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Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Barbed Left Sides podcast.

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Speaker 1: Like yesterday is the Record Producer explordinare Steve Uli Steve?

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Speaker 1: Hello there, Bob. Now you called me a record producer.

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Speaker 1: I always say that people over the age of sixty

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Speaker 1: know what a record is, people over the age of

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Speaker 1: forty called it a CD, so I was a CD producer,

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Speaker 1: and then people over the age of twenty only know

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Speaker 1: as streaming. So I would rather call myself a music producer.

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Speaker 1: I almost said that, but hey, shows my age. A

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Speaker 1: second thing. You are speaking to us from Jakarta, where

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Speaker 1: you now live. Let's start, especially for the ignorant Americans.

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Speaker 1: Where exactly is Jacarta? Where is Jacartia is? Jakarta is

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Speaker 1: the capital city of Indonesia. Indonesia is the fourth largest

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Speaker 1: country on the planet, with about fourth largest by population

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Speaker 1: after China, America and India. It's about eight Muslim uh

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Speaker 1: seven or eight percent Christian. The rest are sort of

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Speaker 1: scattered between Hindus and Buddhists, and they've got a couple

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Speaker 1: of atheists, of which I am one of them. But

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Speaker 1: the great thing about it is that that everyone lives

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Speaker 1: in perfect harmony together, you know, and that's great because

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Speaker 1: there's not many places on the planet where Christians and

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Speaker 1: Muslims live in um, you know, in in UH next

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Speaker 1: door to each other, and they're fine with it. So

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Speaker 1: how did you end up in Jakara? I was living

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Speaker 1: not very far from you, Bob, really in just off

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Speaker 1: sunset in Hollywood, and and I was thinking, there's something

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Speaker 1: about my life here that I don't know. It was.

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Speaker 1: I wanted some my my My thing has always been

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Speaker 1: my enthusiasm for life. And I was I was living

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Speaker 1: in l A and I you know, I just got

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Speaker 1: a Latin Grammy for for my album with j one Is,

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Speaker 1: and you know, things were okay, but I felt I

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Speaker 1: wanted a new, um, a new challenge in life. So

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Speaker 1: I was invited to go to Singapore to give a

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Speaker 1: speech at UH Music Matters, which of course you're familiar with.

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Speaker 1: And I was so excited. I thought, Southeast Asia, this

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Speaker 1: is going to be fair. The moment I got to Singapore,

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Speaker 1: it was like, oh my god, this is like going

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Speaker 1: to Disneyland. I mean, it was very nice and it

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Speaker 1: was very clean, but where is the Where's the excitement

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Speaker 1: of the of the East, you know? Um? Although I

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Speaker 1: I got some great friends in Singapore, and I love

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Speaker 1: it now actually, but I I then sort of went

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Speaker 1: to China and went to to to career and and

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Speaker 1: and these places. None of them really made me feel great.

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Speaker 1: And then a friend of mine said there's a band

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Speaker 1: in Indonesia want an English record producer, and that I

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Speaker 1: googled them. They were huge over here, and I came

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Speaker 1: out and did some songs and and I just fell

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Speaker 1: in love with the place. It's a it's got its

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Speaker 1: own I mean, I mean for me, I I've learned

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Speaker 1: so much about a whole different musical culture and that's

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Speaker 1: really um And and he gave me a new lease

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Speaker 1: of life. To be honest, I have a great lifestyle here.

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Speaker 1: I now. I came over here as a music producer

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Speaker 1: and I now worked for KFC. Okay, before we get there.

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Speaker 1: Deep the last time we spoke, you were playing the

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Speaker 1: field and never anticipated getting married again, but reasonly you

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Speaker 1: did get married. Tell me that story. Oh, it's so

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Speaker 1: funny you you and I. I don't I don't mean

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Speaker 1: to be disrespectful to any culture, and I believe it,

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Speaker 1: you know. And as I say, I am not a

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Speaker 1: believer in and afterlife or or any you know, I

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Speaker 1: believe in a higher power than me. But my higher

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Speaker 1: power than me is basically a group of us. You know.

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Speaker 1: I don't think there's anything outside, and that's quite a

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Speaker 1: prevalent view in the West, but over here it's not.

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Speaker 1: And and my and my girlfriend Um and her parents

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Speaker 1: felt that it was sort of wrong that we were

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Speaker 1: living together, and so so I said, okay, well we'll

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Speaker 1: do a you know, I will convert, not that convert,

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Speaker 1: because I'm not anything. So it doesn't matter if i'm either,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'll do what anyone says if it makes

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Speaker 1: them happy. So I did. I did acquire a Muslim name.

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Speaker 1: And apparently when you become a Muslim or acquire a

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Speaker 1: Muslim name, you can choose any name you want. So

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Speaker 1: guess what I chose, Bob, I am now in Muslim world.

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Speaker 1: My name is Mohammed Ali. That is the fantastic denly

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Speaker 1: quite a sense of humor there. Okay, how did you

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Speaker 1: meet this woman who's now your wife? She is Um,

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Speaker 1: just just mutual friends and and we got on grades

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Speaker 1: and she's far too young for me, and it's perfectly

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Speaker 1: acceptable over here, you know. But but but I've realized, Bob,

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Speaker 1: the difference between. You know, it's it's not age gap

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Speaker 1: that that that makes problems. It's the fact that one

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Speaker 1: of us is male and one of us is female.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's that's the main difference. It's

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Speaker 1: nothing to do with how old you are, is to

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Speaker 1: do with one is male and mine is female. But

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Speaker 1: we got on great, We've got a great life. Her

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Speaker 1: family are lovely and yeah, and at the moment, COVID

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Speaker 1: is sort of bubbling here. But but but you know,

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Speaker 1: as I say, most of them are Muslims. If if

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Speaker 1: anyone dies of COVID, they shrug their shoulders and say

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Speaker 1: it's God's will and they bury people here within twenty

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Speaker 1: four hours, which is the Muslim tradition. So there's not

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Speaker 1: really any autopsies to see what they died of as well.

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Speaker 1: So it's it's you know, but but but the good

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Speaker 1: news is that people in Asia have been wearing masks

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Speaker 1: for a long time, you know, so so that there

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Speaker 1: is no political divide over anything like that. You know,

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Speaker 1: everyone deals with with mask wearing, everyone deals with you know,

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Speaker 1: they're all the same. So I wouldn't think of leaving

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Speaker 1: the house, and no one thinks of leaving their house

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Speaker 1: without wearing a mask, and we all wash our hands,

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Speaker 1: and we all get temperature tested if we go anywhere

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Speaker 1: we go, you know, everywhere there's a guy with a

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Speaker 1: little temperature thing to to take your temperature. About probably

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Speaker 1: three or four times a day. I get my temperature done.

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Speaker 1: I get tested once a week for my job. U.

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Speaker 1: So you know, it's all good. Okay. To what degree

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Speaker 1: is there an expact community there? I well, when I

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Speaker 1: came here six years ago, there was a fairly big

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Speaker 1: expact community. It's shrunk a bit. And and to be honest,

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Speaker 1: the oil business was huge even before I came, so

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Speaker 1: I sort of got the end of that at But

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Speaker 1: there isn't so much of an expact community. And that

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Speaker 1: doesn't bother me because I'm not really I don't need

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Speaker 1: to be with ex pats, you know. I when I

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Speaker 1: enter a culture, I love to to dive right in,

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Speaker 1: you know. So I've learned the language to a certain extent,

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Speaker 1: and I love the food. I love the music, you know,

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Speaker 1: because the music is my job. I put these CDs

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Speaker 1: into into KFC and I sell you know, up to

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Speaker 1: a million CDs every month, So I have to know

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Speaker 1: what the what what the businesses in Indonesia, So so

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Speaker 1: you know, there's not I have some expact friends obviously,

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Speaker 1: but you know, because I don't drink alcohol, so I'm

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Speaker 1: not one of those people who goes to the bar

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Speaker 1: and get drunk. And you know, and and and the

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Speaker 1: typical expact that you hear about in Bali and places

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Speaker 1: like that. Okay, how long has it been, if always

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Speaker 1: that you don't drink to ety three years and nine months,

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Speaker 1: I think, And what was your motivation to start one

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Speaker 1: day at a time. And by doing it one day

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Speaker 1: at a time, I've realized I couldn't get to twenty

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Speaker 1: three years, so you know, it was relatively easy. And

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Speaker 1: you know, I work, I produced the Rolling Stones, Bob.

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Speaker 1: You know, I and I lived, and many people didn't live.

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Speaker 1: So I've you know, I understand the pitfalls and I

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Speaker 1: I didn't get to a place where my life collapsed

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Speaker 1: or anything, but I got to a place where I

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Speaker 1: thought I crossed an invisible line, which was basically, it'll

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Speaker 1: probably get me eventually. And when you come to that

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Speaker 1: realization that your lifestyle will will will probably get you eventually,

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Speaker 1: it sort of takes all the fun out of it.

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Speaker 1: So I dealt with it in the way that so

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Speaker 1: many people in our business deal with it, and I

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Speaker 1: and I love it. You know, my life is a

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Speaker 1: lot more open now, you know. Um, you think you're

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Speaker 1: free when you're living that sort of lifestyle, but actually

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Speaker 1: you're much freer when you're not. Your life becomes a

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Speaker 1: lot wider and a lot bigger. You're preaching to the converted.

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Speaker 1: But in this particular case, the KFC thing is still

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Speaker 1: going on. Explain from my audience the whole period. I

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Speaker 1: just threw in KFC that. Okay, let me start. The

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Speaker 1: KFC in Indonesia is a destination restaurant. It's um. It's

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Speaker 1: because there's no pork and beef is is not really

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Speaker 1: that that that prevalent here. Chicken rules, and chicken here

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Speaker 1: is not pumped full of full of chlorine. It's not

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Speaker 1: washed in chlorine. It's not pumped full of um steroids

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Speaker 1: and stuff to make it big. So they're really small,

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Speaker 1: they're really tasty, and chicken here is great and KFC

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Speaker 1: franchise has really become the thing here. People love KFC

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Speaker 1: and honestly, I I love it here. It's it's exactly

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Speaker 1: how you remember it as a kid, you know, when

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Speaker 1: you first heard it and it was great. But you

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Speaker 1: now go and have KFC and it's like you walk

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Speaker 1: in and it just smells stale of stale. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's not good. Whereas here we have you know, there's

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Speaker 1: coffee shops in the in a lot of the KFC s,

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Speaker 1: they're very clean. Our flagship restaurants have stages where there's music.

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Speaker 1: And basically I didn't start it but my um, but

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Speaker 1: my predecessor decided to start bundling c ds with chicken. Now,

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Speaker 1: this started to take off and when record stores closed,

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Speaker 1: it was the only place people could get their CDs.

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Speaker 1: So it's become a sort of tradition when you go

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Speaker 1: to KFC, people buy CDs. So it's a very prestigious

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Speaker 1: thing to have your CD for sale at KFC because

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Speaker 1: you know, I I say, pre COVID, I would my

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Speaker 1: My biggest month sale was one point one million in

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Speaker 1: a month post COVID. I'm at about five fifty, so

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Speaker 1: it's it's but it's improving again. And I have ten well,

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Speaker 1: I have eight c d s now at any one time,

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Speaker 1: and two DVDs because I felt that I can give

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Speaker 1: a you know, I do a DVD for kids and

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Speaker 1: a DVD for family, um and and you know it's

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Speaker 1: it's nothing to do with my taste. Producing was always

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Speaker 1: to do with my taste. That was how I became

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Speaker 1: a producer, because you know, it was all too I

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Speaker 1: would never do anything for money. I did it because

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Speaker 1: whether I liked it or not. But you know, now

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm getting older. I have other people who helped me,

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Speaker 1: but it's not my taste. I choose things for all

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Speaker 1: the family, you know. I I put a CD in

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Speaker 1: for the teenage girls because you know, they always love

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Speaker 1: these these these soppy you know, and it's great fun.

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Speaker 1: And I've got this, you know. And I'm enthusiastic about

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Speaker 1: my job, and being enthusiastic about what you do in

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Speaker 1: life may exit so much more exciting. And and you know,

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Speaker 1: I've I've I've always been lucky. I've never had a

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Speaker 1: job because the definition of a job is you can

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Speaker 1: complain about your job. That's one of the things about

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Speaker 1: having a job. What I've always had is a vocation. Now,

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Speaker 1: a vocation is great, but you're never allowed to complain

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Speaker 1: about it because you would not be as as enthusia

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Speaker 1: you would not be true to that that that young

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Speaker 1: seventeen year old boy who walked into a recording studio

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Speaker 1: full of wonder. I think the sense of wonder is

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Speaker 1: something that used to abound in the music business, and

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Speaker 1: that sense of wonder is something that now, you know,

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Speaker 1: you don't see that with the young artists. It that

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Speaker 1: there's the sense of innocence and wonder. You you know,

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Speaker 1: homogenization is a great thing, but maybe not for truly

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Speaker 1: great creative people. Okay, let's flow down for a minute.

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Speaker 1: You're so CD s a KFC. A lot of questions. First,

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Speaker 1: can you buy a CD at a place other than KFC,

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Speaker 1: not the CDs I sell. The CDs I sell. We

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Speaker 1: have a we have an exclusive deal with our artists

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Speaker 1: and they come in and we we asked them to

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Speaker 1: do certain not promotional things for for KFC, but we

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Speaker 1: asked them to to to do some store visits. Uh

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Speaker 1: and the you know, there's no branding involved. It's not

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Speaker 1: like they sell our CDs and they have to hold

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Speaker 1: KFC and say I love it. I mean, to be honest,

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Speaker 1: most of them do really love KFC, so they feel

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Speaker 1: they don't mind going to a store. But the idea

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Speaker 1: is go to the store, do a little meet and

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Speaker 1: greet with some fans speak to the staff. Get you know,

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Speaker 1: it's to keep the staff. You know, take a couple

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Speaker 1: of photos with the staff. So the staff two things

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Speaker 1: keeps them happy and it and it's um and it

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Speaker 1: makes themselves the seat, you know, it makes them want

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Speaker 1: to sell the CD more. And it's it's all around

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Speaker 1: the glimp thing. Okay, what is the company you work for?

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Speaker 1: What's the name of that? Well, my my company is

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Speaker 1: called jms R Jagonian Music and Sport Indonesia. But it

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Speaker 1: doesn't really matter. It's just a it's a shell, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's a it's a part of KFC Indonesia. But you know,

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Speaker 1: my my boss owns all the franchises of KFC UM

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Speaker 1: and KFC and and unlike other big worldwide corporations like

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Speaker 1: Disney have such you know, you cannot do certain things

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Speaker 1: worldwide with Disney. With KFC, they've been very good because

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Speaker 1: they've allowed my my boss and his team to to

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Speaker 1: to tweak the the KFC the product for the Indonesian market.

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Speaker 1: So most people eat KFC with rice. Um. They they

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Speaker 1: love spicy food here, oh my god. Everything you know,

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Speaker 1: they the chili is is so they do the spicy KFC,

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Speaker 1: so you know, and that's what I like. Uh, and

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Speaker 1: they're always doing you know. But I'm not here too

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Speaker 1: to promote KFC in general. But I would say, if

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Speaker 1: anyone does visit Indonesia, it's a trip to KFC is

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Speaker 1: it's not as outrageous as a trip you know, it's

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Speaker 1: not as weird as a trip to KFC in the West.

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Speaker 1: And in fact, just very quickly, a friend of mine

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Speaker 1: heard about this when I was in New York working

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Speaker 1: on the last U two album. He said to me, Steve,

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Speaker 1: do you think he was a journalist? He said, Can

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Speaker 1: I pitch your story to the New York Times? I said, yeah,

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Speaker 1: but I don't think they he said, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: they're dying to do this. So I was actually on

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Speaker 1: the front cover of the New York Times Arts section

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Speaker 1: at the weekend, holding a bucket of KFC and you know,

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Speaker 1: telling my story about what I do. Now KFC, big

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Speaker 1: worldwide corporate is called the Young Organization and believe it

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Speaker 1: or not, and you know, they have never been on

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Speaker 1: the front page of the New York Times in their life.

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Speaker 1: So all of a sudden they got like this, Q

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Speaker 1: dos that you know? Um, so so they are very

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Speaker 1: proud of of the Indonesian KFC on on the worldwide basis. Okay,

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Speaker 1: a few questions in terms of landscape of music, KFC

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Speaker 1: has what percentage of the overall market or how many competies?

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Speaker 1: Well pretty much ninety. Well that since KFC did it,

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Speaker 1: other chicken outlets have done it. Their California Chicken Company

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Speaker 1: and is one and there's one other one but there,

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Speaker 1: I mean, we have six hundreds at six hundred and

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Speaker 1: fifty outlets. They only have about two or three hundred,

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Speaker 1: and they they don't, you know, they're kept there. They're fried.

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Speaker 1: Chicken is like a level below ours, you know. So

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Speaker 1: it's it's it's more like American case. So we have Okay,

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Speaker 1: So what you're saying essentially is there are no record stories.

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Speaker 1: Everybody buys their music and a a chicken store, yes or

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Speaker 1: they yeah, it's I mean a lot of people what

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Speaker 1: YouTube and stuff. So my job is becoming harder and harder.

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Speaker 1: And what I do is, you know, I'm trying to

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Speaker 1: and to be honest, I'm selling them something that they

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Speaker 1: can get on YouTube for nothing, you know. So so

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Speaker 1: I'm forever trying to think of new ways to bundle

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Speaker 1: it all together. Like compilations of styles of music, and

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Speaker 1: you know, because playlist mentality is is happening more and more,

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Speaker 1: even if you don't subscribe to any streaming service. The

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Speaker 1: idea of the album is I once wrote to you, Bob,

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Speaker 1: and you ignored it. But I actually in the West Side,

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Speaker 1: I read it. I get replied everything because I know, no, no, don't.

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Speaker 1: He was slightly flippant, which is no, you always do.

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Speaker 1: You know, you're you're very good to me. But I

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Speaker 1: actually had this, this this idea that the only thing

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Speaker 1: that will save the album in the West is the

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Speaker 1: legalization of marijuana, because you know, you know, when you

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Speaker 1: were fourteen or fifteen and you had your first joint

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Speaker 1: and you listen to Dark Side of the Moon, there

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Speaker 1: was a whole new thing happening, all right, And I think, maybe, if, if,

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Speaker 1: that's the only possible thing that will save the album

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Speaker 1: is the legalization, But I don't think it probably will

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Speaker 1: because the technology has no need for albums, and technology

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Speaker 1: will always lead the art form. Okay, what is the

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Speaker 1: price of v CDs? You said they are They're priced

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Speaker 1: at a point where Indonesia, you know, people here are

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Speaker 1: very poor, so they're like five bucks each okay, and

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Speaker 1: to what But it doesn't. Doesn't everybody have a morbile phone.

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Speaker 1: That's why my job is getting more and more difficult.

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Speaker 1: But yes they do, but they have cars and they

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Speaker 1: and and well they do, but it's more the a

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Speaker 1: lot of people have have well, yes they have a

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Speaker 1: mobile phone. What you're talking about, Bob left sets is

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Speaker 1: a smartphone because a mobile phone will not play music.

