Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways. I don't stories of things we simply don't
Speaker 1: know the answer too. Hi there, and welcome to another
Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Sideways. Yeah, hi, Hey, I'm I'm Joe,
Speaker 1: joined by my co hosts and Steve, and we're going
Speaker 1: to talk about a really, really weird mystery. Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1: Today we're gonna talk about the Vatican mergers. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's kind of convoluted. There's a list that's controversial.
Speaker 1: Our mystery starts May four. It was a dark and
Speaker 1: stormy night. You stole that right out of mystery novel,
Speaker 1: didn't you. Yeah, you know, you know, the dark and
Speaker 1: stormy night is considered like the one of the worst
Speaker 1: phrase there, one of the worst sentences. Yeah. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: I had to throw it in. I don't know how
Speaker 1: stormy it was. I hear it was rainy, so I
Speaker 1: just sort of just sort of bump that up license,
Speaker 1: Yeah exactly. Now back to our mystery. It begins in
Speaker 1: Vatican City. You probably all know where that place is.
Speaker 1: If not paused and go do a google. A young
Speaker 1: guy named Cedric Tournay entered the barracks of the Swiss Guards,
Speaker 1: which is next to the Apostolic Palace. Or which is
Speaker 1: where the Pope lives. I can already tell that I'm
Speaker 1: gonna mispronounce literally all of these words. Oh yeah, there's some,
Speaker 1: there's some, there's a feeling in here that's literally know.
Speaker 1: There's one that I didn't even try to figure out
Speaker 1: how to pronounce it. Yeah, okay, this one was tough.
Speaker 1: I'll tell you right now. I told Joe earlier some
Speaker 1: of these words and names that we that are in
Speaker 1: this story, I'm really trying to figure out pronunciations. And
Speaker 1: this is all based in Italy, so I'm watching Italian news,
Speaker 1: I don't know Italian, trying to pick out somebody's name
Speaker 1: to know how to pronounce it. It's harder than you
Speaker 1: would think. Yeah, I, oh, well it's Italian. Never mind,
Speaker 1: I'll be great at it. Sweets, that's your part Italian. Right.
Speaker 1: So back to Cedric. He ended the barracks of the
Speaker 1: Swiss Guards. Um. He had a gun with them, a
Speaker 1: signal millimitter automatic, which actually wasn't unusual because he was
Speaker 1: a lance corporal in the Swiss Guard and they actually
Speaker 1: they actually do carry guns. I guess they didn't realize that.
Speaker 1: I thought they just had those weird like halberds. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they carry they have swords, halberd's, pistols and submachine guns. Odd.
Speaker 1: That's the odd collection of weapons. Okay, Yeah, And I
Speaker 1: I did not actually take the trouble to find this out,
Speaker 1: but I might research it. Anyways. I'm curious about if
Speaker 1: they if they actually get training and how to use
Speaker 1: their swords and halberds. They do they do? They do?
Speaker 1: They do get training and at that time their target
Speaker 1: practice requirement it was one day a year. That's all
Speaker 1: they had to practice. That's all. That's all I have.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. And the Swiss Guard for those of you
Speaker 1: don't know what the Swiss Guard is, it's a small
Speaker 1: arm the Swiss mercenaries who guard the Pope in the Vatican.
Speaker 1: They have been for I think this is like the
Speaker 1: five anniversary this year that they've served the Vatican. They
Speaker 1: and as I've already said, what they're armed with. I
Speaker 1: also want to tell you just a brief background, a
Speaker 1: little biographical information about our cast of characters, which is
Speaker 1: basically there's two main people here. Of course we've already
Speaker 1: talked about Tornay he was twenty three and Swiss French,
Speaker 1: the French speakers in Switzerland. Or maybe of the population. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: about that roughly, and so for obvious reasons, they are
Speaker 1: they were a minority in the Swiss Guard, and Tournay
Speaker 1: had been with a Swiss Guard for about three years
Speaker 1: and recently been promoted to the lands corporals. So he
Speaker 1: was doing okay, he was doing all right. Yeah. The
Speaker 1: other protagonist share Colonel Oliwis Esterman, who will be meeting shortly.
Speaker 1: It was the commandant of the Guard. He'd been on
Speaker 1: the Guard. He was in joined in nineteen seventy seven,
Speaker 1: left lived in South America and Argentina for two years,
Speaker 1: and then came back in July nineteen eighty. He rejoined
Speaker 1: the Swiss Guard as an officer and then he was
Speaker 1: promoted a couple of times. Eventually he was appointed as
Speaker 1: the acting commander of the Swiss Guard. And this is
Speaker 1: the point of contention. Apparently there were people who did
Speaker 1: not want to make his appointment permanent as a commandant
Speaker 1: and so, and reportedly that they even included perhaps Pope
Speaker 1: John Paul the Second Yeah, which is interesting because he
Speaker 1: served as Jump Paul the second bodyguard for years and
Speaker 1: he traveled all over the world with him and John
Speaker 1: Paul spoke highly of him, so it's a bit odd.
Speaker 1: So I'm not entirely sure that that's true or not.
Speaker 1: This Vatican stuff, it's so tortured and convoluted, I mean,
Speaker 1: who can tell. And also, by the way, Esterman was
Speaker 1: Swiss German, meaning that he was among the majority of
Speaker 1: Swiss people who speak German, which also, by the way,
Speaker 1: is not like regular world German, and it's a totally
Speaker 1: different dialect. So it is a big language barrier between
Speaker 1: the Swiss French and the switch Swiss German, which leads
Speaker 1: to problems in the Swiss Guard. Yeah. Well, and only
Speaker 1: you have to be eighteen and natively born Swiss to
Speaker 1: be in a Swiss Guard, and there was like eighteen
Speaker 1: to thirty, but it's something I can't remember. The right.
Speaker 1: You have to be a Hapger guy, and you have
Speaker 1: to have served in the military. I'd have to be
Speaker 1: a Catholic. You have to be at least five ft
Speaker 1: eight inches tall, Is that true? Yeah? Actually, have to
Speaker 1: be more precise five ft eight and a half inches tall.
Speaker 1: Is that true? That's true? Yeah, you can't be any shorter. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I guess they want the guards to be tall and
Speaker 1: imposing people. I guess I could never be a Swiss Guard.
Speaker 1: Then you're about the Yeah, plus you're not a male
Speaker 1: and I'm not. Are you Catholic? No Swiss? You're almost there,
Speaker 1: I'm halfway. Yeah, So there is this whole language barrier
Speaker 1: and then cultural differences in the Guard was lead us
Speaker 1: to a little bit of tension. I hear, yeah, well
Speaker 1: that's that's the problem is I was doing a bunch
Speaker 1: of research on this and you said, it's percent of
Speaker 1: the Swiss or French Swiss? Is that right? Roughly? You know?
Speaker 1: Actually I just saw the numbers on on wiki and
Speaker 1: then compared to the overall, Well that that sounds very
Speaker 1: con was the things that I've didn't use a calculator.
Speaker 1: I just that are rough out in my mind. But
Speaker 1: the point, the point is is that when the guys
Speaker 1: who are Swiss French join the Swiss Guard and they
Speaker 1: come in the everybody in the Swiss Guard speak Swiss German,
Speaker 1: so they don't even know the language to start with.
Speaker 1: So they're already at a disadvantage, which is because they
Speaker 1: learned German in school. But it's more standards. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's exactly the problem. And that's so it's these guys
Speaker 1: are just they're they're they're already a peg down from
Speaker 1: day one. Yeah. So Tornell went to the apartment of
Speaker 1: Luis Esterman and he was led in by Estterman's wife.
Speaker 1: His name was Gladys Mazo Romero. She was Venezualan. By
Speaker 1: the way, of course she was. Of course she's been
Speaker 1: an actress or model. I heard she used to be
Speaker 1: a model. Yeah, it was a model. Yeah, he was
Speaker 1: led in by the wife. He pulled out his gun,
Speaker 1: shot Esterman twice, killing him, and then shot Gladys Romero twice,
Speaker 1: also killing her. And and I might say, by the
Speaker 1: way too, there's actually no no actual evidence that he
Speaker 1: shot Esterman first and the wife's second. There actually isn't.
Speaker 1: That was pointed out by by a pathologist, actually not,
Speaker 1: if not one of the Vatican pathologists. Esserman was in
Speaker 1: a chair and fell out of the chair after being shot.
Speaker 1: So it's presumed that he was shot first because if
Speaker 1: his wife had been shot first, he just stood up
Speaker 1: and started, you know, moving, moving where, and so he
Speaker 1: wouldn't have been slumped and fallen out of a chair
Speaker 1: unless he shot the wife and was sitting. And listen,
Speaker 1: I'm sure there is yeah, I mean it could have
Speaker 1: been you know, you could have gone bing bing bing bang,
Speaker 1: he could have shot estimate. Yeah, wife wants Yeah, let's
Speaker 1: talk about this in theories maybe, yeah, we will. Yeah. Uh.
Speaker 1: Then after that he dropped to his knees, put the
Speaker 1: gun in his mouth and pulled the trigger. That escalated
Speaker 1: real quickly. I know, I know. And it's kind of
Speaker 1: a sad thing actually, But anyway, so we have a
Speaker 1: murder suicide thing going on here. But yeah, that's the question.
Speaker 1: Some people say not there are a lot of theories.
Speaker 1: Some people say it was actually a triple murder. Well
Speaker 1: it is the Vatican, committed by dark forces within the Vatican.
Speaker 1: So we'll talk about all those theories a little bit
Speaker 1: later on. Yeah, it's pretty much. It's pretty muddy. Yeah
Speaker 1: it is. And frankly, there's a little disinformation in there
Speaker 1: about some things like the Masons and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: This is going to be the best episode. Yeah, if
Speaker 1: you love the Mason stuff, I do. So what was
Speaker 1: his motive? Good question? Yeah, Well apparently that you know,
Speaker 1: as you know that the French, the French and the
Speaker 1: German guys and the Swiss cards apparently have a you know,
Speaker 1: it was a little thing there, like a murdery thing
Speaker 1: or just like now you take that to have murders
Speaker 1: more often if that were yeah, or fights or scuffles. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: but but apparently the German speakers do dominate the Swiss Guard.
Speaker 1: Apparently there was there was talk that Tornay resented that
Speaker 1: and resented the way the Guard was run. Apparently his
Speaker 1: relationship with Esterman was strained. Accorded to many accounts, there
Speaker 1: was a guy who wrote a book about this British
Speaker 1: journalist named John Feline, and he talked to a lot
Speaker 1: of X cards and documented that Esteman did not like Tornay. No,
Speaker 1: he seemed to he had something out for It was
Speaker 1: really weird specifically. Yeah, yeah, he seemed to single him out,
Speaker 1: which I never understood what the basis of that was,
Speaker 1: other than some disciplinary issues that are called out. Sometimes
Speaker 1: you just don't like a dude. Yeah, I know that happens, um,
Speaker 1: but but some of the some of it was ex
Speaker 1: guard friends said that, you know, as far as disciplinary issues,
Speaker 1: there were a few, but no worse than anybody else.
