WEBVTT - A Discussion Part I 0:00:04.360 --> 0:00:07.680 Moscow police are investigating a homicide on King Rhode. 0:00:08.920 --> 0:00:12.120 Cause and manner of death was homicide by stabbing. 0:00:12.560 --> 0:00:13.240 This is terrible. 0:00:13.280 --> 0:00:14.040 It's a bloodbath. 0:00:20.720 --> 0:00:25.760 This is the Idaho Massacre. A production of KT Studios 0:00:25.880 --> 0:00:32.360 and iHeartRadio, Episode eleven, A discussion with reporter Chris Bargo. 0:00:33.880 --> 0:00:37.559 I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at KT Studios, with 0:00:37.600 --> 0:00:44.800 Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, and Connor Powell. In this roundtable 0:00:44.840 --> 0:00:49.040 episode recorded on Wednesday, July twenty six, the producer Stephanie 0:00:49.080 --> 0:00:52.640 Lydecker and Connor Powell are joined by Inside Edition reporter 0:00:52.840 --> 0:00:56.640 Chris Bargo to discuss Brian Coberger's alibi and his defense 0:00:56.720 --> 0:01:03.520 team's efforts to discredit the DNA evidence against him. Here 0:01:03.560 --> 0:01:04.160 they are now. 0:01:05.560 --> 0:01:08.399 So I'm here now with Chris and Connor, who have 0:01:08.480 --> 0:01:12.040 been contributing on the podcast really since the very beginning, 0:01:12.200 --> 0:01:15.160 and Chris specifically has been knee deep in this case 0:01:15.240 --> 0:01:18.679 since day one. It really was our first contact of 0:01:19.080 --> 0:01:22.480 interaction when it came to covering this case, because you 0:01:22.520 --> 0:01:24.400 were on the front lines of it from day one. 0:01:24.640 --> 0:01:27.200 And of course Connor has been not only putting to 0:01:27.200 --> 0:01:30.120 this together as a producer but also as a contributor 0:01:30.480 --> 0:01:33.600 and executive producer. So let's start with the biggest piece 0:01:33.600 --> 0:01:38.320 of information that happened just now essentially, which really does 0:01:38.800 --> 0:01:42.480 shine a very different light potentially on the entire case, 0:01:42.760 --> 0:01:47.319 which is this notion that Brian Coberger's attorney is saying 0:01:47.360 --> 0:01:49.720 that he in fact had an alibi. 0:01:50.200 --> 0:01:52.520 Yeah, that's right. It was pretty big news, kind of 0:01:52.520 --> 0:01:55.400 the biggest news I've gotten so far. For the past month. Really, 0:01:55.480 --> 0:01:58.160 the defense has been slowly sort of poking holes in 0:01:58.200 --> 0:02:00.360 the prosecution's case, and we know that the problem. SCUSHA 0:02:00.400 --> 0:02:02.640 has been very eager to get this alibi, what the 0:02:02.640 --> 0:02:04.360 albi was going to be, and they've been waiting, and 0:02:04.400 --> 0:02:06.960 then kind of out of nowhere, it was filed in 0:02:06.960 --> 0:02:10.000 the middle of the day. And it's an interesting filing 0:02:10.240 --> 0:02:14.480 because it is not concrete. What it says is we 0:02:14.880 --> 0:02:17.680 potentially have an alibi, and if we did have an alibi, 0:02:17.760 --> 0:02:18.960 this is what it would be, and this is how 0:02:19.000 --> 0:02:21.800 we go about proving it. They're very heavily suggesting is 0:02:21.840 --> 0:02:24.359 the fact that Brian Coberger was not present at the 0:02:24.360 --> 0:02:26.080 scene of the murders at the time of the murders, 0:02:26.280 --> 0:02:29.160 that he was somewhere else and they are suggesting that 0:02:29.200 --> 0:02:32.000 there will be witnesses who, if called to testify, will 0:02:32.000 --> 0:02:35.000 be able to back up this claim. It's not a definitive, 0:02:35.200 --> 0:02:37.600 concrete thing, but this is not the sort of attorney 0:02:37.639 --> 0:02:39.440 who's really kind of into game playing or stuff like 0:02:39.440 --> 0:02:41.120 that would be very odd for her to sort of 0:02:41.280 --> 0:02:43.639 be pulling any sort of stunt. It seemed very unlike 0:02:43.639 --> 0:02:46.600 her nature. So this is a good chance this is 0:02:46.639 --> 0:02:47.960 going to be the alby they're going to go for, 0:02:48.080 --> 0:02:50.040 and if we remember, the good thing about this alibi 0:02:50.120 --> 0:02:52.800 is the fact that the tracking of Brian Koberger's cell 0:02:52.800 --> 0:02:54.880 phone on the night of the murders has some impulment 0:02:55.000 --> 0:02:58.359 Washington at quarter of three and then about twenty miles 0:02:58.360 --> 0:03:01.560 south of Moscow at just before five am, so he's 0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:03.760 never in Moscow the night of the murders according to 0:03:03.800 --> 0:03:05.920 a cell phone. Obviously, there's footage of a car, but 0:03:05.919 --> 0:03:08.200 they've already been disputing that the car is his, so 0:03:08.680 --> 0:03:10.639 it makes sense with the information we have so far, 0:03:10.800 --> 0:03:13.560 it's certainly something that there's not immediately a way to 0:03:13.600 --> 0:03:15.839 disregard it or say that it's not true. So it'll 0:03:15.880 --> 0:03:17.360 be interesting to see where they take it from here. 0:03:17.520 --> 0:03:21.160 Do we have any indication on who the potential witnesses 0:03:21.320 --> 0:03:21.799 could be. 0:03:22.360 --> 0:03:24.560 This is another interesting thing about this filing. There's a 0:03:25.040 --> 0:03:26.959 suggesting in there that one of the witnesses for the 0:03:27.040 --> 0:03:31.840 state for the prosecution could actually confirm this claim. Now, 0:03:32.120 --> 0:03:34.760 that would more likely maybe be someone from let's say 0:03:34.800 --> 0:03:36.880 his cell phone company or someone who would be confirming 0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:38.640 one of the facts that he wasn't in Moscow according 0:03:38.680 --> 0:03:40.839 to their records, but also it could mean that someone 0:03:40.880 --> 0:03:43.360 might actually have information about him legitimately being somewhere else. 0:03:43.400 --> 0:03:45.960 It's really open because they're not being very specific. 0:03:46.280 --> 0:03:50.360 This really does change the course of the entire case potentially, 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:53.160 And of course when I immediately spoke to Connor about it, 0:03:53.400 --> 0:03:56.760 you had a very different reaction to the filing. 0:03:57.200 --> 0:03:59.200 I'm going to pour some cold water on this because 0:03:59.360 --> 0:04:03.400 of course Brian Coberger's defense team is going to say 0:04:03.800 --> 0:04:05.840 he's not guilty. That's the only thing they can say. 0:04:05.840 --> 0:04:07.960 They can't say anything else, so they have to say 0:04:07.960 --> 0:04:10.040 this also, and I think this is the key thing. 0:04:10.320 --> 0:04:14.600 Under Idaho law, the defense must notify the prosecution of 0:04:14.640 --> 0:04:18.839 a possibility of an alibi defense, And as I understand 0:04:19.120 --> 0:04:22.039 listening to other commentators reading about this, is that this 0:04:22.200 --> 0:04:26.279 finally merely preserves that right without committing to it. It 0:04:26.320 --> 0:04:28.320 doesn't say that they have an alibi. It says that 0:04:28.400 --> 0:04:31.240 they are possibly going to use it in trial, and 0:04:31.279 --> 0:04:33.920 that they're going to continue investigating, and that they might 0:04:34.040 --> 0:04:38.760 actually challenge through cross examination some of the prosecution's witnesses 0:04:38.880 --> 0:04:43.159 as a possible avenue to presenting this alibi. So they're 0:04:43.200 --> 0:04:45.640 not actually saying they have an alibi. They're not actually 0:04:45.720 --> 0:04:47.800 saying that they're going to use it. They're saying they're 0:04:47.800 --> 0:04:49.880 going to preserve the right to use it at trial, 0:04:50.040 --> 0:04:52.760 and that's required under Idaho law. So that's different than 0:04:52.839 --> 0:04:55.880 some states, right, so they had to provide at least this. 0:04:56.120 --> 0:04:58.400 I think the other thing that's really important is this 0:04:58.440 --> 0:05:02.280 defense team is very quiet, very tight lip They provided nothing. 