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Speaker 1: You're listening to Math and Magic, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: I am always open to new ideas, open to new people,

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Speaker 1: open to new clients, because that's where the future is.

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Speaker 1: The future isn't where people are frozen in a position

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Speaker 1: or in a place. It's thinking about what is the

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Speaker 1: next step. Hi, I'm Bob Pittman, and welcome to this

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Speaker 1: episode of Math and Magic. Today, we're going to explore

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Speaker 1: the insider's view of deals and strategy and business, especially

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Speaker 1: the entertainment and media business. Our guest today has seen

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Speaker 1: it all. It's been in the middle of it all,

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Speaker 1: and has even been inducted into the Rock and Roll

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Speaker 1: Hall of Fame. He's a true insider, it's deal maker

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Speaker 1: extraordinaire and, as some call him, super lawyer Alan Grugman

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Speaker 1: Alan is Brooklyn born Brooklyn Law School, and still wears

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Speaker 1: it all as his identity. He represents Bruce Springsteen, Elton,

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Speaker 1: John Madonna, YouTube, Lady Gaga, John mellycamping on and on.

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Speaker 1: As a child, he's sang show tunes on an NBC

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Speaker 1: Children's hour every week, that is, until his voice changed,

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Speaker 1: and as an adult, he still has the comfort of

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Speaker 1: being a performer and knows how to engage his audience.

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Speaker 1: He's on the inside as a friend and trusted advisor

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Speaker 1: to legends like David Geffen, as well as executives and artists.

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Speaker 1: He represents he is the guy who was in the

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Speaker 1: room and really knows what happened. He's been my close

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Speaker 1: friend and advisor for over forty years. He was instrumental

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Speaker 1: in building him TV in the early days, and he

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Speaker 1: continued his relationship there long after I left, and he's

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Speaker 1: even been key to us as we've built iHeartMedia. But

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Speaker 1: most of all, he's a great human who cares deeply

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Speaker 1: about others. Alan welcome. Thank you very very much for

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Speaker 1: that introduction. Before we get started. We have a thing

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Speaker 1: we do on math and Magic. Called you in sixty seconds.

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Speaker 1: You're ready shoot. Do you prefer cats or dogs? Dogs

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Speaker 1: early riser or night owl? Very early riser? East Coast

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Speaker 1: or West Coast? East Coast for sure? Frank Sinatra or

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Speaker 1: Bruce Springsteen. I think Bruce won't be too pissed off.

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Speaker 1: Frank Sinatra, HMTV or iHeartRadio, iHeartRadio AM or FM FM,

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Speaker 1: The Beatles or the Rolling Stones, Beatles call or text

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Speaker 1: call without a doubt, it's about to get Harder, favorite

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Speaker 1: era of music, the American Songbook. Favorite TV show Curb

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Speaker 1: Your Enthusiasm, favorite radio station, Seriously Sinatra, favorite movie The Godfather, movies,

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Speaker 1: favorite actor Robert de Niro. Favorite city New York. Then

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Speaker 1: right behind New York is Paris and London. You got

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Speaker 1: a quote to live by. If you do right by people,

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Speaker 1: they'll end up doing right by you. What did you

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Speaker 1: want to be when you were growing up? I wanted

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Speaker 1: to be in the entertainment business. And when I realized

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Speaker 1: that I had no talent, the second best thing was

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Speaker 1: to be an entertainment lawyer. That doesn't involve that much talent. Okay,

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Speaker 1: let's start with the music business. The music business has

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Speaker 1: made many transitions. To forty five to the LP cassette

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Speaker 1: tapes CDs was a big move, But the biggest and

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Speaker 1: most disruptive of my life was to transition to digital downloads,

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Speaker 1: which also moved from consumers buying one track instead of

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Speaker 1: entire album. Many experts thought the industry would not survive it,

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Speaker 1: and indeed Limblevotnik bought Warner Music for what at the

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Speaker 1: moment seemed like a high price. Today, in retrospect, seems

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Speaker 1: like the deal of the century, streaming subscription services were

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Speaker 1: placed downloads and the industry rebounded, And today Universal, Sony

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Speaker 1: and Warner are healthier and more valuable than they've ever been,

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Speaker 1: and the indies are too. So here's the question, what's

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Speaker 1: the next issue lurking out there that the music industry

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Speaker 1: will have to contend with? What's hanging over them? Well,

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Speaker 1: that's the sixty four dollar question. What they're doing now

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Speaker 1: is reaping the benefits of streaming, which delights them beyond belief.

