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Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the

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Speaker 1: Thing from iHeart Radio. If we hearken back to the

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Speaker 1: early days of COVID, many of us in the Northeast

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Speaker 1: were glued to our television screens, hanging on every word

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Speaker 1: of New York's Governor Andrew Cuomo in his daily press briefings.

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Speaker 1: Sitting next to him, some six feet away, was his

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Speaker 1: right hand secretary to the Governor and the most powerful

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Speaker 1: unelected person in New York State government, Melissa de Rosa.

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Speaker 1: Over the course of the next year, Cuomo was accused

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Speaker 1: of sexual harassment by eleven women. Following an investigation, a

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Speaker 1: few short months later, he resigned. It was a stunningly

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Speaker 1: swift fall from grace. Now Melissa de Rosa is here

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Speaker 1: to tell her side of the story. Her book What's

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Speaker 1: Left Unsaid, My Life at the Center of Power, Politics

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Speaker 1: and Crisis, details her meteoric rise in government, her experience

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Speaker 1: navigating the state through COVID, and her views on the

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Speaker 1: sexual harassment scandal. She takes no prisoners and sharing what

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Speaker 1: she believes with the many angles being played to remove

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Speaker 1: Cuomo from office. DeRosa worked her way up from an

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Speaker 1: internship for Hillary Clinton to New York State director of

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Speaker 1: Barack Obama's Political Action Committee, to eventually deputy chief of

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Speaker 1: staff to New York State Attorney General Eric Schneiderman. I

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Speaker 1: wanted to know what motivated her to leave the AG's

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Speaker 1: office for the governor's when given the chance.

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Speaker 2: The governor's office versus the AG's office is like going

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Speaker 2: from JV Divarsity. You know, it's like you're in the

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Speaker 2: AG's office. You can be involved. You can do a

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Speaker 2: lot of good, bring a lot of cases to hold

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Speaker 2: the big banks accountable. You know, we went after Trump

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Speaker 2: University when I worked for Scheiderman, but I was watching

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Speaker 2: Andrew Cuomo legalized gay marriage and passed the strongest gun

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Speaker 2: safety laws in the country after Sandy Hook and you know, build,

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Speaker 2: rebuild the tappan Zee Bridge. And so, I mean, the

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Speaker 2: governor's office is where I think, outside of the White House,

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Speaker 2: you can affect the most sweeping change for the most

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Speaker 2: amount of people at once. And so that was a

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Speaker 2: place I always aspire to go.

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Speaker 1: And then you go over there, and it's kind of

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Speaker 1: around the mid line of his first term. Yep, he's

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Speaker 1: elected in twenty ten. He assumes office in twenty eleven.

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Speaker 1: You go in twenty thirteen.

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Speaker 3: Yep, that's right, April twenty thirteen.

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Speaker 1: What had you heard about him in advance of you

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Speaker 1: going over there? Because I have. I mean, I've heard

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Speaker 1: a lot of stories about you. Let's just say this.

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Speaker 1: Andrew Cuomo was somebody all my life I've known as

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Speaker 1: a guy who was a brass knuckles guy. He's tough,

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Speaker 1: and the reason he was treated differently was because when

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Speaker 1: Republicans do that, nobody blinks.

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Speaker 3: Yep.

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Speaker 1: When you're a monster like Trump, a lot of Republicans

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Speaker 1: they crave them, whereas the Democrats is a more kind

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Speaker 1: of starchy Ivy League bow Tide, you know, moy and

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Speaker 1: a half and Docaucus, McGovern Jean McCarthy, that kind of got.

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Speaker 1: A Democrat that can throw a punch terrifies people. He

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Speaker 1: terrifies the right wing and terrifies that side of the aisle.

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Speaker 1: And Andrew can throw a punch. Andrew is known as

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Speaker 1: a tough, tough guy and a no holds barred guy

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Speaker 1: when he needs to. Yep, is that the reputation you

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Speaker 1: knew before you went over there?

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Speaker 2: I did, and he you know, also, I knew exactly

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Speaker 2: what I was getting into. He was a notorious micromanager.

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Speaker 2: He was a workaholic. He was first in the door

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Speaker 2: in the morning, last out at the end of the day.

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Speaker 2: And people forget because New York is so democratic that

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Speaker 2: when he first took over, there was a Republican Senate.

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Speaker 2: And so the year before he took office, the Democrats

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Speaker 2: were in charge of the Senate the Assembly, and Patterson,

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Speaker 2: who's a Democrat, was governor. They put gay marriage on

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Speaker 2: the floor and it goes up in flames. Andrew Cuomos,

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Speaker 2: you know, assumes office the next year, he's got a

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Speaker 2: Republican Senate. He gets gay marriage done with four Republican senators.

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Speaker 2: And so he was tough, and he could throw a punch,

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Speaker 2: but more than any thing, he was incredibly affected, smart

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Speaker 2: and smart. He knew how to move the pieces on

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Speaker 2: the chessboard in a way that no other politician I've

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Speaker 2: ever seen can, which you know, he grew up living

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Speaker 2: it through osmosis with his father, and you know, it

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Speaker 2: was just sort of in his blood. So, yeah, he

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Speaker 2: had a reputation for being incredibly demanding and difficult to

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Speaker 2: work for, but in a rewarding way.

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Speaker 1: And he was also beyond being the son of the

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Speaker 1: former governor. He was the ag.

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Speaker 3: Himself, yep, and had secretary.

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Speaker 1: Secretary, so we had quite a bit of a He

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Speaker 1: had quite a resume before going to the two Albany.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and he managed his father's campaign actually in when

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Speaker 2: he was twenty years old and his father ran for governor,

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Speaker 2: the first time he managed his campaign. So you know,

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Speaker 2: he was involved in sort of bare knuckle politics since

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Speaker 2: he was a teenager.

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Speaker 1: But you kind of knew what you were getting into.

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Speaker 3: Oh, definitely.

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Speaker 1: And then you're there in twenty thirteen, and Cuomo resigns

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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty one, twenty twenty one. But in twenty eighteen,

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Speaker 1: Schneidermann resigns. Yep, your former boss resigns, And so it

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Speaker 1: seems like you know, in New York in and around

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Speaker 1: that time, Patterson, the hocal of his day, becomes governor

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Speaker 1: because Spitzer, who's always the smartest guy in the room, resigned.

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Speaker 1: There's sex scandal in the air everywhere in Albany.

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Speaker 3: Everywhere, although different brands of sex scandal.

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Speaker 2: But yes, you know, look, I think the scandal follows politicians.

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Speaker 2: Politicians sometimes get over their skis. They're in power for

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Speaker 2: too long, they think they're invincible, and then in other instances,

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Speaker 2: like what I argue in the book with Cuomo, I

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Speaker 2: think it was more about political opportunism and taking a

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Speaker 2: shot to weaponize things that were actually every day interactions,

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Speaker 2: like kissing someone on the cheek and putting your hand

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Speaker 2: on their waist for a photograph and acting like that

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Speaker 2: was sexual harassment. But the one thing that's tried and

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Speaker 2: true is that sex kills democrats. You know, if there's

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Speaker 2: an allegation, it's as good as a guilty verdict and

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Speaker 2: you're out. The party has no patience for due process

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Speaker 2: or for trying to get through any of the details.

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Speaker 2: And so that is one constant theme you saw with

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Speaker 2: al Franken. You know, you see it all the time.

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Speaker 1: Were there any other opportunities you had? Was it automatically

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Speaker 1: going to be something like that, or was there ever

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Speaker 1: a thought? I mean, I'm not saying this to be kind.

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Speaker 1: You're a tough, smart, committed you work hard. You worked

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Speaker 1: hard in the book you talk about the costs to

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Speaker 1: you of working on personally and otherwise, and you work hard.

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Speaker 1: Were there every thoughts of going and making some money somewhere?

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Speaker 3: You know, it's a lot of different things. Do it

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Speaker 3: for a lot of different people.

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Speaker 2: I love public service, and I felt fulfilled by putting

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Speaker 2: in the hours and the reward was passing sweeping legislation.

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Speaker 2: So I love public service, and I never for one

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Speaker 2: minute contemplated going out into the private sector and monetizing

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Speaker 2: those skills.

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Speaker 1: When you see that sex scandal, for example, plays the

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Speaker 1: way it does not only in the democratic sphere, but

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Speaker 1: I also think in the more media center. I think

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Speaker 1: you can do whatever the hell you want to in

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Speaker 1: Wyoming or South Dakota and there's less chance you're going

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Speaker 1: to get caught. This is the media capital of the world. Yep.

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Speaker 1: And when you're playing your cards a certain way and

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Speaker 1: you're in New York, you better watch out. There's a

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Speaker 1: lot of eyes on you.

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Speaker 3: Yes, that's that's absolutely that your.

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Speaker 1: Job to try to encourage them to remember that.

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Speaker 3: I mean, not really.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't anything that was ever an Andrew Cuomo thing.

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Speaker 2: You know, Andrew Cuomo was a lot of things. People

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Speaker 2: labeled him a bully, people, you know, accused him of

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Speaker 2: being two bipartisan and working with Republicans when they said

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Speaker 2: you should only work with Democrats.

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Speaker 3: He was accused of a lot of.

