1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:04,920 Speaker 1: Fellow conspiracy realist. It's June twenty second, nineteen eighty three. 2 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: We're in Vatican City where a fifteen year old resident 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 1: named Emanuela or Landy disappears. Do you guys remember this 4 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 1: one very much too? 5 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 2: And I remember hearing from some listeners who passed on 6 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 2: some very interesting inside information about this story as well. 7 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:27,479 Speaker 3: Guys, I don't remember a ton about this specific thing. 8 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 3: I'm really excited to re listen. 9 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: Especially given that three years after we initially recorded this 10 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 1: episode in twenty twenty, the case was reopened. 11 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, one hundred percent. Then, remembering back, there definitely was 12 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 2: one particular listener that sent us some very remarkable documents 13 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:50,599 Speaker 2: and images related to this, and I believe we talk 14 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:52,839 Speaker 2: about that in the episode. So why don't we take 15 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 2: a word from our sponsor really quickly, and then we'll 16 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:58,160 Speaker 2: jump right into this classic episode on what happened to 17 00:00:58,240 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 2: Emmanuela or Landy. 18 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:04,680 Speaker 4: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 19 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 4: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 20 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:11,160 Speaker 4: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. 21 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:25,839 Speaker 3: A production of IHEARTRADI, Hello, welcome back to the show. 22 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 3: My name is Matt my name is Noah. 23 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:30,120 Speaker 1: They call me Ben. We are joined as always with 24 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 1: our super producer Paul, Mission Control decand most importantly, you 25 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 1: are here and that makes this stuff they don't want 26 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 1: you to know, coming to you live and direct. Yet 27 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:45,679 Speaker 1: again we're your favorite Quentin Quarantinos. We're still keeping the 28 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: lights on in our separate bunkers here. Just wanted to 29 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 1: check in with everybody real quick before we dive in. 30 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 1: How are you today? 31 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 3: I'm really good. Over the weekend, I spent some time 32 00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 3: digging through our voicemail archive and everybody that's been calling 33 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 3: in and got to talk with several of you you 34 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:10,360 Speaker 3: listening right now. Speaking to you, I've been instructed to 35 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 3: say the word divination to prove to one person that 36 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 3: I called that it was real. So there you have it. 37 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 3: I would just say everyone out there that I've spoken to, 38 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 3: and a lot of people that have been calling in, 39 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:26,640 Speaker 3: you know, we're all still dealing with this thing. A 40 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 3: lot of you are doing great work to continue both 41 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:32,639 Speaker 3: the economy and the health of others of us who 42 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 3: are listening and present today. So thank you to all 43 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 3: of you. Just keep doing what you're doing, especially you 44 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 3: truckers who are out there are still going every day. 45 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:46,919 Speaker 3: You healthcare workers who are going every day, essential workers 46 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 3: in the grocery stores who are going every day and 47 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:53,760 Speaker 3: putting yourselves at risk. Big props to you guys. 48 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 1: Well said, what about you, Nol, how's it going? 49 00:02:56,800 --> 00:02:59,360 Speaker 2: Oh it's good. I had a really nice weekend. I 50 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:04,640 Speaker 2: made tied ie shirts with my daughter. You know, proof 51 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 2: positive that the madness is really starting to take hold, 52 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 2: because that's a thing I never would have done before. 53 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 2: But you know what, it turns out I really like 54 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 2: it and it's you get some really nice results. We 55 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:19,240 Speaker 2: tried two different methods. There's the twist method where you 56 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:21,360 Speaker 2: put rubber bands around it like a braid of a 57 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:24,240 Speaker 2: giant ponytail, like a French braid. And there's not one 58 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:25,359 Speaker 2: where you can just bunch it up and put the 59 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 2: rubber bands around the wad and. 60 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 3: The results are really delightful. 61 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 2: I think I'm a tie die guy. Now. 62 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 3: Nice. 63 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 1: Good to you here, And of course you can find 64 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 1: some of those results on our very social media, which 65 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 1: we will shout out either during this show or at 66 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 1: the end. 67 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, mine's at how now Noel Brown? If you want 68 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 2: to check it out, Ben, what have you been up to. 69 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 1: All sorts of things. You know, they're really deep into 70 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 1: a really really deep into a strange web. That is 71 00:03:57,320 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 1: the subject of today's show. This is something that I 72 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 1: think is familiar to a lot of our fellow conspiracy realists. 73 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 1: It's a mystery, it's a disappearance. And you know, of course, 74 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 1: if we are being realistic, which we must be, the 75 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 1: sad truth of the world is that thousands of people 76 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 1: disappear every day, even now in twenty twenty, as the 77 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:25,159 Speaker 1: surveillance state grows stronger than it ever has been before. Yet, 78 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 1: of all those disappearances, this case has always stood out 79 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 1: for us, for me, for you, Matt, you know, and 80 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 1: particularly for Paul Michigan Control Decat himself. Recently, we received 81 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 1: several partially redacted records from a source that prefers to 82 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 1: remain anonymous, and this prompted us to finally dive in 83 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:51,080 Speaker 1: to one of the most mystifying disappearances in modern history. 84 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:56,479 Speaker 1: Today we are asking what exactly happened to EMMANUELA or 85 00:04:56,560 --> 00:05:02,640 Speaker 1: Landing a quick bit of house keeping here. First, our 86 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 1: source that decided to remain anonymous or preferred that way. 87 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 1: When this source sent us these documents, we circulated them 88 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 1: amid ourselves. We haven't shared them anywhere and we're don't. 89 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 1: I don't know if we should, honestly, but we'll get 90 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:24,680 Speaker 1: into that. And Secondly, as we like to say, at 91 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:29,600 Speaker 1: the top of every particularly darker violent episode, there is 92 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:34,280 Speaker 1: content in today's show that may be triggering to some people. 93 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 1: We will be talking about the allegations of sexual abuse, 94 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 1: we will be talking about murder, and there will be 95 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 1: scenes of violence, so we want to put that up 96 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 1: there at the top. Now, we have to do some 97 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 1: background for everybody who thinks Emmanuela or Landy, who is that? 98 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 1: Did you say Orlando, No, we said or Landy. And 99 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:03,799 Speaker 1: let's learn a little bit about our main character. Here 100 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:05,560 Speaker 1: here are the facts. 101 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:09,680 Speaker 2: Yes, Emmanuela or Landi was born in nineteen sixty eight, 102 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 2: one of five children, and according to records, her father 103 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 2: worked either at the Vatican Bank or was actually a 104 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:24,359 Speaker 2: member of the staff in the papal household. According to 105 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 2: Emmanuela's older brother Pietro, the family lived inside Vatican City 106 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 2: and would often they grew up feeling as though the 107 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:38,440 Speaker 2: Vatican gardens, which are lush and gorgeous, was their own backyard. 