WEBVTT - Interview With Dan Biederman: Masters in Business (Audio) 0:00:03.240 --> 0:00:07.560 This is Masters in Business with Barry Ridholts on Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:08.160 --> 0:00:11.360 This week on Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio, I 0:00:11.480 --> 0:00:16.000 have a very interesting and special guest. His name is 0:00:16.079 --> 0:00:19.880 Dan Bieteman, and he is the founder and chairman of 0:00:20.520 --> 0:00:25.800 uh Beetoman Development Ventures. Dan is the guy who, at 0:00:25.840 --> 0:00:30.200 a very young age, was tapped to run the company 0:00:30.440 --> 0:00:35.120 that essentially turned around Bryant Park in New York and 0:00:35.200 --> 0:00:41.320 he literally created a brand new model of managing and 0:00:41.400 --> 0:00:46.159 developing and redeveloping public spaces in a way that is 0:00:46.440 --> 0:00:51.240 effective and cost efficient and doesn't cost the taxpayers anything. 0:00:51.880 --> 0:00:54.440 It's really a fascinating story as to how this came 0:00:54.480 --> 0:00:59.520 about and Brian park begat all these other ventures and 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:02.080 parks both around New York and around the country, and 0:01:02.200 --> 0:01:06.000 even internationally they've they've worked in Singapore and in Canada 0:01:06.000 --> 0:01:10.000 and elsewhere. I found it to be really a fascinating story. 0:01:10.640 --> 0:01:12.919 And of all the folks we've had on the show, 0:01:13.440 --> 0:01:15.800 if you take the ratio of how well known the 0:01:15.840 --> 0:01:19.000 person is to the impact they've had on on and 0:01:19.040 --> 0:01:22.039 the number of individuals they've impacted, I think Dan is 0:01:22.080 --> 0:01:28.080 the lowest known factor to impact of of anybody. Six 0:01:28.120 --> 0:01:30.840 million people a year pastor Brian Park and it's just 0:01:31.280 --> 0:01:35.480 a jewel of New York. So, without any further ado, 0:01:35.640 --> 0:01:42.720 here is my conversation with Dan Bieterman. This is Masters 0:01:42.720 --> 0:01:46.720 in Business with Barry Ridholds on Bloomberg Radio. I know 0:01:46.840 --> 0:01:49.080 I say this every week. I have a special guest, 0:01:49.560 --> 0:01:53.680 but I really have a special guest who I'm gonna 0:01:53.920 --> 0:01:59.120 describe him as someone who probably impacts more people on 0:01:59.160 --> 0:02:02.160 a daily base is and is less known to the 0:02:02.200 --> 0:02:06.080 general public than any other guest we've had. His name 0:02:06.120 --> 0:02:09.600 is Dan Bieterman, and he is the person, in addition 0:02:10.040 --> 0:02:14.520 to running Bieterman Redevelopment Ventures, is the person who has 0:02:15.480 --> 0:02:20.760 turned Bryant Park and other public spaces around from dangerous 0:02:20.800 --> 0:02:25.520 drug infested crime zones to really Brian Park is the 0:02:25.639 --> 0:02:31.200 jewel of Manhattan. Dan Bieterman, Welcome to Bloomberg. So, I 0:02:31.200 --> 0:02:33.600 I don't want to spend too much time delving into 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:38.160 your CV, but briefly, Magna cum Laudy at Princeton NBA 0:02:38.360 --> 0:02:45.160 with distinction from Harvard uh focusing at on both public 0:02:45.200 --> 0:02:48.880 and international affairs, and in your undergraduate work, it's the 0:02:49.000 --> 0:02:53.359 nineteen seventies and nineteen eighties, and I'm familiar with Brian 0:02:53.400 --> 0:02:56.880 Park because as a kid, my dad worked on Madison 0:02:56.919 --> 0:02:58.519 and thirty nine and I used to come in and 0:02:58.639 --> 0:03:02.040 visit him, and I was always told, hey, stay away 0:03:02.080 --> 0:03:03.960 from the park. Same thing with me and my father, 0:03:04.000 --> 0:03:07.360 who worked in the Grace Building. So so so that's 0:03:07.400 --> 0:03:10.880 your first introduction to Brian Park. The Grace Building literally 0:03:11.400 --> 0:03:16.600 faces Brian Park. So from that introduction as a kid, 0:03:17.160 --> 0:03:19.840 we go to the nineties, seventies and eighties. The park 0:03:20.000 --> 0:03:23.600 is decrepit, it's filled with homeless, it's filled with drug dealers, 0:03:23.600 --> 0:03:27.240 it's a disaster. You come along, what makes you say, 0:03:27.360 --> 0:03:31.880 I have an idea, let's incorporate unentity to clean this up. 0:03:32.480 --> 0:03:34.560 I was lucky and that it was a great first 0:03:34.639 --> 0:03:36.960 job in the field because I've always wanted to be 0:03:36.960 --> 0:03:39.320 between the public and private sectors. I wanted to do 0:03:39.400 --> 0:03:43.000 public sector work, but not on public sector terms. So 0:03:43.120 --> 0:03:46.120 this opportunity came from the Rockefellers, of all people out 0:03:46.120 --> 0:03:50.800 of nowhere, and the substance wasn't so difficult to come 0:03:50.880 --> 0:03:54.240 up with. The politics were miserable, but we uh got 0:03:54.240 --> 0:03:56.800 it done. It took a decade longer than it should have, 0:03:56.920 --> 0:04:00.600 and now we've had twenty five years to watch the improvement. 0:04:00.760 --> 0:04:04.280 So let's let's back up. The Rockefeller Is obviously Rockefeller 0:04:04.320 --> 0:04:07.520 Center up the street, but that's a good ten blocks 0:04:07.520 --> 0:04:10.800 away or or not eight blocks away. What was their 0:04:10.920 --> 0:04:14.200 interest in Bryant Park other than it was a horrific 0:04:14.280 --> 0:04:16.400 blight in in right in the middle of midtown. It 0:04:16.480 --> 0:04:18.680 was the library bear though most people didn't know the 0:04:18.720 --> 0:04:21.400 Rockefeller Is really viewed it as their institution, much like 0:04:21.480 --> 0:04:24.560 MoMA and other places the New York Public Library. They 0:04:24.560 --> 0:04:29.000 were huge sponsors, hugely involved, and Mrs Esther, on her 0:04:29.040 --> 0:04:31.640 way it was one of her key institutions, on her 0:04:31.680 --> 0:04:35.160 way into a meeting of the trustees, was accosted by 0:04:35.160 --> 0:04:38.160 some drug dealers. Mrs Esther, probably eighty two years old, 0:04:38.279 --> 0:04:40.839 looked like Mrs Esther, and they offer her drugs. So 0:04:40.880 --> 0:04:43.200 clearly the message was old lady, get out of here. 0:04:43.279 --> 0:04:47.159 This is our territory. She was outraged and ran into 0:04:47.320 --> 0:04:50.680 David Rockefeller, first person she sees and immediately after being 0:04:50.680 --> 0:04:53.640 accosted in Bryant Park. Very lucky for me, she says, 0:04:53.720 --> 0:04:57.760 young man, he's probably seventy four at the time. We 0:04:57.800 --> 0:05:00.200 need to do something about this misery. The roughie ends 0:05:00.240 --> 0:05:03.880 outside They just insulted me. Let's fix this. Well, let 0:05:03.880 --> 0:05:06.359 me let me. So you're a young kid at this point, 0:05:06.440 --> 0:05:09.880 how do you get tagged too? By the way, Dan, 0:05:10.000 --> 0:05:12.280 come over here, see this park. It's a mess. Fix it. 0:05:12.360 --> 0:05:14.400 The only reason I got introduced to the Rockefellers is 0:05:14.440 --> 0:05:18.320 Larry Cudlow decided to resign as treasurer of a nonprofit 0:05:18.360 --> 0:05:23.799 development corporation on West Street Street Development Corporation. They needed 0:05:23.800 --> 0:05:26.599 a replacement. The guy who ran that, Fred Pappard, knew me. 0:05:27.040 --> 0:05:28.920 He said, you can do this job. And by the way, 0:05:29.040 --> 0:05:32.440 side benefit is at every board meeting. Jackie Onassis is president. 0:05:32.440 --> 0:05:34.560 You'll get to know where So I said, sounds good, 0:05:34.600 --> 0:05:37.080 No pay, I assume he said, yes, I was twenty 0:05:37.120 --> 0:05:40.080 five years old. He suggested me to the Rockefellers for 0:05:40.120 --> 0:05:42.320 Brian Park because they were looking for somebody who might 0:05:42.360 --> 0:05:45.680 be a candidate to somehow turn around this mess. So 0:05:45.839 --> 0:05:49.360 you're on the Fort Street Development Corps. How does that 0:05:49.480 --> 0:05:54.039 morph into Bryant Park Corporation. When David Rockefeller, the world's 0:05:54.080 --> 0:05:57.520 most effective human being for the last hundred years, Oh yes, 0:05:57.640 --> 0:06:00.359 goes back to his office from the trustees meeting, says 0:06:00.400 --> 0:06:03.440 to the guy who round the Brothers fund, UM, we 0:06:03.480 --> 0:06:05.440 need to just hire somebody to fix this. We don't 0:06:05.440 --> 0:06:07.839 know what to do, but we can't have the library 0:06:07.920 --> 0:06:12.440 be surrounded by drug markets and killings and muggings and rapes. 0:06:12.600 --> 0:06:15.279 So there was a competition. I got the job, and 0:06:15.320 --> 0:06:19.080 then UM had no secretary. Nobody was in an abandoned 0:06:19.120 --> 0:06:21.200 office building because I didn't want to spend the Rockefeller's 0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:24.520 money on rent. And UH came up with a plan 0:06:24.800 --> 0:06:27.880 and the plan was a ninety day labor, but the 0:06:27.920 --> 0:06:31.240 politics were six year labor. It was really brutal. What 0:06:31.320 --> 0:06:33.719 was the plan to turn the bark around? I was 0:06:33.800 --> 0:06:35.960 even though I was young. I said, you gotta have 0:06:36.120 --> 0:06:38.520 models for such a thing. So the best models I 0:06:38.560 --> 0:06:41.640 found were actually something tied to the Rockefellers. Rockefeller Center, 0:06:41.960 --> 0:06:47.239 Disney and rousse Rouse had projects that were turning around cities. UH. 0:06:47.320 --> 0:06:50.560 Disney had done a fabulous job in their parks, and 0:06:50.600 --> 0:06:54.520 I think Celebration Florida was a beginning thought at the time. 0:06:54.920 --> 0:06:58.520 So I went to which which is the Disney residential 0:06:58.839 --> 0:07:02.360 town that was sort of built UM with the same 0:07:02.440 --> 0:07:05.440 thinking behind the Disneyland parks in terms of use of 0:07:05.560 --> 0:07:08.440 use and access in and every detail exquisite. It's really 0:07:08.480 --> 0:07:10.680 a wonderful thing. They never decided to go on in 0:07:10.720 --> 0:07:13.600 the business. So I went to all three companies and said, 0:07:14.080 --> 0:07:16.000 I'd like you, here's a deal. You can run a 0:07:16.000 --> 0:07:17.480 park in New York City. We're going to take it 0:07:17.520 --> 0:07:20.200 away from the drug guys. You guys will be our agent. 0:07:20.440 --> 0:07:22.920 I represent the Rockefellers in the New York Public Library 0:07:22.960 --> 0:07:25.400 and the surrounding real estate owners. Let's get to it. 0:07:25.440 --> 0:07:26.880 And they all said, thank you very much. We have 0:07:26.960 --> 0:07:29.240 better things to do than fight with drug sellers in 0:07:29.280 --> 0:07:31.400 New York City. But on the way out I got 0:07:31.440 --> 0:07:34.400 some useful information, which is I asked them how much 0:07:34.920 --> 0:07:36.880 did they think it would take to run a place 0:07:36.920 --> 0:07:39.200 like this? Well, they said, all of them, about a 0:07:39.240 --> 0:07:43.800 million dollars an acre. So we needed six million dollars. 0:07:43.800 --> 0:07:46.680 It's a six acre park. My chairman was Andrew High 0:07:46.680 --> 0:07:49.520 School of Time, Inc. And he said, how much is 0:07:49.520 --> 0:07:51.440 a city spending now? By the way, I said about 0:07:51.480 --> 0:07:55.120 a hundred thousand generously, and he said, okay, six million 0:07:55.160 --> 0:07:58.160 to a hundred thousand dollar off set. And by the way, 0:07:58.200 --> 0:08:01.120 who's spending the money better Rock Center and Rouse and 0:08:01.200 --> 0:08:03.320 Disney or the City of New York, and I said, 0:08:03.360 --> 0:08:05.720 you know the answer to that. So he said, so 0:08:05.800 --> 0:08:08.520 sixty to one plus a multiplayer of two or three. 