1 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:09,200 Speaker 1: Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: We're tough on the younger generations, I admit it. They 3 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:16,160 Speaker 1: just seem so inept. 4 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 2: A lot of the time. 5 00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:21,919 Speaker 1: They post stuff about quote adulting, and it's just ridiculous 6 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:24,759 Speaker 1: stuff that they don't know how to do, like mail 7 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 1: a letter or register to vote or something. I saw 8 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: one the other day that I actually felt bad for him. Here, 9 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 1: let's roll it. 10 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:34,240 Speaker 3: Somebody please tell me why. I just got back from 11 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 3: somebody's house and they didn't have any of their curtains up, 12 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 3: and they were like, don't mind me just washing the curtains? What? 13 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 3: And you know, I didn't want to look dumb, you know, 14 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:48,559 Speaker 3: so I was like, Hey, when that happens, are we 15 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:49,640 Speaker 3: supposed to be doing that? 16 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:51,200 Speaker 4: How often? 17 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 3: Why are we washing them? How often are we supposed 18 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:56,360 Speaker 3: to do that? And what other adult thing do I 19 00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 3: not know because I'm at my max adulting. 20 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:01,720 Speaker 1: I don't have curtains, and I don't think I ever have. 21 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 1: But I didn't know you were supposed to watch them either. 22 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:07,399 Speaker 1: I think actually the reason I don't have them is 23 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:10,320 Speaker 1: sort of a germophobe, and I just find heavy material 24 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: hanging around to be a collector of dust and dirt. 25 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 1: You know, kind of gross. But I digress. We've all 26 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 1: read the think pieces about how millennials and now Gen 27 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:23,039 Speaker 1: Z don't know how to do adulting as a verb. 28 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 1: Our next step needs to actually be to do something 29 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 1: about a generation of people and the generation behind them, 30 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:32,600 Speaker 1: who don't know how to live in the adult world. 31 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:36,080 Speaker 1: We need to bring back useful classes in our schools 32 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 1: that will teach the necessary life skills to young people. 33 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 1: I hear from parents all the time about how their 34 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 1: kids are just not functioning and they've hit you know, 35 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 1: twenty twenty five, thirty, and they don't know how to 36 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:49,440 Speaker 1: do basic things. 37 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 2: Kids used to take classes like shop. 38 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 1: And home economics, where they learned woodwork and cooking and 39 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 1: other things. It wasn't considered condescending to teach them these 40 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 1: basic skills which allow them to function as more competent 41 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 1: adults outside of school. Perhaps previous generations were able to 42 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 1: adult better because their parents and teachers took the time 43 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 1: to show them how to do it. We've talked about 44 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:16,800 Speaker 1: these generations also lacking social skills, and millennials and the 45 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 1: younger generations after them they have no real social skills 46 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 1: because they have limited social interactions. Social media has made 47 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 1: people so withdrawn from others that you know, some studies 48 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 1: show a full twenty percent of young people reporting they 49 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:33,520 Speaker 1: have no friends at all. They're the first generation that 50 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:36,240 Speaker 1: grew up on the internet. It makes sense that their 51 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:38,800 Speaker 1: social skills aren't where they should be. And you know, 52 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 1: we tisk tisk at them, but we stare at our 53 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:43,840 Speaker 1: own phones and we should be teaching them some lessons instead. 54 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 1: People also used to take etiquette classes, sometimes at their 55 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 1: actual school, to teach them things like table manners and 56 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:53,519 Speaker 1: how to answer the phone. Times have changed and it's 57 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:56,080 Speaker 1: less important now to know which fork. 58 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 2: To use at dinner. 59 00:02:56,880 --> 00:02:59,399 Speaker 1: And you know, nobody has a communal home phone anymore. 60 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 1: But they teaching kids how to behave in society should 61 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:04,959 Speaker 1: still be done. Look, parents are busy. 62 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 2: I get it. 63 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 1: I'm busy, and that's often the real reason why young 64 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:12,240 Speaker 1: people can't manage healthy adulthood. No one is at home 65 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 1: to teach them how to do it. It's not a 66 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 1: judgment on household with two working parents. I mean again, 67 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 1: we are a family of too working parents. But it 68 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:24,360 Speaker 1: is an explanation of why younger people have such a 69 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:27,959 Speaker 1: hard time functioning. If your kid hits eighteen and doesn't 70 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 1: know how to mail a letter, it's very likely because. 71 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 2: You haven't taught them. 72 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 1: So much of what we do should be reprioritized around 73 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 1: helping our kids become functioning adults who can do the 74 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 1: you know, adulting. We get caught up in other minutia 75 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 1: and don't work enough to produce capable people who can 76 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 1: do basic tasks. Make it a habit to teach your 77 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 1: kids one new task every few days, or explain something 78 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 1: boring like yes, how washing curtains gets done, and then 79 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 1: explain it to me because I don't get it either. 80 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:00,840 Speaker 1: Coming up next an interview with Mark kemingh Join us 81 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 1: after the break. Hi, and welcome back to the Carol 82 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 1: Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio. My guest today is Mark Hemingway. 83 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 1: Mark is a senior writer at Real Clear Investigations and 84 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:18,719 Speaker 1: an editor at The Federalist. Thank you so much for being. 