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Speaker 1: Hi everyone. So net zero you've probably heard it in

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Speaker 1: the news recently. It's when an entity balances out its

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Speaker 1: greenhouse gas emissions with other activities that store, reduce, and

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Speaker 1: or offset those emissions, so in the end, what you're

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Speaker 1: putting up into the airs effectively well nothing. These entities

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Speaker 1: can be countries. For example, last year, the UK put

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Speaker 1: into law a net zero by twenty fifty target, and

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Speaker 1: earlier this year, China made headlines when it announced the

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Speaker 1: twenty sixty net zero target, followed soon thereafter by South

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Speaker 1: Korea and Japan. But these aren't the only ones. A

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Speaker 1: rapidly growing list of countries have announced plans for net zero,

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Speaker 1: and you can find extensive coverage on this on countries

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Speaker 1: ambitions throughout be net research. But these entities can also

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Speaker 1: be companies. Google, Amazon, and Apple have all set ambitious

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Speaker 1: net zero targets. Microsoft has gone even further with a

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Speaker 1: carbon negative target. But it's not just tech. Groups of

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Speaker 1: companies in what seems like every sector have made their

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Speaker 1: climate ambition. Is known, but why now? Why are we

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Speaker 1: seeing more and more companies make these commitments. This week

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Speaker 1: on the show, We've got benf corporate sustainability analyst Kyle Harrison.

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Speaker 1: He'll tell us about what's driving corporate net zero targets,

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Speaker 1: the why now, what net zero actually means in practice,

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Speaker 1: and the bumpy right ahead for those going down this road.

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Speaker 1: Our discussion is based on report titled Corporate net Zero

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Speaker 1: Targets Primer Jump on the bandwagon being if users can

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Speaker 1: get this report on BNF dot com, the BENF mobile app,

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Speaker 1: and the Bloomberg terminal as a reminder being to stop

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Speaker 1: provide investment or strategy advice, and you can hear the

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Speaker 1: full disclaimer at the end of the show. I'm Mark

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Speaker 1: Taylor and you're listening to Switch on the BNF podcast.

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Speaker 1: Hey Kyle, thank you for coming on the show today. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: thanks for having me. You know, it seems like every

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Speaker 1: time I look at the news, I see a new

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Speaker 1: net zero announcement, whether it be a country or a company.

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Speaker 1: We're here today to talk about net zero, So Kyle,

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Speaker 1: can you just start us off? What is net zero?

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Speaker 1: Net zero is is a company taking all of its

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Speaker 1: greenhouse gas emissions across its entire value chain down to zero,

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Speaker 1: effectively in a lot of ways, balancing out its emissions

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Speaker 1: with some type of activity that reduces or stores those emissions.

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Speaker 1: Is that the same as when I hear a country

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Speaker 1: say net zero as well? On paper? Um, it should

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Speaker 1: be the same things. So you know, there's there's a

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Speaker 1: bunch of different terminology that companies are using now when

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Speaker 1: they set a net zero target or equivalent. Right. So, um,

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Speaker 1: you hear companies say things like carbon neutral or climate

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Speaker 1: positive or carbon negative, and a lot of those things

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Speaker 1: are used interchangeably, those phrases, but by definition they actually

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Speaker 1: all mean different things. So when a company sets a

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Speaker 1: net zero target, it should really again apply to their

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Speaker 1: entire value chain for all greenhouse gas emissions. But if

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Speaker 1: you think about something like carbon neutral, that's only carbon dioxide, right,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't include other greenhouse gases like nitrous oxide and methane.

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Speaker 1: And then something like carbon negative actually involves taking your

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Speaker 1: emissions below zero. So beyond just your emissions netting out

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Speaker 1: at zero, you're investing in additional technologies or purchasing carbon credits,

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Speaker 1: um that are effectively netting those emissions out below zero.

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Speaker 1: So with a lot of these definitions, some of them

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Speaker 1: say carbon, some of them say emission. So that distinction

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Speaker 1: was really great for you to just point out. It

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Speaker 1: looks like a lot of them are measuring the absence

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Speaker 1: of emissions or carbon. And there's one term that you

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Speaker 1: pointed out in the research note that we're talking about

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Speaker 1: today and its climate positive. What does climate positive mean?

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Speaker 1: So the key point, the key thing to keep an

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Speaker 1: eye out for when you look at the terminology is

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Speaker 1: is really the use of carbon or climate. Right, So

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Speaker 1: when you think about any target or any phrase that

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Speaker 1: uses carbon, again, that just applies to carbon dioxide. When

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Speaker 1: the company phrases their target as climate positive or climate negative,

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Speaker 1: which is effectively the same thing that applies to all

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Speaker 1: greenhouse gas emissions, or at least it should on paper, right.

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Speaker 1: So climate positive is very similar to a carbon negative

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Speaker 1: goal or a carbon positive target, but again it just

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Speaker 1: extends to methane and things like nitrous oxide as well

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Speaker 1: as carbon dioxide. So that's kind of the key differentiator.

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Speaker 1: But if you think about this, I mean from an

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Speaker 1: investor standpoint, it becomes really different coal to actually sift

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Speaker 1: through all these targets and compare them apples to apples, right,

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Speaker 1: investors actually need to go ahead and look at these

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Speaker 1: companies sustainability reports and those announcements specifically to see what

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Speaker 1: those targets entails. And that's definitely one of the things

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Speaker 1: that is potentially holding this market back at the current time.

