1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:21,996 Speaker 1: Pushkin Hello, Hello, Revision's History listeners. I'm excited to announce 2 00:00:21,996 --> 00:00:24,916 Speaker 1: that this season I'm offering a bunch of perks from 3 00:00:24,956 --> 00:00:29,316 Speaker 1: my most loyal listeners, the ones who subscribe to Pushkin 4 00:00:29,356 --> 00:00:32,876 Speaker 1: Plus for those who just can't get enough. We're giving 5 00:00:32,916 --> 00:00:37,476 Speaker 1: every episode to our subscribers one week early. Plus. We've 6 00:00:37,516 --> 00:00:42,676 Speaker 1: created many episodes released weekly, and I'm calling them tangents. 7 00:00:43,156 --> 00:00:48,316 Speaker 1: And of course you'll never hear any ads. Subscribe to 8 00:00:48,356 --> 00:00:52,036 Speaker 1: Pushkin Plus on the Revisionist History Show page in Apple 9 00:00:52,076 --> 00:00:57,476 Speaker 1: Podcasts or at pushkin dot FM. 10 00:00:57,636 --> 00:00:59,836 Speaker 2: Oh wait, do we need to do this? 11 00:00:59,916 --> 00:01:01,276 Speaker 3: Yeah? Put that in your left ear. 12 00:01:02,916 --> 00:01:05,356 Speaker 2: Him Malcolm, You're Max, I'm Max? 13 00:01:06,436 --> 00:01:09,516 Speaker 1: Max? Is Max muchnik. The other voice is that of 14 00:01:09,596 --> 00:01:13,676 Speaker 1: David Cohen. They're two old friends and screenwriting partners who 15 00:01:13,716 --> 00:01:16,156 Speaker 1: got on a zoom call with me with only one 16 00:01:16,156 --> 00:01:17,716 Speaker 1: set of earphones between them. 17 00:01:17,916 --> 00:01:20,276 Speaker 3: Can you hear him? I'm not kidding, because where we're. 18 00:01:20,116 --> 00:01:22,276 Speaker 4: Connected is it going through your ear? 19 00:01:22,556 --> 00:01:22,756 Speaker 3: Wait? 20 00:01:22,836 --> 00:01:23,836 Speaker 1: Max? Can you not hear me? 21 00:01:24,596 --> 00:01:26,756 Speaker 2: I can, but I'm hearing you through the wrong channel, 22 00:01:26,756 --> 00:01:28,156 Speaker 2: I believe, so hold on one second. 23 00:01:28,556 --> 00:01:31,636 Speaker 4: Okay, Hey, you'd never leave him, all right. 24 00:01:33,316 --> 00:01:35,476 Speaker 1: I called them up to talk about a television show 25 00:01:35,516 --> 00:01:39,316 Speaker 1: that created together almost thirty years ago, a show that 26 00:01:39,396 --> 00:01:43,116 Speaker 1: over the years I've become nostalgic for by the way 27 00:01:43,516 --> 00:01:45,516 Speaker 1: they finally solved the problem of the one set of 28 00:01:45,516 --> 00:01:50,276 Speaker 1: earphones by sitting on top of each other. Did you 29 00:01:50,356 --> 00:01:55,796 Speaker 1: have an agenda when you were conceiving of this show. 30 00:01:55,996 --> 00:01:56,796 Speaker 4: I'm not saying no. 31 00:01:57,036 --> 00:01:59,716 Speaker 2: We really came at this purely from a writing standpoint, 32 00:01:59,756 --> 00:02:04,156 Speaker 2: and specifically Sydney Pollack, who was a mentor of David, 33 00:02:04,596 --> 00:02:08,636 Speaker 2: taught us a lot about writing and writing stories. Yeah, 34 00:02:08,676 --> 00:02:10,796 Speaker 2: and we were in his office one day and he 35 00:02:10,876 --> 00:02:14,316 Speaker 2: knew we were writing, you know, sitcoms at this point, 36 00:02:14,356 --> 00:02:16,716 Speaker 2: and he said, you know, a love story is over 37 00:02:16,916 --> 00:02:19,956 Speaker 2: after the boy and the girl kiss. So if you 38 00:02:19,956 --> 00:02:21,756 Speaker 2: can figure out a way to tell a love story 39 00:02:21,836 --> 00:02:25,716 Speaker 2: where they don't kiss, you can have a show that 40 00:02:25,876 --> 00:02:27,796 Speaker 2: would run for a very long time. 41 00:02:28,676 --> 00:02:31,396 Speaker 1: Sydney Pollock was one of the greatest film directors of 42 00:02:31,396 --> 00:02:35,436 Speaker 1: his generation. His point was that love stories require friction. 43 00:02:36,436 --> 00:02:38,756 Speaker 4: It's only as good as the obstacles that prevent them 44 00:02:38,796 --> 00:02:41,436 Speaker 4: from getting together. I remember him saying, boy, you know, 45 00:02:42,476 --> 00:02:45,876 Speaker 4: race isn't the obstacle anymore. Class isn't an obstacle anymore. 46 00:02:45,916 --> 00:02:48,236 Speaker 4: You know, you couldn't make a guess who's coming to dinner? 47 00:02:48,276 --> 00:02:54,436 Speaker 4: In nineteen ninety where are the obstacles? Max and I 48 00:02:54,476 --> 00:02:56,556 Speaker 4: started to working together like I got one. 49 00:02:56,916 --> 00:03:03,716 Speaker 1: Yeah, my name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to Revisionist History, 50 00:03:03,876 --> 00:03:09,876 Speaker 1: my podcast about Things Overlooked and Misunderstood. This episode is 51 00:03:09,916 --> 00:03:16,996 Speaker 1: about obstacles and their value, and about whether stories and 52 00:03:17,076 --> 00:03:19,916 Speaker 1: storytellers do more good in the world when they are 53 00:03:19,956 --> 00:03:23,196 Speaker 1: faced with barriers that they're forced to overcome. 54 00:03:29,676 --> 00:03:32,676 Speaker 2: David really was the one who was way more comfortable 55 00:03:32,716 --> 00:03:35,316 Speaker 2: with the idea of exploring the relationship that I had 56 00:03:35,356 --> 00:03:38,356 Speaker 2: with my high school girlfriend. 57 00:03:38,676 --> 00:03:42,676 Speaker 1: You know, quote unquote, the quote unquote girlfriend was named 58 00:03:42,716 --> 00:03:43,716 Speaker 1: Janet Eisenberg. 59 00:03:44,356 --> 00:03:48,916 Speaker 2: Oddly, little sidebar story, her father was the surgeon who 60 00:03:48,996 --> 00:03:53,596 Speaker 2: amputated my diabetic grandfather's legs, and so we had a 61 00:03:53,716 --> 00:03:58,716 Speaker 2: very bizarre connection to each other, but we were instantly friends. 62 00:03:59,756 --> 00:04:02,356 Speaker 4: He would break it. He would walk into her house 63 00:04:02,396 --> 00:04:04,676 Speaker 4: and say to her father, wear the legs, where do 64 00:04:04,716 --> 00:04:05,996 Speaker 4: you keep? What have you done with them? 65 00:04:06,076 --> 00:04:08,716 Speaker 2: Doctor Eisenberg never liked that too much, but it was, 66 00:04:08,916 --> 00:04:13,996 Speaker 2: you know, an undeniable thing. She was very, very committed 67 00:04:14,036 --> 00:04:17,396 Speaker 2: and interested in me, and I adored her, you know, 68 00:04:17,476 --> 00:04:21,476 Speaker 2: and I wasn't ready to deal with my truth at 69 00:04:21,516 --> 00:04:25,476 Speaker 2: that time. It was the big secret. And in fact, 70 00:04:26,036 --> 00:04:28,116 Speaker 2: you know, in those days when you were gay and closeted, 71 00:04:28,196 --> 00:04:29,996 Speaker 2: you actually thought, Okay, how am I going to figure 72 00:04:29,996 --> 00:04:31,636 Speaker 2: this out? Where I'm going to live a double life. 73 00:04:31,876 --> 00:04:34,636 Speaker 2: When I told her I was gay, she said, I've 74 00:04:34,996 --> 00:04:38,316 Speaker 2: I have to rethink everything about what I have been 75 00:04:38,356 --> 00:04:41,276 Speaker 2: thinking and what I think I love and how I love. 76 00:04:42,156 --> 00:04:45,676 Speaker 1: Every Screenwtter knows that story always ends the same way 77 00:04:45,676 --> 00:04:46,356 Speaker 1: on television. 