1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:04,360 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Sound on podcast. Catch us 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:07,560 Speaker 1: live weekdays at one Eastern on Bloomberg dot com, the 3 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:10,760 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app and the Bloomberg Business app, or listen on 4 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:12,840 Speaker 1: demand wherever you get your podcasts. 5 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:16,919 Speaker 2: The thing, we got a debt deal. That gosh, that 6 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:19,239 Speaker 2: seems like so long ago, a Kaylee, when we were 7 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:21,239 Speaker 2: talking about the debt ceiling. Then of course there was 8 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:24,280 Speaker 2: the revolt by conservative Republicans to say, well, this doesn't 9 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 2: cut spending the way we wanted, and the whole debt 10 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:30,160 Speaker 2: picture really hasn't changed all that much here has it? 11 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:33,479 Speaker 2: As they read this forecast, this is something else from 12 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:36,839 Speaker 2: the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget. And we typically 13 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:40,600 Speaker 2: talk about appropriations, you know, with Maya and with Mark 14 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:44,440 Speaker 2: who's going to join us just a second? Uh, super smart. 15 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 2: They wear the green visors. Check out the check out 16 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 2: these headlines. This is I'm reading here analysis of CBO's 17 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 2: June twenty twenty three long term budget out look. Debt 18 00:00:56,720 --> 00:01:00,280 Speaker 2: will grow rapidly as share of the economy, Deficit will 19 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:07,200 Speaker 2: explode explode, Spending will continuously outpace revenue. The budget outlook 20 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:11,319 Speaker 2: is better than last year's, but still troubling. Yes, Mark Goldwine, 21 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 2: It's great to see you in studio. This is quite 22 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 2: a bit to look forward to here. 23 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 3: Well, I'm glad to be here and I hope not 24 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 3: to depress you too much, but. 25 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 2: It's a fact that debt limit deal did not change 26 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:26,959 Speaker 2: the long term trajectory for our debt at all, not 27 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:27,440 Speaker 2: too much. 28 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 3: I mean, look, it was actually, I think an important 29 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 3: step in the right direction. We were looking at the 30 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:34,759 Speaker 3: budget and we think you need about eight trillion dollars 31 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:37,319 Speaker 3: over a decade just to stop the debt from growing 32 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:40,319 Speaker 3: faster than the economy. The budget deal gave us one 33 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:43,679 Speaker 3: to two trillion, so it's a start, but we have 34 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 3: a lot more work to do. 35 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 4: I feel like that might fall under the category of 36 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 4: baby steps. Yes, sure, we'll go with that baby step. 37 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 3: You have to understand that the criteria before then was 38 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 3: only walking backwards, so the fact that we're walking forwards 39 00:01:57,040 --> 00:01:57,680 Speaker 3: is a big step. 40 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 4: Okay, so looking at the half full here perhaps, But 41 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 4: when we're talking, Joe was talking about the headlines when 42 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 4: you say spending is going to continually outpace revenue, talking 43 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:13,080 Speaker 4: about how spending growth, which is driven by rising retirement, healthcare, 44 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:16,360 Speaker 4: net interest costs, that's where it all comes from, and 45 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 4: these are the things that no one wants to touch. 46 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 4: So it just becomes a question mark of how we 47 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 4: get out of this little predicament. 48 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:22,919 Speaker 1: Yeah. 49 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 3: Look, the three biggest government programs are Social Security, Medicare, 50 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:31,360 Speaker 3: and defense. The three fastest growing ones are social scurity, Medicare, 51 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 3: and Medicaid. Guess where the four programs are that every 52 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:36,360 Speaker 3: politician says they won't touch off the table and then 53 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:38,960 Speaker 3: veterans on top of that. Right, we did an analysis. If 54 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 3: you took social scurity, Medicare, and veterans off the table, 55 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 3: you have to cut everything else like eighty percent to 56 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:47,680 Speaker 3: balance the budget. It's just not realistic, and so we've 57 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 3: got to be grown ups here. We've got to admit 58 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 3: that social Security is going to need some adjustments if 59 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:54,960 Speaker 3: we want to avoid insolvency, which is only ten years 60 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 3: away by the way. 61 00:02:56,440 --> 00:02:56,919 Speaker 2: Medicare. 62 00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:00,520 Speaker 3: There's plenty of policies that actually both parties support, but 63 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 3: they're too busy beating each other over their head to 64 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 3: move forward and actually pass them. 65 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 2: Because everybody's running for re election perpetually in Washington. So 66 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 2: in the scenario that you just outline, you take social 67 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:14,840 Speaker 2: Security off the table, Medicare's off the table, veterans off 68 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 2: the table. We kind of took the Pentagon off the 69 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 2: table too. Now you've got to go into an appropriations 70 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 2: process to make conservative Republicans think that there are steep 71 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:28,120 Speaker 2: budget cuts here and there's very little to work with, 72 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:31,800 Speaker 2: which is why everyone's forecasting already a government shut down. 73 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:32,639 Speaker 2: Do you see it that way? 74 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:36,840 Speaker 3: I think that's right. So the budget deal on paper 75 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 3: cut non defense discretionary five or six percent from this year. 76 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 3: In reality, they agree to all these side agreements that 77 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 3: made it more like a freeze. What the Freedom Caucus 78 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 3: folks are actually asking for is just more side agreements. 