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Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways. I don't stories of things we simply don't

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Speaker 1: know the answer too. Hi there, and welcome to another

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Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Sideways. Yeah, hi, Hey, I'm I'm Joe,

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Speaker 1: joined by my co hosts and Steve, and we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about a really, really weird mystery. Yeah, okay.

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Speaker 1: Today we're gonna talk about the Vatican mergers. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's it's kind of convoluted. There's a list that's controversial.

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Speaker 1: Our mystery starts May four. It was a dark and

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Speaker 1: stormy night. You stole that right out of mystery novel,

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Speaker 1: didn't you. Yeah, you know, you know, the dark and

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Speaker 1: stormy night is considered like the one of the worst

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Speaker 1: phrase there, one of the worst sentences. Yeah. Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: I had to throw it in. I don't know how

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Speaker 1: stormy it was. I hear it was rainy, so I

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Speaker 1: just sort of just sort of bump that up license,

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Speaker 1: Yeah exactly. Now back to our mystery. It begins in

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Speaker 1: Vatican City. You probably all know where that place is.

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Speaker 1: If not paused and go do a google. A young

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Speaker 1: guy named Cedric Tournay entered the barracks of the Swiss Guards,

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Speaker 1: which is next to the Apostolic Palace. Or which is

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Speaker 1: where the Pope lives. I can already tell that I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna mispronounce literally all of these words. Oh yeah, there's some,

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Speaker 1: there's some, there's a feeling in here that's literally know.

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Speaker 1: There's one that I didn't even try to figure out

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Speaker 1: how to pronounce it. Yeah, okay, this one was tough.

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you right now. I told Joe earlier some

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Speaker 1: of these words and names that we that are in

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Speaker 1: this story, I'm really trying to figure out pronunciations. And

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Speaker 1: this is all based in Italy, so I'm watching Italian news,

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Speaker 1: I don't know Italian, trying to pick out somebody's name

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Speaker 1: to know how to pronounce it. It's harder than you

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Speaker 1: would think. Yeah, I, oh, well it's Italian. Never mind,

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Speaker 1: I'll be great at it. Sweets, that's your part Italian. Right.

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Speaker 1: So back to Cedric. He ended the barracks of the

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Speaker 1: Swiss Guards. Um. He had a gun with them, a

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Speaker 1: signal millimitter automatic, which actually wasn't unusual because he was

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Speaker 1: a lance corporal in the Swiss Guard and they actually

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Speaker 1: they actually do carry guns. I guess they didn't realize that.

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Speaker 1: I thought they just had those weird like halberds. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they carry they have swords, halberd's, pistols and submachine guns. Odd.

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Speaker 1: That's the odd collection of weapons. Okay, Yeah, And I

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Speaker 1: I did not actually take the trouble to find this out,

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Speaker 1: but I might research it. Anyways. I'm curious about if

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Speaker 1: they if they actually get training and how to use

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Speaker 1: their swords and halberds. They do they do? They do?

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Speaker 1: They do get training and at that time their target

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Speaker 1: practice requirement it was one day a year. That's all

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Speaker 1: they had to practice. That's all. That's all I have.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry. And the Swiss Guard for those of you

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Speaker 1: don't know what the Swiss Guard is, it's a small

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Speaker 1: arm the Swiss mercenaries who guard the Pope in the Vatican.

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Speaker 1: They have been for I think this is like the

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Speaker 1: five anniversary this year that they've served the Vatican. They

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Speaker 1: and as I've already said, what they're armed with. I

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Speaker 1: also want to tell you just a brief background, a

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Speaker 1: little biographical information about our cast of characters, which is

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Speaker 1: basically there's two main people here. Of course we've already

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Speaker 1: talked about Tornay he was twenty three and Swiss French,

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Speaker 1: the French speakers in Switzerland. Or maybe of the population. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: about that roughly, and so for obvious reasons, they are

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Speaker 1: they were a minority in the Swiss Guard, and Tournay

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Speaker 1: had been with a Swiss Guard for about three years

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Speaker 1: and recently been promoted to the lands corporals. So he

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Speaker 1: was doing okay, he was doing all right. Yeah. The

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Speaker 1: other protagonist share Colonel Oliwis Esterman, who will be meeting shortly.

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Speaker 1: It was the commandant of the Guard. He'd been on

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Speaker 1: the Guard. He was in joined in nineteen seventy seven,

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Speaker 1: left lived in South America and Argentina for two years,

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Speaker 1: and then came back in July nineteen eighty. He rejoined

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Speaker 1: the Swiss Guard as an officer and then he was

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Speaker 1: promoted a couple of times. Eventually he was appointed as

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Speaker 1: the acting commander of the Swiss Guard. And this is

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Speaker 1: the point of contention. Apparently there were people who did

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Speaker 1: not want to make his appointment permanent as a commandant

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Speaker 1: and so, and reportedly that they even included perhaps Pope

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Speaker 1: John Paul the Second Yeah, which is interesting because he

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Speaker 1: served as Jump Paul the second bodyguard for years and

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Speaker 1: he traveled all over the world with him and John

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Speaker 1: Paul spoke highly of him, so it's a bit odd.

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Speaker 1: So I'm not entirely sure that that's true or not.

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Speaker 1: This Vatican stuff, it's so tortured and convoluted, I mean,

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Speaker 1: who can tell. And also, by the way, Esterman was

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Speaker 1: Swiss German, meaning that he was among the majority of

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Speaker 1: Swiss people who speak German, which also, by the way,

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Speaker 1: is not like regular world German, and it's a totally

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Speaker 1: different dialect. So it is a big language barrier between

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Speaker 1: the Swiss French and the switch Swiss German, which leads

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Speaker 1: to problems in the Swiss Guard. Yeah. Well, and only

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Speaker 1: you have to be eighteen and natively born Swiss to

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Speaker 1: be in a Swiss Guard, and there was like eighteen

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Speaker 1: to thirty, but it's something I can't remember. The right.

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Speaker 1: You have to be a Hapger guy, and you have

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Speaker 1: to have served in the military. I'd have to be

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Speaker 1: a Catholic. You have to be at least five ft

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Speaker 1: eight inches tall, Is that true? Yeah? Actually, have to

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Speaker 1: be more precise five ft eight and a half inches tall.

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Speaker 1: Is that true? That's true? Yeah, you can't be any shorter. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I guess they want the guards to be tall and

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Speaker 1: imposing people. I guess I could never be a Swiss Guard.

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Speaker 1: Then you're about the Yeah, plus you're not a male

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Speaker 1: and I'm not. Are you Catholic? No Swiss? You're almost there,

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Speaker 1: I'm halfway. Yeah, So there is this whole language barrier

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Speaker 1: and then cultural differences in the Guard was lead us

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Speaker 1: to a little bit of tension. I hear, yeah, well

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Speaker 1: that's that's the problem is I was doing a bunch

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Speaker 1: of research on this and you said, it's percent of

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Speaker 1: the Swiss or French Swiss? Is that right? Roughly? You know?

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Speaker 1: Actually I just saw the numbers on on wiki and

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Speaker 1: then compared to the overall, Well that that sounds very

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Speaker 1: con was the things that I've didn't use a calculator.

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Speaker 1: I just that are rough out in my mind. But

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Speaker 1: the point, the point is is that when the guys

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Speaker 1: who are Swiss French join the Swiss Guard and they

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Speaker 1: come in the everybody in the Swiss Guard speak Swiss German,

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Speaker 1: so they don't even know the language to start with.

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Speaker 1: So they're already at a disadvantage, which is because they

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Speaker 1: learned German in school. But it's more standards. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's exactly the problem. And that's so it's these guys

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Speaker 1: are just they're they're they're already a peg down from

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Speaker 1: day one. Yeah. So Tornell went to the apartment of

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Speaker 1: Luis Esterman and he was led in by Estterman's wife.

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Speaker 1: His name was Gladys Mazo Romero. She was Venezualan. By

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Speaker 1: the way, of course she was. Of course she's been

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Speaker 1: an actress or model. I heard she used to be

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Speaker 1: a model. Yeah, it was a model. Yeah, he was

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Speaker 1: led in by the wife. He pulled out his gun,

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Speaker 1: shot Esterman twice, killing him, and then shot Gladys Romero twice,

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Speaker 1: also killing her. And and I might say, by the

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Speaker 1: way too, there's actually no no actual evidence that he

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Speaker 1: shot Esterman first and the wife's second. There actually isn't.

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Speaker 1: That was pointed out by by a pathologist, actually not,

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Speaker 1: if not one of the Vatican pathologists. Esserman was in

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Speaker 1: a chair and fell out of the chair after being shot.

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Speaker 1: So it's presumed that he was shot first because if

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Speaker 1: his wife had been shot first, he just stood up

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Speaker 1: and started, you know, moving, moving where, and so he

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Speaker 1: wouldn't have been slumped and fallen out of a chair

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Speaker 1: unless he shot the wife and was sitting. And listen,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure there is yeah, I mean it could have

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Speaker 1: been you know, you could have gone bing bing bing bang,

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Speaker 1: he could have shot estimate. Yeah, wife wants Yeah, let's

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Speaker 1: talk about this in theories maybe, yeah, we will. Yeah. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Then after that he dropped to his knees, put the

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Speaker 1: gun in his mouth and pulled the trigger. That escalated

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Speaker 1: real quickly. I know, I know. And it's kind of

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Speaker 1: a sad thing actually, But anyway, so we have a

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Speaker 1: murder suicide thing going on here. But yeah, that's the question.

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Speaker 1: Some people say not there are a lot of theories.

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Speaker 1: Some people say it was actually a triple murder. Well

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Speaker 1: it is the Vatican, committed by dark forces within the Vatican.

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Speaker 1: So we'll talk about all those theories a little bit

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Speaker 1: later on. Yeah, it's pretty much. It's pretty muddy. Yeah

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Speaker 1: it is. And frankly, there's a little disinformation in there

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Speaker 1: about some things like the Masons and stuff like that.

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Speaker 1: This is going to be the best episode. Yeah, if

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Speaker 1: you love the Mason stuff, I do. So what was

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Speaker 1: his motive? Good question? Yeah, Well apparently that you know,

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Speaker 1: as you know that the French, the French and the

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Speaker 1: German guys and the Swiss cards apparently have a you know,

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Speaker 1: it was a little thing there, like a murdery thing

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Speaker 1: or just like now you take that to have murders

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Speaker 1: more often if that were yeah, or fights or scuffles. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: but but apparently the German speakers do dominate the Swiss Guard.

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Speaker 1: Apparently there was there was talk that Tornay resented that

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Speaker 1: and resented the way the Guard was run. Apparently his

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Speaker 1: relationship with Esterman was strained. Accorded to many accounts, there

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Speaker 1: was a guy who wrote a book about this British

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Speaker 1: journalist named John Feline, and he talked to a lot

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Speaker 1: of X cards and documented that Esteman did not like Tornay. No,

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Speaker 1: he seemed to he had something out for It was

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Speaker 1: really weird specifically. Yeah, yeah, he seemed to single him out,

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Speaker 1: which I never understood what the basis of that was,

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Speaker 1: other than some disciplinary issues that are called out. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: you just don't like a dude. Yeah, I know that happens, um,

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Speaker 1: but but some of the some of it was ex

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Speaker 1: guard friends said that, you know, as far as disciplinary issues,

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Speaker 1: there were a few, but no worse than anybody else.

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Speaker 1: Torn And and some of the other French speaking guards,

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Speaker 1: as they were in the minority, they often complain of

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Speaker 1: harassment by the German speaking, the component of the Swiss Guards,

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Speaker 1: and especially Esterman. It's a next guard who was a friend.

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Speaker 1: Attorney said, and I'm gonna quote here, Esterman couldn't stand

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Speaker 1: having French speakers around. He'd always tell us you Swiss,

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Speaker 1: French have no place in the Swiss Guard. There was

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Speaker 1: no room for you here. So apparently it was kind

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Speaker 1: of bigot. Yeah, yeah, Esterman Tornay were not best buds.

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Speaker 1: But was that enough to cause murder? That's that's especially

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Speaker 1: after three years, I guess you kind of would kind

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Speaker 1: of build up. I generally think that sort of thing

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Speaker 1: comes to a head earlier than that. Three years is

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Speaker 1: a long time to kind of stick it out. But well,

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Speaker 1: I think that he might have. He might have stuck

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Speaker 1: it out because at that usually typically after three years

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Speaker 1: of service in Swiss Guards, you're awarded a medal which

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Speaker 1: is hang on, a Bennamarenti medal, which is this this

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Speaker 1: cool medal that the Pope awards to people who have

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Speaker 1: done service to the Catholic Church for three years. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: after three years, typically you get this metal. And so

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Speaker 1: he might have decided to stick it after three years,

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Speaker 1: because you know, I got the medal and the medal

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Speaker 1: would probably look good in your resume. I was gonna say,

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Speaker 1: I think the minimum tours also three years. I think

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Speaker 1: there's that too. Well, it's it's the accept I wouldn't

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Speaker 1: say the minimum tour. The accepted you're an okay individual

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Speaker 1: for having been in the Swiss Guard is to be

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Speaker 1: able to hang on for three years. Oh, I guess, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean sure, but if you're going to murder somebody,

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Speaker 1: why wait three years, because it's not like you're going

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Speaker 1: to get your medal or your commendation and then if

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Speaker 1: you're going to kill anyways, Yeah, I'm sorry, keep talking

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Speaker 1: about this story. Well, let's go back to our mystery.

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Speaker 1: Within minutes of the murders. That the murders, by the way,

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Speaker 1: we're discovered. The bodies were discovered by a nun who

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Speaker 1: lived in the apartment next door, who heard a loud

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Speaker 1: noise and so she came and check. Found some days

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Speaker 1: and then uh sent out the alarm. The Vatican sealed

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Speaker 1: off the apartment. No one was allowed near the scene

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Speaker 1: of the crime, including Italian police. Technically, the Vatican is

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Speaker 1: an independent state and they have their own police force. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they don't have to let the Italian police in no, no,

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Speaker 1: not at all, within three hours. This is about The

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Speaker 1: bodies were discovered at an i PM. I forgot to

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Speaker 1: mention that about midnight, in about three hours, and there

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Speaker 1: had not yet been an autopsy, of course. A Vatican

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Speaker 1: spokesman named Joaquin Navarro Valls issues a statement on behalf

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Speaker 1: of the Vatican which I'll quote here quote. The captain

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Speaker 1: commander of the Bontifical Swiss Guard, Captain Alouis Estruman, was

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Speaker 1: found dead in his home together with his wife gladys

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Speaker 1: Maisa Romero and Vice Corporal Cedric Tournay. The bodies were

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Speaker 1: discovered shortly after an IPM by a neighbor from the

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Speaker 1: apartment next door. It was attracted by loud noises. From

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Speaker 1: a first investigation, it is possible to affirm that all

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Speaker 1: three were killed by a firearm. Under the body of

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Speaker 1: the vice corporal, his regulation weapon was found. The information

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Speaker 1: which has emerged up to this point allows for the

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Speaker 1: theory of a quote fit of badness unquote by Vice

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Speaker 1: Corporal Tournay unquote. That sounds like the sort of thing

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Speaker 1: that people were diagnosed with madness. It's a super quick diet,

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Speaker 1: you know. We know what's happened three hours later, we

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Speaker 1: figured it all out, Like that's such a quick Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I know, I know, it really is. It might be

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Speaker 1: that they talked to some of some of the people

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Speaker 1: who some of the Swiss officers, and they said that

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Speaker 1: there was bad blood between those two. Perhaps that was it.