108 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 2: That's according to him, and he's been a very outspoken 109 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:44,279 Speaker 2: person in the press about this story. In nineteen eighty three, 110 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 2: Emanuela was a sophomore in high school. The school year 111 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 2: had ended for the summer, and she was taking flute 112 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:56,279 Speaker 2: lessons nearby at a music school, at the Tomaso Ludovico 113 00:06:56,560 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 2: Victoria School, and she was into music. She sang in 114 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:05,240 Speaker 2: the choir, played the flute, and seemed to have a 115 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 2: real gift for just picking up instruments. 116 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, I was on the twenty second of June in 117 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 3: that year, nineteen eighty three when she disappeared, and we 118 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 3: don't know much, but this is what we do now. 119 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 3: She left a family apartment. She was wearing a white 120 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 3: T shirt. She had on denim overalls and running shoes. 121 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 3: She got onto a bus and she traveled a pretty 122 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 3: short distance, only about two kilometers. She got off near 123 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 3: the Piazza Navona, and this is right in front of 124 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:38,400 Speaker 3: the Italian Senate. By the way, she was stopped by 125 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 3: a young man in a green BMW. There was a 126 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 3: traffic officer who witnessed this whole scene, just Emmanuela getting 127 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 3: off and speaking to this man in a green BMW. 128 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 3: The Senate security cameras were not working that day though, 129 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 3: so there was no video proof of this. 130 00:07:57,080 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 1: Matt, I just want to interject it and put this 131 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 1: in the note. But it's important to note that her brother, 132 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 1: Pietro Orlandi, who's going to play a big role in 133 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 1: this story, he is the reason that she ended up 134 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 1: using public transit. According to what we know, she asked 135 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 1: him for a ride to the flute lesson and he 136 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:21,360 Speaker 1: refused for one reason or another, So that's why she 137 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 1: ended up on the bus. 138 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 3: Yeah. He is stated several times over the course of 139 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 3: all these years that they got into a fight a 140 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 3: row and that's why they decided not to go that route. 141 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 3: Right for him taking her there, but she did end 142 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 3: up going to her flute class or music class as 143 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 3: she normally would have. She did call her sister after 144 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 3: that class had completed, and that phone call was the 145 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 3: last known contact that anyone ever had with Emmanuela, at 146 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 3: least the last known contact to the family and to investigators. Right. 147 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 1: Yes, she had made plans with her sister to meet 148 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 1: at a piazza at seven point thirty pm, and that 149 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 1: is where her trail ends. She was reported a missing 150 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 1: person the next day. Also, want to bust a myth. 151 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:17,679 Speaker 1: Here in most countries, you do not have to wait 152 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 1: twenty four hours to report someone missing. That's a story 153 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: the television has told us. If you have reasonable cause 154 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:29,320 Speaker 1: to believe someone has gone missing, go ahead and report 155 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 1: them because every hour, every second counts, so the investigation begins. 156 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 1: The next day. Tips start rolling in. Some are much 157 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 1: more promising or seem much more solid than others, to 158 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 1: tips in particular capture the investigator's attention. There's one caller 159 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:54,280 Speaker 1: who refers to himself as Pierre Luigi. He makes a 160 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 1: call on June twenty fifth, and he says, I've seen 161 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:01,600 Speaker 1: this child, not in Vatican City. I've seen her earlier 162 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 1: in Rome on the day of her disappearance, and he 163 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 1: provided details that made it sound believable to the authorities. 164 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:13,600 Speaker 1: He mentioned that she had a flute, a flutecase with her. 165 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:17,040 Speaker 1: He described her clothing, which you described earlier, Matt and 166 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:21,560 Speaker 1: his description match. However, he had some interesting things to say. 167 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:25,720 Speaker 1: Pierre Luigi said the girl was not going by the 168 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 1: name Emmanuela. Instead, she was calling herself Barberella, and that 169 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 1: she had run away from home to sell, of all 170 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 1: things products for avon. That's an interesting detail. Too, because 171 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 1: it wasn't something that was out there in the public sphere. 172 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 1: You know, it's pretty common in high profile cases for 173 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 1: authorities to withhold some information because it helps you separate 174 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 1: the wheat from the chaff, believe it or not. In 175 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 1: a lot of missing cases, a lot of suspected homicides, 176 00:10:57,160 --> 00:11:00,440 Speaker 1: when authorities asked the public for tips, they get a 177 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 1: lot of really cold hearted pranks where they get some 178 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:07,560 Speaker 1: unstable people making ridiculous claims. So the fact that he 179 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:11,720 Speaker 1: knew about this Avon thing was especially fascinating because it 180 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:17,079 Speaker 1: tracked with information provided by the family Orlandi had mentioned 181 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 1: wanting to sell Avon products earlier to her sister before 182 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:23,440 Speaker 1: her disappearance, which is something a lot of people did 183 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 1: not know. 184 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:27,120 Speaker 2: So a second call came just a couple of days later, 185 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 2: on June twenty eighth, another man claimed to have met 186 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 2: a young woman going by Barbara who had also run 187 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 2: away from home, and this caller said that he had 188 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 2: seen her in a bar nearby the music school and 189 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:45,960 Speaker 2: you know, calling herself Barbara. There were several other tips. 190 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:51,560 Speaker 2: Some caller speculated that there was a conspiracy afoot. A 191 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 2: Turkish terrorist group called the Gray Wolves, allegedly had planned 192 00:11:55,960 --> 00:12:00,880 Speaker 2: to kidnap or Landy allegedly then exchange her for one 193 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 2: of their members, sort of a political prisoner swap situation, 194 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 2: a memet ali Agka. 195 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 3: It would be. 196 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:13,560 Speaker 2: Assassin who'd been imprisoned for shooting the pope two years earlier. 197 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 2: So what where did it go from there? 198 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 1: Oh, devil coins, that's where it went. And we shall 199 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:23,200 Speaker 1: also mentioned that second caller also said the young woman 200 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 1: who was calling herself Barbara had run away from home. 201 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 1: So they have those commonalities, and we have a great story. 