Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the
Speaker 1: Thing from iHeart Radio. If we hearken back to the
Speaker 1: early days of COVID, many of us in the Northeast
Speaker 1: were glued to our television screens, hanging on every word
Speaker 1: of New York's Governor Andrew Cuomo in his daily press briefings.
Speaker 1: Sitting next to him, some six feet away, was his
Speaker 1: right hand secretary to the Governor and the most powerful
Speaker 1: unelected person in New York State government, Melissa de Rosa.
Speaker 1: Over the course of the next year, Cuomo was accused
Speaker 1: of sexual harassment by eleven women. Following an investigation, a
Speaker 1: few short months later, he resigned. It was a stunningly
Speaker 1: swift fall from grace. Now Melissa de Rosa is here
Speaker 1: to tell her side of the story. Her book What's
Speaker 1: Left Unsaid, My Life at the Center of Power, Politics
Speaker 1: and Crisis, details her meteoric rise in government, her experience
Speaker 1: navigating the state through COVID, and her views on the
Speaker 1: sexual harassment scandal. She takes no prisoners and sharing what
Speaker 1: she believes with the many angles being played to remove
Speaker 1: Cuomo from office. DeRosa worked her way up from an
Speaker 1: internship for Hillary Clinton to New York State director of
Speaker 1: Barack Obama's Political Action Committee, to eventually deputy chief of
Speaker 1: staff to New York State Attorney General Eric Schneiderman. I
Speaker 1: wanted to know what motivated her to leave the AG's
Speaker 1: office for the governor's when given the chance.
Speaker 2: The governor's office versus the AG's office is like going
Speaker 2: from JV Divarsity. You know, it's like you're in the
Speaker 2: AG's office. You can be involved. You can do a
Speaker 2: lot of good, bring a lot of cases to hold
Speaker 2: the big banks accountable. You know, we went after Trump
Speaker 2: University when I worked for Scheiderman, but I was watching
Speaker 2: Andrew Cuomo legalized gay marriage and passed the strongest gun
Speaker 2: safety laws in the country after Sandy Hook and you know, build,
Speaker 2: rebuild the tappan Zee Bridge. And so, I mean, the
Speaker 2: governor's office is where I think, outside of the White House,
Speaker 2: you can affect the most sweeping change for the most
Speaker 2: amount of people at once. And so that was a
Speaker 2: place I always aspire to go.
Speaker 1: And then you go over there, and it's kind of
Speaker 1: around the mid line of his first term. Yep, he's
Speaker 1: elected in twenty ten. He assumes office in twenty eleven.
Speaker 1: You go in twenty thirteen.
Speaker 3: Yep, that's right, April twenty thirteen.
Speaker 1: What had you heard about him in advance of you
Speaker 1: going over there? Because I have. I mean, I've heard
Speaker 1: a lot of stories about you. Let's just say this.
Speaker 1: Andrew Cuomo was somebody all my life I've known as
Speaker 1: a guy who was a brass knuckles guy. He's tough,
Speaker 1: and the reason he was treated differently was because when
Speaker 1: Republicans do that, nobody blinks.
Speaker 3: Yep.
Speaker 1: When you're a monster like Trump, a lot of Republicans
Speaker 1: they crave them, whereas the Democrats is a more kind
Speaker 1: of starchy Ivy League bow Tide, you know, moy and
Speaker 1: a half and Docaucus, McGovern Jean McCarthy, that kind of got.
Speaker 1: A Democrat that can throw a punch terrifies people. He
Speaker 1: terrifies the right wing and terrifies that side of the aisle.
Speaker 1: And Andrew can throw a punch. Andrew is known as
Speaker 1: a tough, tough guy and a no holds barred guy
Speaker 1: when he needs to. Yep, is that the reputation you
Speaker 1: knew before you went over there?
Speaker 2: I did, and he you know, also, I knew exactly
Speaker 2: what I was getting into. He was a notorious micromanager.
Speaker 2: He was a workaholic. He was first in the door
Speaker 2: in the morning, last out at the end of the day.
Speaker 2: And people forget because New York is so democratic that
Speaker 2: when he first took over, there was a Republican Senate.
Speaker 2: And so the year before he took office, the Democrats
Speaker 2: were in charge of the Senate the Assembly, and Patterson,
Speaker 2: who's a Democrat, was governor. They put gay marriage on
Speaker 2: the floor and it goes up in flames. Andrew Cuomos,
Speaker 2: you know, assumes office the next year, he's got a
Speaker 2: Republican Senate. He gets gay marriage done with four Republican senators.
Speaker 2: And so he was tough, and he could throw a punch,
Speaker 2: but more than any thing, he was incredibly affected, smart
Speaker 2: and smart. He knew how to move the pieces on
Speaker 2: the chessboard in a way that no other politician I've
Speaker 2: ever seen can, which you know, he grew up living
Speaker 2: it through osmosis with his father, and you know, it
Speaker 2: was just sort of in his blood. So, yeah, he
Speaker 2: had a reputation for being incredibly demanding and difficult to
Speaker 2: work for, but in a rewarding way.
Speaker 1: And he was also beyond being the son of the
Speaker 1: former governor. He was the ag.
Speaker 3: Himself, yep, and had secretary.
Speaker 1: Secretary, so we had quite a bit of a He
Speaker 1: had quite a resume before going to the two Albany.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he managed his father's campaign actually in when
Speaker 2: he was twenty years old and his father ran for governor,
Speaker 2: the first time he managed his campaign. So you know,
Speaker 2: he was involved in sort of bare knuckle politics since
Speaker 2: he was a teenager.
Speaker 1: But you kind of knew what you were getting into.
Speaker 3: Oh, definitely.
Speaker 1: And then you're there in twenty thirteen, and Cuomo resigns
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty one, twenty twenty one. But in twenty eighteen,
Speaker 1: Schneidermann resigns. Yep, your former boss resigns, And so it
Speaker 1: seems like you know, in New York in and around
Speaker 1: that time, Patterson, the hocal of his day, becomes governor
Speaker 1: because Spitzer, who's always the smartest guy in the room, resigned.
Speaker 1: There's sex scandal in the air everywhere in Albany.
Speaker 3: Everywhere, although different brands of sex scandal.
Speaker 2: But yes, you know, look, I think the scandal follows politicians.
Speaker 2: Politicians sometimes get over their skis. They're in power for
Speaker 2: too long, they think they're invincible, and then in other instances,
Speaker 2: like what I argue in the book with Cuomo, I
Speaker 2: think it was more about political opportunism and taking a
Speaker 2: shot to weaponize things that were actually every day interactions,
Speaker 2: like kissing someone on the cheek and putting your hand
Speaker 2: on their waist for a photograph and acting like that
Speaker 2: was sexual harassment. But the one thing that's tried and
Speaker 2: true is that sex kills democrats. You know, if there's
Speaker 2: an allegation, it's as good as a guilty verdict and
Speaker 2: you're out. The party has no patience for due process
Speaker 2: or for trying to get through any of the details.
Speaker 2: And so that is one constant theme you saw with
Speaker 2: al Franken. You know, you see it all the time.
Speaker 1: Were there any other opportunities you had? Was it automatically
Speaker 1: going to be something like that, or was there ever
Speaker 1: a thought? I mean, I'm not saying this to be kind.
Speaker 1: You're a tough, smart, committed you work hard. You worked
Speaker 1: hard in the book you talk about the costs to
Speaker 1: you of working on personally and otherwise, and you work hard.
Speaker 1: Were there every thoughts of going and making some money somewhere?
Speaker 3: You know, it's a lot of different things. Do it
Speaker 3: for a lot of different people.
Speaker 2: I love public service, and I felt fulfilled by putting
Speaker 2: in the hours and the reward was passing sweeping legislation.
Speaker 2: So I love public service, and I never for one
Speaker 2: minute contemplated going out into the private sector and monetizing
Speaker 2: those skills.
