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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, it's Josh and Chuck your friends, and we

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Speaker 1: are here to tell you about our upcoming book that's

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Speaker 1: coming out this fall, the first ever Stuff you Should

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Speaker 1: Know book, Chuck. That's right. What's the cool, super cool

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Speaker 1: title we came up with. It's Stuff you Should Know colon,

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Speaker 1: an incomplete compendium of mostly interesting things. That's right, and

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Speaker 1: it's coming along so great. We're super excited, you guys.

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Speaker 1: The illustrations are amazing, and there's the look of the book.

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Speaker 1: It's all just it's exactly what we hoped it would be.

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Speaker 1: And we cannot wait for you to get your hands

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Speaker 1: on it. Yes, we can't. Um, and you don't have

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Speaker 1: to wait. Actually, well you do have to wait, but

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Speaker 1: you don't have to wait to order. You can go

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Speaker 1: pre order the book right now everywhere you get books,

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Speaker 1: and you will eventually get a special gift for pre ordering,

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Speaker 1: which we're working on right now. That's right, So check

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Speaker 1: it out soon coming this fall. Welcome to Stuff you

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Speaker 1: Should Know, a production of My Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey,

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Speaker 1: and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, There's Charles

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Speaker 1: w Chuck Bryan over there. Jerry's here floating around the

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Speaker 1: office somewhere, but she's here. Everybody's back. Yes, Jerry is

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Speaker 1: here in the flesh. She does exist, she's real. She

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Speaker 1: also has clothed, not just flesh. That's right. And because

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Speaker 1: the three of us are hanging out even on the

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Speaker 1: internet's it's it's stuff you should know. Yeah, it's good

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Speaker 1: to see her. Her hair is long. She's like a

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Speaker 1: hippie now, I mean long for Jerry is not very long,

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Speaker 1: but it's swoopier than usual and looks quite nice. That's great, man, show.

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Speaker 1: She cares. She's staying home. Stay home, save lives, Jerry. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's right. Uh, you know what else may have saved lives? Chuck,

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Speaker 1: Project Stargate, Project Stargate. Do you know when why I

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Speaker 1: hedged and said that it may have saved lives? Why? Well,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you tell your version, but I mean, because

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Speaker 1: we don't even know if this stuff is real or not. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I it's gonna say that I said it may have

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Speaker 1: saved lives because it totally didn't save any lives as

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Speaker 1: far as you know, it's a bunch of made up

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Speaker 1: gobbledy cook um and a CIA boondoggle and u S

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Speaker 1: military boondoggle from the seventies to the nineties, but some

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Speaker 1: fun anecdotal stories though it is. It is like it's

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Speaker 1: one of the more interesting chapters in CIA history, and

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Speaker 1: CIA history is awfully interesting. It has a lot of

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Speaker 1: interesting horrific chapters. This one's not horrific. I think that's

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Speaker 1: one of the big differences of it is it's just interesting.

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Speaker 1: There's not a lot of horror to it um. I know,

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Speaker 1: the menusteric goats by our pel John Ronson really kind

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Speaker 1: of devolves into horror towards the end of it um

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Speaker 1: when he gets an mk ultra. But this is separate

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Speaker 1: from NK mk Ultra. It came from the same mindset

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Speaker 1: for sure, this idea that there are powers to the mind,

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Speaker 1: I could consumably be unlocked to do ill or good

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Speaker 1: or neutral stuff. Who knows. But this one, it was

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Speaker 1: fairly benign as far as CIA projects go, don't you think, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and believe it or not, I never saw that movie.

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Speaker 1: It was okay, That's why I didn't, I think. I

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Speaker 1: mean it had everything I love in a movie, which

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Speaker 1: is Jeff Bridges and George Clooney and John Malkovich, but

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Speaker 1: have some funny spots in it too, for sure. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't know why that one got past me. I

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Speaker 1: think I've read tepid reviews and I just kind of

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Speaker 1: was like, Yeah, if you watched it, you would not

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Speaker 1: think that you would just you would not want the

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Speaker 1: two hours of your life back. But you wouldn't just

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Speaker 1: be like, I'm going to dedicate my life to making

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Speaker 1: sure everybody sees this movie. It wouldn't be like that.

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Speaker 1: And I haven't read the book. Sorry, John, if you

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Speaker 1: even listen to us anymore, But um, like, I'm quite

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Speaker 1: sure from what I understand, the book is is vastly

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Speaker 1: superior to the movie. Which when does that ever happened? Sure?

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Speaker 1: If John Ronson's hands were involved in his brain, then

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Speaker 1: I'm sure it was better. I love that guy. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he's a good guy. Didn't like to wear shoes for

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Speaker 1: people who might not have seen him. Here's another fun

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Speaker 1: fact that you probably don't know. He was on one

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Speaker 1: of the first editions of movie Crush and he sits.

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Speaker 1: He swears that he sits on the very front row,

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Speaker 1: far left seat. That's torture. It's torture. I don't it

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Speaker 1: was so weird. No, I know I heard that episode.

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Speaker 1: His His movie was Annie Right, No, not true. What

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Speaker 1: was it? Do you remember? It was let the right

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Speaker 1: One in? Oh man, that's a great movie. Yeah, sure is.

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Speaker 1: And if you know, if you ever go to a

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Speaker 1: movie theater New York and you see some guy front

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Speaker 1: shoes with no shoes, then go tap him on the

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Speaker 1: shoulder and ask for his autography. UM. Okay, so we're

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Speaker 1: talking Projects Stargate, which was the general name for this

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Speaker 1: secret project that was declassified around two thousand, I think,

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Speaker 1: which is it's very telling that it was declassified in

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Speaker 1: two thousand because the project was finally canceled in. Normally,

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Speaker 1: when the CIA connects the project, especially if that project

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Speaker 1: yields valuable stuff, they don't declassify it in just five years.

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Speaker 1: It takes decades before that stuff starts to trickle out.

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Speaker 1: But with Project Stargate, um, they said, here you go,

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Speaker 1: here's everything. Yeah, that's great reading. Um. But this this

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Speaker 1: project ran from officially I believe, nineteen seventy five, and

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Speaker 1: I had a different couple of different names, and it

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Speaker 1: got passed along from different um different agencies. But the

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Speaker 1: whole thing started even back before the CIA got involved.

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Speaker 1: And from what I saw, there was a woman Soviet

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Speaker 1: woman named new Nell Coolognia, who was on TV in

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Speaker 1: the Soviet Union and she was demonstrating her telekinesis, and

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Speaker 1: apparently some defense intelligence analysts saw this TV show and said, Hey,

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Speaker 1: I think this the Soviets might have some sort of

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Speaker 1: mind weapon that we might want to look at. And

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Speaker 1: it scared the Bejesus out of the United States, and

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Speaker 1: they got busy trying their own hand, starting with the

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Speaker 1: USS Nautilus, the first submarine to make it to the

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Speaker 1: North Pole. Yeah. I think what's so funny about the

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Speaker 1: early history of this is that, um, the Russians started

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Speaker 1: doing it because they thought we were doing it, and

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Speaker 1: we started doing it because we thought they were doing it.

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Speaker 1: And I don't know if either one of us technically

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Speaker 1: were officially doing it. No, no, so yeah, they're the

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Speaker 1: woman on TV. Did not necessarily mean the Soviets had

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Speaker 1: some sort of program, but it was that whole goofy

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Speaker 1: Cold War thing where it's like, if if there's even

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Speaker 1: the slightest possibility the Russians are up to something, we've

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Speaker 1: got to do that too, and then do it better.

