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Speaker 1: It sounds like I always come in like we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about what I want to talk about. So

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Speaker 1: just so you know, I tried to start it with

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Speaker 1: Diana today and I got nothing.

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Speaker 2: I know, it was like air quality, So who cares?

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Speaker 1: How about that air quality?

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Speaker 3: Huh?

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Speaker 1: How about the one thing I'm excited for? Well, okay,

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Speaker 1: excited is not the word I'm interested in? Is Indiana Jones.

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Speaker 1: This weekend, I'm gonna I got a hot take about

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Speaker 1: Indiana Jones. I'm gonna share it with you all now,

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Speaker 1: hot tape. Here comes the hate mail. I believe personally

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Speaker 1: that in the late nineties, if they were going to

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Speaker 1: continue the Indiana Jones franchise in the in the mid

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Speaker 1: to late nineties, they should have made a new Indiana

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Speaker 1: Jones movie with a brand new actor. And I know

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Speaker 1: that sounds crazy, because of course, Harrison Ford is Indiana Jones,

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Speaker 1: but let me throw this out to you. One of

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Speaker 1: the big influences for Indiana Jones was James Bond. Yes,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of people thought Sean Connery is James

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Speaker 1: Bond and no one else ever can be. And now

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Speaker 1: it's very normal that the franchise of Bond continues as

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Speaker 1: the actor changes, and honestly, I would have rather seen

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Speaker 1: twenty Indiana Jones movies with a different actor every three

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Speaker 1: or four movies than this long, continuous story about Indiana

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Speaker 1: Jones getting old and who passes the torch to and

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Speaker 1: all this stuff. I don't know, haven't seen Diala Destiny

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Speaker 1: yet as of this recording. And Harrison Ford is untouchable.

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Speaker 1: How could you fill his shoes in any part? But again,

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Speaker 1: I think that is only true until you do it,

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Speaker 1: and then you're like, Okay, there's a new Indiana Jones.

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Speaker 1: I would just I would take that over this. I

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Speaker 1: I think I.

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Speaker 2: Agree because we've talked about this before. It's like the

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Speaker 2: American James Bond could have been the American James Bond,

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Speaker 2: and I kind of like that. But also, like, you know,

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Speaker 2: we have a theater background. We're used to, We're more

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Speaker 2: used to and more fine with people being like, this

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Speaker 2: is my production of Hamlet and it's a different guy

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Speaker 2: playing Hamlet. Like deal with it. You know, it's rarely

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Speaker 2: the same guy. But I think that's kind of a

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Speaker 2: cool idea because then you get to see I don't

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Speaker 2: want someone to try to be Harrison Ford. Of course

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Speaker 2: that's what's good about James Bond is that they all

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Speaker 2: had their own take are their own. They brought something

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Speaker 2: to the table for James Bond that made him very

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Speaker 2: distinct for their James Bond, their particular Bond. So I

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Speaker 2: think that would have been cool for Jones as well,

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Speaker 2: But that's not what we did. We want to watch

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Speaker 2: him get old and feeble. I guess.

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Speaker 1: About feeble. That man can take a punch still.

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Speaker 2: I mean, Harrison before you could beat my ass, Harris,

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Speaker 2: for it shows.

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Speaker 1: Us that you know, eighty something ain't nothing but a number.

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Speaker 2: He's doing great.

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Speaker 1: He's doing great.

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Speaker 2: He's good at shrinking, shrinking.

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Speaker 1: Speaking of digging up bold history, how's that? Hey, come on,

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Speaker 1: We've done worse transitions than that.

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Speaker 2: Very true.

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Speaker 1: Speaking of things belonging in a museum, I would.

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Speaker 2: Love a museum of hookups. Yeah, just like a museum hookups.

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Speaker 2: And it's just like all all these Actually it's the

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Speaker 2: Ridiculous Romance Museum. I mean basically, yeah, this is all

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Speaker 2: these ridiculous connections.

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Speaker 1: Currently accepting funders patrons for the Ridiculous Romance Museum.

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Speaker 2: Foundation money for you will finally have Ridiculcon as our

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Speaker 2: first right ribbon cutting event.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll have to have like, you know, an attached

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Speaker 1: hotel or something.

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Speaker 2: Right, I mean, at least when nearby.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's got to be. It's got to be part

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Speaker 1: of it because we're going to be responsible for everything

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Speaker 1: that happens in there.

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Speaker 2: Oh damn.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, ridiculon is going to get weird, you know, right,

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Speaker 1: Well I hope so yeah, I mean, but specifically the

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Speaker 1: ridiculous Romance branch, the track for Ridiculous Romance, Like, it's

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Speaker 1: gonna be a lot of hookups, I think, yeah, going on, Yep, yep,

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Speaker 1: it's going to be a real, a real Winnaretta singer

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Speaker 1: Web of Romances.

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Speaker 2: Yeay, there it is.

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Speaker 1: We made it thirty eight minutes and the record.

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Speaker 2: On our last episode, we told you all about Winneretta

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Speaker 2: singer Slash, the Princess to Paulignac, who was a patron

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Speaker 2: and champion at the Arts and Public housing. She bankrolled

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Speaker 2: some of the most iconic classical music and operatic works

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Speaker 2: of our time.

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Speaker 1: Not bad, but in.

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Speaker 2: That episode we kind of skipped over her many lesbian liaisons.

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Speaker 2: The most interesting part the best yadayada. But that's just

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Speaker 2: because she hooked up with some really amazing people, and

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Speaker 2: everyone that she messed with has a very interesting story

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Speaker 2: and a lot of crazy romances in her own and

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Speaker 2: there's a lot of fun overlap, and it's complicated going on,

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Speaker 2: and it's all worth exploring. Yeah, so we had to

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Speaker 2: make it its own little episode. So join us as

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Speaker 2: we take a marathon tours through Winnaretta singer Paulignac's a

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Speaker 2: little Black book.

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Speaker 1: Oh boy, let's go.

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Speaker 2: Hey, their friends come listen. Well, Eli and Diana got

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Speaker 2: some stories to tell. There's no match making a romantic tips.

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Speaker 3: It's just about ridiculous relation shift, although there might be

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Speaker 3: any type of person at all, and abstract concept on

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Speaker 3: a concrete wall. But if there's a story worth a

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Speaker 3: second glance, ridiculous romance.

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Speaker 1: A production of iHeartRadio, all right.

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Speaker 2: And also we're doing this in order of who win

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Speaker 2: a Redit dated, so order of who she dated. What

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Speaker 2: we're talking about.

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Speaker 1: This is like a bunch of little This is almost

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Speaker 1: a whole bunch of mini episodes, pretty much about the

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Speaker 1: individual romances that branched off of everyone that Winaretta dated. Basically, Yes,

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Speaker 1: a real spider web of lesbianism.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a Charlie Day conspiracy chart right, get your

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Speaker 2: red thread out, be ready. Because a lot of these

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Speaker 2: names overlap and years later they had an affair with

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Speaker 2: somebody who also had an affair with somebody and so on.

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Speaker 1: This is one of those I think we have our

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Speaker 1: own distinct episode styles. This is one of those Diana Yep,

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Speaker 1: complicated names, just so many names.

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Speaker 2: I don't know why I'm always the one I know.

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Speaker 1: I don't think it's the way you researched. I think

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Speaker 1: it's just literally the ores you end up with.

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Speaker 2: Maybe, although I do, I do get in Wikipedia rabbit

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Speaker 2: holes where I'm like, let me click on this, let

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Speaker 2: me click on this, let me click on this person,

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Speaker 2: and I find a lot of things very interesting. So okay,

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Speaker 2: So the first name on our list is Olga Demyer.

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Speaker 2: Winneretta was seeing her from nineteen oh one to nineteen

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Speaker 2: oh five, and Olga and Winneretta had quite a lot

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Speaker 2: in common because Olga also married a prince in eighteen

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Speaker 2: ninety two. It did not work out, and they were

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Speaker 2: divorced in eighteen ninety nine. Well, like Winneretta's first marriage.

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Speaker 1: And this is so old. Winneretta's like mid thirties at

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Speaker 1: this point, right.

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Speaker 2: She was born in eighteen sixty five, right, Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: A month after the divorce was finalized, Olga married a

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Speaker 2: photographer named Adolph Demyer.

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Speaker 1: Adolf the popular name in nineteen.

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Speaker 2: Thirty somehow fell off sharply after nineteen forties. But he

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Speaker 2: was a baron. He could give Olga respectability in society

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Speaker 2: again after her divorce. Okay, and he was gay, so

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Speaker 2: she could go her own way in sexual relationships.

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Speaker 1: Man, listen to the story, and I'm like, was everyone

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Speaker 1: gay in Europe in the late I mean.

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Speaker 2: There was actually somebody who wrote one of these ladies

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Speaker 2: that I'm talking about, wrote about like, I think there's

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Speaker 2: more people like me than we're willing to admit.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Sure, and I think that's very true. Like it was.

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Speaker 2: It's really just about like at the time, I was

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Speaker 2: more I guess, especially if you're in Paris and stuff,

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Speaker 2: Sure you're like a little more free to experiment. Adolph

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Speaker 2: actually wrote in his unpublished autobiography that he told Olga quote,

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Speaker 2: marriage based too much on love and unrestrained passion has

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Speaker 2: rarely a chance to be lasting, whilst perfect understanding and companionship,

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Speaker 2: on the contrary, generally make the most durable union. Oh

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Speaker 2: well said, which I don't disagree.

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Speaker 1: I guess, yeah, I wouldn't say that like marriage based

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Speaker 1: on love and understanding passion rarely has a chance to

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Speaker 1: be lasting. And just saying, you know, different strokes.

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Speaker 2: For difference, right, Yeah, that sounds right.

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Speaker 1: And he's like, I definitely like different strokes, you know

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Speaker 1: what I'm saying.

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Speaker 2: Well, for them, that kind of marriage totally worked because

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Speaker 2: they found true companionship and platonic love. Just like the

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Speaker 2: de Polignacs. They had a very good relationship.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so not uncommon back then for these fancy types.

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Speaker 1: A lesbian and a gay man get married, right, so

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Speaker 1: they can you know, they both got their beard right, Like,

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Speaker 1: we are living under the guise of respectable married couple

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Speaker 1: and we're still getting to go get what we want

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Speaker 1: and nobody's jealous exactly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think we mentioned this last time,

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Speaker 2: but they were called lavender or mauv marriages.

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Speaker 1: Sure, so. Adolph Demeyer was dubbed the Debusy of photography.

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Speaker 1: He snapped impressive post portraits of everyone from John Barrymore

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Speaker 1: and Mary Pickford and Charlie Chaplin all the way to

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Speaker 1: King George the Fifth and Queen Mary not of fancy names.

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Speaker 1: He later became a fashion photographer for little magazines called

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Speaker 1: Vogue and Harper's Bizarre. In the book De Meyer, his

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Speaker 1: biographer Philippe Julienne wrote that quote without Olga, Adolf would

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Speaker 1: have remained merely a fashionable decorator, or a snub who

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Speaker 1: took photographs, or a homosexual ballet fan. And indeed he

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Speaker 1: was all of these. He also points out that Olga

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Speaker 1: was the one who inspired Adolf to learn from great

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Speaker 1: painters and also to get him involved in this world

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Speaker 1: where he ended up at like the two most brilliant

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Speaker 1: courts of this era, Edward the Seventh and the ballet

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Speaker 1: dancer Diaga Lev he talked about last time. So Adam

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Speaker 1: de Meyer, because of Olga ends up in all the

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Speaker 1: right places. And I mean Olga was already in artists

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Speaker 1: viwse right. She posed for painters Giovanni Baldini, James McNeil, Whistler,

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Speaker 1: if you remember these guys, and they also became a

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Speaker 1: huge influence on Adolph as well. So really through Olga

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Speaker 1: that Adolph like became Yeah, he incredit person that he was.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, apparently like the way he framed his photographs in

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Speaker 2: the way people were posed and the backgrounds like were important,

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Speaker 2: like you would find esthetics, places to take his po

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Speaker 2: you know, stuff like that, and that all came from

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Speaker 2: the painters that was on Speci.