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Speaker 1: In other words, they might be thinking of what comes

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Speaker 1: after streaming, but right now they are basking in the

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Speaker 1: sun of streaming. Warner Music was worth five billion dollars

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Speaker 1: four billion dollars three billion dollars what he bought it,

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Speaker 1: and now it's worth seventeen UMG. At one point before

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Speaker 1: streaming was worth five billion. I think now it's training

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Speaker 1: at in the thirties, and the same thing Persny. What

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Speaker 1: has dramatically changed is the distribution of music turned these

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Speaker 1: companies into gold mines. And not necessarily because the talent

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Speaker 1: has increased dramatically, but the way you distribute the talent

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Speaker 1: has increased dramatically. So I don't think they're trying to

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Speaker 1: figure out what the next move is. I think they're

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Speaker 1: focusing on how to expand as much as possible their

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Speaker 1: ability to generate money from streaming. But if you ask

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Speaker 1: them what comes after streaming, I think that also applies

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Speaker 1: for a Netflix and Disney. Plus I think it's the

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Speaker 1: same issue, what comes after streaming. I don't think anybody

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Speaker 1: has an answer, but they're not concerned about having an

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Speaker 1: answer because they have minting money with the streaming approach,

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Speaker 1: especially the music companies. In media and television, et cetera

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Speaker 1: is a little different, but in the music business, the

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Speaker 1: streaming has turned into a proverb your gold mine. In

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Speaker 1: our lifetime, Alan, you and I saw the transition from

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Speaker 1: albums to CDs. We saw that terrible transition from CDs

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Speaker 1: to stream its song by song on Apple, and then

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Speaker 1: we've seen the transition to subscription, which has actually made

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Speaker 1: the industry healthy again. As you point out any big

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Speaker 1: lessons from these past dislocations and transitions, yes, you cannot

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Speaker 1: be afraid of transition. Remember Napster, which was the early

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Speaker 1: form of what we're talking about. The record companies was

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Speaker 1: so frightened that they literally killed Napster. I was representing Napster.

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Speaker 1: I was trying to work out arrangements with the three

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Speaker 1: companies or four companies, whatever was, and they were so frightened,

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Speaker 1: and what they were frightened of actually turned out to

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Speaker 1: be the greatest thing that have happened to them. So

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Speaker 1: I think that if people don't view progress and new

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Speaker 1: opportunities with open arms, that make you a huge mistake.

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Speaker 1: And every time companies are afraid of the future, they

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Speaker 1: usually die. And when the CD came out, and I

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Speaker 1: remember I was at Warner Communications was running MTV at

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Speaker 1: the time. Somebody brought out the CD player. He was

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Speaker 1: from Japan. They have to have a little transformer so

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Speaker 1: we could play it in the US, and they put

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Speaker 1: the CD on. The lawyers said, oh my god, that's

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Speaker 1: a master quality recording. We have to stop the CD.

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Speaker 1: And Warner I remember it was Bob Krauss now and

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Speaker 1: a few guys said, what are you crazy. This is

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Speaker 1: this is the future. We've got to get aboard. And

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Speaker 1: they won. And when the downloads came and digital came

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Speaker 1: and Napster came, it was the same argument, except this

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Speaker 1: time the lawyers said we have to stop it. In

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Speaker 1: the lawyers one, people are afraid of the unknown, that's

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Speaker 1: always been the case, not only in our industry but

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Speaker 1: in life. But the CD when it finally became popular,

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Speaker 1: every person who had an LP album had to go

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Speaker 1: buy the same album in a CD. And during the

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Speaker 1: eighties the record business laurished because of CDs. It's very

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Speaker 1: similar to what happened with streaming. It's generating ten times

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Speaker 1: more buddy than it did when people were buying individual

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Speaker 1: tracks or whatever you want to call it. So what

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Speaker 1: I've learned in life is I am always open to

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Speaker 1: new ideas, open to new people, open to new clients,

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Speaker 1: because that's where the future is. The future isn't where

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Speaker 1: people are frozen in a position or in a place.

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Speaker 1: It's thinking about what is the next step. Let's go

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Speaker 1: back on the CDs a little bit. Do you think

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Speaker 1: we would have made the transition to digital finally if

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Speaker 1: it had not been for Steve Jobs. It's a very

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Speaker 1: good question, I would say that. But Steve Jobs did

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Speaker 1: that interim step allowed streaming to come along and be accepted.