78 00:04:47,036 --> 00:04:51,556 Speaker 2: When the gay guy reveals to the female that he's 79 00:04:51,996 --> 00:04:54,116 Speaker 2: that this is what he is and he loves what 80 00:04:54,156 --> 00:04:59,796 Speaker 2: he loves. He is banished and punished and she is 81 00:05:00,156 --> 00:05:01,196 Speaker 2: the victim. 82 00:05:01,316 --> 00:05:04,876 Speaker 1: But Janet wasn't the victim. They all became best friends again, 83 00:05:05,436 --> 00:05:08,076 Speaker 1: and David and Max realized there was another way to 84 00:05:08,116 --> 00:05:10,636 Speaker 1: do the story of the gay man and the straight 85 00:05:10,676 --> 00:05:14,316 Speaker 1: woman who loved each other very much. The result was 86 00:05:15,236 --> 00:05:19,516 Speaker 1: I'm so excited, me and you, You. 87 00:05:19,556 --> 00:05:22,956 Speaker 2: And me with the perfect dame team, Will and Grace. 88 00:05:27,316 --> 00:05:33,316 Speaker 4: This sounds weird, Grace and Will, Now that sounds like 89 00:05:33,396 --> 00:05:33,796 Speaker 4: the thing. 90 00:05:36,476 --> 00:05:39,636 Speaker 1: Will and Grace. It ran on NBC for eleven seasons, 91 00:05:39,716 --> 00:05:42,916 Speaker 1: starting in nineteen ninety eight as part of NBC's vaunted 92 00:05:43,236 --> 00:05:47,156 Speaker 1: Must See TV on Thursday nights. The character Will in 93 00:05:47,236 --> 00:05:51,236 Speaker 1: Will and Grace was a lawyer. Grace was an interior designer. 94 00:05:51,476 --> 00:05:54,396 Speaker 1: They shared an apartment in New York City, with constant 95 00:05:54,476 --> 00:05:58,196 Speaker 1: interruptions from Grace's assistant, the irrepressible Karen. 96 00:05:59,156 --> 00:06:00,556 Speaker 5: There, what can I do? 97 00:06:00,596 --> 00:06:01,196 Speaker 3: How can I help? 98 00:06:01,236 --> 00:06:01,876 Speaker 6: What are we drinking? 99 00:06:03,516 --> 00:06:06,876 Speaker 1: And Will's friend Jack, who functioned as the ID to 100 00:06:06,956 --> 00:06:08,236 Speaker 1: Will's super ego. 101 00:06:10,116 --> 00:06:10,876 Speaker 3: Can't stay for lunch. 102 00:06:10,876 --> 00:06:12,236 Speaker 1: I'm just gonna grab some money out of your wallet 103 00:06:12,276 --> 00:06:14,036 Speaker 1: so I can grab a sandwich in a new sweater. Later, 104 00:06:15,876 --> 00:06:20,396 Speaker 1: together they argued, started relationships, ended relationships, kissed each other 105 00:06:20,396 --> 00:06:23,996 Speaker 1: in endless comedic combinations. The whole Merry Go Round set 106 00:06:24,036 --> 00:06:26,676 Speaker 1: in motion by the premise laid down in the very 107 00:06:26,676 --> 00:06:30,636 Speaker 1: first episode, Grace is about to get married and her 108 00:06:30,636 --> 00:06:33,316 Speaker 1: best friend Will talks her out of it. With her 109 00:06:33,316 --> 00:06:35,836 Speaker 1: groom waiting at the altar, she and Will go to 110 00:06:35,876 --> 00:06:38,596 Speaker 1: a bar to drown her sorrows. She's still in her 111 00:06:38,596 --> 00:06:42,116 Speaker 1: wedding dress and the patrons at the bar start egging. 112 00:06:41,916 --> 00:06:45,156 Speaker 2: Them on, tell us to your lovely new bron. 113 00:06:46,556 --> 00:06:49,316 Speaker 1: Will and Grace look at each other make up, valves 114 00:06:49,436 --> 00:06:57,476 Speaker 1: in the moment and think maybe this could work. Will 115 00:06:57,516 --> 00:07:01,076 Speaker 1: gets caught up in the moment, tries kissing grace, hoping 116 00:07:01,236 --> 00:07:07,756 Speaker 1: sparks will fly, Sparks do not fly, and with an 117 00:07:07,796 --> 00:07:13,716 Speaker 1: obstacle like that, love story can go on forever. David 118 00:07:13,756 --> 00:07:18,396 Speaker 1: Cohen came from a showbiz family. His father, Alan Buzz Cohen, 119 00:07:18,716 --> 00:07:21,356 Speaker 1: was a writer and producer on The Carol Burnett Show. 120 00:07:21,836 --> 00:07:26,516 Speaker 4: His metier was variety specials throughout the seventies and eighties 121 00:07:26,556 --> 00:07:30,196 Speaker 4: and nineties that any variety special that was on there 122 00:07:30,236 --> 00:07:31,636 Speaker 4: was a good chance he was the writer on it. 123 00:07:31,796 --> 00:07:33,716 Speaker 2: But you should know the night that David and I 124 00:07:33,836 --> 00:07:37,476 Speaker 2: won the Emmy for Best Show and we got on 125 00:07:37,516 --> 00:07:40,876 Speaker 2: the phone with Buzz from the back of the limo, 126 00:07:41,436 --> 00:07:43,836 Speaker 2: Buzz said to us, you know, all you have to 127 00:07:43,916 --> 00:07:46,276 Speaker 2: do is win twenty four more and then you have 128 00:07:46,356 --> 00:07:47,356 Speaker 2: my record being. 129 00:07:48,716 --> 00:07:52,396 Speaker 1: There ended up being multiple Cohens in television, including David's 130 00:07:52,396 --> 00:07:55,276 Speaker 1: sister Jenji, who wrote for shows like Sex in the 131 00:07:55,316 --> 00:07:58,436 Speaker 1: City and The Gilmore Girls before going on to create 132 00:07:58,516 --> 00:08:02,636 Speaker 1: the Showtime series Weeds and the Netflix show Oranges and 133 00:08:02,716 --> 00:08:03,156 Speaker 1: New Black. 134 00:08:04,076 --> 00:08:05,676 Speaker 7: I'll goot you, Blondie, what'd you do? 135 00:08:06,276 --> 00:08:09,436 Speaker 4: Aren't you not supposed to ask that question. You read that, 136 00:08:09,436 --> 00:08:12,036 Speaker 4: you're not supposed to ask that You read that. 137 00:08:13,596 --> 00:08:14,956 Speaker 7: Were you studied for prison. 138 00:08:16,196 --> 00:08:19,236 Speaker 1: When people refer to the current era of television as 139 00:08:19,276 --> 00:08:22,156 Speaker 1: the Golden Age, they're referring to shows like Orange Is 140 00:08:22,196 --> 00:08:24,916 Speaker 1: the New Black. It could only be made by streamers 141 00:08:25,236 --> 00:08:29,516 Speaker 1: like Netflix or HBO or Apple TV. It was edgy 142 00:08:29,636 --> 00:08:34,156 Speaker 1: and unflinching. It had the first major transgender character on television, 143 00:08:34,436 --> 00:08:40,036 Speaker 1: played by Laverne Cox. Multiple realistic lesbian relationships. 144 00:08:39,916 --> 00:08:42,156 Speaker 8: Tell us what's different about or what was different about 145 00:08:42,596 --> 00:08:43,516 Speaker 8: pitching for Netflix. 146 00:08:43,596 --> 00:08:46,676 Speaker 9: What's awesome about Netflix is they not only say yes, 147 00:08:46,716 --> 00:08:49,396 Speaker 9: they say yes and shoot a whole season. 148 00:08:50,356 --> 00:08:53,236 Speaker 1: Jenji Cohen was invited to speak on a panel at 149 00:08:53,236 --> 00:08:54,396 Speaker 1: a Vanity Fair conference. 150 00:08:54,836 --> 00:08:57,636 Speaker 9: They eliminate the pilot process, which is so wasteful. 