1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:01,840 Speaker 1: Have you been seeing all this stuff going on with 2 00:00:01,880 --> 00:00:03,200 Speaker 1: the USPS? 3 00:00:03,279 --> 00:00:07,480 Speaker 2: Yes, honey, I am disgusted. 4 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:12,799 Speaker 1: Yeah, the USPS is so critical to everything. I don't understand, 5 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:16,600 Speaker 1: like how we can even be considering moving this money 6 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:18,680 Speaker 1: around and not giving it to them, Like how are 7 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:22,079 Speaker 1: we going to even function? I can't imagine life without 8 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:23,280 Speaker 1: the USPS. 9 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 2: Yes, and you know I love to send a letter. 10 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 2: Everybody and my family worked at the post office growing up, 11 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 2: so I am wed to the post office. I used 12 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 2: to collect stamps as a kid. Okay, so yes, I 13 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:38,839 Speaker 2: used to collect stamps, stamps, and X Men cars. Those 14 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 2: are the things I collected. I collected POGs, Oh, I 15 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 2: remember those. Yes, I know what you were supposed to 16 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 2: do with them. 17 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 1: I didn't know. I just had a little tupperware container 18 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:51,040 Speaker 1: full of them, just looked at them and that was it. 19 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 2: I think the pog came before the beanie baby, right. 20 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 1: I think so. And I didn't have a single beanie baby. 21 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:57,640 Speaker 1: Do y'all still have y'all beanie babies? 22 00:00:57,680 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 2: They're dusty if you still have them, I know that 23 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 2: unless you are they machine washable. 24 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:02,960 Speaker 1: Don't they got beans on the inside? 25 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 2: All those beans come out? 26 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:07,119 Speaker 1: You got enough beans? To make a bean back chair. 27 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:13,200 Speaker 1: Repurpose those things you reduce, reuse, recycle. I'm t T 28 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 1: and I'm Zachiah and from Spotify. This is dope Labs. 29 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 2: Everybody's talking about buying stamps and showing their books to stamps. 30 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 2: My favorite stamp right now is the Marvin Gaye stamp. 31 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 2: It's hard to find them. It's hard to find. 32 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 1: I'm just this is something I did not know about 33 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 1: my friend, and it makes complete sense. 34 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 2: Actually, you haven't been paying attention to the stamps. 35 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 1: I send you no Okay, so zakiya. When anything big 36 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 1: happens or anything that she feels like is significant in 37 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 1: your life, she will send you a really really nice 38 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:11,640 Speaker 1: card with a note in it. I still have some 39 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 1: of them where she's saying congratulations, I'm so proud of you, 40 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:17,839 Speaker 1: handwritten everything, so so nice. But I have never paid 41 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:18,919 Speaker 1: attention to the stamp. 42 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 2: What the stamp is always on brand, it's on themes. Okay, 43 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:25,079 Speaker 2: you need to go back. If you have those envelopes, 44 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:27,639 Speaker 2: I do not post at these for the postcards you 45 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:28,920 Speaker 2: should be able to see. 46 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 1: Okay, well, I don't have the envelopes, but I trust 47 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 1: that they were on brand because the card itself was 48 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 1: always on Brandy. I always had a black woman on 49 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 1: the front. They're always very, very good. So let's talk 50 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 1: about why folks have been stepping up to support the USPS. 51 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 2: The post Office, or the United States Postal Service, is 52 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 2: operated by the federal government, and for many years it's 53 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 2: been operating at a deficit. So that's like a business 54 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 2: is running and you're not turn a profit. But the 55 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 2: thing to remember is that most federal agencies operated as 56 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 2: a deficit in. The post Office is the only one 57 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 2: that doesn't get money from the government to operate, and 58 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:14,800 Speaker 2: so it was really hit hard. Just like we talked 59 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:18,119 Speaker 2: about individuals taking a loss in a really bad financial 60 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 2: hit from coronavirus, the post Office had the same thing. 61 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:23,399 Speaker 1: And then on top of all of that, we get 62 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:26,800 Speaker 1: a new Postmaster General who says that he's going to 63 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 1: be using these cost cutting mechanisms and that would limit 64 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 1: the reach of the USPS. 65 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 2: So basically, our postal service is in trouble. 66 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 1: One of the ways you can support the USPS is 67 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 1: by sending more letters, and for me, that's kind of 68 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 1: like a double his sword. I want to support the USPS, 69 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 1: but I really hate my handwriting, so I don't want 70 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:56,839 Speaker 1: to do that. And my printer is out of ink, 71 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 1: so typing something up is kind of like out of 72 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 1: the question. I need to pray just more ink. And 73 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 1: I don't want people to know what my handwriting looks like. 74 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 1: I go to great lengths to shield everyone from my handwriting. 75 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 2: Everybody join me in this moment of lifting tt in 76 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 2: that handwriting up. 77 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 1: Once you see it, you're gonna put it right back down. 78 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 2: I welcome those bubble letters. 79 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:25,840 Speaker 1: See, I don't want to be described as someone that 80 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 1: had that writes in bubble letters like I'm not eight, 81 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 1: I'm not eight years old. 82 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:33,840 Speaker 2: I'm a girl. That's the way I'm saying it. Those 83 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 2: voluptuous strokes. What about that? 84 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 1: Your handwriting thick with two c's okay? So our question 85 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 1: is about our writing because since we're going to be 86 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:56,919 Speaker 1: supporting the USPS more, it got us thinking about writing, 87 00:04:57,040 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 1: different people's writing styles, how we learn to write, and 88 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:03,840 Speaker 1: so we just had more questions than answers, and so 89 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 1: we thought we would dig into it. 90 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 2: Take it to the experts. Today's lab is about written languages, 91 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 2: specifically alphabetic. 