1 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:07,560 Speaker 1: This is Masters in Business with Barry Ridholts on Bloomberg Radio. 2 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:11,360 Speaker 1: This week on Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio, I 3 00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:16,000 Speaker 1: have a very interesting and special guest. His name is 4 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 1: Dan Bieteman, and he is the founder and chairman of 5 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:25,800 Speaker 1: uh Beetoman Development Ventures. Dan is the guy who, at 6 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 1: a very young age, was tapped to run the company 7 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 1: that essentially turned around Bryant Park in New York and 8 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 1: he literally created a brand new model of managing and 9 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:46,159 Speaker 1: developing and redeveloping public spaces in a way that is 10 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:51,240 Speaker 1: effective and cost efficient and doesn't cost the taxpayers anything. 11 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 1: It's really a fascinating story as to how this came 12 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: about and Brian park begat all these other ventures and 13 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 1: parks both around New York and around the country, and 14 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 1: even internationally they've they've worked in Singapore and in Canada 15 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 1: and elsewhere. I found it to be really a fascinating story. 16 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:12,919 Speaker 1: And of all the folks we've had on the show, 17 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 1: if you take the ratio of how well known the 18 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 1: person is to the impact they've had on on and 19 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:22,039 Speaker 1: the number of individuals they've impacted, I think Dan is 20 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 1: the lowest known factor to impact of of anybody. Six 21 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:30,840 Speaker 1: million people a year pastor Brian Park and it's just 22 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:35,480 Speaker 1: a jewel of New York. So, without any further ado, 23 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 1: here is my conversation with Dan Bieterman. This is Masters 24 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: in Business with Barry Ridholds on Bloomberg Radio. I know 25 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:49,080 Speaker 1: I say this every week. I have a special guest, 26 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 1: but I really have a special guest who I'm gonna 27 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 1: describe him as someone who probably impacts more people on 28 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:02,160 Speaker 1: a daily base is and is less known to the 29 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 1: general public than any other guest we've had. His name 30 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 1: is Dan Bieterman, and he is the person, in addition 31 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 1: to running Bieterman Redevelopment Ventures, is the person who has 32 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 1: turned Bryant Park and other public spaces around from dangerous 33 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 1: drug infested crime zones to really Brian Park is the 34 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 1: jewel of Manhattan. Dan Bieterman, Welcome to Bloomberg. So, I 35 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 1: I don't want to spend too much time delving into 36 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 1: your CV, but briefly, Magna cum Laudy at Princeton NBA 37 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 1: with distinction from Harvard uh focusing at on both public 38 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 1: and international affairs, and in your undergraduate work, it's the 39 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:53,359 Speaker 1: nineteen seventies and nineteen eighties, and I'm familiar with Brian 40 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 1: Park because as a kid, my dad worked on Madison 41 00:02:56,919 --> 00:02:58,519 Speaker 1: and thirty nine and I used to come in and 42 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 1: visit him, and I was always told, hey, stay away 43 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:03,960 Speaker 1: from the park. Same thing with me and my father, 44 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:07,360 Speaker 1: who worked in the Grace Building. So so so that's 45 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 1: your first introduction to Brian Park. The Grace Building literally 46 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 1: faces Brian Park. So from that introduction as a kid, 47 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 1: we go to the nineties, seventies and eighties. The park 48 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 1: is decrepit, it's filled with homeless, it's filled with drug dealers, 49 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:27,240 Speaker 1: it's a disaster. You come along, what makes you say, 50 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 1: I have an idea, let's incorporate unentity to clean this up. 51 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 1: I was lucky and that it was a great first 52 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 1: job in the field because I've always wanted to be 53 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:39,320 Speaker 1: between the public and private sectors. I wanted to do 54 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 1: public sector work, but not on public sector terms. So 55 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 1: this opportunity came from the Rockefellers, of all people out 56 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 1: of nowhere, and the substance wasn't so difficult to come 57 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 1: up with. The politics were miserable, but we uh got 58 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 1: it done. It took a decade longer than it should have, 59 00:03:56,920 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 1: and now we've had twenty five years to watch the improvement. 