85 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 4: On, Mark, Hey, thanks for having me on. 86 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 1: I'm going to start with something that I've mentioned to 87 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 1: you in the past, but I am very wowed by 88 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: your kids. You have two teenage girls. They are smart, kind, responsible, 89 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 1: but also like funny, real people. 90 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 2: They're not just like you know, perfect robots. 91 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 1: They're really wonderful and they're just really good and it's obvious. 92 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:43,599 Speaker 2: So how did you do it? 93 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 5: Ah, well, that's a really good question, I am when 94 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 5: I figure that out. You know, I should probably write 95 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:52,720 Speaker 5: a book about it. Yes, very very kind of you 96 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:55,279 Speaker 5: just say that about my kids, and that's sad that 97 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:57,720 Speaker 5: you know my kids. Your kids are wonderful as well. 98 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 5: I think that, but. 99 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:01,039 Speaker 2: I would say see that. 100 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 1: The thing is that, like I think, I agree, I 101 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:07,040 Speaker 1: think my kids are good. But that's why I think I'm. 102 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:08,559 Speaker 2: Just extra wowed by your kids. 103 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 1: I think that they're fantastic, and I you know, I 104 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:12,599 Speaker 1: feel like I have a barometer for that. 105 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:16,239 Speaker 4: Well, yeah, maybe so, And it is true. 106 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 5: I would say that something a switch kind of flipped, 107 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:21,480 Speaker 5: I think in the last ten or twenty years. I mean, 108 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 5: I think culturally it was actually going back further than that, 109 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:29,800 Speaker 5: because the sort of homeschooling classical education revival really happened 110 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:32,920 Speaker 5: in the in sort of the mid nineties. And that's 111 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 5: for a lot of reasons. I mean, there was a 112 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:38,159 Speaker 5: lot of cultural factors that led to that, and you know, 113 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:40,039 Speaker 5: it was also the internet coming online. You know, you 114 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 5: just school or something like that, Like curricular materials and 115 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 5: things like that, we're very you know, hard to obtain. 116 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:49,600 Speaker 5: You'd be like ordering from some dodgy catalog and you 117 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:51,800 Speaker 5: wouldn't be sure you can like the materials until you've 118 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:52,800 Speaker 5: got them or whatever. 119 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:53,720 Speaker 4: It was. 120 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:56,480 Speaker 5: Education was a much more complicated process, and the reality 121 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 5: is that until you start getting into the later stages 122 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:04,040 Speaker 5: of high school, education is not rocket science. And I 123 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:07,359 Speaker 5: think that what a lot of parents in our situation, 124 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:10,479 Speaker 5: that people that are attuned to what's going on in 125 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 5: the culture, you know, brought more broadly in terms of 126 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:16,159 Speaker 5: being concerned about the values and the direction of politics 127 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:18,600 Speaker 5: and things like that. My wife and I just put 128 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 5: a lot of effort into making sure our kids got 129 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:23,920 Speaker 5: a proper education, aside from the fact that I think 130 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 5: that we both came from good moral backgrounds on our own. 131 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:28,080 Speaker 5: But you know, both my wife and I went to 132 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 5: public schools. You know, nobody ever thought anything of it. 133 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:33,440 Speaker 5: You know, I went to public university as well, and 134 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:35,600 Speaker 5: I look back on a lot of that experience in 135 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:37,920 Speaker 5: the nineties when I was you know, going to high 136 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:40,960 Speaker 5: school and college, and it was pretty horrifying in a 137 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:42,359 Speaker 5: lot of ways. You know, there was a lot of 138 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 5: degeneracy and other things like that, and not that I 139 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 5: was always on the straight and narrow path in that 140 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:49,599 Speaker 5: regard or even you know, cared that much about it. 141 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 5: But when I look back at it, I think, oh, 142 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:54,600 Speaker 5: that was really bad. So by the time we had kids, 143 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:57,279 Speaker 5: we just decided that we were going to invest a 144 00:06:57,279 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 5: lot in their education in particular, and we were fortunately 145 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 5: a few things. For seventeen years, I was on the 146 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:08,600 Speaker 5: board of my Lutheran Church's classical school, which you know, 147 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 5: over the course of my I was actually on the 148 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 5: board of the school because before we ever been married 149 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 5: and had kids, just as a member of the congregation. 150 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 5: So I got really invested in education early in terms 151 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 5: of what worked in terms of curriculum, what the right 152 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 5: environment for your kids should be, and that sort of thing. 153 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 5: And so they went to a classical school K through 154 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 5: eight at my my Lutheran Church and now they're in 155 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 5: a wonderful opus day run Catholic all girls high school 156 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 5: that is just a remarkable institution. And those and I 157 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 5: think these school the schooling in the school environment had 158 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 5: a lot to do with it. They were taught like 159 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 5: very correct principles, you know, they were taught things like 160 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 5: informal logic and how to spot fallacies and things that, 161 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 5: like they just don't teach in public schools anymore. Like 162 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 5: and then of course, you know, I think really education 163 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 5: is fundamentally a moral act. You know, whether it's your 164 00:07:56,760 --> 00:08:00,280 Speaker 5: education is being backed by you know, a church or 165 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 5: in particular theology, or whether it's being you know, backed 166 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 5: by you know, some sort of effort at home. You 167 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 5: have to fill that void. Like, if you're sending your 168 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 5: kid to public school, it's not that they're not getting 169 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 5: a moral or religious education. They absolutely are. It's just 170 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 5: the question is what are the morals or religion that 171 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 5: they're being taught. And if the only morality they're getting 172 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 5: in schools is global warming and anti bullying, yeah, and 173 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 5: you know, respect trans people and whatever else, then I 174 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 5: think that you're doing a disservice to children, and we're 175 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 5: seeing the fruits of that. 176 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:34,840 Speaker 2: Yeah. 177 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:38,679 Speaker 1: I fully agree they're being filled in with some values. 