Speaker 1: Torn And and some of the other French speaking guards,
Speaker 1: as they were in the minority, they often complain of
Speaker 1: harassment by the German speaking, the component of the Swiss Guards,
Speaker 1: and especially Esterman. It's a next guard who was a friend.
Speaker 1: Attorney said, and I'm gonna quote here, Esterman couldn't stand
Speaker 1: having French speakers around. He'd always tell us you Swiss,
Speaker 1: French have no place in the Swiss Guard. There was
Speaker 1: no room for you here. So apparently it was kind
Speaker 1: of bigot. Yeah, yeah, Esterman Tornay were not best buds.
Speaker 1: But was that enough to cause murder? That's that's especially
Speaker 1: after three years, I guess you kind of would kind
Speaker 1: of build up. I generally think that sort of thing
Speaker 1: comes to a head earlier than that. Three years is
Speaker 1: a long time to kind of stick it out. But well,
Speaker 1: I think that he might have. He might have stuck
Speaker 1: it out because at that usually typically after three years
Speaker 1: of service in Swiss Guards, you're awarded a medal which
Speaker 1: is hang on, a Bennamarenti medal, which is this this
Speaker 1: cool medal that the Pope awards to people who have
Speaker 1: done service to the Catholic Church for three years. Yeah,
Speaker 1: after three years, typically you get this metal. And so
Speaker 1: he might have decided to stick it after three years,
Speaker 1: because you know, I got the medal and the medal
Speaker 1: would probably look good in your resume. I was gonna say,
Speaker 1: I think the minimum tours also three years. I think
Speaker 1: there's that too. Well, it's it's the accept I wouldn't
Speaker 1: say the minimum tour. The accepted you're an okay individual
Speaker 1: for having been in the Swiss Guard is to be
Speaker 1: able to hang on for three years. Oh, I guess, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean sure, but if you're going to murder somebody,
Speaker 1: why wait three years, because it's not like you're going
Speaker 1: to get your medal or your commendation and then if
Speaker 1: you're going to kill anyways, Yeah, I'm sorry, keep talking
Speaker 1: about this story. Well, let's go back to our mystery.
Speaker 1: Within minutes of the murders. That the murders, by the way,
Speaker 1: we're discovered. The bodies were discovered by a nun who
Speaker 1: lived in the apartment next door, who heard a loud
Speaker 1: noise and so she came and check. Found some days
Speaker 1: and then uh sent out the alarm. The Vatican sealed
Speaker 1: off the apartment. No one was allowed near the scene
Speaker 1: of the crime, including Italian police. Technically, the Vatican is
Speaker 1: an independent state and they have their own police force. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they don't have to let the Italian police in no, no,
Speaker 1: not at all, within three hours. This is about The
Speaker 1: bodies were discovered at an i PM. I forgot to
Speaker 1: mention that about midnight, in about three hours, and there
Speaker 1: had not yet been an autopsy, of course. A Vatican
Speaker 1: spokesman named Joaquin Navarro Valls issues a statement on behalf
Speaker 1: of the Vatican which I'll quote here quote. The captain
Speaker 1: commander of the Bontifical Swiss Guard, Captain Alouis Estruman, was
Speaker 1: found dead in his home together with his wife gladys
Speaker 1: Maisa Romero and Vice Corporal Cedric Tournay. The bodies were
Speaker 1: discovered shortly after an IPM by a neighbor from the
Speaker 1: apartment next door. It was attracted by loud noises. From
Speaker 1: a first investigation, it is possible to affirm that all
Speaker 1: three were killed by a firearm. Under the body of
Speaker 1: the vice corporal, his regulation weapon was found. The information
Speaker 1: which has emerged up to this point allows for the
Speaker 1: theory of a quote fit of badness unquote by Vice
Speaker 1: Corporal Tournay unquote. That sounds like the sort of thing
Speaker 1: that people were diagnosed with madness. It's a super quick diet,
Speaker 1: you know. We know what's happened three hours later, we
Speaker 1: figured it all out, Like that's such a quick Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I know, I know, it really is. It might be
Speaker 1: that they talked to some of some of the people
Speaker 1: who some of the Swiss officers, and they said that
Speaker 1: there was bad blood between those two. Perhaps that was it.
Speaker 1: But the quick leap to leap to judgment, it's kind
Speaker 1: of hoted the Vatican ever since because people are there
Speaker 1: accused of going out and rendering judgment without knowing the facts.
Speaker 1: Or maybe they already knew too much. Yeah, maybe they
Speaker 1: know more than it let on and they're leaking. They
Speaker 1: were giving their official story to facts. Yeah that's supposed
Speaker 1: to mean. Yeah, yeah. About twenty four hours after the murder,
Speaker 1: and other Vatican spokesman said that Tornay was quote an
Speaker 1: individual suff suffering from the psychological disorder of paranoia unquote.
Speaker 1: Although he had never met Tornay and there's no none
Speaker 1: of his none of his ex guard friends or co workers,
Speaker 1: whatever you want to call him, ever said that he
Speaker 1: was paranoid. Yeah. No, he was angry, but not paranoid. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: he probably had good reason to be angry. Another claim
Speaker 1: that somebody put out was that Tornay was high on
Speaker 1: marijuana at the time of the You know, I've been
Speaker 1: saying this a lot lately, but that's one of the
Speaker 1: stupidest things I've ever heard in my entire life, that
Speaker 1: that because he was high he did the killing pot.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, but every pot head that I've ever known
Speaker 1: doesn't get off the couch. He don't have the motivation
Speaker 1: to go on somebody down. If you have the motivation,
Speaker 1: the paranoia isn't like, oh, I better kill this person,
Speaker 1: because okay, I can't speak for everybody, right, but my
Speaker 1: sense is that the paranoia that comes with pot is like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, everybody's looking at me. Everything is going wrong.
Speaker 1: It's not oh, I know I can get away with
Speaker 1: murder right now. Yeah, that's the dumbest thing. That's a
Speaker 1: completely different drug. And it was I think it was
Speaker 1: trace amounts were found in his his blood stream. Had
Speaker 1: to do be like at some point, yeah, yeah, And
Speaker 1: supposedly when they searched his room they found a couple
Speaker 1: of what did they marijuana? Cigarette? They were little joints
Speaker 1: in a drawer. But god knows, he might have once
Speaker 1: a you know, a month or so, couldn't sleep and
Speaker 1: took a hit of pot. And that was it. I mean,
Speaker 1: but it doesn't. That doesn't drive you to kill somebody
Speaker 1: does know, Steve, I haven't ever heard of red madness. Okay,
Speaker 1: Away from pot back to our mystery. The Vatican performed
Speaker 1: autopsies bodies, uh, and they were sworn to secretly and
Speaker 1: supposedly kept no written notes. Yeah, I find that hard
Speaker 1: to believe. The Vatican documents every thing. Yeah, they have
Speaker 1: huge proves of documents. Yeah, but this is out there
Speaker 1: if you read, if you go out and look this
Speaker 1: mystery up, that's what they all said. They kept no notes,
Speaker 1: And I can find that impossible to believe. Literally impossible.
Speaker 1: So I read Fourny's book The City of Secrets or
Speaker 1: Fullane Sorry I don't know four. I don't know who
Speaker 1: fourney is, but Fullane's book and sorry, he's the author
Speaker 1: that wrote City of Secrets that Joe was talking about,
Speaker 1: because he did a lot of the research on this,
Speaker 1: And when I was reading it, I didn't I swear
Speaker 1: I never saw they never kept a record. I think
Speaker 1: it was they were sworn to secrecy and those documents
Speaker 1: were sealed away. Vatican hung on to him, but they
Speaker 1: just don't talk about it. Nobody ever knows there's not
Speaker 1: much point in doing on autopsy without taking notes. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know. By the way, the book City of Secrets
Speaker 1: by John Fullane, a British journalist, is available on audible.
Speaker 1: Doctor Chess kidding, but actually I wanted to mention it
Speaker 1: now anyway, because I'm going to quote some people a
Speaker 1: little later on. And most of the quotes that I've
Speaker 1: I've got about this mystery are from that book. He
Speaker 1: seems to have done the authority hated work because he
Speaker 1: did a ton of legwork. He did, and and so
Speaker 1: a lot of the people who spoke to him are there.
Speaker 1: The quotes that I got from from those people I
Speaker 1: got out of his book. So so what did the
Speaker 1: Vatican corners is that? Who does? That's what they find
Speaker 1: They that was consistent with murder suicide with all the
Speaker 1: bullet holes and stuff. Yeah. They also found that Tornay
Speaker 1: had a brain tumor or a small lesion on his
Speaker 1: frontal lobe. Yeah, and their theory is that his behavior
Speaker 1: was either caused by the tumor or by medication that
Speaker 1: he was taking for the tumor. I think this would
Speaker 1: be this would have been a really great time for
Speaker 1: me to reach out to our experts about and yeah,
Speaker 1: if it causes behavior like that, but it probably in
Speaker 1: the frontal lobe, is there's that's that's where a lot
Speaker 1: of your behavior is centered in your brain, you know.
Speaker 1: But it would happen. They found it really small, almost
Speaker 1: like a cyst, and it's like, I don't think it
Speaker 1: was something. Yeah it wasn't, but also that it seems
Speaker 1: like the behavior would have been around it wasn't like
Speaker 1: that seems like the sort of thing. And again this
Speaker 1: is total conjecture. I have no idea, but it seems
Speaker 1: like that would be an escalating thing, right, you would
Speaker 1: be having behavior problems as a trend, yeah, and not
Speaker 1: as you're totally cool and then suddenly you go shoot
Speaker 1: a couple of people. You don't. Yeah, that's just in
Speaker 1: my impression. But again I think you're right. I think that,
Speaker 1: you know, it starts out small and as a tour
Speaker 1: gets bigger and bigger, you know, you get more weird.
Speaker 1: Nobody reported that any of that. The Vatican also noted
Speaker 1: that he had recently broken up with his Roman girlfriend
Speaker 1: oh No, and that he had recently received a reprimand
Speaker 1: from Estruman for staying out all night and not coming
Speaker 1: back to the Vatican. Apparently, you know, for the support
Speaker 1: Swiss card to do that, you have to get permission,
Speaker 1: and didn't know with that permission, so it's kind of
Speaker 1: like being a wall so a letter of reprimand yeah,
Speaker 1: they I think it's one level. One level of rank,
Speaker 1: you're able to be out till midnight. The next level
Speaker 1: you're able to be up till one o'clock in the morning.
Speaker 1: I think it's how it. Basically, every the curfew is
Speaker 1: one am. Yeah, and then everybody has to be in. Yes,
Speaker 1: that makes sense, you're technically out of the country. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's true. And you are in the military. You really
Speaker 1: are still be kind of kind of suck to be
Speaker 1: in Rome and you know, have to be have a curfew. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's true. Yeah, and then he was twenty three probably
Speaker 1: apparently from everything I've heard, a high spirited lad. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'd never bet. I want to go. I was recently there.
