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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. How does a beautiful twenty

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Speaker 1: four year old young second grade teacher end up crumpled,

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Speaker 1: partially nude at a doorstep just before her death? How

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Speaker 1: does that happen? And what does a cigarette but have

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Speaker 1: to do with this story? I'm Nancy Grace, this is

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at

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Speaker 1: Fox Nation and series XM one eleven. First of all,

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Speaker 1: take a listen to our friend Dave mac at crime

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Speaker 1: online dot com.

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Speaker 2: Beverly opened the bedroom door, saw that the room was

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Speaker 2: in a state of disarray, and just behind the door

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Speaker 2: was the body of Ritocurring, partially nude and crumpled on

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Speaker 2: the floor. She'd obviously been in the fight of her

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Speaker 2: life and didn't win. Rita's curlers were still in her hair,

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Speaker 2: but she had been beaten in the head and faith

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Speaker 2: Rita was dead. She had fought her attacker heart and

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Speaker 2: it was later determined that she had been sexually assaulted.

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Speaker 2: The medical examiner would find the cause of death to

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Speaker 2: be manual strangulation.

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Speaker 1: Let's just take what we just heard from our friends

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Speaker 1: at crime online. Partially nude, the curlers still in her hair,

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Speaker 1: crumpled at a bedroom door, the room in complete disarray,

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Speaker 1: having been in the fight of her life, a fight

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Speaker 1: that she lost. Right there off the top, let me

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Speaker 1: go to Paul Zike, Foreigner police commander and Albuquerque author

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Speaker 1: of stop him from Killing Them. Paul Zike, right there,

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Speaker 1: I know that she was attacked in her bedroom, in

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Speaker 1: her home. She was either partially unclothed, stripped by her killer,

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Speaker 1: or she was caught changing clothes or getting in or

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Speaker 1: out of the shower or baptob No, no, she still

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Speaker 1: has curlers in her hair. She must have been getting

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Speaker 1: in or out as bed. So already I'm learning a lot.

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Speaker 3: Most attacks that occur in your home are very much

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Speaker 3: as surprise. Whether somebody crossed their window, they pry a

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Speaker 3: door open, or they slip in through the garage.

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Speaker 4: It's an attack that's sudden, it's vicious, it's meant to overwhelm,

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Speaker 4: and very few people, male or female, are really prepared

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Speaker 4: to defend themselves against something that they did not know

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Speaker 4: was going to occur, especially with such viciousness.

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Speaker 1: I want to go to Karen Stark joining me, high

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Speaker 1: profile psychologist joining us out of New York. You can

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Speaker 1: find her at Karenstark dot com Karen with a c Karen,

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Speaker 1: I was thinking about her and still having her curl

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Speaker 1: in her hair. That tells me that she was either

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Speaker 1: just going to sleep, just waking up, or in the

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Speaker 1: midst of getting ready to go out. And all those times,

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Speaker 1: especially when you're getting ready for bed or just waking up,

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Speaker 1: that's the last time you expect an intruder. Why is that?

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Speaker 1: Do we lull ourselves into some sense of complacency?

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Speaker 5: I think it's tired for anyone to imagine that's something

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Speaker 5: that like that would happen to you. So it's a

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Speaker 5: time when you're thinking about sleeping or just waking up

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Speaker 5: and you're not you're a menis in person?

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Speaker 1: Well, Karen, start either you're tired at the end of

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Speaker 1: the day and getting ready for bed, or you've just

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Speaker 1: woken up and you're half asleep, half awake. Both times

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Speaker 1: you're vulnerable.

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Speaker 3: Very vulnerable.

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Speaker 1: You know. That reminds me of something Paul's I write

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Speaker 1: in my book Don't Be a Victim. People often say, well,

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Speaker 1: I was at home, I didn't have the alarm on.

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Speaker 1: That's the whole reason. You need the alarm on. Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: when we're at home and I've got my children there.

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Speaker 1: I've got my ninety one year old mother at home.

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Speaker 1: That's when I want the home protected more than any

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Speaker 1: other time. Hey, come on my TV. I'd be mad

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Speaker 1: if you did not take it. Immediately, take it and go.

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Speaker 1: But what needs to protecting most is your family.

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Speaker 3: And when somebody breaks in a home at night, it's

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Speaker 3: much different than a day like breaking and during the day,

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Speaker 3: they don't want you to be home. They want to

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Speaker 3: take your items, you're valuables, and then they leave. At

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Speaker 3: night they know you're home, they know you're in the house.

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Speaker 3: The type of predator who breaks in knowing that people

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Speaker 3: are in the house sleeping or in the house getting

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Speaker 3: ready or getting in the house getting ready to go

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Speaker 3: to bed, they are the ones that are capable or

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Speaker 3: most capable of taking things to a much tragic ending.

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Speaker 1: Riada just twenty four years old at the time she's murdered.

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Speaker 1: Much loved grade teacher. You know, I can still remember

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Speaker 1: my second grade teacher, Miss Clarabel Bryant, and I loved

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Speaker 1: her so much. She encouraged me to write poetry, Jackie,

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Speaker 1: my first poem second grade Round the Meadow under Miss

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Speaker 1: Clara Beel Bryant. Can anybody in the studio or on

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Speaker 1: the panel. Not remember your second grade teacher, Leo Wolf,

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Speaker 1: Cleo Wolf, I mean you remember your said it's Frits.

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Speaker 1: So this is somebody's beloved second grade teacher. What more

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Speaker 1: do we know from crime online?

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Speaker 2: Police found no signs of forced entry, but that was

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Speaker 2: not uncommon for the area. Residents didn't lock their doors.