178 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 1: It's just which ones are they. And if you're not, 179 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:44,560 Speaker 1: you know, corresponding to those values at home, you should 180 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 1: get them out of that educational setting. 181 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:47,560 Speaker 2: I think that's so important. 182 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 1: So you also have one of the best marriages I've 183 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:53,319 Speaker 1: ever seen you and your wife hold hands. 184 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 2: Everywhere you go. It's clear that you really like each other. 185 00:08:57,000 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 2: So how do you keep that going? 186 00:08:59,040 --> 00:08:59,160 Speaker 3: Uh? 187 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:02,680 Speaker 2: Wow, I know I'm going to start with some easy questions. 188 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:06,959 Speaker 5: Well, I mean, I think the answer is to take 189 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 5: my long winded answer on on education and kids and 190 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 5: distill that down and applies to this. The short answer is, 191 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 5: you have put a lot of thought into it. I 192 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 5: also think that though just there's a couple of things 193 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 5: there though with the marriage one, are there some things 194 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 5: that like, I just it's hard to take credit for 195 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:32,840 Speaker 5: in the sense that oh, go ahead, No, I just 196 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 5: mean that there's there's some providence involved, you know, and 197 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 5: the divine or otherwise, you know. I people, it's to 198 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:46,599 Speaker 5: to paraphrase Harvey Dent, you either die a hero or 199 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 5: you live long enough that people ask you to give 200 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 5: young people advice. And I'm like, I'm at this stage 201 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 5: when life where people are constantly asking me to come 202 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:55,720 Speaker 5: talk to kids, and like, this is one of these 203 00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:58,080 Speaker 5: things where if I'm talking to young kids, I always 204 00:09:58,200 --> 00:09:59,679 Speaker 5: I don't care what the topic is. I don't care 205 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 5: that they asked me to talk about journalism. I talk 206 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:03,840 Speaker 5: to them about Hey, what are you doing to get 207 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:05,599 Speaker 5: squared away, to get married and have a family and 208 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 5: do all the things that are going to sustain you 209 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 5: and make you happy in addition to these other career things, 210 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:12,080 Speaker 5: because guess what, the career isn't going to go well 211 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 5: for you if you're not taking care of the other stuff. 212 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:19,680 Speaker 5: So I think that that's focusing on that is really important. 213 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 5: So anyway, the point is is that I basically I 214 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:26,679 Speaker 5: give kids two pieces of advice, which is that if 215 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 5: you figure out what you want to do for a living, 216 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 5: and you figure out what sort of vocation you can 217 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 5: do day in and day out to you know, put 218 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:36,960 Speaker 5: a roof over your head that you enjoy doing every day, 219 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 5: and you figure out who you're going to marry and 220 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 5: who's going to make you happy and a sustained, committed, 221 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:47,679 Speaker 5: lifelong relationship. You get those two decisions right. You get 222 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:50,200 Speaker 5: those two decisions right, you can be degenerate in about 223 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:52,719 Speaker 5: twenty different ways, and things are probably going to work 224 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 5: out for you. If as long as you've got those 225 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 5: two commitments working for you. 226 00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:00,959 Speaker 1: You can probably better degenerated different It was just a 227 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:05,360 Speaker 1: case where anybody's listening and deciding on you know, don't 228 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:06,120 Speaker 1: be an alcoholic. 229 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 5: But but you know what I'm saying, you can get 230 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 5: through a lot of serious problems. And I don't care 231 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:14,280 Speaker 5: how good your marriage is or how good your career is. 232 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 5: Life's going to throw you a lot of curve balls 233 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 5: and there's gonna be a lot of things that you 234 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:22,319 Speaker 5: have to sort of overcome. And so from a very 235 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 5: early age, I like the time I was, you know, fourteen, 236 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 5: fifteen sixteen, I knew I want to be a writer. 237 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 5: I've been doing been a professional writer, interesting jobs along 238 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 5: the way. That's another story, but but that's if I 239 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 5: pursued that single mindedly, and it's worked out for me 240 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 5: and I've been very happy. And then the second thing 241 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:40,560 Speaker 5: that happened to me was my first day of my 242 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:43,560 Speaker 5: first job in Washington, DC after graduating from college in Oregon. 