Speaker 1: It's awesome. Yeah, I need a guy. I'd love to
Speaker 1: go to the Vatican. This podcast is really making it
Speaker 1: easy for me to travel all the time. O. Yeah,
Speaker 1: what's funding my trips to Roman? That would make so
Speaker 1: much money off this? Yeah. Oh, back to the Vatican.
Speaker 1: They s yeah, they after when they released their theory
Speaker 1: about what about the brain tumor and all that. They
Speaker 1: also really really used a letter because he wrote a
Speaker 1: letter right before he committed this act and handed it
Speaker 1: over to one of his ex one of his guard buddies,
Speaker 1: asking this guy to get it to his mother, and
Speaker 1: apparently that guy turned it over to the Vatican, and
Speaker 1: it was a final letter to his mother which hadn't
Speaker 1: been mailed. And then mother, by the way, says it's
Speaker 1: a forgery. Yeah, but there'll be more on the letter
Speaker 1: in a minute. But the statement said that were made
Speaker 1: behavioral changes, paranoia, drug use really conflict with what Torney's
Speaker 1: fellow guards had to say about him. He had been
Speaker 1: in there for three years, and he was he had
Speaker 1: been recently promoted. He was he had a responsible position.
Speaker 1: He was in charge of all the guards deployed in
Speaker 1: the Apostolic Palace, which is where the Pope was, as
Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier, So I mean that's you know, that's
Speaker 1: a responsible position, right, uh, and also monitor Saint Saint
Speaker 1: Ann's Gate, which is one of the main entry points
Speaker 1: in the Vatican. And I've got quotes from his fellow
Speaker 1: guards which I won't I won't repeat them all. But
Speaker 1: apparently they thought he was a great guy. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: I didn't hear and I didn't see anything him other
Speaker 1: Swiss guard that there was anything bad about the guy, yeah,
Speaker 1: Or that he was going around the bend. Yeah, nobody
Speaker 1: noticed anything like that. So after they had their services
Speaker 1: for both the instruments and Tornay, and then after that,
Speaker 1: Tornay's body was flown back to Switzerland for another funeral there,
Speaker 1: of course, but his mother, whose name is Muguette Bade
Speaker 1: stole the body. She arranged to have the body taken
Speaker 1: from a Swiss morgue. So she had she hired or
Speaker 1: or maybe you got actually I don't know she paid
Speaker 1: him or not. I love it. But professor of forensic
Speaker 1: medicine named Dr Thomas Krompecker did a second autopsy, and
Speaker 1: based on his conclusion, Tornay's mother hired two French lawyers.
Speaker 1: I won't bother naming them because I'll probably be pronounced
Speaker 1: their names and the press. The lawyers had a press
Speaker 1: comperence released a seventy page report that disputed the Vatican's
Speaker 1: version and the murder and the autopsy reports, and demanded
Speaker 1: a new investigation. So Here's what the autopsy found the
Speaker 1: second autopsy. First of all, Tornay Service pistol used nine
Speaker 1: millimeter bullets, but the exit wound in his skull measured
Speaker 1: seven millimeters. The mystery deepens. Next, they said that he
Speaker 1: had a fracture of the cranium, which was not on
Speaker 1: the bullet's trajectory. Yeah, and they said, Third, his lungs
Speaker 1: contained a large amount of blood and saliva, which could
Speaker 1: not have been caused by his suicide. And I'm not
Speaker 1: a medical expert, so I really couldn't tell you that,
Speaker 1: but they say it could have. Also, it could have
Speaker 1: been caused by internal bleeding. Dude blows on the head
Speaker 1: before he died. Maybe. Also, they found in the second
Speaker 1: autopsy no tumor on his brain. Of course I don't know.
Speaker 1: Maybe the Vatican guys removed the tumor. And I was
Speaker 1: about to say, if the Vatican has done its autopsy
Speaker 1: and they've been slicing through his brain, it is entirely
Speaker 1: possible that on the second autopsy, if it is something
Speaker 1: as small as we seem to believe it is, you
Speaker 1: wouldn't You might not see it. They might have cut
Speaker 1: through it, So then it's not obvious or removed it.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm not you know, I don't do
Speaker 1: that kind of work, But I'm just I'm trying to
Speaker 1: think of what it would be like for somebody to
Speaker 1: come in and have to do a second examination. I
Speaker 1: guess for me, the lack of tumor is the least
Speaker 1: startling thing there. You know. It's like, Okay, people lie
Speaker 1: about tumors or it was a legion, it wasn't a tumor,
Speaker 1: you know whatever. If they were cutting up his brain, sure, okay,
Speaker 1: maybe they cut off the tumor, fine. Whatever. This other
Speaker 1: stuff though, so like blood and saliva and lungs, a
Speaker 1: fracture in your skull, seven millimeter exit wounds. Yeah, some
Speaker 1: of that stuff suggests like violence, yeah, yeah, like the
Speaker 1: beating or somebody over the head. Yeah. Is there more stuff? Yeah.
Speaker 1: They also said his front teeth were broken off gone
Speaker 1: had been forced into his mouth. That's suspicious. Yeah. And
Speaker 1: then last of all, the final letter to his mother,
Speaker 1: according to his mother, is a forgery. Because well I'll
Speaker 1: get into that more a little bit later on, but
Speaker 1: apparently he just wasn't his style what it wasn't written
Speaker 1: to stuff. So anyway, I talked about the metal the
Speaker 1: Benamarenti Medal, which he was supposedly, yeah, supposedly it's a good,
Speaker 1: good metal, right, Yeah, yeah, it's an honored to get it. Well, no,
Speaker 1: I think that's the translation would be Benny okay, okay,
Speaker 1: all right, But shortly before the ceremony and this is
Speaker 1: like two days before, Yeah, he found out he wasn't
Speaker 1: going to get the metal was second time. Yeah, he
Speaker 1: wasn't even informed about it by anybody. He just saw
Speaker 1: a list of the recipients and his name wasn't on it.
Speaker 1: So was that was that? Oliways Esterman striking again? Well,
Speaker 1: I so he didn't get it the first year. He
Speaker 1: thought he was going to get it the year prior,
Speaker 1: but he was to his service time wasn't was she
Speaker 1: was short? He was, Yeah, he hadn't hit the exact
Speaker 1: three market. I think he missed it by like two months.
Speaker 1: So he knew he was going to get it the
Speaker 1: second time because he was a good dude. Yeah. And
Speaker 1: but yeah, I mean I know that there's stuff that
Speaker 1: you know that that Esterman really didn't like him because
Speaker 1: the disciplinary reasons and that he was I'm almost positive
Speaker 1: I remember reading something about Esterman being one of the
Speaker 1: key figures in the decision for him not to get it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: which makes sense. I mean, obviously he as a head
Speaker 1: of the Swiss Guard, he would have a lot of
Speaker 1: a lot of in that respect. Yeah, yeah, j yeah,
Speaker 1: what a jerk. But the some of some have said
Speaker 1: that the denial of the medal was a straw that
Speaker 1: broke the camel's back, and it was. It was a
Speaker 1: couple of days before the murder suicide death situation. That
Speaker 1: was a couple of days before. Yeah, I think the
Speaker 1: it was it was now as he found out the
Speaker 1: day of the day of the murder suicide, he found
Speaker 1: out he was just two days before, two days before.
Speaker 1: He had found out that day. Yeah, and he had
Speaker 1: already booked tickets for his family to come and everything. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he was ready to have I think he even booked
Speaker 1: some place to have dinner with everybody. Yeah, like he
Speaker 1: totally he totally expected this to happen. Yeah. It was
Speaker 1: a real, real poke in the eye with a sharp stick,
Speaker 1: let's face it. Yeah, so it sounds pretty awful. You know.
Speaker 1: I gotta say, you know, I feel bad for torn.
Speaker 1: You know, he seemed like a good guy. It's uh,
Speaker 1: I really just seemed like he was kind of a
Speaker 1: bad position. But anyway, so when he found that out,
Speaker 1: he went back to the barracks who wrote the letter
Speaker 1: to his mother and handed it over to a friend
Speaker 1: and then grabbed his gun and had a headed to
Speaker 1: Estman's apartment. And we know, we know what happened there.
Speaker 1: Actually we don't know. Yeah, you get by that. Tornay's
Speaker 1: mother again claims that the letter that he wrote is
Speaker 1: a forgery. For one thing, the date it was was
Speaker 1: four point oh five point nine eighth that which in
Speaker 1: you know, the Europeans they do they do day, month, year,
Speaker 1: whereas we do month a year. Just in case you
Speaker 1: don't know that, she said, he always spelled out the months,
Speaker 1: so he should have put he should have written May
Speaker 1: four or four May. Actually yeah. Um. He refers to her,
Speaker 1: his sister Melinda, by her name Melinda instead of the
Speaker 1: nickname which he always used for her, which was Dot.
Speaker 1: He calls the Pope the Pope in this letter, but
Speaker 1: he always used the term holy Father. And he also
Speaker 1: said when one of the last lines of the letter
Speaker 1: quote tell Melinda, Sarah and Papa that I love you
Speaker 1: and all that stuff, it was that's not a direct
Speaker 1: quote but he didn't mention his two stepbrothers, who also
Speaker 1: was very close to Dade. Was she able to produce
Speaker 1: old letters that backed up her claims of his diversions
Speaker 1: of writing style? Was that, do you know? You know,
Speaker 1: I don't know. That's a good question. I all I
Speaker 1: know is just some quotes from her, from her lawyers
Speaker 1: and from a few other people. I was, you know,
Speaker 1: I keep letters. I have a couple of friends that
Speaker 1: the way that, because I'm old bashioned, apparently the way
Speaker 1: we talk is we actually write letters to each other
Speaker 1: and I keep those. And I certainly would keep correspondence
Speaker 1: from a son or a significant other things like that.
Speaker 1: So it seems like it would have been a fairly
Speaker 1: simple thing for her to say, wait, but actually look, yeah,
Speaker 1: I have a feeling that that is probably in that
Speaker 1: seventy five page document that our lawyers put out. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'll bet you that's where that evidence is, and that's
Speaker 1: why we haven't seen it. It's really it's kind of
Speaker 1: frustrating and annoying that that that's nowhere on the internet.
Speaker 1: I mean, everything should be on the internet. I can't
Speaker 1: find I couldn't find that anywhere. Yeah, yeah, she should
Speaker 1: really what she really needs to do is and this
Speaker 1: is one of the things that makes me wonder just
Speaker 1: a little bit it about her story because she's got
Speaker 1: got this autopsy report, the evidence of the letters knowledge,
Speaker 1: she should be able to put together like a book
Speaker 1: and all that stuff and release all this to the public.