151 00:08:58,396 --> 00:09:01,116 Speaker 1: Normally in television, the people with an idea for a 152 00:09:01,196 --> 00:09:04,516 Speaker 1: show make a test episode first, a pilot, which is 153 00:09:04,556 --> 00:09:07,996 Speaker 1: then critiqued and massaged and shown to focus groups while 154 00:09:07,996 --> 00:09:10,316 Speaker 1: the network figures out whether it wants to say yes 155 00:09:10,356 --> 00:09:13,876 Speaker 1: to a full season. Netflix just listened to Jeni Cohan's 156 00:09:13,876 --> 00:09:16,476 Speaker 1: pitch for Orange Is the New Black and said, go 157 00:09:16,596 --> 00:09:19,436 Speaker 1: for it. Give the story as much time as it needs. 158 00:09:19,876 --> 00:09:22,916 Speaker 9: You're not limited to everything in the kitchen sink in 159 00:09:22,956 --> 00:09:26,956 Speaker 9: one hour. And when you go into a room and say, yeah, 160 00:09:27,036 --> 00:09:29,316 Speaker 9: make go make thirteen hours of that, that's a dream 161 00:09:29,436 --> 00:09:30,196 Speaker 9: come true. 162 00:09:30,796 --> 00:09:34,556 Speaker 1: Jen Cohen's show represents the new paradigm in prestige TV. 163 00:09:35,196 --> 00:09:39,756 Speaker 1: Give the creator what they want now. Compare Genji's experience 164 00:09:39,956 --> 00:09:41,956 Speaker 1: with what her brother David went through back in the 165 00:09:41,996 --> 00:09:44,996 Speaker 1: nineteen nineties when the show that would become Will and 166 00:09:45,036 --> 00:09:50,756 Speaker 1: Grace was still in development. In the late nineteen nineties, 167 00:09:51,036 --> 00:09:54,596 Speaker 1: Netflix was just a little startup sending out DVDs by mail. 168 00:09:55,716 --> 00:10:02,436 Speaker 1: Television was dominated by the old line broadcast networks NBC, ABC, CBS, 169 00:10:02,836 --> 00:10:08,076 Speaker 1: and Fox. Max and David first had to sell their 170 00:10:08,116 --> 00:10:11,396 Speaker 1: show idea to Larren Littlefield, the head of the entertainment 171 00:10:11,396 --> 00:10:14,556 Speaker 1: division at NBC, and they hedge their bets. 172 00:10:15,396 --> 00:10:18,756 Speaker 7: Max and David come in with a pitch, and their 173 00:10:18,916 --> 00:10:23,756 Speaker 7: pitch was a large ensemble comedy. And then at the 174 00:10:23,916 --> 00:10:26,596 Speaker 7: very end there were like the Will and Grace characters 175 00:10:26,636 --> 00:10:31,836 Speaker 7: over here in the corner, and I was like, stop, 176 00:10:32,516 --> 00:10:36,276 Speaker 7: wait a second, that's the show, Like, that's the core 177 00:10:36,356 --> 00:10:40,716 Speaker 7: of the show. Put that relationship front and center. That's 178 00:10:40,716 --> 00:10:45,516 Speaker 7: what I want to see of course, Max and David said, well, look, 179 00:10:45,596 --> 00:10:49,276 Speaker 7: we'd love to do that show, but are you going 180 00:10:49,356 --> 00:10:50,556 Speaker 7: to put that on television? 181 00:10:51,676 --> 00:10:55,676 Speaker 1: Good question because this was NBC, a very staid, old 182 00:10:55,676 --> 00:10:59,396 Speaker 1: school television network, and one step up from Warren Littlefield 183 00:10:59,796 --> 00:11:02,396 Speaker 1: was his very staid boss, Don Olmeyer. 184 00:11:03,316 --> 00:11:07,116 Speaker 7: Then we get to Don Olmeyer going, you did what 185 00:11:13,356 --> 00:11:19,076 Speaker 7: and I said, yeah, it's a script. Most scripts don't work, 186 00:11:19,556 --> 00:11:23,716 Speaker 7: you know, it's just it's development. And I just brushed 187 00:11:23,756 --> 00:11:27,396 Speaker 7: him off. I wouldn't engage in the discussion of the 188 00:11:27,476 --> 00:11:28,116 Speaker 7: right or wrong. 189 00:11:28,756 --> 00:11:31,796 Speaker 1: Did he think this is not a good idea because 190 00:11:31,836 --> 00:11:35,876 Speaker 1: it's not commercial or did he think I done all 191 00:11:35,916 --> 00:11:39,996 Speaker 1: my are heavy personal objection to that kind of a show. 192 00:11:40,236 --> 00:11:44,756 Speaker 7: I think his primary concern was we will never get 193 00:11:44,796 --> 00:11:49,156 Speaker 7: advertisers to go into this. We are a broadcast network. 194 00:11:50,036 --> 00:11:56,116 Speaker 7: Our revenue is based upon advertising, and advertisers historically are 195 00:11:56,276 --> 00:12:01,876 Speaker 7: not groundbreakers, and advertisers will reject this, and this is bad, 196 00:12:02,036 --> 00:12:02,676 Speaker 7: a bad idea. 197 00:12:02,796 --> 00:12:07,516 Speaker 1: Don't do it. A show with a gay man at 198 00:12:07,516 --> 00:12:12,796 Speaker 1: the center on national TV. Littlefield and his screenwriters had 199 00:12:12,836 --> 00:12:16,356 Speaker 1: a big obstacle. Now they had to find a way 200 00:12:16,396 --> 00:12:27,716 Speaker 1: around it. For the first several decades of its existence, 201 00:12:28,276 --> 00:12:30,996 Speaker 1: American television was in the grip of what is commonly 202 00:12:31,036 --> 00:12:35,236 Speaker 1: called mainstreaming. That's a term coined by the Hungarian born 203 00:12:35,276 --> 00:12:38,836 Speaker 1: scholar George Gebner, who for twenty five years headed the 204 00:12:38,836 --> 00:12:43,756 Speaker 1: Annenburg School for Communication at the University of Pennsylvania. Gerbner 205 00:12:44,076 --> 00:12:47,756 Speaker 1: was fascinated by American television in the nineteen sixties and 206 00:12:47,836 --> 00:12:51,356 Speaker 1: nineteen seventies, when the limited number of options on television 207 00:12:51,556 --> 00:12:56,716 Speaker 1: meant that a hit show could command huge audiences. Take 208 00:12:56,756 --> 00:13:00,516 Speaker 1: the Western show Gunsmoke, which in the nineteen sixties was 209 00:13:00,556 --> 00:13:04,356 Speaker 1: the most popular program on television. It would routinely be 210 00:13:04,436 --> 00:13:07,916 Speaker 1: watched by forty percent of the households in America. With 211 00:13:07,956 --> 00:13:10,876 Speaker 1: the TV, you could sit next to a random person 212 00:13:10,956 --> 00:13:14,156 Speaker 1: on a bus the morning after Gunsmoke came on and say, 213 00:13:14,516 --> 00:13:17,916 Speaker 1: without further introduction, could you believe that part where Matt 214 00:13:17,916 --> 00:13:20,596 Speaker 1: Dillon shot that guy? And the person sitting next to 215 00:13:20,636 --> 00:13:25,756 Speaker 1: you would know exactly what you were talking about. George 216 00:13:25,756 --> 00:13:29,676 Speaker 1: Gubner said that kind of shared experience made television like 217 00:13:29,716 --> 00:13:33,476 Speaker 1: a giant church where the same message was preached night 218 00:13:33,756 --> 00:13:34,316 Speaker 1: after night. 219 00:13:35,116 --> 00:13:39,276 Speaker 10: It is comparable to a new religion, not to another medium. 220 00:13:39,636 --> 00:13:44,636 Speaker 10: It's a total symbolic environment that includes art, science, government, 221 00:13:45,356 --> 00:13:49,916 Speaker 10: every all parts of knowledge, and that is steady, It 222 00:13:49,956 --> 00:13:53,596 Speaker 10: is consistent, it is repetitive, and it is used as 223 00:13:53,636 --> 00:13:54,196 Speaker 10: a ritual. 