WEBVTT - Thinking Sideways: Vatican Murders 0:00:04.320 --> 0:00:17.279 Thinking Sideways. I don't stories of things we simply don't 0:00:17.280 --> 0:00:22.439 know the answer too. Hi there, and welcome to another 0:00:22.480 --> 0:00:29.920 episode of Thinking Sideways. Yeah, hi, Hey, I'm I'm Joe, 0:00:30.360 --> 0:00:35.640 joined by my co hosts and Steve, and we're going 0:00:35.720 --> 0:00:40.320 to talk about a really, really weird mystery. Yeah, okay. 0:00:40.440 --> 0:00:45.760 Today we're gonna talk about the Vatican mergers. Yeah. Yeah, 0:00:45.760 --> 0:00:49.280 it's it's kind of convoluted. There's a list that's controversial. 0:00:49.800 --> 0:00:53.040 Our mystery starts May four. It was a dark and 0:00:53.080 --> 0:00:58.720 stormy night. You stole that right out of mystery novel, 0:00:58.760 --> 0:01:01.400 didn't you. Yeah, you know, you know, the dark and 0:01:01.440 --> 0:01:04.520 stormy night is considered like the one of the worst 0:01:04.520 --> 0:01:07.920 phrase there, one of the worst sentences. Yeah. Yeah, so 0:01:07.959 --> 0:01:10.080 I had to throw it in. I don't know how 0:01:10.120 --> 0:01:11.880 stormy it was. I hear it was rainy, so I 0:01:11.959 --> 0:01:14.959 just sort of just sort of bump that up license, 0:01:15.040 --> 0:01:18.760 Yeah exactly. Now back to our mystery. It begins in 0:01:18.920 --> 0:01:21.679 Vatican City. You probably all know where that place is. 0:01:21.720 --> 0:01:24.759 If not paused and go do a google. A young 0:01:24.800 --> 0:01:28.640 guy named Cedric Tournay entered the barracks of the Swiss Guards, 0:01:28.760 --> 0:01:31.720 which is next to the Apostolic Palace. Or which is 0:01:31.720 --> 0:01:34.160 where the Pope lives. I can already tell that I'm 0:01:34.200 --> 0:01:37.480 gonna mispronounce literally all of these words. Oh yeah, there's some, 0:01:37.560 --> 0:01:39.880 there's some, there's a feeling in here that's literally know. 0:01:39.959 --> 0:01:41.520 There's one that I didn't even try to figure out 0:01:41.520 --> 0:01:43.800 how to pronounce it. Yeah, okay, this one was tough. 0:01:43.840 --> 0:01:47.160 I'll tell you right now. I told Joe earlier some 0:01:47.280 --> 0:01:49.360 of these words and names that we that are in 0:01:49.400 --> 0:01:52.320 this story, I'm really trying to figure out pronunciations. And 0:01:52.440 --> 0:01:56.680 this is all based in Italy, so I'm watching Italian news, 0:01:57.200 --> 0:02:01.120 I don't know Italian, trying to pick out somebody's name 0:02:01.200 --> 0:02:03.600 to know how to pronounce it. It's harder than you 0:02:03.600 --> 0:02:06.280 would think. Yeah, I, oh, well it's Italian. Never mind, 0:02:06.320 --> 0:02:09.560 I'll be great at it. Sweets, that's your part Italian. Right. 0:02:10.280 --> 0:02:13.600 So back to Cedric. He ended the barracks of the 0:02:13.600 --> 0:02:16.440 Swiss Guards. Um. He had a gun with them, a 0:02:16.520 --> 0:02:20.680 signal millimitter automatic, which actually wasn't unusual because he was 0:02:20.680 --> 0:02:22.840 a lance corporal in the Swiss Guard and they actually 0:02:23.040 --> 0:02:25.160 they actually do carry guns. I guess they didn't realize that. 0:02:25.200 --> 0:02:28.440 I thought they just had those weird like halberds. Yeah, 0:02:28.480 --> 0:02:33.400 they carry they have swords, halberd's, pistols and submachine guns. Odd. 0:02:33.520 --> 0:02:38.000 That's the odd collection of weapons. Okay, Yeah, And I 0:02:37.360 --> 0:02:40.240 I did not actually take the trouble to find this out, 0:02:40.280 --> 0:02:42.760 but I might research it. Anyways. I'm curious about if 0:02:42.760 --> 0:02:44.680 they if they actually get training and how to use 0:02:44.720 --> 0:02:48.280 their swords and halberds. They do they do? They do? 0:02:48.639 --> 0:02:52.840 They do get training and at that time their target 0:02:52.840 --> 0:02:56.520 practice requirement it was one day a year. That's all 0:02:56.560 --> 0:02:59.400 they had to practice. That's all. That's all I have. 0:03:01.400 --> 0:03:04.519 I'm sorry. And the Swiss Guard for those of you 0:03:04.600 --> 0:03:06.840 don't know what the Swiss Guard is, it's a small 0:03:06.919 --> 0:03:09.360 arm the Swiss mercenaries who guard the Pope in the Vatican. 