92 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:16,480 Speaker 1: Languages with alphabetic languages like English, Greek, or Russian, each 93 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 1: written symbol corresponds to an individual sound. The difference between 94 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 1: alphabetic and non alphabetic systems is that non alphabetic languages 95 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:28,920 Speaker 1: have written symbols that correspond to larger groups of sound, 96 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:33,480 Speaker 1: like syllables or whole words like Chinese. Let's get into 97 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:38,480 Speaker 1: the recitation. What do we know? We know writing is important, yes, 98 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 1: and we know that everybody writes differently. I think that's it. 99 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 1: I think that's all that we know about about handwriting sadly, 100 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:50,600 Speaker 1: So what do we want to know? 101 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 2: I think I need to know more about how we 102 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 2: actually learn to write, what's happening in our brains? 103 00:05:56,560 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I want to know the history of writing, 104 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 1: because I mean, it's definitely changed over time, I think. 105 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:07,719 Speaker 1: And so I just want to know, like how it 106 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:10,159 Speaker 1: all started and how we got to this place that 107 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:10,840 Speaker 1: we are now. 108 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 2: And I think the million dollar question, you know, we 109 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 2: see it in different places. Does handwriting have much meaning? 110 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:20,279 Speaker 2: Does it say something about who you are? Right? 111 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:22,719 Speaker 1: Because I would like to believe that the way that 112 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:26,599 Speaker 1: I write and the judgment I receive is unfounded, like 113 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 1: no base and those two things don't there's no connection. 114 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:33,679 Speaker 2: Whoever's judging TT you need to stop it right. 115 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:38,599 Speaker 1: Now, it's probably mostly me judging myself, Like I'll write 116 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 1: a sentence, I'll be like, oh girl, type Itney. 117 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:50,640 Speaker 2: Free you from that. Let's jump into the dissection. So listen, 118 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 2: this is a very broad subject. There's a lot that 119 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:54,840 Speaker 2: we want to unpack here. 120 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 1: Yes, and I mean, we can't fit everything that has 121 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 1: to do with the language into this episode, but there's 122 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 1: a lot of things that we're going to hit and 123 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:08,480 Speaker 1: we have the perfect person to take us through it all. 124 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 3: My name is Bob Wiley, and I'm an assistant professor 125 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 3: in the Department of Psychology at the University of North Carolina, Greensborough. 126 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 2: Doctor Wylie's area of focus is on written language and 127 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 2: specifically how learning affects perception and how cognitive psychology can 128 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 2: be used to improve learning outcomes. And when you study 129 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 2: letters for a living, doctor Wyllie says, you start to 130 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 2: see them everywhere. 131 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 3: Oh it's bad. I see them in places that they're not, 132 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:34,600 Speaker 3: you know, Like I'm looking at your door behind you 133 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 3: right now, and I see l's and t's in there 134 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 3: right I see letters all the time. 135 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 1: And he's not making this up. We started by asking 136 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 1: doctor Wylie where letters actually come from and he says, 137 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 1: they're all around us. 138 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 3: There's a fascinating theory about so why do our letters 139 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 3: look the way they do? And so people have looked 140 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 3: at all the different written languages across the world and 141 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 3: across history, and so what they found is that there 142 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 3: are certain shapes like an L, a T, and X 143 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 3: those are different that seem to come up across the 144 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 3: world's languages. And what they found is that the prevalence 145 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 3: how common those are seems to match with how commonly 146 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 3: we see those types of intersections in nature. 147 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:18,679 Speaker 2: If you think about the way a tree trunk meets 148 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:21,640 Speaker 2: the ground, that's a vertical line hitting a horizontal line 149 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 2: that forms a T like intersection. So what doctor Wily 150 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 2: is saying is that the intersections that actually occur in 151 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 2: nature more often seem to be the ones that we 152 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 2: see more often in our written language as well. 153 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:34,199 Speaker 1: I'm looking at my window right now, and based on that, 154 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:37,840 Speaker 1: I do see a lot of x's, a lot of t's, 155 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:40,439 Speaker 1: and a lot of l's. Like I'm looking at this 156 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 1: brick house next door, and I see l's, I see t's. 157 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 1: When I look in the window, I see well, not 158 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:51,559 Speaker 1: in the window at the window, I'm not looking. 159 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 2: Into the way. I don't know. You probably got tom. 160 00:08:55,080 --> 00:09:00,120 Speaker 2: You gotta keep folks. I see l's and t's. That's 161 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 2: so crazy. There's a lot of A frame houses. How 162 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 2: come we don't have p framed houses? And you frame 163 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:06,560 Speaker 2: you want to live in a U house? 164 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 1: No, no, you. My friend would complain. 165 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 2: She would not like, and you're complaining. 166 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:14,559 Speaker 1: Now you're complaining clothes. 167 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:20,000 Speaker 2: Aside from the intersections that we commonly see in nature, 168 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 2: early adaptations of letters were also derived from pictures or 169 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 2: symbols of the objects they represent. 170 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:27,599 Speaker 3: So when you go back and you look at the 171 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 3: earliest forms of languages, they were pictographic. So they started. 172 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:35,679 Speaker 3: What people would do is they would draw a shape, 173 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 3: you know, so to write the word son, you draw 174 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 3: a shape of the sun. 175 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 1: So from there people were like, okay, I have this 176 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:46,440 Speaker 1: symbol which means son. And the first sound of the 177 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:50,840 Speaker 1: word son is the S sound, so sun. So from 178 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 1: there they were like, okay, I can use this symbol 179 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 1: just to represent the S sound. 