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Speaker 1: Moscow police are investigating a homicide on King Rhode.

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Speaker 2: Cause and manner of death was homicide by stabbing.

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Speaker 3: This is terrible.

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Speaker 4: It's a bloodbath.

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Speaker 1: This is the Idaho Massacre. A production of KT Studios

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Speaker 1: and iHeartRadio, Episode eleven, A discussion with reporter Chris Bargo.

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Speaker 1: I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at KT Studios, with

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Speaker 1: Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, and Connor Powell. In this roundtable

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Speaker 1: episode recorded on Wednesday, July twenty six, the producer Stephanie

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Speaker 1: Lydecker and Connor Powell are joined by Inside Edition reporter

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Speaker 1: Chris Bargo to discuss Brian Coberger's alibi and his defense

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Speaker 1: team's efforts to discredit the DNA evidence against him. Here

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Speaker 1: they are now.

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Speaker 4: So I'm here now with Chris and Connor, who have

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Speaker 4: been contributing on the podcast really since the very beginning,

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Speaker 4: and Chris specifically has been knee deep in this case

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Speaker 4: since day one. It really was our first contact of

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Speaker 4: interaction when it came to covering this case, because you

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Speaker 4: were on the front lines of it from day one.

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Speaker 4: And of course Connor has been not only putting to

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Speaker 4: this together as a producer but also as a contributor

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Speaker 4: and executive producer. So let's start with the biggest piece

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Speaker 4: of information that happened just now essentially, which really does

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Speaker 4: shine a very different light potentially on the entire case,

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Speaker 4: which is this notion that Brian Coberger's attorney is saying

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Speaker 4: that he in fact had an alibi.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, that's right. It was pretty big news, kind of

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Speaker 5: the biggest news I've gotten so far. For the past month. Really,

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Speaker 5: the defense has been slowly sort of poking holes in

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Speaker 5: the prosecution's case, and we know that the problem. SCUSHA

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Speaker 5: has been very eager to get this alibi, what the

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Speaker 5: albi was going to be, and they've been waiting, and

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Speaker 5: then kind of out of nowhere, it was filed in

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Speaker 5: the middle of the day. And it's an interesting filing

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Speaker 5: because it is not concrete. What it says is we

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Speaker 5: potentially have an alibi, and if we did have an alibi,

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Speaker 5: this is what it would be, and this is how

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Speaker 5: we go about proving it. They're very heavily suggesting is

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Speaker 5: the fact that Brian Coberger was not present at the

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Speaker 5: scene of the murders at the time of the murders,

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Speaker 5: that he was somewhere else and they are suggesting that

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Speaker 5: there will be witnesses who, if called to testify, will

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Speaker 5: be able to back up this claim. It's not a definitive,

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Speaker 5: concrete thing, but this is not the sort of attorney

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Speaker 5: who's really kind of into game playing or stuff like

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Speaker 5: that would be very odd for her to sort of

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Speaker 5: be pulling any sort of stunt. It seemed very unlike

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Speaker 5: her nature. So this is a good chance this is

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Speaker 5: going to be the alby they're going to go for,

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Speaker 5: and if we remember, the good thing about this alibi

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Speaker 5: is the fact that the tracking of Brian Koberger's cell

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Speaker 5: phone on the night of the murders has some impulment

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Speaker 5: Washington at quarter of three and then about twenty miles

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Speaker 5: south of Moscow at just before five am, so he's

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Speaker 5: never in Moscow the night of the murders according to

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Speaker 5: a cell phone. Obviously, there's footage of a car, but

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Speaker 5: they've already been disputing that the car is his, so

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Speaker 5: it makes sense with the information we have so far,

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Speaker 5: it's certainly something that there's not immediately a way to

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Speaker 5: disregard it or say that it's not true. So it'll

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Speaker 5: be interesting to see where they take it from here.

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Speaker 4: Do we have any indication on who the potential witnesses

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Speaker 4: could be.

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Speaker 5: This is another interesting thing about this filing. There's a

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Speaker 5: suggesting in there that one of the witnesses for the

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Speaker 5: state for the prosecution could actually confirm this claim. Now,

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Speaker 5: that would more likely maybe be someone from let's say

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Speaker 5: his cell phone company or someone who would be confirming

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Speaker 5: one of the facts that he wasn't in Moscow according

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Speaker 5: to their records, but also it could mean that someone

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Speaker 5: might actually have information about him legitimately being somewhere else.

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Speaker 5: It's really open because they're not being very specific.

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Speaker 4: This really does change the course of the entire case potentially,

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Speaker 4: And of course when I immediately spoke to Connor about it,

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Speaker 4: you had a very different reaction to the filing.

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Speaker 6: I'm going to pour some cold water on this because

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Speaker 6: of course Brian Coberger's defense team is going to say

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Speaker 6: he's not guilty. That's the only thing they can say.

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Speaker 6: They can't say anything else, so they have to say

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Speaker 6: this also, and I think this is the key thing.

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Speaker 6: Under Idaho law, the defense must notify the prosecution of

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Speaker 6: a possibility of an alibi defense, And as I understand

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Speaker 6: listening to other commentators reading about this, is that this

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Speaker 6: finally merely preserves that right without committing to it. It

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Speaker 6: doesn't say that they have an alibi. It says that

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Speaker 6: they are possibly going to use it in trial, and

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Speaker 6: that they're going to continue investigating, and that they might

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Speaker 6: actually challenge through cross examination some of the prosecution's witnesses

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Speaker 6: as a possible avenue to presenting this alibi. So they're

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Speaker 6: not actually saying they have an alibi. They're not actually

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Speaker 6: saying that they're going to use it. They're saying they're

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Speaker 6: going to preserve the right to use it at trial,

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Speaker 6: and that's required under Idaho law. So that's different than

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Speaker 6: some states, right, so they had to provide at least this.

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Speaker 6: I think the other thing that's really important is this

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Speaker 6: defense team is very quiet, very tight lip They provided nothing.