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Speaker 1: If there was no Steve Jobs and he didn't create

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Speaker 1: what he created, I think it would have been much

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Speaker 1: more difficult for the record companies to accept streaming. And

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Speaker 1: do you think the record business, the music business would

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Speaker 1: still be in the dulg rum because if not for

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Speaker 1: the subscription services like Spotify, Apple and Amazon, oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: they'd be slepping along. Oh yeah, it would be entirely different.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I can't even perceive of where the record

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Speaker 1: business would be today without streaming. You had a long

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Speaker 1: history and have had a long history of representing artists,

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Speaker 1: and many credit you personally for finally getting artists the

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Speaker 1: money they deserve, yet not undermining the music companies to

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Speaker 1: help them get that revenue. When did that change began

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Speaker 1: and was there a particular deal that was the tipping point?

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Speaker 1: Over time, as I developed more of a reputation, I

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Speaker 1: had credibility. I was representing so many artists that the

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Speaker 1: record companies had to listen to what I said and

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Speaker 1: had to concede to some of the important points that

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Speaker 1: I want, which was creative control more than they had before,

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Speaker 1: and financial control in other words, making much better financial deals,

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Speaker 1: and also the ownership of masters that came along as

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Speaker 1: I developed more credibility and I became more powerful as

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Speaker 1: an entity, so that when I was dealing with a

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Speaker 1: record company and they knew that they weren't dealing with

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Speaker 1: me with one artist, but they were dealing with me

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Speaker 1: with twenty artists. I was able to accomplish war. And

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Speaker 1: I always remembered one of my first clients, who should

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Speaker 1: be nameless, had an artist on his label, and the

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Speaker 1: guy had a huge hit, and I said, well, Jesus,

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Speaker 1: you must owe this guy a fortune. No, no, no,

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Speaker 1: you know what I did. I rented him a Cadillac

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Speaker 1: or I bought him. In other words, artists just weren't

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Speaker 1: getting paid. They were just getting screwed, and it was terrible.

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Speaker 1: So as time went by, and I recognized this as

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Speaker 1: well as many other people, but thank god, I eventually

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Speaker 1: created enough power to be able to change it. Now

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Speaker 1: artists are paid beyond properly. The companies that are in

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Speaker 1: the music business, all major public companies, and artists are

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Speaker 1: now getting their due. They're getting their due in the

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Speaker 1: areas I just described financially creatively and certain owned their masters.

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Speaker 1: And I'm very proud of that because I think that

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Speaker 1: if there's one contribution I've made to the record industry

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Speaker 1: was what I was able to accomplish for artists. So

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Speaker 1: let me give you a tip of the hat here.

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Speaker 1: You weren't always Alan Grugman. When I met you're back

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Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty you were the guy on the rise,

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Speaker 1: but not yet the biggest in the business, But in

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Speaker 1: my mind you were the smartest. Probably not many people

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Speaker 1: know this story, but MTV was in danger of being

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Speaker 1: shut down in the first few years. My boss was

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Speaker 1: fired about a year after MTV launched. By the way,

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Speaker 1: because of that, I got to move from the creative

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Speaker 1: side running the product to really building the company as

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Speaker 1: the COO. But it's interesting to me that when I

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Speaker 1: sort of hit that and I went from being you

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Speaker 1: got to make a successful product, which we did, and

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Speaker 1: then my next challenge was we got to figure out

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Speaker 1: how to make money. Because the other folks here have

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Speaker 1: not been successful that they're gone, it's you're on your back.

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Speaker 1: I reached out to you, and you were not just

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Speaker 1: a lawyer for us. You were a full partner in

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Speaker 1: developing the business strategy and operating plan. You made that

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Speaker 1: jump from being the lawyer to being the business strategist

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Speaker 1: who as a consultant and trusted advisor to many businesses

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Speaker 1: and executives. How did you make the jump? I always

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Speaker 1: believed that to be a great lawyer you have to

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Speaker 1: be a great businessman. So as soon as I started

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Speaker 1: practicing law and obtaining clients, I would always be interested

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Speaker 1: did in the reasoning that they had for their business decisions.