0:08:08.920 --> 0:08:11.120 So a D eighty two one is the difference and 0:08:11.240 --> 0:08:16.640 effort going into those eight properties versus Brian Park, a 0:08:16.640 --> 0:08:20.040 public property, And we were off trying to assemble a 0:08:20.080 --> 0:08:22.720 mess of budget to allow us to do all the 0:08:22.760 --> 0:08:24.560 great things we wanted to do for the public in 0:08:24.720 --> 0:08:27.080 New York City. I'm Barry rich Helps. You're listening to 0:08:27.240 --> 0:08:30.640 Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio. My guest today is 0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:35.520 Dan Biederman of BTV Ventures. Dan's firm is the company 0:08:35.520 --> 0:08:39.559 that essentially turned around Brian Park, as well as dozens 0:08:39.559 --> 0:08:42.720 of other parks around the country and elsewhere in the world. 0:08:42.760 --> 0:08:45.240 Will get to that in a little while, But what 0:08:45.280 --> 0:08:49.359 I want to talk about now is the political process 0:08:49.400 --> 0:08:53.959 of taking what is a public space that's fallen into 0:08:54.120 --> 0:08:59.160 disrepair and has become dangerous and turning it into something else. Uh, 0:08:59.360 --> 0:09:02.280 you said, obviously it took you ninety days to prepare 0:09:02.400 --> 0:09:05.720 the plan and then six years to get the politics settled. 0:09:06.120 --> 0:09:09.800 Explain that, UM. Every everybody leaped in and said the 0:09:09.840 --> 0:09:14.120 idea of a privately managed space, UM and a program 0:09:14.240 --> 0:09:16.959 space was a bad idea. Many of them have never 0:09:17.000 --> 0:09:20.480 been in Brian Park. But the preservation movement jumped in 0:09:20.559 --> 0:09:24.000 with both feet to oppose me. But were they thinking 0:09:24.040 --> 0:09:26.160 you're gonna throw up in an office building and Brian 0:09:26.640 --> 0:09:29.920 or just we're against it philosophically there was There was 0:09:30.840 --> 0:09:33.040 parks in New York at the time, and the Parts 0:09:33.040 --> 0:09:36.000 commissioner said a good thing. At one point he said, 0:09:36.040 --> 0:09:37.719 you know, they don't all have to be managed in 0:09:37.760 --> 0:09:40.560 the same cookie cutter way. Let's try and experiment in 0:09:40.640 --> 0:09:42.839 one of them. Later three, because I took over two 0:09:42.840 --> 0:09:46.040 other parks in New York. But that contingent for the 0:09:46.040 --> 0:09:48.480 preservation world wanted them all to be random managed the 0:09:48.520 --> 0:09:52.440 same way, which was government in charge and government both 0:09:52.559 --> 0:09:55.920 spending and collecting methods, managing the profit and law statement, 0:09:55.960 --> 0:09:58.320 which is not a good recipe for success. So so 0:09:58.400 --> 0:10:00.800 you put together a nine day it took you ninety 0:10:00.840 --> 0:10:02.760 days to put together a plan. What were the key 0:10:02.800 --> 0:10:06.880 points in that plan? We invented something called programming, which 0:10:07.000 --> 0:10:09.680 is an urban parks, you can't really afford Barry to 0:10:09.800 --> 0:10:15.720 let um segments of the park be isolated. Um, it's 0:10:15.720 --> 0:10:17.880 not your Semite National Park where you don't need to 0:10:17.920 --> 0:10:21.920 program it's it's there are. Despite the reduction in New 0:10:22.000 --> 0:10:24.160 York City's crime rate, which we were a key part of, 0:10:24.360 --> 0:10:26.480 there are a lot of idiots walking around who will 0:10:26.559 --> 0:10:29.160 do bad things, scare women out of the park and whatever. 0:10:29.559 --> 0:10:32.280 So we invented programming. And if you walk into a 0:10:32.360 --> 0:10:34.240 park that either that one or the one we did 0:10:34.240 --> 0:10:36.280 in Dallas, the one we did in New York, you 0:10:36.320 --> 0:10:38.560 will see a lot of stuff going on that brings 0:10:38.600 --> 0:10:40.839 people into the park. And the more people were there, 0:10:40.840 --> 0:10:44.000 the safer it gets. The female ratios go up, which 0:10:44.000 --> 0:10:46.920 is a key indicator of park success. So we had that. 0:10:47.040 --> 0:10:49.560 We decided to do some food and beverage which had 0:10:49.559 --> 0:10:52.760 never been in the park. Restaurants and kiosks, um an 0:10:52.760 --> 0:10:56.520 elaborate budget with multiple revenue sources that would allow us 0:10:56.559 --> 0:11:00.080 to really do an excellent job running this almost on 0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:02.839 the scale that Disney Rouse and Rock Center had suggested. 0:11:03.440 --> 0:11:06.240 And um then we've rolled that out across the country, 0:11:06.280 --> 0:11:09.800 but in New York it was hard. Blue state political 0:11:09.840 --> 0:11:13.960 processes are thick, to be kind, and my chairman at 0:11:14.000 --> 0:11:17.480 the time said, somebody asked him about approvals. He said, 0:11:17.600 --> 0:11:21.520 everybody in the Western hemisphere and his brother has had 0:11:21.559 --> 0:11:25.520 to approve this twice, and that's why it took six years. 0:11:25.760 --> 0:11:28.080 It was a novel approach, so you would think that'd 0:11:28.120 --> 0:11:31.319 be a little skepticism from people saying, wait, you want 0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:34.400 who to take this over? But then that raises the question, 0:11:34.440 --> 0:11:36.959 how do you manage a park that size with a 0:11:37.520 --> 0:11:40.360 even in the nineteen eighties, with a hundred thousand dollar 0:11:40.400 --> 0:11:44.880 budget that doesn't pay for sanitation. Even the answers weren't 0:11:44.920 --> 0:11:47.360 that hard to figure out, but the politics were brutal. 0:11:47.360 --> 0:11:48.640 In fact that there was a point at which I 0:11:48.679 --> 0:11:51.760 considered giving up after six years, and I met a 0:11:51.880 --> 0:11:54.439 very bright land use lawyer, Steve Leftwitz, on a train 0:11:55.160 --> 0:11:57.200 and I said I was discouraged. He said, why are 0:11:57.200 --> 0:11:58.960 you discourage? This is going to happen. I said, what 0:11:59.040 --> 0:12:00.679 makes you think it's going to have? And they're fighting 0:12:00.720 --> 0:12:03.079 me at every turn. He said, there are four types 0:12:03.120 --> 0:12:05.640 of projects and they fit on a matrix neatly, something 0:12:05.679 --> 0:12:08.000 I've never gotten. I use it all the time. There 0:12:08.000 --> 0:12:11.679 are dumb projects and smart projects, good ideas, bad ideas, 0:12:11.760 --> 0:12:14.320 and then there are projects backed by powerful people and 0:12:14.360 --> 0:12:17.320 projects backed by powerless people. So he said, you can 0:12:17.360 --> 0:12:20.880 imagine how often bad ideas backed by powerless people happen. 0:12:20.960 --> 0:12:25.800 They almost never get adopted. He said, um, um, but 0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:28.000 this is a good idea back by power. He said, 0:12:28.040 --> 0:12:31.560 this is a good idea powerful people, and good idea 0:12:33.000 --> 0:12:38.880 really good ideas powerless people. Bad ideas powerful people. So 0:12:38.920 --> 0:12:41.440 he said, this is a fabulous idea. Your plan is great. 0:12:41.840 --> 0:12:45.120 The Rockefellers are behind it, so are the real estate owners. 0:12:45.160 --> 0:12:47.640 This is going to happen. Don't get discouraged, stop winning 0:12:47.720 --> 0:12:49.640 and go back to work. So that I needed that 0:12:49.679 --> 0:12:52.160 pep talk after six years of facing the public cross 0:12:52.200 --> 0:12:56.840 speaking of the real estate owners. The buildings adjacent to 0:12:56.920 --> 0:13:00.600 the park above and beyond the appreciation that the rest 0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:04.440 of the city has enjoyed has accumulated an additional two 0:13:04.480 --> 0:13:08.880 billion dollars in value just because of their proximity to 0:13:08.880 --> 0:13:10.839 the part. It was a real eye opener. The guys 0:13:10.880 --> 0:13:14.280 who owned the Grace building initially sold it to try Zekon, 0:13:14.360 --> 0:13:19.360 which then sold it to Brookfield. Um a very nice guy. 0:13:19.360 --> 0:13:20.760 He sat me down, He said, let me show you 0:13:20.800 --> 0:13:23.200 how much money you made this family. He said, really, 0:13:23.480 --> 0:13:26.800 let's let's assume it's about a twenty buck premium for 0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:29.199 Brian Park. Being this's good, he said, I think that's modest. 0:13:29.280 --> 0:13:32.600 But every square foot of our million three square feet 0:13:33.000 --> 0:13:35.280 went up in value over five to ten year period 0:13:35.280 --> 0:13:38.680 by twenty dollars as a result of your efforts. And 0:13:38.720 --> 0:13:40.680 he said, the that goes straight to the bottom line. 0:13:40.679 --> 0:13:42.840 It doesn't cost more to collect more rent. So he 0:13:42.880 --> 0:13:45.040 did the math for me twenty million dollars times one 0:13:45.080 --> 0:13:49.599 point three million twenty six million dollars and then he 0:13:49.640 --> 0:13:52.880 said the cap rate years. The cap rate at the 0:13:52.880 --> 0:13:56.240 time was five. So he said, okay, so twenty six 0:13:56.280 --> 0:13:59.520 divided by point oh five million dollars. He said, how 0:13:59.600 --> 0:14:01.920 much have we invested in this thing? I said, well, 0:14:01.960 --> 0:14:03.880 you guys gave a garden and you've been part of 0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:07.040 our business improvement districts, so I got a million bucks. 0:14:07.040 --> 0:14:09.400 He said, so five twenty x, he said, can I 0:14:09.440 --> 0:14:12.679 tell you we've never had a five X experience? Did 0:14:12.720 --> 0:14:14.880 you happen for more money? To hey, you guys should 0:14:14.920 --> 0:14:17.920 be putting. I told the story my next salary negotiation 0:14:18.000 --> 0:14:21.240 to the other board members and I said, why are 0:14:21.280 --> 0:14:23.880 you fighting me on twenty k This is um. There 0:14:23.880 --> 0:14:26.240 really was a lot of value created. So I now 0:14:26.280 --> 0:14:29.360 tell the story to prospective clients in other cities who 0:14:29.360 --> 0:14:32.680 were thinking of fixing their lobbies or doing other things 0:14:32.680 --> 0:14:35.480 that really aren't that remunerative for the ownership. But you 0:14:35.520 --> 0:14:38.440 take a public space and adjacent to the building and 0:14:38.480 --> 0:14:40.560 it's a home run for every that's a win win 0:14:40.600 --> 0:14:42.560 across the board. And right now in Dallas, we did 0:14:42.560 --> 0:14:44.560 a park, Clyde Warren Park, with the help of a 0:14:44.560 --> 0:14:48.920 bunch of Dallas billionaires. It's very successful and there's a 0:14:48.960 --> 0:14:51.320 real estate boom around it. It's a cap park over 0:14:51.400 --> 0:14:56.040 a formally open highway between that divided the city and 0:14:56.120 --> 0:14:58.960 half right uptown Dallas to the Arts district. And it's 0:14:59.120 --> 0:15:02.480 huge and i MC generator both for the private owners 0:15:02.520 --> 0:15:05.000 and then the city benefits from this. The uh we 0:15:05.040 --> 0:15:07.800 did an assessment last year. Thirty three million dollars in 0:15:07.840 --> 0:15:10.640 real estate tax has added to the city at Brian 0:15:10.760 --> 0:15:13.680 Park just for the thirty three adjacent properties. To say 0:15:13.680 --> 0:15:15.840 nothing with the guys who are blocked away, who are 0:15:15.920 --> 0:15:18.440 all arguing, you know, coming here because Brian Park is 0:15:18.440 --> 0:15:21.000 a block away, so it's a it's it's probably a 0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:23.760 nine figures the added real estate tax as a city's 0:15:23.800 --> 0:15:26.720 collecting as a result of Brian Park. You're listening to 0:15:26.840 --> 0:15:30.440 masters in business on Bloomberg Radio. My special guest today 0:15:30.600 --> 0:15:35.800 is Dan Bieerman of Biederman Development Ventures, and his company 0:15:35.840 --> 0:15:39.720 is the firm that really helped turn Brian Park around 0:15:39.880 --> 0:15:42.880 and a number of other parks, both in New York 0:15:42.920 --> 0:15:46.200 and throughout the United States and actually elsewhere in the world. 