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Speaker 6: They haven't pushed back on anything. The only thing we've

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Speaker 6: ever heard is from his original defense lawyer in Pennsylvania

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Speaker 6: who said, Brian's excited to, you know, be exonerated, right,

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Speaker 6: Like that's the closest we've heard from anything. So they've

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Speaker 6: basically taken a hands off approach and said we're not

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Speaker 6: going to provide anything. We're gonna do what's required, but

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Speaker 6: we're not going to provide anything. I think if they

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Speaker 6: had an air tight, one hundred percent, locked down, concrete alibi,

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Speaker 6: they would be presenting that right now, not only because

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Speaker 6: it would be good for their case in the court

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Speaker 6: of public opinion. If he's one hundred percent innocent, defense

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Speaker 6: attorneys like to get that information out there. Why would

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Speaker 6: you wait anywhere from three months to six months to

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Speaker 6: nine months to twelve months to go to trial with

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Speaker 6: somebody that you have concrete proof evidence he was in

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Speaker 6: Florida during the time of this. Here's no way he

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Speaker 6: could have done it right like, So whatever alibi they

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Speaker 6: might have, I think the suggestion is probably it's not

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Speaker 6: air tight. And it's not to say it's not an alibi.

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Speaker 6: It's not to say that it won't work at trial.

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Speaker 6: It's not to say that the prosecution has sewn up.

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Speaker 6: But I do think that if they had an air tight,

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Speaker 6: one hundred percent definitive twelve people saw him in Florida

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Speaker 6: at the time of the murders, they would be waving

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Speaker 6: that out right now. And they're not doing that. It's

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Speaker 6: not to say that they won't produce that at some point,

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Speaker 6: but they're not doing it today. And I think that's

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Speaker 6: a tells you a lot about this alibi filing.

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Speaker 4: But that doesn't change the fact that his DNA was

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Speaker 4: in fact found on the sheath, right, So even if

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Speaker 4: he did have an alibi, they would still have to

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Speaker 4: explain away why the DNA testing points to him to

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Speaker 4: such a degree. Have you heard anything Chris about that?

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Speaker 4: Those are two very big things, right. They're being DNA

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Speaker 4: at the crime scene of Brian, his own personal DNA,

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Speaker 4: not just the DNA of his father's, versus him literally

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Speaker 4: not being there.

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Speaker 5: I mean, I think that the DNA is the weakest

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Speaker 5: part of this case because remember, it's just reasonable doubt

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Speaker 5: to get off. You have DNA of three other people

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Speaker 5: at the scene we know now, and the chain of

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Speaker 5: command of the DNA is very very confusing. We have

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Speaker 5: it going to the local lab, then we have the

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Speaker 5: Idaho State Police sending it to a national lab, the

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Speaker 5: Udo State Police suddenly deciding they're not going to follow

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Speaker 5: through a but halfway through the testing process and handing

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Speaker 5: it over to the FBI. The FBI taking it from

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Speaker 5: that point over. And then the interesting thing is that

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Speaker 5: the prosecutors are now hesitant to hand over that evidence

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Speaker 5: and they're claiming it's because it's federal FBI evidence and

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Speaker 5: the FBI only gave them a name know everything else

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Speaker 5: with it, so they don't have to hand over everything

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Speaker 5: else because they're saying all they got from the FBI

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Speaker 5: was a name, not the sort of whole genealogy of

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Speaker 5: it all, which is very interesting. And if a jury

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Speaker 5: hears this along with the fact that there's the DNA

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Speaker 5: of other people, it's not going to be that hard.

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Speaker 5: I mean, I think the classic example is the OJ case,

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Speaker 5: where they thought DNA was a slam dunk, and then

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Speaker 5: as they're explaining it to people, it's really it's a

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Speaker 5: very scientific, difficult thing to understand, and it's easy to

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Speaker 5: explain away at times because it's just, you know, it's

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Speaker 5: a very small sample on a knife a knife sheet,

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Speaker 5: rather that a lot of people probably handled potentially. I'm

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Speaker 5: sure that the crime scene is going to be talked

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Speaker 5: about a lot because these are local officers who've never

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Speaker 5: really been on a murder scene and how it was treated,

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Speaker 5: So there's going to be a lot of ways are

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Speaker 5: going to poke holes in this. I think it's really

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Speaker 5: one of the weakest parts of the prosecution's sort of case,

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Speaker 5: and I think they're aware of that too, which is

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Speaker 5: why they're so hesitant to really turn over any of

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Speaker 5: the sort of DNA information that they have.

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Speaker 6: We've talked about this little bit offline in the past.

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Speaker 6: Is like they're going to make the prosecution prove every

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Speaker 6: single piece of evidence right, and they're going to try

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Speaker 6: to muddle that and make it as confusing as possible

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Speaker 6: because they only need one person. I don't think the

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Speaker 6: DNA in terms of what was swiped from his mouth

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Speaker 6: with the bucal swab and the knife evidence, DNA is

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Speaker 6: difficult for a jury to understand. It's not nineteen ninety

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Speaker 6: four anymore or way past oj Simpson in terms of

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Speaker 6: the understanding of DNA, but that whole bridge between there.

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Speaker 6: They're clearly going to make this really difficult for everybody understand,

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Speaker 6: and they're going to try to even get that DNA

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Speaker 6: thrown out because of the way they arrive to it.

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Speaker 6: And I think if we see anything that is a

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Speaker 6: strategy that's appearing right now, it's to reserve the right

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Speaker 6: to challenge everything right and to push back on everything.

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Speaker 6: And I think Chris is right like that DNA becomes

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Speaker 6: really problematic for them if the judge or something gets

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Speaker 6: thrown out in terms of that process.

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Speaker 4: Chris, have you heard any more rumblings from the family.

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Speaker 4: Obviously there's a gag order in the family has been

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Speaker 4: asked not to speak out, and we of course are

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Speaker 4: being very respectful of that. But in your circles as

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Speaker 4: a journalist, have you heard anything regarding the family the Coburgers.

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Speaker 3: Correct.

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Speaker 5: I had heard rumblings that the sisters were really just

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Speaker 5: praying he was going to do a plea deal because

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Speaker 5: they were just like, our parents can't go through this.

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Speaker 5: Our parents can't like this is just not something that

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Speaker 5: they're ready for. By all accounts, these are the two

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Speaker 5: nicest people, you know, Like the mother's lovely nice, was

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Speaker 5: a substitute teacher. The father's is a great guy who

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Speaker 5: was like really just trying to go to bat for

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Speaker 5: ast son all the time and get him to make

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Speaker 5: friends and do things social and get them out there.

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Speaker 5: And they just feel like it's just such a devastating

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Speaker 5: thing for them. And you know, I think you will

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Speaker 5: say that really in the way that the media is

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Speaker 5: not really hounding them, they're kind of leaving them alone.

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Speaker 5: It's just it's a really, it's a really sad story

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Speaker 5: for these two parents who by all accounts did everything

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Speaker 5: for their son. I mean, we were going through financial

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Speaker 5: records recently, and every time Brian entered a new stage

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Speaker 5: of his education, looks like they were taking up mortgages

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Speaker 5: on their home for amount of whey that would seem

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Speaker 5: to suggest they're basically funding his education, doing everything they

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Speaker 5: can for this kid, and it's just devastating.

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Speaker 4: Then it's so well said, and obviously for the victims' families,

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Speaker 4: so devastating, but yeah, to your point, even in the

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Speaker 4: spirit of making this podcast, since the first day, we

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Speaker 4: really wanted to sort of take a step back and

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Speaker 4: look at his upbringing to see what were the triggers,

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Speaker 4: what were the warning signs. And despite anything we've discussed,

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Speaker 4: nobody has a bad thing to say about the parents

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Speaker 4: and his sisters, and you know what an annihilating moment

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Speaker 4: for them and a weight to carry. It's really unimaginable

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Speaker 4: and it's every parent's nightmare, and our hearts genuinely go

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Speaker 4: out to them.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, in many ways, they're also losing a child,

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Speaker 5: you know, obviously not as horrible as the victims families,

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Speaker 5: but I mean their son is probably going to be

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Speaker 5: away for the rest of his life. So that's it.

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Speaker 4: We've seen this a little bit with the BTK killer

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Speaker 4: and his family, and again the weight that has to

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Speaker 4: be carried moving forward must be unbearable. We've just again

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Speaker 4: really tried to keep it very respectful in terms of

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Speaker 4: their privacy during this difficult time, as well as with

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Speaker 4: the family members the victims. Again, everyone's gearing up for

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Speaker 4: what could be a trial. So far nothing is pointing

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Speaker 4: to the idea of a plea deal, but who knows

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Speaker 4: what's to come. This is a bit a little bit

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Speaker 4: of a change of conversation though at the bare minimum,

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Speaker 4: I understand the DNA genealogy, etc. That being air quotes

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Speaker 4: potentially junk science and that can be explained away. But

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Speaker 4: an alibi to me seems like a pretty big bomb

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Speaker 4: that they would have to be able to back up.

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Speaker 4: But Connor, to your point, they're just making a suggestion

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Speaker 4: that they may want to go that route.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, and they have to. I mean again,

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Speaker 6: the defense is setting up to challenge everything, and they

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Speaker 6: have to. I mean that legally they're required to provide

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Speaker 6: the best defense, you know that they can to Brian Coberger, and.

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Speaker 5: They did file at the eleventh hour. Two right, they

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Speaker 5: filed that, like literally at the eleventh hour.

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Speaker 6: And also I had seen something and I'm not one

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Speaker 6: hundred percent sure and clear on this, but I had

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Speaker 6: seen something. That their best chance of getting the DNA

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Speaker 6: thrown out is if they can prove that he was

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Speaker 6: somewhere else, right, because all of a sudden, the sample

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Speaker 6: size of the DNA, which is really small on the

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Speaker 6: nice sheaf, If he's somewhere else and there's people who

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Speaker 6: can say it, well, the judge can be like, well, obviously,

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Speaker 6: if twelve people saw him somewhere else at this period

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Speaker 6: of time, he probably wasn't holding that knife and oh

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Speaker 6: and oh he bought a similar knife and returned it

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Speaker 6: on Amazon or something. They have to be able to

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Speaker 6: explain that away in the pre trial hearings. So they're

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Speaker 6: setting up that possibility, but they've not committed to anything.

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Speaker 6: And part of it is is that there's still very

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Speaker 6: early stages in terms of building the defense. But until

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Speaker 6: they get that DNA evidence in the paperwork from the

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Speaker 6: prosecution and the FBI and the orthroom labs, you know,

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Speaker 6: they don't really know what they're working with. And I

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Speaker 6: think that's really it's a crucial part of this entire process.

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Speaker 6: Until they get access to all of that information, they

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Speaker 6: don't know what their defense is going to be. I

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Speaker 6: wouldn't think.

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Speaker 5: I mean, there's also the fact that I think that

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Speaker 5: the one thing that we all kind of keep forgetting

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Speaker 5: is the fact that the number of people who shoot

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Speaker 5: a stranger is low. The number people who shoot multiple

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Speaker 5: strangers is low. The number of people who stab a

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Speaker 5: stranger is so low. The number of people who stab four

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Speaker 5: strangers in their home. I don't think there's another case

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Speaker 5: of or seen where someone stabbed for strangers to death

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Speaker 5: in a home and we stilln't have any link between

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Speaker 5: him and the victims. And that is going to be

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Speaker 5: a I mean, it just doesn't happen. It just really

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Speaker 5: does not happen if there has to be some level of,

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Speaker 5: you know, knowing the person, and we haven't seen any

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Speaker 5: sort of relationship really that they've brought out or proven

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Speaker 5: the prosecution at all. So that's going to be a

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Speaker 5: really hard thing for people to sort of comprehend.

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Speaker 6: I thing too.

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Speaker 1: Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in

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Speaker 1: a moment.

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Speaker 4: I was just speaking to a criminologist this morning. Actually

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Speaker 4: talking about this case, and he said, just echoing what

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Speaker 4: you said, Chris, it is so rare for a person

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Speaker 4: to go from a regular civilian to.

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Speaker 3: A mass murderer.

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Speaker 4: Like there's usually a tipping point, there is typically something

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Speaker 4: that happens prior. There's typically some sort of an event

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Speaker 4: that's the test run of it all. And we really

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Speaker 4: have looked at this very close to see has there

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Speaker 4: been a history here outside of being bullied or you know,

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Speaker 4: we've talked about his childhood and his high school and

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Speaker 4: you know, his education, et cetera. But we haven't been

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Speaker 4: able to find the one thing that would suggest, oh,

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Speaker 4: maybe he struck prior, there's some sort of link between

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Speaker 4: a previous event that led to maybe this big event,

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Speaker 4: because likely, just looking at his profile, according to this criminologist,

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Speaker 4: he may have become a serial killer had he gotten

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Speaker 4: away with this, had he not been apprehended. Again, assuming

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Speaker 4: he is guilty, he is saying he is innocent and

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Speaker 4: we are not looking to convict him here on this podcast.

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Speaker 4: But all that to be said, we haven't actually found

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Speaker 4: that pre smoking gun. Chris, have you heard anything new

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Speaker 4: about any other situations that would maybe point to a

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Speaker 4: history or something as a pre event.

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Speaker 5: We know that some law enforcement agencies in Pennsylvania are

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Speaker 5: looking into things other than murders. We know that there's

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Speaker 5: other illegal activities that they are looking into and seeing

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Speaker 5: if maybe there's a pattern of that prior. They won't

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Speaker 5: be specific, but I mean, there are other crimes that

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Speaker 5: men sometimes commit, like it could be robbery, it could

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Speaker 5: be burglary, it could be sexual assault. We don't really

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Speaker 5: know for sure. We just know that a few of

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Speaker 5: those local departments had been looking into that and they've

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Speaker 5: not said anything since. So it could be maybe he

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Speaker 5: was in you know, committing some other crime and got

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Speaker 5: caught or who knows, but that's certainly something that they've

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Speaker 5: been looking into, because you're right, it is incredibly weird too.

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Speaker 5: Suddenly not only murder for people, if he is the

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Speaker 5: actual killer, but to do it in roughly ten minutes

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Speaker 5: and make an exit is that doesn't seem like sort

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Speaker 5: of a first time thing. It's and he's when he

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Speaker 5: seen exiting the home by the eyewitness. The killer. They

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Speaker 5: don't know any blood or anything on them. They just say,

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Speaker 5: you know, they're average build whatever, And obviously they didn't

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Speaker 5: look in such a state that the person immediately called police.

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Speaker 5: So you would think that if he looked like he'd

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Speaker 5: just murdered for people, whoever the person was, the roommate

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Speaker 5: would call the police. But she just thought it looked

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Speaker 5: like a regular person. So someone who did it quickly

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Speaker 5: and looked like nothing had just happened, that's very bizarre

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Speaker 5: for a first time killer.

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Speaker 6: I do think one of the things that about this

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Speaker 6: case it's really interesting, is he obviously is accused of

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Speaker 6: killing four people. If he is the killer, we don't

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Speaker 6: know if his intent was to kill four people, right,

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Speaker 6: So was he tiptoeing in thinking he was going to

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Speaker 6: kill one person? Did he end up finding two people

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Speaker 6: in bed? Did he end up finding two people downstairs?

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Speaker 6: Did he didn't imagine? Did he get scared and not

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Speaker 6: kill other people in the house because we know there

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Speaker 6: are other two roommates, Like, that's all the sort of

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Speaker 6: question about did he go from zero to one hundred

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Speaker 6: in terms of killing people in one night or did

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Speaker 6: he think he was tiptoeing in If he is in

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Speaker 6: fact guilty, that's just one of the many things we

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Speaker 6: don't know. And I think one of the things that's

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Speaker 6: so frustrating about this case is there's a lot of

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Speaker 6: holes in what the prosecution is saying, and maybe some

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Speaker 6: of it will be able to you know, we'll understand

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Speaker 6: a trial, But as of right now, the basic information

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Speaker 6: of the case hasn't moved significantly in months.

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Speaker 4: And is it possible that maybe he had an emotional

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Speaker 4: connection in his mind, perhaps only with one of the victims,

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Speaker 4: had a knife allegedly snuck in the house, Maybe was

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Speaker 4: going to sexually assault one of them or have a

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Speaker 4: visit with one of them, and that escalated and that

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Speaker 4: turned to mass murder, when maybe that wasn't the initial intent.

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Speaker 4: But again, it feels as though it would have been messier.

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Speaker 3: The walls were literally bleeding of blood.

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Speaker 4: How could that not be bigger in terms of the

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Speaker 4: information that we have right now. And it's a little

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Speaker 4: scary in a way because if Brian Coburger isn't the

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Speaker 4: one who did it, then who did and that means

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Speaker 4: that person is still at large.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 4: One of the comparisons or non comparisons to the piked

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Speaker 4: In massacre in the loss of the Rodent family is

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Speaker 4: it didn't really feel at least when we started on

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Speaker 4: that case and we went there in person, it didn't

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Speaker 4: feel as though, oh my goodness, the Wagners were probably

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Speaker 4: killing everybody in the town, or that they had previously

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Speaker 4: been murdering people, or that it wasn't very specific to

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Speaker 4: one particular family, and that the Wagners at the time

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Speaker 4: when we started were claiming their innocence. Still they're the

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Speaker 4: accused who have Now three of the four of them

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Speaker 4: have either played or have been found guilty.

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Speaker 3: There's still one more trial to go.

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Speaker 4: But this is a little different in that number one,

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Speaker 4: if he didn't do it, this guy is getting tried

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Speaker 4: in the press time and time again. How could he

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Speaker 4: possibly have a fair trial? And moreover, then that means

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Speaker 4: there's somebody at large that's a danger to society.

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Speaker 3: And if he did do it, why.

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Speaker 4: Are they not throwing some of this information out or

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Speaker 4: at least showing a little bit of the smoking gun,

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Speaker 4: Because I know, again, I know the answer to this.

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Speaker 4: There's a trial coming and they want to keep their

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Speaker 4: cards close.

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Speaker 5: But I mean, I think the biggest problem with what

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Speaker 5: we're all saying right now to is the fact that

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Speaker 5: he left the fifth rough made alive like in order

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Speaker 5: to pass by Dylan in that doorway, he is literally

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Speaker 5: within inches of her so if you're going to murder

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Speaker 5: four people, I mean, it's a horrible thing to think about.

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Speaker 5: Whoever this murder is. He murders four people, who leaves

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Speaker 5: the one person who actually witnesses, the eyewitness out of it.

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Speaker 5: That's a bizarre move. And this is the one thing

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Speaker 5: I think that is helpful for the prosecution, is you

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Speaker 5: think if he saw Dylan, that explains why he turns

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Speaker 5: his phone on before he's back in Pullman ten miles

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Speaker 5: down the road. He's like, I got to check and

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Speaker 5: make sure no one's on my tail, let me see,

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Speaker 5: let me get online, let me get back on my

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Speaker 5: phone so I have my network again. But I mean,

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Speaker 5: the fact that he's so close to Dylan and doesn't

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Speaker 5: do anything is very Whoever the killer is, that's a

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Speaker 5: very difficult thing that they're going to have to sort

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Speaker 5: of explain. And I almost wonder if they're not going

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Speaker 5: to introduce out the case at all. And it is

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Speaker 5: kind of the point now, I mean that the defense

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Speaker 5: rather has filed a brief that really put a hole

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Speaker 5: in a lot of the things and really kind of

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Speaker 5: I mean, the biggest thing to Nisee that they put

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Speaker 5: out on one of their briefs is the fact that

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Speaker 5: they requested the notes from the idem State Police, Moscow Police,

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Speaker 5: and FBI agents who were present at the autopsy, and

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Speaker 5: the prosecution said none of those three departments took any

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Speaker 5: notes at the autopsy. If you're at the autopsy of

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Speaker 5: these four victims and there's no suspect, you don't know

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Speaker 5: what's going on, how do you not take any notes

436
00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:38,720
Speaker 5: at all? That's a very and that sort of sows

437
00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:40,600
Speaker 5: some seeds of mistrust I think in the law enforcement

438
00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:42,840
Speaker 5: when that's presented at trial. I think that's that's, you know,

439
00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:44,159
Speaker 5: sort of one of those things you've got to put

440
00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:44,919
Speaker 5: a shink in the armor with.

441
00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:46,960
Speaker 6: It's definite. I want to ask you something about in

442
00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:50,280
Speaker 6: the connection to piked In, because the Wagoners were running

443
00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:52,680
Speaker 6: around for like the better part of two years right

444
00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:55,560
Speaker 6: claiming that alibis, claiming they were innocent. I mean, when

445
00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:58,080
Speaker 6: you guys first started looking at piked In, do you

446
00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:01,440
Speaker 6: remember all the different alibis and it claims of innocence

447
00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:04,120
Speaker 6: that the Wageners had in terms of not being connected

448
00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:05,880
Speaker 6: to murdering the road and family.

449
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:06,800
Speaker 3: One hundred percent.

450
00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:10,120
Speaker 4: It was that's basically when we started really digging in.

451
00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:13,000
Speaker 4: Is when they were in the throes of a claiming

452
00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:14,720
Speaker 4: their innocence and they had.

453
00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:15,600
Speaker 3: Moved to Alaska.

454
00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:19,720
Speaker 4: They felt as though the town was being to gossipy

455
00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:21,840
Speaker 4: and that they were the center of gossip, and it

456
00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:23,959
Speaker 4: was a very hard place to live because of that,

457
00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:26,600
Speaker 4: and as you know, there were pillars of the town

458
00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:30,040
Speaker 4: and suddenly there's been this murder, and the boys wanted

459
00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:32,600
Speaker 4: to move on. As fathers and as a family, they

460
00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:36,200
Speaker 4: all collectively moved to Alaska. And we're making the documentary

461
00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:40,000
Speaker 4: right now for NBC, and very recently. When I was

462
00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:42,520
Speaker 4: there last we were going through old family photos of

463
00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:46,320
Speaker 4: theirs of the Wagner family and while they were in Alaska,

464
00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:49,360
Speaker 4: and it's chilling in retrospect, but while they were in Alaska,

465
00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:51,560
Speaker 4: they picked up their lives. They started working again, and

466
00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:54,560
Speaker 4: they went to church, and there's photographs of them as

467
00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:59,119
Speaker 4: a family in matching Christmas pajamas and family photos on

468
00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:02,280
Speaker 4: a boat in there out fishing as a group, smiling

469
00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:05,320
Speaker 4: ear to ear. Life really did appear to move on

470
00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:08,479
Speaker 4: for them very easily, and they really did present as

471
00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:12,080
Speaker 4: though they were not only innocent, but very innocent in fact,

472
00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:16,880
Speaker 4: that they were almost being targeted as an excuse to

473
00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:19,280
Speaker 4: not do better investigating so much so that they had

474
00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:21,880
Speaker 4: to actually move out of town, and that they were

475
00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:23,800
Speaker 4: just an example.

476
00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:24,600
Speaker 3: Of faulty police work.

477
00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:27,360
Speaker 4: And life goes on, and they picked up the pieces

478
00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:30,080
Speaker 4: and they really did chilling to think.

479
00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:32,200
Speaker 3: You know, wow, what we know now.

480
00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:34,640
Speaker 4: Is that they at least three of the four have

481
00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:37,639
Speaker 4: said that they were at least a part of murdering

482
00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:39,400
Speaker 4: these beautiful people, all.

483
00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:39,840
Speaker 3: Eight of them.

484
00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:43,439
Speaker 4: You would think you would not be able to eat, drink, drive,

485
00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:47,000
Speaker 4: do anything that's air quotes normal again in life, because

486
00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:50,840
Speaker 4: you're forever changed and now you've been soaked in other's blood.

487
00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:53,320
Speaker 4: And then you look at these photographs and you know what,

488
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,320
Speaker 4: if we worked next to them at CVS, you wouldn't notice,

489
00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:58,879
Speaker 4: Or if you yes shared a cubicle or were on

490
00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:00,879
Speaker 4: an airplane with them, they would just seem like a

491
00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:04,239
Speaker 4: lovely family of somebody you would not be afraid. And

492
00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:06,439
Speaker 4: I think Brian sort of falls into that category a

493
00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:07,600
Speaker 4: little bit too, where.

494
00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:10,159
Speaker 3: He's not the obvious scary person.

495
00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:11,800
Speaker 4: You know, he might be sitting next to you on

496
00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:14,000
Speaker 4: the train and yeah, maybe he seems a little bit

497
00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:16,640
Speaker 4: odd or a little off, but if anything, you kind

498
00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:19,000
Speaker 4: of feel like just an awkward guy and not a

499
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:21,199
Speaker 4: big deal. You don't think in a million years, this

500
00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:24,680
Speaker 4: is a person that's going to be murdering, potentially or allegedly,

501
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,560
Speaker 4: you know, for beautiful humans. How do you go on

502
00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:29,600
Speaker 4: the next day and go back to school? And that's

503
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:31,480
Speaker 4: been one of the triggers I think, even while we've

504
00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:34,240
Speaker 4: kind of got involved in this case, is yet listen, hey,

505
00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:37,240
Speaker 4: how can we help? But also the idea of the

506
00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:40,520
Speaker 4: air quote bad guy or the killers, the idea that

507
00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:43,439
Speaker 4: you could commit such a hideous crime. And then the

508
00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:47,560
Speaker 4: day after in the Wagner's case, in the Python murders,

509
00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:50,880
Speaker 4: they went to the funerals and they picked up the pieces,

510
00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:54,119
Speaker 4: and they started a gofund me page, and they took support,

511
00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:57,280
Speaker 4: and they took tears and they cried on other people's

512
00:22:57,280 --> 00:22:59,680
Speaker 4: shoulders in the town. Meanwhile they were the killers the

513
00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:01,560
Speaker 4: whole time, Like how do you keep a straight face

514
00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:02,760
Speaker 4: and how do you not crack?

515
00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:06,240
Speaker 3: Times four? And in Brian's case allegedly same thing.

516
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:08,040
Speaker 4: You go back to school the next day, you start,

517
00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:09,800
Speaker 4: you roll into the real world, You hop in a

518
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:11,320
Speaker 4: car with your dad and do a road trip. It

519
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,679
Speaker 4: just seems impossible that there wouldn't be more tells. And

520
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:16,520
Speaker 4: I think that's the creepiest part about the pike In

521
00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:19,360
Speaker 4: case is even when I was in the courtroom listening

522
00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:24,000
Speaker 4: to Angela Wagner, accused killer Mom's testimony, she still presents

523
00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:27,880
Speaker 4: pretty meek and frankly air quotes likable. You know, they

524
00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,320
Speaker 4: have the stick to be able to kind of live

525
00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:33,560
Speaker 4: amongst us, And I think that's the scariest part well.

526
00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:36,000
Speaker 6: And also like two parallels in terms of talking about

527
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:38,119
Speaker 6: Brian Cobergers, Like I don't think the Wagoners have been

528
00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:40,840
Speaker 6: accused of murder before, right, so somehow they went from

529
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:42,359
Speaker 6: zero to killing eight people.

530
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:44,400
Speaker 5: And that's even more so because how many crime scenes

531
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:45,840
Speaker 5: were there in that case. There's only one crime scene

532
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:47,800
Speaker 5: in Coburg where there's right, right, that's insane.

533
00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:51,359
Speaker 6: And with the Wagoners, like they didn't start out trying

534
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:52,760
Speaker 6: to kill a people, but there were a couple of

535
00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:54,840
Speaker 6: people who ended up being there that weren't supposed to

536
00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:56,239
Speaker 6: be there, and then they sort of said, well, if

537
00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:58,000
Speaker 6: you're going to kill this person, you got to kill

538
00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:00,200
Speaker 6: this person because that person's going to come after you.

539
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:02,280
Speaker 6: And so you can also see where this can just

540
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:05,480
Speaker 6: spiral out of control when you kill your first person,

541
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:07,080
Speaker 6: and the next thing you know, you've got to kill

542
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:09,960
Speaker 6: multiple people. That's what makes both of these cases so

543
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:12,879
Speaker 6: fascinating because I think for the average person listening, sitting

544
00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:15,920
Speaker 6: here talking, you can't contemplate killing one person, let alone

545
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:18,560
Speaker 6: multiple people. But there obviously are people who can, and

546
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,399
Speaker 6: when it happens, they end up killing more than one person.

547
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:23,040
Speaker 5: I think the fact that even people who have done

548
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:25,000
Speaker 5: it before don't have a one hundred percent rate. And

549
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:27,919
Speaker 5: both of these murders, whoever committed them, every person they

550
00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:30,159
Speaker 5: tried to kill, they killed. They did not leave anyone,

551
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:32,480
Speaker 5: you know, wounded or they shot it people. Eight people died.

552
00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:34,719
Speaker 5: This person stabbed four people. Four people died. That was

553
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:36,760
Speaker 5: that was it. There wasn't any sort of like someone

554
00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:38,920
Speaker 5: you know, recovered or someone wasn't fully That's kind of

555
00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:40,840
Speaker 5: the most amazing. Even with serial killers, I mean, there's

556
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 5: always one or two who get away. No one got

557
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:43,199
Speaker 5: away from these killers.

558
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:44,120
Speaker 3: It's so true.

559
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:46,160
Speaker 4: And you think about the families too, that we spoke

560
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,600
Speaker 4: about earlier in the piked in case, the family of

561
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,680
Speaker 4: the victims and the family of the accused. They've been

562
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:57,320
Speaker 4: ripped apart emotionally, no matter what side of the equation.

563
00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:00,480
Speaker 4: On it you are, it's devastating beyond words, and in

564
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:03,080
Speaker 4: Brian's case as well, to your point, he had nice parents,

565
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:05,440
Speaker 4: he has nice sisters, he had a decent education. He

566
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:07,480
Speaker 4: seemed to have a lot of opportunity.

567
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:08,840
Speaker 3: What a mess?

568
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:11,439
Speaker 4: What a mess? What a mess? You know, not to

569
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:13,960
Speaker 4: jump around to, you know, one hideous case to the next.

570
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 4: But I'm obviously a Long Islander. The recent capture of

571
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:20,959
Speaker 4: the Long Island serial killer again, who is this scary

572
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:23,240
Speaker 4: guy that's commuting on the Long Island railroad to work

573
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:25,840
Speaker 4: every day, sitting next to somebody who might say, God,

574
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:28,600
Speaker 4: the guy's large and slightly creepy, but I don't know.

575
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,879
Speaker 3: He works with people every single day. And this guy's

576
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:35,840
Speaker 3: going home and just dumping girls and burlap bags. How

577
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:36,959
Speaker 3: does that happen?

578
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,240
Speaker 5: And the fact that the eyewitness who police say led

579
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 5: to the arrest told him about it in twenty eleven.

580
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:44,480
Speaker 5: In twenty eleven, this guy said that's this is who

581
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:46,040
Speaker 5: the person is. He'd seen him with one of the girls.

582
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:48,680
Speaker 5: And it's twelve years later that it's finally like, okay.

583
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:51,679
Speaker 6: Chris, you said something about Brian Cowberger's family, and immediately

584
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:55,280
Speaker 6: I went to the Long Island killer because his wife

585
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 6: immediately filed for divorce, right, you know, unlike in movies

586
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:00,840
Speaker 6: where you know the partners serve always seems to know

587
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:03,719
Speaker 6: or whatever. Like it's very clear she's divorced him. She's

588
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:06,439
Speaker 6: saying she didn't know. There's also some reports that he

589
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:08,399
Speaker 6: always killed when they were out of town and stuff

590
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,280
Speaker 6: like that. But like Brian Coworker's family can't divorce them, right,

591
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:13,600
Speaker 6: the parents can't. They're still the parents. The sisters are

592
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 6: still the sisters. And not that it's good to be

593
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 6: married and have the option to divorce the serial killer.

594
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:21,200
Speaker 6: But like she gets to say, I knew nothing. I

595
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 6: want nothing to.

596
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:23,160
Speaker 3: Do with this guy.

597
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:25,960
Speaker 6: Brian Coworker's family, they're stuck with them. They's stuck with

598
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:28,120
Speaker 6: the same last name. They're stuck with being the parents.

599
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:32,639
Speaker 6: And these murders are also interesting by themselves, but when

600
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:34,840
Speaker 6: you sort of start to think about how they're connected,

601
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 6: in the ways they're connected, there's just some really interesting

602
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:39,600
Speaker 6: sort of links between these killers.

603
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:44,479
Speaker 1: Let's stop here for another break.

604
00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:55,280
Speaker 5: I think that the defense filing that sort of was

605
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 5: poking holes is there's some good stuff.

606
00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 1: You know.

607
00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:59,040
Speaker 5: They point out that the only video they claim to

608
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 5: have of the cards going the wrong way at the

609
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,120
Speaker 5: wrong time. There's based on discovering what they're saying, there's

610
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 5: no clear image of the person driving the car so

611
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:07,720
Speaker 5: far that they've received. At least the defense says that

612
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:09,440
Speaker 5: they've still not provided any link that says that Brian

613
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:11,639
Speaker 5: Copert knew any of the victims. I mean, again, this

614
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:13,640
Speaker 5: is you know, it's all sort of it's playing out,

615
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:15,480
Speaker 5: you know, and they're because of the gagguader, we can't

616
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 5: call prosecutors or the defense or anyone in the case

617
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 5: and ask if things are true or not, or get clarification,

618
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 5: which is why this case is still sort of theoretical

619
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:25,200
Speaker 5: in many ways. But I think that the defense has

620
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:27,400
Speaker 5: certainly put the case in a position I didn't think

621
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:28,239
Speaker 5: it was going to be. If you ask me two

622
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 5: months Agoard if they could be a slamed on case,

623
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 5: I wouldn't think there'd be any chance of. You know,

624
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:33,439
Speaker 5: it just all seems so perfect. And then prosecution's obviously

625
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:35,359
Speaker 5: not saying is if anythings in their filings is the defense,

626
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 5: But the defense is saying a lot of things that

627
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:39,760
Speaker 5: are sort of and to Conna's point earlier about the DNA.

628
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:41,720
Speaker 5: You know, it's right if it was just a bugal swab.

629
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 5: People understand that we took a swab of his mouth,

630
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:45,920
Speaker 5: we compared it to the night they matched. That's it.

631
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:47,720
Speaker 5: It's all going to be very, very interesting to see

632
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:49,439
Speaker 5: how this plays out. And it could just be the

633
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:51,399
Speaker 5: prosecution is staying quiet on purpose and just you know,

634
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:53,439
Speaker 5: sort of holding their cards tight to their chest. But

635
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 5: we will see in a few months.

636
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:58,000
Speaker 6: I think we're unlikely to see in October trial. I mean,

637
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:00,479
Speaker 6: talking to everyone we've talked to the fact that matters

638
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:03,200
Speaker 6: is August is are a dead month in any courtroom

639
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 6: in any place in America, So nothing's going to Probably

640
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 6: they might have one hearing in the middle of August,

641
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 6: but then like until after Labor Day, courts generally shut down.

642
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:13,280
Speaker 6: So then all of a sudden, you know, you're five

643
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 6: weeks from the start of a trial after Labor Day,

644
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 6: so a lot has to happen for a trial to

645
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,359
Speaker 6: start on October second, and it just doesn't seem.

646
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,359
Speaker 4: Likely, which also is a layer that we have to

647
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 4: be mindful of too. The idea that they're going for

648
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:29,199
Speaker 4: death penalty sipulations will also make this a little bit

649
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 4: harder for a jury to convict, you know, that is

650
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:35,159
Speaker 4: a big cross to bear, and if any of this

651
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 4: can be confusing or the filing says very little and

652
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,480
Speaker 4: is very vague and it does, though, just take one

653
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:46,720
Speaker 4: person to feel a tinge unclear. Maybe the death sentence

654
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 4: provisions is too much or is that a way of

655
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 4: the prosecution saying we have the goods and we are

656
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 4: going full blown to make sure that this person is

657
00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 4: convicted and that justice is done and that death is

658
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:00,280
Speaker 4: the elt.

659
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 2: Yeah.

660
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 6: I mean, Idaho is one of about three or four

661
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 6: states that's uniquely positioned for prosecutors to chase death penalty

662
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 6: without much fear that the overall population is going to

663
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 6: be squeamish, you know, using it. I mean, obviously there

664
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 6: are people in Idaho, but like Texas, Mississippi, Alabama, Idaho

665
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 6: are probably four out of the I don't know five

666
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 6: states that if you're a prosecutor wanting to use the

667
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 6: death penalty as a punishment, you probably want to be in.

668
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 6: And I would put Idaho is probably one or two

669
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:32,720
Speaker 6: in those in that list. I would venture to say

670
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,560
Speaker 6: that the prosecution isn't worried about the jury if he

671
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 6: gets a conviction about you know, the application of the

672
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:40,040
Speaker 6: death penalty in the state like Idaho.

673
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 4: Like And have you heard anything, Chris, from the victims'

674
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 4: families at all.

675
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 5: I've spoken to the families. I've spoken in all four families, yes,

676
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 5: at some point, and it's very interesting to see how

677
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 5: they are each handling it in a very uniquely different way.

678
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 5: There are some people like Cayley's family, the Consolvants, who

679
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 5: are very very involved in the trial, and then there's

680
00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:58,760
Speaker 5: people like the Chapins, who are have a very sort

681
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 5: of i mean, their approach to this is just very

682
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:03,240
Speaker 5: sort of you know, it's it's incredible in the sense

683
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 5: they're just really not choosing to get weighed down by

684
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:07,479
Speaker 5: any of the actual the murder is not something they

685
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 5: think about. They don't they think about losing their son,

686
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 5: but they don't think about how they lost their son.

687
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 5: They really focus on their two children they still have.

688
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 5: They really just want to remember happy things and happy memories,

689
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:17,560
Speaker 5: and that's how they want to sort of It's just

690
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 5: a really sort of beautiful thing that must be incredibly

691
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:21,520
Speaker 5: hard to do, but what they've adopted and they just

692
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 5: really just want to, you know, only carry good, wonderful

693
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 5: things about their son or them. They don't want to really,

694
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 5: they don't seem much interested in the trial or any

695
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 5: of that because they just don't want to revisit that,

696
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 5: which is also an interesting thing about this debate about

697
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 5: the house. You know, these people keep talking about leaving

698
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 5: the house up or desmolishing it, and you have to

699
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 5: remember the two people who can still see the house

700
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:40,080
Speaker 5: are Ethan's sister and brother every day, and they probably

701
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 5: don't want to see it. Ethan's brother can see it

702
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 5: from his frat house. You know, that's probably the worst

703
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:44,239
Speaker 5: thing in the world that I might be to look

704
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 5: at the house every day. So I imagine, like you know,

705
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 5: it's eventually gonna get demolished, but it to be nice

706
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 5: if if the prosecution defense say they're done with it.

707
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 5: Even think it'd be nice for those two kids at

708
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:52,040
Speaker 5: least and might have to look at that house every

709
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:53,560
Speaker 5: time they're at school, because it's just going to be

710
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 5: devastating to see that and think about your brother.

711
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 6: Yeah, this whole debate over the house, you can see

712
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 6: it from both sides or mini soides right where the families.

713
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,000
Speaker 6: They want to ensure that there's a conviction. They don't

714
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:08,080
Speaker 6: want anything to be a possibility that it hinders a conviction.

715
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 6: You can see it from the university's point of view,

716
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 6: where they're like, can we get this down. I think

717
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 6: the other thing that's really interesting is is that sort

718
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:16,960
Speaker 6: of criminal tourism that people coming by to see the house.

719
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 6: If you're a neighbor on that street, I mean, God

720
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 6: only knows how many cars or people buses, you can

721
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 6: understand that that's happening. So this debate has been really

722
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 6: interesting to watch it unplay or play out the last

723
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 6: couple of months, because you can understand it from everybody's

724
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 6: point of view. It's one of those things like I

725
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 6: don't know from my point of view, I don't think

726
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,240
Speaker 6: there is a right or wrong answer. There's just at

727
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 6: some point there's going to be a decision.

728
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean it is interesting. I mean both the

729
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:42,239
Speaker 5: defense and prosecution have said there's nothing there. I mean,

730
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 5: I think a house tour would probably be beneficial for

731
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 5: the jurors. I can. I can understand it from that aspect,

732
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:47,800
Speaker 5: but I'm surprised at both sides of the defense and

733
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 5: the prosecution are both like, no, we don't need it,

734
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 5: which kind of surprise me because usually you'd think they'ld

735
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 5: be a house visit at some point during the trial,

736
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 5: but maybe not.

737
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 6: That happened with OJ, but it doesn't actually happen in

738
00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 6: most murder cases where they go to see it, and

739
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 6: that would be a media circus.

740
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:02,480
Speaker 5: I mean nothing, the prosecutions they plans to do it

741
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 5: at all, So that's why I think that nothing.

742
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 4: And for our listeners too, if anybody listening has any

743
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 4: information or any tips or details that they want to share,

744
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 4: please do you know, reach out to us directly. And

745
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 4: needless to say, this is a case that we will

746
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 4: continue to cover and if this trial does in fact

747
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 4: happen in October or somewhere you know, close by, it

748
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 4: will be one of the biggest trials that this country

749
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 4: has seen in a long time, and we will one

750
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 4: hundred percent be there every step of the way. I'm

751
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 4: sure there's more hiccups and surprises to come. So Chris

752
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 4: Connor for your reporting this entire season, so well done.

753
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:43,960
Speaker 5: Thank you for having me.

754
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 1: More on that next time. For more information on the

755
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 1: case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at kt

756
00:32:56,080 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 1: Underscore Studios. The Idaho Mascer is produced by Stefan la Decker,

757
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:05,760
Speaker 1: Jeff Shane Connor Powell, Chris Bargo, Gabriel Castillo, and me

758
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 1: Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by Jeff Toi. Music

759
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 1: by Jared Aston. The Idaho Massacre is a production of

760
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:19,440
Speaker 1: iHeart Radio in Katie's Studios. For more podcasts like this,

761
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen

762
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:28,480
Speaker 1: to your favorite shows. I'm Diana.

763
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 2: You may know as Body Moving, My Friend and I.

764
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 2: John Green were featured in the Netflix documentary Don't f

765
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 2: with Cats. On our new podcast, True Crimes of John

766
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 2: and Deiana were turning our online investigative skills to some

767
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:44,080
Speaker 2: of the most unexplained, unsolved, and most ignored cases.

768
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:48,720
Speaker 6: Police say thirty three year old Bride Again was shot dead.

769
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 4: Gunned down in front of his two year old daughter.

770
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 5: Detectives confirmed that it was a targeted attack.

771
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 2: It appears to be an execution style assassination. This is

772
00:33:57,680 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 2: very active, so we have to be careful.

773
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 4: I heard that there's a house that has some bodies

774
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:03,200
Speaker 4: in the basement.

775
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 6: I knew.

776
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:05,480
Speaker 5: I just knew the move was wrong.

777
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 1: Maybe there's something more sinister at play than just one

778
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 1: young girl going missing.

779
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:15,839
Speaker 5: If you know something, heard something, please it's never too

780
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 5: late to do the right thing.

781
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:20,719
Speaker 2: This is true crimes with John and Deianna, the.

782
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 3: Production of KT Studios and iHeartRadio. Justice is something that

783
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:28,400
Speaker 3: takes different shapes or formed