WEBVTT - Steve Lillywhite 0:00:08.680 --> 0:00:12.280 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Barbed Left Sides podcast. 0:00:12.920 --> 0:00:18.280 Like yesterday is the Record Producer explordinare Steve Uli Steve? 0:00:18.680 --> 0:00:21.480 Hello there, Bob. Now you called me a record producer. 0:00:21.640 --> 0:00:24.320 I always say that people over the age of sixty 0:00:24.560 --> 0:00:26.960 know what a record is, people over the age of 0:00:27.040 --> 0:00:30.160 forty called it a CD, so I was a CD producer, 0:00:30.520 --> 0:00:33.080 and then people over the age of twenty only know 0:00:33.360 --> 0:00:37.760 as streaming. So I would rather call myself a music producer. 0:00:38.320 --> 0:00:41.680 I almost said that, but hey, shows my age. A 0:00:41.800 --> 0:00:45.840 second thing. You are speaking to us from Jakarta, where 0:00:45.880 --> 0:00:49.600 you now live. Let's start, especially for the ignorant Americans. 0:00:49.840 --> 0:00:53.840 Where exactly is Jacarta? Where is Jacartia is? Jakarta is 0:00:53.920 --> 0:00:59.040 the capital city of Indonesia. Indonesia is the fourth largest 0:01:00.160 --> 0:01:03.280 country on the planet, with about fourth largest by population 0:01:04.000 --> 0:01:11.640 after China, America and India. It's about eight Muslim uh 0:01:11.840 --> 0:01:15.240 seven or eight percent Christian. The rest are sort of 0:01:15.480 --> 0:01:19.320 scattered between Hindus and Buddhists, and they've got a couple 0:01:19.360 --> 0:01:22.120 of atheists, of which I am one of them. But 0:01:22.520 --> 0:01:24.760 the great thing about it is that that everyone lives 0:01:24.800 --> 0:01:28.000 in perfect harmony together, you know, and that's great because 0:01:28.040 --> 0:01:30.360 there's not many places on the planet where Christians and 0:01:30.440 --> 0:01:35.960 Muslims live in um, you know, in in UH next 0:01:36.000 --> 0:01:38.120 door to each other, and they're fine with it. So 0:01:38.160 --> 0:01:41.399 how did you end up in Jakara? I was living 0:01:41.800 --> 0:01:44.440 not very far from you, Bob, really in just off 0:01:44.480 --> 0:01:48.840 sunset in Hollywood, and and I was thinking, there's something 0:01:48.920 --> 0:01:51.680 about my life here that I don't know. It was. 0:01:52.080 --> 0:01:56.000 I wanted some my my My thing has always been 0:01:56.000 --> 0:01:59.240 my enthusiasm for life. And I was I was living 0:01:59.240 --> 0:02:01.000 in l A and I you know, I just got 0:02:01.560 --> 0:02:04.480 a Latin Grammy for for my album with j one Is, 0:02:04.720 --> 0:02:07.520 and you know, things were okay, but I felt I 0:02:07.560 --> 0:02:11.280 wanted a new, um, a new challenge in life. So 0:02:11.840 --> 0:02:17.200 I was invited to go to Singapore to give a 0:02:17.240 --> 0:02:21.080 speech at UH Music Matters, which of course you're familiar with. 0:02:21.720 --> 0:02:24.600 And I was so excited. I thought, Southeast Asia, this 0:02:24.680 --> 0:02:27.000 is going to be fair. The moment I got to Singapore, 0:02:27.040 --> 0:02:29.239 it was like, oh my god, this is like going 0:02:29.280 --> 0:02:32.040 to Disneyland. I mean, it was very nice and it 0:02:32.120 --> 0:02:35.720 was very clean, but where is the Where's the excitement 0:02:35.840 --> 0:02:40.120 of the of the East, you know? Um? Although I 0:02:40.120 --> 0:02:42.160 I got some great friends in Singapore, and I love 0:02:42.200 --> 0:02:44.839 it now actually, but I I then sort of went 0:02:44.880 --> 0:02:49.400 to China and went to to to career and and 0:02:49.400 --> 0:02:53.800 and these places. None of them really made me feel great. 0:02:53.840 --> 0:02:56.120 And then a friend of mine said there's a band 0:02:56.360 --> 0:03:00.280 in Indonesia want an English record producer, and that I 0:03:00.320 --> 0:03:02.880 googled them. They were huge over here, and I came 0:03:02.919 --> 0:03:05.760 out and did some songs and and I just fell 0:03:05.800 --> 0:03:10.360 in love with the place. It's a it's got its 0:03:10.400 --> 0:03:13.000 own I mean, I mean for me, I I've learned 0:03:13.040 --> 0:03:16.560 so much about a whole different musical culture and that's 0:03:16.720 --> 0:03:20.000 really um And and he gave me a new lease 0:03:20.040 --> 0:03:23.240 of life. To be honest, I have a great lifestyle here. 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:26.040 I now. I came over here as a music producer 0:03:26.040 --> 0:03:29.480 and I now worked for KFC. Okay, before we get there. 0:03:29.600 --> 0:03:35.800 Deep the last time we spoke, you were playing the 0:03:35.880 --> 0:03:39.840 field and never anticipated getting married again, but reasonly you 0:03:39.920 --> 0:03:43.640 did get married. Tell me that story. Oh, it's so 0:03:43.680 --> 0:03:46.640 funny you you and I. I don't I don't mean 0:03:46.680 --> 0:03:49.360 to be disrespectful to any culture, and I believe it, 0:03:49.520 --> 0:03:51.680 you know. And as I say, I am not a 0:03:51.680 --> 0:03:54.560 believer in and afterlife or or any you know, I 0:03:54.600 --> 0:03:57.360 believe in a higher power than me. But my higher 0:03:57.360 --> 0:04:00.400 power than me is basically a group of us. You know. 0:04:00.480 --> 0:04:03.240 I don't think there's anything outside, and that's quite a 0:04:03.320 --> 0:04:06.000 prevalent view in the West, but over here it's not. 0:04:06.200 --> 0:04:10.480 And and my and my girlfriend Um and her parents 0:04:10.520 --> 0:04:12.440 felt that it was sort of wrong that we were 0:04:12.480 --> 0:04:18.239 living together, and so so I said, okay, well we'll 0:04:18.320 --> 0:04:23.320 do a you know, I will convert, not that convert, 0:04:23.360 --> 0:04:25.840 because I'm not anything. So it doesn't matter if i'm either, 0:04:26.200 --> 0:04:29.080 you know, I'll do what anyone says if it makes 0:04:29.080 --> 0:04:34.240 them happy. So I did. I did acquire a Muslim name. 0:04:35.000 --> 0:04:38.400 And apparently when you become a Muslim or acquire a 0:04:38.480 --> 0:04:40.640 Muslim name, you can choose any name you want. So 0:04:41.000 --> 0:04:45.640 guess what I chose, Bob, I am now in Muslim world. 0:04:45.720 --> 0:04:52.480 My name is Mohammed Ali. That is the fantastic denly 0:04:53.000 --> 0:04:55.600 quite a sense of humor there. Okay, how did you 0:04:55.680 --> 0:04:58.680 meet this woman who's now your wife? She is Um, 0:04:59.200 --> 0:05:02.640 just just mutual friends and and we got on grades 0:05:02.640 --> 0:05:05.440 and she's far too young for me, and it's perfectly 0:05:05.480 --> 0:05:09.560 acceptable over here, you know. But but but I've realized, Bob, 0:05:09.600 --> 0:05:13.599 the difference between. You know, it's it's not age gap 0:05:13.760 --> 0:05:16.800 that that that makes problems. It's the fact that one 0:05:16.839 --> 0:05:19.000 of us is male and one of us is female. 0:05:19.839 --> 0:05:22.000 I mean, I think that's that's the main difference. It's 0:05:22.040 --> 0:05:23.880 nothing to do with how old you are, is to 0:05:23.960 --> 0:05:25.719 do with one is male and mine is female. But 0:05:25.800 --> 0:05:28.760 we got on great, We've got a great life. Her 0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:33.880 family are lovely and yeah, and at the moment, COVID 0:05:34.000 --> 0:05:37.680 is sort of bubbling here. But but but you know, 0:05:37.800 --> 0:05:39.840 as I say, most of them are Muslims. If if 0:05:39.880 --> 0:05:42.760 anyone dies of COVID, they shrug their shoulders and say 0:05:42.839 --> 0:05:47.000 it's God's will and they bury people here within twenty 0:05:47.000 --> 0:05:51.240 four hours, which is the Muslim tradition. So there's not 0:05:51.279 --> 0:05:54.719 really any autopsies to see what they died of as well. 0:05:55.320 --> 0:05:57.920 So it's it's you know, but but but the good 0:05:57.920 --> 0:06:01.200 news is that people in Asia have been wearing masks 0:06:01.279 --> 0:06:05.280 for a long time, you know, so so that there 0:06:05.360 --> 0:06:10.359 is no political divide over anything like that. You know, 0:06:10.480 --> 0:06:15.159 everyone deals with with mask wearing, everyone deals with you know, 0:06:15.160 --> 0:06:17.880 they're all the same. So I wouldn't think of leaving 0:06:17.920 --> 0:06:19.839 the house, and no one thinks of leaving their house 0:06:19.880 --> 0:06:22.520 without wearing a mask, and we all wash our hands, 0:06:22.560 --> 0:06:25.919 and we all get temperature tested if we go anywhere 0:06:25.920 --> 0:06:28.800 we go, you know, everywhere there's a guy with a 0:06:28.800 --> 0:06:33.000 little temperature thing to to take your temperature. About probably 0:06:33.040 --> 0:06:35.320 three or four times a day. I get my temperature done. 0:06:35.760 --> 0:06:38.880 I get tested once a week for my job. U. 0:06:39.320 --> 0:06:43.599 So you know, it's all good. Okay. To what degree 0:06:43.640 --> 0:06:48.120 is there an expact community there? I well, when I 0:06:48.160 --> 0:06:50.159 came here six years ago, there was a fairly big 0:06:50.160 --> 0:06:54.240 expact community. It's shrunk a bit. And and to be honest, 0:06:54.240 --> 0:06:58.120 the oil business was huge even before I came, so 0:06:58.440 --> 0:07:00.479 I sort of got the end of that at But 0:07:00.600 --> 0:07:03.159 there isn't so much of an expact community. And that 0:07:03.200 --> 0:07:07.760 doesn't bother me because I'm not really I don't need 0:07:07.800 --> 0:07:10.600 to be with ex pats, you know. I when I 0:07:10.800 --> 0:07:14.880 enter a culture, I love to to dive right in, 0:07:15.080 --> 0:07:17.720 you know. So I've learned the language to a certain extent, 0:07:18.200 --> 0:07:21.000 and I love the food. I love the music, you know, 0:07:21.040 --> 0:07:24.360 because the music is my job. I put these CDs 0:07:24.440 --> 0:07:28.040 into into KFC and I sell you know, up to 0:07:28.080 --> 0:07:32.120 a million CDs every month, So I have to know 0:07:32.200 --> 0:07:37.840 what the what what the businesses in Indonesia, So so 0:07:37.960 --> 0:07:41.520 you know, there's not I have some expact friends obviously, 0:07:41.600 --> 0:07:44.000 but you know, because I don't drink alcohol, so I'm 0:07:44.000 --> 0:07:46.640 not one of those people who goes to the bar 0:07:46.800 --> 0:07:49.680 and get drunk. And you know, and and and the 0:07:49.720 --> 0:07:53.160 typical expact that you hear about in Bali and places 0:07:53.240 --> 0:07:57.960 like that. Okay, how long has it been, if always 0:07:58.000 --> 0:08:01.920 that you don't drink to ety three years and nine months, 0:08:01.960 --> 0:08:06.200 I think, And what was your motivation to start one 0:08:06.240 --> 0:08:08.720 day at a time. And by doing it one day 0:08:08.760 --> 0:08:10.920 at a time, I've realized I couldn't get to twenty 0:08:10.960 --> 0:08:14.280 three years, so you know, it was relatively easy. And 0:08:14.680 --> 0:08:18.040 you know, I work, I produced the Rolling Stones, Bob. 0:08:18.120 --> 0:08:21.760 You know, I and I lived, and many people didn't live. 0:08:22.440 --> 0:08:27.600 So I've you know, I understand the pitfalls and I 0:08:27.600 --> 0:08:31.360 I didn't get to a place where my life collapsed 0:08:31.480 --> 0:08:33.240 or anything, but I got to a place where I 0:08:33.240 --> 0:08:38.000 thought I crossed an invisible line, which was basically, it'll 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:41.400 probably get me eventually. And when you come to that 0:08:41.480 --> 0:08:45.840 realization that your lifestyle will will will probably get you eventually, 0:08:45.880 --> 0:08:47.840 it sort of takes all the fun out of it. 0:08:47.960 --> 0:08:50.560 So I dealt with it in the way that so 0:08:50.640 --> 0:08:53.319 many people in our business deal with it, and I 0:08:53.400 --> 0:08:55.040 and I love it. You know, my life is a 0:08:55.080 --> 0:08:59.640 lot more open now, you know. Um, you think you're 0:08:59.679 --> 0:09:02.040 free when you're living that sort of lifestyle, but actually 0:09:02.120 --> 0:09:04.880 you're much freer when you're not. Your life becomes a 0:09:04.880 --> 0:09:08.079 lot wider and a lot bigger. You're preaching to the converted. 0:09:08.520 --> 0:09:12.640 But in this particular case, the KFC thing is still 0:09:12.720 --> 0:09:15.839 going on. Explain from my audience the whole period. I 0:09:16.280 --> 0:09:18.960 just threw in KFC that. Okay, let me start. The 0:09:19.120 --> 0:09:26.920 KFC in Indonesia is a destination restaurant. It's um. It's 0:09:26.960 --> 0:09:32.120 because there's no pork and beef is is not really 0:09:32.200 --> 0:09:36.600 that that that prevalent here. Chicken rules, and chicken here 0:09:36.679 --> 0:09:39.640 is not pumped full of full of chlorine. It's not 0:09:39.679 --> 0:09:44.079 washed in chlorine. It's not pumped full of um steroids 0:09:44.080 --> 0:09:46.040 and stuff to make it big. So they're really small, 0:09:46.080 --> 0:09:49.640 they're really tasty, and chicken here is great and KFC 0:09:49.760 --> 0:09:56.880 franchise has really become the thing here. People love KFC 0:09:56.960 --> 0:10:00.600 and honestly, I I love it here. It's it's exactly 0:10:00.600 --> 0:10:03.360 how you remember it as a kid, you know, when 0:10:03.360 --> 0:10:06.199 you first heard it and it was great. But you 0:10:06.320 --> 0:10:08.480 now go and have KFC and it's like you walk 0:10:08.559 --> 0:10:11.960 in and it just smells stale of stale. You know, 0:10:12.040 --> 0:10:15.240 it's not good. Whereas here we have you know, there's 0:10:15.240 --> 0:10:18.120 coffee shops in the in a lot of the KFC s, 0:10:18.120 --> 0:10:23.040 they're very clean. Our flagship restaurants have stages where there's music. 0:10:23.720 --> 0:10:27.480 And basically I didn't start it but my um, but 0:10:27.600 --> 0:10:33.160 my predecessor decided to start bundling c ds with chicken. Now, 0:10:33.360 --> 0:10:37.160 this started to take off and when record stores closed, 0:10:37.720 --> 0:10:40.240 it was the only place people could get their CDs. 0:10:40.360 --> 0:10:44.200 So it's become a sort of tradition when you go 0:10:44.320 --> 0:10:48.880 to KFC, people buy CDs. So it's a very prestigious 0:10:48.880 --> 0:10:52.200 thing to have your CD for sale at KFC because 0:10:52.559 --> 0:10:56.199 you know, I I say, pre COVID, I would my 0:10:56.200 --> 0:10:59.080 My biggest month sale was one point one million in 0:10:59.120 --> 0:11:03.760 a month post COVID. I'm at about five fifty, so 0:11:04.000 --> 0:11:08.320 it's it's but it's improving again. And I have ten well, 0:11:08.360 --> 0:11:11.040 I have eight c d s now at any one time, 0:11:11.040 --> 0:11:14.400 and two DVDs because I felt that I can give 0:11:14.440 --> 0:11:16.280 a you know, I do a DVD for kids and 0:11:16.320 --> 0:11:20.840 a DVD for family, um and and you know it's 0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:24.240 it's nothing to do with my taste. Producing was always 0:11:24.280 --> 0:11:26.440 to do with my taste. That was how I became 0:11:27.080 --> 0:11:30.360 a producer, because you know, it was all too I 0:11:30.400 --> 0:11:32.640 would never do anything for money. I did it because 0:11:32.640 --> 0:11:35.360 whether I liked it or not. But you know, now 0:11:35.400 --> 0:11:39.520 I'm I'm getting older. I have other people who helped me, 0:11:39.640 --> 0:11:42.000 but it's not my taste. I choose things for all 0:11:42.040 --> 0:11:44.800 the family, you know. I I put a CD in 0:11:44.920 --> 0:11:48.280 for the teenage girls because you know, they always love 0:11:48.360 --> 0:11:52.760 these these these soppy you know, and it's great fun. 0:11:52.800 --> 0:11:55.560 And I've got this, you know. And I'm enthusiastic about 0:11:55.600 --> 0:11:58.600 my job, and being enthusiastic about what you do in 0:11:58.640 --> 0:12:03.760 life may exit so much more exciting. And and you know, 0:12:03.800 --> 0:12:06.440 I've I've I've always been lucky. I've never had a 0:12:06.559 --> 0:12:09.520 job because the definition of a job is you can 0:12:09.640 --> 0:12:13.439 complain about your job. That's one of the things about 0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:16.960 having a job. What I've always had is a vocation. Now, 0:12:17.000 --> 0:12:20.440 a vocation is great, but you're never allowed to complain 0:12:20.520 --> 0:12:25.160 about it because you would not be as as enthusia 0:12:25.520 --> 0:12:28.360 you would not be true to that that that young 0:12:28.440 --> 0:12:31.160 seventeen year old boy who walked into a recording studio 0:12:31.520 --> 0:12:35.000 full of wonder. I think the sense of wonder is 0:12:35.040 --> 0:12:38.360 something that used to abound in the music business, and 0:12:38.400 --> 0:12:42.640 that sense of wonder is something that now, you know, 0:12:42.720 --> 0:12:45.800 you don't see that with the young artists. It that 0:12:45.920 --> 0:12:49.959 there's the sense of innocence and wonder. You you know, 0:12:50.400 --> 0:12:54.240 homogenization is a great thing, but maybe not for truly 0:12:54.320 --> 0:12:58.840 great creative people. Okay, let's flow down for a minute. 