0:15:46.800 --> 0:15:49.600 Let's talk a little bit about your company mission and 0:15:50.080 --> 0:15:53.800 what should be the proper role of government in these 0:15:53.920 --> 0:15:59.360 in these public spaces. So, but by somewhat serendipity, you 0:15:59.480 --> 0:16:02.760 end up getting involved in Brian Park. A decade later, 0:16:03.240 --> 0:16:07.680 the park reopens, it's a huge success. It's literally a 0:16:07.800 --> 0:16:12.760 jewel in the midst of Manhattan. Everybody, everybody around it 0:16:12.800 --> 0:16:15.800 just loves it. I have lunch, they're pretty regularly, all 0:16:15.880 --> 0:16:18.920 the all the food vendors and all the stores adjacent 0:16:18.920 --> 0:16:21.800 to it. These guys just you know, they can't get 0:16:21.800 --> 0:16:25.000 people through the register fast. Um. You go in there 0:16:25.000 --> 0:16:27.360 on a on a bright spring day and it's wall 0:16:27.440 --> 0:16:30.560 to wall people. It's just it's just beautiful. Barrier. I 0:16:30.560 --> 0:16:33.840 should and I start to interrupt the As a job creator, 0:16:33.880 --> 0:16:36.280 these projects are enormous. Briant Park had one and a 0:16:36.280 --> 0:16:39.400 half jobs when we took it over. Now, between the restaurants, 0:16:39.400 --> 0:16:43.000 among the restaurant's kiosks. The programming we do there, it's 0:16:43.040 --> 0:16:45.800 about a thousand jobs really, and the park we're doing 0:16:45.800 --> 0:16:48.080 a new work. We have the same aspirations for that 0:16:48.160 --> 0:16:50.640 to create employment in a city like Nework that really 0:16:50.640 --> 0:16:52.960 needs so. So that leads me to my next question. 0:16:53.000 --> 0:16:55.680 So you finished Brian Park and it's a huge success. 0:16:56.720 --> 0:16:59.280 At that point, you're saying to yourself, gee, this is 0:16:59.360 --> 0:17:02.800 kind of a union space. It doesn't seem like anybody 0:17:02.800 --> 0:17:06.680 else is doing anything with this. How did you then say, Okay, 0:17:06.760 --> 0:17:08.560 we have this new model and we're going to take it. 0:17:08.800 --> 0:17:10.919 We'll take it national, all right? Was lucky. I had 0:17:10.960 --> 0:17:14.120 another product in Manhattan which is taking over whole neighborhoods 0:17:14.119 --> 0:17:16.879 through what are known as business improvement Districts s I 0:17:17.040 --> 0:17:20.200 d s. I see them every on street corners, people 0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:23.240 sweeping up, you see them throughout Manhattan. So we were 0:17:23.280 --> 0:17:25.560 the first to do it on a large scale basis. 0:17:25.560 --> 0:17:29.800 And my firm BRV actually does create them and doctor them. 0:17:29.840 --> 0:17:32.720 It's a smaller product because uh, and it's a b 0:17:32.880 --> 0:17:34.600 r V is a not for profit, Is that right? 0:17:34.920 --> 0:17:37.040 My My firm is a for profit company, which is 0:17:37.080 --> 0:17:40.200 the development profit Brian Park in thirty fourth Street or 0:17:40.280 --> 0:17:43.320 run is not for profits, but with private sector bias, 0:17:44.200 --> 0:17:49.840 we're only incidentally not for profits. So um uh. The 0:17:49.840 --> 0:17:52.919 there are numerous parks. The traditional way of fixing or 0:17:53.040 --> 0:17:56.560 creating parks is higher landscape architect come up with some 0:17:56.680 --> 0:18:00.240 ideas that are designed only, and then spend a lot 0:18:00.240 --> 0:18:03.200 of money and open it and I hope people show up. Um, 0:18:03.280 --> 0:18:05.960 you guys have a much more holistic approach. We start 0:18:06.000 --> 0:18:10.760 with programming and define define programming. It's not just movies 0:18:10.800 --> 0:18:14.000 on Fridays, exactly right. You use it a very different way. 0:18:14.200 --> 0:18:17.720 The word well said. It's a combination of things that 0:18:17.760 --> 0:18:21.040 will make audiences arrived not only at peak times like 0:18:21.160 --> 0:18:24.040 lunch and after work, but also in between. So in 0:18:24.119 --> 0:18:26.800 Brian Park you can do about forty free things and 0:18:27.119 --> 0:18:28.760 the park we have in Dallas. In the park we're 0:18:28.800 --> 0:18:30.800 doing a new work. You can learn to knit, you 0:18:30.800 --> 0:18:34.200 can learn a language, you can listen to authors push 0:18:34.280 --> 0:18:36.919 their book, you can listen to business talks. This is 0:18:36.960 --> 0:18:40.439 all spread throughout the park. That's what should drive the 0:18:40.480 --> 0:18:43.400 design and the turnaround, not spending a lot of money 0:18:43.400 --> 0:18:46.080 in a fancy architect. There are just too many cases 0:18:46.440 --> 0:18:50.399 where fancy l a's or landscape architects or architects have 0:18:50.480 --> 0:18:52.879 been paid to make a great space, and then the 0:18:52.920 --> 0:18:55.920 space opens and nobody comes. Programming is what drives people. 0:18:56.080 --> 0:19:00.320 It begins with bringing the crowds there, and how everything 0:19:00.359 --> 0:19:04.520 looks is subordinate to that utility, to the functionality of 0:19:04.520 --> 0:19:05.959 the park. You could you don't want to do this, 0:19:06.000 --> 0:19:10.119 but you could theoretically have a busy park with relatively 0:19:10.160 --> 0:19:14.720 cruddy uh surfaces and the like. The public notices the 0:19:14.800 --> 0:19:17.800 activities more than they notice the appointments. But obviously we 0:19:17.840 --> 0:19:21.640 try to be exquisite in the physical way, also by 0:19:21.800 --> 0:19:25.560 paying attention to every detail, no letter, no graffiti, um 0:19:25.800 --> 0:19:29.040 washing everything. Having exceptionally good public restrooms, which is a 0:19:29.080 --> 0:19:33.359 real thing. That's the nicest public restaurant. Ourselves on it, 0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:35.840 and it's hard to do. We learned a lot about 0:19:35.840 --> 0:19:38.640 restrooms that in my NBA class, I'm the only one 0:19:38.680 --> 0:19:42.720 who was a minor in restroom management. I think nobody's 0:19:42.800 --> 0:19:45.680 what's interested in that. There's literally a book called where 0:19:45.680 --> 0:19:47.520 to Go, and it gives you a list of all 0:19:47.560 --> 0:19:52.800 the public whatever in New York and the Brian Park 0:19:54.320 --> 0:19:56.639 are the nicest bathrooms in this We try to be 0:19:56.680 --> 0:19:58.119 as good as the ones in the plaza and the 0:19:58.160 --> 0:20:00.320 st regis, and we kind of send people up there. 0:20:00.400 --> 0:20:04.400 They're they're literally bouquets of flowers in the restroom. It's 0:20:04.760 --> 0:20:08.200 not what you would expect from a public park restaurant. 0:20:08.240 --> 0:20:10.480 We had to convince women that we had a public 0:20:10.520 --> 0:20:12.640 restroom they could trust. So the first thing you see 0:20:12.720 --> 0:20:14.800 when you go through the door is the bouquet of flowers. 0:20:15.000 --> 0:20:16.800 And we can see women saying, well, they're not going 0:20:16.880 --> 0:20:18.159 to do that if this is going to be a 0:20:18.200 --> 0:20:22.480 crummy place to go. So that's that's that's a That 0:20:22.560 --> 0:20:29.240 was a lot of psychology in development spaces, including including bathrooms. 0:20:29.240 --> 0:20:31.120 And in the last minute we have in this segment, 0:20:31.800 --> 0:20:35.520 let's talk just about uh, the idea of governance. How 0:20:35.560 --> 0:20:38.119 do you govern a park this size. It's good to 0:20:38.160 --> 0:20:40.840 get a group together. If if it has to be nonprofits, 0:20:40.840 --> 0:20:43.920 so be it. But the group should have property owners 0:20:43.920 --> 0:20:47.400 who have a a real stake. UM. Some public officials can't 0:20:47.440 --> 0:20:49.480 be a majority of them, because otherwise you're off to 0:20:49.480 --> 0:20:53.200 the races with the way government's always operated. And then 0:20:53.240 --> 0:20:56.080 other people who are interested. Tenants are a good group 0:20:56.119 --> 0:21:01.520 to include, UM and UM solent to staff as well. 0:21:01.560 --> 0:21:03.639 As money. Yeah, that's right, and I you know, you know, 0:21:03.680 --> 0:21:07.399 it's not a dictatorship. I have to answer to a board. 0:21:07.440 --> 0:21:09.760 But after thirty five years of doing this, they tend 0:21:09.760 --> 0:21:11.840 to concede that I know what I'm doing, so I 0:21:11.880 --> 0:21:13.760 get a lot of freedom to run the thing the 0:21:13.800 --> 0:21:16.119 way I want. I'm Barry Ritt Helps. You're listening to 0:21:16.240 --> 0:21:19.600 Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio. My special guest today 0:21:19.800 --> 0:21:24.000 is Dan Biederman of Bietterman Development Ventures. They are the 0:21:24.040 --> 0:21:28.960 firm that helped turn around Brian Park and literally dozens 0:21:28.960 --> 0:21:32.680 of other parks throughout the country. And before the break, 0:21:32.720 --> 0:21:37.719 we were talking about the proper role of government in 0:21:37.760 --> 0:21:40.560 these public spaces and and so let's get into that 0:21:41.000 --> 0:21:45.800 what should be the proper role of government the faults 0:21:45.800 --> 0:21:50.080 of government and running services besides parks, but parks is 0:21:50.480 --> 0:21:54.840 part of it is they tend to over uh spend 0:21:55.080 --> 0:21:58.520 and undercollect so the profit and law statement comes out 0:21:58.520 --> 0:22:03.880 as skew. They're for forcing them to assess people who 0:22:03.880 --> 0:22:06.120 are the taxpayers a lot more than they might otherwise 0:22:06.119 --> 0:22:08.440 have to. Now, when we were talking about Brian Park 0:22:08.480 --> 0:22:10.600 in the beginning, you said they had a hundred thousand 0:22:10.640 --> 0:22:13.920 dollar budget in the nineteen eighties. That seems like nothing, 0:22:14.600 --> 0:22:16.920 that that was just neglect. But in the cases where 0:22:16.920 --> 0:22:20.760 government does something a new, they tend to make deals 0:22:20.760 --> 0:22:24.639 that are above market on the employees side, and then 0:22:24.680 --> 0:22:28.080 there are revenue sources that they could be collecting from that. 0:22:28.240 --> 0:22:31.480 Because it's not a for profit company, nobody pays attention 0:22:31.520 --> 0:22:34.959 to the Most governments have a revenue source or two, 0:22:35.080 --> 0:22:38.679 mostly taxes and then some fines, but the private sector 0:22:38.720 --> 0:22:41.120 looks for every dollar it can in many different ways. 0:22:41.119 --> 0:22:45.760 So Brian Park has five different revenue sources. We collect 0:22:45.960 --> 0:22:48.720 from the restaurants and chios in the park over three 0:22:48.760 --> 0:22:52.560 million dollars a year in rent. We have sponsors of 0:22:52.600 --> 0:22:55.560 some of our more prominent activities like the skating rink 0:22:55.560 --> 0:22:58.240 and winter. Bank of America has been fabulous sponsor for 0:22:58.280 --> 0:23:01.520 three years. Their new headquarters is right on the corner 0:23:01.520 --> 0:23:04.359 of the park opposite directly opposite forty and they've been 0:23:04.440 --> 0:23:08.000 ending America terrific. HSBC is a sponsor. Southwest Airlines has 0:23:08.320 --> 0:23:11.399 naming rights to a chios there um and so, and 0:23:11.440 --> 0:23:14.200 we've had events from well, I'll get to that later. 0:23:14.240 --> 0:23:17.280 The sponsorships a loan or about five million dollars the 0:23:17.359 --> 0:23:22.480 events we have introducing products. Everybody from Starbucks to Microsoft 0:23:22.600 --> 0:23:25.960 to uh T Mobile has introduced products in Brian Park 0:23:25.960 --> 0:23:28.760 because of its prominence. Doesn't take much time and it's rare, 0:23:28.840 --> 0:23:30.840 but when they do it, we make them pay for it. 0:23:31.040 --> 0:23:33.399 That's another million and a half. And then there's a 0:23:33.440 --> 0:23:36.760 surrounding business improvement district we mentioned that's about a million 0:23:36.800 --> 0:23:38.919 and a half also, and then drives and dribs of 0:23:38.960 --> 0:23:42.520 other things. We do some merchandizing, not very successfully. Total 0:23:42.640 --> 0:23:45.080 of about twelve million dollars in revenue. So that's how 0:23:45.080 --> 0:23:48.560 we got to that. Didn't a rock Center and uh 0:23:48.680 --> 0:23:51.600 A rouse number. So if this wasn't if this wasn't 0:23:51.760 --> 0:23:56.359 a U corporation running this, what would the city be 0:23:56.480 --> 0:24:00.560 spending on on Brian Park on its own? They probably 0:24:00.960 --> 0:24:02.760 by this point I figured it out a bit and 0:24:02.800 --> 0:24:06.840 have a bigger budget, but but not twelve million dollars 0:24:06.840 --> 0:24:11.320 and it would be heavy in um you talk about 0:24:11.320 --> 0:24:14.439 minimum wage changes, this with the employees or the porters 0:24:14.480 --> 0:24:17.479 would be making thirty dollars an hour. That's not the market. 