0:03:10.280 --> 0:03:13.200 They have been for I think this is like the 0:03:13.240 --> 0:03:17.679 five anniversary this year that they've served the Vatican. They 0:03:17.800 --> 0:03:20.320 and as I've already said, what they're armed with. I 0:03:20.320 --> 0:03:22.359 also want to tell you just a brief background, a 0:03:22.360 --> 0:03:25.120 little biographical information about our cast of characters, which is 0:03:25.160 --> 0:03:28.560 basically there's two main people here. Of course we've already 0:03:28.560 --> 0:03:31.480 talked about Tornay he was twenty three and Swiss French, 0:03:32.360 --> 0:03:39.119 the French speakers in Switzerland. Or maybe of the population. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:03:39.200 --> 0:03:43.160 about that roughly, and so for obvious reasons, they are 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:46.320 they were a minority in the Swiss Guard, and Tournay 0:03:46.360 --> 0:03:48.200 had been with a Swiss Guard for about three years 0:03:48.240 --> 0:03:50.360 and recently been promoted to the lands corporals. So he 0:03:50.400 --> 0:03:53.320 was doing okay, he was doing all right. Yeah. The 0:03:53.400 --> 0:03:58.280 other protagonist share Colonel Oliwis Esterman, who will be meeting shortly. 0:03:58.320 --> 0:04:00.800 It was the commandant of the Guard. He'd been on 0:04:00.840 --> 0:04:03.880 the Guard. He was in joined in nineteen seventy seven, 0:04:04.000 --> 0:04:06.760 left lived in South America and Argentina for two years, 0:04:06.760 --> 0:04:09.400 and then came back in July nineteen eighty. He rejoined 0:04:09.400 --> 0:04:12.200 the Swiss Guard as an officer and then he was 0:04:12.200 --> 0:04:15.480 promoted a couple of times. Eventually he was appointed as 0:04:15.480 --> 0:04:18.279 the acting commander of the Swiss Guard. And this is 0:04:18.279 --> 0:04:20.840 the point of contention. Apparently there were people who did 0:04:20.839 --> 0:04:24.240 not want to make his appointment permanent as a commandant 0:04:24.600 --> 0:04:29.039 and so, and reportedly that they even included perhaps Pope 0:04:29.120 --> 0:04:32.560 John Paul the Second Yeah, which is interesting because he 0:04:32.640 --> 0:04:35.960 served as Jump Paul the second bodyguard for years and 0:04:35.960 --> 0:04:38.600 he traveled all over the world with him and John 0:04:38.640 --> 0:04:41.479 Paul spoke highly of him, so it's a bit odd. 0:04:41.520 --> 0:04:43.680 So I'm not entirely sure that that's true or not. 0:04:44.480 --> 0:04:46.960 This Vatican stuff, it's so tortured and convoluted, I mean, 0:04:46.960 --> 0:04:50.240 who can tell. And also, by the way, Esterman was 0:04:50.279 --> 0:04:53.159 Swiss German, meaning that he was among the majority of 0:04:53.160 --> 0:04:55.880 Swiss people who speak German, which also, by the way, 0:04:56.000 --> 0:04:58.520 is not like regular world German, and it's a totally 0:04:58.520 --> 0:05:01.520 different dialect. So it is a big language barrier between 0:05:01.520 --> 0:05:04.680 the Swiss French and the switch Swiss German, which leads 0:05:04.720 --> 0:05:08.160 to problems in the Swiss Guard. Yeah. Well, and only 0:05:08.480 --> 0:05:14.200 you have to be eighteen and natively born Swiss to 0:05:14.279 --> 0:05:18.080 be in a Swiss Guard, and there was like eighteen 0:05:18.080 --> 0:05:21.040 to thirty, but it's something I can't remember. The right. 0:05:21.880 --> 0:05:23.480 You have to be a Hapger guy, and you have 0:05:23.560 --> 0:05:26.080 to have served in the military. I'd have to be 0:05:26.120 --> 0:05:28.479 a Catholic. You have to be at least five ft 0:05:28.480 --> 0:05:31.680 eight inches tall, Is that true? Yeah? Actually, have to 0:05:31.680 --> 0:05:34.040 be more precise five ft eight and a half inches tall. 0:05:34.200 --> 0:05:37.760 Is that true? That's true? Yeah, you can't be any shorter. Yeah. 0:05:38.400 --> 0:05:39.720 I guess they want the guards to be tall and 0:05:39.760 --> 0:05:42.840 imposing people. I guess I could never be a Swiss Guard. 