243 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 5: We had an all staff meeting the building. Molly walked in. 244 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 5: I literally like did like head on a swivel thing, 245 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 5: literally like I pointed to her and like that was it. 246 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:56,200 Speaker 5: Like I don't know how I knew, but I knew. 247 00:11:56,559 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 5: And people that know me and Molly would testify to 248 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 5: this and she would be correct that I have the 249 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 5: emotional attenuation of a piece of sheet rock. So I 250 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:06,080 Speaker 5: don't know, how is it that I immediately knew that 251 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:08,199 Speaker 5: she was the one when she like basically walked into 252 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:12,079 Speaker 5: a room, you know, there was a general vibe or whatever, and. 253 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 4: I quickly, you know. 254 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 5: But I should also add that that was in August 255 00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:19,559 Speaker 5: of nineteen ninety nine when I first saw her. We 256 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:22,319 Speaker 5: didn't get married n till September two thousand and six. Okay, 257 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:26,440 Speaker 5: so you know, smooth sanding all the way while. But 258 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 5: I but I, but we discovered along the way, and 259 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:33,920 Speaker 5: I think it took Molly more effort on her part 260 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:38,079 Speaker 5: to realize this than that did me. Not to say 261 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:41,640 Speaker 5: that I didn't contribute to the problems here, but we 262 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 5: had extremely similar worldviews, you know, in the sense that 263 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 5: we're both very worldly people but also very sort of 264 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 5: concerned with more morality. Like we're both people who can 265 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:55,440 Speaker 5: kind of exist in the world and all its fullness 266 00:12:55,480 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 5: and you know, degeneracy as it were, and try and 267 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 5: see a moral path through that, and hopefully, in terms 268 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:05,559 Speaker 5: of our vocation as writers, be people that can sort 269 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:08,120 Speaker 5: of illuminate that path and point out like this is 270 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:10,480 Speaker 5: what's going on. You know, you know, we can we're 271 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 5: strong enough in terms of character that we can wallow 272 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 5: in it. And I think, at the end of the day, 273 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 5: the fact that we have such a similar worldview in 274 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 5: that regard, you know, you know, it's not like we 275 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 5: agree on everything hardly right, And the other thing is 276 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 5: just simply that she's obviously brilliant, and I had never 277 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 5: met another girl who just sustained my interest so fully 278 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 5: and completely. I remember one point in one of our 279 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 5: Mary spirits that we were off. I dated this girl 280 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 5: who I had no business dating because she was so 281 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:43,560 Speaker 5: much more attractive than I deserved. But like being with 282 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:45,679 Speaker 5: her was like watching paint peel for me. I mean, 283 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 5: it was just like I couldn't do it. And Molly 284 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:51,840 Speaker 5: never a dull moment with her, as you probably imagine. 285 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, she really is amazing. You're one of my favorite writers. 286 00:13:56,679 --> 00:13:59,679 Speaker 1: I've told you this before. How did you get into it? No, 287 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 1: it's true. I mean, I you know, preparing for this interview, 288 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 1: I got to like go back and read a bunch 289 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 1: of things that you've written that I really like loved 290 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:08,719 Speaker 1: over the years. I don't know those that that one 291 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 1: from San Francisco that you wrote for The Washington Examiner 292 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 1: about like you know, being propositioned by a prostitute while 293 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:17,559 Speaker 1: at the same time, like a homeless man is I 294 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:18,680 Speaker 1: don't know, screaming into a. 295 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 2: Shoe box or something like that. 296 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 1: And then somebody another, another homeless person, tried to take 297 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 1: food off your plate at the restaurant. 298 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 2: I just you know, I just love that. 299 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 5: All really happened to me my last trip to San Francisco, 300 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 5: and that was pre pandemic. I mean, like, I you know, 301 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 5: I went from Oregon, like I, I can't begin to 302 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 5: tell you what, but uh, every web major West Coast 303 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:41,680 Speaker 5: city and how bad it is. 304 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 4: But anyway, I guess it's a story for another matter. 305 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 2: We'll get into that. 306 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 4: That's that's for the writer's stuff. I don't know what 307 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 4: to say. 308 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 5: I was, according to my mother, was very verbal from 309 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 5: a very early age, and I taught myself to read 310 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 5: well before I was in school, and I was just 311 00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 5: obsessed with books growing up. My parents are recently well educated. 312 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:06,479 Speaker 5: They both have graduate degrees. But my parents are very 313 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 5: interesting people. My dad was a retired Marine colonel who 314 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 5: was five years old living in Pearl Harbor when his 315 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 5: palm and lived all the all over the world news 316 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 5: a kid and had been all over the world in 317 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 5: the military and worked for the CIA and done all 318 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 5: this exciting stuff, even though I was raised in the 319 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 5: middle of nowhere and what was at the time pretty 320 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 5: you know, rural ish Oregon, I would say, and my mom, 321 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 5: I don't know what to say. My mother comes from 322 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 5: the most insane, eccentric family. So there was just a 323 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 5: lot of color in my life. I wouldn't describe it 324 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:42,000 Speaker 5: all as very very good. I mean, there was a 325 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 5: lot of insanity, frankly, you know, in terms of uh, 326 00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:51,280 Speaker 5: I don't know, just family drama and other things like that. 327 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 5: So as much as I hate to I hate all that, 328 00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 5: it's also true that kind of environment sort of fosters 329 00:15:58,720 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 5: creative people. 330 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 4: I think, fortunately right, And I don't know, I like I. 331 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 5: Said, I grew up in rural Oregon, and I wrote 332 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 5: a rurali ish organ like with three and a half 333 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 5: hours outside of Portland and Oregon, which is now a 334 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 5: big ski resort and a very fancy, nice place to be. 335 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 5: When I knew there was eighteen thousand people and it 336 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:18,600 Speaker 5: was there was no airport, and it was crazy. So 337 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 5: when I like, when I was in high school and 338 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:21,680 Speaker 5: you know, me and all my friends had to get 339 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 5: really creative to like basically entertain ourselves, and it was 340 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 5: always involved in creative pursuits and played in bands in 341 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 5: high school. And I just I always loved reading and 342 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 5: I was writing from a very early age. And it 343 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 5: was pretty clear I had some sort of natural talent 344 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:34,680 Speaker 5: for it. Like I'm a lot funnier in print than 345 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 5: I am in person. 