79 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 3: They're not changing the underlying levels. They're trying to find 80 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 3: what's called recisions one time spending cuts that mostly aren't real, 81 00:03:57,440 --> 00:04:00,840 Speaker 3: in order to make the numbers look deeper without actually 82 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 3: getting at the heart of the problem. And by the way, 83 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 3: the heart of the problem isn't the discretionary budget again, 84 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 3: it's social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, defense. That doesn't mean we 85 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 3: shouldn't cut spending and raise revenue wherever you know spending 86 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 3: is wasteful or tax breaks aren't doing any good. But 87 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:19,839 Speaker 3: if we don't tackle the healthcare and retirement programs. Nothing 88 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 3: else is going to matter in the long run. 89 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:25,039 Speaker 4: Well, when we talk about tackling those those mandatory sides 90 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 4: of the ledger, it's because people don't want to be 91 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 4: seen cutting those benefits. But as you talk about, like 92 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:31,840 Speaker 4: recisions and some of the little fancy math you can 93 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 4: do that aren't necessarily just a blanket we're going to 94 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:37,719 Speaker 4: cut by x percent? Is that a potential way out 95 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:40,279 Speaker 4: of this just finding specific areas which in those programs 96 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:42,360 Speaker 4: where you could maybe trim. 97 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 3: I think we can trim to take some more baby steps. Okay, 98 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 3: but the fact of the matter is is we have 99 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 3: an eight trillion dollar problem. There's not eight trillion dollars 100 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 3: of decisions out there. So we should try to trim. 101 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:55,840 Speaker 3: And by the way, we should try to trim in 102 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:58,719 Speaker 3: medicare there are places that we've identified that we're just 103 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 3: overpaying a certain provider where you know, there's an incentive 104 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 3: that doesn't make sense. So we can do trimming even 105 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 3: in these big programs. But at the end of the day, 106 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 3: trimming isn't going to get us there. 107 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:11,040 Speaker 4: We need a full haircut. 108 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:14,159 Speaker 2: We need a haircut, your haircut, and maybe you need 109 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 2: more than that you know, we talk about the balance 110 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 2: sheet here. I know the government is not a company, 111 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 2: and I'll take some I'll get nice tweets for asking 112 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 2: you this, But we're how do we not need to 113 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:26,039 Speaker 2: talk about the revenue side as well? If we're actually 114 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:28,280 Speaker 2: going to be grown ups to your point about eliminating 115 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 2: this problem and there are, we're taking two thirds of 116 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 2: the budget off the table. Do we need to raise 117 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 2: little money? 118 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 3: We're going to need more revenue, no question, right. So 119 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:41,039 Speaker 3: both parties have essentially said they won't touch soci security, 120 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:43,680 Speaker 3: they won't touch medicare. Yeah, both parties have also essentially 121 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:46,120 Speaker 3: said they won't raise taxes on ninety eight percent of Americans. 122 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:47,160 Speaker 2: So we're stuck, right. 123 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 3: The difference between the Democrats Republicans are Republicans don't want 124 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 3: to raise taxes on anybody and Democrats only don't want 125 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:55,480 Speaker 3: to raise taxes on ninety eight percent of people. That 126 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:58,160 Speaker 3: is not sustainable. We are going to need more revenue. 127 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:02,480 Speaker 3: And the truth is, or to my Republican friends, there's 128 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 3: so many tax breaks in the code that are basically 129 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 3: just spending, and if you want to cut spending, you 130 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:10,719 Speaker 3: should also look at cutting spending in the tax code. 131 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 3: Why do we subsidize mortgage interest? Well, why do we 132 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:17,279 Speaker 3: subsidize state in local taxes? Why do we subsidize healthcare 133 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 3: insurance so heavily in the tax code? We need to 134 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 3: look at these the same way we would look at medicare, 135 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:23,840 Speaker 3: the same way we would look. 136 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 1: At food stamps. 137 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:27,480 Speaker 4: But what we consistently hear from the Republican side, and 138 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:30,000 Speaker 4: during the course of the debt sealing conversations, we were 139 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:32,480 Speaker 4: asking pretty much every Republican lawmaker we had on this 140 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 4: show and on Balance of Power, this question of why 141 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:36,839 Speaker 4: not look at the revenue side of the equation? And 142 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 4: they say, well, we're already bringing in record revenue. We're 143 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:41,840 Speaker 4: bringing in more revenue than we ever have before. So 144 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:44,360 Speaker 4: what's the flaw in that argument When technically there are 145 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 4: more dollars coming into that side of the balance sheet. 146 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 4: It's just that, you know, it's also swelling on the 147 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 4: other side, So. 148 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 3: It's really a data statistic. In twenty twenty two, we 149 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:56,160 Speaker 3: did have near record revenue is a share of the economy. 150 00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 3: That was for two reasons, massive inflation, and the tax 151 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 3: code's an index inflation, but it's on a lag. So 152 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:03,280 Speaker 3: we brought in the money first and then it got 153 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 3: index the next year and a one time infusion of 154 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:08,720 Speaker 3: capital games. If you look over the last twelve months, 155 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 3: revenue has actually already fallen back down to about its 156 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 3: historic average, so that record revenue is behind us, way 157 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 3: behind us. In fact, revenue this year is probably going 158 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 3: to be exactly what the Congressional Budget Office thought it 159 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 3: would be right after we pass the twenty seventeen tax cuts, 160 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 3: like within two billion dollars if you adjust for inflation. 161 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 3: So the record revenue is gone. If there compromises, let's 162 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 3: get back to twenty twenty two levels of revenue and 163 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 3: keep it there. I'm all game, but that's going to 164 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 3: require actually raising a lot more than what we're doing now. 165 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 2: Maybe they wouldn't need to cut one hundred and thirty 166 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:44,119 Speaker 2: billion dollars to keep the government open, because that's basically 167 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 2: what we're looking at here from the demands from the 168 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 2: Freedom Caucus. 169 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 3: And look in the appropriations process. There's definitely going to 170 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 3: be some chaos here before the storm. But there's talk 171 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 3: of passing a continuing resolution in advance to prevent a 172 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 3: shutdown that would result in another one percent cut. We 173 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 3: can we can barrow one percent. 174 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 2: Cut that was part of the debt agreement, right, that 175 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 2: one percent cross the board. 176 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 3: Part of the agreement was if you don't get your 177 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 3: appropriations done, there's an additional one percent cut as a penalty. 178 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 2: It's like mini sequester, mini sequester. 179 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 3: Frankly, that wouldn't be the end of the world. You know, 180 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 3: anybody can anybody can figar how to cut one percent. 181 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 3: Talk to any company, talk to any family. You can 182 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 3: always find one percent. That wouldn't be the end of 183 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 3: the world. It's not the best way to budget because 184 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 3: we ought to actually pass each appropriation bill. But if 185 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 3: that's where we land, I think we'll be okay. 186 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 4: Just finally because we haven't touched on it as much. 187 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 4: But this idea of the net interest payments that the 188 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:36,720 Speaker 4: government actually has to pay because of its very high 189 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 4: debt load, especially when we're talking about the FED that 190 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 4: may hike interest rates once again, we're just in a 191 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 4: much higher rate environment. How should we be thinking about 192 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 4: that because there's no guarantee that that's going to be 193 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:47,560 Speaker 4: a story that changes anytime soon. 194 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:47,959 Speaker 1: Yeah. 195 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:49,959 Speaker 3: In fact, I mean, if I've been looking at bondils 196 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 3: a little bit today, I wouldn't be surprised if by 197 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 3: the end of the day, every yield's above four percent. 198 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 3: We have a lot of them at already above five percent. 199 00:08:56,640 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 3: We have very high interest rates now compared to where 200 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 3: they've been the last the last couple of decades, the 201 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:05,439 Speaker 3: last decade, and that's feeding into the budget. Interest is 202 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:09,560 Speaker 3: the fastest single growing government program. This year, the government 203 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:11,719 Speaker 3: will spend more in interest than everything that spends on 204 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 3: children the federal level. By twenty twenty nine, interest is 205 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:18,200 Speaker 3: going to breach the defense budget, and by twenty fifty 206 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 3: or so, interest is on course to be the single 207 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 3: largest government program, Larger than social curity, larger than medicare, 208 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:25,079 Speaker 3: larger than defense. 209 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:26,719 Speaker 1: What that sink in? 210 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 2: Yeah? Uh, come back and see us when everyone gets 211 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 2: back to town and we start arguing over this stuff 212 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:34,439 Speaker 2: all over again, because we count on your insights. Mark, 213 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:37,559 Speaker 2: great to see in studio. Thanks Mark Goldwines, Senior vice president, 214 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:41,320 Speaker 2: senior policy director at the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget. 215 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:42,959 Speaker 2: With us here on Bloomberg's Sound On. 216 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Sound On podcast. Catch the 217 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 1: program live weekdays at one eastern on Bloomberg Radio, the 218 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 1: tune in app, Bloomberg dot Com, and the Bloomberg Business app. 219 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 1: You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our 220 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 1: flagship New York station, Just say Alex play Bloomberg eleven. 221 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:06,440 Speaker 2: Thirty should be quite a moment when Sweden's Prime Minister 222 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 2: comes face to face with Turkish presidents Erdowan on Monday, 223 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:18,680 Speaker 2: a last ditch effort to convince Turkey to actually allow 224 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 2: Sweden to join NATO. This is something that has been 225 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:25,320 Speaker 2: in the mix for months now, promoted by the Biden 226 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 2: administration and supported by NATO, including its head Jen Stoltenberg. 227 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 5: Today we reaffirmed that Sweden's membership is within reach and 228 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:38,199 Speaker 5: that ratification of Sweden's membership does not mean the end 229 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 5: of cooperation with Turkeia. Far from it, as Finland's continuing 230 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:45,079 Speaker 5: engagement here today shows. 231 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 2: Let's reassemble the panel. We're going to cover a couple 232 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 2: of topics here with Rick Davis and Jeanie Shansey. No 233 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:55,360 Speaker 2: Bloomberg Politics contributors. Your thoughts here, Rick, It didn't seem 234 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 2: like it was that revolutionary when President Biden put forth 235 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 2: the idea of feeling in Sweden joining How important is 236 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:03,920 Speaker 2: it though for this to happen? 237 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 6: Well, I think that it sends a critical message to 238 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 6: Vladimir Putin that the initiative that he tried to invade 239 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 6: Ukraine to split up NATO actually had the result reversed 240 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:21,000 Speaker 6: and it actually increased NATO. So I think that narrative 241 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:25,679 Speaker 6: is an incredibly powerful narrative for Europe, Eastern Europe, and frankly, 242 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:29,160 Speaker 6: the message to China about solidarity. And I think the 243 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 6: fact that Turkey and to some degree Hungary you know, 244 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:35,079 Speaker 6: have been sort of the flying the ointment on getting 245 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 6: this band together is got repercussions. I mean, Turkey wants 246 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 6: F sixteen's and we want them to be dependent upon 247 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 6: our war machine, not Russia's, and so something like this 248 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:52,959 Speaker 6: would probably have to be worked out in order for 249 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:55,679 Speaker 6: them to do the right thing and allow Sweden. 250 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:58,080 Speaker 2: In GINI are the Jets. Are the F sixteens enough 251 00:11:58,320 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 2: to make this happen? 252 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:02,960 Speaker 7: They well might be. And we saw in Punchbowl News 253 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 7: today that you had Mitch McConnell saying he agreed with 254 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:09,320 Speaker 7: Menandez that you know, he thinks that we should hold 255 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 7: up the sale of those F sixteens. Now, of course, 256 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:15,960 Speaker 7: the Biden administration says, you know, the two are not connected, 257 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 7: but it seems that there may be more behind the 258 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 7: scenes than they are willing to say at this point. 259 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 7: And this has been a top priority for the Biden 260 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 7: administration ever since the start of the Ukraine War that 261 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:32,560 Speaker 7: they wanted to get Sweden into NATO, and so they 262 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:35,960 Speaker 7: see it as a critical way to show a unified 263 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 7: Western European NATO front versus Russia and Turkey. Objecting is 264 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 7: something that I think they feel like they can deal with, 265 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 7: in part by holding these f sixteens over their head. 266 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:48,319 Speaker 1: Yeah. 267 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 2: Well, as the administration is waiting for a call on 268 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:54,360 Speaker 2: Sweden here, it is apparently not going to be calling 269 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 2: Facebook for help. As you might have heard here, the 270 00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:01,839 Speaker 2: administration is going to appeal a court ruling that cuts 271 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 2: down on the ability limits the ability of federal officials 272 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 2: to interact with social media companies. Knowing that there's been 273 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:10,480 Speaker 2: like a daily Sync meeting, I think they'll mind meld 274 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:13,959 Speaker 2: with the administration and folks at Facebook. They've made phone calls. 275 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:16,200 Speaker 2: We know that from the Twitter files. I'm not going 276 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 2: to get into that whole thing, but the idea of 277 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:20,559 Speaker 2: somebody at the White House Rick picking up the phone 278 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 2: and calling Twitter or Facebook about misinformation is going to 279 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 2: become a lot more difficult now This is something that 280 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 2: Karine Jean Pierre, the Press Secretary, spoke about at the 281 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 2: White House briefing. 282 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 8: Here she we are going to continue to promote responsible 283 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:37,680 Speaker 8: actions to protect public health, safety and security when confronted 284 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:40,520 Speaker 8: by challenges like a deadly pandemic and foreign attacks on 285 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 8: our elections. So we're going to continue to do that 286 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 8: to promote that in a responsible way. 287 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 2: Of course, a lot of this goes back to COVID 288 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 2: and misinformation around vaccines. Rick, should the White House be 289 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:52,840 Speaker 2: in the business Should it be allowed to be picking 290 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 2: up the phone and calling social media companies? And is 291 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 2: that different than news agencies when it sees something thinks 292 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:00,679 Speaker 2: is wrong. 293 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:01,679 Speaker 9: Yeah. 294 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 6: I mean it's a really tricky question because you can 295 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 6: certainly carve out things like misinformation on vaccines and say, oh, absolutely, 296 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:13,000 Speaker 6: it's in the public health interest and that's a uniquely 297 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:17,640 Speaker 6: federal government responsibility. The problem is it never ends there, right, 298 00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 6: I mean, you know, the most practical thing is to say, yeah, 299 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 6: that's the only instance that we should have that kind 300 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 6: of dialogue, because it will likely be turned into interference 301 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 6: on other issues at some point down the road. Because 302 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:34,400 Speaker 6: we know government really doesn't know how to restrict itself, 303 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 6: and so I think it's a really cautionary tale, and 304 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 6: it goes right back to some of the debates we've 305 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 6: had on this show around Capitol Hill doing something about 306 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 6: regulating these entities. And until something is done on Section 307 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 6: two thirty or one of the other editorial regulations that 308 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 6: could govern the social media groups, then you're going to 309 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:56,680 Speaker 6: run into these kinds of problems. 310 00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:58,840 Speaker 2: That's right, Genie Brick just put his finger on it, 311 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 2: and that was my question for you. Does this not 312 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 2: come back to Section two thirty in the need for reform? 313 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 7: It can, but I also think this is slightly different. 314 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 7: You know, this judge's decision is really interesting. It's one 315 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 7: hundred and fifty five pages. And you know, there is 316 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 7: a way, as you go back to the early nineteen nineties, 317 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 7: the Supreme Court has long held that the government cannot 318 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 7: discriminate against people given a point of view. It's called 319 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 7: viewpoint discrimination. It's unconstitutional unless the government can show it 320 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 7: has a compelling interest for doing so, and it does 321 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 7: so in the least restrictive means. So there is a 322 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 7: way in which they can do this. But calling up 323 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:42,240 Speaker 7: social media companies willy nilly, telling them to strip things, 324 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 7: or not put them on a server, or not forward 325 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 7: them to people's friends on Facebook and Meta and elsewhere, 326 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 7: is not the least restrictive means. So I'm not sure 327 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 7: this requires a Section two thirty, although I'm not opposed 328 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 7: to that. I think there is a means. It is 329 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 7: built into a nineteen ninety one Supreme Court decision. The 330 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 7: judge makes that case. The government has to show a 331 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 7: compelling reason, and the least restrictive means. Anybody who believes 332 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:09,160 Speaker 7: in free speech should believe that that is the right 333 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 7: way to proceed. 334 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:12,200 Speaker 2: To see different than a news organization, Jennie, if they 335 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:13,840 Speaker 2: called Bloomberg and said, hey, I don't like the way 336 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 2: you said that, Joe, this is we gotta we got 337 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 2: to take another swing at it. 338 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 7: Well, you know, it is different. Obviously, these are social 339 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 7: media companies. So this is you know, one person going 340 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 7: on speaking to as many people as they can hear. 341 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 7: But we don't have a right, you know, as people 342 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 7: to call it Bloomberger, to call it CBS or anybody 343 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 7: else and tell them what to put out there. And 344 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 7: the government should not have a right to do that either, 345 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 7: unless again, they can show they have a compelling reason 346 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 7: that's usually to rixpoint, health safety, welfare, national security, and 347 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 7: they do it in the least restrictive means, because one 348 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 7: thing in a democracy you don't want to do is 349 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 7: you do not want to throw cold water on a 350 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 7: variety of speech. Let it get out there, let people talk, 351 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:56,920 Speaker 7: unless there's a real interest in restricting it. And I 352 00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 7: think those reasons have got We've got to keep up 353 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 7: with that, regardless social media or traditional media. 354 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:05,879 Speaker 2: I've got an update on the cocaine. I haven't had 355 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 2: a chance to talk to you guys about this, and 356 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:10,879 Speaker 2: I wasn't planning to, by the way, but this just 357 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:15,920 Speaker 2: cleared news from the White House. NBC News reporting quote 358 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:19,920 Speaker 2: multiple officials involved in the White House cocaine inquiry now 359 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:21,920 Speaker 2: say the bag of powder was found in a cubby 360 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:26,440 Speaker 2: near the White House's West Executive entrance. You guys know where. 361 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 2: That is not the formal West Wing lobby as was 362 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 2: previously reported. So we are eliminating some folks from the 363 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:37,399 Speaker 2: pool here. Karine Jean Pierre again the Press secretary, spoke 364 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:39,520 Speaker 2: to the effort to get to the bottom of this, 365 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 2: but specifically about the location, at least where we thought 366 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 2: it was. 367 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:48,680 Speaker 8: Where this was discovered is a heavily traveled area where 368 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 8: many white West Wing I should be even more specific, 369 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:56,679 Speaker 8: West Wing visitors come through this particular area. I just 370 00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:59,240 Speaker 8: don't have anything more to share. It is under investigation. 371 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:01,479 Speaker 2: It was not in the lobby rick. It was the 372 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:05,840 Speaker 2: West Executive entrance. And you need to have business to 373 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 2: go through that door, don't you. Yeah, this is the 374 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:08,960 Speaker 2: staff door. 375 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:11,120 Speaker 6: This is where if you're going back and forth from 376 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 6: the old Executive Office building to the West Wing, this 377 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:15,359 Speaker 6: is the door you go in and out of. 378 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 2: And this is the door. 379 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 6: And I've done this a million times when I was 380 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 6: in a White House, where you bring in your guests 381 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 6: to give them the quote private backstage tour or the 382 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 6: west and when the president is gone that you're allowed 383 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 6: to do that. And so over the weekend when the 384 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 6: President was in Camp David, you know, staff were bringing 385 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 6: people through there and giving them their own personal tour. 386 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 6: It is not a heavily traveled place. 387 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 2: It's only traveled. 388 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:42,400 Speaker 6: By, you know, people who have access to the West. 389 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 2: Wing, and you don't count those in a thousand. 390 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,680 Speaker 6: So I don't exactly know what the Press secretary was 391 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 6: trying to convey that way. 392 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 2: Well, you know, maybe she learned that, you know, this 393 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 2: was not where they thought initially they was thought to 394 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 2: be the West Wing lobby, could be anybody there, Genie. 395 00:18:57,640 --> 00:18:59,879 Speaker 2: Now it's sounding like they might actually be able to 396 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 2: fiure out who this was. 397 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 7: Yeah, you think they would be able to at the 398 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:06,400 Speaker 7: White House? I have to say words I never thought 399 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:08,639 Speaker 7: i'd hear you say, Joe, we've got an update on 400 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:11,399 Speaker 7: that cocaine that just has struck with me, stuck. 401 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 2: With me rather thank you for noting. 402 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:13,360 Speaker 5: Yeah. 403 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:16,639 Speaker 7: Yeah, but you know, they say heavily trafficked. I agree 404 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 7: with Rick. If it is heavily traffic, that's a bit 405 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 7: of a problem. We all know it's not heavily traffic. 406 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 7: And let's hope that there are cameras there and they're 407 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 7: able to get to the bottom of this, because as 408 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:28,840 Speaker 7: far as I know, not just anybody can waltz in 409 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:31,200 Speaker 7: and out of that area, and hopefully they're not able 410 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:33,760 Speaker 7: to Otherwise we have an even bigger security problem at 411 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:34,639 Speaker 7: the White House. 412 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 1: Than any of it. 413 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 2: It's also a great point, but as Rick's aid it, thought, 414 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:39,439 Speaker 2: I mean, you've got to be you've got to have 415 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:41,720 Speaker 2: business there. You have to have a reason to go there, 416 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:43,479 Speaker 2: and if you're a guest of a White House official 417 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:44,400 Speaker 2: who's bringing. 418 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 1: You in there? 419 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:47,359 Speaker 2: These are pretty important people in the Secret Service knows 420 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 2: who they are. That's another thing people don't assume with 421 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 2: the White House. And if you work there, you're like 422 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:53,879 Speaker 2: on a first name basis with the Secret Service. You 423 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:56,200 Speaker 2: see them every day. But I digress. We'll let you 424 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 2: know when we learn more. 425 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Sound On podcast. Catch us 426 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 1: live weekdays at one Eastern on Bloomberg dot com, the 427 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:07,920 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, and the Bloomberg Business App, or listen on 428 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 1: demand wherever you get your podcasts. 429 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:14,399 Speaker 2: President Biden back on the road today South Carolina's outing 430 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:19,159 Speaker 2: his economic accomplishments that most Americans, at least according to Poles, 431 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 2: do not think very highly of, leading many of us 432 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 2: to wonder does he stick with the same message or 433 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 2: is it time to change the approach with us to 434 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:31,240 Speaker 2: discuss this, among other big ideas, is Carly Fiorina, the 435 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 2: former CEO of Hewlett Packard, founder and chaff Carly Fiorina 436 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:39,640 Speaker 2: Enterprises and Unlocking Potential, of course, former Republican presidential candidate. 437 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:42,359 Speaker 2: Along with Bloomberg's David Weston, the host of Wall Street 438 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 2: week back for our recurring conversation here about leadership. Welcome 439 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:47,960 Speaker 2: to both of you. It's one that we look forward 440 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:50,120 Speaker 2: to always. And David, the idea of doing the same 441 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 2: thing over and over again without getting results is said 442 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:55,359 Speaker 2: to be the definition of insanity. We can argue about 443 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:58,880 Speaker 2: that or not. But Carly's new column is titled driving Change, 444 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:01,960 Speaker 2: which is the scary part of leadership, isn't it. 445 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:05,360 Speaker 9: That's certainly my experience, which is not the same as Carly's. 446 00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:07,359 Speaker 9: But I certainly have been scared and I've driven. But 447 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:09,959 Speaker 9: I think your analogy is apt. Right now, as we 448 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 9: hear President Biden once again talking about Bidenomics, which he 449 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 9: certainly wants us to believe his change, as he keeps 450 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:19,159 Speaker 9: talking about bottom up and middle out as a different 451 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:22,320 Speaker 9: approach to economics. He's been selling this and he hasn't 452 00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:25,359 Speaker 9: had entire success in terms of the numbers, that is 453 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:27,919 Speaker 9: to say, the approval, although when we look back at 454 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:29,880 Speaker 9: President Reagan, as you know, back in nineteen eighty three, 455 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 9: he had sort of a similar situation. But Carly, I 456 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 9: wonder from your point of view you wrote this column 457 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 9: on driving change and what's required and how you pick 458 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 9: your spots, how important is it that people perceive that 459 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 9: you're succeeding in the change, not just that. 460 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:43,920 Speaker 1: You are succeeding. 461 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:47,679 Speaker 10: Well, it's a great question and great to be with 462 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:50,600 Speaker 10: you again, Joe and David. So first let me say 463 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:54,480 Speaker 10: whatever you think of Bidens, whatever you think of the program. 464 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:59,639 Speaker 10: In fairness, the president has actually only just begun talking 465 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,679 Speaker 10: about this. He hasn't spent a lot of time campaigning, 466 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 10: and he hasn't spent a lot of time explaining his 467 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 10: program and his accomplishments for the American people. I start 468 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 10: with that because one of the critical factors in successful 469 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 10: change is communication over and over and over and over, 470 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 10: and particularly David to your question, communication about what's working, 471 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:26,680 Speaker 10: what have we done, and what's working that has credibility 472 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 10: if at the same time a leader will acknowledge and 473 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 10: by the way, here are the things we have left 474 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 10: to do. But it's critically important that communication go on 475 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:43,359 Speaker 10: over and over and over consistently over time. Here's what 476 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:46,800 Speaker 10: we've done, here's why, here's how we know it's working. 477 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:50,720 Speaker 10: Here's what we have left to do. So presumably Biden's 478 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:53,639 Speaker 10: going to keep doing this from now until the election. 479 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:58,240 Speaker 2: And is that the wrong thing? Carly because I think 480 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:00,680 Speaker 2: you're also saying that change for the sake of change 481 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:03,959 Speaker 2: is also not leadership. So does he need if, to 482 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 2: your point, he's just getting out there starting to beat 483 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 2: the drum, he needs to stick with this for a while. 484 00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 10: Well, I think he does only because again, whatever you 485 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 10: think of the programs, what the data says, what the 486 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 10: polls say, is that consumers voters don't really understand what 487 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:25,879 Speaker 10: he's done. They're not really aware of what he's done, 488 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 10: and in particular, they don't really connect it up to 489 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:32,560 Speaker 10: their own lives. And so the story that he has 490 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 10: to tell is number one, informational, Here's what I've done, 491 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 10: and then number two, make the connection for people, here's 492 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:43,639 Speaker 10: why it matters to you now. Of course, if people 493 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:47,119 Speaker 10: don't see it in their lives, if the connection seems false, 494 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 10: then over time it's probably not going to be very successful. 495 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:57,159 Speaker 10: But for example, this big re building project in Philadelphia 496 00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:00,400 Speaker 10: after ninety five collapse, the fact that that got done 497 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 10: so quickly, I think he is pouting that as part 498 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:07,479 Speaker 10: of his infrastructure bill. That's an example people can see, 499 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:11,359 Speaker 10: and he needs as many examples like that that is 500 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:13,680 Speaker 10: very tangible as he can get. 501 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 9: Boy Joe, it really sounds right to me that you 502 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 9: have to actually see tangible results in your life. But 503 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:21,120 Speaker 9: I wonder, Joe, from your point of view in Washington, 504 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:23,960 Speaker 9: does he have time to get that done because he 505 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:25,639 Speaker 9: has his chips and science acts. There are gonna be 506 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 9: a lot of construction of new fabs and things like that. 507 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:30,119 Speaker 9: But how long is it going to be before people 508 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:30,639 Speaker 9: really see that? 509 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:31,000 Speaker 1: Joe. 510 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:33,760 Speaker 2: Well, it's a great point because it's you know, it's 511 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 2: it's framed as a generational investment, which is wonderful for 512 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:39,320 Speaker 2: the country if that's true, but not great if you're 513 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:44,159 Speaker 2: running for reelection a year from now, because yes, there 514 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:46,679 Speaker 2: seems to be this effort to continue reminding people of 515 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,919 Speaker 2: what's been done. And you know, as you remember David 516 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 2: during Obamacare Barack Obama coming out of that was that 517 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:55,919 Speaker 2: was a brutal debate and it made it very difficult 518 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,440 Speaker 2: for him to get anything else done on Capitol Hill 519 00:24:58,440 --> 00:24:59,639 Speaker 2: in that term. And he said, you know, my one 520 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 2: regred that was we didn't do the salesmanship part. We 521 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:05,560 Speaker 2: didn't travel the country to remind everybody what we had done. 522 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:08,239 Speaker 9: Yeah, it's a really good point about homecare because they 523 00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:10,879 Speaker 9: just needed to wait longer and I wonder, Carly, how 524 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:13,480 Speaker 9: long can you wait as a leader to really see 525 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:16,040 Speaker 9: the results before it starts to take hold, Because when 526 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:18,160 Speaker 9: you announce change, it doesn't happen overnight. 527 00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:22,680 Speaker 10: Well that's right, but that is why you must prepare 528 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:29,639 Speaker 10: people through appropriate metrics, through relying on your allies to 529 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 10: carry the message for you. You must be able to 530 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:38,199 Speaker 10: show progress, not completion, but progress. And it's why, in 531 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:42,240 Speaker 10: many ways, successful change requires starting with the easy things, 532 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,199 Speaker 10: not the hard things, so that people can start to 533 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:49,199 Speaker 10: see results more quickly. I will say this, gentleman, I 534 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 10: do think that all the data also says that Americans 535 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:58,199 Speaker 10: are tired of the polarization. If I were Biden or 536 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 10: advising Biden, I spend a lot of time talking about 537 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:06,119 Speaker 10: the fact that the Chips Act, the Infrastructure Act, the 538 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:10,520 Speaker 10: overcoming the debt ceiling, impat that all of these were 539 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 10: bypartis and accomplishment, that every single one of the things 540 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 10: had support across the aisle. Because I actually think it's 541 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:21,719 Speaker 10: one of the strongest selling points he has, and I 542 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 10: think Americans appreciate that they may not be primary voters, 543 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:29,359 Speaker 10: which as we know, are more polarized voters generally, but 544 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:31,960 Speaker 10: they certainly are general election voters. 545 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:37,240 Speaker 2: Which brings me to this great sentence. It's so efficient, Carly. 