0:05:42.920 --> 0:05:48.720 Then you're about the Yeah, plus you're not a male 0:05:48.760 --> 0:05:53.760 and I'm not. Are you Catholic? No Swiss? You're almost there, 0:05:53.960 --> 0:05:59.120 I'm halfway. Yeah, So there is this whole language barrier 0:05:59.200 --> 0:06:01.599 and then cultural differences in the Guard was lead us 0:06:01.600 --> 0:06:03.479 to a little bit of tension. I hear, yeah, well 0:06:03.520 --> 0:06:06.120 that's that's the problem is I was doing a bunch 0:06:06.120 --> 0:06:10.800 of research on this and you said, it's percent of 0:06:10.839 --> 0:06:13.440 the Swiss or French Swiss? Is that right? Roughly? You know? 0:06:13.520 --> 0:06:16.039 Actually I just saw the numbers on on wiki and 0:06:16.040 --> 0:06:18.640 then compared to the overall, Well that that sounds very 0:06:18.680 --> 0:06:21.520 con was the things that I've didn't use a calculator. 0:06:21.560 --> 0:06:23.960 I just that are rough out in my mind. But 0:06:24.440 --> 0:06:28.839 the point, the point is is that when the guys 0:06:28.960 --> 0:06:34.159 who are Swiss French join the Swiss Guard and they 0:06:34.240 --> 0:06:39.239 come in the everybody in the Swiss Guard speak Swiss German, 0:06:39.440 --> 0:06:42.200 so they don't even know the language to start with. 0:06:42.320 --> 0:06:45.560 So they're already at a disadvantage, which is because they 0:06:45.680 --> 0:06:49.720 learned German in school. But it's more standards. Yeah, yeah, 0:06:49.880 --> 0:06:52.440 that's exactly the problem. And that's so it's these guys 0:06:52.440 --> 0:06:55.479 are just they're they're they're already a peg down from 0:06:55.520 --> 0:06:59.320 day one. Yeah. So Tornell went to the apartment of 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:02.480 Luis Esterman and he was led in by Estterman's wife. 0:07:02.520 --> 0:07:06.520 His name was Gladys Mazo Romero. She was Venezualan. By 0:07:06.520 --> 0:07:08.800 the way, of course she was. Of course she's been 0:07:08.839 --> 0:07:11.680 an actress or model. I heard she used to be 0:07:11.680 --> 0:07:13.920 a model. Yeah, it was a model. Yeah, he was 0:07:14.000 --> 0:07:15.560 led in by the wife. He pulled out his gun, 0:07:15.680 --> 0:07:19.920 shot Esterman twice, killing him, and then shot Gladys Romero twice, 0:07:19.960 --> 0:07:23.280 also killing her. And and I might say, by the 0:07:23.320 --> 0:07:25.960 way too, there's actually no no actual evidence that he 0:07:26.040 --> 0:07:29.679 shot Esterman first and the wife's second. There actually isn't. 0:07:29.720 --> 0:07:32.720 That was pointed out by by a pathologist, actually not, 0:07:32.760 --> 0:07:35.760 if not one of the Vatican pathologists. Esserman was in 0:07:35.840 --> 0:07:39.120 a chair and fell out of the chair after being shot. 0:07:39.920 --> 0:07:43.880 So it's presumed that he was shot first because if 0:07:43.920 --> 0:07:46.560 his wife had been shot first, he just stood up 0:07:46.600 --> 0:07:50.400 and started, you know, moving, moving where, and so he 0:07:50.440 --> 0:07:52.920 wouldn't have been slumped and fallen out of a chair 0:07:53.120 --> 0:07:56.520 unless he shot the wife and was sitting. And listen, 0:07:57.160 --> 0:08:00.400 I'm sure there is yeah, I mean it could have 0:08:00.400 --> 0:08:02.160 been you know, you could have gone bing bing bing bang, 0:08:02.160 --> 0:08:06.960 he could have shot estimate. Yeah, wife wants Yeah, let's 0:08:06.960 --> 0:08:10.000 talk about this in theories maybe, yeah, we will. Yeah. Uh. 0:08:10.200 --> 0:08:12.480 Then after that he dropped to his knees, put the 0:08:12.480 --> 0:08:14.880 gun in his mouth and pulled the trigger. That escalated 0:08:14.960 --> 0:08:17.640 real quickly. I know, I know. And it's kind of 0:08:17.640 --> 0:08:20.280 a sad thing actually, But anyway, so we have a 0:08:20.360 --> 0:08:24.280 murder suicide thing going on here. But yeah, that's the question. 0:08:24.320 --> 0:08:26.800 Some people say not there are a lot of theories. 0:08:26.840 --> 0:08:29.200 Some people say it was actually a triple murder. Well 0:08:29.240 --> 0:08:32.840 it is the Vatican, committed by dark forces within the Vatican. 