60 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 1: So let's let's back up. The Rockefeller Is obviously Rockefeller 61 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 1: Center up the street, but that's a good ten blocks 62 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 1: away or or not eight blocks away. What was their 63 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 1: interest in Bryant Park other than it was a horrific 64 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 1: blight in in right in the middle of midtown. It 65 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 1: was the library bear though most people didn't know the 66 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 1: Rockefeller Is really viewed it as their institution, much like 67 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 1: MoMA and other places the New York Public Library. They 68 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 1: were huge sponsors, hugely involved, and Mrs Esther, on her 69 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 1: way it was one of her key institutions, on her 70 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:35,160 Speaker 1: way into a meeting of the trustees, was accosted by 71 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:38,160 Speaker 1: some drug dealers. Mrs Esther, probably eighty two years old, 72 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:40,839 Speaker 1: looked like Mrs Esther, and they offer her drugs. So 73 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 1: clearly the message was old lady, get out of here. 74 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:47,159 Speaker 1: This is our territory. She was outraged and ran into 75 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 1: David Rockefeller, first person she sees and immediately after being 76 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 1: accosted in Bryant Park. Very lucky for me, she says, 77 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 1: young man, he's probably seventy four at the time. We 78 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 1: need to do something about this misery. The roughie ends 79 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 1: outside They just insulted me. Let's fix this. Well, let 80 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:06,359 Speaker 1: me let me. So you're a young kid at this point, 81 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 1: how do you get tagged too? By the way, Dan, 82 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:12,280 Speaker 1: come over here, see this park. It's a mess. Fix it. 83 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 1: The only reason I got introduced to the Rockefellers is 84 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 1: Larry Cudlow decided to resign as treasurer of a nonprofit 85 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:23,799 Speaker 1: development corporation on West Street Street Development Corporation. They needed 86 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:26,599 Speaker 1: a replacement. The guy who ran that, Fred Pappard, knew me. 87 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:28,920 Speaker 1: He said, you can do this job. And by the way, 88 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 1: side benefit is at every board meeting. Jackie Onassis is president. 89 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 1: You'll get to know where So I said, sounds good, 90 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 1: No pay, I assume he said, yes, I was twenty 91 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 1: five years old. He suggested me to the Rockefellers for 92 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 1: Brian Park because they were looking for somebody who might 93 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 1: be a candidate to somehow turn around this mess. So 94 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:49,360 Speaker 1: you're on the Fort Street Development Corps. How does that 95 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:54,039 Speaker 1: morph into Bryant Park Corporation. When David Rockefeller, the world's 96 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 1: most effective human being for the last hundred years, Oh yes, 97 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:00,359 Speaker 1: goes back to his office from the trustees meeting, says 98 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 1: to the guy who round the Brothers fund, UM, we 99 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 1: need to just hire somebody to fix this. We don't 100 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:07,839 Speaker 1: know what to do, but we can't have the library 101 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 1: be surrounded by drug markets and killings and muggings and rapes. 102 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:15,279 Speaker 1: So there was a competition. I got the job, and 103 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 1: then UM had no secretary. Nobody was in an abandoned 104 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 1: office building because I didn't want to spend the Rockefeller's 105 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 1: money on rent. And UH came up with a plan 106 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 1: and the plan was a ninety day labor, but the 107 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 1: politics were six year labor. It was really brutal. What 108 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:33,719 Speaker 1: was the plan to turn the bark around? I was 109 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 1: even though I was young. I said, you gotta have 110 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:38,520 Speaker 1: models for such a thing. So the best models I 111 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 1: found were actually something tied to the Rockefellers. Rockefeller Center, 112 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:47,239 Speaker 1: Disney and rousse Rouse had projects that were turning around cities. UH. 113 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 1: Disney had done a fabulous job in their parks, and 114 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 1: I think Celebration Florida was a beginning thought at the time. 115 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 1: So I went to which which is the Disney residential 116 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 1: town that was sort of built UM with the same 117 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 1: thinking behind the Disneyland parks in terms of use of 118 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 1: use and access in and every detail exquisite. It's really 119 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:10,680 Speaker 1: a wonderful thing. They never decided to go on in 120 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 1: the business. So I went to all three companies and said, 121 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 1: I'd like you, here's a deal. You can run a 122 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 1: park in New York City. We're going to take it 123 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 1: away from the drug guys. You guys will be our agent. 