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Speaker 1: Let's get into the standards and and certification in a second,

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Speaker 1: but really, can we go back to why our companies

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Speaker 1: doing this at all? Is it pr is it having

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Speaker 1: an edge in their competitors, Is it the consumer value proposition,

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Speaker 1: or does it make them more investable or a combination

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Speaker 1: of the all of the above. It's a combination of

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Speaker 1: all the above. I would say that the biggest driver

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Speaker 1: is definitely that investor pressure, right, So increasingly investors want

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Speaker 1: to put their money in companies that mitigate their susceptibility

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Speaker 1: to what we call climate risk and transition risk. So

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Speaker 1: climate risk is your exposure to these physical climate related

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Speaker 1: events like forest fires and droughts and electricity grid blackouts.

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Speaker 1: And then transition risk is as we pivot to a

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Speaker 1: low carbon economy and you have more low carbon regulation,

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Speaker 1: you have changing consumer preferences. Companies again become increasingly susceptible

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Speaker 1: to these types of risks. So by setting a net

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Speaker 1: zero goal or an emission reduction strategy more broadly, companies

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Speaker 1: actually make themselves safer to invest in because they're mitigating

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Speaker 1: their exposure to some of those risks. If I'm an

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Speaker 1: oil and gas company and I start investing in clean

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Speaker 1: power or electric vehicles, like some of these oil majors

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Speaker 1: are already doing, those are businesses that we think are

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Speaker 1: going to you know, make up a larger part of

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Speaker 1: the low carbon economy moving forward, more so than you know,

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Speaker 1: fossil fuels. So that's, you know, one great example of

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Speaker 1: how companies can kind of pivot and be more attractive

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Speaker 1: from an investment standpoint. So net zero targets are really

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Speaker 1: kind of the cream of the crop or the gold

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Speaker 1: standard when it comes to emission reductions goals. So if

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Speaker 1: you want to make an investor happy, really the best

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Speaker 1: way to do it is to set a net zero target.

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Speaker 1: What I would say, though, and you mentioned this earl

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Speaker 1: of mark, is there's definitely a degree of one upsmanship here.

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Speaker 1: So via a large technology company or utility or an

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Speaker 1: oil and gas company, one of your biggest competitors sets

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Speaker 1: in net zero goal. Um, that's driven a lot of

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Speaker 1: other companies to set targets of their own to kind

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Speaker 1: of keep pace with their competitors. So really it is

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Speaker 1: a combination of many things. But I would say satiating

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Speaker 1: investors and making investors happy is the biggest driver, followed

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Speaker 1: by you know the fact that it's a great way

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Speaker 1: to one up your peers and sustainability, so net zero

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Speaker 1: peer pressure. So actually that leads me to another thought

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Speaker 1: because if I'm looking at all of these kind of

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Speaker 1: in theory and isolation, I'm watching the news cycle and

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Speaker 1: I'm seeing different companies make net zero targets. Which industries

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Speaker 1: are kind of leading in these target making endeavors. It's

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Speaker 1: a bit cliche, but I would say that technology companies

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Speaker 1: are definitely the leaders here. So they're not as emissions

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Speaker 1: intensive as again companies in the oil and gas sector

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Speaker 1: or utilities, but technology companies are setting to targets that

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Speaker 1: need to be achieved much earlier than other sectors. So

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Speaker 1: if you look at some of the leading tech companies

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Speaker 1: that have set these goals like Google, Microsoft, Facebook, and Amazon,

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Speaker 1: their targets are expected to be met in and that's

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Speaker 1: ten years or twenty years earlier than the Paris Agreement.

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Speaker 1: But it's also ten or twenty years earlier than most

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Speaker 1: other net zero targets that are being set in other sectors.

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Speaker 1: And why is this? They're just more ambitious, I would

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Speaker 1: say part of it is the fact that they're they're

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Speaker 1: just setting more ambitious goals. The other important thing to

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Speaker 1: note is a huge portion of the carbon footprints for

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Speaker 1: tech companies is what we would classify as scope too,

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Speaker 1: and that means it's your indirect emissions that come from

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Speaker 1: the electricity grid. So the most effective way to reduce

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Speaker 1: your scope to emissions is to purchase clean energy. So

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Speaker 1: that's kind of my long winded answer of saying they

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Speaker 1: have a one size fits all solution to reduce a

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Speaker 1: large portion of their carbon footprint. But the last thing

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Speaker 1: I want to highlight that really makes the big tech

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Speaker 1: companies stand out is there again setting net zero targets

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Speaker 1: that also address their Scope three emissions, and those are

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Speaker 1: your indirect emissions that come up and downstream along the

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Speaker 1: value chain. So if you think of a company like Apple,

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Speaker 1: that's from its product manufacturing upstream, so those large companies

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Speaker 1: like Fox con and Taiwan Semiconductor, Whereas for an oil

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Speaker 1: and gas company, their Scope three emissions largely come from

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Speaker 1: the use of their products downstream, so think of things

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Speaker 1: like burning road fuel and jet fuel. So a lot

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Speaker 1: of tech companies are setting scope three targets as well.

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Speaker 1: That actually ultimately end up at zero, and that's something

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Speaker 1: that a lot of other sectors have not yet done.

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Speaker 1: So they deserve high marks in that regard as well.

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Speaker 1: I've been wondering why now. I still can't quite get it.