0:12:59.400 --> 0:13:02.960 You're so CD s a KFC. A lot of questions. First, 0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:06.800 can you buy a CD at a place other than KFC, 0:13:08.559 --> 0:13:11.280 not the CDs I sell. The CDs I sell. We 0:13:11.400 --> 0:13:15.800 have a we have an exclusive deal with our artists 0:13:16.400 --> 0:13:20.120 and they come in and we we asked them to 0:13:20.160 --> 0:13:23.840 do certain not promotional things for for KFC, but we 0:13:23.880 --> 0:13:27.800 asked them to to to do some store visits. Uh 0:13:27.840 --> 0:13:30.360 and the you know, there's no branding involved. It's not 0:13:30.440 --> 0:13:32.560 like they sell our CDs and they have to hold 0:13:32.720 --> 0:13:35.480 KFC and say I love it. I mean, to be honest, 0:13:35.600 --> 0:13:38.360 most of them do really love KFC, so they feel 0:13:38.480 --> 0:13:41.320 they don't mind going to a store. But the idea 0:13:41.440 --> 0:13:43.679 is go to the store, do a little meet and 0:13:43.720 --> 0:13:47.600 greet with some fans speak to the staff. Get you know, 0:13:47.720 --> 0:13:50.280 it's to keep the staff. You know, take a couple 0:13:50.280 --> 0:13:53.280 of photos with the staff. So the staff two things 0:13:53.400 --> 0:13:58.160 keeps them happy and it and it's um and it 0:13:58.240 --> 0:14:00.800 makes themselves the seat, you know, it makes them want 0:14:00.880 --> 0:14:04.000 to sell the CD more. And it's it's all around 0:14:04.000 --> 0:14:07.320 the glimp thing. Okay, what is the company you work for? 0:14:07.440 --> 0:14:10.079 What's the name of that? Well, my my company is 0:14:10.120 --> 0:14:14.400 called jms R Jagonian Music and Sport Indonesia. But it 0:14:14.760 --> 0:14:17.840 doesn't really matter. It's just a it's a shell, you know, 0:14:18.000 --> 0:14:22.080 it's a it's a part of KFC Indonesia. But you know, 0:14:22.120 --> 0:14:26.600 my my boss owns all the franchises of KFC UM 0:14:27.280 --> 0:14:33.400 and KFC and and unlike other big worldwide corporations like 0:14:33.600 --> 0:14:37.240 Disney have such you know, you cannot do certain things 0:14:37.320 --> 0:14:40.960 worldwide with Disney. With KFC, they've been very good because 0:14:41.000 --> 0:14:45.400 they've allowed my my boss and his team to to 0:14:45.400 --> 0:14:51.440 to tweak the the KFC the product for the Indonesian market. 0:14:51.560 --> 0:14:56.920 So most people eat KFC with rice. Um. They they 0:14:57.000 --> 0:15:00.320 love spicy food here, oh my god. Everything you know, 0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:04.720 they the chili is is so they do the spicy KFC, 0:15:05.200 --> 0:15:08.720 so you know, and that's what I like. Uh, and 0:15:08.760 --> 0:15:11.400 they're always doing you know. But I'm not here too 0:15:12.080 --> 0:15:14.560 to promote KFC in general. But I would say, if 0:15:14.600 --> 0:15:17.600 anyone does visit Indonesia, it's a trip to KFC is 0:15:18.480 --> 0:15:21.120 it's not as outrageous as a trip you know, it's 0:15:21.160 --> 0:15:24.000 not as weird as a trip to KFC in the West. 0:15:24.520 --> 0:15:27.640 And in fact, just very quickly, a friend of mine 0:15:28.720 --> 0:15:30.880 heard about this when I was in New York working 0:15:30.880 --> 0:15:33.960 on the last U two album. He said to me, Steve, 0:15:34.120 --> 0:15:36.080 do you think he was a journalist? He said, Can 0:15:36.120 --> 0:15:40.360 I pitch your story to the New York Times? I said, yeah, 0:15:40.440 --> 0:15:42.400 but I don't think they he said, oh my god, 0:15:42.400 --> 0:15:45.200 they're dying to do this. So I was actually on 0:15:45.240 --> 0:15:48.960 the front cover of the New York Times Arts section 0:15:49.000 --> 0:15:53.120 at the weekend, holding a bucket of KFC and you know, 0:15:53.400 --> 0:15:58.480 telling my story about what I do. Now KFC, big 0:15:58.520 --> 0:16:04.680 worldwide corporate is called the Young Organization and believe it 0:16:04.760 --> 0:16:07.000 or not, and you know, they have never been on 0:16:07.040 --> 0:16:09.320 the front page of the New York Times in their life. 0:16:09.360 --> 0:16:11.720 So all of a sudden they got like this, Q 0:16:11.920 --> 0:16:15.120 dos that you know? Um, so so they are very 0:16:15.160 --> 0:16:21.040 proud of of the Indonesian KFC on on the worldwide basis. Okay, 0:16:21.160 --> 0:16:25.800 a few questions in terms of landscape of music, KFC 0:16:25.920 --> 0:16:29.360 has what percentage of the overall market or how many competies? 0:16:29.400 --> 0:16:33.400 Well pretty much ninety. Well that since KFC did it, 0:16:33.520 --> 0:16:40.120 other chicken outlets have done it. Their California Chicken Company 0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:44.000 and is one and there's one other one but there, 0:16:44.360 --> 0:16:47.480 I mean, we have six hundreds at six hundred and 0:16:47.560 --> 0:16:52.520 fifty outlets. They only have about two or three hundred, 0:16:52.560 --> 0:16:56.760 and they they don't, you know, they're kept there. They're fried. 0:16:56.840 --> 0:16:59.520 Chicken is like a level below ours, you know. So 0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:03.640 it's it's it's more like American case. So we have Okay, 0:17:03.680 --> 0:17:06.720 So what you're saying essentially is there are no record stories. 0:17:07.080 --> 0:17:10.040 Everybody buys their music and a a chicken store, yes or 0:17:10.080 --> 0:17:12.680 they yeah, it's I mean a lot of people what 0:17:12.960 --> 0:17:16.320 YouTube and stuff. So my job is becoming harder and harder. 0:17:16.560 --> 0:17:18.960 And what I do is, you know, I'm trying to 0:17:19.600 --> 0:17:22.239 and to be honest, I'm selling them something that they 0:17:22.280 --> 0:17:26.239 can get on YouTube for nothing, you know. So so 0:17:26.320 --> 0:17:29.760 I'm forever trying to think of new ways to bundle 0:17:29.840 --> 0:17:33.520 it all together. Like compilations of styles of music, and 0:17:33.920 --> 0:17:38.080 you know, because playlist mentality is is happening more and more, 0:17:38.640 --> 0:17:42.440 even if you don't subscribe to any streaming service. The 0:17:42.520 --> 0:17:46.320 idea of the album is I once wrote to you, Bob, 0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:49.040 and you ignored it. But I actually in the West Side, 0:17:49.320 --> 0:17:52.800 I read it. I get replied everything because I know, no, no, don't. 0:17:53.119 --> 0:17:55.680 He was slightly flippant, which is no, you always do. 0:17:55.840 --> 0:17:59.000 You know, you're you're very good to me. But I 0:17:59.080 --> 0:18:02.480 actually had this, this this idea that the only thing 0:18:02.560 --> 0:18:05.080 that will save the album in the West is the 0:18:05.200 --> 0:18:10.280 legalization of marijuana, because you know, you know, when you 0:18:10.359 --> 0:18:12.919 were fourteen or fifteen and you had your first joint 0:18:13.119 --> 0:18:15.600 and you listen to Dark Side of the Moon, there 0:18:15.680 --> 0:18:22.080 was a whole new thing happening, all right, And I think, maybe, if, if, 0:18:22.119 --> 0:18:25.679 that's the only possible thing that will save the album 0:18:25.960 --> 0:18:28.760 is the legalization, But I don't think it probably will 0:18:28.840 --> 0:18:33.000 because the technology has no need for albums, and technology 0:18:33.040 --> 0:18:37.960 will always lead the art form. Okay, what is the 0:18:38.000 --> 0:18:41.000 price of v CDs? You said they are They're priced 0:18:41.080 --> 0:18:44.280 at a point where Indonesia, you know, people here are 0:18:44.359 --> 0:18:48.600 very poor, so they're like five bucks each okay, and 0:18:48.680 --> 0:18:52.159 to what But it doesn't. Doesn't everybody have a morbile phone. 0:18:53.720 --> 0:18:55.920 That's why my job is getting more and more difficult. 0:18:56.840 --> 0:18:59.320 But yes they do, but they have cars and they 0:18:59.800 --> 0:19:05.080 and and well they do, but it's more the a 0:19:05.160 --> 0:19:08.439 lot of people have have well, yes they have a 0:19:08.480 --> 0:19:11.280 mobile phone. What you're talking about, Bob left sets is 0:19:11.320 --> 0:19:16.679 a smartphone because a mobile phone will not play music. 0:19:16.880 --> 0:19:19.920 A smartphone is the one that plays music. And yes, 0:19:19.960 --> 0:19:22.480 a lot of people have smartphones. But but but the 0:19:22.520 --> 0:19:26.240 problem is is the broadband. There's not much broadband and 0:19:26.280 --> 0:19:30.280 there's no five G or uh. You know a lot 0:19:30.320 --> 0:19:34.359 of the rural areas don't have very good reception. So 0:19:34.800 --> 0:19:37.639 you know, it will all change in the future. And 0:19:37.920 --> 0:19:42.360 Spotify numbers are going up here. But you know, I'm 0:19:42.600 --> 0:19:46.600 I'm getting to the point where I mean, I'm I'm 0:19:46.720 --> 0:19:49.320 enjoying my job, but it's not gonna last forever. So 0:19:49.520 --> 0:19:53.800 I'm I'm you know, and okay, let's just assume it 0:19:53.920 --> 0:19:57.440 ends somewhere in the next five years based on your 0:19:57.560 --> 0:20:01.120 need for excitement. Will you then continue to work or 0:20:01.160 --> 0:20:04.280 will you get into lifestyle sale under the sunset? Now, 0:20:04.359 --> 0:20:06.919 i I've actually just invested in a house. I've just 0:20:06.960 --> 0:20:11.960 bought a house in Bali, so I I shall, I 0:20:11.960 --> 0:20:14.879 shall probably move to Balley. But you know, I'm also 0:20:14.960 --> 0:20:17.680 writing a book and I do a sort of U 0:20:17.920 --> 0:20:20.800 and I've written my own life story in a stand 0:20:20.880 --> 0:20:24.840 up form and actually it's with music and I've you know, 0:20:25.160 --> 0:20:27.560 it's two It's a two hour show with a with 0:20:27.640 --> 0:20:32.240 a gap, with a break at at one hour, and 0:20:32.280 --> 0:20:35.040 it it goes. You know, it's just a lot of 0:20:35.080 --> 0:20:38.800 self effacing stories and I play music. I've got about 0:20:39.080 --> 0:20:43.120 twenty segments of music where I paid little bits of songs. 0:20:43.200 --> 0:20:47.320 I tell funny stories, I tell sad stories. Um. And 0:20:47.520 --> 0:20:50.960 I had this all done. I did one show in Jakarta, 0:20:51.000 --> 0:20:54.800 which was fantastic, and then I my plan was to 0:20:54.840 --> 0:20:59.359 take it around locally Asia, Southeast Asia and then go 0:20:59.440 --> 0:21:03.520 around the odd with it doing my show and because 0:21:03.520 --> 0:21:05.280 a lot of people when they heard about it said 0:21:05.280 --> 0:21:09.160 oh I come to see that, you know, and then 0:21:09.200 --> 0:21:12.840 COVID hit So everything is. It was about a year 0:21:12.880 --> 0:21:17.359 ago in February that I did my first show. Um, 0:21:17.359 --> 0:21:19.720 and I've still got the script, you know, I've got 0:21:19.720 --> 0:21:22.640 it all ready to go and it's okay, this beg 0:21:22.800 --> 0:21:25.760 this begs a question. You've made your rep on the 0:21:25.800 --> 0:21:29.359 other side of the glass, Yes, sir, So did you 0:21:29.560 --> 0:21:33.040 always want to be a performer, your reluctant performer. Did 0:21:33.080 --> 0:21:35.399 the light bulb just go off? No? I never wanted 0:21:35.400 --> 0:21:37.520 to be a performer, and I never even wanted to 0:21:37.520 --> 0:21:42.560 be a teacher, because I I always, um, I always 0:21:42.600 --> 0:21:47.760 subscribed to the idea that those who can't teach, you know, 0:21:48.160 --> 0:21:50.960 and and in fact, actually my kids school in New 0:21:51.040 --> 0:21:54.359 York there, their teachers at the school had a band 0:21:54.880 --> 0:21:57.320 and they actually called the name of the band those 0:21:57.359 --> 0:22:00.600 who Can't, which is which is a great name for 0:22:00.640 --> 0:22:04.320 a band, right, especially if you are all teachers. They 0:22:04.359 --> 0:22:07.280 called it those who Came. But I've subsequently come to 0:22:07.400 --> 0:22:11.680 the conclusion that that if people like me who actually 0:22:12.560 --> 0:22:19.080 um who who who have been both old school and 0:22:19.840 --> 0:22:23.840 modern recording techniques, you know, I have something I can 0:22:23.920 --> 0:22:28.280 give back to young people. Uh, And so I I 0:22:28.400 --> 0:22:32.480 quite And also my story is it's quite funny. I mean, look, 0:22:32.640 --> 0:22:35.159 you know you went to see the Jeff Emmerick. You know, 0:22:35.280 --> 0:22:39.679 it was very good, but it was all a little worthy. 0:22:38.760 --> 0:22:42.199 You know. Yeah, he was he he was fantastic, but 0:22:42.760 --> 0:22:45.560 you know, and and his work speaks for itself. But 0:22:45.560 --> 0:22:48.679 but I'm you know, I'm one of those produced. There 0:22:48.720 --> 0:22:50.639 are a lot of brilliant producers in the world. But 0:22:50.680 --> 0:22:55.240 I'm a people person and I think, um, you know, 0:22:55.359 --> 0:23:01.320 I'm I'm pretty good at speaking and and I enjoy 0:23:01.359 --> 0:23:03.520 it and that's the sort of thing that gives me 0:23:03.600 --> 0:23:07.800 more excitement at the moment. So okay, yeah, we'll have 0:23:07.840 --> 0:23:10.120 to wait for covid M. Let's go back to the beginning. 0:23:10.240 --> 0:23:13.639 What kind of circumstances did you grow up? In? White, 0:23:13.800 --> 0:23:22.160 middle class um post war possibly the greatest example of 0:23:22.320 --> 0:23:27.800 socialized life the planet has ever seen. Um, you know, 0:23:27.920 --> 0:23:32.240 I mean everything. You know, it was socialism in the 0:23:32.320 --> 0:23:38.119 greatest way. It was. The BBC is an institution that 0:23:38.280 --> 0:23:42.640 I will defend forever because it has it has been 0:23:42.640 --> 0:23:51.840 impartial through various different governments. Musically, it was completely um. 0:23:51.880 --> 0:23:55.240 You could not bribe anyone at the BBC to get 0:23:55.240 --> 0:23:59.280 your song on the radio, you know. So we got 0:24:00.600 --> 0:24:03.280 the best of what America had to offer. You know, 0:24:04.480 --> 0:24:07.560 I we got the best American music. Now it sounds 0:24:07.600 --> 0:24:09.920 like I'm being snobby. How do you do find the best? 0:24:10.400 --> 0:24:14.879 I never ever heard Kansas, you know, I had funny Okay, 0:24:14.920 --> 0:24:16.639 let's go back to what did your parents do for 0:24:16.680 --> 0:24:19.800 a living? Oh, my god, My my dad was an accountant. 0:24:20.200 --> 0:24:24.520 My mom was a housewife. You know how many how 0:24:24.520 --> 0:24:26.720 many kids in the film? Oh, there's three of us. 0:24:26.960 --> 0:24:31.280 I'm the eldest. Never had any chance. I never finished 0:24:31.400 --> 0:24:34.240 high school, let alone go to college. I I managed 0:24:34.280 --> 0:24:36.560 to get a job in a recording studio at the 0:24:36.600 --> 0:24:41.080 age of seventeen as a tea boy and U and 0:24:41.160 --> 0:24:45.000 even then I wasn't there was no you know, I 0:24:45.080 --> 0:24:48.119 was just one of those people that punk rock was 0:24:48.200 --> 0:24:54.080 my was my entry point, really, you know, because it's 0:24:54.240 --> 0:24:56.600 you know, to be a producer. It's like a catch 0:24:56.640 --> 0:25:00.439 twenty two situation. You know, you need the work to 0:25:00.520 --> 0:25:03.480 get the hit. But the only way you get the 0:25:03.560 --> 0:25:05.919 hit if you have the work. So you know what 0:25:06.160 --> 0:25:08.160 comes for the hit or the work, you know. And 0:25:08.840 --> 0:25:10.560 and I was lucky that there was this sort of 0:25:10.600 --> 0:25:14.760 wave called punk rock. And we don't get waves of music, 0:25:15.080 --> 0:25:18.160 you know, as you've always said, it doesn't mean so 0:25:18.280 --> 0:25:21.359 much anymore. And when it doesn't mean so much, you 0:25:21.400 --> 0:25:25.280 don't get waves. Um. But punk rock was a wave 0:25:25.320 --> 0:25:28.400 in the UK and on the eastern West coast of America. 0:25:29.280 --> 0:25:32.040 It was only when Green Day came many years later, 0:25:32.119 --> 0:25:36.440 that that punk thing actually traversed to Middle America. Funnily enough, 0:25:36.640 --> 0:25:38.960 the sex pistols in the clash never meant anything in 0:25:39.000 --> 0:25:43.520 Middle America. Um, but I wrote this wave. And I 0:25:43.560 --> 0:25:47.480 always used to say, what better than having bands who 0:25:47.480 --> 0:25:51.440 couldn't play than having a producer who couldn't produce? And 0:25:52.960 --> 0:25:55.960 so that was my that was my thing. And of 0:25:56.000 --> 0:25:58.360 course I got a hit record. And once I had 0:25:58.359 --> 0:26:04.280 a hit record, um in a September nine band called 0:26:04.280 --> 0:26:08.879 Susie and the Banshees with a song called Hong Kong Garden. Um, 0:26:08.920 --> 0:26:11.480 it was like, oh my god, I've got a hit. Now. 0:26:11.520 --> 0:26:13.880 You can look at your life in two ways. Once 0:26:13.920 --> 0:26:16.919 you have a hit. You can either go, aren't I brilliant? 0:26:17.400 --> 0:26:22.680 I can turn turns into gold? Or what I did? 0:26:22.720 --> 0:26:25.040 It was like, oh my god, I've had a hit. 0:26:25.600 --> 0:26:29.280 I can just work with really good people. That's how 0:26:29.320 --> 0:26:32.879 I looked at it. You know. So because I was 0:26:32.920 --> 0:26:36.080 a fanboy, you know, so I and you know, when 0:26:36.080 --> 0:26:39.560 you're very young, you have many many people you were saying, 0:26:39.600 --> 0:26:43.639 oh what boy a fan boy. I was just loved music, 0:26:43.680 --> 0:26:47.000 and I was very opinionated, and I and nowadays, when 0:26:47.040 --> 0:26:49.639 I ever I talked to young people and I'm either 0:26:49.720 --> 0:26:52.600 interviewing someone for a job or you know, I can 0:26:52.680 --> 0:26:54.600 learn a lot from them. If I say, you know, 0:26:54.680 --> 0:26:56.720 what sort of music do you like? And if a 0:26:56.800 --> 0:27:01.919 young person says, I like all sorts, no good? You 0:27:01.960 --> 0:27:04.840 know you shouldn't like all sorts of music. You should 0:27:04.880 --> 0:27:07.400 be opinionated when you're young, because when you get older, 0:27:08.160 --> 0:27:11.760 you you start to understand that everything has a value. 