1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vandercamp. I'm a mother of five, 2 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:10,240 Speaker 1: an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah Hartunger. 3 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: I'm a mother of three, a practicing physician and blogger. 4 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 1: On the side, we are two working parents who love 5 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 1: our careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds. 6 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, 7 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:25,800 Speaker 1: and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping 8 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 1: out long term career goals. We want you to get 9 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds. 10 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:36,559 Speaker 1: This is Laura. This is episode two hundred and forty eight, 11 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 1: airing in early May of twenty twenty two. Sarah is 12 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:42,839 Speaker 1: going to be interviewing Lisa, who is a listener of 13 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:46,600 Speaker 1: ours who has been making her way through medical school 14 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:49,840 Speaker 1: with a baby. So talk about sort of different ways 15 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:53,200 Speaker 1: one can plan a medical career and growing your family 16 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:56,040 Speaker 1: at the same time. So, Sarah, sor maybe you could 17 00:00:56,080 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 1: remind our listeners when in the process you who began 18 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:04,559 Speaker 1: your family, right, because there's different stages of medical training. Yes, 19 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 1: so I did not have children until my fellowship, so 20 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: my career in training trajectories. Actually I did five years 21 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 1: of medical school because, as I've discussed, I was initially MDPHD, 22 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 1: so I had an extra research year in there and 23 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:21,200 Speaker 1: left with the Masters. So I had five years of 24 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 1: med school slash research. I had three years of pediatrics 25 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:29,279 Speaker 1: residency and three years of pediatric undercronology fellowship. I started 26 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:31,199 Speaker 1: trying to get pregnant around the beginning of my third 27 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 1: year of residency, but was unsuccessful for quite some time 28 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 1: and ended up getting pregnant I think late in my 29 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 1: second year of fellowship, I guess, and then had Annabelle 30 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:43,319 Speaker 1: towards the end, so that's interesting I had, so I 31 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 1: had one full year of fellowship with a baby, which 32 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 1: was mostly a research year, and that was a year 33 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 1: that we used daycare. It was a challenging year, but 34 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: a doable year. So the reason I'm saying that is 35 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 1: because my path is very easy, I think, compared to 36 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 1: having a baby or multiple babies during the medical school 37 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:08,080 Speaker 1: years or the early residency years, when you have a 38 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:11,400 Speaker 1: lot of core rotations that are just incredibly demanding in 39 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 1: terms of as I wrote Route FOROCE hours, like there's 40 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:17,800 Speaker 1: nothing you can do to for example, in the program 41 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 1: that I'm run, like their hospital medicine rotation. Many of 42 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 1: them are in the hospital for close to eighty hours 43 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 1: a week on average, and that includes some night work, 44 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:29,519 Speaker 1: lots of weekend work. There is just not a way 45 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:31,519 Speaker 1: to say, like, well, during that month, you can carve 46 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 1: out lots of balance and time with your baby, Like 47 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:36,240 Speaker 1: eighty hours is a lot of the week one hundred 48 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:38,239 Speaker 1: and sixty eight minus eighty. Mindus, time for sleeping is 49 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:41,080 Speaker 1: not that many hours when you know, factor in self 50 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 1: care and other things. So there are some Not every 51 00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 1: week in residency is like that, mind you, at least 52 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:49,600 Speaker 1: not in our program, maybe in some surgical programs, but 53 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:51,800 Speaker 1: there are some where it's going to be incredibly challenging. 54 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 1: So my heart goes out to these residents and met 55 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 1: students who are doing this and who have made the 56 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 1: choice to do this. And I certainly understand why you 57 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 1: might make the choice to do this based on your 58 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 1: age and fertility constraints and how many children you want 59 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 1: and your life vision or just what ended up happening 60 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:10,280 Speaker 1: in certain cases. But I'm not going to say like, oh, 61 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 1: it's an easy or right choice for everyone, because it 62 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 1: would have to be incredibly challenging. So I'm very excited 63 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 1: to hear what the journey has been like for Lisa, 64 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 1: who has volunteered to share with us on this podcast, 65 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 1: kind of some of the ups and downs of that trajectory. Yeah, 66 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:27,640 Speaker 1: I mean, because, of course, one of the problems of 67 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 1: being in training is that you also aren't as earning 68 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:33,919 Speaker 1: as much as you will later. Although you know, the issues, 69 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 1: of course is that medicine can be a great career. 70 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 1: You know that Sarah's obviously done very well with it, 71 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 1: many of our guests have as well, and it can 72 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 1: be a great career for combining work and family. There's 73 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 1: just some patches of it that are rougher than others, 74 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 1: and so, you know, we encourage people not to write 75 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 1: it off either, oh one hundred percent. I just think 76 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 1: the timing needs to be thought through carefully. Like I 77 00:03:57,400 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 1: would argue that I did it the easy way compared 78 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: to how this person did it. Who knows, maybe if 79 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 1: I had been unlucky, I wouldn't have remained as fertile 80 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: into my late thirties and couldn't have had the number 81 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:10,120 Speaker 1: of kids that I wanted. So I'm not saying to everybody, hey, 82 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 1: put it off whatever, But for me, I feel like 83 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 1: it turned out to be a somewhat lucky thing. The 84 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:18,440 Speaker 1: cash piece is hard too. I mean that really depends 85 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 1: on the partner, right, because if you're a two med 86 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:24,600 Speaker 1: student couple, like nobody's earning money, that's that's difficult. If 87 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 1: you are a two resident couple, you have very little 88 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 1: work life balance despair, Like you can't necessarily rely on 89 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 1: your resident partner to cover on a weekend. They might 90 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 1: be assigned to work that same weekend, so that adds 91 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:38,040 Speaker 1: its own challenges. Plus, residents don't make tons of money 92 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:40,919 Speaker 1: if you have a partner that does something else. And 93 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 1: I had friends in that situation that was like the 94 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:46,600 Speaker 1: easier situation. You know, if somebody's partner was an accountant 95 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:49,360 Speaker 1: or like a lawyer and actually earning like a reasonable 96 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:53,479 Speaker 1: paycheck to help pay for childcare, that certainly makes it 97 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 1: makes it an easier journey. But I do feel like 98 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 1: I had it pretty easy because, yes, my husband was 99 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 1: a fellow, but I was also a fellow in a 100 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:05,600 Speaker 1: fairly flexible subspecialty in the later phases of my fellowship 101 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:08,160 Speaker 1: where it wasn't as much clinical. So and then by 102 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:10,920 Speaker 1: the time we had more multiple kids, we were in 103 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:13,360 Speaker 1: our careers and had enough funds to cover a nanny, 104 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:16,800 Speaker 1: which was, you know, amazing in the right choice for us. So, yeah, 105 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:18,359 Speaker 1: there are so many different ways to do this. Some 106 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:21,280 Speaker 1: are easier than others. But I'm excited to hear this 107 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:24,479 Speaker 1: because it's it's just very different from my experiences. But 108 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 1: there's no one right way, no no one right way. 109 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 1: And if you know, intentionally or not, if somebody finds 110 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 1: themselves expecting a baby in medical school or residency, you 111 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 1: are also not doomed and you are not out wonderfully, 112 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 1: it's gonna be great, and that is that is our 113 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 1: you know, there are always challenges, but you know, one 114 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 1: of our messages here at best of both worlds is 115 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 1: you will You're a smart person and you will figure 116 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:46,279 Speaker 1: it out and it's going to be great and you 117 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:50,160 Speaker 1: have a beautiful career and a beautiful family. So but 118 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:52,040 Speaker 1: but Lisa's definitely got to talk about some of the 119 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 1: challenges too, So we're excited to hear from her, and 120 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 1: so we'll go ahead and dive right into that. I 121 00:05:57,040 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 1: am so excited to welcome Lisa Green on the podcast. 