0:05:02.279 --> 0:05:04.599 They haven't pushed back on anything. The only thing we've 0:05:04.640 --> 0:05:08.000 ever heard is from his original defense lawyer in Pennsylvania 0:05:08.080 --> 0:05:10.960 who said, Brian's excited to, you know, be exonerated, right, 0:05:11.000 --> 0:05:14.320 Like that's the closest we've heard from anything. So they've 0:05:14.400 --> 0:05:16.919 basically taken a hands off approach and said we're not 0:05:16.960 --> 0:05:19.080 going to provide anything. We're gonna do what's required, but 0:05:19.120 --> 0:05:21.240 we're not going to provide anything. I think if they 0:05:21.240 --> 0:05:25.640 had an air tight, one hundred percent, locked down, concrete alibi, 0:05:26.000 --> 0:05:28.480 they would be presenting that right now, not only because 0:05:28.480 --> 0:05:30.839 it would be good for their case in the court 0:05:30.839 --> 0:05:34.919 of public opinion. If he's one hundred percent innocent, defense 0:05:34.960 --> 0:05:37.560 attorneys like to get that information out there. Why would 0:05:37.560 --> 0:05:40.599 you wait anywhere from three months to six months to 0:05:40.720 --> 0:05:42.919 nine months to twelve months to go to trial with 0:05:42.960 --> 0:05:45.920 somebody that you have concrete proof evidence he was in 0:05:45.960 --> 0:05:48.120 Florida during the time of this. Here's no way he 0:05:48.160 --> 0:05:50.760 could have done it right like, So whatever alibi they 0:05:50.839 --> 0:05:54.000 might have, I think the suggestion is probably it's not 0:05:54.120 --> 0:05:56.200 air tight. And it's not to say it's not an alibi. 0:05:56.320 --> 0:05:58.040 It's not to say that it won't work at trial. 0:05:58.279 --> 0:06:00.680 It's not to say that the prosecution has sewn up. 0:06:00.800 --> 0:06:03.440 But I do think that if they had an air tight, 0:06:03.480 --> 0:06:06.120 one hundred percent definitive twelve people saw him in Florida 0:06:06.160 --> 0:06:08.080 at the time of the murders, they would be waving 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:10.440 that out right now. And they're not doing that. It's 0:06:10.480 --> 0:06:12.359 not to say that they won't produce that at some point, 0:06:12.480 --> 0:06:14.520 but they're not doing it today. And I think that's 0:06:14.560 --> 0:06:17.280 a tells you a lot about this alibi filing. 0:06:17.440 --> 0:06:20.880 But that doesn't change the fact that his DNA was 0:06:21.000 --> 0:06:23.680 in fact found on the sheath, right, So even if 0:06:23.680 --> 0:06:25.479 he did have an alibi, they would still have to 0:06:25.520 --> 0:06:29.800 explain away why the DNA testing points to him to 0:06:29.839 --> 0:06:33.599 such a degree. Have you heard anything Chris about that? 0:06:33.800 --> 0:06:36.280 Those are two very big things, right. They're being DNA 0:06:36.360 --> 0:06:39.599 at the crime scene of Brian, his own personal DNA, 0:06:39.720 --> 0:06:43.320 not just the DNA of his father's, versus him literally 0:06:43.320 --> 0:06:44.000 not being there. 0:06:44.240 --> 0:06:46.480 I mean, I think that the DNA is the weakest 0:06:46.520 --> 0:06:48.640 part of this case because remember, it's just reasonable doubt 0:06:48.640 --> 0:06:50.640 to get off. You have DNA of three other people 0:06:50.680 --> 0:06:52.560 at the scene we know now, and the chain of 0:06:52.560 --> 0:06:54.839 command of the DNA is very very confusing. We have 0:06:54.920 --> 0:06:56.440 it going to the local lab, then we have the 0:06:56.440 --> 0:06:58.479 Idaho State Police sending it to a national lab, the 0:06:58.520 --> 0:07:00.559 Udo State Police suddenly deciding they're not going to follow 0:07:00.560 --> 0:07:02.440 through a but halfway through the testing process and handing 0:07:02.440 --> 0:07:04.400 it over to the FBI. The FBI taking it from 0:07:04.440 --> 0:07:07.159 that point over. And then the interesting thing is that 0:07:07.200 --> 0:07:10.000 the prosecutors are now hesitant to hand over that evidence 0:07:10.040 --> 0:07:12.640 and they're claiming it's because it's federal FBI evidence and 0:07:12.680 --> 0:07:14.720 the FBI only gave them a name know everything else 0:07:14.760 --> 0:07:16.040 with it, so they don't have to hand over