0:24:18.119 --> 0:24:20.880 So you're nice to your people and you're generous with them, 0:24:20.880 --> 0:24:22.919 but you can't pay them. You can't over pay, you 0:24:22.920 --> 0:24:27.399 can't pay. The pension deals are so unsustainable, and states 0:24:27.400 --> 0:24:30.480 like New Jersey and Illinois that those states are constantly 0:24:30.480 --> 0:24:34.080 threatened with bankruptcy. Truth, So you you can't do that 0:24:34.119 --> 0:24:36.399 if you're a private operator of a public space. A 0:24:36.440 --> 0:24:39.800 little trivia about Illinois, they stopped paying out their lottery 0:24:39.840 --> 0:24:42.960 winners for a while because they literally didn't have the money. 0:24:43.000 --> 0:24:45.600 So not only is the whole thing a sucker bet 0:24:45.680 --> 0:24:49.000 that the odds are dramatically against you winning, but even 0:24:49.040 --> 0:24:51.040 if you win, you may not get paid because now 0:24:51.080 --> 0:24:55.200 you have counterparty risk, which is really quite amazing. So 0:24:55.200 --> 0:24:57.880 so let's talk about some of these other parks and 0:24:57.960 --> 0:25:01.680 how the government there interact with the private sector. So 0:25:01.800 --> 0:25:05.440 in Dallas, you have the Clyde Warren Park, and that's 0:25:05.480 --> 0:25:08.600 sort of an unusual situation because you had a highway 0:25:08.720 --> 0:25:12.399 kind of dividing the city in half. How did the 0:25:12.440 --> 0:25:17.080 park change that kept the highway and we did a 0:25:17.119 --> 0:25:20.640 beautiful park with a ton of activity. And there's some 0:25:21.200 --> 0:25:23.920 very wealthy people and public spirited people in Dallas. Jody 0:25:24.000 --> 0:25:27.760 grant um and and it was ahead with his wife, Sheila, 0:25:27.880 --> 0:25:30.840 and they made a major difference by making a deal 0:25:30.880 --> 0:25:33.520 with the mayor that the private sector would essentially finance 0:25:33.880 --> 0:25:36.399 the park and a little bit more if the state 0:25:36.440 --> 0:25:39.359 of Texas and the city financed the and a little 0:25:39.359 --> 0:25:44.879 federal help from uh uh federal funds. UH did the cap. 0:25:45.280 --> 0:25:47.159 So it was a good You say, the cap? What is? 0:25:47.240 --> 0:25:50.360 What is the cap? Essentially A it's it's currently being 0:25:50.359 --> 0:25:53.120 thought of in many other cities. It's covering the highway 0:25:53.200 --> 0:25:57.640 so that the noise of an interstate does not ruin 0:25:57.680 --> 0:26:01.320 the adjacent neighborhoods in the city. Atlanta's considering it now 0:26:01.600 --> 0:26:03.240 l A. I don't think l A is going to 0:26:03.280 --> 0:26:04.800 get there because the costs are gonna be too eye. 0:26:04.800 --> 0:26:07.960 And the great thing about Texas is construction costs are 0:26:08.000 --> 0:26:13.080 incredibly reasonable. Why is that? Uh? An expensive labor from 0:26:13.119 --> 0:26:15.240 over the border of sense of unions has something to 0:26:15.320 --> 0:26:19.080 do it. This project, soup to nuts, including the park, 0:26:19.160 --> 0:26:22.760 was a D three million dollars. I guarantee you in 0:26:22.800 --> 0:26:24.760 the Northeast that would have been half a billion and 0:26:24.960 --> 0:26:27.399 at least and wouldn't have happened either. But if it 0:26:27.440 --> 0:26:29.879 had happened, would have been happened. Speaking of the Northeast, 0:26:29.920 --> 0:26:31.560 before I want to ask you about well, let's go 0:26:31.680 --> 0:26:34.280 right to Canal Side in Buffalo. So this was a 0:26:34.359 --> 0:26:38.800 vacant space that was kind of just being ignored. What 0:26:38.960 --> 0:26:41.440 happened with that that space, Well, they've already started to 0:26:41.480 --> 0:26:43.880 be fair before we got there. It's a very good 0:26:44.000 --> 0:26:46.840 and give government Gunner Cuomo some credit. It's a very 0:26:46.880 --> 0:26:51.280 good state agency Erie Canal Harvard Development Corporation, which run 0:26:51.280 --> 0:26:53.879 by smart people, and they they liked the idea of 0:26:53.920 --> 0:26:58.160 the programming and they've really energized the area, um with 0:26:58.200 --> 0:27:00.800 not so much money of the taxpayer as some of 0:27:00.800 --> 0:27:04.639 the other elements of Buffalo. Uh. And you know, I've 0:27:04.680 --> 0:27:08.199 got a public space with concerts and and food and 0:27:08.240 --> 0:27:12.080 beverage and skating rank that's really a credit to downtown Buffalo. 0:27:12.119 --> 0:27:15.440 And uh there's development that's been generated around it, partly 0:27:15.480 --> 0:27:19.119 by the space, partly just by good Buffalo developers like 0:27:19.160 --> 0:27:23.280 Benderson and the owners of the Buffalo Sabers doing major things. 0:27:23.320 --> 0:27:25.560 So if you haven't been in Buffalo, awhile, it's worth 0:27:25.560 --> 0:27:28.159 looking at the real progress there. So two things I 0:27:28.160 --> 0:27:31.840 would be remiss if I didn't discuss. One is the 0:27:31.920 --> 0:27:36.160 high Line Park in Manhattan, which talk about real estate 0:27:36.160 --> 0:27:42.280 prices only unbelievable that's all. Now you're what was your um, 0:27:42.600 --> 0:27:46.399 I've said when I was describing this conversation to people 0:27:46.440 --> 0:27:49.439 in advance, I've said, if you like the high Line, 0:27:50.000 --> 0:27:53.400 which is a huge hit amongst both New York City 0:27:53.400 --> 0:27:57.240 residents and tourists, I think that never would have happened 0:27:57.280 --> 0:27:59.320 if it wasn't for the Bryant Park. I don't know 0:27:59.359 --> 0:28:00.760 if I can take it for it, but I will 0:28:00.760 --> 0:28:05.840 say I'm giving you a little bit thank you. Jamestown. Uh, 0:28:05.880 --> 0:28:08.200 the owner adjacent paid me a little bit of money 0:28:08.240 --> 0:28:11.760 to advise Rob Hammond, who's the U one of the 0:28:11.800 --> 0:28:14.240 founders of Friends of the high Line, and he listened 0:28:14.280 --> 0:28:16.399 to what we said. He was he was a good client. 0:28:16.880 --> 0:28:20.520 So I only had a minor role, but they did 0:28:20.520 --> 0:28:22.920 go for some of the stuff that we did in brand. 0:28:23.080 --> 0:28:26.119 It's worked out really well. And Um there's a park 0:28:26.320 --> 0:28:30.080 that's I believe it's in the midst of of um 0:28:30.119 --> 0:28:34.439 construction that was a former subway station that's reopening the 0:28:34.520 --> 0:28:37.399 low Line. Yeah, but they're trying to model after the 0:28:37.480 --> 0:28:39.840 high Line, and it's kind of clever, but it is underground. 0:28:39.840 --> 0:28:42.320 It doesn't have the views that thought a little darker. Yes, 0:28:42.760 --> 0:28:44.440 I don't know much about it, but they did call 0:28:44.520 --> 0:28:50.120 to ask some questions. It's nice to so outside of Manhattan, 0:28:50.120 --> 0:28:52.280 outside of New York, what are the areas have you 0:28:52.280 --> 0:28:55.560 guys been working in and and what other successes have 0:28:55.680 --> 0:28:58.520 you had in the United States or the the the 0:28:58.520 --> 0:29:00.920 ones we always point to that are really finished our Dallas, 0:29:00.960 --> 0:29:04.280 Pittsburgh and Newark. And Pittsburgh, what used to be a 0:29:04.280 --> 0:29:06.880 parking lot next to the Cathedral of Learning was one 0:29:06.920 --> 0:29:11.200 of our early parks. It's called Shenley Plaza. Terrific improvement 0:29:11.200 --> 0:29:13.160 in Pittsburgh's a great city to work in and there's 0:29:13.200 --> 0:29:15.080 a lot of good stuff in new Work. We don't 0:29:15.080 --> 0:29:17.400 think of anything getting done when we think of New Wark, 0:29:17.480 --> 0:29:20.120 what what was that park? Thanks to Ray Chambers, who's 0:29:20.280 --> 0:29:23.600 UH buyout guy, who then devoted the rest of his 0:29:23.680 --> 0:29:28.440 career to fixing downtown Newark and Mayor Booker the UH 0:29:28.480 --> 0:29:31.200 and PROW which has been a key backer along with 0:29:31.200 --> 0:29:35.440 a few others potential and prudentials right there. They their 0:29:35.480 --> 0:29:38.680 foundation has been deeply involved. We really took a part 0:29:38.840 --> 0:29:41.480 very similar in its role there to Brian Park and 0:29:41.520 --> 0:29:43.840 have turned it into a lively space after years of 0:29:43.840 --> 0:29:46.960 it being vacant. It's called Military Park. It's between the 0:29:47.000 --> 0:29:50.920 arena and the New Jersey Performing Arts Center. PROW just 0:29:51.000 --> 0:29:53.920 built a new headquarters type building on top of it, 0:29:54.080 --> 0:29:57.880 right next to it. And there were some who said, 0:29:58.000 --> 0:30:00.360 and I always annoyed me, Well, Bryant Park can only 0:30:00.400 --> 0:30:02.080 be done where there are a lot of yuppies around 0:30:02.080 --> 0:30:05.080 and huge office buildings, and and and and it wouldn't 0:30:05.080 --> 0:30:08.320 it's not relevant to the minority community. Newark's a majority 0:30:08.400 --> 0:30:13.680 minority city. And uh, they have been excellent. The residents 0:30:13.800 --> 0:30:17.800 and office workers around there have been excellent patrons of 0:30:17.880 --> 0:30:19.760 the park. So it's it's a kind of weird thing 0:30:19.840 --> 0:30:23.680 to say minorities don't like parks and outdoor spaces. That's 0:30:23.680 --> 0:30:28.080 a weird perspective. They're actually the Newark residents who are 0:30:28.400 --> 0:30:31.080 using it are actually better for us because they'll they'll 0:30:31.120 --> 0:30:34.280 spend a little more time there, are a little more patient. Um, 0:30:34.920 --> 0:30:38.800 they're a little less on their iPhones and um. It's 0:30:38.920 --> 0:30:42.640 it's been a wonderful thing to see the social fabric 0:30:42.720 --> 0:30:45.320 of the park change. We put a restaurants, tiny restaurant 0:30:45.360 --> 0:30:49.920 in that's Salzburger's pretty inexpensively and that was hard to arrange. 0:30:49.960 --> 0:30:52.400 You're doing free WiFi, and all of these parks wif 0:30:53.200 --> 0:30:55.800 park is a hugely successful WiFi thing, and they're hard 0:30:55.840 --> 0:30:57.920 to set up. Everybody says they have WiFi, but half 0:30:57.920 --> 0:31:00.040 the time doesn't work very well. But the one of 0:31:00.120 --> 0:31:02.280 Newark really is working well, and we worked well with 0:31:03.320 --> 0:31:06.960 the government of Mayor Booker. Mayor Baraka has has continued. 0:31:07.240 --> 0:31:10.040 He's been great. He's visited the park three times to 0:31:10.120 --> 0:31:13.440 read his poetry and play chess and the like. And Um, 0:31:13.480 --> 0:31:16.560 the WiFi system was specked by the city and we 0:31:16.640 --> 0:31:19.600 extended beyond the park and now you've got free WiFi 0:31:19.680 --> 0:31:22.959 in that vicinity. Really in new Work, we've been speaking 0:31:23.000 --> 0:31:26.959 with Dan Biederman of Beeteman Redevelopment Ventures discussing the public 0:31:27.000 --> 0:31:30.720 and private space. If you enjoy this conversation, be sure 0:31:30.760 --> 0:31:33.160 and stick around for a podcast extras where we keep 0:31:33.200 --> 0:31:36.880 the digital tape rolling and continue chatting. Be sure and 0:31:36.960 --> 0:31:40.880 check out my daily column on Bloomberg View dot com 0:31:41.080 --> 0:31:44.840 or follow me on Twitter at rid Halts. I'm Barry 0:31:44.920 --> 0:31:47.400 rid Halts. So you've been listening to Masters in Business 0:31:47.720 --> 0:31:51.840 on Bloomberg Radio. Welcome to the podcast. Um, Dan, thank 0:31:51.880 --> 0:31:53.720 you so much for doing this. This has really been 0:31:53.760 --> 0:31:56.600 a fascinating Charlie makes fun of me every time I 0:31:56.640 --> 0:31:59.840 say that, but this is fascinating stuff. And in the 0:32:00.040 --> 0:32:03.080 intro I said, you may be the person who is 0:32:03.520 --> 0:32:09.160 on a fractional basis least known to greatest impact to 0:32:09.280 --> 0:32:12.800 the public. I can't count how many people do you 0:32:12.800 --> 0:32:16.600 guys track through Brian Park in any given year? Six 0:32:16.640 --> 0:32:20.120 million different visits, not six million different individuals, but there 0:32:20.120 --> 0:32:22.640 are six million visits a year. It's it's the most 0:32:22.680 --> 0:32:25.520 crowded per acre public space in the world, in the 0:32:25.560 --> 0:32:28.800 whole world. I gotta think more people go through um 0:32:29.200 --> 0:32:32.040 Central Park, but that's hundreds and hundreds of acre. Their 0:32:32.320 --> 0:32:35.920 visitor count I think is in the twenty four million range, 0:32:35.960 --> 0:32:39.040 ining like that, But but they're hundreds of times were 0:32:39.080 --> 0:32:43.600 six acres but there's no People always throw up possibilities. 