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Speaker 1: I was never the kind of lawyer that could sit

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Speaker 1: down and draft contracts or could come up with the

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Speaker 1: legal arguments. What I had was an enormous amount of

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Speaker 1: common sense and an understanding of the law and an

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Speaker 1: understanding of business. So as time went by and I

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Speaker 1: built the law firm and it got bigger and bigger,

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Speaker 1: my responsibilities for doing the legal work became less. And

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Speaker 1: this great group of lawyers we have here, they took

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Speaker 1: care of the law and I focused on advising clients,

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Speaker 1: coming up with ideas and negotiating very interesting, lucrative, non

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Speaker 1: traditional deals for them. But I always considered myself more

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Speaker 1: of a businessman than a traditional lawyer, and it worked

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Speaker 1: out fine. I always said, I'm a businessman first and

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Speaker 1: a lawyer second. So how did having that bigger pick

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Speaker 1: your view and that higher level access in a company

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Speaker 1: helped the artist you represented? Oh? In my opinion, life

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Speaker 1: is all about relationships. The greater the relationships you have

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Speaker 1: with people, the more positive relationships you have with people,

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Speaker 1: the more they're going to do for you. So when

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Speaker 1: I would sit down and negotiate a contract with a

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Speaker 1: superstar and I'm dealing with the CEO of the company,

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Speaker 1: who I have a professional relationship with, a personal relationship, etc.

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Speaker 1: I will do better for my client, the artist, because

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Speaker 1: of my relationship with the person I'm dealing with. Then

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Speaker 1: if I didn't have a relationship, take your two hands

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Speaker 1: and put one finger six inches or twelve inches away

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Speaker 1: from the other finger. In every negotiation, the finger on

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Speaker 1: the left is the minimum that you will get, no

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Speaker 1: matter what your relationship was. That's the minimum you're going

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Speaker 1: to get. And the right finger is the maximum you're

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Speaker 1: going to get, no matter if the guy's your brother lawyer,

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Speaker 1: he's not going to give you more than that. But

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Speaker 1: if you have great relationships, you will get closer to

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Speaker 1: the right finger than you will to the left finger

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Speaker 1: because there's a good feeling there, and especially if I'm

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Speaker 1: representing people who are worthy of it. But I've seen

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Speaker 1: artists get terrible deals because their representatives had terrible relationships

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Speaker 1: with the companies. So relationships is critically important in being

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Speaker 1: successful in any industry, especially the entertainment industry. So talk

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Speaker 1: about how you know you've done a good deal. Well,

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Speaker 1: you know something, I really believe that the best deals

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Speaker 1: ever made are the deals where both parties walk away

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Speaker 1: not one hundred percent happy. So, in other words, if

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Speaker 1: I'm representing a client and I know I've done a

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Speaker 1: really good deal, I know that I didn't take the

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Speaker 1: last cent I can get from the person I'm negotiating with.

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Speaker 1: Because when you make a deal, when one person thinks

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Speaker 1: that they killed it and the other person thinks that

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Speaker 1: they get screwed, the person that got screwed is waiting

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Speaker 1: for the moment to get even. Well, you know, if

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Speaker 1: Steve Ross had that same philosophy, don't destroy people in

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Speaker 1: the process because you've got to be in business with them.

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Speaker 1: What is that great mafia line. You don't wound your enemies,

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Speaker 1: you kill them. The idea here is if you negotiate

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Speaker 1: and you end up wounding a person, he's going to

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Speaker 1: come back and try to kill you. You know. And

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Speaker 1: what I've been told my whole career is that my

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Speaker 1: talent is everybody walks away feeling okay, and I've made

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Speaker 1: phenomenal deals for my clients. And by the way, the

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Speaker 1: other side, at the end of the day, will say,

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Speaker 1: you know, Alan got all this from us, but you

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Speaker 1: know what, we feel okay about it for whatever reasons,

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Speaker 1: and that's been a tremendous asset to me. So again,

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Speaker 1: you don't want to make killer deals. You want to

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Speaker 1: make phenomenal deals, but you don't want to go over

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Speaker 1: the edge. You know, you're famous for keeping negotiations friendly

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Speaker 1: and often funny. It's not just your personality or is

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Speaker 1: that your strategy. Both you can get more done with

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Speaker 1: a great laugh than you can with a great line.

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Speaker 1: Mora on math and magic right after this quick break,

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Speaker 1: welcome back to math and Magic. Let's hear more from

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Speaker 1: my conversation with Alan Grugman. I want to go back

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Speaker 1: in time to young Allan. You're a Capricorn, which is

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Speaker 1: a strong business sign. You were born in nineteen forty two.