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Speaker 1: Just copy, my friends, you'll really go places.

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Speaker 2: Olga was also an amateur woman's champion fencer. She briefly

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Speaker 2: worked for a Paris newspaper, writing a society column. She

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Speaker 2: also wrote a novel that was pretty roughly panned by critics,

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Speaker 2: not great. And of course, like we said, she had

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Speaker 2: her own lovers in her marriage, one of which was

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Speaker 2: Violet Trifusus, who Whineretta would also date in the nineteen twenties.

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Speaker 2: Violet was the daughter of Alice Keppel, who was King

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Speaker 2: Edward the seventh's favorite mistress. And that's kind of funny

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Speaker 2: because Olga was the king's god daughter.

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Speaker 1: Oh.

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Speaker 2: In fact, her mother was a bit of a wild

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Speaker 2: child herself, and some people speculated that Olga was actually

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Speaker 2: King Edward's illegitimate daughter. I mean, checks out to me,

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Speaker 2: I know, right, it should be funny if she was

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Speaker 2: being with the daughter of her mom's boyfriend.

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Speaker 1: I guess Violet was the daughter of King Edward's mistress

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Speaker 1: and Olga, who dated Violet, was the king's god daughter

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Speaker 1: and maybe his daughter with someone else.

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Speaker 2: Lord, but a lot of scholars have decided that's not

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Speaker 2: very likely. Oh yes, guess, and Edward did give her

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Speaker 2: a lot of financial and social protection through her life,

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Speaker 2: probably because she was his god daughter. But you know,

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Speaker 2: that's what gave rise to the speculation. I guess.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So Olga loved to party, kind of a wild

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Speaker 1: party girl. She's also like a little a little spiteful.

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Speaker 1: She kind of had an attitude, a little bit of

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Speaker 1: a tude.

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Speaker 2: I think the era demanded it a little is the

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Speaker 2: wit of the day was so much about like being

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Speaker 2: a little smack yeah, and saying the most cutting thing that.

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Speaker 1: You can think of, right right before somebody cuts you,

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Speaker 1: exactly yeah. Violet Trefusis once wrote that Olga had quote

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Speaker 1: a vicious tongue. Now, eventually Olga became addicted to cocaine,

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Speaker 1: and this just kind of pushed her further away from

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Speaker 1: respectable society and Phillip Julian again in the book, Demeyer

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Speaker 1: wrote that quote people only visited her because they could

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Speaker 1: be sure to find a pipe of opium or a

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Speaker 1: sniff of cocaine. We've all had that friend.

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Speaker 2: They only show up right when you see the weed guy.

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Speaker 1: Mm now. Olga died on January sixth of nineteen thirty one,

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Speaker 1: right after a stint in a rehab center, and now interestingly,

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Speaker 1: Adolph Demyer, her husband, would die also on January sixth

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Speaker 1: in nineteen forty six, He died in Los Angeles. After

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Speaker 1: her death, he got romantically involved with a young man

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Speaker 1: named Ernest Frolick, who he hired as his chauffeur and

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Speaker 1: then later adopted as his son, which is not an

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Speaker 1: uncommon way for gay couples to legally make their loved

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Speaker 1: ones the next of kin back in the day.

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Speaker 2: Such a strange thing they have to do, right, But

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's what you had to do right, if

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Speaker 2: you wanted to leave, if you wanted them to inherit

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Speaker 2: anything right.

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to imagine, like us, spending our whole lives together,

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Speaker 1: you and I and then you know, we're one hundred

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Speaker 1: and fourteen years old. The time's coming. Let's say, Oh,

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Speaker 1: they won't let me leave you all my stuff, so

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Speaker 1: I'm going to adopt you as my daughter.

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Speaker 2: Like very weird.

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Speaker 1: It's so weird, but that's that was the only path

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Speaker 1: they had. That's wild and unacceptable.

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Speaker 2: Very true, because we're talking about two adults trying to

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Speaker 2: like do their life. Who cares?

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Speaker 1: And somehow it's less weird for you to be legally

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Speaker 1: father and son than it is for you to be

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Speaker 1: just a couple in love with each other.

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Speaker 2: So that's the story of Olga Demayer, one of Winneretta's lovers.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, tangled Web.

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Speaker 2: Now her next lover has a little overlap with Olga,

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Speaker 2: she's kind of seeing them at the same time. Okay,

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Speaker 2: And this is Ethel Smith, who is a British composer. Now,

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Speaker 2: Ethel had several love affairs with women throughout her life,

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Speaker 2: but her my most enduring relationship was actually with her

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Speaker 2: lover and creative partner, Henry Bennett Brewster, who was likely

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Speaker 2: Ethel's only male partner. But they were just like seriously

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Speaker 2: a thing together.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 2: She once wrote to him, quote, I wonder why it

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Speaker 2: is so much easier for me to love my own

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Speaker 2: sex more passionately than yours. I can't make it out

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Speaker 2: for I am a very healthy minded person. Oh that

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Speaker 2: poor girl, which I mean it kind of shows you, like,

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Speaker 2: you know, all these women had kind of an interesting

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Speaker 2: way of seeing themselves. I guess because they are products

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Speaker 2: of their times, so they see themselves as sexually deviant

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Speaker 2: and perverted in a way, but also like it's natural

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Speaker 2: and I don't know why it matters, so that you know,

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Speaker 2: they're kind of torn. It's a contradictor.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's got to be. When your own

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Speaker 1: intrinsic nature goes against everything you've ever learned about how

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Speaker 1: things are supposed to work, then you're stuck in this

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Speaker 1: place like, wait a minute, this seems wrong. But also

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Speaker 1: it's not not. I mean I very much feel in

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Speaker 1: my bones that it's not. Yeah, and still today that's

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Speaker 1: going on.

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Speaker 2: Well, Ethel and Henry, you know, we're pretty serious together,

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Speaker 2: serious enough that they wanted to live in a menaj

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Speaker 2: Autois with Henry's wife Julia, who Ethel was super into

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Speaker 2: had a con crush on, but Julia was not into it.

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Speaker 2: Classic polyamory issue, I guess. So that led to a

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Speaker 2: lot of heartache that made its way into one of

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Speaker 2: Ethel's most famous compositions, the opera The Wreckers.

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Speaker 1: The Wreckers wr e Reckers.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the records.

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Speaker 1: That's cool. It sounds like a punk band right apparent.

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Speaker 2: She wrote some very great comic operas, so I also

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Speaker 2: listened to them. Ethel was the composer and Henry was

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Speaker 2: the librettis. Leah Broad, in her article titled Everything You

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Speaker 2: Need to Know about Ethel Smith's The Wreckers, wrote that

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Speaker 2: Ethel also fell in love with Winneretta in nineteen oh

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Speaker 2: three while she was composing this opera, and her exciting

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Speaker 2: new passion is as palpable in the opera as her

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Speaker 2: heartbreak is later Whenaretta started kind of pulling off toward her.

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Speaker 2: And then Leah writes quote when Smith had difficulties getting

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Speaker 2: The Wreckers performed later down the line, she mused that

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Speaker 2: it was perhaps because everything associated with Winneretta was faded

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Speaker 2: to end in disaster, Oh damn, which kind of speaks

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Speaker 2: to how it must have ended between the two of them. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: little acrimonious.

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Speaker 1: Maybe right, But actually it might have just been Ethel's

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Speaker 1: gender that really kept her work from being produced, because

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Speaker 1: she was consistently hit with all these double standards by critics.

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Speaker 1: You know, go figure in the art community, oji little

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Speaker 1: male dominated when she wrote things that were like stirring,

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Speaker 1: these thrilling compositions they criticized her music for not being

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Speaker 1: soft and womanly, so she would come back and write

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Speaker 1: some delicate melodies and critics said, well, they're not as

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Speaker 1: good as what the male composers are doing, so you know,

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Speaker 1: classic story. It's no exhausting, very exhausting bullshit. All that considered,

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Speaker 1: it's not really surprising that Ethel really strongly identified with

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Speaker 1: the suffragette cause she in fact composed the theme song

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Speaker 1: for them, the March of the Women. Now, Ethel fell

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Speaker 1: absolutely head over heels in love with the leading suffragist,

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Speaker 1: Emmeline Pankhurst, and Ethel's credited with teaching Emmeline to throw

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Speaker 1: stones at politicians windows. In nineteen twelve, awesome Now, over

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Speaker 1: one hundred suffragists, including Ethel, were arrested for stone throwing,

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Speaker 1: and Ethel spent two months in prison for this. And

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Speaker 1: one day her friend, the author Thomas Beecham, went to

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Speaker 1: visit her in prison, and he saw a bunch of

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Speaker 1: suffragettes marching in the prison yard singing the March of

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Speaker 1: the Women, and Ethel was leaning out of the window

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Speaker 1: conducting them with a toothbrush. Love awesome sight to see,

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Speaker 1: so fun, I mean terrible, I shouldn't be imprisoned, right.

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Speaker 2: But no, I just but yeah, that indomitable spirit like

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Speaker 2: eat my shorts. Yeah, we're doing this well.

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Speaker 1: Ethel also revealed the terrible conditions of this women's prison.

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Speaker 1: It was infested with cockroaches, including the hospital wing, which

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Speaker 1: is just the last place you want a bug infestation,

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Speaker 1: I know now. Ultimately, authorities decided to let Ethel go

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Speaker 1: early for being quote mentally unstable, crazy lady, get her

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Speaker 1: out of here, okay.

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Speaker 2: I was like, I don't know if that it refers

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Speaker 2: to her being a lesbian, uh huh. And they were like,

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Speaker 2: get her out of this place with all these ladies

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Speaker 2: because that's not good. Or if they were like, oh,

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Speaker 2: she's talking, like get her out of here, she's gonna

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Speaker 2: say more things that make us look bad. I don't know.

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Speaker 2: No indication that she was actually mentally unstable.

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Speaker 1: Right, And they didn't lock her up in a mental

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Speaker 1: health facility. Instead, they were just like, lady, you're crazy,

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Speaker 1: get out of prison, go back into the real world.

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Speaker 1: We don't want you here. You're too crazy for prison.

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Speaker 1: You belong in society.

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Speaker 2: Well. Ethel Smith also had an affair with Violet Gordon Woodhouse,

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Speaker 2: who lived with four husbands and what was dubbed the

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Speaker 2: Woodhouse Circus, and that is another listener's suggestions that we're

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Speaker 2: hoping to get.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, oh yeah.

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Speaker 2: Also, according to the Queer Incyclepedia of Music, dance and

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Speaker 2: Musical Theater, Ethel Smith met Oscar Wilde's older brother Willie

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Speaker 2: Wilds on the train on the way to Ireland one

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Speaker 2: day and got engaged to him, like on the train,

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Speaker 2: a very whirlwind sort of thing. But she also broke

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Speaker 2: it off within three weeks. So I wish there was

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Speaker 2: more information about that, because that seems like such a weird,

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Speaker 2: like out of character thing for her to do.

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Speaker 1: She's like, I just really want to be Oscar wilde sister.

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Speaker 2: Maybe maybe that was it.

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Speaker 1: The time with Willy, and was like, I just don't

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Speaker 1: like Willie.

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Speaker 2: It might be because Willy was apparently kind of.

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Speaker 1: Oh I thought she just didn't like Willie, you know

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Speaker 1: what I mean? Oh, that's right, or Willy's Willie.

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Speaker 2: Little Willy.

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Speaker 1: He called it big WILLI he said, this is a

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Speaker 1: big Willie style. It's the Willennium.