Speaker 1: When you see that sex scandal, for example, plays the
Speaker 1: way it does not only in the democratic sphere, but
Speaker 1: I also think in the more media center. I think
Speaker 1: you can do whatever the hell you want to in
Speaker 1: Wyoming or South Dakota and there's less chance you're going
Speaker 1: to get caught. This is the media capital of the world. Yep.
Speaker 1: And when you're playing your cards a certain way and
Speaker 1: you're in New York, you better watch out. There's a
Speaker 1: lot of eyes on you.
Speaker 3: Yes, that's that's absolutely that your.
Speaker 1: Job to try to encourage them to remember that.
Speaker 3: I mean, not really.
Speaker 2: It wasn't anything that was ever an Andrew Cuomo thing.
Speaker 2: You know, Andrew Cuomo was a lot of things. People
Speaker 2: labeled him a bully, people, you know, accused him of
Speaker 2: being two bipartisan and working with Republicans when they said
Speaker 2: you should only work with Democrats.
Speaker 3: He was accused of a lot of.
Speaker 2: Things over the years, but The one thing he was
Speaker 2: never accused of was anything involving sexual harassment or anything
Speaker 2: coming close to that, which is why when this scandal
Speaker 2: started to unfurl, it was like as if I was
Speaker 2: in the twilight zone, because it was so far removed
Speaker 2: from anything he had ever been known to be or
Speaker 2: anyone thought he was.
Speaker 1: Now when he starts to go down in this whole thing,
Speaker 1: and all of this up because I'm gonna ask you
Speaker 1: to read a passage from your book, Okay, I really
Speaker 1: want desperately for you to read this, because it's so
Speaker 1: amazing this It's so chocked with information and thoughts and
Speaker 1: so forth and important things. The when this starts to
Speaker 1: go down, who do you think was responsible, if not
Speaker 1: for creating or engineering, but who do you think really
Speaker 1: carried the ball in terms of bringing him down over
Speaker 1: a sexual charge.
Speaker 2: Well, there were two people that I really like lay
Speaker 2: it at their feet. One is Lindsay Boylan, who sort
Speaker 2: of created this whole stampede from the beginning, and I
Speaker 2: go through it in my book in painstaking detail. But
Speaker 2: she had been threatening our staff and saying that we
Speaker 2: were changing petitioning rules for Congress in order to hurt
Speaker 2: her even though we were doing in the middle of
Speaker 2: pandemic for everyone was totally devoid of reality, you know,
Speaker 2: promises retribution, says in these text messages to senior staff,
Speaker 2: my life is long, and so are my memory, and
Speaker 2: so is my resources. You know, she says all these
Speaker 2: things on Twitter that turned out to be wise in
Speaker 2: any event. She was driving the train trying to actively
Speaker 2: recruit women to come out against the governor, even you know,
Speaker 2: little things like kiss on the cheek, hand on the
Speaker 2: waist and acting like this is an accuser and accusing
Speaker 2: number two because number three she was doing that. But
Speaker 2: it was Tiss James who carried this ball over the line.
Speaker 1: Why do you think that was? What was her game?
Speaker 2: Very simple, you know, talking about Barrey knuckle politics. The
Speaker 2: woman wanted to be governor, right, and we said it
Speaker 2: all along, and people said you're crazy, and then lo
Speaker 2: and behold. You know, as soon as we're out of
Speaker 2: office one month later, boom, Tish James announces she's running
Speaker 2: for governor. So the goal for her was very clear
Speaker 2: and obvious to us all along, and a lot of
Speaker 2: people tried to say no, no, no, this has something
Speaker 2: to do with it. And then the minute we were out,
Speaker 2: she pivoted to run, so, you know, bare knuckle politics.
Speaker 1: So Cuomo was elected in twenty ten, twenty fourteen, twenty.
Speaker 2: Eighteen by massive margins, and he's assumed to have a
Speaker 2: very good chance at achieving the unthinkable, which is.
Speaker 1: A fourth term, yes, which was unavailable to Pataki, to
Speaker 1: his father to three term governors. Or was it was
Speaker 1: Mario two terms?
Speaker 3: Mario did three and then yeah he.
Speaker 1: Lost and Protack three terms each. Yep, and Andrew's going
Speaker 1: to get the pull the rabbit out of the hatt
Speaker 1: and get a fourth term. Yep. Now, James declared when
Speaker 1: Andrew resigns in twenty twenty.
Speaker 2: One, so the governor Cuomo resigns in August of twenty
Speaker 2: twenty one. She announces she's running for governor in October
Speaker 2: of twenty twenty one, so you know, she lets six
Speaker 2: weeks go by.
Speaker 3: But the body was still warm.
Speaker 2: Decent time, yes, and she announces she's running and then amazingly, look,
Speaker 2: she's not very talented, she's not very articulate on the stump,
Speaker 2: she wasn't raising a lot of money, and so her
Speaker 2: race lasted about two months and then she dropped out
Speaker 2: and she decided she was just going to run for
Speaker 2: AG again and lean in on Trump, and so that's
Speaker 2: what she did.
Speaker 1: Now you have some very choice words for Hochel, and
Speaker 1: some of my favorite passages, regardless of my feelings, are
Speaker 1: lack thereof of support for Hokeel. I do see that
Speaker 1: New York politics, of course, when number one on the
Speaker 1: call sheet is gone and the lieutenant governor a purely
Speaker 1: ceremonial position my entire life. People said to me the
Speaker 1: state wide offices are two Senate seats, governor, comptroller, and
Speaker 1: AG and that the lieutenant governorship is just a ceremonial,
Speaker 1: bullshit thing for the campaign. But we have entered a
Speaker 1: phase now where a statewide office in this country is
Speaker 1: occupied by some pretty listless, colorless people. Why do you
Speaker 1: think that is?
Speaker 2: You know, look, I feel the same way. I'm disappointed
Speaker 2: by government at every level right now. It feels like
Speaker 2: a lot of people who sort of have been hanging
Speaker 2: around the hoop and then they get their slot, and
Speaker 2: then it's all they care about is staying in power
Speaker 2: and not doing anything with it while they're there. And
Speaker 2: I was actually saying this to someone the other day.
Speaker 2: You know, in terms of both the migrant crisis, and
Speaker 2: also post COVID New York, where this should be a
Speaker 2: moment of opportunity where we're reimagining what the city can
Speaker 2: be and we're getting creative about dealing with vacant storefronts
Speaker 2: and empty office buildings, and instead you know nothing. And
Speaker 2: I think about, you know, ten years ago, love him
Speaker 2: or hate him, but you know, Bloomberg was mayor Andrew
Speaker 2: Cuomo was governor, and what it looked like when you
Speaker 2: had two really super talented executives at the helm. But
Speaker 2: I think that we're in a bad place right now
Speaker 2: where there's this sort of mentality if you wait in line,
Speaker 2: it's your turn, then you get to do it, and
Speaker 2: the democratic machinery falls in line. There are no primaries
Speaker 2: for these high profile positions, and so it just allows
Speaker 2: the cycle of sort of sluggishness and listlessness to use
Speaker 2: your word, to perpetuate. And New York, I'm sorry, is
Speaker 2: the greatest state in the country, and so you'd think
Speaker 2: we'd be attracting better talent.
Speaker 3: But I also think there is this dynamic very deep.
Speaker 2: The bench isn't deep it all. And I think there
Speaker 2: also is this dynamic now where there are some really
Speaker 2: talented people in the private sector who don't want to
Speaker 2: go near politics because they think to themselves, if I
Speaker 2: do that, I'm going to be destroyed in the media.
Speaker 2: People are going to come after me. My personal life
Speaker 2: is going to be distorted, exposed. So we're we're in
Speaker 2: a bad position, and there needs to be a disruption
Speaker 2: of the status quo, and it has to happen soon.