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Speaker 1: Is it more pressure you feel like you hear these

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Speaker 1: announcements all the time, as Dana said, right, is it

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Speaker 1: more pressure from investors? Or is it the one upsmanship

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Speaker 1: you know that's driving all these announcements now? Or did

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Speaker 1: Paris and the I p c C in the one

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Speaker 1: point five degree scenario have a huge impact? I mean,

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Speaker 1: is this the resulting catalyst from that? So on the

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Speaker 1: investor from you have massive asset managers and investors that

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Speaker 1: are setting what we would call net zero finance dimissions.

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Speaker 1: And I am aware that I'm throwing another term into

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Speaker 1: the mix, heer, I apologize, But asset managers like black

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Speaker 1: Rock and banks like Morgan Stanley are now making commitments

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Speaker 1: where the emissions of their portfolios by will also be

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Speaker 1: net zero um and again we call that net zero

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Speaker 1: finance dimissions. Okay, So if you want to stay in

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Speaker 1: you gotta you gotta perform exactly, And a lot of

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Speaker 1: these companies are joining their specific initiatives for the investment

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Speaker 1: community UM that that focus on these areas. So a

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Speaker 1: great example is what we would call the Climate Action

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Speaker 1: one hundred plus and that's a group of now over

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Speaker 1: five hundred investors and asset managers that are pledging to

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Speaker 1: get their portfolio companies to report better environmental, social and

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Speaker 1: governance data but also to reduce their emissions. So again,

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Speaker 1: you know, a lot of it is being catalyzed by

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Speaker 1: that investor pressure. But the other exciting component to this is,

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Speaker 1: and you know, Danny, you mentioned this in the beginning,

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Speaker 1: you're starting to see a lot of countries now putting

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Speaker 1: forward legislation for net zero um So, in the last

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Speaker 1: month we've seen China, South Korea, and Japan all put

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Speaker 1: forward legislation for a net zero target. And what that's

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Speaker 1: really gonna do is it's going to kind of open

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Speaker 1: the door and really trail blaze the way for the

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Speaker 1: private sector within those countries to go ahead and set

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Speaker 1: in net zero goes of their own. Because China is

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Speaker 1: going to need to expedite it's retirement and fossil fuels,

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Speaker 1: it's going to need to expedite it's clean energy, it's

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Speaker 1: e V fleet rollouts, all those types of things are

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Speaker 1: going to benefit private sector players. You know, that's further

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Speaker 1: incentive for these companies to set targets of their own. Well, so, yeah,

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Speaker 1: let's talk a little bit about accountability, because you referenced

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Speaker 1: kind of two things just now, which is one the

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Speaker 1: net zero targets that countries are making, which invariably does

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Speaker 1: have to do with the companies that operate within it,

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Speaker 1: and to financial community, which is demanding more information and

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Speaker 1: presumably a lot of these companies to join and make

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Speaker 1: commitments with third parties that are actually kind of at

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Speaker 1: least systematizing this stuff or making it transparent in a

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Speaker 1: way that they can use. So where do you think

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Speaker 1: most of the pressure is and is going to come from?

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Speaker 1: Will it be the finance community, will it be governments,

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Speaker 1: or will it be something else? A lot of it

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Speaker 1: will again come from from the finance community, but you

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Speaker 1: do have a number of initiatives, many of which are

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Speaker 1: competing with each other, that are now being rolled out

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Speaker 1: to help standardize, you know, this net zero movement. So

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Speaker 1: I guess we can kind of start from the broadest level.

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Speaker 1: So the u N has convened what they call Race

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Speaker 1: to net Zero. That's now a group of over eleven

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Speaker 1: corporations that have set some form of a net zero

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Speaker 1: target mark and Dan, I think you guys will will

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Speaker 1: get this analogy. But you know when you're growing up

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Speaker 1: and basically all the kids in in the United States,

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Speaker 1: they go ahead and they play Little League baseball, right,

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Speaker 1: and everyone is accepted into that Little League Baseball league.

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Speaker 1: That's kind of the way that I would think of

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Speaker 1: Race to Zero. It doesn't really have any stringent rules.

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Speaker 1: Any company can join UM, and you have a lot

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Speaker 1: of kind of mom and pop shops that are part

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Speaker 1: of that UM. So that's kind of at the broadest level.

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Speaker 1: And one of the things that Race to Zero wants

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Speaker 1: to do is kind of help move the needle on policy.

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Speaker 1: So if you can kind of show up to the

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Speaker 1: negotiating table as a consortium of over a thousand companies UM,

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Speaker 1: the hope there is that it can open the door

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Speaker 1: for more access to clean energy buying and things like

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Speaker 1: e V procurement. But then you also have a number

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Speaker 1: of actually private set of lead initiatives. So two ones

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Speaker 1: that I would highlight our Amazon's Climate Pledge UM and

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Speaker 1: they even named their new arena in Seattle after this

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Speaker 1: climate Pledge, So that's a group of companies that have

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Speaker 1: planned or planned to go net zero. Then you also

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Speaker 1: have transformed to net zero, which is rolled out by Microsoft.

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Speaker 1: So these types of corporate lead initiatives are you know,

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Speaker 1: partially driven by you know, a need for better PR.