124 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 1: I represent the Rockefellers in the New York Public Library 125 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 1: and the surrounding real estate owners. Let's get to it. 126 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 1: And they all said, thank you very much. We have 127 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 1: better things to do than fight with drug sellers in 128 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 1: New York City. But on the way out I got 129 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 1: some useful information, which is I asked them how much 130 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 1: did they think it would take to run a place 131 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:39,200 Speaker 1: like this? Well, they said, all of them, about a 132 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 1: million dollars an acre. So we needed six million dollars. 133 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 1: It's a six acre park. My chairman was Andrew High 134 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 1: School of Time, Inc. And he said, how much is 135 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 1: a city spending now? By the way, I said about 136 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 1: a hundred thousand generously, and he said, okay, six million 137 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 1: to a hundred thousand dollar off set. And by the way, 138 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 1: who's spending the money better Rock Center and Rouse and 139 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 1: Disney or the City of New York, and I said, 140 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 1: you know the answer to that. So he said, so 141 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 1: sixty to one plus a multiplayer of two or three. 142 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 1: So a D eighty two one is the difference and 143 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 1: effort going into those eight properties versus Brian Park, a 144 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 1: public property, And we were off trying to assemble a 145 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 1: mess of budget to allow us to do all the 146 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 1: great things we wanted to do for the public in 147 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 1: New York City. I'm Barry rich Helps. You're listening to 148 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 1: Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio. My guest today is 149 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 1: Dan Biederman of BTV Ventures. Dan's firm is the company 150 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:39,559 Speaker 1: that essentially turned around Brian Park, as well as dozens 151 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 1: of other parks around the country and elsewhere in the world. 152 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 1: Will get to that in a little while, But what 153 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:49,359 Speaker 1: I want to talk about now is the political process 154 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:53,959 Speaker 1: of taking what is a public space that's fallen into 155 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:59,160 Speaker 1: disrepair and has become dangerous and turning it into something else. Uh, 156 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 1: you said, obviously it took you ninety days to prepare 157 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 1: the plan and then six years to get the politics settled. 158 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 1: Explain that, UM. Every everybody leaped in and said the 159 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 1: idea of a privately managed space, UM and a program 160 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:16,959 Speaker 1: space was a bad idea. Many of them have never 161 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 1: been in Brian Park. But the preservation movement jumped in 162 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 1: with both feet to oppose me. But were they thinking 163 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 1: you're gonna throw up in an office building and Brian 164 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 1: or just we're against it philosophically there was There was 165 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 1: parks in New York at the time, and the Parts 166 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 1: commissioner said a good thing. At one point he said, 167 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:37,719 Speaker 1: you know, they don't all have to be managed in 168 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:40,560 Speaker 1: the same cookie cutter way. Let's try and experiment in 169 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:42,839 Speaker 1: one of them. Later three, because I took over two 170 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:46,040 Speaker 1: other parks in New York. But that contingent for the 171 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 1: preservation world wanted them all to be random managed the 172 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:52,440 Speaker 1: same way, which was government in charge and government both 173 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 1: spending and collecting methods, managing the profit and law statement, 174 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:58,320 Speaker 1: which is not a good recipe for success. So so 175 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 1: you put together a nine day it took you ninety 176 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 1: days to put together a plan. What were the key 177 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 1: points in that plan? We invented something called programming, which 178 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:09,680 Speaker 1: is an urban parks, you can't really afford Barry to 179 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 1: let um segments of the park be isolated. Um, it's 180 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 1: not your Semite National Park where you don't need to 181 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 1: program it's it's there are. Despite the reduction in New 182 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 1: York City's crime rate, which we were a key part of, 183 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 1: there are a lot of idiots walking around who will 184 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 1: do bad things, scare women out of the park and whatever. 