everything 0:07:16.040 --> 0:07:17.400 else because they're saying all they got from the FBI 0:07:17.480 --> 0:07:19.240 was a name, not the sort of whole genealogy of 0:07:19.280 --> 0:07:21.680 it all, which is very interesting. And if a jury 0:07:21.720 --> 0:07:23.720 hears this along with the fact that there's the DNA 0:07:23.760 --> 0:07:25.680 of other people, it's not going to be that hard. 0:07:26.040 --> 0:07:27.880 I mean, I think the classic example is the OJ case, 0:07:27.880 --> 0:07:29.400 where they thought DNA was a slam dunk, and then 0:07:29.440 --> 0:07:31.520 as they're explaining it to people, it's really it's a 0:07:31.640 --> 0:07:34.640 very scientific, difficult thing to understand, and it's easy to 0:07:34.680 --> 0:07:36.640 explain away at times because it's just, you know, it's 0:07:36.680 --> 0:07:39.240 a very small sample on a knife a knife sheet, 0:07:39.360 --> 0:07:41.880 rather that a lot of people probably handled potentially. I'm 0:07:41.880 --> 0:07:43.280 sure that the crime scene is going to be talked 0:07:43.280 --> 0:07:45.240 about a lot because these are local officers who've never 0:07:45.240 --> 0:07:47.160 really been on a murder scene and how it was treated, 0:07:47.320 --> 0:07:48.960 So there's going to be a lot of ways are 0:07:48.960 --> 0:07:50.480 going to poke holes in this. I think it's really 0:07:50.480 --> 0:07:53.680 one of the weakest parts of the prosecution's sort of case, 0:07:53.720 --> 0:07:54.960 and I think they're aware of that too, which is 0:07:55.000 --> 0:07:57.040 why they're so hesitant to really turn over any of 0:07:57.040 --> 0:07:58.440 the sort of DNA information that they have. 0:07:58.800 --> 0:08:01.480 We've talked about this little bit offline in the past. 0:08:01.560 --> 0:08:05.760 Is like they're going to make the prosecution prove every 0:08:05.800 --> 0:08:08.840 single piece of evidence right, and they're going to try 0:08:08.840 --> 0:08:12.000 to muddle that and make it as confusing as possible 0:08:12.120 --> 0:08:14.360 because they only need one person. I don't think the 0:08:14.480 --> 0:08:17.080 DNA in terms of what was swiped from his mouth 0:08:17.120 --> 0:08:21.240 with the bucal swab and the knife evidence, DNA is 0:08:21.440 --> 0:08:23.800 difficult for a jury to understand. It's not nineteen ninety 0:08:23.800 --> 0:08:26.480 four anymore or way past oj Simpson in terms of 0:08:26.480 --> 0:08:30.120 the understanding of DNA, but that whole bridge between there. 0:08:30.480 --> 0:08:34.600 They're clearly going to make this really difficult for everybody understand, 0:08:34.720 --> 0:08:37.040 and they're going to try to even get that DNA 0:08:37.120 --> 0:08:39.880 thrown out because of the way they arrive to it. 0:08:39.920 --> 0:08:42.080 And I think if we see anything that is a 0:08:42.080 --> 0:08:45.280 strategy that's appearing right now, it's to reserve the right 0:08:45.360 --> 0:08:48.880 to challenge everything right and to push back on everything. 0:08:48.920 --> 0:08:51.600 And I think Chris is right like that DNA becomes 0:08:51.760 --> 0:08:55.600 really problematic for them if the judge or something gets 0:08:55.640 --> 0:08:57.680 thrown out in terms of that process. 0:08:57.640 --> 0:09:01.000 Chris, have you heard any more rumblings from the family. 0:09:01.320 --> 0:09:04.280 Obviously there's a gag order in the family has been 0:09:04.360 --> 0:09:06.440 asked not to speak out, and we of course are 0:09:06.480 --> 0:09:09.320 being very respectful of that. But in your circles as 0:09:09.360 --> 0:09:14.000 a journalist, have you heard anything regarding the family the Coburgers. 0:09:14.040 --> 0:09:14.480 Correct. 