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Speaker 1: A smartphone is the one that plays music. And yes,

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Speaker 1: a lot of people have smartphones. But but but the

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Speaker 1: problem is is the broadband. There's not much broadband and

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Speaker 1: there's no five G or uh. You know a lot

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Speaker 1: of the rural areas don't have very good reception. So

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Speaker 1: you know, it will all change in the future. And

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Speaker 1: Spotify numbers are going up here. But you know, I'm

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Speaker 1: I'm getting to the point where I mean, I'm I'm

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Speaker 1: enjoying my job, but it's not gonna last forever. So

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm you know, and okay, let's just assume it

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Speaker 1: ends somewhere in the next five years based on your

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Speaker 1: need for excitement. Will you then continue to work or

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Speaker 1: will you get into lifestyle sale under the sunset? Now,

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Speaker 1: i I've actually just invested in a house. I've just

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Speaker 1: bought a house in Bali, so I I shall, I

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Speaker 1: shall probably move to Balley. But you know, I'm also

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Speaker 1: writing a book and I do a sort of U

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Speaker 1: and I've written my own life story in a stand

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Speaker 1: up form and actually it's with music and I've you know,

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Speaker 1: it's two It's a two hour show with a with

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Speaker 1: a gap, with a break at at one hour, and

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Speaker 1: it it goes. You know, it's just a lot of

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Speaker 1: self effacing stories and I play music. I've got about

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Speaker 1: twenty segments of music where I paid little bits of songs.

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Speaker 1: I tell funny stories, I tell sad stories. Um. And

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Speaker 1: I had this all done. I did one show in Jakarta,

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Speaker 1: which was fantastic, and then I my plan was to

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Speaker 1: take it around locally Asia, Southeast Asia and then go

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Speaker 1: around the odd with it doing my show and because

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Speaker 1: a lot of people when they heard about it said

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Speaker 1: oh I come to see that, you know, and then

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Speaker 1: COVID hit So everything is. It was about a year

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Speaker 1: ago in February that I did my first show. Um,

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Speaker 1: and I've still got the script, you know, I've got

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Speaker 1: it all ready to go and it's okay, this beg

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Speaker 1: this begs a question. You've made your rep on the

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Speaker 1: other side of the glass, Yes, sir, So did you

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Speaker 1: always want to be a performer, your reluctant performer. Did

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Speaker 1: the light bulb just go off? No? I never wanted

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Speaker 1: to be a performer, and I never even wanted to

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Speaker 1: be a teacher, because I I always, um, I always

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Speaker 1: subscribed to the idea that those who can't teach, you know,

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Speaker 1: and and in fact, actually my kids school in New

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Speaker 1: York there, their teachers at the school had a band

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Speaker 1: and they actually called the name of the band those

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Speaker 1: who Can't, which is which is a great name for

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Speaker 1: a band, right, especially if you are all teachers. They

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Speaker 1: called it those who Came. But I've subsequently come to

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Speaker 1: the conclusion that that if people like me who actually

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Speaker 1: um who who who have been both old school and

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Speaker 1: modern recording techniques, you know, I have something I can

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Speaker 1: give back to young people. Uh, And so I I

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Speaker 1: quite And also my story is it's quite funny. I mean, look,

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Speaker 1: you know you went to see the Jeff Emmerick. You know,

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Speaker 1: it was very good, but it was all a little worthy.

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Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, he was he he was fantastic, but

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Speaker 1: you know, and and his work speaks for itself. But

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Speaker 1: but I'm you know, I'm one of those produced. There

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Speaker 1: are a lot of brilliant producers in the world. But

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Speaker 1: I'm a people person and I think, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm pretty good at speaking and and I enjoy

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Speaker 1: it and that's the sort of thing that gives me

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Speaker 1: more excitement at the moment. So okay, yeah, we'll have

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Speaker 1: to wait for covid M. Let's go back to the beginning.

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Speaker 1: What kind of circumstances did you grow up? In? White,

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Speaker 1: middle class um post war possibly the greatest example of

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Speaker 1: socialized life the planet has ever seen. Um, you know,

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Speaker 1: I mean everything. You know, it was socialism in the

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Speaker 1: greatest way. It was. The BBC is an institution that

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Speaker 1: I will defend forever because it has it has been

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Speaker 1: impartial through various different governments. Musically, it was completely um.

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Speaker 1: You could not bribe anyone at the BBC to get

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Speaker 1: your song on the radio, you know. So we got

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Speaker 1: the best of what America had to offer. You know,

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Speaker 1: I we got the best American music. Now it sounds

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Speaker 1: like I'm being snobby. How do you do find the best?

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Speaker 1: I never ever heard Kansas, you know, I had funny Okay,

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Speaker 1: let's go back to what did your parents do for

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Speaker 1: a living? Oh, my god, My my dad was an accountant.

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Speaker 1: My mom was a housewife. You know how many how

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Speaker 1: many kids in the film? Oh, there's three of us.

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Speaker 1: I'm the eldest. Never had any chance. I never finished

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Speaker 1: high school, let alone go to college. I I managed

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Speaker 1: to get a job in a recording studio at the

401
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Speaker 1: age of seventeen as a tea boy and U and

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Speaker 1: even then I wasn't there was no you know, I

403
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Speaker 1: was just one of those people that punk rock was

404
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Speaker 1: my was my entry point, really, you know, because it's

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Speaker 1: you know, to be a producer. It's like a catch

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Speaker 1: twenty two situation. You know, you need the work to

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Speaker 1: get the hit. But the only way you get the

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Speaker 1: hit if you have the work. So you know what

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Speaker 1: comes for the hit or the work, you know. And

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Speaker 1: and I was lucky that there was this sort of

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Speaker 1: wave called punk rock. And we don't get waves of music,

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Speaker 1: you know, as you've always said, it doesn't mean so

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Speaker 1: much anymore. And when it doesn't mean so much, you

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Speaker 1: don't get waves. Um. But punk rock was a wave

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Speaker 1: in the UK and on the eastern West coast of America.

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Speaker 1: It was only when Green Day came many years later,

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Speaker 1: that that punk thing actually traversed to Middle America. Funnily enough,

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Speaker 1: the sex pistols in the clash never meant anything in

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Speaker 1: Middle America. Um, but I wrote this wave. And I

420
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Speaker 1: always used to say, what better than having bands who

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Speaker 1: couldn't play than having a producer who couldn't produce? And

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Speaker 1: so that was my that was my thing. And of

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Speaker 1: course I got a hit record. And once I had

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Speaker 1: a hit record, um in a September nine band called

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Speaker 1: Susie and the Banshees with a song called Hong Kong Garden. Um,

426
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,480
Speaker 1: it was like, oh my god, I've got a hit. Now.

427
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:13,880
Speaker 1: You can look at your life in two ways. Once

428
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:16,919
Speaker 1: you have a hit. You can either go, aren't I brilliant?

429
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:22,680
Speaker 1: I can turn turns into gold? Or what I did?

430
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 1: It was like, oh my god, I've had a hit.

431
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 1: I can just work with really good people. That's how

432
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:32,879
Speaker 1: I looked at it. You know. So because I was

433
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 1: a fanboy, you know, so I and you know, when

434
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 1: you're very young, you have many many people you were saying,

435
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:43,639
Speaker 1: oh what boy a fan boy. I was just loved music,

436
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 1: and I was very opinionated, and I and nowadays, when

437
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:49,639
Speaker 1: I ever I talked to young people and I'm either

438
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 1: interviewing someone for a job or you know, I can

439
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 1: learn a lot from them. If I say, you know,

440
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:56,720
Speaker 1: what sort of music do you like? And if a

441
00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:01,919
Speaker 1: young person says, I like all sorts, no good? You

442
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 1: know you shouldn't like all sorts of music. You should

443
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,400
Speaker 1: be opinionated when you're young, because when you get older,

444
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 1: you you start to understand that everything has a value.

445
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 1: But when you're young, that that that that narrow minded focus.

446
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 1: You know, you're like a boxer going into the ring.

447
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 1: You know, you you're focused on your career. And that's

448
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:23,920
Speaker 1: what I was. So I I just you know, I thought,

449
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:27,200
Speaker 1: what God EXTC I love extec, I'll go and produce them.

450
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:31,080
Speaker 1: And you know, I wanted to work with the creative,

451
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 1: talented people. I had no ego that said I wanted

452
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 1: to turn your rubbish act into a great act. So

453
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:42,360
Speaker 1: you know, every time I, you know, I had a hit,

454
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:45,920
Speaker 1: I would be offered all these bands who sounded like

455
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:48,960
Speaker 1: the band that I produced. You know, I've got nothing

456
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:52,400
Speaker 1: against a flock of seagulls. But just because I produced

457
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,240
Speaker 1: you two doesn't mean I should have produced the alarm

458
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:57,880
Speaker 1: or a flock of seagulls, you know, and I love

459
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:00,680
Speaker 1: them both, but it's just like, why so I used

460
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 1: my success with one artist to expand, which is why,

461
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,200
Speaker 1: you know, at the height of that sort of era

462
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,760
Speaker 1: in n I went off and produced Joan Arma Trading

463
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 1: and Peter Gabriel, which had nothing to do with punk rock,

464
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,240
Speaker 1: you know, but it was like, Okay, I've had success,

465
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:23,440
Speaker 1: these are creative, great artists, are going to work with them. Okay,

466
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:27,480
Speaker 1: you're talking about being opinionated. Needles to say, I am opinionated,

467
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:31,480
Speaker 1: and especially now and you're old, okay, but now more

468
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 1: than ever, people don't like opinionated people. So when you

469
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:36,919
Speaker 1: were growing up, were you remember the group or people

470
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 1: either love you or hear you? What was it like? No,

471
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 1: you're you're, you're you're You're supposed to be opinionated when

472
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 1: you're young, you know, you're you know. I would never

473
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 1: let guitarists bend notes because that was not you know,

474
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 1: that was from that era before us. That was from

475
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 1: the sort of you know, even though I produced Peter

476
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 1: Gabriel that was sort of Genesis and all those the

477
00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 1: Eagles they all did, you know, it was long boring

478
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 1: guitar solos. It was not what we wanted, short, sharp,

479
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 1: angry songs, you know, And of course that's dismissing everything

480
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:14,960
Speaker 1: that Dave Gilmour ever did by saying, don't bend notes. Now.

481
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,760
Speaker 1: Of course I love all sorts of things like that,

482
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 1: so you know, um, and actually no, I'm not as

483
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 1: a pinion. You know you are, and you're very but

484
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:28,200
Speaker 1: you are more the exception, Bob, because I think I

485
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 1: hated the Eagles growing up, I hated the Eagles. Now

486
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:35,600
Speaker 1: I actually have Hotel California on a playlist. I listened

487
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 1: to it for fun. You know, who would have thought, okay,

488
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 1: why and how did you get a gig as a

489
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:45,680
Speaker 1: tea boy For those people don't know that essentially the

490
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 1: lowest below you low even a second engineer. And sometimes

491
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:52,240
Speaker 1: what drove that I drove that fear. Fear has been

492
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 1: my driving force throughout my career. Fear has been the

493
00:29:56,600 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 1: thing that has has has kept me not complacent. Fear

494
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 1: has been the thing that uh enables me to do

495
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 1: to overachieve, because I know if I don't overachieve, my

496
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 1: natural talents will only enable me to flip burgers at McDonald's.

497
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 1: I mean seriously, because I know I didn't go to college.

498
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 1: I didn't even finish high school. I didn't, you know,

499
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 1: so when I got that job in a recording studio,

500
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 1: it was like my, my, my. It was fear joined

501
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 1: with wonder. You know. It's that wonder of of of

502
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 1: the of of what it was, the thing that you

503
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 1: would do. And I still have that, you know, those

504
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 1: moments and this doesn't happen so much anymore because you know,

505
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 1: records are made by committee, records are made one person

506
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:52,800
Speaker 1: at a time. You know, it's just and the reason

507
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 1: for that is is technology. Because technology enables you to

508
00:30:57,480 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 1: do that. So and I've said this before and I

509
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 1: always say this technology will always lead the art form.

510
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 1: The people who make the technology they don't know how

511
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 1: the artists are going to use it, because artists take

512
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 1: the technology and they abuse it. That's how it should be.

513
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 1: You know, That's how distortion came about. You know, distortion

514
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:22,040
Speaker 1: didn't come about from the from the from the people

515
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 1: who invented amts. It came about through people turning it

516
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 1: up to loud. Okay, but why did you get a job.

517
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 1: What was your motivation to work in a recording studio

518
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:35,480
Speaker 1: to begin with, because I didn't want to fucking flip Burgers.

519
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:38,200
Speaker 1: I talked to you, did you have that incredible sense

520
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,640
Speaker 1: of wonder about music? Always? When I was a bass

521
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:46,360
Speaker 1: player from the age of twelve, I I, um, you know,

522
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 1: I was a musician and I loved playing the bass.

523
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 1: And then when I got the job in the studio,

524
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:55,640
Speaker 1: my bass playing became less and less and and now

525
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:57,520
Speaker 1: I don't even own a basse, which is a bity

526
00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 1: because I do love just that love just sitting there

527
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 1: playing it. You know, do you do you have natural

528
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 1: music ability? I mean, I know after the Beatles, everybody

529
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 1: I knew bought a guitar, but it was clear who

530
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 1: could do it. I mean the story I always tell

531
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 1: I was playing with a friend who is now we're

532
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 1: going to change keys, and I said, I'm out. Okay,

533
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 1: So do you have natural ability at music? Yeah? I

534
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 1: think I do. I think I do, but but so

535
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 1: many people do. I have a great analogy about about

536
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 1: about the way the music businesses. Now. You know, there's

537
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 1: because there are the gatekeepers are I mean, you can

538
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 1: argue there's no official gatekeepers anymore. You know, the gatekeeper

539
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 1: is just and an artificial algorithm based on people, you know.

540
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 1: But the way I've always looked at it, I've I've

541
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 1: I've looked at it. It's like the you know, the

542
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 1: New York Marathon. You know, there's forty people running, and

543
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 1: I would never stop those forty people running. You know,

544
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:02,800
Speaker 1: they doing it for fun, right, that's the music business.

545
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 1: Everyone's running for fun. There are on a fun run.

546
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 1: I would never stop them. But the ones I'm interested

547
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 1: in are those five Ethiopians at the front. Those are

548
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:14,840
Speaker 1: the ones I really because they want to win. Those

549
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 1: are the ones I want to help with their career.

550
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:19,440
Speaker 1: And that's how I see. You know, my job is

551
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 1: to is to always recognize those five Ethiopians at the front.

552
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 1: You get the analogy, don't you. Boy? Of course, how

553
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:30,440
Speaker 1: good an engineer are you? I was never a great engineer.

554
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:35,360
Speaker 1: I was. I was a taypop. But you know, my

555
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 1: instincts were always just too but maybe not being taught,

556
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:43,760
Speaker 1: not being a very good learner or a slow learner.

557
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 1: I tended to to only learn the things that I needed,

558
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:51,720
Speaker 1: and I think that's probably a good thing. And I've

559
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:55,640
Speaker 1: a lot of people who are very clever, they don't

560
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:58,960
Speaker 1: they learn everything. And I could never learn everything. I

561
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 1: just had this I had this thing where I I

562
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:05,719
Speaker 1: was just clever enough to learn the things that I

563
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 1: needed to learn, even though I didn't know what they

564
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:10,279
Speaker 1: were at the time. It was just a natural thing,

565
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 1: you know. So how did you decide you were going

566
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 1: to be a producer? What what pushed you internally other

567
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:21,880
Speaker 1: than fear. Well, my my my recording studio. My boss

568
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:26,280
Speaker 1: allowed us at weekends to take in if the studio

569
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:29,279
Speaker 1: was empty, we could take in our own projects, you know,

570
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 1: and just to go and learn how to become a

571
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:34,759
Speaker 1: better engineer. So the first project I took into the

572
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:40,960
Speaker 1: studio was was a new wave band who were called Ultravox.

573
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 1: Now this was the Ultravox, the first version of Ultravox,

574
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:48,839
Speaker 1: who had a different singer actually and a guy called

575
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:52,520
Speaker 1: John Fox. They were much more like Punky Roxy music.

576
00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:55,960
Speaker 1: And and I did their demos in the studio and

577
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:58,760
Speaker 1: it was through those demos that they got a record

578
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:02,400
Speaker 1: deal and and uh, and that's how I got my

579
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:12,720
Speaker 1: first ever production, you know. Okay, so when the world

580
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:17,439
Speaker 1: opened after Susie, uh, the next record was what Well,

581
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:20,759
Speaker 1: So Susie came about through Johnny Thunders actually from the

582
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:23,680
Speaker 1: New York Dolls. I produced his album, which a lot

583
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 1: of people still like, but that wasn't a hit, So

584
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:30,920
Speaker 1: Susie was the first hit. Then I did UM, I

585
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 1: did XTC, I did a bank called the Members, I did.

586
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:37,040
Speaker 1: I did a lot of punk rock in those days,

587
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:42,400
Speaker 1: and oh well, I didn't do I seem to remember

588
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 1: that by the time I got the call for you too,

589
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:48,719
Speaker 1: I'd already I was already a name for sure. I mean,

590
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 1: I was you two second well good needles to say

591
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 1: you could close anybody in a meeting. But for yourself

592
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:59,359
Speaker 1: at that time, why you were you? What skill were

593
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:03,279
Speaker 1: you bringing into the studio that major projects for success? Well,

594
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:06,080
Speaker 1: as I say it was it was my enthusiasm, it

595
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 1: was my being. Okay. I remember the first time I

596
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:15,279
Speaker 1: ever saw my name in in in uh In in

597
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 1: the Enemy, I think it was or melody Maker. I

598
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:23,359
Speaker 1: was called omnipotent, and I thought this was fucking great.

599
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 1: And then I looked it up and I realized it

600
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:29,160
Speaker 1: wasn't actually that that great word, but I didn't know

601
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 1: what it meant. Um. Basically, I would go to the

602
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,200
Speaker 1: Marquee Club, I would go to all these gigs. I

603
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:41,479
Speaker 1: was around town looking at these bands, and even though

604
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:44,360
Speaker 1: you know, not all my records were hit, but but

605
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:48,400
Speaker 1: you know the Johnny Thunders album and the Ultravox album,

606
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:52,879
Speaker 1: and the and and the Susie and the Banshees album,

607
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 1: and then the Members and XTC and there were more.

608
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 1: There were more. I'll have to okay with I'll be

609
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 1: I'm not. I don't need an exhaustive list. But when

610
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:06,319
Speaker 1: you went into the studio, needless to say, can't some

611
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:09,760
Speaker 1: come with the songs written, Some can play their instruments,

612
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:13,960
Speaker 1: some do not. So what was your skill in taking

613
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:17,360
Speaker 1: the raw talent of the performer and ending up with

614
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:25,880
Speaker 1: a recording? My skill, I will instincts I I and

615
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 1: I like to think that when I I've always said

616
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 1: there are two sorts of producers. Let's let's just take

617
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 1: I'll say let's say, well, I won't say you too,

618
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 1: I'll say Dave Matthews Man, for instance. You know this

619
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:42,880
Speaker 1: came way way further down the line, But there's two

620
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:45,239
Speaker 1: sorts of producers. One will look at Dave Matthews Man.

621
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:49,560
Speaker 1: They'll see Dave Matthews He's the guy. He's like, obviously

622
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:53,719
Speaker 1: the main guy. I'll go and and work on him.