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Speaker 2: I love it. Also, at the ripe old age of

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Speaker 2: seventy one, Ethel Smith fell in love with the author

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Speaker 2: Virginia Woolf didn't they all who described it as quote

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Speaker 2: like being caught by a giant crab. Oh my god,

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Speaker 2: Virginia has a me shit to say such time. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: so Virginia did not return this crush, but the two

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Speaker 2: women did become friends and they exchanged a lot of

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Speaker 2: friendly letters. Okay, despite the sexism that she was dealing

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Speaker 2: with throughout her career, Ethel Smith was the first woman

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Speaker 2: to receive a Dame hood for her service to culture.

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Speaker 2: That's pretty cool. But before you decide, okay, great, dust

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Speaker 2: off your hands. Women are fine and equal. Now, just

401
00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:35,119
Speaker 2: know that Ethel Smith's opera Dervolve, which was mounted in

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Speaker 2: nineteen oh three, was the only opera by a woman

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Speaker 2: composer ever produced at the Metropolitan Opera in New York

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Speaker 2: until more than a century later. Oh when they produced

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Speaker 2: Kaija Sariajo's La more de lan in twenty sixteen.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: So literally one hundred and three years later, they finally

408
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Speaker 2: were like, I guess this one's good enough for us.

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Speaker 1: Man, I can't believe not a single woman wrote a

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Speaker 1: good opera between nineteen oh three and twenty sixteen. What

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Speaker 1: a coincidence?

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Speaker 2: How weird? What were these ladies doing.

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Speaker 1: Try writing a good opera next time, women. Damn well,

414
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Speaker 1: let me show you how it's done.

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Speaker 2: Fuck you now, I'm angry, all right, let me let

416
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Speaker 2: me cool off. Yeah, I'm starting to get mad, right,

417
00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:25,040
Speaker 2: let me cool off. Well, these ladies are giving us

418
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Speaker 2: a lot to talk about. So before we get to

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Speaker 2: Romain Brooks, Brinado, Burgotti, and the rest, let's take a

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Speaker 2: quick break and we'll be right back after this. All right,

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Speaker 2: welcome back to Winnaretta Singer's Little Black Book. Everybody.

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Speaker 1: So, starting in nineteen oh five, probably right around the

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Speaker 1: time that Winneretta started cooling off on Ethel Smith, she

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Speaker 1: had a fling with the painter Romayne Brooks. And this,

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Speaker 1: this is gonna be the toughest one to tell you about,

426
00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:59,480
Speaker 1: succinctly because Romain just had an insane life, all right. Romaine, Well,

427
00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:01,520
Speaker 1: first that while she had a terrible childhood, she had

428
00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:04,639
Speaker 1: this emotionally abusive mother. She had a mentally unstable and

429
00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:09,959
Speaker 1: physically abusive brother, so definitely a rough household. But her

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Speaker 1: parents ended up fostering her out to another family, but

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Speaker 1: then they stopped making payments to them. Fortunately, the foster

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Speaker 1: family chose to keep caring for her anyway, Like, we're

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Speaker 1: not going to throw this kid on those streets just

434
00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:25,640
Speaker 1: because your parents suck. Lucky, very lucky, because a lot

435
00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:27,960
Speaker 1: of families might have back in that day or today.

436
00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:32,080
Speaker 1: So at nineteen, Romayne sang in a cabaret in Paris,

437
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:35,679
Speaker 1: but shortly after that she got pregnant. She was unmarried,

438
00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:38,600
Speaker 1: so she placed the kid in a convent the old

439
00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:41,399
Speaker 1: drop them off at the fire station, trick, and she

440
00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:44,639
Speaker 1: went to Rome to study painting. Logical turn of events

441
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:49,280
Speaker 1: sometimes these lives. I'm just like, you're a singer in Paris,

442
00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:53,760
Speaker 1: you drop out a baby, drop them off for adoption somewhere,

443
00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:55,440
Speaker 1: and then you're like, you know what, I'm going to

444
00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:57,360
Speaker 1: go to Rome and learn how to be a painter instead.

445
00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:00,600
Speaker 2: I mean, I think it was more that she was married,

446
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:03,320
Speaker 2: so maybe people saw her pregnant in Paris and she's like,

447
00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:06,239
Speaker 2: I need to let this cool off, likeeple think I'm

448
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:09,640
Speaker 2: not a respectable woman. I'm having trouble, Like I don't

449
00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:10,080
Speaker 2: know the.

450
00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:13,240
Speaker 1: Number of reasons that I might be, like, whoof I

451
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:15,720
Speaker 1: really need to go restart my life in Rome? Well

452
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:21,600
Speaker 1: I can't do it. Well, Romayne goes to Rome to

453
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:24,800
Speaker 1: study painting, and she was the only woman in the

454
00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:29,840
Speaker 1: life drawing class because it was considered pretty unseemly for

455
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:33,160
Speaker 1: a woman to be there painting nude models, right right,

456
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:36,359
Speaker 1: They're like, the naked body is for men to see,

457
00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:37,560
Speaker 1: not for women.

458
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:39,360
Speaker 2: I always to get so weird that they're like, oh,

459
00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:42,359
Speaker 2: women can't handle blood, women can't handle nudity, And I'm like,

460
00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:45,400
Speaker 2: but also, women are frequently the caretakers of the elderly.

461
00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:49,080
Speaker 2: To undress them and be them, then we have blood

462
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,439
Speaker 2: to deal with on a monthly basis. Like, you know,

463
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:54,560
Speaker 2: I just don't understand those stereotypes at all.

464
00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:57,760
Speaker 1: But well, all the boys didn't exactly make it easy

465
00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:02,119
Speaker 1: for her in this art class either. One persistent classmate

466
00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:06,159
Speaker 1: left a pornographic book on her chair, opened to the

467
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:09,760
Speaker 1: page that he said he wanted to demonstrate with her.

468
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:13,320
Speaker 1: Check it out, lady, this could be us. I mean, well,

469
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:16,639
Speaker 1: she picked that book up, walked over and smacked that

470
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:21,359
Speaker 1: kid upside the head with the yeah. But he and

471
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,119
Speaker 1: his friends still got together and stalked her, and then

472
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:26,760
Speaker 1: he tried to force her to marry him. Well, she

473
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:28,040
Speaker 1: had to get the hell out of there, so she

474
00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:30,399
Speaker 1: fled to Capri to escape these boys.

475
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:34,440
Speaker 2: Whish I could flee to Capriame. But fortunately her hard

476
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:36,879
Speaker 2: times came to an end. In nineteen oh one, she

477
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,760
Speaker 2: went back to America when her brother died. A year later,

478
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:43,280
Speaker 2: her mother also died, and Romayne and her sister inherited

479
00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:46,600
Speaker 2: a large estate, so they were finally independently wealthy. All

480
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:49,560
Speaker 2: her money troubles were behind her and she could kind

481
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 2: of relax with which.

482
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:53,480
Speaker 1: I'm laughing because like, if I became independently wealthy now,

483
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:55,520
Speaker 1: I would say, I'm going to go to Rome and

484
00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:58,000
Speaker 1: take in our class. That's what she did.

485
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 2: What she had broke, she already had that part done.

486
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 2: So then in nineteen oh three, Romayne married her gay

487
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:10,680
Speaker 2: friend John Ellingham Brooks okay, And no one really knows

488
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 2: why she did this except that he was really broke

489
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:14,879
Speaker 2: and he needed the support. So maybe it was just

490
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 2: something altruistic on her part. She didn't really need him.

491
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,119
Speaker 2: She didn't see the same way that like Winnoretta and

492
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 2: Olga needed their husband right right right, But he was

493
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 2: Hella broke, so he's like help me out. She's like,

494
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,080
Speaker 2: all right, I'll marry you. But he clearly did not

495
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:30,439
Speaker 2: know how to be a good partner like Edmund and

496
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:34,119
Speaker 2: Adolf de Meyer. Because their marriage broke down really quickly.

497
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,880
Speaker 2: Romayne cut her hair and she ordered men's clothes to wear,

498
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:39,960
Speaker 2: and John was like, I won't be seen with you

499
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:43,120
Speaker 2: dressed like that, oh wow. And Romayne's like, okay, then

500
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:44,359
Speaker 2: you won't see me at all.

501
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:48,359
Speaker 1: Ye sure, yeah, not a woman to be trifled with,

502
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:49,080
Speaker 1: all right.

503
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,760
Speaker 2: And he also kept talking about her money like it

504
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:56,719
Speaker 2: was his money, and that made her really nervous because

505
00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 2: again she had been really broke for a long time.

506
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:02,800
Speaker 2: She actually almost died of starvation at one point. Oh okay,

507
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:05,760
Speaker 2: so she was really protective of her fund. Sure, and

508
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:08,200
Speaker 2: she I guess, I mean he's we already know he's broke,

509
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:10,560
Speaker 2: Like he wasn't good with money himself. She was probably like,

510
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:13,280
Speaker 2: I'm seeing a road to destruction that I don't want

511
00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 2: to go down. So after a year together, she left

512
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,719
Speaker 2: him and Capri with his boyfriend E. F. Benson, and

513
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 2: she went to London. She kept his last name Brooks,

514
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:26,200
Speaker 2: Romaine Brooks, and she supported him with a yearly allowance

515
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:28,480
Speaker 2: of three hundred pounds and that enabled him to live

516
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 2: comfortably until his death in nineteen twenty.

517
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:34,120
Speaker 1: Okay, he's like, let me manage your money, all right,

518
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:35,680
Speaker 1: She's like, I will tend to you.

519
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:38,640
Speaker 2: I know how what it costs to live in caprio. Okay,

520
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 2: Like here.

521
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 1: You go, and probably enough to keep him from like

522
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 1: trying to come after her or bug her about more

523
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:48,679
Speaker 1: money or whatever. Now we know that Romayne Brooks started

524
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:52,159
Speaker 1: seeing Winneretta Singer in nineteen oh five, but there's no

525
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:55,879
Speaker 1: details on how long that relationship lasted, or maybe it

526
00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:58,479
Speaker 1: was kind of off and on, or what the deal was,

527
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,680
Speaker 1: but we'll just throw that in the it's complicated category.

528
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 1: But in nineteen oh nine, Romayne did have a love

529
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:11,399
Speaker 1: triangle going on with the dancer Ida Rubinstein. She danced

530
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 1: with the ballet russ No. Romayne painted Ida more than

531
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:18,680
Speaker 1: anyone else with my Roman art skills to the test,

532
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:22,440
Speaker 1: here and paint this beautiful ballerina subject. But there was

533
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 1: a politician named Gabriel Danuzzio, and he was a good

534
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 1: friend of Romayne Brooks, but he was also in love

535
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:33,120
Speaker 1: with Ida. Ida would barely give this guy the time

536
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 1: of day because she was so in love with Romain.

537
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:37,200
Speaker 2: Sorry de nuncio.

538
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 1: At one point, the Nuncio asked Romayne to be his mistress.

539
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:45,080
Speaker 1: He's like, why why don't you and I get together

540
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 1: and then I'll be closer to Ida. Maybe he was

541
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 1: even trying to get like I'm an a JATOI going on,

542
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 1: But Romayne was like, no, that's no good for me.

543
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 1: I'm into her, she's into me. Neither of us is

544
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:57,160
Speaker 1: into you. You're the only one who's trying to get

545
00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:57,959
Speaker 1: this thing to happen.

546
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 2: Neither of us want to enter the will any Okay.

547
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:04,080
Speaker 1: Now, even though Romayn and Dunnacio actually got along fairly well,

548
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:06,919
Speaker 1: they were friendly with each other, he had this habit

549
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:11,440
Speaker 1: of hanging portraits of his ex mistresses in a rogue's gallery,

550
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 1: which Romayne found pretty tasteless. You know, I mean it

551
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 1: is kind of like that sort of trophy room. Oh yeah,

552
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 1: like here's all the ladies I've banged.

553
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:22,320
Speaker 2: Like, ah, they're all so beauty.