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Speaker 1: So as a company, I can align myself with a

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Speaker 1: with a leader like Microsoft or Amazon, and that really

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Speaker 1: does help from a PR standpoint. But what I would

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Speaker 1: say that's really exciting about these these private sector lead

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Speaker 1: initiatives is um they facilitate collaboration and that's one of

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Speaker 1: the reasons they've been created. So for example, Amazon went

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Speaker 1: ahead and purchased electric vehicles from Mercedes Benz, which is

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Speaker 1: also part of the Climate Pledge, and they said that

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Speaker 1: that transaction was actually facilitated by these two companies joining

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Speaker 1: this initiative together. You know, they're planning for very similar

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Speaker 1: collaboration to happen between the companies. So these private sector

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Speaker 1: initiatives are are really exciting. But the one that I

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Speaker 1: think any relevant stakeholder and investor, or a corporate sustainability practitioner,

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Speaker 1: the one that everyone should be keeping an eye out on,

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Speaker 1: is the net zero framework that's going to be rolled

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Speaker 1: out by the Science Based Targets Initiative. So they're gonna

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Speaker 1: be basically create a methodology in the next year or so. UM,

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Speaker 1: that's gonna lay out a clear pathway for Again, what

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Speaker 1: is net zero? So if you want to set a

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Speaker 1: net zero target as part of the Science Based Targets initiative,

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Speaker 1: it needs to meet certain criteria. But they're also laying

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Speaker 1: out clear guidelines on how you actually achieve that goal.

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Speaker 1: So what type of carbon credits you can use, what

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Speaker 1: type of technologies you can use, how you have to

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Speaker 1: reduce your gross emissions before you can use any of

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Speaker 1: these technologies. All of that type of stuff is going

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Speaker 1: to be made very clear, um and laid out within

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Speaker 1: this Science Based Targets framework. UM. And I think you

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Speaker 1: know to your point data about accountability. UM, that's going

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Speaker 1: to go a long way and making sure that these

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Speaker 1: companies are held accountable. Two questions, why are you confident

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Speaker 1: in the Science Based Targets initiatives in particular? And can

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Speaker 1: you give us a preview of what some of those

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Speaker 1: things are carbon credits are or whatever they're called in

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Speaker 1: there that a company can use to actually reach the target.

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Speaker 1: So the reason I'm confident in the Science Based Targets

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Speaker 1: Initiative is because you know, we have historical data. I mean,

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Speaker 1: this is an initiative that has existed for for several

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Speaker 1: years now, right, and at this point you have over

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Speaker 1: a thousand companies that have pledged to set what we

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Speaker 1: call a science based target, and that means that they

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Speaker 1: will reduce their emissions in line with a well below

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Speaker 1: two degree scenario, which is outlined in the Paris Agreement.

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Speaker 1: So theoretically, on paper, the way the Science Based Targets

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Speaker 1: Initiative works is if all the countries in the world

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Speaker 1: they're not doing their part to get us well below

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Speaker 1: two degrees, what if every single private sector player in

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Speaker 1: the entire world went ahead and set a target of

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Speaker 1: their own. That's the way that the Science Based Targets

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Speaker 1: Initiative is expected to work. This campaign, this initiative has

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Speaker 1: more momentum than any other sustainability commitment that currently exists

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Speaker 1: out there. So this year you've had over four companies

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Speaker 1: pledged to set one of these goals. For the net

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Speaker 1: zero component of the Science Based Targets Initiative, it's basically

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Speaker 1: going to be taking those goals that companies are setting

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Speaker 1: in line with the Parish trajectory and basically taking it

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Speaker 1: a step further. Um. So, Mark, you talked about kind

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Speaker 1: of the ways in which the Science Based Targets Initiative

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Speaker 1: outlines that you can hit your goal. First, inform a

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Speaker 1: a company that would join this initiative, they need to

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Speaker 1: go ahead and they need to reduce their gross emissions

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Speaker 1: in line with that Powish trajectory. Um. And again that's

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Speaker 1: something that any company with a science based target already

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Speaker 1: has to do. And then only then once you've kind

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Speaker 1: of reduced your gross emissions by you know, again pivoting

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Speaker 1: your your business model away from emissions intensive practices or

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Speaker 1: investing in low carbon technologies. Once you've done those types

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Speaker 1: of things, you can go ahead and purchase carbon credits

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Speaker 1: to kind of net out the remainder of your emissions

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Speaker 1: and take them to zero. But the key differentiator that

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Speaker 1: the Science Based Targets Initiative lays out is only carbon

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Speaker 1: credits that actually remove carbon from the atmosphere or sequester

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Speaker 1: or carbon can be used to achieve that target. So

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Speaker 1: if you think about a company like Walmart that just

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Speaker 1: made this announcement a couple of months ago that they're

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Speaker 1: going to basically planned several million acres of forest UM

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Speaker 1: and also restore I think a million square miles of ocean.

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Speaker 1: That type of activity will go ahead and create carbon

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Speaker 1: credits that again store sequester carbon. So those credits would

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Speaker 1: be accepted under the science Based Targets initiative. But if

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Speaker 1: I purchase a carbon credit that simply offsets my mission,

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Speaker 1: say from a clean energy project or clean cookstone distribution,

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Speaker 1: those would not be considered a viable means to achieve

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Speaker 1: your science based target. So they're gonna set again a

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Speaker 1: very stringent methodology for what is and what isn't accepted

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Speaker 1: to achieve these goals UM. And again, I think that's

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Speaker 1: going to turn this net zero landscape that we you know,

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Speaker 1: talk about in our report and we define as the

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Speaker 1: wild West of sustainability targets UM. It's going to take

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Speaker 1: this from a wild West to kind of again a

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Speaker 1: really standardized emission reductions movement. Are planting trees and doing

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Speaker 1: those sorts of projects in addition to actually working on

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Speaker 1: your businesses more direct emissions to what they do day today.