Speaker 1: But she's not doing that. She's got these lawyers out
Speaker 1: there making statements. How old is she though, I don't
Speaker 1: know she's I would guess at the time would have
Speaker 1: to be at least maybe mid to late fifties, and
Speaker 1: she's been on a number of documentaries and stuff like that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's the sort of time that you pull that stuff
Speaker 1: out if you have it. Yeah, I think so. Looguet
Speaker 1: wrote to the Pope, that's Pope John Paul the Second
Speaker 1: twice asking for another investigation, questioning the Vatican's version of
Speaker 1: his death. Tourney's death got no answer, although, unfairness, the
Speaker 1: Pope at this point in his life was pretty he
Speaker 1: was pretty old and sick. I think he had parkinstones
Speaker 1: also did, yeah, and so, and of course he never
Speaker 1: really recovered from being shot by that Turkish guy. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: he never Yeah, that really the number on it. It
Speaker 1: really did. Yeah, and so will do. Yeah, yeah, it's
Speaker 1: not like it's not like a TV. You know, it's
Speaker 1: a fleshy. I know, it's it's it's tough on it.
Speaker 1: She also didn't She also claimed that the Vatican said
Speaker 1: she couldn't come to the funeral in realme yeah yeah,
Speaker 1: and said that they tried to discourage her to come.
Speaker 1: They said that his body was his body was in
Speaker 1: really bad shape and his head had been torn off.
Speaker 1: This is what she says. I can't get any documentations.
Speaker 1: And and also they said that all the hotels in
Speaker 1: Rome were full. That's not true, but yeah, yeah, so
Speaker 1: that's what she says. Well, and you know, this is
Speaker 1: probably a good time to bring something up, which is
Speaker 1: everything except for that one official statement from the Vatican.
Speaker 1: He's from everybody outside, he said. She said the Vatican
Speaker 1: went on full lockdown on this. I mean they release
Speaker 1: their statements and not a word was said. Everybody in
Speaker 1: the Vatican was told, especially the Swiss Guard, you don't
Speaker 1: say a word about this. If you do your gun,
Speaker 1: you're out of here. Your job is over. But that's
Speaker 1: why the this John Flane when he wrote his book,
Speaker 1: he was only able to get X guards to talk
Speaker 1: to him. Yeah, so yeah, yeah, he would he would
Speaker 1: be he would get interviews with people under illusions of
Speaker 1: I think he was just he was saying he was
Speaker 1: going to write a book about the Swiss Guard itself,
Speaker 1: nothing about the deaths, and and every time he would
Speaker 1: start to turn the conversation to the set of murders,
Speaker 1: everybody just went full lockdown. They just shut him out. No,
Speaker 1: not talking about that. Okay, hey we're done. I gotta go,
Speaker 1: I gotta get I gotta get back by and people
Speaker 1: literally would run away. I mean, that's how emphatic they
Speaker 1: were of following their orders. Well, I mean, you do.
Speaker 1: Being at the Vatican is like being in the military
Speaker 1: Swiss Guard, notwithstanding, I think the entire organization it's so
Speaker 1: locked down. So nit yeah, I get together. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: think that they might have benefited from being a little
Speaker 1: more open, like maybe turning the body over to an
Speaker 1: Italian pathologist who who did the work and stuff. Have
Speaker 1: some forensic scientists come in and see the murder scene
Speaker 1: or whatever, I'm sorry, the crime scene to the crime
Speaker 1: scene and do it, you know, are participate in the
Speaker 1: autopsy and all that stuff, And maybe some of these
Speaker 1: questions would have been answered, but yeah, there's there's there's
Speaker 1: not a single photo that anybody has seen of the
Speaker 1: crime scene. There's all kinds of these reenactments. Yeah apparently. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's what I heard, is that the photos that just
Speaker 1: sort of disappeared along with a little bit of evidence.
Speaker 1: Well hindsight. Yeah, you try and downplay a thing that
Speaker 1: happened that's kind of tragic in your community, and it
Speaker 1: backfires and everybody says you're trying to hide something. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And also the Vaticans does have its own least force,
Speaker 1: but they don't deal with murders very often now, not
Speaker 1: at all. So I think the last time there was
Speaker 1: a murder at the Vatican was like three hundred years
Speaker 1: prior something short of the stories in Dan Brown's books.
Speaker 1: But unless you unless you buy the stories about Pope
Speaker 1: John Paul, the first you've heard about that, right, Yeah
Speaker 1: he was he was in office for just a matter
Speaker 1: of weeks, but dead. Yeah, that obviously kicked off. Who
Speaker 1: knows when, might cover that one one of these days,
Speaker 1: But that kicked off just myriad conspiracy theories. So other
Speaker 1: stuff happened, right, The mom claimed other things as well. Yeah, Yeah,
Speaker 1: besides that, they sent an Onwood to Switzerland to meet
Speaker 1: with her, and she said here and I quote this
Speaker 1: is again from John Filane's book It's a City of Secrets,
Speaker 1: um available in audible quote. He wanted to find out
Speaker 1: how much I knew and what I planned to do
Speaker 1: about it. He gave me a rosary, but he also
Speaker 1: threatened me in the name of his superiors, telling me
Speaker 1: I should stop asking about Tourney's death and think of
Speaker 1: my surviving children. He said that he was sure I
Speaker 1: wouldn't want anything bad to happen to them. That's a threat,
Speaker 1: isn't it. Unquote sounds like a threat. Sounds like a threat.
Speaker 1: But again, we don't have any documentation. This is just
Speaker 1: her talking, so right, well, I feel the Vatican officials,
Speaker 1: the envoy would be very careful to not have documentation
Speaker 1: of something like that, right, If you're going to say
Speaker 1: something like that, you're not going to be like, oh, also,
Speaker 1: the court reporter sitting right here, right, Yeah, Well, she's
Speaker 1: also a grieving mother, and I'm not discounting what she's saying,
Speaker 1: but her emotional state kind of has to be taken
Speaker 1: into consideration. Absolutely, And I think it's hard when you're
Speaker 1: grieving and you're sad. It's hard to keep respective. Well,
Speaker 1: I think you have to. You have to temper what
Speaker 1: people say they heard. You know, if somebody sits down
Speaker 1: and says, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry for your loss,
Speaker 1: and you've decided that they're the bad guy, it's going
Speaker 1: to sound really sarcastic and awful or something. You know,
Speaker 1: things like that always need to be taken into considerations.
Speaker 1: So the words of a grieving mother I think should
Speaker 1: often be taken with a grain of salt. But I
Speaker 1: do think she also has some good points. Yeah, there
Speaker 1: was really I don't think any real reason for the
Speaker 1: Vatican the sense somebody just threatened her because they were
Speaker 1: in control of the whole situation. There was nothing she
Speaker 1: could do to them, so she proposed no threat, so
Speaker 1: that it's really pointless to trying to threaten her. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So that's why I think that, like you say, she
Speaker 1: may be misinterpreted things said. I don't think that they
Speaker 1: actually sent somebody a switcherland just to I think, you know,
Speaker 1: I think that it's totally plausible that she she heard
Speaker 1: somebody sitting down and saying, you have other children, think
Speaker 1: about them, care for them as a threat. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: Catholics are into family. Still have you still have other children?
Speaker 1: You know? Hey, you know the Italian Catholics in particular,
Speaker 1: are they're in the family. If you lose somebody, you
Speaker 1: should grieve that, you should be sad about that, but
Speaker 1: also think about your family that still lives. Absolutely, they're
Speaker 1: important too. That's my experience with the Roman Catholics. And
Speaker 1: I do actually have experienced. Yeah, yeah, I got a
Speaker 1: whole Catholic background myself. But I'll talk about that some
Speaker 1: at the time. What some other things that she said
Speaker 1: that this is Mougette again. Tony's mother also said that
Speaker 1: a year before he died, Torney told her that he
Speaker 1: and two of the Swiss cards were investigating Opus Day,
Speaker 1: about Opus Day, these the sinister organizations, the shadowy sinisters.
Speaker 1: Not really, but I explain what that is because I
Speaker 1: really I had a hard time figuring this one out.
Speaker 1: Are you gonna or should we just tell him to
Speaker 1: google it? Yeah? Yeah, I can google it. I mean,
Speaker 1: my my understanding of Opus Day is that it's it's
Speaker 1: an organization. It's almost like a church in the sense,
Speaker 1: but it's not geographically centered on anything. It's not not
Speaker 1: in a town or anything like that, but there is
Speaker 1: there's a card in a little bishop and all that stuff.
Speaker 1: I guess they call it a one of the prelature. Um. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's that's the right word. I mean, yeah, basically, I
Speaker 1: think it's Gosh, it's a group that holds to a
Speaker 1: slightly different theological view of the teachings of the Bible
Speaker 1: or Christ or marry all of that. I mean, because
Speaker 1: I believe Opus Date there they're really kind of conservative
Speaker 1: and they think that some things that are done in
Speaker 1: the church are a little too liberal, and they're trying
Speaker 1: to control or correct that. That's that's what I've I've
Speaker 1: come to understand whether that's right or not, That's why
Speaker 1: I've understood it. According to Wikipedia, which I've pulled up
Speaker 1: on my phone, Opus Day is an institution of the
Speaker 1: Roman Catholic Church I am quoting sorry that teaches that
Speaker 1: everyone is called to holiness and that ordinary life is
Speaker 1: the path to sanctity. The majority of the membership are
Speaker 1: lay people with secular priests, under the governance of a
Speaker 1: bishop elected by specific members that are appointed by the
Speaker 1: Pope Um Opus Day. In case you didn't realize this,
Speaker 1: this is something that I know because I took Latin
Speaker 1: is Latin for the work of God, and the organization
Speaker 1: is often referred to by the members and supporters as
Speaker 1: the work the work. Okay, there's lots of other stuff
Speaker 1: going on there, but I think that's probably a pretty
Speaker 1: good yea quick overview. Yeah, so anyway, there, you know,
Speaker 1: up this stay there, there's a lot of you if
Speaker 1: you look on the web, there's a lot of conspiracy
Speaker 1: rainage stuff about this day that they're claiming they're much
Speaker 1: more sinister than I than they appear to be, And
Speaker 1: who knows, maybe they are really, but they don't appear
Speaker 1: to me to actually be a sinister organization. I think
Speaker 1: there's something to be said for a Roman Catholic tradition
Speaker 1: that employees lay people and secular people as they're kind
Speaker 1: of leadership. I don't know secular secular people, so I
Speaker 1: mean that's what Wikipeda said. It was it said that
Speaker 1: they were secular, and again, you know it's Wikipeda, so
Speaker 1: it could be wrong. But yeah, but if if within
Speaker 1: a tradition, if you're saying these non religious white right unquote,
Speaker 1: that's what secular means, non religious people are in places
Speaker 1: of power within a Roman Catholic tradition. That's weird. That
Speaker 1: doesn't make any sense at all. Wikipedia probably Yeah, yeah, sentimental,
Speaker 1: sentimental letter. I did also just check one of our
Speaker 1: expert emails, and you were right about the what was
Speaker 1: it prelature. It's a personal prelature is personal. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: what Opus Day is. Yeah, so you know, I mean,
Speaker 1: if yeah, people want to learn more about it, google it,
Speaker 1: because it really is. It's really dense. It's one of
Speaker 1: the things I know we reached out for some help with. Um.
Speaker 1: It's just it's really really complex, and I think that
Speaker 1: I think that white people call it sinisters because they're
Speaker 1: not open. Everybody wants everything to be transparent today and
Speaker 1: they are not transparent. Yeah that's hard. Yeah, but yeah,
Speaker 1: so you're naturally going to get to just like the Vatican.
Speaker 1: You're gonna get some dispire r theories because the Vatican
Speaker 1: is like just like that and it's not really that open. Yeah.
Speaker 1: But speaking of up his Opus Day, I am. I
Speaker 1: have another quote from City of Secrets, which is from
Speaker 1: an unnamed Vatican monseigneur, and the quote is this quote.
Speaker 1: There's one common thread running through this, and it's the
Speaker 1: Opus Day movement. The instruments were both close to it.
Speaker 1: Navarro valves as a member Navarrow remember he was a
Speaker 1: senior Vatican spokesman. They gave that statement three hours after
Speaker 1: back to the quote, and he was very fast and
Speaker 1: getting to the scene of the crime when he was alerted.
Speaker 1: And the Holy Father's Shadowez, so it's somebody's name. I
Speaker 1: think it's yeah, yeah, And the Holy Father's Shadows is
Speaker 1: said to be supportive of Open's Day. Given the movements
Speaker 1: taste for secrecy, all the people are going to follow
Speaker 1: the principle that the less said, the better. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't know. That's I don't know. That doesn't really mean much,
Speaker 1: but I just had to throw that in. So Opus
Speaker 1: Day figures a lot in the theories around this thing.
Speaker 1: There have been a lot of that. And again, I
Speaker 1: know we just said this before, but it's it's the
Speaker 1: fact that that nobody's talking. Yeah, that's and that's my
Speaker 1: hardest thing before we get into the theory section. That's
Speaker 1: the one thing that I have with this story that's
Speaker 1: so top is so much of what we have it's hearsay.
Speaker 1: So it's it's really difficult to build a firm case
Speaker 1: on hearsay. I know, I know that's so, that's it.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's very little solid about this whole thing,
Speaker 1: and it's a fun little mystery. Oh absolutely, it's intriguing
Speaker 1: it to be. I mean I when I got the
Speaker 1: book for cram Andy sakes, Yeah, we might have to
Speaker 1: go to the Vatican and really solve this one. Well.
Speaker 1: For as an interesting aside, apparently the the Opus Day
Speaker 1: faction of Roman Catholicism, that's what in the Dan Brown
Speaker 1: novel is the guy who's like whipping himself the soft mall. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's that's apparently a big part of the controversy surrounding
Speaker 1: open you know, the the Dan Brown stuff does like
Speaker 1: feed into that. And I think that probably I didn't
Speaker 1: read the book, but City of Secrets, I bet yeah,
Speaker 1: a little bit feeds into that. Any kind of Opus
Speaker 1: Day conspiracy theory, they're going to talk about stuff like that, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and that's kind of stuff weird people out. Although I
Speaker 1: don't think that many people actually flagelights themselves up to day,
Speaker 1: I think I think they have more typically. The more
Speaker 1: typically they do stuff like fasting and things like it's sacrifice,
Speaker 1: it's fasting, it's kneeling and praying for extended periods of time.
Speaker 1: It's laying in on the floor on a hard floor
Speaker 1: with your arms out and your legs straight in the
Speaker 1: position of Christ to make the cross with your bond,
Speaker 1: which I'm sure it's very uncomfortable after a while. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: after ten minutes, it's probably uncomfortable do. But it's that
Speaker 1: self sacrifice, the flagellation. I that's extreme. I know that.
Speaker 1: I in the book there was stuff about I cannot
Speaker 1: remember what this device is called, but there is. It's
Speaker 1: kind of what you know the dog callers that have
Speaker 1: the pinchers for like Doberman's or Rottweiler's where you pull
Speaker 1: on it and pinches their neck in any kind of
Speaker 1: dog that has a thick neck. Yes, yeah, well not
Speaker 1: not like a choke change. Okay, Well, there's a device
Speaker 1: like that that has little barbed teeth that supposedly as
Speaker 1: a form of this, will be worn on the upper calf,
Speaker 1: just just below the knees, so your calf muscle holds
Speaker 1: it in place, and all those little barbed teeth are
Speaker 1: on the inside, essentially sawing at your leg as you're
Speaker 1: walking around all day. And that, according to what I've read,
Speaker 1: is also a form of this, whether that's true or not.
Speaker 1: And yeah, I don't know if that actually happens or
Speaker 1: if this is just like something that was a medieval
Speaker 1: thing that people say is still happening. But that's another
Speaker 1: thing I saw. Call have you go on the internet.
Speaker 1: There's people are in all kinds of weird stuff in
Speaker 1: and out of open stay. But my understanding though is
Speaker 1: that they mostly mostly just fascinating. Mostly it's mostly mostly
Speaker 1: pretty mundane. Yeah, pretty mundane. So that doesn't mean that
Speaker 1: there aren't some radicals, but there are some radicals and
Speaker 1: literally everything always people to take a little too far. Okay,
Speaker 1: you guys wanted to do some theories, let's do it.
Speaker 1: Let's do some theories. Okay. Number one, what happened pretty
Speaker 1: much went down, like the Vatican said, boring. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: not fun. But apparently there was tension between the Germans
Speaker 1: and the French and the Swiss Guard. There was persecution
Speaker 1: of Tournay by Estramonry Piers. Tornado protested to est his
Speaker 1: superiors and to the chaplain and everybody else, and they
Speaker 1: did nothing. And so it's a theory that his anger
Speaker 1: and frustration just built and built and built, and then
Speaker 1: one of what the metal was was with with hell
Speaker 1: from him without warning. And that's like you say, after
Speaker 1: he had done so much to inviting his family down
Speaker 1: and everything like that. I mean, yeah, he was ready. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he was ready for it. And it must have been
Speaker 1: a real big blow. I know that. Do you know?
Speaker 1: It's the chaplain that the Swiss Guard are supposed to
Speaker 1: talk to it the Swiss Guards chaplain. I cannot remember
Speaker 1: his name. He forgot his name too. I know it's
Speaker 1: Jell j e h l. I think that's how you
Speaker 1: pronounce it in in a interview with the chaplain, Like
Speaker 1: his name is spelled j e h l E. I
Speaker 1: don't know how to pronounce. We'll say it's Gell, but Jelly,
Speaker 1: I don't know. But the point is he had made
Speaker 1: the statement that Tornay should have been informed days prior,
Speaker 1: alone in a room with a supervisor and himself told hey,
Speaker 1: you're not going to get the metal and here's why
Speaker 1: probably and here's why. And at that point he could
Speaker 1: have you know, he could have broken in tears, he
Speaker 1: could have screamed and yelled at everybody, but it would
Speaker 1: have been in a controlled environment. Yeah, yeah, and yeah,
Speaker 1: and I heard he did actually break down in tears
Speaker 1: after he found out he wasn't gonna get the medal.
Speaker 1: That's that's what is said. Yeah, yeah, so a major
Speaker 1: crushing blow to him, and so that's when he went
Speaker 1: and wrote that letter. Supposedly he did try to He
Speaker 1: said that they tried to contact the chaplain and talk
Speaker 1: to him about it, and but the chaplain wouldn't talk
Speaker 1: to him. The chaplain denies that though, of course. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the chaplain says he came to him and then he
Speaker 1: didn't want to talk. It's like, well, why did he
Speaker 1: come to you? I don't know. But it's also been
Speaker 1: brought out that the chaplain had dinner plans at night
Speaker 1: and so he was in a bit of a hurry
Speaker 1: and kind of brushed him off and said come back
Speaker 1: to me later. Yeah, so there's an issue. So he's
Speaker 1: probably got a few regrets there, quite likely. So that's
Speaker 1: theory number one. Let's talk about theory number two. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this is the one that's been put out there. This
Speaker 1: is one of those vague little theories. Esterman knew too
Speaker 1: much about the secret intrigues in the Vatican, because, after all,
Speaker 1: he was a pope's bodyguard. He spent a lot of
Speaker 1: time around the Pope, wasn't he Well, yeah, he wasn't
Speaker 1: quite as close to the Pope though, I mean obviously
Speaker 1: he would have been. He might have you know. Oh,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm getting them mixed up. Okay, Esterman was
Speaker 1: that was the bodyguard. Yeah, souther Vatican had him killed
Speaker 1: and Tornado was just a patsy. So here's the weird
Speaker 1: thing about that. When the Vatican put out all their
Speaker 1: statements about Esterman, one of the things that they say
Speaker 1: is he was there when the Pope was shot, which
Speaker 1: he was. He was a Swiss guard protecting the pope
Speaker 1: on but they say that he threw himself in front
Speaker 1: of the Pope to take bullets and defend the Pope
Speaker 1: with his life. I didn't do a very good job
Speaker 1: of it, did he. No, it's not true. It's not true.
Speaker 1: It's absolutely not true. Because there's photographs of the people
Speaker 1: who were in the car with the Pope immediately after
Speaker 1: he was shot, and you know who's not there. So
Speaker 1: that's a photograph of the shooting. Actually an estument is
Speaker 1: hiding behind them. No, but but no, he's not there.
Speaker 1: He was somewhere off, you know, following the car. So
Speaker 1: it's it's I don't know what he would have known
Speaker 1: and why they would have turned around, and some praises
Speaker 1: about him that weren't actually true if they had so
Speaker 1: much reason to kill him. Well, I think there there's
Speaker 1: lots of things you can learn in the spy trade,
Speaker 1: the tenure of being someone's bodyguard. I don't House of
Speaker 1: Cards a lot do you guys watch House of Cards?