202 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 1: It's not really ours to tell. It is a story 203 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:36,839 Speaker 1: from our good friend, writer Die Paul mission controlled decad 204 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 1: about fascinating coins that were allegedly discovered during the as 205 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:47,040 Speaker 1: the attempted assassination of the pope. That's a story for 206 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 1: another day. But there's the door to the Google rabbit hole. 207 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:54,800 Speaker 1: If you want to get lost over the week, you're 208 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 1: you're asking a vital question, Noel, what did happen? There's 209 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:05,959 Speaker 1: no shortage of intriguing, compelling, tantalizing that would be the 210 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 1: right word, tantalizing theories surrounding Orlandy's disappearance and at this 211 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:16,439 Speaker 1: stage her presumed death. You know, the Turkish terrorist group 212 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 1: that's just scratching the surface. We have to remember the 213 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 1: Vatican and the surrounding region is a hub of religious power, 214 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:27,720 Speaker 1: and it's a hub of mafia power. It's a hub 215 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 1: of organized crime, and these groups often come under suspicion 216 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:37,200 Speaker 1: in the world of conspiracy. I meant the Vatican City 217 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 1: itself is a very very weird place. Let's see the 218 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 1: age of consent for a long time, I think was 219 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 1: twelve years old. It's also the only place where you 220 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:51,680 Speaker 1: can find an atm in Latin. Just so these aren't 221 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:57,439 Speaker 1: all horrible quick facts. And it also wields this outsize, 222 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 1: tremendous influence on human civilization, and it has for centuries 223 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 1: and centuries. 224 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 4: You know, the. 225 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:16,160 Speaker 1: Nexus of powerful religious organization, of incredibly powerful godlike financial institutions, 226 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 1: and criminal organizations. It all comes to a head here 227 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 1: in a very real way. You could say it's even 228 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 1: more powerful than the City of London, which longtime listeners 229 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 1: you'll recall is not actually London. It's just in London, 230 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 1: and it's called the City of London. It is a 231 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 1: very confusing time for names because Vatican City it's called 232 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 1: a city, and it is a city, but it's a state, 233 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 1: and it's an uber state, and it's beyond a lot 234 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 1: of laws that would apply to Jane and John does 235 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 1: like us and the people listening, unless you're listening and 236 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 1: you're the pope, in which case thanks for checking in. 237 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:54,920 Speaker 2: Man. 238 00:14:55,200 --> 00:15:00,840 Speaker 3: It is very odd to imagine Vaticans City as a 239 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 3: religious monarchy. That is just a strange that's a strange thing. 240 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 3: There are so few places that exist in twenty twenty 241 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 3: that are full on monarchies, you know, without a parliament 242 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 3: connected in some way, or without a secondary governmental institution 243 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 3: attached in some way. I'm not saying they don't exist. 244 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 3: They are. Certainly, they're certainly, I guess a dozen or 245 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 3: so dozens, let's say, But just to have the amount 246 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 3: of wealth and power that they have, it's pretty strange 247 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 3: to see it both together. 248 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 1: And it's so weird to talk about this case because 249 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 1: you know, if you picture this episode and this exploration 250 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:53,479 Speaker 1: as us walking through an art gallery in a hallway, 251 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 1: we're passing this gigantic mural that says Vatican Conspiracies, and 252 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 1: we're kind of pointing at it for you. But it's 253 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 1: not the part of this episode that we're going to 254 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 1: focus on. You can find our earlier videos on this. 255 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 1: You can find some earlier podcasts we've done. But it 256 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:13,760 Speaker 1: goes very very deep and a disturbing amount of the 257 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 1: things that are treated as conspiracy theories about the Vatican 258 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 1: have later turned out to be at least partially true. 259 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 1: This is reality, and given this reality, it's no surprise 260 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:27,040 Speaker 1: then that the Vatican is the subject of so many 261 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 1: conspiracy theories. And like the leads in the Orlandic case, 262 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 1: some of these theories are way more plausible than others. 263 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 1: I think it's this inherent strangeness of Vatican City and 264 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:44,840 Speaker 1: this bizarre, tragic disappearance of this fifteen year old girl 265 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 1: that combined to make this such a mystifying mystery. And 266 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:53,440 Speaker 1: you know, this is just context for the question we 267 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 1: asked earlier. Will pause for a word from our sponsors 268 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:08,360 Speaker 1: and return to ask what happened? And to EMMANUELA or Lande, 269 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:10,520 Speaker 1: here's where it gets crazy. 270 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:17,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, decades later, this mystery is still just that a mystery. 271 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:21,680 Speaker 2: It is unsolved, though there are plenty of theories, as 272 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 2: tends to be the case when you have cold cases 273 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:27,879 Speaker 2: like this. We had talked about the gray wolves, but 274 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 2: what about that other organization that seems to thrive so 275 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 2: readily in Vatican City, the mafia. Mafia theories largely revolve 276 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:43,360 Speaker 2: around a Rome based syndicate, a crime syndicate known as 277 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 2: the Banda de la Magliana led by Enrico de Pedis. 278 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:53,440 Speaker 2: The theory states that the syndicate had loaned large sums 279 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:57,520 Speaker 2: of money to the Vatican Bank, but weren't getting their 280 00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:00,440 Speaker 2: payments as quickly as they would have liked at all, 281 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 2: they weren't being paid back what they were owed, so 282 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:07,920 Speaker 2: they decided that taking a Vatican official's daughter for ransom 283 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:11,400 Speaker 2: was the way to get their money back, and one 284 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:15,400 Speaker 2: of de Pettus's former girlfriends claimed on the record that 285 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:20,720 Speaker 2: her ex told her he had kidnapped or Landy, and 286 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:24,879 Speaker 2: these claims were plausible enough that the authorities decided to 287 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 2: get involved. 288 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:31,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know. Depettus himself, like many mafioso, had a 289 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 1: live by the sword, die by the sword situation. He 290 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:37,240 Speaker 1: was fatally shot in a square in Rome back in 291 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety, and years later after his death, an investigative 292 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 1: journalist found out that Depettus's body had been very very 293 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:54,360 Speaker 1: quietly moved from a normal cemetery to the prestigious Basilica 294 00:18:54,800 --> 00:19:01,199 Speaker 1: sant Apaullinaire. This is interesting because this Basilican Britis is 295 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:06,639 Speaker 1: not It's like a very exclusive club for corpses, if 296 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:08,960 Speaker 1: you want to be crass about it. This is not 297 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:13,560 Speaker 1: where ordinary people are buried. This is the eternal parking 298 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:17,399 Speaker 1: spot for the bodies of cardinals and princes and other 299 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 1: illustrious members of society, Vatican and lay people alike. So 300 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 1: it's odd that a very successful criminal would end up 301 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:33,840 Speaker 1: first off buried somewhere else and then for some reason 302 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 1: have his body moved posthumously to a different site. People 303 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 1: were freaking out, and so in twenty thirteen, like you're 304 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:46,240 Speaker 1: saying no from some of the leads, they got the 305 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:51,040 Speaker 1: authorities actually decided that they would open the tomb of 306 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:55,639 Speaker 1: this mobster, and they wanted to see whether the rumors 307 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:59,640 Speaker 1: were true, whether it was in fact the case that 308 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:04,240 Speaker 1: Weella Orlandi was dead and that her remains were secretly 309 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:08,400 Speaker 1: placed inside the tomb of Dippetus. 