0:08:33.160 --> 0:08:35.200 So we'll talk about all those theories a little bit 0:08:35.280 --> 0:08:37.680 later on. Yeah, it's pretty much. It's pretty muddy. Yeah 0:08:37.679 --> 0:08:41.520 it is. And frankly, there's a little disinformation in there 0:08:41.559 --> 0:08:44.000 about some things like the Masons and stuff like that. 0:08:45.679 --> 0:08:48.280 This is going to be the best episode. Yeah, if 0:08:48.320 --> 0:08:51.800 you love the Mason stuff, I do. So what was 0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:55.200 his motive? Good question? Yeah, Well apparently that you know, 0:08:55.240 --> 0:08:57.280 as you know that the French, the French and the 0:08:57.320 --> 0:09:00.320 German guys and the Swiss cards apparently have a you know, 0:09:00.679 --> 0:09:04.080 it was a little thing there, like a murdery thing 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:07.080 or just like now you take that to have murders 0:09:07.120 --> 0:09:11.400 more often if that were yeah, or fights or scuffles. Yeah, yeah, 0:09:11.559 --> 0:09:15.360 but but apparently the German speakers do dominate the Swiss Guard. 0:09:15.440 --> 0:09:19.160 Apparently there was there was talk that Tornay resented that 0:09:19.840 --> 0:09:23.840 and resented the way the Guard was run. Apparently his 0:09:23.920 --> 0:09:28.160 relationship with Esterman was strained. Accorded to many accounts, there 0:09:28.160 --> 0:09:31.240 was a guy who wrote a book about this British 0:09:31.280 --> 0:09:33.679 journalist named John Feline, and he talked to a lot 0:09:33.679 --> 0:09:38.320 of X cards and documented that Esteman did not like Tornay. No, 0:09:38.559 --> 0:09:41.480 he seemed to he had something out for It was 0:09:41.520 --> 0:09:46.600 really weird specifically. Yeah, yeah, he seemed to single him out, 0:09:47.120 --> 0:09:50.679 which I never understood what the basis of that was, 0:09:51.280 --> 0:09:55.520 other than some disciplinary issues that are called out. Sometimes 0:09:55.559 --> 0:09:58.600 you just don't like a dude. Yeah, I know that happens, um, 0:09:58.679 --> 0:10:00.520 but but some of the some of it was ex 0:10:00.520 --> 0:10:04.240 guard friends said that, you know, as far as disciplinary issues, 0:10:04.280 --> 0:10:06.679 there were a few, but no worse than anybody else. 0:10:07.360 --> 0:10:09.800 Torn And and some of the other French speaking guards, 0:10:10.160 --> 0:10:11.960 as they were in the minority, they often complain of 0:10:11.960 --> 0:10:15.760 harassment by the German speaking, the component of the Swiss Guards, 0:10:16.760 --> 0:10:19.960 and especially Esterman. It's a next guard who was a friend. 0:10:20.000 --> 0:10:23.160 Attorney said, and I'm gonna quote here, Esterman couldn't stand 0:10:23.200 --> 0:10:26.200 having French speakers around. He'd always tell us you Swiss, 0:10:26.240 --> 0:10:28.280 French have no place in the Swiss Guard. There was 0:10:28.320 --> 0:10:30.400 no room for you here. So apparently it was kind 0:10:30.400 --> 0:10:34.200 of bigot. Yeah, yeah, Esterman Tornay were not best buds. 0:10:34.360 --> 0:10:38.960 But was that enough to cause murder? That's that's especially 0:10:38.960 --> 0:10:42.320 after three years, I guess you kind of would kind 0:10:42.320 --> 0:10:44.720 of build up. I generally think that sort of thing 0:10:44.960 --> 0:10:47.640 comes to a head earlier than that. Three years is 0:10:47.679 --> 0:10:50.400 a long time to kind of stick it out. But well, 0:10:50.440 --> 0:10:52.679 I think that he might have. He might have stuck 0:10:52.679 --> 0:10:56.160 it out because at that usually typically after three years 0:10:56.200 --> 0:10:59.720 of service in Swiss Guards, you're awarded a medal which 0:10:59.760 --> 0:11:03.880 is hang on, a Bennamarenti medal, which is this this 0:11:04.000 --> 0:11:06.960 cool medal that the Pope awards to people who have 0:11:07.240 --> 0:11:10.760 done service to the Catholic Church for three years. Yeah, 0:11:11.040 --> 0:11:13.839 after three years, typically you get this metal. And so 0:11:14.000 --> 0:11:15.959 he might have decided to stick it after three years, 0:11:15.960 --> 0:11:18.200 because you know, I got the medal and the medal 0:11:18.240 --> 0:11:21.000 would probably look good in your resume. I was gonna say, 0:11:21.040 --> 0:11:24.880 I think the minimum tours also three years. I think 0:11:24.920 --> 0:11:27.440 there's that too. Well, it's it's the accept I wouldn't 0:11:27.440 --> 0:11:31.000 say the minimum tour. The accepted you're an okay individual 0:11:31.040 --> 0:11:32.559 for having been in the Swiss Guard is to be 0:11:32.600 --> 0:11:37.079 able to hang on for three years. Oh, I guess, yeah, 0:11:37.200 --> 0:11:39.200 I mean sure, but if you're going to murder somebody, 0:11:39.200 --> 0:11:41.640 why wait three years, because it's not like you're going 0:11:41.679 --> 0:11:44.920 to get your medal or your commendation and then if 0:11:44.920 --> 0:11:48.160 you're going to kill anyways, Yeah, I'm sorry, keep talking 0:11:48.160 --> 0:11:50.120 about this story. Well, let's go back to our mystery. 0:11:51.000 --> 0:11:53.240 Within minutes of the murders. That the murders, by the way, 0:11:53.240 --> 0:11:55.439 we're discovered. The bodies were discovered by a nun who 0:11:55.480 --> 0:11:57.480 lived in the apartment next door, who heard a loud 0:11:57.520 --> 0:12:00.240 noise and so she came and check. Found some days 0:12:00.320 --> 0:12:04.000 and then uh sent out the alarm. The Vatican sealed 0:12:04.000 --> 0:12:06.560 off the apartment. No one was allowed near the scene 0:12:06.559 --> 0:12:10.439 of the crime, including Italian police. Technically, the Vatican is 0:12:10.520 --> 0:12:13.840 an independent state and they have their own police force. Yeah, 0:12:13.840 --> 0:12:16.760 they don't have to let the Italian police in no, no, 0:12:16.920 --> 0:12:19.719 not at all, within three hours. This is about The 0:12:20.160 --> 0:12:22.120 bodies were discovered at an i PM. I forgot to 0:12:22.120 --> 0:12:26.400 mention that about midnight, in about three hours, and there 0:12:26.400 --> 0:12:29.520 had not yet been an autopsy, of course. A Vatican 0:12:29.559 --> 0:12:32.959 spokesman named Joaquin Navarro Valls issues a statement on behalf 0:12:32.960 --> 0:12:36.080 of the Vatican which I'll quote here quote. The captain 0:12:36.120 --> 0:12:40.000 commander of the Bontifical Swiss Guard, Captain Alouis Estruman, was 0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:42.679 found dead in his home together with his wife gladys 0:12:42.840 --> 0:12:47.880 Maisa Romero and Vice Corporal Cedric Tournay. The bodies were 0:12:47.880 --> 0:12:49.839 discovered shortly after an IPM by a neighbor from the 0:12:49.880 --> 0:12:52.719 apartment next door. It was attracted by loud noises. From 0:12:52.720 --> 0:12:55.719 a first investigation, it is possible to affirm that all 0:12:55.800 --> 0:12:58.240 three were killed by a firearm. Under the body of 0:12:58.280 --> 0:13:02.240 the vice corporal, his regulation weapon was found. The information 0:13:02.240 --> 0:13:04.600 which has emerged up to this point allows for the 0:13:04.600 --> 0:13:08.000 theory of a quote fit of badness unquote by Vice 0:13:08.040 --> 0:13:11.839 Corporal Tournay unquote. That sounds like the sort of thing 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:18.320 that people were diagnosed with madness. It's a super quick diet, 0:13:18.679 --> 0:13:21.240 you know. We know what's happened three hours later, we 0:13:21.320 --> 0:13:24.240 figured it all out, Like that's such a quick Yeah, yeah, 0:13:24.360 --> 0:13:26.440 I know, I know, it really is. It might be 0:13:26.520 --> 0:13:28.079 that they talked to some of some of the people 0:13:28.160 --> 0:13:32.520 who some of the Swiss officers, and they said that 0:13:32.559 --> 0:13:35.080 there was bad blood between those two. Perhaps that was it. 0:13:35.160 --> 0:13:38.000 But the quick leap to leap to judgment, it's kind 0:13:38.000 --> 0:13:41.319 of hoted the Vatican ever since because people are there 0:13:41.320 --> 0:13:45.199 accused of going out and rendering judgment without knowing the facts. 