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Speaker 1: And they had the exact same mentality. So there was

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Speaker 1: a constant arms race for everything, including E S p

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Speaker 1: and what we'll we'll find out was called remote viewing. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean that's kind of the deal. I guess we

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Speaker 1: should tell everyone what this means. Um, it's sort of

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Speaker 1: like a uh in an addition of Karnak the Magnificent

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Speaker 1: from the Johnny Carson Show. At least this is how

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Speaker 1: they trained. And we'll get into that specifically, but it was, Hey,

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Speaker 1: you have a gift. Maybe we're gonna test you to see,

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Speaker 1: but sit in this room and tell us if you

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Speaker 1: can locate whatever a missile base in the Soviet Union,

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Speaker 1: or a hostage in the Middle East, or just whatever

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Speaker 1: they needed to know that they didn't know. They're like,

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Speaker 1: just sit here quietly and and think it into reality.

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Speaker 1: And uh. That was sort of the basis of the

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Speaker 1: program was it was a trying to use SI P

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Speaker 1: s I, which we've talked about before. You are political

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Speaker 1: and I guess military advantage. Yeah. Yeah, so, I mean

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Speaker 1: in that respect, it was really again very benign. They

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Speaker 1: weren't trying to explode somebody's head, although there were reports

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Speaker 1: of of programs like that, but with Project Stargate specifically,

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Speaker 1: it was just people trying to come up with descriptions

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Speaker 1: of secret places or like you said, the location of

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Speaker 1: certain people. Just kind of astra Lei projecting is another

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Speaker 1: way to put it. Clairvoyance is another way to put it,

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Speaker 1: but just kind of not just reading somebody else's mind,

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Speaker 1: but actually traveling somewhere else in the world and connecting

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Speaker 1: into a person or a thing or a place and

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Speaker 1: getting that information remotely through means other than the normal senses.

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Speaker 1: And that's why another reason um or that's why reason.

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Speaker 1: Another name for remote viewing, which is what it came

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Speaker 1: to be called, is anomalous cognition, which is you've got

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Speaker 1: this information. You're getting this this info that you normally

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Speaker 1: get from like your ears or your eyes or your

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Speaker 1: tongue or something like that, but you're getting it just

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Speaker 1: into your mind. You're sure, Hey, go lick that thing,

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Speaker 1: tell me what you think. See if you can figure

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Speaker 1: out the secret code word, get into that base by

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Speaker 1: licking the keypad. But the I mean, you know, you're not.

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Speaker 1: You're getting it from um not just your sensory perception.

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Speaker 1: It's an extra sensory perception, right, is that what that means?

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Speaker 1: That's what that means. Right. So that's the whole jam

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Speaker 1: with this, is that the CIA and then the Soviets

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Speaker 1: had their own thing going on too. We're saying like,

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Speaker 1: let's do this. Let's use this potential capability to um

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Speaker 1: to see if it works, and if it does work,

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Speaker 1: let's use it to gather intelligence without having to go anywhere,

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Speaker 1: without having to spend virtually any money on this. Just

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Speaker 1: like you said, put him in a room maybe with

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Speaker 1: some saltines and some grape coolation. Let him relax and

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Speaker 1: and figure it out. Yeah. So in seventy two is

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Speaker 1: when the d i A, the Defense Intelligence Agency, first

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Speaker 1: got wind of the Soviets potentially doing this for real,

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Speaker 1: and the CIA said, all right, you know what, We're

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Speaker 1: gonna start funding these private research firms to see if

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Speaker 1: this is possible. And seventy three, uh, this started happening

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Speaker 1: at the s r I International in California, which stood

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Speaker 1: originally for Stanford Research Institute, but they weren't a part

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Speaker 1: of Stanford at the time. And there was a guy

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Speaker 1: there named Dr Russell targ who was one of the researchers,

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Speaker 1: and he wrote a book called Mind Race, which is

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Speaker 1: a great title for something like this, and he had

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Speaker 1: some like early examples of sessions that he thought sounded

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Speaker 1: promising at least, right, I was gonna say, I'm not

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Speaker 1: sure how he got into it though, but he I

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Speaker 1: don't know if he was already into it and then

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Speaker 1: the d I A Got into it or started funding

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Speaker 1: him or something like that. But from yeah, from what

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Speaker 1: I can tell you's the earliest one. I bet he

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Speaker 1: was into it. But not for you know, espionage type

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Speaker 1: purposes or anything like that. No, No, I think it

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Speaker 1: was just kind of like this early, you know, beginning

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Speaker 1: of the New Age movement. This guy was like on

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Speaker 1: the leading edge of that whole thing. So in nineteen

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Speaker 1: seventy six there was this experiment that he championed, is like, hey,

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Speaker 1: look this good work. Everyone. There was a remote viewer

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Speaker 1: someone in the offices in California, their s R. I

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Speaker 1: and Dr targ was in New York City and no

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Speaker 1: one knew anything about where he was supposedly, I think

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Speaker 1: we're gonna say supposedly a lot in this podcast. And

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Speaker 1: they said, all right, where am I? And he said, well, um,

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Speaker 1: let me see in my brain. I'm seeing something. Um,

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Speaker 1: I'm seeing a subment depression. It's almost like a dry fountain. Yes,

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Speaker 1: there's a submit post in the middle and there are

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Speaker 1: pigeons flying around? Oh my god, Doctor targ said, Hell,

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Speaker 1: I'm in Washington Square Park and the fountain is empty. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And and Chuck, there's pigeons pooping everywhere because it's in

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Speaker 1: New York. Yes. And so like with this this apparently

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Speaker 1: successful remote viewing session, Dr targ Um was able to

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Speaker 1: get funding from the d i A at first, and

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Speaker 1: that's where really kind of kicked off this whole study

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Speaker 1: that one I think came through in seventies six, but

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Speaker 1: it's certainly kept his funding going. But he had, um,

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Speaker 1: he had anecdotal data from remote viewing sessions previous to

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Speaker 1: this that really kind of kick things off. And so

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Speaker 1: the CIA is like, well, I mean, if this guy

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Speaker 1: can sit there and and figure out that this guy

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Speaker 1: is in Washington Square Park just with his mind's i

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Speaker 1: you know, without right, no licking at all, certainly no

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Speaker 1: pigeons are being let here. Um that like, like, we

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Speaker 1: could probably put that to good use, having him think

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Speaker 1: about Soviet stuff and we can steal their secrets that way,

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Speaker 1: That's right. And in nineteen seventy six we had a

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Speaker 1: president elect and Jimmy Carter, who you know, asked a

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Speaker 1: couple of questions around the the office, and he got

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Speaker 1: in touch with Uri Geller, the famous Yuri Geller. He's

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Speaker 1: a great mentalist. If you haven't, we've talked about him

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Speaker 1: plenty of times. I feel like, yeah, but I really

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Speaker 1: want to do just enough to show on him. He's

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Speaker 1: pretty great. Did you know that he ended up getting

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Speaker 1: very rich by dowsing for oil companies? Really, can you

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Speaker 1: believe that? I can. I can't do because I think

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Speaker 1: oil companies will pay anybody anything if they think it

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Speaker 1: will lead to oil. You give me some oil, So

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Speaker 1: Carter said, Um. He had a private meeting with him

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Speaker 1: and he kind of asked about what was going on,

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Speaker 1: and Geller said, you know, these Russians they school are

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Speaker 1: They screen school kids and see if anyone has particular talents,

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Speaker 1: like paranormal power talents, and they send them to special

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Speaker 1: places to be trained. And Carter said, well, maybe we

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Speaker 1: should look into this. It's nineteen seventy seven now, and

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Speaker 1: they didn't find any evidence of that kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: But by this point the chicken was out of the coope,

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Speaker 1: I think, and they were going to spend a little

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Speaker 1: bit of money to kind of pursue this. Yes, I

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Speaker 1: think the only evidence that that little line that you're

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Speaker 1: a Geller gave to Jimmy Carter was that Eurie Geller

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Speaker 1: had seen escape to Witch Mountain the year before. I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's the problem with all of this is like BS

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Speaker 1: begets more BS. So Eurie Geller had a meeting with Carter,

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Speaker 1: started talking out of his a and the next thing,

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Speaker 1: you know, the United States is funding and study to

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Speaker 1: find out whether it's true. It's like, come on, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I like I have to. I'm gonna just fess up here.