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Speaker 1: Is that proving to be increasingly popular? It is if

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Speaker 1: you look at the existing landscape of of carbon credits

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Speaker 1: UM in the market. Forestry projects, which we broadly abbreviate

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Speaker 1: as red plus because there's so many different kind of

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Speaker 1: projects that fit into this category, including agriculture. Red plus

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Speaker 1: projects make up about a quarter of the total carbon

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Speaker 1: offset market today. That sector is growing faster than any

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Speaker 1: other one. So energy generation projects, you know, from clean energy,

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Speaker 1: those are the most common projects that exist, but a

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Speaker 1: lot of those are legacy projects and they've existed for

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Speaker 1: for you know, a decade now or more than a

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Speaker 1: decade um, and they actually came from compliance carbon markets

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Speaker 1: long ago, and some of those credits have been earmarked

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Speaker 1: for corporations to use. So that's the biggest sector now.

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Speaker 1: But if you look at what's growing the fastest, it's

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Speaker 1: definitely forestry projects um. And you know, there's the opportunity

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Speaker 1: to generate carbon credits from forestry projects all around the world.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's definitely one of the exciting um and

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Speaker 1: one of the biggest drivers for for companies to look

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Speaker 1: at this segment of the mark it. You mentioned ocean

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Speaker 1: as well, So is that like areas where they're seaweed

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Speaker 1: and seaweed is seen as a absorbing carbon or is

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Speaker 1: there something else there? So I would say that anything

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Speaker 1: related to ocean is kind of a niche part of

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Speaker 1: the carbon markets now, you know. Again, I think Walmart's

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Speaker 1: announcement was pretty groundbreaking. They want to be what they

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Speaker 1: call a regenerative company moving forward. I don't think that

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Speaker 1: ocean and water related carbon projects are going to be

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Speaker 1: this this huge sector moving forward. I think again, there's

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Speaker 1: gonna be a lot more focus on on four stream

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Speaker 1: agriculture because there's a huge opportunity to sequester and store

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Speaker 1: large amounts of carbon. But yeah, that's definitely you know,

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Speaker 1: A way that companies can kind of again serve as

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Speaker 1: a trailblazer in this area is is purchasing carbon credits

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Speaker 1: from brand new projects that you know, other companies aren't

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Speaker 1: already looking into. One of my favorite episodes we've done

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Speaker 1: it was a few months ago with you and it

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Speaker 1: was about carbon offsets and we talked about red plus

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Speaker 1: in there, and we talked about the difficulty of certifying

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Speaker 1: these projects. I imagine it's the same thing here, right,

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Speaker 1: Who is going to be certifying these carbon credits that

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Speaker 1: the company says they have or that an investor wants

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Speaker 1: to see is proven. So in terms of carbon credits,

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Speaker 1: all the certification will be carried out by the four

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Speaker 1: major registries that kind of preside over the voluntary carbon market.

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Speaker 1: So the Verified Carbon Standard is the largest. Then you

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Speaker 1: have the Gold Standard, the Climate Action Reserve, and the

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Speaker 1: American Carbon Registry. So those four markets will again really

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Speaker 1: make sure that every carbon credit that is that is

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Speaker 1: created comes from a verified, legitimate project. So companies will

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Speaker 1: will continue to rely on those registries. But there's going

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Speaker 1: to need to be a channel of communication opened between

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Speaker 1: some of these net zero initiatives that I've talked about,

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Speaker 1: like the Science Based Targets initiative and Transformed to net

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Speaker 1: zero and some of these other corporate lead initiatives. There's

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Speaker 1: going to need to be, you know, again an open

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Speaker 1: channel of communication so that when a registry says that

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Speaker 1: a carbon credit is permitted, that those net zero initiatives

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Speaker 1: are made aware of that, and therefore they can go

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Speaker 1: ahead and and basically put their seal of approval on

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Speaker 1: a company achieving in net zero target um. So that's something,

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Speaker 1: you know, a very important development that will need to

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Speaker 1: see in the market moving forward. Have you seen startups

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Speaker 1: pop up, you know to either subcontract to these net

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Speaker 1: zero initiatives or are the initiatives, you know, doing this

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Speaker 1: in house or how's that going to work? No startups

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Speaker 1: that are focused specifically on net zero. If you again,

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Speaker 1: if you want to go back to the carbon markets,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of really exciting things happening to further

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Speaker 1: improve the measurability of carbon credits. So you know, if

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Speaker 1: I plant that tree in that rainforest, actually you know,

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Speaker 1: actively measuring how much carbon that tree is storing and

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Speaker 1: also you know, making sure that that tree is still

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Speaker 1: there ten years from now. UM. So you have really

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Speaker 1: cool companies like Pachama UM that are looking at light

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Speaker 1: R and SAT to like imagery and artificial intelligence and

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Speaker 1: and all these emerging technologies two more actively measure carbon

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Speaker 1: storage within the in the carbon markets. UM. And then

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Speaker 1: you also have a company like Nori that's awful offering

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Speaker 1: very similar technology for the agriculture sector. So again, if

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Speaker 1: you think of something like regenerative agriculture being able to

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Speaker 1: actively measure carbon sequestration from those processes, that's what these

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Speaker 1: startups are focused on. And I think you know again

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Speaker 1: they're those companies operate in the carbon markets. But the

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Speaker 1: carbon markets are going to be so important for hitting

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Speaker 1: a net zero goal that there's bound to be overlap, right.