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Speaker 1: You grew up in Brooklyn in the nineteen forties and fifties,

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Speaker 1: and can you paint us a picture of Brooklyn in

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Speaker 1: those days and how you grew up Well, okay, I

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Speaker 1: grew up in Brooklyn, middle class Jewish family. My mother

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Speaker 1: and father, they were married to the day they died

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Speaker 1: at the age of eleven. My mother decided she was

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Speaker 1: a stage mother. For some reason she heard me sing.

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Speaker 1: She'd say, I would sing myself to sleep. Who the

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Speaker 1: heck knows, but she ends up getting me an audition

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Speaker 1: in the television show on NBC. It was called One

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Speaker 1: or odd a Children's Hour, and it was basically a

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Speaker 1: group of very talented kids who every Sunday for an hour.

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Speaker 1: We were on NBC and living in Brooklyn. The only

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Speaker 1: time you ever were in a limousine was at a funeral.

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Speaker 1: In other words, as part of the package deal at

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Speaker 1: the funeral home, you got the front car, which we

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Speaker 1: know was in there, and then the car right behind

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Speaker 1: it was a limousine for the family. When I was

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Speaker 1: on the Children's Hour, every Saturday morning, we would rehearse

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Speaker 1: at thirty. Rockefeller said that they picked me up in

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Speaker 1: a limousine and they would take me to rehearsal, and

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Speaker 1: then after rehearsal, they would take us out to like

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Speaker 1: great restaurants. Growing up in Brooklyn, the only two restaurants

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Speaker 1: I ever went to was a Delhi and Chinese Food

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Speaker 1: on Sunday. So I was on that show for two

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Speaker 1: years and then my voice changed. That was the end

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Speaker 1: of it, but it made an enormous impression on me

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Speaker 1: the entertainment. I said, this is really good, this is fun.

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Speaker 1: So now I'm still living in Brooklyn. I end up

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Speaker 1: going to high school, I end up going to college,

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Speaker 1: and then when I went to Brooklyn Law School, I said,

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Speaker 1: you know, I remember that everybody in the entertainment business,

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Speaker 1: you know, going to good restaurants, having fun. And that's

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Speaker 1: when I decided that I wanted to become an entertainment lawyer.

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Speaker 1: So growing up in Brooklyn, I grew up in a

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Speaker 1: very middle class neighborhood. I had a very good family life,

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Speaker 1: and that exposure to the entertainment business is what motivated

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Speaker 1: me to after law school, I said, I want to

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Speaker 1: be an entertainment lawyer. And by the way, some of

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Speaker 1: the most successful people in show business live in Brooklyn. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: my dear friend Geffen Lis of Brooklyn, strides in Neil Diamond.

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Speaker 1: It goes on and on and on. So for some reason,

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Speaker 1: Brooklyn was this breeding ground for people who end up

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Speaker 1: in the entertainment industry. Tell me about school. Good student,

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Speaker 1: not a good student, interested student, have a lot of friends.

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Speaker 1: To paint the picture a little bit okay. In school,

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Speaker 1: I was an average athlete and at best an average student.

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Speaker 1: I was not overly popular. I wasn't like an outcast.

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Speaker 1: I was a normal, average kid in high school, and

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Speaker 1: same thing in college. I belonged to a fraternity, but

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Speaker 1: of course not the best fraternity. And I was always

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Speaker 1: a very weak student academically. I don't know what the

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Speaker 1: reason is, you know, maybe I wasn't interested or whatever.

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Speaker 1: And then I go to Brooklyn Law School. And in

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Speaker 1: Brooklyn Law School they encouraged you to take a job

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Speaker 1: after school working for a lawyer in downtown Brooklyn. So

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Speaker 1: I wanted to be an entertainment lawyer. So my first

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Speaker 1: year in law school, I got a job at the

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Speaker 1: William Morris Agency from four to eight at night, like

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Speaker 1: after school. This is interesting. The second and third year

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Speaker 1: I was a page at CBS. I would walk into

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Speaker 1: class every day with a great sports jacket and a

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Speaker 1: CBS I and everybody would say, what's wrong with Grupping?

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Speaker 1: Is he crazy? What is he doing showing people to

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Speaker 1: their seats? What's wrong with them? You know what they

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Speaker 1: found out about ten years later that there was nothing

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Speaker 1: wrong with me. If you get my drift, so I'll

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Speaker 1: put it to you this way. I didn't graduate at

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Speaker 1: the top of my class, and I'm being very facetious.

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Speaker 1: And that's why when I graduated and I found a

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Speaker 1: job working for a lawyer, I couldn't get a job

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Speaker 1: in a big law firm because I didn't have the grades.

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Speaker 1: So I started working for a man by the name

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Speaker 1: of WALTA. Hoefer, who at one time represented the Beatles

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Speaker 1: in the early sixties. But that's the progression of my

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Speaker 1: life up until the time I started my own practice

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Speaker 1: in seventy four. Basically that was it, and I was

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Speaker 1: very lucky. You know, I'm a big believer that luck

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Speaker 1: is seventy five percent of the game and brains is

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Speaker 1: twenty five percent. If you don't get that seventy five

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Speaker 1: percent of luck, the twenty five percent of brains is useless.

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Speaker 1: One time, Elton John said to me, Alan, there are

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Speaker 1: a thousand Elton Johns in this world, but I was

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Speaker 1: the one that got that great opportunity, and that his

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Speaker 1: luck is being in the right place at the right time.

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Speaker 1: And I've been very, very lucky, beyond lucky. So you

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Speaker 1: start your firm in the mid seventies. By the late seventies,

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Speaker 1: the legendary Walter yet Nikof was at its peak of

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Speaker 1: power and not yet at his peak of craziness head

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Speaker 1: of CBS Records, You were one of the few people

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Speaker 1: who he would listen to in respect. What did you

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Speaker 1: learn from Walter? What made him great in spite of

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Speaker 1: his problems. He told me a great expression, it's not

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Speaker 1: about the money. It's about the money. Now what do

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Speaker 1: I mean by that? Walt yet Nikov was a lawyer.

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Speaker 1: He went to Columbia, he practiced law, and then he

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Speaker 1: ended up being CEO of CBS Records. He didn't understand music.

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Speaker 1: It isn't like he was looking for talent like Clive Davis.

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Speaker 1: But you know what, as soon as there was somebody

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Speaker 1: that became very successful, he bring him into the and

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Speaker 1: he'd say, boys, let's renegotiate your contract. And he would

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Speaker 1: renegotiate the contract and give him tons of money, and

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Speaker 1: then they would love him. That's what I realized that

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Speaker 1: a very important part of everybody's career is not only

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Speaker 1: the creative, it's also the monetary. The music business is

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Speaker 1: made up of music and business. That's when I realized

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Speaker 1: how critically important the business side of the music businesses,

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Speaker 1: and the people who know how to handle that side

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Speaker 1: of the business are the ones that do very very well.

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Speaker 1: That's what I learned from him. I learned that you

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Speaker 1: take care of people because if they as I said before,

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Speaker 1: if you take care of them, they're going to take

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Speaker 1: care of you. And all these artists loved him, whether

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Speaker 1: it was Michael Jackson, whether it was Spreaks before he

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Speaker 1: went crazy, Billy Joel, they all loved him. You know why.

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Speaker 1: He made sure that they made a lot of money.

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Speaker 1: So at a certain point you realized you had skills

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Speaker 1: and relationships beyond music, and you could provide services beyond

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Speaker 1: negotiating just entertainment deals. When did you have that epiphany?

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Speaker 1: What started it for you? In two thousand? In late nineties,

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Speaker 1: I saw that the music business was going through a

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Speaker 1: very strange period. There was all kinds of the stealing

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Speaker 1: of music, and I said, I better expand my horizons.

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Speaker 1: And I started hiring a couple of lawyers who knew

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Speaker 1: movies and television, etc. Etc. And I did that as

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Speaker 1: a defense mechanism because I thought maybe the music practice

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Speaker 1: would be dramatically hurt if all of a sudden the

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Speaker 1: way it used to function will no longer function. And

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Speaker 1: then I started bringing him some guys. I hired some

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Speaker 1: people that knew these other areas, and today I would

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Speaker 1: say music is probably the most fifty percent of the practice.

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Speaker 1: So it's one of the few times I had great

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Speaker 1: foresight that was a big transition for you. No one,

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Speaker 1: by the way, had ever done that in the music

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Speaker 1: business on that side of it. What's the business lesson

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Speaker 1: here in that transformation of your firm. The business lesson is,

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Speaker 1: it's just like if you're a lawyer and you have

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Speaker 1: one client and you're dependent upon that client, that puts

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Speaker 1: you in a very weak position. You will always be

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Speaker 1: much stronger if you have ten clients then if you

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Speaker 1: have one or two. The same thing here. I was

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Speaker 1: nervous that the music business was going to go through

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Speaker 1: a terrible period, and I said, oh my god, if

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Speaker 1: that happens, I don't have anything to fall back on.