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Speaker 2: Things over the years, but The one thing he was

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Speaker 2: never accused of was anything involving sexual harassment or anything

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Speaker 2: coming close to that, which is why when this scandal

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Speaker 2: started to unfurl, it was like as if I was

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Speaker 2: in the twilight zone, because it was so far removed

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Speaker 2: from anything he had ever been known to be or

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Speaker 2: anyone thought he was.

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Speaker 1: Now when he starts to go down in this whole thing,

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Speaker 1: and all of this up because I'm gonna ask you

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Speaker 1: to read a passage from your book, Okay, I really

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Speaker 1: want desperately for you to read this, because it's so

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Speaker 1: amazing this It's so chocked with information and thoughts and

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Speaker 1: so forth and important things. The when this starts to

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Speaker 1: go down, who do you think was responsible, if not

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Speaker 1: for creating or engineering, but who do you think really

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Speaker 1: carried the ball in terms of bringing him down over

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Speaker 1: a sexual charge.

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Speaker 2: Well, there were two people that I really like lay

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Speaker 2: it at their feet. One is Lindsay Boylan, who sort

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Speaker 2: of created this whole stampede from the beginning, and I

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Speaker 2: go through it in my book in painstaking detail. But

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Speaker 2: she had been threatening our staff and saying that we

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Speaker 2: were changing petitioning rules for Congress in order to hurt

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Speaker 2: her even though we were doing in the middle of

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Speaker 2: pandemic for everyone was totally devoid of reality, you know,

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Speaker 2: promises retribution, says in these text messages to senior staff,

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Speaker 2: my life is long, and so are my memory, and

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Speaker 2: so is my resources. You know, she says all these

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Speaker 2: things on Twitter that turned out to be wise in

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Speaker 2: any event. She was driving the train trying to actively

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Speaker 2: recruit women to come out against the governor, even you know,

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Speaker 2: little things like kiss on the cheek, hand on the

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Speaker 2: waist and acting like this is an accuser and accusing

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Speaker 2: number two because number three she was doing that. But

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Speaker 2: it was Tiss James who carried this ball over the line.

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Speaker 1: Why do you think that was? What was her game?

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Speaker 2: Very simple, you know, talking about Barrey knuckle politics. The

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Speaker 2: woman wanted to be governor, right, and we said it

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Speaker 2: all along, and people said you're crazy, and then lo

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Speaker 2: and behold. You know, as soon as we're out of

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Speaker 2: office one month later, boom, Tish James announces she's running

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Speaker 2: for governor. So the goal for her was very clear

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Speaker 2: and obvious to us all along, and a lot of

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Speaker 2: people tried to say no, no, no, this has something

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Speaker 2: to do with it. And then the minute we were out,

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Speaker 2: she pivoted to run, so, you know, bare knuckle politics.

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Speaker 1: So Cuomo was elected in twenty ten, twenty fourteen, twenty.

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Speaker 2: Eighteen by massive margins, and he's assumed to have a

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Speaker 2: very good chance at achieving the unthinkable, which is.

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Speaker 1: A fourth term, yes, which was unavailable to Pataki, to

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Speaker 1: his father to three term governors. Or was it was

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Speaker 1: Mario two terms?

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Speaker 3: Mario did three and then yeah he.

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Speaker 1: Lost and Protack three terms each. Yep, and Andrew's going

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Speaker 1: to get the pull the rabbit out of the hatt

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Speaker 1: and get a fourth term. Yep. Now, James declared when

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Speaker 1: Andrew resigns in twenty twenty.

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Speaker 2: One, so the governor Cuomo resigns in August of twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty one. She announces she's running for governor in October

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Speaker 2: of twenty twenty one, so you know, she lets six

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Speaker 2: weeks go by.

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Speaker 3: But the body was still warm.

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Speaker 2: Decent time, yes, and she announces she's running and then amazingly, look,

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Speaker 2: she's not very talented, she's not very articulate on the stump,

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Speaker 2: she wasn't raising a lot of money, and so her

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Speaker 2: race lasted about two months and then she dropped out

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Speaker 2: and she decided she was just going to run for

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Speaker 2: AG again and lean in on Trump, and so that's

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Speaker 2: what she did.

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Speaker 1: Now you have some very choice words for Hochel, and

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Speaker 1: some of my favorite passages, regardless of my feelings, are

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Speaker 1: lack thereof of support for Hokeel. I do see that

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Speaker 1: New York politics, of course, when number one on the

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Speaker 1: call sheet is gone and the lieutenant governor a purely

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Speaker 1: ceremonial position my entire life. People said to me the

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Speaker 1: state wide offices are two Senate seats, governor, comptroller, and

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Speaker 1: AG and that the lieutenant governorship is just a ceremonial,

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Speaker 1: bullshit thing for the campaign. But we have entered a

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Speaker 1: phase now where a statewide office in this country is

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Speaker 1: occupied by some pretty listless, colorless people. Why do you

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Speaker 1: think that is?

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Speaker 2: You know, look, I feel the same way. I'm disappointed

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Speaker 2: by government at every level right now. It feels like

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Speaker 2: a lot of people who sort of have been hanging

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Speaker 2: around the hoop and then they get their slot, and

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Speaker 2: then it's all they care about is staying in power

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Speaker 2: and not doing anything with it while they're there. And

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Speaker 2: I was actually saying this to someone the other day.

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Speaker 2: You know, in terms of both the migrant crisis, and

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Speaker 2: also post COVID New York, where this should be a

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Speaker 2: moment of opportunity where we're reimagining what the city can

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Speaker 2: be and we're getting creative about dealing with vacant storefronts

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Speaker 2: and empty office buildings, and instead you know nothing. And

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Speaker 2: I think about, you know, ten years ago, love him

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Speaker 2: or hate him, but you know, Bloomberg was mayor Andrew

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Speaker 2: Cuomo was governor, and what it looked like when you

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Speaker 2: had two really super talented executives at the helm. But

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Speaker 2: I think that we're in a bad place right now

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Speaker 2: where there's this sort of mentality if you wait in line,

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Speaker 2: it's your turn, then you get to do it, and

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Speaker 2: the democratic machinery falls in line. There are no primaries

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Speaker 2: for these high profile positions, and so it just allows

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Speaker 2: the cycle of sort of sluggishness and listlessness to use

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Speaker 2: your word, to perpetuate. And New York, I'm sorry, is

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Speaker 2: the greatest state in the country, and so you'd think

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Speaker 2: we'd be attracting better talent.

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Speaker 3: But I also think there is this dynamic very deep.

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Speaker 2: The bench isn't deep it all. And I think there

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Speaker 2: also is this dynamic now where there are some really

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Speaker 2: talented people in the private sector who don't want to

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Speaker 2: go near politics because they think to themselves, if I

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Speaker 2: do that, I'm going to be destroyed in the media.

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Speaker 2: People are going to come after me. My personal life

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Speaker 2: is going to be distorted, exposed. So we're we're in

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Speaker 2: a bad position, and there needs to be a disruption

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Speaker 2: of the status quo, and it has to happen soon.

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Speaker 1: We do have this dearth, We do have this shortage

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Speaker 1: of people who would make great leaders. You mentioned the

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Speaker 1: twin cylinders of Cuomo with Bloomberg. I thought Bloomberg was

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Speaker 1: somebody who would have been better in a body like

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Speaker 1: the Senate. I think Bloomberg on his own as an executive,

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Speaker 1: which is what he was He's been his whole life,

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Speaker 1: the executive calling the shots and in charge. It wasn't

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Speaker 1: so great because he spent ninety million dollars of his

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Speaker 1: own money on three races.

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Speaker 3: Yes he bought the election, well, yes, he certainly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he certainly used his own money leveraged that money

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Speaker 2: to win. But I always felt like Bloomberg was incredibly competent.

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Speaker 2: And the mayor of New York City's job essentially is

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Speaker 2: police and garbage. It's please garbage, education, and at least

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Speaker 2: during that period of time, I think people felt really

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Speaker 2: confident about the leadership coming out of city Hall.

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Speaker 3: There was no corruption. He wasn't someone who could be bought.

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Speaker 2: He kept the trains moving on time, the city was

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Speaker 2: at its all time best in terms of safety, Businesses

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Speaker 2: were coming in, and so I thought he was a

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Speaker 2: phenomenal executive.

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Speaker 1: Melissa DeRosa If you enjoy conversations with brilliant, highly skilled

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Speaker 1: political aids, be sure to check out my episode with

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Speaker 1: Huma Abadeen, Hillary Clinton's chief of staff.

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Speaker 4: To some extent, there was crisis all around me. It's

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Speaker 4: one of the reasons I share in the book this

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Speaker 4: story about the first time I staff Hillary and her

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Speaker 4: speech is forgotten in the car and she calls me

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Speaker 4: on to stage and I'm this kid, I'm barely twenty one,

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Speaker 4: don't have the speech. And that was the moment, the

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Speaker 4: moment where you basically either fall apart or say I

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Speaker 4: got it. I can fix this. And I fixed it

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Speaker 4: in that moment. That was twenty six years ago, and

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Speaker 4: I have always figured it out, and I actually think

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Speaker 4: I have figured out that I'm pretty good at it.