122 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 1: Lisa emailed us and her story was so fascinating to 123 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 1: both Laura and I that we decided she had to 124 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:09,479 Speaker 1: come on and share it, and Lisa has a medical 125 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 1: background as well. She is a medical student at the 126 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:15,240 Speaker 1: University of Kansas. And welcome, Lisa, Thank you so much 127 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 1: for coming on. Thank you so much for having me. 128 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 1: I'm trying not to fangirl a little, but it is 129 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 1: such an honor to be on the podcast and be 130 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 1: able to come and share my story. No, we are 131 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:28,720 Speaker 1: super super happy to have you, and I think I 132 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 1: think we actually do need to make sure we feature 133 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 1: people with different stages of their families and young kids 134 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 1: and training. So I think this is actually a great 135 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:40,559 Speaker 1: episode on so many levels. So Lisa, take us back, 136 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 1: give us a little bit of background, maybe how things 137 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:47,160 Speaker 1: were when you started med school and what you were 138 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 1: thinking about in terms of starting a family, and then 139 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:53,840 Speaker 1: let the listeners know the story that captivated Laura and 140 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:58,680 Speaker 1: I via email. Yeah, so, like doctor har Unger said, 141 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 1: my name is Lisa, and I I am a rising 142 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:03,839 Speaker 1: third year med student. I just because I am Sarah 143 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 1: on this podcast, Sarah, don't call me doctor how dogger? 144 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 1: I feel so bizarre. Oh sorry, sorry, I think that's habit. Sorry, Okay, Sarah, Okay, going, okay, Sorry, 145 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 1: you're thing capt freezing, so I'm like, just take it, Turre, 146 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 1: I'm not messy thingks. Okay. Yeah. So, like Sarah said, 147 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 1: my name is Lisa and I am a rising third 148 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 1: year med student in the Midwest where I live with 149 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 1: my husband Ethan and our fifteen month old son Fits. 150 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 1: And I say that I'm a rising third year med 151 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 1: student because I am actually coming back from a year 152 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 1: of maternity leave that was very, very unexpected. Fitz was 153 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:44,360 Speaker 1: not unexpected, he was planned, but just kind of the 154 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 1: whole story of how I became a new mom, first 155 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 1: time mom in med school did not look anything like 156 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 1: we thought it would. So I am what you would 157 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 1: consider a non traditional med student. So the traditional path 158 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 1: for med school is typically like a four year college 159 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:03,400 Speaker 1: and then you can go straight into med school after 160 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 1: and I just took a little longer to decide what 161 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 1: I wanted to be when I grew up. So I 162 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 1: started med school in my late twenties. And my husband 163 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 1: and I have been together for ten years and we 164 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 1: have been married for five, so we knew that kids 165 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 1: was on the horizon and one thing that we wanted 166 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 1: to weigh while we were trying to figure out when 167 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:26,119 Speaker 1: the best time quote unquote for kids during my training 168 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 1: would be was our support system. So I actually go 169 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:32,199 Speaker 1: to school in the city where my husband and I 170 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 1: both grew up, so both of our families are here, 171 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 1: and so we were like, we'd rather try to do 172 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:40,840 Speaker 1: this while we have family support, which means having a 173 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:43,719 Speaker 1: baby during med school instead of waiting till residency or 174 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 1: hopefully when I'm an attending in the future. So we 175 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:52,320 Speaker 1: planned on starting to try my second year and we 176 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:56,199 Speaker 1: were very fortunate that it went along just as we planned. 177 00:08:56,679 --> 00:09:00,559 Speaker 1: But unfortunately, in the spring of twenty twenty the world 178 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:03,840 Speaker 1: shut down as we're all still recovering from and at 179 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 1: that point there was no undo button because Fitz was 180 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:09,720 Speaker 1: already on board, so we kind of just committed, you know. 181 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 1: We were still so excited, and I think I went 182 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:15,680 Speaker 1: into it with a lot of pressure on myself, not 183 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 1: even with COVID and being in med school, but just 184 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 1: being a working mom and knowing that expectations can be 185 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 1: so difficult, and especially in the medical field, where as 186 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 1: a student you kind of feel like you're under a 187 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 1: magnifying glass twenty four to seven. For any listeners who 188 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 1: aren't in the medical world, they might not realize that 189 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:39,199 Speaker 1: we basically overanalyze everything that we do. You want to 190 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 1: make sure that you're doing everything to get in a 191 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:45,200 Speaker 1: good position for residency and you know, in a good 192 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 1: place with your med school. And I did not want 193 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 1: to be that girl that got pregnant and had a 194 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 1: baby and then you know, all of my med school 195 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:57,840 Speaker 1: aspirations just went out the window. So I went in 196 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 1: newly pregnant in my second year with just a lot 197 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 1: of pressure and a lot of determination to not be 198 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:08,680 Speaker 1: that pregnant med student. Flash forward to January of twenty 199 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:15,960 Speaker 1: twenty one. I gave birth and it was great. But unfortunately, 200 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:20,200 Speaker 1: because I was so determined to not let anything get 201 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 1: in my way, I actually still attended class while in 202 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:27,959 Speaker 1: active labor. So the day I waddled in, we were 203 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:30,600 Speaker 1: still since it was COVID, we were still doing virtual 204 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 1: things throughout school, which actually added to the pressure because 205 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 1: a faculty member had kind of off handedly been like, oh, 206 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 1: you planned this at a perfect time. Everything's virtual, so 207 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:45,960 Speaker 1: you won't miss anything, and I took that that I 208 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:48,320 Speaker 1: didn't really have permission to even ask if I could 209 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:51,880 Speaker 1: miss anything. So I we have a photo of me 210 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:56,439 Speaker 1: laying in the bed having a contraction and still participating 211 00:10:56,760 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 1: in a small group activity. And I remember I hung 212 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 1: up from that smagger of activity and immediately asked for 213 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:06,959 Speaker 1: an epidural. Okay, let's take I have to interrupt for 214 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:09,840 Speaker 1: a second cause I am just like I'm actually even 215 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 1: hearing it. It's very shocking to me. So was there 216 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 1: a plan? Was there a leave plan in place? Like 217 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 1: had you discussed? Okay, when I go into I get 218 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 1: the working up to the labor part. I sort of 219 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 1: get that. I remember submitting a poster when I was like, oh, 220 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:24,160 Speaker 1: my contractors