 1: And it doesn't again, it doesn't take the pain away, 1036 00:51:24,040 --> 00:51:26,960 Speaker 1: but some things I'm still like, oh man, you know, 1037 00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:30,920 Speaker 1: I see people pregnant or I see people breastfeeding. I'm like, well, 1038 00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:33,480 Speaker 1: would that be like? Or I see people like holding 1039 00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:35,640 Speaker 1: their little baby and like being so in love with 1040 00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:37,919 Speaker 1: this thing they created, and I'm like, what's that like? 1041 00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:40,959 Speaker 1: I won't I won't ever know that, And I said, 1042 00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:44,759 Speaker 1: that still makes me sad? Do you question what is 1043 00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:49,000 Speaker 1: it like for you knowing that you have kids that 1044 00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:51,800 Speaker 1: you love and you've had these experiences working with Haiti 1045 00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:55,600 Speaker 1: and creating all this good and that has been such 1046 00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:58,000 Speaker 1: a joyful part of your life. Knowing that you have that, 1047 00:51:58,480 --> 00:52:02,080 Speaker 1: have there been times where you've been holding that and 1048 00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:05,920 Speaker 1: also holding that I don't want to sort of feeling 1049 00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:08,800 Speaker 1: in there for you, but holding something else that doesn't 1050 00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:11,120 Speaker 1: feel as good because life didn't go the way you 1051 00:52:11,120 --> 00:52:13,919 Speaker 1: wanted to go. Well, yeah, I mean I think that 1052 00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:16,600 Speaker 1: it does hit me at different times, or like my 1053 00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:20,719 Speaker 1: daughter will say something like why why did you not 1054 00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:24,239 Speaker 1: ever get pregnant? Or what's wrong with you? Can I 1055 00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:26,799 Speaker 1: have a sister? Or I really want you to have 1056 00:52:26,840 --> 00:52:29,279 Speaker 1: a baby. Like there's just been different comments that they've 1057 00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:31,359 Speaker 1: made being here and being my kids. I've only been 1058 00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:35,080 Speaker 1: their mom three and a half years, but coming from Haiti, 1059 00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:38,160 Speaker 1: there's to this you are not able to get pregnant. 1060 00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:40,879 Speaker 1: There's this belief that like you're cursed in a way. 1061 00:52:41,719 --> 00:52:44,720 Speaker 1: So my daughters implied that, what did I do wrong? 1062 00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:47,799 Speaker 1: But that's not that's something that she just picked up 1063 00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:52,200 Speaker 1: from Haiti and unfortunately what some women actually live under 1064 00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:55,919 Speaker 1: and may honestly truly believe about themselves when really they've 1065 00:52:55,960 --> 00:52:58,279 Speaker 1: done nothing wrong. So I've had to sit with that, 1066 00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:01,520 Speaker 1: which isn't an interesting ing to hear coming from your child, 1067 00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:05,400 Speaker 1: and then processing that. So I mean, I think again, 1068 00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:08,160 Speaker 1: it's a It's something I'm always carrying, and maybe maybe 1069 00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:10,680 Speaker 1: it pokes me. It's in my bag and it pokes 1070 00:53:10,680 --> 00:53:12,520 Speaker 1: me one day, But I just have to figure out 1071 00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:16,160 Speaker 1: how to adjust it. And the reason I ask that 1072 00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:19,640 Speaker 1: is because I want to know really what it might 1073 00:53:19,680 --> 00:53:22,759 Speaker 1: be like if anger does pop up for you. I don't. 1074 00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:25,759 Speaker 1: I don't do it. I don't have anger. No, I 1075 00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:29,279 Speaker 1: mean not, thankfully, I don't. If I do, it could 1076 00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:32,120 Speaker 1: be is it popping up as something else? No, it 1077 