310 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:10,879 Speaker 3: Which does seem on the surface like it would be 311 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:12,200 Speaker 3: a little odd. 312 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:12,600 Speaker 1: Right. 313 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 3: He was killed in nineteen ninety, she's been missing since 314 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 3: nineteen eighty three. That would mean seven years of waiting 315 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:25,359 Speaker 3: until you intererred her into a tomb, just if he 316 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 3: was if she was put into his original resting place, right, 317 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:31,640 Speaker 3: and then after he got moved, there were a lot 318 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:35,439 Speaker 3: of big, you know, what ifs, But there was rumor 319 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:39,200 Speaker 3: and there was you know, possibility, So it was looked into. 320 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 3: And when they did open it up, they found more 321 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 3: than they bargained for. Right, his body was there. It 322 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 3: was a very nice sarcophagus in which he was placed. 323 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 3: He was well preserved. He had a dark blue suit 324 00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:58,240 Speaker 3: and a black tie. They took fingerprints from his body. 325 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:03,640 Speaker 3: They confirmed his identity. But they also found this other 326 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 3: thing talked away inside this ancient crypt where he was buried. 327 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:13,320 Speaker 1: That's right. They found not just one person's remains, but 328 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:18,640 Speaker 1: multiple remains. There were dozens of boxes that held unidentified 329 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:22,640 Speaker 1: human bones, you know. So they went looking for one 330 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 1: secret corpse and they found multiple remains. And then this 331 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 1: is this here's where the plot gets even trickier. Around 332 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 1: the same time they said this was twenty thirteen, right, 333 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:40,960 Speaker 1: so roughly around the same time, a returning guest of 334 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:45,360 Speaker 1: sorts to our show, the infamous Vatican exorcist, Gabrielle Amorth, 335 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:50,239 Speaker 1: claimed that EMMANUELA or Landy did not run away and 336 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:53,879 Speaker 1: claimed instead that she was kidnapped by a member of 337 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:57,119 Speaker 1: none other than the Vatican Police Force. He said that 338 00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:02,360 Speaker 1: she was kidnapped for the purpose of being abused at 339 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:04,920 Speaker 1: sex parties for lack of a better term, and then 340 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 1: that she would be murdered. After that, he said she 341 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 1: had already died. He also alleged, and this is public too, 342 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:14,719 Speaker 1: It's been reported in multiple sources, he also alleged that 343 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 1: officials of a foreign embassy they did not name were 344 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 1: also involved in this crime. That's important because if any 345 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 1: of that's true, what that means is that there was 346 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 1: an organized sexual abuse ring. Now, this is something that 347 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:35,720 Speaker 1: you know, we hear thrown around a lot in conspiracy circles. 348 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:39,119 Speaker 1: But one of the most troubling things about these sorts 349 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 1: of allegations is that every so often they end up 350 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 1: being at least partially true. And this is something that 351 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:49,160 Speaker 1: people from across the spectrum have been saying was going 352 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 1: on in the Vatican for a long long time, you 353 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 1: know what I mean. 354 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:57,359 Speaker 2: Well, at the very least, we have hard proof of 355 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:03,600 Speaker 2: systematic cover ups of sectional abuse by priests and members 356 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 2: high level members of the clergy in the Vatican, you know, 357 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 2: to take it to the next level of organized sex 358 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 2: abuse ring doesn't feel like much of a jump to 359 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:19,919 Speaker 2: me personally. You know, people may differ on that, but 360 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:25,200 Speaker 2: it's certainly the cover up is essentially the same thing 361 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:30,400 Speaker 2: as advocating or protecting that kind of behavior. So why 362 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 2: would it be such a you know, suspension disbelief to 363 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 2: think that there's a step further and actually orchestrating that, 364 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:40,359 Speaker 2: especially for people that are very privileged and used to 365 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 2: being able to order people around and get everything they 366 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:44,639 Speaker 2: want and be weighted on hand and foot. 367 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:48,080 Speaker 3: You know, yes, but we also have the words here 368 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 3: from an archivist at the Vatican, Monsignor Simeo and Duca, 369 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 3: who in twenty sixteen backed up the claims of our 370 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:06,680 Speaker 3: friendly neighborhood exorcist Gabriel. He cited quote credible information that 371 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 3: quote certain factions inside the Vatican's diplomatic Corps were involved 372 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:17,080 Speaker 3: in procuring young adolescent girls for sexual slavery. And this 373 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:21,120 Speaker 3: this gentleman, mon Signor Duca. He also believed that Orlandi 374 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 3: was abducted for that purpose, and he believed that she 375 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:29,199 Speaker 3: was killed when I guess she had. It's terrible to 376 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:32,320 Speaker 3: think about it this in this way, but when she 377 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 3: was no longer innocent in the way that perhaps the 378 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:39,200 Speaker 3: people that were doing this wanted. 379 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:45,960 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it's a it's a terrifying and very grim allegation. 380 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:47,040 Speaker 2: Uh. 381 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:53,480 Speaker 1: One thing that's interesting about both Duka and Amors statements 382 00:24:54,119 --> 00:25:00,439 Speaker 1: is that they're inherently drawing a line to geopolitics and 383 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 1: also to the halls of power to intelligence agencies. I mean, 384 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:10,000 Speaker 1: that's ultimately where that rabbit hole leads. And it also 385 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 1: jibes with ongoing, ongoing allegations like decades and decades old 386 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:22,440 Speaker 1: allegations that certain factions of intelligence agencies have coerced people 387 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 1: into these heinous acts of child abuse in order to 388 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:32,720 Speaker 1: ensure their loyalty. You know, it reminds likes as out 389 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:36,320 Speaker 1: there in Black Mirror esque or Dan brownish as it 390 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:44,200 Speaker 1: might sound, these possibilities are less implausible than they might seem. 391 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:48,720 Speaker 1: So you know the scariest thing about this allegation is 392 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 1: that you can't immediately throw it out, you know what 393 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:55,480 Speaker 1: I mean, It's close enough to things that we know 394 00:25:55,600 --> 00:26:00,840 Speaker 1: to be true that it bears it bears serious consideration. 395 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,160 Speaker 1: Even if even if you know that headline might sound 396 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:10,080 Speaker 1: all red Meatian alarmists. That story doesn't come from you know, 397 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:15,200 Speaker 1: thin air. There's a vast, a vast trove of precedent 398 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 1: behind there, and you know this, the thread of this continues. 