Speaker 1: We do have this dearth, We do have this shortage
Speaker 1: of people who would make great leaders. You mentioned the
Speaker 1: twin cylinders of Cuomo with Bloomberg. I thought Bloomberg was
Speaker 1: somebody who would have been better in a body like
Speaker 1: the Senate. I think Bloomberg on his own as an executive,
Speaker 1: which is what he was He's been his whole life,
Speaker 1: the executive calling the shots and in charge. It wasn't
Speaker 1: so great because he spent ninety million dollars of his
Speaker 1: own money on three races.
Speaker 3: Yes he bought the election, well, yes, he certainly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he certainly used his own money leveraged that money
Speaker 2: to win. But I always felt like Bloomberg was incredibly competent.
Speaker 2: And the mayor of New York City's job essentially is
Speaker 2: police and garbage. It's please garbage, education, and at least
Speaker 2: during that period of time, I think people felt really
Speaker 2: confident about the leadership coming out of city Hall.
Speaker 3: There was no corruption. He wasn't someone who could be bought.
Speaker 2: He kept the trains moving on time, the city was
Speaker 2: at its all time best in terms of safety, Businesses
Speaker 2: were coming in, and so I thought he was a
Speaker 2: phenomenal executive.
Speaker 1: Melissa DeRosa If you enjoy conversations with brilliant, highly skilled
Speaker 1: political aids, be sure to check out my episode with
Speaker 1: Huma Abadeen, Hillary Clinton's chief of staff.
Speaker 4: To some extent, there was crisis all around me. It's
Speaker 4: one of the reasons I share in the book this
Speaker 4: story about the first time I staff Hillary and her
Speaker 4: speech is forgotten in the car and she calls me
Speaker 4: on to stage and I'm this kid, I'm barely twenty one,
Speaker 4: don't have the speech. And that was the moment, the
Speaker 4: moment where you basically either fall apart or say I
Speaker 4: got it. I can fix this. And I fixed it
Speaker 4: in that moment. That was twenty six years ago, and
Speaker 4: I have always figured it out, and I actually think
Speaker 4: I have figured out that I'm pretty good at it.
Speaker 1: To hear more of my conversation with Huma Abadeen go
Speaker 1: to Here's the Thing dot org. After the Break, Melissa
Speaker 1: DeRosa shares what it was like during the loneliest point
Speaker 1: of her life as friends and allies fell away while
Speaker 1: the accusations stacked up against Andrew Cuomo. I'm Alec Baldwin,
Speaker 1: and you're listening to Here's the Thing. Melissa DeRosa's book
Speaker 1: What's Left Unsaid gives a detailed account of the unfolding
Speaker 1: of the sexual harassment scandal involving Governor Andrew Cuomo in
Speaker 1: twenty twenty one. I wanted her to share a passage
Speaker 1: from her book, reflecting on this time as she and
Speaker 1: Cuomo's inner circle attempted to navigate the crisis.
Speaker 2: I hung up and walked outside to see the Governor
Speaker 2: sitting at the round table on the patio, the same
Speaker 2: table we had sat at so many times in the
Speaker 2: last eight years, with his family, with senior staff, smoking cigars,
Speaker 2: debating policy, laughing, arguing. Melissa, what's going on? The governor asked,
Speaker 2: responding to my drawn face. There was no way to
Speaker 2: sugarcoat this one. There's a rumor going around that Sheriff
Speaker 2: Apple is going to arrest you, I said, Governor. The
Speaker 2: legislature is going to impeach you. The facts don't matter.
Speaker 2: They aren't going to scrutinize a damn thing in that report.
Speaker 2: The Senate has the votes, christ to the majority leader
Speaker 2: publicly announced she's one of them. The far left in
Speaker 2: her conference wanted you out before any of this. They
Speaker 2: used this to do it. The Governor heard every word
Speaker 2: I said, nodded his head and looked over at Steph.
Speaker 2: Can you get your laptop. I have a speech to write.
Speaker 2: At that point, I didn't know what speech he was
Speaker 2: going to write. I'm not sure he did either. With
Speaker 2: every passing hour, I could feel the walls closing in.
Speaker 2: I didn't know who I could trust or where I
Speaker 2: could turn. My phone was constantly ringing with unsolicited advice
Speaker 2: from legislators, outside consultants, and our remaining senior staff, each
Speaker 2: with their own agenda. I was lost in a fog
Speaker 2: of trying to discern whether the council I was receiving
Speaker 2: was to benefit the administration or the person calling. And
Speaker 2: as the hours went on, I could feel the inner
Speaker 2: shrinking details about private discussions I had with longtime colleagues,
Speaker 2: people I truly believed were real friends, about the state
Speaker 2: of my emotional well being suddenly appeared in the news
Speaker 2: stories crediting blind sources with quote direct knowledge wrapped in betrayal.
Speaker 2: I could count on one hand the number of people
Speaker 2: I believed I could talk to you. Honestly, I had
Speaker 2: never felt more alone.
Speaker 1: What does that bring back?
Speaker 2: That was at the bottom, That was the bottom, That
Speaker 2: was the bottom. I resigned, I think a day after
Speaker 2: that passage.
Speaker 1: Adler told you to resign.
Speaker 3: Norman Adler told me to resign.
Speaker 1: I've just said the governor is a big boy.
Speaker 2: Yep, he's a big boy. My longtime mentor said, he's
Speaker 2: a big boy.
Speaker 3: He can do it. You've got to get yourself out
Speaker 3: of ra former partner, my father's former business partner.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And he said to me at that time, which I
Speaker 2: do think was true and prescient. He said, in a
Speaker 2: year or two, people are going to look back and
Speaker 2: see this all differently. They're going to recognize it for
Speaker 2: the hysteria that it is, and he will figure this out.
Speaker 2: But today, you've got to get yourself out of there.
Speaker 1: Right when you say there, each with an agenda of
Speaker 1: their own. Yep. I'm going to assume based on my
Speaker 1: own experience from knowing people in political life and flirting
Speaker 1: with going into publics myself years ago, and this kind
Speaker 1: of thing that there's just nothing like that world. When
Speaker 1: there's blood in the water, when they see that you're wounded, yep,
Speaker 1: they all go to high ground. They're all gone.
Speaker 2: They're gone, and each of them have their eye on
Speaker 2: their own brass ring. You know, if you're out of
Speaker 2: the way, then the next person can move up, and
Speaker 2: that means I can move up.
Speaker 3: And if those people.
Speaker 2: Are out of the top jobs and are no longer
Speaker 2: a chief of staff or commissioners or whatever, then then
Speaker 2: other crop of people we can put in those positions.
Speaker 2: And so that day that I reflect on in the book,
Speaker 2: that's what I said, I had never felt more alone,
Speaker 2: and I didn't know who I could trust. And you
Speaker 2: go from one end where during COVID you're these national
Speaker 2: international heroes that the world is relying on to get
Speaker 2: through the day, and then you swing a year later
Speaker 2: and people are trying to force you out with the
Speaker 2: sort of created you know, manufactured scandal and how quickly
Speaker 2: you're disposable.
Speaker 3: And it was a really terrible time.
Speaker 2: And it was after a year of dealing with COVID
Speaker 2: as I write in the book, I was sleeping three
Speaker 2: hour nights, hard work, laying on the floor of my office,
Speaker 2: and crying at the end of the day after calling
Speaker 2: the family members of the healthcare workers who died, struggling
Speaker 2: with my mental health on the weight of the decisions
Speaker 2: we were making, literally life and death. And then it's
Speaker 2: like fast forward a year and a half later, and
Speaker 2: this is how you.
Speaker 3: Think public You were married at the time.
Speaker 2: I was married at the beginning of COVID, and but
Speaker 2: we were separated, which I also talked about in the book.
Speaker 2: We were separated. We told, we said to each other,
Speaker 2: we weren't going to tell anyone was going on. I
Speaker 2: was getting a ton of media attention. I could I
Speaker 2: didn't want it to be in the tabloids. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: so I was struggling with you knowed my marriage, Yes.