346 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:38,520 Speaker 2: I think you're pretty funny in person. 347 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 5: Well, thank you, but uh, and so I just you know, 348 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:43,080 Speaker 5: it was it was, it was clear, it was easy. 349 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:46,000 Speaker 5: But I think just a lot of reading, you know, 350 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:48,120 Speaker 5: it was with an early age, and I was always 351 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:52,840 Speaker 5: attracted to creative writers, if that makes sense, Like I'm 352 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 5: not creative writing, but creative writers who are creative more creative. 353 00:16:56,920 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 5: So like I was, you know, things like I was 354 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 5: reading Hunter s. Thompson a way too early in age. 355 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 5: Things like that. You know, David Foster Wallace was a 356 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 5: big fan. I was a big fan of in college 357 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 5: and people that were doing interesting funny. 358 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, Funny I think is so important and I think 359 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 1: it's so overlooked, especially like in our political, politicized universe. 360 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 1: I think people don't try to be funny, and that's unfortunate. 361 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 5: I was just about to say that. I remember was 362 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:24,160 Speaker 5: in high school at some point and my dead head 363 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 5: sister was like, here, you'll like this, and she like 364 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 5: threw me a copy of PGR Rourke's Parliament of Whrores 365 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 5: when I was like fifteen or sixteen, And I mean, 366 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:37,480 Speaker 5: that is such a brilliant book. It's so funny, and 367 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 5: it's so quotable, and you know, it's his PGR works 368 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:44,000 Speaker 5: book on it's called a lone Humor's attempts to explain 369 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 5: the entire US government, and it's so universally true in 370 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:51,359 Speaker 5: terms of its observations about bureaucracy and other things like that. 371 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:53,919 Speaker 5: I mean, it's great, although it is funny to reread 372 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:55,720 Speaker 5: it because it was written in like nineteen eighty seven 373 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 5: and it's like, you know, can you believe the dead 374 00:17:57,920 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 5: is one billion dollars? 375 00:17:59,359 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 4: You know? 376 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:01,439 Speaker 1: Uh? 377 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 5: But uh yeah, the humor was was was really really 378 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:07,120 Speaker 5: big for me in that respect, and it's like even 379 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:10,920 Speaker 5: now I'm obsessed with humor, but like I have extremely 380 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 5: high standards for it. Like I can't just watch stand up, 381 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:14,919 Speaker 5: Like it's got to be someone. 382 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:15,400 Speaker 4: Who's really good. 383 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 2: Who's your favorite right now? 384 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:22,160 Speaker 5: That's a really good question. Shane Gillis is great, yeah, 385 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:25,639 Speaker 5: and Anthony Gizelnik just kills me, even though he's like 386 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:28,879 Speaker 5: just basically wicked. But his ability to craft jokes that 387 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 5: you don't where you don't expect the punchline is just unbelievable. 388 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 5: And of course Dave Chappelle from a literary perspective, I 389 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:36,960 Speaker 5: don't think people get what Dave Chappelle does and how 390 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 5: like insanely impressive it is because he does this thing 391 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 5: where he does what they call callbacks, where you're talking, 392 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:47,920 Speaker 5: he'll be talking about something and then like, yeah, he'll 393 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:51,720 Speaker 5: remind you. And his ability to do that so seamlessly 394 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 5: and the mind humor out of that is so sophisticated 395 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 5: and literary. Like I mean that, like, I don't know 396 00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 5: what Dave Chappelle's i Q is, but it is very high, 397 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:02,120 Speaker 5: I assure you, right if. 398 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:03,159 Speaker 2: I can give you a recommendation. 399 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 1: I don't know if you've heard of him, but Nate 400 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 1: Bergatzi is so he's just my top favorite right now. 401 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 1: And he's completely family friendly, like I didn't even realize 402 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:13,400 Speaker 1: that for the first few shows. 403 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:17,120 Speaker 2: But no cursing, no like you know, any bad imagery. 404 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 2: He's really great. 405 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:21,119 Speaker 5: My wife and daughter love him. I don't know. I 406 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 5: mean like I like I said, I have really high 407 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:25,159 Speaker 5: standage for this sort of thing. Yeah, I agree, he 408 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:28,240 Speaker 5: is very funny. It's just he's not enough for me 409 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:29,680 Speaker 5: to sit down and watch forty five. 410 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 4: Minutes of them. 411 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:33,760 Speaker 1: Oh I love him, but yeah, okay, try Tennessee kid 412 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:34,919 Speaker 1: if you okay, and. 413 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:35,959 Speaker 4: I'll check it out. 414 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:39,879 Speaker 5: But it's also true, like to some extent, people that 415 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 5: are really into humor are like non normal people. Like 416 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:45,159 Speaker 5: this is famous groutch of Marx quote about if you 417 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 5: want to make a normal person laugh, you dress someone 418 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:49,600 Speaker 5: up as an old lady and push them down the stairs. 419 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:51,440 Speaker 5: In order to make a comedian laugh, it's got to 420 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 5: be a real old lady. 421 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:55,680 Speaker 4: That's you know where. 