0:27:12.119 --> 0:27:16.040 But when you're young, that that that that narrow minded focus. 0:27:16.080 --> 0:27:18.560 You know, you're like a boxer going into the ring. 0:27:18.720 --> 0:27:21.480 You know, you you're focused on your career. And that's 0:27:21.480 --> 0:27:23.920 what I was. So I I just you know, I thought, 0:27:24.080 --> 0:27:27.200 what God EXTC I love extec, I'll go and produce them. 0:27:27.280 --> 0:27:31.080 And you know, I wanted to work with the creative, 0:27:31.240 --> 0:27:35.800 talented people. I had no ego that said I wanted 0:27:35.840 --> 0:27:38.760 to turn your rubbish act into a great act. So 0:27:39.160 --> 0:27:42.360 you know, every time I, you know, I had a hit, 0:27:42.560 --> 0:27:45.920 I would be offered all these bands who sounded like 0:27:46.119 --> 0:27:48.960 the band that I produced. You know, I've got nothing 0:27:49.000 --> 0:27:52.400 against a flock of seagulls. But just because I produced 0:27:52.440 --> 0:27:55.240 you two doesn't mean I should have produced the alarm 0:27:55.480 --> 0:27:57.880 or a flock of seagulls, you know, and I love 0:27:57.920 --> 0:28:00.680 them both, but it's just like, why so I used 0:28:00.720 --> 0:28:04.280 my success with one artist to expand, which is why, 0:28:04.720 --> 0:28:07.200 you know, at the height of that sort of era 0:28:07.240 --> 0:28:10.760 in n I went off and produced Joan Arma Trading 0:28:10.800 --> 0:28:14.280 and Peter Gabriel, which had nothing to do with punk rock, 0:28:14.880 --> 0:28:17.240 you know, but it was like, Okay, I've had success, 0:28:17.280 --> 0:28:23.440 these are creative, great artists, are going to work with them. Okay, 0:28:23.640 --> 0:28:27.480 you're talking about being opinionated. Needles to say, I am opinionated, 0:28:27.600 --> 0:28:31.480 and especially now and you're old, okay, but now more 0:28:31.520 --> 0:28:34.520 than ever, people don't like opinionated people. So when you 0:28:34.560 --> 0:28:36.919 were growing up, were you remember the group or people 0:28:37.240 --> 0:28:39.280 either love you or hear you? What was it like? No, 0:28:39.480 --> 0:28:42.600 you're you're, you're you're You're supposed to be opinionated when 0:28:42.680 --> 0:28:45.680 you're young, you know, you're you know. I would never 0:28:45.760 --> 0:28:49.760 let guitarists bend notes because that was not you know, 0:28:49.840 --> 0:28:52.640 that was from that era before us. That was from 0:28:52.640 --> 0:28:54.920 the sort of you know, even though I produced Peter 0:28:54.960 --> 0:28:57.640 Gabriel that was sort of Genesis and all those the 0:28:57.680 --> 0:29:01.600 Eagles they all did, you know, it was long boring 0:29:01.680 --> 0:29:05.760 guitar solos. It was not what we wanted, short, sharp, 0:29:05.920 --> 0:29:10.280 angry songs, you know, And of course that's dismissing everything 0:29:10.320 --> 0:29:14.960 that Dave Gilmour ever did by saying, don't bend notes. Now. 0:29:15.000 --> 0:29:17.760 Of course I love all sorts of things like that, 0:29:17.880 --> 0:29:21.640 so you know, um, and actually no, I'm not as 0:29:21.640 --> 0:29:24.320 a pinion. You know you are, and you're very but 0:29:24.480 --> 0:29:28.200 you are more the exception, Bob, because I think I 0:29:28.320 --> 0:29:31.760 hated the Eagles growing up, I hated the Eagles. Now 0:29:31.960 --> 0:29:35.600 I actually have Hotel California on a playlist. I listened 0:29:35.640 --> 0:29:40.880 to it for fun. You know, who would have thought, okay, 0:29:40.880 --> 0:29:42.800 why and how did you get a gig as a 0:29:42.880 --> 0:29:45.680 tea boy For those people don't know that essentially the 0:29:45.720 --> 0:29:48.720 lowest below you low even a second engineer. And sometimes 0:29:49.320 --> 0:29:52.240 what drove that I drove that fear. Fear has been 0:29:52.240 --> 0:29:56.560 my driving force throughout my career. Fear has been the 0:29:56.600 --> 0:30:02.360 thing that has has has kept me not complacent. Fear 0:30:02.440 --> 0:30:06.360 has been the thing that uh enables me to do 0:30:06.880 --> 0:30:12.800 to overachieve, because I know if I don't overachieve, my 0:30:13.040 --> 0:30:20.800 natural talents will only enable me to flip burgers at McDonald's. 0:30:21.120 --> 0:30:23.640 I mean seriously, because I know I didn't go to college. 0:30:23.680 --> 0:30:25.760 I didn't even finish high school. I didn't, you know, 0:30:25.800 --> 0:30:28.440 so when I got that job in a recording studio, 0:30:28.840 --> 0:30:32.480 it was like my, my, my. It was fear joined 0:30:32.520 --> 0:30:35.440 with wonder. You know. It's that wonder of of of 0:30:35.600 --> 0:30:39.400 the of of what it was, the thing that you 0:30:39.400 --> 0:30:42.080 would do. And I still have that, you know, those 0:30:42.160 --> 0:30:46.760 moments and this doesn't happen so much anymore because you know, 0:30:46.840 --> 0:30:49.680 records are made by committee, records are made one person 0:30:49.720 --> 0:30:52.800 at a time. You know, it's just and the reason 0:30:52.880 --> 0:30:57.400 for that is is technology. Because technology enables you to 0:30:57.480 --> 0:30:59.600 do that. So and I've said this before and I 0:31:00.000 --> 0:31:04.160 always say this technology will always lead the art form. 0:31:04.200 --> 0:31:07.760 The people who make the technology they don't know how 0:31:07.800 --> 0:31:11.160 the artists are going to use it, because artists take 0:31:11.200 --> 0:31:14.600 the technology and they abuse it. That's how it should be. 0:31:15.440 --> 0:31:18.880 You know, That's how distortion came about. You know, distortion 0:31:18.920 --> 0:31:22.040 didn't come about from the from the from the people 0:31:22.040 --> 0:31:24.800 who invented amts. It came about through people turning it 0:31:24.920 --> 0:31:28.680 up to loud. Okay, but why did you get a job. 0:31:28.760 --> 0:31:31.240 What was your motivation to work in a recording studio 0:31:31.320 --> 0:31:35.480 to begin with, because I didn't want to fucking flip Burgers. 0:31:35.760 --> 0:31:38.200 I talked to you, did you have that incredible sense 0:31:38.200 --> 0:31:41.640 of wonder about music? Always? When I was a bass 0:31:41.680 --> 0:31:46.360 player from the age of twelve, I I, um, you know, 0:31:46.480 --> 0:31:49.840 I was a musician and I loved playing the bass. 0:31:51.040 --> 0:31:52.560 And then when I got the job in the studio, 0:31:52.640 --> 0:31:55.640 my bass playing became less and less and and now 0:31:55.680 --> 0:31:57.520 I don't even own a basse, which is a bity 0:31:57.560 --> 0:32:01.240 because I do love just that love just sitting there 0:32:01.360 --> 0:32:04.440 playing it. You know, do you do you have natural 0:32:04.560 --> 0:32:08.120 music ability? I mean, I know after the Beatles, everybody 0:32:08.120 --> 0:32:11.160 I knew bought a guitar, but it was clear who 0:32:11.160 --> 0:32:13.440 could do it. I mean the story I always tell 0:32:13.480 --> 0:32:14.800 I was playing with a friend who is now we're 0:32:14.800 --> 0:32:17.560 going to change keys, and I said, I'm out. Okay, 0:32:17.920 --> 0:32:21.560 So do you have natural ability at music? Yeah? I 0:32:21.600 --> 0:32:24.560 think I do. I think I do, but but so 0:32:24.680 --> 0:32:27.760 many people do. I have a great analogy about about 0:32:28.760 --> 0:32:32.160 about the way the music businesses. Now. You know, there's 0:32:32.200 --> 0:32:36.280 because there are the gatekeepers are I mean, you can 0:32:36.360 --> 0:32:39.840 argue there's no official gatekeepers anymore. You know, the gatekeeper 0:32:39.920 --> 0:32:45.920 is just and an artificial algorithm based on people, you know. 0:32:45.960 --> 0:32:48.560 But the way I've always looked at it, I've I've 0:32:48.880 --> 0:32:51.080 I've looked at it. It's like the you know, the 0:32:51.120 --> 0:32:55.560 New York Marathon. You know, there's forty people running, and 0:32:55.600 --> 0:32:59.560 I would never stop those forty people running. You know, 0:32:59.600 --> 0:33:02.800 they doing it for fun, right, that's the music business. 0:33:02.880 --> 0:33:05.320 Everyone's running for fun. There are on a fun run. 0:33:05.320 --> 0:33:08.000 I would never stop them. But the ones I'm interested 0:33:08.040 --> 0:33:11.560 in are those five Ethiopians at the front. Those are 0:33:11.560 --> 0:33:14.840 the ones I really because they want to win. Those 0:33:14.880 --> 0:33:17.000 are the ones I want to help with their career. 0:33:17.320 --> 0:33:19.440 And that's how I see. You know, my job is 0:33:19.520 --> 0:33:23.800 to is to always recognize those five Ethiopians at the front. 0:33:24.200 --> 0:33:26.720 You get the analogy, don't you. Boy? Of course, how 0:33:26.760 --> 0:33:30.440 good an engineer are you? I was never a great engineer. 0:33:30.520 --> 0:33:35.360 I was. I was a taypop. But you know, my 0:33:35.720 --> 0:33:40.800 instincts were always just too but maybe not being taught, 0:33:41.080 --> 0:33:43.760 not being a very good learner or a slow learner. 0:33:44.240 --> 0:33:48.440 I tended to to only learn the things that I needed, 0:33:48.800 --> 0:33:51.720 and I think that's probably a good thing. And I've 0:33:52.360 --> 0:33:55.640 a lot of people who are very clever, they don't 0:33:55.640 --> 0:33:58.960 they learn everything. And I could never learn everything. I 0:33:59.080 --> 0:34:03.240 just had this I had this thing where I I 0:34:03.280 --> 0:34:05.719 was just clever enough to learn the things that I 0:34:05.760 --> 0:34:08.040 needed to learn, even though I didn't know what they 0:34:08.040 --> 0:34:10.279 were at the time. It was just a natural thing, 0:34:11.040 --> 0:34:13.600 you know. So how did you decide you were going 0:34:13.640 --> 0:34:18.000 to be a producer? What what pushed you internally other 0:34:18.040 --> 0:34:21.880 than fear. Well, my my my recording studio. My boss 0:34:22.840 --> 0:34:26.280 allowed us at weekends to take in if the studio 0:34:26.360 --> 0:34:29.279 was empty, we could take in our own projects, you know, 0:34:29.360 --> 0:34:31.560 and just to go and learn how to become a 0:34:31.600 --> 0:34:34.759 better engineer. So the first project I took into the 0:34:34.760 --> 0:34:40.960 studio was was a new wave band who were called Ultravox. 0:34:41.200 --> 0:34:46.120 Now this was the Ultravox, the first version of Ultravox, 0:34:46.160 --> 0:34:48.839 who had a different singer actually and a guy called 0:34:48.920 --> 0:34:52.520 John Fox. They were much more like Punky Roxy music. 0:34:53.120 --> 0:34:55.960 And and I did their demos in the studio and 0:34:56.000 --> 0:34:58.760 it was through those demos that they got a record 0:34:58.800 --> 0:35:02.400 deal and and uh, and that's how I got my 0:35:02.480 --> 0:35:12.720 first ever production, you know. Okay, so when the world 0:35:12.760 --> 0:35:17.439 opened after Susie, uh, the next record was what Well, 0:35:17.480 --> 0:35:20.759 So Susie came about through Johnny Thunders actually from the 0:35:20.760 --> 0:35:23.680 New York Dolls. I produced his album, which a lot 0:35:23.719 --> 0:35:25.640 of people still like, but that wasn't a hit, So 0:35:25.640 --> 0:35:30.920 Susie was the first hit. Then I did UM, I 0:35:30.960 --> 0:35:34.000 did XTC, I did a bank called the Members, I did. 0:35:34.400 --> 0:35:37.040 I did a lot of punk rock in those days, 0:35:38.160 --> 0:35:42.400 and oh well, I didn't do I seem to remember 0:35:42.440 --> 0:35:44.560 that by the time I got the call for you too, 0:35:44.760 --> 0:35:48.719 I'd already I was already a name for sure. I mean, 0:35:48.760 --> 0:35:52.000 I was you two second well good needles to say 0:35:52.040 --> 0:35:55.640 you could close anybody in a meeting. But for yourself 0:35:55.680 --> 0:35:59.359 at that time, why you were you? What skill were 0:35:59.400 --> 0:36:03.279 you bringing into the studio that major projects for success? Well, 0:36:03.320 --> 0:36:06.080 as I say it was it was my enthusiasm, it 0:36:06.120 --> 0:36:10.960 was my being. Okay. I remember the first time I 0:36:11.000 --> 0:36:15.279 ever saw my name in in in uh In in 0:36:15.400 --> 0:36:20.120 the Enemy, I think it was or melody Maker. I 0:36:20.239 --> 0:36:23.359 was called omnipotent, and I thought this was fucking great. 0:36:23.400 --> 0:36:25.160 And then I looked it up and I realized it 0:36:25.200 --> 0:36:29.160 wasn't actually that that great word, but I didn't know 0:36:29.200 --> 0:36:32.560 what it meant. Um. Basically, I would go to the 0:36:32.600 --> 0:36:35.200 Marquee Club, I would go to all these gigs. I 0:36:35.239 --> 0:36:41.479 was around town looking at these bands, and even though 0:36:42.360 --> 0:36:44.360 you know, not all my records were hit, but but 0:36:45.360 --> 0:36:48.400 you know the Johnny Thunders album and the Ultravox album, 0:36:48.719 --> 0:36:52.879 and the and and the Susie and the Banshees album, 0:36:53.000 --> 0:36:57.680 and then the Members and XTC and there were more. 0:36:58.080 --> 0:37:00.000 There were more. I'll have to okay with I'll be 0:37:00.440 --> 0:37:03.160 I'm not. I don't need an exhaustive list. But when 0:37:03.200 --> 0:37:06.319 you went into the studio, needless to say, can't some 0:37:06.440 --> 0:37:09.760 come with the songs written, Some can play their instruments, 0:37:09.800 --> 0:37:13.960 some do not. So what was your skill in taking 0:37:14.000 --> 0:37:17.360 the raw talent of the performer and ending up with 0:37:17.440 --> 0:37:25.880 a recording? My skill, I will instincts I I and 0:37:25.920 --> 0:37:29.080 I like to think that when I I've always said 0:37:29.120 --> 0:37:32.680 there are two sorts of producers. Let's let's just take 0:37:33.840 --> 0:37:37.520 I'll say let's say, well, I won't say you too, 0:37:37.560 --> 0:37:40.560 I'll say Dave Matthews Man, for instance. You know this 0:37:40.680 --> 0:37:42.880 came way way further down the line, But there's two 0:37:42.880 --> 0:37:45.239 sorts of producers. One will look at Dave Matthews Man. 0:37:45.560 --> 0:37:49.560 They'll see Dave Matthews He's the guy. He's like, obviously 0:37:49.640 --> 0:37:53.719 the main guy. I'll go and and work on him. 0:37:53.880 --> 0:37:56.440 I'll work that he you know, I'll make sure he 0:37:57.239 --> 0:38:00.560 me and him have this this this thing. I'm the 0:38:00.600 --> 0:38:03.120 other sort of producer. I look at the band and 0:38:03.160 --> 0:38:06.200 I go, Okay, where are the wheat links. Where's the 0:38:06.280 --> 0:38:10.000 person who's not feeling that confidence. I'll go and talk 0:38:10.040 --> 0:38:12.520 to them, because I know that the Dave or the 0:38:12.719 --> 0:38:16.719 or the Bonno or whoever will always you know, they 0:38:17.000 --> 0:38:20.080 don't need to ingratiate myself with them. They have the ego, 0:38:20.480 --> 0:38:24.479 they're fine. But maybe that bass player, he's quiet. He's 0:38:24.520 --> 0:38:26.680 the one that the rest of the band are slightly 0:38:26.880 --> 0:38:30.880 mocking or something like. You know, Mike my I've become 0:38:31.000 --> 0:38:34.200 so good at this, Bob. I can almost tell who 0:38:34.239 --> 0:38:37.840 plays what instrument in a band just by meeting them, 0:38:37.880 --> 0:38:41.680 because I see this sort of you know, I love 0:38:41.800 --> 0:38:45.799 the village. I love the the infrastructure of of of 0:38:45.920 --> 0:38:50.719 a of a working of a working organism, you know 0:38:50.800 --> 0:38:54.200 I I see it not as a Okay, So you 0:38:54.320 --> 0:38:57.960 find the weak link and you work with them. How 0:38:58.000 --> 0:39:01.280 other than they're one particular skill, How does that trans 0:39:01.400 --> 0:39:04.160 lead to the others and make the project better? Well, 0:39:04.200 --> 0:39:07.400 they don't need the others don't need well, because you 0:39:07.400 --> 0:39:10.520 are only as strong as your weakest linked right, So 0:39:10.880 --> 0:39:12.960 if I work on the weakest linked, then the whole 0:39:12.960 --> 0:39:18.160 thing will become better. Um, and you know one thing 0:39:18.200 --> 0:39:21.879 I didn't. It's just common sense, you know, for me. 0:39:22.640 --> 0:39:25.239 And this sounds fucking stupid to say, but a lot 0:39:25.320 --> 0:39:28.640 of people don't think of this, is that a record 0:39:28.719 --> 0:39:32.080 has to get better the longer time you work on it. 0:39:32.320 --> 0:39:35.239 And that sounds stupid, well, of course, but so many 0:39:35.320 --> 0:39:38.719 people their records go off courts. You know how many 0:39:38.719 --> 0:39:42.440 people have you met After the first week they go, oh, Bob, 0:39:42.719 --> 0:39:46.000 the album sounding great. We want a great drum sound. 