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Speaker 1: So by developing clients in all different areas, whether it's movies, television, sports, journalism, theater,

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Speaker 1: if one area is soft, it gets picked up by

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Speaker 1: the other areas. So I came to realize how important

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Speaker 1: it was to diverse fy legally, and I was right

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00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 1: because the fact that I wasn't just a music law

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Speaker 1: firm anymore. But we did other things just gave us

429
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:15,800
Speaker 1: more prestige, more credibility, and eventually became much more lucrative.

430
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,119
Speaker 1: And today, you know, we represent all kind of We

431
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:23,840
Speaker 1: represent CEOs, we represent media companies, represent record companies, represent

432
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 1: Iought Radio Live. It goes on and on, and that

433
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 1: is because we diversify. You were one of the early

434
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:35,960
Speaker 1: founders right in the beginning when I'm in Rnigan and

435
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:39,160
Speaker 1: Jan Winner put together the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

436
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 1: This year, you were the first music attorney to ever

437
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:44,720
Speaker 1: be inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame

438
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:48,240
Speaker 1: for your contributions to the business and obviously to the artist.

439
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:51,919
Speaker 1: That's heavy stuff for a guy who was singing on

440
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:56,399
Speaker 1: a children's show on NBC from Brooklyn. Give us just

441
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 1: a couple of minutes of how that felt. You know,

442
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 1: it's interesting. One of my dearest friends is a guy

443
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 1: by the name of David Geffen that some of your

444
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 1: audience might know, some might not. He's an enormously successful guy,

445
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:13,159
Speaker 1: grew up in Brooklyn, not far from where I grew up,

446
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:17,920
Speaker 1: And we've had the following conversation. Could we have ever

447
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 1: imagined when we were growing up that we would be

448
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 1: in the position we're in now it was incomprehensible because

449
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:30,639
Speaker 1: when we were growing up, if you were rich, you

450
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 1: lived in Great Neck or you lived in Scarsdale. It

451
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 1: was a whole different level of success and wealth. So

452
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:44,000
Speaker 1: what I think about my life now, I couldn't have perceived.

453
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:47,080
Speaker 1: I mean, I've but just been so lucky. I couldn't

454
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 1: perceive that I would ever be able to live the

455
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 1: life I lived now. And it's as simple as that.

456
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:55,520
Speaker 1: Let's get some advice from you. If someone's starting in

457
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 1: the music business today, what would you tell him in

458
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 1: what area. Let's say they're going to start on the

459
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 1: business side of the music business today, you know what

460
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 1: I would say to them. If let's say we're talking

461
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 1: about lawyers hypothetically, I would say, if you can work

462
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 1: for a large firm, you should do that for a

463
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 1: few years because they will train you to be a

464
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 1: great lawyer, and then you'll come to me. In terms

465
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 1: of business, I am a big believer in entrepreneurship. To

466
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 1: become a successful entrepreneur as extraordinarily unusual. But if you succeed,

467
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 1: the world is open to you. There are two kinds

468
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 1: of people. There are people who were destined to be

469
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 1: employees and executives, and then there were people that were

470
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 1: destined to be entrepreneurs. You basically have always had the

471
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:47,680
Speaker 1: mentality of an entrepreneur, even though you ran companies, but

472
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:51,200
Speaker 1: you always thought like an entrepreneur. So let's go to

473
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 1: some more advice. How about someone who's renegotiating their employment contract. Well,

474
00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 1: first of all, it depends on what they lever and

475
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 1: if they have leverage, I would tell them to be

476
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 1: very aggressive, because you know, it's the old story. I

477
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:12,520
Speaker 1: always say to people, if I ask for the absurd,

478
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:16,960
Speaker 1: I end up getting the semi absurd, whereas if you

479
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:19,960
Speaker 1: ask for the reasonable, you end up with less than reasonable.

