WEBVTT - Lewis Lapham 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:03.240 This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. 0:00:04.200 --> 0:00:08.280 Louis Lapham and Harper's Magazine are forever linked. As its 0:00:08.400 --> 0:00:11.760 editor for nearly thirty years, Lapham began each issue with 0:00:11.920 --> 0:00:16.079 notebook and essay written in his beautifully precise prose on 0:00:16.160 --> 0:00:19.640 the political and cultural climate of our times. He's been 0:00:19.640 --> 0:00:24.160 compared to Twain and to Montaigne. His expensive looking suits, 0:00:24.200 --> 0:00:29.160 complete with pocket square evoke another comparison. To sit with Lapham, 0:00:29.160 --> 0:00:32.120 you're struck with the sensation that you've stumbled onto some 0:00:32.200 --> 0:00:35.520 film noir set, and some of the stories he recounts 0:00:35.600 --> 0:00:38.440 belonged to that genre, like when he got his first 0:00:38.600 --> 0:00:42.120 job as a rookie reporter at the San Francisco Examiner. 0:00:43.360 --> 0:00:48.040 Seven reporters would lie around on couches with hats over 0:00:48.080 --> 0:00:52.800 their faces, waiting for news of a murder, and then I, 0:00:53.600 --> 0:00:56.080 as the cub, would go out to the scene of 0:00:56.080 --> 0:01:00.440 the murder with the photographer. The photographer had a speed 0:01:00.480 --> 0:01:05.360 Graflex camera, wore a shark skin suit and a loud 0:01:05.600 --> 0:01:11.759 hand painted tie, and his name was Seymour Snare Seymour 0:01:12.319 --> 0:01:17.160 and I would prowl the lower depths in order to 0:01:17.200 --> 0:01:21.200 find sensational headlines for the first edition. In those days, 0:01:21.880 --> 0:01:25.320 paper had six or seven editions, and we would do 0:01:25.400 --> 0:01:30.920 the late afternoon edition with the murder headline. And they 0:01:30.920 --> 0:01:34.039 told you I was twenty two, So you're a kid, 0:01:35.040 --> 0:01:37.800 entirely a kid. And you this was not the background. 0:01:37.880 --> 0:01:41.000 You came from a tough, working class background. No, no, 0:01:41.080 --> 0:01:43.080 And that's one of the describe where you came from 0:01:43.280 --> 0:01:46.640 when I came out of the you know, the affluent, 0:01:46.800 --> 0:01:53.520 privileged San Francisco society, San Francisco society. My my grandfather 0:01:53.640 --> 0:01:56.920 was the mayor of the city between nineteen two and 0:01:57.000 --> 0:02:00.840 nineteen forty six and wing World War Two, and he 0:02:00.880 --> 0:02:04.600 would go out on the launch to meet carriers when 0:02:04.640 --> 0:02:06.840 they would come in from the Pacific War. And I 0:02:06.840 --> 0:02:11.200 would be piped aboard with the mayor to meet Admiral 0:02:11.280 --> 0:02:18.160 Nimitz or Admiral Halsey on the bridge of the enterprise. Also, 0:02:18.440 --> 0:02:22.079 he as the mayor, presided over the Charter of the 0:02:22.200 --> 0:02:26.959 United Nations in San Francisco, and he made sure that 0:02:28.240 --> 0:02:32.119 I was excused from school to attend the plenary sessions 0:02:33.000 --> 0:02:36.440 and then he would give diplomatic cocktail parties. And I 0:02:36.440 --> 0:02:40.400 can remember at the age of ten passing Canapays to 0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:46.240 Molotov and to Stutenius and to Alger Hiss and John 0:02:46.280 --> 0:02:51.160 Foster Dallas. And then I went to boarding school in 0:02:51.200 --> 0:02:55.160 New England, and from there to Yale University and after 0:02:55.200 --> 0:03:00.040 that to Cambridge, England. At Cambridge, Lapham considered becoming a 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:03.880 history professor, but decided he wasn't cut out for the footnotes. 0:03:04.480 --> 0:03:07.400 Then he briefly toyed with acting, but realized he was 0:03:07.480 --> 0:03:10.160 only good at playing characters to whom he was sympathetic. 