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Speaker 2: In Burlington, Vermont in nineteen seventy one, investigators found blood

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Speaker 2: smeared on the inside of the back door just off

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Speaker 2: the kitchen, probably the route the attacker took to leave

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Speaker 2: the ground floor apartment. In the initial stage of the investigation,

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Speaker 2: several women notified police of anonymous late night phone calls

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Speaker 2: and Peeping Tom incidents. It was later learned that during

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Speaker 2: the investigation, Rita was one of the women to receive

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Speaker 2: these phone calls in the nights before her murder.

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Speaker 1: Peeping Tom's hang up phone calls, I mean Matthew Mangino

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Speaker 1: with me, well known attorney, former prosecutor in Lawrence County

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Speaker 1: and author of the Executioners Told the Crimes, Ares, Trials, Appeals,

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Speaker 1: Last Meals, and Final Words a forty six person executions

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Speaker 1: of forty six persons in the US. Wow great book Matthew. Matthew,

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Speaker 1: thank you. Do you remember when you were prosecuting felonies

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Speaker 1: how often you would look in a homicide file or

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Speaker 1: a rape file or an agassault file and way back

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Speaker 1: in the back of the rap sheet would be peeping Tom.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 6: Well, that's certainly a concern that certainly fits a profile

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Speaker 6: of some and who is ultimately maybe a sex offender.

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Speaker 6: And in this situation, I'm looking at peeping Tom, I'm

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Speaker 6: looking at phone calls. This is someone who has some connection.

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Speaker 7: To this person.

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Speaker 6: Maybe it's not a personal connection, maybe it's a geographical connection.

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Speaker 6: They live in the same building, they live in the

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Speaker 6: same neighborhood, so they have the ability to look in

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Speaker 6: the window, they have the ability to make these phone calls.

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Speaker 6: So you know, the first thing I'm going to do,

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Speaker 6: if I know there's a history of this is I'm

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Speaker 6: going to start canvassing that neighborhood. I'm going to start

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Speaker 6: asking questions from the neighbors and other people who live

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Speaker 6: nearby what they saw and what they what they know

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Speaker 6: about these prior incidents, and have they ever seen anybody

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Speaker 6: that looks suspicious in the neighborhood or who you know,

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Speaker 6: looked as though they were involved in this kind of

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Speaker 6: nefarious conduct.

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Speaker 1: You know, you're right. I very often argue to Jurrurs

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Speaker 1: that it's human nature to covet on what we see.

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Speaker 1: And when you're talking about the attack and murdyer of

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Speaker 1: a gorgeous young teacher like Rita, who was the paping

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Speaker 1: tom who was calling and hanging up, who had the

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Speaker 1: opportunity to be in that neighborhood, at that apartment complex repeatedly,

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Speaker 1: So I agree with you, Matthew Mangina. What more do

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Speaker 1: we know from crime online? Listen?

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Speaker 2: Rita Curran was a twenty four year old woman on

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Speaker 2: summer vacation from her full time job as a beloved

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Speaker 2: second grade school teacher at Milton Elementary School. But rather

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Speaker 2: than the lounge around all summer, Rita decided to move

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Speaker 2: out of her parents home for the very first time

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Speaker 2: and move into an apartment with roommates she didn't know

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Speaker 2: that well, Beverly and Carrie. She also took a job

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Speaker 2: as a maid at the Colonial Motor in and joined

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Speaker 2: a barbershop quartet. She also began taking graduate courses at

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Speaker 2: the University of Vermont.

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Speaker 1: Time stories with Nancy Grace joining me Right now is

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Speaker 1: a very special guest. It's Rita's sister, Mary Campbell. Mary,

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Speaker 1: thank you for.

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Speaker 8: Being with us, Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember when your sister made the decision to

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Speaker 1: move out?

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Speaker 8: So when I moved back home after my graduation, it

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Speaker 8: was decided she was going to move out during that

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Speaker 8: month of June, and she was gone by her birthday

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Speaker 8: June twenty first. I remember going to the apartment and

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Speaker 8: delivering a birthday gift, so she probably had made the

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Speaker 8: decision before I came back home. I just I knew

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Speaker 8: when I went back home that she was going to

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Speaker 8: be trying to live in an apartment.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about the apartment your sister picked out, and

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Speaker 1: how did did she end up with two women she

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Speaker 1: didn't know?

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Speaker 8: It was very common in the Burlington area that if

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Speaker 8: you had an apartment and then you were in school,

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Speaker 8: you wanted to go back to your home state that

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Speaker 8: you sublet in order to hold the apartment so that

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Speaker 8: you have it when you came back in September. It

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Speaker 8: was very common for a roommate, because I had done

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Speaker 8: it myself, for people that were renting to say, Okay,

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Speaker 8: this room is going to be available for the summer,

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Speaker 8: or this room is available for so many months while

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Speaker 8: the other person is gone or they moved out, and

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Speaker 8: we just need this room occupied. And so financially it

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Speaker 8: made sense to do that because it was easier than

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Speaker 8: trying to find an apartment on your own. So there

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Speaker 8: were often ads in the paper that looking for a

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Speaker 8: roommate who would share the expenses of the apartment. At

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Speaker 8: that time, I think it was between my mother and

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Speaker 8: father and Rita, and they just decided this was a

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Speaker 8: good way to try it. You could stay there until September.

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Speaker 8: Then if you want to get your own apartment or

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Speaker 8: have a different apartment with your own friends, but you

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Speaker 8: could try living away from home. She had not lived

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Speaker 8: away from home all through college, so this was sort

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Speaker 8: of a place that had a minimal commitment.