00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:36,560 Speaker 1: might not be. Like I guess, my curiosity was around, 1078 00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:41,440 Speaker 1: like do you allow yourself to have feelings of sadness 1079 00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:46,400 Speaker 1: or grief or whatever and also have a family that 1080 00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:49,000 Speaker 1: you love at the same time, Like what is that Like, Okay, 1081 00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:51,479 Speaker 1: I hear what you're saying, and yeah, I do think 1082 00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:56,000 Speaker 1: that it's all possible because I think that's okay. Two, 1083 00:53:56,040 --> 00:53:58,239 Speaker 1: if I was angry about it, I think it would 1084 00:53:58,280 --> 00:54:00,920 Speaker 1: be okay for me to be because I wonder if 1085 00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:03,319 Speaker 1: a lot of people don't allow themselves to do that 1086 00:54:03,719 --> 00:54:05,920 Speaker 1: because it feels like it's canceling something. Now, if I 1087 00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:08,359 Speaker 1: am sad about this, that means I'm not grateful for this, 1088 00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:11,560 Speaker 1: and that's not necessarily true, right, it doesn't. They can 1089 00:54:11,600 --> 00:54:14,800 Speaker 1: live together, their space for both. However you want to 1090 00:54:14,800 --> 00:54:16,839 Speaker 1: look at it, You kind of have to make that 1091 00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:20,680 Speaker 1: room for both or otherwise you're denying a feeling and 1092 00:54:20,719 --> 00:54:22,839 Speaker 1: then that's ultimately not going to be healthy for you 1093 00:54:23,080 --> 00:54:25,080 Speaker 1: because the body keeps the score. Some say, it sounds 1094 00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:29,319 Speaker 1: like you've been to therapy, right, like it's going to 1095 00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:32,360 Speaker 1: show up at some point as something else. So and 1096 00:54:32,440 --> 00:54:34,560 Speaker 1: maybe for me, I need to evaluate. That's why when 1097 00:54:34,560 --> 00:54:36,360 Speaker 1: you said, I was like, well, have I been angry? 1098 00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:39,239 Speaker 1: But it's showing up as something else, and I you know, 1099 00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:41,880 Speaker 1: later it's going to come out with me like you know, 1100 00:54:42,239 --> 00:54:44,840 Speaker 1: throwing peanut butter across the room. I don't know, is 1101 00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:47,120 Speaker 1: that right when I think a lot of times, because 1102 00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:49,560 Speaker 1: I'm all for and I know you are too gratitude, 1103 00:54:49,560 --> 00:54:52,480 Speaker 1: And I think gratitude is an important part of our lives, 1104 00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:54,640 Speaker 1: like we need to pay attention to that. But I 1105 00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:57,279 Speaker 1: think that a lot of times what happens is we 1106 00:54:57,320 --> 00:54:59,719 Speaker 1: think if we have these feelings, and that means that 1107 00:54:59,719 --> 00:55:02,320 Speaker 1: we're not grateful. And the reality is they don't cancel 1108 00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:06,000 Speaker 1: each other out. We can have both. And and I 1109 00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:09,640 Speaker 1: can speak for myself, is I can love my life. 1110 00:55:09,800 --> 00:55:11,520 Speaker 1: I was thinking about this on my way here. I 1111 00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:13,319 Speaker 1: was like, Wow, that's such a good morning, and I'm 1112 00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:15,880 Speaker 1: so proud of like this office that I have and 1113 00:55:15,920 --> 00:55:17,840 Speaker 1: like whatever, and I like worked on some things and 1114 00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:19,200 Speaker 1: I felt good about and I was like, this is 1115 00:55:19,360 --> 00:55:22,200 Speaker 1: freaking awesome. And then I was like talking to I 1116 00:55:22,239 --> 00:55:24,520 Speaker 1: was texting a friend who was talking to me about 1117 00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:27,399 Speaker 1: some boy issues, and she was talking about how her 1118 00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:29,479 Speaker 1: family was trying to set her up with somebody and 1119 00:55:29,960 --> 00:55:33,680 Speaker 1: she feels like they're just throwing anybody on her and whatever. 