0:03:10.720 --> 0:03:14.720 In the end, journalism called Louis slap him says he 0:03:14.800 --> 0:03:17.520 was a precious youth. When he got back from England 0:03:17.840 --> 0:03:20.840 and took the job at the San Francisco Examiner, he 0:03:20.960 --> 0:03:24.440 had a lot to learn. I can't remember, like the 0:03:24.520 --> 0:03:26.919 first piece I ever wrote for the for the paper 0:03:27.000 --> 0:03:29.480 was in Oakland. They sent me to cover a flower 0:03:29.560 --> 0:03:32.720 show that I went to the flowers show and I 0:03:32.720 --> 0:03:39.000 wrote four thousand words and with all kinds of wonderful 0:03:39.760 --> 0:03:47.240 adjectives straight out. And the senior guy on the beat 0:03:47.280 --> 0:03:50.400 in Oakland was a man named Crowley, and he looked 0:03:50.400 --> 0:03:54.600 at me and he said, Louis, these are the most 0:03:55.160 --> 0:03:59.840 beautiful four thousand words I have ever already said, they 0:04:00.120 --> 0:04:04.480 tears in my eyes. But he said, I tell you what, 0:04:05.200 --> 0:04:10.080 why don't you see even cut it in half? Great pain? 0:04:10.880 --> 0:04:16.320 I was, you know, destroying immortal. I brought it back 0:04:16.600 --> 0:04:20.760 to Crowley, and Crowley looked at He said, Louis, I 0:04:20.760 --> 0:04:23.640 thought the first four thousand words are truly beautiful, but 0:04:23.680 --> 0:04:26.599 these are even more beautiful. But see I didn't cut 0:04:26.600 --> 0:04:30.479 in half again. And we went through this over a period. 0:04:30.640 --> 0:04:33.640 It finally came out as one paragraph. And what I 0:04:33.760 --> 0:04:38.000 learned in the newspaper business was to write on deadline, 0:04:38.120 --> 0:04:45.400 but also to trim and concision, concision and then when 0:04:45.400 --> 0:04:46.920 you and the other reason, of course to be in 0:04:46.960 --> 0:04:50.520 the newspaper business was to learn about the you know, 0:04:50.640 --> 0:04:53.560 the American democracy. I mean I didn't know how a 0:04:53.680 --> 0:04:57.000 city worked, or what politics were, or you know, I 0:04:57.400 --> 0:05:01.680 lived privileged. Why in a bubble? What were some of 0:05:01.680 --> 0:05:04.200 the first insights you had into the American political system? Form? 0:05:04.200 --> 0:05:08.039 That was? It was really about who you knew, I 0:05:08.080 --> 0:05:11.440 mean a way. It wasn't the right or wrong. It 0:05:11.560 --> 0:05:16.560 was what was the deal? What was the trade? Could 0:05:16.560 --> 0:05:20.360 we both get something out of this? It mattered that 0:05:20.400 --> 0:05:26.880 you could speak well, that you were adroit, also that 0:05:26.960 --> 0:05:31.080 you liked people. My sense of most of the politicians 0:05:31.120 --> 0:05:34.240 I've known have been that they have genuine liking for 0:05:34.600 --> 0:05:37.920 their their fellow human beings. And I mean there there 0:05:37.960 --> 0:05:44.000 exceptions such as Cheney would be a beautiful example. I 0:05:44.040 --> 0:05:47.479 mean Cheney, I think. And and the trouble with so 0:05:47.600 --> 0:05:54.800 many of the conservative politicians that have been in power 0:05:54.839 --> 0:05:59.480 of over the last thirty years is there they don't 0:05:59.520 --> 0:06:01.360 have that quality, or at least they don't seem to 0:06:01.400 --> 0:06:04.039 me to have that quality. You see, this is the 0:06:04.080 --> 0:06:11.560 difference between a democratic society is one and it is 0:06:11.600 --> 0:06:15.920 held together by mutual feeling and respect for one's fellow citizen. 0:06:17.080 --> 0:06:21.719 I hold my fellow citizen in thoughtful regard, not because 0:06:22.040 --> 0:06:24.680 he is beautiful or rich or famous, but because he 0:06:24.760 --> 0:06:28.920 is my fellow citizen. The kind of a society that 0:06:30.080 --> 0:06:36.000 gathers around a court, the kind of society that you 0:06:37.000 --> 0:06:42.840 would see in the court of either Elizabeth the First 0:06:43.240 --> 0:06:49.400 or Louis the fourteen. A court society is one where 0:06:50.240 --> 0:06:54.880 it is all about interest, It is all about hanging 0:06:54.920 --> 0:06:59.159 in the trapeze of one's connections and what it's very 0:06:59.400 --> 0:07:07.799 very cold. I mean, that's the whole move towards the 0:07:07.800 --> 0:07:14.960 resort uh communicated community. I mean the the rich