185 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 1: So we invented programming. And if you walk into a 186 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 1: park that either that one or the one we did 187 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 1: in Dallas, the one we did in New York, you 188 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:38,560 Speaker 1: will see a lot of stuff going on that brings 189 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:40,839 Speaker 1: people into the park. And the more people were there, 190 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 1: the safer it gets. The female ratios go up, which 191 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 1: is a key indicator of park success. So we had that. 192 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:49,560 Speaker 1: We decided to do some food and beverage which had 193 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 1: never been in the park. Restaurants and kiosks, um an 194 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:56,520 Speaker 1: elaborate budget with multiple revenue sources that would allow us 195 00:10:56,559 --> 00:11:00,080 Speaker 1: to really do an excellent job running this almost on 196 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:02,839 Speaker 1: the scale that Disney Rouse and Rock Center had suggested. 197 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 1: And um then we've rolled that out across the country, 198 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:09,800 Speaker 1: but in New York it was hard. Blue state political 199 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:13,960 Speaker 1: processes are thick, to be kind, and my chairman at 200 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 1: the time said, somebody asked him about approvals. He said, 201 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 1: everybody in the Western hemisphere and his brother has had 202 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 1: to approve this twice, and that's why it took six years. 203 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:28,080 Speaker 1: It was a novel approach, so you would think that'd 204 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:31,319 Speaker 1: be a little skepticism from people saying, wait, you want 205 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:34,400 Speaker 1: who to take this over? But then that raises the question, 206 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:36,959 Speaker 1: how do you manage a park that size with a 207 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 1: even in the nineteen eighties, with a hundred thousand dollar 208 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 1: budget that doesn't pay for sanitation. Even the answers weren't 209 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 1: that hard to figure out, but the politics were brutal. 210 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 1: In fact that there was a point at which I 211 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 1: considered giving up after six years, and I met a 212 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:54,439 Speaker 1: very bright land use lawyer, Steve Leftwitz, on a train 213 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:57,200 Speaker 1: and I said I was discouraged. He said, why are 214 00:11:57,200 --> 00:11:58,960 Speaker 1: you discourage? This is going to happen. I said, what 215 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:00,679 Speaker 1: makes you think it's going to have? And they're fighting 216 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:03,079 Speaker 1: me at every turn. He said, there are four types 217 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 1: of projects and they fit on a matrix neatly, something 218 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 1: I've never gotten. I use it all the time. There 219 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:11,679 Speaker 1: are dumb projects and smart projects, good ideas, bad ideas, 220 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:14,320 Speaker 1: and then there are projects backed by powerful people and 221 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:17,320 Speaker 1: projects backed by powerless people. So he said, you can 222 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 1: imagine how often bad ideas backed by powerless people happen. 223 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 1: They almost never get adopted. He said, um, um, but 224 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 1: this is a good idea back by power. He said, 225 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:31,560 Speaker 1: this is a good idea powerful people, and good idea 226 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 1: really good ideas powerless people. Bad ideas powerful people. So 227 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:41,440 Speaker 1: he said, this is a fabulous idea. Your plan is great. 228 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:45,120 Speaker 1: The Rockefellers are behind it, so are the real estate owners. 229 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 1: This is going to happen. Don't get discouraged, stop winning 230 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 1: and go back to work. So that I needed that 231 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 1: pep talk after six years of facing the public cross 232 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 1: speaking of the real estate owners. The buildings adjacent to 233 00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 1: the park above and beyond the appreciation that the rest 234 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:04,440 Speaker 1: of the city has enjoyed has accumulated an additional two 235 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:08,880 Speaker 1: billion dollars in value just because of their proximity to 236 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:10,839 Speaker 1: the part. It was a real eye opener. The guys 237 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 1: who owned the Grace building initially sold it to try Zekon, 238 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 1: which then sold it to Brookfield. Um a very nice guy. 239 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 1: He sat me down, He said, let me show you 240 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:23,200 Speaker 1: how much money you made this family. He said, really, 241 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 1: let's let's assume it's about a twenty buck premium for 242 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:29,199 Speaker 1: Brian Park. Being this's good, he said, I think that's modest. 