0:13:45.559 --> 0:13:49.840 Or maybe they already knew too much. Yeah, maybe they 0:13:49.880 --> 0:13:52.360 know more than it let on and they're leaking. They 0:13:52.360 --> 0:13:55.840 were giving their official story to facts. Yeah that's supposed 0:13:55.840 --> 0:13:59.640 to mean. Yeah, yeah. About twenty four hours after the murder, 0:13:59.679 --> 0:14:02.840 and other Vatican spokesman said that Tornay was quote an 0:14:02.840 --> 0:14:07.160 individual suff suffering from the psychological disorder of paranoia unquote. 0:14:07.520 --> 0:14:10.440 Although he had never met Tornay and there's no none 0:14:10.440 --> 0:14:13.480 of his none of his ex guard friends or co workers, 0:14:13.480 --> 0:14:15.080 whatever you want to call him, ever said that he 0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:20.040 was paranoid. Yeah. No, he was angry, but not paranoid. Yeah, well, 0:14:20.040 --> 0:14:22.480 he probably had good reason to be angry. Another claim 0:14:22.520 --> 0:14:25.240 that somebody put out was that Tornay was high on 0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:27.000 marijuana at the time of the You know, I've been 0:14:27.040 --> 0:14:29.600 saying this a lot lately, but that's one of the 0:14:29.680 --> 0:14:32.960 stupidest things I've ever heard in my entire life, that 0:14:32.960 --> 0:14:35.920 that because he was high he did the killing pot. 0:14:36.640 --> 0:14:39.080 I'm sorry, but every pot head that I've ever known 0:14:39.880 --> 0:14:43.800 doesn't get off the couch. He don't have the motivation 0:14:43.840 --> 0:14:47.280 to go on somebody down. If you have the motivation, 0:14:47.480 --> 0:14:49.920 the paranoia isn't like, oh, I better kill this person, 0:14:50.000 --> 0:14:53.960 because okay, I can't speak for everybody, right, but my 0:14:54.120 --> 0:14:56.720 sense is that the paranoia that comes with pot is like, 0:14:57.200 --> 0:14:59.800 oh my god, everybody's looking at me. Everything is going wrong. 0:15:00.160 --> 0:15:01.880 It's not oh, I know I can get away with 0:15:01.960 --> 0:15:05.080 murder right now. Yeah, that's the dumbest thing. That's a 0:15:05.160 --> 0:15:08.600 completely different drug. And it was I think it was 0:15:08.800 --> 0:15:12.760 trace amounts were found in his his blood stream. Had 0:15:12.840 --> 0:15:16.560 to do be like at some point, yeah, yeah, And 0:15:17.080 --> 0:15:20.360 supposedly when they searched his room they found a couple 0:15:20.440 --> 0:15:25.640 of what did they marijuana? Cigarette? They were little joints 0:15:26.160 --> 0:15:30.280 in a drawer. But god knows, he might have once 0:15:30.320 --> 0:15:32.200 a you know, a month or so, couldn't sleep and 0:15:32.240 --> 0:15:33.720 took a hit of pot. And that was it. I mean, 0:15:33.760 --> 0:15:37.160 but it doesn't. That doesn't drive you to kill somebody 0:15:37.200 --> 0:15:45.480 does know, Steve, I haven't ever heard of red madness. Okay, 0:15:45.840 --> 0:15:49.200 Away from pot back to our mystery. The Vatican performed 0:15:49.240 --> 0:15:53.400 autopsies bodies, uh, and they were sworn to secretly and 0:15:54.000 --> 0:15:57.720 supposedly kept no written notes. Yeah, I find that hard 0:15:57.760 --> 0:16:01.040 to believe. The Vatican documents every thing. Yeah, they have 0:16:01.440 --> 0:16:04.880 huge proves of documents. Yeah, but this is out there 0:16:04.920 --> 0:16:07.360 if you read, if you go out and look this 0:16:07.440 --> 0:16:09.720 mystery up, that's what they all said. They kept no notes, 0:16:09.800 --> 0:16:12.479 And I can find that impossible to believe. Literally impossible. 0:16:12.640 --> 0:16:18.360 So I read Fourny's book The City of Secrets or 0:16:18.680 --> 0:16:21.160 Fullane Sorry I don't know four. I don't know who 0:16:21.200 --> 0:16:25.840 fourney is, but Fullane's book and sorry, he's the author 0:16:25.880 --> 0:16:28.160 that wrote City of Secrets that Joe was talking about, 0:16:30.440 --> 0:16:32.760 because he did a lot of the research on this, 0:16:33.080 --> 0:16:36.400 And when I was reading it, I didn't I swear 0:16:36.520 --> 0:16:40.920 I never saw they never kept a record. I think 0:16:40.960 --> 0:16:44.480 it was they were sworn to secrecy and those documents 0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:47.560 were sealed away. Vatican hung on to him, but they 0:16:47.600 --> 0:16:49.920 just don't talk about it. Nobody ever knows there's not 0:16:50.040 --> 0:16:52.560 much point in doing on autopsy without taking notes. Yeah, 0:16:52.600 --> 0:16:55.000 I know. By the way, the book City of Secrets 0:16:55.000 --> 0:16:58.440 by John Fullane, a British journalist, is available on audible. 