the 0:07:15.800 --> 0:07:18.000 in the United States today, I mean living in a 0:07:18.040 --> 0:07:20.680 completely different world. But do you think it's always been 0:07:20.680 --> 0:07:24.360 that way? Meaning are the wealthy today different from the 0:07:24.400 --> 0:07:29.160 wealthy two generations? Three generations? I think they probably are. 0:07:29.280 --> 0:07:33.160 I mean there's always a distinction between there's always a 0:07:33.160 --> 0:07:36.520 class distinction. I mean you can there's no society in 0:07:36.560 --> 0:07:41.000 the history of mankind that hasn't been organized along some 0:07:41.560 --> 0:07:44.600 form of class distinction. I mean, we organize it in 0:07:44.680 --> 0:07:49.320 terms of money. We were doing that pretty much from 0:07:49.400 --> 0:07:53.600 the beginning. I mean, the the settlement of Plymouth in 0:07:53.600 --> 0:07:58.200 in six is a venture capital deal. It is, I 0:07:58.240 --> 0:08:03.920 mean it's backed by by merchant bankers in in London. Well, 0:08:03.960 --> 0:08:07.480 first of all, if you when you talk about people 0:08:07.520 --> 0:08:10.679 aligning themselves from the beginning on the basis of class, 0:08:11.800 --> 0:08:15.840 and I'm wondering how you've experienced that in your family, 0:08:16.000 --> 0:08:18.880 what was your father's politics to the extent you want 0:08:18.880 --> 0:08:23.800 to say, and did you differ from your family were 0:08:23.880 --> 0:08:27.160 your politics because your politics are pretty I wouldn't use 0:08:27.160 --> 0:08:30.160 the word liberal or progressive, but they're but they're candor 0:08:30.280 --> 0:08:33.200 is the watchword here. I think, yeah, no, when they 0:08:33.200 --> 0:08:37.040 disappointed in the way you know, you know, was your 0:08:37.040 --> 0:08:39.520 father a pretty open minded guy. Yes, my father had 0:08:39.559 --> 0:08:44.760 been very strongly in favor of Roosevelt two and his father, 0:08:44.840 --> 0:08:49.520 my grandfather, I want to became the mayor, was strongly 0:08:49.600 --> 0:08:56.400 conservative Republican who thought that FDR was the end of 0:08:56.400 --> 0:08:58.800 the world. Wouldn't carry a dime in his pocket right 0:08:59.520 --> 0:09:02.760 on the hand. By the time grandfather got to be 0:09:02.880 --> 0:09:07.480 mayor of San Francisco in two he ran as an 0:09:07.520 --> 0:09:10.720 independent and he was very open I mean he would 0:09:10.720 --> 0:09:15.239 pick hitchhikers up. He never had a you know, a bodyguard, 0:09:15.360 --> 0:09:19.320 He never had tinted windows. He used to like to 0:09:19.360 --> 0:09:23.640 go into the you know, saloons in San Francisco late 0:09:23.679 --> 0:09:29.000 at night. And the he wanted to get a bond 0:09:29.040 --> 0:09:35.600 issue passed to replace the street cars on Market Street 0:09:36.200 --> 0:09:40.959 with buses, and there was some resistance about that. So 0:09:41.040 --> 0:09:46.360 he put it to a bet. He said, Okay, there'll 0:09:46.360 --> 0:09:50.000 be a race. I will race from the Ferry Building 0:09:50.040 --> 0:09:54.160 to city Hall. I will write an elephant against a 0:09:54.240 --> 0:09:58.800 trolley car, and if the elephant beats the trolley car, 0:09:59.160 --> 0:10:04.120 we have the bond shoe. If not not. But he 0:10:04.240 --> 0:10:07.160 was a gambling man. So he insisted on a handicap, 0:10:07.200 --> 0:10:10.000 and the handicap was that the elephant would be allowed 0:10:10.040 --> 0:10:15.280 to go through red lights. The elephant one the bundle 0:10:15.280 --> 0:10:19.800 as you passed. Now, when you leave, uh, San Francisco 0:10:19.920 --> 0:10:23.680 three years the newspaper, Where do you go from there? 0:10:24.040 --> 0:10:25.360 I go to New York. I go from the San 0:10:25.400 --> 0:10:27.920 Francisco Examina and come to New York the Herald Tribune. 0:10:28.320 --> 0:10:32.720 How long were you there? I was there, uh two years? 0:10:32.800 --> 0:10:36.079 Write about them? First of all, I was general assignment, 0:10:36.240 --> 0:10:41.640 covered the city, the mayor crime who was the mayor? Wagner? 