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Speaker 1: You know, that's really interesting, Paul Zike, Foreign Police Commander,

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Speaker 1: Albuquerque author. I'll stop him from killing them. Paul. I

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Speaker 1: did the same thing. I advertised for a roommate and

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Speaker 1: got one and didn't think anything about it. But when

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Speaker 1: I look back on what I did, I realize how

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Speaker 1: wrong in fact that may be. But it's very very common, Paul.

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Speaker 3: It is, and unfortunately most females that are murdered in

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Speaker 3: my thirty years of experience, they know or have some

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Speaker 3: direct association with their attackers. And the fact that you

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Speaker 3: have people coming in and out, you know, maybe looking

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Speaker 3: at your apartment, people that you're talking to about renting

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Speaker 3: a room or cohabitating with you, it tears down a

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Speaker 3: wall between you and them, something that normally would not

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Speaker 3: be crossed, and for the wrong sort of men with

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Speaker 3: the wrong mentality, once that's pulled down, they simply refuse

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Speaker 3: to let go and can become obsessed, stalk and begin

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Speaker 3: to stalk and unfortunately a lot of that leads to

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Speaker 3: sexual assault and other crimes. But it's something that women

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Speaker 3: across America are faced with, especially in today's environment with

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Speaker 3: these dating apps.

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Speaker 1: It's very scary. And in this case, the two roommates

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Speaker 1: were in fact women, So in her mind, what does

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Speaker 1: she have to fear? Now? Take a listen to our

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Speaker 1: friends at crime Online.

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Speaker 2: Rita Curran was out of rehearsal for her barbershop quartet

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Speaker 2: until just after ten pm. When she got home. Her

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Speaker 2: roommates Beverly and Carrie were getting ready to grab a

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Speaker 2: late dinner with another friend and they invited Rita to

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Speaker 2: join them. Read it declined and the trio left around

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Speaker 2: eleven to twenty and Rita prepared to go to bed.

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Speaker 2: Rita's roommates returned home around twelve thirty am was one

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Speaker 2: of their boyfriends, Paul Robinson, and sat up talking until

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Speaker 2: about one thirty am. Beverly Lampierre was about to call

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Speaker 2: it a night and opened the door to the room

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Speaker 2: she shared with Rita and opened the door to a nightmare.

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Speaker 1: Joining me right now is Dave mac investigator, reporter for

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Speaker 1: crimeonline dot com. So we know that they were up

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Speaker 1: that night till one point thirty and it was Rita.

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Speaker 1: The two roommates had come home from the late night

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Speaker 1: dinner and along with them came one of their boyfriends. Correct,

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Speaker 1: that's what we understand. Yes, so I assume that he

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Speaker 1: would probably be the very first suspect.

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Speaker 2: The way that it all played out. He wasn't home,

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Speaker 2: He was not in the apartment when this took place.

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Speaker 2: You have to remember that the Paul Robinson, the boyfriend,

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Speaker 2: and the two of the roommates, they were all out

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Speaker 2: together and they came home together. So he wasn't at

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Speaker 2: the apartment alone with Rita.

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Speaker 1: Did he stay over?

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Speaker 2: According to a couple of reports, yes, that he was

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Speaker 2: in a dating relationship with one of the girls, and

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Speaker 2: he and his girlfriend had gone off to a bedroom

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Speaker 2: when they heard Beverly screaming.

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Speaker 1: I would still put him on a list of suspects

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Speaker 1: if he's in the house, and I would extensively question

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Speaker 1: the female roommate to make sure she really could alibi him,

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Speaker 1: that he really was in the room with her. Whenever

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Speaker 1: you introduce a male in the scenario, immediately they become

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Speaker 1: a suspect. Paul Zike agree or disagree, absolutely, one hundred percent.

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Speaker 3: And I have found that unequivocally to be a point

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Speaker 3: of interest. You look when you find a dead female,

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Speaker 3: You look at who she was last seen with, who

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Speaker 3: was male, who as she has a restraining order against,

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Speaker 3: who she was in a domestic relationship, or who was

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Speaker 3: a friend of a friend who happened to be around.

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Speaker 3: Men see something they want, and sometimes the wrong type

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Speaker 3: of men then act. But you're right, men are the

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Speaker 3: nexus in these cases at.

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Speaker 1: This point, Matthew Mangino, What should cops be doing.

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Speaker 6: Well, Number one, they should be looking very closely at

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Speaker 6: the apartment. They should be that the crime scene should

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Speaker 6: be analyzed for every possibility we're looking for fingerprints, and

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Speaker 6: we're looking for blood, and we're looking for other fibers

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Speaker 6: and things that might be left at the crime scene.

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Speaker 6: And all that evidence has to be preserved, and the

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Speaker 6: area has to be There has to be some method

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Speaker 6: of canvassing the neighborhoods. There has to be some method

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Speaker 6: of reaching out to people who might have sold something.

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Speaker 6: We have a very specific period of time. So at

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Speaker 6: eleven thirty, they leave, they come back at twelve thirty.

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Speaker 1: Now, hold on just a moment, Dave Matt. After the

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Speaker 1: roommates got home, didn't they all stay up and talk.

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Speaker 1: She was still alive at that point. Correct, Well, we

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Speaker 1: don't know.

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Speaker 2: See, Rita was in her bedroom.

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Speaker 1: Ah, got it. But they heard the scream later?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, okay, backing up on the timetable here. They

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Speaker 2: got home together at twelve thirty, and they noticed that

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Speaker 2: Rita's bedroom door was not pulled shut all the way.

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Speaker 2: There was a little bit open. But they began they

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Speaker 2: didn't worry about it. They were talking. Okay, So Rita

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Speaker 2: was not in the room with them talking. She was

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Speaker 2: in her own bedroom, they assumed asleep.

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Speaker 1: I would use the scream as the beginning of the

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Speaker 1: timeline because then they all go to bed, and once

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Speaker 1: in their bedrooms they hear the screen.