243 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:32,600 Speaker 1: But every square foot of our million three square feet 244 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 1: went up in value over five to ten year period 245 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:38,680 Speaker 1: by twenty dollars as a result of your efforts. And 246 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:40,680 Speaker 1: he said, the that goes straight to the bottom line. 247 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:42,840 Speaker 1: It doesn't cost more to collect more rent. So he 248 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:45,040 Speaker 1: did the math for me twenty million dollars times one 249 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:49,599 Speaker 1: point three million twenty six million dollars and then he 250 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 1: said the cap rate years. The cap rate at the 251 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 1: time was five. So he said, okay, so twenty six 252 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 1: divided by point oh five million dollars. He said, how 253 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 1: much have we invested in this thing? I said, well, 254 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 1: you guys gave a garden and you've been part of 255 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 1: our business improvement districts, so I got a million bucks. 256 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 1: He said, so five twenty x, he said, can I 257 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:12,679 Speaker 1: tell you we've never had a five X experience? Did 258 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 1: you happen for more money? To hey, you guys should 259 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 1: be putting. I told the story my next salary negotiation 260 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 1: to the other board members and I said, why are 261 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 1: you fighting me on twenty k This is um. There 262 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 1: really was a lot of value created. So I now 263 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 1: tell the story to prospective clients in other cities who 264 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 1: were thinking of fixing their lobbies or doing other things 265 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 1: that really aren't that remunerative for the ownership. But you 266 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 1: take a public space and adjacent to the building and 267 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 1: it's a home run for every that's a win win 268 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 1: across the board. And right now in Dallas, we did 269 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 1: a park, Clyde Warren Park, with the help of a 270 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 1: bunch of Dallas billionaires. It's very successful and there's a 271 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 1: real estate boom around it. It's a cap park over 272 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 1: a formally open highway between that divided the city and 273 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 1: half right uptown Dallas to the Arts district. And it's 274 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 1: huge and i MC generator both for the private owners 275 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 1: and then the city benefits from this. The uh we 276 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 1: did an assessment last year. Thirty three million dollars in 277 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 1: real estate tax has added to the city at Brian 278 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:13,680 Speaker 1: Park just for the thirty three adjacent properties. To say 279 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 1: nothing with the guys who are blocked away, who are 280 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:18,440 Speaker 1: all arguing, you know, coming here because Brian Park is 281 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 1: a block away, so it's a it's it's probably a 282 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:23,760 Speaker 1: nine figures the added real estate tax as a city's 283 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 1: collecting as a result of Brian Park. You're listening to 284 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 1: masters in business on Bloomberg Radio. My special guest today 285 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 1: is Dan Bieerman of Biederman Development Ventures, and his company 286 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 1: is the firm that really helped turn Brian Park around 287 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 1: and a number of other parks, both in New York 288 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 1: and throughout the United States and actually elsewhere in the world. 