0:10:41.679 --> 0:10:44.400 I think? And then I was sent to the u N. 0:10:44.480 --> 0:10:47.120 I became the third correspondent over there was the u 0:10:47.280 --> 0:10:50.600 N when Kristoff was there pounding a shoe on the table, 0:10:50.679 --> 0:10:55.400 and when Castro was there carrying the chickens to Harlem. 0:10:55.440 --> 0:10:58.360 I was then sent down to write about the the 0:10:58.400 --> 0:11:04.160 Cape Canaveral first subspace shot. So you know, I did 0:11:04.200 --> 0:11:07.600 a lot of different things. So after the Herald Tribute, 0:11:07.640 --> 0:11:09.800 what did you do? There was a new magazine called 0:11:09.920 --> 0:11:13.680 USA one, and I became staff writer for the new magazine. 0:11:14.200 --> 0:11:19.160 It folded after six months. I then became a staff 0:11:19.200 --> 0:11:23.600 writer for the Saturday Evening Post, which was a big deal. 0:11:23.720 --> 0:11:27.080 In nineteen sixty three. They were still going strong. They 0:11:27.080 --> 0:11:30.640 were still going strong. I mean in nineteen sixty Life 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:35.080 and the Saturday Evening Post where the equivalent of what 0:11:35.120 --> 0:11:40.040 the networks became by the end of the sixties. If 0:11:40.080 --> 0:11:43.480 the president wanted to talk to the American people, he 0:11:43.480 --> 0:11:47.680 would either sit down with Joseph Stewart Alsop for the 0:11:47.720 --> 0:11:50.680 back page interview in the Post, or with Teddy White 0:11:50.720 --> 0:11:54.640 in the back page interview Life. That was mass media 0:11:54.920 --> 0:11:57.640 back in the time. People also, I remember my grandfather 0:11:57.720 --> 0:12:00.480 in the early sixties and either in Brooklyn, he would 0:12:00.480 --> 0:12:03.000 read five newspapers a day. There was a morning paper, 0:12:03.080 --> 0:12:06.280 there was an evening paper. New York was swimming in newspapers. 0:12:06.320 --> 0:12:08.880 There were eleven newspapers in New York in nineteen sixty 0:12:08.880 --> 0:12:11.360 when I can, including the Brooklyn Eagle, which was the 0:12:12.520 --> 0:12:16.400 best newspaper by in some people's opinion, in the all 0:12:16.440 --> 0:12:21.360 the five boroughs. So I travel all over the world 0:12:21.360 --> 0:12:24.240 for the Saturday Post. I mean, I went to did 0:12:24.280 --> 0:12:28.880 stories in California, went and spent two weeks with the 0:12:28.920 --> 0:12:35.120 Beatles and the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, and in Rishikesh. What 0:12:35.280 --> 0:12:37.440 was what was that experience like? And you encapsulate that. 0:12:37.440 --> 0:12:40.000 Where was it like hanging out with them in India? Well, 0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:42.240 did you get any time with them? No? Not really, 0:12:42.280 --> 0:12:45.280 I got I got a little time with them. The 0:12:45.280 --> 0:12:50.800 the there was something called transcendental meditation, which was all 0:12:50.840 --> 0:12:54.679 of rage in nineteen sixty seven and the Mary she 0:12:54.840 --> 0:12:59.800 was giving people mantras in you know, handing whispering them 0:12:59.800 --> 0:13:03.200 in the your ears and and the Beatles have gone 0:13:03.200 --> 0:13:06.760 there for a retreat. They needed to chill out. They 0:13:06.800 --> 0:13:09.559 needed to chill out. Being a Beatle was stressful. Stressful, 0:13:09.559 --> 0:13:13.760 I mean the oppression and all those love letters, seeing 0:13:13.800 --> 0:13:16.080 those songs. McCartney told me once that they would record 0:13:16.120 --> 0:13:19.120 four songs a day. They want to keep the studio 0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:22.280 time down to a minimum. It was expensive. They record 0:13:22.360 --> 0:13:24.000 two songs in the morning and they could have some 0:13:24.000 --> 0:13:26.000 fish and chips, smoke a cigarette, come back and do 0:13:26.040 --> 0:13:28.480 two songs in the afternoon. It was a real grind, 0:13:28.559 --> 0:13:30.800 he said, being a Beatle in the early days. But 0:13:30.800 --> 0:13:33.480 by seven or the biggest thing in the world now 0:13:33.520 --> 0:13:35.680 they're taking a little more time. I was sent to 0:13:37.160 --> 0:13:41.560 become a potent, to somehow get into the ash Ram. 0:13:41.640 --> 0:13:44.080 No press, of course, was allowed. So how how would 0:13:44.120 --> 0:13:46.400 you do that when when someone you're working for says, 0:13:47.040 --> 0:13:51.480 go get into the ash ram? How do you do that? Politics? Dealmaking? 