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Speaker 1: To hear more of my conversation with Huma Abadeen go

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Speaker 1: to Here's the Thing dot org. After the Break, Melissa

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Speaker 1: DeRosa shares what it was like during the loneliest point

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Speaker 1: of her life as friends and allies fell away while

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Speaker 1: the accusations stacked up against Andrew Cuomo. I'm Alec Baldwin,

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Speaker 1: and you're listening to Here's the Thing. Melissa DeRosa's book

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Speaker 1: What's Left Unsaid gives a detailed account of the unfolding

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Speaker 1: of the sexual harassment scandal involving Governor Andrew Cuomo in

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty one. I wanted her to share a passage

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Speaker 1: from her book, reflecting on this time as she and

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Speaker 1: Cuomo's inner circle attempted to navigate the crisis.

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Speaker 2: I hung up and walked outside to see the Governor

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Speaker 2: sitting at the round table on the patio, the same

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Speaker 2: table we had sat at so many times in the

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Speaker 2: last eight years, with his family, with senior staff, smoking cigars,

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Speaker 2: debating policy, laughing, arguing. Melissa, what's going on? The governor asked,

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Speaker 2: responding to my drawn face. There was no way to

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Speaker 2: sugarcoat this one. There's a rumor going around that Sheriff

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Speaker 2: Apple is going to arrest you, I said, Governor. The

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Speaker 2: legislature is going to impeach you. The facts don't matter.

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Speaker 2: They aren't going to scrutinize a damn thing in that report.

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Speaker 2: The Senate has the votes, christ to the majority leader

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Speaker 2: publicly announced she's one of them. The far left in

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Speaker 2: her conference wanted you out before any of this. They

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Speaker 2: used this to do it. The Governor heard every word

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Speaker 2: I said, nodded his head and looked over at Steph.

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Speaker 2: Can you get your laptop. I have a speech to write.

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Speaker 2: At that point, I didn't know what speech he was

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Speaker 2: going to write. I'm not sure he did either. With

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Speaker 2: every passing hour, I could feel the walls closing in.

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Speaker 2: I didn't know who I could trust or where I

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Speaker 2: could turn. My phone was constantly ringing with unsolicited advice

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Speaker 2: from legislators, outside consultants, and our remaining senior staff, each

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Speaker 2: with their own agenda. I was lost in a fog

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Speaker 2: of trying to discern whether the council I was receiving

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Speaker 2: was to benefit the administration or the person calling. And

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Speaker 2: as the hours went on, I could feel the inner

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Speaker 2: shrinking details about private discussions I had with longtime colleagues,

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Speaker 2: people I truly believed were real friends, about the state

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Speaker 2: of my emotional well being suddenly appeared in the news

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Speaker 2: stories crediting blind sources with quote direct knowledge wrapped in betrayal.

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Speaker 2: I could count on one hand the number of people

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Speaker 2: I believed I could talk to you. Honestly, I had

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Speaker 2: never felt more alone.

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Speaker 1: What does that bring back?

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Speaker 2: That was at the bottom, That was the bottom, That

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Speaker 2: was the bottom. I resigned, I think a day after

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Speaker 2: that passage.

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Speaker 1: Adler told you to resign.

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Speaker 3: Norman Adler told me to resign.

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Speaker 1: I've just said the governor is a big boy.

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Speaker 2: Yep, he's a big boy. My longtime mentor said, he's

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Speaker 2: a big boy.

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Speaker 3: He can do it. You've got to get yourself out

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Speaker 3: of ra former partner, my father's former business partner.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And he said to me at that time, which I

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Speaker 2: do think was true and prescient. He said, in a

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Speaker 2: year or two, people are going to look back and

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Speaker 2: see this all differently. They're going to recognize it for

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Speaker 2: the hysteria that it is, and he will figure this out.

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Speaker 2: But today, you've got to get yourself out of there.

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Speaker 1: Right when you say there, each with an agenda of

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Speaker 1: their own. Yep. I'm going to assume based on my

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Speaker 1: own experience from knowing people in political life and flirting

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Speaker 1: with going into publics myself years ago, and this kind

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Speaker 1: of thing that there's just nothing like that world. When

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Speaker 1: there's blood in the water, when they see that you're wounded, yep,

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Speaker 1: they all go to high ground. They're all gone.

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Speaker 2: They're gone, and each of them have their eye on

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Speaker 2: their own brass ring. You know, if you're out of

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Speaker 2: the way, then the next person can move up, and

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Speaker 2: that means I can move up.

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Speaker 3: And if those people.

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Speaker 2: Are out of the top jobs and are no longer

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Speaker 2: a chief of staff or commissioners or whatever, then then

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Speaker 2: other crop of people we can put in those positions.

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Speaker 2: And so that day that I reflect on in the book,

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Speaker 2: that's what I said, I had never felt more alone,

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Speaker 2: and I didn't know who I could trust. And you

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Speaker 2: go from one end where during COVID you're these national

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Speaker 2: international heroes that the world is relying on to get

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Speaker 2: through the day, and then you swing a year later

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Speaker 2: and people are trying to force you out with the

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Speaker 2: sort of created you know, manufactured scandal and how quickly

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Speaker 2: you're disposable.

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Speaker 3: And it was a really terrible time.

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Speaker 2: And it was after a year of dealing with COVID

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Speaker 2: as I write in the book, I was sleeping three

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Speaker 2: hour nights, hard work, laying on the floor of my office,

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Speaker 2: and crying at the end of the day after calling

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Speaker 2: the family members of the healthcare workers who died, struggling

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Speaker 2: with my mental health on the weight of the decisions

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Speaker 2: we were making, literally life and death. And then it's

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Speaker 2: like fast forward a year and a half later, and

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Speaker 2: this is how you.

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Speaker 3: Think public You were married at the time.

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Speaker 2: I was married at the beginning of COVID, and but

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Speaker 2: we were separated, which I also talked about in the book.

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Speaker 2: We were separated. We told, we said to each other,

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Speaker 2: we weren't going to tell anyone was going on. I

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Speaker 2: was getting a ton of media attention. I could I

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Speaker 2: didn't want it to be in the tabloids. Yeah, and

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Speaker 2: so I was struggling with you knowed my marriage, Yes.

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Speaker 3: I could have, but no.

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Speaker 2: And so it was, you know, struggling with that isolation

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Speaker 2: and not only separating from my husband and my marriage

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Speaker 2: falling apart, but also sort of lying to everyone around

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Speaker 2: us about the state of our marriage because we didn't

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Speaker 2: want the public attention, we didn't want the scrutiny. So, yeah,

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Speaker 2: it was that those two years is like nothing I've

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Speaker 2: ever experienced and wish on nobody.

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Speaker 1: And when your marriage ended, it seemed like from what

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Speaker 1: was in the book that you you that he was

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Speaker 1: basically laying his cards on the table that you weren't

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Speaker 1: available to him. Yes, work was your mistress.

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Speaker 2: Yes, essentially, Well, we met together at work. I was

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Speaker 2: technically his boss, and we started dating while at work.

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Speaker 2: And then actual no no for Quoma Andrew.

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Speaker 1: What was he doing for him?

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Speaker 2: He was his press secretary and I was communications director,

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Speaker 2: so I was directly his boss. And he asked me out,

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Speaker 2: and we had dinner thirty nights in a row, and

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Speaker 2: he wanted to be my boyfriend, and I said I

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Speaker 2: can't do that because it's technically not allowed.

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Speaker 1: And he you did warn him.

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Speaker 2: I did warn him, and you know, then he leaves

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Speaker 2: the we get married, and as it turned out, and

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Speaker 2: I think this is true for people in general, sometimes

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Speaker 2: you come to this realization that the glue that held

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Speaker 2: us together was work, and we were no longer working together,

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Speaker 2: and so when we weren't in that same environment day

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Speaker 2: to day, we just didn't have that same connection and

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Speaker 2: interests and we started to grow apart.

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Speaker 3: But I said to him and I write about this

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Speaker 3: in the book.

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Speaker 2: At one point when we got into an argument and

437
00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:23,200
Speaker 2: I said, it's not like I you know, there was

438
00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:24,639
Speaker 2: deceptive marketing here.

439
00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:27,600
Speaker 3: You met me at work. I came as advertised.

440
00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:30,360
Speaker 2: But you know, you push as much as you can,

441
00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:32,000
Speaker 2: you hold on as long as you can, and then

442
00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:34,320
Speaker 2: at a certain point, you know, such as life.

443
00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:37,880
Speaker 1: I want to go back to You're born in Rochester

444
00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:38,600
Speaker 1: or Albany.

445
00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:39,800
Speaker 3: No, I was born in Rochester.

446
00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:41,120
Speaker 1: What was your dad doing there? Then?

447
00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:44,440
Speaker 3: He was district director for Louis Slaughter, who was a congresswoman.

448
00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:45,560
Speaker 3: I know Louis yep.

449
00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:48,080
Speaker 2: So I started off, you know, four year old kid

450
00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:51,280
Speaker 2: on the campaign trail with dad, learning about politics young

451
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:54,360
Speaker 2: and as his career evolved over time, and it brought

452
00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:56,520
Speaker 2: him to Albany, and we moved our family to Albany.

453
00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:59,120
Speaker 2: You know, I was alongside him every step of the way.