0:32:43.640 --> 0:32:46.840 Trafalgar Square, I said, Trafugar Square is empty compared to us. 0:32:46.840 --> 0:32:49.960 There's really Yeah, well, they have big events, but there 0:32:49.960 --> 0:32:53.440 that's a one off, right, What about places in Shanghai 0:32:53.560 --> 0:32:56.840 or Hong Kong. You know, Shanghai doesn't have anything with 0:32:56.920 --> 0:32:59.840 that kind of congestion. I've seen some great parks in Beijing, 0:33:00.520 --> 0:33:03.400 but they get crowded they send in the text, it's 0:33:03.440 --> 0:33:06.280 not it's not as crowded as Bryant Briant as jammed 0:33:06.480 --> 0:33:08.800 and we we like it that way. Do you UM, 0:33:08.920 --> 0:33:11.560 have you guys looked overseas? Have people reached out to 0:33:11.600 --> 0:33:13.840 you from other countries other places? You know? I haven't 0:33:13.920 --> 0:33:16.480 made a big thing of it. I've There are five 0:33:16.520 --> 0:33:22.520 countries where I've done some advising the UK, Singapore, Finland, UM, 0:33:22.640 --> 0:33:27.360 Israel and Canada. Yeah, and UM, Singapore, so that's pretty 0:33:27.400 --> 0:33:30.280 far afield that they have something called the Urban Redevelopment 0:33:30.440 --> 0:33:33.920 Agency which is very successful and UM I've been on 0:33:33.960 --> 0:33:37.600 their advisory panel once or twice. And basically, though our 0:33:37.640 --> 0:33:40.000 work is in North America, I've done a fair amount 0:33:40.000 --> 0:33:44.280 of work in Toronto now and UM the same basic concept. 0:33:44.360 --> 0:33:48.280 They take your model and reproduced. Do you have any competitors? 0:33:48.280 --> 0:33:50.760 Are there any other businesses doing what you do? It's 0:33:50.800 --> 0:33:54.880 interesting the competition is to do parts the traditional way 0:33:55.640 --> 0:34:00.640 with landscape architects and architects, and that's not us. UM. 0:34:00.720 --> 0:34:04.240 We have a really narrow niche. And UH, there are 0:34:04.240 --> 0:34:07.440 a couple of economic consulting firms that say they do 0:34:07.480 --> 0:34:10.080 what we do, but they've kind of been derivatives, but 0:34:10.520 --> 0:34:13.560 we're it's it's a very narrow niche, which is the disadvantage. 0:34:13.640 --> 0:34:16.120 But the great thing is that we created the field. 0:34:16.120 --> 0:34:18.640 You own the space. So we got a lot of 0:34:18.680 --> 0:34:21.399 calls and we don't. We do some marketing, but not much. 0:34:21.440 --> 0:34:24.359 We mainly get incoming inquiries from people who have been 0:34:24.480 --> 0:34:26.959 visited our places. That that was my next question is 0:34:26.960 --> 0:34:30.120 is there enough work to keep a firm busy full time? 0:34:30.719 --> 0:34:34.640 How many employees are thirteen employees, nine full time, four 0:34:34.719 --> 0:34:38.240 part time? It's very small and uh, there's plenty of work. 0:34:38.280 --> 0:34:41.759 I'm as my wife predicted UM a long time ago. 0:34:41.840 --> 0:34:44.040 Your only problem is going to be staffing the work. 0:34:44.080 --> 0:34:46.520 They're gonna be lined up around the block when you open. 0:34:46.560 --> 0:34:48.880 This took a while for that to happen. But it's busy. 0:34:49.040 --> 0:34:51.880 So what other Let's let's go over some other parks 0:34:51.920 --> 0:34:55.160 elsewhere where else have you Well? These are cities were 0:34:55.200 --> 0:34:59.960 in starting from the west, Honolulu, San Francisco, Oakland, Actu 0:35:00.000 --> 0:35:10.320 Really Now l A, Tempe, Arizona, Houston, Dallas, Green Bay, Detroit, Buffalo, Toronto, Atlanta, 0:35:10.640 --> 0:35:15.520 um Newark, Greensboro, North Carolina, Boston. So we've talked about 0:35:15.560 --> 0:35:20.520 we've talked about these huge successes. What hasn't worked out? Um. 0:35:20.600 --> 0:35:25.200 Once in a while, a company, but more often a 0:35:25.280 --> 0:35:29.640 government wants you to answer the questions they ask you 0:35:29.680 --> 0:35:32.120 as a consult in a certain way. And I have 0:35:32.200 --> 0:35:34.000 to give my little speech which I was taught when 0:35:34.000 --> 0:35:36.200 I was at my first job after business school. American 0:35:36.239 --> 0:35:39.840 management systems really good, smart, gut bunch of guys no 0:35:39.880 --> 0:35:44.160 longer exists. They were sold, but they said, as a consultant, 0:35:44.160 --> 0:35:45.719 you need to tell the client. Do you want me 0:35:45.760 --> 0:35:47.200 to tell you what you want to hear or you 0:35:47.239 --> 0:35:49.000 want me to tell you what you need to hear? 0:35:49.440 --> 0:35:52.279 The right answer. Um. Once in a while we get 0:35:52.320 --> 0:35:56.480 a client who wants us to give them the answer 0:35:56.520 --> 0:35:58.319 they wanted to hear when they brought us in, which 0:35:58.320 --> 0:36:01.400 is very often the wrong answer. And it's usually a 0:36:01.440 --> 0:36:05.040 government agency, but sometimes a private player. UM. And then 0:36:05.080 --> 0:36:07.520 the the other kind of client. That's the challenges. They 0:36:07.560 --> 0:36:10.440 are more interested in how much they pay than in 0:36:10.960 --> 0:36:13.080 how much success they have. They only look at the 0:36:13.080 --> 0:36:16.359 expense side of the ledger with you. UM. So we've 0:36:16.400 --> 0:36:19.440 had a few of those, but I would say of 0:36:19.480 --> 0:36:22.280 the client experiences have been great, and I speak highly 0:36:22.360 --> 0:36:23.759 of all of them, and I hope they speak well 0:36:23.760 --> 0:36:26.160 of me. So when you set one of these up, 0:36:26.440 --> 0:36:30.960 how much of the funding is coming from outside government? 0:36:31.000 --> 0:36:35.680 From revenue you generate in the park, plus whatever initial 0:36:35.719 --> 0:36:40.200 seed funding comes from the surrounding good questionities, real estate companies, whatever. 0:36:40.239 --> 0:36:44.120 We start from the desire to have it all private funding, 0:36:44.600 --> 0:36:47.920 all private funding. I didn't make a big fetish of 0:36:47.960 --> 0:36:51.600 that in the broadcast, But the the aim is not 0:36:51.719 --> 0:36:55.200 to be beholden to government practices because you don't have 0:36:55.239 --> 0:36:58.799 government money. Uh So Brent Park has not taken any 0:36:58.840 --> 0:37:03.479 government money of editing level, uh since it was founded. Wait, 0:37:03.520 --> 0:37:06.400 so that the park is running for all these years, 0:37:06.400 --> 0:37:10.279 since it opened in nine and New York City taxpayers 0:37:10.280 --> 0:37:12.600 are not paying for that, not a penny they actually 0:37:12.640 --> 0:37:15.680 there was an initial kind of good by payment that 0:37:16.120 --> 0:37:21.160 ended in and since twenty years no no government money, 0:37:21.320 --> 0:37:25.160 and some clients can't afford that. But generally, meaning there's 0:37:25.200 --> 0:37:28.720 not the density that'll cover that. I mean, not only 0:37:29.040 --> 0:37:32.279 they aren't the varieties of programming that would allow you 0:37:32.400 --> 0:37:36.400 to exclude government money. Um. I'm trying to think of 0:37:36.480 --> 0:37:38.640 an example where we're gonna have to take government money 0:37:38.760 --> 0:37:42.719 like I would think San Francisco has enough population coursing 0:37:42.800 --> 0:37:46.239 through a downtown space that that should be easy. But 0:37:46.280 --> 0:37:49.840 Temple Arizona maybe not the same volume of people, not 0:37:49.960 --> 0:37:54.680 as not as concentrated um uh density. But we're talking 0:37:54.719 --> 0:37:58.239 to the Tempee people about a possible use of the 0:37:58.280 --> 0:38:01.600 techniques we use to build our capital plan, which is 0:38:01.719 --> 0:38:05.919 borrowing money um using the government's in New York City 0:38:05.920 --> 0:38:09.880 triple tax exempt capacity issue a bond in order to 0:38:09.880 --> 0:38:12.520 build issue bonds. We repay they they're not on the 0:38:12.520 --> 0:38:15.040 hook for penty of it, and so it's just an 0:38:15.040 --> 0:38:18.239 expensive source of capital. Yeah, we're the debt service and 0:38:18.320 --> 0:38:21.640 that's been fifty million dollars total over the over the run. 0:38:22.160 --> 0:38:24.400 And that's how Grand Central and thirty fourth Street got 0:38:24.440 --> 0:38:30.080 built with that technique, rather than asking government for capital funds, 0:38:30.120 --> 0:38:34.200 which is always a very difficult and in eastern and 0:38:34.280 --> 0:38:36.879 West coast cities it's usually tied to some labor deal. 0:38:36.920 --> 0:38:39.160 It's very expensive. So so let's talk a little bit 0:38:39.200 --> 0:38:43.600 about the thirty four Street Business Development company you have 0:38:44.560 --> 0:38:47.120 that goes from the Empire State Building fifth and thirty 0:38:47.120 --> 0:38:51.319 four little east of that actually to Macy's where you 0:38:51.440 --> 0:38:54.640 have what is that horrors Greeley Park or something really 0:38:54.680 --> 0:38:56.720 part to the south and Herald Square to the north, 0:38:57.360 --> 0:39:00.000 and all the way west past that to the edge 0:39:00.000 --> 0:39:03.879 of Hudson Yard's past Penn Station, the post office. That's 0:39:03.920 --> 0:39:07.320 all an area run by a business improvement district. Not everything, 0:39:07.360 --> 0:39:10.000 but most of what you see there as a member 0:39:10.000 --> 0:39:13.359 of the public, the litter collection, the Capital plant, UH, 0:39:13.440 --> 0:39:16.400 security officers parks is run by our b I D. 0:39:17.120 --> 0:39:20.719 And that's funded privately as well, all private money. We 0:39:20.760 --> 0:39:25.120 don't accept any government money. Really that that's quite fascinating. UM. 0:39:25.280 --> 0:39:27.600 Tell me about a challenge. What was a park that 0:39:27.640 --> 0:39:30.200 turned out to be successful that when you first came 0:39:30.239 --> 0:39:32.160 across it you had to scratch your head a little 0:39:32.160 --> 0:39:36.240 bit and say, here's what's going on here, uh Seattle. UM, 0:39:36.280 --> 0:39:38.960 that's hugely successful. In that case, we're not running it. 0:39:39.040 --> 0:39:42.319 We very often at that distance tell them what to 0:39:42.400 --> 0:39:44.160 do and then back off. And there was a very 0:39:44.160 --> 0:39:47.560 good group that Downtown Seattle Association that took our recommendations 0:39:47.680 --> 0:39:51.359 whole and UM running with it. It's usually successful. It's 0:39:51.360 --> 0:39:55.360 called Occidental Park. It's a couple of blocks from the 0:39:55.400 --> 0:39:58.840 Stadia there UH in the neighborhood known as Pioneer Square. 0:39:59.280 --> 0:40:02.080 This was a truly violent space. It was drugs, a 0:40:02.080 --> 0:40:04.720 lot like Brian Park at the beginning, drugs and really 0:40:04.760 --> 0:40:08.120 bad guys hanging out and victimizing people. TOMPs of tech 0:40:08.160 --> 0:40:10.359 companies a couple of blocks away, none of them were 0:40:10.440 --> 0:40:13.359 using it. The employees weren't there. So we told them 0:40:13.400 --> 0:40:16.239 how to program and how to spend a little bit 0:40:16.280 --> 0:40:19.600 of money without government on various things. The Seattle Parks 0:40:19.640 --> 0:40:23.759 Foundation in Downtown Seattle Association ran with it, and it's 0:40:24.120 --> 0:40:26.840 a real turnaround. I keep track of it long distance. 