Speaker 1: But one of the characters in House of Cards is
Speaker 1: this guy who's like kind of worked his way up
Speaker 1: a little bit to be Underwood's the main character's bodyguard,
Speaker 1: and he knows a lot of stuff about Underwood that
Speaker 1: he could easily be killed for. You know, I think
Speaker 1: that that sort of thing does happen sometimes, that you
Speaker 1: have access to the personal and professional life of somebody
Speaker 1: being their bodyguard, and if there's something maybe not totally
Speaker 1: right going on, if that person is having a real
Speaker 1: human experience, which happens a lot, you would know about
Speaker 1: it because you're there protecting them through that. And if you,
Speaker 1: I don't know, for whatever reason, decided you were going
Speaker 1: to go public or somebody decided you knew too much,
Speaker 1: that would be a reason. But that that's completely contrary
Speaker 1: to Estruman's position. He was moving up the ranks. He
Speaker 1: had been promoted, Yes, his promotion, well, his promotion had
Speaker 1: been held for weeks or months, nine months, it was
Speaker 1: nine months the promotion. And how recently had he been
Speaker 1: promoted actually that day that he was He might not
Speaker 1: that I necessarily believe this, but to play Devil's advocate
Speaker 1: for a second, he was promoted because he kept saying, listen,
Speaker 1: I have this information and I'm going public with it
Speaker 1: if you guys did not promote me within this amount
Speaker 1: of time. And finally they said, all right, fine, you
Speaker 1: have the promotion, and then shot him because they knew
Speaker 1: he'd continue to use that as blackmail. Yeah, he'd continue
Speaker 1: to use it. He would eventually go public. They didn't
Speaker 1: want to continue to rank him up. They were doing
Speaker 1: that for a long time. He knew something, so they
Speaker 1: shot him and it just happened that Tornado was a
Speaker 1: great patsy for whatever reason. Yeah, I can see the
Speaker 1: lodging in that. I don't I don't believe that it
Speaker 1: was an assassination gone wrong. It was something you know,
Speaker 1: there's there's all there are so many things, But I
Speaker 1: think that it's it's not fair to right off the
Speaker 1: fact that as someone's bodyguard, he could have known something,
Speaker 1: and he could have been trying to leverage that into
Speaker 1: a higher rank. It could have. But the thing that
Speaker 1: the thing about it is is that if the Church
Speaker 1: routinely has people killed, if that's a regular, regular thing,
Speaker 1: if they're basically just like the mafia, but then, um,
Speaker 1: I would think that he would know better, even if
Speaker 1: he did have some good blackmail goods, I would think
Speaker 1: he'd know better than to try something like that. Well,
Speaker 1: I I think that that theory doesn't hinge on the
Speaker 1: Vatican routinely having people killed and again just every now,
Speaker 1: and I mean you would kind of assume that most
Speaker 1: people would just say, well, you know, the Pope is
Speaker 1: my chosen leader from God. I'll do whatever it takes
Speaker 1: to protect him. Their loyalty is stronger. Most people wouldn't
Speaker 1: come forward with things, or most people don't know things
Speaker 1: that really can incriminate. I don't know. I mean, well,
Speaker 1: people have made all sorts of all sorts of lurid
Speaker 1: claims against the Pope Francis for example, Oh yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 1: they participated in killings in South America and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: I mean, hasn't really gone anywhere hasn't, and I'm sure
Speaker 1: he hasn't. By the way, an aside to all of
Speaker 1: our Catholic listeners, if you're offended by any of this,
Speaker 1: I really don't think the Vatican has people killed at all. Okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't. I really don't. This is but I'm the screwy.
Speaker 1: This screwy often the radar bit. Yeah, I guess I should.
Speaker 1: I should also say that I I agree. I'm just
Speaker 1: you know, playing that part of trying to say we
Speaker 1: should cover all the bases. And I can see where
Speaker 1: people have a fairly legitimate claim that this could have happened.
Speaker 1: Do I think that's what ictually happened. Absolutely not. Yeah, Okay, Well,
Speaker 1: let's let's move on to our next series number three.
Speaker 1: Uh Esterman, the head of the Swiss Guard, was caught
Speaker 1: up in a struggle between Opus Day and Sonic factions
Speaker 1: in the Vatican. Both of us were trying to get
Speaker 1: control of the Swiss Guard. Was just a patsy. Okay again,
Speaker 1: I actually cut and pasted that in all the theories,
Speaker 1: but really I did. The plan was made by an
Speaker 1: anonymous group of quote the Vatican clergy and laity who
Speaker 1: called themselves the quote the Disciples of Truth they had
Speaker 1: they published a book called Blood Lies in the Vatican,
Speaker 1: which I could not find anywhere. Yeah, I desperately hunted
Speaker 1: for that book because I found the first one. I
Speaker 1: was like, I gotta get the completely opposing version. I
Speaker 1: don't know if they even published that in English, it
Speaker 1: was originally publishing the Yeah, I can't. I can't find it.
Speaker 1: You know, it's it's kind of a hard one to
Speaker 1: pick up. Yeah, Yeah, but they they claimed that Tornay
Speaker 1: was taken to a seller and murdered while hitman were
Speaker 1: wasting the instruments, and then and then the Tornado's body
Speaker 1: was taken to the apartment and left there or with
Speaker 1: his gun underneath. So it appeared that there was a
Speaker 1: murder suicide. So these guys, these Disciples of claim to
Speaker 1: have they appear to have detailed knowledge of the investigation
Speaker 1: of the load. Of course, they could just be making
Speaker 1: stuff up. They claimed that there were four used glasses
Speaker 1: at the crime scene that subsequently disappeared and nobody's seen him. Sense,
Speaker 1: along with the pictures taken by the first official photographer
Speaker 1: to arrive in the scene, which we've already talked about.
Speaker 1: The pictures all disappeared, which they may have been. I
Speaker 1: don't think they've permanently disappeared. They're just kind of lost
Speaker 1: somewhere in somewhere. And the Vatican archives, I imagine, are enormous.
Speaker 1: They're absolutely huge. Have you Have you ever heard about
Speaker 1: the fact that the Vatican will let you find just
Speaker 1: about whatever you want in their archives, but good luck
Speaker 1: finding I know, you have to know exactly what you're
Speaker 1: after and exactly where it should be. They don't let
Speaker 1: you roam the staff. Of course, there's actually something I
Speaker 1: have firsthand we're all secondhand knowledge of because my mom,
Speaker 1: her father was born in Italy and of a Roman
Speaker 1: Catholic family, and so they have records of all of
Speaker 1: those birth things. I don't know why they just do anyways,
Speaker 1: So she was pursuing her Italian citizenship and one of
Speaker 1: the things that they said that she had to do
Speaker 1: was get proof from the Vatican. And so she had
Speaker 1: to submit her quest and say, I think it's this
Speaker 1: these dates, this is when you know it was written
Speaker 1: down in the Bible as this date. We we don't
Speaker 1: actually know exactly when it was. Between this and the
Speaker 1: state and the Vatican came back and was like that's
Speaker 1: not specific enough. Now you need to know the date
Speaker 1: author system you all. Yeah, these these people, the Disciples
Speaker 1: of Truth, also claimed that Colonel Esterman his wife his wife,
Speaker 1: by the way, I worked at the Venezuelan Embassy to
Speaker 1: the Holy See. Yeah. That they claim that they were
Speaker 1: actively engaged in secret international financial deals for the benefit
Speaker 1: of Opus Day. This is what they claims. They also
Speaker 1: claim that no one heard the shots, that that Nune
Speaker 1: did appear to hear something. The Estermans lived, they were
Speaker 1: like apartments, right. Yeah, so there's pretty much no way
Speaker 1: in my book, pretty much no way that nobody heard that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: none reported hearing a loud noise, which a gun shot
Speaker 1: would be. It's not five loud noises. She was that
Speaker 1: kind of elderly. She wasn't an elderly lady. Your hearing
Speaker 1: may not have been the best, but she didn't say
Speaker 1: she heard five things at row. She just heard a noise, yeah,
Speaker 1: and that's when she went to go check, because it
Speaker 1: was unusual for those neighbors to have make a bunch
Speaker 1: of noise. Yeah, very quiet. So who knows, or maybe
Speaker 1: they use silence sers. The only did their did their
Speaker 1: little assassination thing. Can we talk about that a little bit. Well, no,
Speaker 1: just just some of the stuff that that I know
Speaker 1: you talked about some of this earlier when we were
Speaker 1: looking at the some of the autopsy stuff and these
Speaker 1: things from his mom, and I know you and I
Speaker 1: talked about this before. I didn't what's going on? Okay?
Speaker 1: So first off, Cedric when he shot himself, he kneeled down,
Speaker 1: so he was on his knees, and it appears from
Speaker 1: the descriptions I've got that he put his head forward
Speaker 1: as if he was in prayer and he shot himself
Speaker 1: through the mouth. To do that, that's like, okay, okay,
Speaker 1: So you can't, you know, think about you have your
Speaker 1: your hand out with a gun in it, you put
Speaker 1: your thumb up and your your point your finger forward.
Speaker 1: You can't then pull that up because that's very difficult
Speaker 1: to pull the trigger. It's really tough. So it won't
Speaker 1: go through the top of your skull. It's gonna go
Speaker 1: out the back of your neck or your head when
Speaker 1: your head has bent forward and you're into your chest.
Speaker 1: And a lot of the reports like and there was
Speaker 1: this funny shaped hole or small hole in his skull.
Speaker 1: The things that I've read the bullet didn't go through
Speaker 1: his skull. The bullet went out the back of his neck.
Speaker 1: It went through his spin, out the back of his mouth,
Speaker 1: through his spine, and into the ceiling where it hits
Speaker 1: the ceiling, broke stuff loose, and then bounced around. So,
Speaker 1: but that's seven millimeter gun right now, do you really know?
Speaker 1: I'm glad you don't, because it's really in your fingers
Speaker 1: because the finger right like if you just do the
Speaker 1: like bang bang finger, like the heel of your hand
Speaker 1: is pointing away from you, like exactly, but so like
Speaker 1: I have a trigger right here. Yeah, the heel of
Speaker 1: your hand is pointing away. That's the only way that
Speaker 1: it's physical. But that also means that the gun is
Speaker 1: pointing at the back of your neck. You can't you
Speaker 1: can't turn it over and have the thumbs because the
Speaker 1: pistol grip would be in your chest. It's like it's
Speaker 1: still it's it's really implausible that the way that it's
Speaker 1: described that the slide broke his teeth. I've seen that
Speaker 1: listed in other places that at that point, right, that's
Speaker 1: when you got it. You mean the gun being forced
Speaker 1: into his mouth, wellpped it back and then pulled the triggers,
Speaker 1: pulled the trigger, the slide ran. I've seen reports to
Speaker 1: say whether when the action hit and the slide of
Speaker 1: the gun moved to eject the bullet, that it was
Speaker 1: that motion that broke his teeth. That's what I was thinking.
Speaker 1: But in order to have the gun in his mouth,
Speaker 1: he would have to have essentially upside down. Well, he
Speaker 1: said his front teeth were broken. I don't know if
Speaker 1: they meant his top front teeth or his bottom front teeth.
Speaker 1: I don't see how you can fire off again in
Speaker 1: your mouth. And that's because you guys have both fired guns, right, yes, yes,
Speaker 1: some automatic guns. The slide racks back so quickly, and
Speaker 1: to have a piece of steel, it racks back so
Speaker 1: quickly you can't even see it. Yeah, yeah, it's that fast.
Speaker 1: And so the front, the front side is going to
Speaker 1: catch your teeth and bust them off. If okay, if
Speaker 1: I am putting a gun in your mouth, you're absolutely right.
Speaker 1: But to put a gun in your own mouth, you
Speaker 1: have to have the gun ups right now. We don't
Speaker 1: have to, ye, if he's in the kneeling, head forward position,
Speaker 1: he does. No, you don't, am I conceptualizing this wrong.
Speaker 1: I feel like Joe, you can turn it around. I
Speaker 1: can do it either way. I think most likely what
Speaker 1: you're going to do with the gun will be upside
Speaker 1: down in your mouth. But it's possible to nail your
Speaker 1: head down the butt like right here in your chests.
Speaker 1: It's possible. But a guy who uses a gun all
Speaker 1: the time isn't gonna pulp the trigger with his thumb.