454
00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:02,520
Speaker 2: I considered us to be partners. I was reading multiple

455
00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:05,520
Speaker 2: newspapers at twelve, and I was, you know, shadowing him

456
00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:08,520
Speaker 2: in the Capitol at fourteen and watching meet the press

457
00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:10,360
Speaker 2: since I, you know, was like able to.

458
00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:14,359
Speaker 3: Hold a thought, and so goes to Washington. No.

459
00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:16,760
Speaker 2: Well, when Sawner was in Washington and she was a congresswoman.

460
00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:20,920
Speaker 2: He was, he worked for her, but in regious in Rochester. Yeah,

461
00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:22,359
Speaker 2: but then he you know, went.

462
00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:24,480
Speaker 1: To gold say Capital, you would go with him to Washington.

463
00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:26,439
Speaker 2: No, No, I'm saying. Then when we moved to Albany

464
00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:28,040
Speaker 2: and he was doing business in Albany in.

465
00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:31,320
Speaker 3: The state, what did you start doing there? He was political.

466
00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:33,440
Speaker 2: Director for the Public Employees Federation, which is one of

467
00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:35,800
Speaker 2: the biggest unions in the country. So yeah, so he

468
00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:38,280
Speaker 2: took up the union movement and he spent years and

469
00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:41,880
Speaker 2: years doing union politics, and so I would shadow him

470
00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:44,199
Speaker 2: there and I just I had an early love for

471
00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:45,199
Speaker 2: politics and government.

472
00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:47,000
Speaker 3: It was just in my blood too.

473
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:52,520
Speaker 1: But when you're working with your father in Albany, when

474
00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:55,600
Speaker 1: did you begin to get a sense of something that

475
00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,160
Speaker 1: I'm always mindful of because you know, the Brennan Center

476
00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:01,000
Speaker 1: for Justice and then my law school that I worked

477
00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:04,120
Speaker 1: with very closely years ago about campaign finance reform, YEP.

478
00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:07,320
Speaker 1: They would write a paper every year, and one paper

479
00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:09,359
Speaker 1: they wrote several years ago, many years ago, was about

480
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:11,840
Speaker 1: an evaluation of all the fifty state houses in the

481
00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:15,440
Speaker 1: United States YEP, and the fiftieth and always the fiftieth

482
00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:19,440
Speaker 1: and probably forever. The fiftieth was Louisiana and forty.

483
00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:21,960
Speaker 3: Ninth always need it. Albany, yep, they said it.

484
00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:26,359
Speaker 1: In terms of effectiveness, corruption, yep, mismanagement, you name it.

485
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:28,600
Speaker 1: That said this is one of the worst state houses.

486
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:31,000
Speaker 1: What was it when you were there? Did you pick

487
00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:33,720
Speaker 1: up on that? Why is Albany so dysfunctional?

488
00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,480
Speaker 2: There was a period and it's interesting because I feel

489
00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:38,919
Speaker 2: like the governor hasn't Cuomo hasn't gotten enough credit for this.

490
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:42,040
Speaker 2: But the campaign finance laws in New York are the

491
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:45,200
Speaker 2: most ridiculous of any anything in the country, not the city,

492
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:48,520
Speaker 2: but the state. I mean, individual contribution limits at sixty

493
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:50,520
Speaker 2: grand a person. You know, you can There was an

494
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:52,880
Speaker 2: LLC loophole for a long time where a person gets

495
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:55,439
Speaker 2: set up fifteen LLC's and give two hundred grand up,

496
00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:57,680
Speaker 2: you know, a pop through each of their LLC's, which

497
00:23:57,680 --> 00:23:59,600
Speaker 2: a lot of these real estate guys actually did.

498
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:02,000
Speaker 3: I mean, it sounds ridiculous, but they actually did exploit

499
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:02,560
Speaker 3: it and do it.

500
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:04,600
Speaker 2: And so over the years, I think we've done a

501
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:08,119
Speaker 2: pretty decent job of reigning it in. In twenty nineteen,

502
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:10,960
Speaker 2: so right before, you know, two years before we resigned,

503
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,119
Speaker 2: we actually enacted a public campaign finance system, which is

504
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:17,439
Speaker 2: supposed to go in effect for this upcoming election. And

505
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:19,480
Speaker 2: what's interesting is for a long time we couldn't get

506
00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:22,360
Speaker 2: it done because the Republicans in the Senate were against it. Finally,

507
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:25,040
Speaker 2: the stars aligned, we had the Democratic Senate and Assembly

508
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:26,760
Speaker 2: and we were going to get this done. And then

509
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:29,360
Speaker 2: last year, when we were out of office, the legislature

510
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:34,119
Speaker 2: actually watered down the public campaign finance limits and the

511
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:37,120
Speaker 2: rules in order to allow more money back into the system,

512
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:40,520
Speaker 2: and the governor signed that bill. And so it's interesting

513
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 2: to watch because Democrats, you know, have a lot of

514
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,040
Speaker 2: swagger when it comes to talking about these issues, but

515
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:46,680
Speaker 2: then when they're in charge, they want to do everything

516
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:47,159
Speaker 2: they can.

517
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:48,280
Speaker 3: To stay in charge.

518
00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:51,439
Speaker 2: So, you know, I do think that that step was

519
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:53,200
Speaker 2: a step in the right direction, and we'll see how

520
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:56,920
Speaker 2: it goes. But you know, I blame the campaign finance laws.

521
00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:01,480
Speaker 1: As do why because by nature, I'm sure and I've

522
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:04,679
Speaker 1: examined this quite deeply because of my commitment to campaign

523
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:09,160
Speaker 1: finance reform. I've written papers, I've given speeches in Congress

524
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:13,160
Speaker 1: where I've mentioned how campaign finance reform is the lynchpin

525
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:14,560
Speaker 1: of all the problems in this country.

526
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 3: Yeah.

527
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:16,440
Speaker 1: Absolutely, you're never going to get people to come and

528
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,119
Speaker 1: run for Incumbency is too powerful. And with that in mind,

529
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:22,480
Speaker 1: I'm not telling you anything fresh. This is your career.

530
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:25,000
Speaker 1: But I said I was never a term limits person.

531
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:27,760
Speaker 1: But when you say to me, when these idiots say

532
00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 1: to me that elections are themselves term limits, I want

533
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:33,639
Speaker 1: to go, well, not really, incumbency is such. I mean

534
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:36,560
Speaker 1: people who like to take Hogel. Hogel assumes office in

535
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:39,680
Speaker 1: twenty twenty one. When he resigns, she's eligible for her

536
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 1: own full term the following year, and she gets elected

537
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 1: to a full term, so she gets what she's craving

538
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:48,719
Speaker 1: like Patterson. But Patterson did not win a full term.

539
00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 3: Patterson did not want to right.

540
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:54,280
Speaker 1: Which which I truly truly thought that Hogel would not

541
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 1: win a full term.

542
00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:57,920
Speaker 2: She almost didn't. I mean, when you look at the numbers,

543
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:01,480
Speaker 2: it's crazy. An a state in New York where there's

544
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 2: only twenty two percent statewide registered Republicans.

545
00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:06,960
Speaker 3: The guy that was running against her.

546
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 2: Lee Zelden, is a maga election denial Yeah, anti choice,

547
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:17,880
Speaker 2: you know, just the worst across its yes, everything, and

548
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:21,359
Speaker 2: he she only beats him by five points after she

549
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:25,320
Speaker 2: raised a record sixty million dollars, which just I think

550
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 2: goes to show you how little support she actually does have.

551
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:30,240
Speaker 2: And I actually think the only reason she eked it

552
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:32,720
Speaker 2: out in the end was because all of a sudden,

553
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 2: the tabloids were saying Zelden could win, Zelden could Winzelden

554
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:37,639
Speaker 2: who could win? So I started hearing from people that

555
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:40,200
Speaker 2: I know that didn't like her at all, but said,

556
00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:42,719
Speaker 2: I have to turn out or else we could end

557
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,040
Speaker 2: up with like a mini Trump in the governor's office.

558
00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 2: So I think the fear that was created by the

559
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 2: New York Post, which they thought was beneficial to them

560
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 2: in momentum, I think, blew up in their face and

561
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:54,720
Speaker 2: actually created a wave where a lot of people turned

562
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 2: out to vote who otherwise would have stayed home. But

563
00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:58,960
Speaker 2: she just eked it out. I mean, for New York,

564
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,040
Speaker 2: we used to when you know, by fifteen twenty points,

565
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:04,359
Speaker 2: and for her to win with five against someone like

566
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:06,040
Speaker 2: that in a state like this is crazy.

567
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:09,960
Speaker 1: Hochel wins. And I'm wondering with your knowledge of state

568
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:13,239
Speaker 1: politics when someone like Hochel wins re election even though

569
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 1: it was by a paltry margin, who are her supporters

570
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:21,639
Speaker 1: Now who's behind her, What organizations, institution's political powers does

571
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:22,760
Speaker 1: she have in her pocket? Now?

572
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:26,960
Speaker 2: You know, look, it's people who have a direct interest

573
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:28,680
Speaker 2: in whatever is going to get done in Albany. It's

574
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 2: incredibly transactional. So whoever needs something from her is going

575
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:37,320
Speaker 2: to continue to support her. But what I find fascinating is,

576
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:39,680
Speaker 2: you know, I don't really see the women's groups out

577
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,160
Speaker 2: with that much energy. I actually just saw Sienna came

578
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:44,199
Speaker 2: out with a poll a couple of weeks ago with

579
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:47,920
Speaker 2: her latest numbers women, she's forty four, forty two. I mean,

580
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:51,040
Speaker 2: she barely has you know, supportive women in this state.