0:16:58.440 --> 0:17:04.439 Doctor Chess kidding, but actually I wanted to mention it 0:17:04.440 --> 0:17:06.119 now anyway, because I'm going to quote some people a 0:17:06.119 --> 0:17:08.960 little later on. And most of the quotes that I've 0:17:09.160 --> 0:17:11.679 I've got about this mystery are from that book. He 0:17:11.960 --> 0:17:14.960 seems to have done the authority hated work because he 0:17:15.359 --> 0:17:19.840 did a ton of legwork. He did, and and so 0:17:19.880 --> 0:17:22.520 a lot of the people who spoke to him are there. 0:17:22.560 --> 0:17:24.639 The quotes that I got from from those people I 0:17:24.640 --> 0:17:26.840 got out of his book. So so what did the 0:17:26.920 --> 0:17:30.720 Vatican corners is that? Who does? That's what they find 0:17:31.080 --> 0:17:34.840 They that was consistent with murder suicide with all the 0:17:34.840 --> 0:17:38.280 bullet holes and stuff. Yeah. They also found that Tornay 0:17:38.320 --> 0:17:41.199 had a brain tumor or a small lesion on his 0:17:41.200 --> 0:17:45.960 frontal lobe. Yeah, and their theory is that his behavior 0:17:46.200 --> 0:17:48.840 was either caused by the tumor or by medication that 0:17:48.880 --> 0:17:51.480 he was taking for the tumor. I think this would 0:17:51.520 --> 0:17:53.159 be this would have been a really great time for 0:17:53.160 --> 0:17:56.919 me to reach out to our experts about and yeah, 0:17:57.040 --> 0:18:00.080 if it causes behavior like that, but it probably in 0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:01.879 the frontal lobe, is there's that's that's where a lot 0:18:01.920 --> 0:18:03.719 of your behavior is centered in your brain, you know. 0:18:03.800 --> 0:18:07.040 But it would happen. They found it really small, almost 0:18:07.040 --> 0:18:08.840 like a cyst, and it's like, I don't think it 0:18:08.920 --> 0:18:11.879 was something. Yeah it wasn't, but also that it seems 0:18:11.920 --> 0:18:14.160 like the behavior would have been around it wasn't like 0:18:14.440 --> 0:18:16.720 that seems like the sort of thing. And again this 0:18:16.800 --> 0:18:19.520 is total conjecture. I have no idea, but it seems 0:18:19.560 --> 0:18:21.600 like that would be an escalating thing, right, you would 0:18:21.640 --> 0:18:25.359 be having behavior problems as a trend, yeah, and not 0:18:25.560 --> 0:18:28.119 as you're totally cool and then suddenly you go shoot 0:18:28.119 --> 0:18:31.439 a couple of people. You don't. Yeah, that's just in 0:18:31.520 --> 0:18:34.480 my impression. But again I think you're right. I think that, 0:18:34.560 --> 0:18:36.280 you know, it starts out small and as a tour 0:18:36.359 --> 0:18:38.560 gets bigger and bigger, you know, you get more weird. 0:18:39.119 --> 0:18:42.280 Nobody reported that any of that. The Vatican also noted 0:18:42.320 --> 0:18:44.680 that he had recently broken up with his Roman girlfriend 0:18:45.280 --> 0:18:48.240 oh No, and that he had recently received a reprimand 0:18:48.320 --> 0:18:52.000 from Estruman for staying out all night and not coming 0:18:52.000 --> 0:18:54.359 back to the Vatican. Apparently, you know, for the support 0:18:54.359 --> 0:18:56.600 Swiss card to do that, you have to get permission, 0:18:57.160 --> 0:18:59.000 and didn't know with that permission, so it's kind of 0:18:59.000 --> 0:19:01.480 like being a wall so a letter of reprimand yeah, 0:19:01.480 --> 0:19:05.760 they I think it's one level. One level of rank, 0:19:05.840 --> 0:19:08.080 you're able to be out till midnight. The next level 0:19:08.119 --> 0:19:10.520 you're able to be up till one o'clock in the morning. 