399 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:27,000 Speaker 1: In twenty seventeen, an Italian journalist named Elmiano Fittipaldi and 400 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:32,199 Speaker 1: apologies for my Italian pronunciation here, folks. This journalist was 401 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 1: given a leaked document that appeared to be from the 402 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:41,159 Speaker 1: Vatican and it was listing expenses for the care of 403 00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 1: Emmanuela or Landy abroad. It included things like room and board, 404 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:51,560 Speaker 1: as well as guidancological examinations. Now, when I say appeared 405 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 1: to be a Vatican document, we're being careful with our 406 00:26:54,640 --> 00:27:01,960 Speaker 1: language there, because the Vatican one percent vehemently denied that 407 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 1: this document was legit. They called it a false, ridiculous reconstruction. 408 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:12,119 Speaker 1: And you know, I'm still kind of stuck on the 409 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,960 Speaker 1: allegations of an organized abuse ring. It makes me, it 410 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:20,280 Speaker 1: makes me think back when we're talking with Dan, with 411 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:24,359 Speaker 1: Dan Harmon and he actually changed my mind about whether 412 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:28,679 Speaker 1: large scale conspiracies were popular were possible. Do you remember that? 413 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:31,880 Speaker 1: And he's like, look, maybe they'll just tell you can 414 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:32,640 Speaker 1: be in with us. 415 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 2: But you have to eat this baby, right, Yeah, yeah, 416 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 2: I mean it's compromised, right. But when people are compromised, uh, 417 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:41,880 Speaker 2: it's a lot easier to control them. 418 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 1: And this brings us to another potential lead, one that 419 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:50,240 Speaker 1: we will address in full. After a brief word from 420 00:27:50,280 --> 00:28:01,280 Speaker 1: our sponsor, and we're back. It's time to introduce a 421 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:04,640 Speaker 1: character known as Cardinal Ugo Paletti. 422 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:08,400 Speaker 3: Yes, and to discuss Cardinal Pilletti, we have to jump 423 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:11,600 Speaker 3: to two thousand and five when there was a television 424 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:15,920 Speaker 3: program called Who Has Seen? And on that program there 425 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 3: was an anonymous caller who alleged that Emmanuela had been 426 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:25,720 Speaker 3: seized at the behest of someone Cardinal Ugo Pilletti, who 427 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 3: in nineteen eighty three was Vicar General of Rome. This 428 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:33,679 Speaker 3: anonymous caller said, quote on the matter of Emanuela or Landy. 429 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:37,199 Speaker 3: To find a solution to the case, go see who 430 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 3: is buried in the crypt at Saint Apollinaire, Basilica, and 431 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:44,760 Speaker 3: about the favor that Renatino did for Cardinal Pilletti at 432 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 3: the time. 433 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 4: Right. 434 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:55,240 Speaker 1: The caller also heavily implies that the motive behind the kidnapping, 435 00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:59,480 Speaker 1: which they thought it was and the later burial, was 436 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:05,520 Speaker 1: its health, sexual in nature. Now, Cardinal Pilletti passed away, 437 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:09,880 Speaker 1: so we can't get an official statement from him at 438 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:12,840 Speaker 1: this point, but we do know a few more things 439 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:16,560 Speaker 1: about him. We know that back in nineteen ninety he 440 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:21,000 Speaker 1: is the person who greenlit the removal of Dipettus's body 441 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:28,719 Speaker 1: and it's reinterment in the Basilica. This basilica, again is 442 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:34,440 Speaker 1: usually reserved for the burial of senior clerics, not mafio 443 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 1: so crime bosses. And this is also like we learned 444 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:43,959 Speaker 1: about Polletti because of these documents sent to us by 445 00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 1: our source. We want to be completely fair here. A 446 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,000 Speaker 1: lot of this is in English, a lot of it's 447 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:54,600 Speaker 1: in Italian, and we have not been able to verify 448 00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:58,800 Speaker 1: the authenticity of what we were sent, but it's got 449 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:00,120 Speaker 1: some damning stuff in it. 450 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,600 Speaker 2: If it's true, yeah, completely. A lot of it appears 451 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 2: to be some kind of transcript of a conversation where 452 00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:14,200 Speaker 2: the concept of Pialetti being I don't know that there's 453 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:18,400 Speaker 2: some language that's really kind of vague. He's referred to 454 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,720 Speaker 2: as having certain like proclivities kind of you know, I 455 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:26,480 Speaker 2: think the implication being that he likes young girls. There's 456 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 2: also a discussion of hiring kind of high class call 457 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:33,960 Speaker 2: girls as well thrown around in there. But it's not 458 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:37,680 Speaker 2: clear to me, And I did ask the listener to 459 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 2: clarify and to maybe help with some translations, but haven't 460 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:46,080 Speaker 2: heard back since the initial you know, kind of document dump. 461 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:49,280 Speaker 2: I'm not quite sure who's meant to be speaking in these, 462 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:52,880 Speaker 2: but like you said, Ben, it is it is quite damning. 463 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:57,200 Speaker 3: So let's let's talk about the implications here. We'd already 464 00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:02,240 Speaker 3: gone over someone who was very in that basilica, right, 465 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:06,480 Speaker 3: or mafio so fellow de Pettus and or de Petty, 466 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:10,240 Speaker 3: however you say it. And this tip that came through 467 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:14,240 Speaker 3: in two thousand and five is referencing a move that 468 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 3: occurred in nineteen ninety, which is the year that the 469 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 3: mafia fellow de Pettus was killed. Correct, And the burial 470 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:28,360 Speaker 3: like who is buried? That's the thing here, Who is 471 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 3: buried there in the basilica at Santa Paulinair They did 472 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:37,479 Speaker 3: find dozens of sets of bones when they did end 473 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:42,160 Speaker 3: up incurring or looking at the tomb in twenty thirteen, 474 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,080 Speaker 3: So it all it gets a little confusing here, but 475 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 3: essentially it's this person would allegedly be is allegedly saying 476 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:58,760 Speaker 3: that this cardinal had this person killed Emmanuela and then 477 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:03,280 Speaker 3: her bones perhaps moved around to different burial places. It's 478 00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:07,360 Speaker 3: pretty odd, but again, we did find a bunch of bones, 479 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:09,560 Speaker 3: and we're going to keep going on here. We're going 480 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:13,800 Speaker 3: to learn what officially from the Vatican at least, who 481 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:17,200 Speaker 3: those bones were, or how old they were at least, 482 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:20,480 Speaker 3: And this is just something to quickly clarify here. In 483 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,400 Speaker 3: that quote that we read earlier about on the matter 484 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:29,040 Speaker 3: of Emmanuela or Landy, it's referenced a name is referenced, Renatino. 