0:39:46.120 --> 0:39:48.920 And then after two months they're they're saying, Bob, something's 0:39:48.960 --> 0:39:52.080 gone wrong. They're pulling their head, they're pulling their hair out. 0:39:52.400 --> 0:39:54.880 And you know, my job as the producer is to 0:39:55.000 --> 0:39:59.160 see that and to realize when that's happening. You know, 0:39:59.440 --> 0:40:02.399 it's your I always say, it's like I'm the I'm 0:40:02.400 --> 0:40:05.280 the captain of the ship. My job is to steer 0:40:05.360 --> 0:40:09.080 that ship safely to port. Now, the Titanic was a 0:40:09.120 --> 0:40:11.959 fucking great ship, but look what came to that. Let's 0:40:11.960 --> 0:40:14.640 assume they come into the sort with a song. Might 0:40:14.719 --> 0:40:19.600 you say, need another verse, change a lyric? Would you 0:40:19.680 --> 0:40:23.320 go into those specific creative elpments. But of course I would. 0:40:23.960 --> 0:40:28.200 But I go back to what I said earlier. I 0:40:28.239 --> 0:40:32.160 wanted to work with the best people. You know, I'm 0:40:32.200 --> 0:40:36.160 not a Svengali. Well, i am in my own way, 0:40:36.239 --> 0:40:41.160 but I'm not this, you know, it's it's not for me. 0:40:41.440 --> 0:40:45.160 I'm not like a film director. A film director is dictatorial, 0:40:45.800 --> 0:40:49.680 you know. A record producer is all about collaboration. And 0:40:49.719 --> 0:40:53.000 if I feel when I meet them and see them live, 0:40:53.600 --> 0:40:59.440 that there's enough wiggle room between the creative and me. 0:41:00.160 --> 0:41:02.680 You know, I'm not the sort of producer who who 0:41:02.800 --> 0:41:05.760 is proud to say I had to fire the drummer. 0:41:06.200 --> 0:41:09.239 Who the funk am I to say I had to 0:41:09.320 --> 0:41:12.800 fire the drummer that band? Maybe the drummer his job 0:41:13.320 --> 0:41:16.239 was not just the drumming. His job was to tell 0:41:16.280 --> 0:41:19.839 the singer your ship write better lyrics. You know, did R. E. 0:41:20.000 --> 0:41:23.600 M Ever have a hit record after Bill Berry left? No? 0:41:24.239 --> 0:41:27.400 They had the best drummers in the fucking world, but 0:41:27.760 --> 0:41:32.839 they never had a Yet. There's a reason why the 0:41:32.960 --> 0:41:35.840 greatest musician is not always the best, because it's the 0:41:35.920 --> 0:41:38.759 infrastructure of the band and what their job is. And 0:41:38.800 --> 0:41:42.440 who am I to say, you know, fire the drummer. 0:41:43.000 --> 0:41:47.319 You know, it's that's that's my punk ethic. Still, would 0:41:47.360 --> 0:41:50.080 you ever bring in ringers? Would you ever bring in 0:41:50.160 --> 0:41:53.080 studio players to play parts? And maybe the part of 0:41:53.400 --> 0:41:55.960 you know, completely of one of the band members, Na 0:41:56.920 --> 0:41:59.880 Mick Jagger brought in Anton fig to play the bass drums, 0:42:01.760 --> 0:42:04.640 because I mean, Charlie Wats is fantastic and his and 0:42:04.719 --> 0:42:08.960 his and his snare drum is always great. But but 0:42:08.960 --> 0:42:11.160 but this was in the days where you you know, 0:42:11.200 --> 0:42:13.640 there was no sampling or anything, so we literally brought 0:42:13.719 --> 0:42:17.640 in a bass drum to um to to to to 0:42:17.719 --> 0:42:20.880 replace the bass drum. But you know, his foot was 0:42:20.960 --> 0:42:25.000 sometimes not so good. But in general, no, I would 0:42:25.520 --> 0:42:27.759 you know, I have the patience of a saint. I 0:42:27.800 --> 0:42:30.840 mean I will sit with someone for hours and hours 0:42:30.920 --> 0:42:33.680 and hours to get the performance, and I will train 0:42:33.719 --> 0:42:35.640 them and I will make sure that they can do it. 0:42:36.360 --> 0:42:40.640 So before I enter a project, I would make sure 0:42:40.880 --> 0:42:44.920 that I can get an acceptable performance out of this musician. 0:42:45.640 --> 0:42:48.960 You know, so replacing a member of the band has 0:42:49.120 --> 0:42:54.560 so many unforeseen consequences. You know, you are not you're 0:42:54.640 --> 0:42:58.080 destroying the weakest link. You are not building the weakest 0:42:58.120 --> 0:43:02.440 link on left sets, Okay, do you have a preference 0:43:02.440 --> 0:43:05.279 and what's the difference between working with a solo act 0:43:05.360 --> 0:43:09.440 and a band. Well, my history just speaks itself. I'm 0:43:09.480 --> 0:43:13.239 I've had many more. I'll veer towards bands much more 0:43:13.320 --> 0:43:17.040 because for me, a band has this thing that that 0:43:17.320 --> 0:43:19.680 you know, I mean. But even when I work with 0:43:19.680 --> 0:43:23.200 with solo artists, I like to make, you know, a 0:43:23.280 --> 0:43:28.200 band idea. I like to I like to to make 0:43:28.239 --> 0:43:31.520 it seem like a band, you know, because that that 0:43:31.520 --> 0:43:34.280 that's But that's in the days of working with musicians 0:43:34.320 --> 0:43:36.759 who interact with each other. Now people don't do that. 0:43:37.840 --> 0:43:40.040 Is it's just a different world. I'm not I'm not 0:43:40.080 --> 0:43:42.400 saying the world was better before or worse. You know, 0:43:42.440 --> 0:43:45.080 I'm not a ludder when it comes to that, because 0:43:45.160 --> 0:43:50.000 technology will always lead the artful. Okay, so you say 0:43:50.040 --> 0:43:53.760 you were driven by fear at the beginning. You've worked 0:43:53.800 --> 0:43:56.839 with literally the biggest acts in the world. They don't 0:43:56.880 --> 0:44:00.800 get any bigger. Do you have any fear you're meeting 0:44:01.000 --> 0:44:05.520 anybody now? And would you still have anxiety and fear 0:44:05.920 --> 0:44:09.000 making a record with anybody? Or have you've done so 0:44:09.080 --> 0:44:11.960 much success, so much confidence of the anxiety and fear 0:44:11.960 --> 0:44:14.359 of disappeared. No, no, no, I still have the fear. 0:44:14.400 --> 0:44:18.279 I'm not really making records at the moment. I mean, 0:44:18.760 --> 0:44:23.480 I've sort of retired without even knowing it, weirdly, you know, 0:44:23.800 --> 0:44:25.640 I haven't been into the student, you know. I don't. 0:44:26.239 --> 0:44:28.640 I don't want to be one of those jobbing producers, 0:44:29.239 --> 0:44:32.440 you know. I I there's other things in life to 0:44:32.600 --> 0:44:35.040 do than you know. And I've done it for forty years. 0:44:35.040 --> 0:44:39.279 And as I say, my enthusiasm coupled with my fear. 0:44:39.400 --> 0:44:41.720 That's I mean, it's it's this sort of balance between 0:44:41.800 --> 0:44:46.680 fear and enthusiasm. Um, and as my fear has slightly gone, 0:44:46.760 --> 0:44:49.600 so is my enthusiasm. When I and I moved to 0:44:49.960 --> 0:44:53.920 Indonesia and and my you know, it's just a whole 0:44:54.000 --> 0:44:57.080 new set of music to learn, you know. And I 0:44:57.120 --> 0:44:59.640 know all about their local styles of music. I know 0:44:59.680 --> 0:45:03.640 they're their stars. I know that gossip. You know. I'm 0:45:03.719 --> 0:45:06.200 completely you know, I love it. It's it's a whole 0:45:06.200 --> 0:45:12.719 new thing for me. But but but yeah, fear, fear 0:45:12.800 --> 0:45:18.279 is something, but yeah, and my enthusiasm is Okay, let's 0:45:18.280 --> 0:45:20.600 go to some of these famous records. How did you 0:45:20.640 --> 0:45:23.440 get the job with Peter Gabriel and What was it 0:45:23.480 --> 0:45:26.560 like recording that record? Oh, well, Peter Gabriel was That 0:45:26.640 --> 0:45:29.799 was the first time I had been I mean, it 0:45:29.920 --> 0:45:32.080 was so left field that when I got the core 0:45:32.280 --> 0:45:34.480 from his manager, I actually thought it was one of 0:45:34.520 --> 0:45:40.720 my friends, um telling me, uh to, you know, making 0:45:40.719 --> 0:45:44.760 a joke, you know, because Peter Gabriel was definitely from 0:45:44.920 --> 0:45:51.360 the the the era that we were all um rebelling against, 0:45:51.920 --> 0:45:54.480 you know, because you know he came for you know, 0:45:54.520 --> 0:45:56.719 he wore a horse's head and you know, it's like 0:45:56.760 --> 0:46:01.360 Genesis were considered that the hippiest, dippiest, you know, boarding 0:46:01.440 --> 0:46:05.840 school type type music, you know. But but then I 0:46:05.920 --> 0:46:08.600 realized it wasn't someone phoning me up for a joke. 0:46:08.719 --> 0:46:11.360 So I had the meeting with Peter, and when we talked, 0:46:11.400 --> 0:46:15.239 it was like, wow, he sounds like he was you know, 0:46:15.280 --> 0:46:17.640 he was into the sort of records that I've made, 0:46:18.800 --> 0:46:22.040 um he And there was one thing that he said 0:46:22.080 --> 0:46:24.719 that really got me. He said, Steve, I want to 0:46:24.760 --> 0:46:30.279 make an album without any symbols, you know, and and 0:46:30.400 --> 0:46:33.640 because of the sorts of person I am and my enthusiasm. 0:46:33.680 --> 0:46:36.520 I mean, there's some producers who would go that's ridiculous. 0:46:36.719 --> 0:46:39.359 You can't make a run record without symbols, you know. 0:46:39.560 --> 0:46:43.319 But for me I and I see a problem and 0:46:43.360 --> 0:46:45.840 see that as a challenge, you know. So it was 0:46:45.920 --> 0:46:49.200 like my enthusiasm clicked in immediately and I thought, Wow, 0:46:49.239 --> 0:46:51.319 no symbols, that means I can do this, I can 0:46:51.360 --> 0:46:53.880 do that, and I can you know, And and that 0:46:53.960 --> 0:46:56.440 got me enthusiastic, the fact that he wanted to do 0:46:56.600 --> 0:47:02.040 things that were not like normal, you know. So even 0:47:02.040 --> 0:47:04.319 though that album was you know, when you listen to 0:47:04.360 --> 0:47:06.640 it now, it sounds like one of the darkest you know, 0:47:06.719 --> 0:47:11.200 it's songs about being in the mental hospital and you know, 0:47:11.400 --> 0:47:15.719 very very worthy songs about Steve Beaco, which I thought 0:47:15.719 --> 0:47:22.719 was about Phil Silver's by the way, umkay, you know 0:47:22.760 --> 0:47:24.800 I wondered. Okay, but let's let's stop for a second. 0:47:24.800 --> 0:47:26.840 When you work with Peter Gabriel, not only did he 0:47:26.880 --> 0:47:30.880 have experience, he's opinionated himself. So when you work with 0:47:30.920 --> 0:47:34.080 somebody like cam Or Jagger and Richard et cetera, do 0:47:34.200 --> 0:47:39.319 you your roles shrink or does it stay the same? Oh? No, 0:47:40.000 --> 0:47:42.879 I am you know you have to be if you've 0:47:42.880 --> 0:47:47.279 worked with so many different look. I have read interviews 0:47:47.320 --> 0:47:51.160 with my contemporaries who have so many set rules it 0:47:51.280 --> 0:47:55.080 absolutely astounds me. I have no rules. I mean, my 0:47:55.239 --> 0:47:57.279 job is the captain of the shape. As I said, 0:47:57.760 --> 0:48:01.440 it's you know, I mold myself off to what the 0:48:01.560 --> 0:48:05.560 artist wants. Keith Richards wanted to start work at midnight, 0:48:05.600 --> 0:48:08.000 one o'clock in the morning. That's what time we came 0:48:08.080 --> 0:48:12.600 to the studio. I mold myself around what the artists needs, 0:48:12.680 --> 0:48:15.759 and my my job is to work out how to 0:48:15.840 --> 0:48:19.520 get the best record within the parameters of what they 0:48:20.560 --> 0:48:24.520 you know. And also they must love their album. I mean, 0:48:25.360 --> 0:48:28.400 you know, they must. They at the end of the day, 0:48:28.800 --> 0:48:31.560 they must. It's their arts and they always you know, 0:48:32.520 --> 0:48:34.799 my artists always think of it as art. You know, 0:48:34.800 --> 0:48:38.920 they're artists, so they have to love the end results. 0:48:38.920 --> 0:48:41.760 And my job is to help them realize their vision. 0:48:42.320 --> 0:48:44.839 You know. As I say, I'm the worst producer. If 0:48:44.840 --> 0:48:48.000 someone says to me, Steve, I'll do whatever you want, 0:48:48.560 --> 0:48:50.880 I don't want that. I want someone to come up 0:48:50.880 --> 0:48:53.040 to me and say, Steve, I've got these ten ideas. 0:48:53.320 --> 0:48:55.279 I say, Okay, give me the ten ideas. Take a 0:48:55.280 --> 0:48:57.799 bit of that, take a bit of that. That one 0:48:57.840 --> 0:49:01.680 there that's great, but expanded, do this and then you know, 0:49:02.320 --> 0:49:08.279 um and uh yeah, that's that's that's how I do it. 0:49:08.280 --> 0:49:13.840 I need you know, I I can help grow the seed. 0:49:14.320 --> 0:49:18.520 I am not the seed. You know my job. Let's 0:49:18.560 --> 0:49:20.840 let's go back to Gabriel fan. I was not a 0:49:20.840 --> 0:49:23.080 big Genesis fan before that. There were so many prog 0:49:23.200 --> 0:49:25.600 rock bands, couldn't be into all of them. But I 0:49:25.640 --> 0:49:28.080 certainly was involved from the beginning of the solo career 0:49:28.080 --> 0:49:30.719 as a fan. Uh you know. I worked with Ezrin, 0:49:31.520 --> 0:49:34.400 then he worked with what's his name from King Grim's 0:49:34.440 --> 0:49:39.400 and Fripp, then he worked with you a couple of things. Hey, 0:49:39.920 --> 0:49:41.640 how did you feel did you think you should have 0:49:41.680 --> 0:49:44.560 been hired for the next record. Secondly, don't forget I 0:49:44.600 --> 0:49:48.560 have an American perspective. In America, the buzz on his 0:49:48.600 --> 0:49:52.279 solo career was not high. Two albums that come out 0:49:52.360 --> 0:49:56.920 Atlantic dropped him, came on Mercury, which is the worst label. However, 0:49:57.920 --> 0:50:00.640 and I know all the records. I firm he believed 0:50:00.680 --> 0:50:03.839 that is his best work. So when the record came 0:50:03.840 --> 0:50:08.000 out and it didn't immediately shoot to success, did that 0:50:08.120 --> 0:50:10.120 did you know how good it was? And how did 0:50:10.120 --> 0:50:13.040 you feel that he moved on from you? We loved 0:50:13.280 --> 0:50:16.120 making that album. I mean we it was in a 0:50:16.160 --> 0:50:19.279 way we had this, especially as Colodna used to come 0:50:19.320 --> 0:50:23.520 to the studio and because Colodna signed him to Atlantic 0:50:23.560 --> 0:50:26.160 and eventually dropped him and then re signed him to Geffen, 0:50:26.239 --> 0:50:31.719 as you know the story. But but but you know, uh, 0:50:31.920 --> 0:50:35.120 I mean, you know, we we we were. He used 0:50:35.120 --> 0:50:37.160 to come over from l A. And when when we 0:50:37.239 --> 0:50:41.520 knew he was coming, we would turn the air conditioning 0:50:41.640 --> 0:50:45.880 up so so high in the studio that it was 0:50:46.000 --> 0:50:49.960 fucking freezing just about ten minutes before he came into 0:50:49.960 --> 0:50:53.560 the studio. So when he came in, you could see 0:50:53.640 --> 0:50:57.040 him flinch because he was like Mr. California guy, and 0:50:57.080 --> 0:51:01.120 it was so cold, and but we pretended that it 0:51:01.200 --> 0:51:04.880 wasn't that cold. So we sat him down and played 0:51:04.960 --> 0:51:08.800 him the songs and we were freezing, but we wouldn't 0:51:08.800 --> 0:51:12.840 say it because we wanted that, you know, and it 0:51:12.960 --> 0:51:16.400 wasn't and it was childish, you know, but but we 0:51:16.480 --> 0:51:20.880 wanted our thing, you know. And Peter was fearless, you know, 0:51:21.320 --> 0:51:25.239 it was like, you know, he wanted it to be 0:51:25.320 --> 0:51:29.000 different and m and we knew we had something good there. 0:51:29.600 --> 0:51:32.960 But but but but it came out of joy, even 0:51:33.000 --> 0:51:36.440 though as I say the album is very dark. Um 0:51:36.480 --> 0:51:38.839 and I no, I never thought about working with him again. 0:51:39.080 --> 0:51:41.200 In those days, there was you know, there were so 0:51:41.280 --> 0:51:44.479 many records, and I never thought it was my job 0:51:44.600 --> 0:51:47.000 to stay with an artist forever. You know, you can, 0:51:47.560 --> 0:51:50.200 you know, you can argue that the George Martin model. 0:51:50.680 --> 0:51:53.480 But I liked the idea In those days. I used 0:51:53.520 --> 0:51:56.440 to think that I can work with so many different artists. 