1120 00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:36,440 Speaker 1: And my response was, I just don't think a lot 1121 00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:39,960 Speaker 1: of people realize that having a relationship or a significant other, 1122 00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:44,080 Speaker 1: refining a partner isn't always somebody's first priority. Other people 1123 00:55:44,120 --> 00:55:46,640 Speaker 1: can enjoy other things more. And I was processing that 1124 00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:48,160 Speaker 1: I was driving my car on the way here, and 1125 00:55:48,239 --> 00:55:50,560 Speaker 1: I was like, that is true. And also, I love 1126 00:55:50,640 --> 00:55:52,799 Speaker 1: my life and I do have sadness for this part, 1127 00:55:53,080 --> 00:55:55,719 Speaker 1: and I'm not going to act like, oh, if I'm 1128 00:55:55,760 --> 00:55:57,560 Speaker 1: sad about this, that means that I don't like this. 1129 00:55:58,080 --> 00:56:01,040 Speaker 1: That's not true. I can have both of them. But 1130 00:56:01,160 --> 00:56:03,160 Speaker 1: that's easier, i think, said than done for a lot 1131 00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:05,600 Speaker 1: of people, because we don't want to be ungrateful and 1132 00:56:05,680 --> 00:56:08,200 Speaker 1: we want to all of that. But you can be 1133 00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:12,799 Speaker 1: sad and grateful, right, I mean, listen, I'm not an expert, sure, 1134 00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:16,920 Speaker 1: but I'm kind of thinking of like a balanced plate, right, 1135 00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:19,560 Speaker 1: whatever that means for different people. But I mean, we 1136 00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:21,840 Speaker 1: do know what a new like. If I'm picturing on 1137 00:56:21,920 --> 00:56:25,880 Speaker 1: my plate, like a for me, what a well rounded 1138 00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:29,080 Speaker 1: meal might look like, and maybe I'd have some meat, 1139 00:56:30,040 --> 00:56:33,520 Speaker 1: and maybe I'd have some potatoes, and maybe i'd have 1140 00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:36,000 Speaker 1: some broccoli. Broccoli is not my favorite thing on there, 1141 00:56:36,640 --> 00:56:39,359 Speaker 1: but it can live on the plate next to the 1142 00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:44,200 Speaker 1: chicken and the potatoes. Again, because I know that there's 1143 00:56:44,280 --> 00:56:46,799 Speaker 1: like nutrients and certain things like I'm going to eat it, 1144 00:56:46,840 --> 00:56:49,799 Speaker 1: but it lives on the plate. You can cut this out. No, 1145 00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:52,960 Speaker 1: I like, don't cut it out. Okay, I don't know. 1146 00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:57,399 Speaker 1: That was so good. Okay, fine, did you pick that up? Yes? 1147 00:56:57,520 --> 00:57:02,720 Speaker 1: I was just picturing the im off. You're not. It's okay, fine. 1148 00:57:03,280 --> 00:57:05,840 Speaker 1: So it's like when you were saying it, I was, 1149 00:57:05,960 --> 00:57:07,719 Speaker 1: I was like, how can we put this to where 1150 00:57:07,719 --> 00:57:10,719 Speaker 1: it's like, yes, they can live together, And it's like, yeah, 1151 00:57:10,719 --> 00:57:12,799 Speaker 1: I don't know. Just picture a meal where it's like 1152 00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:14,799 Speaker 1: you have a favorite thing on the meal that you 1153 00:57:14,840 --> 00:57:16,680 Speaker 1: really love, and you have this other thing that you're 1154 00:57:16,680 --> 00:57:19,800 Speaker 1: probably eating just because you know, Like I mean, I'm 1155 00:57:19,840 --> 00:57:22,040 Speaker 1: not saying force yourself to eat something, but we talked 1156 00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:24,160 Speaker 1: about this on that way, like we have wisdom that 1157 00:57:24,640 --> 00:57:28,200 Speaker 1: tells us like you need foods that have nutrition value 1158 00:57:28,440 --> 00:57:32,280 Speaker 1: that we need. And so for me, it's like, yeah, 1159 00:57:32,360 --> 00:57:34,320 Speaker 1: you can have that all that on the plate together 1160 00:57:34,360 --> 00:57:36,760 Speaker 1: and it can it can exist there together and it 1161 00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:38,400 Speaker 1: can be a meal and you can take a bite 1162 00:57:38,440 --> 00:57:40,680 Speaker 1: of each thing and it's fine. It all goes together. 1163 00:57:40,720 --> 00:57:43,320 Speaker 1: There's room for everything on the plate. That's what I 1164 00:57:43,360 --> 00:57:45,480 Speaker 1: was trying to say. You need to like trademark that 1165 00:57:45,800 --> 00:57:48,560 Speaker 1: no the plate. Oh, but what I was going to 1166 00:57:48,640 --> 00:57:51,520 Speaker 1: say to back to keep bringing up Megan di Vine, 1167 00:57:51,560 --> 00:57:53,440 Speaker 1: but I really honestly did just have her on and 1168 00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:56,320 Speaker 1: she really is very She is a grief consultant, so 1169 00:57:56,360 --> 00:57:59,560 Speaker 1: this is what she does. And she talked about gratitude 1170 00:57:59,560 --> 00:58:02,800 Speaker 1: and grief and she said that sometimes people can try 1171 00:58:02,800 --> 00:58:06,480 Speaker 1: to use gratitude to get over the grief right or 1172 00:58:06,560 --> 00:58:11,000 Speaker 1: to you know, help them push it along. And it's like, no, 1173 00:58:11,680 --> 00:58:14,320 Speaker 1: I want people to stop doing that. Gratitude as a 1174 00:58:14,360 --> 00:58:18,440 Speaker 1: companion to your grief. And so I feel like a 1175 00:58:18,480 --> 00:58:21,480 Speaker 1: lot of things can just be viewed as the companion. 