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Speaker 2: No, they hear the scream when Beverly goes to bed.

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Speaker 2: Around one thirty in the morning, Beverly and Paul and

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Speaker 2: the other girlfriend, they were all in the living room together.

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Speaker 2: Paul and the girlfriend go off to their bedroom. Beverly

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Speaker 2: goes to her and this is one thirty in the morning.

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Speaker 2: Now they've been home for about an hour. When Beverly

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Speaker 2: then tries to open the door, she sees Rita and screams.

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Speaker 1: Ah okay, I see what she made. I see exactly

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Speaker 1: what you made.

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Speaker 2: I think she said there's something wrong with Rita.

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Speaker 1: Got it? Got it? So one point thirty the scream

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Speaker 1: is the roommate, not Rita. Got it. So the man

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Speaker 1: Gino's correct. It's the timeline between them leaving and them

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Speaker 1: coming back. So there's about a one hour or so,

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Speaker 1: give or take a few minutes timeline window that the

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Speaker 1: murder occurred. What more do we know?

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Speaker 2: Listen, Well, Rita Kurran lived in an apartment with the roommates.

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Speaker 2: Directly above their apartment was a newly married couple, Michelle

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Speaker 2: and William de Ruz. The couple had only been married

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Speaker 2: about two weeks, and police questioned both of them about

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Speaker 2: the activities surrounding the apartments that night. The couple told

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Speaker 2: police they'd been home all night, they didn't hear anything,

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Speaker 2: they didn't see anything. William Deruz was cleared. Three times.

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Speaker 2: Michelle and William de Ruce were questioned about the night

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Speaker 2: of the murder, and all three times they gave the

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Speaker 2: same answer. They were home all night, they didn't hear anything,

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Speaker 2: they didn't see anything. Satisfied inst gators cleared William Deruz,

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Speaker 2: as well as several other persons of interest, and the

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Speaker 2: case went cold.

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Speaker 1: Well, they're doing everything right. Once you clearly alibi the

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Speaker 1: male friend in the apartment, no it's not him, then

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Speaker 1: you immediately go door to door and you extend out

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Speaker 1: and out and out until it's no longer feasible. And

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Speaker 1: of course they start with the upstairs neighbors. Mary Campbell

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Speaker 1: is with us. This is Rita's sister. Mary. Do you

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Speaker 1: recall when you discovered that Rita had been killed?

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Speaker 6: Oh?

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Speaker 8: Yes, I might not be able to recall what we

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Speaker 8: talked about a month before, but I have very vivid

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Speaker 8: recollections of the day that the detectives in the Vermont

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Speaker 8: State Police because we were in Milton, a different town

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Speaker 8: than Burlington. So the Vermont State Police and the detectives

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Speaker 8: came to my mother's back door and told my mother

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Speaker 8: and my grandfather, and then my grandfather just ran to

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Speaker 8: the hallway and hollered to my brother and I Tommy Dookie,

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Speaker 8: which is my nickname, du get Up has been killed,

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Speaker 8: has been killed. And he was frantic. And then I

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Speaker 8: went down to the kitchen and it was my mother

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Speaker 8: and father had a big farmhouse, and the police were there.

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Speaker 8: My mother was by then finding your way to sit down,

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Speaker 8: but she just was bent over and sitting rocking in

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Speaker 8: a straight backed chair holding your head.

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Speaker 1: At that time, did you have any idea your sister

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Speaker 1: had been murdered?

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Speaker 8: Well, yes, we knew that my grandfather had been had

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Speaker 8: said that she was killed, but then by the time

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Speaker 8: we got to the kitchen of the Burbridge change to

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Speaker 8: being murdered.

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Speaker 1: So you kneed very quickly that there was no car

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Speaker 1: crash or accident.

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Speaker 8: No, yes, that's that's what you learn.

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Speaker 7: Very quickly.

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Speaker 8: You think, oh, car crash, you know, accident. She was

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Speaker 8: out out at night driving. That's the first thing you

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Speaker 8: think of hit a deer or whatever, which is very

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Speaker 8: common around here. But then it was quickly it was

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Speaker 8: the murdered, and then it all just sort of hit us,

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Speaker 8: and it was my brother and I and my mother

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Speaker 8: and then my grandfather. My father's sister was out in

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Speaker 8: the cabins and he ran after her and she came

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Speaker 8: in and we were just all there, and my dad

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Speaker 8: was at IBM and he'd already gone to work. They

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Speaker 8: told him that his father had had a heart attack

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Speaker 8: and he needed to get home. So when my father

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Speaker 8: drove in the driveway, he was greeted by his father,

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Speaker 8: so of course he knew something was wrong because they

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Speaker 8: had told him his father had had a heart attack,

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Speaker 8: and then my grandfather told him in the car as

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Speaker 8: he drove in, and my grandfather was sort of the messenger,

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Speaker 8: going around to the different places on our property telling

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Speaker 8: the people that were there, and then it was just

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Speaker 8: very real againing.

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Speaker 1: Did anyone have any idea who could have murdered your sister?

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Speaker 8: Absolutely not. Of course, she had had some different boyfriends

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Speaker 8: over time, and of course they talked to them and

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Speaker 8: did all their testing that they needed to do. They

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Speaker 8: interviewed my father and you know, all of us if

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Speaker 8: we had people that we knew that would do this.

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Speaker 8: And I remember my mother saying at the time, and

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Speaker 8: she said that for many years later, I hope to

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Speaker 8: God that it was never anyone we knew, because we

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Speaker 8: couldn't believe we would know a person who would do that.

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Speaker 1: When you said they talked to your father, they questioned

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Speaker 1: him as a potential suspect.