0:09:15.080 --> 0:09:18.800 I had heard rumblings that the sisters were really just 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:20.640 praying he was going to do a plea deal because 0:09:20.640 --> 0:09:22.360 they were just like, our parents can't go through this. 0:09:22.520 --> 0:09:24.800 Our parents can't like this is just not something that 0:09:24.800 --> 0:09:26.400 they're ready for. By all accounts, these are the two 0:09:26.480 --> 0:09:28.880 nicest people, you know, Like the mother's lovely nice, was 0:09:28.920 --> 0:09:31.160 a substitute teacher. The father's is a great guy who 0:09:31.200 --> 0:09:32.439 was like really just trying to go to bat for 0:09:32.480 --> 0:09:33.800 ast son all the time and get him to make 0:09:33.800 --> 0:09:35.640 friends and do things social and get them out there. 0:09:35.640 --> 0:09:37.720 And they just feel like it's just such a devastating 0:09:37.760 --> 0:09:39.520 thing for them. And you know, I think you will 0:09:39.679 --> 0:09:41.120 say that really in the way that the media is 0:09:41.160 --> 0:09:42.720 not really hounding them, they're kind of leaving them alone. 0:09:43.000 --> 0:09:45.200 It's just it's a really, it's a really sad story 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:47.319 for these two parents who by all accounts did everything 0:09:47.360 --> 0:09:48.960 for their son. I mean, we were going through financial 0:09:49.000 --> 0:09:51.360 records recently, and every time Brian entered a new stage 0:09:51.360 --> 0:09:53.160 of his education, looks like they were taking up mortgages 0:09:53.200 --> 0:09:55.040 on their home for amount of whey that would seem 0:09:55.040 --> 0:09:57.280 to suggest they're basically funding his education, doing everything they 0:09:57.280 --> 0:10:00.000 can for this kid, and it's just devastating. 0:10:00.120 --> 0:10:04.559 Then it's so well said, and obviously for the victims' families, 0:10:04.960 --> 0:10:08.079 so devastating, but yeah, to your point, even in the 0:10:08.160 --> 0:10:11.280 spirit of making this podcast, since the first day, we 0:10:11.400 --> 0:10:13.880 really wanted to sort of take a step back and 0:10:13.960 --> 0:10:16.760 look at his upbringing to see what were the triggers, 0:10:16.800 --> 0:10:20.479 what were the warning signs. And despite anything we've discussed, 0:10:20.960 --> 0:10:23.080 nobody has a bad thing to say about the parents 0:10:23.160 --> 0:10:26.480 and his sisters, and you know what an annihilating moment 0:10:26.679 --> 0:10:30.319 for them and a weight to carry. It's really unimaginable 0:10:30.320 --> 0:10:33.240 and it's every parent's nightmare, and our hearts genuinely go 0:10:33.320 --> 0:10:34.440 out to them. 0:10:34.800 --> 0:10:36.920 Yeah, I mean, in many ways, they're also losing a child, 0:10:37.000 --> 0:10:39.200 you know, obviously not as horrible as the victims families, 0:10:39.200 --> 0:10:40.400 but I mean their son is probably going to be 0:10:40.480 --> 0:10:42.360 away for the rest of his life. So that's it. 0:10:42.960 --> 0:10:45.520 We've seen this a little bit with the BTK killer 0:10:45.720 --> 0:10:49.160 and his family, and again the weight that has to 0:10:49.200 --> 0:10:53.280 be carried moving forward must be unbearable. We've just again 0:10:53.320 --> 0:10:56.440 really tried to keep it very respectful in terms of 0:10:56.480 --> 0:10:59.080 their privacy during this difficult time, as well as with 0:10:59.120 --> 0:11:02.600 the family members the victims. Again, everyone's gearing up for 0:11:02.640 --> 0:11:05.880 what could be a trial. So far nothing is pointing 0:11:05.880 --> 0:11:08.920 to the idea of a plea deal, but who knows 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:10.920 what's to come. This is a bit a little bit 0:11:10.960 --> 0:11:14.280 of a change of conversation though at the bare minimum, 0:11:14.600 --> 0:11:18.800 I understand the DNA genealogy, etc. That being air quotes 0:11:18.840 --> 0:11:21.960 potentially junk science and that can be explained away. But 0:11:22.040 --> 0:11:25.640 an alibi to me seems like a pretty big bomb 0:11:26.280 --> 0:11:27.920 that they would have to be able to back up. 0:11:27.920 --> 0:11:30.160 But Connor, to your point, they're just making a suggestion 0:11:30.280 --> 0:11:32.600 that they may want to go that route. 