0:40:27.040 --> 0:40:30.799 We're done, and they were very grateful. John Schules is 0:40:30.800 --> 0:40:33.359 then now a new head of the Downtown Seattle Association. 0:40:33.440 --> 0:40:35.759 Why do I know that name? He's He's It came 0:40:35.840 --> 0:40:38.319 up through the ranks. But John said, this has been 0:40:38.360 --> 0:40:40.960 a huge success, and we're really grateful. I'm sure they're 0:40:41.000 --> 0:40:44.000 spreading the word that this is a great approach, quite 0:40:44.239 --> 0:40:49.000 quite fascinating. So you mentioned Canada and Singapore. Most of 0:40:49.000 --> 0:40:52.480 it has been in the US. Do you find a 0:40:52.600 --> 0:40:56.040 difference between cities on the coasts and cities in the 0:40:56.239 --> 0:40:59.160 mainland in the United States. I come back to New 0:40:59.200 --> 0:41:01.919 York sometime to press that I'm back in a tough 0:41:02.040 --> 0:41:06.040 environment for my field. Um, it's easier in the middle 0:41:06.040 --> 0:41:08.840 of the country. Yeah, the why is that? Are people 0:41:08.920 --> 0:41:12.880 nicer or is it just there everybody's kind of on 0:41:12.920 --> 0:41:16.040 the same page and you don't have the intrinsic interest 0:41:16.080 --> 0:41:21.640 groups fighting. It's two things, um um unions. UM. I 0:41:21.680 --> 0:41:25.960 think New York State is thirty union workforce, astonishing number, 0:41:26.520 --> 0:41:30.560 New Jersey, California. Really unions are in very good control 0:41:30.600 --> 0:41:33.080 of legislative processes. And there's unions have been on the 0:41:33.120 --> 0:41:36.120 wayne nationally for a long time. What is it, less 0:41:36.120 --> 0:41:39.280 than five percent of workers are now and the number 0:41:39.320 --> 0:41:41.399 is tiny compared to what it was a century ago, 0:41:41.520 --> 0:41:44.560 a half a century ago. But um not um, but 0:41:44.600 --> 0:41:49.239 not immunist about those states so much so. UM. That 0:41:49.480 --> 0:41:51.759 is one difference. In the second is there really is 0:41:51.760 --> 0:41:57.000 a difference in terms of the belief in um capitalist system. 0:41:57.040 --> 0:41:59.360 I don't have to I started a speech once in 0:41:59.440 --> 0:42:02.040 Dallas about this is the reason our parks work. And 0:42:02.120 --> 0:42:04.720 part of my pitch was that, you know, the freaner 0:42:04.760 --> 0:42:07.920 prise system is a good thing. And they were one 0:42:07.960 --> 0:42:09.960 of the guys on the board waved his arms at Dan, 0:42:10.040 --> 0:42:12.400 you don't have to make that speech. Here. We got 0:42:13.400 --> 0:42:18.359 this is Uh, that's the difference. Um. The uh terms 0:42:18.440 --> 0:42:21.640 of employment a real threat to our field. Um, it's 0:42:21.640 --> 0:42:24.760 not just me, it's the little organizations that are doing 0:42:24.800 --> 0:42:29.120 the same thing in parks and neighborhoods. Is this specifying 0:42:29.160 --> 0:42:32.160 of the terms of employment by government which is happening 0:42:32.200 --> 0:42:35.840 in states like New York, New Jersey and Washington and California. 0:42:35.880 --> 0:42:38.560 But when you say specified terms of well, we now 0:42:38.640 --> 0:42:42.160 have in some of the cities in those states, UM 0:42:42.360 --> 0:42:47.799 minimum wages of fifteen dollars, um, UM specified amount of 0:42:47.840 --> 0:42:52.360 sick leave in New York City, UM, specified amount of 0:42:52.400 --> 0:42:55.680 maternity leave. A lot of these things I did voluntarily. 0:42:55.719 --> 0:43:01.160 But to legislate across every business in your environment and 0:43:01.239 --> 0:43:03.920 say all of you must do the following things, really, 0:43:04.080 --> 0:43:06.920 in my mind, goes too far, and for little efforts. 0:43:06.960 --> 0:43:08.799 We try to do a lot with little. If you're 0:43:08.840 --> 0:43:11.520 a little company, it's whether you're a for profit or 0:43:11.560 --> 0:43:15.960 not for profit. It's really difficult to uh do this 0:43:16.120 --> 0:43:20.480 fifteen dollar So Seattle going up to fifteen dollars by 0:43:20.480 --> 0:43:24.600 what it's phased until I think the nineteen but there 0:43:24.920 --> 0:43:26.719 that is in the next three or four years. Yeah, 0:43:26.760 --> 0:43:30.600 it's gonna hurt their ability to do things like pick 0:43:30.680 --> 0:43:34.040 up paper in parts that they privately managed and they 0:43:34.040 --> 0:43:36.759 know that, but the mayor's behind it and they have 0:43:36.840 --> 0:43:39.400 to be behind it. And I thought it was companies 0:43:39.440 --> 0:43:41.680 with fifty people or more. Am I confusing that with 0:43:41.760 --> 0:43:44.120 something else? That that was one of the criteria for 0:43:44.480 --> 0:43:46.920 New York. But I don't know if that's true in Seattle. 0:43:47.880 --> 0:43:51.080 But fifteen dollar minimum wage and some lower cost environments, 0:43:51.080 --> 0:43:54.040 Washington is not. It's not New York. It's a very different. 0:43:54.320 --> 0:43:57.080 So let's challenge. Let's let's talk a bit, because restaurants 0:43:57.080 --> 0:43:59.520 are such an important part of the revenue stream for 0:43:59.560 --> 0:44:02.479 these arks. We had Bobby flay on a few months 0:44:02.480 --> 0:44:06.359 ago and he was apoplectic about the changes. He said, 0:44:06.400 --> 0:44:08.960 you can't run a restaurant profitably in New York City anymore. 0:44:09.000 --> 0:44:11.920 Given the changes that are gonna be phased in. There 0:44:11.960 --> 0:44:14.480 are people who live earned their living on tips. I 0:44:14.520 --> 0:44:16.799 can't pay them twelve dollars an hour. That's too much. 0:44:16.920 --> 0:44:20.040 It's gonna be a challenge. The restaurants in Central Park 0:44:20.320 --> 0:44:25.880 UM with UM obviously involvement of the city because they 0:44:25.920 --> 0:44:29.160 own the real estate, are gonna have a challenge because 0:44:29.160 --> 0:44:34.080 the hotel trades council. UM dominates UM their workforces now 0:44:34.120 --> 0:44:36.160 and I don't know if those two will survive. They're 0:44:36.160 --> 0:44:38.320 great place. Has that been the issue with Tavern on 0:44:38.360 --> 0:44:40.200 the Green has been a part of an issue. The 0:44:40.200 --> 0:44:42.760 reason there weren't so many bids on the new Tavern 0:44:42.880 --> 0:44:47.880 deal was that the city imposed uh, the Hotel Trades 0:44:47.960 --> 0:44:51.880 Council on the deal. And but to be fair to 0:44:51.920 --> 0:44:53.840 the city, I think one of le Roy had welcomed 0:44:53.880 --> 0:44:55.920 them in when he owned Tavern on the Green previously, 0:44:56.560 --> 0:45:00.520 So that's UM dicey operation. They think they only got 0:45:00.520 --> 0:45:03.719 two or three bids for what really should have been 0:45:03.760 --> 0:45:05.520 a great opportunity because there was a lot of catering 0:45:05.520 --> 0:45:08.920 postage a ton absolutely at one point in time that 0:45:09.040 --> 0:45:11.680 was also a beautiful restaurant and kind of fell into 0:45:12.600 --> 0:45:15.000 disused disrepair and it it's not what it was. I 0:45:15.000 --> 0:45:16.680 don't know what's going on with it now. I haven't 0:45:17.080 --> 0:45:20.239 They want to representative restaurant, but the volume isn't what 0:45:20.280 --> 0:45:23.040 it was because it was cut down. Warner had turned 0:45:23.080 --> 0:45:26.360 it into a mega megal. It's uh. I think he 0:45:26.440 --> 0:45:29.839 had thirty five million dollars in revenue annually, a part 0:45:29.840 --> 0:45:34.759 of it from catering Uh, and now smaller. So we 0:45:34.760 --> 0:45:37.880 we talked about overseas um and we talked about the 0:45:37.920 --> 0:45:41.160 difference in in coasts. You know, when you look at 0:45:41.280 --> 0:45:44.839 at some of these other projects, what what stands out 0:45:44.880 --> 0:45:48.080 when someone first approaches you with, Hey, we have this 0:45:48.280 --> 0:45:50.040 park and it's kind of a mess and we want 0:45:50.080 --> 0:45:53.400 to clean it up. How do you go about starting 0:45:53.440 --> 0:45:56.440 that process reviewing that? What's that? Like? The first thing 0:45:56.480 --> 0:46:00.279 we do is kind of intriguing market share calculation. Um. 0:46:00.280 --> 0:46:03.080 This comes from a conversation with Eli Broad, who's done 0:46:03.080 --> 0:46:06.120 wonderful things for downtown l A. But Eli was too optimistic, 0:46:06.120 --> 0:46:08.920 in my view about how many people would visit the 0:46:09.080 --> 0:46:12.279 public spaces on Grand Avenue after the Disney Concert Hall 0:46:12.360 --> 0:46:16.000 was built. So UM, I kept warning him, Eli, not 0:46:16.040 --> 0:46:17.680 as many people are going to visit just to see 0:46:17.719 --> 0:46:19.960 the building as you think. And then I said, I 0:46:20.000 --> 0:46:22.879 need to have a systematized way of making that case 0:46:22.920 --> 0:46:26.279 to clients like Eli, who's a smart guy, and you know, 0:46:26.400 --> 0:46:30.759 didn't really believe me. So we created something called a 0:46:30.880 --> 0:46:35.440 visitor market share calculation. We go out depending on the 0:46:35.440 --> 0:46:38.280 walking distance of each city. Dallas has a terribly small 0:46:38.320 --> 0:46:42.239 walking distance. Nobody walks there. Uh, New York, Boston, Washington, 0:46:42.360 --> 0:46:45.600 ter everybody walks. So we go at twelve hundred feet 0:46:45.600 --> 0:46:48.680 in those cities and two hundred or three hundred in Dallas, 0:46:48.840 --> 0:46:53.319 and then we look at the adjacent hotels, office buildings, residences, 0:46:53.560 --> 0:46:57.319 retail shops, museums, and we say, how many people plausibly 0:46:57.640 --> 0:47:00.680 could be in this public space? Uh, and what are 0:47:00.680 --> 0:47:02.240 we gonna have to do to get them there? Because 0:47:02.520 --> 0:47:04.960 our market share at Brian Park sounds small, but it's 0:47:05.040 --> 0:47:08.200 four percent basically of all the people in the surrounding 0:47:08.239 --> 0:47:11.160 area or in Briant Park at lunchtime. And you say, 0:47:11.200 --> 0:47:13.239 what happened the other ninety six And the answer is 0:47:13.239 --> 0:47:15.320 their own vacation, they're on a business trip, they're in 0:47:15.360 --> 0:47:20.040 a conference, they're eating at their desk by the uptown. 0:47:20.840 --> 0:47:23.960 So we lose nineties six percent through no fault of ours, 0:47:24.000 --> 0:47:26.600 But four percent is that's a big number of massive 0:47:26.840 --> 0:47:29.799 But some clients think they're gonna get ten or so 0:47:29.840 --> 0:47:32.560 first time we do is disabuse them of that, say, 0:47:32.560 --> 0:47:34.560 Brian Park has been plugging away doing this for twenty 0:47:34.640 --> 0:47:36.960 five years. You're not going to get higher than four percent. 0:47:37.440 --> 0:47:39.799 And then we say, okay, what's going to drag these 0:47:39.800 --> 0:47:42.680 people in. Is it knitting um seminars like we do 0:47:42.719 --> 0:47:45.640 in Brian Park? Is it juggling clinics? Is it concerts? 0:47:45.800 --> 0:47:49.000 Is it the reading sessions we have? Is that patonk 0:47:49.160 --> 0:47:50.920 is a ping pong? We have a putting green. All 0:47:50.920 --> 0:47:53.560 those things. We put together a bunch of things on 0:47:53.600 --> 0:47:56.840 a map and show the client how we're gonna drag 0:47:56.880 --> 0:47:59.640 people into their space at hours they might not have 0:47:59.640 --> 0:48:02.439 expect to be there, including seasons where in the past 0:48:02.640 --> 0:48:05.000 Brian Park was empty in the winter. For right, it's 0:48:05.160 --> 0:48:08.600 jam Now between the rink and then around the holidays 0:48:08.600 --> 0:48:11.640 are all the all the kiosks selling all these different 0:48:11.680 --> 0:48:16.000 crafts and unique sort of products. It's jam packed when 0:48:16.000 --> 0:48:19.239 you go in there. So um, that's Those are our 0:48:19.239 --> 0:48:22.160 starting points, and from then it's a budget. And then 0:48:22.280 --> 0:48:25.360 only last do we go to the architects and say, okay, 0:48:25.360 --> 0:48:27.600 now draw this up for us. We we saved the 0:48:27.640 --> 0:48:31.040 clients a lot of money by not having them, uh 0:48:31.280 --> 0:48:34.600 spend a lot of money on fancy plans, especially in 0:48:34.880 --> 0:48:38.080 blue states where the construction costs are so high. Dallas 0:48:38.080 --> 0:48:40.759 can afford to do a little bit of that. The 0:48:40.800 --> 0:48:43.360 park really cost about twenty three million, but could have 0:48:43.400 --> 0:48:46.239 been but less. But the same effort in New York 0:48:46.360 --> 0:48:48.480 above the surface of the park would have been three 0:48:48.520 --> 0:48:51.080 times as much. I was gonna say five x. It's 0:48:51.120 --> 0:48:54.759 only three times. Uh, this is never been sure, but 0:48:54.840 --> 0:48:58.640 it would have been very expensive proposition quite quite fascinating. 