623
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:56,440
Speaker 1: I'll work that he you know, I'll make sure he

624
00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 1: me and him have this this this thing. I'm the

625
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:03,120
Speaker 1: other sort of producer. I look at the band and

626
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:06,200
Speaker 1: I go, Okay, where are the wheat links. Where's the

627
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:10,000
Speaker 1: person who's not feeling that confidence. I'll go and talk

628
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 1: to them, because I know that the Dave or the

629
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:16,719
Speaker 1: or the Bonno or whoever will always you know, they

630
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:20,080
Speaker 1: don't need to ingratiate myself with them. They have the ego,

631
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:24,479
Speaker 1: they're fine. But maybe that bass player, he's quiet. He's

632
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:26,680
Speaker 1: the one that the rest of the band are slightly

633
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:30,880
Speaker 1: mocking or something like. You know, Mike my I've become

634
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 1: so good at this, Bob. I can almost tell who

635
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:37,840
Speaker 1: plays what instrument in a band just by meeting them,

636
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 1: because I see this sort of you know, I love

637
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:45,799
Speaker 1: the village. I love the the infrastructure of of of

638
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:50,719
Speaker 1: a of a working of a working organism, you know

639
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:54,200
Speaker 1: I I see it not as a Okay, So you

640
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:57,960
Speaker 1: find the weak link and you work with them. How

641
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:01,280
Speaker 1: other than they're one particular skill, How does that trans

642
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:04,160
Speaker 1: lead to the others and make the project better? Well,

643
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:07,400
Speaker 1: they don't need the others don't need well, because you

644
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:10,520
Speaker 1: are only as strong as your weakest linked right, So

645
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:12,960
Speaker 1: if I work on the weakest linked, then the whole

646
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:18,160
Speaker 1: thing will become better. Um, and you know one thing

647
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:21,879
Speaker 1: I didn't. It's just common sense, you know, for me.

648
00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:25,239
Speaker 1: And this sounds fucking stupid to say, but a lot

649
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 1: of people don't think of this, is that a record

650
00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:32,080
Speaker 1: has to get better the longer time you work on it.

651
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:35,239
Speaker 1: And that sounds stupid, well, of course, but so many

652
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:38,719
Speaker 1: people their records go off courts. You know how many

653
00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:42,440
Speaker 1: people have you met After the first week they go, oh, Bob,

654
00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 1: the album sounding great. We want a great drum sound.

655
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:48,920
Speaker 1: And then after two months they're they're saying, Bob, something's

656
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:52,080
Speaker 1: gone wrong. They're pulling their head, they're pulling their hair out.

657
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:54,880
Speaker 1: And you know, my job as the producer is to

658
00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 1: see that and to realize when that's happening. You know,

659
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:02,399
Speaker 1: it's your I always say, it's like I'm the I'm

660
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:05,280
Speaker 1: the captain of the ship. My job is to steer

661
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:09,080
Speaker 1: that ship safely to port. Now, the Titanic was a

662
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:11,959
Speaker 1: fucking great ship, but look what came to that. Let's

663
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 1: assume they come into the sort with a song. Might

664
00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:19,600
Speaker 1: you say, need another verse, change a lyric? Would you

665
00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:23,320
Speaker 1: go into those specific creative elpments. But of course I would.

666
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:28,200
Speaker 1: But I go back to what I said earlier. I

667
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:32,160
Speaker 1: wanted to work with the best people. You know, I'm

668
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:36,160
Speaker 1: not a Svengali. Well, i am in my own way,

669
00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 1: but I'm not this, you know, it's it's not for me.

670
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:45,160
Speaker 1: I'm not like a film director. A film director is dictatorial,

671
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:49,680
Speaker 1: you know. A record producer is all about collaboration. And

672
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 1: if I feel when I meet them and see them live,

673
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:59,440
Speaker 1: that there's enough wiggle room between the creative and me.

674
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:02,680
Speaker 1: You know, I'm not the sort of producer who who

675
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:05,760
Speaker 1: is proud to say I had to fire the drummer.

676
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:09,239
Speaker 1: Who the funk am I to say I had to

677
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:12,800
Speaker 1: fire the drummer that band? Maybe the drummer his job

678
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:16,239
Speaker 1: was not just the drumming. His job was to tell

679
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:19,839
Speaker 1: the singer your ship write better lyrics. You know, did R. E.

680
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 1: M Ever have a hit record after Bill Berry left? No?

681
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:27,400
Speaker 1: They had the best drummers in the fucking world, but

682
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:32,839
Speaker 1: they never had a Yet. There's a reason why the

683
00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:35,840
Speaker 1: greatest musician is not always the best, because it's the

684
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:38,759
Speaker 1: infrastructure of the band and what their job is. And

685
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:42,440
Speaker 1: who am I to say, you know, fire the drummer.

686
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:47,319
Speaker 1: You know, it's that's that's my punk ethic. Still, would

687
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 1: you ever bring in ringers? Would you ever bring in

688
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:53,080
Speaker 1: studio players to play parts? And maybe the part of

689
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:55,960
Speaker 1: you know, completely of one of the band members, Na

690
00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:59,880
Speaker 1: Mick Jagger brought in Anton fig to play the bass drums,

691
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:04,640
Speaker 1: because I mean, Charlie Wats is fantastic and his and

692
00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:08,960
Speaker 1: his and his snare drum is always great. But but

693
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:11,160
Speaker 1: but this was in the days where you you know,

694
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 1: there was no sampling or anything, so we literally brought

695
00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:17,640
Speaker 1: in a bass drum to um to to to to

696
00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:20,880
Speaker 1: replace the bass drum. But you know, his foot was

697
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:25,000
Speaker 1: sometimes not so good. But in general, no, I would

698
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:27,759
Speaker 1: you know, I have the patience of a saint. I

699
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:30,840
Speaker 1: mean I will sit with someone for hours and hours

700
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 1: and hours to get the performance, and I will train

701
00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:35,640
Speaker 1: them and I will make sure that they can do it.

702
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:40,640
Speaker 1: So before I enter a project, I would make sure

703
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:44,920
Speaker 1: that I can get an acceptable performance out of this musician.

704
00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:48,960
Speaker 1: You know, so replacing a member of the band has

705
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:54,560
Speaker 1: so many unforeseen consequences. You know, you are not you're

706
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:58,080
Speaker 1: destroying the weakest link. You are not building the weakest

707
00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:02,440
Speaker 1: link on left sets, Okay, do you have a preference

708
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:05,279
Speaker 1: and what's the difference between working with a solo act

709
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:09,440
Speaker 1: and a band. Well, my history just speaks itself. I'm

710
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:13,239
Speaker 1: I've had many more. I'll veer towards bands much more

711
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:17,040
Speaker 1: because for me, a band has this thing that that

712
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:19,680
Speaker 1: you know, I mean. But even when I work with

713
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:23,200
Speaker 1: with solo artists, I like to make, you know, a

714
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:28,200
Speaker 1: band idea. I like to I like to to make

715
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:31,520
Speaker 1: it seem like a band, you know, because that that

716
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:34,280
Speaker 1: that's But that's in the days of working with musicians

717
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:36,759
Speaker 1: who interact with each other. Now people don't do that.

718
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:40,040
Speaker 1: Is it's just a different world. I'm not I'm not

719
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:42,400
Speaker 1: saying the world was better before or worse. You know,

720
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:45,080
Speaker 1: I'm not a ludder when it comes to that, because

721
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 1: technology will always lead the artful. Okay, so you say

722
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:53,760
Speaker 1: you were driven by fear at the beginning. You've worked

723
00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:56,839
Speaker 1: with literally the biggest acts in the world. They don't

724
00:43:56,880 --> 00:44:00,800
Speaker 1: get any bigger. Do you have any fear you're meeting

725
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:05,520
Speaker 1: anybody now? And would you still have anxiety and fear

726
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:09,000
Speaker 1: making a record with anybody? Or have you've done so

727
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:11,960
Speaker 1: much success, so much confidence of the anxiety and fear

728
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:14,359
Speaker 1: of disappeared. No, no, no, I still have the fear.

729
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:18,279
Speaker 1: I'm not really making records at the moment. I mean,

730
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:23,480
Speaker 1: I've sort of retired without even knowing it, weirdly, you know,

731
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:25,640
Speaker 1: I haven't been into the student, you know. I don't.

732
00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:28,640
Speaker 1: I don't want to be one of those jobbing producers,

733
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:32,440
Speaker 1: you know. I I there's other things in life to

734
00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:35,040
Speaker 1: do than you know. And I've done it for forty years.

735
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:39,279
Speaker 1: And as I say, my enthusiasm coupled with my fear.

736
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:41,720
Speaker 1: That's I mean, it's it's this sort of balance between

737
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:46,680
Speaker 1: fear and enthusiasm. Um, and as my fear has slightly gone,

738
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:49,600
Speaker 1: so is my enthusiasm. When I and I moved to

739
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:53,920
Speaker 1: Indonesia and and my you know, it's just a whole

740
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:57,080
Speaker 1: new set of music to learn, you know. And I

741
00:44:57,120 --> 00:44:59,640
Speaker 1: know all about their local styles of music. I know

742
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:03,640
Speaker 1: they're their stars. I know that gossip. You know. I'm

743
00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:06,200
Speaker 1: completely you know, I love it. It's it's a whole

744
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:12,719
Speaker 1: new thing for me. But but but yeah, fear, fear

745
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:18,279
Speaker 1: is something, but yeah, and my enthusiasm is Okay, let's

746
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:20,600
Speaker 1: go to some of these famous records. How did you

747
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:23,440
Speaker 1: get the job with Peter Gabriel and What was it

748
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:26,560
Speaker 1: like recording that record? Oh, well, Peter Gabriel was That

749
00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:29,799
Speaker 1: was the first time I had been I mean, it

750
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 1: was so left field that when I got the core

751
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:34,480
Speaker 1: from his manager, I actually thought it was one of

752
00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:40,720
Speaker 1: my friends, um telling me, uh to, you know, making

753
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:44,760
Speaker 1: a joke, you know, because Peter Gabriel was definitely from

754
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:51,360
Speaker 1: the the the era that we were all um rebelling against,

755
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:54,480
Speaker 1: you know, because you know he came for you know,

756
00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:56,719
Speaker 1: he wore a horse's head and you know, it's like

757
00:45:56,760 --> 00:46:01,360
Speaker 1: Genesis were considered that the hippiest, dippiest, you know, boarding

758
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:05,840
Speaker 1: school type type music, you know. But but then I

759
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 1: realized it wasn't someone phoning me up for a joke.

760
00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:11,360
Speaker 1: So I had the meeting with Peter, and when we talked,

761
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:15,239
Speaker 1: it was like, wow, he sounds like he was you know,

762
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:17,640
Speaker 1: he was into the sort of records that I've made,

763
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:22,040
Speaker 1: um he And there was one thing that he said

764
00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:24,719
Speaker 1: that really got me. He said, Steve, I want to

765
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:30,279
Speaker 1: make an album without any symbols, you know, and and

766
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:33,640
Speaker 1: because of the sorts of person I am and my enthusiasm.

767
00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:36,520
Speaker 1: I mean, there's some producers who would go that's ridiculous.

768
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:39,359
Speaker 1: You can't make a run record without symbols, you know.

769
00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:43,319
Speaker 1: But for me I and I see a problem and

770
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:45,840
Speaker 1: see that as a challenge, you know. So it was

771
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:49,200
Speaker 1: like my enthusiasm clicked in immediately and I thought, Wow,

772
00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:51,319
Speaker 1: no symbols, that means I can do this, I can

773
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:53,880
Speaker 1: do that, and I can you know, And and that

774
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:56,440
Speaker 1: got me enthusiastic, the fact that he wanted to do

775
00:46:56,600 --> 00:47:02,040
Speaker 1: things that were not like normal, you know. So even

776
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:04,319
Speaker 1: though that album was you know, when you listen to

777
00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:06,640
Speaker 1: it now, it sounds like one of the darkest you know,

778
00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:11,200
Speaker 1: it's songs about being in the mental hospital and you know,

779
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:15,719
Speaker 1: very very worthy songs about Steve Beaco, which I thought

780
00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:22,719
Speaker 1: was about Phil Silver's by the way, umkay, you know

781
00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:24,800
Speaker 1: I wondered. Okay, but let's let's stop for a second.

782
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:26,840
Speaker 1: When you work with Peter Gabriel, not only did he

783
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:30,880
Speaker 1: have experience, he's opinionated himself. So when you work with

784
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:34,080
Speaker 1: somebody like cam Or Jagger and Richard et cetera, do

785
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:39,319
Speaker 1: you your roles shrink or does it stay the same? Oh? No,

786
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:42,879
Speaker 1: I am you know you have to be if you've

787
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:47,279
Speaker 1: worked with so many different look. I have read interviews

788
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:51,160
Speaker 1: with my contemporaries who have so many set rules it

789
00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:55,080
Speaker 1: absolutely astounds me. I have no rules. I mean, my

790
00:47:55,239 --> 00:47:57,279
Speaker 1: job is the captain of the shape. As I said,

791
00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:01,440
Speaker 1: it's you know, I mold myself off to what the

792
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:05,560
Speaker 1: artist wants. Keith Richards wanted to start work at midnight,

793
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:08,000
Speaker 1: one o'clock in the morning. That's what time we came

794
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:12,600
Speaker 1: to the studio. I mold myself around what the artists needs,

795
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:15,759
Speaker 1: and my my job is to work out how to

796
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:19,520
Speaker 1: get the best record within the parameters of what they

797
00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:24,520
Speaker 1: you know. And also they must love their album. I mean,

798
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:28,400
Speaker 1: you know, they must. They at the end of the day,

799
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:31,560
Speaker 1: they must. It's their arts and they always you know,

800
00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:34,799
Speaker 1: my artists always think of it as art. You know,

801
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:38,920
Speaker 1: they're artists, so they have to love the end results.

802
00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:41,760
Speaker 1: And my job is to help them realize their vision.

803
00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:44,839
Speaker 1: You know. As I say, I'm the worst producer. If

804
00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:48,000
Speaker 1: someone says to me, Steve, I'll do whatever you want,

805
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:50,880
Speaker 1: I don't want that. I want someone to come up

806
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:53,040
Speaker 1: to me and say, Steve, I've got these ten ideas.

807
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:55,279
Speaker 1: I say, Okay, give me the ten ideas. Take a

808
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:57,799
Speaker 1: bit of that, take a bit of that. That one

809
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:01,680
Speaker 1: there that's great, but expanded, do this and then you know,

810
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:08,279
Speaker 1: um and uh yeah, that's that's that's how I do it.

811
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:13,840
Speaker 1: I need you know, I I can help grow the seed.

812
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:18,520
Speaker 1: I am not the seed. You know my job. Let's

813
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:20,840
Speaker 1: let's go back to Gabriel fan. I was not a

814
00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:23,080
Speaker 1: big Genesis fan before that. There were so many prog

815
00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:25,600
Speaker 1: rock bands, couldn't be into all of them. But I

816
00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:28,080
Speaker 1: certainly was involved from the beginning of the solo career

817
00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:30,719
Speaker 1: as a fan. Uh you know. I worked with Ezrin,

818
00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:34,400
Speaker 1: then he worked with what's his name from King Grim's

819
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:39,400
Speaker 1: and Fripp, then he worked with you a couple of things. Hey,

820
00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:41,640
Speaker 1: how did you feel did you think you should have

821
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:44,560
Speaker 1: been hired for the next record. Secondly, don't forget I

822
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:48,560
Speaker 1: have an American perspective. In America, the buzz on his

823
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:52,279
Speaker 1: solo career was not high. Two albums that come out

824
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:56,920
Speaker 1: Atlantic dropped him, came on Mercury, which is the worst label. However,

825
00:49:57,920 --> 00:50:00,640
Speaker 1: and I know all the records. I firm he believed

826
00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:03,839
Speaker 1: that is his best work. So when the record came

827
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:08,000
Speaker 1: out and it didn't immediately shoot to success, did that

828
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:10,120
Speaker 1: did you know how good it was? And how did

829
00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:13,040
Speaker 1: you feel that he moved on from you? We loved

830
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:16,120
Speaker 1: making that album. I mean we it was in a

831
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:19,279
Speaker 1: way we had this, especially as Colodna used to come

832
00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:23,520
Speaker 1: to the studio and because Colodna signed him to Atlantic

833
00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:26,160
Speaker 1: and eventually dropped him and then re signed him to Geffen,

834
00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:31,719
Speaker 1: as you know the story. But but but you know, uh,

835
00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:35,120
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, we we we were. He used

836
00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:37,160
Speaker 1: to come over from l A. And when when we

837
00:50:37,239 --> 00:50:41,520
Speaker 1: knew he was coming, we would turn the air conditioning

838
00:50:41,640 --> 00:50:45,880
Speaker 1: up so so high in the studio that it was

839
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:49,960
Speaker 1: fucking freezing just about ten minutes before he came into

840
00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:53,560
Speaker 1: the studio. So when he came in, you could see

841
00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:57,040
Speaker 1: him flinch because he was like Mr. California guy, and

842
00:50:57,080 --> 00:51:01,120
Speaker 1: it was so cold, and but we pretended that it

843
00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:04,880
Speaker 1: wasn't that cold. So we sat him down and played

844
00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:08,800
Speaker 1: him the songs and we were freezing, but we wouldn't

845
00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:12,840
Speaker 1: say it because we wanted that, you know, and it

846
00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:16,400
Speaker 1: wasn't and it was childish, you know, but but we

847
00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:20,880
Speaker 1: wanted our thing, you know. And Peter was fearless, you know,

848
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:25,239
Speaker 1: it was like, you know, he wanted it to be

849
00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:29,000
Speaker 1: different and m and we knew we had something good there.

850
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:32,960
Speaker 1: But but but but it came out of joy, even

851
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:36,440
Speaker 1: though as I say the album is very dark. Um

852
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:38,839
Speaker 1: and I no, I never thought about working with him again.

853
00:51:39,080 --> 00:51:41,200
Speaker 1: In those days, there was you know, there were so

854
00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:44,479
Speaker 1: many records, and I never thought it was my job

855
00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:47,000
Speaker 1: to stay with an artist forever. You know, you can,

856
00:51:47,560 --> 00:51:50,200
Speaker 1: you know, you can argue that the George Martin model.

857
00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:53,480
Speaker 1: But I liked the idea In those days. I used

858
00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:56,440
Speaker 1: to think that I can work with so many different artists.

859
00:51:56,800 --> 00:52:00,400
Speaker 1: It's why shouldn't you you know. I had sort of

860
00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:04,280
Speaker 1: idea with you too. I I after every single album

861
00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:06,160
Speaker 1: of theirs, I said no, I don't want to do

862
00:52:06,239 --> 00:52:09,080
Speaker 1: the next one, and they said, okay, but can you

863
00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:11,760
Speaker 1: do the next one? I went all right then, Literally

864
00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:15,080
Speaker 1: I gave them an out after every time I worked

865
00:52:15,080 --> 00:52:16,520
Speaker 1: with them, and they always asked me back for the

866
00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:20,600
Speaker 1: first three. Um. But but no. With with Peter, it

867
00:52:20,680 --> 00:52:23,560
Speaker 1: was yeah, it was that that air conditioning. That's a

868
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:26,320
Speaker 1: true story. We used to do it just for fun, really,

869
00:52:26,400 --> 00:52:33,000
Speaker 1: because we wanted because you know, Colodner's idea of the

870
00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:35,600
Speaker 1: best record in the world was the one that sold

871
00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:38,439
Speaker 1: the most, you know, I mean that was literally his

872
00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:45,680
Speaker 1: way of thinking, and and we tended to disagree with that.

873
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:49,960
Speaker 1: Graciously we disagree with that, Mr Colodna, the best record

874
00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:51,920
Speaker 1: in the world is not the one that sells the most.