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Speaker 8: I think they questioned all of us. They questioned, you know,

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Speaker 8: where we were, but we were pretty straightfor everybody was home.

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Speaker 8: You know, it was my brother was home, I was home,

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Speaker 8: and we were just all there.

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Speaker 1: But you know what, that is SOP standard operating procedure.

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Speaker 1: I will never forget when my now friend Phil, the

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Speaker 1: Toronto former firefighter in Long Island, was pulled out of

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Speaker 1: his daughter Karina Vitronto's funeral to give a DNA sample.

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Speaker 1: His daughter is commonly referred to as the Long Island jogger.

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Speaker 1: Karina was found brutally murdered, our teeth knocked out along

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Speaker 1: a job she had intended to take with her father

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Speaker 1: and he didn't go that day, and in her funeral

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Speaker 1: they actually pulled him out to test his DNA. Of course,

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Speaker 1: it did not connect to the killer. But I believe

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Speaker 1: his name is Chanelle Lewis. But yes, that is normal.

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Speaker 1: Isn't that true? Let me ask you this, Matthew Mangino.

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Speaker 1: Isn't it true that especially male family members are questioned

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Speaker 1: and even give their fingerprints a DNA.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, that's not uncommon. You know, certainly you're going to

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Speaker 6: look at people who had some sort of relationship with her,

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Speaker 6: whether her former boyfriend, uh, you know, acquaintances that she

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Speaker 6: had the you know, people that she worked with in

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Speaker 6: the school district. You know, typically when when a a

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Speaker 6: wife is murdered, the husband is going to be the

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Speaker 6: first initial suspect. Uh, And that always is the case

400
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Speaker 6: when your daughter is murdered. Yeah, I think you're going

401
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Speaker 6: to look to the father. You're going to want to

402
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Speaker 6: know a little bit about their relationship in the background

403
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Speaker 6: of the family. But it's uh, you know, it's tragic

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Speaker 6: to pull somebody out of the funeral as the example

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Speaker 6: that you gave to give a DNA sample, Uh, when

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Speaker 6: your when your daughter has been murdered.

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Speaker 1: I think and also factored in that Phil was supposed

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Speaker 1: to go with her on the jog and he didn't go,

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Speaker 1: and he found the body Nancy.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, it's the doctor Jensen.

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Speaker 1: Yes, guys, you're hearing the voice of doctor Jeffrey Jensen,

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Speaker 1: Professor Fransik Pathology, director of Auto and Forensic Services, University

413
00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:08,040
Speaker 1: Michigan Med School, and was medical examiner in Milwaukee County, Wisconsin.

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Speaker 1: Go ahead, doctor Jensen.

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Speaker 7: Investigators, we're basically left with blood typing, primitive blood typing,

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Speaker 7: maybe some kind of trace evidence comparison, like hair or nails,

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Speaker 7: possibly even broken fingernails. In an attack like this, you

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Speaker 7: would expect to have possibly of evidence from the victim

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Speaker 7: to the assailant. There may actually be injuries on the

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Speaker 7: assailant that can be matched or sin in blood underneath

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Speaker 7: the nail of the victim.

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Speaker 1: So, doctor Jeffrey Jensen, you have in fact done rape kids.

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Speaker 1: You have taken the nails and study them from murder victims,

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Speaker 1: and explain to me why you would look under the

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Speaker 1: namel of the murder victim.

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Speaker 7: Well, a victim would, in an attempt to award off

427
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Speaker 7: the attacker, possibly scratch the individual, and that would deposit

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Speaker 7: the assailant's skin and blood underneath and nails. And I

429
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Speaker 7: can't tell you how many cases have been actually solved

430
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Speaker 7: by the recovery of that very valuable evidence on an

431
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Speaker 7: attack like this.

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Speaker 1: And of course with a victim like Rita, you then

433
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Speaker 1: have to do a rape kit on a dead body.

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Speaker 1: And what does that entail, Doctor.

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Speaker 7: Well, it entailed taking samples from the victim, you know,

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Speaker 7: hair samples Colm means swabs, and actually looking for some

437
00:25:55,600 --> 00:26:01,760
Speaker 7: type of semen deposit or other evidence that would indicate

438
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:05,440
Speaker 7: the actual identity of the killer.

439
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:09,679
Speaker 1: Rather, you know, I think that you are airbrushing the truth.

440
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:13,400
Speaker 1: You have to take the dead victim's body. Not only

441
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:15,479
Speaker 1: WI look under the nails, but then you have to

442
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 1: do a pelvic exam of the dead victim. You have

443
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 1: to do a full on vaginal and anal search to

444
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 1: find if there's semen or any other DNA. You have

445
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 1: to comb the pubic hair. You have to look at

446
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:33,400
Speaker 1: the entire skin area around the pubic area for any

447
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 1: epithilial or skin DNA that may have been left there.

448
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 1: It's you have to check the mouth cavity. You have

449
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 1: to check the entire body for potential touch DNA. A

450
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 1: lot goes into it. It takes a long time. Now

451
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 1: I want to circle back to Mary Campbell. This is

452
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 1: Rita's sister joining us today. Now, let me understand, the

453
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 1: Druz did not live directly above your sister, did they.

454
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:04,240
Speaker 8: Oh, that's correct. It was a three story house, three apartments,

455
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:06,400
Speaker 8: and they were on the third floor.

456
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 1: So this was a house, not an apartment complex.

457
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 8: It was an old. Yes, it was an old in

458
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:14,480
Speaker 8: town burling to Vermont in town with a sidewalk in.

459
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 8: And it was a three story house that at one

460
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:20,720
Speaker 8: time was one large home but had been divided into

461
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 8: three apartments. And the Druze people were on the third

462
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,960
Speaker 8: floor and the people in the middle floor were not home.