422 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:58,160 Speaker 5: I'm at, Like, it's got to be something that's really 423 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 5: you know, not necessarily out there, but something that's like 424 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 5: really on a something that really catches you sort of 425 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 5: surprise in a surprising way. 426 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 4: Dmitri Martin is another guy I really like. 427 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 2: I had to look them up. 428 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break and be right 429 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:17,880 Speaker 1: back on the Carol Marcowitch Show. So what's the most 430 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:21,120 Speaker 1: controversial thing you've ever written and do you stand by it. 431 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:23,400 Speaker 2: So the Taylor. 432 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 4: Swift it might well be. Yeah. 433 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:30,920 Speaker 5: I wrote a piece on how the piece was headlined 434 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:33,440 Speaker 5: something like Taylor shows popular is the decline of is? 435 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:34,639 Speaker 4: What was it? 436 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 5: Something like is is the decline of Western civilization or 437 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 5: something like that. It was or is a sign of 438 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:46,879 Speaker 5: societal decline? Which, yeah, people really got worked up about that, 439 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 5: And like, strangely enough, earlier in the year, I wrote 440 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 5: a piece about how I was really frustrated that people 441 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:55,920 Speaker 5: were constantly backing in the parking spaces. 442 00:20:56,680 --> 00:20:58,479 Speaker 2: And what are they supposed to do? 443 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:00,879 Speaker 4: Knows in the parking space. 444 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I'm thinking okay, I'm thinking parallel parking. I'm 445 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:06,720 Speaker 1: still you know, New Yorker obviously parking spot. 446 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:11,639 Speaker 6: Yeah okay, And boy wow, to that backing in the 447 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:14,520 Speaker 6: parking is saying like people and to this day, like 448 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:18,359 Speaker 6: once or twice a week, people often I've never even met, 449 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 6: will come. 450 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:21,680 Speaker 1: Up I missed that one. 451 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 5: They have like really strong feelings pro or con backing 452 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 5: in the parking spaces, which is you know, and I 453 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:30,399 Speaker 5: lay out all my reasons for why, and the piece, 454 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:32,320 Speaker 5: I mean like they're you know, but you know the 455 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:35,159 Speaker 5: thing is this, anytime you stay out a position on 456 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:37,480 Speaker 5: like a controversial issue. I mean, if you're being honest, 457 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:39,639 Speaker 5: there's going to be some sort of nuances, like I 458 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 5: don't think Taylor Swift is like a complete hack or 459 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:44,120 Speaker 5: anything like that. And in fact, you know, the problem 460 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 5: is my argument wasn't that, you know, I don't understand 461 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 5: the why Taylor Swift as popular, or that I don't 462 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:51,440 Speaker 5: think she's talented at all. It's more I don't understand 463 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:54,680 Speaker 5: the level to which she's popular relative to the darth 464 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:57,200 Speaker 5: of everything else. And never mind, I do have very 465 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:00,640 Speaker 5: specific criticism of Taylor Swift and her approaches songwriting other 466 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 5: things like that, but like, I don't know, it's it's 467 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 5: weird and I don't know. I guess it goes back 468 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:07,439 Speaker 5: to like the void people are trying to fill with 469 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:10,840 Speaker 5: culture and the absence of you know, in the midst 470 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:14,159 Speaker 5: of socatal decline or having religion or you know, I 471 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:19,200 Speaker 5: don't know, you know, civil civil organizations that would that 472 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 5: they could dedicate themselves to, like people identify as Swifties 473 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:24,720 Speaker 5: more than they do you know, anything else. And it 474 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 5: ends up becoming like a religious war when you criticize 475 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:29,680 Speaker 5: Taylor Swift or how nuanced you try and be about it. 476 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:32,520 Speaker 1: Well, I kind of get that for teenagers, like my 477 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 1: thirteen year old daughter definitely into Taylor Swift. We joke 478 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 1: about it being a cult, like she waits for dear 479 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:42,199 Speaker 1: Leader to say something to her fans, and but for 480 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 1: grown ups, I'm with you, Like I don't get the 481 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 1: absolute deep, you know, fascination with a pop star's life 482 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:51,440 Speaker 1: and just what's going on with her. I think that 483 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:53,920 Speaker 1: that's like, you know, get a life a little bit. 484 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 4: So yeah, well. 485 00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 5: I'm I'm a hacked musician too, and like this is 486 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 5: another thing that just bothers me about like what she does. 487 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:04,199 Speaker 5: It's like there's a lot of sophisticated stuff going on 488 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,120 Speaker 5: in terms of productions in the Sonics, but so many 489 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:08,360 Speaker 5: of the songs are basically like literally the same chord 490 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 5: changes right, like the same you know, basic you know 491 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 5: music is happening over and over and over again with her, 492 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:16,119 Speaker 5: and like it's one of these things where once you 493 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 5: hear it, you just can't unhear it. But like people 494 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 5: are not willing to. I don't know, it's weird. Again, 495 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:24,359 Speaker 5: As a writer and someone who like takes this stuff 496 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 5: very seriously, like I invest myself, like I can't just 497 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 5: like any old stand up comic, Like I gotta like, 498 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:32,399 Speaker 5: maybe it's maybe I'm being ridiculous. Maybe I have to 499 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:35,760 Speaker 5: that I have to formulate my own sophisticated reasons for 500 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:40,520 Speaker 5: why I can or cannot defend my my my standing 501 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:43,399 Speaker 5: of this particular comedian or musical artists or whatever. But 502 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:46,639 Speaker 5: I do think it's important that people look critically at 503 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:48,639 Speaker 5: the world around them. And you know, look, I'm not 504 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 5: saying you can't just like, you know, tune into some 505 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 5: pop music and enjoy yourself or whatever. But at the 506 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:56,159 Speaker 5: end of the day, I feel like there's got to 507 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:58,640 Speaker 5: be two Culture's got to be operating on two levels. 