554
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 1: So to kind of tease him about this, she gifted

555
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:29,200
Speaker 1: him with a self portrait one of herself. She's like, well,

556
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:31,159
Speaker 1: you can just put me next to all those other ladies,

557
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,919
Speaker 1: even though you never even got with me. It was

558
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 1: later found hanging in his music room, right, so I

559
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:42,479
Speaker 1: guess right, He's like, well, I'm not about to not

560
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,360
Speaker 1: hang up an original Romaine Brooks self portrait.

561
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:48,040
Speaker 2: I mean, but no good gift.

562
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 1: Uh huh, but I'm not putting you in that category.

563
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 2: So she had that going on. Then, in nineteen nineteen,

564
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 2: Romayne started dating a socialite named Mebe Francetti. A year later,

565
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 2: she had a fling with Renato Borne Gussie, the pianists,

566
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,120
Speaker 2: who would eventually also date Winneretta. We'll get to her

567
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 2: in a minute, but her most enduring relationship was with

568
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 2: the American expatriot and celebrated Parisian hostess Natalie Clifford Barney.

569
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:18,280
Speaker 2: This lady probably had more flings than anyone we've ever covered,

570
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 2: including Isaac Singer.

571
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,480
Speaker 1: I feel like her name has already come up several

572
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 1: times in past episodes.

573
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 2: It has because she is a serial non monogamist. We

574
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 2: talked about her a lot in our Collette series.

575
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, she.

576
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 2: Made the poet Rene Vivian miserable by not committing to her.

577
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:35,960
Speaker 2: We also mentioned in the last episode that Winneretta did

578
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 2: not like Natalie Oh yeah, Barney, which kind of points

579
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 2: to Winneretta being a bit more conservative than maybe Natalie.

580
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:44,720
Speaker 2: Natalie was a bit more left bank wild, you know,

581
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 2: really open, very unapologetic. Winneretta was open, but she clearly

582
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 2: was more respectable.

583
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 1: I got gotta have some principles still.

584
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 2: Right, or she was like, well you still you still

585
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 2: conduct affairs discreetly? You know, you don't just walk around,

586
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 2: you know. She might have had a little more of

587
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 2: a stuck up vibe about it.

588
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 1: One at a time, please, unless maybe you're planning on

589
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 1: breaking up the one, you can get the other one started.

590
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 2: But but Romayne Brooks met Natalie in nineteen sixteen, and

591
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:15,959
Speaker 2: Natalie had already been involved for seven years at that

592
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 2: point with the married and very glamorous Duchess Elizabeth de Gramont.

593
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 2: She was also known as Lily de Grammont. Okay, Lily

594
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:28,080
Speaker 2: got jealous of Natalie's attention to Romayne, probably picking up

595
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 2: on the fact that this was probably like a more

596
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 2: real connection, right than Natalie had with like her, probably

597
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:37,239
Speaker 2: many other flings that she had in the seven years. Right,

598
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 2: So Lily's like, hey, you know, stop seeing her. I

599
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 2: don't like that. And then Natalie bafflingly offered a marriage

600
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:47,720
Speaker 2: contract to Lily while still saying that she would not

601
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 2: stop seeing Romayne. Oh, She's straight up like, hey, Lily, well,

602
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 2: don't worry. You're you're my main girl.

603
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 1: I'll marry you, but I really keep flirting with this.

604
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I'll still have a mistress on the side. Yeah, Okay,

605
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 2: that's reasonable, which right, like that, I feel like that

606
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 2: means Natalie kind of had an idea in her mind

607
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 2: about what an aristocratic man could do, and she wanted

608
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 2: She's like, I want to be married to my woman

609
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 2: and have all the women I want on the side.

610
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:14,960
Speaker 2: That's what I see men do. I want to do that. So,

611
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 2: but of course Lily was probably like, no, the whole

612
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:20,760
Speaker 2: point is stop seeing Romay, So why are you talking

613
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:21,320
Speaker 2: about marriage?

614
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:21,479
Speaker 1: Right?

615
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 2: Fortunately, all the ladies figured it out, They got it

616
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 2: all arranged to their satisfaction, and they settled into a lifelong,

617
00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 2: fifty year stable triangle together where nobody was apparently more

618
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 2: favored over the other, Like they really found a really

619
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:42,800
Speaker 2: good balance together. And Lily once summed up their ethical

620
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 2: polyamory by saying, quote, civilized beings are those who know

621
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:50,600
Speaker 2: how to take more from life than others love it,

622
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:53,720
Speaker 2: which I do love pretty cool. The only time that

623
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:58,160
Speaker 2: Natalie ever stopped seeing someone was at Romayne's request. She

624
00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 2: stopped seeing Oscar Wild's Dolly wild Wow. Okay, but apparently

625
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 2: it was not so much a jealousy thing, as Dolly

626
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 2: Wilde was a serious heroin addict and Romayne was like,

627
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 2: I don't like you hanging out with her. She's really

628
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 2: drugged up and you shouldn't.

629
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:17,200
Speaker 1: Be with her. Or maybe Romaine was like, look, I

630
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 1: dated someone who dated someone who was briefly engaged to

631
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:26,480
Speaker 1: Oscar Wilde's brother, so you can't date his daughter this way.

632
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 1: You know. It's like we've been talking about this episode

633
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 1: like a spiderweb, because there's all these overlapping romance lines

634
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 1: between all these lesbians. But it's more like a game

635
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:40,360
Speaker 1: of pickup sticks where you just dump a big pile

636
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 1: of sticks on the ground and you have to sort

637
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 1: through him and try and get him in order. I mean,

638
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:45,760
Speaker 1: very confusing.

639
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 2: I guess there's only so many lesbians, so right you

640
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:51,720
Speaker 2: kind of all go through one another if you're having

641
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 2: so many affairs, I don't know, Oh jeez. So that's

642
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 2: the story of Romaine Brooks skipping over all the cool

643
00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 2: painting stuff. So definitely checking out the painting stuff when

644
00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 2: you a chance.

645
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 1: So next up for Winneretta's Little Black Book is Renata Borgatti,

646
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 1: whose name we've mentioned so many times. Winneretta had an

647
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 1: affair with her in the early nineteen twenties. Renata was

648
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:17,719
Speaker 1: originally trained as a ballerina, but she gave that up

649
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 1: to devote herself to playing piano, particularly Debussy, who, of

650
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 1: course we know that Winneretta had a hand in making famous. Yep.

651
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 1: Renata lived in Capri, which we've mentioned, is you know,

652
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 1: an island off the coast of Italy, and it was

653
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 1: known for being tolerant of home sexuality. So it was

654
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:37,800
Speaker 1: like literally an island full of gays, oh yeah, and queers,

655
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 1: and it's like, let's go live there.

656
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 2: She's hanging out with John Ellingham Brooks.

657
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:44,040
Speaker 1: Sounds like a great island.

658
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:47,240
Speaker 2: I know, right, she don't feel like I remember a

659
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 2: lot of gay activity when we were there, but now

660
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:49,400
Speaker 2: I want to.

661
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 1: Go No, when we were in Capri Honeymoon Alert, we

662
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 1: were there with like a boatload of Americans who like

663
00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 1: worked in the film industry, and they were all super

664
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 1: straight and I know, a wonderfully, very nice, lovely. Yeah,

665
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:05,240
Speaker 1: we had a great time in Capri, but it was no,

666
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 1: we were not faced with you know, an onslaught of

667
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:09,880
Speaker 1: the lgbt.

668
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 2: Q crowd too bad for Maybe there's a really cool

669
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 2: Capri Pride that no one knows about.

670
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:17,479
Speaker 1: Oh man, yeah, well, I guess we'll have to go back.

671
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:19,480
Speaker 2: Oh no, we have to go back to Capri.

672
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 1: If you're gay and in Capri. H she just an

673
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:24,839
Speaker 1: email and invite us over to will be coming out

674
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 1: with you. So Renata's living in Capri obviously very tolerant

675
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:31,360
Speaker 1: of homosexuality there, so she was able to live openly

676
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:34,359
Speaker 1: as a lesbian, and she had an affair with a

677
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 1: socialite named Mimi Franchetti for a year until Mimi left

678
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:41,719
Speaker 1: Capri and started seeing Romayne.

679
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:43,240
Speaker 2: Brooks there it is, Oh my god.

680
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:47,360
Speaker 1: Then Renata had an affair with a married actress, Faith

681
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:52,480
Speaker 1: Compton Mackenzie, whose husband, Sir Edward Compton Mackenzie, wrote a

682
00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 1: book about lesbians living on a fictional island together called

683
00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:57,799
Speaker 1: Extraordinary Women.

684
00:34:58,280 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 2: I wonder where he got his inspiration.

685
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 1: They sure were extraordinary, they were.

686
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:06,320
Speaker 2: And it's kind of cool that he like he apparently.

687
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:09,279
Speaker 2: I don't think he had any like homosexual tendencies like

688
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:11,719
Speaker 2: any of these lesbians husbands or anything, but he was

689
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 2: clearly like, all right, girl, go on, you get you

690
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:18,400
Speaker 2: what you need. Well after that, Renata Borgatti went to

691
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:22,000
Speaker 2: Paris and in nineteen twenty she started seeing Romayne Brooks herself.

692
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 2: So I gotta wonder did they compare notes on Mimi Frechetti?

693
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:27,839
Speaker 2: Like she was, like, you know what, I'd hate it, right,

694
00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:31,520
Speaker 2: She never brushed her teeth until after breakfast, so annoying.

695
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:36,000
Speaker 1: Wait wait, wait, wait wait, I know you don't. I

696
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 1: don't brush my teeth till after breakfast, and you brush

697
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:41,720
Speaker 1: your teeth before breakfast like an insane person, because apparently

698
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 1: you love the taste of coffee and toothpaste.

699
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:47,320
Speaker 2: No, you don't taste the toothpaste anymore. You just don't

700
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 2: also drink your coffee and taste your disgusting mouth.

701
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:54,640
Speaker 1: You know, if you're well hydrated, you don't wake up

702
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:55,760
Speaker 1: with a nasty mouth.

703
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 2: That's what you think.

704
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:05,400
Speaker 1: Try to say, you don't wake up with as nasty

705
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 1: a mouth.

706
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 2: All right, that might be true.

707
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:11,879
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm just saying, if we compare the nastiness

708
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 1: of our two mouths, you need a lot of dental

709
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:16,160
Speaker 1: to your mouth.

710
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 2: You watch your mouth.

711
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:20,800
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, my mouth is being nasty.

712
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:23,440
Speaker 2: Your mouth is being very nasty. Right now, you have

713
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:24,480
Speaker 2: ambitious tongue.

714
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:25,120
Speaker 1: Well.

715
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 2: While Renado was with Romayne, she had her portrait painted

716
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 2: it called Renado Borgatti at the Piano. Very nice. But

717
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:34,680
Speaker 2: at that point Romayne was kind of trying to get

718
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:38,319
Speaker 2: her flirtation with Natalie Clifford Barney off the government, So

719
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:40,360
Speaker 2: she and Renata kind of saw each other off and

720
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:44,800
Speaker 2: on for three years. Then Romayne started avoiding her awkward,

721
00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:47,200
Speaker 2: so Renada gave it up. She turned her attention to

722
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:51,480
Speaker 2: the musical patronesque Winneretta singer Wow, and they had their fling.

723
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 2: She also started playing with Olga Rudge, who we mentioned

724
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:59,040
Speaker 2: last episode Ezra Pound's mistress who found all that Vivaldi

725
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 2: and helped bring him back into musical popularity or whatever,

726
00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 2: and also became Ranada's musical collaborator. They played together so

727
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 2: often at Winnaretas concerts that they were considered house musicians.

728
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 1: Oh man. They all just kept dating each other. It's

729
00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:20,719
Speaker 1: uh so in and around college and shortly after I

730
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 1: had a group of friends that it was a lot

731
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:26,200
Speaker 1: of lesbians, and I definitely when they would like it

732
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:28,720
Speaker 1: was my girlfriend at the time, her roommate and sister

733
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:31,799
Speaker 1: was a lesbian, and all their friends hanging out so

734
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:35,160
Speaker 1: I was often being introduced and then later told, well,

735
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:38,160
Speaker 1: she dated her, but then they dated before that, and

736
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:40,480
Speaker 1: these teams to date each other, and it was I mean,

737
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:42,680
Speaker 1: like they would tell me. It's like the joke is real.