1176 00:58:21,880 --> 00:58:24,640 Speaker 1: The grief is there again, we said, we're not getting 1177 00:58:24,720 --> 00:58:27,080 Speaker 1: rid of it. We're not getting rid of it. So yes, 1178 00:58:27,160 --> 00:58:30,400 Speaker 1: you can have certain tools and things and people and 1179 00:58:30,480 --> 00:58:36,480 Speaker 1: therapists and rituals and routines that are now a companion 1180 00:58:37,200 --> 00:58:40,040 Speaker 1: to your grief. Okay, well, I think that kind of 1181 00:58:40,040 --> 00:58:43,080 Speaker 1: brings us to a good closing point. Um with your 1182 00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:46,240 Speaker 1: new trademark, we just leave people with the plate, leave 1183 00:58:46,480 --> 00:58:49,080 Speaker 1: the plate, the grief plate. No, I'm actually going to 1184 00:58:49,200 --> 00:58:54,320 Speaker 1: use that with client. Really. Yes, I love foods. Yeah, 1185 00:58:54,360 --> 00:58:55,920 Speaker 1: we're going to let people pick out what foods they 1186 00:58:55,960 --> 00:58:58,320 Speaker 1: want to play. Yeah, I don't know why you did 1187 00:58:58,360 --> 00:58:59,600 Speaker 1: the ones that you did, but I don't know to 1188 00:58:59,560 --> 00:59:02,600 Speaker 1: talk about it, um, but thank you so much for 1189 00:59:02,840 --> 00:59:06,040 Speaker 1: having this conversation and being honest and talking about some 1190 00:59:06,120 --> 00:59:08,080 Speaker 1: of the things that you've been through in your life, 1191 00:59:08,080 --> 00:59:11,560 Speaker 1: because I think that is super helpful for people. I 1192 00:59:11,560 --> 00:59:14,040 Speaker 1: would like to encourage anybody who is kind of going 1193 00:59:14,080 --> 00:59:16,680 Speaker 1: through some of this themselves, which is probably everybody because 1194 00:59:16,680 --> 00:59:19,320 Speaker 1: we all have our own grief processes. I want to 1195 00:59:19,360 --> 00:59:22,560 Speaker 1: shout out the book I've been referencing again on Grief 1196 00:59:22,600 --> 00:59:25,840 Speaker 1: and Grieving by Elizabeth Coogler Ross and David Kessler. And 1197 00:59:25,880 --> 00:59:28,680 Speaker 1: then I want Amy, can you say again the name 1198 00:59:28,680 --> 00:59:32,880 Speaker 1: of that workbook? Oh? Yeah, so Megan Divine. She has 1199 00:59:32,920 --> 00:59:34,760 Speaker 1: another book on grief as she put out a few 1200 00:59:34,800 --> 00:59:37,000 Speaker 1: years ago, but the most recent things she put out 1201 00:59:37,080 --> 00:59:39,160 Speaker 1: was a Journal for Grief. And I think that this 1202 00:59:39,280 --> 00:59:41,680 Speaker 1: is just a great tool and it's called how to 1203 00:59:41,800 --> 00:59:45,760 Speaker 1: Carry What Can't Be Fixed, And there's different exercises in there, 1204 00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:49,080 Speaker 1: and you can like take pen to paper, there's different 1205 00:59:49,120 --> 00:59:52,840 Speaker 1: activities that can help you process and I don't know, 1206 00:59:52,880 --> 00:59:56,680 Speaker 1: I think it's very well done, so I highly recommend it. Okay, awesome, Well, 1207 00:59:56,680 --> 00:59:59,240 Speaker 1: thank you for that, and thank you guys for listening. 1208 00:59:59,600 --> 01:00:03,160 Speaker 1: If you feel so inclined and you have thirty extra 1209 01:00:03,200 --> 01:00:05,520 Speaker 1: seconds in your life today, we would love it if 1210 01:00:05,560 --> 01:00:07,360 Speaker 1: you would just scroll down to the bottom of this 1211 01:00:07,480 --> 01:00:10,640 Speaker 1: and give us a nice little you know rating, hopefully 1212 01:00:10,680 --> 01:00:15,760 Speaker 1: it's around five stars, and follow us on instead of subscribe. 1213 01:00:15,760 --> 01:00:18,280 Speaker 1: It's now follow button for anybody who is new to 1214 01:00:18,720 --> 01:00:20,680 Speaker 1: the changes that have been made on Apple, and then 1215 01:00:20,680 --> 01:00:23,800 Speaker 1: follow us on Instagram at You Need Therapy Podcast, I'm 1216 01:00:23,920 --> 01:00:26,880 Speaker 1: at cat dot de fata and Amy is at Radio 1217 01:00:26,920 --> 01:00:29,360 Speaker 1: Amy and I will talk to you guys on Wednesday 1218 01:00:29,400 --> 01:00:31,920 Speaker 1: for some couch talks. If you have some grief questions, 1219 01:00:32,080 --> 01:00:34,480 Speaker 1: shoot him over to me at Catherine at you Need 1220 01:00:34,520 --> 01:00:37,840 Speaker 1: Therapy podcast dot com. Yeah, follow me at radio any 1221 01:00:38,160 --> 01:00:45,920 Speaker 1: just kidding, Okay, bye bye