875
00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:54,759
Speaker 1: Now I can understand what he was talking about, but

876
00:52:54,920 --> 00:53:00,240
Speaker 1: I as it was such a a a a an

877
00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:03,040
Speaker 1: idea that he that he when he said that, it

878
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:06,200
Speaker 1: was like, how can you say that? It was so

879
00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:10,680
Speaker 1: against what we were doing for us? You know that's

880
00:53:10,760 --> 00:53:14,000
Speaker 1: that that you know we immediate I immediately lost any

881
00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:17,240
Speaker 1: respect for him. Okay, how did you en they're poking

882
00:53:17,320 --> 00:53:21,759
Speaker 1: up with you two? With you two? They that there

883
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:27,120
Speaker 1: was you remember Factory Records. Factory Records. Tony Wilson was

884
00:53:27,120 --> 00:53:29,239
Speaker 1: a good friend of our What a lovely man, What

885
00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:33,160
Speaker 1: a lovely lovely literally the most educated man in the

886
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:35,640
Speaker 1: music business. You would walk through me and Chester he

887
00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:38,200
Speaker 1: would point stuff out. It's like unbelievable. I would just

888
00:53:38,239 --> 00:53:40,640
Speaker 1: be quiet. He was a fan of information, Yeah he was.

889
00:53:40,719 --> 00:53:43,360
Speaker 1: He was brilliant. And of course he had Factory Records,

890
00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:45,960
Speaker 1: which had Joy Division. Now Joy Division had a producer

891
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:51,240
Speaker 1: called Martin Hannett and Martin Hanne. He was all parts

892
00:53:51,239 --> 00:53:53,160
Speaker 1: of Joy. He was almost like a fifth member of

893
00:53:53,239 --> 00:53:56,839
Speaker 1: Joy Division. He he was their sound. He put them

894
00:53:56,840 --> 00:53:58,680
Speaker 1: all to He was a bit older than them. Obviously,

895
00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:01,879
Speaker 1: and so you two when they were looking for their

896
00:54:02,040 --> 00:54:07,319
Speaker 1: first producer, they chose Martin Hannett. And you know in

897
00:54:07,360 --> 00:54:10,840
Speaker 1: those days when you and and Martin Hannet went and

898
00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:15,279
Speaker 1: recorded one single with them and they loved it, song

899
00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:18,319
Speaker 1: called the eleven o'clock TikTok, and they asked him to

900
00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:22,920
Speaker 1: produce the album. Well, what happened was that Ian Curtis

901
00:54:22,920 --> 00:54:29,480
Speaker 1: from Joy Division committed suicide and Martin Hannitt um decided

902
00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:32,640
Speaker 1: it really affected him in a bad way. And and

903
00:54:33,160 --> 00:54:37,120
Speaker 1: you know, because he was like really close close to

904
00:54:37,200 --> 00:54:39,239
Speaker 1: Joy Division, and so he said to YouTube that he

905
00:54:39,239 --> 00:54:42,680
Speaker 1: couldn't produce their album. So you two then went back

906
00:54:42,680 --> 00:54:45,080
Speaker 1: to their list of producers. A number two on the

907
00:54:45,239 --> 00:54:49,279
Speaker 1: list was Steve lily White. So I got this is

908
00:54:49,320 --> 00:54:52,320
Speaker 1: a funny story. I got flown to the West coast

909
00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:55,440
Speaker 1: of Ireland to see a gig and I was told

910
00:54:55,440 --> 00:54:58,239
Speaker 1: I would be met by a Mr McGinnis. Now in

911
00:54:58,239 --> 00:55:01,960
Speaker 1: those days, in those days, if you are if you

912
00:55:02,719 --> 00:55:07,480
Speaker 1: in you're met by a Mr McGinnis at Cork airport.

913
00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:12,400
Speaker 1: I was really expecting a guy on a tractor with

914
00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:16,719
Speaker 1: with straw out of his ears. You know, get to

915
00:55:16,760 --> 00:55:20,640
Speaker 1: the airport, come off, Hello, Steve, Paul McGinnis here as

916
00:55:20,719 --> 00:55:24,600
Speaker 1: you know him, right, And I, oh, hope Paul, and

917
00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:27,200
Speaker 1: come with me. So we got in his car and

918
00:55:27,239 --> 00:55:31,080
Speaker 1: we drove forty minutes to the gig, during which point

919
00:55:31,239 --> 00:55:35,480
Speaker 1: he started to play the worst sounding demos I had

920
00:55:35,520 --> 00:55:41,120
Speaker 1: ever heard. I mean, honestly, they were just so embarrassing.

921
00:55:41,640 --> 00:55:45,440
Speaker 1: But for him, he was in salesman mode. You know,

922
00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:49,520
Speaker 1: Paul McGinnis is a fantastic salesman. And he never once

923
00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:52,000
Speaker 1: came to the student. He never gave an opinion on

924
00:55:52,160 --> 00:55:56,560
Speaker 1: his artist's art because for him, why would he question

925
00:55:57,239 --> 00:56:00,640
Speaker 1: his artists art if he was their manager. They do

926
00:56:00,760 --> 00:56:03,879
Speaker 1: the art, he does the business, you know very much.

927
00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:06,359
Speaker 1: He was that sort of a manager who I as

928
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:09,399
Speaker 1: a producer I love because he never questioned what we

929
00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:12,600
Speaker 1: were doing in the studio. So anyway, he was like

930
00:56:12,719 --> 00:56:16,319
Speaker 1: selling me on this terrible sounding demo in the car

931
00:56:16,480 --> 00:56:20,160
Speaker 1: on his terrible shitty car speakers, you know, and I

932
00:56:20,239 --> 00:56:23,879
Speaker 1: was my heart was starting to sink um. And then

933
00:56:23,960 --> 00:56:25,640
Speaker 1: we we we got to the gig and it was

934
00:56:25,680 --> 00:56:29,000
Speaker 1: in a in a in a school hall, and literally

935
00:56:29,160 --> 00:56:31,520
Speaker 1: all the boys were on one side and all the

936
00:56:31,600 --> 00:56:34,560
Speaker 1: girls were on the other side, and and I'm and

937
00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:37,839
Speaker 1: I'm I'm standing in the middle, and I have only

938
00:56:37,880 --> 00:56:42,520
Speaker 1: twenty three years old, but I feel old, you know. Um.

939
00:56:42,840 --> 00:56:46,520
Speaker 1: So the band came on straightaway into I Will Follow,

940
00:56:46,760 --> 00:56:51,799
Speaker 1: and I went, oh great, you know. So then it

941
00:56:51,920 --> 00:56:54,520
Speaker 1: was a good gig. And there was something, you know,

942
00:56:54,800 --> 00:56:57,000
Speaker 1: like everyone in those days, was that there's something about

943
00:56:57,040 --> 00:56:59,799
Speaker 1: this band, you know, So we went to meet them

944
00:57:00,200 --> 00:57:05,239
Speaker 1: stage afterwards. They had the personalities of teenage boys, which

945
00:57:05,280 --> 00:57:09,160
Speaker 1: is basically mumbling, you know, but when they were on stage,

946
00:57:09,160 --> 00:57:13,240
Speaker 1: they were not. You know that Borrow very much became

947
00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:19,720
Speaker 1: out of his body, you know, he he um, he would.

948
00:57:19,840 --> 00:57:24,120
Speaker 1: He's very able to get to a place that other

949
00:57:24,160 --> 00:57:28,680
Speaker 1: people get to only with drugs, you know, that that thing.

950
00:57:28,840 --> 00:57:32,080
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, drugs can get you to a

951
00:57:32,240 --> 00:57:36,560
Speaker 1: very creative place. But I mean, I'm sober. I told

952
00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:39,160
Speaker 1: you twenty three years I only got my Grammars after

953
00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:44,120
Speaker 1: I got sober, and so you can be creative without that.

954
00:57:44,800 --> 00:57:49,040
Speaker 1: But some people but but it's all but it's more difficult,

955
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:52,000
Speaker 1: you know. You can, you can to get to that

956
00:57:52,080 --> 00:57:55,080
Speaker 1: place and and and Bono manages to get to that

957
00:57:55,120 --> 00:57:59,920
Speaker 1: place without without external stimulation. And I think that maybe faith,

958
00:58:00,480 --> 00:58:04,400
Speaker 1: you know, it may maybe a god belief that that

959
00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:07,080
Speaker 1: that gives him that ability to just because he's the

960
00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:12,040
Speaker 1: most cat handed person, you know. He's like, he's famously

961
00:58:12,080 --> 00:58:15,280
Speaker 1: a bad a bad driver. Everyone says, don't get in

962
00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:18,920
Speaker 1: a car with borrow, you know. But but he's like

963
00:58:18,960 --> 00:58:22,800
Speaker 1: a ballet dancer on stage. But he's the most clumsy

964
00:58:22,880 --> 00:58:26,160
Speaker 1: person you'll ever meet outside, you know, So he has

965
00:58:26,160 --> 00:58:30,360
Speaker 1: this ability to just just become this uh, this swan

966
00:58:30,600 --> 00:58:34,120
Speaker 1: when he's on stage. Now, living in Los Angeles, we

967
00:58:34,200 --> 00:58:36,680
Speaker 1: had k Rock, which immediately when and I will follow.

968
00:58:37,680 --> 00:58:40,000
Speaker 1: I certainly bought the album for a long time until

969
00:58:40,000 --> 00:58:42,720
Speaker 1: our two baby. I was convinced it was the best one.

970
00:58:43,240 --> 00:58:47,120
Speaker 1: Did you know what you had after making Boy? No?

971
00:58:47,920 --> 00:58:50,439
Speaker 1: And you know what, they didn't either. No one really

972
00:58:50,520 --> 00:58:54,919
Speaker 1: knew it's only and it was funny twenty year anniversary

973
00:58:54,920 --> 00:58:58,520
Speaker 1: of Boy and and it was remastered and the band

974
00:58:58,560 --> 00:59:04,120
Speaker 1: had to listen to the remastering and and and I

975
00:59:04,120 --> 00:59:06,720
Speaker 1: think they've never heard the album obviously you don't, you

976
00:59:06,720 --> 00:59:11,480
Speaker 1: know you you live, but they had to check the remastering.

977
00:59:12,080 --> 00:59:15,040
Speaker 1: And I got a phone call from Bono's Steve our

978
00:59:15,120 --> 00:59:21,120
Speaker 1: debut album, it's fucking great, you know, And I went well, yeah,

979
00:59:21,360 --> 00:59:24,720
Speaker 1: thank you Bow, you know, because he didn't know, and

980
00:59:24,760 --> 00:59:27,040
Speaker 1: he listened to all the production values and all the

981
00:59:27,120 --> 00:59:29,560
Speaker 1: like weird little things that I did, and you know,

982
00:59:29,800 --> 00:59:33,880
Speaker 1: and and for him it was like just you know, fantastic.

983
00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:36,320
Speaker 1: And he actually went out and really gave you know,

984
00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:39,320
Speaker 1: he truly believed it was a great album. Only on

985
00:59:39,360 --> 00:59:41,919
Speaker 1: the twentieth anniversary, but he did say to me, Steve,

986
00:59:42,880 --> 00:59:44,760
Speaker 1: it's really great. But there is one thing I don't like.

987
00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:47,040
Speaker 1: I said, what's that? Mosis? I don't like the singer

988
00:59:49,480 --> 01:00:01,160
Speaker 1: good Now, the Edge is famous for creating sounds with

989
01:00:01,240 --> 01:00:04,640
Speaker 1: effects in the studio. How much time did you spend

990
01:00:04,760 --> 01:00:09,040
Speaker 1: getting those sounds? Oh? Well, you know, Edge Edges famous

991
01:00:09,040 --> 01:00:14,160
Speaker 1: for spending of his time getting the sound and one

992
01:00:14,240 --> 01:00:17,760
Speaker 1: percent of the time recording it. You know, I mean

993
01:00:17,760 --> 01:00:21,120
Speaker 1: that's his thing. I mean Edges a sonic. Uh. You know.

994
01:00:21,320 --> 01:00:23,880
Speaker 1: Edge is the scientist of the band. He's the one

995
01:00:24,240 --> 01:00:27,200
Speaker 1: he wears a white coat with with with pains in

996
01:00:27,200 --> 01:00:31,720
Speaker 1: his top pocket and and and his slow and methodical

997
01:00:32,280 --> 01:00:38,560
Speaker 1: and and and that's him. He's never perturbed. You know,

998
01:00:39,040 --> 01:00:43,080
Speaker 1: very rarely does Edge get incredibly enthusiastic, And very rarely

999
01:00:43,360 --> 01:00:47,320
Speaker 1: does he get incredibly down. He is the steady turtle,

1000
01:00:47,800 --> 01:00:52,440
Speaker 1: you know. He he's slow but steady. Botto is the

1001
01:00:52,480 --> 01:00:56,640
Speaker 1: fucking headless chicken, you know. As you know, Okay, you've

1002
01:00:56,680 --> 01:01:00,080
Speaker 1: had those guys right, you made these three record it,

1003
01:01:01,200 --> 01:01:04,560
Speaker 1: then they move on with you know. But it's kind

1004
01:01:04,560 --> 01:01:08,720
Speaker 1: of like Godfather three. They always pull you in. What's

1005
01:01:08,720 --> 01:01:12,080
Speaker 1: that about? And it seems like every recordgend to working

1006
01:01:12,160 --> 01:01:16,000
Speaker 1: out anyway. It's it's true. And and this is thanks

1007
01:01:16,000 --> 01:01:19,680
Speaker 1: to Mr McGinnis, who is very very very black and

1008
01:01:19,720 --> 01:01:24,080
Speaker 1: white in his thinking. Because it was on the Joshua Tree.

1009
01:01:24,080 --> 01:01:27,400
Speaker 1: I didn't do anything on Unforgettable Fire, you know, but

1010
01:01:27,400 --> 01:01:31,560
Speaker 1: but when the Joshua Tree was being made, they basically, um,

1011
01:01:31,680 --> 01:01:34,560
Speaker 1: they're they're they're eighteen months into the album. They've they've

1012
01:01:35,120 --> 01:01:37,840
Speaker 1: you know, and they had a meeting with Paul and

1013
01:01:37,960 --> 01:01:42,040
Speaker 1: so so legend has it. Paul said, look, you know,

1014
01:01:42,680 --> 01:01:45,160
Speaker 1: you're a big band, but we've got everyone on salary.

1015
01:01:45,240 --> 01:01:47,280
Speaker 1: We need to get out. We need to finish this

1016
01:01:47,360 --> 01:01:52,800
Speaker 1: album because we can't keep recording forever. And and he

1017
01:01:52,840 --> 01:01:54,800
Speaker 1: said when you you know, and he said, when you

1018
01:01:54,880 --> 01:01:58,240
Speaker 1: were recorded with Steve, you made records in like three

1019
01:01:58,280 --> 01:02:02,919
Speaker 1: months maximum, you know. By war took about three months.

1020
01:02:02,960 --> 01:02:06,920
Speaker 1: I think boy took six weeks October two months, and

1021
01:02:07,120 --> 01:02:10,400
Speaker 1: he said, why don't you get Steven maybe he can

1022
01:02:11,000 --> 01:02:16,600
Speaker 1: he can help finish off the album. So the band went, okay, great,

1023
01:02:16,680 --> 01:02:22,760
Speaker 1: so they invited me back and um and basically they

1024
01:02:22,760 --> 01:02:25,400
Speaker 1: were they were. They gave me the songs that they

1025
01:02:25,880 --> 01:02:28,520
Speaker 1: felt were the most For some reason, with them, I

1026
01:02:28,600 --> 01:02:31,560
Speaker 1: had this sort of reputation as the guy who would

1027
01:02:31,560 --> 01:02:34,680
Speaker 1: do the singles, you know, I was the guy. And

1028
01:02:34,680 --> 01:02:37,400
Speaker 1: it wasn't just mixing it says mixed by but that

1029
01:02:37,400 --> 01:02:41,160
Speaker 1: that is not much. It's much more like a relay race,

1030
01:02:41,800 --> 01:02:45,440
Speaker 1: you know, a YouTube. And now many people make records

1031
01:02:45,480 --> 01:02:47,840
Speaker 1: this way, funnily enough, but this was probably the first

1032
01:02:48,240 --> 01:02:53,760
Speaker 1: relay race that that um that in recording it. So basically,

1033
01:02:54,520 --> 01:02:57,320
Speaker 1: but Brian you know, and Danny Lanoir said to me

1034
01:02:57,400 --> 01:02:59,480
Speaker 1: they were they were burnt out on where the streets

1035
01:02:59,480 --> 01:03:01,960
Speaker 1: have no name. So they basically handed the baton to

1036
01:03:02,040 --> 01:03:04,720
Speaker 1: me and my job was to just carry on the

1037
01:03:04,760 --> 01:03:08,120
Speaker 1: production while they went and worked on One Tree Hill

1038
01:03:08,240 --> 01:03:13,040
Speaker 1: and some you know, some of the more obscure songs

1039
01:03:13,080 --> 01:03:16,720
Speaker 1: on site too, which still had to be finished, you know.

1040
01:03:16,760 --> 01:03:19,360
Speaker 1: But but I was like the guy I was ready

1041
01:03:19,480 --> 01:03:22,600
Speaker 1: dare I've always thought that that was my um my

1042
01:03:22,800 --> 01:03:25,880
Speaker 1: job with you two, okay, but what it like working

1043
01:03:25,920 --> 01:03:29,440
Speaker 1: on tracks that you didn't cut, that aren't finished and

1044
01:03:29,720 --> 01:03:33,520
Speaker 1: it was fine? You know. It's like I'm as I say,

1045
01:03:33,640 --> 01:03:37,680
Speaker 1: I'm there's no rules in my book, you know, because

1046
01:03:37,680 --> 01:03:41,920
Speaker 1: I'm never confident enough to to to to have any

1047
01:03:42,000 --> 01:03:47,360
Speaker 1: specific definite as to what I do. I mean, I

1048
01:03:47,760 --> 01:03:51,120
Speaker 1: had this drum sound, you know, in the early eighties,

1049
01:03:51,360 --> 01:03:53,480
Speaker 1: and I used to pretty much try and do this

1050
01:03:53,560 --> 01:03:55,560
Speaker 1: drum sound on all my records until I did an

1051
01:03:55,560 --> 01:03:58,680
Speaker 1: album with Marshall Crenshaw and I did that drum sound

1052
01:03:58,720 --> 01:04:02,920
Speaker 1: and completely fucking in the album, you know. So so

1053
01:04:03,040 --> 01:04:07,000
Speaker 1: I realized that that's not a rule, you know. So

1054
01:04:07,080 --> 01:04:10,240
Speaker 1: I don't have any rules about anything. I just I

1055
01:04:10,440 --> 01:04:13,640
Speaker 1: use something in the back of my you know. I mean,

1056
01:04:13,680 --> 01:04:16,480
Speaker 1: there's a faith I have, you know, even though I

1057
01:04:16,720 --> 01:04:20,800
Speaker 1: have no God God belief, I have a faith in

1058
01:04:20,960 --> 01:04:25,160
Speaker 1: humans and that if me and people get together, we

1059
01:04:25,320 --> 01:04:30,360
Speaker 1: can make something greater than what they can make on

1060
01:04:30,400 --> 01:04:32,160
Speaker 1: their own or what I can make on my own.

1061
01:04:32,720 --> 01:04:37,120
Speaker 1: Just some magic that that that we can come up with. Okay,

1062
01:04:37,120 --> 01:04:40,080
Speaker 1: tell us about the drum sound that that's just a

1063
01:04:40,120 --> 01:04:43,200
Speaker 1: load of you know, it's well with you two, And

1064
01:04:43,200 --> 01:04:46,160
Speaker 1: I'm very proud of this fact that that that Ireland

1065
01:04:46,360 --> 01:04:49,320
Speaker 1: had made rock stars before you too, you know thin

1066
01:04:49,400 --> 01:04:53,600
Speaker 1: Lizzie boomtown Rats, Rory Gallagher and Taste, you know, some

1067
01:04:53,800 --> 01:04:56,760
Speaker 1: very good artists, but they'd all had to they'd all

1068
01:04:56,800 --> 01:04:59,560
Speaker 1: gone to London to make their records. No one had

1069
01:04:59,640 --> 01:05:04,600
Speaker 1: made a rock album in um, in Dublin or in Ireland.