0:19:11.160 --> 0:19:13.600 I think it's how it. Basically, every the curfew is 0:19:13.680 --> 0:19:17.479 one am. Yeah, and then everybody has to be in. Yes, 0:19:17.600 --> 0:19:20.080 that makes sense, you're technically out of the country. Yeah, 0:19:20.119 --> 0:19:22.840 it's true. And you are in the military. You really 0:19:22.840 --> 0:19:25.960 are still be kind of kind of suck to be 0:19:26.000 --> 0:19:29.879 in Rome and you know, have to be have a curfew. Yeah, 0:19:30.000 --> 0:19:33.040 that's true. Yeah, and then he was twenty three probably 0:19:33.520 --> 0:19:37.200 apparently from everything I've heard, a high spirited lad. Yeah, 0:19:37.280 --> 0:19:40.040 I'd never bet. I want to go. I was recently there. 0:19:40.080 --> 0:19:42.440 It's awesome. Yeah, I need a guy. I'd love to 0:19:42.480 --> 0:19:44.720 go to the Vatican. This podcast is really making it 0:19:44.880 --> 0:19:47.400 easy for me to travel all the time. O. Yeah, 0:19:47.800 --> 0:19:49.879 what's funding my trips to Roman? That would make so 0:19:49.960 --> 0:19:53.639 much money off this? Yeah. Oh, back to the Vatican. 0:19:53.720 --> 0:19:56.639 They s yeah, they after when they released their theory 0:19:56.680 --> 0:19:59.000 about what about the brain tumor and all that. They 0:19:59.040 --> 0:20:01.600 also really really used a letter because he wrote a 0:20:01.680 --> 0:20:04.119 letter right before he committed this act and handed it 0:20:04.160 --> 0:20:07.240 over to one of his ex one of his guard buddies, 0:20:07.800 --> 0:20:10.760 asking this guy to get it to his mother, and 0:20:10.880 --> 0:20:13.400 apparently that guy turned it over to the Vatican, and 0:20:13.880 --> 0:20:15.680 it was a final letter to his mother which hadn't 0:20:15.680 --> 0:20:17.840 been mailed. And then mother, by the way, says it's 0:20:17.880 --> 0:20:20.960 a forgery. Yeah, but there'll be more on the letter 0:20:21.000 --> 0:20:24.080 in a minute. But the statement said that were made 0:20:24.119 --> 0:20:28.520 behavioral changes, paranoia, drug use really conflict with what Torney's 0:20:28.520 --> 0:20:30.959 fellow guards had to say about him. He had been 0:20:30.960 --> 0:20:32.800 in there for three years, and he was he had 0:20:32.800 --> 0:20:35.880 been recently promoted. He was he had a responsible position. 0:20:35.880 --> 0:20:37.440 He was in charge of all the guards deployed in 0:20:37.480 --> 0:20:39.919 the Apostolic Palace, which is where the Pope was, as 0:20:39.920 --> 0:20:42.880 I mentioned earlier, So I mean that's you know, that's 0:20:42.880 --> 0:20:46.960 a responsible position, right, uh, and also monitor Saint Saint 0:20:47.000 --> 0:20:49.320 Ann's Gate, which is one of the main entry points 0:20:49.320 --> 0:20:52.600 in the Vatican. And I've got quotes from his fellow 0:20:52.640 --> 0:20:55.000 guards which I won't I won't repeat them all. But 0:20:55.040 --> 0:20:57.960 apparently they thought he was a great guy. Yeah. I 0:20:57.960 --> 0:21:00.720 I didn't hear and I didn't see anything him other 0:21:00.760 --> 0:21:04.080 Swiss guard that there was anything bad about the guy, yeah, 0:21:04.560 --> 0:21:08.920 Or that he was going around the bend. Yeah, nobody 0:21:09.119 --> 0:21:12.800 noticed anything like that. So after they had their services 0:21:12.800 --> 0:21:15.719 for both the instruments and Tornay, and then after that, 0:21:15.880 --> 0:21:19.760 Tornay's body was flown back to Switzerland for another funeral there, 0:21:19.800 --> 0:21:23.800 of course, but his mother, whose name is Muguette Bade 0:21:24.119 --> 0:21:26.399 stole the body. She arranged to have the body taken 0:21:26.440 --> 0:21:29.920 from a Swiss morgue. So she had she hired or 0:21:30.160 --> 0:21:32.000 or maybe you got actually I don't know she paid 0:21:32.040 --> 0:21:37.480 him or not. I love it. But professor of forensic 0:21:37.520 --> 0:21:42.120 medicine named Dr Thomas Krompecker did a second autopsy, and 0:21:43.359 --> 0:21:47.200 based on his conclusion, Tornay's mother hired two French lawyers. 0:21:47.400 --> 0:21:49.439 I won't bother naming them because I'll probably be pronounced 0:21:49.440 --> 0:21:53.560 their names and the press. The lawyers had a press 0:21:53.600 --> 0:21:57.720