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Speaker 1: I was very bugged the entire time I was researching

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Speaker 1: this particular one. It was like crop circles all over again. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but more fun than crop circles. I think it was

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Speaker 1: more fun. But you know what kind of stuck the

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Speaker 1: fun out of it for me? All this ahead and

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Speaker 1: say it now. I was going to save it for

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Speaker 1: the end, but I read something somewhere that really kind

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Speaker 1: of drove at home that the problem with like this

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Speaker 1: kind of stuff is that if you if you let

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Speaker 1: it really kind of get a foothold or get started,

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Speaker 1: it paves the way for the kind of thinking that

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Speaker 1: just doubts science and that that doubts expertise. And then

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Speaker 1: it's like, no, no, don't you know, like people can

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Speaker 1: bend spoons, you don't need to like, you know, you

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Speaker 1: don't you don't have to believe in science. This stuff happens.

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Speaker 1: This is really right, exactly, And then all of a

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Speaker 1: sudden you have people believing anything that they hear. That's

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Speaker 1: the problem with it, and it really bugged me, especially

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Speaker 1: on today of all days. You know. Yeah, of course,

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Speaker 1: so um around and we don't know all this stuff

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Speaker 1: for sure, because a lot of the stuff is still

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Speaker 1: I don't know if it's still top secret. But um,

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Speaker 1: the timelines aren't like you know, we don't know specific dates.

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Speaker 1: But around seventy the c i A stopped funding this

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Speaker 1: and the Army said, hey, we'll take over, no problem,

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Speaker 1: a bunch of money we don't know what to do with. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and how about a cool army code name. We'll call

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Speaker 1: it Project grill Flame one word. I don't know why

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Speaker 1: that's weird. Well, I think that's the point of a

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Speaker 1: project name. It's meant to kind of baffle you. I

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Speaker 1: think some of them are kind of cool and relatable

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Speaker 1: to the thing now. But to me, it's like, well,

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Speaker 1: you don't want any outsider, what the project is about

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Speaker 1: you know, that's true plowshare plow Okay, you're right, that

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Speaker 1: was a really good one. You're right. So Project Grill

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Speaker 1: Flame from the Army was based in Maryland at Fort Meade,

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Speaker 1: and they had remote viewers or people who claimed to

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Speaker 1: be remote viewers or show talent as remote viewers in

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Speaker 1: barracks and they would do the car neck routine. They

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Speaker 1: would hand them an envelope and said what's inside, And

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Speaker 1: that was kind of the extent of their testing at first. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: um they would um, well they were allowed to open

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Speaker 1: the envelope. I'm sure they would just once I was

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Speaker 1: a joke put into their forehead. Um, but um, they

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Speaker 1: would give them. They would give them a car like

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Speaker 1: an envelope with maybe somebody's picture, maybe a note card

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Speaker 1: that has latitude and longitude typed on it, maybe somebody's

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Speaker 1: name that was it, and they were told to think

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Speaker 1: about that latitude and longitude or told to concentrate on

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Speaker 1: that person's picture or think about their name, and they

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Speaker 1: wanted all the information that came. And so when it

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Speaker 1: was latitude and longitude, typically you would know like you

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Speaker 1: were supposed to be um viewing remotely a like a

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Speaker 1: site or some sort of secret base or some sort

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Speaker 1: of weapon or satellite dish or radartist or something like that.

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Speaker 1: UM and if it was a person you know, who knows,

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Speaker 1: maybe they were a lost person. And some of these people,

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Speaker 1: some of these remote viewing UM subjects, would would say

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Speaker 1: like I need a little more info or something like that,

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Speaker 1: and then it would kind of get them going, and

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Speaker 1: then they would write down what their impressions were. They

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Speaker 1: would maybe dictated, they would draw it, maybe they would

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Speaker 1: do all three and then after twenty minutes, thirty minutes,

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Speaker 1: however long they dedicated to it, they would stop and

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Speaker 1: all of their info would be taken away and then analyzed,

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Speaker 1: analyzed by a defense intelligence analyst CIA analyst an NSA

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Speaker 1: analyst who knows somebody whose job was going through intelligence

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Speaker 1: that was given to them by spies and satellites and

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Speaker 1: all that would every once in a a while get a

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Speaker 1: package slip to them between that had somebody had literally

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Speaker 1: pulled out of thin air and put down in words

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Speaker 1: and here you go. See if this this holds up

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Speaker 1: or helps you in any way in figuring out what's

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Speaker 1: in that mountain in the urals. Yeah, So there was

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Speaker 1: a guy named Joseph mcmonagle, and he was he worked

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Speaker 1: as a he was a recruit for for grill Flame,

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Speaker 1: and he worked into the nineties. And he has some

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Speaker 1: pretty good stories. And there's a lot of good stories

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Speaker 1: in here. And is this stuff true? Is the thing?

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Speaker 1: Like it was frustrating you think this stuff is all

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Speaker 1: made up? I here's the thing. For every one of

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Speaker 1: his stories, I went and tried to cross for infant

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Speaker 1: with with declassified CIA documents. I couldn't find anything. Like

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Speaker 1: all of the guys stories are anecdotal. Here's the problem.

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Speaker 1: They get reported not necessarily as fact, but they get

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Speaker 1: reported in like, you know, an actual profile of the

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Speaker 1: guy in the Washington Post Newsweight or something on this podcast,

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Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden, right, and then all

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Speaker 1: of a sudden, when somebody cross references some weird thing

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Speaker 1: they read in some fringe e book, it pops up

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Speaker 1: in a Washington Post article too. That's true, that's true.

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Speaker 1: It's just bad reporting. That is that is continuing this

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Speaker 1: to go on. But as far as I know, I

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Speaker 1: could not find any corroboration from any declassified documents for

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Speaker 1: any of his stories. So one of his examples in

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventy nine. He said that he was he could

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Speaker 1: see where sky Lab, the very famous satellite in the

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventies and eighties, was going to crash eleven months before.

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Speaker 1: So this is also precognition, which is another part of PSI.

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Speaker 1: And in one UH and supposedly that was correct. In in

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Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty one, he also got another tip, a

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Speaker 1: mental hot tip that there was a hostage Brigadier General

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Speaker 1: James Dozier that was being held in UH. I don't

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Speaker 1: know if it's Padua or Padua, Italy Padua Padua either one.

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Speaker 1: I think it is Padua. And supposedly the tip arrived

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Speaker 1: in Italy and the day that he was released in

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Speaker 1: that very town. UH. What else? What about the the

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Speaker 1: KGB agent, This one's pretty great. So there's a KGB

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Speaker 1: agent in South Africa that the CIA had been watching

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Speaker 1: in the in I guess thineteen eighty and they couldn't

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Speaker 1: figure out how he was contacting his KGB handlers back

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Speaker 1: in in Mother Russia. And um, I guess McGonagall or mcmonagle.

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Speaker 1: Um it was focused on a calculator. He saw that

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Speaker 1: this guy really was obsessed with his calculator. And it

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Speaker 1: turns out when the CIA looked at his calculatory, figured

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Speaker 1: out it was a short wave radio. And also just

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Speaker 1: check the guy's calculator. Sure, like checking all the electronics

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Speaker 1: that he has. He has a cigarette lighter and a calculator.

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Speaker 1: We looked at the cigarette lighter, found nothing. We just

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Speaker 1: gave up after that. Yeah, we looked at the calculator

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Speaker 1: and held it upside down and just said, bubblis who.