463
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:31,560
Speaker 1: Speaking of the Druze, take a listen to our cut

464
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:33,160
Speaker 1: seven from Jay Mac.

465
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,000
Speaker 2: William Deruze got married a second time, but according to

466
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,359
Speaker 2: his second wife, he was not a nice man and

467
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 2: had an evil temper. William Deruz's first wife, Michelle, could

468
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:44,440
Speaker 2: have told the truth about the alibi she provided for him,

469
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,760
Speaker 2: but she didn't. Not until much later. The former Michelle

470
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 2: Deruze told police that her husband of two weeks left

471
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 2: their apartment the night Rida Kurrn was murdered, and that

472
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:55,680
Speaker 2: he was mad when he left.

473
00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:59,880
Speaker 1: Okay, wait just a minute, Dave Mac joining us right now,

474
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 1: are you telling me that then? Missus Druze lied he

475
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 1: wasn't there. In fact, he had stormed off after an

476
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:09,920
Speaker 1: argument with her.

477
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 2: Yes, ma'am, that is absolutely correct.

478
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:14,800
Speaker 1: Well, that's not all. Take a listen to this.

479
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:19,240
Speaker 2: The alibi provided by William Druz's wife, Michelle was a lie.

480
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:22,479
Speaker 2: On the night of July twentieth, nineteen seventy one, William

481
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:25,240
Speaker 2: and Michelle Deruze had a big fight. The fight was

482
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 2: big enough that William decided he needed to leave the

483
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 2: apartment and go on a cool down walk. By the

484
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:33,119
Speaker 2: time he got home, Michelle was already asleep. As police

485
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:37,359
Speaker 2: investigated the murder of Rita current, Michelle provided the airtight

486
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:40,160
Speaker 2: alibi for her husband, claiming they were both home all

487
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 2: night and didn't leave the apartment. Shortly after the murder,

488
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:47,720
Speaker 2: William Druze fled to Thailand, where he became a Buddhist monk.

489
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 2: Three years later, in nineteen seventy four, William Druz returned

490
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 2: to the States and settled in San Francisco. He and

491
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:56,840
Speaker 2: Michelle were divorced, and Deru's used some of his training

492
00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 2: in Thailand to become a fairly well known guru the

493
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 2: Bay Area.

494
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 1: Okay, right, stop right there, Dave mac so after their

495
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 1: divorce when the then wife announces he's not a nice

496
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 1: man and ps, I lied about his alibi. You do know,

497
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 1: Dave mack that when you lie to a cop, and

498
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 1: it's on a police report, at the bottom of that

499
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 1: report it says I hear, but I swear that is

500
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 1: all to all of e sens and purposes, that's perjury. Really,

501
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 1: when you lie to a cop, it's dummy down and

502
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 1: diluted by calling it a false report to a cop.

503
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 1: But now she comes out with it. Now she tells

504
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 1: me that they had a big fight and he stopped

505
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:46,880
Speaker 1: off at the time of the murder, and then he

506
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 1: goes to Thailand to become a Buddhist monk.

507
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 2: Are you sure, Nancy, believe it or not? And this

508
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 2: is one of those stories that you look at and

509
00:29:56,000 --> 00:30:00,480
Speaker 2: you keep going back saying this couldn't have happened. But yeah,

510
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 2: they'd only been married two weeks Michelle and William when

511
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 2: this took place, and she lied, just straight up said

512
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:09,720
Speaker 2: he is, we were here all night.

513
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 7: He didn't leave. We didn't leave.

514
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 2: You know, they stayed that course the entire time. And

515
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 2: she kept that to herself. As you said, she lied

516
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:18,600
Speaker 2: I hope they will charge her with a crime.

517
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 9: Well, she had to be lying because she's a free

518
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:24,760
Speaker 9: to him. He was in Thailand for three years. I

519
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 9: think the fear would dissipate. I mean, she was so

520
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:30,000
Speaker 9: afraid she lied to police. And even when he goes

521
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 9: to Thailand to become a Buddhist monk, she's still afraid

522
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 9: and still can't tell the truth. Then he comes back,

523
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 9: goes to San Francisco and becomes a guru.

524
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 1: That means he had followers. Who's following this guy?

525
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 6: Yes, sony. And the thing is, you know, it's one.

526
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:48,240
Speaker 1: Thing for you know, say with him like that to

527
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:51,840
Speaker 1: my husband, he usually says nothing and goes it goes away.

528
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 1: But you're going to continue, aren't you Go ahead.

529
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:56,479
Speaker 6: I'm going to and I get the same thing from

530
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 6: my way, but I continue talking anyway.

531
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 2: But so you know, the issue is here.

532
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 6: You know she knows right then and there you know

533
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 6: somebody one four below had been murdered about the time

534
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 6: he was out of the house on his cooling off

535
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 6: walk and he comes back and says, don't tell anybody

536
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 6: that I left.

537
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 1: Don't tell anybody that I left.

538
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 6: Yeah.

539
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 1: Yes, And as she sat on it for years this woman. No,

540
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:27,960
Speaker 1: I don't think she's the killer, but I definitely think

541
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,600
Speaker 1: she impeded justice. Well, take a listen to Mari Montalbano

542
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:33,640
Speaker 1: with inside addition, while.

543
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:35,720
Speaker 10: They were never able to match the DNA on the

544
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:39,600
Speaker 10: cigarette to anyone in their database, they used genetic genealogy

545
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:40,480
Speaker 10: to get a name.

546
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 9: Our suspect's name William Deruce.

547
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 3: He was a thirty one year old man who lived

548
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:48,160
Speaker 3: upstairs with his wife, Michelle.