581
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 2: She's underwater with almost every category in the state, in

582
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:58,240
Speaker 2: a state that's this democratic, and so she doesn't have

583
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 2: a lot of support from actual people, where she has

584
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 2: supporters from lobbyists, from interest groups who've got an agenda

585
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:07,960
Speaker 2: at Albany. Yeah, well and barely. I mean, they'll support

586
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:10,199
Speaker 2: her in so far as they'll fill her campaign coffer,

587
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 2: but it's not like you know, the reason Zelden got

588
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,639
Speaker 2: so close is because union workers, specifically those in the

589
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,800
Speaker 2: building trades and other blue collar areas, turned out and

590
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,679
Speaker 2: voted for Zelden. So the leadership may be aligned with

591
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 2: her politically and in terms of filling her coffers and

592
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:26,399
Speaker 2: taking meetings with her and holding events for her, but

593
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:27,680
Speaker 2: their members aren't with her.

594
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:30,840
Speaker 1: I remember people would explain to me, because my family,

595
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,120
Speaker 1: a big chunk of my family lives in upstate New York.

596
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:37,959
Speaker 1: Many people who analyzed state politics and would regard Cuomo

597
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:40,960
Speaker 1: a certain way thought he'd done something, you know, very

598
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:43,800
Speaker 1: shrewd and very very practical, which was, you know, the

599
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:45,960
Speaker 1: five boroughs you got in your pocket, that's blue, blue, blue.

600
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 1: Not thing's ever going to change that. And Long Island

601
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 1: is red, red red. There might be some little ribbons

602
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:52,520
Speaker 1: there that are but you're never going to deliver a

603
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 1: serious number of Democratic votes on Long Island. Now, the

604
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 1: real orchard for votes is Central New York and Upstate

605
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 1: New York. And the Cuomo learned to play center Republicans

606
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 1: and manipulate center Republicans and got votes in passed legislation.

607
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 1: And although his numbers, mind that have been dramatically different.

608
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 1: He put a lot of his attention and a lot

609
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 1: of the state's money into Upstate New York. Is that true?

610
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 3: Yeah?

611
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 2: No, He focused a tremendous He believed that Upstate New

612
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 2: York got short shrift for a long time. It did,

613
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 2: and so when he came into office, he said, I'm

614
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 2: going to reorient the power structure, and I'm going to

615
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 2: put a lot more time, attention and money into Buffalo, Syracuse, Albany, Rochester,

616
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 2: the North Country, the Southern Tier, yep. And so we

617
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 2: spent a lot of time trying to build up the

618
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 2: local economies, trying to revitalize those downtowns. But you know,

619
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 2: when we were there, we got the support of Long Island.

620
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 2: It's really interesting. The other night, you know, everyone said

621
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 2: watch Ohio, Watch Virginia. When I was watching the returns

622
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 2: come in, I said, no, no, no, watch Suffolk County, because

623
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 2: that to me is bellweather. You know, like, now all

624
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:56,960
Speaker 2: the Long Island to your point is now completely read.

625
00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:00,440
Speaker 2: Whereas when we ran in twenty eighteen Andrew Cuomo one

626
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:03,480
Speaker 2: both NASA and Suffolk. There were democratic county executives of

627
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,680
Speaker 2: Nasau and Suffolk. And so to me, watching Long Island

628
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 2: is sort of like a bell weather for the suburbs

629
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 2: around the country. Yeah, and so I keep my eye

630
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 2: on Long Island because I think so goes Long Island,

631
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 2: so goes the country. And it's interesting because I think

632
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 2: that people paid way too much attention to what happened

633
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:22,080
Speaker 2: on that abortion referendum in Ohio, which of course that

634
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 2: was going to win Roe v. Wade polls at seventy percent. Nationwide,

635
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 2: the Republicans are wildly out of step on that issue.

636
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 2: So when you put it on a ballot in a

637
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 2: place like Ohio, it didn't shock me that it passed

638
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 2: with fifty seven percent. In fact, I was surprised it

639
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 2: didn't go with sixty percent. But I was like, look

640
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 2: at Virginia the legislature which did hold democratic went democratic.

641
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 2: But then also look at what happened in Suffolk County,

642
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 2: And that's where I think politically going into next year,

643
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 2: we need to keep our eye on is what's going

644
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 2: to happen in the suburbs, because that will decide the elections.

645
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 1: Melissa de Rosa, if you're enjoying this conversation, tell a

646
00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:00,360
Speaker 1: friend and be sure to follow here's the thing on

647
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

648
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 1: When we come back, Melissa DeRosa tells us why she

649
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:13,720
Speaker 1: believes that Trump will be president again and what we

650
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 1: might do to prevent it. I'm Alec Baldwin, and you're

651
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 1: listening to here's the thing. As Director of Communications, chief

652
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:34,000
Speaker 1: of Staff, and then Secretary to the Governor of New York,

653
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:38,280
Speaker 1: Melissa de Rosa has held multiple positions of tremendous power

654
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 1: and influence, yet her college days happened to play a

655
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:45,720
Speaker 1: significant role in her path to state government.

656
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:47,360
Speaker 3: I went to Cornell.

657
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 2: I am a true upstate girl, born in Rochester, lived

658
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 2: in Saratoga. In Albany, I did Industrial and labor relations,

659
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 2: which is unions. They have a very specific course on

660
00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 2: negotiating arbitration, you know, the union world that I did undergrad,

661
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 2: and then I did my master's there too, in public administration.

662
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 1: So you said the major is in we again.

663
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:07,720
Speaker 3: Industrial and labor relations.

664
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 1: Is it safe to say the Cornell with that kind

665
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 1: of program as a pipeline to Albany.

666
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 2: It's exactly from that school, exactly We've been waiting for you.

667
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:18,160
Speaker 3: Yes, that's exactly right now.

668
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:20,480
Speaker 1: When you finished, did you you got a graduate degree.

669
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 2: I took a couple of years off in between, and

670
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:25,160
Speaker 2: then went back. I went to d C. And I

671
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 2: worked for a Member of Congress on the Hill as

672
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 2: her press secretary. I managed the Nity of Alaskaz from Brooklyn,

673
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 2: and I managed a couple of campaigns.

674
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 3: I was doing communications.

675
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:37,320
Speaker 2: I actually did a very brief stint right out of

676
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 2: college and fashion, which my father.

677
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 3: Was not thrilled. I did that for about a year.

678
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 3: It was like my moment of rebellion. I always loved fashion.

679
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:47,720
Speaker 2: I met somebody who offered me a job as a

680
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,120
Speaker 2: fashion polysist for theory theory.

681
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, they're doing well, Yeah, they're doing great. And

682
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 3: so I made some money there. I could have made

683
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:56,560
Speaker 3: some money there. I loved it.

684
00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 2: That's how I learned about page six and about you know,

685
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 2: all of these various place I see the cool people

686
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 2: hang out with York. And then I went into politics,

687
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 2: and I was like fashion to politics sort of a

688
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 2: lateral move, but no, so otherwise I've just been doing this,

689
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:11,960
Speaker 2: you know, since I was literally almost in diapers.

690
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 1: Incredible, just talking to you for forty five minutes. Your

691
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 1: brain is like that twelve cylinder engine that I see

692
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:21,719
Speaker 1: with so many people in your field, which is a

693
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 1: mastery of both facts and perspectives.

694
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:25,720
Speaker 3: Well, thank you.

695
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 1: The mastery of both, which is like, here's what the

696
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 1: facts are and here's so I want you to understand

697
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 1: them and how I want to shape the discussion with

698
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:35,560
Speaker 1: you often leads to people being you know, there's really

699
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,160
Speaker 1: no place else for them to go. The type of

700
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 1: person who not just goes into your field, but they

701
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 1: go into your field and they excel a certain kind

702
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:46,080
Speaker 1: of a you know that they just have their brain

703
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 1: is seething all the time with all this information. Did

704
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 1: you at any point think you wanted out you wanted

705
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 1: to get out? No? Never, never. If you could see

706
00:33:56,320 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 1: her face right now, it's priceless, she's like, no, no, actually, no.

707
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:02,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, well there was.

708
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 2: There was one point I almost left the governor in

709
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 2: the summer of twenty twenty, after the first wave of

710
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:10,840
Speaker 2: COVID had sort of normalized, and we were incredibly close

711
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 2: with then Vice President Biden and his team, and there

712
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 2: was a period of time where the governor and I

713
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:18,320
Speaker 2: were talking to their team about me leaving the governor

714
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:20,520
Speaker 2: and going to work on Biden's team for the end

715
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 2: sprint of the election. And I almost left in August

716
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 2: of twenty twenty to do that, but then decided that

717
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 2: New York wasn't done with COVID, there was probably going

718
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 2: to be a second wave.

719
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:32,960
Speaker 3: And that I could be more of more use in

720
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:34,399
Speaker 3: New York to the people of New York.