are close together. I guess this is done 221 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:27,080 Speaker 1: submit like not as much as being in class, but 222 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:30,640 Speaker 1: I get that part. But the part where you were 223 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:33,080 Speaker 1: gonna just like it doesn't sound like there was any 224 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:35,560 Speaker 1: discussion of when there would be a break, like oh awesome, 225 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 1: everything's virtual so you can just like have a baby 226 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:41,320 Speaker 1: and like you can hear me struggling. So was there 227 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 1: a conversation? Was there discussion of length of time off? 228 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:46,319 Speaker 1: A plan to make up time that you might miss? 229 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 1: And I hate to ask this, but I'm gonna guess 230 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 1: that whoever, And I'm not throwing anybody under the bus, 231 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:54,080 Speaker 1: but like, was it a woman who had kids who 232 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:57,719 Speaker 1: had met with you. It was not I'll say that 233 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 1: without revealing too much. There wasn't really a plan when 234 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 1: I so when I backing up, when I was newly 235 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:07,199 Speaker 1: pregnant and I found out, I knew very early that 236 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:09,840 Speaker 1: I needed to get my school on board and get involved. 237 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 1: And I had talked to some other Med students in 238 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 1: classes about me who had gone through having a baby, 239 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 1: both you know, women and men at MED students, and 240 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:21,960 Speaker 1: they'd all said the school was wildly supportive, which they were, 241 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 1: but unfortunately a lot of it was advocacy for yourself. 242 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 1: So you kind of had to be the one to 243 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:31,560 Speaker 1: advocate and say, hey, I'm going to take x Y 244 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 1: and Z, I'm going to need x Y and Z. 245 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 1: And I just didn't feel like I had permission to 246 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:41,640 Speaker 1: do any of that, which, looking back, if I could 247 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 1: do it all over again, I would change so many decisions, 248 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: and the very first one would be not being afraid 249 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:49,320 Speaker 1: to ask for what I wanted or what I needed, 250 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 1: because it was you know, it plays such a big 251 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:55,599 Speaker 1: part into my story. I did not take any maternity 252 00:12:55,679 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 1: leave initially, so I was back in class as the 253 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 1: very next day, less than twelve hours after giving birth. 254 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 1: I hopped back on and nobody questioned it. Everyone was 255 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:12,560 Speaker 1: just like, hey, Lisa, and then I I was. I 256 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:16,439 Speaker 1: took an in camp or an in person exam ten 257 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 1: days after giving birth, so I was still for anybody 258 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 1: who's given birth, I was still wearing those postpartum diapers, 259 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:29,040 Speaker 1: dragging all my pumping supplies along, so I was a mess. 260 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 1: And honestly, like when I retell this story, obviously it's horrifying, 261 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 1: especially for people who have been through giving birth and know, 262 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:38,959 Speaker 1: you know, all of just the complications that could have 263 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:40,920 Speaker 1: come up. I was very, very lucky that I didn't 264 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 1: have any major medical complications and that fits was healthy, 265 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 1: and that we had, you know, my husband had time off. 266 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:52,960 Speaker 1: But looking back, I just my cringe. But in the moment, 267 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 1: it was what I needed to do. I really felt 268 00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:58,560 Speaker 1: like this was what I needed to do to avoid 269 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:02,720 Speaker 1: any you know, impact to my career anything like that. 270 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 1: And I remember everyone was like, oh my gosh, Liza, 271 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:09,160 Speaker 1: like I can't believe you're doing it. You're supermom. I 272 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 1: could never do what you're doing. And in a roundabout way, 273 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 1: that kind of fueled the pressure on me because everyone 274 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 1: was like, you're doing great, and even if I felt 275 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 1: like I wasn't doing great. I felt like I had 276 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 1: to live up to those comments and that you know 277 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 1: what everyone was perceiving, which was that I was this 278 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 1: wildly functional, successful second year med student, had a baby 279 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:33,280 Speaker 1: and just kept on rolling. I wish I had a 280 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 1: time machine where I could have told you to email 281 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 1: best of both worlds and ask how you got aw 282 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 1: you might frame this with your mentors or you know, 283 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 1: oh my goodness, like that's so and I really do. 284 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 1: I have to believe that, like, if you had found 285 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 1: the right person to talk to, they would have come 286 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 1: up with so many ideas and alternatives to what ended 287 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 1: up happening. Yeah. Well, and that all kind of plays 288 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 1: into like the secon half of my story, which is, 289 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 1: you know, the first I finished my second year of 290 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 1: med school on time. This was like four or five 291 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 1: months old and step season started, which, again for anyone 292 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 1: who's not familiar, Step one is our very big first 293 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 1: board exam. It's very very lots of pressure, high stakes. 294 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 1: Were like given time off from school all the things, 295 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:24,680 Speaker 1: and I went into you know, one of the big 296 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 1: exams of my life trying to study, and I just 297 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 1: fell apart. It was not good because you're not. I'm 298 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 1: sure you weren't. I'm sure you were not sleeping. I 299 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 1: definitely was able to dedicate like a solid month of 300 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 1: basically just studying while I followed my own schedule, did 301 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:43,880 Speaker 1: whatever I wanted all day, answered to no one, did 302 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 1: a million questions, like I literally can't imagine. We have 303 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:48,040 Speaker 1: to actually take a very quick ad break, and then 304 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 1: I want to I want to continue from that point. 305 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:52,760 Speaker 1: But Lisa, oh my goodness, like I I'm having an 306 00:15:52,760 --> 00:16:09,600 Speaker 1: emotional reaction to this. Okay, we will be right back. Okay, 307 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:12,400 Speaker 1: we are back. So Lisa is she's got a four 308 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 1: month old, she is not sleeping, she's been attending classes 309 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 1: while nursing around the clock, being up all night, and 310 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 1: it sounds like the exam was not the best day. No, 311 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:25,480 Speaker 1: So I actually didn't end up taking step. It really 312 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 1: hit ahead. I did not realize that I had really 313 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:32,360 Speaker 1: severe postpartum depression. I did not check any of the 314 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 1: boxes that they tell you to look out for, so 315 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 1: I didn't think it was me. I just didn't even 316 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 1: recognize it in myself. I loved fits I was bonding 317 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 1: with him, I was happy, I felt joy, So I 318 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 1: just I didn't think depression anxiety was not on my list, 319 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 1: but I remember it all came to head one day. 320 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:54,720 Speaker 1: I had to go to campus in person for a 321 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 1: in person meeting, and my husband and I, because we're 322 00:16:57,760 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 1: both sleep deprived and stressed, had gotten in an our 323 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 1: argument right before and Fitz started crying in the middle 324 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:05,119 Speaker 1: of it, and you know, we're just not having a 325 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:07,640 Speaker 1: good time. And I immediately had to leave, take off 326 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 1: my mom and wife hat and put on my happy 327 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:12,679 Speaker 1: med student hat and like go to med school. And 328 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 1: I had in the week's leading up, I had been 329 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 1: having these little voices in my head saying like maybe 330 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:20,159 Speaker 1: Fits would be better with someone else, Like maybe you 331 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:22,720 Speaker 1: aren't the mom for Fits. Just because I was studying 332 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:25,159 Speaker 1: all the time, I wasn't able to like, you know, 333 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:29,199 Speaker 1: do the Pinterest activities and just coop over him. It 334 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:31,879 Speaker 1: was very all business. He would like lay in his 335 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 1: boppy next to me while I studied. And that day 336 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:36,960 Speaker 1: it just all came to a head. And as I 337 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:39,879 Speaker 1: was driving to school, I remember thinking, like, you know, 338 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 1: Fits is crying because we're arguing, and that is that's 339 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:45,439 Speaker 1: my fault, you know, if I wasn't in med school. 