549
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 4: The husband and wife gave each other alibis.

550
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 1: She told our detectives a different story the truth.

551
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 10: The truth, investigator say, was that the knight Current was killed.

552
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 10: The couple got into a fight and William Druze left

553
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 10: the apartment for more than an hour, enough time to

554
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:05,640
Speaker 10: have committed the crime.

555
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 1: And more from our friend Sidney Sumner.

556
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:11,720
Speaker 11: Police followed hundreds of tips and leads looking for Rita

557
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 11: Curan's killer. Investigators had thirteen main suspects, but ultimately the

558
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:19,960
Speaker 11: case turned cold. Evidence from the crime scene was carefully preserved,

559
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 11: including Kurran's clothing, a robe, and a cigarette butt found

560
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 11: next to her body. With nothing specific to point to

561
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 11: anyone in their pool of suspects, Kieran's death became the

562
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 11: oldest cold case the Burlington Police Department had. Detective Commander

563
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 11: Jim treeb reopened the case and started from scratch. He

564
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 11: put not a single detective on the case, but treated

565
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 11: the crime as if it had just happened. A team

566
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:45,600
Speaker 11: of detectives and experts came together to review and investigate.

567
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:49,480
Speaker 11: Key pieces of evidence were subjected to new DNA testing,

568
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 11: including the large cigarette butt. Male DNA was found, but

569
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 11: it did not match the DNA of anyone in the

570
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 11: national database or.

571
00:32:57,040 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 1: Their suspect pool.

572
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:02,240
Speaker 11: Last year, more evidence, including Kurran's clothes, was set to

573
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 11: a lab for new DNA extracting techniques, and the cigarette

574
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 11: butt was also submitted again, this time to a genealogy company,

575
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 11: and the testing paid off.

576
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:28,240
Speaker 1: Prime Stories with Nancy Grace with Me now special guest

577
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:33,880
Speaker 1: c Seymour. She's brilliant chief genetic genealogist at Paramon Nano

578
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:40,920
Speaker 1: Labs who helped crack Rita's case. Cec, I can't thank

579
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:43,760
Speaker 1: you enough for being with us. First we hear there's

580
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:46,960
Speaker 1: nothing on the cigarette but a lark. I don't even

581
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 1: remember ever hearing of a lark cigarette but a lark cigarette.

582
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:56,480
Speaker 1: But things changed. Tell me what happened.

583
00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 5: Well, we got incredibly lucky with this case. After fifty

584
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 5: one years, when that DNA was analyzed and we looked

585
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 5: at those hundreds of thousands of genetic markers, created that

586
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 5: file and uploaded it to the family tree DNA database,

587
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:20,080
Speaker 5: we had something happen that rarely happens. We got incredible matches,

588
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:24,239
Speaker 5: a first cousin once removed on the maternal side, and

589
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:27,759
Speaker 5: a first cousin once removed on the paternal side, And

590
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:31,880
Speaker 5: so it only took a couple hours to narrow it

591
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:35,759
Speaker 5: down to just one man, which was William Deruce. He

592
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:38,279
Speaker 5: was the only child of his parents because his mother

593
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 5: had died shortly after his birth, so he was the

594
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 5: only male in the world that would be a first

595
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 5: cousin once removed with each of these top matches, and

596
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 5: so it was really very straightforward. After all these decades

597
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:57,799
Speaker 5: of investigation, it came down to just building a very

598
00:34:57,840 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 5: straightforward tree.

599
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:01,520
Speaker 1: Well, you know more, when you say it like that,

600
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:05,720
Speaker 1: it sounds so easy, But you're hearing doctor Jeffrey Jensen

601
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:13,800
Speaker 1: with US from Wisconsin describing the elaborate process of processing

602
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:19,440
Speaker 1: a dead body and trying desperately to find DNA and

603
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:22,120
Speaker 1: then you say, oh, it was easy. I don't think it, issy.

604
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:26,439
Speaker 1: I think it's easy to use CC, but explore, say

605
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:27,480
Speaker 1: my part of it.

606
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:32,840
Speaker 5: There were generations of detectives and analysts, crime scene investigators

607
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:36,120
Speaker 5: that did not have an easy time. That's the point

608
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 5: I'm making is after all of this difficult investigation for

609
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:42,120
Speaker 5: decades and all the people who poured their heart and

610
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:45,800
Speaker 5: soul into it, when it came to me, it really

611
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:49,480
Speaker 5: was straightforward. This was one of the most straightforward cases

612
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 5: I've ever worked in investigative genetic genealogy.

613
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 1: So Sace, let me understand. While the suspect, William Deruce,

614
00:35:57,560 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 1: who was thirty one years old at the time of

615
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:03,600
Speaker 1: the murder, had not given DNA, you're saying you built

616
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:07,200
Speaker 1: out a quote family tree of DNA when you find

617
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 1: similar DNA where people had uploaded DNA in these ancestry

618
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:16,040
Speaker 1: dot com family tree twenty three and meters type sites.

619
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:20,360
Speaker 1: So you find something similar, so you know the killer.

620
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:22,360
Speaker 1: What did it come from? The cigarette butt or the

621
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:25,360
Speaker 1: rape kit? It came from the cigarette butt, so saliva,

622
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:29,960
Speaker 1: you know that these people are related to the killer.