738
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:45,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what I saw. There's a joke on the

739
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:48,920
Speaker 2: l Word, the TV show, Uh huh, where she's basically

740
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:52,239
Speaker 2: talking about the chart like if you charted all the

741
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:54,920
Speaker 2: lesbian relationships in a city, there would be no more

742
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:58,560
Speaker 2: than four degrees of separation between every lesbian because because

743
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 2: of how much they date overlapped.

744
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:03,320
Speaker 1: I don't like to fall into stereotypes, but we're reading

745
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 1: historical evidence that I mean support right now. Well after

746
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:13,880
Speaker 1: Renata Winneretta started seeing the socialite Violet Trefusus, who we

747
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:17,719
Speaker 1: already know also had an affair with Olga Demeyer. Just

748
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 1: like we said, here we go. No, Violet's mother was

749
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 1: Alice Keppel, we've already mentioned, who was King Edward the

750
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 1: Seventh's favorite mistress. So obviously their family no strangers to

751
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:33,800
Speaker 1: being a bit scandalous, right, but violent really pushed the

752
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:36,320
Speaker 1: boundaries on that. Let's take a quick break, try and

753
00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:38,880
Speaker 1: sort our thoughts out, and we'll come back and untangle

754
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:39,759
Speaker 1: this web.

755
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 2: Right after this, Welcome back everyone.

756
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:55,280
Speaker 1: Violet Keppel the daughter of Alice Keppel, King Edward's mistress.

757
00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:59,640
Speaker 1: She was in love with a woman named Vita Sackville

758
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:02,880
Speaker 1: West when they were both young girls at school. Violet

759
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 1: was only ten and Vita was about twelve. So that

760
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:09,839
Speaker 1: young budding love that nobody really understands. Yeah, just weird feelings. Now.

761
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:13,320
Speaker 1: When Violet was fourteen, she confessed her love to Vita

762
00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:16,800
Speaker 1: and gave her a ring. But Vita, who would have

763
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 1: been sixteen at this point, was already in love with

764
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 1: her first girlfriend, another schoolgirl named Rosamond Grovener m But

765
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:29,359
Speaker 1: Violet and Vita still had something special, and two years later,

766
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:32,960
Speaker 1: at sixteen, Violet wrote to Vita quote, I love in

767
00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:36,799
Speaker 1: you what I know is also in me. That is imagination,

768
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 1: a gift for languages, taste, intuition, and a mass of

769
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 1: other things. I love you, Vita, because I have seen

770
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:45,320
Speaker 1: your soul.

771
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:48,800
Speaker 2: Also, could you have written that at sixteen?

772
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:51,400
Speaker 1: Could I've written that at I mean I might have

773
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:54,440
Speaker 1: written that better at sixteen than I would now, you know,

774
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:57,439
Speaker 1: because I was young and full of hope and love.

775
00:39:57,640 --> 00:39:58,280
Speaker 2: Oh wow.

776
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 1: Well. Also, Vita thought that her girlfriend, Rosamond, was sweet

777
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 1: but kind of stupid and boring, you know, so.

778
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:11,319
Speaker 2: She's like, I mean, she's not got a lot to say. Yeah, interesting, right.

779
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:13,919
Speaker 1: They fell in love as teenagers, dated for a couple

780
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:16,120
Speaker 1: of years, and she was like, you know, I think

781
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:18,160
Speaker 1: I might have tapped this one out right.

782
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:20,920
Speaker 2: It turns out she's kind of a basic bit.

783
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 1: Not a lot left in this barrel. So Vita and

784
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 1: Rosamond's relationship ended in nineteen thirteen, and that's when Vita

785
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:36,400
Speaker 1: married a diplomat named Harold Nicholson. And how's this ridiculous? Rosamond,

786
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:40,000
Speaker 1: her ex girlfriend, ended up being one of her bridesmaids.

787
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:43,240
Speaker 1: You know, picture stay close, they stay close.

788
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:46,040
Speaker 2: I mean that's true. They did stay close, but it's

789
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:48,719
Speaker 2: like it ended because she got married. So I'm just

790
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 2: I'm just seeing like this jealous ex girl standing there

791
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:59,160
Speaker 2: clutching her flowers, you know what I mean. Now, Vita

792
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:02,680
Speaker 2: actually went ag against her parents wishes by marrying Harold

793
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:05,600
Speaker 2: Nicholson because he was just this modest politician. Right.

794
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 1: Oh okay.

795
00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:10,320
Speaker 2: Meanwhile, Vita herself had a very noble background. She was

796
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:13,200
Speaker 2: being courted by incredibly rich dukes and shits, so you know,

797
00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:15,799
Speaker 2: they were like, you need to marry like that guy,

798
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:18,760
Speaker 2: the Duke of Maboro or whatever it was. In fact,

799
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:21,840
Speaker 2: she was a bit of a lady Mary Crawley in

800
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:24,920
Speaker 2: a way from Dowton Abbey because she was the heir.

801
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:29,600
Speaker 2: She was the eldest actually the only child of her parents' marriage.

802
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:32,400
Speaker 2: But she was unable to inherit her father's estate because

803
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:34,880
Speaker 2: of her gender. And she was real bitter about that,

804
00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:37,840
Speaker 2: which I would be too. So she's like looking to

805
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:42,280
Speaker 2: get married and everything. And Harold Nicholson was smart and fun.

806
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:44,480
Speaker 2: They had a really good time together. They enjoyed talking

807
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:47,880
Speaker 2: to each other, which was not like Rosamond, right. And

808
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:51,480
Speaker 2: he could also give her something that these fancy lords

809
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:53,760
Speaker 2: and dukes and stuff might not have given her, which

810
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:59,320
Speaker 2: was an equal and an open marriage. Oh enticing exactly

811
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:03,319
Speaker 2: because Harold Nichelson was also bisexual. Ok, here we go.

812
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:08,480
Speaker 2: I love these people really finding each other, finding the

813
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:09,160
Speaker 2: perfect partner.

814
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:11,520
Speaker 1: And was Vita bisexual do we know? Yes?

815
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:14,840
Speaker 2: I mean yeah, pretty much. Mostly she had lesbian affairs,

816
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:18,360
Speaker 2: but she did have two sons with Harold, right, she

817
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:20,400
Speaker 2: found it within her to have sex with him at

818
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:23,760
Speaker 2: least a couple times. So anyway, they both had affairs

819
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 2: outside of their marriage, but you know, they had their

820
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:29,280
Speaker 2: two sons together, and they became very devoted to one another. Again,

821
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:31,960
Speaker 2: like the pollen Nacs, like the Depolagnacs, they found a

822
00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:34,800
Speaker 2: lot of companionship and a lot to respect about one another.

823
00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:39,240
Speaker 2: But Violet Keppel, who of course super in love with Vita.

824
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:41,880
Speaker 1: They were school girls exactly, still.

825
00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:45,240
Speaker 2: Was and everything, and they definitely were they were definitely

826
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:49,160
Speaker 2: doing stuff. Oh okay, okay, they were definitely doing stuff.

827
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:53,560
Speaker 2: So Violet did not like this separation because again, Feta

828
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:55,560
Speaker 2: is married to a diplomat, so they were traveling. They

829
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:57,120
Speaker 2: had to go live in like the Middle East for

830
00:42:57,160 --> 00:43:00,440
Speaker 2: a little while, so she's not around and violent kind

831
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:03,759
Speaker 2: of like freaked out about it a little bit, Like

832
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:06,680
Speaker 2: she wrote sort of aggressive love letters to Vita. One

833
00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:09,279
Speaker 2: line was like you want to see madness, I'll show

834
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:12,000
Speaker 2: you madness, like I will drag you back, you know,

835
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:15,120
Speaker 2: kind of wow kind of vibe in these letters.

836
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 1: You'd think I'm crazy. I got you crazy.

837
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:22,440
Speaker 2: She said that, wow, but in like Brittany of her day,

838
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:25,239
Speaker 2: so she's like pleading for her to come back to her,

839
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:27,160
Speaker 2: and I guess Vita kind of liked that. It's sort

840
00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:29,480
Speaker 2: of flattering, I guess to have such an effect on

841
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:34,919
Speaker 2: someone or whatever. Because in nineteen seventeen, when Vida and

842
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:38,920
Speaker 2: Harold were back in England, Vida and Violet started their

843
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:41,640
Speaker 2: fair back up again, real hot and heavy. Oh okay,

844
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:44,239
Speaker 2: I guess Vida had also had both her sons by

845
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:46,560
Speaker 2: this point, so maybe she's like, I'm good, you have

846
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:48,560
Speaker 2: your air to spare or whatever, so I can like

847
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:53,160
Speaker 2: do whatever I want. But meanwhile, Violet's mom, Alice Keppel,

848
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:56,920
Speaker 2: was busy arranging a marriage for Violet to the handsome

849
00:43:57,000 --> 00:43:59,200
Speaker 2: son of a baron, Dennis Triffuses.

850
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 1: Okay.

851
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:03,120
Speaker 2: In the background, she's like, can me get you somebody

852
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:04,480
Speaker 2: respectable to be married to?

853
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 1: Okay, Vita in an open marriage with Harold. They're both bisexual.

854
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:11,640
Speaker 1: Vita and Violet having a little fling going on. But

855
00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:15,920
Speaker 1: Violet's mom, the mistress of the King, the king says,

856
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:18,280
Speaker 1: you got to marry this guy, Dennis. That's right, okay.

857
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:22,840
Speaker 1: So Viola and Vita ran off to Monte Carlo together

858
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 1: for several months, like, let's stall this marriage. Let's run

859
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:30,439
Speaker 1: off to Monte Carlo together. Sounds great again. The other event,

860
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:33,279
Speaker 1: I mean, of course, you're free in your sexuality when

861
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:35,280
Speaker 1: you can just pick up and go to Monte Carlo

862
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:39,319
Speaker 1: for a while. Now, while they were there, Vita would

863
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:43,200
Speaker 1: dress like a wounded soldier named Julian and pretend to

864
00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:48,480
Speaker 1: be Violet's husband. Meanwhile, according to the Paris Review, Harold

865
00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:52,480
Speaker 1: was in Paris writing and signing the Treaty of Versailles.

866
00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:56,920
Speaker 2: No big deal, dicking around in Paris redrawing the borders

867
00:44:56,920 --> 00:44:57,400
Speaker 2: of Europe.

868
00:44:57,600 --> 00:45:00,319
Speaker 1: Right, I'm just gonna write the Treaty of Versailles. My

869
00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:03,919
Speaker 1: wife's off having a lesbian affair. So when this little

870
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:07,480
Speaker 1: trip to Monte Carlo ended, as all great things must do,

871
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:11,080
Speaker 1: and Violet and Vita went back to England, Violet finally

872
00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:15,600
Speaker 1: agreed to marry Dennis, per her mother's wishes, but only

873
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:19,719
Speaker 1: if he promised to never have sex with her. What

874
00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:20,920
Speaker 1: a marriage proposal.

875
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:23,320
Speaker 2: Interesting, Well, he must.

876
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:25,920
Speaker 1: Have agreed, because they did get married in June of

877
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:29,759
Speaker 1: nineteen nineteen. Now only a few months after their wedding day,

878
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:33,200
Speaker 1: Violet and Vita ran off to France again for another

879
00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:38,720
Speaker 1: couple of months until Alice Keppel, Violet's mom, started hearing

880
00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:40,880
Speaker 1: so much gossip about the two of them that she

881
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:43,560
Speaker 1: started to get worried that it was going to reflect

882
00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:48,160
Speaker 1: poorly on Violet's younger sister, who was about to get married. Right,

883
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:50,920
Speaker 1: She's like, I know, Violet, I know you're out there

884
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:53,800
Speaker 1: having fun with your little girlfriends, but you've got to

885
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:56,319
Speaker 1: think about your little sister's right, she's trying to get married.

886
00:45:56,320 --> 00:46:00,239
Speaker 1: She don't need, we don't need a scandal. So she

887
00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:05,040
Speaker 1: sent Dennis. She said, Dennis, go get your wife. That's

888
00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:07,320
Speaker 1: what you got it. That's your husbandly duty. Stop.

889
00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:08,919
Speaker 2: Hye, I got you here, Uh huh.

890
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:12,200
Speaker 1: You're gonna put a stop to these shenanigans now, Whencyclopedia

891
00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:18,320
Speaker 1: dot com says that Alice was actually surprisingly reasonable about

892
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:22,279
Speaker 1: Violet's affair with Vita, but she thought that her marrying

893
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:26,719
Speaker 1: Dennis would quote cure her right, So.

894
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:29,000
Speaker 2: She had kind of an enlightened way of looking at

895
00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:31,920
Speaker 2: I guess for the time, but still also thought, just

896
00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:34,480
Speaker 2: you need that the right dick, well just yea where

897
00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:35,040
Speaker 2: you need to go.

898
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:37,239
Speaker 1: Or whatever that idea of like, oh, this is a

899
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:41,480
Speaker 1: fun little phase, but when you get up proper dicking right,

900
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:43,160
Speaker 1: you'll you'll understand.

901
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:46,720
Speaker 2: Which I hate too, because it's sort of smacks of, oh,

902
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:49,080
Speaker 2: it's just a trend right now, let's be in lover

903
00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:51,880
Speaker 2: or whatever. But she'll get over that and have kids

904
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:55,400
Speaker 2: and settle down whatever. So yeah, these ladies keep running

905
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:58,040
Speaker 2: off together and causing a lot of talk. You know,

906
00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:02,120
Speaker 2: it's like scandalous stuff. And then in nineteen twenty it

907
00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:04,840
Speaker 2: sort of came to a head when they tried to

908
00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:07,920
Speaker 2: Elope for real, oh Violet. Rita and Violet were like,

909
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:11,120
Speaker 2: you know what, let's shake off all this straight shit

910
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:15,440
Speaker 2: and go be gay together for life forever, and Harold

911
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:18,839
Speaker 2: and Dennis had to follow them in a two seater aeroplane.

912
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:22,360
Speaker 2: Oh and basically be like, y'all cannot do this, okay, Vita,

913
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:24,759
Speaker 2: think of your kids, Like, let's not forget our lady

914
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 2: Seymour worstly episode where when she ran off from her husband,

915
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:30,400
Speaker 2: she gave up her children, like, you know, that's the

916
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:33,080
Speaker 2: property of your husband. So Harold's like, think of your

917
00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:35,000
Speaker 2: two kids. This is going to reflect on them, This

918
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:36,759
Speaker 2: is going to reflect on me in my career. It's

919
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:39,239
Speaker 2: going to be poor for your reputation. And Dennis is

920
00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:40,920
Speaker 2: pretty much saying the same stuff to Violet.

921
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:44,520
Speaker 1: Oh, like like after they catch up with them, because

922
00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:47,120
Speaker 1: I was I was picturing them in a two sitter airplane.

923
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 1: Oh you know, like I say, I love, don't come

924
00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:56,719
Speaker 1: back think of ill reputation. You can, can you hear me?

925
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:00,640
Speaker 2: They were straight up open air, but she at the time.

926
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:03,600
Speaker 1: I don't know, he's shouting something.

927
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:06,359
Speaker 2: No, they actually they caught up with them, and then

928
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:09,680
Speaker 2: they started arguing. Sure, and it was a tense few

929
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:12,239
Speaker 2: weeks of them all arguing about whether or not they

930
00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:15,600
Speaker 2: would go or stay or stay married or whatever. But

931
00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:20,760
Speaker 2: finally Violet confessed to Vita that she had, in fact

932
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:24,760
Speaker 2: slept with Dennis Trefusis her husband one time.

933
00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:26,560
Speaker 1: Dear god, what we think.

934
00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:29,799
Speaker 2: Vita lost her shit. She called it a betrayal of

935
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:33,759
Speaker 2: their vows of fidelity. Come on, I mean, okay, like

936
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:36,480
Speaker 2: she had two sons with her own husband already, So

937
00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:37,760
Speaker 2: it's like, Vita, come.

938
00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:40,920
Speaker 1: On, girl, cheat on me with your husband.

939
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:42,920
Speaker 2: Oh that's I mean.

940
00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:46,640
Speaker 1: I will say, like, if if that was their understood agreement,

941
00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:49,000
Speaker 1: I mean, if it was expressed like I'm not going

942
00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:51,560
Speaker 1: to sleep with that guy, and then you did. But

943
00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:53,360
Speaker 1: it's also hypocritical, right.

944
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:56,239
Speaker 2: It's true. So and we don't know exactly when they

945
00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:58,840
Speaker 2: made that vow fidelity. It might have been after, you know,

946
00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:01,200
Speaker 2: the sons were born and like, okay, now I sleep

947
00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:02,840
Speaker 2: with him. I don't know for sure, but it was

948
00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:06,480
Speaker 2: definitely steam. It seems very funny and hypocritical to be like,

949
00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:11,200
Speaker 2: have your two sons the two little Nicholson's yeah, Like

950
00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:14,680
Speaker 2: how dare you so? Anyway, but she did get mad

951
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:16,400
Speaker 2: about it. She refused to speak with her for a

952
00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:18,520
Speaker 2: little while, but of course they made up and then

953
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:21,320
Speaker 2: they ran off together for a final time in nineteen

954
00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:25,920
Speaker 2: twenty one, when finally Harold just threatened to leave Vita

955
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:28,719
Speaker 2: for good. He's like, I can't do this anymore. You

956
00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:31,160
Speaker 2: either want me to be married to me or you don't.

957
00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:32,760
Speaker 2: I'm going to leave you if you do this again.

958
00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:37,120
Speaker 2: And Vita chose to go home to England and Harold

959
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:40,919
Speaker 2: and end her relationship with Violet forget. Okay, they did

960
00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 2: stay in touch and they stayed friendly and everything like that,

961
00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:46,400
Speaker 2: but Violet is still a little bit like, come, you know,

962
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:48,759
Speaker 2: please let me be with you, and Vita's like, no,

963
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:49,160
Speaker 2: it's over.

964
00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:51,560
Speaker 1: Over. I'm settling into the family thing.

965
00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:54,160
Speaker 2: Right or at the very least, I can't be with

966
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:56,080
Speaker 2: someone who I'm gonna run off with, you know, Like

967
00:49:56,120 --> 00:50:01,200
Speaker 2: I can't be this obvious and love it's causing problems

968
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:03,400
Speaker 2: in my family. So I'm gonna just not see you

969
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:08,120
Speaker 2: any because Vita's next very serious relationship would be another intense,

970
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:12,680
Speaker 2: very intense affair with Virginia Wolf. Oh my god, Virginia

971
00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:13,560
Speaker 2: Wolf popps up a lot.

972
00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:17,560
Speaker 1: Of Eventually all these girls go and date Virginuale.

973
00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:21,600
Speaker 2: In fact, it's actually kind of beautiful that Vita actually

974
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:25,920
Speaker 2: kind of helped Virginia heal from the childhood sexual abuse

975
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:30,839
Speaker 2: that she'd experienced, so she was actually her first erotic relationship.

976
00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:34,360
Speaker 2: She actually really helped her like kind of overcome a

977
00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:39,200
Speaker 2: lot of her physical like fear and dislike of intimacy

978
00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:41,759
Speaker 2: and stuff. So that's kind of beautiful about the two

979
00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:44,839
Speaker 2: of them. Virginia Wolf also wrote her novel Orlando, which

980
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:48,960
Speaker 2: is the first novel with a gender fluid protagonist about Vita.

981
00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:52,000
Speaker 2: This is a I guess Orlando kind of wakes up

982
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:54,600
Speaker 2: in different time periods as a woman or a man,

983
00:50:55,040 --> 00:50:56,760
Speaker 2: like it's always changing gender.

984
00:50:57,000 --> 00:50:59,080
Speaker 1: Oh okay, And it's.

985
00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:02,640
Speaker 2: Inspired by Vita, who, like Ethel Smith, kind of wrote

986
00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:06,360
Speaker 2: about herself as being deviant and sexuality, but she also

987
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:09,600
Speaker 2: was very enlightened in a way where she was like,

988
00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:11,640
Speaker 2: I just don't think the gender matters, Like I fell

989
00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:14,760
Speaker 2: in love with the person and I don't the package doesn't. Yeah,

990
00:51:14,760 --> 00:51:17,480
Speaker 2: I don't know why it's relevant in the conversation. So

991
00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:20,400
Speaker 2: she kind of had a very modern day thought about

992
00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:24,680
Speaker 2: gender anyway. Vita's son, Nigel Nicholson called Orlando quote the

993
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:28,959
Speaker 2: longest and the most charming love letter in literature. Oh

994
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:31,239
Speaker 2: so they have a very beautiful story. We might want

995
00:51:31,239 --> 00:51:33,560
Speaker 2: to get to you one day because that's kind of lovely.

996
00:51:34,160 --> 00:51:37,680
Speaker 1: Well, Violet was, you know, still a little heartbroken that

997
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:41,560
Speaker 1: she and Vida couldn't be together, But don't worry, because

998
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:46,320
Speaker 1: she moved on to her next lover, Winneretta Singer. Remember

999
00:51:46,360 --> 00:51:50,160
Speaker 1: her the sort of anchor point to this whole story

1000
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:54,040
Speaker 1: right now. Winneretta helped Violet pick up the pieces of

1001
00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:57,920
Speaker 1: her life after this tumultuous affair with Vita by introducing

1002
00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:02,080
Speaker 1: her to the gleam of society and bidding. This is

1003
00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:05,040
Speaker 1: also when we get a glimpse of what Winneretta was

1004
00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:09,319
Speaker 1: like to date, because maybe unsurprisingly, Whinneretta was a bit

1005
00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:13,799
Speaker 1: of a dominant personality. She ruled her own life. She

1006
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:16,680
Speaker 1: kind of ruled her lovers as well. With a serious will.

1007
00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:19,759
Speaker 2: But some some source and I can't remember which one

1008
00:52:20,320 --> 00:52:23,000
Speaker 2: called it whip in hand. Oh, so I guess she

1009
00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:25,239
Speaker 2: was very like, this is what we're doing today, this

1010
00:52:25,360 --> 00:52:29,080
Speaker 2: is how we're doing it, this is why we're doing it.

1011
00:52:29,239 --> 00:52:31,759
Speaker 1: Hey, look, I've been in that relationship and for a

1012
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:37,239
Speaker 1: while it's great. No hard choices. Right then you know,

1013
00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:39,360
Speaker 1: you lose your autonomy a little bit. But it's sorry,

1014
00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:43,720
Speaker 1: but it's all. But this worked out great for Violet

1015
00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:46,719
Speaker 1: because she was more submissive and they seem to have

1016
00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:51,319
Speaker 1: been pretty content for ten years together. Now. Violet's mother,

1017
00:52:51,480 --> 00:52:55,600
Speaker 1: Alice Keppel, didn't even object this relationship because Whenneretta was

1018
00:52:55,680 --> 00:52:59,040
Speaker 1: rich and powerful and most of all respectable, so there

1019
00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:02,319
Speaker 1: weren't really anybarrassing scenes like there had been with Vita.

1020
00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:05,399
Speaker 2: Winneretta would never run off to money, Carlos. I would

1021
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:07,600
Speaker 2: not do that now.