340 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 1: And again, like looking back, it was not rational thinking. 341 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:51,240 Speaker 1: But when you're in the moment, when your new mom, 342 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:53,680 Speaker 1: you're exhausted, you're trying to balance the career, you're trying 343 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:56,320 Speaker 1: to balance figuring out how to keep a human alive, 344 00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:01,960 Speaker 1: it's the most sane reaction. And so I just started driving, 345 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 1: and I my plan was just to drive until I 346 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:08,520 Speaker 1: didn't want to drive anymore. And I laughed because I 347 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:11,160 Speaker 1: actually had to stop at a target, you know, thirty 348 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 1: miles away from our house to buy pumping supplies because 349 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:16,880 Speaker 1: I had forgotten the vows. And so even in this 350 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:22,119 Speaker 1: like absolute emotional meltdown, mental crisis, I was still having 351 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 1: to put on the hat of being a mom, and 352 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 1: that was just it was a break game point, and 353 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 1: I ended up. I'm very very fortunate. We have therapy 354 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:33,720 Speaker 1: services through our school, and I had just started meeting 355 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 1: with her, and my therapist was wonderful at just kind 356 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:41,000 Speaker 1: of hearing this and being like, HI, like, if you 357 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:43,880 Speaker 1: need someone to give you permission to take a break, 358 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you that. So she basically advocated 359 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:50,959 Speaker 1: and was just She set up an appointment with our 360 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:54,879 Speaker 1: dean and said Lisa cannot take step one, she should 361 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:57,880 Speaker 1: not take step one. She needs, she needs to go 362 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:01,879 Speaker 1: and be herself and not have this pressure. And so 363 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:04,720 Speaker 1: that is how I ended up taking a very unexpected 364 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:08,720 Speaker 1: year off. And you know, in the moment, I was devastated. 365 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:10,959 Speaker 1: I felt like I had failed as a med student, 366 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 1: I'd failed as a mom. But now looking back after 367 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:16,600 Speaker 1: the year off, it was the best decision that I 368 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:21,120 Speaker 1: have made, and it has not only not negatively affected 369 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 1: my career so far, but it's really given me perspective 370 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:27,960 Speaker 1: to go back as a med student and just really 371 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 1: be on fire to like fix everything that I went through. 372 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:36,119 Speaker 1: For working moms, I have to get a little bit 373 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 1: of clarity here, what part of you? What was was 374 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:43,959 Speaker 1: there logistical worries about taking time off before? Was it 375 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:48,480 Speaker 1: all just your expectations? Had your partner weighed in on it, 376 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:51,920 Speaker 1: like I'm somebody who took an extra year because I 377 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:55,119 Speaker 1: left my PhD. So I graduated med school in five years, 378 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:56,920 Speaker 1: and I guess I did go to a school where 379 00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:59,399 Speaker 1: a lot of people did extra research time, or some 380 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 1: people did like MBA, So graduating not with your class 381 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 1: was seen as like some people do it, some people don't. 382 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:06,840 Speaker 1: Like it wasn't like you had to go straight through 383 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:09,959 Speaker 1: or something. Terrible would happen. And we also had this 384 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:13,960 Speaker 1: wonderful allergy imanology physician on the podcast a few I 385 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:15,959 Speaker 1: don't know if you heard her. She was awesome, like 386 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:18,719 Speaker 1: maybe a year ago who actually, like I think she 387 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 1: was a pediatrician or internal medicine doctor and then took 388 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 1: like years off, did nothing and then did a fellowship 389 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:26,159 Speaker 1: like way late in life. So totally different path for me. 390 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 1: So we know there are other models that work. Yet 391 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 1: in the moment, it sounds like you were telling yourself 392 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:34,240 Speaker 1: this story that like nope, straight through, only way out, 393 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:38,119 Speaker 1: Like what do you think that was about? Yeah, so 394 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 1: I think part of it came from wanting to be 395 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 1: the exception. I. You know, you hear about again with 396 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:49,120 Speaker 1: the postpartum depression, You hear about the prevalence of that 397 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 1: in women, and you just always think, well, that couldn't 398 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:55,320 Speaker 1: happen to me, And for me it was, well, other 399 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 1: people have to take the year off, but I, you know, 400 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 1: I planned for this, so I'll be fine. And obviously 401 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:05,200 Speaker 1: that is not healthy thinking. You know, I think being 402 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:08,879 Speaker 1: in a competitive field, being in medicine where you already 403 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 1: feel like having you know, wanting to be a mom 404 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 1: can sometimes be seen as a negative strike on your 405 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 1: report card. You know, people would ask me, oh, what 406 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:21,160 Speaker 1: are you gonna do? You know, when you have residency interviews, 407 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:23,920 Speaker 1: what are you gonna do? You know, like where's the 408 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:27,919 Speaker 1: kid gonna go? When you have rotations, which again like 409 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 1: now that I'm on the other side of it, I'm like, 410 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:33,360 Speaker 1: you know, he has we have childcare, Like I can 411 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 1: exist outside of being since his mom. But in the moment, 412 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:40,359 Speaker 1: I really didn't know how to separate those two and 413 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:43,000 Speaker 1: I didn't know how to put the brakes on either 414 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 1: of those paths, either of those identities, And so for me, 415 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 1: it was just I have to keep going. I have 416 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 1: to keep going with both of them, and I can't stop. 417 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 1: And I think the other thing that played into it 418 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 1: was a lot of social media. A fact, I know 419 00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 1: that you're off Instagram right now, and that actually ended 420 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 1: up playing a really big part because it can be 421 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 1: a really great thing. There's a lot of wonderful, wonderful 422 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 1: doctors who are parents on Instagram and Twitter, and they 423 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 1: are just fantastic to follow, But they also make you 424 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:14,960 Speaker 1: feel like you should be able to do it all 425 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:19,440 Speaker 1: because they're doing it all. And I think sometimes I 426 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:22,960 Speaker 1: forgot that I wasn't them. I was in a different 427 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:25,120 Speaker 1: you know, even if I was an attending like them, 428 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:29,160 Speaker 1: I have a totally different story. So I was kind 429 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:32,880 Speaker 1: of competing with these people that I didn't even know 430 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 1: who were doing what I wanted to do, and I 431 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 1: felt like I had to make it look like them 432 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:40,040 Speaker 1: or it looked like they were doing what. Yeah, yes, 433 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:43,400 Speaker 1: which agause you who knows what? And that's so interesting. Yeah, 434 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:45,520 Speaker 1: it's like that hustle I can do it all culture 435 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 1: and like that ass mom, boss, doctor lady, and I've 436 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:51,479 Speaker 1: definitely kind of know what you're getting at. But then 437 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 1: the truth behind some of those is like, Okay, because 438 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:56,440 Speaker 1: you're an Instagram star, you now see patients one