224 00:13:55,276 --> 00:13:59,036 Speaker 1: Mainstreaming was what happened to those who worshiped in TV's 225 00:13:59,076 --> 00:14:02,436 Speaker 1: giant church. So take a hot button issue from the 226 00:14:02,516 --> 00:14:06,396 Speaker 1: late seventies or early eighties, like school busing the forced 227 00:14:06,436 --> 00:14:12,316 Speaker 1: integration of public schools. Conservatives hated bussing. Liberals were much 228 00:14:12,356 --> 00:14:15,436 Speaker 1: more likely to be in favor of it. Moderates were 229 00:14:15,476 --> 00:14:18,356 Speaker 1: in the middle, which is what you would expect. But 230 00:14:18,436 --> 00:14:21,876 Speaker 1: one of Gerbner's colleagues at the University of Pennsylvania, Larry Gross, 231 00:14:22,196 --> 00:14:25,476 Speaker 1: took polling data about bussing and broke it down according 232 00:14:25,636 --> 00:14:29,676 Speaker 1: to how much TV people watched. Gross found that among 233 00:14:29,756 --> 00:14:34,876 Speaker 1: heavy TV viewers, the differences started to disappear. Conservatives became 234 00:14:34,916 --> 00:14:37,996 Speaker 1: a little more in favor of bussing, liberals a little 235 00:14:38,036 --> 00:14:43,156 Speaker 1: less in favor. Television viewing brought Americans closer together over time. 236 00:14:43,596 --> 00:14:45,036 Speaker 1: That's mainstreaming. 237 00:14:45,996 --> 00:14:50,516 Speaker 3: Democrats or Republicans or people who say they're liberal, the 238 00:14:50,596 --> 00:14:52,916 Speaker 3: more television they watched, the more likely they are to 239 00:14:52,956 --> 00:14:53,716 Speaker 3: say they're moderate. 240 00:14:54,636 --> 00:14:57,356 Speaker 1: Larry Gross says, how much TV you watch says as 241 00:14:57,436 --> 00:14:59,436 Speaker 1: much about you as who you voted for. 242 00:15:00,196 --> 00:15:03,996 Speaker 3: It predicts incredibly powerfully. If you watch a lot of television, 243 00:15:04,036 --> 00:15:06,796 Speaker 3: you're mal likely to say you're moderate, whatever your other 244 00:15:06,916 --> 00:15:07,276 Speaker 3: views are. 245 00:15:07,756 --> 00:15:11,076 Speaker 1: The moderating effect of TV viewing, in turn, has a 246 00:15:11,116 --> 00:15:14,796 Speaker 1: moderating effect on the people making television, because if you 247 00:15:14,876 --> 00:15:17,196 Speaker 1: are competing to be the show that the majority of 248 00:15:17,236 --> 00:15:19,516 Speaker 1: the country is watching, you have to make a show 249 00:15:19,716 --> 00:15:25,396 Speaker 1: that's acceptable to the majority of the country. So this 250 00:15:25,676 --> 00:15:28,516 Speaker 1: is what was going on at NBC in the late nineties. 251 00:15:31,076 --> 00:15:34,356 Speaker 1: When the network executive don Olmyer heard the pitch for 252 00:15:34,396 --> 00:15:37,836 Speaker 1: Will and Grace, he heard an idea that was too 253 00:15:37,916 --> 00:15:41,036 Speaker 1: far from the middle the mainstream. It was not a 254 00:15:41,116 --> 00:15:44,996 Speaker 1: television show as people like him understood television to be 255 00:15:45,116 --> 00:15:51,076 Speaker 1: at the time. David Cohen and Max Mutchnik would have 256 00:15:51,156 --> 00:15:54,596 Speaker 1: to moderate it. They start with the casting choices for 257 00:15:54,636 --> 00:15:58,996 Speaker 1: the pilot. They cast Eric McCormick. McCormick in real life 258 00:15:59,156 --> 00:16:03,396 Speaker 1: is straight, conventionally handsome Will his character is a lawyer, 259 00:16:03,476 --> 00:16:07,036 Speaker 1: a corporate lawyer, not a profession according to the stereotypes 260 00:16:07,076 --> 00:16:09,036 Speaker 1: of the late nineties that coded is gay. 261 00:16:09,636 --> 00:16:13,116 Speaker 2: That was also a thing that we did very deliberately 262 00:16:13,476 --> 00:16:17,556 Speaker 2: was to show the world. In casting Eric, we had 263 00:16:17,596 --> 00:16:19,356 Speaker 2: to do that. We had to make sure that that 264 00:16:20,196 --> 00:16:23,716 Speaker 2: type of guy was playing this part that. 265 00:16:23,836 --> 00:16:26,636 Speaker 1: He could be. In other words, he was conceivable as 266 00:16:26,636 --> 00:16:27,316 Speaker 1: a straight man. 267 00:16:29,356 --> 00:16:30,116 Speaker 11: This is some Sorry. 268 00:16:30,156 --> 00:16:33,036 Speaker 2: Maybe I don't wear my sexuality like a sash and 269 00:16:33,076 --> 00:16:35,316 Speaker 2: a tiara the way Jack does, but I am willing 270 00:16:35,356 --> 00:16:37,196 Speaker 2: to put my gainness up against anybody's. 271 00:16:38,556 --> 00:16:41,036 Speaker 3: Yeah, he passed to use a word of today. 272 00:16:41,316 --> 00:16:44,956 Speaker 2: You know, he was able to do that, and that 273 00:16:45,076 --> 00:16:46,036 Speaker 2: just made it safe. 274 00:16:46,596 --> 00:16:49,516 Speaker 1: The casting of Will was a moderating choice, and so 275 00:16:49,676 --> 00:16:51,836 Speaker 1: too was the way the topic of sex was handled 276 00:16:51,836 --> 00:16:52,316 Speaker 1: on the show. 277 00:16:52,716 --> 00:16:54,556 Speaker 2: Am I allowed to use swear words? 278 00:16:54,796 --> 00:16:56,356 Speaker 3: Yes? Yeah. 279 00:16:56,396 --> 00:17:02,156 Speaker 2: A very famous director, Joel Schumacher, summed it up best. Naturally, 280 00:17:02,236 --> 00:17:04,716 Speaker 2: we were having dinner at the foot of Joel's bed 281 00:17:04,916 --> 00:17:08,116 Speaker 2: while he brushed his hair and he was baking Batman. 282 00:17:08,196 --> 00:17:08,716 Speaker 2: At the time. 283 00:17:09,316 --> 00:17:12,116 Speaker 1: Max's dinner companion mentioned the show that Max had pitched 284 00:17:12,156 --> 00:17:16,036 Speaker 1: to NBC Will and Grace. Quick side note, you may 285 00:17:16,076 --> 00:17:19,476 Speaker 1: have noticed an explicit label on this episode. Well, we 286 00:17:19,556 --> 00:17:23,676 Speaker 1: have Joel Schumacher to thank for that. Children cover your ears. 287 00:17:27,156 --> 00:17:31,116 Speaker 2: He looked up and said, just make sure whatever you do, 288 00:17:31,596 --> 00:17:33,756 Speaker 2: you don't make the show too butt fucky. 289 00:17:34,436 --> 00:17:35,836 Speaker 4: That's not what people want to think about. 290 00:17:36,036 --> 00:17:41,796 Speaker 2: And he was really hitting something that was so real 291 00:17:42,116 --> 00:17:46,636 Speaker 2: and it is so true and we kind of knew it. 292 00:17:46,716 --> 00:17:50,676 Speaker 2: I'll let them suspend their beliefs while they watched this 293 00:17:50,756 --> 00:17:52,996 Speaker 2: show and this fantasy, but I need them to know 294 00:17:53,396 --> 00:17:57,876 Speaker 2: when that character goes off the air at eight thirty, 295 00:17:58,116 --> 00:18:01,716 Speaker 2: that actor is not going home and having anal. 296 00:18:01,476 --> 00:18:08,876 Speaker 1: Sex casting mainstreamed content mainstreamed. Then comes the choice of 297 00:18:08,876 --> 00:18:13,636 Speaker 1: a They picked Jimmy Burrows, the famous Jimmy Burrows, who 298 00:18:13,676 --> 00:18:17,356 Speaker 1: co created the show Cheers and who directed episodes of 299 00:18:17,476 --> 00:18:21,356 Speaker 1: virtually every sitcom from the nineteen seventies. On Phyllis wrote 300 00:18:21,356 --> 00:18:25,156 Speaker 1: a third Rock Friends Fraser Jimmy Burrows is as straight 301 00:18:25,196 --> 00:18:27,876 Speaker 1: down the middle as you can get. To Warren Littlefield, 302 00:18:28,156 --> 00:18:30,756 Speaker 1: he was the median strip on Hollywood Boulevard. 