721
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:36,719
Speaker 2: And I think about all the time if I had

722
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 2: done that and left in August of twenty twenty and

723
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:41,880
Speaker 2: I wouldn't have been there for any of the scandal,

724
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 2: any of that twenty twenty one, what would it have

725
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:46,840
Speaker 2: looked like? And I often think about, you know what,

726
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:48,960
Speaker 2: I have been better off with my life have been different,

727
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 2: But you know what, I stayed there until we turned

728
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:54,279
Speaker 2: off the lights, and I'm proud of the loyalty and

729
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:55,880
Speaker 2: the commitment. And at the end of the day, I

730
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:57,880
Speaker 2: don't think I would have traded it in because people

731
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,759
Speaker 2: needed somebody there who could stilby laser focused and get

732
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 2: the government going while we're doing the vaccines and everything else.

733
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:08,360
Speaker 1: Of course, lots of my conversations are a very armchair

734
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 1: with friends of mine who are not in charge of

735
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,719
Speaker 1: public policy. They're not government officials and so forth, state

736
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 1: or a federal but they're powerful business people. They're people

737
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,880
Speaker 1: who are worth billions of dollars. And I work with

738
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 1: them in certain charitable organizations typically and things like that,

739
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 1: and some are my friends, and you know, they give

740
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 1: me that very thumbnail view that COVID pushes a significant

741
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:31,919
Speaker 1: number of people out of the city. Yep, they leave.

742
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 1: The revenue of the city is lower than it's been

743
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 1: in forever. Yes, and the costs to fix the city

744
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:40,239
Speaker 1: are higher than ever.

745
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:40,760
Speaker 3: Yes.

746
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:43,359
Speaker 1: And we have a mayor in New York who, rather

747
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:46,719
Speaker 1: than getting into any diatribe about him one thing, I

748
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:48,960
Speaker 1: see him here and there, and I'm always aware where

749
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 1: he's going at night. You always knew what social event

750
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:54,560
Speaker 1: he was at. But you don't hear one vowel or

751
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:57,360
Speaker 1: consonant about what he intends to do about the financial

752
00:35:57,400 --> 00:35:59,400
Speaker 1: crisis in the city. What are they going to do?

753
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,160
Speaker 2: So he's in a terrible position, and I actually feel

754
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,920
Speaker 2: for him because the revenues are down. He's making drastic

755
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:10,160
Speaker 2: cuts to the state agencies which are going to end

756
00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 2: up ultimately hurting the city. And it's not because he

757
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:15,279
Speaker 2: wants to, but it's because he's got nowhere else to go.

758
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 2: I mean, we're back to sort of ten cup, you know,

759
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:21,239
Speaker 2: of the seventies. And I think that if we don't

760
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:24,279
Speaker 2: get the crime problem under control, and they can hit

761
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:26,759
Speaker 2: me with NYPDS stats till they're blue in the face,

762
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:28,719
Speaker 2: the city does not feel as safe as it did

763
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 2: ten years ago, five years ago, between that and the

764
00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:35,000
Speaker 2: migrant crisis and the homeless crisis. If they don't start

765
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 2: to get some of these things out under control, you're

766
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:39,960
Speaker 2: going to continue to see outward migration, which is then

767
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:42,399
Speaker 2: going to make the problem even worse. And I think

768
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:44,719
Speaker 2: that he's sort of right now underwater, especially with the

769
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 2: migrant crisis, which by the way, was created by the

770
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 2: federal government unilaterally with their changes to the border policies,

771
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:52,640
Speaker 2: and then we're sort of dealing with the brunt of

772
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:54,440
Speaker 2: it and not getting the money and not getting the

773
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:56,960
Speaker 2: help or the resources. So he's bogged down with that,

774
00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 2: which I really sympathize on. But you know, this is

775
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 2: what I've said before, It's like, post COVID A crisis

776
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:06,160
Speaker 2: is an opportunity re envision what New York is going

777
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:08,440
Speaker 2: to be for the next generation. How do we attract

778
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:11,400
Speaker 2: some of these industries, these growing businesses. How do we

779
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:13,600
Speaker 2: get younger people wanting to come here, How do we

780
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:15,359
Speaker 2: get people to stay here? How do we get people

781
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:18,439
Speaker 2: who left to come back? And those conversations aren't had.

782
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 1: We need to eliminate the real estate vacancy exemption. And

783
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:25,160
Speaker 1: then if you can't ride off.

784
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:26,760
Speaker 3: If you've got a vacant building.

785
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:28,319
Speaker 1: You have a vacant building, you can only write it

786
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:29,920
Speaker 1: off for a certain period. And I don't care if

787
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:31,520
Speaker 1: you put a sneaker store in there and it was

788
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:34,239
Speaker 1: an art gallery before, I don't care. Yeah, okay, you

789
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 1: need to be income producing in that building and paying taxes.

790
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:38,719
Speaker 2: Yes, And I also think we need to and if

791
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:40,799
Speaker 2: there's a real problem that's structural, then we need to

792
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:43,239
Speaker 2: put incentives in place to get people in where then

793
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:45,480
Speaker 2: they're starting to make money and then they stay in

794
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:49,320
Speaker 2: for five ten year releases. But no one's having these conversations.

795
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:51,359
Speaker 2: You and I are having it sitting in a sound booth.

796
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 2: But this should be the conversation that's driving Kathy Hochele

797
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:57,279
Speaker 2: and Eric Adams, and instead we don't hear much.

798
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 1: That's terrible. With the time we have left. I'm assuming

799
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:02,880
Speaker 1: you've got a very mixed response to the book. People

800
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:03,400
Speaker 1: who were.

801
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,400
Speaker 2: You know, it's incredible. It's actually been like ninety ten positive.

802
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:09,200
Speaker 2: And I was really bracing for the other way around,

803
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:11,719
Speaker 2: because there were a lot of people who chased us

804
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 2: out of office, and a lot of people who are

805
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:16,239
Speaker 2: very loud on social media, who you know, don't like

806
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:18,360
Speaker 2: the governor and want to see him dead and gone,

807
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:21,920
Speaker 2: And so I was really bracing, But outside of one

808
00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:24,480
Speaker 2: or two outlets, it's really been very positive.

809
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:25,400
Speaker 3: It's been heartening.

810
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 1: Actually, well, let me ask you this. I mean, the

811
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:29,160
Speaker 1: answer is probably an obvious one, but I want to

812
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:33,239
Speaker 1: hear your answer. You describe the scene when all this

813
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 1: stuff you bring the message to the governor and there's

814
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 1: a back and forth and he says, fuck Maureen Dowd.

815
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 1: Why was Maureen Dowdy in your opinion someone like that?

816
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:45,480
Speaker 1: Why are some of the leading lights of the left

817
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:47,280
Speaker 1: side of the aisle so cruel?

818
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:50,520
Speaker 2: You know? I feel like that period of time, and

819
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:52,480
Speaker 2: I have an entire chapter in the book called Media

820
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 2: Circus where I sort of go through the media's role

821
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:58,560
Speaker 2: in the takedown of the administration, and it had become

822
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:01,799
Speaker 2: an arms race, absolute arms race. And you know what

823
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:03,920
Speaker 2: it is to get wrapped up in these media cycles

824
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:06,880
Speaker 2: where they're just unrelenting, and you read things in a

825
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:08,760
Speaker 2: paper and you're like, really, that's what happened.

826
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:11,320
Speaker 3: No it didn't. I was efer, now, yeah, exactly.

827
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 2: You know, there's no standards, there's everything in that blne source,

828
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:17,080
Speaker 2: there's no truth in the press, you know all of it,

829
00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:20,040
Speaker 2: and we had gotten into this place where you know,

830
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:22,680
Speaker 2: and again the manipulation of what Tiss James did in

831
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 2: her report was she used this number eleven, and so

832
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:28,000
Speaker 2: nobody even paid attention to the details. And when you

833
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:30,560
Speaker 2: actually pull back the curtain and you see eight or

834
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:33,759
Speaker 2: nine of the eleven, our plain vanilla meet and greet,

835
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:36,840
Speaker 2: kiss on the cheek. Okay, maybe you shouldn't call someone's sweetheart,

836
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:38,440
Speaker 2: but you have to resign because of that, Like that

837
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 2: was one of the eleven. You know, putting your hands

838
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:42,680
Speaker 2: on someone's face at a wedding as you're taking a

839
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:45,480
Speaker 2: photograph with him, These were one of the eleven. And

840
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:48,600
Speaker 2: so I think what happened was then she drops the report.

841
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:52,120
Speaker 2: She says, the number eleven. No one looks through the report,

842
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:54,879
Speaker 2: nobody reads the report, nobody cares about the details. Where

843
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:57,680
Speaker 2: there's smoke, there's fire, Oh my god, eleven. You've got

844
00:39:57,760 --> 00:39:59,759
Speaker 2: to resign. And everyone who has stood by him is

845
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:03,839
Speaker 2: an enabler. And Joe Biden actually went out who had

846
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:06,880
Speaker 2: been a good friend of Andrew Cuomo's for twenty years,

847
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:08,520
Speaker 2: good friend of Mary O Cuomo's.