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Speaker 1: But the quick leap to leap to judgment, it's kind

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Speaker 1: of hoted the Vatican ever since because people are there

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Speaker 1: accused of going out and rendering judgment without knowing the facts.

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Speaker 1: Or maybe they already knew too much. Yeah, maybe they

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Speaker 1: know more than it let on and they're leaking. They

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Speaker 1: were giving their official story to facts. Yeah that's supposed

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Speaker 1: to mean. Yeah, yeah. About twenty four hours after the murder,

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Speaker 1: and other Vatican spokesman said that Tornay was quote an

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Speaker 1: individual suff suffering from the psychological disorder of paranoia unquote.

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Speaker 1: Although he had never met Tornay and there's no none

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Speaker 1: of his none of his ex guard friends or co workers,

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Speaker 1: whatever you want to call him, ever said that he

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Speaker 1: was paranoid. Yeah. No, he was angry, but not paranoid. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: he probably had good reason to be angry. Another claim

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Speaker 1: that somebody put out was that Tornay was high on

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Speaker 1: marijuana at the time of the You know, I've been

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Speaker 1: saying this a lot lately, but that's one of the

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Speaker 1: stupidest things I've ever heard in my entire life, that

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Speaker 1: that because he was high he did the killing pot.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, but every pot head that I've ever known

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Speaker 1: doesn't get off the couch. He don't have the motivation

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Speaker 1: to go on somebody down. If you have the motivation,

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Speaker 1: the paranoia isn't like, oh, I better kill this person,

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Speaker 1: because okay, I can't speak for everybody, right, but my

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Speaker 1: sense is that the paranoia that comes with pot is like,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, everybody's looking at me. Everything is going wrong.

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Speaker 1: It's not oh, I know I can get away with

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Speaker 1: murder right now. Yeah, that's the dumbest thing. That's a

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Speaker 1: completely different drug. And it was I think it was

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Speaker 1: trace amounts were found in his his blood stream. Had

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Speaker 1: to do be like at some point, yeah, yeah, And

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Speaker 1: supposedly when they searched his room they found a couple

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Speaker 1: of what did they marijuana? Cigarette? They were little joints

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Speaker 1: in a drawer. But god knows, he might have once

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Speaker 1: a you know, a month or so, couldn't sleep and

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Speaker 1: took a hit of pot. And that was it. I mean,

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Speaker 1: but it doesn't. That doesn't drive you to kill somebody

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Speaker 1: does know, Steve, I haven't ever heard of red madness. Okay,

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Speaker 1: Away from pot back to our mystery. The Vatican performed

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Speaker 1: autopsies bodies, uh, and they were sworn to secretly and

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Speaker 1: supposedly kept no written notes. Yeah, I find that hard

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Speaker 1: to believe. The Vatican documents every thing. Yeah, they have

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Speaker 1: huge proves of documents. Yeah, but this is out there

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Speaker 1: if you read, if you go out and look this

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Speaker 1: mystery up, that's what they all said. They kept no notes,

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Speaker 1: And I can find that impossible to believe. Literally impossible.

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Speaker 1: So I read Fourny's book The City of Secrets or

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Speaker 1: Fullane Sorry I don't know four. I don't know who

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Speaker 1: fourney is, but Fullane's book and sorry, he's the author

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Speaker 1: that wrote City of Secrets that Joe was talking about,

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Speaker 1: because he did a lot of the research on this,

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Speaker 1: And when I was reading it, I didn't I swear

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Speaker 1: I never saw they never kept a record. I think

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Speaker 1: it was they were sworn to secrecy and those documents

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Speaker 1: were sealed away. Vatican hung on to him, but they

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Speaker 1: just don't talk about it. Nobody ever knows there's not

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Speaker 1: much point in doing on autopsy without taking notes. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I know. By the way, the book City of Secrets

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Speaker 1: by John Fullane, a British journalist, is available on audible.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Chess kidding, but actually I wanted to mention it

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Speaker 1: now anyway, because I'm going to quote some people a

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Speaker 1: little later on. And most of the quotes that I've

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Speaker 1: I've got about this mystery are from that book. He

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Speaker 1: seems to have done the authority hated work because he

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Speaker 1: did a ton of legwork. He did, and and so

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Speaker 1: a lot of the people who spoke to him are there.

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Speaker 1: The quotes that I got from from those people I

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Speaker 1: got out of his book. So so what did the

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Speaker 1: Vatican corners is that? Who does? That's what they find

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Speaker 1: They that was consistent with murder suicide with all the

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Speaker 1: bullet holes and stuff. Yeah. They also found that Tornay

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Speaker 1: had a brain tumor or a small lesion on his

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Speaker 1: frontal lobe. Yeah, and their theory is that his behavior

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Speaker 1: was either caused by the tumor or by medication that

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Speaker 1: he was taking for the tumor. I think this would

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Speaker 1: be this would have been a really great time for

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Speaker 1: me to reach out to our experts about and yeah,

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Speaker 1: if it causes behavior like that, but it probably in

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Speaker 1: the frontal lobe, is there's that's that's where a lot

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Speaker 1: of your behavior is centered in your brain, you know.

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Speaker 1: But it would happen. They found it really small, almost

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Speaker 1: like a cyst, and it's like, I don't think it

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Speaker 1: was something. Yeah it wasn't, but also that it seems

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Speaker 1: like the behavior would have been around it wasn't like

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Speaker 1: that seems like the sort of thing. And again this

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Speaker 1: is total conjecture. I have no idea, but it seems

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Speaker 1: like that would be an escalating thing, right, you would

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Speaker 1: be having behavior problems as a trend, yeah, and not

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Speaker 1: as you're totally cool and then suddenly you go shoot

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Speaker 1: a couple of people. You don't. Yeah, that's just in

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Speaker 1: my impression. But again I think you're right. I think that,

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Speaker 1: you know, it starts out small and as a tour

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Speaker 1: gets bigger and bigger, you know, you get more weird.

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Speaker 1: Nobody reported that any of that. The Vatican also noted

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Speaker 1: that he had recently broken up with his Roman girlfriend

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Speaker 1: oh No, and that he had recently received a reprimand

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Speaker 1: from Estruman for staying out all night and not coming

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Speaker 1: back to the Vatican. Apparently, you know, for the support

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Speaker 1: Swiss card to do that, you have to get permission,

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Speaker 1: and didn't know with that permission, so it's kind of

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Speaker 1: like being a wall so a letter of reprimand yeah,

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Speaker 1: they I think it's one level. One level of rank,

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Speaker 1: you're able to be out till midnight. The next level

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Speaker 1: you're able to be up till one o'clock in the morning.

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Speaker 1: I think it's how it. Basically, every the curfew is

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Speaker 1: one am. Yeah, and then everybody has to be in. Yes,

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Speaker 1: that makes sense, you're technically out of the country. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's true. And you are in the military. You really

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Speaker 1: are still be kind of kind of suck to be

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Speaker 1: in Rome and you know, have to be have a curfew. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's true. Yeah, and then he was twenty three probably

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Speaker 1: apparently from everything I've heard, a high spirited lad. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'd never bet. I want to go. I was recently there.

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Speaker 1: It's awesome. Yeah, I need a guy. I'd love to

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Speaker 1: go to the Vatican. This podcast is really making it

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Speaker 1: easy for me to travel all the time. O. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: what's funding my trips to Roman? That would make so

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Speaker 1: much money off this? Yeah. Oh, back to the Vatican.

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Speaker 1: They s yeah, they after when they released their theory

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Speaker 1: about what about the brain tumor and all that. They

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Speaker 1: also really really used a letter because he wrote a

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Speaker 1: letter right before he committed this act and handed it

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Speaker 1: over to one of his ex one of his guard buddies,

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Speaker 1: asking this guy to get it to his mother, and

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Speaker 1: apparently that guy turned it over to the Vatican, and

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Speaker 1: it was a final letter to his mother which hadn't

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Speaker 1: been mailed. And then mother, by the way, says it's

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Speaker 1: a forgery. Yeah, but there'll be more on the letter

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Speaker 1: in a minute. But the statement said that were made

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Speaker 1: behavioral changes, paranoia, drug use really conflict with what Torney's

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Speaker 1: fellow guards had to say about him. He had been

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Speaker 1: in there for three years, and he was he had

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Speaker 1: been recently promoted. He was he had a responsible position.

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Speaker 1: He was in charge of all the guards deployed in

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Speaker 1: the Apostolic Palace, which is where the Pope was, as

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Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier, So I mean that's you know, that's

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Speaker 1: a responsible position, right, uh, and also monitor Saint Saint

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Speaker 1: Ann's Gate, which is one of the main entry points

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Speaker 1: in the Vatican. And I've got quotes from his fellow

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Speaker 1: guards which I won't I won't repeat them all. But

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Speaker 1: apparently they thought he was a great guy. Yeah. I

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Speaker 1: I didn't hear and I didn't see anything him other

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Speaker 1: Swiss guard that there was anything bad about the guy, yeah,

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Speaker 1: Or that he was going around the bend. Yeah, nobody

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Speaker 1: noticed anything like that. So after they had their services

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Speaker 1: for both the instruments and Tornay, and then after that,

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Speaker 1: Tornay's body was flown back to Switzerland for another funeral there,

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Speaker 1: of course, but his mother, whose name is Muguette Bade

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Speaker 1: stole the body. She arranged to have the body taken

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Speaker 1: from a Swiss morgue. So she had she hired or

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Speaker 1: or maybe you got actually I don't know she paid

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Speaker 1: him or not. I love it. But professor of forensic

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Speaker 1: medicine named Dr Thomas Krompecker did a second autopsy, and

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Speaker 1: based on his conclusion, Tornay's mother hired two French lawyers.

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Speaker 1: I won't bother naming them because I'll probably be pronounced

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Speaker 1: their names and the press. The lawyers had a press

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Speaker 1: comperence released a seventy page report that disputed the Vatican's

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Speaker 1: version and the murder and the autopsy reports, and demanded

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Speaker 1: a new investigation. So Here's what the autopsy found the

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Speaker 1: second autopsy. First of all, Tornay Service pistol used nine

405
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Speaker 1: millimeter bullets, but the exit wound in his skull measured

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Speaker 1: seven millimeters. The mystery deepens. Next, they said that he

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Speaker 1: had a fracture of the cranium, which was not on

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Speaker 1: the bullet's trajectory. Yeah, and they said, Third, his lungs

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Speaker 1: contained a large amount of blood and saliva, which could

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Speaker 1: not have been caused by his suicide. And I'm not

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Speaker 1: a medical expert, so I really couldn't tell you that,

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Speaker 1: but they say it could have. Also, it could have

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Speaker 1: been caused by internal bleeding. Dude blows on the head

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Speaker 1: before he died. Maybe. Also, they found in the second

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Speaker 1: autopsy no tumor on his brain. Of course I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Maybe the Vatican guys removed the tumor. And I was

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Speaker 1: about to say, if the Vatican has done its autopsy

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Speaker 1: and they've been slicing through his brain, it is entirely

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Speaker 1: possible that on the second autopsy, if it is something

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Speaker 1: as small as we seem to believe it is, you

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Speaker 1: wouldn't You might not see it. They might have cut

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Speaker 1: through it, So then it's not obvious or removed it.

423
00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:13,280
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm not you know, I don't do

424
00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:15,240
Speaker 1: that kind of work, But I'm just I'm trying to

425
00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:16,720
Speaker 1: think of what it would be like for somebody to

426
00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:19,720
Speaker 1: come in and have to do a second examination. I

427
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:23,920
Speaker 1: guess for me, the lack of tumor is the least

428
00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:27,560
Speaker 1: startling thing there. You know. It's like, Okay, people lie

429
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:29,680
Speaker 1: about tumors or it was a legion, it wasn't a tumor,

430
00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:34,919
Speaker 1: you know whatever. If they were cutting up his brain, sure, okay,

431
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:39,440
Speaker 1: maybe they cut off the tumor, fine. Whatever. This other

432
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:44,600
Speaker 1: stuff though, so like blood and saliva and lungs, a

433
00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:50,679
Speaker 1: fracture in your skull, seven millimeter exit wounds. Yeah, some

434
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:55,720
Speaker 1: of that stuff suggests like violence, yeah, yeah, like the

435
00:23:55,840 --> 00:24:00,520
Speaker 1: beating or somebody over the head. Yeah. Is there more stuff? Yeah.

436
00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:03,400
Speaker 1: They also said his front teeth were broken off gone

437
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:06,679
Speaker 1: had been forced into his mouth. That's suspicious. Yeah. And

438
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:09,680
Speaker 1: then last of all, the final letter to his mother,

439
00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:14,040
Speaker 1: according to his mother, is a forgery. Because well I'll

440
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:17,200
Speaker 1: get into that more a little bit later on, but

441
00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:20,680
Speaker 1: apparently he just wasn't his style what it wasn't written

442
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:24,920
Speaker 1: to stuff. So anyway, I talked about the metal the

443
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:30,159
Speaker 1: Benamarenti Medal, which he was supposedly, yeah, supposedly it's a good,

444
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:34,760
Speaker 1: good metal, right, Yeah, yeah, it's an honored to get it. Well, no,

445
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:39,720
Speaker 1: I think that's the translation would be Benny okay, okay,

446
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:44,119
Speaker 1: all right, But shortly before the ceremony and this is

447
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:46,720
Speaker 1: like two days before, Yeah, he found out he wasn't

448
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:50,800
Speaker 1: going to get the metal was second time. Yeah, he

449
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:53,720
Speaker 1: wasn't even informed about it by anybody. He just saw

450
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 1: a list of the recipients and his name wasn't on it.

451
00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:00,920
Speaker 1: So was that was that? Oliways Esterman striking again? Well,

452
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,000
Speaker 1: I so he didn't get it the first year. He

453
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:06,479
Speaker 1: thought he was going to get it the year prior,

454
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:10,000
Speaker 1: but he was to his service time wasn't was she

455
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,560
Speaker 1: was short? He was, Yeah, he hadn't hit the exact

456
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:15,480
Speaker 1: three market. I think he missed it by like two months.

457
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:17,720
Speaker 1: So he knew he was going to get it the

458
00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:21,119
Speaker 1: second time because he was a good dude. Yeah. And

459
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:25,240
Speaker 1: but yeah, I mean I know that there's stuff that

460
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 1: you know that that Esterman really didn't like him because

461
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:33,480
Speaker 1: the disciplinary reasons and that he was I'm almost positive

462
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 1: I remember reading something about Esterman being one of the

463
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 1: key figures in the decision for him not to get it. Yeah,

464
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,160
Speaker 1: which makes sense. I mean, obviously he as a head

465
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:47,440
Speaker 1: of the Swiss Guard, he would have a lot of

466
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:51,880
Speaker 1: a lot of in that respect. Yeah, yeah, j yeah,

467
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 1: what a jerk. But the some of some have said

468
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,040
Speaker 1: that the denial of the medal was a straw that

469
00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:01,480
Speaker 1: broke the camel's back, and it was. It was a

470
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:05,399
Speaker 1: couple of days before the murder suicide death situation. That

471
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:07,359
Speaker 1: was a couple of days before. Yeah, I think the

472
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 1: it was it was now as he found out the

473
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 1: day of the day of the murder suicide, he found

474
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,440
Speaker 1: out he was just two days before, two days before.