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Speaker 1: The other thing I would just highlight is there's gonna

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Speaker 1: be a big reliance on on carbon capture technologies for

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Speaker 1: companies to hit in net zero. So a great example

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Speaker 1: is Occidental Petroleum, one of the big US oil majors.

435
00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:55,119
Speaker 1: They set a really exciting and groundbreaking net zero target

436
00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:58,119
Speaker 1: just last week. The reason it's groundbreaking is because it

437
00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:01,560
Speaker 1: addresses their Scope one and Scope twomissions, which actually come

438
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:05,080
Speaker 1: from their direct operations, but then it also includes their

439
00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:07,879
Speaker 1: Scope three emissions and taking those down to zero. And

440
00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:11,920
Speaker 1: one of the interesting parts of Occidentals announcement is they're

441
00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:15,280
Speaker 1: taking what they call a contrarian approach to hitting their

442
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:17,560
Speaker 1: net zero goal um. And that means they're actually they're

443
00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:20,199
Speaker 1: not going to pivot away from fossil fuels at all. Um.

444
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:24,040
Speaker 1: They're gonna rely heavily on carbon capture and carbon removal

445
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:27,679
Speaker 1: technologies to hit that goal. Their their target ears is

446
00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:31,200
Speaker 1: a ways away, right, it's not until so a lot

447
00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:33,480
Speaker 1: can change between now and then. But I think a

448
00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:36,080
Speaker 1: lot of companies are really, you know, putting a lot

449
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:39,640
Speaker 1: of money and betting a lot on carbon removal technologies

450
00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:43,280
Speaker 1: like carbon capture utilization and storage coming within cost parity

451
00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:45,040
Speaker 1: in the next couple of years. Are you saying that

452
00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:48,520
Speaker 1: differs from other oil and gas companies in that the

453
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:51,760
Speaker 1: other companies are pivoting away from oil and gas as

454
00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:55,240
Speaker 1: a course strategy. Exactly, and and just for some backgrounds,

455
00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:59,040
Speaker 1: so European oil majors have really lead when it comes

456
00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:02,880
Speaker 1: to setting net zero targets. And you know, again this

457
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 1: is kind of where this terminology issue comes into play.

458
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:08,879
Speaker 1: In reality, most oil and gas companies are setting carbon

459
00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:13,320
Speaker 1: neutral targets, so they're pledging to reduce their carbon emissions

460
00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:16,560
Speaker 1: specifically from their own operations so their scope one in

461
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:20,879
Speaker 1: their scope to emissions. Again, you have leading European oil

462
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:25,960
Speaker 1: majors like Shell, Totel, VP any all these companies are

463
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:29,240
Speaker 1: are setting carbon carbon neutral targets for their scope one

464
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:32,160
Speaker 1: in scope to emissions. But you do have a handful

465
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:36,040
Speaker 1: of oil and gas companies that are also setting net

466
00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:39,719
Speaker 1: zero targets that address their scope three emissions. Um So,

467
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:43,560
Speaker 1: Equinor and Repsol are the two leading again European oil

468
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:46,240
Speaker 1: majors that have done this, and now you have Occidental

469
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:48,520
Speaker 1: um in the US that have done the same thing.

470
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 1: Um So these companies are really kind of paving the

471
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:55,399
Speaker 1: way moving forward. But if you look at you actually

472
00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:58,280
Speaker 1: look at how some of these companies plan on on

473
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:01,119
Speaker 1: achieving these goals. Yeah, Mark, like you mentioned, it's going

474
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:03,800
Speaker 1: to be a pivot away from their traditional core business.

475
00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:06,960
Speaker 1: So Shell, you know, has made you know, they've announced

476
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:09,280
Speaker 1: that they aim to be the world's largest power company

477
00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:11,760
Speaker 1: in the next couple of years. And they've invested heavily

478
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:16,000
Speaker 1: in clean energy and electric vehicles and distributed energy UM

479
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 1: and a bunch of other exciting areas. You know, bp

480
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:20,720
Speaker 1: UM has has said that they're going to be moving

481
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:23,200
Speaker 1: away from oil entirely. And then you have a company

482
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:27,200
Speaker 1: like Total that two months ago they signed the largest

483
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:31,320
Speaker 1: corporate power purchase agreement, so they signed they signed an

484
00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:34,960
Speaker 1: agreement to purchase three giga watts of solar power in

485
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 1: Spain to offset their scope to emissions. UM in Total

486
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,920
Speaker 1: has a much broader renewable energy goal where they want

487
00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,439
Speaker 1: to be a huge renewable energy developer as well, so

488
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:47,200
Speaker 1: they want to sell power to utilities. So again, these

489
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 1: companies are are really making holistic changes in the way

490
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:52,960
Speaker 1: they conduct business. I think that you know, the oil

491
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 1: and gas sectors is going to be impacted in this

492
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:58,520
Speaker 1: way more than any other sector. Really, when I'm thinking

493
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:00,880
Speaker 1: about the net zero targets in the benieth that are announcing.