303 00:18:31,436 --> 00:18:34,436 Speaker 7: I said to Don Olmeyer, Hey, you know that script 304 00:18:34,556 --> 00:18:37,516 Speaker 7: that you know you had a problem with whatever, you know, 305 00:18:38,156 --> 00:18:40,956 Speaker 7: it's really good. We love it. It's on your desk, 306 00:18:41,036 --> 00:18:43,356 Speaker 7: it's in your en file. We're going to make it 307 00:18:43,796 --> 00:18:47,356 Speaker 7: and Jimmy Burrows is going to direct it. And that 308 00:18:47,556 --> 00:18:51,476 Speaker 7: was kind of like a wall that Don didn't quite 309 00:18:51,556 --> 00:18:52,436 Speaker 7: know what to do with. 310 00:18:53,476 --> 00:18:57,476 Speaker 1: So Littlefield brings in Jimmy Burrows, mister moderation, and mister 311 00:18:57,596 --> 00:19:01,836 Speaker 1: Moderation naturally moderates the show still further. Here he is 312 00:19:01,916 --> 00:19:04,076 Speaker 1: in an interview with the Television Academy. 313 00:19:04,756 --> 00:19:10,596 Speaker 11: I know how difficult homosexuality would be, too, Eric, so 314 00:19:11,196 --> 00:19:13,356 Speaker 11: I tell Max and David, I think we should try 315 00:19:13,436 --> 00:19:16,356 Speaker 11: the first year to make America believe that Will's going 316 00:19:16,436 --> 00:19:22,196 Speaker 11: to recant and marry Grace, because that's what the show is. 317 00:19:22,276 --> 00:19:25,756 Speaker 11: The show is a relationship, a sexual relationship with any sex. 318 00:19:26,556 --> 00:19:32,796 Speaker 1: They filmed the pilot. One final obstacle remains Bob Wright, 319 00:19:33,356 --> 00:19:36,316 Speaker 1: head of the whole NBC network. Bob Wright is a 320 00:19:36,356 --> 00:19:40,516 Speaker 1: staunch Republican. Grew up Catholic on Long Island public school kid. 321 00:19:40,836 --> 00:19:43,556 Speaker 1: Started out as a lawyer at General Electric, later worked 322 00:19:43,556 --> 00:19:46,556 Speaker 1: in their plastics division. He is a house in Palm Beach. 323 00:19:47,236 --> 00:19:51,556 Speaker 1: He's president of the Palm Beach Civic Association. Bob Bright's 324 00:19:51,596 --> 00:19:54,516 Speaker 1: idea of a radical act is doing a donut in 325 00:19:54,596 --> 00:19:56,916 Speaker 1: his golf cart in the parking lot of the Palm 326 00:19:56,916 --> 00:19:59,836 Speaker 1: Beach Country Club. In the end, it doesn't matter what 327 00:20:00,036 --> 00:20:03,476 Speaker 1: anyone else at NBC thinks about Will and Grace. The 328 00:20:03,516 --> 00:20:05,596 Speaker 1: only way to show is going to get on the 329 00:20:05,636 --> 00:20:10,076 Speaker 1: air is if Bob Wright says, yes, Bob Wright is 330 00:20:10,116 --> 00:20:15,276 Speaker 1: your mainstreaming test. Bob Wright hops in the company jet 331 00:20:15,436 --> 00:20:17,916 Speaker 1: and flies out to Los Angeles from New York for 332 00:20:17,996 --> 00:20:20,916 Speaker 1: a special screening of the Will and Grace pilot episode 333 00:20:21,076 --> 00:20:24,196 Speaker 1: thirty five, forty people in the room. The show's future 334 00:20:24,236 --> 00:20:24,916 Speaker 1: is in the balance. 335 00:20:25,356 --> 00:20:29,556 Speaker 7: The lights come up after the screening, the room is quiet. 336 00:20:29,916 --> 00:20:35,316 Speaker 7: Donald Meyer's there, and Bob Wright goes, that's the best 337 00:20:35,316 --> 00:20:37,156 Speaker 7: thing we've ever had our logo on. 338 00:20:38,556 --> 00:20:40,596 Speaker 1: Wait, are you kidding me? Bob Wright said that. 339 00:20:40,716 --> 00:20:43,676 Speaker 7: Bob Wright said that, so, I of course was like 340 00:20:44,396 --> 00:20:48,676 Speaker 7: game over, Like, Don's not going to do anything. No 341 00:20:48,676 --> 00:20:50,516 Speaker 7: one's going to put up a wall. We own it, 342 00:20:51,276 --> 00:20:56,276 Speaker 7: we love it. And the number one guy just put 343 00:20:56,396 --> 00:20:59,876 Speaker 7: his seal of approval. I'm like, that's it. We're putting 344 00:20:59,876 --> 00:21:00,516 Speaker 7: it on the air. 345 00:21:04,236 --> 00:21:06,276 Speaker 1: When Will and Grace first made it on the air, 346 00:21:06,756 --> 00:21:09,996 Speaker 1: it was roundly criticized by gay and lesbian groups and 347 00:21:10,036 --> 00:21:13,436 Speaker 1: television critics too, all pointing out the ways in which 348 00:21:13,476 --> 00:21:17,196 Speaker 1: the show's depiction of gay life was compromised in order 349 00:21:17,236 --> 00:21:19,636 Speaker 1: to please the Don Ol Myers and Bob Wright's of 350 00:21:19,636 --> 00:21:22,516 Speaker 1: the world, like the fact that this was a show 351 00:21:22,516 --> 00:21:24,516 Speaker 1: about gay men in New York City in the late 352 00:21:24,596 --> 00:21:28,436 Speaker 1: nineteen nineties and there was no mention of HIV none. 353 00:21:28,996 --> 00:21:32,196 Speaker 4: We could never quite crack a story where that was 354 00:21:32,236 --> 00:21:36,676 Speaker 4: going to be genuinely funny coming from these characters. 355 00:21:37,196 --> 00:21:39,756 Speaker 1: Funny was their way of staying right in the middle. 356 00:21:40,316 --> 00:21:43,036 Speaker 2: I always thought that we needed to approach all of 357 00:21:43,076 --> 00:21:46,476 Speaker 2: the gay stuff in the same way that I approached 358 00:21:46,476 --> 00:21:49,996 Speaker 2: coming out to my family, with love and with sensitivity 359 00:21:50,276 --> 00:21:53,596 Speaker 2: and with caring about the way that the people that 360 00:21:53,636 --> 00:21:55,876 Speaker 2: I was giving this new information to were going to 361 00:21:55,916 --> 00:21:59,636 Speaker 2: receive it. This bothered a lot of people, and I 362 00:21:59,716 --> 00:22:03,476 Speaker 2: understand that, but by a lot of people, meaning you know, 363 00:22:03,956 --> 00:22:08,396 Speaker 2: organizations like GLAD and you know activists and act up. 364 00:22:08,716 --> 00:22:10,996 Speaker 2: They just thought it was bullshit and we were soft 365 00:22:11,036 --> 00:22:11,556 Speaker 2: peddling it. 366 00:22:11,996 --> 00:22:16,916 Speaker 4: I think another another thing is that you know, at 367 00:22:16,916 --> 00:22:21,716 Speaker 4: no point we were trying to you know, get idea 368 00:22:22,476 --> 00:22:27,196 Speaker 4: or promulgate some ideology. Ever, it was always what would 369 00:22:27,236 --> 00:22:29,476 Speaker 4: this person that we knew, What would Max do in 370 00:22:29,476 --> 00:22:32,516 Speaker 4: this situation, what would Janet do in this situation? There 371 00:22:32,596 --> 00:22:36,556 Speaker 4: was never We were never thinking in terms from the 372 00:22:36,596 --> 00:22:37,156 Speaker 4: outside in. 373 00:22:37,796 --> 00:22:42,796 Speaker 2: We're basically from an show business background. Our families come 374 00:22:42,836 --> 00:22:46,996 Speaker 2: from this. It's a trade. It was the trade and 375 00:22:47,236 --> 00:22:50,556 Speaker 2: the town that we grew up in, and we understand 376 00:22:51,356 --> 00:22:54,796 Speaker 2: uh the work aspect of it, how to survive. And 377 00:22:54,836 --> 00:22:58,836 Speaker 2: because of all of that, we knew our job. Our 378 00:22:58,916 --> 00:23:01,796 Speaker 2: number one job was to entertain the largest number of 379 00:23:01,836 --> 00:23:05,316 Speaker 2: people we could every week. That was the job. 380 00:23:06,676 --> 00:23:13,756 Speaker 1: That was the job. But what about Jenji Cohen, David's sister. 