475
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:17,879
Speaker 1: He had found out that day. Yeah, and he had

476
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 1: already booked tickets for his family to come and everything. Yeah,

477
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 1: he was ready to have I think he even booked

478
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,439
Speaker 1: some place to have dinner with everybody. Yeah, like he

479
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:29,119
Speaker 1: totally he totally expected this to happen. Yeah. It was

480
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:31,440
Speaker 1: a real, real poke in the eye with a sharp stick,

481
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:35,399
Speaker 1: let's face it. Yeah, so it sounds pretty awful. You know.

482
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 1: I gotta say, you know, I feel bad for torn.

483
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:40,479
Speaker 1: You know, he seemed like a good guy. It's uh,

484
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:43,240
Speaker 1: I really just seemed like he was kind of a

485
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 1: bad position. But anyway, so when he found that out,

486
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:47,680
Speaker 1: he went back to the barracks who wrote the letter

487
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:49,800
Speaker 1: to his mother and handed it over to a friend

488
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:52,359
Speaker 1: and then grabbed his gun and had a headed to

489
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:56,640
Speaker 1: Estman's apartment. And we know, we know what happened there.

490
00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:02,760
Speaker 1: Actually we don't know. Yeah, you get by that. Tornay's

491
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 1: mother again claims that the letter that he wrote is

492
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:08,439
Speaker 1: a forgery. For one thing, the date it was was

493
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:12,440
Speaker 1: four point oh five point nine eighth that which in

494
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 1: you know, the Europeans they do they do day, month, year,

495
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:18,639
Speaker 1: whereas we do month a year. Just in case you

496
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:22,040
Speaker 1: don't know that, she said, he always spelled out the months,

497
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:23,920
Speaker 1: so he should have put he should have written May

498
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 1: four or four May. Actually yeah. Um. He refers to her,

499
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,680
Speaker 1: his sister Melinda, by her name Melinda instead of the

500
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:35,920
Speaker 1: nickname which he always used for her, which was Dot.

501
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:40,199
Speaker 1: He calls the Pope the Pope in this letter, but

502
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:44,119
Speaker 1: he always used the term holy Father. And he also

503
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:46,920
Speaker 1: said when one of the last lines of the letter

504
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 1: quote tell Melinda, Sarah and Papa that I love you

505
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 1: and all that stuff, it was that's not a direct

506
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 1: quote but he didn't mention his two stepbrothers, who also

507
00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 1: was very close to Dade. Was she able to produce

508
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:05,200
Speaker 1: old letters that backed up her claims of his diversions

509
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 1: of writing style? Was that, do you know? You know,

510
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 1: I don't know. That's a good question. I all I

511
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 1: know is just some quotes from her, from her lawyers

512
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 1: and from a few other people. I was, you know,

513
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 1: I keep letters. I have a couple of friends that

514
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,160
Speaker 1: the way that, because I'm old bashioned, apparently the way

515
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 1: we talk is we actually write letters to each other

516
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:26,880
Speaker 1: and I keep those. And I certainly would keep correspondence

517
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:29,440
Speaker 1: from a son or a significant other things like that.

518
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:31,439
Speaker 1: So it seems like it would have been a fairly

519
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 1: simple thing for her to say, wait, but actually look, yeah,

520
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 1: I have a feeling that that is probably in that

521
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 1: seventy five page document that our lawyers put out. Yeah,

522
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 1: I'll bet you that's where that evidence is, and that's

523
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 1: why we haven't seen it. It's really it's kind of

524
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 1: frustrating and annoying that that that's nowhere on the internet.

525
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 1: I mean, everything should be on the internet. I can't

526
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,520
Speaker 1: find I couldn't find that anywhere. Yeah, yeah, she should

527
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 1: really what she really needs to do is and this

528
00:28:57,280 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 1: is one of the things that makes me wonder just

529
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 1: a little bit it about her story because she's got

530
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 1: got this autopsy report, the evidence of the letters knowledge,

531
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 1: she should be able to put together like a book

532
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:08,960
Speaker 1: and all that stuff and release all this to the public.

533
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:10,760
Speaker 1: But she's not doing that. She's got these lawyers out

534
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:13,720
Speaker 1: there making statements. How old is she though, I don't

535
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 1: know she's I would guess at the time would have

536
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 1: to be at least maybe mid to late fifties, and

537
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 1: she's been on a number of documentaries and stuff like that. Yeah,

538
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 1: that's the sort of time that you pull that stuff

539
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,120
Speaker 1: out if you have it. Yeah, I think so. Looguet

540
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 1: wrote to the Pope, that's Pope John Paul the Second

541
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 1: twice asking for another investigation, questioning the Vatican's version of

542
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 1: his death. Tourney's death got no answer, although, unfairness, the

543
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,480
Speaker 1: Pope at this point in his life was pretty he

544
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 1: was pretty old and sick. I think he had parkinstones

545
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:53,720
Speaker 1: also did, yeah, and so, and of course he never

546
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 1: really recovered from being shot by that Turkish guy. Yeah, yeah,

547
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 1: he never Yeah, that really the number on it. It

548
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:06,200
Speaker 1: really did. Yeah, and so will do. Yeah, yeah, it's

549
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 1: not like it's not like a TV. You know, it's

550
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:14,680
Speaker 1: a fleshy. I know, it's it's it's tough on it.

551
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 1: She also didn't She also claimed that the Vatican said

552
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:22,640
Speaker 1: she couldn't come to the funeral in realme yeah yeah,

553
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 1: and said that they tried to discourage her to come.

554
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 1: They said that his body was his body was in

555
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 1: really bad shape and his head had been torn off.

556
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 1: This is what she says. I can't get any documentations.

557
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:35,920
Speaker 1: And and also they said that all the hotels in

558
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 1: Rome were full. That's not true, but yeah, yeah, so

559
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 1: that's what she says. Well, and you know, this is

560
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:45,959
Speaker 1: probably a good time to bring something up, which is

561
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 1: everything except for that one official statement from the Vatican.

562
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 1: He's from everybody outside, he said. She said the Vatican

563
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 1: went on full lockdown on this. I mean they release

564
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 1: their statements and not a word was said. Everybody in

565
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:08,880
Speaker 1: the Vatican was told, especially the Swiss Guard, you don't

566
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 1: say a word about this. If you do your gun,

567
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 1: you're out of here. Your job is over. But that's

568
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 1: why the this John Flane when he wrote his book,

569
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:22,480
Speaker 1: he was only able to get X guards to talk

570
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 1: to him. Yeah, so yeah, yeah, he would he would

571
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 1: be he would get interviews with people under illusions of

572
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 1: I think he was just he was saying he was

573
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 1: going to write a book about the Swiss Guard itself,

574
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 1: nothing about the deaths, and and every time he would

575
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:42,080
Speaker 1: start to turn the conversation to the set of murders,

576
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 1: everybody just went full lockdown. They just shut him out. No,

577
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 1: not talking about that. Okay, hey we're done. I gotta go,

578
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 1: I gotta get I gotta get back by and people

579
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 1: literally would run away. I mean, that's how emphatic they

580
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 1: were of following their orders. Well, I mean, you do.

581
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:02,400
Speaker 1: Being at the Vatican is like being in the military

582
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 1: Swiss Guard, notwithstanding, I think the entire organization it's so

583
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 1: locked down. So nit yeah, I get together. Yeah. I

584
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:17,240
Speaker 1: think that they might have benefited from being a little

585
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:19,479
Speaker 1: more open, like maybe turning the body over to an

586
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 1: Italian pathologist who who did the work and stuff. Have

587
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 1: some forensic scientists come in and see the murder scene

588
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 1: or whatever, I'm sorry, the crime scene to the crime

589
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:31,120
Speaker 1: scene and do it, you know, are participate in the

590
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 1: autopsy and all that stuff, And maybe some of these

591
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 1: questions would have been answered, but yeah, there's there's there's

592
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 1: not a single photo that anybody has seen of the

593
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:42,360
Speaker 1: crime scene. There's all kinds of these reenactments. Yeah apparently. Yeah,

594
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 1: that's what I heard, is that the photos that just

595
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 1: sort of disappeared along with a little bit of evidence.

596
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 1: Well hindsight. Yeah, you try and downplay a thing that

597
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:52,920
Speaker 1: happened that's kind of tragic in your community, and it

598
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 1: backfires and everybody says you're trying to hide something. Yeah. Yeah.

599
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 1: And also the Vaticans does have its own least force,

600
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 1: but they don't deal with murders very often now, not

601
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 1: at all. So I think the last time there was

602
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:08,959
Speaker 1: a murder at the Vatican was like three hundred years

603
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:12,520
Speaker 1: prior something short of the stories in Dan Brown's books.

604
00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:14,800
Speaker 1: But unless you unless you buy the stories about Pope

605
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 1: John Paul, the first you've heard about that, right, Yeah

606
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 1: he was he was in office for just a matter

607
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 1: of weeks, but dead. Yeah, that obviously kicked off. Who

608
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:26,400
Speaker 1: knows when, might cover that one one of these days,

609
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:30,880
Speaker 1: But that kicked off just myriad conspiracy theories. So other

610
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 1: stuff happened, right, The mom claimed other things as well. Yeah, Yeah,

611
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,960
Speaker 1: besides that, they sent an Onwood to Switzerland to meet

612
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 1: with her, and she said here and I quote this

613
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:45,920
Speaker 1: is again from John Filane's book It's a City of Secrets,

614
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 1: um available in audible quote. He wanted to find out

615
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 1: how much I knew and what I planned to do

616
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:55,880
Speaker 1: about it. He gave me a rosary, but he also

617
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 1: threatened me in the name of his superiors, telling me

618
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:01,120
Speaker 1: I should stop asking about Tourney's death and think of

619
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 1: my surviving children. He said that he was sure I

620
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:06,600
Speaker 1: wouldn't want anything bad to happen to them. That's a threat,

621
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 1: isn't it. Unquote sounds like a threat. Sounds like a threat.

622
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:11,600
Speaker 1: But again, we don't have any documentation. This is just

623
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:15,240
Speaker 1: her talking, so right, well, I feel the Vatican officials,

624
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:18,320
Speaker 1: the envoy would be very careful to not have documentation

625
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 1: of something like that, right, If you're going to say

626
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:22,640
Speaker 1: something like that, you're not going to be like, oh, also,

627
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:26,799
Speaker 1: the court reporter sitting right here, right, Yeah, Well, she's

628
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:31,720
Speaker 1: also a grieving mother, and I'm not discounting what she's saying,

629
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:35,160
Speaker 1: but her emotional state kind of has to be taken

630
00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:39,319
Speaker 1: into consideration. Absolutely, And I think it's hard when you're

631
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 1: grieving and you're sad. It's hard to keep respective. Well,

632
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 1: I think you have to. You have to temper what

633
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:50,319
Speaker 1: people say they heard. You know, if somebody sits down

634
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 1: and says, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry for your loss,

635
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:55,759
Speaker 1: and you've decided that they're the bad guy, it's going

636
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 1: to sound really sarcastic and awful or something. You know,

637
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:02,279
Speaker 1: things like that always need to be taken into considerations.

638
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:04,840
Speaker 1: So the words of a grieving mother I think should

639
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 1: often be taken with a grain of salt. But I

640
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 1: do think she also has some good points. Yeah, there

641
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:12,840
Speaker 1: was really I don't think any real reason for the

642
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:15,839
Speaker 1: Vatican the sense somebody just threatened her because they were

643
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 1: in control of the whole situation. There was nothing she

644
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:20,719
Speaker 1: could do to them, so she proposed no threat, so

645
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:23,200
Speaker 1: that it's really pointless to trying to threaten her. Yeah.

646
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 1: So that's why I think that, like you say, she

647
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 1: may be misinterpreted things said. I don't think that they

648
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:31,200
Speaker 1: actually sent somebody a switcherland just to I think, you know,

649
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:34,480
Speaker 1: I think that it's totally plausible that she she heard

650
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:38,160
Speaker 1: somebody sitting down and saying, you have other children, think

651
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:44,400
Speaker 1: about them, care for them as a threat. Yeah, exactly.

652
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:47,440
Speaker 1: Catholics are into family. Still have you still have other children?

653
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:50,880
Speaker 1: You know? Hey, you know the Italian Catholics in particular,

654
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:54,080
Speaker 1: are they're in the family. If you lose somebody, you

655
00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:56,239
Speaker 1: should grieve that, you should be sad about that, but

656
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,439
Speaker 1: also think about your family that still lives. Absolutely, they're

657
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:02,799
Speaker 1: important too. That's my experience with the Roman Catholics. And

658
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,279
Speaker 1: I do actually have experienced. Yeah, yeah, I got a

659
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 1: whole Catholic background myself. But I'll talk about that some

660
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 1: at the time. What some other things that she said

661
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:16,919
Speaker 1: that this is Mougette again. Tony's mother also said that

662
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:19,840
Speaker 1: a year before he died, Torney told her that he

663
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:22,479
Speaker 1: and two of the Swiss cards were investigating Opus Day,

664
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 1: about Opus Day, these the sinister organizations, the shadowy sinisters.

665
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:31,120
Speaker 1: Not really, but I explain what that is because I

666
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:33,239
Speaker 1: really I had a hard time figuring this one out.

667
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:35,000
Speaker 1: Are you gonna or should we just tell him to

668
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:36,960
Speaker 1: google it? Yeah? Yeah, I can google it. I mean,

669
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:39,640
Speaker 1: my my understanding of Opus Day is that it's it's

670
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:42,200
Speaker 1: an organization. It's almost like a church in the sense,

671
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 1: but it's not geographically centered on anything. It's not not

672
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:47,200
Speaker 1: in a town or anything like that, but there is

673
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:49,440
Speaker 1: there's a card in a little bishop and all that stuff.

674
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:53,799
Speaker 1: I guess they call it a one of the prelature. Um. Yeah,

675
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:56,920
Speaker 1: that's that's the right word. I mean, yeah, basically, I

676
00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 1: think it's Gosh, it's a group that holds to a

677
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 1: slightly different theological view of the teachings of the Bible

678
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 1: or Christ or marry all of that. I mean, because

679
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 1: I believe Opus Date there they're really kind of conservative

680
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:18,719
Speaker 1: and they think that some things that are done in

681
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,840
Speaker 1: the church are a little too liberal, and they're trying

682
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 1: to control or correct that. That's that's what I've I've

683
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:30,160
Speaker 1: come to understand whether that's right or not, That's why

684
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:34,600
Speaker 1: I've understood it. According to Wikipedia, which I've pulled up

685
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:38,839
Speaker 1: on my phone, Opus Day is an institution of the

686
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:42,799
Speaker 1: Roman Catholic Church I am quoting sorry that teaches that

687
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:45,920
Speaker 1: everyone is called to holiness and that ordinary life is

688
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 1: the path to sanctity. The majority of the membership are

689
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 1: lay people with secular priests, under the governance of a

690
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:55,080
Speaker 1: bishop elected by specific members that are appointed by the

691
00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:59,280
Speaker 1: Pope Um Opus Day. In case you didn't realize this,

692
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:01,120
Speaker 1: this is something that I know because I took Latin

693
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:06,560
Speaker 1: is Latin for the work of God, and the organization

694
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:09,640
Speaker 1: is often referred to by the members and supporters as

695
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 1: the work the work. Okay, there's lots of other stuff

696
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:14,880
Speaker 1: going on there, but I think that's probably a pretty

697
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:19,840
Speaker 1: good yea quick overview. Yeah, so anyway, there, you know,

698
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:21,920
Speaker 1: up this stay there, there's a lot of you if

699
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 1: you look on the web, there's a lot of conspiracy

700
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:26,879
Speaker 1: rainage stuff about this day that they're claiming they're much

701
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:28,759
Speaker 1: more sinister than I than they appear to be, And

702
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 1: who knows, maybe they are really, but they don't appear

703
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:33,800
Speaker 1: to me to actually be a sinister organization. I think

704
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 1: there's something to be said for a Roman Catholic tradition

705
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:44,759
Speaker 1: that employees lay people and secular people as they're kind

706
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:49,040
Speaker 1: of leadership. I don't know secular secular people, so I

707
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:50,719
Speaker 1: mean that's what Wikipeda said. It was it said that

708
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,080
Speaker 1: they were secular, and again, you know it's Wikipeda, so

709
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 1: it could be wrong. But yeah, but if if within

710
00:38:56,640 --> 00:39:00,520
Speaker 1: a tradition, if you're saying these non religious white right unquote,

711
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:04,880
Speaker 1: that's what secular means, non religious people are in places

712
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:08,880
Speaker 1: of power within a Roman Catholic tradition. That's weird. That

713
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:14,920
Speaker 1: doesn't make any sense at all. Wikipedia probably Yeah, yeah, sentimental,

714
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:17,799
Speaker 1: sentimental letter. I did also just check one of our

715
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:21,080
Speaker 1: expert emails, and you were right about the what was

716
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:26,399
Speaker 1: it prelature. It's a personal prelature is personal. Yeah, it's

717
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 1: what Opus Day is. Yeah, so you know, I mean,

718
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:32,960
Speaker 1: if yeah, people want to learn more about it, google it,

719
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:36,560
Speaker 1: because it really is. It's really dense. It's one of

720
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:40,120
Speaker 1: the things I know we reached out for some help with. Um.