289 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 1: Let's talk a little bit about your company mission and 290 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:53,800 Speaker 1: what should be the proper role of government in these 291 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 1: in these public spaces. So, but by somewhat serendipity, you 292 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:02,760 Speaker 1: end up getting involved in Brian Park. A decade later, 293 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 1: the park reopens, it's a huge success. It's literally a 294 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 1: jewel in the midst of Manhattan. Everybody, everybody around it 295 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 1: just loves it. I have lunch, they're pretty regularly, all 296 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 1: the all the food vendors and all the stores adjacent 297 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 1: to it. These guys just you know, they can't get 298 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 1: people through the register fast. Um. You go in there 299 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 1: on a on a bright spring day and it's wall 300 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 1: to wall people. It's just it's just beautiful. Barrier. I 301 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 1: should and I start to interrupt the As a job creator, 302 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 1: these projects are enormous. Briant Park had one and a 303 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 1: half jobs when we took it over. Now, between the restaurants, 304 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 1: among the restaurant's kiosks. The programming we do there, it's 305 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 1: about a thousand jobs really, and the park we're doing 306 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 1: a new work. We have the same aspirations for that 307 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 1: to create employment in a city like Nework that really 308 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 1: needs so. So that leads me to my next question. 309 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 1: So you finished Brian Park and it's a huge success. 310 00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 1: At that point, you're saying to yourself, gee, this is 311 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 1: kind of a union space. It doesn't seem like anybody 312 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:06,680 Speaker 1: else is doing anything with this. How did you then say, Okay, 313 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 1: we have this new model and we're going to take it. 314 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:10,919 Speaker 1: We'll take it national, all right? Was lucky. I had 315 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:14,120 Speaker 1: another product in Manhattan which is taking over whole neighborhoods 316 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:16,879 Speaker 1: through what are known as business improvement Districts s I 317 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:20,200 Speaker 1: d s. I see them every on street corners, people 318 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 1: sweeping up, you see them throughout Manhattan. So we were 319 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 1: the first to do it on a large scale basis. 320 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:29,800 Speaker 1: And my firm BRV actually does create them and doctor them. 321 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:32,720 Speaker 1: It's a smaller product because uh, and it's a b 322 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 1: r V is a not for profit, Is that right? 323 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 1: My My firm is a for profit company, which is 324 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:40,200 Speaker 1: the development profit Brian Park in thirty fourth Street or 325 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 1: run is not for profits, but with private sector bias, 326 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 1: we're only incidentally not for profits. So um uh. The 327 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:52,919 Speaker 1: there are numerous parks. The traditional way of fixing or 328 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 1: creating parks is higher landscape architect come up with some 329 00:17:56,680 --> 00:18:00,240 Speaker 1: ideas that are designed only, and then spend a lot 330 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:03,200 Speaker 1: of money and open it and I hope people show up. Um, 331 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:05,960 Speaker 1: you guys have a much more holistic approach. We start 332 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 1: with programming and define define programming. It's not just movies 333 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 1: on Fridays, exactly right. You use it a very different way. 334 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 1: The word well said. It's a combination of things that 335 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 1: will make audiences arrived not only at peak times like 336 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 1: lunch and after work, but also in between. So in 337 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 1: Brian Park you can do about forty free things and 338 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 1: the park we have in Dallas. In the park we're 339 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:30,800 Speaker 1: doing a new work. You can learn to knit, you 340 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:34,200 Speaker 1: can learn a language, you can listen to authors push 341 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:36,919 Speaker 1: their book, you can listen to business talks. This is 342 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:40,439 Speaker 1: all spread throughout the park. That's what should drive the 343 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:43,400 Speaker 1: design and the turnaround, not spending a lot of money 344 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:46,080 Speaker 1: in a fancy architect. There are just too many cases 345 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:50,399 Speaker 1: where fancy l a's or landscape architects or architects have 346 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:52,879 Speaker 1: been paid to make a great space, and then the 347 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:55,920 Speaker 1: space opens and nobody comes. Programming is what drives people. 