Speaker 1: But my point is we're way off of where that are. Initially,
Speaker 1: I didn't want to mention that the broken teeth though,
Speaker 1: and that and that is the gun's front side totally
Speaker 1: could have pulled out. It could have not, it could
Speaker 1: have not got his bottom teeth, or it could have
Speaker 1: been the recoil popped out his top front teeth. Yeah,
Speaker 1: either way. But what I'm getting at is that he
Speaker 1: didn't shoot himself through the top of the skull. Yeah. No.
Speaker 1: And that's why the accudental wound was not was seven
Speaker 1: millimeters versus nine, because it were not the back of
Speaker 1: his neck, which is all muscle in skin, and under pressure,
Speaker 1: those things are going to expand to the nine millimeter
Speaker 1: and then they're gonna because they're elastic, exactly into position.
Speaker 1: That's so that's the one thing I want to talk
Speaker 1: about when the the autopsy reports, and it couldn't have
Speaker 1: been this, and someone else had to do it. It
Speaker 1: was a different caliber gun. I don't know. I guess
Speaker 1: I generally assumed that I don't know. I would have
Speaker 1: assumed this may be a false assumption, but I would
Speaker 1: assume that the corners that were hired later would have
Speaker 1: been made aware of his position and would have factored
Speaker 1: that in. They weren't made aware of any position, though
Speaker 1: they weren't given any details. He kneeled, He kneeled down.
Speaker 1: Part that speculation on the part of the Vatican that
Speaker 1: we have all then jumped on board with and we're
Speaker 1: running with right now, right so so exactly so it
Speaker 1: could have been a seven millimeter exit wound, that what
Speaker 1: came from a seven millionaire bullet because he wasn't knelt down, right,
Speaker 1: it's possible. The other thing is that there's the blood
Speaker 1: in the mucus in his lungs. Okay, if you shoot
Speaker 1: yourself through the neck, you don't die immediately, So it's
Speaker 1: entirely possible that he lay there alive for I don't know,
Speaker 1: ten minutes bleeding, which would have gone entirely possible. Do
Speaker 1: you go back to the people who try to commit suicide,
Speaker 1: the like brain reaction of O crop, I don't want
Speaker 1: to do this. The fact that you would like lay
Speaker 1: there seems unlikely. You would probably crawl try to like
Speaker 1: get to something. Well, he probably exact probably not able
Speaker 1: to do anything. But then he wouldn't have been able
Speaker 1: to swallow. It would have been drooling out. It would
Speaker 1: have run down his throat though depending on exactly how Yeah,
Speaker 1: it could have just been running down his throat, And
Speaker 1: I don't know from first aid is that, like you
Speaker 1: have to put people in really specific positions for recovery.
Speaker 1: To open up the esophagus and to open all of
Speaker 1: the lung and whatever track whatever, you have to put
Speaker 1: people in really specific positions. So, yes, it is possible
Speaker 1: that he fell into, luckily exactly the right position so
Speaker 1: that that all went down into his lungs. But it's
Speaker 1: also possible that that didn't happen and something else happened.
Speaker 1: But yeah, no, I think that that's a it's a
Speaker 1: good thing to bring up, yes, because people get on
Speaker 1: the drum and they start beating the drum. It's the
Speaker 1: conspiracy he was killed earlier. That's why I want to
Speaker 1: bring these things and that went way farther. And I
Speaker 1: don't think we've ever had this much hand evening in
Speaker 1: the in the studio before an Italian story. I know,
Speaker 1: we're all sticking our fingers in our before we wrap
Speaker 1: up theory number three after that little link and run
Speaker 1: to the weeds there um and then again we're talking
Speaker 1: about the whole struggle between Opus Day and the Masonic factor. Masons.
Speaker 1: The Masons, well, excuse me. That's why I don't believe
Speaker 1: this one at all, Because there's Mason's in the Vatican. No, no,
Speaker 1: I mean yeah, I mean it's it's actually you can
Speaker 1: be excommunicated if you're for being a member of the Masons,
Speaker 1: of the Freemason's if you're a Catholic. I mean, the
Speaker 1: idea that there's Masonic factions in the Vatican, it's just ludicrous.
Speaker 1: They're Christian. Well, I don't think they're Catholic. They're anti
Speaker 1: Catholic and in their original in their original form. And
Speaker 1: I think that you know, your average Mason today, I
Speaker 1: don't know how many are left act sort of yeah.
Speaker 1: I think they're they've become more secularized and and all
Speaker 1: that stuff. They're not as anti cat like the original
Speaker 1: Mason's way back in the day, we used to be
Speaker 1: anti Catholic and they were actually committed to the destruction
Speaker 1: of the Catholic Church. And so so it's actually really
Speaker 1: against the rules if you're a Catholic to be a Mason,
Speaker 1: And it really doesn't make any sense either. It's completely
Speaker 1: contrary to the Catholic doctrine because the Mason's believed that
Speaker 1: basically doesn't really matter what religion you are as long
Speaker 1: as you as long as you behave well, then that's
Speaker 1: all that matters. Would this would this be equivalent to
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to put this in a kind of
Speaker 1: a different light or a different analogy. Would this be
Speaker 1: the same as saying, somebody who is really into Communism
Speaker 1: is running for office in our country as a as
Speaker 1: a running and say a Democrat. Would that be the
Speaker 1: same thing where they're there their personal views according to
Speaker 1: what we know, would be so a hunted eight de
Speaker 1: grieve from what they're moving towards. Like I'm trying to
Speaker 1: figure out exactly how this works, I think it would
Speaker 1: be more like I don't I don't think that the
Speaker 1: Communists and the Democrats are completely incongruous, but it being
Speaker 1: more like a communist running as a Republican. What they
Speaker 1: say is that Masonry runs parallel to Catholicism, right, and
Speaker 1: that they they will never intersect. They will never yeah,
Speaker 1: pretty much, because I think that the belief of masonry,
Speaker 1: and I'm sure we'll do an episode on this at
Speaker 1: some point, but the belief of masonry or freemasonry or
Speaker 1: whatever is that one can be pleasing to God or
Speaker 1: whatever you may believe in any spiritual tradition. Essentially, it
Speaker 1: is not required that you are a Christian, that you
Speaker 1: believe in Christ, that you're a Catholic, that you follow
Speaker 1: these rules to be pleasing to God. And that is
Speaker 1: superno okay with Catholic now in most churches to that way. Really,
Speaker 1: what the Catholic Church especially is this is the one
Speaker 1: true face, you know, and so it's a total contradiction
Speaker 1: in terms to be a Catholic in a Mason. Okay, see, yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't get but we've had this conversation before, Like
Speaker 1: I just never get religion. I think you just I
Speaker 1: think that you don't not get it. I think you
Speaker 1: just zone out. It's just white noise. I don't know,
Speaker 1: like I can never get the theology and therefore follow
Speaker 1: walls and trains of thought. Let's let's move forward. So
Speaker 1: I know you've got more, so that's why just a
Speaker 1: one or two more. But yeah, anyway, so Masonics, Masonic
Speaker 1: factions versus Okay, next series number four. Asterman was a
Speaker 1: spy for East German intelligence in the nineteen eighties the
Speaker 1: Famus stash. The Vatican found out and had him killed.
Speaker 1: Tornado was just a Patsy coffee. Yeah. I think it's
Speaker 1: like Vergin on plagiarism. At this point, you have plagiarizing myself. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this is uh, this is actually from a called the
Speaker 1: secret Ation of the Vatican by a journalist name Victor.
Speaker 1: Victor Guitard we taught. Yeah, I'm soon trying to pronounce
Speaker 1: these damn names. People get names like John American names. Yeah, American. Anyway,
Speaker 1: thanks for you know, alienating Oliver overseas list your YouTube.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry we can't pronounce anything like Lester. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so this is this is something I was not able
Speaker 1: to actually find any real I couldn't really validate this one. Uh. Supposedly,
Speaker 1: the former directors of Stacy, Marcus Wolfe, said that something
Speaker 1: that he had been the estimate, had been a spy
Speaker 1: for them since nineteen seventy nine. But I can't find
Speaker 1: any actual documentation. Were you guys able to find any,
Speaker 1: did you? Okay? She was pointing to a book. I'm
Speaker 1: pointing back to the same book because I love my
Speaker 1: local library and that's where I got this book. Uh. Yeah, No.
Speaker 1: So the humber that the Stasi had a mole in
Speaker 1: the Vatican to have had they would have loved to
Speaker 1: have had quite likely. But and I don't I didn't
Speaker 1: think to bookmark the page that talks about this, so
Speaker 1: I can't give you the code name of that agent.
Speaker 1: But they but everybody said, well that agent was in
Speaker 1: the Vatican, except that agent wasn't in the Vatican. And
Speaker 1: the group that that this so called mole was as
Speaker 1: filiated with, they looked at internal issues in East Germany.
Speaker 1: They I believe it was East Germany. They couldn't look
Speaker 1: at places like the Vatican because they weren't allowed to
Speaker 1: look at those places. So that one, really, I think,
Speaker 1: is one has just been spun up and spun up
Speaker 1: and spun up, maybe by the author of said book
Speaker 1: that you have mentioned there. I don't know, but everything
Speaker 1: that I've I've seen, especially in most of it that
Speaker 1: seemed concrete came from uh flane, but it seems yeah, probably, Yeah.
Speaker 1: There's there's even a sub like a like a little
Speaker 1: branch off of this one, which is not that he
Speaker 1: was not just a spy, but he also participated actually
Speaker 1: in the assassination attempt at nineteen one of John Paul
Speaker 1: the second, which was run by essentially, I mean, there
Speaker 1: were a lot of fingers in that particular pie, but
Speaker 1: essentially it was mostly run by Bulgarian intelligence from what
Speaker 1: I've heard, and so, yeah, and so here if he
Speaker 1: was an agent of the Stace, and of course these
Speaker 1: guys were all these guys are all cooperating, then they
Speaker 1: could have very well gotten information about Jean Paul's movements
Speaker 1: or maybe gotten him to just like, you know, like
Speaker 1: step aside for a moment or two, a little bit,
Speaker 1: and you know, but there's again, I find no no
Speaker 1: credible evidence for this at all. You know the worst
Speaker 1: part about the the assassination attempt on the pope in
Speaker 1: eight one, Yeah, do you know the Swiss guard we're
Speaker 1: supposed to do when they were following the car, watch
Speaker 1: the pope, watch the Yeah, they didn't look at the crowd,
Speaker 1: they didn't look for danger. They didn't they weren't looking around.
Speaker 1: Their job was to be there and stare at the
Speaker 1: Pope the whole time. Maybe you think that maybe one
Speaker 1: guy could be assigned to stare at the pope the
Speaker 1: rest of them. There's crowds of people staring at the pub.
Speaker 1: Come on, let's up stair at the pole by him
Speaker 1: a popemobile. Actually, well, yeah, obviously we know that eventually happened. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's got a cool pubmobill. Yeah that he's no longer
Speaker 1: in use. Just said I thought the popmobill was awesome.