508 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:00,399 Speaker 5: You know, There's got to be some sort of like 509 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 5: middle brow intellectual level that sustains a culture, the sort 510 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 5: of the lowbrow. 511 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 4: Stuff, if that makes sense. 512 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 5: Yeah, if you go back and you listen to pop 513 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 5: music in the eighties, you know, I mean what was 514 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:18,159 Speaker 5: going on was insanely musically sophisticated compared to now, and 515 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:19,680 Speaker 5: I you know, and I think it's just that people 516 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:20,679 Speaker 5: are getting you know, dumber. 517 00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:21,960 Speaker 4: I mean, like the Beatles. 518 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:26,920 Speaker 5: Beatles are massively, massively popular and like insanely musically sophisticated, 519 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:29,159 Speaker 5: like on bar with Bach in terms of a lot 520 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:30,359 Speaker 5: of the stuff that they were doing well. 521 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:31,439 Speaker 2: I mean, and they're still huge. 522 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:33,440 Speaker 1: It's not like people are like, oh, the Beatles suck, 523 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:35,480 Speaker 1: you know, yeah. 524 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:37,720 Speaker 5: Well no, that's that's true. But like I do worry 525 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:41,199 Speaker 5: about a generation or two out. I mean, like it 526 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 5: is very true that people have reverse engineered a lot 527 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:47,679 Speaker 5: of stuff. You know, it used to be you know, 528 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 5: I don't know, you know, culture was more culture is 529 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:55,960 Speaker 5: more fragmented now, and so I guess what that means 530 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:58,640 Speaker 5: is to the extent that there are things that rise 531 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:00,679 Speaker 5: to the top that everybody quote them quote agrees on 532 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:03,399 Speaker 5: or decides as popular, they tend to be really lowest 533 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 5: common denominator things because I don't know, back in the day, 534 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:08,439 Speaker 5: we used to complain all the time about you know, 535 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 5: various corporate distribution channels for stuff, you know, overlooking the 536 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:15,280 Speaker 5: really quality stuff and going for the dumb down stuff. 537 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:18,160 Speaker 5: But the reality was is the corporate paymasters back then, 538 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:21,360 Speaker 5: they didn't have algorithms to tell them, you know, an 539 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:24,680 Speaker 5: instant real time like Netflix or Spotify does to tell 540 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:27,159 Speaker 5: you what people are liking and what specific second of 541 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:31,200 Speaker 5: the song or movie. And so they were to some 542 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:34,040 Speaker 5: extent guessing and exposing people to stuff that they wouldn't 543 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 5: have otherwise been exposed to, whereas. 544 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:37,720 Speaker 4: Interesting point, it's all metrics. 545 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:41,040 Speaker 1: So what would you say, And I ask all of 546 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:43,880 Speaker 1: my guests this, but what would you say is our 547 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:46,760 Speaker 1: largest cultural or societal problem in America? 548 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 2: And do you think that it's solvable? 549 00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 4: Wow? 550 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:53,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean again, this is just one of the 551 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:55,160 Speaker 1: questions what's the meaning of life? 552 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:57,360 Speaker 4: While you're at it. 553 00:25:57,359 --> 00:25:58,440 Speaker 2: It gets harder from here. 554 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:05,400 Speaker 5: So well, I think basically the problem right now is 555 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:09,880 Speaker 5: that there's a spiritual crisis in the country. And I'm 556 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:13,240 Speaker 5: not saying that necessarily needs to be answered by organized religion, 557 00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:17,120 Speaker 5: but like you know, for instance, it's acute among young 558 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,359 Speaker 5: men in particular. But you know, people need reasons to 559 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 5: wake up in the morning. You know, they need to 560 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:25,840 Speaker 5: feel like they're engaged in productive work. And with a 561 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:29,240 Speaker 5: lot of the economic changes that have happened in terms 562 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:31,760 Speaker 5: of offshoring, manufacturing jobs and things like that, I mean, 563 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 5: you know, I'm sympathetic to the you know, quote unquote 564 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:38,360 Speaker 5: free market or you know, economic efficiency arguments of certain things, 565 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:39,880 Speaker 5: but at the end of the day, you know, if 566 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:43,520 Speaker 5: you're not providing sustainable jobs for people. Never mind that 567 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 5: there's all kinds of other stuff that's been going on 568 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:48,639 Speaker 5: in terms of you know the fact that these middle 569 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:52,960 Speaker 5: class jobs have all been shipped off, and you know 570 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 5: the income inequality that we're seeing, you know, in terms 571 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,160 Speaker 5: of how it's affected things like housing markets and other things. 572 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:02,000 Speaker 5: We really just need to address this sort of you know, 573 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:06,080 Speaker 5: spiritual slash work crisis. You know, people need to know 574 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:08,760 Speaker 5: what they can do to contribute society and feel good 575 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 5: about what they're doing. And it goes back to what 576 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:12,239 Speaker 5: I was saying. You know, like you can figure out 577 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 5: from an early age, you know what job you can 578 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 5: do that's going to sustain you, that you're gonna be 579 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 5: happy to do every day, and you can do that job, 580 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:22,160 Speaker 5: then you know that that solves so many problems in life. 581 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:23,400 Speaker 4: And so many. 582 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 5: People, you know, they're whether they're graduating with a liberal 583 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:31,200 Speaker 5: arts degree, you know, two hundred thousand dollars in day, yeah, 584 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:33,240 Speaker 5: and not knowing what to do or whether or not 585 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 5: they you know, grew up in a steel town when 586 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 5: the mill closed forty years ago, and don't know where 587 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:41,480 Speaker 5: to go or what to do with their life. You know, 588 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:46,120 Speaker 5: this is happening across I think all stratu of society. Actually, 589 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:48,920 Speaker 5: you know, people need good jobs and they need to 590 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:51,119 Speaker 5: like know what they can do to contribute to their communities. 