0:13:51.920 --> 0:13:55.240 First of all, I studied. I went to California to 0:13:55.320 --> 0:14:00.520 talk to devotees of the Maharishie's a little brief so 0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:04.679 that when I got to Rishi Cash and I got 0:14:04.760 --> 0:14:08.040 in the cabin, I said, as the driver to the astra, 0:14:08.240 --> 0:14:11.080 I said to Rishi Cash, and he says, you go beatles. 0:14:11.160 --> 0:14:13.720 I said, I go beetles. And it was twelve dollars 0:14:13.760 --> 0:14:17.840 a hundred and twelve miles the days. And then I 0:14:17.880 --> 0:14:22.880 found out that one of the Maharishi's main men, Rag Vendor, 0:14:23.240 --> 0:14:27.480 a major domo, would come down once or twice a 0:14:27.560 --> 0:14:31.400 day to the town the shop, and I struck with 0:14:31.680 --> 0:14:34.760 an acquaintance with Rag Panda. Impressed Rag Vendor as to 0:14:34.880 --> 0:14:39.840 my knowledge of He dropped a few clever phrases under 0:14:40.240 --> 0:14:44.160 the understood mo of the of the transcendental world. Exactly 0:14:45.400 --> 0:14:47.720 worded my way into the confidence of Rag Panda, and 0:14:47.760 --> 0:14:50.320 then explained to him that I was from the Saturday Post, 0:14:51.320 --> 0:14:55.920 biggest media in America, and the Maharishi was a publicity hound. 0:14:56.520 --> 0:15:00.040 But believe me, it was in no way critical. I 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:04.240 I was here to gaze into into the into the 0:15:04.280 --> 0:15:08.960 mysteries of the East and too and at the same 0:15:09.040 --> 0:15:17.320 time make the Maharishi exactly and eventually rag Venda admitted 0:15:17.320 --> 0:15:19.320 me to the ash Ram. I was allowed for the gate. 0:15:20.560 --> 0:15:25.960 There must have been oh seventy meditators present, as well 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:28.280 as the Beatles. I mean, because he ran this Ashom, 0:15:28.320 --> 0:15:31.160 and the Beatles didn't have a private they had a group. 0:15:31.520 --> 0:15:34.800 They had a bungalow to themselves, and they also had 0:15:34.840 --> 0:15:39.840 provisions that were sent in from London. Because the and 0:15:40.880 --> 0:15:43.080 the food that was being served at the common table, 0:15:43.920 --> 0:15:50.800 I was wanting, yes, very very bland someone someone seasoned doll. Yes, 0:15:51.680 --> 0:15:55.360 But you know I attended that some of the open 0:15:55.440 --> 0:16:00.680 sessions I had, and I would have an occasional um 0:16:00.720 --> 0:16:04.320 aside with one of the Beatles, I mean McCartney, I 0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:07.920 thought was had a wonderful sense of humor, and so 0:16:08.040 --> 0:16:15.000 did Ringo. I never really got far enough into abstraction 0:16:15.000 --> 0:16:17.480 to understand Lennon, but there were a lot of other 0:16:17.480 --> 0:16:19.240 people right about. I mean, you know, I had a 0:16:19.240 --> 0:16:22.680 conversation with Mia Pharaoh. He showed she showed up The 0:16:22.720 --> 0:16:26.240 most beautiful model in the world at that time was 0:16:26.280 --> 0:16:30.720 a girl named Marissa Barrenson. And she showed up with 0:16:30.760 --> 0:16:34.280 her French boyfriend who had a mint coat. And then 0:16:34.520 --> 0:16:38.000 the Beach Boys showed up, and Donovan showed up. There 0:16:38.080 --> 0:16:42.040 was the wife of an Air Force colonel from California, 0:16:42.680 --> 0:16:45.880 had been living in Beverly Hills, and but her husband 0:16:45.880 --> 0:16:50.320 had left her one night because a UFO had landed 0:16:50.400 --> 0:16:55.000 on the lawn of their house in Beverly Hills, and 0:16:55.000 --> 0:16:57.840 and he had gone with them. There were there were 0:16:57.840 --> 0:17:02.680 a lot of characters. And up until then it's you 0:17:03.000 --> 0:17:05.960 and Mr Snare taking pictures in Oakland, and then you 0:17:06.040 --> 0:17:09.600 come and do the general General Assignment and you're covering 0:17:09.640 --> 0:17:12.359 Wagner at all in New York for the trib But 0:17:12.400 --> 0:17:14.640 would you say there was a time in your writing? 