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Speaker 1: It was one of those remember the professor ones thinking

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Speaker 1: the mortar cap and all that. You know, There was

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Speaker 1: one that had a drawing of like an old wise

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Speaker 1: man with a graduation cap on. It was a pretty famous,

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Speaker 1: like seventies calculator for kids. Oh, you mean the calculator itself. Yeah, no,

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Speaker 1: I think you know what you're talking about. I thought

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Speaker 1: you meant some weird trick where you type in numbers

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Speaker 1: and turn it upside down and it says, oh and

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Speaker 1: it looks like a guy. Oh I see. I was like,

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Speaker 1: that's pretty impressive, right, You're like, I can just type boobs.

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Speaker 1: So in eight five, the d i a uh took

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Speaker 1: control of this program. I guess took it back from

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Speaker 1: the army. It seems like nobody wanted it, like every

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Speaker 1: few years they would just be like, who wants to

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Speaker 1: take this over now? But the thing is, it kept

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Speaker 1: getting funding and from what I read, either target Edwin

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Speaker 1: May who comes in later um as the director of

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Speaker 1: this program. Like they said it was a year to

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Speaker 1: year funding, but it kept getting funding every year for

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Speaker 1: twenty years. I would think I would think too that

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Speaker 1: like once it went from one agency to another, maybe

395
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Speaker 1: it would survive once. But it survived all these transitions. Yeah,

396
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:54,560
Speaker 1: so they take it back in five and started funding

397
00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:58,000
Speaker 1: s r I again international. They're back on the scene.

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Speaker 1: And then another contract after a private contractor came on

399
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Speaker 1: called Science Applications International Corporation, also in California. And this

400
00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:11,159
Speaker 1: is where they name it Stargate in nine. And it

401
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Speaker 1: had to be after the movie, right, I don't think so, man.

402
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Speaker 1: I think the movie came out a few years after that. Really,

403
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Speaker 1: I'm gonna look, that's easy enough to check. The whole

404
00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:23,439
Speaker 1: time I was wondering about that. And that was the

405
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Speaker 1: name from nine till it's end in nineteen and uh, oh,

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, not end in is when the CIA took

407
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:41,000
Speaker 1: it back over, right, um. And then the CIA finally said,

408
00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:45,000
Speaker 1: you know why we're just we're not sure about this anymore. Um,

409
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:47,720
Speaker 1: we're just gonna we're just gonna defund this thing and

410
00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:53,880
Speaker 1: let it go away. Um again. This was and five

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Speaker 1: years later they declassified as far as we know, everything

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Speaker 1: that had anything to do with it. I think some

413
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Speaker 1: of the people like mcmonagle who were involved are saying,

414
00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:06,080
Speaker 1: now there's still plenty of classified stuff you guys don't

415
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:08,600
Speaker 1: know about that really proves everything, right, They're just not

416
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:11,320
Speaker 1: showing you the good stuff. Yeah, but I read this, Um,

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Speaker 1: I read a I guess the transcript of a Skeptoid

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Speaker 1: our buddy Brian Dunning's UM podcasts who we went. Um

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Speaker 1: we had a flame war with over whether or not

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Speaker 1: it could rain frogs? Um, yeah we did. He well,

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Speaker 1: he tried to start one. I just ignored him. But um,

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Speaker 1: this is when we had the can it rain Frog's episode?

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00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:36,840
Speaker 1: But that was years ago, wasn't it. I have a long,

424
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:41,200
Speaker 1: long memory. I can hold a grudge. But anyway, in Skeptoid,

425
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:44,199
Speaker 1: he was basically saying, like the very fact that like

426
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:47,600
Speaker 1: all these people are allowed who were verifiably in this

427
00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:50,800
Speaker 1: program run by the CIA for twenty years, The fact

428
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:52,760
Speaker 1: that they're allowed to walk around and talk about this

429
00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:56,640
Speaker 1: and haven't been like, haven't disappeared. It just lends further

430
00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:58,800
Speaker 1: credence to the idea that there was nothing that came

431
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 1: of this because they it all just be vanished. Kind of.

432
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:05,680
Speaker 1: I think the CIA is not above that kind of thing. Well,

433
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:08,680
Speaker 1: at any rate, the CIA said, uh, it's not worth

434
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:12,119
Speaker 1: this money that we're spending, so let's just get a

435
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:15,080
Speaker 1: very you know, the typical thing. Let's get a third

436
00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:19,240
Speaker 1: party report that will solve it all. In the American

437
00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 1: Institutes for Research published an evaluation of remote viewing colon

438
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:28,680
Speaker 1: Research and Applications and said, you know what, this is

439
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:32,720
Speaker 1: pretty compelling stuff, but we can't use it for intelligence

440
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:39,680
Speaker 1: because you note the word intelligence zing and they shut

441
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:43,320
Speaker 1: it down, shut it down in they did twenty years,

442
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:48,120
Speaker 1: twenty million dollars looking for everything from new Soviet submarine

443
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:51,719
Speaker 1: designs to lost GUD missiles to people being held by

444
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:56,560
Speaker 1: foreign kidnappers. Um, all of it just down the down

445
00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 1: the toilet. That's right. And in the old days this

446
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 1: would be the end of the episode. But in today's stuff,

447
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:30,680
Speaker 1: you should know it's our first message break that might

448
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 1: be a record chuck a thirty minute first act. Oh yeah, yeah,

449
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:39,960
Speaker 1: that's right, I was slicking. We started a little late

450
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,680
Speaker 1: after we started recording. That's that's I don't think that's

451
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:45,720
Speaker 1: the record alright. So should we keep talking about Project

452
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:49,800
Speaker 1: Stargate just because it's fun? Yeah, let's so. Um yeah.

453
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 1: And I don't mean like I'm not trying to pooh

454
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,639
Speaker 1: pooh like people's imagination. I've got the same thing. I

455
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 1: love the same stuff. It's just mine eyes have been

456
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,240
Speaker 1: opened and they can never be closed again. Need to

457
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:06,680
Speaker 1: say mine eyes? Yes and again? Oh goodness, So with

458
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:11,479
Speaker 1: with Stargate right. Um. The whole basis of this was

459
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 1: that it was allowed to continue on for twenty years

460
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 1: because the people involved were very much impressed with what

461
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:23,440
Speaker 1: they saw, and um, what they saw kind of went

462
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 1: a little bit like this, Like the earliest test I think,

463
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:31,920
Speaker 1: the ones that Russell targ was doing. We're basically like, um, uh,

464
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:36,199
Speaker 1: tell me about some Soviet submarine floating around somewhere in

465
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 1: the world. Let's see what you can do, just really free, loosey,

466
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 1: goosey hippie stuff. Right. And then a guy named um

467
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:49,440
Speaker 1: Dr Edwin May came along and he took over and

468
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 1: I think but he'd been working on the project starting

469
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 1: at the Stanford Research Institute, um beginning and back in

470
00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 1: nine and Um. So he was on this project, I

471
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:04,359
Speaker 1: believe for the full twenty years, in one capacity or another.

472
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,120
Speaker 1: And when he took over, they weren't even paying him

473
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:10,119
Speaker 1: for the last ten No, he was just hanging around

474
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:14,200
Speaker 1: living off a Celtines in Great Cool with his red stapler.

475
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:19,200
Speaker 1: But he yeah, kinda, but he Um. He instituted way

476
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:25,120
Speaker 1: stricter protocols for conducting these remote viewing experiments and tests too.

477
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:28,919
Speaker 1: Not just you know, remote viewing experiments were connected. He

478
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:31,359
Speaker 1: wanted to kind of show that these things could work too,

479
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 1: so he came up with something called ranked order judging,

480
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:37,160
Speaker 1: which was part of a larger type of test called

481
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:41,240
Speaker 1: forced choice. Yeah. And I'm gonna get you to explain

482
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:45,600
Speaker 1: that in a second, because I didn't fully get the redo.