0:51:56.800 --> 0:52:00.400 It's why shouldn't you you know. I had sort of 0:52:00.520 --> 0:52:04.280 idea with you too. I I after every single album 0:52:04.320 --> 0:52:06.160 of theirs, I said no, I don't want to do 0:52:06.239 --> 0:52:09.080 the next one, and they said, okay, but can you 0:52:09.120 --> 0:52:11.760 do the next one? I went all right then, Literally 0:52:11.760 --> 0:52:15.080 I gave them an out after every time I worked 0:52:15.080 --> 0:52:16.520 with them, and they always asked me back for the 0:52:16.520 --> 0:52:20.600 first three. Um. But but no. With with Peter, it 0:52:20.680 --> 0:52:23.560 was yeah, it was that that air conditioning. That's a 0:52:23.600 --> 0:52:26.320 true story. We used to do it just for fun, really, 0:52:26.400 --> 0:52:33.000 because we wanted because you know, Colodner's idea of the 0:52:33.040 --> 0:52:35.600 best record in the world was the one that sold 0:52:35.640 --> 0:52:38.439 the most, you know, I mean that was literally his 0:52:38.520 --> 0:52:45.680 way of thinking, and and we tended to disagree with that. 0:52:47.000 --> 0:52:49.960 Graciously we disagree with that, Mr Colodna, the best record 0:52:49.960 --> 0:52:51.920 in the world is not the one that sells the most. 0:52:52.080 --> 0:52:54.759 Now I can understand what he was talking about, but 0:52:54.920 --> 0:53:00.240 I as it was such a a a a an 0:53:00.440 --> 0:53:03.040 idea that he that he when he said that, it 0:53:03.120 --> 0:53:06.200 was like, how can you say that? It was so 0:53:06.320 --> 0:53:10.680 against what we were doing for us? You know that's 0:53:10.760 --> 0:53:14.000 that that you know we immediate I immediately lost any 0:53:14.080 --> 0:53:17.240 respect for him. Okay, how did you en they're poking 0:53:17.320 --> 0:53:21.759 up with you two? With you two? They that there 0:53:21.880 --> 0:53:27.120 was you remember Factory Records. Factory Records. Tony Wilson was 0:53:27.120 --> 0:53:29.239 a good friend of our What a lovely man, What 0:53:29.360 --> 0:53:33.160 a lovely lovely literally the most educated man in the 0:53:33.280 --> 0:53:35.640 music business. You would walk through me and Chester he 0:53:35.640 --> 0:53:38.200 would point stuff out. It's like unbelievable. I would just 0:53:38.239 --> 0:53:40.640 be quiet. He was a fan of information, Yeah he was. 0:53:40.719 --> 0:53:43.360 He was brilliant. And of course he had Factory Records, 0:53:43.360 --> 0:53:45.960 which had Joy Division. Now Joy Division had a producer 0:53:46.000 --> 0:53:51.240 called Martin Hannett and Martin Hanne. He was all parts 0:53:51.239 --> 0:53:53.160 of Joy. He was almost like a fifth member of 0:53:53.239 --> 0:53:56.839 Joy Division. He he was their sound. He put them 0:53:56.840 --> 0:53:58.680 all to He was a bit older than them. Obviously, 0:53:58.800 --> 0:54:01.879 and so you two when they were looking for their 0:54:02.040 --> 0:54:07.319 first producer, they chose Martin Hannett. And you know in 0:54:07.360 --> 0:54:10.840 those days when you and and Martin Hannet went and 0:54:10.880 --> 0:54:15.279 recorded one single with them and they loved it, song 0:54:15.320 --> 0:54:18.319 called the eleven o'clock TikTok, and they asked him to 0:54:18.400 --> 0:54:22.920 produce the album. Well, what happened was that Ian Curtis 0:54:22.920 --> 0:54:29.480 from Joy Division committed suicide and Martin Hannitt um decided 0:54:30.440 --> 0:54:32.640 it really affected him in a bad way. And and 0:54:33.160 --> 0:54:37.120 you know, because he was like really close close to 0:54:37.200 --> 0:54:39.239 Joy Division, and so he said to YouTube that he 0:54:39.239 --> 0:54:42.680 couldn't produce their album. So you two then went back 0:54:42.680 --> 0:54:45.080 to their list of producers. A number two on the 0:54:45.239 --> 0:54:49.279 list was Steve lily White. So I got this is 0:54:49.320 --> 0:54:52.320 a funny story. I got flown to the West coast 0:54:52.360 --> 0:54:55.440 of Ireland to see a gig and I was told 0:54:55.440 --> 0:54:58.239 I would be met by a Mr McGinnis. Now in 0:54:58.239 --> 0:55:01.960 those days, in those days, if you are if you 0:55:02.719 --> 0:55:07.480 in you're met by a Mr McGinnis at Cork airport. 0:55:08.320 --> 0:55:12.400 I was really expecting a guy on a tractor with 0:55:12.400 --> 0:55:16.719 with straw out of his ears. You know, get to 0:55:16.760 --> 0:55:20.640 the airport, come off, Hello, Steve, Paul McGinnis here as 0:55:20.719 --> 0:55:24.600 you know him, right, And I, oh, hope Paul, and 0:55:24.960 --> 0:55:27.200 come with me. So we got in his car and 0:55:27.239 --> 0:55:31.080 we drove forty minutes to the gig, during which point 0:55:31.239 --> 0:55:35.480 he started to play the worst sounding demos I had 0:55:35.520 --> 0:55:41.120 ever heard. I mean, honestly, they were just so embarrassing. 0:55:41.640 --> 0:55:45.440 But for him, he was in salesman mode. You know, 0:55:45.440 --> 0:55:49.520 Paul McGinnis is a fantastic salesman. And he never once 0:55:49.760 --> 0:55:52.000 came to the student. He never gave an opinion on 0:55:52.160 --> 0:55:56.560 his artist's art because for him, why would he question 0:55:57.239 --> 0:56:00.640 his artists art if he was their manager. They do 0:56:00.760 --> 0:56:03.879 the art, he does the business, you know very much. 0:56:04.440 --> 0:56:06.359 He was that sort of a manager who I as 0:56:06.360 --> 0:56:09.399 a producer I love because he never questioned what we 0:56:09.400 --> 0:56:12.600 were doing in the studio. So anyway, he was like 0:56:12.719 --> 0:56:16.319 selling me on this terrible sounding demo in the car 0:56:16.480 --> 0:56:20.160 on his terrible shitty car speakers, you know, and I 0:56:20.239 --> 0:56:23.879 was my heart was starting to sink um. And then 0:56:23.960 --> 0:56:25.640 we we we got to the gig and it was 0:56:25.680 --> 0:56:29.000 in a in a in a school hall, and literally 0:56:29.160 --> 0:56:31.520 all the boys were on one side and all the 0:56:31.600 --> 0:56:34.560 girls were on the other side, and and I'm and 0:56:34.560 --> 0:56:37.839 I'm I'm standing in the middle, and I have only 0:56:37.880 --> 0:56:42.520 twenty three years old, but I feel old, you know. Um. 0:56:42.840 --> 0:56:46.520 So the band came on straightaway into I Will Follow, 0:56:46.760 --> 0:56:51.799 and I went, oh great, you know. So then it 0:56:51.920 --> 0:56:54.520 was a good gig. And there was something, you know, 0:56:54.800 --> 0:56:57.000 like everyone in those days, was that there's something about 0:56:57.040 --> 0:56:59.799 this band, you know, So we went to meet them 0:57:00.200 --> 0:57:05.239 stage afterwards. They had the personalities of teenage boys, which 0:57:05.280 --> 0:57:09.160 is basically mumbling, you know, but when they were on stage, 0:57:09.160 --> 0:57:13.240 they were not. You know that Borrow very much became 0:57:14.160 --> 0:57:19.720 out of his body, you know, he he um, he would. 0:57:19.840 --> 0:57:24.120 He's very able to get to a place that other 0:57:24.160 --> 0:57:28.680 people get to only with drugs, you know, that that thing. 0:57:28.840 --> 0:57:32.080 I mean, you know, drugs can get you to a 0:57:32.240 --> 0:57:36.560 very creative place. But I mean, I'm sober. I told 0:57:36.600 --> 0:57:39.160 you twenty three years I only got my Grammars after 0:57:39.200 --> 0:57:44.120 I got sober, and so you can be creative without that. 0:57:44.800 --> 0:57:49.040 But some people but but it's all but it's more difficult, 0:57:49.760 --> 0:57:52.000 you know. You can, you can to get to that 0:57:52.080 --> 0:57:55.080 place and and and Bono manages to get to that 0:57:55.120 --> 0:57:59.920 place without without external stimulation. And I think that maybe faith, 0:58:00.480 --> 0:58:04.400 you know, it may maybe a god belief that that 0:58:04.400 --> 0:58:07.080 that gives him that ability to just because he's the 0:58:07.120 --> 0:58:12.040 most cat handed person, you know. He's like, he's famously 0:58:12.080 --> 0:58:15.280 a bad a bad driver. Everyone says, don't get in 0:58:15.280 --> 0:58:18.920 a car with borrow, you know. But but he's like 0:58:18.960 --> 0:58:22.800 a ballet dancer on stage. But he's the most clumsy 0:58:22.880 --> 0:58:26.160 person you'll ever meet outside, you know, So he has 0:58:26.160 --> 0:58:30.360 this ability to just just become this uh, this swan 0:58:30.600 --> 0:58:34.120 when he's on stage. Now, living in Los Angeles, we 0:58:34.200 --> 0:58:36.680 had k Rock, which immediately when and I will follow. 0:58:37.680 --> 0:58:40.000 I certainly bought the album for a long time until 0:58:40.000 --> 0:58:42.720 our two baby. I was convinced it was the best one. 0:58:43.240 --> 0:58:47.120 Did you know what you had after making Boy? No? 0:58:47.920 --> 0:58:50.439 And you know what, they didn't either. No one really 0:58:50.520 --> 0:58:54.919 knew it's only and it was funny twenty year anniversary 0:58:54.920 --> 0:58:58.520 of Boy and and it was remastered and the band 0:58:58.560 --> 0:59:04.120 had to listen to the remastering and and and I 0:59:04.120 --> 0:59:06.720 think they've never heard the album obviously you don't, you 0:59:06.720 --> 0:59:11.480 know you you live, but they had to check the remastering. 0:59:12.080 --> 0:59:15.040 And I got a phone call from Bono's Steve our 0:59:15.120 --> 0:59:21.120 debut album, it's fucking great, you know, And I went well, yeah, 0:59:21.360 --> 0:59:24.720 thank you Bow, you know, because he didn't know, and 0:59:24.760 --> 0:59:27.040 he listened to all the production values and all the 0:59:27.120 --> 0:59:29.560 like weird little things that I did, and you know, 0:59:29.800 --> 0:59:33.880 and and for him it was like just you know, fantastic. 0:59:33.920 --> 0:59:36.320 And he actually went out and really gave you know, 0:59:36.400 --> 0:59:39.320 he truly believed it was a great album. Only on 0:59:39.360 --> 0:59:41.919 the twentieth anniversary, but he did say to me, Steve, 0:59:42.880 --> 0:59:44.760 it's really great. But there is one thing I don't like. 0:59:44.880 --> 0:59:47.040 I said, what's that? Mosis? I don't like the singer 0:59:49.480 --> 1:00:01.160 good Now, the Edge is famous for creating sounds with 1:00:01.240 --> 1:00:04.640 effects in the studio. How much time did you spend 1:00:04.760 --> 1:00:09.040 getting those sounds? Oh? Well, you know, Edge Edges famous 1:00:09.040 --> 1:00:14.160 for spending of his time getting the sound and one 1:00:14.240 --> 1:00:17.760 percent of the time recording it. You know, I mean 1:00:17.760 --> 1:00:21.120 that's his thing. I mean Edges a sonic. Uh. You know. 1:00:21.320 --> 1:00:23.880 Edge is the scientist of the band. He's the one 1:00:24.240 --> 1:00:27.200 he wears a white coat with with with pains in 1:00:27.200 --> 1:00:31.720 his top pocket and and and his slow and methodical 1:00:32.280 --> 1:00:38.560 and and and that's him. He's never perturbed. You know, 1:00:39.040 --> 1:00:43.080 very rarely does Edge get incredibly enthusiastic, And very rarely 1:00:43.360 --> 1:00:47.320 does he get incredibly down. He is the steady turtle, 1:00:47.800 --> 1:00:52.440 you know. He he's slow but steady. Botto is the 1:00:52.480 --> 1:00:56.640 fucking headless chicken, you know. As you know, Okay, you've 1:00:56.680 --> 1:01:00.080 had those guys right, you made these three record it, 1:01:01.200 --> 1:01:04.560 then they move on with you know. But it's kind 1:01:04.560 --> 1:01:08.720 of like Godfather three. They always pull you in. What's 1:01:08.720 --> 1:01:12.080 that about? And it seems like every recordgend to working 1:01:12.160 --> 1:01:16.000 out anyway. It's it's true. And and this is thanks 1:01:16.000 --> 1:01:19.680 to Mr McGinnis, who is very very very black and 1:01:19.720 --> 1:01:24.080 white in his thinking. Because it was on the Joshua Tree. 1:01:24.080 --> 1:01:27.400 I didn't do anything on Unforgettable Fire, you know, but 1:01:27.400 --> 1:01:31.560 but when the Joshua Tree was being made, they basically, um, 1:01:31.680 --> 1:01:34.560 they're they're they're eighteen months into the album. They've they've 1:01:35.120 --> 1:01:37.840 you know, and they had a meeting with Paul and 1:01:37.960 --> 1:01:42.040 so so legend has it. Paul said, look, you know, 1:01:42.680 --> 1:01:45.160 you're a big band, but we've got everyone on salary. 1:01:45.240 --> 1:01:47.280 We need to get out. We need to finish this 1:01:47.360 --> 1:01:52.800 album because we can't keep recording forever. And and he 1:01:52.840 --> 1:01:54.800 said when you you know, and he said, when you 1:01:54.880 --> 1:01:58.240 were recorded with Steve, you made records in like three 1:01:58.280 --> 1:02:02.919 months maximum, you know. By war took about three months. 1:02:02.960 --> 1:02:06.920 I think boy took six weeks October two months, and 1:02:07.120 --> 1:02:10.400 he said, why don't you get Steven maybe he can 1:02:11.000 --> 1:02:16.600 he can help finish off the album. So the band went, okay, great, 1:02:16.680 --> 1:02:22.760 so they invited me back and um and basically they 1:02:22.760 --> 1:02:25.400 were they were. They gave me the songs that they 1:02:25.880 --> 1:02:28.520 felt were the most For some reason, with them, I 1:02:28.600 --> 1:02:31.560 had this sort of reputation as the guy who would 1:02:31.560 --> 1:02:34.680 do the singles, you know, I was the guy. And 1:02:34.680 --> 1:02:37.400 it wasn't just mixing it says mixed by but that 1:02:37.400 --> 1:02:41.160 that is not much. It's much more like a relay race, 1:02:41.800 --> 1:02:45.440 you know, a YouTube. And now many people make records 1:02:45.480 --> 1:02:47.840 this way, funnily enough, but this was probably the first 1:02:48.240 --> 1:02:53.760 relay race that that um that in recording it. So basically, 1:02:54.520 --> 1:02:57.320 but Brian you know, and Danny Lanoir said to me 1:02:57.400 --> 1:02:59.480 they were they were burnt out on where the streets 1:02:59.480 --> 1:03:01.960 have no name. So they basically handed the baton to 1:03:02.040 --> 1:03:04.720 me and my job was to just carry on the 1:03:04.760 --> 1:03:08.120 production while they went and worked on One Tree Hill 1:03:08.240 --> 1:03:13.040 and some you know, some of the more obscure songs 1:03:13.080 --> 1:03:16.720 on site too, which still had to be finished, you know. 1:03:16.760 --> 1:03:19.360 But but I was like the guy I was ready 1:03:19.480 --> 1:03:22.600 dare I've always thought that that was my um my 1:03:22.800 --> 1:03:25.880 job with you two, okay, but what it like working 1:03:25.920 --> 1:03:29.440 on tracks that you didn't cut, that aren't finished and 1:03:29.720 --> 1:03:33.520 it was fine? You know. It's like I'm as I say, 1:03:33.640 --> 1:03:37.680 I'm there's no rules in my book, you know, because 1:03:37.680 --> 1:03:41.920 I'm never confident enough to to to to have any 1:03:42.000 --> 1:03:47.360 specific definite as to what I do. I mean, I 1:03:47.760 --> 1:03:51.120 had this drum sound, you know, in the early eighties, 1:03:51.360 --> 1:03:53.480 and I used to pretty much try and do this 1:03:53.560 --> 1:03:55.560 drum sound on all my records until I did an 1:03:55.560 --> 1:03:58.680 album with Marshall Crenshaw and I did that drum sound 1:03:58.720 --> 1:04:02.920 and completely fucking in the album, you know. So so 1:04:03.040 --> 1:04:07.000 I realized that that's not a rule, you know. So 1:04:07.080 --> 1:04:10.240 I don't have any rules about anything. I just I 1:04:10.440 --> 1:04:13.640 use something in the back of my you know. I mean, 1:04:13.680 --> 1:04:16.480 there's a faith I have, you know, even though I 1:04:16.720 --> 1:04:20.800 have no God God belief, I have a faith in 1:04:20.960 --> 1:04:25.160 humans and that if me and people get together, we 1:04:25.320 --> 1:04:30.360 can make something greater than what they can make on 1:04:30.400 --> 1:04:32.160 their own or what I can make on my own. 1:04:32.720 --> 1:04:37.120 Just some magic that that that we can come up with. Okay, 1:04:37.120 --> 1:04:40.080 tell us about the drum sound that that's just a 1:04:40.120 --> 1:04:43.200 load of you know, it's well with you two, And 1:04:43.200 --> 1:04:46.160 I'm very proud of this fact that that that Ireland 1:04:46.360 --> 1:04:49.320 had made rock stars before you too, you know thin 1:04:49.400 --> 1:04:53.600 Lizzie boomtown Rats, Rory Gallagher and Taste, you know, some 1:04:53.800 --> 1:04:56.760 very good artists, but they'd all had to they'd all 1:04:56.800 --> 1:04:59.560 gone to London to make their records. No one had 1:04:59.640 --> 1:05:04.600 made a rock album in um, in Dublin or in Ireland. 1:05:05.000 --> 1:05:07.680 And you two wanted to do their first album in Ireland. 1:05:07.680 --> 1:05:11.480 And and I remember walking into Windmill Lane Studios and 1:05:11.760 --> 1:05:16.240 in the actual studio area it was made for recording 1:05:16.240 --> 1:05:21.080 Irish folk music. It was very dead sounding um you know, 1:05:21.080 --> 1:05:23.680 so if you clip your hands it would you don't 1:05:23.680 --> 1:05:25.960 hear any echo. There was nothing. It was like not 1:05:26.200 --> 1:05:29.439 exciting sound and it's shit, I'm not going to get 1:05:29.480 --> 1:05:32.920 a great sound out of this. But actually when you 1:05:33.000 --> 1:05:36.280 walk through reception to get into the studio, there was 1:05:36.320 --> 1:05:40.960 this big area where the receptionists sat with the uh 1:05:41.000 --> 1:05:43.760 you know, there's no mobile phone so if you wanted 1:05:43.800 --> 1:05:45.920 to get and there was also winbill Lane was not 1:05:46.000 --> 1:05:49.360 just a recording studio, it was a video editing thing. 1:05:49.440 --> 1:05:51.480 There was three floors. The studio was in the in 1:05:51.520 --> 1:05:54.880 the ground floor, in the basement, so she sat there 1:05:54.880 --> 1:05:56.480 and the phone calls would come in and she would 1:05:56.720 --> 1:05:59.840 direct it off to different departments. You know, you remember 1:05:59.840 --> 1:06:05.280 the states right when when um so and I clapped 1:06:05.280 --> 1:06:07.600 my hands out there and it sounded like they had 1:06:07.640 --> 1:06:10.280 these stolen things on the on the waters handed great 1:06:10.360 --> 1:06:12.720 and I said, oh, so I got the studio manager. 1:06:12.760 --> 1:06:15.280 I said, look, I'd like to record the drums out here, please, 1:06:15.800 --> 1:06:17.760 and he looked at me like I was smoking crack 1:06:18.760 --> 1:06:20.760 and he said, no, this is where the all right, Steve, 1:06:20.880 --> 1:06:23.840 this is where the you know, tried to bad Irish accent. 