721
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 1: It's just it's really really complex, and I think that

722
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 1: I think that white people call it sinisters because they're

723
00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:51,200
Speaker 1: not open. Everybody wants everything to be transparent today and

724
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:56,879
Speaker 1: they are not transparent. Yeah that's hard. Yeah, but yeah,

725
00:39:56,960 --> 00:39:58,840
Speaker 1: so you're naturally going to get to just like the Vatican.

726
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:01,840
Speaker 1: You're gonna get some dispire r theories because the Vatican

727
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:05,480
Speaker 1: is like just like that and it's not really that open. Yeah.

728
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:09,640
Speaker 1: But speaking of up his Opus Day, I am. I

729
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:12,839
Speaker 1: have another quote from City of Secrets, which is from

730
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 1: an unnamed Vatican monseigneur, and the quote is this quote.

731
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:20,759
Speaker 1: There's one common thread running through this, and it's the

732
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:24,759
Speaker 1: Opus Day movement. The instruments were both close to it.

733
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:27,480
Speaker 1: Navarro valves as a member Navarrow remember he was a

734
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:30,279
Speaker 1: senior Vatican spokesman. They gave that statement three hours after

735
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:32,920
Speaker 1: back to the quote, and he was very fast and

736
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:35,120
Speaker 1: getting to the scene of the crime when he was alerted.

737
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:47,560
Speaker 1: And the Holy Father's Shadowez, so it's somebody's name. I

738
00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:54,840
Speaker 1: think it's yeah, yeah, And the Holy Father's Shadows is

739
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:58,680
Speaker 1: said to be supportive of Open's Day. Given the movements

740
00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:01,160
Speaker 1: taste for secrecy, all the people are going to follow

741
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:04,400
Speaker 1: the principle that the less said, the better. Yeah, I

742
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:06,879
Speaker 1: don't know. That's I don't know. That doesn't really mean much,

743
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:09,640
Speaker 1: but I just had to throw that in. So Opus

744
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:12,919
Speaker 1: Day figures a lot in the theories around this thing.

745
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 1: There have been a lot of that. And again, I

746
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 1: know we just said this before, but it's it's the

747
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:21,239
Speaker 1: fact that that nobody's talking. Yeah, that's and that's my

748
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 1: hardest thing before we get into the theory section. That's

749
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:25,759
Speaker 1: the one thing that I have with this story that's

750
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:30,239
Speaker 1: so top is so much of what we have it's hearsay.

751
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:35,200
Speaker 1: So it's it's really difficult to build a firm case

752
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:39,680
Speaker 1: on hearsay. I know, I know that's so, that's it.

753
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:41,719
Speaker 1: I mean, there's very little solid about this whole thing,

754
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 1: and it's a fun little mystery. Oh absolutely, it's intriguing

755
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 1: it to be. I mean I when I got the

756
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:49,239
Speaker 1: book for cram Andy sakes, Yeah, we might have to

757
00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:51,200
Speaker 1: go to the Vatican and really solve this one. Well.

758
00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:54,640
Speaker 1: For as an interesting aside, apparently the the Opus Day

759
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:59,320
Speaker 1: faction of Roman Catholicism, that's what in the Dan Brown

760
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:07,520
Speaker 1: novel is the guy who's like whipping himself the soft mall. Yeah, yeah,

761
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 1: that's that's apparently a big part of the controversy surrounding

762
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:18,239
Speaker 1: open you know, the the Dan Brown stuff does like

763
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 1: feed into that. And I think that probably I didn't

764
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:23,440
Speaker 1: read the book, but City of Secrets, I bet yeah,

765
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 1: a little bit feeds into that. Any kind of Opus

766
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:29,319
Speaker 1: Day conspiracy theory, they're going to talk about stuff like that, Yeah,

767
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:30,960
Speaker 1: and that's kind of stuff weird people out. Although I

768
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:33,960
Speaker 1: don't think that many people actually flagelights themselves up to day,

769
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:36,879
Speaker 1: I think I think they have more typically. The more

770
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:39,879
Speaker 1: typically they do stuff like fasting and things like it's sacrifice,

771
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:44,800
Speaker 1: it's fasting, it's kneeling and praying for extended periods of time.

772
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:49,280
Speaker 1: It's laying in on the floor on a hard floor

773
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:51,880
Speaker 1: with your arms out and your legs straight in the

774
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:54,439
Speaker 1: position of Christ to make the cross with your bond,

775
00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:57,719
Speaker 1: which I'm sure it's very uncomfortable after a while. Oh yeah,

776
00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:00,880
Speaker 1: after ten minutes, it's probably uncomfortable do. But it's that

777
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:07,919
Speaker 1: self sacrifice, the flagellation. I that's extreme. I know that.

778
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:11,680
Speaker 1: I in the book there was stuff about I cannot

779
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:16,000
Speaker 1: remember what this device is called, but there is. It's

780
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:18,480
Speaker 1: kind of what you know the dog callers that have

781
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 1: the pinchers for like Doberman's or Rottweiler's where you pull

782
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:24,680
Speaker 1: on it and pinches their neck in any kind of

783
00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:26,959
Speaker 1: dog that has a thick neck. Yes, yeah, well not

784
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:30,240
Speaker 1: not like a choke change. Okay, Well, there's a device

785
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:36,799
Speaker 1: like that that has little barbed teeth that supposedly as

786
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:43,160
Speaker 1: a form of this, will be worn on the upper calf,

787
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:46,359
Speaker 1: just just below the knees, so your calf muscle holds

788
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:49,239
Speaker 1: it in place, and all those little barbed teeth are

789
00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:53,359
Speaker 1: on the inside, essentially sawing at your leg as you're

790
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:57,919
Speaker 1: walking around all day. And that, according to what I've read,

791
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:02,719
Speaker 1: is also a form of this, whether that's true or not.

792
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 1: And yeah, I don't know if that actually happens or

793
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:08,680
Speaker 1: if this is just like something that was a medieval

794
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 1: thing that people say is still happening. But that's another

795
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:14,720
Speaker 1: thing I saw. Call have you go on the internet.

796
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:18,200
Speaker 1: There's people are in all kinds of weird stuff in

797
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:21,319
Speaker 1: and out of open stay. But my understanding though is

798
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:25,440
Speaker 1: that they mostly mostly just fascinating. Mostly it's mostly mostly

799
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:29,040
Speaker 1: pretty mundane. Yeah, pretty mundane. So that doesn't mean that

800
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:31,239
Speaker 1: there aren't some radicals, but there are some radicals and

801
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:35,760
Speaker 1: literally everything always people to take a little too far. Okay,

802
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:38,440
Speaker 1: you guys wanted to do some theories, let's do it.

803
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:43,760
Speaker 1: Let's do some theories. Okay. Number one, what happened pretty

804
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:47,920
Speaker 1: much went down, like the Vatican said, boring. Yeah, it's

805
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:51,520
Speaker 1: not fun. But apparently there was tension between the Germans

806
00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:55,520
Speaker 1: and the French and the Swiss Guard. There was persecution

807
00:44:55,560 --> 00:45:00,200
Speaker 1: of Tournay by Estramonry Piers. Tornado protested to est his

808
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:03,719
Speaker 1: superiors and to the chaplain and everybody else, and they

809
00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:08,440
Speaker 1: did nothing. And so it's a theory that his anger

810
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:10,960
Speaker 1: and frustration just built and built and built, and then

811
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:13,520
Speaker 1: one of what the metal was was with with hell

812
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:16,160
Speaker 1: from him without warning. And that's like you say, after

813
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:18,719
Speaker 1: he had done so much to inviting his family down

814
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:21,399
Speaker 1: and everything like that. I mean, yeah, he was ready. Yeah,

815
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:23,239
Speaker 1: he was ready for it. And it must have been

816
00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:28,239
Speaker 1: a real big blow. I know that. Do you know?

817
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:32,319
Speaker 1: It's the chaplain that the Swiss Guard are supposed to

818
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:35,719
Speaker 1: talk to it the Swiss Guards chaplain. I cannot remember

819
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:37,680
Speaker 1: his name. He forgot his name too. I know it's

820
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:40,239
Speaker 1: Jell j e h l. I think that's how you

821
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:46,000
Speaker 1: pronounce it in in a interview with the chaplain, Like

822
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:50,239
Speaker 1: his name is spelled j e h l E. I

823
00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:55,760
Speaker 1: don't know how to pronounce. We'll say it's Gell, but Jelly,

824
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:58,560
Speaker 1: I don't know. But the point is he had made

825
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:05,240
Speaker 1: the statement that Tornay should have been informed days prior,

826
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:11,640
Speaker 1: alone in a room with a supervisor and himself told hey,

827
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:13,879
Speaker 1: you're not going to get the metal and here's why

828
00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:17,640
Speaker 1: probably and here's why. And at that point he could

829
00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:19,440
Speaker 1: have you know, he could have broken in tears, he

830
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:23,520
Speaker 1: could have screamed and yelled at everybody, but it would

831
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:27,720
Speaker 1: have been in a controlled environment. Yeah, yeah, and yeah,

832
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 1: and I heard he did actually break down in tears

833
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:31,600
Speaker 1: after he found out he wasn't gonna get the medal.

834
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:35,800
Speaker 1: That's that's what is said. Yeah, yeah, so a major

835
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:39,839
Speaker 1: crushing blow to him, and so that's when he went

836
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:43,920
Speaker 1: and wrote that letter. Supposedly he did try to He

837
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:46,040
Speaker 1: said that they tried to contact the chaplain and talk

838
00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:48,759
Speaker 1: to him about it, and but the chaplain wouldn't talk

839
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:51,319
Speaker 1: to him. The chaplain denies that though, of course. Yeah,

840
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:54,200
Speaker 1: the chaplain says he came to him and then he

841
00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:57,000
Speaker 1: didn't want to talk. It's like, well, why did he

842
00:46:57,040 --> 00:46:58,919
Speaker 1: come to you? I don't know. But it's also been

843
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:02,520
Speaker 1: brought out that the chaplain had dinner plans at night

844
00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:05,200
Speaker 1: and so he was in a bit of a hurry

845
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:07,040
Speaker 1: and kind of brushed him off and said come back

846
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:10,279
Speaker 1: to me later. Yeah, so there's an issue. So he's

847
00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:13,719
Speaker 1: probably got a few regrets there, quite likely. So that's

848
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:16,640
Speaker 1: theory number one. Let's talk about theory number two. Yeah,

849
00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:18,560
Speaker 1: this is the one that's been put out there. This

850
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:21,920
Speaker 1: is one of those vague little theories. Esterman knew too

851
00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:25,080
Speaker 1: much about the secret intrigues in the Vatican, because, after all,

852
00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:26,759
Speaker 1: he was a pope's bodyguard. He spent a lot of

853
00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:30,120
Speaker 1: time around the Pope, wasn't he Well, yeah, he wasn't

854
00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:31,960
Speaker 1: quite as close to the Pope though, I mean obviously

855
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:33,880
Speaker 1: he would have been. He might have you know. Oh,

856
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:36,640
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm getting them mixed up. Okay, Esterman was

857
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:40,160
Speaker 1: that was the bodyguard. Yeah, souther Vatican had him killed

858
00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:43,520
Speaker 1: and Tornado was just a patsy. So here's the weird

859
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:47,520
Speaker 1: thing about that. When the Vatican put out all their

860
00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:51,680
Speaker 1: statements about Esterman, one of the things that they say

861
00:47:52,239 --> 00:47:56,120
Speaker 1: is he was there when the Pope was shot, which

862
00:47:56,239 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 1: he was. He was a Swiss guard protecting the pope

863
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:04,280
Speaker 1: on but they say that he threw himself in front

864
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:07,400
Speaker 1: of the Pope to take bullets and defend the Pope

865
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:09,520
Speaker 1: with his life. I didn't do a very good job

866
00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:12,719
Speaker 1: of it, did he. No, it's not true. It's not true.

867
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:16,560
Speaker 1: It's absolutely not true. Because there's photographs of the people

868
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:20,360
Speaker 1: who were in the car with the Pope immediately after

869
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:24,440
Speaker 1: he was shot, and you know who's not there. So

870
00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:27,640
Speaker 1: that's a photograph of the shooting. Actually an estument is

871
00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:33,600
Speaker 1: hiding behind them. No, but but no, he's not there.

872
00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:37,080
Speaker 1: He was somewhere off, you know, following the car. So

873
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:40,760
Speaker 1: it's it's I don't know what he would have known

874
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:44,319
Speaker 1: and why they would have turned around, and some praises

875
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:48,400
Speaker 1: about him that weren't actually true if they had so

876
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:51,520
Speaker 1: much reason to kill him. Well, I think there there's

877
00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:54,080
Speaker 1: lots of things you can learn in the spy trade,

878
00:48:54,760 --> 00:49:00,279
Speaker 1: the tenure of being someone's bodyguard. I don't House of

879
00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:03,040
Speaker 1: Cards a lot do you guys watch House of Cards?