848
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:10,400
Speaker 3: Andrew Cuomo was a good friend with his son Bo,

849
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:12,680
Speaker 3: who died. When Bo died, Andrew Cuomo was the first

850
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:15,960
Speaker 3: person online at the week. You know, these relationships went

851
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 3: back decades. And in the moments after this report comes out,

852
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:23,279
Speaker 3: Joe Biden goes out and says, eleven women. I didn't

853
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,000
Speaker 3: read the report, but I saw the press conference He's

854
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 3: got to resign, and that created this stampede of all

855
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:32,360
Speaker 3: the politicians saying he's got to go, and the press.

856
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:34,959
Speaker 3: You know, it was all over this. So mooring doubt

857
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:37,040
Speaker 3: I write about in that in the book.

858
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:39,440
Speaker 2: That was actually what pushed me to resign, because I

859
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 2: woke up that Sunday morning and my mother called me

860
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:45,759
Speaker 2: and she had just Hitler's enabler and she called me

861
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:47,520
Speaker 2: and she said, did you see this? And I said, Mom,

862
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:49,360
Speaker 2: how many times I told you not to read the

863
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:51,520
Speaker 2: New York Post? And she said, no, no, no, no, it

864
00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:54,920
Speaker 2: was the New York Times. Yeah, exactly, you straighten there out.

865
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:57,840
Speaker 2: She said, no, it's more in doubt. And she wrote

866
00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 2: this whole column comparing me and a bunch of my

867
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:04,000
Speaker 2: other colleagues and Chris Qualmo and these people to Hitler's enablers,

868
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:08,080
Speaker 2: and also to Harvey Weinstein's enablers, and I couldn't take

869
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:08,680
Speaker 2: it anymore.

870
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:10,600
Speaker 3: I was like enabling what.

871
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 2: Kissing someone on the cheek, by the way, which is

872
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:15,560
Speaker 2: something I see politicians do every day today while I'm

873
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:18,000
Speaker 2: sitting here with you, And so it just it was

874
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:22,879
Speaker 2: a moment of hysteria and political opportunism, and I think

875
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 2: the state has suffered as a result, because I think

876
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:27,560
Speaker 2: it lost one of the greatest executives it's ever had.

877
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:28,960
Speaker 3: And the proof is in the pudding.

878
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:30,799
Speaker 2: I mean, look where we are today versus where we

879
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:32,440
Speaker 2: were pre COVID, It's not even close.

880
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:35,640
Speaker 1: What was the reaction you got from women about being

881
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:36,920
Speaker 1: a defender of promos?

882
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:39,640
Speaker 2: You know, the reaction I got from women in real

883
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:43,240
Speaker 2: time versus the reaction today is very stark and couldn't

884
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 2: be more different back then. It was even from my girlfriends, Missy,

885
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 2: what are you doing? You know, Melissa, what are you thinking?

886
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:51,440
Speaker 2: You shouldn't stand by him, You need to separate yourself

887
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:54,120
Speaker 2: from him. And today so many people say, you know,

888
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 2: he was screwed and he was railroaded. And it's great

889
00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 2: to see a strong woman who can actually see nuance

890
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:03,399
Speaker 2: and gray and not just head for the hills and

891
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:06,520
Speaker 2: push back on some of this nonsense. And again it's

892
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:08,840
Speaker 2: not that I'm saying I don't believe these women. I

893
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 2: believe eight or nine of them. There are photographs of

894
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:13,319
Speaker 2: these intractions. They were all in public spaces. It was

895
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:15,840
Speaker 2: the hysteria of it that I never allowed myself to

896
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:18,440
Speaker 2: succumb to, and so many women today. I mean, you

897
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:20,719
Speaker 2: should walk down the street with Andrew Cuomo in Manhattan,

898
00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:23,680
Speaker 2: the you know reception he gets from people pulling over

899
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 2: to take photographs and you were relroaded and run again

900
00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:27,800
Speaker 2: and when when are you going to run again?

901
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:29,520
Speaker 3: And so I think that now.

902
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 2: That the fog of COVID has cleared and the hysteria

903
00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:34,160
Speaker 2: as well behind us, people look back at it with

904
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:37,560
Speaker 2: a much more sober assessment that was just not afforded

905
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:38,760
Speaker 2: to anybody in real.

906
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:41,800
Speaker 1: Time when I read the book. And you can comment

907
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:45,160
Speaker 1: on this. You know, your your ex husband complained about

908
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:49,640
Speaker 1: your you know, ceaseless focus on your job. And I

909
00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:52,000
Speaker 1: understand that because there's people when you get married, you

910
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:53,439
Speaker 1: either get me or you don't.

911
00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:55,400
Speaker 3: Yep, what would you do differently?

912
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:55,920
Speaker 1: If anything?

913
00:42:57,160 --> 00:42:57,960
Speaker 3: You know, there's a.

914
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:01,160
Speaker 2: Lot of probably micro things I would differently, you know,

915
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:03,080
Speaker 2: when people ask me during COVID. You know, if you

916
00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:04,640
Speaker 2: look back and would you do things differently? And I

917
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:06,719
Speaker 2: say I would do everything differently now that I you know,

918
00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 2: because we were dealing in imperfect information and now knowing

919
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:12,560
Speaker 2: what we know now retrospectively, but on a macro sense,

920
00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:14,880
Speaker 2: and maybe this, you know, I'm such a screwed up

921
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 2: human being that I would say this. But I don't

922
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:20,319
Speaker 2: know that I would make any macro moves differently. Yes,

923
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:24,200
Speaker 2: I sacrificed my personal life. Yes I dealt with infertility.

924
00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:27,200
Speaker 2: I'm forty one years old and single right now. But

925
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 2: you know what, I got to be there to lead

926
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:31,680
Speaker 2: the world through COVID. I got to make a difference

927
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:34,280
Speaker 2: in people's lives by doing a fifteen dollars minimum wage

928
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:38,360
Speaker 2: and being part of overhauling LaGuardia. Everything work princes legislation,

929
00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:41,920
Speaker 2: and you know it's I see the contributions, the physical

930
00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:45,320
Speaker 2: contributions in Moynihand Station and LaGuardia Airport, in JFK and

931
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:46,879
Speaker 2: the Marioquimal Bridge, and I.

932
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:48,680
Speaker 3: Don't know that I would give any of that up.

933
00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:50,840
Speaker 2: I mean what, I have tried to be more present,

934
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:54,640
Speaker 2: somewhat sure, But I also think we lie to ourselves

935
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 2: when we say, you know, time is zero sum, and

936
00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:00,400
Speaker 2: I was really really good at what I did, but

937
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 2: it's because I dedicated all of myself. And I'm not

938
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:05,319
Speaker 2: sure I would have been as effective and been as

939
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:07,759
Speaker 2: successful as I was, as young as I was if

940
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:09,360
Speaker 2: I ever took my foot off the gas.

941
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:11,799
Speaker 3: And that's just the reality.

942
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:14,600
Speaker 2: So I think Macro, I'd probably do it all the

943
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:16,680
Speaker 2: same micro, I'd make a lot of little changes.

944
00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:19,680
Speaker 1: You want to get back in there, Oh, for sure

945
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:20,160
Speaker 1: you do.

946
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:24,280
Speaker 3: I love public service and coming along with the service

947
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:26,840
Speaker 3: or politics, both they go hand in hand.

948
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:30,400
Speaker 1: You seem to avoid that word. You said public service twice.

949
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:33,240
Speaker 2: Politics, government, public service, they all go hand in hand.

950
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:35,440
Speaker 2: And you know what people say to me, what are

951
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:38,000
Speaker 2: you crazy? You were batted around like a pinata, and

952
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:39,319
Speaker 2: the press they chased you.

953
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:41,040
Speaker 3: I had paparazzi hounding me.

954
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:43,840
Speaker 2: And the reality is, you get in the ring, you

955
00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:45,360
Speaker 2: know you're going to get punched in the face.

956
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:47,359
Speaker 3: But who's standing at the end.

957
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:50,680
Speaker 2: And I think that doing good in the world and

958
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:52,840
Speaker 2: making these contributions is worth getting punched in the.

959
00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:55,120
Speaker 3: Face a little. So develop a skin, you develop a

960
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:55,640
Speaker 3: thick skin.

961
00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 1: Do you think Trump's going to win?

962
00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:02,719
Speaker 2: I do today here today, Yes, I mean, and you've

963
00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:05,680
Speaker 2: got Jill Stein just announced Joe Manchin's retiring.

964
00:45:05,719 --> 00:45:06,279
Speaker 3: What's he up to?

965
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:07,920
Speaker 2: Is he going to run on the no party you know,

966
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:12,839
Speaker 2: no labels party ticket? These battleground state poles this far out,

967
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:14,880
Speaker 2: I know everyone wants to be dismissive of them. I

968
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:17,360
Speaker 2: think we should be sounding the alarm. I think unless

969
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:19,680
Speaker 2: we make some changes fast, and we start to engage

970
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:21,880
Speaker 2: with real people and get more in tune with what

971
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:25,719
Speaker 2: matters to them, mainly pocketbook issues, gas prices, I think

972
00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:27,360
Speaker 2: we're looking at an upset and I'm not sure this

973
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:29,640
Speaker 2: country can survive another four years of Donald Trump.

974
00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:31,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, I totally. I mean Hillary came out so that

975
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:33,200
Speaker 1: the other day it'll be the end of the country.

976
00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:33,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, it'll be the.