485 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:34,480 Speaker 3: That name is referring back to de Pettus, the mafia 486 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:38,440 Speaker 3: boss that we mentioned earlier there, who is in fact 487 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:42,680 Speaker 3: buried at the Saint Apaullinaire Basilica. So basically, what was 488 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:48,360 Speaker 3: being alleged here in all of this discussion was that 489 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 3: perhaps Renatino or de Pettus the mobster, did a favor 490 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:58,360 Speaker 3: for Cardinal Pilletti, and then Pilletti in turn did a 491 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 3: favor for Renatino, or for some other reason to obfuscate 492 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:05,960 Speaker 3: other bones or the burial of other, you know, people 493 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:09,400 Speaker 3: who were killed, had Renattino moved to that basilica from 494 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:15,800 Speaker 3: where he was first interreed perhaps, I think, is that correct, Ben. 495 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:18,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's about the size of it. The allegation is 496 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:22,920 Speaker 1: that it was a quid pro quo situation. Oh. When 497 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:26,720 Speaker 1: this source first reached out to me, and I believe 498 00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:28,840 Speaker 1: to you as well, Noul, one of the first things 499 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:32,360 Speaker 1: I did was capture images of what this source sent 500 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:34,560 Speaker 1: so I could share it and get us all in 501 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:39,440 Speaker 1: the loop on email instead of me just like telling like, 502 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:42,600 Speaker 1: that's the thing with this stuff, we can't really verify it. 503 00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:45,280 Speaker 1: That's an important point. You know, I may at the beginning, 504 00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:48,959 Speaker 1: but I want to underline that still, if any of 505 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:50,000 Speaker 1: this stuff is. 506 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:50,920 Speaker 3: True, it is. 507 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:56,240 Speaker 1: That's fascinating. And we're following up with this source to 508 00:33:56,280 --> 00:34:02,040 Speaker 1: see what we can learn about the provinces of the 509 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:04,720 Speaker 1: stuff we found here, to see what we can learn 510 00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:08,600 Speaker 1: about the what they see as the latest developments or 511 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:13,759 Speaker 1: unfolding developments. But this paints a picture of Cardinal Ugo 512 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:21,760 Speaker 1: Polletti as sort of a known predator and indeed a satist. 513 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:24,959 Speaker 1: There's an interesting line where they say he was known 514 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:28,799 Speaker 1: for these weaknesses of his as the euphemistically called them, 515 00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:34,359 Speaker 1: and that people also knew he was therefore easy to blackmail, 516 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:39,600 Speaker 1: because like the intelligence agency hunting traps we mentioned earlier, 517 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:42,160 Speaker 1: there was you know, there was a way to get 518 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:48,920 Speaker 1: leverage on this person. He was apparently pretty ruthless. Definitely 519 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:52,480 Speaker 1: in the political sphere. I mean, you think that politics 520 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:55,440 Speaker 1: in your country get nasty, imagine what goes on in 521 00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 1: the halls of the Vatican right where people are jockeying 522 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,719 Speaker 1: for position in one of the most powerful institutions in 523 00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:08,040 Speaker 1: the world. So Pledti played the game well. He was 524 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:12,080 Speaker 1: able to make the right connections apply pressure, but he 525 00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:16,840 Speaker 1: was also due to his alleged activities, he was also 526 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:20,719 Speaker 1: easy to pressure himself because you want to keep these 527 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:26,480 Speaker 1: these kind of despicable actions, you want to keep them secret. 528 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,759 Speaker 1: So there's this allegation that in nineteen eighty nine the 529 00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:35,640 Speaker 1: Judiciary of Italy, a Vatican had names of companies that 530 00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:38,879 Speaker 1: own these phone numbers, and the administrators of these phone 531 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:43,400 Speaker 1: numbers were linked to the mafia. They were under their control, 532 00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:47,240 Speaker 1: and the recordings that were gleaned from these phone numbers 533 00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:52,279 Speaker 1: paint the picture of an organization that is participating in 534 00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:58,320 Speaker 1: human trafficking, providing women and children to their quote high 535 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:04,320 Speaker 1: ranking friends. Essentially that it's a vast network of of 536 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:10,200 Speaker 1: forced sex work and it caters to the elite. That's 537 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,360 Speaker 1: that's again, that's what these documents are saying. 538 00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:18,560 Speaker 3: It's terrible that, you know, it's terrible that we can't 539 00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:22,560 Speaker 3: verify this stuff. It would be amazing if we could 540 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:25,080 Speaker 3: just come out and say, hey, look, this has been confirmed. 541 00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:28,520 Speaker 3: There's action that could be taken now. But we have 542 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:33,160 Speaker 3: to caution anyone who's listening to not think of that 543 00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:37,880 Speaker 3: as fact because we cannot verify any of that stuff 544 00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:38,760 Speaker 3: as of this moment. 545 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:41,800 Speaker 2: No, we can't, and and you know, just to clarify 546 00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:49,319 Speaker 2: to our our source has somewhat clarified that these transcripts 547 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:53,759 Speaker 2: that we're discussing were interviews carried out by this individual 548 00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:57,680 Speaker 2: and a team. But this person is not willing to 549 00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:02,880 Speaker 2: share the identities of any of the any of the interviewees. 550 00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:06,120 Speaker 2: So even if there are accusations being made that are 551 00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:09,600 Speaker 2: very inflammatory and damning, like this stuff about potentially hiring 552 00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:12,960 Speaker 2: sex workers and this notion of Pilletti's kind of proclivities 553 00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:18,960 Speaker 2: and also uh ties to underworld organizations and mob ties, 554 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:23,879 Speaker 2: we don't have the context of understanding who the speaker is. Understandably, 555 00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:27,400 Speaker 2: this individual wants to protect their sources because they're afraid 556 00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:30,880 Speaker 2: that they could actually be in harm's way because of 557 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:35,320 Speaker 2: the power of of of the Vatican. And again we 558 00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:38,760 Speaker 2: we we are not personally as a show accusing anyone 559 00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:41,719 Speaker 2: individually about this, but it's hard to you know, you can't, 560 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:45,760 Speaker 2: we can't just gloss over getting this information. It's it's 561 00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:49,799 Speaker 2: definitely seems like this is a serious amount of work 562 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:54,319 Speaker 2: has gone into this project on this individual side, but 563 00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:58,920 Speaker 2: we were not able to confirm, you know, any of 564 00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:01,000 Speaker 2: this stuff, and because we don't have the information to 565 00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:02,400 Speaker 2: be able to do that, because we don't even know 566 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,719 Speaker 2: who's talking. But I think it's worth mentioning. And in 567 00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:11,200 Speaker 2: the most recent exchange with with Ben and I, there's 568 00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:15,799 Speaker 2: a mention that Polletti, you know, had ties to to 569 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:20,360 Speaker 2: the underworld and to underworld organizations one this person mentioned 570 00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:24,520 Speaker 2: called the Red Brigades UH and the NRA. These are 571 00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:29,239 Speaker 2: terrorists sects, is what this person mentions. And the n 572 00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:33,160 Speaker 2: our Nar was responsible for a massacre, the Bologna massacre 573 00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:37,120 Speaker 2: that killed eighty five people and injured more than two hundred. 574 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:41,200 Speaker 2: But again it's it's it's very difficult to I'm not 575 00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:46,000 Speaker 2: quite sure what this person is, what their angle. Is 576 00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:49,320 Speaker 2: Is it that the terrorist you know angle is more accurate, 577 00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:52,719 Speaker 2: that the crime boss angle is more accurate the sex 578 00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:55,120 Speaker 2: ring angle. It's very difficult to say, and I'm trying 579 00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:57,879 Speaker 2: to We're trying to find out, but it's it's it's 580 00:38:57,880 --> 00:38:59,759 Speaker 2: hard to to kind of pin it down to one 581 00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:03,160 Speaker 2: particular source. But it certainly does seem like there was 582 00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:06,440 Speaker 2: some foul play going on. There's also implications that Paletti 583 00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:10,759 Speaker 2: himself was murdered because of, you know, knowing too much 584 00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:13,160 Speaker 2: and being able to kind of spill the beans after 585 00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:13,800 Speaker 2: he retired. 586 00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:17,280 Speaker 1: Right, Paletti officially died of a heart attack in nineteen 587 00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:22,840 Speaker 1: ninety seven. However, you know, there's plenty of precedent for 588 00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:26,360 Speaker 1: a homicide by what appears to be a heart attack. 