Speaker 1: I'd drive it everywhere. I would love to have a
Speaker 1: pop I would drive it. Joe would be standing up
Speaker 1: in the little box everybody where. I'm the Swiss Guard apparently. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: you walked next to the car. Great. Yeah, any other theories,
Speaker 1: promobile looks like it's hot. Any other thing. I've got
Speaker 1: only one more theory, only one more theory, and its
Speaker 1: last theory number five. Five. Yeah, number five. It was
Speaker 1: a love triangle, I know, I know, with him and sorry,
Speaker 1: with Tornay and Easterman and Esterman. Yeah, apparently, maybe things
Speaker 1: weren't always so bad between those two. There's there's a
Speaker 1: rumor out there that Tornay was bisexual, and there were
Speaker 1: also rumors that Esterman was also bisexual, and they had
Speaker 1: you know, I've I've heard anywhere from a two years
Speaker 1: year love affair to just a little fling. But that
Speaker 1: apparently Esterman sort of threw Tornay over for another guy
Speaker 1: and or a lady or his wife. And actually, I
Speaker 1: hate to be putting theories like this out. These guys
Speaker 1: are dead, you know, they can't speak for themselves or
Speaker 1: anything like that, but they but they were also Catholic.
Speaker 1: I mean so that you know, the church by and
Speaker 1: large is particularly at this time. These days it's a
Speaker 1: little more accepting, but at this time, to be gay
Speaker 1: and a Catholic was just like one of the largest sins. Actually, no,
Speaker 1: it's okay to be again a Catholic. You just no, no,
Speaker 1: even then it was okay, can't act on it, you
Speaker 1: just can't act. Okay to be gay actively, you know whatever,
Speaker 1: to actual to actually act on your impulses. That was
Speaker 1: the sin. And if you if you're part of the
Speaker 1: Swiss Guard, right, you're part of the elite of the
Speaker 1: Catholic Church. It's a huge scandal, You wouldn't necessarily this
Speaker 1: might this you know, if this actually were true, then
Speaker 1: you would think that the sooner or later that they
Speaker 1: would have found out about it in the Vatican, and
Speaker 1: that might account for a little bit of the lack
Speaker 1: of transparency. They don't want they don't want to tell
Speaker 1: the whole story. You know. I've read all these accounts
Speaker 1: as well, and I'm going to take the same approach
Speaker 1: as Joe, which is I feel really bad for bad
Speaker 1: mouthing these guys and saying these things about them that
Speaker 1: we can't substantiated. But the hard part is there are
Speaker 1: all of the stories that I think everybody has heard
Speaker 1: of of gay priests and all the things I mean,
Speaker 1: there's stories of lack of a better term, sex parties
Speaker 1: and Novatican. No, none of this is substantiated, but you
Speaker 1: hear these stories. So it's like, I don't believe that. Well,
Speaker 1: I've heard it enough times. Maybe now I don't glad
Speaker 1: to believe it. Like I'm really torn on that, Like
Speaker 1: I I don't believe it ones engaged, one is married.
Speaker 1: You'd think that that would, you know, would stop it.
Speaker 1: But then again, it's a lot of people that have
Speaker 1: put on the airs and hidden it for ages and ages.
Speaker 1: I don't want to stand on that. No, it's it's
Speaker 1: hard to say. I don't think the proof is exactly
Speaker 1: conclusive for this particular one. So I don't know it's
Speaker 1: time to flip a coin. Huh. Yeah, which I which
Speaker 1: there you guys like him, I don't know. I don't
Speaker 1: necessarily like any of them. Yeah, I mean, I think
Speaker 1: I really like to say there's something really nefarious going on.
Speaker 1: That's kind of mine more fun, you know. It's it's
Speaker 1: more fun to say, oh, the Vatican totally had these
Speaker 1: dudes off for whatever reason. They had this creepy monk
Speaker 1: like the flagellateimself. It's that's so much more fun, you know.
Speaker 1: And I think that the evidence is strong that tor
Speaker 1: name was probably not the kind of guy to just
Speaker 1: go shoot two people and then himself well blood. But
Speaker 1: I also don't know that there's a good theory about
Speaker 1: what was going on, you know, I don't think there's
Speaker 1: any any None of them are good to me. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think they Even though I had to say it,
Speaker 1: I think the whole, the whole gay thing between Estimate
Speaker 1: and Tournay really makes it a little more credible. When
Speaker 1: its guess because you know you're not, even though obviously
Speaker 1: he jilted lover. Yeah, jilted lover is a lot more,
Speaker 1: a lot more big good excuse to go murder suicide. Honestly, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's way better for me than like, oh, he I'm
Speaker 1: not in it. Yeah, but you know I'm not in it.
Speaker 1: So I don't know how important the medal was to
Speaker 1: torn it, but you know, to me, it's the jilted
Speaker 1: lover is a stronger Yeah, yeah, that's a stronger motivation.
Speaker 1: It would also help explain more why the Vatican has
Speaker 1: been so hush hush about it, right, And I want
Speaker 1: to say these guys were kind of acting on their sin.
Speaker 1: And you know, for the record, I don't think that
Speaker 1: saying these two dudes were gay is bad mouthing them,
Speaker 1: but it's but we don't we don't know that that's true.
Speaker 1: That's my that's I think we're Joe and I had
Speaker 1: both go. There's nothing wrong with being gay. It's saying well,
Speaker 1: they must have been they must have been gay. Lover. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: there's there's an overttone there that shouldn't be Absolutely, I
Speaker 1: think it it's a total option, you know, And and
Speaker 1: there's there's certainly some fair proof for it, but also
Speaker 1: there's fair proof for wants of other things. So who knows. Honestly,
Speaker 1: I I personally I feel bad. I I think that
Speaker 1: it's amazing is that he's gonna sound. I think the
Speaker 1: Vatican story is right because of the stuff that I've
Speaker 1: read of all of the bs that toured a put
Speaker 1: up with. I think the straw that broke the cameras
Speaker 1: straw broke the camel's back. And think about you ever
Speaker 1: had a roommate that you really don't like, and you
Speaker 1: haven't lived with him a couple of months, you have
Speaker 1: lived with him a couple of years, and all of
Speaker 1: the sudden they leave a plate on the countertop and
Speaker 1: you lose your mind and go crazy at them. Something
Speaker 1: like that. Something. Yeah, I can see the same thing
Speaker 1: is that you've got a boss that you've hate and
Speaker 1: then one day he does something that is just so
Speaker 1: dumb and you can't take it anymore and you lose
Speaker 1: your mind. Yeah, And that's that's where I think. I
Speaker 1: don't I don't buy into the Vaticans. He had a tumor,
Speaker 1: he was like all that stuff. I think that they
Speaker 1: were they were hedging their bets with But I think
Speaker 1: he snapped. Yeah, I think I think it's possible, and
Speaker 1: I feel bad for the guy. Really, I kind of
Speaker 1: like when doing my research I had reading about torn
Speaker 1: A Um. He seemed like a likable guy. He seemed
Speaker 1: like a happy dude. And you know, the thing was,
Speaker 1: he's gonna get his medal. He was gonna go home,
Speaker 1: he was gonna start his career where he was going out.
Speaker 1: I had done that Swiss Guard, but he couldn't see
Speaker 1: this problem. He couldn't do it if he didn't get
Speaker 1: the he needed to get the medal. Was the proof
Speaker 1: that he did it, and then I did right, exactly
Speaker 1: exactly was Esterman was totally screwing him. Whether whether Obestman
Speaker 1: or somebody else that said that he couldn't get it,
Speaker 1: I don't know, but that's you know, he got screwed
Speaker 1: in the end. Yeah, he really did. He's the victim. Yeah,
Speaker 1: not Patsy the victim. Okay, so we solve that mystery.
Speaker 1: Let me give you, let me give us some relevant facts.
Speaker 1: There you want to probably dying to find our website.
Speaker 1: Of course you've probably already been there, but in case
Speaker 1: you haven't, thinking sideways podcast dot com. You can leave
Speaker 1: us a comment, check links links to all of our episodes,
Speaker 1: and you can listen to episodes from there. You can
Speaker 1: also find us on iTunes. Please subscribe, leave us a review,
Speaker 1: that would be awesome. We like reviews, especially nice reviews. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we prefer kind of nice reviews. I mean, be honest.
Speaker 1: We don't like being called idiots so much. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: As far as streaming, you can stream us from all
Speaker 1: kinds of different places. Um. Literally, you guys, name a dozen,
Speaker 1: name three answer named them, podcatcher and pod bay. All right,
Speaker 1: there you go. Next up, find us on Facebook. You
Speaker 1: might have made one of those up. Yeah, okay, now,
Speaker 1: uh pod people, Yeah, Facebook, find us on Facebook. We
Speaker 1: are on Facebook just you know, and friend us, like us,
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Speaker 1: sideways that's thinking not thinking and our last of all,
Speaker 1: if you want to send us an email, let would
Speaker 1: be great. Email address is thinking Sideways podcast at gmail
Speaker 1: dot com. Uh, and we've actually started this new thing.
Speaker 1: We posted on Reddit and I think we posted on
Speaker 1: our Facebook and I we also posted on Twitter. Um,
Speaker 1: but it occurs to us that we have some listeners
Speaker 1: who don't any of those things. People don't use social media.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, another mystery we must look into. I listened
Speaker 1: to a number of podcasts and I don't follow their
Speaker 1: face I know. Um. Actually, we utilized this network for
Speaker 1: the first time this week, and it was thanks to
Speaker 1: John and Tarkan. Yeah, but we've recently put out a
Speaker 1: call for experts UM on pretty much anything, anything and
Speaker 1: everything under this sung. We pretty much realized that we
Speaker 1: are okay at some things, but we don't really know
Speaker 1: very much about anything. So we want to improve our
Speaker 1: podcast by reaching out to people who are experts in
Speaker 1: our community who are willing to help us. So, if
Speaker 1: that is you send us an email at Thinking Side
Speaker 1: with podcast at gmail dot com. I will get back
Speaker 1: to you. Put experts in the subject line. You don't
Speaker 1: have to, but actually, yeah, put expert in the subject
Speaker 1: somewhere and we'll get back to you a list and
Speaker 1: we'll email you if we have questions. But we really
Speaker 1: appreciate it. And yeah, and the only the only caveat
Speaker 1: that we ask is we usually need a relatively quick turnaround,
Speaker 1: like a day or two. You know, if you if
Speaker 1: you get your emails and you check them, what's a
Speaker 1: week or you think on it for six months, it
Speaker 1: might not be your game. Yeah, so but do send
Speaker 1: us an email, will add you to the list and
Speaker 1: we'll probably contact you at some point a huge list already.
Speaker 1: It's been me. We started this one a week and
Speaker 1: a half ago and we I know, I took advantage
Speaker 1: of it right away. And by the way, I really
Speaker 1: could use a demolitions expert also, somebody who knows how
Speaker 1: to get rid of no no no no no no.
Speaker 1: So yeah, send us that email. If if that's you
Speaker 1: and you haven't yet found us on all of our
Speaker 1: various social media's, we would really appreciate it. And if
Speaker 1: that's it for you guys, it for me, I think
Speaker 1: I'm done. Okay, well that's until next week.