day 439 00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 1: a week and you have a staff that follows you 440 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:02,160 Speaker 1: around like it's not and yet you're making it look 441 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 1: like you're super doctor mom and so wow, just I'm 442 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:10,280 Speaker 1: sorry that that played a role, because that makes sense. Yeah. No, 443 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 1: And it's like I said, it's a good thing and 444 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 1: it's a bad thing. And also, we were in the 445 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 1: middle of COVID, so we didn't have you know, we'd 446 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 1: planned to have this baby because we thought we would 447 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 1: have the family care, and we didn't because it was COVID, 448 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:24,600 Speaker 1: so it was kind of a perfect storm. But I 449 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:27,840 Speaker 1: think really the turning point for me was realizing a 450 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:32,639 Speaker 1: identifying that I had postpartum depression and that you know, 451 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:36,000 Speaker 1: it doesn't always look like you are you know, non 452 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 1: functional or you aren't bonding with your kid. Even my 453 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 1: husband we were just talking about this. He said they 454 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:44,160 Speaker 1: talked to him before we left the hospital and gave 455 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:47,200 Speaker 1: him this checklist and he said, I looked at it 456 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,199 Speaker 1: when I felt like something was off, and he's like, 457 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:53,639 Speaker 1: you didn't check any of those boxes. So I think 458 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:58,200 Speaker 1: realizing that that was impacting me more than I thought 459 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 1: it would, and then also getting permission to put on 460 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 1: the breaks, to know that you can do both. You 461 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 1: can do both well. Some people are able to transition 462 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:13,639 Speaker 1: to motherhood and career without having to take a break, 463 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,880 Speaker 1: and some people need to take a break and that's okay. 464 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:25,240 Speaker 1: And also maternity leave is a very important thing. So yes, 465 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 1: we were in the intro to this episode, I talked 466 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 1: about how I feel like I had it so easy 467 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,000 Speaker 1: because I had my first child during like the research 468 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:33,360 Speaker 1: years of my fellowship, and so I don't even understand 469 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:35,159 Speaker 1: the struggle of what it's like to have a baby 470 00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:37,720 Speaker 1: in residency here in medical school. So doing that even 471 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:40,479 Speaker 1: in and of itself is a challenge. So if you 472 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:42,639 Speaker 1: had a med student who is a first year right 473 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 1: now come to you and say, like Lisa, I'm pregnant, 474 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 1: what should I do? What would you tell her? Oh Man, 475 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:54,000 Speaker 1: The first thing I would say is it's gonna be okay. 476 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,800 Speaker 1: I think, even though we had planned, when you get pregnant, 477 00:24:57,800 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 1: when you have a child on the way in any way, 478 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:02,440 Speaker 1: shape or form, if you're planning to adopt anything like that, 479 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 1: it's just nerves. You start freaking out, and it's just 480 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:10,880 Speaker 1: it's a lot. And I think I would tell them 481 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 1: to have a plan. I don't think I advocated for 482 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:17,000 Speaker 1: myself well enough. I wish that I had advocated for 483 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,399 Speaker 1: maternity leave. Again, I took no mattorney leave, and looking 484 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:25,400 Speaker 1: back that that was not well, that was not well planned, 485 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:28,200 Speaker 1: that was not good for my health, and I wish 486 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 1: that I had been more I'm sorry, I'm totally blinking. 487 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:36,639 Speaker 1: I wish I had been more insistent on getting some 488 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:39,840 Speaker 1: kind of a mentor at my med school because I 489 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 1: go to a huge med school and there had to 490 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:46,240 Speaker 1: have been a doctor who was also a mom who 491 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:47,639 Speaker 1: would have been able to kind of tell me a 492 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:51,720 Speaker 1: little more about what to expect. And also I would 493 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:55,320 Speaker 1: just tell you know, past me, even a future med students, 494 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:57,879 Speaker 1: anyone who's in a career where they get pregnant and 495 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:00,119 Speaker 1: they feel like they have to choose or they have 496 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:03,399 Speaker 1: to kind of go for both of those that you 497 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:06,680 Speaker 1: don't have to You don't have to do both well 498 00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 1: the entire time. You can hold both. You can take 499 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 1: time to be you know, more mom for a while, 500 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 1: which is what I've been for the last year, and 501 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:17,880 Speaker 1: then you know, go back to a season where maybe 502 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:20,679 Speaker 1: you're a little more in your job. I would definitely 503 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 1: say take a maternity leave. I love it. Yes, I 504 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:26,919 Speaker 1: think you know, from the supervisory perspective, I don't know 505 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 1: what it's like to work with med students, but I 506 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 1: love it. If a resident came to me, and I've 507 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 1: had many residents, well a lot of them had their babies, 508 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:35,439 Speaker 1: like right before, but I have a lots of residents 509 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:37,320 Speaker 1: with babies, I'll put it that way, and a couple 510 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:39,720 Speaker 1: who have had babies. But when they come to me 511 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:41,199 Speaker 1: and they're like, this is what I want to do. 512 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:42,680 Speaker 1: I want to use these weeks for this, I want 513 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:43,879 Speaker 1: to take this leave, I want to do this and 514 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:46,880 Speaker 1: this Like usually it's like great, oh my gosh, you've 515 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:49,199 Speaker 1: thought about it, like this makes so much sense, and 516 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 1: then we even look at it closer to be like 517 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 1: is that going to be enough recovery time? Like, let's 518 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 1: have a game plan for like what if you don't 519 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 1: feel ready in this case, so like have like different 520 00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 1: pathways and scenarios. But I think the more I mean, 521 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:02,199 Speaker 1: this is planning part of me coming out, but like, 522 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:04,879 Speaker 1: the more you really think about what a realistic re 523 00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 1: entry might look like, a lot of times the people 524 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 1: who are in charge, at least from my experience, will 525 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:11,600 Speaker 1: be like, oh wow, this is very well thought out, 526 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 1: and as long as it's you know, not breaking any rules, 527 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:17,160 Speaker 1: they're going to be so supportive. Yes, And I think 528 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 1: that is the other thing is not being afraid to 529 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:23,320 Speaker 1: ask for what you need because probably no one is 530 00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 1: going to ask for it for you. I think I 531 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,800 Speaker 1: kind of was expecting for, you know, someone to tell 532 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:30,439 Speaker 1: me at some point like Okay, well now you're going 533 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:32,240 Speaker 1: to go on leave, and then they didn't, and I 534 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:36,160 Speaker 1: just assumed that meant that I couldn't, you know, Instead, 535 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:37,960 Speaker 1: of if I had just said, hey, I'm going to 536 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:39,920 Speaker 1: need some time off, I'm sure my school would have 537 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:43,280 Speaker 1: accommodated it, and I just didn't know to ask for that, 538 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:48,119 Speaker 1: And you know, keep that time sacred. So in terms 539 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:50,639 Speaker 1: of your not obviously you totally don't have to have 540 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 1: it like laid out what you're planning to do next, 541 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:54,919 Speaker 1: and you can speak in vagueness if that helps, But 542 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:57,560 Speaker 1: like if you end up planning for future kids or 543 00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,720 Speaker 1: not planning and just having future kids, like, how do 544 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 1: you think you will handle it differently this time around? Again, 545 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:08,000 Speaker 1: I am going to go in with a very firm 546 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:12,800 Speaker 1: demand for time off after giving birth, but I also 547 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:15,480 Speaker 1: think that I'm going to kind of hold it more 548 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:19,520 Speaker 1: loosely the expectations that I have for myself and that 549 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:22,240 Speaker 1: I have for even the baby fits was kind of 550 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:25,680 Speaker 1: like a unicorn baby, and that he's very chill. He 551 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,720 Speaker 1: has just always been just happy to snuggle. So I 552 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:32,919 Speaker 1: did a lot of baby wearing and studying and attending class. 