1022
00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:11,000
Speaker 1: Later in life, Violet would split her time between France

1023
00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:14,520
Speaker 1: and Italy, and she wrote some well liked and acclaimed books,

1024
00:53:15,120 --> 00:53:18,200
Speaker 1: and she got like more eccentric as she got older,

1025
00:53:18,239 --> 00:53:21,320
Speaker 1: as the best of us do. One author named Nancy

1026
00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:26,320
Speaker 1: Mitford equipped that Violet's autobiography should be called Here Lies

1027
00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:30,240
Speaker 1: Violet trefusis, as in she was always lying.

1028
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:33,200
Speaker 2: Yes, she apparently had some like weird fantasies and myths

1029
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:36,040
Speaker 2: about her own life. Yeah, that people are like hmmm.

1030
00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:40,120
Speaker 1: This journalist named Joseph Alsop wrote in his memoir I've

1031
00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:43,239
Speaker 1: Seen the Best of It that her quote enthusiasms have

1032
00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:51,000
Speaker 1: long since inspired the rhyme missus trifusus never refuses. Oh,

1033
00:53:52,320 --> 00:53:54,640
Speaker 1: and he implied that she had a brief affair with

1034
00:53:54,719 --> 00:53:59,000
Speaker 1: the former governor of California, Culbert Olsen. He was actually

1035
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:03,480
Speaker 1: the first atheist governor in the US. Alsop wrote that quote,

1036
00:54:03,520 --> 00:54:06,640
Speaker 1: by all accounts, they were much cheered up by one another.

1037
00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:11,080
Speaker 2: I love it. Wow, this is a pretty funny passage actually,

1038
00:54:11,120 --> 00:54:14,920
Speaker 2: because Joseph Elsup is writing about Culbert Olsen visiting Florence

1039
00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:17,439
Speaker 2: with a couple of friends, and his friends like got

1040
00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:20,120
Speaker 2: tired of Colbert, Like they're like, he's kind of getting

1041
00:54:20,120 --> 00:54:23,000
Speaker 2: on my nerves. So they arranged for him to meet Violet,

1042
00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:25,960
Speaker 2: like they wanted him to, Like they were like, here

1043
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:28,239
Speaker 2: you go hang out a couple of weeks to give

1044
00:54:28,239 --> 00:54:28,800
Speaker 2: me a break.

1045
00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:30,759
Speaker 1: I mean, you know that's isn't that? The trouble of

1046
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:33,600
Speaker 1: traveling abroad with friends for weeks at a times like,

1047
00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:37,000
Speaker 1: oh man, oh crap, day four. I actually don't like

1048
00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:37,759
Speaker 1: you that much.

1049
00:54:38,160 --> 00:54:39,240
Speaker 2: We don't travel together.

1050
00:54:39,880 --> 00:54:41,520
Speaker 1: Let me see if I can get you an international

1051
00:54:41,560 --> 00:54:43,440
Speaker 1: fling to distract you for a while so I can

1052
00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:44,200
Speaker 1: go have some fun.

1053
00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:46,560
Speaker 2: Well, Culbert sounds like an interesting guy. But they said

1054
00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:48,680
Speaker 2: he had a hyena like laugh, so maybe it was

1055
00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:51,040
Speaker 2: just laugh that did it.

1056
00:54:51,960 --> 00:54:54,920
Speaker 1: I can't everyone please only tell sad stories around him.

1057
00:54:55,120 --> 00:54:58,320
Speaker 2: We just can't take it. Do not amuse Culbert.

1058
00:54:58,320 --> 00:54:59,960
Speaker 1: They're all like having a great time at the cat.

1059
00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:02,640
Speaker 1: Culbert walks in and they're like, oh, oh, oh my

1060
00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:06,320
Speaker 1: my uncle just died. Real tragic the war.

1061
00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:06,880
Speaker 2: Am I right?

1062
00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:08,320
Speaker 1: Ooh ra having a real.

1063
00:55:08,200 --> 00:55:09,640
Speaker 2: Bad time thinking about that.

1064
00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:14,160
Speaker 1: Real bad time. Anyway, Culbert, this girl called you. She's

1065
00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:16,719
Speaker 1: six blocks from here, right, all.

1066
00:55:16,680 --> 00:55:22,080
Speaker 2: Right, Well that's Violet Trifuss. Okay, scandalous, the scandalous. Violet trifuses,

1067
00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:26,360
Speaker 2: never refuses, never refuses. But after Winneretta and Violet's affair

1068
00:55:26,520 --> 00:55:30,280
Speaker 2: cooled off in nineteen thirty three, Winneretta started seeing Alvild

1069
00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:36,400
Speaker 2: Chaplain around nineteen thirty eight. Now Alveild had married Viscount

1070
00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:39,840
Speaker 2: Anthony Chaplin in nineteen thirty three. They had one daughter together,

1071
00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:42,320
Speaker 2: but then they kind of both started seeing other people,

1072
00:55:42,440 --> 00:55:46,160
Speaker 2: so they were not really involved with one another anymore. Now,

1073
00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:49,839
Speaker 2: Alfield was involved with Winneretta, the Princess Depaula and Yac

1074
00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:53,040
Speaker 2: until her death in nineteen forty three, So that was

1075
00:55:53,080 --> 00:55:56,680
Speaker 2: Winneretta's like final affair was Alviald Chaplain. Okay, I'm kind

1076
00:55:56,719 --> 00:55:59,040
Speaker 2: of glad to know she was dating somebody at the

1077
00:55:59,160 --> 00:56:02,399
Speaker 2: end there. Sure, but al Wield had also met in

1078
00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:05,319
Speaker 2: one of Winneretta's at one of Winnarta's parties and had

1079
00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:08,600
Speaker 2: totally fallen in love with the writer and architectural historian

1080
00:56:08,880 --> 00:56:13,759
Speaker 2: James Lee's Milne, who was also bisexual. Sure, and he

1081
00:56:13,920 --> 00:56:17,760
Speaker 2: had had an affair with Vita Sackville West's husband, Harold

1082
00:56:17,840 --> 00:56:19,560
Speaker 2: Nicholson in the nineteen thirty.

1083
00:56:19,560 --> 00:56:21,680
Speaker 1: What was that from Back from Park? That was eighteen

1084
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:24,680
Speaker 1: names ago, Harold Nicholson.

1085
00:56:25,080 --> 00:56:27,879
Speaker 2: That's yea. Literally researching this was just like, oh a name,

1086
00:56:27,880 --> 00:56:31,600
Speaker 2: I've heard a name. I've heard name I heard crazy curiously.

1087
00:56:32,040 --> 00:56:35,280
Speaker 2: So anyway, but in nineteen forty nine, Alveield and James

1088
00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:38,279
Speaker 2: were head over heels in love with one another, and

1089
00:56:38,320 --> 00:56:40,520
Speaker 2: the Viscount didn't care because he had his own long

1090
00:56:40,640 --> 00:56:44,200
Speaker 2: term mistress, Rosemary Lyttleton, and actually, for a while all

1091
00:56:44,200 --> 00:56:47,640
Speaker 2: four of them lived together in the same house until

1092
00:56:47,680 --> 00:56:51,120
Speaker 2: the Chaplains finally got divorced in nineteen fifty. Oh so

1093
00:56:51,400 --> 00:56:54,000
Speaker 2: just love that. They were like, whatever, just get in here, James,

1094
00:56:54,680 --> 00:56:58,080
Speaker 2: why not? And the viscount married Rosemary. They had two

1095
00:56:58,120 --> 00:57:01,960
Speaker 2: more daughters, and Alveield and James got married, with Vita

1096
00:57:02,120 --> 00:57:07,239
Speaker 2: and Harold as their witnesses. Wow, it's like Rosman being

1097
00:57:07,280 --> 00:57:08,520
Speaker 2: Vita's Bret bridesmaid.

1098
00:57:08,719 --> 00:57:11,600
Speaker 1: So she's the crossover events that happened in the story.

1099
00:57:13,320 --> 00:57:16,120
Speaker 1: But after these two got married things seemed to have

1100
00:57:16,120 --> 00:57:18,360
Speaker 1: gotten a little rocky between the two of them. I'll

1101
00:57:18,440 --> 00:57:21,960
Speaker 1: Wield went off and had an affair with let me

1102
00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:24,280
Speaker 1: just pull a name out of the hat here, Vita

1103
00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:29,080
Speaker 1: Sackfield West of course, of course, which James pretended not

1104
00:57:29,160 --> 00:57:32,240
Speaker 1: to know about, but it did bother him because he's like,

1105
00:57:32,360 --> 00:57:36,200
Speaker 1: I think I dated someone who dated her, and then

1106
00:57:36,480 --> 00:57:42,200
Speaker 1: did I date her? I can't even remember to her husband, Yeah,

1107
00:57:42,360 --> 00:57:45,360
Speaker 1: oh my god. Well, i'll Field and James did have

1108
00:57:45,400 --> 00:57:48,200
Speaker 1: an active sexual life before they got married, but afterwards,

1109
00:57:48,440 --> 00:57:51,840
Speaker 1: i'll Wield kind of shut it down. James Lee'smilne dot

1110
00:57:51,880 --> 00:57:54,560
Speaker 1: Com says that this added to his struggle to put

1111
00:57:54,600 --> 00:57:56,600
Speaker 1: his homosexual past behind him.

1112
00:57:56,880 --> 00:57:58,760
Speaker 2: This is another guy who's like, oh, if I just

1113
00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:02,640
Speaker 2: find the right woman, yeah, anymore, I'm sorry, that's.

1114
00:58:02,480 --> 00:58:05,680
Speaker 1: Not how it works, right. So then, of course he

1115
00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:08,480
Speaker 1: ended up having an affair with a younger man, and

1116
00:58:08,600 --> 00:58:12,720
Speaker 1: Alveield got really jealous of that, and she started steaming

1117
00:58:12,800 --> 00:58:16,200
Speaker 1: his letters open and listening in on his phone conversations.

1118
00:58:16,320 --> 00:58:18,439
Speaker 1: So they just fought a lot. They were both doing

1119
00:58:18,480 --> 00:58:20,840
Speaker 1: the same thing, they both got jealous of it of

1120
00:58:20,880 --> 00:58:23,760
Speaker 1: each other, and she's snooping around on him.

1121
00:58:23,800 --> 00:58:26,160
Speaker 2: Now, this is kind of like last episode we talked

1122
00:58:26,200 --> 00:58:29,800
Speaker 2: about there being no sexual relationship, but people still getting

1123
00:58:29,840 --> 00:58:34,040
Speaker 2: jealous because they feel possessive over who they're married to, yeah,

1124
00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:36,800
Speaker 2: or who they're they're with or whatever. And this is

1125
00:58:36,800 --> 00:58:39,120
Speaker 2: what I was thinking of, was Alveield kind of being like,

1126
00:58:39,320 --> 00:58:42,040
Speaker 2: I don't want you like that anymore, but you're still

1127
00:58:42,040 --> 00:58:44,400
Speaker 2: my husband, and I don't like that you're seeing someone else.

1128
00:58:44,760 --> 00:58:46,320
Speaker 2: She was having a really hard time with it.

1129
00:58:46,480 --> 00:58:50,240
Speaker 1: Even though we're not sexually involved, right, I still feel

1130
00:58:50,240 --> 00:58:54,280
Speaker 1: like we're committed, Like there's some sort of unbreakable partnership

1131
00:58:54,320 --> 00:58:58,120
Speaker 1: between us that you're violating, right, I mean, which honestly

1132
00:58:58,160 --> 00:59:00,800
Speaker 1: just comes down to a sense of ownership that sometimes

1133
00:59:00,840 --> 00:59:03,440
Speaker 1: people feel when they're in relationships, even when they're not

1134
00:59:03,440 --> 00:59:08,080
Speaker 1: committed relationships. That's not necessarily fair, not really. By the

1135
00:59:08,160 --> 00:59:11,800
Speaker 1: nineteen sixties, these two were living pretty separate lives, and

1136
00:59:11,840 --> 00:59:16,080
Speaker 1: i'll Veield purchased a house called Udly Grange and started

1137
00:59:16,120 --> 00:59:19,600
Speaker 1: working on this garden. She had been inspired by Vita

1138
00:59:19,680 --> 00:59:24,720
Speaker 1: Sackville West Gardens. Alveield's garden ended up being so acclaimed

1139
00:59:25,120 --> 00:59:29,200
Speaker 1: that she became this sought after garden designer and landscape expert,

1140
00:59:29,360 --> 00:59:32,360
Speaker 1: and she had clients like the Queen of Jordan and

1141
00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:36,680
Speaker 1: another soon to be ridiculous romantic Mick Jagger.