1070
01:05:05,000 --> 01:05:07,680
Speaker 1: And you two wanted to do their first album in Ireland.

1071
01:05:07,680 --> 01:05:11,480
Speaker 1: And and I remember walking into Windmill Lane Studios and

1072
01:05:11,760 --> 01:05:16,240
Speaker 1: in the actual studio area it was made for recording

1073
01:05:16,240 --> 01:05:21,080
Speaker 1: Irish folk music. It was very dead sounding um you know,

1074
01:05:21,080 --> 01:05:23,680
Speaker 1: so if you clip your hands it would you don't

1075
01:05:23,680 --> 01:05:25,960
Speaker 1: hear any echo. There was nothing. It was like not

1076
01:05:26,200 --> 01:05:29,439
Speaker 1: exciting sound and it's shit, I'm not going to get

1077
01:05:29,480 --> 01:05:32,920
Speaker 1: a great sound out of this. But actually when you

1078
01:05:33,000 --> 01:05:36,280
Speaker 1: walk through reception to get into the studio, there was

1079
01:05:36,320 --> 01:05:40,960
Speaker 1: this big area where the receptionists sat with the uh

1080
01:05:41,000 --> 01:05:43,760
Speaker 1: you know, there's no mobile phone so if you wanted

1081
01:05:43,800 --> 01:05:45,920
Speaker 1: to get and there was also winbill Lane was not

1082
01:05:46,000 --> 01:05:49,360
Speaker 1: just a recording studio, it was a video editing thing.

1083
01:05:49,440 --> 01:05:51,480
Speaker 1: There was three floors. The studio was in the in

1084
01:05:51,520 --> 01:05:54,880
Speaker 1: the ground floor, in the basement, so she sat there

1085
01:05:54,880 --> 01:05:56,480
Speaker 1: and the phone calls would come in and she would

1086
01:05:56,720 --> 01:05:59,840
Speaker 1: direct it off to different departments. You know, you remember

1087
01:05:59,840 --> 01:06:05,280
Speaker 1: the states right when when um so and I clapped

1088
01:06:05,280 --> 01:06:07,600
Speaker 1: my hands out there and it sounded like they had

1089
01:06:07,640 --> 01:06:10,280
Speaker 1: these stolen things on the on the waters handed great

1090
01:06:10,360 --> 01:06:12,720
Speaker 1: and I said, oh, so I got the studio manager.

1091
01:06:12,760 --> 01:06:15,280
Speaker 1: I said, look, I'd like to record the drums out here, please,

1092
01:06:15,800 --> 01:06:17,760
Speaker 1: and he looked at me like I was smoking crack

1093
01:06:18,760 --> 01:06:20,760
Speaker 1: and he said, no, this is where the all right, Steve,

1094
01:06:20,880 --> 01:06:23,840
Speaker 1: this is where the you know, tried to bad Irish accent.

1095
01:06:23,920 --> 01:06:26,880
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, this is where the receptionists. I said, well,

1096
01:06:26,920 --> 01:06:29,280
Speaker 1: what time did she go home? And he said, well,

1097
01:06:29,360 --> 01:06:31,960
Speaker 1: she goes home at six o'clock. I said, okay, well

1098
01:06:31,960 --> 01:06:34,439
Speaker 1: we'll set the drums up after six o'clock, at which

1099
01:06:34,480 --> 01:06:37,960
Speaker 1: point I got into trouble with Larry Mullins dad, because

1100
01:06:38,000 --> 01:06:40,440
Speaker 1: Larry was only seventeen and his dad used to come

1101
01:06:40,440 --> 01:06:43,360
Speaker 1: and collect him from the studio every day, so I had,

1102
01:06:43,400 --> 01:06:47,960
Speaker 1: you know, I had to placate his dad. And but

1103
01:06:48,080 --> 01:06:52,040
Speaker 1: we set the drums up outside and they sounded fantastic

1104
01:06:53,000 --> 01:06:56,560
Speaker 1: and and I and I'm very proud that I made

1105
01:06:57,080 --> 01:07:01,000
Speaker 1: this this sort of you know, punk It was sort

1106
01:07:01,040 --> 01:07:04,880
Speaker 1: of punk psychedelic tyme album. But but even then, you

1107
01:07:04,920 --> 01:07:08,800
Speaker 1: know that the Clever Money was not on YouTube. The

1108
01:07:08,920 --> 01:07:12,880
Speaker 1: Clever Money was on Julian Cope with Teardrop explodes. The

1109
01:07:12,960 --> 01:07:15,800
Speaker 1: Clever Money was on Echo and the money Men. You know,

1110
01:07:16,920 --> 01:07:22,880
Speaker 1: no one really put their money on YouTube. But you know,

1111
01:07:23,520 --> 01:07:27,800
Speaker 1: a mixture of of of dedication, a mixture of of

1112
01:07:27,880 --> 01:07:34,760
Speaker 1: mcguinness's vision of seeing the world rather than seeing the

1113
01:07:34,800 --> 01:07:38,400
Speaker 1: front cover of Enemy. I think, you know, to be honest,

1114
01:07:38,440 --> 01:07:41,520
Speaker 1: a lot of these artists once they got you know,

1115
01:07:41,800 --> 01:07:43,960
Speaker 1: for instance, Echo on the Money Men especially, you know,

1116
01:07:44,040 --> 01:07:46,840
Speaker 1: once a one once u their singer had been on

1117
01:07:46,880 --> 01:07:49,240
Speaker 1: the front cover of The Enemy, It's like, hey, I'm

1118
01:07:49,280 --> 01:07:51,600
Speaker 1: the biggest star in the world. You know. It's that,

1119
01:07:51,760 --> 01:07:55,360
Speaker 1: It's that mentality you two have, that sort of you

1120
01:07:55,400 --> 01:07:57,680
Speaker 1: know again had the fear of it. I think they

1121
01:07:57,680 --> 01:08:01,120
Speaker 1: had fear as well, you know, fear is it? Is

1122
01:08:01,160 --> 01:08:04,080
Speaker 1: it great driving force? Is there any you two album,

1123
01:08:04,080 --> 01:08:06,920
Speaker 1: whether the Unforgettable Fire that you didn't work on. I

1124
01:08:06,960 --> 01:08:10,920
Speaker 1: didn't work on Pop, I didn't work on one of

1125
01:08:11,000 --> 01:08:15,080
Speaker 1: the songs of something or other, They all they will

1126
01:08:15,160 --> 01:08:17,400
Speaker 1: mix up to me, Roy Roy, Roy Ray, So what

1127
01:08:17,439 --> 01:08:19,559
Speaker 1: did you What do you do? Because my other favorite

1128
01:08:19,560 --> 01:08:21,759
Speaker 1: is like Couldn't Baby, which is really on many levels

1129
01:08:21,760 --> 01:08:24,560
Speaker 1: of left field record from what came before? What do

1130
01:08:24,640 --> 01:08:27,040
Speaker 1: you do on that? I worked on? Oh god, my

1131
01:08:27,160 --> 01:08:30,200
Speaker 1: least favorite of all you two songs is Who's going

1132
01:08:30,240 --> 01:08:33,800
Speaker 1: to Ride Your fucking Wild Horses? I'll tell you the

1133
01:08:33,800 --> 01:08:37,000
Speaker 1: great story about that. Apparently, you know, they've had Joshua

1134
01:08:37,080 --> 01:08:40,760
Speaker 1: Tree and act on Baby and it was very successful.

1135
01:08:40,800 --> 01:08:43,599
Speaker 1: So it seemed like and they were still having trouble

1136
01:08:43,680 --> 01:08:46,880
Speaker 1: with acting Baby, similar thing, you know, to you know,

1137
01:08:46,960 --> 01:08:49,879
Speaker 1: eighteen months into recording. Oh my god, it's not finished.

1138
01:08:50,080 --> 01:08:52,559
Speaker 1: What can we do? We have to you know, one thing,

1139
01:08:52,600 --> 01:08:55,720
Speaker 1: it was like, it couldn't be anything like Joshua Tree.

1140
01:08:56,000 --> 01:08:58,280
Speaker 1: The idea was, you know, it had to be a

1141
01:08:58,280 --> 01:09:00,639
Speaker 1: complete you know, Bollo said this, we had to chop

1142
01:09:00,720 --> 01:09:04,439
Speaker 1: down the Joshua Tree. Very melodramatic, but you know, the

1143
01:09:04,520 --> 01:09:06,559
Speaker 1: idea was, we had to make a record that was

1144
01:09:06,600 --> 01:09:11,400
Speaker 1: not that was not like the Joshua Tree. And so

1145
01:09:11,479 --> 01:09:14,360
Speaker 1: I got invited in again to come and do my

1146
01:09:14,520 --> 01:09:17,720
Speaker 1: thing to the Redder. Dare come and pull it in,

1147
01:09:17,880 --> 01:09:20,960
Speaker 1: come and finish off the the important songs, you know.

1148
01:09:21,600 --> 01:09:26,800
Speaker 1: So I did even better than the Real Thing, Yeah,

1149
01:09:26,880 --> 01:09:28,840
Speaker 1: which is a great song. I love that song. But

1150
01:09:28,920 --> 01:09:31,240
Speaker 1: I was given Who's going to Ride Your Wild Horses?

1151
01:09:31,400 --> 01:09:35,840
Speaker 1: And and I have to say I I worked a

1152
01:09:35,920 --> 01:09:41,360
Speaker 1: month on that song, and I and I there's not

1153
01:09:41,479 --> 01:09:44,600
Speaker 1: very many songs that I twitch when I hear, you know,

1154
01:09:44,720 --> 01:09:48,240
Speaker 1: like you can see me. But the listener, if they're

1155
01:09:48,240 --> 01:09:50,800
Speaker 1: still listening, they've probably gone by now this one. And

1156
01:09:50,800 --> 01:09:55,120
Speaker 1: I'll believe they're riveted. Oh maybe they're not. Um, yeah,

1157
01:09:55,160 --> 01:09:58,479
Speaker 1: I would. I would twitch when when I still do

1158
01:09:58,520 --> 01:10:01,719
Speaker 1: whenever I hear it, because you know, for me production wise.

1159
01:10:02,040 --> 01:10:04,960
Speaker 1: But but but let me go back. The reason there

1160
01:10:05,040 --> 01:10:07,519
Speaker 1: was so much emphasis on that song was that they

1161
01:10:07,520 --> 01:10:10,160
Speaker 1: were having a meeting with Jimmy Irvine and they were

1162
01:10:10,200 --> 01:10:14,360
Speaker 1: playing rough mixes of Acting Baby, and like Jimmy, Jimmy

1163
01:10:14,479 --> 01:10:17,439
Speaker 1: was just a friend, you know, I don't I don't

1164
01:10:17,479 --> 01:10:20,080
Speaker 1: think he was there, or maybe he was their their

1165
01:10:20,160 --> 01:10:22,639
Speaker 1: A and R guy at the time, But anyway, they

1166
01:10:22,640 --> 01:10:25,040
Speaker 1: were meeting with Jimmy Irvine and and he was like,

1167
01:10:25,120 --> 01:10:29,160
Speaker 1: you know, confused because you two had become a rock

1168
01:10:29,280 --> 01:10:33,000
Speaker 1: band and that in America at the time was considered

1169
01:10:33,040 --> 01:10:37,760
Speaker 1: the most, um the greatest thing. They had no problem

1170
01:10:37,800 --> 01:10:40,240
Speaker 1: with rock bands. YouTube always had a problem being a

1171
01:10:40,320 --> 01:10:42,720
Speaker 1: rock band, you know. They didn't want to be a

1172
01:10:42,840 --> 01:10:45,759
Speaker 1: rock band. They wanted to to be an arts band,

1173
01:10:46,320 --> 01:10:49,680
Speaker 1: you know. So um So, Jimmy, I think was a

1174
01:10:49,680 --> 01:10:52,759
Speaker 1: little bit confused. I think when he heard Acting Baby

1175
01:10:53,040 --> 01:10:55,799
Speaker 1: until and they were they were listening to the songs

1176
01:10:55,880 --> 01:10:59,120
Speaker 1: and and they were talking about this new thing called

1177
01:10:59,160 --> 01:11:03,559
Speaker 1: house music. Right, And as they were talking about house music,

1178
01:11:03,880 --> 01:11:06,360
Speaker 1: Who's going to Ride Your Wild Horses? Came on the

1179
01:11:06,400 --> 01:11:10,680
Speaker 1: stereo and you guys, hey, yeah, that's some hart of

1180
01:11:10,720 --> 01:11:14,880
Speaker 1: the music. That's fucking house music. You can buy a

1181
01:11:14,920 --> 01:11:17,640
Speaker 1: new fucking house with that song, you know. So it

1182
01:11:17,720 --> 01:11:20,840
Speaker 1: had got the blessing of Jimmy Irvy because it was

1183
01:11:21,040 --> 01:11:23,840
Speaker 1: a house music, meaning you could buy a new house

1184
01:11:23,880 --> 01:11:27,920
Speaker 1: with that right as opposed to Manchester. Okay, that record

1185
01:11:28,000 --> 01:11:32,120
Speaker 1: was famously cut in Berlin. Does location effect the recording? Okay,

1186
01:11:32,200 --> 01:11:36,720
Speaker 1: that record was not cutting Berlin, of that record was

1187
01:11:36,800 --> 01:11:39,760
Speaker 1: cut back in Dublin. But the idea, and this is

1188
01:11:39,800 --> 01:11:43,880
Speaker 1: where you too succeed for me, is when they have

1189
01:11:44,120 --> 01:11:48,160
Speaker 1: a big idea, the big idea of the Joshua Tree

1190
01:11:48,400 --> 01:11:52,960
Speaker 1: was the desert, and I think that you feel that

1191
01:11:53,040 --> 01:11:55,599
Speaker 1: when you hear that album. The big idea for Acting

1192
01:11:55,720 --> 01:11:58,679
Speaker 1: Baby was Eastern Europe. They sort of stole it from

1193
01:11:58,680 --> 01:12:01,200
Speaker 1: Bowie and you know, but that's okay. That was the

1194
01:12:01,240 --> 01:12:05,360
Speaker 1: big idea for that album. The big idea for Um

1195
01:12:06,160 --> 01:12:10,480
Speaker 1: All that you Can't Leave Behind was retrospection. They absolutely

1196
01:12:10,520 --> 01:12:14,679
Speaker 1: managed to get that right. You know. Now, some big

1197
01:12:14,720 --> 01:12:19,240
Speaker 1: ideas don't work, you know. The big idea for No

1198
01:12:19,400 --> 01:12:24,360
Speaker 1: Line on the Horizon was North Africa, was belly Dancers,

1199
01:12:24,520 --> 01:12:28,639
Speaker 1: was hookers. They went to North Africa to record the album.

1200
01:12:28,800 --> 01:12:32,680
Speaker 1: None of that is you know, they were chasing a

1201
01:12:32,760 --> 01:12:36,479
Speaker 1: hit instead of keeping to their big idea, you know,

1202
01:12:36,960 --> 01:12:39,439
Speaker 1: the big idea when they when they get it right,

1203
01:12:39,920 --> 01:12:44,200
Speaker 1: they nail it. Okay, let's just go back to the

1204
01:12:44,240 --> 01:12:47,679
Speaker 1: drum sound. I think he said, let's just load back

1205
01:12:48,040 --> 01:12:53,439
Speaker 1: more times with me than everything my talk to with Crenshaw.

1206
01:12:53,520 --> 01:12:57,120
Speaker 1: What was the specific drum sound you use that clap

1207
01:12:57,240 --> 01:13:01,840
Speaker 1: brings up. Oh, well, he had his first album where

1208
01:13:01,880 --> 01:13:06,720
Speaker 1: he was considered you know, like Buddy Holly with the Glasses,

1209
01:13:07,040 --> 01:13:09,840
Speaker 1: and it was all there for his second album. You

1210
01:13:09,840 --> 01:13:13,040
Speaker 1: know that the album I did was called field Day,

1211
01:13:13,160 --> 01:13:17,880
Speaker 1: and I basically recorded I mean, I just put this

1212
01:13:18,040 --> 01:13:23,760
Speaker 1: really big ambiance sort of sound on it. And and

1213
01:13:23,840 --> 01:13:29,519
Speaker 1: he will still he he will defend that album. And

1214
01:13:29,720 --> 01:13:32,760
Speaker 1: subsequently I've had people say to me, oh, that's a

1215
01:13:32,800 --> 01:13:34,920
Speaker 1: special little gem that album. I don't know if you've

1216
01:13:34,960 --> 01:13:39,280
Speaker 1: ever heard it called field all right, Well, the song

1217
01:13:40,479 --> 01:13:43,120
Speaker 1: if ever You're on my Mind, whenever You're Whenever You're

1218
01:13:43,160 --> 01:13:46,720
Speaker 1: on my mind. Yeah, it's got a great sound, like exactly.

1219
01:13:47,040 --> 01:13:51,240
Speaker 1: But at the time I think people were slightly confused

1220
01:13:51,320 --> 01:13:54,720
Speaker 1: by the sound because they expected Marshall Grenshaw to come

1221
01:13:54,720 --> 01:13:59,920
Speaker 1: out sounding a lot less sort of cluttery. Maybe you're

1222
01:14:00,000 --> 01:14:04,080
Speaker 1: something I don't know if cluttery is a word. Sticky.

1223
01:14:04,120 --> 01:14:06,519
Speaker 1: Sticking with the drum sound, though, legend has it that

1224
01:14:06,560 --> 01:14:09,160
Speaker 1: you invented the gated drum sound. Is that true? Would

1225
01:14:09,160 --> 01:14:13,360
Speaker 1: you agree with? Well, I I certainly can lay claim

1226
01:14:13,439 --> 01:14:16,680
Speaker 1: to that, even though you know that it was a

1227
01:14:16,720 --> 01:14:19,559
Speaker 1: team effort like anything. You know, I only work as

1228
01:14:19,560 --> 01:14:22,240
Speaker 1: a team. I'm not you know, I've said this all along.

1229
01:14:22,640 --> 01:14:26,680
Speaker 1: You know, team efforts are what what I believe in.

1230
01:14:26,920 --> 01:14:33,400
Speaker 1: And yes, I it was certainly refined on the on

1231
01:14:33,520 --> 01:14:36,599
Speaker 1: the Pieter Gabriel album. But a lot of people call

1232
01:14:36,640 --> 01:14:40,480
Speaker 1: it gated reverb. It's actually just it's a gated ambience.

1233
01:14:40,960 --> 01:14:43,200
Speaker 1: I don't think I've ever used a gated reverb on

1234
01:14:43,320 --> 01:14:46,240
Speaker 1: anything in my life. I use a natural sound of

1235
01:14:46,240 --> 01:14:49,120
Speaker 1: a room, and I gate that. But you know, no

1236
01:14:49,120 --> 01:14:51,120
Speaker 1: one wants to hear technical stuff. They want to hear

1237
01:14:51,160 --> 01:14:54,280
Speaker 1: stories of drug taking with Keith. Okay, okay, so speaking

1238
01:14:54,280 --> 01:14:55,720
Speaker 1: and so tell us the story of working with the

1239
01:14:55,760 --> 01:14:59,120
Speaker 1: story of the Stones. Well, you know, basically, a real

1240
01:14:59,200 --> 01:15:02,320
Speaker 1: man never turns down the rolling stones, you know, And

1241
01:15:02,680 --> 01:15:05,439
Speaker 1: back in those days, I considered myself a real man,

1242
01:15:05,600 --> 01:15:09,200
Speaker 1: even though I knew the moment I got in there

1243
01:15:09,200 --> 01:15:16,200
Speaker 1: and I heard and well, okay, they they they auditioned

1244
01:15:16,840 --> 01:15:21,160
Speaker 1: a handful of producers. Basically, I think Mick Jagger called

1245
01:15:21,240 --> 01:15:23,840
Speaker 1: up this is how I heard the story, called up

1246
01:15:23,880 --> 01:15:27,519
Speaker 1: Elton John and said, who is there? We need a producer.

1247
01:15:28,160 --> 01:15:30,200
Speaker 1: You know, there's there's there's a lot of tension in

1248
01:15:30,240 --> 01:15:32,439
Speaker 1: the studio at the moment. We need someone to diffuse

1249
01:15:32,479 --> 01:15:34,920
Speaker 1: the situation, you know. And I'll tell you why there

1250
01:15:35,000 --> 01:15:38,000
Speaker 1: was tension when I get to it. We need to

1251
01:15:38,040 --> 01:15:42,320
Speaker 1: diffuse the situation. Who is there? And Elton John, who

1252
01:15:42,479 --> 01:15:46,240
Speaker 1: you probably know still gets the top ten every week.

1253
01:15:45,680 --> 01:15:49,680
Speaker 1: He's an absolute because he's you know, the great thing

1254
01:15:49,680 --> 01:15:52,120
Speaker 1: about Elders that he's never written a lyric in his life,

1255
01:15:52,320 --> 01:15:56,799
Speaker 1: so he never feels like anyone is his competition because

1256
01:15:57,120 --> 01:16:01,880
Speaker 1: he's just a fan, you know, because really, a lyric

1257
01:16:01,920 --> 01:16:04,720
Speaker 1: writer is the one who shows their dirty underwear. No

1258
01:16:04,760 --> 01:16:07,599
Speaker 1: one else shows their dirty underwear, right, it's a lyric

1259
01:16:07,640 --> 01:16:11,080
Speaker 1: writer who shows their dirty fucking underwear. So Elton is

1260
01:16:11,120 --> 01:16:15,280
Speaker 1: completely oh, listen to anyone's lyrics because I have nothing,

1261
01:16:15,640 --> 01:16:18,040
Speaker 1: you know, I will never think something. There's no Carton,

1262
01:16:18,080 --> 01:16:20,519
Speaker 1: will never think anyone's lyrics are better than mine. So

1263
01:16:22,160 --> 01:16:25,280
Speaker 1: Elton said, well, there's this guy, you know, Steve Lillywhite.

1264
01:16:25,360 --> 01:16:27,200
Speaker 1: I like the sound of him. And there's so and so,

1265
01:16:27,320 --> 01:16:32,320
Speaker 1: and then said so I went and and the audition

1266
01:16:32,439 --> 01:16:34,400
Speaker 1: was to hang out with the Stones in Paris for

1267
01:16:34,439 --> 01:16:38,120
Speaker 1: the night, you know, in the studio, so they were

1268
01:16:38,160 --> 01:16:40,720
Speaker 1: working only you know, no one got the studio till

1269
01:16:40,760 --> 01:16:44,799
Speaker 1: about one in the morning, you know. So I remember meeting.

1270
01:16:45,880 --> 01:16:49,320
Speaker 1: When I arrived for my session, it was just as

1271
01:16:49,360 --> 01:16:51,800
Speaker 1: Rupert Hein was leaving. Who's a mate who was a

1272
01:16:51,880 --> 01:16:55,960
Speaker 1: mate of mine and lovely rightly man. And I hear

1273
01:16:56,000 --> 01:16:58,200
Speaker 1: from his widow. Yeah, probably I used to. I used

1274
01:16:58,240 --> 01:16:59,560
Speaker 1: to hear from him, but now I hear from the

1275
01:16:59,560 --> 01:17:03,320
Speaker 1: widow and he um, he's one of the He was

1276
01:17:03,360 --> 01:17:05,080
Speaker 1: one of the nicest guys. I don't think he would

1277
01:17:05,120 --> 01:17:09,040
Speaker 1: have lasted with not right for stones. But but I

1278
01:17:09,400 --> 01:17:13,360
Speaker 1: somehow managed to get the job, you know. And but

1279
01:17:13,360 --> 01:17:16,480
Speaker 1: but from from the moment I walked in, I realized

1280
01:17:16,840 --> 01:17:20,240
Speaker 1: when where you know, it was just after Nick's first

1281
01:17:20,240 --> 01:17:23,320
Speaker 1: solo album had been released, and you know, which was

1282
01:17:23,439 --> 01:17:28,640
Speaker 1: affectionately known as that fucking disco album by all in

1283
01:17:28,680 --> 01:17:31,559
Speaker 1: the studio. So I thought, oh, oh, now I know

1284
01:17:31,760 --> 01:17:34,599
Speaker 1: why they need to They want someone else to an

1285
01:17:34,720 --> 01:17:40,479
Speaker 1: arbitrator at least, you know. So I um, so my

1286
01:17:40,600 --> 01:17:44,439
Speaker 1: job was as much Henry Kissinger, you know, because I

1287
01:17:44,439 --> 01:17:46,400
Speaker 1: would have Mick going go and tell it because they

1288
01:17:46,439 --> 01:17:49,600
Speaker 1: never spoke to each other. Literally, they didn't speak, you know,

1289
01:17:49,640 --> 01:17:51,800
Speaker 1: even when they were out jamming, and they would jam

1290
01:17:51,840 --> 01:17:56,479
Speaker 1: a lot, and and you know, but I mean we

1291
01:17:56,560 --> 01:17:59,640
Speaker 1: did Harlem Shuffle, which was okay, I mean it was

1292
01:17:59,640 --> 01:18:01,679
Speaker 1: a cover version of an old Bob and our song

1293
01:18:02,280 --> 01:18:04,760
Speaker 1: we did. I mean, there was a song called one

1294
01:18:04,840 --> 01:18:07,599
Speaker 1: hit to the Body that was acceptable, but it wasn't

1295
01:18:07,600 --> 01:18:10,240
Speaker 1: a great album. They never toured it. And I always

1296
01:18:10,280 --> 01:18:13,880
Speaker 1: said I did the worst Rolling Stones album ever until

1297
01:18:14,000 --> 01:18:21,600
Speaker 1: the next one. You know, I don't I I you

1298
01:18:21,640 --> 01:18:26,000
Speaker 1: know they but you know, the Rolling Stones were, yeah,

1299
01:18:26,800 --> 01:18:28,599
Speaker 1: hey that I don't put them in one of my

1300
01:18:28,800 --> 01:18:31,760
Speaker 1: greatest bands. I think they you know, they were a

1301
01:18:31,800 --> 01:18:34,439
Speaker 1: great blues band, but I don't, you know. And they

1302
01:18:34,439 --> 01:18:37,280
Speaker 1: were very true to the roots, you know. I mean

1303
01:18:37,960 --> 01:18:41,360
Speaker 1: Keith richards Is is like as faithful to his music

1304
01:18:41,360 --> 01:18:44,040
Speaker 1: as he is to his wife, you know, And that's

1305
01:18:44,080 --> 01:18:46,720
Speaker 1: a very honorable that's a very honorable thing. Tell me

1306
01:18:46,800 --> 01:18:49,800
Speaker 1: the story of doing the Times and Twins in the

1307
01:18:49,920 --> 01:18:52,280
Speaker 1: Name of Love. I'm a huge Times and Twins fan,

1308
01:18:52,800 --> 01:18:56,200
Speaker 1: and I remember hearing that radio immediately had to buy it.

1309
01:18:56,360 --> 01:19:01,120
Speaker 1: And it doesn't really sound like they're big records thereaft No,

1310
01:19:01,320 --> 01:19:03,760
Speaker 1: it doesn't. And it doesn't sound like what they were

1311
01:19:03,800 --> 01:19:07,519
Speaker 1: like before that as well, because um I spoke to

1312
01:19:07,520 --> 01:19:10,040
Speaker 1: Tom Bailey the other day actually he was in in

1313
01:19:10,320 --> 01:19:14,320
Speaker 1: quarantine in Auckland. He's such a lovely man, such absolutely

1314
01:19:14,520 --> 01:19:17,320
Speaker 1: lovely man. Um. Because you know, as you get older,

1315
01:19:17,320 --> 01:19:19,799
Speaker 1: you realize that if you don't speak to various people,

1316
01:19:20,160 --> 01:19:23,880
Speaker 1: you probably will never speak to them again. Because listen,

1317
01:19:23,960 --> 01:19:28,400
Speaker 1: when our contemporaries are dying, it is so strange. Uh.

1318
01:19:28,640 --> 01:19:30,200
Speaker 1: You know, when you can see if the end is

1319
01:19:30,200 --> 01:19:32,120
Speaker 1: in sight, you say, well, what do I want to comment?

1320
01:19:32,200 --> 01:19:34,120
Speaker 1: I was talking to my shrink today. It's like I

1321
01:19:34,160 --> 01:19:37,040
Speaker 1: can't read every book. I can't watch every movie, can't

1322
01:19:37,080 --> 01:19:39,240
Speaker 1: listen every record. I have to choose it. It It makes

1323
01:19:39,240 --> 01:19:41,400
Speaker 1: me crazy. Before he said, I'll get to it. I'll

1324
01:19:41,400 --> 01:19:44,160
Speaker 1: get to it. No, I'm never gonna get to it. No, Well,

1325
01:19:44,280 --> 01:19:46,800
Speaker 1: I I don't care about I'd much rather be I'm

1326
01:19:46,840 --> 01:19:48,639
Speaker 1: a people person. So I just want to make sure

1327
01:19:48,680 --> 01:19:51,759
Speaker 1: that I get to speak to my old friends because

1328
01:19:52,200 --> 01:19:54,840
Speaker 1: you know, I know there's going to be a point

1329
01:19:54,880 --> 01:19:57,920
Speaker 1: where it's like, oh wait, maybe it's me. You know,

1330
01:19:57,960 --> 01:20:02,719
Speaker 1: who's the next one to go? You know, m absolutely so. Anyway,

1331
01:20:02,760 --> 01:20:04,920
Speaker 1: in the name in the name of Okay. So, before

1332
01:20:05,000 --> 01:20:07,360
Speaker 1: that song, the Thompson Twins were a sort of rag

1333
01:20:07,400 --> 01:20:11,559
Speaker 1: tag and tale hippie dippy band, six piece, seven piece

1334
01:20:11,600 --> 01:20:18,559
Speaker 1: band who played sort of psychedelic long pieces, you know,

1335
01:20:19,280 --> 01:20:23,479
Speaker 1: And we were doing the album in Rack studios in London,

1336
01:20:24,479 --> 01:20:27,320
Speaker 1: and it was an okay album It wasn't great, but

1337
01:20:27,479 --> 01:20:30,920
Speaker 1: it was at the very end of that album um

1338
01:20:31,160 --> 01:20:34,280
Speaker 1: and this Rat Studios was owned by Mickey Most who

1339
01:20:34,400 --> 01:20:39,760
Speaker 1: was like a legendary British producer and he um and

1340
01:20:39,840 --> 01:20:45,160
Speaker 1: he just took uh. He bought this new thing called

1341
01:20:45,360 --> 01:20:47,920
Speaker 1: this new drum machine called a movement drum machine, and

1342
01:20:47,920 --> 01:20:51,320
Speaker 1: it was put in the studio. Tom suddenly started playing

1343
01:20:51,360 --> 01:20:55,400
Speaker 1: it and got this immediate like rush of creativity. And

1344
01:20:55,439 --> 01:20:59,559
Speaker 1: of course, you know, for me as a producer, it

1345
01:20:59,680 --> 01:21:02,320
Speaker 1: was not like, oh it is I said great, you know,

1346
01:21:02,400 --> 01:21:05,840
Speaker 1: because that's where the enthusiasm comes in. You see someone

1347
01:21:05,920 --> 01:21:09,120
Speaker 1: being creative, you have to push them because you never

1348
01:21:09,200 --> 01:21:11,640
Speaker 1: know when they're not going to be creative, you know.

1349
01:21:11,680 --> 01:21:14,720
Speaker 1: So when they're being creative, my job is to is

1350
01:21:14,760 --> 01:21:19,320
Speaker 1: to to make sure everything is going well. So he

1351
01:21:19,439 --> 01:21:22,479
Speaker 1: started doing the drumbeat and then started you know, and

1352
01:21:22,560 --> 01:21:24,559
Speaker 1: he wrote the song there on the drum machine, and

1353
01:21:24,560 --> 01:21:28,120
Speaker 1: we did it and you know, and and and it

1354
01:21:28,280 --> 01:21:30,720
Speaker 1: was so different from the rest of the album. And

1355
01:21:31,000 --> 01:21:33,240
Speaker 1: I still think it's the only song I've ever had

1356
01:21:33,240 --> 01:21:36,320
Speaker 1: in the dance charts because in general, I didn't pick

1357
01:21:36,360 --> 01:21:38,280
Speaker 1: records with drum machines, and I you know, I much

1358
01:21:38,280 --> 01:21:41,800
Speaker 1: prefer a real drummer. But Tom's enthusiasm was so great.

1359
01:21:41,880 --> 01:21:44,559
Speaker 1: And when we made this record, and of course then

1360
01:21:45,240 --> 01:21:48,439
Speaker 1: you know they went on and and and and carried on.

1361
01:21:49,160 --> 01:21:54,120
Speaker 1: But but but you know it wasn't you know that

1362
01:21:54,240 --> 01:21:58,840
Speaker 1: that their music subsequently was not necessarily my style? You know,

1363
01:21:58,960 --> 01:22:02,360
Speaker 1: I loved because you know, I would not say anything

1364
01:22:02,360 --> 01:22:04,439
Speaker 1: bad about it, because you know, when you know someone,

1365
01:22:04,520 --> 01:22:07,120
Speaker 1: you give them the benefits of the doubt for their art.

1366
01:22:07,360 --> 01:22:12,360
Speaker 1: Of course, you know. Okay, okay, since you mentioned rack, Hey,

1367
01:22:12,760 --> 01:22:15,640
Speaker 1: does the studio make a difference? Be do you have

1368
01:22:15,720 --> 01:22:18,799
Speaker 1: a preferred studio? Three? Would you rather have the band

1369
01:22:18,800 --> 01:22:22,200
Speaker 1: live in their hometown or to relocate to make the rest? Oh?

1370
01:22:22,240 --> 01:22:24,680
Speaker 1: My god? Ay do I have a favorite studio? Well,

1371
01:22:24,680 --> 01:22:29,439
Speaker 1: in those days, the two prerequisits three prerequisites. One was

1372
01:22:29,520 --> 01:22:33,400
Speaker 1: that it was near where I lived, because I needed

1373
01:22:33,439 --> 01:22:36,799
Speaker 1: to get there. Two, I liked a good live area

1374
01:22:36,880 --> 01:22:40,160
Speaker 1: where I could if I wanted to, or some of

1375
01:22:40,200 --> 01:22:42,920
Speaker 1: the times where I always did make that drum sound.

1376
01:22:43,800 --> 01:22:46,160
Speaker 1: And three they had to have a table tennis table.

1377
01:22:47,800 --> 01:22:49,920
Speaker 1: Are you a good pink plank player? You know what

1378
01:22:50,080 --> 01:22:52,200
Speaker 1: I picked up about yesterday for the first time in

1379
01:22:52,240 --> 01:22:55,080
Speaker 1: about three years and I was useless, so I can't say,

1380
01:22:55,160 --> 01:22:57,360
Speaker 1: but I had the skills in those wis do you

1381
01:22:57,439 --> 01:23:00,160
Speaker 1: do you know that the big thing in Russian now

1382
01:23:00,280 --> 01:23:03,000
Speaker 1: and it spread around the world, is betting on people

1383
01:23:03,080 --> 01:23:05,800
Speaker 1: playing table tennis table you see, I called it table

1384
01:23:05,800 --> 01:23:09,360
Speaker 1: tennis rather than pin point. But as I said, I

1385
01:23:09,400 --> 01:23:12,559
Speaker 1: couldn't believe this. These are not star players. But there's

1386
01:23:12,560 --> 01:23:14,800
Speaker 1: a whole thing. You watch it on YouTube. Your bet

1387
01:23:15,040 --> 01:23:19,599
Speaker 1: it's crazy. So anyway you want a table tennis that, honestly, literally,

1388
01:23:19,640 --> 01:23:22,519
Speaker 1: those are the three things U would I take a

1389
01:23:22,600 --> 01:23:28,880
Speaker 1: band look with U? I always said. With the first

1390
01:23:28,960 --> 01:23:34,160
Speaker 1: three Dave Matthews albums I did, we recorded them. We

1391
01:23:34,160 --> 01:23:36,679
Speaker 1: we went away to record them, you know, the first

1392
01:23:36,720 --> 01:23:39,800
Speaker 1: two in Bearsville in upstate New York and the third

1393
01:23:39,840 --> 01:23:44,280
Speaker 1: one at the plant in in Sorcelita. Now this was

1394
01:23:44,320 --> 01:23:46,840
Speaker 1: great because we we went there for a specific time

1395
01:23:46,880 --> 01:23:50,800
Speaker 1: to make the album and we and it was great.

1396
01:23:50,840 --> 01:23:55,040
Speaker 1: Now for the fourth album, they wanted me back, They said, Steve,

1397
01:23:55,080 --> 01:23:57,200
Speaker 1: we want to do this album. We built our own

1398
01:23:57,240 --> 01:24:01,759
Speaker 1: studio in Charlottesville. I said, okay, but let me warn

1399
01:24:01,800 --> 01:24:06,520
Speaker 1: you from my experience, it will it will go from

1400
01:24:06,560 --> 01:24:11,760
Speaker 1: making an album to going to work. Big difference when

1401
01:24:11,800 --> 01:24:14,240
Speaker 1: you're making an album because you're away from your home,

1402
01:24:14,640 --> 01:24:18,160
Speaker 1: you're somewhere else and you're making an album. If you're

1403
01:24:18,200 --> 01:24:20,760
Speaker 1: living in your home and you have a studio in

1404
01:24:20,800 --> 01:24:23,320
Speaker 1: your hometown, you are not making an album. You are

1405
01:24:23,400 --> 01:24:27,479
Speaker 1: going to work. And of course when you're going to work,

1406
01:24:28,880 --> 01:24:31,400
Speaker 1: you can start complaining about it. And all of a sudden,

1407
01:24:31,800 --> 01:24:34,200
Speaker 1: the band members started, you know, there was it was

1408
01:24:34,280 --> 01:24:36,800
Speaker 1: going on longer, and I warned them, this album will

1409
01:24:36,840 --> 01:24:39,800
Speaker 1: take longer because you are in your hometown. You have

1410
01:24:39,960 --> 01:24:43,360
Speaker 1: other things going on in your life. And and of

1411
01:24:43,400 --> 01:24:48,799
Speaker 1: course I you know, I got fired. My rough mixes

1412
01:24:48,840 --> 01:24:52,800
Speaker 1: went on to Napster. At the height of Napster, it's

1413
01:24:52,800 --> 01:24:55,800
Speaker 1: still the most downloaded bootleg album in history, called the

1414
01:24:55,840 --> 01:24:58,479
Speaker 1: Lily White Sessions. You know, I always say I got

1415
01:24:58,560 --> 01:25:02,160
Speaker 1: heartfully aware of this from I downloaded these, the fact

1416
01:25:02,200 --> 01:25:07,920
Speaker 1: that they ultimately went to uh, Greg Glenn Ballard. Do

1417
01:25:08,000 --> 01:25:11,120
Speaker 1: you give a ship that your stuff, you know, wasn't

1418
01:25:11,160 --> 01:25:13,080
Speaker 1: releasing that time? You say here that to business. No,

1419
01:25:13,320 --> 01:25:15,760
Speaker 1: I got all the kudos and none of the cash.