483
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 1: But May is a pretty interesting guy. He was a doctor,

484
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 1: He was a PhD in nuclear physics. Um. And while

485
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:55,880
Speaker 1: it's easy to sort of cast someone like this as

486
00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 1: just sort of a loopy hippie type, he really intelligent guy. Um,

487
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 1: but he was also a loopy hippie type. He got

488
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 1: his post stock in San Francisco in the nineteen sixties,

489
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 1: So you know what that means. Uh, And he literally

490
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 1: used the words. He became a professional hippie, did a

491
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:14,800
Speaker 1: lot of drugs, did a lot of psychedelics, and got

492
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 1: into parapsychology and did what you do if that is

493
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:21,240
Speaker 1: your path. You go to India at some point just

494
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 1: hoping to sort of soak up some cool esoteric knowledge,

495
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 1: bump into rupert. Yeah, perhaps. And he came back and

496
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:30,960
Speaker 1: didn't really get a lot out of in m Sure

497
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 1: he had a great time and everything, but it didn't

498
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 1: come back there. Yeah, I didn't come back with anything

499
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:40,040
Speaker 1: he could use. Came back in seventy five and then

500
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 1: that's where he got a job as a research assistant

501
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:46,880
Speaker 1: at s r I International, working with telekinesis, and he

502
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 1: was like, this is it for me, baby, this is

503
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 1: this is the job. You pay me for this. And

504
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 1: he just kind of took off from there and and

505
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 1: I guess took over as director in right. Yeah, so

506
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 1: he was the one that's are did this different sort

507
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 1: of testing method called forced uh not first choice, but

508
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 1: forced choice. Right. It just wasn't quite it wasn't anywhere

509
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 1: near is like free and easy as the free response ones.

510
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,080
Speaker 1: It was basically it kind of went like this. Okay,

511
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 1: so let's say let's say that, um, you're holding one

512
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:22,960
Speaker 1: of these tests. Ideally you have three people involved. You

513
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 1: have the remote viewer, you have the sender who's actually

514
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:30,320
Speaker 1: thinking of the thing that the remote viewer is supposed

515
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 1: to be tapping into and gaining information from, and then

516
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 1: you have a judge. Okay, yeah, And also ideally the

517
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 1: sender and the remote viewer should not be in contact

518
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 1: with one another before or during the experiment. It's another

519
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 1: kind of important one too. And these are things that

520
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 1: like Edwin May was instituting that really kind of scientific fied. Um,

521
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 1: the whole thing definitely gave it a more legitimate glean

522
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 1: for sure. But um, so what happens is the the

523
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:08,080
Speaker 1: sender chooses a photo from a hundred photos in a

524
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 1: national geographic photo set. That's usually what they use. And

525
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 1: I also ideally we could point out that, um, they

526
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 1: would use way more than a hundred photos and not

527
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,720
Speaker 1: those same photos over and over. That's a big one too,

528
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:21,960
Speaker 1: as we'll see for sure, that's a big problem if

529
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:25,120
Speaker 1: you use the same photo set and the same remote viewers. Right,

530
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 1: So the person who is the sender would sit there

531
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 1: and they would pick a photo and then they would

532
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 1: think about that photo, and the remote viewer would be

533
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 1: ideally somewhere else thinking about that what the sender was

534
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 1: thinking of, and then they would write down their impressions,

535
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 1: they would draw their impressions, and then they would compile

536
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 1: this little document basically of what they saw during the

537
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 1: remote viewing session. Okay, that's the first step. The second

538
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 1: step is that you take four other maybe five other

539
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 1: pick is from that same National Geographic Photo set, and

540
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 1: you could even physically put them as printed photos into

541
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 1: an envelope, and then you give that to the judge,

542
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:11,360
Speaker 1: who has nothing to do with any of this. To

543
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:15,480
Speaker 1: this point. They've just now been given an envelope of photos,

544
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 1: and then they've also been given the remote viewers um

545
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 1: document that they whipped up from the remote viewing session.

546
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:25,480
Speaker 1: And so the judge is supposed to take the remote

547
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 1: viewers impressions and and basically match them to one of

548
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 1: the photos, and so they rank the photos. If you

549
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 1: have six photos, there's one photo that's your number one

550
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:37,960
Speaker 1: photo that you're saying, like, this is what the remote

551
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 1: viewer was seeing. This one is the second likeliest, the

552
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:44,760
Speaker 1: third likeliest, fourth, fifth, and sixth likeliest, So you rank

553
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 1: the photos. If the remote viewer got it right, then

554
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:51,800
Speaker 1: the photo of the judge chose as chose as the

555
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:55,080
Speaker 1: number one photo should be the photo that the sender

556
00:32:55,240 --> 00:33:00,480
Speaker 1: was thinking of when the remote viewer got their impressions. Okay, sure,

557
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 1: it's actually, in a weird way, very scientific because you

558
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 1: can insert statistical analysis into this whole thing. And they did,

559
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:11,320
Speaker 1: and they found that over time, some remote viewers did

560
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 1: do much better than chance, just random chance, where out

561
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:19,320
Speaker 1: of every hundred tries, any photos should be chosen out

562
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 1: of a set of five, um, you know, twice. Yeah,

563
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 1: it was. I think the direct quote was from the

564
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 1: report was far beyond what is expected by chance. Yes,

565
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:31,479
Speaker 1: that supposedly came from a true believer statistician who had

566
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 1: done an analysis of this. But yes, there were there

567
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 1: were this. There was this idea that some of these

568
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 1: people were capable of of drawing impressions of what somebody

569
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 1: else in a different room was thinking based on a

570
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:46,960
Speaker 1: photo they were looking at. And then there are Now

571
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,000
Speaker 1: we can talk about all the explanations of how that

572
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:53,120
Speaker 1: probably wasn't any sort of clairvoyance. Yeah, and what bugs me,

573
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 1: just before we even get to that is in the

574
00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 1: report it said it was far beyond what is expected

575
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 1: by chance, Like, tell me what percentage chances and what

576
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:07,040
Speaker 1: percentage they got, not your opinion on what is far

577
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 1: beyond and what isn't right? Right? So that bugs me

578
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 1: right off the bat. That's a big one right there.

579
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 1: There's also subjectivity running through this big time, because the

580
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 1: judge is doing a subjective analysis to right. Yeah, and

581
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:22,760
Speaker 1: you know if they're picking another Like I mentioned, another

582
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 1: one of the problems is they use the same set

583
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 1: of one dred nat Geo images. So I imagine after

584
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:33,880
Speaker 1: a couple of times they know it's going to be

585
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 1: something about nature at the very least. And if they say,

586
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 1: let's say, lion attacking elk, they're like, no, but it's

587
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:48,239
Speaker 1: a tiger attacking an antelope. You win, you know, yep.

588
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 1: And then if that is the the only photo with

589
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:55,800
Speaker 1: anything like a lion in an elk or whatever tiger

590
00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:58,480
Speaker 1: um in the photos set the rest is like an

591
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:01,359
Speaker 1: oil derrick and a lake and some other stuff, then

592
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 1: of course that's the one that's gonna win. With With that,

593
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:06,600
Speaker 1: the judge is gonna choose and they're going to have

594
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 1: a hit. So there's a lot of like real problems

595
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 1: with us. Even though they tried to add like science

596
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:15,960
Speaker 1: to the whole thing. They they you just can't do

597
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:21,480
Speaker 1: it just right exactly. And then um, so so there

598
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:24,799
Speaker 1: that was just the experiments that they conducted to kind

599
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,600
Speaker 1: of show and demonstrate that this worked a lot of

600
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 1: the stuff that they used for intelligence that was much

601
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:34,759
Speaker 1: more along the lines of them the free association one.

602
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:37,560
Speaker 1: It's not called free association what is it called? Oh,

603
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 1: the free response experiments where they're just like, tell us

604
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:46,360
Speaker 1: about you know, the Soviets, any new submarine designs the

605
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:48,960
Speaker 1: Soviets are working on or something. So can we can

606
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:53,920
Speaker 1: we tell some of these uh stories that were supposedly successes. Yes,

607
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:57,000
Speaker 1: all right. The West Virginia site is the first one.