1142
00:59:37,120 --> 00:59:37,280
Speaker 2: Right.

1143
00:59:38,360 --> 00:59:42,760
Speaker 1: But in nineteen seventies, James and i'll Veield repair their relationship,

1144
00:59:43,040 --> 00:59:45,680
Speaker 1: and i'll Veield nurse James through a serious illness in

1145
00:59:45,720 --> 00:59:48,360
Speaker 1: the eighties and he devoted two years to caring for

1146
00:59:48,400 --> 00:59:50,880
Speaker 1: her until her death in nineteen ninety four.

1147
00:59:51,240 --> 00:59:52,000
Speaker 2: That's nice.

1148
00:59:52,120 --> 00:59:54,760
Speaker 1: It's so weird to me that we're talking about these old,

1149
00:59:54,840 --> 00:59:57,800
Speaker 1: old stories and then they go right up to the nineties.

1150
00:59:57,880 --> 01:00:00,400
Speaker 2: I know, I thought the same thing that it seems

1151
01:00:00,480 --> 01:00:03,480
Speaker 2: like a crazy long time, but you know, it's like a

1152
01:00:03,480 --> 01:00:05,240
Speaker 2: normal amount of normal human life.

1153
01:00:05,560 --> 01:00:09,040
Speaker 1: It just tells me that, you know, nineteen twenty and

1154
01:00:09,120 --> 01:00:12,600
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety four historically are not that far apart from

1155
01:00:12,600 --> 01:00:15,720
Speaker 1: each other, and also that nineteen ninety four was a

1156
01:00:15,880 --> 01:00:17,040
Speaker 1: long ast time ago.

1157
01:00:17,320 --> 01:00:20,840
Speaker 2: That all right, well, we know, you know, Winneretta has

1158
01:00:20,920 --> 01:00:23,440
Speaker 2: died by this point, so that's the last affair of

1159
01:00:24,200 --> 01:00:27,919
Speaker 2: her of her life. But of course Virginia Wolf has

1160
01:00:27,920 --> 01:00:30,360
Speaker 2: come up a numerous times in this story, sure has.

1161
01:00:31,040 --> 01:00:33,600
Speaker 2: We did mention in the last episode. Some scholars think

1162
01:00:33,640 --> 01:00:37,280
Speaker 2: that Winneretta and Virginia Wolf had an affair, while others

1163
01:00:37,320 --> 01:00:40,920
Speaker 2: think she just admired Virginia admired her writing, thought she's

1164
01:00:40,960 --> 01:00:43,560
Speaker 2: a cool lady whatever, and they just became friends. So

1165
01:00:43,600 --> 01:00:47,200
Speaker 2: there's no not a lot of detail or anything. But

1166
01:00:47,480 --> 01:00:49,960
Speaker 2: last time we mentioned that Virginia Wolf had written some

1167
01:00:50,080 --> 01:00:52,720
Speaker 2: kind of mean things about Winneretta. But I found the

1168
01:00:52,720 --> 01:00:56,200
Speaker 2: full quote thanks to at Dyke another day on Twitter

1169
01:00:56,360 --> 01:01:00,360
Speaker 2: with a great handle, an incredible handle, and the full

1170
01:01:00,440 --> 01:01:03,840
Speaker 2: quote is whatever she was born, she's grown into the

1171
01:01:03,880 --> 01:01:07,760
Speaker 2: image of a stately, mellow old tory to look at her,

1172
01:01:07,880 --> 01:01:11,240
Speaker 2: you'd never think she ravished half the virgins in Paris.

1173
01:01:11,560 --> 01:01:14,000
Speaker 1: Oh okay, So out of context, it sounds like she's

1174
01:01:14,000 --> 01:01:15,000
Speaker 1: saying she's ugly.

1175
01:01:14,960 --> 01:01:17,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, But it sounds like it's more about maybe

1176
01:01:17,760 --> 01:01:21,640
Speaker 2: Winneretta being a bit more traditional yeah than other like

1177
01:01:21,680 --> 01:01:23,080
Speaker 2: Mattie Lubarney and stuff.

1178
01:01:23,160 --> 01:01:25,560
Speaker 1: It's like, if I see, like, you know, some stodgy

1179
01:01:25,560 --> 01:01:27,600
Speaker 1: old businessman, I'm not going to be like in the

1180
01:01:27,640 --> 01:01:30,440
Speaker 1: eighties that guy fucked everyone in the East village, you know.

1181
01:01:30,640 --> 01:01:35,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I think that's true. So that that kind

1182
01:01:35,600 --> 01:01:38,320
Speaker 2: of makes it a little different when just just the

1183
01:01:38,360 --> 01:01:40,400
Speaker 2: part about to look at her, you'd never think she

1184
01:01:40,520 --> 01:01:42,720
Speaker 2: ravished half the virgins in Paris makes it sound like

1185
01:01:42,720 --> 01:01:43,640
Speaker 2: she's like, eh, look at that.

1186
01:01:43,640 --> 01:01:47,600
Speaker 1: Ugly right right, Virginia Welf Well, if anyone knew it

1187
01:01:47,600 --> 01:01:50,200
Speaker 1: was her, mm hmmm, my goodness.

1188
01:01:50,880 --> 01:01:54,400
Speaker 2: So yeah, that is all of Winneretto's lesbian liaisons that

1189
01:01:54,440 --> 01:01:55,320
Speaker 2: we know about.

1190
01:01:55,080 --> 01:01:58,560
Speaker 1: And all their stories and all their stories tangled tangled

1191
01:01:58,600 --> 01:01:59,800
Speaker 1: lesbian web they weave.

1192
01:02:00,440 --> 01:02:03,840
Speaker 2: Do you think that Winneretta ever met Harress Crosby and

1193
01:02:03,880 --> 01:02:05,240
Speaker 2: Harry Crosby remember them?

1194
01:02:05,440 --> 01:02:08,720
Speaker 1: Remind me for the listeners Chris.

1195
01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:11,920
Speaker 2: Crosby, of course, is the woman who invented the modern braziers.

1196
01:02:12,040 --> 01:02:14,480
Speaker 2: Oh right, yes, yes, if you remember. And she and

1197
01:02:14,480 --> 01:02:18,720
Speaker 2: her husband Harry were like big and he loved photography

1198
01:02:18,960 --> 01:02:21,240
Speaker 2: and like they had that printing press. I think, I

1199
01:02:21,280 --> 01:02:25,959
Speaker 2: believe in Paris, so I think that they were sort

1200
01:02:25,960 --> 01:02:27,240
Speaker 2: of in similar circles.

1201
01:02:27,800 --> 01:02:29,040
Speaker 1: I don't see why not, but.

1202
01:02:29,200 --> 01:02:32,240
Speaker 2: Anyway, yeah, but they were like very rich Americans too,

1203
01:02:32,320 --> 01:02:34,320
Speaker 2: so they might have gone back to America more often.

1204
01:02:34,320 --> 01:02:35,920
Speaker 2: But I just wondered. I was just thinking. I was like,

1205
01:02:35,960 --> 01:02:39,440
Speaker 2: we have so many people in nineteen twenties Paris, and

1206
01:02:39,480 --> 01:02:41,560
Speaker 2: they're all artists, and they're all you know what I mean,

1207
01:02:41,680 --> 01:02:43,200
Speaker 2: crazy sexual deviance.

1208
01:02:44,240 --> 01:02:46,920
Speaker 1: So you know, it is the weird thing with history

1209
01:02:46,960 --> 01:02:49,280
Speaker 1: where you know, what we have is what was written,

1210
01:02:49,400 --> 01:02:51,400
Speaker 1: and of course all these people in these circles were

1211
01:02:51,400 --> 01:02:55,840
Speaker 1: writing about each other. Yeah, so it feels probably smaller

1212
01:02:55,880 --> 01:02:59,360
Speaker 1: than it was, my guess, because at times it feels like, well,

1213
01:03:00,160 --> 01:03:04,360
Speaker 1: between Paris and Capri, there were eighteen people and they

1214
01:03:04,360 --> 01:03:06,680
Speaker 1: were all sleeping with each other and that's all there was,

1215
01:03:06,880 --> 01:03:09,800
Speaker 1: when in fact, like there's probably so much more happening

1216
01:03:09,840 --> 01:03:13,080
Speaker 1: that you know, in little separate cliques and circles of

1217
01:03:13,240 --> 01:03:16,160
Speaker 1: non writers. I wish we could find out all the

1218
01:03:16,200 --> 01:03:24,440
Speaker 1: lesbians that were farming in yeahs Italy, all those spinach

1219
01:03:24,480 --> 01:03:29,760
Speaker 1: farmers or whatever they grow in Italy. Well, but it's

1220
01:03:29,840 --> 01:03:32,840
Speaker 1: just wild. I'm glad you were able to get it

1221
01:03:32,880 --> 01:03:34,080
Speaker 1: down to something condensable.

1222
01:03:35,280 --> 01:03:37,920
Speaker 2: I hope that everyone followed it, because there was definitely

1223
01:03:38,160 --> 01:03:40,480
Speaker 2: a lot of names, a lot of the same names

1224
01:03:40,520 --> 01:03:42,160
Speaker 2: over there again but years later.

1225
01:03:42,440 --> 01:03:45,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, fascinating stuff. I hope you all enjoyed it as

1226
01:03:45,440 --> 01:03:48,480
Speaker 1: much as we did. Send us a list of all

1227
01:03:48,520 --> 01:03:51,200
Speaker 1: the people you've slept with. We'll read it on air.

1228
01:03:53,000 --> 01:03:56,480
Speaker 2: We were just full name and location, or just let.

1229
01:03:56,520 --> 01:03:58,000
Speaker 1: Us know what you thought of the episode. We'd love

1230
01:03:58,040 --> 01:03:58,440
Speaker 1: to hear that.

1231
01:03:58,480 --> 01:03:59,360
Speaker 2: Too, preferably.

1232
01:03:59,560 --> 01:04:03,000
Speaker 1: Yeah. You can shoot us an email Romance at gmail

1233
01:04:03,000 --> 01:04:03,920
Speaker 1: dot com right or.

1234
01:04:03,920 --> 01:04:06,040
Speaker 2: We're on Instagram. I'm at Dianamite Boom, and.

1235
01:04:06,040 --> 01:04:08,080
Speaker 1: I'm at oh Great at Delai and Quick.

1236
01:04:08,120 --> 01:04:11,400
Speaker 2: Thanks again to Steth Bath for suggesting Winneretta Singer, since

1237
01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:14,560
Speaker 2: we got so many great episodes out of her life. Hopefully,

1238
01:04:14,560 --> 01:04:16,680
Speaker 2: if you have some good suggestions, you can send them

1239
01:04:16,680 --> 01:04:19,000
Speaker 2: our way as well, either with the email address to

1240
01:04:19,200 --> 01:04:21,680
Speaker 2: our instagram's or to the show's instagram at.

1241
01:04:21,600 --> 01:04:24,000
Speaker 1: The dig Romance thanks so much for tuning in and

1242
01:04:24,040 --> 01:04:25,120
Speaker 1: we will catch up with the next one.

1243
01:04:25,280 --> 01:04:28,760
Speaker 2: Love you by right, so long friends, it's time to go.

1244
01:04:29,320 --> 01:04:33,680
Speaker 3: Thanks for listening to our show. Tell your friends names uncles,

1245
01:04:33,680 --> 01:04:36,880
Speaker 3: and to listen to our show, Ridiculous Romance.