1420
01:25:15,840 --> 01:25:17,840
Speaker 1: And at the end of the day, you know, when

1421
01:25:17,880 --> 01:25:21,800
Speaker 1: I die, I'm a legend in that world. And you know,

1422
01:25:21,840 --> 01:25:24,479
Speaker 1: I know that's that sounds very arrogant, doesn't it. But

1423
01:25:24,760 --> 01:25:27,599
Speaker 1: you know I got that band. You know, Glenn Ballard

1424
01:25:27,680 --> 01:25:31,320
Speaker 1: just wanted to make pop record and that's fine, you know,

1425
01:25:31,840 --> 01:25:37,680
Speaker 1: but um but I'm glad that that my album has

1426
01:25:37,720 --> 01:25:42,160
Speaker 1: been validated. That that that because because I did a lot,

1427
01:25:42,720 --> 01:25:45,880
Speaker 1: you know, with Dave Matthews band. They would I would

1428
01:25:45,920 --> 01:25:48,360
Speaker 1: allow them just to play and I would do everything else.

1429
01:25:48,439 --> 01:25:51,640
Speaker 1: I would edit, I would make them, you know, I

1430
01:25:52,520 --> 01:25:56,760
Speaker 1: you know, but that's look, I I did very well

1431
01:25:56,800 --> 01:26:02,360
Speaker 1: from them, and you know, but I don't feel that

1432
01:26:02,479 --> 01:26:05,880
Speaker 1: connection with them like I do with you know, with

1433
01:26:05,960 --> 01:26:08,000
Speaker 1: you two. You know, I got you know when when

1434
01:26:08,040 --> 01:26:10,920
Speaker 1: when when I meet them, it's hugs and like hey

1435
01:26:10,960 --> 01:26:13,080
Speaker 1: hey hey, you know, with with them, it's it's not

1436
01:26:13,400 --> 01:26:19,280
Speaker 1: such a lovely inning. But that's life. Okay. Let's talk

1437
01:26:19,320 --> 01:26:23,880
Speaker 1: about the money. Traditionally, a producer gets a fee and

1438
01:26:23,920 --> 01:26:27,559
Speaker 1: hopefully you get royalties from record one. You gotta earn

1439
01:26:27,640 --> 01:26:30,240
Speaker 1: back whatever you've been paid. How has it worked out

1440
01:26:30,280 --> 01:26:32,960
Speaker 1: for you financially? Have you gotten the money you deserve?

1441
01:26:33,000 --> 01:26:35,439
Speaker 1: Are you stay you're still fighting for their money? Well,

1442
01:26:35,560 --> 01:26:39,759
Speaker 1: you get a fee, you get an advance against a royalty,

1443
01:26:40,960 --> 01:26:43,240
Speaker 1: meaning that yeah, you get paid from record one if

1444
01:26:43,240 --> 01:26:45,639
Speaker 1: you're very if you if you have that in your contract,

1445
01:26:45,640 --> 01:26:48,320
Speaker 1: whereas sometimes the artists don't get paid from record one

1446
01:26:48,360 --> 01:26:50,920
Speaker 1: because they have a big advance that they need to

1447
01:26:51,120 --> 01:26:55,160
Speaker 1: pay back, you know. But yeah, I mean I I

1448
01:26:55,240 --> 01:26:59,800
Speaker 1: had my my very early records. I didn't get very

1449
01:26:59,880 --> 01:27:02,880
Speaker 1: much because you sort of it's more about I want

1450
01:27:02,880 --> 01:27:06,800
Speaker 1: to do it rather than you know, you know, you

1451
01:27:06,840 --> 01:27:08,920
Speaker 1: have to give to get, you know, in that way.

1452
01:27:08,960 --> 01:27:12,320
Speaker 1: But but also a lot of those um, those early

1453
01:27:12,720 --> 01:27:16,719
Speaker 1: certainly those early virgin contracts, I don't know. I think

1454
01:27:16,960 --> 01:27:21,959
Speaker 1: they were very artists unfriendly because you know, Andy Partridge

1455
01:27:22,000 --> 01:27:25,000
Speaker 1: one of the most talented guys I've ever worked with.

1456
01:27:26,160 --> 01:27:28,800
Speaker 1: Just you know, he's up there with with we need

1457
01:27:28,960 --> 01:27:33,000
Speaker 1: just so intricate, such fantastic. You know, he hasn't got

1458
01:27:33,080 --> 01:27:36,040
Speaker 1: what he's deserved, you know. And that sort of rubbed

1459
01:27:36,080 --> 01:27:39,960
Speaker 1: off on my money as well from that, so you know,

1460
01:27:40,080 --> 01:27:42,880
Speaker 1: it's but no, I've I've made a great living. I don't.

1461
01:27:43,000 --> 01:27:45,760
Speaker 1: For me, it's not about money. It's about what you

1462
01:27:45,840 --> 01:27:48,160
Speaker 1: leave behind them. And you can only spend so much

1463
01:27:48,880 --> 01:27:50,960
Speaker 1: and what do you what do you do? Did you

1464
01:27:50,960 --> 01:27:52,600
Speaker 1: blow your money or you have it, what do you

1465
01:27:52,640 --> 01:27:56,120
Speaker 1: do with the money? Oh? Look, for some reason, my

1466
01:27:56,479 --> 01:28:01,040
Speaker 1: apple watch just said he didn't understand what you said. Yes,

1467
01:28:01,080 --> 01:28:05,000
Speaker 1: so they really are listening in everywhere, Bob oh yeah,

1468
01:28:04,720 --> 01:28:08,479
Speaker 1: oh god? So, um did I blow my mind? I

1469
01:28:08,520 --> 01:28:12,360
Speaker 1: don't think so. I've never had that, even in in

1470
01:28:12,400 --> 01:28:16,320
Speaker 1: the sorts of crazier days. I wasn't like one of

1471
01:28:16,360 --> 01:28:19,080
Speaker 1: those people who bought a Rolls Royce and because I

1472
01:28:19,120 --> 01:28:21,519
Speaker 1: never moved to l a and for me, it was

1473
01:28:21,560 --> 01:28:25,599
Speaker 1: like I always worked. It was always about the work

1474
01:28:25,640 --> 01:28:29,760
Speaker 1: and the art, you know. And I was just not

1475
01:28:29,960 --> 01:28:32,080
Speaker 1: stupid enough to think that if I earn a million

1476
01:28:32,120 --> 01:28:34,160
Speaker 1: bucks this year, I need to live a million dollar

1477
01:28:34,200 --> 01:28:37,640
Speaker 1: a year lifestyle because I probably won't be earning a

1478
01:28:37,680 --> 01:28:41,559
Speaker 1: million dollars every year, you know. So you know, it's

1479
01:28:41,600 --> 01:28:44,880
Speaker 1: like some some sports stars still don't get that they

1480
01:28:44,920 --> 01:28:47,120
Speaker 1: think they're going to be playing basketball at the age

1481
01:28:47,120 --> 01:28:51,160
Speaker 1: of sixty five. You know, No, certainly in sports, you know,

1482
01:28:51,439 --> 01:28:53,600
Speaker 1: very in sports, it's very, very bad. I think it

1483
01:28:53,680 --> 01:28:57,600
Speaker 1: probably has changed now. I think they have financial advisors

1484
01:28:57,680 --> 01:29:01,520
Speaker 1: and it improved, but you know, it's still a problem.

1485
01:29:01,560 --> 01:29:05,200
Speaker 1: But let's go back. You talked about losing the wonder

1486
01:29:05,200 --> 01:29:08,320
Speaker 1: in the excitement just before you moved to Jakarta. Well,

1487
01:29:08,360 --> 01:29:13,480
Speaker 1: I was losing. Losing it's a little bit. Yeah, okay,

1488
01:29:13,520 --> 01:29:18,280
Speaker 1: but let's just apply that to the music itself. For you,

1489
01:29:18,280 --> 01:29:22,360
Speaker 1: you seem to indicate earlier that the music itself changed

1490
01:29:22,640 --> 01:29:26,200
Speaker 1: or maybe your reaction there too. Can you plat? I

1491
01:29:26,200 --> 01:29:29,120
Speaker 1: mean when I listen, the Beatles came along, music drove

1492
01:29:29,160 --> 01:29:31,400
Speaker 1: the culture, and then it faded at the end of

1493
01:29:31,439 --> 01:29:34,839
Speaker 1: the seventies, and the MTV came along and it happened again.

1494
01:29:35,160 --> 01:29:37,639
Speaker 1: And there's certainly music it's successful. People have no idea.

1495
01:29:37,680 --> 01:29:40,360
Speaker 1: You're talking about the BBC earlier, how we were addicted

1496
01:29:40,400 --> 01:29:44,280
Speaker 1: to the radio. So when did it change and why

1497
01:29:44,320 --> 01:29:47,759
Speaker 1: did it change? Oh day, was just the technology changed

1498
01:29:48,160 --> 01:29:54,240
Speaker 1: and and and it's enabled the technology enabled people to

1499
01:29:54,320 --> 01:29:58,439
Speaker 1: make records in their homes and and the sort of

1500
01:29:58,760 --> 01:30:01,800
Speaker 1: you know, the recording studio is my church, you know,

1501
01:30:01,920 --> 01:30:04,960
Speaker 1: that's that's my religion. You know, as I say, I

1502
01:30:05,000 --> 01:30:06,760
Speaker 1: have no rules, but I actually do have one rule.

1503
01:30:06,960 --> 01:30:10,880
Speaker 1: I will not let anyone eat in the control room.

1504
01:30:10,960 --> 01:30:13,720
Speaker 1: You know, I won't let anyone it because because I

1505
01:30:14,439 --> 01:30:17,680
Speaker 1: the idea of smelly you know, eating at your workstation

1506
01:30:17,800 --> 01:30:20,240
Speaker 1: is bad enough. And that's a very American thing, by

1507
01:30:20,280 --> 01:30:23,840
Speaker 1: the way, people eating at their desk. But if you know,

1508
01:30:23,920 --> 01:30:25,599
Speaker 1: if there's a rule I say to someone when they

1509
01:30:25,600 --> 01:30:28,080
Speaker 1: come in munching a fucking burger with onions, I said,

1510
01:30:28,080 --> 01:30:30,439
Speaker 1: excuse me, could you go out? Because it's like you

1511
01:30:30,520 --> 01:30:34,639
Speaker 1: walked into church eating a fucking hamburger. It's just not right.

1512
01:30:34,960 --> 01:30:38,280
Speaker 1: And for me, the studio is this wonderful place of

1513
01:30:38,400 --> 01:30:42,839
Speaker 1: mystery like the churches too religious people, So I don't

1514
01:30:42,880 --> 01:30:45,000
Speaker 1: that's my one rule. I tell people not to eat

1515
01:30:45,000 --> 01:30:48,800
Speaker 1: in the control room. Um. But but but the sense

1516
01:30:48,840 --> 01:30:51,160
Speaker 1: of wonder, I mean, you don't have the sense of

1517
01:30:51,200 --> 01:30:54,720
Speaker 1: wonder as much when your first thing that you do

1518
01:30:54,880 --> 01:30:58,439
Speaker 1: is to turn on a you know, is to is

1519
01:30:58,479 --> 01:31:02,200
Speaker 1: to have sequences and and no musicians, and everyone's looking

1520
01:31:02,200 --> 01:31:05,519
Speaker 1: at the screen, you know. I think that's when you know.

1521
01:31:05,560 --> 01:31:08,160
Speaker 1: I've always used my ears, you know, my ears have

1522
01:31:08,280 --> 01:31:13,839
Speaker 1: been my thing, not my eyes. And now I think, um,

1523
01:31:13,880 --> 01:31:17,679
Speaker 1: a lot of people look to see what's wrong rather

1524
01:31:17,760 --> 01:31:21,880
Speaker 1: than listen to see what's wrong, you know. And I uh,

1525
01:31:22,920 --> 01:31:25,880
Speaker 1: but also given the way record everything has to be

1526
01:31:25,960 --> 01:31:28,760
Speaker 1: so christine and perfect because it's easy for it to

1527
01:31:28,800 --> 01:31:32,200
Speaker 1: be christine and perfect, whereas back in the day, our

1528
01:31:32,240 --> 01:31:37,720
Speaker 1: favorite records were all this wonderful sort of connection of smudginess,

1529
01:31:38,200 --> 01:31:40,760
Speaker 1: that that that that you just listened to and was

1530
01:31:41,439 --> 01:31:45,080
Speaker 1: we're just amazed by and every time you heard it,

1531
01:31:45,160 --> 01:31:48,439
Speaker 1: you heard something new and some you know, and it

1532
01:31:48,479 --> 01:31:52,679
Speaker 1: was mysterious. Maybe kids now find music mysterious, but I

1533
01:31:52,720 --> 01:31:56,439
Speaker 1: don't know whether they do. You know, you know, I

1534
01:31:56,479 --> 01:32:00,439
Speaker 1: don't think anything with any real profile is mysterious. Now

1535
01:32:00,479 --> 01:32:05,680
Speaker 1: today the biggest genre is hip hop, and there's still pop.

1536
01:32:05,720 --> 01:32:07,880
Speaker 1: Are you a fan of those records who died in

1537
01:32:07,920 --> 01:32:11,080
Speaker 1: the wall? Rocker? Oh? I'm I was never really a rocker.

1538
01:32:11,680 --> 01:32:14,559
Speaker 1: I've no, I never really. I don't think I've ever

1539
01:32:14,600 --> 01:32:17,320
Speaker 1: done power chords on a record in my life. I

1540
01:32:17,360 --> 01:32:21,320
Speaker 1: don't like power chords. It's the most uncreative way of

1541
01:32:21,400 --> 01:32:25,240
Speaker 1: making power. I've always tried to do other cover of dogs,

1542
01:32:25,240 --> 01:32:28,719
Speaker 1: working on UM. I've always tried to look for other

1543
01:32:28,760 --> 01:32:34,559
Speaker 1: ways to get the right sounds. So you know, I've

1544
01:32:34,800 --> 01:32:38,400
Speaker 1: I've always turned down those artists. You know, if we

1545
01:32:38,439 --> 01:32:40,519
Speaker 1: had time, I would tell you my Guns and Roses story.

1546
01:32:41,080 --> 01:32:44,360
Speaker 1: Are you gonna tell it? Did you brite it up? Oh? Okay,

1547
01:32:44,439 --> 01:32:48,599
Speaker 1: And I'll tell you why I'm telling you this story. Okay, okay, Well,

1548
01:32:49,080 --> 01:32:51,479
Speaker 1: you know guns and roses, they are rocked royalty to

1549
01:32:51,600 --> 01:32:56,200
Speaker 1: Americans especially, and to many many people. So when I

1550
01:32:56,280 --> 01:33:00,880
Speaker 1: got the phone call that Axl wanted to meet me

1551
01:33:01,760 --> 01:33:05,439
Speaker 1: for Chinese democracy, and this was only a couple of

1552
01:33:05,479 --> 01:33:09,479
Speaker 1: years into it, you know, so it wasn't like this,

1553
01:33:09,720 --> 01:33:12,799
Speaker 1: you know, no one really knew that the red flags.

1554
01:33:13,800 --> 01:33:18,640
Speaker 1: But anyway, so they flew me to l A, you know,

1555
01:33:19,320 --> 01:33:23,479
Speaker 1: to meet to meet me, and and and we went

1556
01:33:23,800 --> 01:33:29,040
Speaker 1: to dinner, uh that one mccassie Japanese restaurant just over

1557
01:33:29,080 --> 01:33:32,200
Speaker 1: the hill of the Fame. Yeah, anyway, absolutely, you know,

1558
01:33:33,080 --> 01:33:35,000
Speaker 1: I've forgot the name. So and you know, we get

1559
01:33:35,040 --> 01:33:37,840
Speaker 1: on great, you know, me Axel and his manager of

1560
01:33:37,920 --> 01:33:43,680
Speaker 1: the time. I can't dug someone another's gold team. So

1561
01:33:43,680 --> 01:33:46,160
Speaker 1: we're chatting and we're great, great, we got on. Well,

1562
01:33:46,280 --> 01:33:48,200
Speaker 1: we and he says, look, I've got the studio book

1563
01:33:48,240 --> 01:33:49,720
Speaker 1: for the next six months. Do you want to come

1564
01:33:49,760 --> 01:33:52,360
Speaker 1: to the studio? I said, yeah, great, So we went

1565
01:33:52,400 --> 01:33:55,320
Speaker 1: to the studio and we're in there and and he said,

1566
01:33:55,320 --> 01:33:57,400
Speaker 1: I'll play a few tracks. So he played me a

1567
01:33:57,439 --> 01:34:01,519
Speaker 1: few few tracks and and actually I thought, oh, I

1568
01:34:01,600 --> 01:34:04,000
Speaker 1: understand why he might want me on this album, I think,

1569
01:34:04,320 --> 01:34:06,840
Speaker 1: And I started to get excited. I said, but but

1570
01:34:07,000 --> 01:34:09,120
Speaker 1: all that they were just backing tracks, none of them

1571
01:34:09,120 --> 01:34:11,320
Speaker 1: had any vocals on. I said, do you have anything

1572
01:34:11,320 --> 01:34:15,680
Speaker 1: with vocals, because yeah, I have one song. So he

1573
01:34:15,800 --> 01:34:18,840
Speaker 1: played this one song with singing, and I suddenly went,

1574
01:34:18,880 --> 01:34:24,719
Speaker 1: oh shit, I've just realized I literally could never press

1575
01:34:24,840 --> 01:34:28,559
Speaker 1: the talk back and say that sounds really good, because

1576
01:34:28,600 --> 01:34:34,840
Speaker 1: for me, it would always sound better without singing, because no, no,

1577
01:34:34,960 --> 01:34:37,559
Speaker 1: and I and I and I'm and I'm honest about

1578
01:34:37,600 --> 01:34:40,080
Speaker 1: this and I and I and and my heart sunk

1579
01:34:40,160 --> 01:34:46,200
Speaker 1: because you know, I've forgotten that that, you know, for

1580
01:34:46,200 --> 01:34:48,000
Speaker 1: for some people, as I say, they loved the sound

1581
01:34:48,000 --> 01:34:50,439
Speaker 1: of his voice. For me, I didn't, And I maybe

1582
01:34:50,439 --> 01:34:52,400
Speaker 1: should have said that before I went to the meeting,

1583
01:34:52,439 --> 01:34:56,280
Speaker 1: But anyway, whatever, I just had this sinking feeling in

1584
01:34:56,360 --> 01:34:59,639
Speaker 1: my heart, but I didn't say anything. We finished the evening,

1585
01:34:59,640 --> 01:35:02,479
Speaker 1: I went back to the to the hotel. Next morning,

1586
01:35:02,560 --> 01:35:06,479
Speaker 1: Doug called me, Steve, you're in Axel things. You're fucking great,

1587
01:35:06,880 --> 01:35:10,439
Speaker 1: and well, actually, Doug, I I don't think I'm the

1588
01:35:10,520 --> 01:35:15,679
Speaker 1: right man for your album, and he goes, oh, really, blah,

1589
01:35:15,720 --> 01:35:18,040
Speaker 1: blah blah blah art. But you know you can't force

1590
01:35:18,120 --> 01:35:22,640
Speaker 1: someone to have sex with k so um so we

1591
01:35:22,840 --> 01:35:24,640
Speaker 1: I didn't go, and that would be the story. I

1592
01:35:24,640 --> 01:35:27,240
Speaker 1: would never have told this to you and your millions

1593
01:35:27,240 --> 01:35:31,719
Speaker 1: of adoring listeners, except the next issue of Rolling Stone

1594
01:35:31,800 --> 01:35:35,920
Speaker 1: comes out and it's axl Rose turns down Steve lily

1595
01:35:36,000 --> 01:35:40,280
Speaker 1: White and I got you. You should have just said nothing.