608
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 1: Uh DR targ relayed this story, and these were from

609
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:03,960
Speaker 1: the early days in the early seventies, in which a

610
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 1: remote viewer in California was given the longitude and latitude

611
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:12,240
Speaker 1: coordinates of somewhere in West Virginia said what do you see?

612
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:16,880
Speaker 1: And the remote viewer said, um, described like what was

613
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:20,560
Speaker 1: going on with a terrain above the ground and about

614
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 1: a secret underground government site, and supposedly provided names of

615
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:28,520
Speaker 1: personnel who worked there. Uh code words used for the

616
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:32,920
Speaker 1: top secret projects UM. And apparently the description was really

617
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:37,719
Speaker 1: really accurate, so accurate that the CIA said, Um, I

618
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:39,799
Speaker 1: don't know if it was the CIA, I assume it was,

619
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:42,400
Speaker 1: but they said that we've got a leak and we

620
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 1: need to find out what's going on and investigate this. Right,

621
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:48,239
Speaker 1: that's the kind of thing I think, like you said,

622
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:51,840
Speaker 1: that was an early seventies doctor targ one, Yeah, something

623
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 1: like that. That prompts an investigation into a leak. That's

624
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 1: that will get you more funding for a while. That

625
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:01,840
Speaker 1: like definitely will cement your scare the end of giving funding, Yeah,

626
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 1: for sure, especially Yeah, if people are jumpy about what that.

627
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 1: The Soviets might be onto this kind of thing too

628
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:08,960
Speaker 1: when we got to get on it. Sure. And apparently

629
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:13,160
Speaker 1: that same remote viewers saw or remotely saw um an

630
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:16,040
Speaker 1: underground site that was similar in Russia, and the Ural

631
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:21,560
Speaker 1: Mountains described that that was supposedly verified as quote substantially

632
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 1: correct by the CIA. Yep. So that was one of

633
00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:28,280
Speaker 1: the big ones that people kind of tout as evidence

634
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:31,400
Speaker 1: that Project Stargate worked. Right. There's also one called the

635
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:35,719
Speaker 1: Microwave Generator Report. UM. This one was with Dr May

636
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:40,239
Speaker 1: Dr Edwin May and um, the remote viewer was, as

637
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:44,440
Speaker 1: is typical, just given longitude and latitude, maybe given like

638
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:46,400
Speaker 1: a little more evidence. I think they were told that

639
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:49,960
Speaker 1: it was a technical site in the US, and the

640
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:55,080
Speaker 1: remote viewers started describing a microwave generator on site. And

641
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:59,400
Speaker 1: the most astounding thing about it is that the remote

642
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 1: viewers said that this microwave had a beam of divergence

643
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 1: angle of thirty degrees, which is not something that you

644
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:12,680
Speaker 1: should be able to glean from somebody telling you the

645
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:16,840
Speaker 1: latitude and longitude coordinates of a technical site. So that

646
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 1: is pretty impressive. And then later on Dr May took

647
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:23,800
Speaker 1: the whole description um, which is we'll see is is

648
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:27,400
Speaker 1: rare in these cases and and determine that it was

649
00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 1: that the specs of the generator itself were accurate, and

650
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:37,640
Speaker 1: that the site as a whole were se accurate, okay,

651
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:40,840
Speaker 1: seventy percent reliable. No idea how you would conclude that

652
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 1: or quantify that kind of thing. But again, this is

653
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:46,200
Speaker 1: the kind of thing like you're starting to build like

654
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 1: a lore around this department, this agency that people who

655
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 1: are already kind of into the existence of this kind

656
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:58,560
Speaker 1: of thing can come and participate in and talk about

657
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:01,400
Speaker 1: with their friends and wow, people at cocktail parties with

658
00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 1: the Russian crane. This one came from doctor targ remote

659
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 1: viewer was given again coordinates of a site near a

660
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:14,080
Speaker 1: city in the former Soviet Union, and there was a

661
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 1: um in the in like what do you see? What

662
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:20,480
Speaker 1: the drawing detailed was a large industrial crane called a

663
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:24,280
Speaker 1: gantry clane crane. And they said, you know what, there's

664
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:27,239
Speaker 1: no way that this person could have known how to

665
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:30,760
Speaker 1: draw this gantry crane unless they saw it through remote

666
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:36,320
Speaker 1: viewing or someone told them this. No other explanation, yeah, um,

667
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 1: And that was what the analyst who has handed this

668
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 1: was like, wow, that's really impressive. So the Russian crane

669
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:45,719
Speaker 1: stands on its own too. And then there's also one

670
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 1: called the Lowell Fugitive. There's a woman named Angela Ford

671
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:54,759
Speaker 1: who was a longtime participant in Project stargate Um and

672
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:59,319
Speaker 1: she used kind of medium ship where she had three

673
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 1: different we're at guides who would cause her to carry

674
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:06,520
Speaker 1: out automatic writing. That's how she did her remote viewing right.

675
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:10,040
Speaker 1: And she and this is you know, she would go

676
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 1: down to Fort Meat at the barracks and do this

677
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:16,120
Speaker 1: right under army supervision, which is so bizarre, but that's

678
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:19,279
Speaker 1: what would happen, right. So Angela Ford was given the

679
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:22,080
Speaker 1: name of a guy named Charles Jordan's who was an

680
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:25,399
Speaker 1: interesting cat in and of himself. He was he called

681
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:29,560
Speaker 1: himself the ruler of the Florida Keys. He was at

682
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 1: he was He's the prince of the flooria um. He

683
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:38,279
Speaker 1: was the He was a crooked customs agent who had

684
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:41,440
Speaker 1: turned into a drug smuggler down there. And also it

685
00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:44,239
Speaker 1: was very easily bribed so that other drugs smugglers could

686
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:48,600
Speaker 1: smuggle their drugs. And he got caught and went on

687
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:50,239
Speaker 1: the run, and so they were looking for him. So

688
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 1: they asked Angela Ford if she could find him for

689
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:57,120
Speaker 1: him that's right, And she said, I'm seeing or my

690
00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:00,440
Speaker 1: friends or my ghost friends are telling me and I'm

691
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:05,959
Speaker 1: automatically writing this city Lowell, Wyoming. And it turned out

692
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:09,920
Speaker 1: that he was apprehended a hundred miles west of Lavelle,

693
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:14,399
Speaker 1: Wyoming with a v but a hundred miles west of

694
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:18,319
Speaker 1: a place that she still didn't name. Some people say, though,

695
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:23,960
Speaker 1: that Charles Jordan's admitted to being in the town on

696
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:30,239
Speaker 1: the day Angela Ford did her remote viewing sension proven right,

697
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:34,560
Speaker 1: So you've got all this stuff, all of these anecdotes

698
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:37,799
Speaker 1: that are just coming together into like get this, check

699
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 1: this out, get a load of this. Were all these

700
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:42,759
Speaker 1: things that you can point to and write books on

701
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:44,920
Speaker 1: and say that like this is for real and that

702
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:48,799
Speaker 1: the Washington Post can report on. And that's what's kept

703
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 1: this legend, this stuff about Project Stargaping for real going

704
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:56,880
Speaker 1: all these years. And if you dig it to it,

705
00:41:56,880 --> 00:42:01,080
Speaker 1: it's really really hard to pull up heart because the

706
00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:04,200
Speaker 1: people who were there will tell you in an interview like, oh,

707
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:06,840
Speaker 1: this person said this. But then if you interview somebody

708
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:08,799
Speaker 1: else to say, well, now they didn't say that. She

709
00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:12,279
Speaker 1: didn't say she didn't say Lowell, she said northern Wyoming.