880
00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:05,560
Speaker 1: But one of the characters in House of Cards is

881
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:07,799
Speaker 1: this guy who's like kind of worked his way up

882
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:11,719
Speaker 1: a little bit to be Underwood's the main character's bodyguard,

883
00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:14,839
Speaker 1: and he knows a lot of stuff about Underwood that

884
00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:17,239
Speaker 1: he could easily be killed for. You know, I think

885
00:49:17,239 --> 00:49:20,080
Speaker 1: that that sort of thing does happen sometimes, that you

886
00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:24,040
Speaker 1: have access to the personal and professional life of somebody

887
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:29,600
Speaker 1: being their bodyguard, and if there's something maybe not totally

888
00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:33,560
Speaker 1: right going on, if that person is having a real

889
00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:37,439
Speaker 1: human experience, which happens a lot, you would know about

890
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:40,799
Speaker 1: it because you're there protecting them through that. And if you,

891
00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:43,600
Speaker 1: I don't know, for whatever reason, decided you were going

892
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:47,000
Speaker 1: to go public or somebody decided you knew too much,

893
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:51,319
Speaker 1: that would be a reason. But that that's completely contrary

894
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:54,880
Speaker 1: to Estruman's position. He was moving up the ranks. He

895
00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:59,560
Speaker 1: had been promoted, Yes, his promotion, well, his promotion had

896
00:49:59,560 --> 00:50:04,000
Speaker 1: been held for weeks or months, nine months, it was

897
00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:08,080
Speaker 1: nine months the promotion. And how recently had he been

898
00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:16,719
Speaker 1: promoted actually that day that he was He might not

899
00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:19,840
Speaker 1: that I necessarily believe this, but to play Devil's advocate

900
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:24,200
Speaker 1: for a second, he was promoted because he kept saying, listen,

901
00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:26,320
Speaker 1: I have this information and I'm going public with it

902
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:28,520
Speaker 1: if you guys did not promote me within this amount

903
00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:30,480
Speaker 1: of time. And finally they said, all right, fine, you

904
00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:34,799
Speaker 1: have the promotion, and then shot him because they knew

905
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:38,040
Speaker 1: he'd continue to use that as blackmail. Yeah, he'd continue

906
00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:40,200
Speaker 1: to use it. He would eventually go public. They didn't

907
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:43,319
Speaker 1: want to continue to rank him up. They were doing

908
00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:46,080
Speaker 1: that for a long time. He knew something, so they

909
00:50:46,080 --> 00:50:48,840
Speaker 1: shot him and it just happened that Tornado was a

910
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:53,279
Speaker 1: great patsy for whatever reason. Yeah, I can see the

911
00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:56,840
Speaker 1: lodging in that. I don't I don't believe that it

912
00:50:56,880 --> 00:50:59,640
Speaker 1: was an assassination gone wrong. It was something you know,

913
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:02,640
Speaker 1: there's there's all there are so many things, But I

914
00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:06,279
Speaker 1: think that it's it's not fair to right off the

915
00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:09,480
Speaker 1: fact that as someone's bodyguard, he could have known something,

916
00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:11,680
Speaker 1: and he could have been trying to leverage that into

917
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:14,080
Speaker 1: a higher rank. It could have. But the thing that

918
00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:16,440
Speaker 1: the thing about it is is that if the Church

919
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:20,399
Speaker 1: routinely has people killed, if that's a regular, regular thing,

920
00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:24,560
Speaker 1: if they're basically just like the mafia, but then, um,

921
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:26,560
Speaker 1: I would think that he would know better, even if

922
00:51:26,560 --> 00:51:28,560
Speaker 1: he did have some good blackmail goods, I would think

923
00:51:28,560 --> 00:51:30,879
Speaker 1: he'd know better than to try something like that. Well,

924
00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:35,239
Speaker 1: I I think that that theory doesn't hinge on the

925
00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:39,640
Speaker 1: Vatican routinely having people killed and again just every now,

926
00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:41,759
Speaker 1: and I mean you would kind of assume that most

927
00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:44,000
Speaker 1: people would just say, well, you know, the Pope is

928
00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:48,000
Speaker 1: my chosen leader from God. I'll do whatever it takes

929
00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:52,400
Speaker 1: to protect him. Their loyalty is stronger. Most people wouldn't

930
00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:55,280
Speaker 1: come forward with things, or most people don't know things

931
00:51:55,760 --> 00:51:58,960
Speaker 1: that really can incriminate. I don't know. I mean, well,

932
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:01,200
Speaker 1: people have made all sorts of all sorts of lurid

933
00:52:01,239 --> 00:52:05,000
Speaker 1: claims against the Pope Francis for example, Oh yeah, absolutely,

934
00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:08,080
Speaker 1: they participated in killings in South America and stuff like that.

935
00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:11,200
Speaker 1: I mean, hasn't really gone anywhere hasn't, and I'm sure

936
00:52:11,200 --> 00:52:13,880
Speaker 1: he hasn't. By the way, an aside to all of

937
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:16,480
Speaker 1: our Catholic listeners, if you're offended by any of this,

938
00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:20,920
Speaker 1: I really don't think the Vatican has people killed at all. Okay, yeah,

939
00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:24,799
Speaker 1: I don't. I really don't. This is but I'm the screwy.

940
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:29,000
Speaker 1: This screwy often the radar bit. Yeah, I guess I should.

941
00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:31,480
Speaker 1: I should also say that I I agree. I'm just

942
00:52:31,719 --> 00:52:34,680
Speaker 1: you know, playing that part of trying to say we

943
00:52:34,680 --> 00:52:37,239
Speaker 1: should cover all the bases. And I can see where

944
00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:41,400
Speaker 1: people have a fairly legitimate claim that this could have happened.

945
00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:50,480
Speaker 1: Do I think that's what ictually happened. Absolutely not. Yeah, Okay, Well,

946
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:53,680
Speaker 1: let's let's move on to our next series number three.

947
00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:57,759
Speaker 1: Uh Esterman, the head of the Swiss Guard, was caught

948
00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:01,200
Speaker 1: up in a struggle between Opus Day and Sonic factions

949
00:53:01,239 --> 00:53:03,640
Speaker 1: in the Vatican. Both of us were trying to get

950
00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:08,480
Speaker 1: control of the Swiss Guard. Was just a patsy. Okay again,

951
00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:11,120
Speaker 1: I actually cut and pasted that in all the theories,

952
00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:17,640
Speaker 1: but really I did. The plan was made by an

953
00:53:17,640 --> 00:53:20,960
Speaker 1: anonymous group of quote the Vatican clergy and laity who

954
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:24,960
Speaker 1: called themselves the quote the Disciples of Truth they had

955
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:27,200
Speaker 1: they published a book called Blood Lies in the Vatican,

956
00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:31,040
Speaker 1: which I could not find anywhere. Yeah, I desperately hunted

957
00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:32,759
Speaker 1: for that book because I found the first one. I

958
00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:35,680
Speaker 1: was like, I gotta get the completely opposing version. I

959
00:53:35,719 --> 00:53:37,719
Speaker 1: don't know if they even published that in English, it

960
00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:40,719
Speaker 1: was originally publishing the Yeah, I can't. I can't find it.

961
00:53:41,239 --> 00:53:42,880
Speaker 1: You know, it's it's kind of a hard one to

962
00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:46,080
Speaker 1: pick up. Yeah, Yeah, but they they claimed that Tornay

963
00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:48,799
Speaker 1: was taken to a seller and murdered while hitman were

964
00:53:48,840 --> 00:53:52,360
Speaker 1: wasting the instruments, and then and then the Tornado's body

965
00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:54,160
Speaker 1: was taken to the apartment and left there or with

966
00:53:54,239 --> 00:53:56,520
Speaker 1: his gun underneath. So it appeared that there was a

967
00:53:56,640 --> 00:54:01,040
Speaker 1: murder suicide. So these guys, these Disciples of claim to

968
00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:03,520
Speaker 1: have they appear to have detailed knowledge of the investigation

969
00:54:03,520 --> 00:54:05,560
Speaker 1: of the load. Of course, they could just be making

970
00:54:05,560 --> 00:54:09,480
Speaker 1: stuff up. They claimed that there were four used glasses

971
00:54:09,800 --> 00:54:15,080
Speaker 1: at the crime scene that subsequently disappeared and nobody's seen him. Sense,

972
00:54:15,120 --> 00:54:17,719
Speaker 1: along with the pictures taken by the first official photographer

973
00:54:17,760 --> 00:54:19,959
Speaker 1: to arrive in the scene, which we've already talked about.

974
00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:23,880
Speaker 1: The pictures all disappeared, which they may have been. I

975
00:54:23,920 --> 00:54:27,280
Speaker 1: don't think they've permanently disappeared. They're just kind of lost

976
00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:33,520
Speaker 1: somewhere in somewhere. And the Vatican archives, I imagine, are enormous.

977
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:37,000
Speaker 1: They're absolutely huge. Have you Have you ever heard about

978
00:54:37,000 --> 00:54:41,239
Speaker 1: the fact that the Vatican will let you find just

979
00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:43,439
Speaker 1: about whatever you want in their archives, but good luck

980
00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:47,160
Speaker 1: finding I know, you have to know exactly what you're

981
00:54:47,239 --> 00:54:51,080
Speaker 1: after and exactly where it should be. They don't let

982
00:54:51,120 --> 00:54:55,000
Speaker 1: you roam the staff. Of course, there's actually something I

983
00:54:55,080 --> 00:55:00,000
Speaker 1: have firsthand we're all secondhand knowledge of because my mom,

984
00:55:00,520 --> 00:55:04,560
Speaker 1: her father was born in Italy and of a Roman

985
00:55:04,600 --> 00:55:08,160
Speaker 1: Catholic family, and so they have records of all of

986
00:55:08,200 --> 00:55:11,880
Speaker 1: those birth things. I don't know why they just do anyways,

987
00:55:12,040 --> 00:55:14,759
Speaker 1: So she was pursuing her Italian citizenship and one of

988
00:55:14,760 --> 00:55:16,640
Speaker 1: the things that they said that she had to do

989
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:20,839
Speaker 1: was get proof from the Vatican. And so she had

990
00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:23,400
Speaker 1: to submit her quest and say, I think it's this

991
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:25,560
Speaker 1: these dates, this is when you know it was written

992
00:55:25,600 --> 00:55:27,799
Speaker 1: down in the Bible as this date. We we don't

993
00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:29,880
Speaker 1: actually know exactly when it was. Between this and the

994
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:31,600
Speaker 1: state and the Vatican came back and was like that's

995
00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:36,360
Speaker 1: not specific enough. Now you need to know the date

996
00:55:36,719 --> 00:55:45,120
Speaker 1: author system you all. Yeah, these these people, the Disciples

997
00:55:45,120 --> 00:55:49,279
Speaker 1: of Truth, also claimed that Colonel Esterman his wife his wife,

998
00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:51,480
Speaker 1: by the way, I worked at the Venezuelan Embassy to

999
00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:54,920
Speaker 1: the Holy See. Yeah. That they claim that they were

1000
00:55:54,920 --> 00:55:59,040
Speaker 1: actively engaged in secret international financial deals for the benefit

1001
00:55:59,120 --> 00:56:01,839
Speaker 1: of Opus Day. This is what they claims. They also

1002
00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:05,040
Speaker 1: claim that no one heard the shots, that that Nune

1003
00:56:05,120 --> 00:56:09,600
Speaker 1: did appear to hear something. The Estermans lived, they were

1004
00:56:09,640 --> 00:56:14,080
Speaker 1: like apartments, right. Yeah, so there's pretty much no way

1005
00:56:14,440 --> 00:56:18,000
Speaker 1: in my book, pretty much no way that nobody heard that. Yeah,

1006
00:56:18,560 --> 00:56:22,319
Speaker 1: none reported hearing a loud noise, which a gun shot

1007
00:56:22,440 --> 00:56:26,480
Speaker 1: would be. It's not five loud noises. She was that

1008
00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:30,320
Speaker 1: kind of elderly. She wasn't an elderly lady. Your hearing

1009
00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:33,520
Speaker 1: may not have been the best, but she didn't say

1010
00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:36,040
Speaker 1: she heard five things at row. She just heard a noise, yeah,

1011
00:56:36,200 --> 00:56:38,040
Speaker 1: and that's when she went to go check, because it

1012
00:56:38,120 --> 00:56:42,520
Speaker 1: was unusual for those neighbors to have make a bunch

1013
00:56:42,560 --> 00:56:46,680
Speaker 1: of noise. Yeah, very quiet. So who knows, or maybe

1014
00:56:46,680 --> 00:56:49,560
Speaker 1: they use silence sers. The only did their did their

1015
00:56:49,560 --> 00:56:55,279
Speaker 1: little assassination thing. Can we talk about that a little bit. Well, no,

1016
00:56:55,520 --> 00:56:57,560
Speaker 1: just just some of the stuff that that I know

1017
00:56:58,080 --> 00:57:00,640
Speaker 1: you talked about some of this earlier when we were

1018
00:57:00,680 --> 00:57:03,600
Speaker 1: looking at the some of the autopsy stuff and these

1019
00:57:03,880 --> 00:57:06,799
Speaker 1: things from his mom, and I know you and I

1020
00:57:06,880 --> 00:57:10,879
Speaker 1: talked about this before. I didn't what's going on? Okay?

1021
00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:17,480
Speaker 1: So first off, Cedric when he shot himself, he kneeled down,

1022
00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:21,600
Speaker 1: so he was on his knees, and it appears from

1023
00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:24,400
Speaker 1: the descriptions I've got that he put his head forward

1024
00:57:24,440 --> 00:57:27,800
Speaker 1: as if he was in prayer and he shot himself

1025
00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:33,160
Speaker 1: through the mouth. To do that, that's like, okay, okay,

1026
00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:35,520
Speaker 1: So you can't, you know, think about you have your

1027
00:57:35,560 --> 00:57:37,160
Speaker 1: your hand out with a gun in it, you put

1028
00:57:37,160 --> 00:57:39,480
Speaker 1: your thumb up and your your point your finger forward.

1029
00:57:40,160 --> 00:57:44,400
Speaker 1: You can't then pull that up because that's very difficult

1030
00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:47,760
Speaker 1: to pull the trigger. It's really tough. So it won't

1031
00:57:47,760 --> 00:57:50,360
Speaker 1: go through the top of your skull. It's gonna go

1032
00:57:50,480 --> 00:57:53,520
Speaker 1: out the back of your neck or your head when

1033
00:57:53,560 --> 00:57:55,920
Speaker 1: your head has bent forward and you're into your chest.

1034
00:57:56,720 --> 00:57:59,360
Speaker 1: And a lot of the reports like and there was

1035
00:57:59,440 --> 00:58:02,320
Speaker 1: this funny shaped hole or small hole in his skull.

1036
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:05,160
Speaker 1: The things that I've read the bullet didn't go through

1037
00:58:05,200 --> 00:58:08,160
Speaker 1: his skull. The bullet went out the back of his neck.

1038
00:58:08,240 --> 00:58:10,919
Speaker 1: It went through his spin, out the back of his mouth,

1039
00:58:11,480 --> 00:58:15,760
Speaker 1: through his spine, and into the ceiling where it hits

1040
00:58:15,840 --> 00:58:20,000
Speaker 1: the ceiling, broke stuff loose, and then bounced around. So,

1041
00:58:20,120 --> 00:58:23,720
Speaker 1: but that's seven millimeter gun right now, do you really know?