381 00:23:14,556 --> 00:23:17,316 Speaker 1: She never had to ask Netflix the question, are you 382 00:23:17,396 --> 00:23:20,316 Speaker 1: going to put oranges in New Black on television? She 383 00:23:20,396 --> 00:23:23,516 Speaker 1: never had to bring in mister moderation. She never had 384 00:23:23,556 --> 00:23:29,676 Speaker 1: to avoid taboo topics. Netflix love that she explored taboo topics. Now, 385 00:23:29,876 --> 00:23:32,556 Speaker 1: the obvious response here is to say, why would we 386 00:23:32,596 --> 00:23:35,116 Speaker 1: want to go back from Geni's world, to her brothers, 387 00:23:35,476 --> 00:23:39,396 Speaker 1: to the compromises and sacrifices. Netflix and all the other 388 00:23:39,436 --> 00:23:42,756 Speaker 1: streamers have brought us an explosion of quality and choice. 389 00:23:43,316 --> 00:23:48,236 Speaker 1: Television has never been better. But this is why we 390 00:23:48,316 --> 00:23:52,516 Speaker 1: do thought experiments to consider the possibility that what we 391 00:23:52,716 --> 00:24:07,276 Speaker 1: think of as obvious might be wrong. Television, like any medium, 392 00:24:07,636 --> 00:24:10,556 Speaker 1: has a set of implicity storytelling rules. 393 00:24:10,756 --> 00:24:13,716 Speaker 6: It is the case generally that television chooses to introduce 394 00:24:13,756 --> 00:24:16,116 Speaker 6: controversial issues, for instance, through comedy. 395 00:24:16,916 --> 00:24:20,796 Speaker 1: That's Bonnie Dow who teaches at Vanderbilt University, and too 396 00:24:20,796 --> 00:24:24,036 Speaker 1: many years ago, back in the glory days of broadcast television, 397 00:24:24,076 --> 00:24:28,396 Speaker 1: Dominance wrote a brilliant paper about the norms of television. 398 00:24:28,796 --> 00:24:32,716 Speaker 6: The same thing is true with depictions of gay characters 399 00:24:32,996 --> 00:24:35,516 Speaker 6: is that they show up in sitcoms, right, which are 400 00:24:35,556 --> 00:24:38,436 Speaker 6: these thirty minute vehicles in which a problem is introduced 401 00:24:38,516 --> 00:24:40,356 Speaker 6: and then the problem is solved by the end of 402 00:24:40,356 --> 00:24:42,916 Speaker 6: the episode. And it's a very comforting form. It's very funny, 403 00:24:43,516 --> 00:24:46,156 Speaker 6: and it allows for something to be treated lightly. 404 00:24:46,916 --> 00:24:51,716 Speaker 1: Daw identified four rules, let's call them Dow's rules. Rule one, 405 00:24:52,116 --> 00:24:55,236 Speaker 1: a gay character cannot be the lead in any story. 406 00:24:55,916 --> 00:24:59,556 Speaker 1: They can only be secondary characters whose gayness is an 407 00:24:59,596 --> 00:25:01,076 Speaker 1: issue that creates resolution. 408 00:25:01,916 --> 00:25:06,836 Speaker 6: The narratives tend to be about how their revelation about 409 00:25:06,876 --> 00:25:11,556 Speaker 6: their sexuality affects their relationship with straight characters, friends and family, 410 00:25:11,796 --> 00:25:16,156 Speaker 6: co workers, and how they are and how they become 411 00:25:16,196 --> 00:25:18,916 Speaker 6: a sort of problem that has to be solved. 412 00:25:19,676 --> 00:25:23,076 Speaker 1: Rule number two, it's all about the straight people. Rule 413 00:25:23,116 --> 00:25:28,356 Speaker 1: number three. Gay characters don't associate with other gay people. 414 00:25:28,516 --> 00:25:30,956 Speaker 6: So they tend not to have gay friends. They tend 415 00:25:30,956 --> 00:25:33,876 Speaker 6: not to go to gay events, their gayness becomes this 416 00:25:33,956 --> 00:25:35,596 Speaker 6: solely personal thing. 417 00:25:36,116 --> 00:25:36,356 Speaker 11: Right. 418 00:25:36,836 --> 00:25:39,956 Speaker 6: And then finally, which is related to the thing that 419 00:25:39,996 --> 00:25:44,396 Speaker 6: I just said, you rarely ever see or saw back 420 00:25:44,396 --> 00:25:48,156 Speaker 6: in the day depictions of gay desire or gay sex. 421 00:25:48,716 --> 00:25:48,916 Speaker 5: Right. 422 00:25:48,996 --> 00:25:52,276 Speaker 6: So these were people for whom the whole point really 423 00:25:52,636 --> 00:25:54,996 Speaker 6: was the whole point of their identity. The way it 424 00:25:55,036 --> 00:25:58,876 Speaker 6: was depicted was that they were sexually interested in their 425 00:25:58,916 --> 00:26:04,436 Speaker 6: same gender. But yet you actually didn't see that being enacted. 426 00:26:05,236 --> 00:26:07,676 Speaker 1: In her essay, Doubt talks a lot about the sitcom 427 00:26:07,796 --> 00:26:11,956 Speaker 1: Ellen starting to meeting Ellen DeGeneres. In the show's fourth season, 428 00:26:12,316 --> 00:26:14,916 Speaker 1: Ellen comes out as gay, which was considered to be 429 00:26:15,196 --> 00:26:17,196 Speaker 1: this epic moment in social progress. 430 00:26:18,396 --> 00:26:23,076 Speaker 6: When you put one of these taboo topics on to 431 00:26:23,236 --> 00:26:26,796 Speaker 6: prime time, people act as though the entire difficulty has 432 00:26:26,836 --> 00:26:29,276 Speaker 6: been solved, Like, we used to be homophobic, we used 433 00:26:29,276 --> 00:26:32,516 Speaker 6: to not represent GLBTQ characters. Now we have Ellen, and 434 00:26:32,556 --> 00:26:35,996 Speaker 6: everything's fine. Right, It is sort of the narrative, and 435 00:26:36,036 --> 00:26:38,196 Speaker 6: that's not true, right, That's just not true. There's a 436 00:26:38,236 --> 00:26:39,436 Speaker 6: lot more work to be done. 437 00:26:39,716 --> 00:26:44,036 Speaker 1: The film historian Vito Russo once surveyed thirty two Hollywood 438 00:26:44,036 --> 00:26:47,956 Speaker 1: movies from the sixties and seventies that had major gay characters. 439 00:26:48,516 --> 00:26:53,476 Speaker 1: Eighteen of those characters were murdered, thirteen committed suicide, and 440 00:26:53,596 --> 00:26:58,196 Speaker 1: one was castrated. Ellen was definitely a step up from that. 441 00:26:58,836 --> 00:27:02,796 Speaker 1: But Ellen left all the other rules intact, her identity 442 00:27:02,996 --> 00:27:05,476 Speaker 1: a problem to be solved. I mean, just listen to 443 00:27:05,516 --> 00:27:07,836 Speaker 1: Ellen's struggle as she comes out to her friend Susan. 