0:11:33.120 --> 0:11:35.199 Yeah, I mean, and they have to. I mean again, 0:11:35.280 --> 0:11:38.960 the defense is setting up to challenge everything, and they 0:11:39.000 --> 0:11:41.280 have to. I mean that legally they're required to provide 0:11:41.320 --> 0:11:44.559 the best defense, you know that they can to Brian Coberger, and. 0:11:44.480 --> 0:11:46.600 They did file at the eleventh hour. Two right, they 0:11:46.640 --> 0:11:48.240 filed that, like literally at the eleventh hour. 0:11:48.600 --> 0:11:50.280 And also I had seen something and I'm not one 0:11:50.360 --> 0:11:52.680 hundred percent sure and clear on this, but I had 0:11:52.720 --> 0:11:55.120 seen something. That their best chance of getting the DNA 0:11:55.640 --> 0:11:58.080 thrown out is if they can prove that he was 0:11:58.080 --> 0:12:00.680 somewhere else, right, because all of a sudden, the sample 0:12:00.720 --> 0:12:03.280 size of the DNA, which is really small on the 0:12:03.360 --> 0:12:05.920 nice sheaf, If he's somewhere else and there's people who 0:12:05.960 --> 0:12:08.240 can say it, well, the judge can be like, well, obviously, 0:12:08.240 --> 0:12:10.559 if twelve people saw him somewhere else at this period 0:12:10.600 --> 0:12:13.199 of time, he probably wasn't holding that knife and oh 0:12:13.240 --> 0:12:15.520 and oh he bought a similar knife and returned it 0:12:15.559 --> 0:12:18.000 on Amazon or something. They have to be able to 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:21.319 explain that away in the pre trial hearings. So they're 0:12:21.360 --> 0:12:24.280 setting up that possibility, but they've not committed to anything. 0:12:24.320 --> 0:12:26.120 And part of it is is that there's still very 0:12:26.160 --> 0:12:29.160 early stages in terms of building the defense. But until 0:12:29.200 --> 0:12:32.440 they get that DNA evidence in the paperwork from the 0:12:32.480 --> 0:12:36.040 prosecution and the FBI and the orthroom labs, you know, 0:12:36.080 --> 0:12:38.040 they don't really know what they're working with. And I 0:12:38.080 --> 0:12:40.760 think that's really it's a crucial part of this entire process. 0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:44.319 Until they get access to all of that information, they 0:12:44.360 --> 0:12:45.800 don't know what their defense is going to be. I 0:12:45.800 --> 0:12:46.400 wouldn't think. 0:12:46.880 --> 0:12:48.160 I mean, there's also the fact that I think that 0:12:48.240 --> 0:12:49.920 the one thing that we all kind of keep forgetting 0:12:49.960 --> 0:12:51.640 is the fact that the number of people who shoot 0:12:51.679 --> 0:12:53.839 a stranger is low. The number people who shoot multiple 0:12:53.840 --> 0:12:55.640 strangers is low. The number of people who stab a 0:12:55.679 --> 0:12:57.920 stranger is so low. The number of people who stab four 0:12:57.920 --> 0:12:59.760 strangers in their home. I don't think there's another case 0:12:59.760 --> 0:13:02.480 of or seen where someone stabbed for strangers to death 0:13:02.480 --> 0:13:04.520 in a home and we stilln't have any link between 0:13:04.600 --> 0:13:05.960 him and the victims. And that is going to be 0:13:06.000 --> 0:13:08.360 a I mean, it just doesn't happen. It just really 0:13:08.440 --> 0:13:10.440 does not happen if there has to be some level of, 0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:12.200 you know, knowing the person, and we haven't seen any 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:15.200 sort of relationship really that they've brought out or proven 0:13:15.240 --> 0:13:17.560 the prosecution at all. So that's going to be a 0:13:17.600 --> 0:13:19.600 really hard thing for people to sort of comprehend. 0:13:19.600 --> 0:13:20.439 I thing too. 0:13:23.080 --> 0:13:25.120 Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in 0:13:25.160 --> 0:13:25.520 a moment. 0:13:33.559 --> 0:13:36.360 I was just speaking to a criminologist this morning. Actually 0:13:36.440 --> 0:13:40.320 talking about this case, and he said, just echoing what 0:13:40.400 --> 0:13:42.760 you said, Chris, it is so rare for a person 0:13:42.800 --> 0:13:46.920 to go from a regular civilian to. 0:13:46.960 --> 0:13:47.880 A mass murderer. 