1042
00:58:23,840 --> 00:58:27,080
Speaker 1: I'm glad you don't, because it's really in your fingers

1043
00:58:28,920 --> 00:58:31,360
Speaker 1: because the finger right like if you just do the

1044
00:58:31,440 --> 00:58:34,840
Speaker 1: like bang bang finger, like the heel of your hand

1045
00:58:35,120 --> 00:58:39,360
Speaker 1: is pointing away from you, like exactly, but so like

1046
00:58:39,440 --> 00:58:42,400
Speaker 1: I have a trigger right here. Yeah, the heel of

1047
00:58:42,480 --> 00:58:44,560
Speaker 1: your hand is pointing away. That's the only way that

1048
00:58:44,600 --> 00:58:48,120
Speaker 1: it's physical. But that also means that the gun is

1049
00:58:48,120 --> 00:58:49,920
Speaker 1: pointing at the back of your neck. You can't you

1050
00:58:49,960 --> 00:58:53,000
Speaker 1: can't turn it over and have the thumbs because the

1051
00:58:53,000 --> 00:58:56,120
Speaker 1: pistol grip would be in your chest. It's like it's

1052
00:58:56,120 --> 00:59:00,560
Speaker 1: still it's it's really implausible that the way that it's

1053
00:59:00,600 --> 00:59:04,600
Speaker 1: described that the slide broke his teeth. I've seen that

1054
00:59:04,680 --> 00:59:07,520
Speaker 1: listed in other places that at that point, right, that's

1055
00:59:07,520 --> 00:59:09,880
Speaker 1: when you got it. You mean the gun being forced

1056
00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:14,440
Speaker 1: into his mouth, wellpped it back and then pulled the triggers,

1057
00:59:14,760 --> 00:59:17,640
Speaker 1: pulled the trigger, the slide ran. I've seen reports to

1058
00:59:17,680 --> 00:59:21,320
Speaker 1: say whether when the action hit and the slide of

1059
00:59:21,320 --> 00:59:24,320
Speaker 1: the gun moved to eject the bullet, that it was

1060
00:59:24,480 --> 00:59:27,480
Speaker 1: that motion that broke his teeth. That's what I was thinking.

1061
00:59:27,560 --> 00:59:30,000
Speaker 1: But in order to have the gun in his mouth,

1062
00:59:30,680 --> 00:59:35,760
Speaker 1: he would have to have essentially upside down. Well, he

1063
00:59:35,840 --> 00:59:37,520
Speaker 1: said his front teeth were broken. I don't know if

1064
00:59:37,560 --> 00:59:40,120
Speaker 1: they meant his top front teeth or his bottom front teeth.

1065
00:59:41,200 --> 00:59:43,000
Speaker 1: I don't see how you can fire off again in

1066
00:59:43,040 --> 00:59:47,600
Speaker 1: your mouth. And that's because you guys have both fired guns, right, yes, yes,

1067
00:59:47,640 --> 00:59:50,640
Speaker 1: some automatic guns. The slide racks back so quickly, and

1068
00:59:50,760 --> 00:59:52,880
Speaker 1: to have a piece of steel, it racks back so

1069
00:59:52,960 --> 00:59:55,760
Speaker 1: quickly you can't even see it. Yeah, yeah, it's that fast.

1070
00:59:56,280 --> 00:59:58,840
Speaker 1: And so the front, the front side is going to

1071
00:59:58,880 --> 01:00:02,400
Speaker 1: catch your teeth and bust them off. If okay, if

1072
01:00:02,480 --> 01:00:06,400
Speaker 1: I am putting a gun in your mouth, you're absolutely right.

1073
01:00:07,120 --> 01:00:09,080
Speaker 1: But to put a gun in your own mouth, you

1074
01:00:09,120 --> 01:00:10,920
Speaker 1: have to have the gun ups right now. We don't

1075
01:00:10,920 --> 01:00:16,160
Speaker 1: have to, ye, if he's in the kneeling, head forward position,

1076
01:00:16,480 --> 01:00:21,520
Speaker 1: he does. No, you don't, am I conceptualizing this wrong.

1077
01:00:21,560 --> 01:00:23,760
Speaker 1: I feel like Joe, you can turn it around. I

1078
01:00:24,040 --> 01:00:26,600
Speaker 1: can do it either way. I think most likely what

1079
01:00:26,640 --> 01:00:28,560
Speaker 1: you're going to do with the gun will be upside

1080
01:00:28,560 --> 01:00:32,080
Speaker 1: down in your mouth. But it's possible to nail your

1081
01:00:32,160 --> 01:00:36,000
Speaker 1: head down the butt like right here in your chests.

1082
01:00:37,000 --> 01:00:41,160
Speaker 1: It's possible. But a guy who uses a gun all

1083
01:00:41,160 --> 01:00:43,080
Speaker 1: the time isn't gonna pulp the trigger with his thumb.

1084
01:00:43,360 --> 01:00:47,000
Speaker 1: But my point is we're way off of where that are. Initially,

1085
01:00:47,240 --> 01:00:49,600
Speaker 1: I didn't want to mention that the broken teeth though,

1086
01:00:49,640 --> 01:00:52,240
Speaker 1: and that and that is the gun's front side totally

1087
01:00:52,280 --> 01:00:54,240
Speaker 1: could have pulled out. It could have not, it could

1088
01:00:54,280 --> 01:00:56,080
Speaker 1: have not got his bottom teeth, or it could have

1089
01:00:56,120 --> 01:00:59,840
Speaker 1: been the recoil popped out his top front teeth. Yeah,

1090
01:01:00,160 --> 01:01:02,640
Speaker 1: either way. But what I'm getting at is that he

1091
01:01:02,680 --> 01:01:05,600
Speaker 1: didn't shoot himself through the top of the skull. Yeah. No.

1092
01:01:05,760 --> 01:01:07,880
Speaker 1: And that's why the accudental wound was not was seven

1093
01:01:07,920 --> 01:01:10,360
Speaker 1: millimeters versus nine, because it were not the back of

1094
01:01:10,400 --> 01:01:14,920
Speaker 1: his neck, which is all muscle in skin, and under pressure,

1095
01:01:15,440 --> 01:01:18,200
Speaker 1: those things are going to expand to the nine millimeter

1096
01:01:18,360 --> 01:01:23,320
Speaker 1: and then they're gonna because they're elastic, exactly into position.

1097
01:01:24,200 --> 01:01:26,200
Speaker 1: That's so that's the one thing I want to talk

1098
01:01:26,240 --> 01:01:30,120
Speaker 1: about when the the autopsy reports, and it couldn't have

1099
01:01:30,160 --> 01:01:32,160
Speaker 1: been this, and someone else had to do it. It

1100
01:01:32,200 --> 01:01:34,480
Speaker 1: was a different caliber gun. I don't know. I guess

1101
01:01:34,520 --> 01:01:37,640
Speaker 1: I generally assumed that I don't know. I would have

1102
01:01:37,680 --> 01:01:41,280
Speaker 1: assumed this may be a false assumption, but I would

1103
01:01:41,320 --> 01:01:46,160
Speaker 1: assume that the corners that were hired later would have

1104
01:01:46,200 --> 01:01:50,240
Speaker 1: been made aware of his position and would have factored

1105
01:01:50,280 --> 01:01:52,960
Speaker 1: that in. They weren't made aware of any position, though

1106
01:01:53,000 --> 01:01:58,760
Speaker 1: they weren't given any details. He kneeled, He kneeled down.

1107
01:01:58,840 --> 01:02:02,760
Speaker 1: Part that speculation on the part of the Vatican that

1108
01:02:02,840 --> 01:02:05,360
Speaker 1: we have all then jumped on board with and we're

1109
01:02:05,440 --> 01:02:08,760
Speaker 1: running with right now, right so so exactly so it

1110
01:02:08,800 --> 01:02:12,280
Speaker 1: could have been a seven millimeter exit wound, that what

1111
01:02:12,440 --> 01:02:16,680
Speaker 1: came from a seven millionaire bullet because he wasn't knelt down, right,

1112
01:02:17,080 --> 01:02:19,920
Speaker 1: it's possible. The other thing is that there's the blood

1113
01:02:19,920 --> 01:02:24,160
Speaker 1: in the mucus in his lungs. Okay, if you shoot

1114
01:02:24,200 --> 01:02:29,400
Speaker 1: yourself through the neck, you don't die immediately, So it's

1115
01:02:29,760 --> 01:02:35,440
Speaker 1: entirely possible that he lay there alive for I don't know,

1116
01:02:35,680 --> 01:02:45,160
Speaker 1: ten minutes bleeding, which would have gone entirely possible. Do

1117
01:02:45,200 --> 01:02:48,880
Speaker 1: you go back to the people who try to commit suicide,

1118
01:02:49,040 --> 01:02:52,320
Speaker 1: the like brain reaction of O crop, I don't want

1119
01:02:52,320 --> 01:02:54,919
Speaker 1: to do this. The fact that you would like lay

1120
01:02:54,960 --> 01:02:59,040
Speaker 1: there seems unlikely. You would probably crawl try to like

1121
01:02:59,160 --> 01:03:03,480
Speaker 1: get to something. Well, he probably exact probably not able

1122
01:03:03,520 --> 01:03:05,240
Speaker 1: to do anything. But then he wouldn't have been able

1123
01:03:05,280 --> 01:03:08,200
Speaker 1: to swallow. It would have been drooling out. It would

1124
01:03:08,200 --> 01:03:11,680
Speaker 1: have run down his throat though depending on exactly how Yeah,

1125
01:03:11,800 --> 01:03:14,160
Speaker 1: it could have just been running down his throat, And

1126
01:03:15,480 --> 01:03:17,520
Speaker 1: I don't know from first aid is that, like you

1127
01:03:17,560 --> 01:03:21,720
Speaker 1: have to put people in really specific positions for recovery.

1128
01:03:22,160 --> 01:03:25,200
Speaker 1: To open up the esophagus and to open all of

1129
01:03:25,320 --> 01:03:29,160
Speaker 1: the lung and whatever track whatever, you have to put

1130
01:03:29,200 --> 01:03:32,720
Speaker 1: people in really specific positions. So, yes, it is possible

1131
01:03:32,840 --> 01:03:36,840
Speaker 1: that he fell into, luckily exactly the right position so

1132
01:03:36,880 --> 01:03:39,680
Speaker 1: that that all went down into his lungs. But it's

1133
01:03:39,680 --> 01:03:42,800
Speaker 1: also possible that that didn't happen and something else happened.

1134
01:03:43,480 --> 01:03:45,040
Speaker 1: But yeah, no, I think that that's a it's a

1135
01:03:45,120 --> 01:03:48,280
Speaker 1: good thing to bring up, yes, because people get on

1136
01:03:48,320 --> 01:03:50,520
Speaker 1: the drum and they start beating the drum. It's the

1137
01:03:50,560 --> 01:03:53,200
Speaker 1: conspiracy he was killed earlier. That's why I want to

1138
01:03:53,200 --> 01:03:57,000
Speaker 1: bring these things and that went way farther. And I

1139
01:03:57,040 --> 01:04:01,240
Speaker 1: don't think we've ever had this much hand evening in

1140
01:04:00,440 --> 01:04:06,400
Speaker 1: the in the studio before an Italian story. I know,

1141
01:04:06,480 --> 01:04:10,720
Speaker 1: we're all sticking our fingers in our before we wrap

1142
01:04:10,800 --> 01:04:13,640
Speaker 1: up theory number three after that little link and run

1143
01:04:13,680 --> 01:04:16,959
Speaker 1: to the weeds there um and then again we're talking

1144
01:04:17,000 --> 01:04:22,200
Speaker 1: about the whole struggle between Opus Day and the Masonic factor. Masons.

1145
01:04:22,600 --> 01:04:25,960
Speaker 1: The Masons, well, excuse me. That's why I don't believe

1146
01:04:26,000 --> 01:04:32,360
Speaker 1: this one at all, Because there's Mason's in the Vatican. No, no,

1147
01:04:32,440 --> 01:04:35,520
Speaker 1: I mean yeah, I mean it's it's actually you can

1148
01:04:35,560 --> 01:04:38,600
Speaker 1: be excommunicated if you're for being a member of the Masons,

1149
01:04:39,160 --> 01:04:42,240
Speaker 1: of the Freemason's if you're a Catholic. I mean, the

1150
01:04:42,480 --> 01:04:46,000
Speaker 1: idea that there's Masonic factions in the Vatican, it's just ludicrous.

1151
01:04:47,840 --> 01:04:52,600
Speaker 1: They're Christian. Well, I don't think they're Catholic. They're anti

1152
01:04:52,640 --> 01:04:55,600
Speaker 1: Catholic and in their original in their original form. And

1153
01:04:55,600 --> 01:04:58,480
Speaker 1: I think that you know, your average Mason today, I

1154
01:04:58,520 --> 01:05:01,800
Speaker 1: don't know how many are left act sort of yeah.

1155
01:05:01,840 --> 01:05:04,800
Speaker 1: I think they're they've become more secularized and and all

1156
01:05:04,840 --> 01:05:07,120
Speaker 1: that stuff. They're not as anti cat like the original

1157
01:05:07,160 --> 01:05:09,520
Speaker 1: Mason's way back in the day, we used to be

1158
01:05:09,680 --> 01:05:12,280
Speaker 1: anti Catholic and they were actually committed to the destruction

1159
01:05:12,320 --> 01:05:17,360
Speaker 1: of the Catholic Church. And so so it's actually really

1160
01:05:17,360 --> 01:05:19,640
Speaker 1: against the rules if you're a Catholic to be a Mason,

1161
01:05:20,320 --> 01:05:22,440
Speaker 1: And it really doesn't make any sense either. It's completely

1162
01:05:22,520 --> 01:05:26,560
Speaker 1: contrary to the Catholic doctrine because the Mason's believed that

1163
01:05:26,600 --> 01:05:30,320
Speaker 1: basically doesn't really matter what religion you are as long

1164
01:05:30,360 --> 01:05:32,640
Speaker 1: as you as long as you behave well, then that's

1165
01:05:32,640 --> 01:05:35,520
Speaker 1: all that matters. Would this would this be equivalent to

1166
01:05:35,720 --> 01:05:37,320
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to put this in a kind of

1167
01:05:37,360 --> 01:05:40,480
Speaker 1: a different light or a different analogy. Would this be

1168
01:05:41,240 --> 01:05:46,400
Speaker 1: the same as saying, somebody who is really into Communism

1169
01:05:46,680 --> 01:05:50,000
Speaker 1: is running for office in our country as a as

1170
01:05:50,040 --> 01:05:52,760
Speaker 1: a running and say a Democrat. Would that be the

1171
01:05:52,840 --> 01:05:56,520
Speaker 1: same thing where they're there their personal views according to

1172
01:05:56,560 --> 01:06:00,160
Speaker 1: what we know, would be so a hunted eight de

1173
01:06:00,200 --> 01:06:03,480
Speaker 1: grieve from what they're moving towards. Like I'm trying to

1174
01:06:03,520 --> 01:06:05,800
Speaker 1: figure out exactly how this works, I think it would

1175
01:06:05,800 --> 01:06:07,800
Speaker 1: be more like I don't I don't think that the

1176
01:06:07,800 --> 01:06:10,920
Speaker 1: Communists and the Democrats are completely incongruous, but it being

1177
01:06:10,960 --> 01:06:14,840
Speaker 1: more like a communist running as a Republican. What they

1178
01:06:14,840 --> 01:06:22,000
Speaker 1: say is that Masonry runs parallel to Catholicism, right, and

1179
01:06:22,080 --> 01:06:28,560
Speaker 1: that they they will never intersect. They will never yeah,

1180
01:06:28,680 --> 01:06:33,320
Speaker 1: pretty much, because I think that the belief of masonry,

1181
01:06:33,400 --> 01:06:35,280
Speaker 1: and I'm sure we'll do an episode on this at

1182
01:06:35,320 --> 01:06:38,280
Speaker 1: some point, but the belief of masonry or freemasonry or

1183
01:06:38,320 --> 01:06:41,640
Speaker 1: whatever is that one can be pleasing to God or

1184
01:06:41,760 --> 01:06:48,640
Speaker 1: whatever you may believe in any spiritual tradition. Essentially, it

1185
01:06:48,760 --> 01:06:50,560
Speaker 1: is not required that you are a Christian, that you

1186
01:06:50,600 --> 01:06:52,840
Speaker 1: believe in Christ, that you're a Catholic, that you follow

1187
01:06:52,920 --> 01:06:56,120
Speaker 1: these rules to be pleasing to God. And that is

1188
01:06:56,800 --> 01:07:00,720
Speaker 1: superno okay with Catholic now in most churches to that way. Really,

1189
01:07:00,760 --> 01:07:03,000
Speaker 1: what the Catholic Church especially is this is the one

1190
01:07:03,040 --> 01:07:07,320
Speaker 1: true face, you know, and so it's a total contradiction

1191
01:07:07,320 --> 01:07:10,280
Speaker 1: in terms to be a Catholic in a Mason. Okay, see, yeah,

1192
01:07:10,520 --> 01:07:13,120
Speaker 1: I don't get but we've had this conversation before, Like

1193
01:07:13,560 --> 01:07:16,680
Speaker 1: I just never get religion. I think you just I

1194
01:07:16,720 --> 01:07:18,880
Speaker 1: think that you don't not get it. I think you

1195
01:07:19,040 --> 01:07:22,760
Speaker 1: just zone out. It's just white noise. I don't know,

1196
01:07:22,920 --> 01:07:25,640
Speaker 1: like I can never get the theology and therefore follow

1197
01:07:25,680 --> 01:07:28,200
Speaker 1: walls and trains of thought. Let's let's move forward. So

1198
01:07:28,400 --> 01:07:30,560
Speaker 1: I know you've got more, so that's why just a

1199
01:07:30,960 --> 01:07:34,520
Speaker 1: one or two more. But yeah, anyway, so Masonics, Masonic

1200
01:07:34,600 --> 01:07:39,800
Speaker 1: factions versus Okay, next series number four. Asterman was a

1201
01:07:39,840 --> 01:07:44,080
Speaker 1: spy for East German intelligence in the nineteen eighties the

1202
01:07:44,240 --> 01:07:47,760
Speaker 1: Famus stash. The Vatican found out and had him killed.