Speaker 3: I could have, but no.
Speaker 2: And so it was, you know, struggling with that isolation
Speaker 2: and not only separating from my husband and my marriage
Speaker 2: falling apart, but also sort of lying to everyone around
Speaker 2: us about the state of our marriage because we didn't
Speaker 2: want the public attention, we didn't want the scrutiny. So, yeah,
Speaker 2: it was that those two years is like nothing I've
Speaker 2: ever experienced and wish on nobody.
Speaker 1: And when your marriage ended, it seemed like from what
Speaker 1: was in the book that you you that he was
Speaker 1: basically laying his cards on the table that you weren't
Speaker 1: available to him. Yes, work was your mistress.
Speaker 2: Yes, essentially, Well, we met together at work. I was
Speaker 2: technically his boss, and we started dating while at work.
Speaker 2: And then actual no no for Quoma Andrew.
Speaker 1: What was he doing for him?
Speaker 2: He was his press secretary and I was communications director,
Speaker 2: so I was directly his boss. And he asked me out,
Speaker 2: and we had dinner thirty nights in a row, and
Speaker 2: he wanted to be my boyfriend, and I said I
Speaker 2: can't do that because it's technically not allowed.
Speaker 1: And he you did warn him.
Speaker 2: I did warn him, and you know, then he leaves
Speaker 2: the we get married, and as it turned out, and
Speaker 2: I think this is true for people in general, sometimes
Speaker 2: you come to this realization that the glue that held
Speaker 2: us together was work, and we were no longer working together,
Speaker 2: and so when we weren't in that same environment day
Speaker 2: to day, we just didn't have that same connection and
Speaker 2: interests and we started to grow apart.
Speaker 3: But I said to him and I write about this
Speaker 3: in the book.
Speaker 2: At one point when we got into an argument and
Speaker 2: I said, it's not like I you know, there was
Speaker 2: deceptive marketing here.
Speaker 3: You met me at work. I came as advertised.
Speaker 2: But you know, you push as much as you can,
Speaker 2: you hold on as long as you can, and then
Speaker 2: at a certain point, you know, such as life.
Speaker 1: I want to go back to You're born in Rochester
Speaker 1: or Albany.
Speaker 3: No, I was born in Rochester.
Speaker 1: What was your dad doing there? Then?
Speaker 3: He was district director for Louis Slaughter, who was a congresswoman.
Speaker 3: I know Louis yep.
Speaker 2: So I started off, you know, four year old kid
Speaker 2: on the campaign trail with dad, learning about politics young
Speaker 2: and as his career evolved over time, and it brought
Speaker 2: him to Albany, and we moved our family to Albany.
Speaker 2: You know, I was alongside him every step of the way.
Speaker 2: I considered us to be partners. I was reading multiple
Speaker 2: newspapers at twelve, and I was, you know, shadowing him
Speaker 2: in the Capitol at fourteen and watching meet the press
Speaker 2: since I, you know, was like able to.
Speaker 3: Hold a thought, and so goes to Washington. No.
Speaker 2: Well, when Sawner was in Washington and she was a congresswoman.
Speaker 2: He was, he worked for her, but in regious in Rochester. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but then he you know, went.
Speaker 1: To gold say Capital, you would go with him to Washington.
Speaker 2: No, No, I'm saying. Then when we moved to Albany
Speaker 2: and he was doing business in Albany in.
Speaker 3: The state, what did you start doing there? He was political.
Speaker 2: Director for the Public Employees Federation, which is one of
Speaker 2: the biggest unions in the country. So yeah, so he
Speaker 2: took up the union movement and he spent years and
Speaker 2: years doing union politics, and so I would shadow him
Speaker 2: there and I just I had an early love for
Speaker 2: politics and government.
Speaker 3: It was just in my blood too.
Speaker 1: But when you're working with your father in Albany, when
Speaker 1: did you begin to get a sense of something that
Speaker 1: I'm always mindful of because you know, the Brennan Center
Speaker 1: for Justice and then my law school that I worked
Speaker 1: with very closely years ago about campaign finance reform, YEP.
Speaker 1: They would write a paper every year, and one paper
Speaker 1: they wrote several years ago, many years ago, was about
Speaker 1: an evaluation of all the fifty state houses in the
Speaker 1: United States YEP, and the fiftieth and always the fiftieth
Speaker 1: and probably forever. The fiftieth was Louisiana and forty.
Speaker 3: Ninth always need it. Albany, yep, they said it.
Speaker 1: In terms of effectiveness, corruption, yep, mismanagement, you name it.
Speaker 1: That said this is one of the worst state houses.
Speaker 1: What was it when you were there? Did you pick
Speaker 1: up on that? Why is Albany so dysfunctional?
Speaker 2: There was a period and it's interesting because I feel
Speaker 2: like the governor hasn't Cuomo hasn't gotten enough credit for this.
Speaker 2: But the campaign finance laws in New York are the
Speaker 2: most ridiculous of any anything in the country, not the city,
Speaker 2: but the state. I mean, individual contribution limits at sixty
Speaker 2: grand a person. You know, you can There was an
Speaker 2: LLC loophole for a long time where a person gets
Speaker 2: set up fifteen LLC's and give two hundred grand up,
Speaker 2: you know, a pop through each of their LLC's, which
Speaker 2: a lot of these real estate guys actually did.
Speaker 3: I mean, it sounds ridiculous, but they actually did exploit
Speaker 3: it and do it.
Speaker 2: And so over the years, I think we've done a
Speaker 2: pretty decent job of reigning it in. In twenty nineteen,
Speaker 2: so right before, you know, two years before we resigned,
Speaker 2: we actually enacted a public campaign finance system, which is
Speaker 2: supposed to go in effect for this upcoming election. And
Speaker 2: what's interesting is for a long time we couldn't get
Speaker 2: it done because the Republicans in the Senate were against it. Finally,
Speaker 2: the stars aligned, we had the Democratic Senate and Assembly
Speaker 2: and we were going to get this done. And then
Speaker 2: last year, when we were out of office, the legislature
Speaker 2: actually watered down the public campaign finance limits and the
Speaker 2: rules in order to allow more money back into the system,
Speaker 2: and the governor signed that bill. And so it's interesting
Speaker 2: to watch because Democrats, you know, have a lot of
Speaker 2: swagger when it comes to talking about these issues, but
Speaker 2: then when they're in charge, they want to do everything
Speaker 2: they can.
Speaker 3: To stay in charge.
Speaker 2: So, you know, I do think that that step was
Speaker 2: a step in the right direction, and we'll see how
Speaker 2: it goes. But you know, I blame the campaign finance laws.
Speaker 1: As do why because by nature, I'm sure and I've
Speaker 1: examined this quite deeply because of my commitment to campaign
Speaker 1: finance reform. I've written papers, I've given speeches in Congress
Speaker 1: where I've mentioned how campaign finance reform is the lynchpin
Speaker 1: of all the problems in this country.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, you're never going to get people to come and
Speaker 1: run for Incumbency is too powerful. And with that in mind,
Speaker 1: I'm not telling you anything fresh. This is your career.
Speaker 1: But I said I was never a term limits person.
Speaker 1: But when you say to me, when these idiots say
Speaker 1: to me that elections are themselves term limits, I want
Speaker 1: to go, well, not really, incumbency is such. I mean
Speaker 1: people who like to take Hogel. Hogel assumes office in
Speaker 1: twenty twenty one. When he resigns, she's eligible for her
Speaker 1: own full term the following year, and she gets elected
Speaker 1: to a full term, so she gets what she's craving
Speaker 1: like Patterson. But Patterson did not win a full term.
Speaker 3: Patterson did not want to right.
Speaker 1: Which which I truly truly thought that Hogel would not
Speaker 1: win a full term.