180 00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 2: Doctor Wilie gave us another example of how the letter 181 00:09:59,160 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 2: A came about. 182 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:04,080 Speaker 3: Out A was alip, which was the word for ox. 183 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 3: And you can still kind of see it if you 184 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:09,200 Speaker 3: turn an a upside down and it looks like an 185 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:11,880 Speaker 3: ox or like a cow with its horns. So that's 186 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 3: where that came from. 187 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 1: And doctor Wiley says that this is true for a 188 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:19,559 Speaker 1: lot of letters, that they all started from pictographic representation 189 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:23,679 Speaker 1: of an object and then over time it slowly became 190 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:26,079 Speaker 1: what we know as our alphabet today. 191 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:28,960 Speaker 3: Writing is slow drawing pictures. I mean, can you imagine 192 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:32,480 Speaker 3: if we had to draw our emojis? It would take 193 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 3: so long. And so as languages developed and in order 194 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:41,079 Speaker 3: to be faster, they changed their shapes. They became simplified. 195 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 2: He also brought up another good point that affects the 196 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 2: way we have our written alphabet now, and that's the 197 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:49,440 Speaker 2: tools that were available. 198 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:51,439 Speaker 3: So if you look at a culture where they were 199 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:55,320 Speaker 3: using a stylus in clay, that led to different types 200 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 3: of shapes than if you were using a brush and ink. 201 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 3: If you're putting a chisel and stone. That's because you 202 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 3: can manipulate those things differently. It's easier or harder to 203 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 3: make different shapes. And so that actually ended up influencing 204 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:07,679 Speaker 3: what our letters look like. 205 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 1: Imagine trying to write the letter S with a chisel 206 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 1: and stone. 207 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 2: It's not happening. 208 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 1: That's gonna be way too hard. That's a lot of 209 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:16,560 Speaker 1: chipping that you got to do. But the letter X, 210 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 1: that's very easy. 211 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 2: It's crazy to think that those things determine the letters 212 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:25,320 Speaker 2: that we ended up learning in kindergarten or whenever we 213 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 2: learned them. Do you remember, you. 214 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 1: Know, sometimes I have little memories of when I could 215 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:33,559 Speaker 1: not read, and I was trying to figure out how 216 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 1: to read because I knew kind of like what certain 217 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 1: letters sounded like. But then you know, you get to 218 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:43,079 Speaker 1: certain words and that letter doesn't sound like that, a 219 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 1: C sounds like an S, and being very confused. 220 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:47,679 Speaker 3: I mean, I don't have to tell you right. English 221 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:49,880 Speaker 3: is a mess, right, Even C isn't always cut right. 222 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:52,720 Speaker 3: Sometimes it's like circle. I don't say. Actually, when I 223 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:55,320 Speaker 3: was a kid, I used to say kirkle because to me, 224 00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 3: I was like C camp be both uh and cu. 225 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:02,440 Speaker 3: So either it's a circle, but it can't you know, 226 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:04,080 Speaker 3: you can't mix them. But it took me a while 227 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:06,959 Speaker 3: to figure that out. That's a that's a problem English has. 228 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 2: The only thing I remember from the actual learning part 229 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 2: of reading and writing was trying to figure out what 230 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 2: my parents were spelling to each other. I know they 231 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 2: were spelling it, so I wouldn't know exactly that. I 232 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 2: was like, what is that? 233 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 1: No secrets kept from my friend Zakia. So she's like, 234 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 1: I've got to learn how to read quick quickly. I 235 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 1: think all of our parents did that when they didn't 236 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 1: want to want us to know what was going on. 237 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:35,720 Speaker 2: You know, when we take all of that into account, 238 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:40,720 Speaker 2: it's really crazy to think that your ease of or 239 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:43,720 Speaker 2: your mastery of the written language depends on things that 240 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 2: happened so long ago, like when you were three, four 241 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 2: and five. Doctor Wilie really helped us hone in the 242 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 2: importance of those early years. 243 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:56,079 Speaker 3: Something we have to keep in mind about written language, 244 00:12:56,480 --> 00:12:58,080 Speaker 3: like one of the biggest things that makes it different 245 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:02,200 Speaker 3: from spoken languages you have to learn it. So you know, 246 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 3: you probably know that a child will learn any language 247 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 3: you know, verbal that it grows up around effortlessly. No 248 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:11,960 Speaker 3: one has to teach them. You just learn your language. 249 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 3: And that's not the case with written language. You have 250 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 3: to be instructed to learn it. 251 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:20,600 Speaker 2: That's such a good point, right, It's not inherent the 252 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 2: ability to write and read. Somebody has to teach it, 253 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 2: and so much of your ability to do this rest 254 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:32,760 Speaker 2: on the access to quality education at a young age. 255 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 1: And throughout history there have been people who have been 256 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 1: denied that access. And it is only in very recent 257 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 1: history that people have been allowed to learn how to 258 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 1: read and write. 259 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 3: Up until not that long ago, very very few people 260 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:51,840 Speaker 3: could read and write, you know, so you think that, oh, 261 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:54,400 Speaker 3: but they had written language in ancient Egypt, and you're like, sure, 262 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:57,600 Speaker 3: for twenty people who are like recording things in the court, right, Like, 263 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:00,160 Speaker 3: no one, hardly anyone knew how to do this. 264 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:01,960 Speaker 1: This wasn't granted at the same time to all. 265 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 2: People, and it's not at the same level, even though 266 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 2: it's granted now, definitely not at the same level. In fact, 267 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:11,320 Speaker 2: a lot of schools now are de emphasizing the importance 268 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:13,840 Speaker 2: of learning handwriting since so many of us are using 269 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 2: phones and computers to write keyboards. 