710
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:15,080
Speaker 1: Somebody else would say no, she just said, you know,

711
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:18,319
Speaker 1: somewhere in the west or something like that. So as

712
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:23,319
Speaker 1: the story of Charles Jordan being captured in Yellowstone Um

713
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:27,920
Speaker 1: comes out later, the story of Angela Ford remotely viewing

714
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:31,560
Speaker 1: him in Wyoming gets piled on and added to over

715
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:35,080
Speaker 1: the years until you have her just missing the letter

716
00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:38,440
Speaker 1: of the word or the word by one letter and

717
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:40,239
Speaker 1: then seeing him in that town on the day that

718
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:43,319
Speaker 1: it happened. And that's how like this stuff goes it's

719
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:47,279
Speaker 1: just anecdotal stuff that really did happen, Like she really

720
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:50,120
Speaker 1: did have this remote viewing session. But the accuracy of

721
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:53,480
Speaker 1: it is what's always been in doubt. The problem is, Chuck,

722
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:59,719
Speaker 1: is there are examples of people doing some really spectacularly

723
00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:05,920
Speaker 1: amazingly accurate hits over the years that really kind of

724
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:09,600
Speaker 1: lend credence to it in in some way, so much

725
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:13,400
Speaker 1: so that that American Research instau American Institute of Research

726
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 1: paper still said, look, there are some weird, unexplainable stuff

727
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:22,240
Speaker 1: in here. Does it prove that remote viewing is real

728
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:25,280
Speaker 1: and that it exists. No, there's a lot of things

729
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:31,920
Speaker 1: that could explain these spectacular accurate hits, but overall, no,

730
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:34,920
Speaker 1: it's not going to It doesn't show that this is

731
00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:39,319
Speaker 1: this is real because these are the hits. There was

732
00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:43,879
Speaker 1: so much garbage produced that by the time old around

733
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:47,120
Speaker 1: the CIA was like, this is even if remote viewing

734
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 1: does exist, it's so useless as an intelligence tool that

735
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:53,080
Speaker 1: we're not going to fund it anymore. Should we take

736
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:57,640
Speaker 1: another break? Yeah, all right, let's take a break it.

737
00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:27,839
Speaker 1: We'll be right back after this. Alright. So here's the deal,

738
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 1: and this is sort of the big question which you

739
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:33,839
Speaker 1: kind of answered before the break, is it no, that's

740
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:36,440
Speaker 1: sor right, it's a It was a nice tease. Is

741
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:39,719
Speaker 1: it a useful spy tool because we can have fun

742
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:42,920
Speaker 1: all day funding something and doing these fun experiments and

743
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 1: getting them sort of right or not. But the whole

744
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:48,440
Speaker 1: purpose of all of this was can we actually use

745
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:55,200
Speaker 1: this stuff as actionable evidence or intelligence? And you can't. Really. Um,

746
00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:58,600
Speaker 1: Like we said, they are anecdotal um. They might be

747
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:02,680
Speaker 1: impressed by a certain part of a thing, and you

748
00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:04,719
Speaker 1: mentioned that it is rare that they ever included like

749
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:08,400
Speaker 1: the full drawing or the full discourse on whatever they

750
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:10,759
Speaker 1: supposedly saw it didn't see. They would sort of pick

751
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:12,919
Speaker 1: out something that was right and say, look they got

752
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:16,160
Speaker 1: this one part right. That's amazing. But that's sort of

753
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:19,840
Speaker 1: where it ended. Um, the with the with the gantry crane.

754
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:22,960
Speaker 1: You know, they got that gantry crane right, but there

755
00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:26,200
Speaker 1: was there was so much stuff that was wrong that

756
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:29,640
Speaker 1: they said, we we can't use this. And that's sort

757
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:32,560
Speaker 1: of the point of all this is, we can't use

758
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:38,200
Speaker 1: this stuff as intelligence because it's just partial. Uh. People

759
00:45:38,239 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 1: that defended it would say, and Jordan mcmonagle is one

760
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:44,279
Speaker 1: of them, said, this isn't supposed to be the end

761
00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:47,759
Speaker 1: all be all. This is supposed to work alongside real

762
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:51,400
Speaker 1: intelligence and just see if it could help support some

763
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:53,560
Speaker 1: of this stuff or give them a hint in the

764
00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:56,520
Speaker 1: right direction to start using real intelligence. And it was

765
00:45:56,600 --> 00:45:59,840
Speaker 1: never supposed to be a stand alone that you go

766
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:03,040
Speaker 1: in like raid a Russian village because some remote viewers

767
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:06,120
Speaker 1: said there was a nuclear weapon there or something. Yeah. Yeah,

768
00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 1: And I think the CIA always viewed as that too,

769
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:12,080
Speaker 1: and that like it was benign. It was very cheap

770
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:15,960
Speaker 1: and inexpensive. It can be done easily, um. But the

771
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:19,000
Speaker 1: problem is is like if you have somebody who's producing

772
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:23,680
Speaker 1: tons and tons of garbage intelligence, the analysts still has

773
00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:27,600
Speaker 1: to sift through that, and in some of that garbage intelligence,

774
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:30,360
Speaker 1: there may be something that leads them down the wrong path,

775
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:33,879
Speaker 1: and while they're doing that, they miss some other intelligence

776
00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:38,120
Speaker 1: that that actually is useful and good. And so it's

777
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:41,600
Speaker 1: kind of like a metaphor for what pseudoscience in general

778
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:44,719
Speaker 1: does the society, Like there's garbage on there that kind

779
00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:46,920
Speaker 1: of distracts you from the stuff that you could be

780
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:49,680
Speaker 1: doing that would actually be beneficial. That's what it did

781
00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:53,440
Speaker 1: to intelligence analysts too, and that's why they ultimately abandoned

782
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:56,320
Speaker 1: the whole program. Right, But for twenty years they thought,

783
00:46:57,080 --> 00:46:59,200
Speaker 1: you know, there were three big reasons why it was attractive,

784
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:00,960
Speaker 1: and they all kind of boy down to why not.

785
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 1: Which it's it's a passive operation, so it's it doesn't

786
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:08,160
Speaker 1: require a lot of resources. It's you know, I don't

787
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:10,800
Speaker 1: know how many people they had remote viewing it their max,

788
00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:13,360
Speaker 1: but I doubt if it was that many. Um, it

789
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:15,279
Speaker 1: didn't cost a lot. Six million bucks a year isn't

790
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:18,520
Speaker 1: that much money? And a defense budget. And then it's

791
00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:22,280
Speaker 1: what's known as no known defense. So even if it's working,

792
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:26,760
Speaker 1: let's say, then the enemy can't really stop this, Um,

793
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:29,480
Speaker 1: I guess except for rooting these people out and tracking

794
00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:32,440
Speaker 1: them down and killing them. Sure, But aside from that,

795
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:35,600
Speaker 1: those are the three reasons. For twenty years, they threw

796
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:37,919
Speaker 1: six million bucks a year at it, and I'm sure

797
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:40,600
Speaker 1: that kind of waivered in and out. But you know,

798
00:47:40,719 --> 00:47:44,600
Speaker 1: they spent ollion dollars. No, I think they spent twenty

799
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:48,480
Speaker 1: million dollars over twenty years. Oh is that all? Yeah? Man?

800
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:51,080
Speaker 1: That was it for the whole the whole time. Spent

801
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:53,759
Speaker 1: six million a year. No, I think it might have

802
00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:56,560
Speaker 1: been up to like six million dollars at the end

803
00:47:56,600 --> 00:47:58,880
Speaker 1: of it, but over over the course of it, and

804
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:01,520
Speaker 1: I don't think this is really necessarily adjusted for inflation.

805
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:04,400
Speaker 1: But starting in seventy five and ending in nine, twenty

806
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:07,720
Speaker 1: million dollars, you know, on paper, is what got spent.