1203
01:07:48,400 --> 01:07:54,320
Speaker 1: Tornado was just a Patsy coffee. Yeah. I think it's

1204
01:07:54,520 --> 01:07:58,000
Speaker 1: like Vergin on plagiarism. At this point, you have plagiarizing myself. Yeah,

1205
01:07:58,120 --> 01:08:00,520
Speaker 1: this is uh, this is actually from a called the

1206
01:08:00,560 --> 01:08:03,160
Speaker 1: secret Ation of the Vatican by a journalist name Victor.

1207
01:08:03,760 --> 01:08:08,840
Speaker 1: Victor Guitard we taught. Yeah, I'm soon trying to pronounce

1208
01:08:08,840 --> 01:08:16,000
Speaker 1: these damn names. People get names like John American names. Yeah, American. Anyway,

1209
01:08:16,160 --> 01:08:19,880
Speaker 1: thanks for you know, alienating Oliver overseas list your YouTube.

1210
01:08:20,640 --> 01:08:26,120
Speaker 1: I'm sorry we can't pronounce anything like Lester. Yeah. Yeah,

1211
01:08:26,400 --> 01:08:28,320
Speaker 1: so this is this is something I was not able

1212
01:08:28,360 --> 01:08:33,240
Speaker 1: to actually find any real I couldn't really validate this one. Uh. Supposedly,

1213
01:08:34,320 --> 01:08:38,639
Speaker 1: the former directors of Stacy, Marcus Wolfe, said that something

1214
01:08:38,720 --> 01:08:40,639
Speaker 1: that he had been the estimate, had been a spy

1215
01:08:40,680 --> 01:08:43,320
Speaker 1: for them since nineteen seventy nine. But I can't find

1216
01:08:43,320 --> 01:08:46,080
Speaker 1: any actual documentation. Were you guys able to find any,

1217
01:08:46,800 --> 01:08:49,760
Speaker 1: did you? Okay? She was pointing to a book. I'm

1218
01:08:49,800 --> 01:08:52,439
Speaker 1: pointing back to the same book because I love my

1219
01:08:52,520 --> 01:08:57,519
Speaker 1: local library and that's where I got this book. Uh. Yeah, No.

1220
01:08:57,720 --> 01:09:03,840
Speaker 1: So the humber that the Stasi had a mole in

1221
01:09:03,880 --> 01:09:08,320
Speaker 1: the Vatican to have had they would have loved to

1222
01:09:08,360 --> 01:09:12,360
Speaker 1: have had quite likely. But and I don't I didn't

1223
01:09:12,439 --> 01:09:15,360
Speaker 1: think to bookmark the page that talks about this, so

1224
01:09:15,400 --> 01:09:18,839
Speaker 1: I can't give you the code name of that agent.

1225
01:09:19,280 --> 01:09:21,479
Speaker 1: But they but everybody said, well that agent was in

1226
01:09:21,520 --> 01:09:26,280
Speaker 1: the Vatican, except that agent wasn't in the Vatican. And

1227
01:09:26,560 --> 01:09:30,960
Speaker 1: the group that that this so called mole was as

1228
01:09:31,040 --> 01:09:37,360
Speaker 1: filiated with, they looked at internal issues in East Germany.

1229
01:09:37,640 --> 01:09:41,719
Speaker 1: They I believe it was East Germany. They couldn't look

1230
01:09:41,760 --> 01:09:44,760
Speaker 1: at places like the Vatican because they weren't allowed to

1231
01:09:44,880 --> 01:09:49,679
Speaker 1: look at those places. So that one, really, I think,

1232
01:09:49,800 --> 01:09:51,920
Speaker 1: is one has just been spun up and spun up

1233
01:09:51,920 --> 01:09:55,320
Speaker 1: and spun up, maybe by the author of said book

1234
01:09:55,360 --> 01:09:58,879
Speaker 1: that you have mentioned there. I don't know, but everything

1235
01:09:58,920 --> 01:10:01,519
Speaker 1: that I've I've seen, especially in most of it that

1236
01:10:01,640 --> 01:10:09,200
Speaker 1: seemed concrete came from uh flane, but it seems yeah, probably, Yeah.

1237
01:10:09,240 --> 01:10:12,400
Speaker 1: There's there's even a sub like a like a little

1238
01:10:12,439 --> 01:10:14,280
Speaker 1: branch off of this one, which is not that he

1239
01:10:14,320 --> 01:10:17,240
Speaker 1: was not just a spy, but he also participated actually

1240
01:10:17,720 --> 01:10:20,320
Speaker 1: in the assassination attempt at nineteen one of John Paul

1241
01:10:20,360 --> 01:10:23,400
Speaker 1: the second, which was run by essentially, I mean, there

1242
01:10:23,400 --> 01:10:25,240
Speaker 1: were a lot of fingers in that particular pie, but

1243
01:10:25,320 --> 01:10:28,040
Speaker 1: essentially it was mostly run by Bulgarian intelligence from what

1244
01:10:28,080 --> 01:10:34,000
Speaker 1: I've heard, and so, yeah, and so here if he

1245
01:10:34,040 --> 01:10:35,880
Speaker 1: was an agent of the Stace, and of course these

1246
01:10:35,880 --> 01:10:38,439
Speaker 1: guys were all these guys are all cooperating, then they

1247
01:10:38,439 --> 01:10:42,679
Speaker 1: could have very well gotten information about Jean Paul's movements

1248
01:10:42,880 --> 01:10:45,640
Speaker 1: or maybe gotten him to just like, you know, like

1249
01:10:46,000 --> 01:10:49,080
Speaker 1: step aside for a moment or two, a little bit,

1250
01:10:49,200 --> 01:10:52,040
Speaker 1: and you know, but there's again, I find no no

1251
01:10:52,160 --> 01:10:54,400
Speaker 1: credible evidence for this at all. You know the worst

1252
01:10:54,400 --> 01:10:58,280
Speaker 1: part about the the assassination attempt on the pope in

1253
01:10:58,360 --> 01:11:01,200
Speaker 1: eight one, Yeah, do you know the Swiss guard we're

1254
01:11:01,240 --> 01:11:04,599
Speaker 1: supposed to do when they were following the car, watch

1255
01:11:04,680 --> 01:11:08,479
Speaker 1: the pope, watch the Yeah, they didn't look at the crowd,

1256
01:11:08,720 --> 01:11:11,960
Speaker 1: they didn't look for danger. They didn't they weren't looking around.

1257
01:11:12,360 --> 01:11:15,640
Speaker 1: Their job was to be there and stare at the

1258
01:11:15,640 --> 01:11:17,760
Speaker 1: Pope the whole time. Maybe you think that maybe one

1259
01:11:17,800 --> 01:11:21,120
Speaker 1: guy could be assigned to stare at the pope the

1260
01:11:21,160 --> 01:11:25,080
Speaker 1: rest of them. There's crowds of people staring at the pub.

1261
01:11:25,160 --> 01:11:28,519
Speaker 1: Come on, let's up stair at the pole by him

1262
01:11:28,520 --> 01:11:33,080
Speaker 1: a popemobile. Actually, well, yeah, obviously we know that eventually happened. Yeah,

1263
01:11:33,080 --> 01:11:35,719
Speaker 1: it's got a cool pubmobill. Yeah that he's no longer

1264
01:11:35,720 --> 01:11:39,519
Speaker 1: in use. Just said I thought the popmobill was awesome.

1265
01:11:39,600 --> 01:11:41,400
Speaker 1: I'd drive it everywhere. I would love to have a

1266
01:11:41,439 --> 01:11:43,920
Speaker 1: pop I would drive it. Joe would be standing up

1267
01:11:43,920 --> 01:11:49,559
Speaker 1: in the little box everybody where. I'm the Swiss Guard apparently. Yeah, yeah,

1268
01:11:49,600 --> 01:11:52,880
Speaker 1: you walked next to the car. Great. Yeah, any other theories,

1269
01:11:53,280 --> 01:11:56,639
Speaker 1: promobile looks like it's hot. Any other thing. I've got

1270
01:11:56,680 --> 01:11:58,920
Speaker 1: only one more theory, only one more theory, and its

1271
01:11:59,560 --> 01:12:03,760
Speaker 1: last theory number five. Five. Yeah, number five. It was

1272
01:12:03,840 --> 01:12:09,479
Speaker 1: a love triangle, I know, I know, with him and sorry,

1273
01:12:09,479 --> 01:12:15,080
Speaker 1: with Tornay and Easterman and Esterman. Yeah, apparently, maybe things

1274
01:12:15,120 --> 01:12:18,280
Speaker 1: weren't always so bad between those two. There's there's a

1275
01:12:18,360 --> 01:12:24,200
Speaker 1: rumor out there that Tornay was bisexual, and there were

1276
01:12:24,240 --> 01:12:28,559
Speaker 1: also rumors that Esterman was also bisexual, and they had

1277
01:12:29,760 --> 01:12:32,400
Speaker 1: you know, I've I've heard anywhere from a two years

1278
01:12:32,840 --> 01:12:36,920
Speaker 1: year love affair to just a little fling. But that

1279
01:12:37,080 --> 01:12:42,360
Speaker 1: apparently Esterman sort of threw Tornay over for another guy

1280
01:12:42,720 --> 01:12:50,160
Speaker 1: and or a lady or his wife. And actually, I

1281
01:12:50,560 --> 01:12:52,559
Speaker 1: hate to be putting theories like this out. These guys

1282
01:12:52,560 --> 01:12:54,600
Speaker 1: are dead, you know, they can't speak for themselves or

1283
01:12:54,600 --> 01:12:58,479
Speaker 1: anything like that, but they but they were also Catholic.

1284
01:12:58,520 --> 01:13:00,920
Speaker 1: I mean so that you know, the church by and

1285
01:13:01,000 --> 01:13:04,439
Speaker 1: large is particularly at this time. These days it's a

1286
01:13:04,439 --> 01:13:08,360
Speaker 1: little more accepting, but at this time, to be gay

1287
01:13:08,439 --> 01:13:12,720
Speaker 1: and a Catholic was just like one of the largest sins. Actually, no,

1288
01:13:12,800 --> 01:13:15,479
Speaker 1: it's okay to be again a Catholic. You just no, no,

1289
01:13:15,840 --> 01:13:18,080
Speaker 1: even then it was okay, can't act on it, you

1290
01:13:18,160 --> 01:13:23,400
Speaker 1: just can't act. Okay to be gay actively, you know whatever,

1291
01:13:23,560 --> 01:13:27,320
Speaker 1: to actual to actually act on your impulses. That was

1292
01:13:27,479 --> 01:13:29,880
Speaker 1: the sin. And if you if you're part of the

1293
01:13:29,920 --> 01:13:32,680
Speaker 1: Swiss Guard, right, you're part of the elite of the

1294
01:13:32,760 --> 01:13:37,639
Speaker 1: Catholic Church. It's a huge scandal, You wouldn't necessarily this

1295
01:13:38,160 --> 01:13:40,639
Speaker 1: might this you know, if this actually were true, then

1296
01:13:40,680 --> 01:13:43,559
Speaker 1: you would think that the sooner or later that they

1297
01:13:43,560 --> 01:13:45,880
Speaker 1: would have found out about it in the Vatican, and

1298
01:13:45,960 --> 01:13:48,599
Speaker 1: that might account for a little bit of the lack

1299
01:13:48,680 --> 01:13:53,000
Speaker 1: of transparency. They don't want they don't want to tell

1300
01:13:53,040 --> 01:13:55,879
Speaker 1: the whole story. You know. I've read all these accounts

1301
01:13:55,880 --> 01:13:57,599
Speaker 1: as well, and I'm going to take the same approach

1302
01:13:57,640 --> 01:14:00,800
Speaker 1: as Joe, which is I feel really bad for bad

1303
01:14:00,880 --> 01:14:03,400
Speaker 1: mouthing these guys and saying these things about them that

1304
01:14:03,439 --> 01:14:08,519
Speaker 1: we can't substantiated. But the hard part is there are

1305
01:14:08,800 --> 01:14:12,120
Speaker 1: all of the stories that I think everybody has heard

1306
01:14:12,200 --> 01:14:17,240
Speaker 1: of of gay priests and all the things I mean,

1307
01:14:17,240 --> 01:14:20,479
Speaker 1: there's stories of lack of a better term, sex parties

1308
01:14:20,920 --> 01:14:24,240
Speaker 1: and Novatican. No, none of this is substantiated, but you

1309
01:14:24,360 --> 01:14:27,840
Speaker 1: hear these stories. So it's like, I don't believe that. Well,

1310
01:14:28,360 --> 01:14:30,920
Speaker 1: I've heard it enough times. Maybe now I don't glad

1311
01:14:30,920 --> 01:14:33,640
Speaker 1: to believe it. Like I'm really torn on that, Like

1312
01:14:33,680 --> 01:14:38,000
Speaker 1: I I don't believe it ones engaged, one is married.

1313
01:14:38,080 --> 01:14:41,040
Speaker 1: You'd think that that would, you know, would stop it.

1314
01:14:41,160 --> 01:14:43,280
Speaker 1: But then again, it's a lot of people that have

1315
01:14:44,160 --> 01:14:47,599
Speaker 1: put on the airs and hidden it for ages and ages.