270 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 3: Basically, cursive has mostly gone from schools, and even just 271 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 3: the time given to handwriting it's really decreased because it's 272 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 3: not part of them, right, it's not technically science, technology, 273 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 3: education or math. But you know what some of us 274 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 3: always point is, you don't do any of those things 275 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 3: without reading and writing. Like, please try to do a 276 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 3: science project without reading something. Please try to do that, 277 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 3: it's not going to happen. And I think there are 278 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 3: getting seminis that there are costs to this shift away 279 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 3: from the actual handwriting. 280 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 2: Aspect, and it's not just about needing to write in 281 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 2: order to study other subjects. Writing by hand also helps 282 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:56,560 Speaker 2: us actually learn better. 283 00:14:56,680 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 3: You can, for example, take people who either children who 284 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 3: are still just learning language or adults learning in new alphabets, 285 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 3: so as they're learning the letters, they actually learned to 286 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 3: write them by hand. There's all kinds of benefits. So 287 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 3: in terms of behavior, they are going to memorize those 288 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 3: letters more quickly, they're going to retain them for longer 289 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 3: compared to if you just study them visually or if 290 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 3: you learn them by typing as well. 291 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 1: And this rings true for me specifically, because that is 292 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 1: the way that I learned pretty much all things. And 293 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 1: it started in high school for me when I realized, oh, 294 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 1: my goodness, I think I've cracked the code on how 295 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 1: to really memorize or learn some things. Because I was 296 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 1: awful in biology, just awful. It was really really hard 297 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 1: for me to remember all of these things. So what 298 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 1: I started doing was this. If my teacher said, oh, 299 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 1: we're going to be having a quiz on chapter three. 300 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 1: I would read chapter three and then I would write 301 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 1: the entire chapter. So I would look at each word 302 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 1: and write them down in a separate notebook. And when 303 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 1: I did that, I felt like everything was like being reinforced. 304 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 1: It was like pouring concrete over all that information. And 305 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 1: so writing in my own handwriting definitely has a strong 306 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 1: link to learning for me. 307 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 2: For me, it's also reading handwriting that makes a difference 308 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 2: for me if I have notes and I go back 309 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 2: and I can remember things like I can see, oh, 310 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 2: I wrote this. There has also been some evidence about 311 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 2: the tie in for other people reading handwriting. It's also 312 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 2: a teaching strategy where folks are adding handwriting to type 313 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 2: texts to help you retain information. 314 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 3: So what do we know about why that might be. Well, 315 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 3: here's a few things we know about that. When we 316 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 3: look at things like letters, we don't just look at 317 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 3: the pattern in terms of a static image. We also 318 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 3: automatically think about how was that created? And this is 319 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 3: especially true when we're reading handwriting as opposed to print. 320 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 3: And that's why when people are reading, we see all 321 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:04,399 Speaker 3: kinds of activity in the motor part of the brain, 322 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 3: there's a lot of activity in the part of the 323 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 3: brain that you use for writing. Even when you're not writing, 324 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:12,359 Speaker 3: you can just be laying there board as hell looking 325 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 3: at words, and that part of your brain that thinks 326 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 3: about how would I write that, it's very, very active, 327 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 3: and so that seems to be part of why it's 328 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:24,360 Speaker 3: so important to have that handwriting experience because we actually 329 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 3: use that not just for writing, we also use that 330 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:27,879 Speaker 3: for reading. 331 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 1: So we've learned a lot about writing from a historical perspective, 332 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:36,200 Speaker 1: but also psychological and sociological. We're going to take a 333 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:38,200 Speaker 1: quick break and when we get back, we're going to 334 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:42,159 Speaker 1: talk all about the biological aspects of writing and reading. 335 00:17:42,800 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 1: What's actually happening in our brains. And we're back, let's 336 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 1: actually talk about the brain and what's happening when we 337 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:06,919 Speaker 1: see letters. 338 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:08,960 Speaker 2: So the first stage is a stimulus. This is just 339 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:10,720 Speaker 2: seeing letters on the page. 340 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:13,120 Speaker 3: When we look at say just a single word, right 341 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 3: like cat when you are a fluent reader. All right, 342 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:18,399 Speaker 3: so let's just talk about adults. It's a separate thing. 343 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:20,119 Speaker 3: You know, with children who are in they're first learning, 344 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:22,200 Speaker 3: but once you're adult and you know how to read, 345 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:25,439 Speaker 3: all that process it's automatized to the point that you 346 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:28,919 Speaker 3: cannot help but recognize that word. And that's because the 347 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:32,640 Speaker 3: average adult has read billions of letters. By the time 348 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 3: they're say forty or fifty, you've seen billions of letters. 349 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 3: And so one of the things that's so crazy about 350 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 3: that is there aren't that many things like you know, 351 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 3: that many objects that we get that much exposure to. 352 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:47,680 Speaker 2: This relates back to what doctor Wiley was saying earlier 353 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:50,919 Speaker 2: about the origins of letters. We see them everywhere, not 354 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 2: just in nature, but in our day to day lives. 