0:48:59.000 --> 0:49:01.959 So so are some of the other challenges you face. 0:49:02.040 --> 0:49:05.120 You have to get the clients to be realistic. You're 0:49:05.160 --> 0:49:08.960 dealing with politicos, you're dealing with unions. What else is 0:49:09.000 --> 0:49:12.360 a challenge that people may not be aware of that 0:49:12.520 --> 0:49:16.560 involves turning around what's in a great while? We come 0:49:16.640 --> 0:49:19.480 upon something where I say to the staff, you know 0:49:19.520 --> 0:49:24.320 this is pushing on a string to use that ran Well, 0:49:24.400 --> 0:49:28.920 it's it's it's a suburb where there's no particular reason, 0:49:29.080 --> 0:49:32.759 there's no density, and there's no reason people within a 0:49:32.840 --> 0:49:34.839 reasonable distance, we're not going to go there. Even if 0:49:34.840 --> 0:49:37.480 you produce something that's so spectacular that people should want 0:49:37.480 --> 0:49:40.160 to see it as a curiosity once in a while. 0:49:40.200 --> 0:49:44.600 That's a challenge. Other ones are we have there. There's 0:49:44.640 --> 0:49:46.759 a park I won't name in Boston. We we have 0:49:46.800 --> 0:49:50.080 two projects in Boston, South Station and Finnal Hall. There's 0:49:50.080 --> 0:49:52.480 a park I'd like to do there, but the This 0:49:52.560 --> 0:49:54.480 is not the fault of the this mayor or the 0:49:54.520 --> 0:49:58.080 previous mayor. It's the fault of the butters who are 0:49:58.239 --> 0:50:00.480 thinking too small about it. It could be one of 0:50:00.480 --> 0:50:03.839 the great public spaces in the country, surrounded as it 0:50:03.880 --> 0:50:08.480 is by iconic structures, but it's one Another big problem 0:50:08.520 --> 0:50:10.960 is just this small thinking I call it. It's just 0:50:11.480 --> 0:50:13.560 let's collect a little bit of money and turn on 0:50:13.600 --> 0:50:15.480 the fountains and have a concert once in a while, 0:50:15.920 --> 0:50:18.080 and doesn't get it done. It's not that the people 0:50:18.080 --> 0:50:21.680 are not smart, it's that they don't have um the 0:50:21.760 --> 0:50:24.719 frame of reference to think bigger. And that's a big 0:50:24.760 --> 0:50:27.840 problem for my firm. I'm in Chicago pretty regularly and 0:50:27.840 --> 0:50:31.919 I'm always impressed with how well done their public spaces are. 0:50:32.400 --> 0:50:34.520 Have you guys done anything in there? It was funny, 0:50:34.520 --> 0:50:37.200 funny Mayor Dally. I'm very fond of him. Um the 0:50:37.200 --> 0:50:39.640 second Mayor Dally. He was in Brian Park taking notes 0:50:39.680 --> 0:50:43.120 one day and he's chief of staff called me and 0:50:43.120 --> 0:50:45.160 he said he has a question and I said, I'm 0:50:45.160 --> 0:50:46.880 coming right down. I want to meet him. He said, no, 0:50:46.960 --> 0:50:48.640 you please don't do that. He's on his way to 0:50:48.680 --> 0:50:52.799 investment bankers in ten minutes, but he is curious. I said, Okay, Drew, 0:50:52.840 --> 0:50:54.520 I'm gonna give you these answers, but only if I 0:50:54.560 --> 0:50:57.680 can visit him in Chicago. So I went out there, 0:50:57.800 --> 0:51:00.560 had an incredible meeting with him. Ordale. It was a 0:51:00.600 --> 0:51:04.000 great park mayor, and you're right, the parks really have 0:51:04.480 --> 0:51:07.400 been well done. Um. He did it through a park district, 0:51:07.560 --> 0:51:09.880 not through B I d S, not through privatization. He 0:51:09.880 --> 0:51:13.240 didn't really believe in privatization because it's all it's all city. 0:51:13.320 --> 0:51:18.560 But unlike New York and other big cities, Chicago's mayor 0:51:18.680 --> 0:51:22.880 is essentially a benevolent dictator. Uh. And so we have a 0:51:22.840 --> 0:51:25.359 a family there, and one day we were there. We 0:51:25.360 --> 0:51:28.000 were there every Thanksgiving for the past twenty five years, 0:51:28.360 --> 0:51:31.120 and we go to the museums, we go to Second City, 0:51:31.160 --> 0:51:34.480 we do everything. Every I come back ten pounds heavier 0:51:34.560 --> 0:51:37.920 every Thanksgiving. And it ain't the Turkey. But we're walking 0:51:37.920 --> 0:51:39.680 through a park and I'm like, wow, these are really 0:51:39.719 --> 0:51:46.040 beautiful iron uh fencing, not the usual chain link junk, 0:51:46.280 --> 0:51:49.520 but like cast iron or beautiful. And I'm like, when 0:51:49.560 --> 0:51:51.879 did this happen? Stay straight? They did a nice job. 0:51:51.880 --> 0:51:54.040 And you know, I asked him during the meeting. He 0:51:54.120 --> 0:51:56.200 was very detailed, and I said, you know, you know 0:51:56.239 --> 0:51:59.759 a lot about this um. Of all the mayors, have 0:52:00.120 --> 0:52:02.439 you know the most and that had was generally known. 0:52:02.760 --> 0:52:04.640 And after I asked his chief of staff, where do 0:52:04.640 --> 0:52:06.719 you learn all that? Because most mayors don't know these 0:52:06.719 --> 0:52:09.880 details of visual stuff. And he said his father. Of course, 0:52:10.360 --> 0:52:12.680 I said, how did that happen? He said, he took 0:52:12.719 --> 0:52:16.040 him out in a car on the weekend. Richie, look 0:52:16.080 --> 0:52:19.120 at that building that looks horrible, and I just told 0:52:19.160 --> 0:52:20.880 my guy, you needed to paint that side of it 0:52:20.920 --> 0:52:24.759 and take that that iron casing away. He said, he 0:52:24.840 --> 0:52:27.839 really his father. Surprisingly, that the old the old Mayor 0:52:27.920 --> 0:52:31.200 Dally Richard Daydalely, I guess it was, had a very 0:52:31.239 --> 0:52:34.560 good eye, but was known as a ward heeler and 0:52:34.560 --> 0:52:37.600 a tough meaty. He had another skill which was not 0:52:37.800 --> 0:52:41.759 highly publicized outside of Chicago. Well, the sun apparently inherited 0:52:41.800 --> 0:52:45.200 that eye, because one day he issued a dictate, which 0:52:45.280 --> 0:52:50.279 is channeling fences down cast iron fences, replacing them. And 0:52:50.320 --> 0:52:53.239 you good luck finding a chain link fence on any 0:52:53.280 --> 0:52:56.359 of the major parks in Chicago. They're all now. If 0:52:56.360 --> 0:52:59.320 you go to parts in Manhattan, you'll see these gorgeous 0:52:59.320 --> 0:53:02.040 Gramercy Park and some which has always been a private park. 0:53:02.320 --> 0:53:05.520 But some of these other parks have these beautiful cast 0:53:05.600 --> 0:53:10.400 iron fences. But it was, you know, dealers, somebody's choice. 0:53:10.880 --> 0:53:14.239 They basically issued an addict and ninety days later there 0:53:14.239 --> 0:53:17.640 were no more channeling fences in the park. I know 0:53:17.719 --> 0:53:19.840 I only have you for another ten or fifteen minutes, 0:53:19.880 --> 0:53:24.400 So let me jump right to my favorite questions where 0:53:24.680 --> 0:53:27.880 I asked these of all my guests before we do that. 0:53:27.960 --> 0:53:32.120 Are there any specific questions I missed that anything you 0:53:32.120 --> 0:53:34.880 want to bring up um that I may have not 0:53:34.960 --> 0:53:41.920 gotten to. Uh, I don't think so. Which questions do 0:53:41.920 --> 0:53:45.239 you think of asking? Asking the last the last eight? 0:53:46.600 --> 0:53:48.440 So we did some of these so we know what 0:53:48.480 --> 0:53:52.120 you did before you started working in this space. Let 0:53:52.239 --> 0:53:54.200 let me ask you who who were some of your 0:53:54.239 --> 0:53:57.520 early mentors. Uh. There was a guy who's not well 0:53:57.520 --> 0:54:00.560 known in the business community, William H. White Jr. Who 0:54:00.719 --> 0:54:03.280 came up with a lot of the theories about movable 0:54:03.360 --> 0:54:07.120 chairs and the like that we've implemented in Brian Park. 0:54:07.600 --> 0:54:09.759 Brilliant guy. He was a journalist. He's known more for 0:54:09.800 --> 0:54:13.319 the books he wrote, including The Organization Man, and he 0:54:13.360 --> 0:54:15.680 was closely linked. Unbeknownsted we can say it now that 0:54:15.719 --> 0:54:18.960 he passed away about fifteen years ago. The Rockefellers supported 0:54:19.000 --> 0:54:21.399 his work. They thought it was so important, gave him 0:54:21.400 --> 0:54:26.719 an office and a secretary and consulting deals. Um. There 0:54:26.719 --> 0:54:28.400 was one point he took me down to Princeton and 0:54:28.400 --> 0:54:31.120 he said, little little known to the public, the Rockefellers 0:54:31.160 --> 0:54:33.759 don't give money to the school unless I say that 0:54:33.840 --> 0:54:35.879 the physical improvement is a good one. So I want 0:54:35.880 --> 0:54:39.440 to really show you something outside of East Pine Hall. 0:54:40.080 --> 0:54:44.640 And he was. He was a tremendously important factor. And 0:54:45.040 --> 0:54:48.880 what we didn't Briant Park and then uh, the people 0:54:48.880 --> 0:54:51.319 who helped me get started with these entities other than 0:54:51.360 --> 0:54:54.160 the Rockefellers, Andrew High School, who was the chairman of 0:54:54.200 --> 0:54:57.040 time ach and agreed to be our chairman for many years. 0:54:57.040 --> 0:55:02.560 Michael Fuchs who succeeded him. Yep, Michael's a brilliant businessman 0:55:02.719 --> 0:55:05.040 and has been our chairman at Brian Park of the 0:55:05.440 --> 0:55:08.840 kind of celebrity entity for about twenty years. Um, and 0:55:09.120 --> 0:55:11.160 learned a lot from him. So and if I go 0:55:11.200 --> 0:55:13.279 to Brian Park and I first time I ever sold 0:55:13.320 --> 0:55:15.920 Louis c K had to be ten years ago in 0:55:15.960 --> 0:55:18.160 the middle of the day at Brian Park. The comedy 0:55:18.200 --> 0:55:24.080 series and slaughtered the part. People were falling literally rolling 0:55:24.080 --> 0:55:27.400 around the grass. That was a great comedy series. The 0:55:27.480 --> 0:55:29.640 language was a problem. We couldn't get the comedians to 0:55:29.719 --> 0:55:32.200 work clean so eventually, but it was hilarious, but I 0:55:32.239 --> 0:55:34.200 thought of bringing it back. It was it was so. 0:55:34.600 --> 0:55:38.880 I saw him there, I saw Louis Black there, showed 0:55:38.960 --> 0:55:42.240 up and I'm sure you could randomly get just about 0:55:42.280 --> 0:55:45.399 anybody else you wanted. Suman was there the first time 0:55:45.400 --> 0:55:49.920 I ever saw her. She was very profane, very profane. 0:55:50.160 --> 0:55:55.759 Check out her interview with David Steinberg on Showtime. It's hilarious. 0:55:55.800 --> 0:56:00.040 Peter Malkin is an investor. He's eighty two now, in 0:56:00.080 --> 0:56:03.719 fact today he's eighty two. He um uh was the 0:56:03.800 --> 0:56:07.680 chairman of my b I D s at Grand Central 0:56:07.760 --> 0:56:11.080 and thirty four Street and was very uh instrumental in 0:56:11.120 --> 0:56:14.040 this stuff getting going. And another mentor is my wife, 0:56:14.040 --> 0:56:16.920 who's a brilliant she's a litigator with a practice and 0:56:17.000 --> 0:56:20.760 fine art law. It's a fascinating practice. She formed the field, 0:56:21.120 --> 0:56:24.200 but she's a very good advisor on a lot of things. 