546 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:43,439 Speaker 2: Prioritization and sequencing matter, and Carly goes on to right, 547 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 2: if too much is attempted too soon, failures will occur. 548 00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:49,840 Speaker 2: That's the keep it slow and steady pace we're seeing 549 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:50,960 Speaker 2: from this president right now. 550 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,960 Speaker 10: Yes, prioritization matters. It's why you start, as I just said, 551 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,720 Speaker 10: you start with the easy things, not the hard things, 552 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:02,159 Speaker 10: so that you can show oh progress, build confidence and 553 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 10: trust as you continue to move forward. It's why Obamacare, 554 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,879 Speaker 10: I think became a problem because it was so big, 555 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 10: so complicated, so huge, and it'sok, a long time to 556 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 10: pay off. 557 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,239 Speaker 2: Well, it just seems so simple when you write it. 558 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:21,440 Speaker 2: It's carrying it out in action is a whole different thing. Carly, 559 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:24,880 Speaker 2: Thanks as ever, Carly Fiorina and our friend David Weston. 560 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 2: I'm Joe Matthew in Washington. This is Bloomberg. 561 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,679 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Sound on podcast. Catch the 562 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 1: program live weekdays at one Eastern on Bloomberg Radio, the 563 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 1: tune in app, Bloomberg dot Com, and the Bloomberg Business App. 564 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:43,000 Speaker 1: You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our 565 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:47,480 Speaker 1: flagship New York station. Just say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven thirty. 566 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:52,200 Speaker 2: You keep hearing AI is going to change the way 567 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 2: politicians campaign as soon as this cycle right, generating new 568 00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:00,760 Speaker 2: strategies to reach voter It's just a matter of harnessing technology. 569 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,399 Speaker 2: But Miami Mayor Francis Suarez is not waiting around. A 570 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:08,159 Speaker 2: super pac supporting his Republican presidential campaign called s O 571 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 2: s America is out with an AI chatbot to answer 572 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 2: questions about the mayor. The bot introduces itself in video 573 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:19,640 Speaker 2: form as Mayor Suarez. 574 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:19,880 Speaker 8: Hi. 575 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 11: I'm AYI Francis Suarez. You've probably heard that my namesake, 576 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:27,040 Speaker 11: conservative Miami Mayor Francis Suarez is running for president. I'm 577 00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:29,399 Speaker 11: here to answer questions you may have about Mayor Suarez 578 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:31,440 Speaker 11: has proven agenda for economic prosperity. 579 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:33,160 Speaker 2: So we thought we'd take it out for a drive. 580 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:35,400 Speaker 2: Asked the bought a couple questions. How do you beat 581 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:36,119 Speaker 2: Donald Trump? 582 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 11: The rule of law and order has more than dissolved 583 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,720 Speaker 11: under Joe Biden's administration. It has been turned on its 584 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 11: head to serve the special interests of the Bidens and 585 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:47,240 Speaker 11: other DC politicians. 586 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 2: Happy to see you again, I Hi, Uh, when are 587 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 2: you coming on for an interview? 588 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 11: Conservative Miami Mayor Francis Suarez is leadership has transformed Miami 589 00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 11: into a city that's thriving economic Hey, happy to see 590 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:00,720 Speaker 11: you again, and how can I help? 591 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:03,120 Speaker 2: How much money did you raise in the last quarter. 592 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:08,160 Speaker 11: Conservative Miami Mayor Francis Suarez Is leadership has transformed Miami 593 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:11,040 Speaker 11: into a city that's thriving economics not an answer. Hey, 594 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:12,600 Speaker 11: happy to see you again. How can I help? 595 00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:15,120 Speaker 2: Will you be at the debate in August? 596 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:17,760 Speaker 11: The rule of law and order has more than dissolved 597 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:21,080 Speaker 11: under Joe Biden's administration. It has been turned on its 598 00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:23,480 Speaker 11: head to serve the special interest to the Biden and 599 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 11: other one more. I'm happy to see you again. How 600 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:25,960 Speaker 11: can I help? 601 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:26,080 Speaker 1: Oh? 602 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:29,720 Speaker 2: Hi, will you vow to support the Republican nominee in 603 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 2: twenty twenty four? 604 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 11: The rule of law and order has more than dissolved 605 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 11: under Joe Biden's administration. 606 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:36,040 Speaker 2: But that's not the question. 607 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 11: It has been turned on its head. Hey, happy to 608 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:39,320 Speaker 11: see you again. How can I help? 609 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:39,960 Speaker 1: Well? 610 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 2: Is Miami still the crypto capital? 611 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:45,800 Speaker 11: Listen? They don't call Conservative Miami Mayor Francis Suarez the 612 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:47,480 Speaker 11: bitcoin mayor. Just for the heck of it. 613 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:47,840 Speaker 2: Okay. 614 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:51,560 Speaker 11: Mayor Suarez has been a staunch advocate for cryptocurrency for 615 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:55,360 Speaker 11: a while now, even accepting his salary and bitcoin. Mayor 616 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:58,400 Speaker 11: Suarez led Miami to become the nation's leading innovative and. 617 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 2: Is he still getting bitcoin? I need more time with 618 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:07,600 Speaker 2: the bot. Don't worry. Pretty soon it'll be me speaking 619 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:13,400 Speaker 2: as a chatbot. Thanks for listening to the Sound On podcast. 620 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 2: Make sure to subscribe if you haven't already, at Apple, Spotify, 621 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 2: and anywhere else you get your podcasts. And you can 622 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:22,080 Speaker 2: find us live every weekday from Washington, DC at one 623 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:26,440 Speaker 2: pm Eastern Time at Bloomberg dot com.