553 00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:35,399 Speaker 1: But I know that, you know, if and when we 554 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:37,720 Speaker 1: choose to have another one, we could have a totally 555 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:43,719 Speaker 1: opposite personality. And so I think just being gentler with 556 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:47,320 Speaker 1: myself and not setting the bar so high that I 557 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 1: am just constantly trying to achieve being the unicorn mom 558 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:54,560 Speaker 1: of the unicorn baby and making it all look easy 559 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 1: and buying into everyone saying that I'm making it look easy. 560 00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:00,480 Speaker 1: And on that note too, I think, think I'm going 561 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,960 Speaker 1: to ask for help so much more next time. Obviously 562 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 1: COVID was a little bit of a factor, but I 563 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:09,720 Speaker 1: also I think I was viewing asking for help kind 564 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 1: of like a weakness. You know, when I had friends 565 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:15,200 Speaker 1: offering to come over and watch him while I studied 566 00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 1: or slept, I had a hard time saying yes. And 567 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,960 Speaker 1: so I think this time around, I'm going to be 568 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 1: a lot better about, you know, saying hey, I would 569 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:26,440 Speaker 1: love some help, and my baby is not going to 570 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 1: love me any less. If he's sleeping on me while 571 00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 1: I study, or if he's sleeping on a friend while 572 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:35,440 Speaker 1: I'm getting some of those study times in, it could 573 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:37,479 Speaker 1: be a new form of therapy, like sitting with a 574 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 1: baby on you. I would sign up for that. I'm 575 00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 1: not will be a friend. I'm like people kept wanting 576 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:45,120 Speaker 1: to cuddle my newborn and you know, and I wouldn't 577 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:47,480 Speaker 1: say yes, And now I'm like, no, I'll hold I'll 578 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 1: hold your new born for you, so I love it. 579 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:54,280 Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, Well, thank you so much for sharing 580 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:56,760 Speaker 1: your story. I think it takes a braveness and a 581 00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 1: boldness and I think it will serve you well in 582 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 1: your next step in your career. So super excited to 583 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 1: hear what you have in store for yourself in the future. 584 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:07,080 Speaker 1: And you'll have to keep us updated. But for now, 585 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 1: let's go into our love of the week. Do you 586 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:12,240 Speaker 1: have a love of the week completely related or unrelated 587 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:15,240 Speaker 1: to share? I do, so I actually thought through too. 588 00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:18,760 Speaker 1: My first one is that I got an air fryer 589 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:23,040 Speaker 1: for Christmas and that has changed our lives. I am 590 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:27,680 Speaker 1: absolutely obsessed. We air fry everything now. Vegetables air fry 591 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:31,720 Speaker 1: I chicken air fry it, pizza air fry it. It 592 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:34,840 Speaker 1: has really really transformed. So I am studying for step 593 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:37,960 Speaker 1: again since I never took it, and being able to 594 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:41,640 Speaker 1: air fry meals that feed the whole family and feed 595 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:46,479 Speaker 1: us quickly has been incredible. And then also my second 596 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,200 Speaker 1: love of the week, which disclaimer, I do work part 597 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 1: time for this company, but I actually love love them, 598 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:56,440 Speaker 1: is an app called Marco Polo, so it's like a 599 00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:00,360 Speaker 1: video messaging app where you can record kind of like 600 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 1: video text messaging. But since I'm studying, I don't have 601 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:05,840 Speaker 1: my phone on me a lot, and it has been 602 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,600 Speaker 1: really really nice to be able to get messages on 603 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:13,400 Speaker 1: my time and then also sharing fits videos with like 604 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:15,920 Speaker 1: family members and friends without having to post them on 605 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:19,959 Speaker 1: Facebook or Instagram, and still sharing how cute he is 606 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,080 Speaker 1: because obviously I'm biased, but I think he's really cute 607 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 1: all the time. Oh my gosh, I bet Marco Polo 608 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:28,000 Speaker 1: has a high percentage of baby videos because I know 609 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:30,040 Speaker 1: my sister loves it to chat with her friends and 610 00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 1: they all have like toddlers and babies. Yes, who doesn't 611 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 1: love a good baby video in your dayically exactly? Well, 612 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:42,360 Speaker 1: mine is very basic. I discovered Justin's extra dark peanut 613 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,160 Speaker 1: butter cups different than the regular dark ones. I would 614 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 1: just happen to be online grocery shopping and I pick 615 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:50,640 Speaker 1: them up and they're super good. They really don't have 616 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:52,760 Speaker 1: think they're like five grams of sugar, Like they're not 617 00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 1: a lot of sugar because it's super super dark chocolate, 618 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 1: but they're really peanut buttery and they're good. So that's 619 00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:00,200 Speaker 1: my new favorite chocolate thing. Are you a dark dark 620 00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:04,040 Speaker 1: chocolate over milk chocolate. Theian. I'm a super dark chocolate person. 621 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:05,840 Speaker 1: Like I like the chocolate that like. People are like, 622 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:08,040 Speaker 1: that's gross because it's bitter, but I think it's good. 623 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:10,000 Speaker 1: It's good. Okay, wait really fast, I have to ask 624 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 1: on the chocolate, what is your favorite brand of dark chocolate. 625 00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 1: I really like THEO a lot. Actually they're based in 626 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:21,840 Speaker 1: California or Seattle, one of those. Actually, I think Seattle, 627 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:23,960 Speaker 1: and I think I smelled their headquarters once when I 628 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 1: was visiting somebody. But THEO is really good. Why would 629 00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:30,560 Speaker 1: you like? Tell me? I'm on the hunt for like 630 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 1: the perfect dark chocolate. It's kind of my reward for 631 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:36,360 Speaker 1: myself when I'm studying, which may not be the healthiest 632 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 1: relationship with food, but we do what we can to 633 00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 1: get through like practice questions. So I just found a 634 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:45,000 Speaker 1: local company that makes dark chocolate. But before that it 635 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:48,240 Speaker 1: was Trader jos Oh, Trader Joe. Is that semi sweet? 636 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:51,280 Speaker 1: That stuff is excellent? Or the bittersweet good taste? Good taste. 637 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:53,680 Speaker 1: We'll try out THEO. They have a lot of good varieties. Yeah, 638 00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:57,200 Speaker 1: thank you hashtag not an ad all right, Lisa, thank 639 00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:00,000 Speaker 1: you so much for coming on. This was a wonderful 640 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:03,400 Speaker 1: conversation and I know it will help others, and so 641 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:07,280 Speaker 1: please if you have comments for Lisa, maybe Laura when 642 00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:08,840 Speaker 1: she does the show notes, you can ask her and 643 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,760 Speaker 1: she can like respond if there's questions or anything. But 644 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:14,440 Speaker 1: I just think this was so informative and a powerful story. 645 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:18,520 Speaker 1: So thank you, yeah, thank you. Well that was that 646 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:21,280 Speaker 1: was very good and a lot of things to think 647 00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:25,680 Speaker 1: about there with Lisa. So this question is another medical 648 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 1: based one. This is our all medicine episode here, but 649 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,400 Speaker 1: this is definitely for Sarah. She says, I've been an 650 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:33,840 Speaker 1: avid listener or avid listener. I got to work on 651 00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:36,560 Speaker 1: that both your podcasts for the past year. Wants to 652 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:38,760 Speaker 1: thank Sarah for all she's doing because this listener, as 653 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:41,920 Speaker 1: an early career physician, looks up to her and has, 654 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 1: you know, hopes everything goes well for Sarah, and she 655 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,440 Speaker 1: says she's weathering through everything with grace. Go Sarah. She 656 00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:49,960 Speaker 1: wants some perspective because she is heading into her last 657 00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 1: year of cardiology fellowship and it's starting the job search process. 658 00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:56,560 Speaker 1: She wants to start a family soon and is of 659 00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:00,440 Speaker 1: course therefore interested in work life balance. Cardiology is a 660 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:03,920 Speaker 1: procedure heavy feel with a heavy emphasis on urvus, which 661 00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:06,480 Speaker 1: Sarah can explain to everyone in a minute. I've recently 662 00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:08,120 Speaker 1: realized that the best fit for me might be a 663 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 1: clinical academic position, and you know, partly for the work 664 00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:14,480 Speaker 1: life balance aspect, partly for some of her non clinical interests. 665 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:17,040 Speaker 1: She says, She's curious whether you'd be willing to share 666 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 1: what your considerations were when finding and negotiating for your 667 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:22,800 Speaker 1: first job. Did you have a systematic way of weighing 668 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:25,000 Speaker 1: the things that were important to you or anything different 669 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:28,960 Speaker 1: you would have done or asked from potential employers. So 670 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:31,439 Speaker 1: this is a great question, I guess I'll first start 671 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:33,719 Speaker 1: with what is an RVU. Anyone in medicine knows, but 672 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:36,200 Speaker 1: it stands for relative value units, which is just a 673 00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:39,080 Speaker 1: way of quantifying how much. Basically, it's like the form 674 00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:41,480 Speaker 1: of billable hours, but for doctors, like based on what 675 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:43,400 Speaker 1: type of visits and procedures you do and how you 676 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,359 Speaker 1: code them, and you know, depending on how productive you are, 677 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:48,680 Speaker 1: you may have a certain number of rvus that you 678 00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:52,080 Speaker 1: earn per month. Some contracts pay you based on the RVU, 679 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,879 Speaker 1: many some don't, And so that's actually an important thing 680 00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:58,239 Speaker 1: to look at. So I made this list. Now the 681 00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:01,080 Speaker 1: caveat before I even read the list is you cannot 682 00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:03,280 Speaker 1: walk into an interview and like just ask these things 683 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:07,239 Speaker 1: like you will not get the job. You have to, 684 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:11,239 Speaker 1: you know, demonstrate your excitement, your interests. Of course, you know, 685 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:13,120 Speaker 1: you have to have done your homework and learn all 686 00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:16,160 Speaker 1: about the program, knowing its strengths, knowing maybe some of 687 00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:18,440 Speaker 1: the past accomplishments of the people you're interviewing. With all 688 00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:21,840 Speaker 1: these things, and then once you get a sense that 689 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,680 Speaker 1: they want you, or perhaps you can kind of like 690 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:27,200 Speaker 1: read between the lines with different interviewers, you can get 691 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:29,400 Speaker 1: the answers to some of these questions. But I have 692 00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:32,560 Speaker 1: seen it where people kind of come in like with 693 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:36,840 Speaker 1: this checklist of wants, and particularly like the people senior 694 00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:39,440 Speaker 1: to me are like, oh no, like we can't like, oh, 695 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:41,839 Speaker 1: it's just another person who wants to protect her work 696 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:43,560 Speaker 1: life balance. And to me, I'm like, well, what's wrong 697 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,520 Speaker 1: with that? Right? But there's definitely still this cultural like 698 00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:52,640 Speaker 1: pretending that you want to give your entire life into 699 00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:57,120 Speaker 1: this without concern for anything else, being like the default. 700 00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:00,640 Speaker 1: And I don't even mean that in like an indivi way, 701 00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:02,360 Speaker 1: but I guess I would just be careful because you 702 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:04,560 Speaker 1: can turn some people off even though I have one 703 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,040 Speaker 1: hundred percent like know where you're coming from, and I 704 00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:08,920 Speaker 1: think you do need to figure out the answers to 705 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:11,880 Speaker 1: some of these tougher questions. So that was my big 706 00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:16,919 Speaker 1: caveat slash disclaimer. So to me, if I were looking 707 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:20,239 Speaker 1: for another job, very important things would be what does 708 00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:22,719 Speaker 1: the call schedule look like? So is it reasonable? Is 709 00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:25,279 Speaker 1: it fair? Is it an acceptable lifestyle for myself and 710 00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:27,879 Speaker 1: my family? How busy is call? Like? How many times 711 00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:29,160 Speaker 1: do you get woken up per night? Do you have 712 00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:31,719 Speaker 1: to come in? Like? What does that look like? What 713 00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,520 Speaker 1: does the patient template look like? Is it reasonable? I'm 714 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:35,880 Speaker 1: not saying like, oh, you want to see like as 715 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:37,680 Speaker 1: few patients as possible per day, because not at all. 716 00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:39,239 Speaker 1: You want to be efficient. You want to be able 717 00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:41,160 Speaker 1: to get your patients in and see them, but to 718 00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:43,239 Speaker 1: make sure that it's like realistic or that you have 719 00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:45,759 Speaker 1: good clinical support so that people don't feel like they 720 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:48,560 Speaker 1: are kind of running up against a clock and always 721 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:50,160 Speaker 1: losing at the end of every day. So you can 722 00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:53,520 Speaker 1: kind of get a sense if you ask people kind 723 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:55,719 Speaker 1: of what does a normal clinic day look like for you, 724 00:36:55,719 --> 00:37:00,279 Speaker 1: you'll probably get a sense about the answer to that. Support. Now, 725 00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:02,279 Speaker 1: this is huge, and this is a current crisis in 726 00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:05,640 Speaker 1: healthcare because so many people are leaving healthcare and the 727 00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:09,320 Speaker 1: support staff positions, and maybe this will change it hopefully 728 00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:12,879 Speaker 1: is a short term thing, but I would find out, 729 00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:16,520 Speaker 1: like who does the prior authorizations? I am very lucky 730 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:18,680 Speaker 1: and I hope this stay is true, but I don't 731 00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:21,040 Speaker 1: ever do my own prior authorizations, which is like the 732 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:23,359 Speaker 1: negotiations you have to do with insurance to get your 733 00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:28,360 Speaker 1: patient's medicines covered. We have nurses and other staff members 734 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,120 Speaker 1: that do those, and I'm incredibly grateful for that. And 735 00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:33,000 Speaker 1: if I were ever looking for another job, which I'm 736 00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:35,160 Speaker 1: not planning to, but if I did, that would be 737 00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:36,799 Speaker 1: like my one of my questions that I would ask 738 00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:38,560 Speaker 1: towards the end, like who does the prior aufice in 739 00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:41,640 Speaker 1: your office? Or what is the procedure for prior authorizations? 740 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:45,640 Speaker 1: Collegiality is really really important, so you want to figure 741 00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:49,320 Speaker 1: out Again hard to ask this directly, but really watch 742 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:52,600 Speaker 1: the interactions that go on. Do people like each other? 