0:56:24.239 --> 0:56:28.440 She's she should be involved in that Picasso has a 0:56:28.480 --> 0:56:32.120 lot of arts law clients who were have stuck with 0:56:32.120 --> 0:56:34.920 her over the years. But she's a brilliant advisor on 0:56:35.520 --> 0:56:39.040 a lot of this stuff and negotiation and more than 0:56:39.080 --> 0:56:41.239 just a litigator or a fine arts lawyer, she's been 0:56:41.320 --> 0:56:44.120 very important. You mentioned White and the idea of the 0:56:44.160 --> 0:56:46.960 movable chairs. I have to ask how many of those 0:56:47.000 --> 0:56:50.840 chairs are stolen each year? Virtually zero? They really, you know, 0:56:50.920 --> 0:56:54.200 they deteriorate. They certainly they look like they're good enough 0:56:54.239 --> 0:56:56.600 to sit on, but not good enough to take. Well, 0:56:56.640 --> 0:56:59.480 that's thankfully that we knew it would go fine because 0:56:59.560 --> 0:57:03.080 when the first parks we've seen with chairs, these were 0:57:03.120 --> 0:57:06.720 actually for rent. They weren't for free. You were Green 0:57:06.840 --> 0:57:11.520 Park and St James Park in London. The Queen's entity, 0:57:11.560 --> 0:57:14.560 which is called Royal Park Enterprises put them out and 0:57:14.600 --> 0:57:18.160 we said, um, that's interesting. They're not going anywhere. I 0:57:18.200 --> 0:57:21.840 once asked somebody, why don't they disappear? Question? Everybody asked 0:57:21.840 --> 0:57:24.640 me about my parks and they said, well, they belonged 0:57:24.680 --> 0:57:29.600 to the queen. Who would take something queen's property? So 0:57:29.600 --> 0:57:31.760 so that yeah, that's more than just stealing a chair. 0:57:31.880 --> 0:57:35.160 That's a serious yeah. But also Brian parks so busy, 0:57:35.200 --> 0:57:37.200 it's hard to even to have a petty crime. We 0:57:37.200 --> 0:57:40.000 we took crime from five d felonies a year to 0:57:40.080 --> 0:57:43.240 zero there and it's it stays in the zero to 0:57:43.320 --> 0:57:48.400 one range. Every year there's something an assault. We had 0:57:48.440 --> 0:57:51.600 one weird incident with a guy took a machette out 0:57:51.640 --> 0:57:53.800 and hacked away at a woman, which is really upsetting 0:57:54.480 --> 0:57:58.400 because there are that was recent that there's some people 0:57:58.440 --> 0:58:00.840 in the streets. There's nothing you could do. There seems 0:58:00.840 --> 0:58:04.360 to be more than everyon more. Yeah, um, so let 0:58:04.400 --> 0:58:08.640 me keep plowing through this. So um, we haven't really 0:58:08.640 --> 0:58:11.560 talked about books, which is always a favorite topic. What 0:58:11.560 --> 0:58:15.800 what books influenced you? Um? Or what other books have 0:58:15.880 --> 0:58:20.640 you just found to be interesting and worth mentioning. I 0:58:20.680 --> 0:58:23.360 stopped reading books when we had kids, and then I 0:58:23.360 --> 0:58:27.520 said I gotta start again. So um, I'm I'm back 0:58:27.560 --> 0:58:33.400 reading again. Forty fifty books a year and they fiction. Uh, 0:58:33.480 --> 0:58:36.400 they haven't been influential. I just read them for escape. 0:58:36.440 --> 0:58:40.080 I like Trollope and Hardy and Fitzgerald. Um, and then 0:58:40.120 --> 0:58:42.840 management books. I've always spent half of my reading time 0:58:42.840 --> 0:58:45.160 reading management books trying to learn stuff in business. So 0:58:45.600 --> 0:58:50.439 Collins was interesting yeah, very good. I've read two of those. 0:58:50.480 --> 0:58:53.680 And UM Mark McCormick's books, which nobody mentions anymore, are 0:58:53.760 --> 0:58:59.920 really good. Whatever things. What they didn't teach you what 0:59:00.040 --> 0:59:02.360 Harvard Business School, it's kind of good horse sense about 0:59:02.440 --> 0:59:07.160 business management, UM and then UM Alan Weiss is a 0:59:07.200 --> 0:59:12.160 great one on pricing your consulting services, which Mackenzie X 0:59:12.280 --> 0:59:16.600 Mackenzie friend of mine recommended. What is Alan Weiss's book? 0:59:16.600 --> 0:59:22.600 What's her name of pricing? I'm forgetting the name value. 0:59:23.360 --> 0:59:28.280 I'll included on the page when we talked about And then, 0:59:28.400 --> 0:59:32.400 like most privatization guys, I've read UH and and RAN 0:59:32.720 --> 0:59:38.440 and it's it's a trial to read. But last week 0:59:38.480 --> 0:59:41.520 I had Michael Kovellan, who in his list of books 0:59:41.560 --> 0:59:43.640 mentioned Zone Ran and he says to me, He goes, 0:59:43.680 --> 0:59:46.120 I know you can't stand her, And I said, it's 0:59:46.120 --> 0:59:47.960 not that I can't stand her, it's that I was 0:59:48.000 --> 0:59:51.640 assigned at Las Shrugged in college and it was eight 0:59:51.680 --> 0:59:54.240 of the most miserable weeks of my life. The speech, 0:59:54.520 --> 0:59:58.720 it's a hundred and sixty pages one speech is it's 0:59:59.200 --> 1:00:02.760 it's brutal. I kind of semi minored in English and 1:00:02.800 --> 1:00:05.560 college and they emphasized when we did the Waste Land. 1:00:05.840 --> 1:00:07.920 There's no way this poem is regarded as one of 1:00:07.920 --> 1:00:10.480 the great trials of English literature without the editor, who 1:00:10.520 --> 1:00:13.440 I think was as a pound um. And there's no 1:00:13.480 --> 1:00:17.360 way Fitzgerald was any good without Max Purkis perkins Um 1:00:17.480 --> 1:00:19.480 and I Rand must not have had an editor who 1:00:19.520 --> 1:00:22.560 had a liability to say anything to her because needed 1:00:22.560 --> 1:00:24.760 to be edited, whereas The Fountain has a little more 1:00:25.080 --> 1:00:29.360 under control and under Atlas Shrugged. I never I basically 1:00:30.360 --> 1:00:34.440 I had a similar experience with Stephen Um what's his 1:00:34.520 --> 1:00:40.040 name with the stand Um. I got through the stands 1:00:40.200 --> 1:00:45.120 and everybody loves loves the author, and um trial, I 1:00:45.240 --> 1:00:48.960 just hated the four fifths of the way through. The 1:00:48.960 --> 1:00:52.160 whole book takes us crazy turn and it goes off 1:00:52.200 --> 1:00:54.600 in a different direction, and I'm like, wow, you just 1:00:54.920 --> 1:00:56.840 set me up for eight hundred pages and pulled the 1:00:56.880 --> 1:01:00.840 rug out from the other um I've read for enjoyment. 1:01:00.840 --> 1:01:03.640 I've read Philip Roth. I'm within unfortunately two or three 1:01:03.680 --> 1:01:07.160 of finishing all of his novels, and Just the Door 1:01:08.240 --> 1:01:12.280 was the story of my childhood. So I com He's 1:01:12.280 --> 1:01:14.919 got a funny story about Fortnoy's complaint that he tells 1:01:14.920 --> 1:01:17.320 in one of the films about him, where he told 1:01:17.360 --> 1:01:20.200 his mother he sat her down deliver or something else. No, 1:01:20.400 --> 1:01:22.200 he said, you know, this is going to be very 1:01:22.280 --> 1:01:24.720 upsetting to you, but there's a book that I just 1:01:24.800 --> 1:01:27.840 finished that is going to be a massive hit and 1:01:27.880 --> 1:01:29.760 it kind of makes a little bit of fun of 1:01:29.760 --> 1:01:32.520 our family, and I just wanted you to understand. He 1:01:32.520 --> 1:01:35.880 explains the whole thing, and then um, they go away. 1:01:36.000 --> 1:01:38.880 So after his mother died, he asked his father years later, 1:01:39.440 --> 1:01:42.440 what what was mom's reaction after I told her that 1:01:42.480 --> 1:01:43.800 I was going to have this huge hit and be 1:01:43.840 --> 1:01:47.440 a celebrity, she said, he said, she started crying, and 1:01:47.480 --> 1:01:48.960 he said, I knew it. I knew what. I knew 1:01:48.960 --> 1:01:50.840 she'd be upset, he said, not about what you think. 1:01:51.120 --> 1:01:53.600 She started crying because she thought you were having delusions 1:01:53.600 --> 1:01:57.120 of grand My son is crazy. He thinks he's gonna 1:01:57.120 --> 1:02:01.640 be a famous lot. But no, calm, it's about the actual. Uh, 1:02:02.440 --> 1:02:05.120 that's not what she was concerned about. And that American 1:02:05.160 --> 1:02:08.280 Pastorals my favorite, my favorite, and a lot of people's 1:02:08.480 --> 1:02:11.760 never read it. Oh, it's it's fibulous if you're interested 1:02:11.760 --> 1:02:14.280 in new work. Six or eight of them really have 1:02:14.440 --> 1:02:16.600 fabulous new work stuff. In fact, he had an exhibit 1:02:16.600 --> 1:02:19.920 in New York UM the library where he first worked 1:02:19.960 --> 1:02:23.120 as a young boy. He um had an exhibit there 1:02:23.120 --> 1:02:26.200 about his family and childhood. So I know, I gotta 1:02:26.240 --> 1:02:28.040 get get you out of here in the next minute 1:02:28.080 --> 1:02:30.520 or two. Let me jump to my last two questions. 1:02:30.880 --> 1:02:34.480 So a millennial or a new college graduate coming out 1:02:34.480 --> 1:02:38.560 of school who are interested in pursuing your career path, 1:02:38.640 --> 1:02:40.280 what sort of advice would you give to that? I 1:02:40.280 --> 1:02:43.400 always tell him the first job isn't that important. What 1:02:43.440 --> 1:02:45.320 it is as long as your boss is a smart 1:02:45.360 --> 1:02:47.400 person and cuts you in on some of the actions. 1:02:47.400 --> 1:02:50.080 So I had an internship or two where I was 1:02:50.080 --> 1:02:52.120 put in the back room, and then I had an 1:02:52.120 --> 1:02:54.840 internship or two where I was included in the work 1:02:54.840 --> 1:02:57.040 of the office. So that's what we do with our interns. 1:02:57.040 --> 1:03:00.360 So get a job that's interesting to you on your 1:03:00.400 --> 1:03:02.480 career path. But it doesn't matter so much who you're 1:03:02.520 --> 1:03:05.280 working for as to the company. It does matter who 1:03:05.360 --> 1:03:08.120 your bosses. Look for a really smart boss who can 1:03:08.160 --> 1:03:11.320 teach you certain things. And then at that point, I 1:03:11.720 --> 1:03:17.280 often say to people, time to be an entrepreneur, and um, 1:03:18.120 --> 1:03:20.200 get out there. You are my son and daughter for 1:03:20.240 --> 1:03:23.240 assuming that route. And my wife's quite an entrepreneur to 1:03:23.400 --> 1:03:26.680 in our own field of our laws. So um, it's 1:03:26.720 --> 1:03:28.840 easy to fail when you're young and you get up, 1:03:28.920 --> 1:03:31.680 dust yourself off and start over. Tougher to do that 1:03:31.720 --> 1:03:35.320 when you're a little older. And our our last question, 1:03:35.520 --> 1:03:38.800 what is it that you know about the development and 1:03:38.880 --> 1:03:42.280 management of public space today that you wish you knew 1:03:42.480 --> 1:03:45.440 back in the late nineteen eighties when you were starting 1:03:47.880 --> 1:03:50.680 two or three things? The programming didn't occur to us 1:03:50.760 --> 1:03:56.840 until we opened Briant Park. Um, and the insights I've 1:03:56.840 --> 1:04:01.360 had about managing the profit and laws statement for a 1:04:02.320 --> 1:04:05.280 cause that public entity only occurred to me over time. 1:04:05.360 --> 1:04:07.720 So I probably had some dead ends and wasted a 1:04:07.760 --> 1:04:13.680 little money early. Um, but UM, no one particular insight, 1:04:13.760 --> 1:04:17.680 it just um it took a lot of uh reading 1:04:17.960 --> 1:04:21.040 and travel. One thing I would certainly say is you 1:04:21.120 --> 1:04:23.080 need to travel a ton. If you do your same 1:04:23.480 --> 1:04:25.200 path to work every day, you're not going to have 1:04:25.360 --> 1:04:27.080 insights occurred to you. You need to get out and 1:04:27.080 --> 1:04:29.360 see what other people are doing. I kind of knew 1:04:29.400 --> 1:04:31.280 that from the beginning a little bit, but it's become 1:04:31.320 --> 1:04:34.680 more instrumental as time has gone on, Dan, thank you 1:04:34.720 --> 1:04:37.360 so much for being so generous with your time. This is, 1:04:37.440 --> 1:04:40.640 this has been fantastic. Before I go, I would be 1:04:40.680 --> 1:04:43.720 remiss if I didn't think my head of research Michael Batnick, 1:04:44.200 --> 1:04:49.680 and my producer slash engineer today Charlie Vollmer. Uh, you've 1:04:49.720 --> 1:04:54.400 been listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio. I'm 1:04:54.400 --> 1:04:57.760 gonna do that again. I'm Barry Rihults. You've been listening 1:04:57.800 --> 1:05:00.360 to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio.