1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,240 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. 2 00:00:04,200 --> 00:00:08,280 Speaker 1: Louis Lapham and Harper's Magazine are forever linked. As its 3 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 1: editor for nearly thirty years, Lapham began each issue with 4 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:16,079 Speaker 1: notebook and essay written in his beautifully precise prose on 5 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:19,640 Speaker 1: the political and cultural climate of our times. He's been 6 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: compared to Twain and to Montaigne. His expensive looking suits, 7 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:29,160 Speaker 1: complete with pocket square evoke another comparison. To sit with Lapham, 8 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:32,120 Speaker 1: you're struck with the sensation that you've stumbled onto some 9 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:35,520 Speaker 1: film noir set, and some of the stories he recounts 10 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 1: belonged to that genre, like when he got his first 11 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:42,120 Speaker 1: job as a rookie reporter at the San Francisco Examiner. 12 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: Seven reporters would lie around on couches with hats over 13 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 1: their faces, waiting for news of a murder, and then I, 14 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 1: as the cub, would go out to the scene of 15 00:00:56,080 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 1: the murder with the photographer. The photographer had a speed 16 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 1: Graflex camera, wore a shark skin suit and a loud 17 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:11,759 Speaker 1: hand painted tie, and his name was Seymour Snare Seymour 18 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: and I would prowl the lower depths in order to 19 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:21,200 Speaker 1: find sensational headlines for the first edition. In those days, 20 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:25,320 Speaker 1: paper had six or seven editions, and we would do 21 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 1: the late afternoon edition with the murder headline. And they 22 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:34,039 Speaker 1: told you I was twenty two, So you're a kid, 23 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 1: entirely a kid. And you this was not the background. 24 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 1: You came from a tough, working class background. No, no, 25 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 1: And that's one of the describe where you came from 26 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:46,640 Speaker 1: when I came out of the you know, the affluent, 27 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:53,520 Speaker 1: privileged San Francisco society, San Francisco society. My my grandfather 28 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:56,920 Speaker 1: was the mayor of the city between nineteen two and 29 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 1: nineteen forty six and wing World War Two, and he 30 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 1: would go out on the launch to meet carriers when 31 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 1: they would come in from the Pacific War. And I 32 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:11,200 Speaker 1: would be piped aboard with the mayor to meet Admiral 33 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 1: Nimitz or Admiral Halsey on the bridge of the enterprise. Also, 34 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:22,079 Speaker 1: he as the mayor, presided over the Charter of the 35 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:26,959 Speaker 1: United Nations in San Francisco, and he made sure that 36 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:32,119 Speaker 1: I was excused from school to attend the plenary sessions 37 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:36,440 Speaker 1: and then he would give diplomatic cocktail parties. And I 38 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 1: can remember at the age of ten passing Canapays to 39 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 1: Molotov and to Stutenius and to Alger Hiss and John 40 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 1: Foster Dallas. And then I went to boarding school in 41 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 1: New England, and from there to Yale University and after 42 00:02:55,200 --> 00:03:00,040 Speaker 1: that to Cambridge, England. At Cambridge, Lapham considered becoming a 43 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 1: history professor, but decided he wasn't cut out for the footnotes. 44 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 1: Then he briefly toyed with acting, but realized he was 45 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 1: only good at playing characters to whom he was sympathetic. 46 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 1: In the end, journalism called Louis slap him says he 47 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:17,520 Speaker 1: was a precious youth. When he got back from England 48 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 1: and took the job at the San Francisco Examiner, he 49 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 1: had a lot to learn. I can't remember, like the 50 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:26,919 Speaker 1: first piece I ever wrote for the for the paper 51 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 1: was in Oakland. They sent me to cover a flower 52 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 1: show that I went to the flowers show and I 53 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 1: wrote four thousand words and with all kinds of wonderful 54 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:47,240 Speaker 1: adjectives straight out. And the senior guy on the beat 55 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 1: in Oakland was a man named Crowley, and he looked 56 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 1: at me and he said, Louis, these are the most 57 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 1: beautiful four thousand words I have ever already said, they 58 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 1: tears in my eyes. But he said, I tell you what, 59 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: why don't you see even cut it in half? Great pain? 60 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 1: I was, you know, destroying immortal. I brought it back 61 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 1: to Crowley, and Crowley looked at He said, Louis, I 62 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 1: thought the first four thousand words are truly beautiful, but 63 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:26,599 Speaker 1: these are even more beautiful. But see I didn't cut 64 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:30,479 Speaker 1: in half again. And we went through this over a period. 65 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 1: It finally came out as one paragraph. And what I 66 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 1: learned in the newspaper business was to write on deadline, 67 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 1: but also to trim and concision, concision and then when 68 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:46,920 Speaker 1: you and the other reason, of course to be in 69 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 1: the newspaper business was to learn about the you know, 70 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 1: the American democracy. I mean I didn't know how a 71 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 1: city worked, or what politics were, or you know, I 72 00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 1: lived privileged. Why in a bubble? What were some of 73 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 1: the first insights you had into the American political system? Form? 74 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:08,039 Speaker 1: That was? It was really about who you knew, I 75 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 1: mean a way. It wasn't the right or wrong. It 76 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 1: was what was the deal? What was the trade? Could 77 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 1: we both get something out of this? It mattered that 78 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 1: you could speak well, that you were adroit, also that 79 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 1: you liked people. My sense of most of the politicians 80 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 1: I've known have been that they have genuine liking for 81 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:37,920 Speaker 1: their their fellow human beings. And I mean there there 82 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 1: exceptions such as Cheney would be a beautiful example. I 83 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:47,479 Speaker 1: mean Cheney, I think. And and the trouble with so 84 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:54,800 Speaker 1: many of the conservative politicians that have been in power 85 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:59,480 Speaker 1: of over the last thirty years is there they don't 86 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 1: have that quality, or at least they don't seem to 87 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:04,039 Speaker 1: me to have that quality. You see, this is the 88 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 1: difference between a democratic society is one and it is 89 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:15,920 Speaker 1: held together by mutual feeling and respect for one's fellow citizen. 90 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:21,719 Speaker 1: I hold my fellow citizen in thoughtful regard, not because 91 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 1: he is beautiful or rich or famous, but because he 92 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:28,920 Speaker 1: is my fellow citizen. The kind of a society that 93 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 1: gathers around a court, the kind of society that you 94 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:42,840 Speaker 1: would see in the court of either Elizabeth the First 95 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 1: or Louis the fourteen. A court society is one where 96 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 1: it is all about interest, It is all about hanging 97 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:59,159 Speaker 1: in the trapeze of one's connections and what it's very 98 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:07,799 Speaker 1: very cold. I mean, that's the whole move towards the 99 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 1: resort uh communicated community. I mean the the rich the 100 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 1: in the United States today, I mean living in a 101 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 1: completely different world. But do you think it's always been 102 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 1: that way? Meaning are the wealthy today different from the 103 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 1: wealthy two generations? Three generations? I think they probably are. 104 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 1: I mean there's always a distinction between there's always a 105 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 1: class distinction. I mean you can there's no society in 106 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 1: the history of mankind that hasn't been organized along some 107 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 1: form of class distinction. I mean, we organize it in 108 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 1: terms of money. We were doing that pretty much from 109 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 1: the beginning. I mean, the the settlement of Plymouth in 110 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 1: in six is a venture capital deal. It is, I 111 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 1: mean it's backed by by merchant bankers in in London. Well, 112 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 1: first of all, if you when you talk about people 113 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:10,679 Speaker 1: aligning themselves from the beginning on the basis of class, 114 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:15,840 Speaker 1: and I'm wondering how you've experienced that in your family, 115 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 1: what was your father's politics to the extent you want 116 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 1: to say, and did you differ from your family were 117 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 1: your politics because your politics are pretty I wouldn't use 118 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:30,160 Speaker 1: the word liberal or progressive, but they're but they're candor 119 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:33,200 Speaker 1: is the watchword here. I think, yeah, no, when they 120 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 1: disappointed in the way you know, you know, was your 121 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 1: father a pretty open minded guy. Yes, my father had 122 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 1: been very strongly in favor of Roosevelt two and his father, 123 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 1: my grandfather, I want to became the mayor, was strongly 124 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 1: conservative Republican who thought that FDR was the end of 125 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 1: the world. Wouldn't carry a dime in his pocket right 126 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 1: on the hand. By the time grandfather got to be 127 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 1: mayor of San Francisco in two he ran as an 128 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 1: independent and he was very open I mean he would 129 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:15,239 Speaker 1: pick hitchhikers up. He never had a you know, a bodyguard, 130 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:19,320 Speaker 1: He never had tinted windows. He used to like to 131 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 1: go into the you know, saloons in San Francisco late 132 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 1: at night. And the he wanted to get a bond 133 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 1: issue passed to replace the street cars on Market Street 134 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:40,959 Speaker 1: with buses, and there was some resistance about that. So 135 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:46,360 Speaker 1: he put it to a bet. He said, Okay, there'll 136 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 1: be a race. I will race from the Ferry Building 137 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 1: to city Hall. I will write an elephant against a 138 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 1: trolley car, and if the elephant beats the trolley car, 139 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 1: we have the bond shoe. If not not. But he 140 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 1: was a gambling man. So he insisted on a handicap, 141 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 1: and the handicap was that the elephant would be allowed 142 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 1: to go through red lights. The elephant one the bundle 143 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 1: as you passed. Now, when you leave, uh, San Francisco 144 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:23,680 Speaker 1: three years the newspaper, Where do you go from there? 145 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:25,360 Speaker 1: I go to New York. I go from the San 146 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 1: Francisco Examina and come to New York the Herald Tribune. 147 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:32,720 Speaker 1: How long were you there? I was there, uh two years? 148 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:36,079 Speaker 1: Write about them? First of all, I was general assignment, 149 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 1: covered the city, the mayor crime who was the mayor? Wagner? 150 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 1: I think? And then I was sent to the u N. 151 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 1: I became the third correspondent over there was the u 152 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:50,600 Speaker 1: N when Kristoff was there pounding a shoe on the table, 153 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 1: and when Castro was there carrying the chickens to Harlem. 154 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 1: I was then sent down to write about the the 155 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 1: Cape Canaveral first subspace shot. So you know, I did 156 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 1: a lot of different things. So after the Herald Tribute, 157 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:09,800 Speaker 1: what did you do? There was a new magazine called 158 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:13,680 Speaker 1: USA one, and I became staff writer for the new magazine. 159 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 1: It folded after six months. I then became a staff 160 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:23,600 Speaker 1: writer for the Saturday Evening Post, which was a big deal. 161 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:27,080 Speaker 1: In nineteen sixty three. They were still going strong. They 162 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:30,640 Speaker 1: were still going strong. I mean in nineteen sixty Life 163 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:35,080 Speaker 1: and the Saturday Evening Post where the equivalent of what 164 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 1: the networks became by the end of the sixties. If 165 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:43,480 Speaker 1: the president wanted to talk to the American people, he 166 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:47,680 Speaker 1: would either sit down with Joseph Stewart Alsop for the 167 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:50,680 Speaker 1: back page interview in the Post, or with Teddy White 168 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 1: in the back page interview Life. That was mass media 169 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:57,640 Speaker 1: back in the time. People also, I remember my grandfather 170 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 1: in the early sixties and either in Brooklyn, he would 171 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 1: read five newspapers a day. There was a morning paper, 172 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:06,280 Speaker 1: there was an evening paper. New York was swimming in newspapers. 173 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 1: There were eleven newspapers in New York in nineteen sixty 174 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 1: when I can, including the Brooklyn Eagle, which was the 175 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 1: best newspaper by in some people's opinion, in the all 176 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 1: the five boroughs. So I travel all over the world 177 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 1: for the Saturday Post. I mean, I went to did 178 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 1: stories in California, went and spent two weeks with the 179 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 1: Beatles and the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, and in Rishikesh. What 180 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 1: was what was that experience like? And you encapsulate that. 181 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 1: Where was it like hanging out with them in India? Well, 182 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 1: did you get any time with them? No? Not really, 183 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 1: I got I got a little time with them. The 184 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:50,800 Speaker 1: the there was something called transcendental meditation, which was all 185 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:54,679 Speaker 1: of rage in nineteen sixty seven and the Mary she 186 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 1: was giving people mantras in you know, handing whispering them 187 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:03,200 Speaker 1: in the your ears and and the Beatles have gone 188 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 1: there for a retreat. They needed to chill out. They 189 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:09,559 Speaker 1: needed to chill out. Being a Beatle was stressful. Stressful, 190 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:13,760 Speaker 1: I mean the oppression and all those love letters, seeing 191 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:16,080 Speaker 1: those songs. McCartney told me once that they would record 192 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 1: four songs a day. They want to keep the studio 193 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 1: time down to a minimum. It was expensive. They record 194 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 1: two songs in the morning and they could have some 195 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 1: fish and chips, smoke a cigarette, come back and do 196 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 1: two songs in the afternoon. It was a real grind, 197 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 1: he said, being a Beatle in the early days. But 198 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 1: by seven or the biggest thing in the world now 199 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:35,680 Speaker 1: they're taking a little more time. I was sent to 200 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:41,560 Speaker 1: become a potent, to somehow get into the ash Ram. 201 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:44,080 Speaker 1: No press, of course, was allowed. So how how would 202 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 1: you do that when when someone you're working for says, 203 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 1: go get into the ash ram? How do you do that? Politics? Dealmaking? 204 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 1: First of all, I studied. I went to California to 205 00:13:55,320 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 1: talk to devotees of the Maharishie's a little brief so 206 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:04,679 Speaker 1: that when I got to Rishi Cash and I got 207 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 1: in the cabin, I said, as the driver to the astra, 208 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:11,080 Speaker 1: I said to Rishi Cash, and he says, you go beatles. 209 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 1: I said, I go beetles. And it was twelve dollars 210 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:17,840 Speaker 1: a hundred and twelve miles the days. And then I 211 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 1: found out that one of the Maharishi's main men, Rag Vendor, 212 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:27,480 Speaker 1: a major domo, would come down once or twice a 213 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 1: day to the town the shop, and I struck with 214 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 1: an acquaintance with Rag Panda. Impressed Rag Vendor as to 215 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:39,840 Speaker 1: my knowledge of He dropped a few clever phrases under 216 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 1: the understood mo of the of the transcendental world. Exactly 217 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 1: worded my way into the confidence of Rag Panda, and 218 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 1: then explained to him that I was from the Saturday Post, 219 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 1: biggest media in America, and the Maharishi was a publicity hound. 220 00:14:56,520 --> 00:15:00,040 Speaker 1: But believe me, it was in no way critical. I 221 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 1: I was here to gaze into into the into the 222 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 1: mysteries of the East and too and at the same 223 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 1: time make the Maharishi exactly and eventually rag Venda admitted 224 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 1: me to the ash Ram. I was allowed for the gate. 225 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:25,960 Speaker 1: There must have been oh seventy meditators present, as well 226 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 1: as the Beatles. I mean, because he ran this Ashom, 227 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 1: and the Beatles didn't have a private they had a group. 228 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 1: They had a bungalow to themselves, and they also had 229 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 1: provisions that were sent in from London. Because the and 230 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 1: the food that was being served at the common table, 231 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 1: I was wanting, yes, very very bland someone someone seasoned doll. Yes, 232 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:55,360 Speaker 1: But you know I attended that some of the open 233 00:15:55,440 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 1: sessions I had, and I would have an occasional um 234 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 1: aside with one of the Beatles, I mean McCartney, I 235 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 1: thought was had a wonderful sense of humor, and so 236 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 1: did Ringo. I never really got far enough into abstraction 237 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 1: to understand Lennon, but there were a lot of other 238 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 1: people right about. I mean, you know, I had a 239 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 1: conversation with Mia Pharaoh. He showed she showed up The 240 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 1: most beautiful model in the world at that time was 241 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 1: a girl named Marissa Barrenson. And she showed up with 242 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 1: her French boyfriend who had a mint coat. And then 243 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 1: the Beach Boys showed up, and Donovan showed up. There 244 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 1: was the wife of an Air Force colonel from California, 245 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 1: had been living in Beverly Hills, and but her husband 246 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 1: had left her one night because a UFO had landed 247 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 1: on the lawn of their house in Beverly Hills, and 248 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 1: and he had gone with them. There were there were 249 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 1: a lot of characters. And up until then it's you 250 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 1: and Mr Snare taking pictures in Oakland, and then you 251 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 1: come and do the general General Assignment and you're covering 252 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:12,359 Speaker 1: Wagner at all in New York for the trib But 253 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:14,640 Speaker 1: would you say there was a time in your writing? 254 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 1: Was there a moment and can you track it? Was 255 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:19,399 Speaker 1: there something happening in the country. Because I'll give you 256 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 1: in a prefatory way, like a story about my dad. 257 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 1: My dad turned forty in nineteen sixty seven, and when 258 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:29,439 Speaker 1: he turned forty, he was a school teacher making no money. 259 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:32,560 Speaker 1: I had six children, back in the day when people 260 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 1: had six children. On faith, you know there was this 261 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:38,000 Speaker 1: believes in problems, these Irish Catholics. And in the ensuing 262 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 1: twelve months from the fall of nineteen sixty seven, my father, 263 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:45,200 Speaker 1: who was a staunch Democrat, he was a Democratic Committeement 264 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:48,439 Speaker 1: and a very progressive Democrat when I was young. In 265 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:52,159 Speaker 1: the ensuing twelve months, King is shot, Kennedy is shot, 266 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 1: my father's political nemesis is resurrected from the dead. The 267 00:17:55,800 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 1: Democratic Convention is a is a debacle in Chicago, Nick's 268 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 1: and becomes president, and his mother dies that October. So 269 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:07,200 Speaker 1: in that twelve months, like everything my father held dear 270 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 1: just seemed to come crashing down. And I will say 271 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:13,920 Speaker 1: that my father was never the same again. Was there 272 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:16,720 Speaker 1: some series of events? Was a period you went through 273 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 1: whenever they started to getting a lot more real to 274 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 1: you politically? A period in our history perhaps, well, there 275 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 1: were several. I mean, I said earlier when I was 276 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:31,680 Speaker 1: talking about about Maharishi, was sixty seven. It wasn't It 277 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 1: was sixty eight, And that is the It's the same 278 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:38,680 Speaker 1: month that's as Ted, and that's the same years as 279 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:44,479 Speaker 1: Kennedy and King King and Chicago, Nixon and Nixon. On 280 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:47,880 Speaker 1: the other hand, I was kind of prepared for that 281 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:51,639 Speaker 1: because when I was in Cambridge, England, and here I'm 282 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 1: still twenty two years old, young and at at Yale, 283 00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 1: I have not been a I wasn't a white shoe 284 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 1: type guy. I I didn't. I went to one football 285 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:10,200 Speaker 1: game my freshman year, and then I spent the rest 286 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:14,920 Speaker 1: of the weekends in New York because that was wonderful 287 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:17,439 Speaker 1: in New York and in the fifties. I mean, I 288 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:20,960 Speaker 1: had access to an apartment that Orton would sometimes hold 289 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:23,639 Speaker 1: fourth and down in the village, and my idea of 290 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:26,480 Speaker 1: an evening would be to go to listen to Auton 291 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:29,200 Speaker 1: hold Fourth, and then go up to Birdland and listen 292 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 1: to Parker uh Play and the or Mingus, and or 293 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:40,919 Speaker 1: go over to the White Horse Tavern and watch Dylan 294 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:44,359 Speaker 1: Thomas drink himself to death. I mean extreme mean I 295 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:47,960 Speaker 1: was love with perfect poetry. I knew we wanted to 296 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 1: be a writer. I didn't know what kind of a writer. 297 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:54,919 Speaker 1: But then I go to England. The Fall of nineteen 298 00:19:55,720 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 1: is the Uprising and Hungry and the uh was crisis, 299 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:06,400 Speaker 1: and a couple of the young Englishmen that I had 300 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:12,480 Speaker 1: become friends with went to Hungary to take part in 301 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:17,320 Speaker 1: the protests against the Soviets, and one of them was killed. 302 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 1: If you remember the history, we had promised the CIA 303 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:26,560 Speaker 1: had promised to back the Hungarian Revolution, which of course 304 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:30,359 Speaker 1: we did not. Then I suddenly was asked to explain 305 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 1: the Suez policy of John Forster Dallas, which I couldn't 306 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 1: do because I hadn't been reading as an undergraduate newspaper 307 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 1: as I've been reading auton Or brect Or literature. And 308 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:50,919 Speaker 1: I decided. When I first came back to America in 309 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 1: the summer of nineteen seven, I went to Washington to 310 00:20:55,600 --> 00:21:02,239 Speaker 1: apply for jobs. I went applied to the Washington Post, 311 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 1: the White House to see if I could get some 312 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:08,440 Speaker 1: sort of clerk's job in the basement. And I went 313 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:12,879 Speaker 1: to apply for uh, the C. I A, what did 314 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 1: you imagine you were going to have to offer the CIA? 315 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 1: What were you gonna do? I was going to right. 316 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 1: It was totally no, it was totally romantic, and it 317 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 1: was drench coat last train of Berlin Communism, Finding Communism. 318 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 1: I passed the mental tests, and I passed the physical 319 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:35,359 Speaker 1: and psychological tests, and then I had the interview with 320 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:38,400 Speaker 1: someone what I said, some of the younger guys, I'm 321 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:44,080 Speaker 1: twenty two these these guys must have been somewhere between thirty. 322 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:49,480 Speaker 1: I mean like that, Oh Yale looked like sounded like 323 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:53,560 Speaker 1: George W. Bush w W. So this year you're saying, 324 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:55,680 Speaker 1: is it what kind of a demeanor to them? Frat 325 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 1: boy demeanor? Yeah, these are the kind of guys that 326 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:01,760 Speaker 1: I had avoided during my entire four years where you 327 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:04,639 Speaker 1: were at the ball game, you're reading, I I'm in 328 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 1: New York, right, But I've studied for this, so I 329 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 1: haven't quite written things on my cuff, but I I'm prepared. 330 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 1: I mean, I know the four roads into the Orgon Forest. 331 00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:22,120 Speaker 1: I am prepared to talk about the roman Off dynasty. 332 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 1: I know about Stalin's crime. Since you know I'm first question, Alec, 333 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 1: I'm not making this up. If you were standing on 334 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:34,760 Speaker 1: the thirteenth tea of the National Golf Links in Southampton, 335 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 1: what club do you had? I got that one right, 336 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:40,919 Speaker 1: I've done that. I knew the answer to that question. 337 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:45,639 Speaker 1: The second question, six pm last week in August, you 338 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:49,160 Speaker 1: were coming in on the final approach to the Odd 339 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 1: Club at Hey, Harvard, Fisher's Island. What tack are you want? 340 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 1: I knew that too, because I've done that too. So 341 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 1: you're doing well. Two for three. Third does make See 342 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:04,719 Speaker 1: I can't remember Mixi's last name were a slip. MIXI 343 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 1: was the great numpomaniac of the Iva circuit in the fifties. 344 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:14,960 Speaker 1: And not to have known Mixi was not to have 345 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:19,640 Speaker 1: lived to have known her wardrobe. Yes, And I said them, gentlemen, 346 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:26,879 Speaker 1: my information is second hand. I've had rumors French silk, 347 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 1: Belgian lace. But I I sources are untrustworthy and we're 348 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:36,919 Speaker 1: usually drunk. And then I said, and besides that, I 349 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 1: apologized for wasting your time. And I got up walked out. 350 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 1: I thought, my god, I mean, if this is the fence, 351 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: I've got a jump. I've never been surprised since about 352 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:56,359 Speaker 1: the blenders, See I mean, I mean the arrogance that 353 00:23:56,520 --> 00:24:00,200 Speaker 1: the idea that they, well, we'll figure out your coledge 354 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,399 Speaker 1: of Yugoslavian history later on or in of that region, 355 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 1: one of us. Are you fit for the fraternity? Thus 356 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 1: Louis lap Him tossed aside another career possibility. This is 357 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:19,639 Speaker 1: Alec Baldwin. You're listening to here's the thing. More in 358 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:32,800 Speaker 1: a minute. This is Alec Baldwin. You're listening to here's 359 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 1: the thing. My guest. Louis lap Him's job at the 360 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:41,359 Speaker 1: Saturday Evening Post abruptly ended when the magazine folded in 361 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:45,119 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty nine. He was quickly hired at Life Magazine, 362 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 1: which also went bust. In nineteen seventy, lap Him joined 363 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 1: Harper's Magazine, where, except for some intervening years, he stayed 364 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:57,760 Speaker 1: until two thousand six. Lapham started at Harper's as a 365 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:01,680 Speaker 1: contract writer and soon became an editor. He has mentioned 366 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,679 Speaker 1: that he quote edited the magazine with a sympathy for 367 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 1: the writer rather than the editor end quote. And as 368 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:09,920 Speaker 1: you know, I like, I mean, you know, good writing good, 369 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:13,440 Speaker 1: essay writing good. Any kind of writing isn't is an adventure. 370 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,080 Speaker 1: I mean you really don't know where you're going to 371 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 1: end up. It's not a program attic. It's not like 372 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:24,080 Speaker 1: writing an annual report or writing a uh, you know, 373 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:28,200 Speaker 1: a baseball score. So over the course of time, I 374 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:32,200 Speaker 1: taught myself to write essays. And when did you take 375 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:34,360 Speaker 1: over the show over there? I took over the show 376 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 1: nineteen and you created the Harper's Index. Correct, Yeah, but 377 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:41,440 Speaker 1: I do that later I do. I'm now the editor, 378 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:46,520 Speaker 1: and then I get fired in nineteen one because by 379 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:49,800 Speaker 1: this time it's changed hands. It's now in the hands 380 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 1: of the MacArthur Foundation from Chicago. And the first time 381 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:56,560 Speaker 1: I was introduced to the board, I knew that it 382 00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:00,200 Speaker 1: was over. It's not a question of whether there I 383 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:02,960 Speaker 1: was going to be fired next week or next month, 384 00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:06,280 Speaker 1: but it was six months later because they didn't like 385 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:09,879 Speaker 1: what I wrote. I mean I was writing essays that 386 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:15,679 Speaker 1: were sometimes critical of American policy, politics, culture, so so 387 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:21,120 Speaker 1: seven So you said, he and then what happens? Then 388 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:25,840 Speaker 1: I spent two years in exile, and then uh, young 389 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:32,639 Speaker 1: John MacArthur, heir to the MacArthur Foundation fortune, became a 390 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 1: member of the board and I was reinstated. I said, Rick, 391 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,600 Speaker 1: I'll be happy to go back, but only if a 392 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 1: I can fire all the members of the board that 393 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 1: fired me, and two that I can completely redesign the magazine. 394 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 1: And when do you invent the index when I come back? 395 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 1: I mean I redesigned that. When you say we designed 396 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:57,840 Speaker 1: it was in order to do what you're just a layout? Well, yeah, 397 00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:03,240 Speaker 1: I brought the readings to me. Now, now, when you 398 00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:06,440 Speaker 1: started your own magazine, when you started the last quarter, 399 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:09,720 Speaker 1: whose idea was that mine? I mean, it was something 400 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:12,960 Speaker 1: I wanted to do. For a long time. I mean again, 401 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:19,920 Speaker 1: it goes back to my um interest in history. The 402 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 1: quarterly is a lot of history in the quarter. What 403 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 1: it is is the great books made topical. I mean 404 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 1: I take a subject in the news, war, money, politics, nature, medicine, 405 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:43,440 Speaker 1: and then assemble texts. My contributors are people like Escalus, Cicero, Gibbon, Machiavelli, Shakespeare. 406 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 1: It's based on my notion. That is actually the notion 407 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:52,480 Speaker 1: of German poet gert Is talking about history, and he 408 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:58,359 Speaker 1: says history is it's our inheritance. The story on the 409 00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:01,200 Speaker 1: old walls were printed in the old books is also 410 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:05,879 Speaker 1: our own story. And Gurta says, he who cannot draw 411 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,720 Speaker 1: on his three thousand years is living hand amount. And 412 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 1: that's true. You find history exhilarating. I do. I find 413 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:17,800 Speaker 1: it essential essential, I find it a great source of 414 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 1: energy and hope. I mean you have a quote here 415 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:24,520 Speaker 1: in which you say the reading of history damps down 416 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:28,359 Speaker 1: the impulse to slander, the trend and tenor of the 417 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 1: times instills a sense of humor, lessons our fear about 418 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:37,840 Speaker 1: what might happen tomorrow. That's true when you understand the 419 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:45,240 Speaker 1: obstacles that people have had to overcome. Nothing that improves 420 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:52,120 Speaker 1: man's condition and circumstance is accomplished without going up against 421 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 1: very heavy odds. This is what history teaches you, so 422 00:28:56,120 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 1: that you don't despair of your your own time. You 423 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 1: don't say, God, America's in decline. If you look at history, 424 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 1: that America has always been in Yeah. If you look 425 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 1: at history, a golden Age was really just the time 426 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:13,120 Speaker 1: when they got away with it. That's right. History is 427 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:16,720 Speaker 1: not what happened two hundred or two thousand years ago. 428 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 1: It's a story about what happened, what happened to them. Yeah, 429 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:25,480 Speaker 1: that's right. Now you have how many children? Three? And 430 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:28,120 Speaker 1: are any of them involved in publishing at all? No? No, 431 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 1: do they have? Are they deeply political people? Are they 432 00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 1: have strong political opinions? Do they share yours? For that matter? 433 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:39,320 Speaker 1: My older son does to some degree, My older my 434 00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:43,240 Speaker 1: oldest what does He's in the financial business, in private 435 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 1: equity in Toronto and Canada. How do you end up 436 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 1: Prepare He ended up up there because he married a 437 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,479 Speaker 1: Canadian girl. And also in Toronto is a pretty good 438 00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:57,800 Speaker 1: place to live. I mean, he has four children. He 439 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:02,160 Speaker 1: could provide for them better life there than he could 440 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:04,160 Speaker 1: say in New York City, And what about your other 441 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,800 Speaker 1: two children. My daughter is married to an Italian prince 442 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:11,760 Speaker 1: and lives outside Rome, and my younger son is also 443 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:15,000 Speaker 1: in a financial business and he is working in a 444 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:18,440 Speaker 1: small venture capital firm in Monaco. Do you ever think 445 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:20,080 Speaker 1: you'd have kids and you'd be able to say that 446 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:22,280 Speaker 1: you have three kids and all three of them live 447 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 1: overseas in Canada, one in Rome, one in Monica, and 448 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:31,960 Speaker 1: my six grandchildren are overseas two four for them. You 449 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 1: travel there all the time. I travel not all the time, 450 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:38,440 Speaker 1: but I travel enough to keep it warm, and they 451 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 1: come here. Now. You've obviously are very keen on history, 452 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:47,840 Speaker 1: and that's that's uh embedded in much of, not all 453 00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 1: of your writing. And for people who don't know you, 454 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:55,760 Speaker 1: you're a very handsome, very elegant. The pockets square, the 455 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 1: crisp suit, the tie, you're very handsome devil. You know what. 456 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:01,440 Speaker 1: I'm sure that every door has been open to you 457 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:03,600 Speaker 1: for you over the years. You're great. You're the person 458 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:05,800 Speaker 1: every wants one wants to sit next to at a dinner. 459 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:10,440 Speaker 1: And my question becomes, I'm gonna name five figures from history, 460 00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 1: and I'll keep naming some until we get it right, 461 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:14,719 Speaker 1: because maybe maybe the answer is you never met them 462 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:16,560 Speaker 1: and you had no opinion of them. But I'll name 463 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:18,480 Speaker 1: some over the course of American history, and you tell 464 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 1: me what your assessment of them was, to the extent 465 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:24,480 Speaker 1: you're willing to um either John or Robert Kennedy? Did 466 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,800 Speaker 1: you meet other one of them? I met them both. 467 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:32,880 Speaker 1: With the circumstances of meeting John. It was a party. 468 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:35,000 Speaker 1: It's actually I met him both at the same time. 469 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 1: It was a party given for Teddy Kennedy and it 470 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:42,240 Speaker 1: was a birthday party for Teddy and I. It's either 471 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 1: sixty two or sixty three, Southampton, No, New York, Fifth Avenue, 472 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:50,960 Speaker 1: had big apartment on Fifth Avenue. I was at the 473 00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:59,640 Speaker 1: time going out with a young lady who was also 474 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:05,959 Speaker 1: going out with Bobby. I was Beard at the familiar 475 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 1: with that term at the dinner at Beard. Yeah, this 476 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:14,760 Speaker 1: is two. I think this is sixty years old. Yeah, 477 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:17,320 Speaker 1: aside or sixty two or sixties three? Would you make 478 00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:19,960 Speaker 1: of either one of them? What do you make of them? 479 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,720 Speaker 1: In retrospecting history through the prism of history? What do 480 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:24,480 Speaker 1: you think about either one of them? I'm learning to 481 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:30,240 Speaker 1: like them more now than I did then. Let's go 482 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 1: back on the U. N. Correspondent for the Harald Tribune 483 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:40,760 Speaker 1: when Kennedy is inaugurated. The speech asked, not what America 484 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 1: can do for you when you do for American I'm 485 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:47,680 Speaker 1: watching it with the correspondence from foreign correspondence and the 486 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:51,360 Speaker 1: guy from Lamonde listen to that speech and says, that's 487 00:32:51,400 --> 00:33:01,000 Speaker 1: the worst naive treacle treacle right, almost gotten with him, Right. 488 00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 1: I was very gung hog Kennedy the I think seeing 489 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 1: him in the setup at the you had Smith's, no 490 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:19,880 Speaker 1: Smiths apartment, it was a real disappointment. He seemed like 491 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:25,840 Speaker 1: he was a guy who was hounded by demons on 492 00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:30,720 Speaker 1: the You know, I also know something about his relations 493 00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:34,360 Speaker 1: with women at the time, so we didn't think he 494 00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:36,200 Speaker 1: had his house in order enough to be I didn't 495 00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:38,480 Speaker 1: think so. Yeah, and what about his brother? Did you 496 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:40,360 Speaker 1: get the same brother? I thought it was a bully 497 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:43,760 Speaker 1: because many many people have a very negative assessment of 498 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:48,880 Speaker 1: him up until his brother's killed. Yeah. Did you meet Nixon? Yes? 499 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:50,840 Speaker 1: I met next time once And I'm trying to remember 500 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:54,520 Speaker 1: I had a I never liked or trusted Nixon, and 501 00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:56,440 Speaker 1: I can't remember where I met him. I met him 502 00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:59,479 Speaker 1: some place in California, but at a distance. I mean 503 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:00,920 Speaker 1: that was never you know, I was part of a 504 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:03,640 Speaker 1: crowd or something. But isn't it interesting how people that 505 00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:05,560 Speaker 1: I know who are not as a stute as you 506 00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:08,279 Speaker 1: are about history, but there're students of history there. There's 507 00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:12,240 Speaker 1: certainly students of American history. They certainly know the political 508 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:14,319 Speaker 1: history of this country. And many of my friends who 509 00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:17,960 Speaker 1: are politically active, and I mean beyond writing checks and 510 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:20,719 Speaker 1: that kind of uh, you know, that kind of political 511 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:23,720 Speaker 1: class where it's all about giving money and in that world, 512 00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:26,720 Speaker 1: I've I've heard people say, God, I I take Nixon 513 00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:28,600 Speaker 1: back tomorrow compared to these guys that are here. And 514 00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 1: there was a lot of good with Nixon. Do you 515 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:33,759 Speaker 1: agree with that? I don't know enough to agree or 516 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:37,279 Speaker 1: disagree with it. I know that he backed the Environmental 517 00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,440 Speaker 1: Protection Agency. I know that he backed the what's the 518 00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:44,319 Speaker 1: Unemployment Act? That that if you get hurt workman's compensation. 519 00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:46,399 Speaker 1: But there was a lot of good under Nixon. Yeah, 520 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:48,040 Speaker 1: what do you think of rom What did you think 521 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:52,440 Speaker 1: of Romney? And more importantly, inside the question of what 522 00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 1: you think of Romney, what do you think about, shall 523 00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:58,000 Speaker 1: we say, the casting Department of the Republican Party. They 524 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,239 Speaker 1: seem to because Obama was there for the taking. Don't 525 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:04,480 Speaker 1: you think I think Obama could have been defeated. Yeah, 526 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,319 Speaker 1: I think he was lucky to win, just the way 527 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:11,600 Speaker 1: I think he was lucky to win. Uh. You know 528 00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:15,239 Speaker 1: in two thousand and eight when the Republicans put up 529 00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:21,239 Speaker 1: Sarah Palin. But yes, the I thought it was a 530 00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:29,359 Speaker 1: pretty clownish group of primary candidates that were fielded by 531 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:36,600 Speaker 1: the Republicans. They my sense of Romney again, I saw 532 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:39,640 Speaker 1: him in a small room once, but you know, trying 533 00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:41,600 Speaker 1: to draw him up money from some Wall Street guys 534 00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:44,239 Speaker 1: in New York. He didn't come off any differently than 535 00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:47,400 Speaker 1: than what you've seen him on television. Was almost impossible 536 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:49,680 Speaker 1: for him to overcome what Gingwich said about him during 537 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:53,799 Speaker 1: the primary. Um, what do you think about Obama? I 538 00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:57,800 Speaker 1: think Obama means well, Um, I think that's enough these days? 539 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:03,400 Speaker 1: Probably not again, how much can a president really accomplish 540 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:07,839 Speaker 1: it is another problem? And you I don't think he's 541 00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:11,560 Speaker 1: the he likes politics in the same way to say 542 00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:16,719 Speaker 1: Johnson did. Johnson really wanted to use the office of 543 00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:20,440 Speaker 1: the presidency to do something and knew how to make 544 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:24,279 Speaker 1: it work. I knew that it was political. I'm never 545 00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:28,080 Speaker 1: sure that Obama is about anything other than a striking 546 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:33,160 Speaker 1: opposes Nor am I sure that that is not what 547 00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:39,359 Speaker 1: the office of the presidency has become. Why anybody would 548 00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:42,680 Speaker 1: want to become president of the United States is it's 549 00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:47,160 Speaker 1: something that I have Um, I can't imagine wanting to 550 00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:49,719 Speaker 1: do that, because when you think about what is that 551 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:53,920 Speaker 1: life like, I mean you're surrounded by people that are 552 00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:56,280 Speaker 1: probably lying to you. I mean it's like a life 553 00:36:56,320 --> 00:37:02,080 Speaker 1: at court in in um Queen Elizabeth England or only 554 00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:07,279 Speaker 1: the fourteenths France. It's cold hearted self interest. It's not 555 00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:16,080 Speaker 1: require a degree of vanity that that you know, I 556 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:20,239 Speaker 1: can I can imagine it, but it but it's it's uh, well, 557 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:23,680 Speaker 1: we've heard that comment before. What people have said the 558 00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:26,440 Speaker 1: type of man or woman that would want to be 559 00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:29,960 Speaker 1: president now is someone we certainly don't want to be president. 560 00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:36,040 Speaker 1: Probably not Lincoln wanted to be president. He wouldn't have 561 00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:38,239 Speaker 1: wanted to run for I mean he's running for a 562 00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:41,279 Speaker 1: second term. I mean he was reluctant. I mean, you know, 563 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:46,560 Speaker 1: there are people that are happy to leave the office, 564 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:49,600 Speaker 1: to leave the stage, to leave the stage. As my 565 00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:52,840 Speaker 1: one friend said, about one political figure that leave the stage. 566 00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:58,800 Speaker 1: It's a thankless task, really is It's Yeah, it's service. 567 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:08,480 Speaker 1: It's get service to your come. Yeah. Louis Lapham continues 568 00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:11,359 Speaker 1: to serve his country. At seventy seven, he still goes 569 00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:20,359 Speaker 1: to work every day at Lapham's Quarterly. After our conversation, 570 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:24,600 Speaker 1: I wondered why Lapham hadn't cultivated more personal relationships with 571 00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:31,800 Speaker 1: the political leaders of his day. So Hello, it's Alec 572 00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:38,560 Speaker 1: Baldwin calling for Mr Lapham. Mr Lapham is speaking. You know, Lewis. 573 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:41,640 Speaker 1: When you were here and we talked about, you know something, 574 00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:43,279 Speaker 1: a number of things, but one thing that kind of 575 00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:46,320 Speaker 1: stuck in my mind was that you had this access 576 00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:52,200 Speaker 1: to all of these political figures, government leaders of their 577 00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:54,279 Speaker 1: time and so forth, and you were around them and 578 00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:57,040 Speaker 1: reporting about them, and yet it sounds to me like 579 00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:01,080 Speaker 1: you didn't make them intimates of yours. No, I did not, 580 00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:04,359 Speaker 1: And I was wondering why was that the case. Well, 581 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:08,239 Speaker 1: because I thought of myself as a journalist and I 582 00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:13,360 Speaker 1: wanted to be free to say what I thought or 583 00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:18,440 Speaker 1: report what I thought I had seen, and I didn't 584 00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:23,600 Speaker 1: want to become obligated. I wanted to keep a safe distance. 585 00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:27,000 Speaker 1: You know, I appreciate that because I mean, that's a 586 00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:30,200 Speaker 1: very common thing that people, uh, you know, you know 587 00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:34,839 Speaker 1: when when the political leaders started to you know, hang 588 00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:37,960 Speaker 1: out and party with the press, when they invited them 589 00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:42,439 Speaker 1: in the door to stay, everything began to change. Yeah, 590 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:46,520 Speaker 1: everything does begin to change. And that's what begins to happen, 591 00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:51,920 Speaker 1: of course, in the sixties, when politics becomes glamorous and 592 00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:58,439 Speaker 1: Kennedy and cameloged and the heady association with power. It's 593 00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:03,640 Speaker 1: you would ascribe that phenomenon kind of beginning with Kennedy. Well, 594 00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:05,640 Speaker 1: that was when I first became aware of it. I mean, 595 00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:09,000 Speaker 1: I'm sure it was true at the Court of Louis 596 00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:14,480 Speaker 1: the Four Teeth and Elizabeth the First. It's true of 597 00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:19,880 Speaker 1: any court society. I once wrote a essay about the 598 00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:25,920 Speaker 1: American media. The title was Rosencrantz and Jill's Stern, And 599 00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:29,120 Speaker 1: that's the way I tend to think of the Washington 600 00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:32,799 Speaker 1: press corps. The struggle for me is that if you 601 00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:34,960 Speaker 1: and I don't mean to sound lofty here, but you 602 00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:38,800 Speaker 1: have kind of a Clinton war room Carvel esque approach 603 00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:40,719 Speaker 1: toward dealing with the media, which is that you put 604 00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:43,200 Speaker 1: out every fire and you address every issue where your 605 00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:46,720 Speaker 1: name is dragged in, or you try to remain above 606 00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:49,480 Speaker 1: the fray and ignored, knowing that will all I mean, 607 00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:52,960 Speaker 1: unless there's real criminal charges at stake, you know that 608 00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:55,680 Speaker 1: it will dissipate. And I'm wondering if you have any 609 00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:58,480 Speaker 1: advice for me, and it was, do you think I'm 610 00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:01,160 Speaker 1: better off where there's nothing serious involved? Do you think 611 00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:04,200 Speaker 1: I'm better off not engaging and letting it go and 612 00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:07,399 Speaker 1: it just wafts away like smoke? Or do you think 613 00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:11,719 Speaker 1: that journalism today and the media establishment today is a 614 00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:14,200 Speaker 1: bull I need to be fighting from time to time. 615 00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:16,839 Speaker 1: I don't think you need to fight it Alec, because 616 00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:22,000 Speaker 1: you always lose. Can I tell you my introduction to that. 617 00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:28,600 Speaker 1: My first lesson in this was in the Oakland City 618 00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:32,920 Speaker 1: Hall press room. I mentioned Seymour Snare with the The 619 00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:37,440 Speaker 1: press room is in the same building as the police 620 00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:41,719 Speaker 1: department and the courts in the Mayor's office. The head 621 00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:44,799 Speaker 1: of the by squad was anxious to become a particular 622 00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:48,080 Speaker 1: friend of the media, of the press, and so that 623 00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:51,560 Speaker 1: the press would play him as as an heroic figure, 624 00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:56,720 Speaker 1: which the press obligingly did. The vice squad guy also 625 00:41:56,840 --> 00:42:04,040 Speaker 1: had a girlfriend who was a serious nymphomaniac. He used 626 00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:09,080 Speaker 1: to make her available to the members of the press 627 00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:14,440 Speaker 1: room on the third Friday of every month. She was 628 00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:18,920 Speaker 1: very good looking, but she had only one leg. She 629 00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:23,040 Speaker 1: was a beautiful, one legged nymphomaniac who was the paramour 630 00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:26,279 Speaker 1: of the head of the Vice squad exactly, and I, 631 00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:29,720 Speaker 1: being the cub I was not invited to the Friday 632 00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:35,279 Speaker 1: afternoon celebrations, nor did I want to be. But that 633 00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:39,960 Speaker 1: they then comes when she was married and the ladies 634 00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:45,480 Speaker 1: husband files divorce suit and names the vice squad captain 635 00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:50,200 Speaker 1: as the correspondence. I was in the press room the 636 00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:55,520 Speaker 1: day that that announcement was made, and suddenly these four 637 00:42:55,560 --> 00:43:03,320 Speaker 1: guys rise reluctantly to their typewriters and begin to write 638 00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:11,120 Speaker 1: morally outraged editorials. How can such things be? How can 639 00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:16,040 Speaker 1: our fair city of Oakland tolerate the behavior of a 640 00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:18,719 Speaker 1: corrupt police captain. I mean, you see what I mean. 641 00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:22,160 Speaker 1: I mean they turned on a dime. What I'm telling 642 00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:25,840 Speaker 1: you is the media is is not trustworthy. It's Claude 643 00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:30,520 Speaker 1: Rains closing down the casino. Yeah, I'm outraged. I'm outraged. 644 00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:34,440 Speaker 1: And the guy your winning, sir, I'm shocked, shocked at 645 00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:39,479 Speaker 1: this gambling. Here your winnings, sir. Yeah, it's not good 646 00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:41,840 Speaker 1: to get into involved. I don't think in an argument 647 00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:43,920 Speaker 1: with the media because they always have the last word. 648 00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:46,279 Speaker 1: You wanted us to think. You've just done me a 649 00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:50,680 Speaker 1: big favor. Your pen is mighty, your mind and your 650 00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:53,200 Speaker 1: your words are mighty. And with a single phone call 651 00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:56,239 Speaker 1: who you have crushed my entire public relations apparatus in 652 00:43:56,320 --> 00:44:02,080 Speaker 1: to powder. But I'm grateful to you for thanks. This 653 00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:05,200 Speaker 1: is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing, 654 00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:09,840 Speaker 1: m