355 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 2: We're just exposed to letters all the time. 356 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:58,919 Speaker 3: What we do really quickly when we're reading is we 357 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 3: actually abstract from what we're seeing. Whether I write kat 358 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:05,919 Speaker 3: by hand, or I see it typed in you know, 359 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:09,480 Speaker 3: capital letters, or I see it in lowercase letters, we 360 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:12,920 Speaker 3: really quickly abstract away that information at some level is 361 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:14,399 Speaker 3: sort of discarded by the brain. 362 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:17,200 Speaker 2: Your brain takes what it needs and it discards everything else. 363 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:20,400 Speaker 2: It doesn't care about the font, if it's handwritten or tight, 364 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 2: the color, none of that matters. It just goes straight 365 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 2: to processing. 366 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 1: So once you've taken in c at there's actually two 367 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:31,160 Speaker 1: routes that the brain can take to process that information. 368 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:33,639 Speaker 3: So the first route we call the phonological route. 369 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:37,119 Speaker 2: Phonological is sounding it out. You're using your memory, but 370 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:39,480 Speaker 2: you're trying to remember the sounds of each letter. So 371 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 2: C is A T to cat cat. 372 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:46,439 Speaker 3: And then we go into our long term memory, and 373 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 3: that long term memory is for the sounds of words. 374 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:51,359 Speaker 3: So then we're searching. We're saying, okay, have I heard 375 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 3: that sound cat? And then you say, oh yeah, I 376 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 3: have that story in my long term memory. And then 377 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:00,240 Speaker 3: I say, oh yeah, cat, it's an animal, it's feeling, 378 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:02,680 Speaker 3: it's a pet. And that's how we identify the word 379 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:05,879 Speaker 3: through a phonological route. But we have another route, and 380 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 3: it's an orthographic route. 381 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 2: Orthographic is when I see these string of letters, I 382 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:14,359 Speaker 2: remember they mean a thing. So it's the string of 383 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:17,439 Speaker 2: letters and remembering the meaning. No sound is associated with this. 384 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 2: You're skipping the sound all together. 385 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:22,120 Speaker 3: What it does. It says I have this abstract representation 386 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 3: that the letters are C, A, and T, and then 387 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:27,919 Speaker 3: we go into our long term memory, not for the sound, 388 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:31,080 Speaker 3: but just have I seen this string of letters in 389 00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 3: this order? And then I say, oh yes, When I 390 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 3: see that string of letters, it means a fee line, 391 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:38,479 Speaker 3: a small animal, a pet, all of that. So what 392 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 3: we do is we always do that when we see 393 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 3: any word, we try in both ways to figure out 394 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 3: that word. We try to sound it out basically, and 395 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 3: we just try to find a memory for that string. 396 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 1: So it's like you see the letters c at and 397 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:52,879 Speaker 1: then they shoot off the gun, and it's like whoever 398 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 1: gets there first is the winner. Even as an adult, 399 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:57,359 Speaker 1: when you get to a word that you don't know. 400 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 2: That's so funny. I don't feel the orthological as much. 401 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 2: I do recognize when I shift back to phonological absolutely, 402 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 2: And sometimes there's a little trick where I do a 403 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:09,400 Speaker 2: blend of both. You know, when we see a new 404 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:12,919 Speaker 2: word in science or medicine and probably engineering too, we 405 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:16,119 Speaker 2: have some tricks from root words that we've learned Latin 406 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:18,240 Speaker 2: or Greek that help us kind of make sense of 407 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:20,679 Speaker 2: what a word might mean. And those things aren't related 408 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:22,959 Speaker 2: to sound. It is when I see this string of letters, 409 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:26,359 Speaker 2: like even phonological pho in, I know that is sound 410 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 2: right or ortho oh r thho, I know that is 411 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:33,480 Speaker 2: correct or straight right. And immediately when I brought up orthological, 412 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:38,840 Speaker 2: you said orthodontis orthopedic, these brains are amazing bruh, honestly, 413 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 2: Or do you remember that meme where they say Cambridge 414 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 2: University scientists have figured out even when letters are jumbled 415 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 2: in between, as long as you can see the first 416 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:50,760 Speaker 2: letter in the last letter, you can understand this passage. 417 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 2: Do you remember that? Yes? 418 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 1: I remember it, and I remember being like, oh my gosh, 419 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:57,760 Speaker 1: look how advanced my brain is. I don't even need 420 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:01,240 Speaker 1: these letters to be in order. Your girls smart and 421 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:05,879 Speaker 1: doctor Wiley definitely just made me feel. 422 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 2: Duped. 423 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 3: What happened in that thing is that they were really 424 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 3: careful about how they jumbled the words. So there are 425 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:18,120 Speaker 3: some words where it's true that if you switch around 426 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:20,400 Speaker 3: the letters you still know what that is. So say, 427 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 3: we're like judge j u dge. If you see ju 428 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 3: gde right, if it looks like jug d you know 429 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,680 Speaker 3: that that's judge, because there's nothing else that looks like that. 430 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:33,639 Speaker 3: So they're careful that they only use words like that. 431 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:36,359 Speaker 3: And I think we're like calm. If you switch the 432 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 3: A and the L and calm, you get clam and 433 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:42,119 Speaker 3: now it's a different word. So we actually can't just 434 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:43,359 Speaker 3: jumble letters around. 