591 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:53,880 Speaker 1: I've never heard that answer before, so that's a good one. 592 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:57,240 Speaker 1: We talked about, you know, your family and your work. 593 00:27:57,640 --> 00:27:59,119 Speaker 2: Do you feel like you've made it? 594 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:05,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I have zero. 595 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:09,920 Speaker 2: Complaints, zero zero complaints. 596 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 5: Well, I mean I've got lots of superficial complaints, but 597 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:14,639 Speaker 5: they're not complaints at the end of the day that 598 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:16,359 Speaker 5: I can feel good about, you know, the fact that 599 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 5: I made them through the course of the day. I mean, 600 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:22,160 Speaker 5: I have two, you know, beautiful kids that are doing 601 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:26,040 Speaker 5: very well in school and otherwise. I've been married for 602 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:28,720 Speaker 5: seventeen years to someone I'm still very much in love with, 603 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:33,399 Speaker 5: and I have a tremendous respect for. And you know, 604 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:36,480 Speaker 5: I own a home, you know, in terms of and 605 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:38,480 Speaker 5: I you know, and I have money in the bank. 606 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 5: I mean, like, I don't know what more you an 607 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:43,240 Speaker 5: American can ask for. I mean, yeah, there's a lot 608 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 5: of like nice to have things. 609 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:45,280 Speaker 3: You know. 610 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:47,160 Speaker 5: My wife and I grew up out West and we've 611 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 5: talked about, you know, maybe someday being able to get 612 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:54,080 Speaker 5: a vacation home in the mountains. But I you know, 613 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:56,560 Speaker 5: these are aspirational things, and as for the day to 614 00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:59,400 Speaker 5: day stuff, I really just don't have any sort of, 615 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,480 Speaker 5: you know, complaints. I will say that as someone whorew 616 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:04,080 Speaker 5: up in an organ and my wife grow up in Colorado, 617 00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:06,080 Speaker 5: we've been in the DC area for a long time 618 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:09,000 Speaker 5: and that presents a lot of unique challenges living here. 619 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 5: I mean, it's expensive, and you know, educating our children 620 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:14,440 Speaker 5: has been like a full time task because of the 621 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 5: surrounding environment and things like that. But I mean, at 622 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:20,960 Speaker 5: the same time, you know, my wife and I are 623 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:24,280 Speaker 5: obviously successful at what we do, and I just can't 624 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:26,080 Speaker 5: complain that things have worked out the way that they have. 625 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:28,080 Speaker 2: I love that well. 626 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:31,960 Speaker 1: I've loved talking to you, Mark, and here with your 627 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,560 Speaker 1: best tip for my listeners on how they can improve 628 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:36,240 Speaker 1: their lives. 629 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 4: Oh geez, wow. 630 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:44,080 Speaker 2: I told you it gets harder from here. 631 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 5: The best tip I could say would be to there's 632 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:52,280 Speaker 5: a lot of people will give you a lot of 633 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:55,440 Speaker 5: specific advice about you know, avoiding the Internet or this 634 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 5: and that and other things. Do as much as you 635 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:03,560 Speaker 5: can to be connected with real people and like real 636 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:05,480 Speaker 5: things that are happening in real life. 637 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:10,040 Speaker 4: If that makes sense, Yeah, I mean sort of. 638 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 5: I just mean that, like, you know, if you need 639 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:15,560 Speaker 5: to talk to someone, you know, arranged to meet them 640 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,880 Speaker 5: or call them rather than email them, you know, you know, 641 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:20,200 Speaker 5: make a human connection. 642 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 4: You know. 643 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:23,800 Speaker 5: If you can't, if there's a problem in your community 644 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:27,320 Speaker 5: or whatever, you know, go talk to your city councilman. 645 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 5: Like that's how like actual change is made, you know, 646 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 5: whereas it's so much easier to dismiss you know, this 647 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:36,320 Speaker 5: sort of you know, howling into the digital ether. 648 00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 3: Yeah. 649 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:41,040 Speaker 5: And you know, similarly, you know, get out of the house, 650 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:45,360 Speaker 5: you know, meet people, join social clubs, you know whatever. 651 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 5: You know, make a point of seeing people regularly. And 652 00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:49,800 Speaker 5: by the way, I'm telling you this because this is 653 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 5: something like I really struggle with. I mean, this is 654 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:54,080 Speaker 5: I think is the thing that particularly affects middle aged men. 655 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:56,640 Speaker 5: I'm going up to Brooklyn to see a good friend 656 00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 5: from high school this weekend. I haven't seen him in like, 657 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:03,880 Speaker 5: you know years. You know, you know, you really have 658 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:05,800 Speaker 5: to make an effort at a certain point in your life. Right, 659 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:08,520 Speaker 5: busy and I got kids and whatever else, but it's 660 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 5: really important that you make the effort not just for you, 661 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 5: but for everyone else and for the community. 662 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:16,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, I definitely agree to, you know, leaving the house, 663 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 1: leaving the internet all very important and a topic that 664 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:20,600 Speaker 1: I cover a lot on this show. 665 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for coming on. I'd love talking 666 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:27,280 Speaker 2: to you. Mark Hemingway, Let's read him wherever you can. 667 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:29,720 Speaker 2: He's just amazing and I'm a big fan. 668 00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:32,560 Speaker 4: You're way too kind, Carol, I'm a big fan of 669 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:33,120 Speaker 4: you as well. 670 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for joining us on the Carol Marcowitch Show. 671 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:38,720 Speaker 1: Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.