WEBVTT - When Will Met Grace 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:21.996 Pushkin Hello, Hello, Revision's History listeners. I'm excited to announce 0:00:21.996 --> 0:00:24.916 that this season I'm offering a bunch of perks from 0:00:24.956 --> 0:00:29.316 my most loyal listeners, the ones who subscribe to Pushkin 0:00:29.356 --> 0:00:32.876 Plus for those who just can't get enough. We're giving 0:00:32.916 --> 0:00:37.476 every episode to our subscribers one week early. Plus. We've 0:00:37.516 --> 0:00:42.676 created many episodes released weekly, and I'm calling them tangents. 0:00:43.156 --> 0:00:48.316 And of course you'll never hear any ads. Subscribe to 0:00:48.356 --> 0:00:52.036 Pushkin Plus on the Revisionist History Show page in Apple 0:00:52.076 --> 0:00:57.476 Podcasts or at pushkin dot FM. 0:00:57.636 --> 0:00:59.836 Oh wait, do we need to do this? 0:00:59.916 --> 0:01:01.276 Yeah? Put that in your left ear. 0:01:02.916 --> 0:01:05.356 Him Malcolm, You're Max, I'm Max? 0:01:06.436 --> 0:01:09.516 Max? Is Max muchnik. The other voice is that of 0:01:09.596 --> 0:01:13.676 David Cohen. They're two old friends and screenwriting partners who 0:01:13.716 --> 0:01:16.156 got on a zoom call with me with only one 0:01:16.156 --> 0:01:17.716 set of earphones between them. 0:01:17.916 --> 0:01:20.276 Can you hear him? I'm not kidding, because where we're. 0:01:20.116 --> 0:01:22.276 Connected is it going through your ear? 0:01:22.556 --> 0:01:22.756 Wait? 0:01:22.836 --> 0:01:23.836 Max? Can you not hear me? 0:01:24.596 --> 0:01:26.756 I can, but I'm hearing you through the wrong channel, 0:01:26.756 --> 0:01:28.156 I believe, so hold on one second. 0:01:28.556 --> 0:01:31.636 Okay, Hey, you'd never leave him, all right. 0:01:33.316 --> 0:01:35.476 I called them up to talk about a television show 0:01:35.516 --> 0:01:39.316 that created together almost thirty years ago, a show that 0:01:39.396 --> 0:01:43.116 over the years I've become nostalgic for by the way 0:01:43.516 --> 0:01:45.516 they finally solved the problem of the one set of 0:01:45.516 --> 0:01:50.276 earphones by sitting on top of each other. Did you 0:01:50.356 --> 0:01:55.796 have an agenda when you were conceiving of this show. 0:01:55.996 --> 0:01:56.796 I'm not saying no. 0:01:57.036 --> 0:01:59.716 We really came at this purely from a writing standpoint, 0:01:59.756 --> 0:02:04.156 and specifically Sydney Pollack, who was a mentor of David, 0:02:04.596 --> 0:02:08.636 taught us a lot about writing and writing stories. Yeah, 0:02:08.676 --> 0:02:10.796 and we were in his office one day and he 0:02:10.876 --> 0:02:14.316 knew we were writing, you know, sitcoms at this point, 0:02:14.356 --> 0:02:16.716 and he said, you know, a love story is over 0:02:16.916 --> 0:02:19.956 after the boy and the girl kiss. So if you 0:02:19.956 --> 0:02:21.756 can figure out a way to tell a love story 0:02:21.836 --> 0:02:25.716 where they don't kiss, you can have a show that 0:02:25.876 --> 0:02:27.796 would run for a very long time. 0:02:28.676 --> 0:02:31.396 Sydney Pollock was one of the greatest film directors of 0:02:31.396 --> 0:02:35.436 his generation. His point was that love stories require friction. 0:02:36.436 --> 0:02:38.756 It's only as good as the obstacles that prevent them 0:02:38.796 --> 0:02:41.436 from getting together. I remember him saying, boy, you know, 0:02:42.476 --> 0:02:45.876 race isn't the obstacle anymore. Class isn't an obstacle anymore. 0:02:45.916 --> 0:02:48.236 You know, you couldn't make a guess who's coming to dinner? 0:02:48.276 --> 0:02:54.436 In nineteen ninety where are the obstacles? Max and I 0:02:54.476 --> 0:02:56.556 started to working together like I got one. 0:02:56.916 --> 0:03:03.716 Yeah, my name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to Revisionist History, 0:03:03.876 --> 0:03:09.876 my podcast about Things Overlooked and Misunderstood. This episode is 0:03:09.916 --> 0:03:16.996 about obstacles and their value, and about whether stories and 0:03:17.076 --> 0:03:19.916 storytellers do more good in the world when they are 0:03:19.956 --> 0:03:23.196 faced with barriers that they're forced to overcome. 