0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:51.800 Like there's usually a tipping point, there is typically something 0:13:51.840 --> 0:13:54.800 that happens prior. There's typically some sort of an event 0:13:54.920 --> 0:13:58.120 that's the test run of it all. And we really 0:13:58.200 --> 0:14:01.160 have looked at this very close to see has there 0:14:01.240 --> 0:14:05.320 been a history here outside of being bullied or you know, 0:14:05.360 --> 0:14:08.280 we've talked about his childhood and his high school and 0:14:08.480 --> 0:14:11.240 you know, his education, et cetera. But we haven't been 0:14:11.280 --> 0:14:14.360 able to find the one thing that would suggest, oh, 0:14:14.400 --> 0:14:18.120 maybe he struck prior, there's some sort of link between 0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:21.520 a previous event that led to maybe this big event, 0:14:21.800 --> 0:14:25.680 because likely, just looking at his profile, according to this criminologist, 0:14:25.920 --> 0:14:28.240 he may have become a serial killer had he gotten 0:14:28.280 --> 0:14:31.600 away with this, had he not been apprehended. Again, assuming 0:14:31.640 --> 0:14:34.080 he is guilty, he is saying he is innocent and 0:14:34.120 --> 0:14:37.119 we are not looking to convict him here on this podcast. 0:14:37.440 --> 0:14:40.080 But all that to be said, we haven't actually found 0:14:40.160 --> 0:14:43.240 that pre smoking gun. Chris, have you heard anything new 0:14:43.520 --> 0:14:47.880 about any other situations that would maybe point to a 0:14:48.040 --> 0:14:49.960 history or something as a pre event. 0:14:51.120 --> 0:14:54.160 We know that some law enforcement agencies in Pennsylvania are 0:14:54.200 --> 0:14:57.000 looking into things other than murders. We know that there's 0:14:57.080 --> 0:15:00.480 other illegal activities that they are looking into and seeing 0:15:00.480 --> 0:15:02.800 if maybe there's a pattern of that prior. They won't 0:15:02.800 --> 0:15:04.920 be specific, but I mean, there are other crimes that 0:15:05.120 --> 0:15:07.480 men sometimes commit, like it could be robbery, it could 0:15:07.520 --> 0:15:09.400 be burglary, it could be sexual assault. We don't really 0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:10.880 know for sure. We just know that a few of 0:15:10.880 --> 0:15:12.960 those local departments had been looking into that and they've 0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:15.240 not said anything since. So it could be maybe he 0:15:15.360 --> 0:15:17.520 was in you know, committing some other crime and got 0:15:17.560 --> 0:15:20.160 caught or who knows, but that's certainly something that they've 0:15:20.160 --> 0:15:23.040 been looking into, because you're right, it is incredibly weird too. 0:15:23.080 --> 0:15:26.040 Suddenly not only murder for people, if he is the 0:15:26.040 --> 0:15:28.720 actual killer, but to do it in roughly ten minutes 0:15:29.000 --> 0:15:32.200 and make an exit is that doesn't seem like sort 0:15:32.200 --> 0:15:34.720 of a first time thing. It's and he's when he 0:15:34.760 --> 0:15:37.240 seen exiting the home by the eyewitness. The killer. They 0:15:37.240 --> 0:15:39.200 don't know any blood or anything on them. They just say, 0:15:39.200 --> 0:15:41.880 you know, they're average build whatever, And obviously they didn't 0:15:41.880 --> 0:15:44.120 look in such a state that the person immediately called police. 0:15:44.160 --> 0:15:45.640 So you would think that if he looked like he'd 0:15:45.800 --> 0:15:47.760 just murdered for people, whoever the person was, the roommate 0:15:47.760 --> 0:15:49.160 would call the police. But she just thought it looked 0:15:49.160 --> 0:15:51.200 like a regular person. So someone who did it quickly 0:15:51.240 --> 0:15:54.240 and looked like nothing had just happened, that's very bizarre 0:15:54.280 --> 0:15:55.720 for a first time killer. 