0:17:14.720 --> 0:17:16.840 Was there a moment and can you track it? Was 0:17:16.880 --> 0:17:19.399 there something happening in the country. Because I'll give you 0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:21.520 in a prefatory way, like a story about my dad. 0:17:22.359 --> 0:17:26.840 My dad turned forty in nineteen sixty seven, and when 0:17:26.840 --> 0:17:29.439 he turned forty, he was a school teacher making no money. 0:17:30.320 --> 0:17:32.560 I had six children, back in the day when people 0:17:32.560 --> 0:17:34.600 had six children. On faith, you know there was this 0:17:34.760 --> 0:17:38.000 believes in problems, these Irish Catholics. And in the ensuing 0:17:38.040 --> 0:17:42.600 twelve months from the fall of nineteen sixty seven, my father, 0:17:42.640 --> 0:17:45.200 who was a staunch Democrat, he was a Democratic Committeement 0:17:45.200 --> 0:17:48.439 and a very progressive Democrat when I was young. In 0:17:48.480 --> 0:17:52.159 the ensuing twelve months, King is shot, Kennedy is shot, 0:17:52.600 --> 0:17:55.760 my father's political nemesis is resurrected from the dead. The 0:17:55.800 --> 0:18:00.000 Democratic Convention is a is a debacle in Chicago, Nick's 0:18:00.000 --> 0:18:04.000 and becomes president, and his mother dies that October. So 0:18:04.000 --> 0:18:07.200 in that twelve months, like everything my father held dear 0:18:07.359 --> 0:18:10.840 just seemed to come crashing down. And I will say 0:18:10.920 --> 0:18:13.920 that my father was never the same again. Was there 0:18:14.000 --> 0:18:16.720 some series of events? Was a period you went through 0:18:16.840 --> 0:18:18.600 whenever they started to getting a lot more real to 0:18:18.680 --> 0:18:26.040 you politically? A period in our history perhaps, well, there 0:18:26.080 --> 0:18:28.560 were several. I mean, I said earlier when I was 0:18:28.600 --> 0:18:31.680 talking about about Maharishi, was sixty seven. It wasn't It 0:18:31.720 --> 0:18:34.560 was sixty eight, And that is the It's the same 0:18:34.640 --> 0:18:38.680 month that's as Ted, and that's the same years as 0:18:38.760 --> 0:18:44.479 Kennedy and King King and Chicago, Nixon and Nixon. On 0:18:44.520 --> 0:18:47.880 the other hand, I was kind of prepared for that 0:18:48.119 --> 0:18:51.639 because when I was in Cambridge, England, and here I'm 0:18:51.680 --> 0:18:56.760 still twenty two years old, young and at at Yale, 0:18:56.960 --> 0:19:04.080 I have not been a I wasn't a white shoe 0:19:04.119 --> 0:19:07.600 type guy. I I didn't. I went to one football 0:19:07.640 --> 0:19:10.200 game my freshman year, and then I spent the rest 0:19:10.200 --> 0:19:14.920 of the weekends in New York because that was wonderful 0:19:14.960 --> 0:19:17.439 in New York and in the fifties. I mean, I 0:19:17.520 --> 0:19:20.960 had access to an apartment that Orton would sometimes hold 0:19:20.960 --> 0:19:23.639 fourth and down in the village, and my idea of 0:19:23.680 --> 0:19:26.480 an evening would be to go to listen to Auton 0:19:26.640 --> 0:19:29.200 hold Fourth, and then go up to Birdland and listen 0:19:29.240 --> 0:19:35.520 to Parker uh Play and the or Mingus, and or 0:19:35.920 --> 0:19:40.919 go over to the White Horse Tavern and watch Dylan 0:19:40.960 --> 0:19:44.359 Thomas drink himself to death. I mean extreme mean I 0:19:44.440 --> 0:19:47.960 was love with perfect poetry. I knew we wanted to 0:19:47.960 --> 0:19:50.040 be a writer. I didn't know what kind of a writer. 0:19:51.000 --> 0:19:54.919 But then I go to England. The Fall of nineteen 0:19:55.720 --> 0:20:01.280 is the Uprising and Hungry and the uh was crisis, 0:20:02.200 --> 0:20:06.400 and a couple of the young Englishmen that I had 0:20:06.720 --> 0:20:12.480 become friends with went to Hungary to take part in 0:20:12.560 --> 0:20:17.320 the protests against the Soviets, and one of them was killed. 