1:06:23.920 --> 1:06:26.880 I'm sorry, this is where the receptionists. I said, well, 1:06:26.920 --> 1:06:29.280 what time did she go home? And he said, well, 1:06:29.360 --> 1:06:31.960 she goes home at six o'clock. I said, okay, well 1:06:31.960 --> 1:06:34.439 we'll set the drums up after six o'clock, at which 1:06:34.480 --> 1:06:37.960 point I got into trouble with Larry Mullins dad, because 1:06:38.000 --> 1:06:40.440 Larry was only seventeen and his dad used to come 1:06:40.440 --> 1:06:43.360 and collect him from the studio every day, so I had, 1:06:43.400 --> 1:06:47.960 you know, I had to placate his dad. And but 1:06:48.080 --> 1:06:52.040 we set the drums up outside and they sounded fantastic 1:06:53.000 --> 1:06:56.560 and and I and I'm very proud that I made 1:06:57.080 --> 1:07:01.000 this this sort of you know, punk It was sort 1:07:01.040 --> 1:07:04.880 of punk psychedelic tyme album. But but even then, you 1:07:04.920 --> 1:07:08.800 know that the Clever Money was not on YouTube. The 1:07:08.920 --> 1:07:12.880 Clever Money was on Julian Cope with Teardrop explodes. The 1:07:12.960 --> 1:07:15.800 Clever Money was on Echo and the money Men. You know, 1:07:16.920 --> 1:07:22.880 no one really put their money on YouTube. But you know, 1:07:23.520 --> 1:07:27.800 a mixture of of of dedication, a mixture of of 1:07:27.880 --> 1:07:34.760 mcguinness's vision of seeing the world rather than seeing the 1:07:34.800 --> 1:07:38.400 front cover of Enemy. I think, you know, to be honest, 1:07:38.440 --> 1:07:41.520 a lot of these artists once they got you know, 1:07:41.800 --> 1:07:43.960 for instance, Echo on the Money Men especially, you know, 1:07:44.040 --> 1:07:46.840 once a one once u their singer had been on 1:07:46.880 --> 1:07:49.240 the front cover of The Enemy, It's like, hey, I'm 1:07:49.280 --> 1:07:51.600 the biggest star in the world. You know. It's that, 1:07:51.760 --> 1:07:55.360 It's that mentality you two have, that sort of you 1:07:55.400 --> 1:07:57.680 know again had the fear of it. I think they 1:07:57.680 --> 1:08:01.120 had fear as well, you know, fear is it? Is 1:08:01.160 --> 1:08:04.080 it great driving force? Is there any you two album, 1:08:04.080 --> 1:08:06.920 whether the Unforgettable Fire that you didn't work on. I 1:08:06.960 --> 1:08:10.920 didn't work on Pop, I didn't work on one of 1:08:11.000 --> 1:08:15.080 the songs of something or other, They all they will 1:08:15.160 --> 1:08:17.400 mix up to me, Roy Roy, Roy Ray, So what 1:08:17.439 --> 1:08:19.559 did you What do you do? Because my other favorite 1:08:19.560 --> 1:08:21.759 is like Couldn't Baby, which is really on many levels 1:08:21.760 --> 1:08:24.560 of left field record from what came before? What do 1:08:24.640 --> 1:08:27.040 you do on that? I worked on? Oh god, my 1:08:27.160 --> 1:08:30.200 least favorite of all you two songs is Who's going 1:08:30.240 --> 1:08:33.800 to Ride Your fucking Wild Horses? I'll tell you the 1:08:33.800 --> 1:08:37.000 great story about that. Apparently, you know, they've had Joshua 1:08:37.080 --> 1:08:40.760 Tree and act on Baby and it was very successful. 1:08:40.800 --> 1:08:43.599 So it seemed like and they were still having trouble 1:08:43.680 --> 1:08:46.880 with acting Baby, similar thing, you know, to you know, 1:08:46.960 --> 1:08:49.879 eighteen months into recording. Oh my god, it's not finished. 1:08:50.080 --> 1:08:52.559 What can we do? We have to you know, one thing, 1:08:52.600 --> 1:08:55.720 it was like, it couldn't be anything like Joshua Tree. 1:08:56.000 --> 1:08:58.280 The idea was, you know, it had to be a 1:08:58.280 --> 1:09:00.639 complete you know, Bollo said this, we had to chop 1:09:00.720 --> 1:09:04.439 down the Joshua Tree. Very melodramatic, but you know, the 1:09:04.520 --> 1:09:06.559 idea was, we had to make a record that was 1:09:06.600 --> 1:09:11.400 not that was not like the Joshua Tree. And so 1:09:11.479 --> 1:09:14.360 I got invited in again to come and do my 1:09:14.520 --> 1:09:17.720 thing to the Redder. Dare come and pull it in, 1:09:17.880 --> 1:09:20.960 come and finish off the the important songs, you know. 1:09:21.600 --> 1:09:26.800 So I did even better than the Real Thing, Yeah, 1:09:26.880 --> 1:09:28.840 which is a great song. I love that song. But 1:09:28.920 --> 1:09:31.240 I was given Who's going to Ride Your Wild Horses? 1:09:31.400 --> 1:09:35.840 And and I have to say I I worked a 1:09:35.920 --> 1:09:41.360 month on that song, and I and I there's not 1:09:41.479 --> 1:09:44.600 very many songs that I twitch when I hear, you know, 1:09:44.720 --> 1:09:48.240 like you can see me. But the listener, if they're 1:09:48.240 --> 1:09:50.800 still listening, they've probably gone by now this one. And 1:09:50.800 --> 1:09:55.120 I'll believe they're riveted. Oh maybe they're not. Um, yeah, 1:09:55.160 --> 1:09:58.479 I would. I would twitch when when I still do 1:09:58.520 --> 1:10:01.719 whenever I hear it, because you know, for me production wise. 1:10:02.040 --> 1:10:04.960 But but but let me go back. The reason there 1:10:05.040 --> 1:10:07.519 was so much emphasis on that song was that they 1:10:07.520 --> 1:10:10.160 were having a meeting with Jimmy Irvine and they were 1:10:10.200 --> 1:10:14.360 playing rough mixes of Acting Baby, and like Jimmy, Jimmy 1:10:14.479 --> 1:10:17.439 was just a friend, you know, I don't I don't 1:10:17.479 --> 1:10:20.080 think he was there, or maybe he was their their 1:10:20.160 --> 1:10:22.639 A and R guy at the time, But anyway, they 1:10:22.640 --> 1:10:25.040 were meeting with Jimmy Irvine and and he was like, 1:10:25.120 --> 1:10:29.160 you know, confused because you two had become a rock 1:10:29.280 --> 1:10:33.000 band and that in America at the time was considered 1:10:33.040 --> 1:10:37.760 the most, um the greatest thing. They had no problem 1:10:37.800 --> 1:10:40.240 with rock bands. YouTube always had a problem being a 1:10:40.320 --> 1:10:42.720 rock band, you know. They didn't want to be a 1:10:42.840 --> 1:10:45.759 rock band. They wanted to to be an arts band, 1:10:46.320 --> 1:10:49.680 you know. So um So, Jimmy, I think was a 1:10:49.680 --> 1:10:52.759 little bit confused. I think when he heard Acting Baby 1:10:53.040 --> 1:10:55.799 until and they were they were listening to the songs 1:10:55.880 --> 1:10:59.120 and and they were talking about this new thing called 1:10:59.160 --> 1:11:03.559 house music. Right, And as they were talking about house music, 1:11:03.880 --> 1:11:06.360 Who's going to Ride Your Wild Horses? Came on the 1:11:06.400 --> 1:11:10.680 stereo and you guys, hey, yeah, that's some hart of 1:11:10.720 --> 1:11:14.880 the music. That's fucking house music. You can buy a 1:11:14.920 --> 1:11:17.640 new fucking house with that song, you know. So it 1:11:17.720 --> 1:11:20.840 had got the blessing of Jimmy Irvy because it was 1:11:21.040 --> 1:11:23.840 a house music, meaning you could buy a new house 1:11:23.880 --> 1:11:27.920 with that right as opposed to Manchester. Okay, that record 1:11:28.000 --> 1:11:32.120 was famously cut in Berlin. Does location effect the recording? Okay, 1:11:32.200 --> 1:11:36.720 that record was not cutting Berlin, of that record was 1:11:36.800 --> 1:11:39.760 cut back in Dublin. But the idea, and this is 1:11:39.800 --> 1:11:43.880 where you too succeed for me, is when they have 1:11:44.120 --> 1:11:48.160 a big idea, the big idea of the Joshua Tree 1:11:48.400 --> 1:11:52.960 was the desert, and I think that you feel that 1:11:53.040 --> 1:11:55.599 when you hear that album. The big idea for Acting 1:11:55.720 --> 1:11:58.679 Baby was Eastern Europe. They sort of stole it from 1:11:58.680 --> 1:12:01.200 Bowie and you know, but that's okay. That was the 1:12:01.240 --> 1:12:05.360 big idea for that album. The big idea for Um 1:12:06.160 --> 1:12:10.480 All that you Can't Leave Behind was retrospection. They absolutely 1:12:10.520 --> 1:12:14.679 managed to get that right. You know. Now, some big 1:12:14.720 --> 1:12:19.240 ideas don't work, you know. The big idea for No 1:12:19.400 --> 1:12:24.360 Line on the Horizon was North Africa, was belly Dancers, 1:12:24.520 --> 1:12:28.639 was hookers. They went to North Africa to record the album. 1:12:28.800 --> 1:12:32.680 None of that is you know, they were chasing a 1:12:32.760 --> 1:12:36.479 hit instead of keeping to their big idea, you know, 1:12:36.960 --> 1:12:39.439 the big idea when they when they get it right, 1:12:39.920 --> 1:12:44.200 they nail it. Okay, let's just go back to the 1:12:44.240 --> 1:12:47.679 drum sound. I think he said, let's just load back 1:12:48.040 --> 1:12:53.439 more times with me than everything my talk to with Crenshaw. 1:12:53.520 --> 1:12:57.120 What was the specific drum sound you use that clap 1:12:57.240 --> 1:13:01.840 brings up. Oh, well, he had his first album where 1:13:01.880 --> 1:13:06.720 he was considered you know, like Buddy Holly with the Glasses, 1:13:07.040 --> 1:13:09.840 and it was all there for his second album. You 1:13:09.840 --> 1:13:13.040 know that the album I did was called field Day, 1:13:13.160 --> 1:13:17.880 and I basically recorded I mean, I just put this 1:13:18.040 --> 1:13:23.760 really big ambiance sort of sound on it. And and 1:13:23.840 --> 1:13:29.519 he will still he he will defend that album. And 1:13:29.720 --> 1:13:32.760 subsequently I've had people say to me, oh, that's a 1:13:32.800 --> 1:13:34.920 special little gem that album. I don't know if you've 1:13:34.960 --> 1:13:39.280 ever heard it called field all right, Well, the song 1:13:40.479 --> 1:13:43.120 if ever You're on my Mind, whenever You're Whenever You're 1:13:43.160 --> 1:13:46.720 on my mind. Yeah, it's got a great sound, like exactly. 1:13:47.040 --> 1:13:51.240 But at the time I think people were slightly confused 1:13:51.320 --> 1:13:54.720 by the sound because they expected Marshall Grenshaw to come 1:13:54.720 --> 1:13:59.920 out sounding a lot less sort of cluttery. Maybe you're 1:14:00.000 --> 1:14:04.080 something I don't know if cluttery is a word. Sticky. 1:14:04.120 --> 1:14:06.519 Sticking with the drum sound, though, legend has it that 1:14:06.560 --> 1:14:09.160 you invented the gated drum sound. Is that true? Would 1:14:09.160 --> 1:14:13.360 you agree with? Well, I I certainly can lay claim 1:14:13.439 --> 1:14:16.680 to that, even though you know that it was a 1:14:16.720 --> 1:14:19.559 team effort like anything. You know, I only work as 1:14:19.560 --> 1:14:22.240 a team. I'm not you know, I've said this all along. 1:14:22.640 --> 1:14:26.680 You know, team efforts are what what I believe in. 1:14:26.920 --> 1:14:33.400 And yes, I it was certainly refined on the on 1:14:33.520 --> 1:14:36.599 the Pieter Gabriel album. But a lot of people call 1:14:36.640 --> 1:14:40.480 it gated reverb. It's actually just it's a gated ambience. 1:14:40.960 --> 1:14:43.200 I don't think I've ever used a gated reverb on 1:14:43.320 --> 1:14:46.240 anything in my life. I use a natural sound of 1:14:46.240 --> 1:14:49.120 a room, and I gate that. But you know, no 1:14:49.120 --> 1:14:51.120 one wants to hear technical stuff. They want to hear 1:14:51.160 --> 1:14:54.280 stories of drug taking with Keith. Okay, okay, so speaking 1:14:54.280 --> 1:14:55.720 and so tell us the story of working with the 1:14:55.760 --> 1:14:59.120 story of the Stones. Well, you know, basically, a real 1:14:59.200 --> 1:15:02.320 man never turns down the rolling stones, you know, And 1:15:02.680 --> 1:15:05.439 back in those days, I considered myself a real man, 1:15:05.600 --> 1:15:09.200 even though I knew the moment I got in there 1:15:09.200 --> 1:15:16.200 and I heard and well, okay, they they they auditioned 1:15:16.840 --> 1:15:21.160 a handful of producers. Basically, I think Mick Jagger called 1:15:21.240 --> 1:15:23.840 up this is how I heard the story, called up 1:15:23.880 --> 1:15:27.519 Elton John and said, who is there? We need a producer. 1:15:28.160 --> 1:15:30.200 You know, there's there's there's a lot of tension in 1:15:30.240 --> 1:15:32.439 the studio at the moment. We need someone to diffuse 1:15:32.479 --> 1:15:34.920 the situation, you know. And I'll tell you why there 1:15:35.000 --> 1:15:38.000 was tension when I get to it. We need to 1:15:38.040 --> 1:15:42.320 diffuse the situation. Who is there? And Elton John, who 1:15:42.479 --> 1:15:46.240 you probably know still gets the top ten every week. 1:15:45.680 --> 1:15:49.680 He's an absolute because he's you know, the great thing 1:15:49.680 --> 1:15:52.120 about Elders that he's never written a lyric in his life, 1:15:52.320 --> 1:15:56.799 so he never feels like anyone is his competition because 1:15:57.120 --> 1:16:01.880 he's just a fan, you know, because really, a lyric 1:16:01.920 --> 1:16:04.720 writer is the one who shows their dirty underwear. No 1:16:04.760 --> 1:16:07.599 one else shows their dirty underwear, right, it's a lyric 1:16:07.640 --> 1:16:11.080 writer who shows their dirty fucking underwear. So Elton is 1:16:11.120 --> 1:16:15.280 completely oh, listen to anyone's lyrics because I have nothing, 1:16:15.640 --> 1:16:18.040 you know, I will never think something. There's no Carton, 1:16:18.080 --> 1:16:20.519 will never think anyone's lyrics are better than mine. So 1:16:22.160 --> 1:16:25.280 Elton said, well, there's this guy, you know, Steve Lillywhite. 1:16:25.360 --> 1:16:27.200 I like the sound of him. And there's so and so, 1:16:27.320 --> 1:16:32.320 and then said so I went and and the audition 1:16:32.439 --> 1:16:34.400 was to hang out with the Stones in Paris for 1:16:34.439 --> 1:16:38.120 the night, you know, in the studio, so they were 1:16:38.160 --> 1:16:40.720 working only you know, no one got the studio till 1:16:40.760 --> 1:16:44.799 about one in the morning, you know. So I remember meeting. 1:16:45.880 --> 1:16:49.320 When I arrived for my session, it was just as 1:16:49.360 --> 1:16:51.800 Rupert Hein was leaving. Who's a mate who was a 1:16:51.880 --> 1:16:55.960 mate of mine and lovely rightly man. And I hear 1:16:56.000 --> 1:16:58.200 from his widow. Yeah, probably I used to. I used 1:16:58.240 --> 1:16:59.560 to hear from him, but now I hear from the 1:16:59.560 --> 1:17:03.320 widow and he um, he's one of the He was 1:17:03.360 --> 1:17:05.080 one of the nicest guys. I don't think he would 1:17:05.120 --> 1:17:09.040 have lasted with not right for stones. But but I 1:17:09.400 --> 1:17:13.360 somehow managed to get the job, you know. And but 1:17:13.360 --> 1:17:16.480 but from from the moment I walked in, I realized 1:17:16.840 --> 1:17:20.240 when where you know, it was just after Nick's first 1:17:20.240 --> 1:17:23.320 solo album had been released, and you know, which was 1:17:23.439 --> 1:17:28.640 affectionately known as that fucking disco album by all in 1:17:28.680 --> 1:17:31.559 the studio. So I thought, oh, oh, now I know 1:17:31.760 --> 1:17:34.599 why they need to They want someone else to an 1:17:34.720 --> 1:17:40.479 arbitrator at least, you know. So I um, so my 1:17:40.600 --> 1:17:44.439 job was as much Henry Kissinger, you know, because I 1:17:44.439 --> 1:17:46.400 would have Mick going go and tell it because they 1:17:46.439 --> 1:17:49.600 never spoke to each other. Literally, they didn't speak, you know, 1:17:49.640 --> 1:17:51.800 even when they were out jamming, and they would jam 1:17:51.840 --> 1:17:56.479 a lot, and and you know, but I mean we 1:17:56.560 --> 1:17:59.640 did Harlem Shuffle, which was okay, I mean it was 1:17:59.640 --> 1:18:01.679 a cover version of an old Bob and our song 1:18:02.280 --> 1:18:04.760 we did. I mean, there was a song called one 1:18:04.840 --> 1:18:07.599 hit to the Body that was acceptable, but it wasn't 1:18:07.600 --> 1:18:10.240 a great album. They never toured it. And I always 1:18:10.280 --> 1:18:13.880 said I did the worst Rolling Stones album ever until 1:18:14.000 --> 1:18:21.600 the next one. You know, I don't I I you 1:18:21.640 --> 1:18:26.000 know they but you know, the Rolling Stones were, yeah, 1:18:26.800 --> 1:18:28.599 hey that I don't put them in one of my 1:18:28.800 --> 1:18:31.760 greatest bands. I think they you know, they were a 1:18:31.800 --> 1:18:34.439 great blues band, but I don't, you know. And they 1:18:34.439 --> 1:18:37.280 were very true to the roots, you know. I mean 1:18:37.960 --> 1:18:41.360 Keith richards Is is like as faithful to his music 1:18:41.360 --> 1:18:44.040 as he is to his wife, you know, And that's 1:18:44.080 --> 1:18:46.720 a very honorable that's a very honorable thing. Tell me 1:18:46.800 --> 1:18:49.800 the story of doing the Times and Twins in the 1:18:49.920 --> 1:18:52.280 Name of Love. I'm a huge Times and Twins fan, 1:18:52.800 --> 1:18:56.200 and I remember hearing that radio immediately had to buy it. 1:18:56.360 --> 1:19:01.120 And it doesn't really sound like they're big records thereaft No, 1:19:01.320 --> 1:19:03.760 it doesn't. And it doesn't sound like what they were 1:19:03.800 --> 1:19:07.519 like before that as well, because um I spoke to 1:19:07.520 --> 1:19:10.040 Tom Bailey the other day actually he was in in 1:19:10.320 --> 1:19:14.320 quarantine in Auckland. He's such a lovely man, such absolutely 1:19:14.520 --> 1:19:17.320 lovely man. Um. Because you know, as you get older, 1:19:17.320 --> 1:19:19.799 you realize that if you don't speak to various people, 1:19:20.160 --> 1:19:23.880 you probably will never speak to them again. Because listen, 1:19:23.960 --> 1:19:28.400 when our contemporaries are dying, it is so strange. Uh. 1:19:28.640 --> 1:19:30.200 You know, when you can see if the end is 1:19:30.200 --> 1:19:32.120 in sight, you say, well, what do I want to comment? 