435 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, So in that fake study that they put out. 436 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:51,159 Speaker 1: They were very intentional about the words that they chose, 437 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 1: and they had us all out here thinking that our 438 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:56,159 Speaker 1: brains worked a certain way that they don't. 439 00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 2: Doctor Wylie tells us, we're not really good at knowing 440 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 2: exactly the order of letters when we're looking at them. 441 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:05,480 Speaker 2: So there's a question of what we actually know when 442 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:07,439 Speaker 2: we figure out what a word is, and when you 443 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:10,359 Speaker 2: feel like you know it, what concrete things do you 444 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,480 Speaker 2: know about it? And I think that's what scientists are 445 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 2: still trying to figure out. 446 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:17,720 Speaker 1: So when we see a word and that gun goes 447 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 1: off in our brain, and our brain starts shooting off 448 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 1: phonological and orthological, those two routes, and whoever wins wins. 449 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:27,960 Speaker 1: But where are they racing too? 450 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 3: So there's this part of the brain that's called it's 451 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:33,639 Speaker 3: called several things, so it's been called the brain's letterbox 452 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 3: or the visual word form area. It's typically in the 453 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 3: left hemisphere and a part of the temporal lobe called 454 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 3: the fusiform gyros. 455 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 2: And you have to remember that the brain is split 456 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:45,520 Speaker 2: into two hemispheres, kind of left and right, and the 457 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 2: fusiform gyros is on both. 458 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:51,119 Speaker 3: So the fusiform gyros in the right hemisphere, so the 459 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:55,680 Speaker 3: homologous part, the same part across the hemisphere is specialized 460 00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 3: for face processing. It's so it's called the fusiform face 461 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 3: area in the right hemisphere, and then we have the 462 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:04,200 Speaker 3: visual word form area and the left hemisphere. 463 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:08,160 Speaker 2: And we see that the brain changes as children begin 464 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:09,080 Speaker 2: to learn to read. 465 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:13,520 Speaker 3: When you're first showing them letters, it's very bilateral, so 466 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:15,880 Speaker 3: you'll see particular amounts of activity in both the left 467 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,119 Speaker 3: and the right hemispheres when they're looking at words before 468 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 3: they can really read them. And then as we become 469 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:25,679 Speaker 3: more expert in reading and writing, that activity shifts further 470 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:27,520 Speaker 3: to the left. It lateralizes. 471 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 2: We're using that fusiform gyvis in the left hemisphere to 472 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:36,639 Speaker 2: recall those words for reading and writing. 473 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:42,240 Speaker 1: So this sounds like to me that reading is strongly 474 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:43,440 Speaker 1: tied to memory. 475 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:48,560 Speaker 2: Yes, memory plays a big role in reading and writing. 476 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 2: And there's quite a bit happening when we think about 477 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 2: that race that is basically an obstacle course. 478 00:24:56,119 --> 00:25:01,399 Speaker 1: Honestly, and for some people that obstacle course is instead 479 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,920 Speaker 1: of it just being you know, a little puddle that 480 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:07,159 Speaker 1: you got to jump over, it's a brick wall that 481 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:07,919 Speaker 1: you gotta climb. 482 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 2: Doctor Wilie takes us through two examples, dyslexia and dysgraphia. 483 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:16,680 Speaker 3: So dyslexia is about reading. Dysgraphia is about the spelling, 484 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:20,159 Speaker 3: and that can happen developmentally, of course, and we know 485 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 3: many children have those issues. 486 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:26,960 Speaker 1: But you can also acquire dyslexia and dysgraphia through traumatic 487 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 1: brain injury or stroke, and when this happens it's called 488 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 1: a phasia. 489 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:36,920 Speaker 2: Dyslexia is about reading, So a person with dyslexia has 490 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 2: difficulty associating sounds or different speech sounds within a word, 491 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:44,479 Speaker 2: in learning how the letters represent the sound. So this 492 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 2: is more phonological. 493 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 1: So when we think about that that race, when that 494 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 1: gun goes off their phonological route, there could be some 495 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 1: obstacles in the way that causes that portion of the 496 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:57,680 Speaker 1: race to go slower. 497 00:25:57,440 --> 00:25:59,800 Speaker 2: And dysgraphia is more about writing and. 498 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:03,920 Speaker 3: Spe There's one really cool study that worked with dysgraphic 499 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:07,680 Speaker 3: patients and what they found is there's patterns of behavior 500 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:12,880 Speaker 3: when things go wrong. So for example, some individuals their deficit, 501 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 3: the longer the word is, the more likely they are 502 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 3: to make an error. And what we know from then 503 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 3: is that this is a what we call orthographic working 504 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,000 Speaker 3: memory problem. So when you go to spell a word, 505 00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:26,439 Speaker 3: when you go to write a word, you have to 506 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:28,760 Speaker 3: hold on to those letters in memory. But what can 507 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:32,240 Speaker 3: happen if you have dysgraphia is that that can really 508 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:34,960 Speaker 3: break down during this process of reading or during this 509 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:38,360 Speaker 3: process of trying to spell something, they lose track and 510 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 3: so they get funny errors, because what might happen is 511 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 3: they might delete letters, like suddenly it's supposed to be 512 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:45,640 Speaker 3: eight letters, and then they write down five of them. 513 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 3: But they may also insert them, and those letters may 514 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 3: come from things like we call perseverations, so it may 515 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:56,920 Speaker 3: be the previous word they spelled it's sort of still 516 00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 3: active in their memory. So you can have these deficits 517 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:01,760 Speaker 3: that are showing you that in this sort of temporary 518 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 3: storage that can go wrong. 519 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:08,280 Speaker 2: Sometimes it's a problem of losing your place remembering what 520 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:12,879 Speaker 2: you've already said versus what comes next. Sometimes it's a 521 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:15,360 Speaker 2: case of not being able to clear your memory. 522 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:17,159 Speaker 3: And that's in a different part of the brain than 523 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:19,840 Speaker 3: the long term storage. So you find other people where 524 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 3: it doesn't matter whether the words three letters or ten letters. 