623
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 5: Correct, So the only reason you would to share significant

624
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 5: amounts of DNA with someone is if you have a

625
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 5: common ancestor. So each of these people shared about six

626
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 5: and a half percent of their DNA and that meant

627
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:44,960
Speaker 5: that they're going to share either grandparents or great grandparents

628
00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:48,040
Speaker 5: with the suspect. Because this happened so long ago, when

629
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:50,319
Speaker 5: he was older, he's more likely going to be the

630
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:55,920
Speaker 5: older generation. So their great grandparents are his grandparents. And

631
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 5: so that amount of DNA is extremely significant and invest

632
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:04,839
Speaker 5: negative genetic geneology. It wouldn't hit in a law enforcement database,

633
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 5: but in a family tree DNA database where we're looking

634
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 5: for distant cousins. That's going to be right up at

635
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 5: that top of the lyric.

636
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:14,280
Speaker 1: And how does it make you feel, daughter, Jeffrey Jensen?

637
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:18,840
Speaker 1: Every time you process. I didn't use process because it

638
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:23,400
Speaker 1: sounds like maybe someone digging through a paper file. But

639
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:31,319
Speaker 1: when you perform an autopsy that somehow, maybe decades later, you,

640
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:36,160
Speaker 1: along with someone like ccmore, can bring a killer to justice.

641
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:41,920
Speaker 7: Nancy, it just reinforces the basic concepts of autopsy work.

642
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:49,359
Speaker 7: You know, it's just you know, taking time to collect samples,

643
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 7: taking photographs, and most important is maintaining the evidence in

644
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 7: a chain of custody so it can be used as evidence,

645
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:04,440
Speaker 7: you know, years and decades later, but it just it

646
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:10,280
Speaker 7: just points to the fact that even basic uh evidence

647
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:16,440
Speaker 7: collection is so important in solving these these tragic crimes.

648
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 1: And to Mary Campbell, this is Rita's sister. It's amazing.

649
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:24,279
Speaker 1: At the time that police collected that Lark cigarette buck,

650
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:29,279
Speaker 1: they had no idea how it would transform into a

651
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:33,320
Speaker 1: DNA match. They could not fathom the world of DNA

652
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:36,560
Speaker 1: at the time Rita was murdered. My question to you is,

653
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:40,319
Speaker 1: over all the years since your sister's murder, did you

654
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:42,920
Speaker 1: ever give up hope at any point that the killer

655
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:43,560
Speaker 1: would be caught?

656
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:47,759
Speaker 8: Yes, I think we. I think at the fiftieth we

657
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:52,879
Speaker 8: released a statement through the Burlington Prepress that that would

658
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:56,840
Speaker 8: probably be the final year that we would be participating

659
00:38:56,920 --> 00:39:04,360
Speaker 8: in any kind of historical update on the case, etc. Pictures,

660
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:09,120
Speaker 8: because we felt that after fifty years we had two generations,

661
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:13,280
Speaker 8: our children and our grandchildren. We thought it was time

662
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:20,160
Speaker 8: that we stopped doing any more publicity about the case.

663
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:24,839
Speaker 8: So at that point there was sort of a give

664
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:28,759
Speaker 8: up of hope, but our faith would never allow us

665
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:34,200
Speaker 8: to give up our hope. We saw our parents die

666
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:39,600
Speaker 8: without knowing we knew what happened to our parents when

667
00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:44,960
Speaker 8: she died, and how their lives changed. So we didn't

668
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:49,880
Speaker 8: give We never really gave up our faith hope, but

669
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 8: we did give up probably our physical hope. If there's

670
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:55,640
Speaker 8: a difference.

671
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 1: What did happen to your parents, you said you stood

672
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:00,560
Speaker 1: by and watched what happened to your parents when.

673
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:04,920
Speaker 8: It first happened, I would say my mother prides were hollow.

674
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:11,919
Speaker 8: It's just the grief that my mother carried was very hard,

675
00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:14,960
Speaker 8: and my father as well. But a man doesn't always

676
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:16,879
Speaker 8: show his griefs in the same way.

677
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 6: But they.

678
00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 8: Refused to let this killer take them, and they following

679
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:29,719
Speaker 8: my sister's death, they were involved with every community activity

680
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:33,360
Speaker 8: you could mention. They surrounded themselves with the community of

681
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 8: Milton that supported them. They knew their story and they

682
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 8: sat with them at meetings and they didn't have to

683
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:44,279
Speaker 8: give any kind of explanation. Their friends knew, and so

684
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:47,799
Speaker 8: they stayed in the community and they gave back their

685
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:52,320
Speaker 8: entire life, and that's how they survived. They didn't take pills,

686
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:56,279
Speaker 8: they didn't take drinks. They had their faith, they had

687
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:58,719
Speaker 8: their rosary beads, and they had their community.

688
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:01,160
Speaker 1: That was a change a life. Now that the case

689
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:01,960
Speaker 1: has been solved.

690
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:04,839
Speaker 8: Well, I think it's a it's a it's a it's

691
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:10,720
Speaker 8: a good relief, it's a it's a big exhale. We're

692
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 8: we're at peace with what happened. We there were so

693
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:17,400
Speaker 8: many rumors when my sister was killed. Did she was

694
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:21,799
Speaker 8: she involved with some nefarious dag or did she did

695
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:24,839
Speaker 8: she have a fight with somebody? Did someone try to

696
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 8: get at her because they were mad at my father,

697
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:30,920
Speaker 8: my brother, myself wasn't mistaken identity because she had not

698
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:36,840
Speaker 8: been in that que that uh, that the apartment very long,

699
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:39,480
Speaker 8: and did they want the person who was in there

700
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:42,440
Speaker 8: before her? And so there were a lot of rumors,

701
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 8: and as it ended up, she was in the wrong

702
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:49,520
Speaker 8: place at the wrong time. She was totally innocent of anything.

703
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:56,239
Speaker 8: She never did anything wrong, and we we have that piece.

704
00:41:56,640 --> 00:42:02,279
Speaker 1: This case solved. Nancy Grace story signing off good Bye,

705
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 1: sid