743 00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:55,319 Speaker 1: Do people treat each other nicely? Do the staff and 744 00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:57,439 Speaker 1: the physicians seem to have a nice rapport or does 745 00:37:57,480 --> 00:37:59,520 Speaker 1: it seem like you know, both levels are sort of 746 00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:02,879 Speaker 1: like at odds with each other. Do the colleagues want 747 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:06,200 Speaker 1: to like have casual conversations and get togethers outside of work. 748 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,239 Speaker 1: I love the people I work with. I consider it 749 00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:12,440 Speaker 1: like a huge benefit to my job in and of itself, 750 00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:17,000 Speaker 1: And so I just I can't imagine, I don't know, 751 00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:20,480 Speaker 1: having a work situation where you didn't have a really 752 00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:24,080 Speaker 1: nice and friendly atmosphere where people were free to communicate 753 00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:26,640 Speaker 1: but also like genuinely cared for each other. So getting 754 00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,160 Speaker 1: a sense of that is important. Then there's like the 755 00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:31,360 Speaker 1: math stuff, like so what's the cost of living? That 756 00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:33,919 Speaker 1: can matter more than the salary. The salary might be double, 757 00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:36,360 Speaker 1: but if you're living in the Bay Area you will 758 00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:39,560 Speaker 1: not feel it whatsoever. So looking at kind of like 759 00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:41,799 Speaker 1: the ratio between what the area cost to live and 760 00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:44,399 Speaker 1: what the salary looks like is very important. So don't 761 00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:47,399 Speaker 1: just take salary at face value. Think about even things 762 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:49,240 Speaker 1: like schools, like will you be able to live somewhere 763 00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:51,560 Speaker 1: that the public schools will serve your family or where 764 00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:55,200 Speaker 1: you have to or consider investing in or not investing 765 00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:57,319 Speaker 1: but wanting to pay for private school, like factor all 766 00:38:57,400 --> 00:38:59,520 Speaker 1: of these things in because it's not just a raw 767 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:03,799 Speaker 1: number calculation. And then finally, is this what is the 768 00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:07,080 Speaker 1: kind of compensation model? And there's no right answer to this. 769 00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:09,359 Speaker 1: It's going to vary depending on what kind of health 770 00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:11,279 Speaker 1: system it is, whether it's a private practice or a 771 00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:15,000 Speaker 1: larger hospital owned group. But you know, some are RVU based, 772 00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:17,839 Speaker 1: some are bonus based, some are salaried. You really want 773 00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:20,239 Speaker 1: to again, once the job's been offered to you and 774 00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:23,320 Speaker 1: they're waiting for you to sign your portion, you want 775 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:26,520 Speaker 1: to really understand what this model looks like, because I 776 00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:29,560 Speaker 1: have heard some sad stories of people who like signed 777 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:33,000 Speaker 1: all RVU based contracts but then found that they weren't 778 00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:36,160 Speaker 1: busy and that they couldn't drum up the business that 779 00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:38,319 Speaker 1: they needed. It wasn't that they were being lazy, but 780 00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:40,239 Speaker 1: like they're like, I need to see more patients to 781 00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:43,480 Speaker 1: earn these rvus, but like, unfortunately there aren't enough, and 782 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:46,880 Speaker 1: then you're sort of stuck. And again I've heard like 783 00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:49,040 Speaker 1: horror stories about people having to like pay back portions 784 00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:52,640 Speaker 1: of salary. Again nothing from my personal experience, just talking 785 00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:57,280 Speaker 1: about friends in other random places. So just be careful 786 00:39:57,320 --> 00:39:59,279 Speaker 1: and look at all of that, and then location might 787 00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:01,520 Speaker 1: trump everything because you may want to be in your 788 00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:03,640 Speaker 1: family or you may have a ties to a certain area. 789 00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:05,759 Speaker 1: And I'll admit that I didn't do any of this 790 00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:07,839 Speaker 1: really in my job search. Well, I guess I did 791 00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:10,960 Speaker 1: pay attention to collegiality when I took my job, and 792 00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:12,320 Speaker 1: I feel like I lucked into a lot of the 793 00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:15,840 Speaker 1: other aspects, but I was location constrained. I knew I 794 00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:18,840 Speaker 1: wanted to be in South Florida, and as a subspecialist, 795 00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:21,279 Speaker 1: there weren't like a million different options to choose from, 796 00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:23,960 Speaker 1: so I only looked at two and it ended up 797 00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:27,879 Speaker 1: working out really well for me. But statistically I think 798 00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:29,799 Speaker 1: something like, well, I don't know the percentage, but it's 799 00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:32,440 Speaker 1: fairly high percentage of physicians do change jobs within a 800 00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:36,480 Speaker 1: few years. So just like, be careful about the details, 801 00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:39,600 Speaker 1: and also look at what the exit clauses are like 802 00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:41,719 Speaker 1: as well. If you do change your mind, are you 803 00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:44,400 Speaker 1: allowed to exit your contract without a problem, or is 804 00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:46,640 Speaker 1: there going to be certain things that you have to 805 00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:48,759 Speaker 1: you know, pay back or are tied to from a 806 00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:52,400 Speaker 1: location perspective, all good things to do. I would just 807 00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:55,160 Speaker 1: add one thing to this because I think people can 808 00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:57,400 Speaker 1: get a little bit too hung up on the question 809 00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:00,920 Speaker 1: of work life balance. I think it's very important, but 810 00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:03,719 Speaker 1: we sometimes say like, oh, well, this is a version 811 00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:05,759 Speaker 1: of the job that has good work life balance and 812 00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:09,040 Speaker 1: everything else is not. Like, if you truly truly want 813 00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:11,840 Speaker 1: to be clinical academic position, that's great if that is 814 00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:14,600 Speaker 1: what you want to be doing. I would caution that 815 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:17,640 Speaker 1: sometimes if you're in a good busy practice, you could 816 00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:20,200 Speaker 1: be earning as much doing procedures three days a week 817 00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:23,560 Speaker 1: as you would be in sort of an academic setting 818 00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:28,400 Speaker 1: working five days a week. And so like you, you know, 819 00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:33,359 Speaker 1: you might have a better balance working part time doing 820 00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:38,240 Speaker 1: procedures versus you know, a job that is lower paid 821 00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:40,960 Speaker 1: and full time but theoretically has better work life balance. 822 00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:45,200 Speaker 1: It's just don't automatically go with the assumption of what 823 00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:48,240 Speaker 1: is a good job for a woman with a family 824 00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:50,160 Speaker 1: and what is not a good job for a woman 825 00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:53,760 Speaker 1: with a family, because I think sometimes the higher paid 826 00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:59,080 Speaker 1: jobs offer more ability to make things work than some 827 00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:01,040 Speaker 1: other ones do. So I would just put that out 828 00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:05,520 Speaker 1: there interesting. I think really like asking the people in 829 00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:07,839 Speaker 1: the practice what does their lifestyle look like is going 830 00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:10,959 Speaker 1: to be a lot of the best indicator in terms 831 00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:12,640 Speaker 1: of will this fit you? Just take me through a 832 00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:14,040 Speaker 1: week in the life, Take me through a day in 833 00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:16,440 Speaker 1: the life. You know, are you what happens if your 834 00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:18,920 Speaker 1: kids are home from school? Like actually learning what it 835 00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:21,279 Speaker 1: looks like for others because you're probably well, there are 836 00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:23,680 Speaker 1: some fields that are extremely male dominated, so there may 837 00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:28,319 Speaker 1: not be a model for this, but in many including cardiology, 838 00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:30,000 Speaker 1: there's going to be probably at least some women that 839 00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:31,759 Speaker 1: you can talk to about, you know, how it looks 840 00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:33,200 Speaker 1: for them and whether that sounds like it would be 841 00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:36,880 Speaker 1: workable for you. Yeah, sounds good. All right, Well, this 842 00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:39,640 Speaker 1: has been best of both worlds. It's been a medicine 843 00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:43,839 Speaker 1: focused episode or talking with our listener Lisa about having 844 00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:45,880 Speaker 1: a baby in medical school and what that looks like. 845 00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:48,279 Speaker 1: We will be back next week with more on making 846 00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:52,839 Speaker 1: work and life fit together. Thanks for listening. You can 847 00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:56,359 Speaker 1: find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com or at 848 00:42:56,480 --> 00:43:00,040 Speaker 1: the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you can find me 849 00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:04,200 Speaker 1: Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has been the 850 00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:07,680 Speaker 1: best of both worlds podcasts. Please join us next time 851 00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:10,600 Speaker 1: for more on making work and life work together.