480
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 1: So if somebody is renegotiating their contract and they're doing

481
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 1: a great job, don't be afraid to ask, because my

482
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:34,480
Speaker 1: grandmother used to say, if you don't ask, you don't get. So,

483
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 1: if you could go back in time and give some

484
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:40,480
Speaker 1: advice to your twenty one year old self, what would

485
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 1: that advice be. I would have said, follow your love

486
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 1: and your passion, which is what I did, and be

487
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 1: as pleasantly aggressive as you can be. You shouldn't be

488
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 1: obnoxiously aggressive, but when people see that you are ambitious

489
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,720
Speaker 1: and you're aggressive, in the right way, you will get

490
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:08,560
Speaker 1: much farther than if you play it safe. So we

491
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:12,400
Speaker 1: normally end every episode of Math and Magic with a

492
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:15,480
Speaker 1: shout out to the greats of math and magic and business.

493
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:18,640
Speaker 1: But given who you are and in your eighty years,

494
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 1: the people you've encountered, can you give us the three

495
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 1: or four people you've encountered who you stick in your

496
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:32,320
Speaker 1: mind as the legends the greats? Well, I would probably

497
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 1: have to say Steve Ross was this brilliant, brilliant man

498
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:40,480
Speaker 1: who created Warner Brothers. I would say him. I had

499
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 1: the opportunity to meet Bill Paley, who was a phenomenal

500
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:48,320
Speaker 1: and creative businessman. And let's tell people who Bill Paley

501
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 1: was started CBS. And although people don't know who's Bill

502
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:55,600
Speaker 1: Paley is today, which shocks me. Bill Paley in the

503
00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 1: sixties seventies could not have been more powerful, you know

504
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,720
Speaker 1: he found at CBS. In the record business, he was

505
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 1: very controversial. But Ahmed Ertigan was a true legend. David

506
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 1: Geffin obviously was a great inspiration to me, and I'll

507
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 1: tell you that story. I met David Geffin in nineteen

508
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 1: eighty one when I was making a deal with him

509
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 1: with Hall and Oates, and we hit it off immediately

510
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:25,240
Speaker 1: and we became very very good friends over the years,

511
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 1: and he has been a tremendous booster of mine. But

512
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 1: you know, David Geffin is an example of a true entrepreneur.

513
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 1: And he never built CBS or he never built the

514
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 1: General Motors, but as an entrepreneur he was always phenomenally successful,

515
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 1: first as a manager, then as a record executive, and

516
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 1: then an owner of dream Work. He was always very,

517
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 1: very successful, and he was always been very important in

518
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:59,400
Speaker 1: my life. Alan, you are a unique human being and

519
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 1: so much touch so many people, me included. Thanks for

520
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 1: being with us today and thanks for all you've done

521
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 1: my pleasure, Bob, and thank you for inviting me. Here

522
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 1: are a few things I picked up in my conversation

523
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 1: with Alan. One, embrace the future. When the music industry

524
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:22,480
Speaker 1: jumped from records to CDs to streaming, Alan was always

525
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 1: on the side of the future. Work with progress, not

526
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:30,200
Speaker 1: against it. New developments will keep your business thriving. Two.

527
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 1: Don't wound your enemies and negotiations. Don't ring your opponent

528
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:38,719
Speaker 1: drial that will just leave them feeling vengeful. A successful

529
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 1: deal is one that's fair on both ends and leaves

530
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 1: each side feeling pretty good about what they got. Three

531
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 1: Build relationships. Alan's the first to admit that he didn't

532
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 1: get to where he is by being top of his class.

533
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 1: It's his personality and ability to form relationships that built

534
00:33:56,480 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 1: a strong reputation. Forming and maintaining friendship, so colleagues can

535
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 1: only help you in the long run. It's easier to

536
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:05,960
Speaker 1: make a good deal when you know the person sitting

537
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:20,080
Speaker 1: across the table. I'm Bob Pittman. Thanks for listening. That's

538
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:22,719
Speaker 1: it for today's episode. Thanks so much for listening to

539
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:25,840
Speaker 1: Math and Magic, a production of iHeartRadio. The show is

540
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:29,400
Speaker 1: hosted by Bob Pittman. Special thanks to Sidney Rosenbloom for

541
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 1: booking and wrangling our wonderful talent, which is no small feat.

542
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:37,800
Speaker 1: Our editor Emily Maronoff, our engineer Jessica Kranchich, Our executive

543
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:41,920
Speaker 1: producers Nikki Etre and Ali Perry, and of course Gail Raoul,

544
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 1: Eric Angel Noel and everyone who helped bring this show

545
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:47,839
Speaker 1: to your ears. Until next time,