Speaker 2: She almost didn't. I mean, when you look at the numbers,
Speaker 2: it's crazy. An a state in New York where there's
Speaker 2: only twenty two percent statewide registered Republicans.
Speaker 3: The guy that was running against her.
Speaker 2: Lee Zelden, is a maga election denial Yeah, anti choice,
Speaker 2: you know, just the worst across its yes, everything, and
Speaker 2: he she only beats him by five points after she
Speaker 2: raised a record sixty million dollars, which just I think
Speaker 2: goes to show you how little support she actually does have.
Speaker 2: And I actually think the only reason she eked it
Speaker 2: out in the end was because all of a sudden,
Speaker 2: the tabloids were saying Zelden could win, Zelden could Winzelden
Speaker 2: who could win? So I started hearing from people that
Speaker 2: I know that didn't like her at all, but said,
Speaker 2: I have to turn out or else we could end
Speaker 2: up with like a mini Trump in the governor's office.
Speaker 2: So I think the fear that was created by the
Speaker 2: New York Post, which they thought was beneficial to them
Speaker 2: in momentum, I think, blew up in their face and
Speaker 2: actually created a wave where a lot of people turned
Speaker 2: out to vote who otherwise would have stayed home. But
Speaker 2: she just eked it out. I mean, for New York,
Speaker 2: we used to when you know, by fifteen twenty points,
Speaker 2: and for her to win with five against someone like
Speaker 2: that in a state like this is crazy.
Speaker 1: Hochel wins. And I'm wondering with your knowledge of state
Speaker 1: politics when someone like Hochel wins re election even though
Speaker 1: it was by a paltry margin, who are her supporters
Speaker 1: Now who's behind her, What organizations, institution's political powers does
Speaker 1: she have in her pocket? Now?
Speaker 2: You know, look, it's people who have a direct interest
Speaker 2: in whatever is going to get done in Albany. It's
Speaker 2: incredibly transactional. So whoever needs something from her is going
Speaker 2: to continue to support her. But what I find fascinating is,
Speaker 2: you know, I don't really see the women's groups out
Speaker 2: with that much energy. I actually just saw Sienna came
Speaker 2: out with a poll a couple of weeks ago with
Speaker 2: her latest numbers women, she's forty four, forty two. I mean,
Speaker 2: she barely has you know, supportive women in this state.
Speaker 2: She's underwater with almost every category in the state, in
Speaker 2: a state that's this democratic, and so she doesn't have
Speaker 2: a lot of support from actual people, where she has
Speaker 2: supporters from lobbyists, from interest groups who've got an agenda
Speaker 2: at Albany. Yeah, well and barely. I mean, they'll support
Speaker 2: her in so far as they'll fill her campaign coffer,
Speaker 2: but it's not like you know, the reason Zelden got
Speaker 2: so close is because union workers, specifically those in the
Speaker 2: building trades and other blue collar areas, turned out and
Speaker 2: voted for Zelden. So the leadership may be aligned with
Speaker 2: her politically and in terms of filling her coffers and
Speaker 2: taking meetings with her and holding events for her, but
Speaker 2: their members aren't with her.
Speaker 1: I remember people would explain to me, because my family,
Speaker 1: a big chunk of my family lives in upstate New York.
Speaker 1: Many people who analyzed state politics and would regard Cuomo
Speaker 1: a certain way thought he'd done something, you know, very
Speaker 1: shrewd and very very practical, which was, you know, the
Speaker 1: five boroughs you got in your pocket, that's blue, blue, blue.
Speaker 1: Not thing's ever going to change that. And Long Island
Speaker 1: is red, red red. There might be some little ribbons
Speaker 1: there that are but you're never going to deliver a
Speaker 1: serious number of Democratic votes on Long Island. Now, the
Speaker 1: real orchard for votes is Central New York and Upstate
Speaker 1: New York. And the Cuomo learned to play center Republicans
Speaker 1: and manipulate center Republicans and got votes in passed legislation.
Speaker 1: And although his numbers, mind that have been dramatically different.
Speaker 1: He put a lot of his attention and a lot
Speaker 1: of the state's money into Upstate New York. Is that true?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: No, He focused a tremendous He believed that Upstate New
Speaker 2: York got short shrift for a long time. It did,
Speaker 2: and so when he came into office, he said, I'm
Speaker 2: going to reorient the power structure, and I'm going to
Speaker 2: put a lot more time, attention and money into Buffalo, Syracuse, Albany, Rochester,
Speaker 2: the North Country, the Southern Tier, yep. And so we
Speaker 2: spent a lot of time trying to build up the
Speaker 2: local economies, trying to revitalize those downtowns. But you know,
Speaker 2: when we were there, we got the support of Long Island.
Speaker 2: It's really interesting. The other night, you know, everyone said
Speaker 2: watch Ohio, Watch Virginia. When I was watching the returns
Speaker 2: come in, I said, no, no, no, watch Suffolk County, because
Speaker 2: that to me is bellweather. You know, like, now all
Speaker 2: the Long Island to your point is now completely read.
Speaker 2: Whereas when we ran in twenty eighteen Andrew Cuomo one
Speaker 2: both NASA and Suffolk. There were democratic county executives of
Speaker 2: Nasau and Suffolk. And so to me, watching Long Island
Speaker 2: is sort of like a bell weather for the suburbs
Speaker 2: around the country. Yeah, and so I keep my eye
Speaker 2: on Long Island because I think so goes Long Island,
Speaker 2: so goes the country. And it's interesting because I think
Speaker 2: that people paid way too much attention to what happened
Speaker 2: on that abortion referendum in Ohio, which of course that
Speaker 2: was going to win Roe v. Wade polls at seventy percent. Nationwide,
Speaker 2: the Republicans are wildly out of step on that issue.
Speaker 2: So when you put it on a ballot in a
Speaker 2: place like Ohio, it didn't shock me that it passed
Speaker 2: with fifty seven percent. In fact, I was surprised it
Speaker 2: didn't go with sixty percent. But I was like, look
Speaker 2: at Virginia the legislature which did hold democratic went democratic.
Speaker 2: But then also look at what happened in Suffolk County,
Speaker 2: And that's where I think politically going into next year,
Speaker 2: we need to keep our eye on is what's going
Speaker 2: to happen in the suburbs, because that will decide the elections.
Speaker 1: Melissa de Rosa, if you're enjoying this conversation, tell a
Speaker 1: friend and be sure to follow here's the thing on
Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1: When we come back, Melissa DeRosa tells us why she
Speaker 1: believes that Trump will be president again and what we
Speaker 1: might do to prevent it. I'm Alec Baldwin, and you're
Speaker 1: listening to here's the thing. As Director of Communications, chief
Speaker 1: of Staff, and then Secretary to the Governor of New York,
Speaker 1: Melissa de Rosa has held multiple positions of tremendous power
Speaker 1: and influence, yet her college days happened to play a
Speaker 1: significant role in her path to state government.
Speaker 3: I went to Cornell.
Speaker 2: I am a true upstate girl, born in Rochester, lived
Speaker 2: in Saratoga. In Albany, I did Industrial and labor relations,
Speaker 2: which is unions. They have a very specific course on
Speaker 2: negotiating arbitration, you know, the union world that I did undergrad,
Speaker 2: and then I did my master's there too, in public administration.
Speaker 1: So you said the major is in we again.
Speaker 3: Industrial and labor relations.
Speaker 1: Is it safe to say the Cornell with that kind
Speaker 1: of program as a pipeline to Albany.
Speaker 2: It's exactly from that school, exactly We've been waiting for you.
Speaker 3: Yes, that's exactly right now.
Speaker 1: When you finished, did you you got a graduate degree.
Speaker 2: I took a couple of years off in between, and
Speaker 2: then went back. I went to d C. And I
Speaker 2: worked for a Member of Congress on the Hill as
Speaker 2: her press secretary. I managed the Nity of Alaskaz from Brooklyn,
Speaker 2: and I managed a couple of campaigns.