0:20:17.760 --> 0:20:21.280 If you remember the history, we had promised the CIA 0:20:21.480 --> 0:20:26.560 had promised to back the Hungarian Revolution, which of course 0:20:26.600 --> 0:20:30.359 we did not. Then I suddenly was asked to explain 0:20:31.320 --> 0:20:35.520 the Suez policy of John Forster Dallas, which I couldn't 0:20:35.520 --> 0:20:39.080 do because I hadn't been reading as an undergraduate newspaper 0:20:39.080 --> 0:20:46.960 as I've been reading auton Or brect Or literature. And 0:20:47.119 --> 0:20:50.919 I decided. When I first came back to America in 0:20:50.960 --> 0:20:55.480 the summer of nineteen seven, I went to Washington to 0:20:55.600 --> 0:21:02.239 apply for jobs. I went applied to the Washington Post, 0:21:02.280 --> 0:21:04.000 the White House to see if I could get some 0:21:04.080 --> 0:21:08.440 sort of clerk's job in the basement. And I went 0:21:08.560 --> 0:21:12.879 to apply for uh, the C. I A, what did 0:21:12.960 --> 0:21:15.040 you imagine you were going to have to offer the CIA? 0:21:15.119 --> 0:21:18.080 What were you gonna do? I was going to right. 0:21:18.160 --> 0:21:20.600 It was totally no, it was totally romantic, and it 0:21:20.720 --> 0:21:28.840 was drench coat last train of Berlin Communism, Finding Communism. 0:21:29.160 --> 0:21:31.800 I passed the mental tests, and I passed the physical 0:21:31.920 --> 0:21:35.359 and psychological tests, and then I had the interview with 0:21:35.440 --> 0:21:38.400 someone what I said, some of the younger guys, I'm 0:21:38.440 --> 0:21:44.080 twenty two these these guys must have been somewhere between thirty. 0:21:44.280 --> 0:21:49.480 I mean like that, Oh Yale looked like sounded like 0:21:50.160 --> 0:21:53.560 George W. Bush w W. So this year you're saying, 0:21:53.560 --> 0:21:55.680 is it what kind of a demeanor to them? Frat 0:21:55.680 --> 0:21:57.800 boy demeanor? Yeah, these are the kind of guys that 0:21:57.880 --> 0:22:01.760 I had avoided during my entire four years where you 0:22:01.760 --> 0:22:04.639 were at the ball game, you're reading, I I'm in 0:22:04.720 --> 0:22:07.560 New York, right, But I've studied for this, so I 0:22:07.600 --> 0:22:11.800 haven't quite written things on my cuff, but I I'm prepared. 0:22:11.840 --> 0:22:18.600 I mean, I know the four roads into the Orgon Forest. 0:22:19.320 --> 0:22:22.120 I am prepared to talk about the roman Off dynasty. 0:22:22.920 --> 0:22:27.280 I know about Stalin's crime. Since you know I'm first question, Alec, 0:22:27.560 --> 0:22:30.520 I'm not making this up. If you were standing on 0:22:30.840 --> 0:22:34.760 the thirteenth tea of the National Golf Links in Southampton, 0:22:34.920 --> 0:22:38.760 what club do you had? I got that one right, 0:22:38.840 --> 0:22:40.919 I've done that. I knew the answer to that question. 0:22:41.560 --> 0:22:45.639 The second question, six pm last week in August, you 0:22:45.640 --> 0:22:49.160 were coming in on the final approach to the Odd 0:22:49.160 --> 0:22:52.080 Club at Hey, Harvard, Fisher's Island. What tack are you want? 0:22:53.400 --> 0:22:55.560 I knew that too, because I've done that too. So 0:22:55.600 --> 0:22:59.240 you're doing well. Two for three. Third does make See 0:23:00.320 --> 0:23:04.719 I can't remember Mixi's last name were a slip. MIXI 0:23:04.880 --> 0:23:09.520 was the great numpomaniac of the Iva circuit in the fifties. 