589 00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:29,480 Speaker 1: And then also, if we're going to be if we're 590 00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:32,880 Speaker 1: going to completely apply critical thinking here, we have to 591 00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:37,319 Speaker 1: remember that cause of death is ultimately the decision of 592 00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,840 Speaker 1: a medical examiner. God knows, there are conspiracy theories of 593 00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:49,239 Speaker 1: plenty about willfully fallacious medical examinations on bodies, right tail 594 00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:53,239 Speaker 1: as old as time. This isn't over right, There was 595 00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:58,200 Speaker 1: another tomb search, an entirely different tomb, back in twenty nineteen, 596 00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:02,880 Speaker 1: the Orlandi family received an anonymous tip, a brief letter 597 00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:07,080 Speaker 1: that was sent to the Orlandi's lawyer from inside the Vatican, 598 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:11,960 Speaker 1: and it's pretty cryptic. It shows a stone angel at 599 00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:15,840 Speaker 1: an unmarked tomb in the Teutonic Cemetery. This is a 600 00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:19,040 Speaker 1: cemetary that is within the walls of the Vatican. The 601 00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:23,960 Speaker 1: cemetery isn't even accessible to the general public. But on 602 00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:29,560 Speaker 1: this unmarked tomb, someone has kept a red votive candle 603 00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:33,560 Speaker 1: lit only at this tomb, only this specific one, and 604 00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:38,319 Speaker 1: they've been replacing the flowers on a regular basis. There's 605 00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:42,240 Speaker 1: one thing engraved on a marble scroll that the angel 606 00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:46,320 Speaker 1: the statuary holds and it just says the English version 607 00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:51,320 Speaker 1: would be rest in peace. This letter and this cryptic picture, 608 00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:55,719 Speaker 1: of course, came at a time when there were bombshell 609 00:40:56,320 --> 00:41:02,560 Speaker 1: confirmations of long running allegations about sexual abuse within the 610 00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:08,400 Speaker 1: Church and this so part of this is the the timing, 611 00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:15,759 Speaker 1: I think. And then this leads to another another decision 612 00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:21,120 Speaker 1: by the Vatican to investigate grave sites. I believe this 613 00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:22,719 Speaker 1: was in July of last year. 614 00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:26,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, July last year, Vatican City decided that they were 615 00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:29,960 Speaker 3: going to open up two separate tombs, and they're going 616 00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:34,440 Speaker 3: to allow these tombs to be analyzed by forensic anthropologist 617 00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:41,640 Speaker 3: Giovanni Arcudi or Arcutie. It's it's really interesting. So the 618 00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:43,960 Speaker 3: two tombs, one of them was the tomb of the Angel, 619 00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:46,400 Speaker 3: that's the one that was mentioned in that letter. And 620 00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:48,560 Speaker 3: then actually part of that letter, doesn't it say something 621 00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:52,560 Speaker 3: about where the angel points something to that effect within 622 00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:58,359 Speaker 3: that letter referencing the angel's hand. And this one tomb, 623 00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:00,040 Speaker 3: the tomb of the Angel, was meant to contain the 624 00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:05,680 Speaker 3: remains of two princesses, German princesses, Princess Sophie of Oh 625 00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:10,120 Speaker 3: I'm not gonna be able to pronounce this hullinol Woldenburg, Berenstein. 626 00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:13,120 Speaker 3: And the adjacent one, the one that was right next 627 00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:15,360 Speaker 3: to it, was meant to contain the remains of Duchess 628 00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:23,160 Speaker 3: Charlotte Frederica of Mecklenburg Oh Schwerin Schweren. And so check 629 00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:26,319 Speaker 3: this out. There were two princesses, German princesses. That's who's 630 00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:27,920 Speaker 3: supposed to be in these two tombs that are right 631 00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:30,160 Speaker 3: next to each other where this exhumation is going to 632 00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:34,359 Speaker 3: take place. They did the exhumations on the eleventh of 633 00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:39,799 Speaker 3: July twenty nineteen. Here's the deal. Not only did they 634 00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:44,200 Speaker 3: not find the body of IMMANUELA hidden in there, or 635 00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:47,400 Speaker 3: you know, they didn't. They don't think they found that body, 636 00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:50,600 Speaker 3: they also didn't find the bodies of the two princesses 637 00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:51,760 Speaker 3: that were supposed to be buried. 638 00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:57,600 Speaker 1: There seems to be almost a systemic issue with putting 639 00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:03,080 Speaker 1: bodies where they belong in at least those two burial sites, 640 00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:05,960 Speaker 1: the Basilica and the Teutonic Cemetery. 641 00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:09,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, just a few days later, they did find some bodies, 642 00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:14,839 Speaker 3: not whole bodies, parts of bodies of dozens of individuals. 643 00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:19,960 Speaker 3: We're talking thousands of human bones that were found underground 644 00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:24,759 Speaker 3: at the Teutonic College where this burial site, where the 645 00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:29,359 Speaker 3: tombs are located. So how crazy is that? Okay, we 646 00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:32,000 Speaker 3: open these two tombs, those bodies are not there. We 647 00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:35,160 Speaker 3: don't find any evidence of the body that was allegedly here, 648 00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:40,239 Speaker 3: but we did find dozens of other individuals that we 649 00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:43,839 Speaker 3: have no idea of the identities what we did. What 650 00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:47,160 Speaker 3: they did find though, is that those bodies were likely 651 00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:51,680 Speaker 3: prior to the nineteen hundreds. I believe that's what they 652 00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:55,320 Speaker 3: found in this location. This is something that's happened multiple 653 00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:58,520 Speaker 3: times over the course of some of these exhumations, where 654 00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:01,799 Speaker 3: the person that's meant to be found there is not there, 655 00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:05,719 Speaker 3: or is there but with the addition of a bunch 656 00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:08,319 Speaker 3: of other bones, some of them very old. 657 00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:12,879 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And to be clear, we're pointing this out, 658 00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:16,480 Speaker 1: but we're not saying that those are necessarily related to 659 00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:20,080 Speaker 1: the mystery of EMMANUELA or Landy. We have to remember 660 00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:24,239 Speaker 1: that the Vatican and the Catholic Church is an ancient institution. 661 00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:29,320 Speaker 1: There are a lot of people who have passed away 662 00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:34,520 Speaker 1: over the millennia, and this means, you know, if you 663 00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:36,760 Speaker 1: think about it from the other side of the equation, 664 00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:43,040 Speaker 1: it would be unusual not to find strange, unidentified remains 665 00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:48,600 Speaker 1: in a cemetery this old. And at this point the 666 00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:52,319 Speaker 1: mystery remains unsolved. However, Noel, I believe you have been 667 00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:55,080 Speaker 1: in contact with your source and there's an update. 668 00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:59,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, just you know, just in going through this together, 669 00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:02,440 Speaker 2: just a few questions that I had and I hadn't 670 00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:08,160 Speaker 2: heard from this individual since they sent the initial scans, 671 00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:12,200 Speaker 2: and just as we're recording this, hearing back and again 672 00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:14,040 Speaker 2: because of the fact that I'm not sure if this 673 00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:17,680 Speaker 2: person is an investigative journalist or is part of some 674 00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:20,920 Speaker 2: kind of organization that's generally trying to like be whistleblowers. 