Speaker 3: I was doing communications.
Speaker 2: I actually did a very brief stint right out of
Speaker 2: college and fashion, which my father.
Speaker 3: Was not thrilled. I did that for about a year.
Speaker 3: It was like my moment of rebellion. I always loved fashion.
Speaker 2: I met somebody who offered me a job as a
Speaker 2: fashion polysist for theory theory.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, they're doing well, Yeah, they're doing great. And
Speaker 3: so I made some money there. I could have made
Speaker 3: some money there. I loved it.
Speaker 2: That's how I learned about page six and about you know,
Speaker 2: all of these various place I see the cool people
Speaker 2: hang out with York. And then I went into politics,
Speaker 2: and I was like fashion to politics sort of a
Speaker 2: lateral move, but no, so otherwise I've just been doing this,
Speaker 2: you know, since I was literally almost in diapers.
Speaker 1: Incredible, just talking to you for forty five minutes. Your
Speaker 1: brain is like that twelve cylinder engine that I see
Speaker 1: with so many people in your field, which is a
Speaker 1: mastery of both facts and perspectives.
Speaker 3: Well, thank you.
Speaker 1: The mastery of both, which is like, here's what the
Speaker 1: facts are and here's so I want you to understand
Speaker 1: them and how I want to shape the discussion with
Speaker 1: you often leads to people being you know, there's really
Speaker 1: no place else for them to go. The type of
Speaker 1: person who not just goes into your field, but they
Speaker 1: go into your field and they excel a certain kind
Speaker 1: of a you know that they just have their brain
Speaker 1: is seething all the time with all this information. Did
Speaker 1: you at any point think you wanted out you wanted
Speaker 1: to get out? No? Never, never. If you could see
Speaker 1: her face right now, it's priceless, she's like, no, no, actually, no.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well there was.
Speaker 2: There was one point I almost left the governor in
Speaker 2: the summer of twenty twenty, after the first wave of
Speaker 2: COVID had sort of normalized, and we were incredibly close
Speaker 2: with then Vice President Biden and his team, and there
Speaker 2: was a period of time where the governor and I
Speaker 2: were talking to their team about me leaving the governor
Speaker 2: and going to work on Biden's team for the end
Speaker 2: sprint of the election. And I almost left in August
Speaker 2: of twenty twenty to do that, but then decided that
Speaker 2: New York wasn't done with COVID, there was probably going
Speaker 2: to be a second wave.
Speaker 3: And that I could be more of more use in
Speaker 3: New York to the people of New York.
Speaker 2: And I think about all the time if I had
Speaker 2: done that and left in August of twenty twenty and
Speaker 2: I wouldn't have been there for any of the scandal,
Speaker 2: any of that twenty twenty one, what would it have
Speaker 2: looked like? And I often think about, you know what,
Speaker 2: I have been better off with my life have been different,
Speaker 2: But you know what, I stayed there until we turned
Speaker 2: off the lights, and I'm proud of the loyalty and
Speaker 2: the commitment. And at the end of the day, I
Speaker 2: don't think I would have traded it in because people
Speaker 2: needed somebody there who could stilby laser focused and get
Speaker 2: the government going while we're doing the vaccines and everything else.
Speaker 1: Of course, lots of my conversations are a very armchair
Speaker 1: with friends of mine who are not in charge of
Speaker 1: public policy. They're not government officials and so forth, state
Speaker 1: or a federal but they're powerful business people. They're people
Speaker 1: who are worth billions of dollars. And I work with
Speaker 1: them in certain charitable organizations typically and things like that,
Speaker 1: and some are my friends, and you know, they give
Speaker 1: me that very thumbnail view that COVID pushes a significant
Speaker 1: number of people out of the city. Yep, they leave.
Speaker 1: The revenue of the city is lower than it's been
Speaker 1: in forever. Yes, and the costs to fix the city
Speaker 1: are higher than ever.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 1: And we have a mayor in New York who, rather
Speaker 1: than getting into any diatribe about him one thing, I
Speaker 1: see him here and there, and I'm always aware where
Speaker 1: he's going at night. You always knew what social event
Speaker 1: he was at. But you don't hear one vowel or
Speaker 1: consonant about what he intends to do about the financial
Speaker 1: crisis in the city. What are they going to do?
Speaker 2: So he's in a terrible position, and I actually feel
Speaker 2: for him because the revenues are down. He's making drastic
Speaker 2: cuts to the state agencies which are going to end
Speaker 2: up ultimately hurting the city. And it's not because he
Speaker 2: wants to, but it's because he's got nowhere else to go.
Speaker 2: I mean, we're back to sort of ten cup, you know,
Speaker 2: of the seventies. And I think that if we don't
Speaker 2: get the crime problem under control, and they can hit
Speaker 2: me with NYPDS stats till they're blue in the face,
Speaker 2: the city does not feel as safe as it did
Speaker 2: ten years ago, five years ago, between that and the
Speaker 2: migrant crisis and the homeless crisis. If they don't start
Speaker 2: to get some of these things out under control, you're
Speaker 2: going to continue to see outward migration, which is then
Speaker 2: going to make the problem even worse. And I think
Speaker 2: that he's sort of right now underwater, especially with the
Speaker 2: migrant crisis, which by the way, was created by the
Speaker 2: federal government unilaterally with their changes to the border policies,
Speaker 2: and then we're sort of dealing with the brunt of
Speaker 2: it and not getting the money and not getting the
Speaker 2: help or the resources. So he's bogged down with that,
Speaker 2: which I really sympathize on. But you know, this is
Speaker 2: what I've said before, It's like, post COVID A crisis
Speaker 2: is an opportunity re envision what New York is going
Speaker 2: to be for the next generation. How do we attract
Speaker 2: some of these industries, these growing businesses. How do we
Speaker 2: get younger people wanting to come here, How do we
Speaker 2: get people to stay here? How do we get people
Speaker 2: who left to come back? And those conversations aren't had.
Speaker 1: We need to eliminate the real estate vacancy exemption. And
Speaker 1: then if you can't ride off.
Speaker 3: If you've got a vacant building.
Speaker 1: You have a vacant building, you can only write it
Speaker 1: off for a certain period. And I don't care if
Speaker 1: you put a sneaker store in there and it was
Speaker 1: an art gallery before, I don't care. Yeah, okay, you
Speaker 1: need to be income producing in that building and paying taxes.
Speaker 2: Yes, And I also think we need to and if
Speaker 2: there's a real problem that's structural, then we need to
Speaker 2: put incentives in place to get people in where then
Speaker 2: they're starting to make money and then they stay in
Speaker 2: for five ten year releases. But no one's having these conversations.
Speaker 2: You and I are having it sitting in a sound booth.
Speaker 2: But this should be the conversation that's driving Kathy Hochele
Speaker 2: and Eric Adams, and instead we don't hear much.
Speaker 1: That's terrible. With the time we have left. I'm assuming
Speaker 1: you've got a very mixed response to the book. People
Speaker 1: who were.
Speaker 2: You know, it's incredible. It's actually been like ninety ten positive.
Speaker 2: And I was really bracing for the other way around,
Speaker 2: because there were a lot of people who chased us
Speaker 2: out of office, and a lot of people who are
Speaker 2: very loud on social media, who you know, don't like
Speaker 2: the governor and want to see him dead and gone,
Speaker 2: And so I was really bracing, But outside of one
Speaker 2: or two outlets, it's really been very positive.
Speaker 3: It's been heartening.
Speaker 1: Actually, well, let me ask you this. I mean, the
Speaker 1: answer is probably an obvious one, but I want to
Speaker 1: hear your answer. You describe the scene when all this
Speaker 1: stuff you bring the message to the governor and there's
Speaker 1: a back and forth and he says, fuck Maureen Dowd.