494
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:03,879
Speaker 1: You know, you previously mentioned about Amazon, and this has

495
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:05,880
Speaker 1: been a pretty big year for Amazon. COVID has meant

496
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 1: a lot more packages being delivered. And meanwhile, um, I

497
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:12,720
Speaker 1: think I did see that announcement just last week regarding

498
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,919
Speaker 1: some of their recent initiatives in the carbon space. So

499
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:20,160
Speaker 1: is that initiative something that's happening, you know, at a

500
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,200
Speaker 1: very senior level that you know, Jeff Bezos ultimately is

501
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 1: handling very closely, or is it something that's kind of

502
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:28,880
Speaker 1: deeper within the rest of the business is being given

503
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,840
Speaker 1: to the individual business units to handle. I think this

504
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 1: is a thematic kind of internal area that we've that

505
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:38,880
Speaker 1: we've seen within corporations, and you know, it applies to Amazon,

506
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 1: but it also applies to those oil and gas companies

507
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 1: that we were just talking about. Um. So just for

508
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 1: some context, when the company sets a clean energy goal

509
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:51,960
Speaker 1: or a broader emission reductions target, you know, you need

510
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:55,639
Speaker 1: input from all different you know, various internal departments to

511
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:57,959
Speaker 1: achieve that goal, right, So you need to get your

512
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:01,399
Speaker 1: accounting department on board. You need data from your facilities team,

513
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:03,919
Speaker 1: you need your PR team on board. But kind of

514
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:08,680
Speaker 1: the central team that is carrying out the sustainability strategy

515
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:12,879
Speaker 1: is your sustainability department, right um, and they're working with

516
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:16,119
Speaker 1: all these other departments in some way, shape or form.

517
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:19,000
Speaker 1: The key difference between a net zero target and these

518
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 1: targets that I was just discussing is to your point

519
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:25,040
Speaker 1: in that you need executive leadership to carry out these

520
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 1: types of goals. So again, for a company that is

521
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:31,760
Speaker 1: heading is working on hitting in net zero target, that

522
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:34,040
Speaker 1: means that they're going to make need to make holistic

523
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:36,560
Speaker 1: changes in the way that they do business. So for

524
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,439
Speaker 1: the oil and gas sector, that means moving away from

525
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:44,159
Speaker 1: fossil fuels potentially. For utilities, that means moving into renewables.

526
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,919
Speaker 1: For tech that means offering more software and other products

527
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:51,040
Speaker 1: to help their customers decarbonize. And all these types of

528
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:53,640
Speaker 1: huge changes that you know filter all the way down

529
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 1: even to R and D and product those really can't

530
00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 1: be carried out unless you have executive level level leadership

531
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 1: on board. Amazon is a great example of that. So

532
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:06,800
Speaker 1: they've developed this Climate Pledge initiative, but they also now

533
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,120
Speaker 1: have this Climate Pledge fund. Right, it's this two billion

534
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,160
Speaker 1: dollar fund where they're going to invest directly in startups

535
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:15,480
Speaker 1: and other exciting technologies that are going to help companies

536
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 1: achieve net zero and Jeff Bezos is intimately involved in

537
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:21,920
Speaker 1: that entire process. He just announced the first round last week,

538
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:26,399
Speaker 1: right exactly exactly, So having that executive level buying is

539
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:28,960
Speaker 1: really important. And we actually we looked at this in

540
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 1: our report. But I mentioned the Climate Action one hundred

541
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 1: plus before, and that's investors that are pressuring their portfolio

542
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 1: companies to decarbonize. And I realized this is a bit confusing,

543
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:44,480
Speaker 1: but within the Climate Action one hundred plus, the portfolio

544
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 1: companies that are facing the most heat to decarbonize are

545
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 1: these one hundred and sixty one companies that have been

546
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 1: deemed as Focus companies, and they're considered to be the

547
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 1: heaviest emitting companies in the world, So they're the ones

548
00:28:57,320 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 1: that are facing the heat from investors the most. And

549
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:02,360
Speaker 1: a lot of these companies have set in net zero targets.

550
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 1: I mean if you kind of look company by company

551
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 1: at those one hundred and sixty one Focus companies, over

552
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 1: three quarters of those companies now have a board seat

553
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 1: that is specifically focused around climate um So you now

554
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 1: have board level representation that's thinking about planning and executing

555
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 1: on a sustainability strategy. So I think that right there

556
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 1: is a is a testament to how important that executive

557
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 1: level leadership is with sustainability in general. But I would

558
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 1: say for net zero, it's it's not a nice to have,

559
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:33,920
Speaker 1: it's it's a requirement. With all of these net zero

560
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 1: targets being made at the company level, I want to

561
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 1: know whether or not this is going to make a

562
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 1: big difference or a small difference if these companies actually

563
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 1: do end up getting to their net zero targets in

564
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,719
Speaker 1: the timelines that they outline. So if you look at

565
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 1: the six leading European oil majors that have set a

566
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 1: again a carbon neutral goal for their scope one in

567
00:29:55,880 --> 00:30:01,720
Speaker 1: scope to emissions, so that's Shell, Totel, b Any, Repsol,

568
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,720
Speaker 1: and equinor for them to just reduce their Scope one

569
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:07,480
Speaker 1: and Scope two emissions, it would result in two hundred

570
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 1: and sixty five million metric tons of c O two