1:19:32.200 --> 1:19:34.120 I was talking to my shrink today. It's like I 1:19:34.160 --> 1:19:37.040 can't read every book. I can't watch every movie, can't 1:19:37.080 --> 1:19:39.240 listen every record. I have to choose it. It It makes 1:19:39.240 --> 1:19:41.400 me crazy. Before he said, I'll get to it. I'll 1:19:41.400 --> 1:19:44.160 get to it. No, I'm never gonna get to it. No, Well, 1:19:44.280 --> 1:19:46.800 I I don't care about I'd much rather be I'm 1:19:46.840 --> 1:19:48.639 a people person. So I just want to make sure 1:19:48.680 --> 1:19:51.759 that I get to speak to my old friends because 1:19:52.200 --> 1:19:54.840 you know, I know there's going to be a point 1:19:54.880 --> 1:19:57.920 where it's like, oh wait, maybe it's me. You know, 1:19:57.960 --> 1:20:02.719 who's the next one to go? You know, m absolutely so. Anyway, 1:20:02.760 --> 1:20:04.920 in the name in the name of Okay. So, before 1:20:05.000 --> 1:20:07.360 that song, the Thompson Twins were a sort of rag 1:20:07.400 --> 1:20:11.559 tag and tale hippie dippy band, six piece, seven piece 1:20:11.600 --> 1:20:18.559 band who played sort of psychedelic long pieces, you know, 1:20:19.280 --> 1:20:23.479 And we were doing the album in Rack studios in London, 1:20:24.479 --> 1:20:27.320 and it was an okay album It wasn't great, but 1:20:27.479 --> 1:20:30.920 it was at the very end of that album um 1:20:31.160 --> 1:20:34.280 and this Rat Studios was owned by Mickey Most who 1:20:34.400 --> 1:20:39.760 was like a legendary British producer and he um and 1:20:39.840 --> 1:20:45.160 he just took uh. He bought this new thing called 1:20:45.360 --> 1:20:47.920 this new drum machine called a movement drum machine, and 1:20:47.920 --> 1:20:51.320 it was put in the studio. Tom suddenly started playing 1:20:51.360 --> 1:20:55.400 it and got this immediate like rush of creativity. And 1:20:55.439 --> 1:20:59.559 of course, you know, for me as a producer, it 1:20:59.680 --> 1:21:02.320 was not like, oh it is I said great, you know, 1:21:02.400 --> 1:21:05.840 because that's where the enthusiasm comes in. You see someone 1:21:05.920 --> 1:21:09.120 being creative, you have to push them because you never 1:21:09.200 --> 1:21:11.640 know when they're not going to be creative, you know. 1:21:11.680 --> 1:21:14.720 So when they're being creative, my job is to is 1:21:14.760 --> 1:21:19.320 to to make sure everything is going well. So he 1:21:19.439 --> 1:21:22.479 started doing the drumbeat and then started you know, and 1:21:22.560 --> 1:21:24.559 he wrote the song there on the drum machine, and 1:21:24.560 --> 1:21:28.120 we did it and you know, and and and it 1:21:28.280 --> 1:21:30.720 was so different from the rest of the album. And 1:21:31.000 --> 1:21:33.240 I still think it's the only song I've ever had 1:21:33.240 --> 1:21:36.320 in the dance charts because in general, I didn't pick 1:21:36.360 --> 1:21:38.280 records with drum machines, and I you know, I much 1:21:38.280 --> 1:21:41.800 prefer a real drummer. But Tom's enthusiasm was so great. 1:21:41.880 --> 1:21:44.559 And when we made this record, and of course then 1:21:45.240 --> 1:21:48.439 you know they went on and and and and carried on. 1:21:49.160 --> 1:21:54.120 But but but you know it wasn't you know that 1:21:54.240 --> 1:21:58.840 that their music subsequently was not necessarily my style? You know, 1:21:58.960 --> 1:22:02.360 I loved because you know, I would not say anything 1:22:02.360 --> 1:22:04.439 bad about it, because you know, when you know someone, 1:22:04.520 --> 1:22:07.120 you give them the benefits of the doubt for their art. 1:22:07.360 --> 1:22:12.360 Of course, you know. Okay, okay, since you mentioned rack, Hey, 1:22:12.760 --> 1:22:15.640 does the studio make a difference? Be do you have 1:22:15.720 --> 1:22:18.799 a preferred studio? Three? Would you rather have the band 1:22:18.800 --> 1:22:22.200 live in their hometown or to relocate to make the rest? Oh? 1:22:22.240 --> 1:22:24.680 My god? Ay do I have a favorite studio? Well, 1:22:24.680 --> 1:22:29.439 in those days, the two prerequisits three prerequisites. One was 1:22:29.520 --> 1:22:33.400 that it was near where I lived, because I needed 1:22:33.439 --> 1:22:36.799 to get there. Two, I liked a good live area 1:22:36.880 --> 1:22:40.160 where I could if I wanted to, or some of 1:22:40.200 --> 1:22:42.920 the times where I always did make that drum sound. 1:22:43.800 --> 1:22:46.160 And three they had to have a table tennis table. 1:22:47.800 --> 1:22:49.920 Are you a good pink plank player? You know what 1:22:50.080 --> 1:22:52.200 I picked up about yesterday for the first time in 1:22:52.240 --> 1:22:55.080 about three years and I was useless, so I can't say, 1:22:55.160 --> 1:22:57.360 but I had the skills in those wis do you 1:22:57.439 --> 1:23:00.160 do you know that the big thing in Russian now 1:23:00.280 --> 1:23:03.000 and it spread around the world, is betting on people 1:23:03.080 --> 1:23:05.800 playing table tennis table you see, I called it table 1:23:05.800 --> 1:23:09.360 tennis rather than pin point. But as I said, I 1:23:09.400 --> 1:23:12.559 couldn't believe this. These are not star players. But there's 1:23:12.560 --> 1:23:14.800 a whole thing. You watch it on YouTube. Your bet 1:23:15.040 --> 1:23:19.599 it's crazy. So anyway you want a table tennis that, honestly, literally, 1:23:19.640 --> 1:23:22.519 those are the three things U would I take a 1:23:22.600 --> 1:23:28.880 band look with U? I always said. With the first 1:23:28.960 --> 1:23:34.160 three Dave Matthews albums I did, we recorded them. We 1:23:34.160 --> 1:23:36.679 we went away to record them, you know, the first 1:23:36.720 --> 1:23:39.800 two in Bearsville in upstate New York and the third 1:23:39.840 --> 1:23:44.280 one at the plant in in Sorcelita. Now this was 1:23:44.320 --> 1:23:46.840 great because we we went there for a specific time 1:23:46.880 --> 1:23:50.800 to make the album and we and it was great. 1:23:50.840 --> 1:23:55.040 Now for the fourth album, they wanted me back, They said, Steve, 1:23:55.080 --> 1:23:57.200 we want to do this album. We built our own 1:23:57.240 --> 1:24:01.759 studio in Charlottesville. I said, okay, but let me warn 1:24:01.800 --> 1:24:06.520 you from my experience, it will it will go from 1:24:06.560 --> 1:24:11.760 making an album to going to work. Big difference when 1:24:11.800 --> 1:24:14.240 you're making an album because you're away from your home, 1:24:14.640 --> 1:24:18.160 you're somewhere else and you're making an album. If you're 1:24:18.200 --> 1:24:20.760 living in your home and you have a studio in 1:24:20.800 --> 1:24:23.320 your hometown, you are not making an album. You are 1:24:23.400 --> 1:24:27.479 going to work. And of course when you're going to work, 1:24:28.880 --> 1:24:31.400 you can start complaining about it. And all of a sudden, 1:24:31.800 --> 1:24:34.200 the band members started, you know, there was it was 1:24:34.280 --> 1:24:36.800 going on longer, and I warned them, this album will 1:24:36.840 --> 1:24:39.800 take longer because you are in your hometown. You have 1:24:39.960 --> 1:24:43.360 other things going on in your life. And and of 1:24:43.400 --> 1:24:48.799 course I you know, I got fired. My rough mixes 1:24:48.840 --> 1:24:52.800 went on to Napster. At the height of Napster, it's 1:24:52.800 --> 1:24:55.800 still the most downloaded bootleg album in history, called the 1:24:55.840 --> 1:24:58.479 Lily White Sessions. You know, I always say I got 1:24:58.560 --> 1:25:02.160 heartfully aware of this from I downloaded these, the fact 1:25:02.200 --> 1:25:07.920 that they ultimately went to uh, Greg Glenn Ballard. Do 1:25:08.000 --> 1:25:11.120 you give a ship that your stuff, you know, wasn't 1:25:11.160 --> 1:25:13.080 releasing that time? You say here that to business. No, 1:25:13.320 --> 1:25:15.760 I got all the kudos and none of the cash. 1:25:15.840 --> 1:25:17.840 And at the end of the day, you know, when 1:25:17.880 --> 1:25:21.800 I die, I'm a legend in that world. And you know, 1:25:21.840 --> 1:25:24.479 I know that's that sounds very arrogant, doesn't it. But 1:25:24.760 --> 1:25:27.599 you know I got that band. You know, Glenn Ballard 1:25:27.680 --> 1:25:31.320 just wanted to make pop record and that's fine, you know, 1:25:31.840 --> 1:25:37.680 but um but I'm glad that that my album has 1:25:37.720 --> 1:25:42.160 been validated. That that that because because I did a lot, 1:25:42.720 --> 1:25:45.880 you know, with Dave Matthews band. They would I would 1:25:45.920 --> 1:25:48.360 allow them just to play and I would do everything else. 1:25:48.439 --> 1:25:51.640 I would edit, I would make them, you know, I 1:25:52.520 --> 1:25:56.760 you know, but that's look, I I did very well 1:25:56.800 --> 1:26:02.360 from them, and you know, but I don't feel that 1:26:02.479 --> 1:26:05.880 connection with them like I do with you know, with 1:26:05.960 --> 1:26:08.000 you two. You know, I got you know when when 1:26:08.040 --> 1:26:10.920 when when I meet them, it's hugs and like hey 1:26:10.960 --> 1:26:13.080 hey hey, you know, with with them, it's it's not 1:26:13.400 --> 1:26:19.280 such a lovely inning. But that's life. Okay. Let's talk 1:26:19.320 --> 1:26:23.880 about the money. Traditionally, a producer gets a fee and 1:26:23.920 --> 1:26:27.559 hopefully you get royalties from record one. You gotta earn 1:26:27.640 --> 1:26:30.240 back whatever you've been paid. How has it worked out 1:26:30.280 --> 1:26:32.960 for you financially? Have you gotten the money you deserve? 1:26:33.000 --> 1:26:35.439 Are you stay you're still fighting for their money? Well, 1:26:35.560 --> 1:26:39.759 you get a fee, you get an advance against a royalty, 1:26:40.960 --> 1:26:43.240 meaning that yeah, you get paid from record one if 1:26:43.240 --> 1:26:45.639 you're very if you if you have that in your contract, 1:26:45.640 --> 1:26:48.320 whereas sometimes the artists don't get paid from record one 1:26:48.360 --> 1:26:50.920 because they have a big advance that they need to 1:26:51.120 --> 1:26:55.160 pay back, you know. But yeah, I mean I I 1:26:55.240 --> 1:26:59.800 had my my very early records. I didn't get very 1:26:59.880 --> 1:27:02.880 much because you sort of it's more about I want 1:27:02.880 --> 1:27:06.800 to do it rather than you know, you know, you 1:27:06.840 --> 1:27:08.920 have to give to get, you know, in that way. 1:27:08.960 --> 1:27:12.320 But but also a lot of those um, those early 1:27:12.720 --> 1:27:16.719 certainly those early virgin contracts, I don't know. I think 1:27:16.960 --> 1:27:21.959 they were very artists unfriendly because you know, Andy Partridge 1:27:22.000 --> 1:27:25.000 one of the most talented guys I've ever worked with. 1:27:26.160 --> 1:27:28.800 Just you know, he's up there with with we need 1:27:28.960 --> 1:27:33.000 just so intricate, such fantastic. You know, he hasn't got 1:27:33.080 --> 1:27:36.040 what he's deserved, you know. And that sort of rubbed 1:27:36.080 --> 1:27:39.960 off on my money as well from that, so you know, 1:27:40.080 --> 1:27:42.880 it's but no, I've I've made a great living. I don't. 1:27:43.000 --> 1:27:45.760 For me, it's not about money. It's about what you 1:27:45.840 --> 1:27:48.160 leave behind them. And you can only spend so much 1:27:48.880 --> 1:27:50.960 and what do you what do you do? Did you 1:27:50.960 --> 1:27:52.600 blow your money or you have it, what do you 1:27:52.640 --> 1:27:56.120 do with the money? Oh? Look, for some reason, my 1:27:56.479 --> 1:28:01.040 apple watch just said he didn't understand what you said. Yes, 1:28:01.080 --> 1:28:05.000 so they really are listening in everywhere, Bob oh yeah, 1:28:04.720 --> 1:28:08.479 oh god? So, um did I blow my mind? I 1:28:08.520 --> 1:28:12.360 don't think so. I've never had that, even in in 1:28:12.400 --> 1:28:16.320 the sorts of crazier days. I wasn't like one of 1:28:16.360 --> 1:28:19.080 those people who bought a Rolls Royce and because I 1:28:19.120 --> 1:28:21.519 never moved to l a and for me, it was 1:28:21.560 --> 1:28:25.599 like I always worked. It was always about the work 1:28:25.640 --> 1:28:29.760 and the art, you know. And I was just not 1:28:29.960 --> 1:28:32.080 stupid enough to think that if I earn a million 1:28:32.120 --> 1:28:34.160 bucks this year, I need to live a million dollar 1:28:34.200 --> 1:28:37.640 a year lifestyle because I probably won't be earning a 1:28:37.680 --> 1:28:41.559 million dollars every year, you know. So you know, it's 1:28:41.600 --> 1:28:44.880 like some some sports stars still don't get that they 1:28:44.920 --> 1:28:47.120 think they're going to be playing basketball at the age 1:28:47.120 --> 1:28:51.160 of sixty five. You know, No, certainly in sports, you know, 1:28:51.439 --> 1:28:53.600 very in sports, it's very, very bad. I think it 1:28:53.680 --> 1:28:57.600 probably has changed now. I think they have financial advisors 1:28:57.680 --> 1:29:01.520 and it improved, but you know, it's still a problem. 1:29:01.560 --> 1:29:05.200 But let's go back. You talked about losing the wonder 1:29:05.200 --> 1:29:08.320 in the excitement just before you moved to Jakarta. Well, 1:29:08.360 --> 1:29:13.480 I was losing. Losing it's a little bit. Yeah, okay, 1:29:13.520 --> 1:29:18.280 but let's just apply that to the music itself. For you, 1:29:18.280 --> 1:29:22.360 you seem to indicate earlier that the music itself changed 1:29:22.640 --> 1:29:26.200 or maybe your reaction there too. Can you plat? I 1:29:26.200 --> 1:29:29.120 mean when I listen, the Beatles came along, music drove 1:29:29.160 --> 1:29:31.400 the culture, and then it faded at the end of 1:29:31.439 --> 1:29:34.839 the seventies, and the MTV came along and it happened again. 1:29:35.160 --> 1:29:37.639 And there's certainly music it's successful. People have no idea. 1:29:37.680 --> 1:29:40.360 You're talking about the BBC earlier, how we were addicted 1:29:40.400 --> 1:29:44.280 to the radio. So when did it change and why 1:29:44.320 --> 1:29:47.759 did it change? Oh day, was just the technology changed 1:29:48.160 --> 1:29:54.240 and and and it's enabled the technology enabled people to 1:29:54.320 --> 1:29:58.439 make records in their homes and and the sort of 1:29:58.760 --> 1:30:01.800 you know, the recording studio is my church, you know, 1:30:01.920 --> 1:30:04.960 that's that's my religion. You know, as I say, I 1:30:05.000 --> 1:30:06.760 have no rules, but I actually do have one rule. 1:30:06.960 --> 1:30:10.880 I will not let anyone eat in the control room. 1:30:10.960 --> 1:30:13.720 You know, I won't let anyone it because because I 1:30:14.439 --> 1:30:17.680 the idea of smelly you know, eating at your workstation 1:30:17.800 --> 1:30:20.240 is bad enough. And that's a very American thing, by 1:30:20.280 --> 1:30:23.840 the way, people eating at their desk. But if you know, 1:30:23.920 --> 1:30:25.599 if there's a rule I say to someone when they 1:30:25.600 --> 1:30:28.080 come in munching a fucking burger with onions, I said, 1:30:28.080 --> 1:30:30.439 excuse me, could you go out? Because it's like you 1:30:30.520 --> 1:30:34.639 walked into church eating a fucking hamburger. It's just not right. 1:30:34.960 --> 1:30:38.280 And for me, the studio is this wonderful place of 1:30:38.400 --> 1:30:42.839 mystery like the churches too religious people, So I don't 1:30:42.880 --> 1:30:45.000 that's my one rule. I tell people not to eat 1:30:45.000 --> 1:30:48.800 in the control room. Um. But but but the sense 1:30:48.840 --> 1:30:51.160 of wonder, I mean, you don't have the sense of 1:30:51.200 --> 1:30:54.720 wonder as much when your first thing that you do 1:30:54.880 --> 1:30:58.439 is to turn on a you know, is to is 1:30:58.479 --> 1:31:02.200 to have sequences and and no musicians, and everyone's looking 1:31:02.200 --> 1:31:05.519 at the screen, you know. I think that's when you know. 1:31:05.560 --> 1:31:08.160 I've always used my ears, you know, my ears have 1:31:08.280 --> 1:31:13.839 been my thing, not my eyes. And now I think, um, 1:31:13.880 --> 1:31:17.679 a lot of people look to see what's wrong rather 1:31:17.760 --> 1:31:21.880 than listen to see what's wrong, you know. And I uh, 1:31:22.920 --> 1:31:25.880 but also given the way record everything has to be 1:31:25.960 --> 1:31:28.760 so christine and perfect because it's easy for it to 1:31:28.800 --> 1:31:32.200 be christine and perfect, whereas back in the day, our 1:31:32.240 --> 1:31:37.720 favorite records were all this wonderful sort of connection of smudginess, 1:31:38.200 --> 1:31:40.760 that that that that you just listened to and was 1:31:41.439 --> 1:31:45.080 we're just amazed by and every time you heard it, 1:31:45.160 --> 1:31:48.439 you heard something new and some you know, and it 1:31:48.479 --> 1:31:52.679 was mysterious. Maybe kids now find music mysterious, but I 1:31:52.720 --> 1:31:56.439 don't know whether they do. You know, you know, I 1:31:56.479 --> 1:32:00.439 don't think anything with any real profile is mysterious. Now 1:32:00.479 --> 1:32:05.680 today the biggest genre is hip hop, and there's still pop. 1:32:05.720 --> 1:32:07.880 Are you a fan of those records who died in 1:32:07.920 --> 1:32:11.080 the wall? Rocker? Oh? I'm I was never really a rocker. 1:32:11.680 --> 1:32:14.559 I've no, I never really. I don't think I've ever 1:32:14.600 --> 1:32:17.320 done power chords on a record in my life. I 1:32:17.360 --> 1:32:21.320 don't like power chords. It's the most uncreative way of 1:32:21.400 --> 1:32:25.240 making power. I've always tried to do other cover of dogs, 1:32:25.240 --> 1:32:28.719 working on UM. I've always tried to look for other 1:32:28.760 --> 1:32:34.559 ways to get the right sounds. So you know, I've 1:32:34.800 --> 1:32:38.400 I've always turned down those artists. You know, if we 1:32:38.439 --> 1:32:40.519 had time, I would tell you my Guns and Roses story. 