1316
01:14:48,800 --> 01:14:51,080
Speaker 1: I don't want to stand on that. No, it's it's

1317
01:14:51,080 --> 01:14:53,320
Speaker 1: hard to say. I don't think the proof is exactly

1318
01:14:53,360 --> 01:14:56,479
Speaker 1: conclusive for this particular one. So I don't know it's

1319
01:14:56,520 --> 01:15:00,240
Speaker 1: time to flip a coin. Huh. Yeah, which I which

1320
01:15:00,240 --> 01:15:03,400
Speaker 1: there you guys like him, I don't know. I don't

1321
01:15:03,439 --> 01:15:06,880
Speaker 1: necessarily like any of them. Yeah, I mean, I think

1322
01:15:09,760 --> 01:15:14,320
Speaker 1: I really like to say there's something really nefarious going on.

1323
01:15:15,080 --> 01:15:18,960
Speaker 1: That's kind of mine more fun, you know. It's it's

1324
01:15:18,960 --> 01:15:21,880
Speaker 1: more fun to say, oh, the Vatican totally had these

1325
01:15:22,000 --> 01:15:25,040
Speaker 1: dudes off for whatever reason. They had this creepy monk

1326
01:15:25,280 --> 01:15:29,640
Speaker 1: like the flagellateimself. It's that's so much more fun, you know.

1327
01:15:29,720 --> 01:15:33,880
Speaker 1: And I think that the evidence is strong that tor

1328
01:15:33,960 --> 01:15:37,000
Speaker 1: name was probably not the kind of guy to just

1329
01:15:37,080 --> 01:15:41,800
Speaker 1: go shoot two people and then himself well blood. But

1330
01:15:42,360 --> 01:15:44,960
Speaker 1: I also don't know that there's a good theory about

1331
01:15:45,960 --> 01:15:50,439
Speaker 1: what was going on, you know, I don't think there's

1332
01:15:50,479 --> 01:15:52,400
Speaker 1: any any None of them are good to me. Yeah,

1333
01:15:52,439 --> 01:15:54,479
Speaker 1: I think they Even though I had to say it,

1334
01:15:54,520 --> 01:15:58,120
Speaker 1: I think the whole, the whole gay thing between Estimate

1335
01:15:58,080 --> 01:16:01,320
Speaker 1: and Tournay really makes it a little more credible. When

1336
01:16:01,400 --> 01:16:05,240
Speaker 1: its guess because you know you're not, even though obviously

1337
01:16:05,400 --> 01:16:08,680
Speaker 1: he jilted lover. Yeah, jilted lover is a lot more,

1338
01:16:08,960 --> 01:16:12,800
Speaker 1: a lot more big good excuse to go murder suicide. Honestly, Yeah,

1339
01:16:12,880 --> 01:16:17,080
Speaker 1: that's way better for me than like, oh, he I'm

1340
01:16:17,120 --> 01:16:19,360
Speaker 1: not in it. Yeah, but you know I'm not in it.

1341
01:16:19,439 --> 01:16:21,320
Speaker 1: So I don't know how important the medal was to

1342
01:16:21,320 --> 01:16:24,639
Speaker 1: torn it, but you know, to me, it's the jilted

1343
01:16:24,720 --> 01:16:29,240
Speaker 1: lover is a stronger Yeah, yeah, that's a stronger motivation.

1344
01:16:29,280 --> 01:16:31,760
Speaker 1: It would also help explain more why the Vatican has

1345
01:16:31,800 --> 01:16:34,040
Speaker 1: been so hush hush about it, right, And I want

1346
01:16:34,040 --> 01:16:37,519
Speaker 1: to say these guys were kind of acting on their sin.

1347
01:16:38,360 --> 01:16:40,080
Speaker 1: And you know, for the record, I don't think that

1348
01:16:40,160 --> 01:16:42,439
Speaker 1: saying these two dudes were gay is bad mouthing them,

1349
01:16:42,520 --> 01:16:45,519
Speaker 1: but it's but we don't we don't know that that's true.

1350
01:16:45,600 --> 01:16:48,000
Speaker 1: That's my that's I think we're Joe and I had

1351
01:16:48,080 --> 01:16:52,080
Speaker 1: both go. There's nothing wrong with being gay. It's saying well,

1352
01:16:52,479 --> 01:16:56,160
Speaker 1: they must have been they must have been gay. Lover. Absolutely,

1353
01:16:56,200 --> 01:16:59,680
Speaker 1: there's there's an overttone there that shouldn't be Absolutely, I

1354
01:16:59,720 --> 01:17:02,080
Speaker 1: think it it's a total option, you know, And and

1355
01:17:02,120 --> 01:17:05,519
Speaker 1: there's there's certainly some fair proof for it, but also

1356
01:17:05,560 --> 01:17:09,559
Speaker 1: there's fair proof for wants of other things. So who knows. Honestly,

1357
01:17:09,680 --> 01:17:14,120
Speaker 1: I I personally I feel bad. I I think that

1358
01:17:14,560 --> 01:17:17,400
Speaker 1: it's amazing is that he's gonna sound. I think the

1359
01:17:17,479 --> 01:17:22,679
Speaker 1: Vatican story is right because of the stuff that I've

1360
01:17:22,720 --> 01:17:26,840
Speaker 1: read of all of the bs that toured a put

1361
01:17:26,920 --> 01:17:31,080
Speaker 1: up with. I think the straw that broke the cameras

1362
01:17:31,160 --> 01:17:33,680
Speaker 1: straw broke the camel's back. And think about you ever

1363
01:17:33,720 --> 01:17:39,360
Speaker 1: had a roommate that you really don't like, and you

1364
01:17:39,360 --> 01:17:40,920
Speaker 1: haven't lived with him a couple of months, you have

1365
01:17:41,000 --> 01:17:43,599
Speaker 1: lived with him a couple of years, and all of

1366
01:17:43,640 --> 01:17:48,000
Speaker 1: the sudden they leave a plate on the countertop and

1367
01:17:48,200 --> 01:17:53,000
Speaker 1: you lose your mind and go crazy at them. Something

1368
01:17:53,040 --> 01:17:57,200
Speaker 1: like that. Something. Yeah, I can see the same thing

1369
01:17:57,360 --> 01:17:59,680
Speaker 1: is that you've got a boss that you've hate and

1370
01:17:59,720 --> 01:18:03,240
Speaker 1: then one day he does something that is just so

1371
01:18:03,360 --> 01:18:06,240
Speaker 1: dumb and you can't take it anymore and you lose

1372
01:18:06,280 --> 01:18:09,439
Speaker 1: your mind. Yeah, And that's that's where I think. I

1373
01:18:09,479 --> 01:18:12,360
Speaker 1: don't I don't buy into the Vaticans. He had a tumor,

1374
01:18:12,920 --> 01:18:17,519
Speaker 1: he was like all that stuff. I think that they

1375
01:18:17,560 --> 01:18:21,639
Speaker 1: were they were hedging their bets with But I think

1376
01:18:21,640 --> 01:18:25,200
Speaker 1: he snapped. Yeah, I think I think it's possible, and

1377
01:18:25,200 --> 01:18:27,599
Speaker 1: I feel bad for the guy. Really, I kind of

1378
01:18:27,640 --> 01:18:31,000
Speaker 1: like when doing my research I had reading about torn

1379
01:18:31,040 --> 01:18:33,920
Speaker 1: A Um. He seemed like a likable guy. He seemed

1380
01:18:33,920 --> 01:18:35,320
Speaker 1: like a happy dude. And you know, the thing was,

1381
01:18:35,479 --> 01:18:37,760
Speaker 1: he's gonna get his medal. He was gonna go home,

1382
01:18:38,120 --> 01:18:41,360
Speaker 1: he was gonna start his career where he was going out.

1383
01:18:41,680 --> 01:18:45,800
Speaker 1: I had done that Swiss Guard, but he couldn't see

1384
01:18:45,800 --> 01:18:48,519
Speaker 1: this problem. He couldn't do it if he didn't get

1385
01:18:48,560 --> 01:18:53,160
Speaker 1: the he needed to get the medal. Was the proof

1386
01:18:53,320 --> 01:18:56,400
Speaker 1: that he did it, and then I did right, exactly

1387
01:18:56,640 --> 01:19:02,520
Speaker 1: exactly was Esterman was totally screwing him. Whether whether Obestman

1388
01:19:02,640 --> 01:19:04,600
Speaker 1: or somebody else that said that he couldn't get it,

1389
01:19:04,640 --> 01:19:07,679
Speaker 1: I don't know, but that's you know, he got screwed

1390
01:19:07,720 --> 01:19:11,280
Speaker 1: in the end. Yeah, he really did. He's the victim. Yeah,

1391
01:19:12,080 --> 01:19:17,560
Speaker 1: not Patsy the victim. Okay, so we solve that mystery.

1392
01:19:18,280 --> 01:19:21,839
Speaker 1: Let me give you, let me give us some relevant facts.

1393
01:19:21,840 --> 01:19:24,799
Speaker 1: There you want to probably dying to find our website.

1394
01:19:24,800 --> 01:19:26,599
Speaker 1: Of course you've probably already been there, but in case

1395
01:19:26,640 --> 01:19:31,120
Speaker 1: you haven't, thinking sideways podcast dot com. You can leave

1396
01:19:31,200 --> 01:19:34,920
Speaker 1: us a comment, check links links to all of our episodes,

1397
01:19:35,520 --> 01:19:37,680
Speaker 1: and you can listen to episodes from there. You can

1398
01:19:37,720 --> 01:19:41,679
Speaker 1: also find us on iTunes. Please subscribe, leave us a review,

1399
01:19:42,040 --> 01:19:45,840
Speaker 1: that would be awesome. We like reviews, especially nice reviews. Yeah,

1400
01:19:45,960 --> 01:19:48,080
Speaker 1: we prefer kind of nice reviews. I mean, be honest.

1401
01:19:48,240 --> 01:19:53,920
Speaker 1: We don't like being called idiots so much. Yeah. Yeah.

1402
01:19:53,960 --> 01:19:55,840
Speaker 1: As far as streaming, you can stream us from all

1403
01:19:55,920 --> 01:19:59,240
Speaker 1: kinds of different places. Um. Literally, you guys, name a dozen,

1404
01:20:00,600 --> 01:20:07,680
Speaker 1: name three answer named them, podcatcher and pod bay. All right,

1405
01:20:07,720 --> 01:20:10,479
Speaker 1: there you go. Next up, find us on Facebook. You

1406
01:20:10,560 --> 01:20:12,960
Speaker 1: might have made one of those up. Yeah, okay, now,

1407
01:20:14,120 --> 01:20:17,680
Speaker 1: uh pod people, Yeah, Facebook, find us on Facebook. We

1408
01:20:17,720 --> 01:20:20,680
Speaker 1: are on Facebook just you know, and friend us, like us,

1409
01:20:21,400 --> 01:20:23,920
Speaker 1: comment group and page. Well, we do have a group

1410
01:20:23,920 --> 01:20:25,920
Speaker 1: in a page. I forgot about the group. N most

1411
01:20:25,880 --> 01:20:29,599
Speaker 1: forgetting about the group. Also, we are on Twitter thinking

1412
01:20:29,680 --> 01:20:34,320
Speaker 1: sideways that's thinking not thinking and our last of all,

1413
01:20:34,520 --> 01:20:36,200
Speaker 1: if you want to send us an email, let would

1414
01:20:36,200 --> 01:20:41,839
Speaker 1: be great. Email address is thinking Sideways podcast at gmail

1415
01:20:41,920 --> 01:20:44,920
Speaker 1: dot com. Uh, and we've actually started this new thing.

1416
01:20:45,479 --> 01:20:47,720
Speaker 1: We posted on Reddit and I think we posted on

1417
01:20:47,760 --> 01:20:52,400
Speaker 1: our Facebook and I we also posted on Twitter. Um,

1418
01:20:52,439 --> 01:20:55,360
Speaker 1: but it occurs to us that we have some listeners

1419
01:20:55,400 --> 01:20:58,920
Speaker 1: who don't any of those things. People don't use social media.

1420
01:20:59,520 --> 01:21:03,240
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, another mystery we must look into. I listened

1421
01:21:03,280 --> 01:21:05,040
Speaker 1: to a number of podcasts and I don't follow their

1422
01:21:05,040 --> 01:21:09,960
Speaker 1: face I know. Um. Actually, we utilized this network for

1423
01:21:10,000 --> 01:21:12,439
Speaker 1: the first time this week, and it was thanks to

1424
01:21:12,600 --> 01:21:16,880
Speaker 1: John and Tarkan. Yeah, but we've recently put out a

1425
01:21:16,920 --> 01:21:20,960
Speaker 1: call for experts UM on pretty much anything, anything and

1426
01:21:21,040 --> 01:21:23,880
Speaker 1: everything under this sung. We pretty much realized that we

1427
01:21:23,960 --> 01:21:26,720
Speaker 1: are okay at some things, but we don't really know

1428
01:21:26,840 --> 01:21:30,000
Speaker 1: very much about anything. So we want to improve our

1429
01:21:30,000 --> 01:21:33,680
Speaker 1: podcast by reaching out to people who are experts in

1430
01:21:33,720 --> 01:21:35,800
Speaker 1: our community who are willing to help us. So, if

1431
01:21:36,000 --> 01:21:39,080
Speaker 1: that is you send us an email at Thinking Side

1432
01:21:39,080 --> 01:21:42,439
Speaker 1: with podcast at gmail dot com. I will get back

1433
01:21:42,439 --> 01:21:45,080
Speaker 1: to you. Put experts in the subject line. You don't

1434
01:21:45,080 --> 01:21:48,280
Speaker 1: have to, but actually, yeah, put expert in the subject

1435
01:21:48,920 --> 01:21:52,080
Speaker 1: somewhere and we'll get back to you a list and

1436
01:21:52,200 --> 01:21:54,639
Speaker 1: we'll email you if we have questions. But we really

1437
01:21:54,640 --> 01:21:58,400
Speaker 1: appreciate it. And yeah, and the only the only caveat

1438
01:21:58,400 --> 01:22:03,720
Speaker 1: that we ask is we usually need a relatively quick turnaround,

1439
01:22:04,720 --> 01:22:06,840
Speaker 1: like a day or two. You know, if you if

1440
01:22:06,880 --> 01:22:09,000
Speaker 1: you get your emails and you check them, what's a

1441
01:22:09,000 --> 01:22:12,560
Speaker 1: week or you think on it for six months, it

1442
01:22:12,680 --> 01:22:15,280
Speaker 1: might not be your game. Yeah, so but do send

1443
01:22:15,320 --> 01:22:17,559
Speaker 1: us an email, will add you to the list and

1444
01:22:17,600 --> 01:22:21,599
Speaker 1: we'll probably contact you at some point a huge list already.

1445
01:22:21,800 --> 01:22:24,680
Speaker 1: It's been me. We started this one a week and

1446
01:22:24,680 --> 01:22:27,439
Speaker 1: a half ago and we I know, I took advantage

1447
01:22:27,439 --> 01:22:32,439
Speaker 1: of it right away. And by the way, I really

1448
01:22:32,439 --> 01:22:36,680
Speaker 1: could use a demolitions expert also, somebody who knows how

1449
01:22:36,720 --> 01:22:39,600
Speaker 1: to get rid of no no no no no no.

1450
01:22:39,840 --> 01:22:42,200
Speaker 1: So yeah, send us that email. If if that's you

1451
01:22:42,280 --> 01:22:44,439
Speaker 1: and you haven't yet found us on all of our

1452
01:22:44,520 --> 01:22:48,960
Speaker 1: various social media's, we would really appreciate it. And if

1453
01:22:49,000 --> 01:22:51,479
Speaker 1: that's it for you guys, it for me, I think

1454
01:22:51,520 --> 01:22:54,639
Speaker 1: I'm done. Okay, well that's until next week.