444 00:27:08,196 --> 00:27:10,876 Speaker 4: I mean, why can't I just see the truth? I mean, 445 00:27:10,916 --> 00:27:11,636 Speaker 4: be who I am. 446 00:27:11,756 --> 00:27:12,916 Speaker 9: I'm thirty five years old. 447 00:27:13,436 --> 00:27:14,876 Speaker 1: I'm so afraid to tell people. 448 00:27:14,876 --> 00:27:15,556 Speaker 6: I mean, I just. 449 00:27:17,236 --> 00:27:19,436 Speaker 4: Susan, I'm gay. 450 00:27:24,076 --> 00:27:27,556 Speaker 1: Ellen was just baby Steps. But do you know what 451 00:27:27,636 --> 00:27:32,236 Speaker 1: show wasn't Baby Steps? Will and Grace. That's the truth 452 00:27:32,476 --> 00:27:35,916 Speaker 1: that so many critics missed. Yes, Getting Will and Grace 453 00:27:35,956 --> 00:27:39,436 Speaker 1: greenlit at NBC meant that the character Will had to 454 00:27:39,476 --> 00:27:42,516 Speaker 1: be essentially a straight guy who just claimed to be gay, 455 00:27:43,116 --> 00:27:46,556 Speaker 1: and the screenwriters had to spend a full season pretending 456 00:27:46,636 --> 00:27:50,036 Speaker 1: that Will and Grace might eventually get together. Gay characters 457 00:27:50,196 --> 00:27:53,836 Speaker 1: could kiss, but not much else, and HIV could never 458 00:27:53,916 --> 00:27:56,756 Speaker 1: come up at all, even though HIV was the central 459 00:27:56,796 --> 00:28:00,036 Speaker 1: issue in gay life in the nineteen nineties. Will and 460 00:28:00,076 --> 00:28:05,596 Speaker 1: Grace drove activists crazy, but they missed the point beneath 461 00:28:05,676 --> 00:28:11,356 Speaker 1: that moderate exterior, Will and Grace was deeply subversive because 462 00:28:11,396 --> 00:28:17,156 Speaker 1: it broke every one of DAW's rules. Gay character is 463 00:28:17,236 --> 00:28:18,236 Speaker 1: central to the narrative. 464 00:28:18,756 --> 00:28:21,756 Speaker 11: Check, Fyi, folks, most people that meet me do not 465 00:28:21,836 --> 00:28:22,596 Speaker 11: know that I am gay. 466 00:28:22,916 --> 00:28:24,836 Speaker 4: Jack, blind and deaf people. 467 00:28:24,596 --> 00:28:25,516 Speaker 11: Know you're gay. 468 00:28:27,916 --> 00:28:32,876 Speaker 1: Homosexuality not a problem to be solved. Check Am I 469 00:28:32,956 --> 00:28:33,796 Speaker 1: a bad gay man? 470 00:28:33,996 --> 00:28:34,276 Speaker 11: Yes? 471 00:28:36,036 --> 00:28:37,556 Speaker 2: How can you answer that so easily? 472 00:28:38,076 --> 00:28:39,996 Speaker 11: Because yesterday when I saw that you didn't leave me 473 00:28:40,036 --> 00:28:43,236 Speaker 11: any milk for my coffee, I remember saying bad gay. 474 00:28:43,156 --> 00:28:49,476 Speaker 1: In gay people hanging out with other gay people. 475 00:28:50,116 --> 00:28:52,916 Speaker 6: Check have you asked anyone to dance? Have you talked 476 00:28:52,956 --> 00:28:53,636 Speaker 6: to anybody? 477 00:28:53,916 --> 00:28:54,836 Speaker 4: Have you done anything? 478 00:28:57,236 --> 00:28:59,076 Speaker 11: Yeah? Like everyone's judging me. 479 00:28:59,836 --> 00:29:00,836 Speaker 5: Well, of course they are at. 480 00:29:00,716 --> 00:29:05,876 Speaker 1: The gay bar acknowledgment of gay desire. Check especially when 481 00:29:05,956 --> 00:29:08,116 Speaker 1: Jack gets going here he is with Grace. 482 00:29:08,756 --> 00:29:09,716 Speaker 4: Oh, have be useful. 483 00:29:09,716 --> 00:29:11,956 Speaker 2: Help the man standing behind him with the big package. 484 00:29:12,636 --> 00:29:19,196 Speaker 8: Grace, don't tease me? Well, Gray Sadler design, I'll sign 485 00:29:19,236 --> 00:29:24,756 Speaker 8: both just your names for I don't need your phone number. 486 00:29:31,956 --> 00:29:34,956 Speaker 1: On the Thursday night lineup, just before Will and Grace 487 00:29:35,316 --> 00:29:39,036 Speaker 1: was friends, Friends didn't break any rules, nor did another 488 00:29:39,076 --> 00:29:43,556 Speaker 1: stalwart of NBC's famous Thursday Night Seinfeld. Friends in Seinfeld 489 00:29:43,756 --> 00:29:46,556 Speaker 1: are just variations on the theme of eccentric young white 490 00:29:46,556 --> 00:29:51,196 Speaker 1: people implausibly living in vast New York City apartments. Will 491 00:29:51,236 --> 00:29:53,836 Speaker 1: and Grace had eccentric people in a New York City 492 00:29:53,876 --> 00:29:57,596 Speaker 1: apartment where something radical is happening below the surface. 493 00:29:58,676 --> 00:30:01,476 Speaker 2: We knew that we had a win in the fact 494 00:30:01,516 --> 00:30:04,596 Speaker 2: that there was an out gay man at the center 495 00:30:04,676 --> 00:30:09,756 Speaker 2: of our show, and we were going to eventually, over time, 496 00:30:10,116 --> 00:30:11,876 Speaker 2: show a very, very full. 497 00:30:11,716 --> 00:30:14,636 Speaker 4: Life that people were choosing to identify with. 498 00:30:15,676 --> 00:30:18,516 Speaker 2: To answer your question, I mean that is how we 499 00:30:19,756 --> 00:30:24,116 Speaker 2: slowly fed this gay conspiracy to the American public. 500 00:30:24,956 --> 00:30:29,196 Speaker 1: Max is joking about gay conspiracy, of course, but only slightly. 501 00:30:29,996 --> 00:30:33,276 Speaker 1: Because what happens during the very same period that Will 502 00:30:33,316 --> 00:30:37,036 Speaker 1: and Grace is breaking all four rules, something shifts in 503 00:30:37,076 --> 00:30:41,436 Speaker 1: the culture. The idea that gay people are normal and 504 00:30:41,476 --> 00:30:44,516 Speaker 1: that we shouldn't be afraid of them starts to spread. 505 00:30:47,116 --> 00:30:49,716 Speaker 1: In the mid nineties, before Will and Grace, only a 506 00:30:49,756 --> 00:30:52,436 Speaker 1: quart of Americans were in favor of gay marriage. By 507 00:30:52,476 --> 00:30:55,036 Speaker 1: the time the show was over, that percentage of those 508 00:30:55,076 --> 00:30:58,636 Speaker 1: in favor of gay marriage had doubled. Now it's up 509 00:30:58,636 --> 00:31:02,916 Speaker 1: to more than seventy percent, and everyone moved in that direction, 510 00:31:03,316 --> 00:31:06,156 Speaker 1: young and old, black and white. A shift in public 511 00:31:06,196 --> 00:31:11,196 Speaker 1: opinion almost without parallel in American history. The idea of 512 00:31:11,276 --> 00:31:13,276 Speaker 1: gay marriage is mainstreamed. 513 00:31:15,036 --> 00:31:17,676 Speaker 12: I think Will and Grace probably did more to educate 514 00:31:17,716 --> 00:31:21,956 Speaker 12: the American public than almost anything anybody's ever done so far. 515 00:31:22,996 --> 00:31:25,356 Speaker 1: Do you remember Joe Biden's famous comment on Meet the 516 00:31:25,396 --> 00:31:29,156 Speaker 1: Press back in twenty twelve when he was Vice president. 517 00:31:29,516 --> 00:31:32,436 Speaker 12: And I think people fear that which is different. Now 518 00:31:32,476 --> 00:31:34,276 Speaker 12: they're beginning to understand. 519 00:31:34,516 --> 00:31:37,356 Speaker 1: He was right. Even people on the other side of 520 00:31:37,396 --> 00:31:40,836 Speaker 1: the gay marriage issue agreed. Listen to the former Republican 521 00:31:40,916 --> 00:31:44,156 Speaker 1: Senator Rick Santorum, a longtime opponent of gay rights. 522 00:31:44,756 --> 00:31:46,836 Speaker 4: Politics does not shape those issues. 523 00:31:48,676 --> 00:31:49,956 Speaker 3: Culture shapes those issues. 524 00:31:50,836 --> 00:31:51,236 Speaker 7: Could you go. 525 00:31:51,276 --> 00:31:52,116 Speaker 3: Indition of marriage? 526 00:31:52,116 --> 00:31:55,396 Speaker 8: Look at the sexual Revolution caused a big change in sexual. 527 00:31:55,076 --> 00:31:57,916 Speaker 3: More raising discuss but when it came to. 528 00:31:57,876 --> 00:31:59,916 Speaker 2: The issue of marriage. 529 00:32:01,036 --> 00:32:04,796 Speaker 8: And changing the definition of marriage, there was no change, 530 00:32:05,276 --> 00:32:08,596 Speaker 8: no zero for thirty years. 531 00:32:10,396 --> 00:32:14,036 Speaker 2: And then a television show came on the air called 532 00:32:14,036 --> 00:32:14,796 Speaker 2: Willem Grace. 533 00:32:21,756 --> 00:32:24,996 Speaker 1: Could a television show today change minds in the way 534 00:32:25,036 --> 00:32:28,796 Speaker 1: that Will and Grace changed minds? No, not a chance. 535 00:32:29,396 --> 00:32:32,076 Speaker 1: Will and Grace started in the late nineteen nineties, right 536 00:32:32,076 --> 00:32:33,956 Speaker 1: at the tail end of the Big Church era in 537 00:32:33,996 --> 00:32:38,276 Speaker 1: broadcast television. It had an audience. Will and Grace at 538 00:32:38,316 --> 00:32:41,796 Speaker 1: its peak had about seventeen and a half million viewers, 539 00:32:42,036 --> 00:32:45,156 Speaker 1: which translates to a rating of about twelve. I watched 540 00:32:45,196 --> 00:32:47,876 Speaker 1: Will and Grace all the time, so did everyone I knew. 541 00:32:48,756 --> 00:32:50,916 Speaker 1: If you were in your late twenties or thirties in 542 00:32:50,996 --> 00:32:53,596 Speaker 1: the early two thousands, you could sit down next to 543 00:32:53,636 --> 00:32:56,236 Speaker 1: another young stranger on a bus on a Friday morning 544 00:32:56,276 --> 00:32:59,276 Speaker 1: and say, can you believe that thing that Jack said 545 00:32:59,316 --> 00:33:02,316 Speaker 1: to Karen last night? That was the bargain you made 546 00:33:02,356 --> 00:33:06,236 Speaker 1: in the old television paradigm. You allowed Don Olmyer to 547 00:33:06,276 --> 00:33:09,116 Speaker 1: scale back your ambitions and push you into the middle, 548 00:33:09,916 --> 00:33:12,676 Speaker 1: but in return, you got to change the world to 549 00:33:12,836 --> 00:33:16,636 Speaker 1: reach people. I called up Brian Feuher to find out 550 00:33:16,716 --> 00:33:19,796 Speaker 1: what rating for a sitcom would make a network executive 551 00:33:19,836 --> 00:33:23,276 Speaker 1: happy today. Fure is a senior vice president at the 552 00:33:23,356 --> 00:33:26,796 Speaker 1: Nielsen Company, which has been providing ratings for the television 553 00:33:26,796 --> 00:33:28,276 Speaker 1: industry for decades. 554 00:33:29,036 --> 00:33:31,436 Speaker 5: I think if you get it at anything above a 555 00:33:31,516 --> 00:33:35,156 Speaker 5: five or three or four, that would be wildly successful. 556 00:33:35,996 --> 00:33:39,716 Speaker 1: Oh wow, So like a network executive today. Having a 557 00:33:39,756 --> 00:33:43,276 Speaker 1: conversation with a network executive in nineteen seventy five about 558 00:33:43,276 --> 00:33:45,276 Speaker 1: what would make them happy, they wouldn't even be speaking 559 00:33:45,316 --> 00:33:48,756 Speaker 1: the same language now totally different. There's a funny thing. 560 00:33:49,076 --> 00:33:51,276 Speaker 1: The guy who creates Will and Grace his sister is 561 00:33:51,316 --> 00:33:54,236 Speaker 1: the person who created Orange Is a New Black. As 562 00:33:54,236 --> 00:33:57,756 Speaker 1: it was a wonderful little comparison point. So I'm curious, 563 00:33:58,076 --> 00:34:00,316 Speaker 1: can we estimate the viewership of something like Orange is 564 00:34:00,356 --> 00:34:00,796 Speaker 1: a New Black. 565 00:34:00,916 --> 00:34:03,596 Speaker 5: It would have done about a one rating for all 566 00:34:03,636 --> 00:34:09,516 Speaker 5: the episodes across Netflix, maybe across the first week after 567 00:34:09,556 --> 00:34:10,836 Speaker 5: a new season was released. 568 00:34:11,476 --> 00:34:14,436 Speaker 1: At best, Oranges and New Black could have had a 569 00:34:14,516 --> 00:34:17,076 Speaker 1: rating of one, and that made it a hit for 570 00:34:17,116 --> 00:34:20,116 Speaker 1: its time. The peak rating for Will and Grace was twelve. 571 00:34:20,476 --> 00:34:24,516 Speaker 1: David got a twelve, his sister got a one. And 572 00:34:24,596 --> 00:34:27,476 Speaker 1: if your Netflix and mistakes for each of your shows 573 00:34:27,556 --> 00:34:30,756 Speaker 1: are so small, why bother trying to play the mainstreaming 574 00:34:30,796 --> 00:34:33,956 Speaker 1: game at all? Now? There is no suit in the 575 00:34:33,996 --> 00:34:36,996 Speaker 1: corporate office who pushes you to the middle, no big 576 00:34:36,996 --> 00:34:39,076 Speaker 1: boss who has to fly out from New York to 577 00:34:39,116 --> 00:34:42,916 Speaker 1: give the okay. Instead, you get told go and make art, 578 00:34:45,716 --> 00:34:47,636 Speaker 1: and when you come back with your little bit of 579 00:34:47,716 --> 00:34:52,596 Speaker 1: unfettered creative genius. Netflix rows it on their platform along 580 00:34:52,636 --> 00:34:55,596 Speaker 1: with its thousands of other offerings, where it is recommended 581 00:34:55,636 --> 00:34:59,116 Speaker 1: to those Netflix subscribers who, on the basis of their 582 00:34:59,156 --> 00:35:03,836 Speaker 1: previous viewing choices, are guaranteed to agree with every edgy 583 00:35:03,836 --> 00:35:07,676 Speaker 1: thing your show has to say. We have redeemed television's 584 00:35:07,756 --> 00:35:14,276 Speaker 1: soul at the price of its impact. Do me a favor, 585 00:35:14,636 --> 00:35:16,956 Speaker 1: Go back and watch a few episodes of Will and Grace. 586 00:35:17,676 --> 00:35:30,476 Speaker 1: We will never see anything like that again. Revisionist History 587 00:35:30,516 --> 00:35:33,876 Speaker 1: is produced by Elouise Linton, Leeman Gestu, and Jacob Smith, 588 00:35:34,276 --> 00:35:38,196 Speaker 1: with Tolly Emlin and Harrison VJ. Choi. Our editor is 589 00:35:38,316 --> 00:35:43,036 Speaker 1: Julia Barton. Our executive producer is miil Obel. Original scoring 590 00:35:43,076 --> 00:35:46,756 Speaker 1: by Luis Garra, mastering by Flon Williams and engineering by 591 00:35:46,836 --> 00:35:51,836 Speaker 1: Nina Lawrence. Fact checking by Keishaw Williams. I'm Malcolm Glawa.