807
00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:09,879
Speaker 1: So those first years it was like, here's a hundred

808
00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:12,319
Speaker 1: thousand dollars in a bucket of weed, kind of I

809
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:15,920
Speaker 1: think so in some grape cool ais and saltines. Alright, well,

810
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:18,080
Speaker 1: twenty million bucks. But um, yeah, that's not a lot

811
00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:21,600
Speaker 1: of money for you know, if you're talking overall defense budgets. No,

812
00:48:21,719 --> 00:48:24,879
Speaker 1: it's not. And so it's it's so cheap that we're

813
00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:29,680
Speaker 1: even vaguely promising or vaguely helpful. The c i A

814
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:32,480
Speaker 1: would have been fools not to keep funding this, or

815
00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:36,560
Speaker 1: the Defense Department would have been fools not to keep

816
00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:39,279
Speaker 1: funding it. Somebody and I could have kept funding it

817
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:41,560
Speaker 1: if we really put our minds to it. But it

818
00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:47,799
Speaker 1: it not only wasn't useful, it it did not It

819
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:51,680
Speaker 1: was actually harmful as far as an intelligence tool is concerned.

820
00:48:51,719 --> 00:48:54,360
Speaker 1: That was I think what I gather from them finally

821
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:57,120
Speaker 1: canceling it. Yeah, and this, you know, this last bit

822
00:48:57,160 --> 00:49:00,520
Speaker 1: about the representative from North Carolina, Charlie Rose, not the

823
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:05,160
Speaker 1: not the the TV guy who's turned out to be

824
00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:08,640
Speaker 1: quite a jerk, but um, he kind of summed it up.

825
00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:10,319
Speaker 1: And this is what I think the deal is is

826
00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:13,000
Speaker 1: if and this is what started it to begin with.

827
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:15,680
Speaker 1: If you think the Soviets are doing this, you can't

828
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:18,200
Speaker 1: just sit back, or at least that's the rationale. You

829
00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:21,480
Speaker 1: can't just sit back and say, well it's it's probably

830
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:25,240
Speaker 1: so silly and not even real, but um, we're certainly

831
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:29,399
Speaker 1: not going to let them be the only ones trying this. Yeah, yeah,

832
00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:31,600
Speaker 1: like if the Ruskies have it, we sure as heck

833
00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 1: better be on it ourselves. Luckily, Um well I was

834
00:49:37,040 --> 00:49:39,439
Speaker 1: gonna say luckily that mentality favor with the Cold War.

835
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:43,560
Speaker 1: But it's back, everybody. Hey, the eighties are back. Yeah

836
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:47,120
Speaker 1: they are big time people wearing Fannie packs. And apparently

837
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:49,960
Speaker 1: there's um, what's that one thing where like you touched

838
00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:52,560
Speaker 1: the shirt and like your handprint would be a color.

839
00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:57,360
Speaker 1: Oh sure, like the the heat Heat shirts or whatever.

840
00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:00,520
Speaker 1: I can't remember what they're called, but anyways, apparently a yeah,

841
00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:05,640
Speaker 1: eighties are back. So that's it. That's Project Stargate. There's

842
00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:08,640
Speaker 1: a lot to read about it. If you're fascinated by it,

843
00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:11,839
Speaker 1: whether you're fascinated by it it's just completely crackpot thing,

844
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:14,279
Speaker 1: or you're like, Nope, I don't believe you, Josh and Chuck.

845
00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:18,160
Speaker 1: I think you're covering up for the government, in the Illuminati, whatever.

846
00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:21,319
Speaker 1: Go read more about it, and in particular, I want

847
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:25,759
Speaker 1: to I want to direct you to Mars Exploration May

848
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:31,440
Speaker 1: twenty second. It's a declassified transcript from a remote viewing

849
00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:35,480
Speaker 1: session of Mars where they asked the I think Joseph

850
00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:40,919
Speaker 1: mcmonagle to wander around Mars um At in the year

851
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:45,600
Speaker 1: one million b C. And it's fascinating stuff. But it

852
00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:47,680
Speaker 1: also tells you everything you need to know about Project

853
00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:51,279
Speaker 1: Star Gake. Uh if you want to know what I

854
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:53,120
Speaker 1: already said that kind of thing, didn't I, Chuck. I

855
00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:57,799
Speaker 1: guess it's time now for listener mail. I'm gonna call

856
00:50:57,880 --> 00:51:03,879
Speaker 1: this Heroin Podcast and this is from anonymous YO. Thanks

857
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:07,759
Speaker 1: for your Heroin podcast. You spoke fairly about something that

858
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:10,480
Speaker 1: is usually wrought with bias. I grew up in the

859
00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:13,160
Speaker 1: Kensington neighborhood of Philadelphia. It's one of the largest drug

860
00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:16,319
Speaker 1: markets in the world, most of which is heroin. We

861
00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:19,759
Speaker 1: are ground zero now for the opioid epidemic. Growing up

862
00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:22,839
Speaker 1: around so much heroin messes with you. My childhood best

863
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:25,560
Speaker 1: friends UH turned to sex work to pay for it

864
00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:28,640
Speaker 1: while we played video games upstairs. People were odean in

865
00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:31,160
Speaker 1: middle school the class clowns. Dad was one of the

866
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:34,000
Speaker 1: biggest runners in the city, so when he was arrested,

867
00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:37,239
Speaker 1: the kid was never the same. It's very difficult to

868
00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:39,759
Speaker 1: explain what being around groups of people on heroin is like.

869
00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:42,879
Speaker 1: The link below is an excellent New York Times article

870
00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:46,240
Speaker 1: about the Kensington Avenue area. Luckily for me, I suppose

871
00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:49,320
Speaker 1: I got out relatively unscathed. A lot of people see

872
00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:53,240
Speaker 1: people who are addicted as animals and criminals. I struggle

873
00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:55,600
Speaker 1: with where I stand. I know, as a group it's

874
00:51:55,600 --> 00:51:58,080
Speaker 1: a public health issue, but it is also hard when

875
00:51:58,120 --> 00:52:01,600
Speaker 1: looking at the individual's actions. Kensington was a middle class

876
00:52:01,640 --> 00:52:04,719
Speaker 1: haven from the early to mid nineteenth century until the

877
00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:07,600
Speaker 1: crack epidemic of the eighties. According to my parents, a

878
00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:10,920
Speaker 1: Sunday event was walking to the shops on Kensington Avenue.

879
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:15,440
Speaker 1: Did not happen after that and that Here's the article.

880
00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:18,640
Speaker 1: It is called Trapped by the Walmart of Heroin by

881
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:22,279
Speaker 1: Jennifer Percy from New York Times October and that is

882
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:26,200
Speaker 1: from anonymous man alive. Anonymous, I'm glad you made it

883
00:52:26,239 --> 00:52:31,000
Speaker 1: out alive because that is very scary stuff. What a man,

884
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:34,760
Speaker 1: It's crazy. It makes you realize what what what a

885
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:38,960
Speaker 1: lottery birth is? You know, not just in like your

886
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:41,960
Speaker 1: socioeconomic class or your race or what country you're born into,

887
00:52:42,080 --> 00:52:45,440
Speaker 1: but like where, what neighborhood you're born into too. I've

888
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:48,080
Speaker 1: never heard of it. Yeah, I hadn't either. Read that article.

889
00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:50,920
Speaker 1: That looks good. Yeah, well, thanks a lot. And uh,

890
00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:52,879
Speaker 1: we appreciate you getting in touch with us, and if

891
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:54,920
Speaker 1: you want to get in touch with us, please do.

892
00:52:55,600 --> 00:52:58,719
Speaker 1: You can send us an email to Stuff podcast at

893
00:52:58,719 --> 00:53:05,080
Speaker 1: iHeart Radio. Comm Stuff you Should Know is a production

894
00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:07,840
Speaker 1: of iHeart Radio's How Stuff Works. For more podcasts. For

895
00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:10,640
Speaker 1: my heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

896
00:53:10,760 --> 00:53:15,600
Speaker 1: or where ever you listen to your favorite shows. H