525 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,439 Speaker 3: That has nothing to do with their deficits. It's all 526 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:28,119 Speaker 3: about the frequency. What do those people do? And this 527 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 3: also happens with dyslexia. You're going to rely on that 528 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:35,159 Speaker 3: phonological route. So if you have a problem with your 529 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:37,680 Speaker 3: long term memory, you have a hard time just holding 530 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:40,200 Speaker 3: on to those strings of letters and what you need, 531 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,120 Speaker 3: you're going to rely on that process of sounding words out. 532 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 2: And we know nothing is as it seems in the 533 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:50,240 Speaker 2: English language. We got to be easier on ourselves. You know, 534 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 2: if we're all out here trying to spill it right, 535 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:54,920 Speaker 2: get it right, put the punctuation in the right order, 536 00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:57,920 Speaker 2: make sure we say the word right, we retrieve the 537 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:01,960 Speaker 2: right word. This is almost like a false construct we're 538 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:05,240 Speaker 2: putting on our minds. We didn't evolve a capacity for this, 539 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,200 Speaker 2: like we're enforcing this. This is why you have to teach. 540 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:12,439 Speaker 2: It is not innate speaking learning the spoken language that 541 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:15,199 Speaker 2: happens automatically. You just need to be immersed in spoken 542 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:19,879 Speaker 2: language written language. Laying amongst pages of text does not 543 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:21,680 Speaker 2: help you learn to read. 544 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:25,119 Speaker 1: Can't lay your head on these books and get these words. 545 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 2: Don't work like that. And so when we really think 546 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:30,800 Speaker 2: about it, we're forcing our brains to do something that 547 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:33,639 Speaker 2: is not designed to do. And that's kind of cool, 548 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:36,480 Speaker 2: but it's also meaning that we got to give these 549 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:38,120 Speaker 2: brains some room to make some mistakes. 550 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:40,719 Speaker 3: One of the things that's so cool to think about 551 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 3: with the written language is we know that evolutionarily, right, 552 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 3: there's not been time for this to evolved. And one 553 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:51,360 Speaker 3: of the questions that makes us try to understand is 554 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 3: how are we able to do something that we know 555 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:57,560 Speaker 3: we didn't evolve any capacity to do? So we have 556 00:28:57,600 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 3: to be using some part of the brain that will 557 00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 3: let us read and write that didn't evolve to do that, 558 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 3: And so people wonder, well, what does that part of 559 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:07,480 Speaker 3: the brain do if you don't know how to read 560 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:10,240 Speaker 3: and write? What would it be doing otherwise? And is 561 00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 3: there something it can no longer do now that you're 562 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:15,120 Speaker 3: using it for reading and writing? So those, I think 563 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 3: are really fascinating questions that are very difficult to answer, 564 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:21,040 Speaker 3: but really important ones. 565 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 1: Evolutionarily, reading is not critical to survival, and the only 566 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:31,560 Speaker 1: times that we have evolved as a species is in 567 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 1: order to survive. So what it takes for us to 568 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:37,600 Speaker 1: be able to live. 569 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:39,840 Speaker 2: And not just to live, but to live long enough 570 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 2: to reproduce? 571 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:44,520 Speaker 1: Ah okay, because I mean it's true there are people 572 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 1: who don't know how to read and write and they're 573 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:50,120 Speaker 1: still able to function in society. We haven't gotten to 574 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 1: that point evolutionarily where it is absolutely necessary, so then 575 00:29:55,080 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 1: we would eventually change our brains to need that ability. 576 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:07,080 Speaker 2: Compare reading and writing to speaking. So if you think 577 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:10,600 Speaker 2: about it, we have communication centers in the brain because 578 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:13,440 Speaker 2: you have to be able to communicate if you're going 579 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:18,160 Speaker 2: to get to a stage where you're reproducing with another human, right, right, 580 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:20,840 Speaker 2: and so that can be sign language, that can be 581 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 2: multiple ways of communication. But we have evolved the communication 582 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:27,920 Speaker 2: center because it's been necessary for our survival. Even when 583 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:30,960 Speaker 2: we think about gathering and living in groups, which we 584 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:34,520 Speaker 2: know early on in the evolutionary process humans began to do. 585 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:38,040 Speaker 1: But that's not true for reading and writing. 586 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:40,640 Speaker 2: You can still communicate even if you can't read and write. 587 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:43,160 Speaker 2: There's no selective pressure on reading and writing. 588 00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:48,120 Speaker 1: Also, the ability to write does not put you at 589 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 1: a evolutionary advantage. No, not yet, not yet. And I 590 00:30:53,880 --> 00:31:01,080 Speaker 1: feel like my handwriting, but I do feel like my 591 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:09,200 Speaker 1: handwriting does put me at a social disadvantage currently, and 592 00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:14,320 Speaker 1: so I want to know if there is anything that 593 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:18,120 Speaker 1: people when they see my handwriting if there's anything that 594 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:23,920 Speaker 1: people can assume about me, because I think no. But 595 00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:27,719 Speaker 1: we ask doctor Wiley if there was any information that 596 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:31,960 Speaker 1: you could discern from someone's handwriting. 597 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 3: It definitely tells you something. So here's one thing what 598 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,880 Speaker 3: I know about that, and like how people vary. So 599 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 3: one thing we if there's some research on, is the 600 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:48,360 Speaker 3: fact that so people will typically tend to write letters 601 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,400 Speaker 3: more or less the same, but there is a lot 602 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:55,280 Speaker 3: of variability there and some of it is what we 603 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,320 Speaker 3: call individual differences, and some of it is more cultural. 604 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 3: So for example, exit and other parts of the world, 605 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 3: like in Britain, So you probably do one of the 606 00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:08,040 Speaker 3: diagonal lines and then you probably cross it. Right, would 607 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:09,800 Speaker 3: you believe that there are people who do it as 608 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:12,760 Speaker 3: like a greater than sign and then a less than 609 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:14,600 Speaker 3: sign because there are. 610 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:16,880 Speaker 2: No no news. Yes, how are you going to make 611 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:20,280 Speaker 2: sure those things touch just at the right place? That's crazy. 