977
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:36,799
Speaker 1: End, which is just which is something It's interesting to

978
00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:39,840
Speaker 1: me that people think that the United States is immune

979
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 1: to that kind of thing, that that it can't happen here,

980
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:44,800
Speaker 1: that the country can't morph into something that's unrecognizable.

981
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:46,880
Speaker 2: I mean, we saw it on January sixth, we saw

982
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:49,600
Speaker 2: a preview. So if he's back in power and people

983
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:52,800
Speaker 2: are granted immunity, and you know, all of a sudden,

984
00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:55,239
Speaker 2: he's embracing real life Nazis and things like he was

985
00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:56,160
Speaker 2: doing in Charlottesville.

986
00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:57,160
Speaker 3: I mean, where's the end?

987
00:45:57,360 --> 00:45:59,280
Speaker 2: Like they sort of went a little bit more underground

988
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:02,160
Speaker 2: since he's gone, But if he comes back, I mean,

989
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:04,040
Speaker 2: I think it's going to be times ten what we

990
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:05,719
Speaker 2: saw during his first.

991
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:09,040
Speaker 1: And I obviously thought that he was going to be

992
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:14,080
Speaker 1: in real trouble with the January sixth charges because dozens

993
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:17,480
Speaker 1: of people have already been tried, convicted and sense for

994
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:20,080
Speaker 1: that crime, and if you lump him in with them that.

995
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:24,480
Speaker 1: I thought that the square footage there was vast because

996
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:27,160
Speaker 1: of the other people that were convicted. But I think

997
00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:33,080
Speaker 1: nothing is more jerking and frenetic than speculation about politics.

998
00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:37,240
Speaker 1: Is Newsom's going to jump in, somebody gonn tap Biden

999
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:39,040
Speaker 1: on the shoulder, and so you've got to get out now,

1000
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:40,360
Speaker 1: I don't think so.

1001
00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 2: I mean, Axelrod tried, you know, on Twitter or the

1002
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:45,359
Speaker 2: other day David Axelrod said it's time we all come

1003
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:47,960
Speaker 2: to terms with this, and the reaction from the party

1004
00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:50,000
Speaker 2: was not great, And so you know, I don't think

1005
00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:52,240
Speaker 2: Newsom's going to jump in. I don't think anyone serious

1006
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:54,279
Speaker 2: is going to jump in. I think it's going to

1007
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:56,000
Speaker 2: be what it is. The best thing we could do

1008
00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:59,120
Speaker 2: at this point is try to, you know, massage some

1009
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:01,960
Speaker 2: of our messages and focus on some of these pocketbook

1010
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:05,239
Speaker 2: issues and try to turn the conversation because just having

1011
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:08,080
Speaker 2: an anti Trump dialogue is not going to be enough.

1012
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:10,400
Speaker 3: It's not good to be against something. You've got to

1013
00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:11,439
Speaker 3: show people what you're for.

1014
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:13,359
Speaker 2: And now that he's been in office for three years,

1015
00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:16,000
Speaker 2: it's what have you done for me lately? And a

1016
00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:19,200
Speaker 2: lot of his legislative accomplishments are great, but we're not

1017
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:20,879
Speaker 2: going to feel the effects of them for three four

1018
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:23,600
Speaker 2: five years, and people feel economically worse off.

1019
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 3: What you know, Wall Street isn't doing as well.

1020
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:28,640
Speaker 2: Inflation is still out of control, so interest rates are

1021
00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:30,040
Speaker 2: up when you're trying to buy a house, and so,

1022
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:33,080
Speaker 2: you know, people start to glorify the past.

1023
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:34,759
Speaker 3: Oh, when Trump was there, it wasn't this.

1024
00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:38,560
Speaker 2: Bad, and oh, by the way, you know, how much

1025
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:40,359
Speaker 2: worse can it get? And so then you get into

1026
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:42,880
Speaker 2: this bad place where you forget how bad it was.

1027
00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:45,080
Speaker 2: You forget that we had a lunatic in the White

1028
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:47,880
Speaker 2: House who was you know, tweeting these crazy things, and

1029
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:50,040
Speaker 2: the things he said about women and the things that

1030
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:52,560
Speaker 2: the supporters he embraced, and you sort of wash all

1031
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:53,840
Speaker 2: of that away with time.

1032
00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:56,520
Speaker 3: And so I am. I'm petrified, and I think more

1033
00:47:56,560 --> 00:47:57,239
Speaker 3: people should be.

1034
00:47:57,520 --> 00:47:59,640
Speaker 1: Yeah. When I even when I live in New York,

1035
00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:01,960
Speaker 1: I woke at the door and I say, these four

1036
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:04,440
Speaker 1: people over here voted for Biden, and these four people

1037
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:07,920
Speaker 1: over here voted for Trump, and those two to finish

1038
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:11,000
Speaker 1: not the ten percent image and those two were undecided.

1039
00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:11,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, but it.

1040
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:14,279
Speaker 1: Still means of the voting population, half of these people

1041
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:16,760
Speaker 1: voted for Trump, even in New York City, I believe.

1042
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:18,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, the numbers are not And like you know,

1043
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:21,720
Speaker 2: New York City, you would think Trump should go. Seventy

1044
00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:24,759
Speaker 2: thirty is where they should go. And you know it's

1045
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:27,360
Speaker 2: just and again keep your eye on Long Island. I

1046
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:30,759
Speaker 2: look at that bellwether the rhetor gets, the scarier it is,

1047
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:31,600
Speaker 2: so we'll see.

1048
00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:35,320
Speaker 1: I thought Ronald Reagan was a president who said to people,

1049
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:38,360
Speaker 1: you know, you want to have a swimming pool, and

1050
00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:40,360
Speaker 1: the federal government wants to tax you in such a

1051
00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:42,360
Speaker 1: way where they're going to give out clean condoms and

1052
00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:45,360
Speaker 1: needles to kids in New York City. And don't you

1053
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:47,000
Speaker 1: think those kids in New York City should take care

1054
00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:49,799
Speaker 1: of themselves, and you should have a swimming pool. Tax

1055
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:52,319
Speaker 1: policies should be adjusted where you pay less taxes and

1056
00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 1: they'll be taken care of by somebody else. Churches, whatever,

1057
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:58,120
Speaker 1: you deserve to have a second car or a swimming pool,

1058
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:01,839
Speaker 1: it's your money. And Reagan freed people to go more

1059
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:04,919
Speaker 1: greedy and more self directed. Trump is someone who's taken

1060
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:06,720
Speaker 1: it to this unbelievable height.

1061
00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:07,560
Speaker 3: Oh yeah.

1062
00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:09,920
Speaker 1: What he said to people is you hate black people,

1063
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:13,680
Speaker 1: you hate gay people, You have no use for women

1064
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:15,920
Speaker 1: being You don't believe women should be equal men.

1065
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:16,719
Speaker 3: Just say it.

1066
00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:19,000
Speaker 1: You should be able to say whatever you want. This

1067
00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:21,920
Speaker 1: is America, I mean a free speecher. So whatever ugly

1068
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:24,839
Speaker 1: things they think you're saying, whatever you're saying they think

1069
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:27,600
Speaker 1: are ugly to say, don't worry about them. Say whatever

1070
00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:31,879
Speaker 1: you feel. And that's why we hear hatred this drum beat.

1071
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:34,560
Speaker 1: One last question for you, and that is I'm probably

1072
00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:37,560
Speaker 1: obviously teeing up the ball here. I wouldn't say one person,

1073
00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:41,480
Speaker 1: but among the people you've known, worked with, or encountered,

1074
00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:44,880
Speaker 1: name one politician you admire the most.

1075
00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:47,399
Speaker 3: One politician. Well, I think I have to say Andrew

1076
00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:49,920
Speaker 3: or else. That's true.

1077
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:54,680
Speaker 2: You admire him look in terms of his ability, his effectiveness,

1078
00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:57,359
Speaker 2: but not even close, not even close. I can't name

1079
00:49:57,400 --> 00:50:00,600
Speaker 2: one other politician that comes close to the level of

1080
00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:03,160
Speaker 2: contributions he did during his time in office.

1081
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:06,080
Speaker 1: I read this book. It is a fabulous book because

1082
00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:09,000
Speaker 1: it's a woman talking about her career and her life

1083
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:10,960
Speaker 1: in the intersection in a way I don't really hear

1084
00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:13,360
Speaker 1: that often. When I do, it's not as well written.

1085
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:15,239
Speaker 1: This is a very well written book. Your book is

1086
00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:16,280
Speaker 1: a really wonderful book.

1087
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Speaker 3: Thank you, Thank you so much. Thank you for coming on,

1088
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:19,560
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.

1089
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Speaker 1: My Thanks to Melissa de Rosa. This episode was recorded

1090
00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:32,759
Speaker 1: at CDM Studios in New York City. We're produced by

1091
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:36,960
Speaker 1: Kathleen Russo, Zach MacNeice, and Maureen Hoban. Our engineer is

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00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:41,399
Speaker 1: Frank Imperial. Our social media manager is Danielle Gingrich. I'm

1093
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:43,920
Speaker 1: Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing. Is brought to you by

1094
00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:45,480
Speaker 1: iHeart Radio.

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00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:01,399
Speaker 3: I don't come