1:32:41.080 --> 1:32:44.360 Are you gonna tell it? Did you brite it up? Oh? Okay, 1:32:44.439 --> 1:32:48.599 And I'll tell you why I'm telling you this story. Okay, okay, Well, 1:32:49.080 --> 1:32:51.479 you know guns and roses, they are rocked royalty to 1:32:51.600 --> 1:32:56.200 Americans especially, and to many many people. So when I 1:32:56.280 --> 1:33:00.880 got the phone call that Axl wanted to meet me 1:33:01.760 --> 1:33:05.439 for Chinese democracy, and this was only a couple of 1:33:05.479 --> 1:33:09.479 years into it, you know, so it wasn't like this, 1:33:09.720 --> 1:33:12.799 you know, no one really knew that the red flags. 1:33:13.800 --> 1:33:18.640 But anyway, so they flew me to l A, you know, 1:33:19.320 --> 1:33:23.479 to meet to meet me, and and and we went 1:33:23.800 --> 1:33:29.040 to dinner, uh that one mccassie Japanese restaurant just over 1:33:29.080 --> 1:33:32.200 the hill of the Fame. Yeah, anyway, absolutely, you know, 1:33:33.080 --> 1:33:35.000 I've forgot the name. So and you know, we get 1:33:35.040 --> 1:33:37.840 on great, you know, me Axel and his manager of 1:33:37.920 --> 1:33:43.680 the time. I can't dug someone another's gold team. So 1:33:43.680 --> 1:33:46.160 we're chatting and we're great, great, we got on. Well, 1:33:46.280 --> 1:33:48.200 we and he says, look, I've got the studio book 1:33:48.240 --> 1:33:49.720 for the next six months. Do you want to come 1:33:49.760 --> 1:33:52.360 to the studio? I said, yeah, great, So we went 1:33:52.400 --> 1:33:55.320 to the studio and we're in there and and he said, 1:33:55.320 --> 1:33:57.400 I'll play a few tracks. So he played me a 1:33:57.439 --> 1:34:01.519 few few tracks and and actually I thought, oh, I 1:34:01.600 --> 1:34:04.000 understand why he might want me on this album, I think, 1:34:04.320 --> 1:34:06.840 And I started to get excited. I said, but but 1:34:07.000 --> 1:34:09.120 all that they were just backing tracks, none of them 1:34:09.120 --> 1:34:11.320 had any vocals on. I said, do you have anything 1:34:11.320 --> 1:34:15.680 with vocals, because yeah, I have one song. So he 1:34:15.800 --> 1:34:18.840 played this one song with singing, and I suddenly went, 1:34:18.880 --> 1:34:24.719 oh shit, I've just realized I literally could never press 1:34:24.840 --> 1:34:28.559 the talk back and say that sounds really good, because 1:34:28.600 --> 1:34:34.840 for me, it would always sound better without singing, because no, no, 1:34:34.960 --> 1:34:37.559 and I and I and I'm and I'm honest about 1:34:37.600 --> 1:34:40.080 this and I and I and and my heart sunk 1:34:40.160 --> 1:34:46.200 because you know, I've forgotten that that, you know, for 1:34:46.200 --> 1:34:48.000 for some people, as I say, they loved the sound 1:34:48.000 --> 1:34:50.439 of his voice. For me, I didn't, And I maybe 1:34:50.439 --> 1:34:52.400 should have said that before I went to the meeting, 1:34:52.439 --> 1:34:56.280 But anyway, whatever, I just had this sinking feeling in 1:34:56.360 --> 1:34:59.639 my heart, but I didn't say anything. We finished the evening, 1:34:59.640 --> 1:35:02.479 I went back to the to the hotel. Next morning, 1:35:02.560 --> 1:35:06.479 Doug called me, Steve, you're in Axel things. You're fucking great, 1:35:06.880 --> 1:35:10.439 and well, actually, Doug, I I don't think I'm the 1:35:10.520 --> 1:35:15.679 right man for your album, and he goes, oh, really, blah, 1:35:15.720 --> 1:35:18.040 blah blah blah art. But you know you can't force 1:35:18.120 --> 1:35:22.640 someone to have sex with k so um so we 1:35:22.840 --> 1:35:24.640 I didn't go, and that would be the story. I 1:35:24.640 --> 1:35:27.240 would never have told this to you and your millions 1:35:27.240 --> 1:35:31.719 of adoring listeners, except the next issue of Rolling Stone 1:35:31.800 --> 1:35:35.920 comes out and it's axl Rose turns down Steve lily 1:35:36.000 --> 1:35:40.280 White and I got you. You should have just said nothing. 1:35:40.960 --> 1:35:44.040 You know, you know, And so that's why I tell 1:35:44.120 --> 1:35:47.280 the story, because you know, if if I hadn't, if 1:35:47.320 --> 1:35:50.960 he hadn't said that, and they can set the record straight. Okay, 1:35:51.320 --> 1:35:54.880 so you're obviously working. Are you working all day or 1:35:54.920 --> 1:35:57.280 is there anything else that fills the rest of the day, 1:35:57.320 --> 1:36:03.400 Your reader, your TV streamer. I'm a huge football soccer fan, 1:36:03.840 --> 1:36:07.600 you know, I mean that's my thing. I well, Indonesia 1:36:07.720 --> 1:36:11.559 right now, Jakarta is is in what they call semi lockdown. 1:36:13.280 --> 1:36:15.479 I can go to my office at KFC, but I 1:36:15.520 --> 1:36:18.120 can also do a lot of work from home, you know, 1:36:18.160 --> 1:36:21.200 which everyone's a lot of people have realized they've realized 1:36:21.240 --> 1:36:24.760 that they don't have to go. But you know, I 1:36:24.800 --> 1:36:27.200 am a people person, so I do like to be 1:36:27.360 --> 1:36:31.720 with people. Um I restaurants here are open til eight 1:36:31.720 --> 1:36:35.600 o'clock in the evening at thirty capacity. But you know, 1:36:35.640 --> 1:36:38.559 I take a lot of I have a test every week, 1:36:39.439 --> 1:36:43.320 COVID test. I wash my hands, you know, I know 1:36:43.479 --> 1:36:46.120 lots of it. You know. It's the cases are starting 1:36:46.120 --> 1:36:49.320 to slowly, slowly built here because it's always you know, 1:36:49.320 --> 1:36:53.880 it's always centigrade thirty thirty two degrees. So I don't 1:36:53.920 --> 1:36:56.400 think you've double that. They have thirty two. So that's 1:36:56.760 --> 1:37:00.400 basically ninety six degrees. Yes, something is in ninety six Yeah, 1:37:00.600 --> 1:37:03.240 during the day at about twenty five at night. Um, 1:37:03.400 --> 1:37:07.599 so it's it's it's lovely and it's a little polluted, 1:37:07.680 --> 1:37:12.160 although less polluted now because of because there's less industry, 1:37:12.200 --> 1:37:15.800 you know, there's less going on, but less cars on 1:37:15.840 --> 1:37:19.640 the street. But I mean, I think I have to 1:37:19.920 --> 1:37:24.040 after it's right now, it's for you, it's what seven pm, 1:37:24.160 --> 1:37:28.599 right exactly seven pm? It's ten am for me, so 1:37:28.880 --> 1:37:34.000 I will yeah, I don't know yet, but it's it's 1:37:34.040 --> 1:37:37.360 a you know, okay, what do you what do you 1:37:37.400 --> 1:37:41.240 think about what's going on in Britain with Brexit, collvid, etcetera. 1:37:41.320 --> 1:37:43.439 And now that you live in Dakarda, well the whole 1:37:43.680 --> 1:37:48.000 I mean, it's just so sad that, you know, Brexit 1:37:48.160 --> 1:37:51.439 was a problem that we didn't even know we had. 1:37:52.360 --> 1:37:55.240 You know, it was a problem. You know, David Cameron 1:37:55.680 --> 1:37:57.720 was actually not the worst Prime minister we had, but 1:37:57.800 --> 1:38:00.439 he did the worst thing ever to the British people. 1:38:00.960 --> 1:38:03.160 If you give if you only have a two horse 1:38:03.280 --> 1:38:06.720 race and you give them a choice this or this. 1:38:07.280 --> 1:38:09.960 I mean you look at American politics, Actually what happens 1:38:10.040 --> 1:38:15.840 is it normally splits very close to whatever, whether it's 1:38:15.880 --> 1:38:20.559 like the devil or gods. You know, it's um So, 1:38:21.120 --> 1:38:25.200 you know, no one really hated it wasn't a big deal. No, 1:38:25.200 --> 1:38:28.559 no one hated Europe. But you know Brexit comes about 1:38:28.600 --> 1:38:31.559 and all that, the lies being told about. You know, 1:38:31.640 --> 1:38:34.240 it's got to be done. We need our own sovereignty. 1:38:34.680 --> 1:38:38.600 It's bullshit, you know. All I all I know is 1:38:38.640 --> 1:38:41.920 that if you're in a storm on the ocean, would 1:38:41.960 --> 1:38:44.720 you rather be in a little rowing boat or would 1:38:44.760 --> 1:38:47.639 you rather be in the Queen Mary? You know, And 1:38:47.680 --> 1:38:49.920 that's pretty much where Britain is now. We're a little 1:38:50.000 --> 1:38:52.559 rowing boat. Now. Everyone goes, oh, yeah, but we've got 1:38:52.560 --> 1:38:55.680 far more vaccines at the moment. Yes, that's true, but 1:38:56.200 --> 1:38:59.680 you know, Um, it's because we're you know, you look 1:38:59.720 --> 1:39:03.680 at the huntries that have vaccinated the highest population are 1:39:03.680 --> 1:39:05.719 the ones with the you know, I mean Israel doesn't 1:39:05.760 --> 1:39:10.640 have a large population really, you know. So it's um. 1:39:10.720 --> 1:39:13.479 But yeah, I'm I'm very proud to be British, but 1:39:13.600 --> 1:39:16.599 I am a European as well, you know. Now I'm 1:39:16.640 --> 1:39:20.880 paying Okay, prior to COVID, how much did you get 1:39:20.880 --> 1:39:23.920 out of Karna? And where did you go? Oh? Well, Bali, 1:39:24.000 --> 1:39:27.519 of course is part of Indonesia, but there's that's only 1:39:27.560 --> 1:39:31.240 one of thousands of islands, and they're these fantastic places 1:39:31.280 --> 1:39:34.559 to visit, you know, which are sort of weakendable for me. 1:39:35.200 --> 1:39:40.439 So um. But also you know, I like, you know, 1:39:40.520 --> 1:39:44.439 I live to eat. You know, I don't eat to live. 1:39:44.520 --> 1:39:47.000 I live to eat. So for me, one thing that 1:39:47.040 --> 1:39:50.040 my lifestyle has enabled me is the ability to eat 1:39:50.240 --> 1:39:53.840 at probably the most expensive restaurant in the world. You know, 1:39:54.000 --> 1:39:58.600 how often, Bob, can you afford what is considered the 1:39:58.680 --> 1:40:01.639 best in the world of everything? I'll never be able 1:40:01.680 --> 1:40:04.240 to afford the best car in the world, now that's 1:40:04.240 --> 1:40:06.559 what I say. I use a much baser thing. I 1:40:06.600 --> 1:40:09.759 talk about chocolate chip cookies. If I'm meeting chocolate chip cookies. 1:40:09.800 --> 1:40:11.519 Why I take the ones off the shelf. I can 1:40:11.560 --> 1:40:15.320 get the best chocolate chip cookie for fire under ten dollars. 1:40:15.360 --> 1:40:17.960 I can live like a king. Well, that's true, you know. 1:40:18.080 --> 1:40:20.840 And and one of the great things about food as 1:40:20.880 --> 1:40:26.000 a general art form is there are no um there 1:40:26.040 --> 1:40:29.479 no one owns the copyright on anything. So you know, 1:40:29.600 --> 1:40:32.280 you can go to a little village in Colombia and 1:40:32.400 --> 1:40:34.799 eat something, and you can take it to your restaurants 1:40:34.800 --> 1:40:37.760 in Ohio and tweak it, and then someone can come 1:40:37.800 --> 1:40:40.320 to your restaurant in Ohio and then take it to 1:40:40.400 --> 1:40:42.760 a restaurant in l A and then tweet. You know, 1:40:42.920 --> 1:40:45.800 So you get this wonderful getting better and better because 1:40:45.800 --> 1:40:50.240 it's all different people working together. You know, there's no 1:40:50.439 --> 1:40:55.439 copyright on any food, so I I you know, even 1:40:55.479 --> 1:40:58.400 in Jakarta we get great food. Indonesian food is pretty good. 1:40:59.000 --> 1:41:01.000 But the thing I love at the moment is my 1:41:01.160 --> 1:41:04.719 air fryer. Are you familiar with? What are you cooking 1:41:04.720 --> 1:41:07.639 your air fer anything? It's great for heating up, it's 1:41:07.680 --> 1:41:11.639 great for chicken, it's great for oh god, chicken livers 1:41:11.640 --> 1:41:15.600 in there are delicious. Um. Are you familiar with so 1:41:15.720 --> 1:41:17.599 not only do you eat, you know how to cook 1:41:17.720 --> 1:41:20.120 well a little bit, A little bit, Okay, I don't 1:41:20.120 --> 1:41:22.439 really cook it off. Okay, one can cook with an 1:41:22.439 --> 1:41:25.679 air fried bob by yourself an air fryer. Okay. What's 1:41:25.760 --> 1:41:28.559 the best meal you've ever had? The best meal I've 1:41:28.840 --> 1:41:32.120 Oh god, I don't know. I mean, depends how hungry 1:41:32.160 --> 1:41:34.720 I am. But but have you eaten some of the 1:41:34.760 --> 1:41:38.400 great what is it normal? Have you eaten this ill bully? 1:41:38.720 --> 1:41:41.040 Is the is the best one? And I've been to 1:41:41.160 --> 1:41:46.960 a two mission. There's only three Michelin stars, right, And 1:41:47.040 --> 1:41:50.000 apparently someone told me the difference between a two Michelin 1:41:50.080 --> 1:41:53.200 Star restaurant and a three Michelin Star restaurant is only 1:41:53.280 --> 1:41:57.600 the service is the silver stood the actual quality of 1:41:57.600 --> 1:41:59.639 the food between the two and the three stars about 1:41:59.720 --> 1:42:02.919 the stay right. So I've been to a two Michelin 1:42:03.040 --> 1:42:07.840 Star in Singapore. Um, but you know, I'm always just 1:42:08.160 --> 1:42:10.720 you know, when I find something that I like. You know, 1:42:10.880 --> 1:42:13.880 the same with the chocolate chip cookies, I artias and 1:42:13.920 --> 1:42:17.720 all like. You know that the big thing in Indonesia 1:42:17.760 --> 1:42:19.080 at the moment, and I don't know about l A, 1:42:19.240 --> 1:42:23.040 is that is that people they sort of advertise on 1:42:23.080 --> 1:42:26.200 Instagram and stuff. You know, on this day we are 1:42:26.280 --> 1:42:30.160 doing a batch of this and if you wanted to 1:42:30.360 --> 1:42:33.000 order it, order it now and we'll deliver it to 1:42:33.040 --> 1:42:38.759 you on that day, you know. So you know my um. 1:42:38.800 --> 1:42:42.280 So there's one place that that does this clam chowder, 1:42:42.360 --> 1:42:44.320 but you know it's only every two or three weeks. 1:42:44.720 --> 1:42:47.840 So I always they have clam chowder in Jakarta. Yes, 1:42:48.920 --> 1:42:53.840 on sour dough. It's delicious. I loved a huge clam 1:42:53.920 --> 1:42:55.439 chowder fit And you don't have to give you three 1:42:55.640 --> 1:42:58.360 what's the clear? Okay? So what's your last meal? What 1:42:58.520 --> 1:43:03.479 kind of cuisine do you want? Oh? Oh? Japanese, followed 1:43:03.520 --> 1:43:08.000 by Italian. They are followed by Indian. I think those 1:43:08.000 --> 1:43:11.040 are my top three, I think, and then the Japanese. 1:43:11.040 --> 1:43:14.559 Would it be sushi, sushimi or would it be good dishes? 1:43:14.600 --> 1:43:17.000 So it would be sushi. I mean, you know, the 1:43:17.880 --> 1:43:21.320 greatest sushi in the world. I mean, you know those 1:43:21.360 --> 1:43:26.840 places in on Sunset which which are like which you know, 1:43:26.920 --> 1:43:29.160 not romantic at all, and you sit at the sushi 1:43:29.160 --> 1:43:31.439 bar and I love that you can spend a couple 1:43:31.479 --> 1:43:34.760 of hundred bucks in half an hour, you know, I 1:43:34.960 --> 1:43:38.040 just feed me for me, you know, I don't go 1:43:38.760 --> 1:43:41.559 This is the trouble with America is too much choice. 1:43:42.280 --> 1:43:45.680 If you have too much choice, you can hide. Mediocrity 1:43:45.960 --> 1:43:49.960 hides behind choice if you have Wow, that's a great statement. 1:43:49.960 --> 1:43:52.040 I've never heard that before. Well no, I've never said 1:43:52.040 --> 1:43:55.200 it before, but it does it well. This is my 1:43:55.400 --> 1:43:58.880 idea that that that if you have less choice, it 1:43:59.000 --> 1:44:04.200 has to be good. Otherwise you would you would um, 1:44:04.280 --> 1:44:06.599 you would, you would go out of business. So if 1:44:06.640 --> 1:44:09.400 ever there's a restaurant that only serves one thing but 1:44:09.560 --> 1:44:12.639 it's busy, I would go there because I know if 1:44:12.640 --> 1:44:14.960 there's ever a business that only does one thing but 1:44:15.040 --> 1:44:18.200 it's a successful business, I know that it's it's great, 1:44:19.160 --> 1:44:23.080 you know, and Amakassie is pretty much that. You know, 1:44:23.240 --> 1:44:26.920 it's only what they find that day. And you know, 1:44:27.280 --> 1:44:30.400 I don't I don't tell someone how to cook my food. 1:44:31.120 --> 1:44:33.280 You know. It's like I don't tell someone how to 1:44:33.320 --> 1:44:35.960 cut my hair. I just don't go to that barber 1:44:36.120 --> 1:44:40.440 or I don't go to that restaurant. Again, great philosophy. 1:44:40.479 --> 1:44:42.639 You know, when when I talk about you the third parties, 1:44:42.680 --> 1:44:46.080 I say, Steve is completely opposite of what you think 1:44:46.120 --> 1:44:49.679 of a record producer, certainly Phil spector recently. Not someone 1:44:49.720 --> 1:44:53.880 who's introverted, lives the dark. Whatever. You're a guy who 1:44:53.880 --> 1:44:56.280 could be playing on the football team. As you say, 1:44:56.320 --> 1:44:59.280 you are a people person. Uh. You know, there's so 1:44:59.320 --> 1:45:01.280 many other sub next we could talk about, but I 1:45:01.320 --> 1:45:03.400 think we've come to the end of the feeling we've 1:45:03.439 --> 1:45:09.160 known for today's styes about if ever you need anything else, 1:45:09.240 --> 1:45:12.000 And look, it's been great. I loved it very good 1:45:12.080 --> 1:45:13.680 and I loved it too, and I know people love 1:45:13.760 --> 1:45:32.200 listening to it. Until next time this time, Okay,