612 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,760 Speaker 1: I was glad to hear that. Doctor Wilie said that 613 00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:26,760 Speaker 1: really the only thing that you can really take away 614 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 1: from somebody's handwriting might be just where they grew up, 615 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:34,960 Speaker 1: Like it's just a geographic thing. Like in this area 616 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:38,479 Speaker 1: of the world, folks write certain letters. This way, and 617 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:40,960 Speaker 1: there's really nothing else you can you can get from that. 618 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,440 Speaker 1: You can't assume anything about their personality, So that that 619 00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:46,600 Speaker 1: kind of makes me feel a little bit better about 620 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:48,000 Speaker 1: my thick letters. 621 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:50,520 Speaker 2: Does this mean you'll share your handwriting with all of 622 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:51,160 Speaker 2: our listeners? 623 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:55,040 Speaker 1: Oh, man, I see out of feeling you were gonna 624 00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:58,800 Speaker 1: do this, I will do it. If Zakiya does it. 625 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 1: If you put up your handwriting, I will also put 626 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 1: up mine. 627 00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:03,720 Speaker 2: I'm gang. 628 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:08,040 Speaker 1: We'll post on our Instagram our writing samples, yes, and 629 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:09,320 Speaker 1: our comments will be. 630 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:15,760 Speaker 2: Closed to shade. Okay, you know, I feel like there 631 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:19,520 Speaker 2: are a thousand questions we could ask, and doctor Wilie 632 00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 2: really got us together so we could understand just how 633 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:27,760 Speaker 2: complex written language is. There's honestly no limit to where 634 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:31,560 Speaker 2: written language has influence. And that's what I learned from 635 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:35,440 Speaker 2: doctor Willie answering all of our questions, is that it's 636 00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:38,520 Speaker 2: way deeper than what we think is deeper than rep 637 00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:40,600 Speaker 2: I remember our first question to him was like, what 638 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:43,520 Speaker 2: can you tell us about written language? Here's what he said. 639 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:45,800 Speaker 3: There's a lot going on, so there's a there's a 640 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:48,560 Speaker 3: lot to unpack. And one of the things that I 641 00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:50,360 Speaker 3: always have to think about when you know, when people 642 00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:52,560 Speaker 3: want to talk about things like this is you have 643 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:54,520 Speaker 3: to think kind of about the like the level of 644 00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:57,680 Speaker 3: analysis that you're interested in, you know, even if you 645 00:33:57,760 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 3: just want to talk about the brain. So what are 646 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:03,120 Speaker 3: the neurals substrates that support reading and writing? It really 647 00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:05,760 Speaker 3: depends like, well, what do you mean when you mean writing? 648 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:08,400 Speaker 3: Do you mean the actual process of using your hand, 649 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:11,840 Speaker 3: you know, to produce letters on a page, or do 650 00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:15,440 Speaker 3: you mean spelling, which for psychologists we usually actually mean spelling. Right, 651 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:18,680 Speaker 3: So spelling traditionally, you know, you do that by writing 652 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:20,600 Speaker 3: by hand, but now most of us are doing it 653 00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:24,120 Speaker 3: by typing. And we also have oral spelling, right, which 654 00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 3: we still do when someone says, how do you spell 655 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:26,719 Speaker 3: your name? I have to do this all the time, right, 656 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:29,480 Speaker 3: I say W I L E Y. So those are 657 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,960 Speaker 3: we talked about the modality of these things, and what's 658 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:37,279 Speaker 3: so cool about written language is that it actually has 659 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:47,279 Speaker 3: representations in all these different modalities. 660 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:55,040 Speaker 2: That's it for Lab thirty, but we have so much 661 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:58,000 Speaker 2: more for you to dig into on our website. Go 662 00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 2: to Dope Labs podcasts. 663 00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:03,000 Speaker 1: On our website, you can find a cheat sheet for 664 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:06,120 Speaker 1: today's episode, along with a ton of other links and 665 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:08,480 Speaker 1: resources in our show notes, and. 666 00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:10,480 Speaker 2: If you want to stay in the know with Dope Labs, 667 00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:12,759 Speaker 2: don't forget to sign up for our newsletter too. Here 668 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:15,080 Speaker 2: basically will become our virtual pimpal. 669 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:18,439 Speaker 1: Special Thanks to our guest expert, doctor Robert Wiley, visit 670 00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:21,640 Speaker 1: his blog at writing Brain dot blog. You can find 671 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:23,640 Speaker 1: out more about his work in our show notes. 672 00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:27,319 Speaker 2: Also, we love hearing from you. What did you think 673 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:30,240 Speaker 2: about today's lab? What are your ideas for future labs? 674 00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:33,759 Speaker 2: Our number is two zero two five six seven seven 675 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:36,520 Speaker 2: zero two eight. You can find us on Twitter and 676 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:39,080 Speaker 2: Instagram at Dope Labs podcast. 677 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,160 Speaker 1: Tt is on Twitter at d r Underscore t Sho, 678 00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:46,240 Speaker 1: and you can find Zakia at z said So. 679 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,200 Speaker 2: Follow us on Spotify or wherever else you listen to 680 00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:48,840 Speaker 2: your podcast. 681 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:51,840 Speaker 1: Dope Labs is produced by Jenny Rattle at Mask of 682 00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:53,719 Speaker 1: Wave Runner Studios. 683 00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:55,600 Speaker 2: Mixing sound design by Hannis Brown. 684 00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:59,520 Speaker 1: Taka Yasuzawa and Alex Sugiura composed our theme music, with 685 00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:02,120 Speaker 1: addition music by Elijah Lex Harvey. 686 00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:04,839 Speaker 2: Dope Labs is a production of Spotify and Mega Owned 687 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:07,799 Speaker 2: Media Group, and it's executive produced by us T T 688 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:12,799 Speaker 2: show Dia and Zakiah Wattley, you know something that I 689 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:15,920 Speaker 2: realized I haven't used in a while, But you know 690 00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:18,360 Speaker 2: I Message has that feature where when you turn the 691 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:22,680 Speaker 2: phone to the side, you can actually write with your finger. 692 00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:23,960 Speaker 3: Yes. 693 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:27,759 Speaker 1: Well, the thing is is that it never knows what 694 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:32,680 Speaker 1: I'm writing, So I guess these letters just too voluptuous.