Speaker 1: Why was Maureen Dowdy in your opinion someone like that?
Speaker 1: Why are some of the leading lights of the left
Speaker 1: side of the aisle so cruel?
Speaker 2: You know? I feel like that period of time, and
Speaker 2: I have an entire chapter in the book called Media
Speaker 2: Circus where I sort of go through the media's role
Speaker 2: in the takedown of the administration, and it had become
Speaker 2: an arms race, absolute arms race. And you know what
Speaker 2: it is to get wrapped up in these media cycles
Speaker 2: where they're just unrelenting, and you read things in a
Speaker 2: paper and you're like, really, that's what happened.
Speaker 3: No it didn't. I was efer, now, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2: You know, there's no standards, there's everything in that blne source,
Speaker 2: there's no truth in the press, you know all of it,
Speaker 2: and we had gotten into this place where you know,
Speaker 2: and again the manipulation of what Tiss James did in
Speaker 2: her report was she used this number eleven, and so
Speaker 2: nobody even paid attention to the details. And when you
Speaker 2: actually pull back the curtain and you see eight or
Speaker 2: nine of the eleven, our plain vanilla meet and greet,
Speaker 2: kiss on the cheek. Okay, maybe you shouldn't call someone's sweetheart,
Speaker 2: but you have to resign because of that, Like that
Speaker 2: was one of the eleven. You know, putting your hands
Speaker 2: on someone's face at a wedding as you're taking a
Speaker 2: photograph with him, These were one of the eleven. And
Speaker 2: so I think what happened was then she drops the report.
Speaker 2: She says, the number eleven. No one looks through the report,
Speaker 2: nobody reads the report, nobody cares about the details. Where
Speaker 2: there's smoke, there's fire, Oh my god, eleven. You've got
Speaker 2: to resign. And everyone who has stood by him is
Speaker 2: an enabler. And Joe Biden actually went out who had
Speaker 2: been a good friend of Andrew Cuomo's for twenty years,
Speaker 2: good friend of Mary O Cuomo's.
Speaker 3: Andrew Cuomo was a good friend with his son Bo,
Speaker 3: who died. When Bo died, Andrew Cuomo was the first
Speaker 3: person online at the week. You know, these relationships went
Speaker 3: back decades. And in the moments after this report comes out,
Speaker 3: Joe Biden goes out and says, eleven women. I didn't
Speaker 3: read the report, but I saw the press conference He's
Speaker 3: got to resign, and that created this stampede of all
Speaker 3: the politicians saying he's got to go, and the press.
Speaker 3: You know, it was all over this. So mooring doubt
Speaker 3: I write about in that in the book.
Speaker 2: That was actually what pushed me to resign, because I
Speaker 2: woke up that Sunday morning and my mother called me
Speaker 2: and she had just Hitler's enabler and she called me
Speaker 2: and she said, did you see this? And I said, Mom,
Speaker 2: how many times I told you not to read the
Speaker 2: New York Post? And she said, no, no, no, no, it
Speaker 2: was the New York Times. Yeah, exactly, you straighten there out.
Speaker 2: She said, no, it's more in doubt. And she wrote
Speaker 2: this whole column comparing me and a bunch of my
Speaker 2: other colleagues and Chris Qualmo and these people to Hitler's enablers,
Speaker 2: and also to Harvey Weinstein's enablers, and I couldn't take
Speaker 2: it anymore.
Speaker 3: I was like enabling what.
Speaker 2: Kissing someone on the cheek, by the way, which is
Speaker 2: something I see politicians do every day today while I'm
Speaker 2: sitting here with you, And so it just it was
Speaker 2: a moment of hysteria and political opportunism, and I think
Speaker 2: the state has suffered as a result, because I think
Speaker 2: it lost one of the greatest executives it's ever had.
Speaker 3: And the proof is in the pudding.
Speaker 2: I mean, look where we are today versus where we
Speaker 2: were pre COVID, It's not even close.
Speaker 1: What was the reaction you got from women about being
Speaker 1: a defender of promos?
Speaker 2: You know, the reaction I got from women in real
Speaker 2: time versus the reaction today is very stark and couldn't
Speaker 2: be more different back then. It was even from my girlfriends, Missy,
Speaker 2: what are you doing? You know, Melissa, what are you thinking?
Speaker 2: You shouldn't stand by him, You need to separate yourself
Speaker 2: from him. And today so many people say, you know,
Speaker 2: he was screwed and he was railroaded. And it's great
Speaker 2: to see a strong woman who can actually see nuance
Speaker 2: and gray and not just head for the hills and
Speaker 2: push back on some of this nonsense. And again it's
Speaker 2: not that I'm saying I don't believe these women. I
Speaker 2: believe eight or nine of them. There are photographs of
Speaker 2: these intractions. They were all in public spaces. It was
Speaker 2: the hysteria of it that I never allowed myself to
Speaker 2: succumb to, and so many women today. I mean, you
Speaker 2: should walk down the street with Andrew Cuomo in Manhattan,
Speaker 2: the you know reception he gets from people pulling over
Speaker 2: to take photographs and you were relroaded and run again
Speaker 2: and when when are you going to run again?
Speaker 3: And so I think that now.
Speaker 2: That the fog of COVID has cleared and the hysteria
Speaker 2: as well behind us, people look back at it with
Speaker 2: a much more sober assessment that was just not afforded
Speaker 2: to anybody in real.
Speaker 1: Time when I read the book. And you can comment
Speaker 1: on this. You know, your your ex husband complained about
Speaker 1: your you know, ceaseless focus on your job. And I
Speaker 1: understand that because there's people when you get married, you
Speaker 1: either get me or you don't.
Speaker 3: Yep, what would you do differently?
Speaker 1: If anything?
Speaker 3: You know, there's a.
Speaker 2: Lot of probably micro things I would differently, you know,
Speaker 2: when people ask me during COVID. You know, if you
Speaker 2: look back and would you do things differently? And I
Speaker 2: say I would do everything differently now that I you know,
Speaker 2: because we were dealing in imperfect information and now knowing
Speaker 2: what we know now retrospectively, but on a macro sense,
Speaker 2: and maybe this, you know, I'm such a screwed up
Speaker 2: human being that I would say this. But I don't
Speaker 2: know that I would make any macro moves differently. Yes,
Speaker 2: I sacrificed my personal life. Yes I dealt with infertility.
Speaker 2: I'm forty one years old and single right now. But
Speaker 2: you know what, I got to be there to lead
Speaker 2: the world through COVID. I got to make a difference
Speaker 2: in people's lives by doing a fifteen dollars minimum wage
Speaker 2: and being part of overhauling LaGuardia. Everything work princes legislation,
Speaker 2: and you know it's I see the contributions, the physical
Speaker 2: contributions in Moynihand Station and LaGuardia Airport, in JFK and
Speaker 2: the Marioquimal Bridge, and I.
Speaker 3: Don't know that I would give any of that up.
Speaker 2: I mean what, I have tried to be more present,
Speaker 2: somewhat sure, But I also think we lie to ourselves
Speaker 2: when we say, you know, time is zero sum, and
Speaker 2: I was really really good at what I did, but
Speaker 2: it's because I dedicated all of myself. And I'm not
Speaker 2: sure I would have been as effective and been as
Speaker 2: successful as I was, as young as I was if
Speaker 2: I ever took my foot off the gas.
Speaker 3: And that's just the reality.
Speaker 2: So I think Macro, I'd probably do it all the
Speaker 2: same micro, I'd make a lot of little changes.
Speaker 1: You want to get back in there, Oh, for sure
Speaker 1: you do.
Speaker 3: I love public service and coming along with the service
Speaker 3: or politics, both they go hand in hand.
Speaker 1: You seem to avoid that word. You said public service twice.
Speaker 2: Politics, government, public service, they all go hand in hand.