675 00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:24,280 Speaker 2: It's really not clear, and they were not comfortable telling 676 00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:26,160 Speaker 2: any of that stuff. So's you got to take all 677 00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:29,840 Speaker 2: these documents and this perspective for what it's worth. Like 678 00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:34,000 Speaker 2: we said earlier, but we had mentioned earlier in the episode, 679 00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:39,239 Speaker 2: this crime family or street gang is what this person 680 00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:43,080 Speaker 2: is saying. They were the Magliani gang. And I asked 681 00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:48,000 Speaker 2: if this person's angle on the story was that there 682 00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:52,799 Speaker 2: was organized crime involvement and that that was part of 683 00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:58,600 Speaker 2: a sex trafficking operation that Polletti was essentially leading. And 684 00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:00,600 Speaker 2: I just wanted to clarify if that was what this 685 00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:04,800 Speaker 2: person believes, and they said, yes, I believe it's abundantly 686 00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:08,440 Speaker 2: clear that they had relationships with many people of high importance. 687 00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:13,560 Speaker 2: They supplied these individuals with girls, drugs, arms, cash, and more. 688 00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:16,000 Speaker 2: They knew full well that they would never be prosecuted 689 00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:17,920 Speaker 2: for their crimes as they held in their hands the 690 00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:21,960 Speaker 2: reputations of those who did the judging. And then I 691 00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:26,480 Speaker 2: asked to clarify about the sex trafficking angle, this notion 692 00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:29,480 Speaker 2: of a sex trafficking ring and I believe referring to 693 00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:33,280 Speaker 2: the Magliani gang, this individual says they rose to power 694 00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:37,360 Speaker 2: in the seventies mostly through drug pushing, lotto machine sales, robberies, 695 00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:41,239 Speaker 2: and occasional assassination. As for the sex trafficking, most definitely, 696 00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:46,400 Speaker 2: Pilletti was allegedly using the convent as a cover for trafficking. 697 00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:49,600 Speaker 2: A representatives would bring random girls to the convent. After 698 00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:52,359 Speaker 2: a few weeks, other high officials would come to collect them. 699 00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:55,440 Speaker 2: From there, they would assumedly be brought to the Vatican 700 00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:59,280 Speaker 2: or the neighborhood which surrounded it. And this person believes 701 00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:03,080 Speaker 2: that sometimes after the kidnapping or landy may have been 702 00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:06,800 Speaker 2: brought to that convent, which was called the Handmade Sisters 703 00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:07,719 Speaker 2: of the Immaculate. 704 00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:11,480 Speaker 3: Wow, well that's a lot to take in, Yeah. 705 00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:13,959 Speaker 2: I know, and I off Mike. We talked about whether 706 00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:16,080 Speaker 2: it was even worth mentioning this because it is a 707 00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:19,920 Speaker 2: lot and it's just impossible to verify. But at the 708 00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:22,759 Speaker 2: very least, I think we can take away from this 709 00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:28,080 Speaker 2: that there's something unusual about this case, and it's hard 710 00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:30,560 Speaker 2: to put It's hard for us to put our fingers 711 00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:34,319 Speaker 2: directly on it, but organizations like the Vatican that have 712 00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:37,080 Speaker 2: been around for so long and literally have a whole 713 00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:40,319 Speaker 2: city of which they control, you know, and not to 714 00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:44,960 Speaker 2: mention an entire you know, religious mass. You know, this 715 00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:47,560 Speaker 2: is huge. I mean, everyone just feels that they are 716 00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:52,160 Speaker 2: essentially can do no wrong, even though we know they 717 00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:56,000 Speaker 2: can do wrong and have and there's been verified cases 718 00:47:56,040 --> 00:48:00,680 Speaker 2: of this with the sex abuse obviously, so I just 719 00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:03,960 Speaker 2: thought it was worth mentioning this person's perspective. And there 720 00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:07,279 Speaker 2: are documents that do seem to have an air of 721 00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:10,239 Speaker 2: legitimacy to them, but that's about as far as we 722 00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:10,719 Speaker 2: can take that. 723 00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:13,560 Speaker 3: Well, what we do know that there is a light 724 00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:16,560 Speaker 3: at the end of this tunnel, though dim it may 725 00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:21,040 Speaker 3: be because we do know that Emmanuela's brother that we 726 00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:24,720 Speaker 3: mentioned at the top of the show about the person 727 00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:27,400 Speaker 3: who had a bit of an argument with his sister 728 00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:31,200 Speaker 3: before deciding not to give her a ride, right, so 729 00:48:31,239 --> 00:48:35,319 Speaker 3: she took the bus, he is not convinced of any 730 00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:38,360 Speaker 3: of the I guess official stories that are out there. 731 00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:41,839 Speaker 3: He thinks there's something else that's going on. He has 732 00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:46,200 Speaker 3: organized an online petition. It's attracted over one hundred thousand supporters, 733 00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:50,879 Speaker 3: and the attempt here is to get the Catholic Church 734 00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:54,000 Speaker 3: to appeal to the world headquarters of that institution to 735 00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:57,799 Speaker 3: get them to reveal everything that the institution knows on 736 00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:02,719 Speaker 3: an official level about this disappears. Just whether or not 737 00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:07,280 Speaker 3: they comply right is going to be the issue. 738 00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:11,319 Speaker 1: Right as of now, at least as far as I know, 739 00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:16,000 Speaker 1: the Vatican maintains that it is doing literally everything in 740 00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:20,920 Speaker 1: its power to solve this mystery. Of course, Pietro is 741 00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:25,360 Speaker 1: not convinced, neither are the more than one hundred thousand 742 00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:29,120 Speaker 1: people who signed that petition. And at this point we 743 00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:32,520 Speaker 1: hand it to you, fellow conspiracy realists, what do you 744 00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:37,280 Speaker 1: think which of these conspiracy theories? Which of these theories really, 745 00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:42,319 Speaker 1: if any, seem most plausible. Is this a case of 746 00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:45,400 Speaker 1: someone who ran away? Is this a case of someone 747 00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:49,880 Speaker 1: who is kidnapped and murdered? And if so, what makes 748 00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:54,040 Speaker 1: you ascribe to a particular perspective. Let us know. You 749 00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:56,880 Speaker 1: can find us on Facebook, you can find us on Instagram, 750 00:49:57,040 --> 00:49:59,440 Speaker 1: you can find us on Twitter. We especially love to 751 00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:02,800 Speaker 1: shout out our Facebook community page. Here's where it gets crazy. 752 00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:06,279 Speaker 3: Yes, join us there to talk about each of these episodes, 753 00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:09,640 Speaker 3: this one in particular. I guarantee you there will be 754 00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:12,279 Speaker 3: a lot of us talking about theories behind all of 755 00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:15,080 Speaker 3: this and posting things, so join us there. If you 756 00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:16,759 Speaker 3: don't want to do that, give us a phone call. 757 00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:22,720 Speaker 3: Our number is one eight three three st d WYTK. Again, 758 00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:24,879 Speaker 3: I've been talking to a lot of you. I've been 759 00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:27,040 Speaker 3: listening to a lot of messages. I've still got about 760 00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:29,440 Speaker 3: fifty to go through and I'll be doing that tonight, 761 00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:32,399 Speaker 3: but then we'll be caught up, so we're gonna need 762 00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:35,400 Speaker 3: more calls, So please call in with your thoughts on 763 00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:37,359 Speaker 3: this and any other topic you'd like us to cover 764 00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:37,960 Speaker 3: in the future. 765 00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:40,600 Speaker 1: And if done of that quite bags are badgers. You 766 00:50:40,680 --> 00:50:44,600 Speaker 1: can always contact us directly via our good old fashioned email. 767 00:50:44,880 --> 00:51:05,640 Speaker 2: We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com. 768 00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:08,520 Speaker 3: Stuff they Don't want you to Know is a production 769 00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:13,160 Speaker 3: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 770 00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:16,960 Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.