571
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 1: removed on an annual basis, and again very similar to

572
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 1: to Spain's annual missions. If you broaden that out and

573
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 1: you look at the scope three emissions of the oil

574
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,480
Speaker 1: and gas sector, You're looking at several orders of magnitude

575
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 1: more decarbonization from those six companies alone. So the impact

576
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 1: is is huge. And just to throw out one more

577
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 1: number here, so I mentioned those one hundred and sixty

578
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 1: one focused companies that are outlined in the Climate Action

579
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 1: one hundred. So they actually they estimate that those companies,

580
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 1: those one hundred and sixty one focused companies are responsible

581
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 1: for eight of industrial missions in the world. So again,

582
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:51,960
Speaker 1: a huge amount of impact can be made by getting

583
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 1: the private sector to set net zero targets. So like

584
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 1: a lot of Spains, a lot of Spains, a lot

585
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,320
Speaker 1: of Spains, a lot of Frances I love, I love

586
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:03,720
Speaker 1: my country comparisons. There you go. I guess I have

587
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 1: one more question is this was a primery, this report,

588
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:08,560
Speaker 1: So if you haven't looked at it yet, everybody, please

589
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 1: go look at it. It's really fantastic. What are the

590
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 1: next questions or next reports you want to do in

591
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 1: this in this theme? So I think the thing that

592
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:19,480
Speaker 1: will continue to do, at at a minimum in the

593
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 1: short term is as new companies set net zero targets, which,

594
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 1: like Danta mentioned, is at this point basically a weekly occurrence.

595
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:30,719
Speaker 1: We want to continue to make those those company level comparisons. Again,

596
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:34,720
Speaker 1: for an investor, there's there's so much terminology, there's such

597
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 1: little lack of regulation currently that it becomes very difficult

598
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,440
Speaker 1: for investors to compare these targets apples to apples. So

599
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 1: I think, you know, one of the things that we

600
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 1: want to continue to do is is look at these

601
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:48,160
Speaker 1: companies and see who's setting the most ambitious goal and

602
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 1: and why is that the case. I would say that

603
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 1: the next kind of big thing that we're waiting for

604
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:56,240
Speaker 1: is again that that frameworker that methodology to be laid

605
00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 1: out by the Science Based Targets Initiative, because that's going

606
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 1: to really kind of push this into hyper drive. It's

607
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 1: going to expedite a lot of companies to start making

608
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 1: these goals and them again, it's gonna go along wayne

609
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 1: kind of creating and standardizing targets. So those are kind

610
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 1: of the main things. And then I would just highlight

611
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 1: in the report, we look at the ways that leading

612
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:21,320
Speaker 1: tech companies, materials companies, utilities, and oil and gas companies

613
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:24,040
Speaker 1: can achieve their targets right, because it's it's different for

614
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 1: every single sector. But I would just add that, of course,

615
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 1: you know a lot of the research that BNF does

616
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 1: on the technology side and our forecasts, UM, a lot

617
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:35,720
Speaker 1: of that plays really well into the strategies and the

618
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 1: thought processes of companies that have set in the zero target,

619
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 1: and they're gonna need to rely on a lot of

620
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:43,600
Speaker 1: the things that be NF writes about. So that's something

621
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 1: that will continue to monitor as well as as technology

622
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 1: costs come down, things like carbon credits get boosts and legitimacy,

623
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 1: all those types of things are prompts for us to

624
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 1: continue to look into this more Peppered throughout the report,

625
00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 1: you have several mini tables that include leaders in laggards

626
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:02,959
Speaker 1: and each sector. Should we expect to see some rankings coming.

627
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 1: I would certainly love to do that. I will say

628
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 1: even making those tables alone was very difficult, and I

629
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,800
Speaker 1: think we did have to leave the important caveat under

630
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 1: each of these tables that all these companies really are

631
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 1: technically leaders, right UM, And when we call a company

632
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 1: a laggerate here, they're a laborate among the again eight

633
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 1: or nine oil and gas companies that are setting a

634
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:26,200
Speaker 1: carbon neutral goal, or the five big tech companies that

635
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:29,480
Speaker 1: are really kind of trailblazing here. Um, so I think

636
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 1: that's important to do. But yeah, I think I think

637
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:36,400
Speaker 1: it's essential again for investors and sustainability professionals to get

638
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 1: a better idea of if I look at five targets,

639
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 1: which of these is the best and which of these

640
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 1: is the worst. And I think that we are you know,

641
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:46,080
Speaker 1: BNF is well positioned to make a statement on that. Kyle,

642
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us. Happy, happy to talk to you guys.

643
00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 1: Today's episode of Switched On was edited by Rex Warner

644
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 1: with Grace Stoke Media. Bloombergnia F is a service provided

645
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 1: by Bloomberg Finance LP and its affiliates. This recording does

646
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 1: not constitute, nor should it be construed as investment advice,

647
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:11,400
Speaker 1: investment recommendations, or a recommendation as to an investment or

648
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 1: other strategy. Bloombergenia should not be considered as information sufficient

649
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 1: upon which to base an investment decision. Neither Bloomberg Finance

650
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 1: LP nor any of its affiliates makes any representation or

651
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:24,480
Speaker 1: warranty as to the accuracy or completeness of the information

652
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:27,240
Speaker 1: contained in this recording, and any liability as a result

653
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:39,279
Speaker 1: of this recording. Did express the disclaim