0:15:56.560 --> 0:15:57.960 I do think one of the things that about this 0:15:58.040 --> 0:16:01.400 case it's really interesting, is he obviously is accused of 0:16:01.480 --> 0:16:03.840 killing four people. If he is the killer, we don't 0:16:03.840 --> 0:16:05.960 know if his intent was to kill four people, right, 0:16:06.120 --> 0:16:08.840 So was he tiptoeing in thinking he was going to 0:16:08.960 --> 0:16:11.600 kill one person? Did he end up finding two people 0:16:11.680 --> 0:16:13.920 in bed? Did he end up finding two people downstairs? 0:16:14.000 --> 0:16:16.040 Did he didn't imagine? Did he get scared and not 0:16:16.120 --> 0:16:17.680 kill other people in the house because we know there 0:16:17.720 --> 0:16:20.200 are other two roommates, Like, that's all the sort of 0:16:20.320 --> 0:16:23.520 question about did he go from zero to one hundred 0:16:23.520 --> 0:16:26.040 in terms of killing people in one night or did 0:16:26.040 --> 0:16:27.800 he think he was tiptoeing in If he is in 0:16:27.840 --> 0:16:29.880 fact guilty, that's just one of the many things we 0:16:29.920 --> 0:16:31.440 don't know. And I think one of the things that's 0:16:31.440 --> 0:16:34.200 so frustrating about this case is there's a lot of 0:16:34.240 --> 0:16:37.360 holes in what the prosecution is saying, and maybe some 0:16:37.400 --> 0:16:39.840 of it will be able to you know, we'll understand 0:16:39.840 --> 0:16:42.800 a trial, But as of right now, the basic information 0:16:42.920 --> 0:16:45.840 of the case hasn't moved significantly in months. 0:16:46.280 --> 0:16:50.400 And is it possible that maybe he had an emotional 0:16:50.400 --> 0:16:54.120 connection in his mind, perhaps only with one of the victims, 0:16:54.360 --> 0:16:58.360 had a knife allegedly snuck in the house, Maybe was 0:16:58.400 --> 0:17:01.600 going to sexually assault one of them or have a 0:17:01.680 --> 0:17:05.320 visit with one of them, and that escalated and that 0:17:05.560 --> 0:17:08.639 turned to mass murder, when maybe that wasn't the initial intent. 0:17:08.920 --> 0:17:11.440 But again, it feels as though it would have been messier. 0:17:11.480 --> 0:17:13.560 The walls were literally bleeding of blood. 0:17:14.040 --> 0:17:18.240 How could that not be bigger in terms of the 0:17:18.240 --> 0:17:20.840 information that we have right now. And it's a little 0:17:20.880 --> 0:17:23.280 scary in a way because if Brian Coburger isn't the 0:17:23.280 --> 0:17:25.160 one who did it, then who did and that means 0:17:25.160 --> 0:17:26.600 that person is still at large. 0:17:26.920 --> 0:17:27.119 You know. 0:17:27.160 --> 0:17:30.080 One of the comparisons or non comparisons to the piked 0:17:30.080 --> 0:17:33.080 In massacre in the loss of the Rodent family is 0:17:33.119 --> 0:17:35.320 it didn't really feel at least when we started on 0:17:35.320 --> 0:17:37.600 that case and we went there in person, it didn't 0:17:37.640 --> 0:17:42.160 feel as though, oh my goodness, the Wagners were probably 0:17:42.240 --> 0:17:45.120 killing everybody in the town, or that they had previously 0:17:45.160 --> 0:17:49.000 been murdering people, or that it wasn't very specific to 0:17:49.200 --> 0:17:52.880 one particular family, and that the Wagners at the time 0:17:52.920 --> 0:17:55.639 when we started were claiming their innocence. Still they're the 0:17:55.760 --> 0:17:58.680 accused who have Now three of the four of them 0:17:58.840 --> 0:18:01.320 have either played or have been found guilty. 0:18:01.520 --> 0:18:03.080 There's still one more trial to go. 0:18:03.440 --> 0:18:06.160 But this is a little different in that number one, 0:18:06.320 --> 0:18:09.280 if he didn't do it, this guy is getting tried 0:18:09.280 --> 0:18:11.720 in the press time and time again. How could he 0:18:11.760 --> 0:18:15.920 possibly have a fair trial? And moreover, then that means 0:18:15.920 --> 0:18:18.560 there's somebody at large that's a danger to society. 0:18:18.880 --> 0:18:21.120 And if he did do it, why. 0:18:20.920 --> 0:18:23.800 Are they not throwing some of this information out or 0:18:23.840 --> 0:18:26.320 at least showing a little bit of the smoking gun, 0:18:26.440 --> 0:18:28.439