0:23:09.560 --> 0:23:14.960 And not to have known Mixi was not to have 0:23:15.080 --> 0:23:19.640 lived to have known her wardrobe. Yes, And I said them, gentlemen, 0:23:21.920 --> 0:23:26.879 my information is second hand. I've had rumors French silk, 0:23:27.160 --> 0:23:32.760 Belgian lace. But I I sources are untrustworthy and we're 0:23:32.800 --> 0:23:36.919 usually drunk. And then I said, and besides that, I 0:23:36.960 --> 0:23:41.000 apologized for wasting your time. And I got up walked out. 0:23:41.280 --> 0:23:46.080 I thought, my god, I mean, if this is the fence, 0:23:46.119 --> 0:23:51.320 I've got a jump. I've never been surprised since about 0:23:51.359 --> 0:23:56.359 the blenders, See I mean, I mean the arrogance that 0:23:56.520 --> 0:24:00.200 the idea that they, well, we'll figure out your coledge 0:24:00.240 --> 0:24:03.399 of Yugoslavian history later on or in of that region, 0:24:04.320 --> 0:24:11.520 one of us. Are you fit for the fraternity? Thus 0:24:11.680 --> 0:24:16.280 Louis lap Him tossed aside another career possibility. This is 0:24:16.320 --> 0:24:19.639 Alec Baldwin. You're listening to here's the thing. More in 0:24:19.680 --> 0:24:32.800 a minute. This is Alec Baldwin. You're listening to here's 0:24:32.840 --> 0:24:37.000 the thing. My guest. Louis lap Him's job at the 0:24:37.040 --> 0:24:41.359 Saturday Evening Post abruptly ended when the magazine folded in 0:24:41.440 --> 0:24:45.119 nineteen sixty nine. He was quickly hired at Life Magazine, 0:24:45.119 --> 0:24:49.000 which also went bust. In nineteen seventy, lap Him joined 0:24:49.040 --> 0:24:52.760 Harper's Magazine, where, except for some intervening years, he stayed 0:24:52.880 --> 0:24:57.760 until two thousand six. Lapham started at Harper's as a 0:24:57.840 --> 0:25:01.680 contract writer and soon became an editor. He has mentioned 0:25:01.760 --> 0:25:04.679 that he quote edited the magazine with a sympathy for 0:25:04.720 --> 0:25:08.000 the writer rather than the editor end quote. And as 0:25:08.000 --> 0:25:09.920 you know, I like, I mean, you know, good writing good, 0:25:10.000 --> 0:25:13.440 essay writing good. Any kind of writing isn't is an adventure. 0:25:13.640 --> 0:25:16.080 I mean you really don't know where you're going to 0:25:16.240 --> 0:25:18.520 end up. It's not a program attic. It's not like 0:25:18.600 --> 0:25:24.080 writing an annual report or writing a uh, you know, 0:25:24.119 --> 0:25:28.200 a baseball score. So over the course of time, I 0:25:28.200 --> 0:25:32.200 taught myself to write essays. And when did you take 0:25:32.240 --> 0:25:34.360 over the show over there? I took over the show 0:25:34.480 --> 0:25:39.080 nineteen and you created the Harper's Index. Correct, Yeah, but 0:25:39.119 --> 0:25:41.440 I do that later I do. I'm now the editor, 0:25:42.800 --> 0:25:46.520 and then I get fired in nineteen one because by 0:25:46.520 --> 0:25:49.800 this time it's changed hands. It's now in the hands 0:25:49.800 --> 0:25:54.000 of the MacArthur Foundation from Chicago. And the first time 0:25:54.000 --> 0:25:56.560 I was introduced to the board, I knew that it 0:25:56.640 --> 0:26:00.200 was over. It's not a question of whether there I 0:26:00.240 --> 0:26:02.960 was going to be fired next week or next month, 0:26:03.040 --> 0:26:06.280 but it was six months later because they didn't like 0:26:06.520 --> 0:26:09.879 what I wrote. I mean I was writing essays that 0:26:10.440 --> 0:26:15.679 were sometimes critical of American policy, politics, culture, so so 0:26:15.800 --> 0:26:21.120 seven So you said, he and then what happens? Then 0:26:21.160 --> 0:26:25.840 I spent two years in exile, and then uh, young 0:26:25.960 --> 0:26:32.639 John MacArthur, heir to the MacArthur Foundation fortune, became a 0:26:32.680 --> 0:26:36.080 member of the board and I was reinstated. I said, Rick, 0:26:36.119 --> 0:26:39.600 I'll be happy to go back, but only if a 0:26:41.000 --> 0:26:43.600 I can fire all the members of the board that 0:26:43.680 --> 0:26:48.080 fired me, and two that I can completely redesign the magazine. 0:26:48.080 --> 0:26:51.280 And when do you invent the index when I come back? 0:26:51.320 --> 0:26:54.600 I mean I redesigned that. When you say we designed 0:26:54.640 --> 0:26:57.840 it was in order to do what you're just a layout? Well, yeah, 0:26:57.840 --> 0:27:03.240 I brought the readings to me. Now, now, when you 0:27:03.320 --> 0:27:06.440 started your own magazine, when you started the last quarter, 0:27:07.440 --> 0:27:09.720 whose idea was that mine? I mean, it was something 0:27:09.720 --> 0:27:12.960 I wanted to do. For a long time. I mean again, 0:27:13.000 --> 0:27:19.920