Speaker 2: And you know what people say to me, what are
Speaker 2: you crazy? You were batted around like a pinata, and
Speaker 2: the press they chased you.
Speaker 3: I had paparazzi hounding me.
Speaker 2: And the reality is, you get in the ring, you
Speaker 2: know you're going to get punched in the face.
Speaker 3: But who's standing at the end.
Speaker 2: And I think that doing good in the world and
Speaker 2: making these contributions is worth getting punched in the.
Speaker 3: Face a little. So develop a skin, you develop a
Speaker 3: thick skin.
Speaker 1: Do you think Trump's going to win?
Speaker 2: I do today here today, Yes, I mean, and you've
Speaker 2: got Jill Stein just announced Joe Manchin's retiring.
Speaker 3: What's he up to?
Speaker 2: Is he going to run on the no party you know,
Speaker 2: no labels party ticket? These battleground state poles this far out,
Speaker 2: I know everyone wants to be dismissive of them. I
Speaker 2: think we should be sounding the alarm. I think unless
Speaker 2: we make some changes fast, and we start to engage
Speaker 2: with real people and get more in tune with what
Speaker 2: matters to them, mainly pocketbook issues, gas prices, I think
Speaker 2: we're looking at an upset and I'm not sure this
Speaker 2: country can survive another four years of Donald Trump.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I totally. I mean Hillary came out so that
Speaker 1: the other day it'll be the end of the country.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it'll be the.
Speaker 1: End, which is just which is something It's interesting to
Speaker 1: me that people think that the United States is immune
Speaker 1: to that kind of thing, that that it can't happen here,
Speaker 1: that the country can't morph into something that's unrecognizable.
Speaker 2: I mean, we saw it on January sixth, we saw
Speaker 2: a preview. So if he's back in power and people
Speaker 2: are granted immunity, and you know, all of a sudden,
Speaker 2: he's embracing real life Nazis and things like he was
Speaker 2: doing in Charlottesville.
Speaker 3: I mean, where's the end?
Speaker 2: Like they sort of went a little bit more underground
Speaker 2: since he's gone, But if he comes back, I mean,
Speaker 2: I think it's going to be times ten what we
Speaker 2: saw during his first.
Speaker 1: And I obviously thought that he was going to be
Speaker 1: in real trouble with the January sixth charges because dozens
Speaker 1: of people have already been tried, convicted and sense for
Speaker 1: that crime, and if you lump him in with them that.
Speaker 1: I thought that the square footage there was vast because
Speaker 1: of the other people that were convicted. But I think
Speaker 1: nothing is more jerking and frenetic than speculation about politics.
Speaker 1: Is Newsom's going to jump in, somebody gonn tap Biden
Speaker 1: on the shoulder, and so you've got to get out now,
Speaker 1: I don't think so.
Speaker 2: I mean, Axelrod tried, you know, on Twitter or the
Speaker 2: other day David Axelrod said it's time we all come
Speaker 2: to terms with this, and the reaction from the party
Speaker 2: was not great, And so you know, I don't think
Speaker 2: Newsom's going to jump in. I don't think anyone serious
Speaker 2: is going to jump in. I think it's going to
Speaker 2: be what it is. The best thing we could do
Speaker 2: at this point is try to, you know, massage some
Speaker 2: of our messages and focus on some of these pocketbook
Speaker 2: issues and try to turn the conversation because just having
Speaker 2: an anti Trump dialogue is not going to be enough.
Speaker 3: It's not good to be against something. You've got to
Speaker 3: show people what you're for.
Speaker 2: And now that he's been in office for three years,
Speaker 2: it's what have you done for me lately? And a
Speaker 2: lot of his legislative accomplishments are great, but we're not
Speaker 2: going to feel the effects of them for three four
Speaker 2: five years, and people feel economically worse off.
Speaker 3: What you know, Wall Street isn't doing as well.
Speaker 2: Inflation is still out of control, so interest rates are
Speaker 2: up when you're trying to buy a house, and so,
Speaker 2: you know, people start to glorify the past.
Speaker 3: Oh, when Trump was there, it wasn't this.
Speaker 2: Bad, and oh, by the way, you know, how much
Speaker 2: worse can it get? And so then you get into
Speaker 2: this bad place where you forget how bad it was.
Speaker 2: You forget that we had a lunatic in the White
Speaker 2: House who was you know, tweeting these crazy things, and
Speaker 2: the things he said about women and the things that
Speaker 2: the supporters he embraced, and you sort of wash all
Speaker 2: of that away with time.
Speaker 3: And so I am. I'm petrified, and I think more
Speaker 3: people should be.
Speaker 1: Yeah. When I even when I live in New York,
Speaker 1: I woke at the door and I say, these four
Speaker 1: people over here voted for Biden, and these four people
Speaker 1: over here voted for Trump, and those two to finish
Speaker 1: not the ten percent image and those two were undecided.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but it.
Speaker 1: Still means of the voting population, half of these people
Speaker 1: voted for Trump, even in New York City, I believe.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, the numbers are not And like you know,
Speaker 2: New York City, you would think Trump should go. Seventy
Speaker 2: thirty is where they should go. And you know it's
Speaker 2: just and again keep your eye on Long Island. I
Speaker 2: look at that bellwether the rhetor gets, the scarier it is,
Speaker 2: so we'll see.
Speaker 1: I thought Ronald Reagan was a president who said to people,
Speaker 1: you know, you want to have a swimming pool, and
Speaker 1: the federal government wants to tax you in such a
Speaker 1: way where they're going to give out clean condoms and
Speaker 1: needles to kids in New York City. And don't you
Speaker 1: think those kids in New York City should take care
Speaker 1: of themselves, and you should have a swimming pool. Tax
Speaker 1: policies should be adjusted where you pay less taxes and
Speaker 1: they'll be taken care of by somebody else. Churches, whatever,
Speaker 1: you deserve to have a second car or a swimming pool,
Speaker 1: it's your money. And Reagan freed people to go more
Speaker 1: greedy and more self directed. Trump is someone who's taken
Speaker 1: it to this unbelievable height.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah.
Speaker 1: What he said to people is you hate black people,
Speaker 1: you hate gay people, You have no use for women
Speaker 1: being You don't believe women should be equal men.
Speaker 3: Just say it.
Speaker 1: You should be able to say whatever you want. This
Speaker 1: is America, I mean a free speecher. So whatever ugly
Speaker 1: things they think you're saying, whatever you're saying they think
Speaker 1: are ugly to say, don't worry about them. Say whatever
Speaker 1: you feel. And that's why we hear hatred this drum beat.
Speaker 1: One last question for you, and that is I'm probably
Speaker 1: obviously teeing up the ball here. I wouldn't say one person,
Speaker 1: but among the people you've known, worked with, or encountered,
Speaker 1: name one politician you admire the most.
Speaker 3: One politician. Well, I think I have to say Andrew
Speaker 3: or else. That's true.
Speaker 2: You admire him look in terms of his ability, his effectiveness,
Speaker 2: but not even close, not even close. I can't name
Speaker 2: one other politician that comes close to the level of
Speaker 2: contributions he did during his time in office.
Speaker 1: I read this book. It is a fabulous book because
Speaker 1: it's a woman talking about her career and her life
Speaker 1: in the intersection in a way I don't really hear
Speaker 1: that often. When I do, it's not as well written.
Speaker 1: This is a very well written book. Your book is
Speaker 1: a really wonderful book.
Speaker 3: Thank you, Thank you so much. Thank you for coming on,
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1: My Thanks to Melissa de Rosa. This episode was recorded
Speaker 1: at CDM Studios in New York City. We're produced by
Speaker 1: Kathleen Russo, Zach MacNeice, and Maureen Hoban. Our engineer is
Speaker 1: Frank Imperial. Our social media manager is Danielle Gingrich. I'm
Speaker 1: Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing. Is brought to you by
Speaker 1: iHeart Radio.
Speaker 3: I don't come