0:03:29.676 --> 0:03:32.676 David really was the one who was way more comfortable 0:03:32.716 --> 0:03:35.316 with the idea of exploring the relationship that I had 0:03:35.356 --> 0:03:38.356 with my high school girlfriend. 0:03:38.676 --> 0:03:42.676 You know, quote unquote, the quote unquote girlfriend was named 0:03:42.716 --> 0:03:43.716 Janet Eisenberg. 0:03:44.356 --> 0:03:48.916 Oddly, little sidebar story, her father was the surgeon who 0:03:48.996 --> 0:03:53.596 amputated my diabetic grandfather's legs, and so we had a 0:03:53.716 --> 0:03:58.716 very bizarre connection to each other, but we were instantly friends. 0:03:59.756 --> 0:04:02.356 He would break it. He would walk into her house 0:04:02.396 --> 0:04:04.676 and say to her father, wear the legs, where do 0:04:04.716 --> 0:04:05.996 you keep? What have you done with them? 0:04:06.076 --> 0:04:08.716 Doctor Eisenberg never liked that too much, but it was, 0:04:08.916 --> 0:04:13.996 you know, an undeniable thing. She was very, very committed 0:04:14.036 --> 0:04:17.396 and interested in me, and I adored her, you know, 0:04:17.476 --> 0:04:21.476 and I wasn't ready to deal with my truth at 0:04:21.516 --> 0:04:25.476 that time. It was the big secret. And in fact, 0:04:26.036 --> 0:04:28.116 you know, in those days when you were gay and closeted, 0:04:28.196 --> 0:04:29.996 you actually thought, Okay, how am I going to figure 0:04:29.996 --> 0:04:31.636 this out? Where I'm going to live a double life. 0:04:31.876 --> 0:04:34.636 When I told her I was gay, she said, I've 0:04:34.996 --> 0:04:38.316 I have to rethink everything about what I have been 0:04:38.356 --> 0:04:41.276 thinking and what I think I love and how I love. 0:04:42.156 --> 0:04:45.676 Every Screenwtter knows that story always ends the same way 0:04:45.676 --> 0:04:46.356 on television. 0:04:47.036 --> 0:04:51.556 When the gay guy reveals to the female that he's 0:04:51.996 --> 0:04:54.116 that this is what he is and he loves what 0:04:54.156 --> 0:04:59.796 he loves. He is banished and punished and she is 0:05:00.156 --> 0:05:01.196 the victim. 0:05:01.316 --> 0:05:04.876 But Janet wasn't the victim. They all became best friends again, 0:05:05.436 --> 0:05:08.076 and David and Max realized there was another way to 0:05:08.116 --> 0:05:10.636 do the story of the gay man and the straight 0:05:10.676 --> 0:05:14.316 woman who loved each other very much. The result was 0:05:15.236 --> 0:05:19.516 I'm so excited, me and you, You. 0:05:19.556 --> 0:05:22.956 And me with the perfect dame team, Will and Grace. 0:05:27.316 --> 0:05:33.316 This sounds weird, Grace and Will, Now that sounds like 0:05:33.396 --> 0:05:33.796 the thing. 0:05:36.476 --> 0:05:39.636 Will and Grace. It ran on NBC for eleven seasons, 0:05:39.716 --> 0:05:42.916 starting in nineteen ninety eight as part of NBC's vaunted 0:05:43.236 --> 0:05:47.156 Must See TV on Thursday nights. The character Will in 0:05:47.236 --> 0:05:51.236 Will and Grace was a lawyer. Grace was an interior designer. 0:05:51.476 --> 0:05:54.396 They shared an apartment in New York City, with constant 0:05:54.476 --> 0:05:58.196 interruptions from Grace's assistant, the irrepressible Karen. 0:05:59.156 --> 0:06:00.556 There, what can I do? 0:06:00.596 --> 0:06:01.196 How can I help? 0:06:01.236 --> 0:06:01.876 What are we drinking? 0:06:03.516 --> 0:06:06.876 And Will's friend Jack, who functioned as the ID to 0:06:06.956 --> 0:06:08.236 Will's super ego. 0:06:10.116 --> 0:06:10.876 Can't stay for lunch. 0:06:10.876 --> 0:06:12.236 I'm just gonna grab some money out of your wallet 0:06:12.276 --> 0:06:14.036 so I can grab a sandwich in a new sweater. Later, 0:06:15.876 --> 0:06:20.396 together they argued, started relationships, ended relationships, kissed each other 0:06:20.396 --> 0:06:23.996 in endless comedic combinations. The whole Merry Go Round set 0:06:24.036 --> 0:06:26.676 in motion by the premise laid down in the very 0:06:26.676 --> 0:06:30.636 first episode, Grace is about to get married and her 0:06:30.636 --> 0:06:33.316 best friend Will talks her out of it. With her 0:06:33.316 --> 0:06:35.836 groom waiting at the altar, she and Will go to 0:06:35.876 --> 0:06:38.596 a bar to drown her sorrows. She's still in her 0:06:38.596 --> 0:06:42.116 wedding dress and the patrons at the bar start egging. 0:06:41.916 --> 0:06:45.156 Them on, tell us to your lovely new bron. 0:06:46.556 --> 0:06:49.316 Will and Grace look at each other make up, valves 0:06:49.436 --> 0:06:57.476 in the moment and think maybe this could work. Will 0:06:57.516 --> 0:07:01.076 gets caught up in the moment, tries kissing grace, hoping 0:07:01.236 --> 0:07:07.756 sparks will fly, Sparks do not fly, and with an 0:07:07.796 --> 0:07:13.716 obstacle like that, love story can go on forever. David 0:07:13.756 --> 0:07:18.396 Cohen came from a showbiz family. His father, Alan Buzz Cohen, 0:07:18.716 --> 0:07:21.356 was a writer and producer on The Carol Burnett Show. 0:07:21.836 --> 0:07:26.516 His metier was variety specials throughout the seventies and eighties 0:07:26.556 --> 0:07:30.196 and nineties that any variety special that was on there 0:07:30.236 --> 0:07:31.636 was a good chance he was the writer on it. 0:07:31.796 --> 0:07:33.716 But you should know the night that David and I 0:07:33.836 --> 0:07:37.476 won the Emmy for Best Show and we got on 0:07:37.516 --> 0:07:40.876 the phone with Buzz from the back of the limo, 0:07:41.436 --> 0:07:43.836 Buzz said to us, you know, all you have to 0:07:43.916 --> 0:07:46.276 do is win twenty four more and then you have 0:07:46.356 --> 0:07:47.356 my record being. 0:07:48.716 --> 0:07:52.396 There ended up being multiple Cohens in television, including David's 0:07:52.396 --> 0:07:55.276 sister Jenji, who wrote for shows like Sex in the 0:07:55.316 --> 0:07:58.436 City and The Gilmore Girls before going on to create 0:07:58.516 --> 0:08:02.636 the Showtime series Weeds and the Netflix show Oranges and 0:08:02.716 --> 0:08:03.156 New Black. 0:08:04.076 --> 0:08:05.676 I'll goot you, Blondie, what'd you do? 0:08:06.276 --> 0:08:09.436 Aren't you not supposed to ask that question. You read that, 0:08:09.436 --> 0:08:12.036 you're not supposed to ask that You read that. 0:08:13.596 --> 0:08:14.956 Were you studied for prison. 0:08:16.196 --> 0:08:19.236 When people refer to the current era of television as 0:08:19.276 --> 0:08:22.156 the Golden Age, they're referring to shows like Orange Is 0:08:22.196 --> 0:08:24.916 the New Black. It could only be made by streamers 0:08:25.236 --> 0:08:29.516 like Netflix or HBO or Apple TV. It was edgy 0:08:29.636 --> 0:08:34.156 and unflinching. It had the first major transgender character on television, 0:08:34.436 --> 0:08:40.036 played by Laverne Cox. Multiple realistic lesbian relationships. 0:08:39.916 --> 0:08:42.156 Tell us what's different about or what was different about 0:08:42.596 --> 0:08:43.516 pitching for Netflix. 0:08:43.596 --> 0:08:46.676 What's awesome about Netflix is they not only say yes, 0:08:46.716 --> 0:08:49.396 they say yes and shoot a whole season. 0:08:50.356 --> 0:08:53.236 Jenji Cohen was invited to speak on a panel at 0:08:53.236 --> 0:08:54.396 a Vanity Fair conference. 0:08:54.836 --> 0:08:57.636 They eliminate the pilot process, which is so wasteful. 0:08:58.396 --> 0:09:01.116 Normally in television, the people with an idea for a 0:09:01.196 --> 0:09:04.516 show make a test episode first, a pilot, which is 0:09:04.556 --> 0:09:07.996 then critiqued and massaged and shown to focus groups while 0:09:07.996 --> 0:09:10.316 the network figures out whether it wants to say yes 0:09:10.356 --> 0:09:13.876 to a full season. Netflix just listened to Jeni Cohan's 0:09:13.876 --> 0:09:16.476 pitch for Orange Is the New Black and said, go 0:09:16.596 --> 0:09:19.436 for it. Give the story as much time as it needs. 0:09:19.876 --> 0:09:22.916 You're not limited to everything in the kitchen sink in 0:09:22.956 --> 0:09:26.956 one hour. And when you go into a room and say, yeah, 0:09:27.036 --> 0:09:29.316 make go make thirteen hours of that, that's a dream 0:09:29.436 --> 0:09:30.196 come true. 0:09:30.796 --> 0:09:34.556 Jen Cohen's show represents the new paradigm in prestige TV. 0:09:35.196 --> 0:09:39.756 Give the creator what they want now. Compare Genji's experience 0:09:39.956 --> 0:09:41.956 with what her brother David went through back in the 0:09:41.996 --> 0:09:44.996 nineteen nineties when the show that would become Will and 0:09:45.036 --> 0:09:50.756 Grace was still in development. In the late nineteen nineties, 0:09:51.036 --> 0:09:54.596 Netflix was just a little startup sending out DVDs by mail. 0:09:55.716 --> 0:10:02.436 Television was dominated by the old line broadcast networks NBC, ABC, CBS, 0:10:02.836 --> 0:10:08.076 and Fox. Max and David first had to sell their 0:10:08.116 --> 0:10:11.396 show idea to Larren Littlefield, the head of the entertainment 0:10:11.396 --> 0:10:14.556 division at NBC, and they hedge their bets. 0:10:15.396 --> 0:10:18.756 Max and David come in with a pitch, and their 0:10:18.916 --> 0:10:23.756 pitch was a large ensemble comedy. And then at the 0:10:23.916 --> 0:10:26.596 very end there were like the Will and Grace characters 0:10:26.636 --> 0:10:31.836 over here in the corner, and I was like, stop, 0:10:32.516 --> 0:10:36.276 wait a second, that's the show, Like, that's the core 0:10:36.356 --> 0:10:40.716 of the show. Put that relationship front and center. That's 0:10:40.716 --> 0:10:45.516 what I want to see of course, Max and David said, well, look, 0:10:45.596 --> 0:10:49.276 we'd love to do that show, but are you going 0:10:49.356 --> 0:10:50.556 to put that on television? 0:10:51.676 --> 0:10:55.676 Good question because this was NBC, a very staid, old 0:10:55.676 --> 0:10:59.396 school television network, and one step up from Warren Littlefield 0:10:59.796 --> 0:11:02.396 was his very staid boss, Don Olmeyer. 0:11:03.316 --> 0:11:07.116 Then we get to Don Olmeyer going, you did what 0:11:13.356 --> 0:11:19.076 and I said, yeah, it's a script. Most scripts don't work, 0:11:19.556 --> 0:11:23.716 you know, it's just it's development. And I just brushed 0:11:23.756 --> 0:11:27.396 him off. I wouldn't engage in the discussion of the 0:11:27.476 --> 0:11:28.116 right or wrong. 0:11:28.756 --> 0:11:31.796 Did he think this is not a good idea because 0:11:31.836 --> 0:11:35.876 it's not commercial or did he think I done all 0:11:35.916 --> 0:11:39.996 my are heavy personal objection to that kind of a show. 0:11:40.236 --> 0:11:44.756 I think his primary concern was we will never get 0:11:44.796 --> 0:11:49.156 advertisers to go into this. We are a broadcast network. 0:11:50.036 --> 0:11:56.116 Our revenue is based upon advertising, and advertisers historically are 0:11:56.276 --> 0:12:01.876 not groundbreakers, and advertisers will reject this, and this is bad, 0:12:02.036 --> 0:12:02.676 a bad idea. 0:12:02.796 --> 0:12:07.516 Don't do it. A show with a gay man at 0:12:07.516 --> 0:12:12.796 the center on national TV. Littlefield and his screenwriters had 0:12:12.836 --> 0:12:16.356 a big obstacle. Now they had to find a way 0:12:16.396 --> 0:12:27.716 around it. For the first several decades of its existence, 0:12:28.276 --> 0:12:30.996 American television was in the grip of what is commonly 0:12:31.036 --> 0:12:35.236 called mainstreaming. That's a term coined by the Hungarian born 0:12:35.276 --> 0:12:38.836 scholar George Gebner, who for twenty five years headed the 0:12:38.836 --> 0:12:43.756 Annenburg School for Communication at the University of Pennsylvania. Gerbner 0:12:44.076 --> 0:12:47.756 was fascinated by American television in the nineteen sixties and 0:12:47.836 --> 0:12:51.356 nineteen seventies, when the limited number of options on television 0:12:51.556 --> 0:12:56.716 meant that a hit show could command huge audiences. Take 0:12:56.756 --> 0:13:00.516 the Western show Gunsmoke, which in the nineteen sixties was 0:13:00.556 --> 0:13:04.356 the most popular program on television. It would routinely be 0:13:04.436 --> 0:13:07.916 watched by forty percent of the households in America. With 0:13:07.956 --> 0:13:10.876 the TV, you could sit next to a random person 0:13:10.956 --> 0:13:14.156 on a bus the morning after Gunsmoke came on and say, 0:13:14.516 --> 0:13:17.916 without further introduction, could you believe that part where Matt 0:13:17.916 --> 0:13:20.596 Dillon shot that guy? And the person sitting next to 0:13:20.636 --> 0:13:25.756 you would know exactly what you were talking about. George 0:13:25.756 --> 0:13:29.676 Gubner said that kind of shared experience made television like 0:13:29.716 --> 0:13:33.476 a giant church where the same message was preached night 0:13:33.756 --> 0:13:34.316 after night. 0:13:35.116 --> 0:13:39.276 It is comparable to a new religion, not to another medium. 0:13:39.636 --> 0:13:44.636 It's a total symbolic environment that includes art, science, government, 0:13:45.356 --> 0:13:49.916 every all parts of knowledge, and that is steady, It 0:13:49.956 --> 0:13:53.596 is consistent, it is repetitive, and it is used as 0:13:53.636 --> 0:13:54.196 a ritual. 0:13:55.276 --> 0:13:59.036 Mainstreaming was what happened to those who worshiped in TV's 0:13:59.076 --> 0:14:02.436 giant church. So take a hot button issue from the 0:14:02.516 --> 0:14:06.396 late seventies or early eighties, like school busing the forced 0:14:06.436 --> 0:14:12.316 integration of public schools. Conservatives hated bussing. Liberals were much 0:14:12.356 --> 0:14:15.436 more likely to be in favor of it. Moderates were 0:14:15.476 --> 0:14:18.356 in the middle, which is what you would expect. But 0:14:18.436 --> 0:14:21.876 one of Gerbner's colleagues at the University of Pennsylvania, Larry Gross, 0:14:22.196 --> 0:14:25.476 took polling data about bussing and broke it down according 0:14:25.636 --> 0:14:29.676 to how much TV people watched. Gross found that among 0:14:29.756 --> 0:14:34.876 heavy TV viewers, the differences started to disappear. Conservatives became 0:14:34.916 --> 0:14:37.996 a little more in favor of bussing, liberals a little 0:14:38.036 --> 0:14:43.156 less in favor. Television viewing brought Americans closer together over time. 0:14:43.596 --> 0:14:45.036 That's mainstreaming. 0:14:45.996 --> 0:14:50.516 Democrats or Republicans or people who say they're liberal, the 0:14:50.596 --> 0:14:52.916 more television they watched, the more likely they are to 0:14:52.956 --> 0:14:53.716 say they're moderate. 0:14:54.636 --> 0:14:57.356 Larry Gross says, how much TV you watch says as 0:14:57.436 --> 0:14:59.436 much about you as who you voted for. 0:15:00.196 --> 0:15:03.996 It predicts incredibly powerfully. If you watch a lot of television, 0:15:04.036 --> 0:15:06.796 you're mal likely to say you're moderate, whatever your other 0:15:06.916 --> 0:15:07.276 views are. 0:15:07.756 --> 0:15:11.076 The moderating effect of TV viewing, in turn, has a 0:15:11.116 --> 0:15:14.796 moderating effect on the people making television, because if you 0:15:14.876 --> 0:15:17.196 are competing to be the show that the majority of 0:15:17.236 --> 0:15:19.516 the country is watching, you have to make a show 0:15:19.716 --> 0:15:25.396 that's acceptable to the majority of the country. So this 0:15:25.676 --> 0:15:28.516 is what was going on at NBC in the late nineties. 0:15:31.076 --> 0:15:34.356 When the network executive don Olmyer heard the pitch for 0:15:34.396 --> 0:15:37.836 Will and Grace, he heard an idea that was too 0:15:37.916 --> 0:15:41.036 far from the middle the mainstream. It was not a 0:15:41.116 --> 0:15:44.996 television show as people like him understood television to be 0:15:45.116 --> 0:15:51.076 at the time. David Cohen and Max Mutchnik would have 0:15:51.156 --> 0:15:54.596 to moderate it. They start with the casting choices for 0:15:54.636 --> 0:15:58.996 the pilot. They cast Eric McCormick. McCormick in real life 0:15:59.156 --> 0:16:03.396 is straight, conventionally handsome Will his character is a lawyer, 0:16:03.476 --> 0:16:07.036 a corporate lawyer, not a profession according to the stereotypes 0:16:07.076 --> 0:16:09.036 of the late nineties that coded is gay. 0:16:09.636 --> 0:16:13.116 That was also a thing that we did very deliberately 0:16:13.476 --> 0:16:17.556 was to show the world. In casting Eric, we had 0:16:17.596 --> 0:16:19.356 to do that. We had to make sure that that 0:16:20.196 --> 0:16:23.716 type of guy was playing this part that. 0:16:23.836 --> 0:16:26.636 He could be. In other words, he was conceivable as 0:16:26.636 --> 0:16:27.316 a straight man. 0:16:29.356 --> 0:16:30.116 This is some Sorry. 0:16:30.156 --> 0:16:33.036 Maybe I don't wear my sexuality like a sash and 0:16:33.076 --> 0:16:35.316 a tiara the way Jack does, but I am willing 0:16:35.356 --> 0:16:37.196 to put my gainness up against anybody's. 0:16:38.556 --> 0:16:41.036 Yeah, he passed to use a word of today. 0:16:41.316 --> 0:16:44.956 You know, he was able to do that, and that 0:16:45.076 --> 0:16:46.036 just made it safe. 0:16:46.596 --> 0:16:49.516 The casting of Will was a moderating choice, and so 0:16:49.676 --> 0:16:51.836 too was the way the topic of sex was handled 0:16:51.836 --> 0:16:52.316 on the show. 0:16:52.716 --> 0:16:54.556 Am I allowed to use swear words? 0:16:54.796 --> 0:16:56.356 Yes? Yeah. 0:16:56.396 --> 0:17:02.156 A very famous director, Joel Schumacher, summed it up best. Naturally, 0:17:02.236 --> 0:17:04.716 we were having dinner at the foot of Joel's bed 0:17:04.916 --> 0:17:08.116 while he brushed his hair and he was baking Batman. 0:17:08.196 --> 0:17:08.716 At the time. 0:17:09.316 --> 0:17:12.116 Max's dinner companion mentioned the show that Max had pitched 0:17:12.156 --> 0:17:16.036 to NBC Will and Grace. Quick side note, you may 0:17:16.076 --> 0:17:19.476 have noticed an explicit label on this episode. Well, we 0:17:19.556 --> 0:17:23.676 have Joel Schumacher to thank for that. Children cover your ears. 0:17:27.156 --> 0:17:31.116 He looked up and said, just make sure whatever you do, 0:17:31.596 --> 0:17:33.756 you don't make the show too butt fucky. 0:17:34.436 --> 0:17:35.836 That's not what people want to think about. 0:17:36.036 --> 0:17:41.796 And he was really hitting something that was so real 0:17:42.116 --> 0:17:46.636 and it is so true and we kind of knew it. 0:17:46.716 --> 0:17:50.676 I'll let them suspend their beliefs while they watched this 0:17:50.756 --> 0:17:52.996 show and this fantasy, but I need them to know 0:17:53.396 --> 0:17:57.876 when that character goes off the air at eight thirty, 0:17:58.116 --> 0:18:01.716 that actor is not going home and having anal. 0:18:01.476 --> 0:18:08.876 Sex casting mainstreamed content mainstreamed. Then comes the choice of 0:18:08.876 --> 0:18:13.636 a They picked Jimmy Burrows, the famous Jimmy Burrows, who 0:18:13.676 --> 0:18:17.356 co created the show Cheers and who directed episodes of 0:18:17.476 --> 0:18:21.356 virtually every sitcom from the nineteen seventies. On Phyllis wrote 0:18:21.356 --> 0:18:25.156 a third Rock Friends Fraser Jimmy Burrows is as straight 0:18:25.196 --> 0:18:27.876 down the middle as you can get. To Warren Littlefield, 0:18:28.156 --> 0:18:30.756 he was the median strip on Hollywood Boulevard. 0:18:31.436 --> 0:18:34.436 I said to Don Olmeyer, Hey, you know that script 0:18:34.556 --> 0:18:37.516 that you know you had a problem with whatever, you know, 0:18:38.156 --> 0:18:40.956 it's really good. We love it. It's on your desk, 0:18:41.036 --> 0:18:43.356 it's in your en file. We're going to make it 0:18:43.796 --> 0:18:47.356 and Jimmy Burrows is going to direct it. And that 0:18:47.556 --> 0:18:51.476 was kind of like a wall that Don didn't quite 0:18:51.556 --> 0:18:52.436 know what to do with. 0:18:53.476 --> 0:18:57.476 So Littlefield brings in Jimmy Burrows, mister moderation, and mister 0:18:57.596 --> 0:19:01.836 Moderation naturally moderates the show still further. Here he is 0:19:01.916 --> 0:19:04.076 in an interview with the Television Academy. 0:19:04.756 --> 0:19:10.596 I know how difficult homosexuality would be, too, Eric, so 0:19:11.196 --> 0:19:13.356 I tell Max and David, I think we should try 0:19:13.436 --> 0:19:16.356 the first year to make America believe that Will's going 0:19:16.436 --> 0:19:22.196 to recant and marry Grace, because that's what the show is. 0:19:22.276 --> 0:19:25.756 The show is a relationship, a sexual relationship with any sex. 0:19:26.556 --> 0:19:32.796 They filmed the pilot. One final obstacle remains Bob Wright, 0:19:33.356 --> 0:19:36.316 head of the whole NBC network. Bob Wright is a 0:19:36.356 --> 0:19:40.516 staunch Republican. Grew up Catholic on Long Island public school kid. 0:19:40.836 --> 0:19:43.556 Started out as a lawyer at General Electric, later worked 0:19:43.556 --> 0:19:46.556 in their plastics division. He is a house in Palm Beach. 0:19:47.236 --> 0:19:51.556 He's president of the Palm Beach Civic Association. Bob Bright's 0:19:51.596 --> 0:19:54.516 idea of a radical act is doing a donut in 0:19:54.596 --> 0:19:56.916 his golf cart in the parking lot of the Palm 0:19:56.916 --> 0:19:59.836 Beach Country Club. In the end, it doesn't matter what 0:20:00.036 --> 0:20:03.476 anyone else at NBC thinks about Will and Grace. The 0:20:03.516 --> 0:20:05.596 only way to show is going to get on the 0:20:05.636 --> 0:20:10.076 air is if Bob Wright says, yes, Bob Wright is 0:20:10.116 --> 0:20:15.276 your mainstreaming test. Bob Wright hops in the company jet 0:20:15.436 --> 0:20:17.916 and flies out to Los Angeles from New York for 0:20:17.996 --> 0:20:20.916 a special screening of the Will and Grace pilot episode 0:20:21.076 --> 0:20:24.196 thirty five, forty people in the room. The show's future 0:20:24.236 --> 0:20:24.916 is in the balance. 0:20:25.356 --> 0:20:29.556 The lights come up after the screening, the room is quiet. 0:20:29.916 --> 0:20:35.316 Donald Meyer's there, and Bob Wright goes, that's the best 0:20:35.316 --> 0:20:37.156 thing we've ever had our logo on. 0:20:38.556 --> 0:20:40.596 Wait, are you kidding me? Bob Wright said that. 0:20:40.716 --> 0:20:43.676 Bob Wright said that, so, I of course was like 0:20:44.396 --> 0:20:48.676 game over, Like, Don's not going to do anything. No 0:20:48.676 --> 0:20:50.516 one's going to put up a wall. We own it, 0:20:51.276 --> 0:20:56.276 we love it. And the number one guy just put 0:20:56.396 --> 0:20:59.876 his seal of approval. I'm like, that's it. We're putting 0:20:59.876 --> 0:21:00.516 it on the air. 0:21:04.236 --> 0:21:06.276 When Will and Grace first made it on the air, 0:21:06.756 --> 0:21:09.996 it was roundly criticized by gay and lesbian groups and 0:21:10.036 --> 0:21:13.436 television critics too, all pointing out the ways in which 0:21:13.476 --> 0:21:17.196 the show's depiction of gay life was compromised in order 0:21:17.236 --> 0:21:19.636 to please the Don Ol Myers and Bob Wright's of 0:21:19.636 --> 0:21:22.516 the world, like the fact that this was a show 0:21:22.516 --> 0:21:24.516 about gay men in New York City in the late 0:21:24.596 --> 0:21:28.436 nineteen nineties and there was no mention of HIV none. 0:21:28.996 --> 0:21:32.196 We could never quite crack a story where that was 0:21:32.236 --> 0:21:36.676 going to be genuinely funny coming from these characters. 0:21:37.196 --> 0:21:39.756 Funny was their way of staying right in the middle. 0:21:40.316 --> 0:21:43.036 I always thought that we needed to approach all of 0:21:43.076 --> 0:21:46.476 the gay stuff in the same way that I approached 0:21:46.476 --> 0:21:49.996 coming out to my family, with love and with sensitivity 0:21:50.276 --> 0:21:53.596 and with caring about the way that the people that 0:21:53.636 --> 0:21:55.876 I was giving this new information to were going to 0:21:55.916 --> 0:21:59.636 receive it. This bothered a lot of people, and I 0:21:59.716 --> 0:22:03.476 understand that, but by a lot of people, meaning you know, 0:22:03.956 --> 0:22:08.396 organizations like GLAD and you know activists and act up. 0:22:08.716 --> 0:22:10.996 They just thought it was bullshit and we were soft 0:22:11.036 --> 0:22:11.556 peddling it. 0:22:11.996 --> 0:22:16.916 I think another another thing is that you know, at 0:22:16.916 --> 0:22:21.716 no point we were trying to you know, get idea 0:22:22.476 --> 0:22:27.196 or promulgate some ideology. Ever, it was always what would 0:22:27.236 --> 0:22:29.476 this person that we knew, What would Max do in 0:22:29.476 --> 0:22:32.516 this situation, what would Janet do in this situation? There 0:22:32.596 --> 0:22:36.556 was never We were never thinking in terms from the 0:22:36.596 --> 0:22:37.156 outside in. 0:22:37.796 --> 0:22:42.796 We're basically from an show business background. Our families come 0:22:42.836 --> 0:22:46.996 from this. It's a trade. It was the trade and 0:22:47.236 --> 0:22:50.556 the town that we grew up in, and we understand 0:22:51.356 --> 0:22:54.796 uh the work aspect of it, how to survive. And 0:22:54.836 --> 0:22:58.836 because of all of that, we knew our job. Our 0:22:58.916 --> 0:23:01.796 number one job was to entertain the largest number of 0:23:01.836 --> 0:23:05.316 people we could every week. That was the job. 0:23:06.676 --> 0:23:13.756 That was the job. But what about Jenji Cohen, David's sister. 0:23:14.556 --> 0:23:17.316 She never had to ask Netflix the question, are you 0:23:17.396 --> 0:23:20.316 going to put oranges in New Black on television? She 0:23:20.396 --> 0:23:23.516 never had to bring in mister moderation. She never had 0:23:23.556 --> 0:23:29.676 to avoid taboo topics. Netflix love that she explored taboo topics. Now, 0:23:29.876 --> 0:23:32.556 the obvious response here is to say, why would we 0:23:32.596 --> 0:23:35.116 want to go back from Geni's world, to her brothers, 0:23:35.476 --> 0:23:39.396 to the compromises and sacrifices. Netflix and all the other 0:23:39.436 --> 0:23:42.756 streamers have brought us an explosion of quality and choice. 0:23:43.316 --> 0:23:48.236 Television has never been better. But this is why we 0:23:48.316 --> 0:23:52.516 do thought experiments to consider the possibility that what we 0:23:52.716 --> 0:24:07.276 think of as obvious might be wrong. Television, like any medium, 0:24:07.636 --> 0:24:10.556 has a set of implicity storytelling rules. 0:24:10.756 --> 0:24:13.716 It is the case generally that television chooses to introduce 0:24:13.756 --> 0:24:16.116 controversial issues, for instance, through comedy. 0:24:16.916 --> 0:24:20.796 That's Bonnie Dow who teaches at Vanderbilt University, and too 0:24:20.796 --> 0:24:24.036 many years ago, back in the glory days of broadcast television, 0:24:24.076 --> 0:24:28.396 Dominance wrote a brilliant paper about the norms of television. 0:24:28.796 --> 0:24:32.716 The same thing is true with depictions of gay characters 0:24:32.996 --> 0:24:35.516 is that they show up in sitcoms, right, which are 0:24:35.556 --> 0:24:38.436 these thirty minute vehicles in which a problem is introduced 0:24:38.516 --> 0:24:40.356