1596
01:35:40,960 --> 01:35:44,040
Speaker 1: You know, you know, And so that's why I tell

1597
01:35:44,120 --> 01:35:47,280
Speaker 1: the story, because you know, if if I hadn't, if

1598
01:35:47,320 --> 01:35:50,960
Speaker 1: he hadn't said that, and they can set the record straight. Okay,

1599
01:35:51,320 --> 01:35:54,880
Speaker 1: so you're obviously working. Are you working all day or

1600
01:35:54,920 --> 01:35:57,280
Speaker 1: is there anything else that fills the rest of the day,

1601
01:35:57,320 --> 01:36:03,400
Speaker 1: Your reader, your TV streamer. I'm a huge football soccer fan,

1602
01:36:03,840 --> 01:36:07,600
Speaker 1: you know, I mean that's my thing. I well, Indonesia

1603
01:36:07,720 --> 01:36:11,559
Speaker 1: right now, Jakarta is is in what they call semi lockdown.

1604
01:36:13,280 --> 01:36:15,479
Speaker 1: I can go to my office at KFC, but I

1605
01:36:15,520 --> 01:36:18,120
Speaker 1: can also do a lot of work from home, you know,

1606
01:36:18,160 --> 01:36:21,200
Speaker 1: which everyone's a lot of people have realized they've realized

1607
01:36:21,240 --> 01:36:24,760
Speaker 1: that they don't have to go. But you know, I

1608
01:36:24,800 --> 01:36:27,200
Speaker 1: am a people person, so I do like to be

1609
01:36:27,360 --> 01:36:31,720
Speaker 1: with people. Um I restaurants here are open til eight

1610
01:36:31,720 --> 01:36:35,600
Speaker 1: o'clock in the evening at thirty capacity. But you know,

1611
01:36:35,640 --> 01:36:38,559
Speaker 1: I take a lot of I have a test every week,

1612
01:36:39,439 --> 01:36:43,320
Speaker 1: COVID test. I wash my hands, you know, I know

1613
01:36:43,479 --> 01:36:46,120
Speaker 1: lots of it. You know. It's the cases are starting

1614
01:36:46,120 --> 01:36:49,320
Speaker 1: to slowly, slowly built here because it's always you know,

1615
01:36:49,320 --> 01:36:53,880
Speaker 1: it's always centigrade thirty thirty two degrees. So I don't

1616
01:36:53,920 --> 01:36:56,400
Speaker 1: think you've double that. They have thirty two. So that's

1617
01:36:56,760 --> 01:37:00,400
Speaker 1: basically ninety six degrees. Yes, something is in ninety six Yeah,

1618
01:37:00,600 --> 01:37:03,240
Speaker 1: during the day at about twenty five at night. Um,

1619
01:37:03,400 --> 01:37:07,599
Speaker 1: so it's it's it's lovely and it's a little polluted,

1620
01:37:07,680 --> 01:37:12,160
Speaker 1: although less polluted now because of because there's less industry,

1621
01:37:12,200 --> 01:37:15,800
Speaker 1: you know, there's less going on, but less cars on

1622
01:37:15,840 --> 01:37:19,640
Speaker 1: the street. But I mean, I think I have to

1623
01:37:19,920 --> 01:37:24,040
Speaker 1: after it's right now, it's for you, it's what seven pm,

1624
01:37:24,160 --> 01:37:28,599
Speaker 1: right exactly seven pm? It's ten am for me, so

1625
01:37:28,880 --> 01:37:34,000
Speaker 1: I will yeah, I don't know yet, but it's it's

1626
01:37:34,040 --> 01:37:37,360
Speaker 1: a you know, okay, what do you what do you

1627
01:37:37,400 --> 01:37:41,240
Speaker 1: think about what's going on in Britain with Brexit, collvid, etcetera.

1628
01:37:41,320 --> 01:37:43,439
Speaker 1: And now that you live in Dakarda, well the whole

1629
01:37:43,680 --> 01:37:48,000
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just so sad that, you know, Brexit

1630
01:37:48,160 --> 01:37:51,439
Speaker 1: was a problem that we didn't even know we had.

1631
01:37:52,360 --> 01:37:55,240
Speaker 1: You know, it was a problem. You know, David Cameron

1632
01:37:55,680 --> 01:37:57,720
Speaker 1: was actually not the worst Prime minister we had, but

1633
01:37:57,800 --> 01:38:00,439
Speaker 1: he did the worst thing ever to the British people.

1634
01:38:00,960 --> 01:38:03,160
Speaker 1: If you give if you only have a two horse

1635
01:38:03,280 --> 01:38:06,720
Speaker 1: race and you give them a choice this or this.

1636
01:38:07,280 --> 01:38:09,960
Speaker 1: I mean you look at American politics, Actually what happens

1637
01:38:10,040 --> 01:38:15,840
Speaker 1: is it normally splits very close to whatever, whether it's

1638
01:38:15,880 --> 01:38:20,559
Speaker 1: like the devil or gods. You know, it's um So,

1639
01:38:21,120 --> 01:38:25,200
Speaker 1: you know, no one really hated it wasn't a big deal. No,

1640
01:38:25,200 --> 01:38:28,559
Speaker 1: no one hated Europe. But you know Brexit comes about

1641
01:38:28,600 --> 01:38:31,559
Speaker 1: and all that, the lies being told about. You know,

1642
01:38:31,640 --> 01:38:34,240
Speaker 1: it's got to be done. We need our own sovereignty.

1643
01:38:34,680 --> 01:38:38,600
Speaker 1: It's bullshit, you know. All I all I know is

1644
01:38:38,640 --> 01:38:41,920
Speaker 1: that if you're in a storm on the ocean, would

1645
01:38:41,960 --> 01:38:44,720
Speaker 1: you rather be in a little rowing boat or would

1646
01:38:44,760 --> 01:38:47,639
Speaker 1: you rather be in the Queen Mary? You know, And

1647
01:38:47,680 --> 01:38:49,920
Speaker 1: that's pretty much where Britain is now. We're a little

1648
01:38:50,000 --> 01:38:52,559
Speaker 1: rowing boat. Now. Everyone goes, oh, yeah, but we've got

1649
01:38:52,560 --> 01:38:55,680
Speaker 1: far more vaccines at the moment. Yes, that's true, but

1650
01:38:56,200 --> 01:38:59,680
Speaker 1: you know, Um, it's because we're you know, you look

1651
01:38:59,720 --> 01:39:03,680
Speaker 1: at the huntries that have vaccinated the highest population are

1652
01:39:03,680 --> 01:39:05,719
Speaker 1: the ones with the you know, I mean Israel doesn't

1653
01:39:05,760 --> 01:39:10,640
Speaker 1: have a large population really, you know. So it's um.

1654
01:39:10,720 --> 01:39:13,479
Speaker 1: But yeah, I'm I'm very proud to be British, but

1655
01:39:13,600 --> 01:39:16,599
Speaker 1: I am a European as well, you know. Now I'm

1656
01:39:16,640 --> 01:39:20,880
Speaker 1: paying Okay, prior to COVID, how much did you get

1657
01:39:20,880 --> 01:39:23,920
Speaker 1: out of Karna? And where did you go? Oh? Well, Bali,

1658
01:39:24,000 --> 01:39:27,519
Speaker 1: of course is part of Indonesia, but there's that's only

1659
01:39:27,560 --> 01:39:31,240
Speaker 1: one of thousands of islands, and they're these fantastic places

1660
01:39:31,280 --> 01:39:34,559
Speaker 1: to visit, you know, which are sort of weakendable for me.

1661
01:39:35,200 --> 01:39:40,439
Speaker 1: So um. But also you know, I like, you know,

1662
01:39:40,520 --> 01:39:44,439
Speaker 1: I live to eat. You know, I don't eat to live.

1663
01:39:44,520 --> 01:39:47,000
Speaker 1: I live to eat. So for me, one thing that

1664
01:39:47,040 --> 01:39:50,040
Speaker 1: my lifestyle has enabled me is the ability to eat

1665
01:39:50,240 --> 01:39:53,840
Speaker 1: at probably the most expensive restaurant in the world. You know,

1666
01:39:54,000 --> 01:39:58,600
Speaker 1: how often, Bob, can you afford what is considered the

1667
01:39:58,680 --> 01:40:01,639
Speaker 1: best in the world of everything? I'll never be able

1668
01:40:01,680 --> 01:40:04,240
Speaker 1: to afford the best car in the world, now that's

1669
01:40:04,240 --> 01:40:06,559
Speaker 1: what I say. I use a much baser thing. I

1670
01:40:06,600 --> 01:40:09,759
Speaker 1: talk about chocolate chip cookies. If I'm meeting chocolate chip cookies.

1671
01:40:09,800 --> 01:40:11,519
Speaker 1: Why I take the ones off the shelf. I can

1672
01:40:11,560 --> 01:40:15,320
Speaker 1: get the best chocolate chip cookie for fire under ten dollars.

1673
01:40:15,360 --> 01:40:17,960
Speaker 1: I can live like a king. Well, that's true, you know.

1674
01:40:18,080 --> 01:40:20,840
Speaker 1: And and one of the great things about food as

1675
01:40:20,880 --> 01:40:26,000
Speaker 1: a general art form is there are no um there

1676
01:40:26,040 --> 01:40:29,479
Speaker 1: no one owns the copyright on anything. So you know,

1677
01:40:29,600 --> 01:40:32,280
Speaker 1: you can go to a little village in Colombia and

1678
01:40:32,400 --> 01:40:34,799
Speaker 1: eat something, and you can take it to your restaurants

1679
01:40:34,800 --> 01:40:37,760
Speaker 1: in Ohio and tweak it, and then someone can come

1680
01:40:37,800 --> 01:40:40,320
Speaker 1: to your restaurant in Ohio and then take it to

1681
01:40:40,400 --> 01:40:42,760
Speaker 1: a restaurant in l A and then tweet. You know,

1682
01:40:42,920 --> 01:40:45,800
Speaker 1: So you get this wonderful getting better and better because

1683
01:40:45,800 --> 01:40:50,240
Speaker 1: it's all different people working together. You know, there's no

1684
01:40:50,439 --> 01:40:55,439
Speaker 1: copyright on any food, so I I you know, even

1685
01:40:55,479 --> 01:40:58,400
Speaker 1: in Jakarta we get great food. Indonesian food is pretty good.

1686
01:40:59,000 --> 01:41:01,000
Speaker 1: But the thing I love at the moment is my

1687
01:41:01,160 --> 01:41:04,719
Speaker 1: air fryer. Are you familiar with? What are you cooking

1688
01:41:04,720 --> 01:41:07,639
Speaker 1: your air fer anything? It's great for heating up, it's

1689
01:41:07,680 --> 01:41:11,639
Speaker 1: great for chicken, it's great for oh god, chicken livers

1690
01:41:11,640 --> 01:41:15,600
Speaker 1: in there are delicious. Um. Are you familiar with so

1691
01:41:15,720 --> 01:41:17,599
Speaker 1: not only do you eat, you know how to cook

1692
01:41:17,720 --> 01:41:20,120
Speaker 1: well a little bit, A little bit, Okay, I don't

1693
01:41:20,120 --> 01:41:22,439
Speaker 1: really cook it off. Okay, one can cook with an

1694
01:41:22,439 --> 01:41:25,679
Speaker 1: air fried bob by yourself an air fryer. Okay. What's

1695
01:41:25,760 --> 01:41:28,559
Speaker 1: the best meal you've ever had? The best meal I've

1696
01:41:28,840 --> 01:41:32,120
Speaker 1: Oh god, I don't know. I mean, depends how hungry

1697
01:41:32,160 --> 01:41:34,720
Speaker 1: I am. But but have you eaten some of the

1698
01:41:34,760 --> 01:41:38,400
Speaker 1: great what is it normal? Have you eaten this ill bully?

1699
01:41:38,720 --> 01:41:41,040
Speaker 1: Is the is the best one? And I've been to

1700
01:41:41,160 --> 01:41:46,960
Speaker 1: a two mission. There's only three Michelin stars, right, And

1701
01:41:47,040 --> 01:41:50,000
Speaker 1: apparently someone told me the difference between a two Michelin

1702
01:41:50,080 --> 01:41:53,200
Speaker 1: Star restaurant and a three Michelin Star restaurant is only

1703
01:41:53,280 --> 01:41:57,600
Speaker 1: the service is the silver stood the actual quality of

1704
01:41:57,600 --> 01:41:59,639
Speaker 1: the food between the two and the three stars about

1705
01:41:59,720 --> 01:42:02,919
Speaker 1: the stay right. So I've been to a two Michelin

1706
01:42:03,040 --> 01:42:07,840
Speaker 1: Star in Singapore. Um, but you know, I'm always just

1707
01:42:08,160 --> 01:42:10,720
Speaker 1: you know, when I find something that I like. You know,

1708
01:42:10,880 --> 01:42:13,880
Speaker 1: the same with the chocolate chip cookies, I artias and

1709
01:42:13,920 --> 01:42:17,720
Speaker 1: all like. You know that the big thing in Indonesia

1710
01:42:17,760 --> 01:42:19,080
Speaker 1: at the moment, and I don't know about l A,

1711
01:42:19,240 --> 01:42:23,040
Speaker 1: is that is that people they sort of advertise on

1712
01:42:23,080 --> 01:42:26,200
Speaker 1: Instagram and stuff. You know, on this day we are

1713
01:42:26,280 --> 01:42:30,160
Speaker 1: doing a batch of this and if you wanted to

1714
01:42:30,360 --> 01:42:33,000
Speaker 1: order it, order it now and we'll deliver it to

1715
01:42:33,040 --> 01:42:38,759
Speaker 1: you on that day, you know. So you know my um.

1716
01:42:38,800 --> 01:42:42,280
Speaker 1: So there's one place that that does this clam chowder,

1717
01:42:42,360 --> 01:42:44,320
Speaker 1: but you know it's only every two or three weeks.

1718
01:42:44,720 --> 01:42:47,840
Speaker 1: So I always they have clam chowder in Jakarta. Yes,

1719
01:42:48,920 --> 01:42:53,840
Speaker 1: on sour dough. It's delicious. I loved a huge clam

1720
01:42:53,920 --> 01:42:55,439
Speaker 1: chowder fit And you don't have to give you three

1721
01:42:55,640 --> 01:42:58,360
Speaker 1: what's the clear? Okay? So what's your last meal? What

1722
01:42:58,520 --> 01:43:03,479
Speaker 1: kind of cuisine do you want? Oh? Oh? Japanese, followed

1723
01:43:03,520 --> 01:43:08,000
Speaker 1: by Italian. They are followed by Indian. I think those

1724
01:43:08,000 --> 01:43:11,040
Speaker 1: are my top three, I think, and then the Japanese.

1725
01:43:11,040 --> 01:43:14,559
Speaker 1: Would it be sushi, sushimi or would it be good dishes?

1726
01:43:14,600 --> 01:43:17,000
Speaker 1: So it would be sushi. I mean, you know, the

1727
01:43:17,880 --> 01:43:21,320
Speaker 1: greatest sushi in the world. I mean, you know those

1728
01:43:21,360 --> 01:43:26,840
Speaker 1: places in on Sunset which which are like which you know,

1729
01:43:26,920 --> 01:43:29,160
Speaker 1: not romantic at all, and you sit at the sushi

1730
01:43:29,160 --> 01:43:31,439
Speaker 1: bar and I love that you can spend a couple

1731
01:43:31,479 --> 01:43:34,760
Speaker 1: of hundred bucks in half an hour, you know, I

1732
01:43:34,960 --> 01:43:38,040
Speaker 1: just feed me for me, you know, I don't go

1733
01:43:38,760 --> 01:43:41,559
Speaker 1: This is the trouble with America is too much choice.

1734
01:43:42,280 --> 01:43:45,680
Speaker 1: If you have too much choice, you can hide. Mediocrity

1735
01:43:45,960 --> 01:43:49,960
Speaker 1: hides behind choice if you have Wow, that's a great statement.

1736
01:43:49,960 --> 01:43:52,040
Speaker 1: I've never heard that before. Well no, I've never said

1737
01:43:52,040 --> 01:43:55,200
Speaker 1: it before, but it does it well. This is my

1738
01:43:55,400 --> 01:43:58,880
Speaker 1: idea that that that if you have less choice, it

1739
01:43:59,000 --> 01:44:04,200
Speaker 1: has to be good. Otherwise you would you would um,

1740
01:44:04,280 --> 01:44:06,599
Speaker 1: you would, you would go out of business. So if

1741
01:44:06,640 --> 01:44:09,400
Speaker 1: ever there's a restaurant that only serves one thing but

1742
01:44:09,560 --> 01:44:12,639
Speaker 1: it's busy, I would go there because I know if

1743
01:44:12,640 --> 01:44:14,960
Speaker 1: there's ever a business that only does one thing but

1744
01:44:15,040 --> 01:44:18,200
Speaker 1: it's a successful business, I know that it's it's great,

1745
01:44:19,160 --> 01:44:23,080
Speaker 1: you know, and Amakassie is pretty much that. You know,

1746
01:44:23,240 --> 01:44:26,920
Speaker 1: it's only what they find that day. And you know,

1747
01:44:27,280 --> 01:44:30,400
Speaker 1: I don't I don't tell someone how to cook my food.

1748
01:44:31,120 --> 01:44:33,280
Speaker 1: You know. It's like I don't tell someone how to

1749
01:44:33,320 --> 01:44:35,960
Speaker 1: cut my hair. I just don't go to that barber

1750
01:44:36,120 --> 01:44:40,440
Speaker 1: or I don't go to that restaurant. Again, great philosophy.

1751
01:44:40,479 --> 01:44:42,639
Speaker 1: You know, when when I talk about you the third parties,

1752
01:44:42,680 --> 01:44:46,080
Speaker 1: I say, Steve is completely opposite of what you think

1753
01:44:46,120 --> 01:44:49,679
Speaker 1: of a record producer, certainly Phil spector recently. Not someone

1754
01:44:49,720 --> 01:44:53,880
Speaker 1: who's introverted, lives the dark. Whatever. You're a guy who

1755
01:44:53,880 --> 01:44:56,280
Speaker 1: could be playing on the football team. As you say,

1756
01:44:56,320 --> 01:44:59,280
Speaker 1: you are a people person. Uh. You know, there's so

1757
01:44:59,320 --> 01:45:01,280
Speaker 1: many other sub next we could talk about, but I

1758
01:45:01,320 --> 01:45:03,400
Speaker 1: think we've come to the end of the feeling we've

1759
01:45:03,439 --> 01:45:09,160
Speaker 1: known for today's styes about if ever you need anything else,

1760
01:45:09,240 --> 01:45:12,000
Speaker 1: And look, it's been great. I loved it very good

1761
01:45:12,080 --> 01:45:13,680
Speaker 1: and I loved it too, and I know people love

1762
01:45:13,760 --> 01:45:32,200
Speaker 1: listening to it. Until next time this time, Okay,