348 00:18:56,080 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 1: It begins with bringing the crowds there, and how everything 349 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 1: looks is subordinate to that utility, to the functionality of 350 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:05,959 Speaker 1: the park. You could you don't want to do this, 351 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:10,119 Speaker 1: but you could theoretically have a busy park with relatively 352 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:14,720 Speaker 1: cruddy uh surfaces and the like. The public notices the 353 00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:17,800 Speaker 1: activities more than they notice the appointments. But obviously we 354 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:21,640 Speaker 1: try to be exquisite in the physical way, also by 355 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 1: paying attention to every detail, no letter, no graffiti, um 356 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 1: washing everything. Having exceptionally good public restrooms, which is a 357 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:33,359 Speaker 1: real thing. That's the nicest public restaurant. Ourselves on it, 358 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 1: and it's hard to do. We learned a lot about 359 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:38,640 Speaker 1: restrooms that in my NBA class, I'm the only one 360 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:42,720 Speaker 1: who was a minor in restroom management. I think nobody's 361 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:45,680 Speaker 1: what's interested in that. There's literally a book called where 362 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 1: to Go, and it gives you a list of all 363 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 1: the public whatever in New York and the Brian Park 364 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:56,639 Speaker 1: are the nicest bathrooms in this We try to be 365 00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:58,119 Speaker 1: as good as the ones in the plaza and the 366 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:00,320 Speaker 1: st regis, and we kind of send people up there. 367 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:04,400 Speaker 1: They're they're literally bouquets of flowers in the restroom. It's 368 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:08,200 Speaker 1: not what you would expect from a public park restaurant. 369 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:10,480 Speaker 1: We had to convince women that we had a public 370 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:12,640 Speaker 1: restroom they could trust. So the first thing you see 371 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 1: when you go through the door is the bouquet of flowers. 372 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:16,800 Speaker 1: And we can see women saying, well, they're not going 373 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:18,159 Speaker 1: to do that if this is going to be a 374 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:22,480 Speaker 1: crummy place to go. So that's that's that's a That 375 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:29,240 Speaker 1: was a lot of psychology in development spaces, including including bathrooms. 376 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:31,120 Speaker 1: And in the last minute we have in this segment, 377 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 1: let's talk just about uh, the idea of governance. How 378 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:38,119 Speaker 1: do you govern a park this size. It's good to 379 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:40,840 Speaker 1: get a group together. If if it has to be nonprofits, 380 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:43,920 Speaker 1: so be it. But the group should have property owners 381 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:47,400 Speaker 1: who have a a real stake. UM. Some public officials can't 382 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:49,480 Speaker 1: be a majority of them, because otherwise you're off to 383 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:53,200 Speaker 1: the races with the way government's always operated. And then 384 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 1: other people who are interested. Tenants are a good group 385 00:20:56,119 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 1: to include, UM and UM solent to staff as well. 386 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:03,639 Speaker 1: As money. Yeah, that's right, and I you know, you know, 387 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:07,399 Speaker 1: it's not a dictatorship. I have to answer to a board. 388 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 1: But after thirty five years of doing this, they tend 389 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 1: to concede that I know what I'm doing, so I 390 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:13,760 Speaker 1: get a lot of freedom to run the thing the 391 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,119 Speaker 1: way I want. I'm Barry Ritt Helps. You're listening to 392 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 1: Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio. My special guest today 393 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 1: is Dan Biederman of Bietterman Development Ventures. They are the 394 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 1: firm that helped turn around Brian Park and literally dozens 395 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:32,680 Speaker 1: of other parks throughout the country. And before the break, 396 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:37,719 Speaker 1: we were talking about the proper role of government in 397 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 1: these public spaces and and so let's get into that 398 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 1: what should be the proper role of government the faults 399 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 1: of government and running services besides parks, but parks is 400 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:54,840 Speaker 1: part of it is they tend to over uh spend 401 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 1: and undercollect so the profit and law statement comes out 402 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:03,880 Speaker 1: as skew. They're for forcing them to assess people who 403 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:06,120 Speaker 1: are the taxpayers a lot more than they might otherwise 404 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:08,440 Speaker 1: have to. Now, when we were talking about Brian Park 405 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 1: in the beginning, you said they had a hundred thousand 406 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:13,920 Speaker 1: dollar budget in the nineteen eighties. That seems like nothing, 407 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:16,920 Speaker 1: that that was just neglect. But in the cases where 408 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 1: government does something a new, they tend to make deals 409 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:24,639 Speaker 1: that are above market on the employees side, and then 410 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 1: there are revenue sources that they could be collecting from that. 411 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 1: Because it's not a for profit company, nobody pays attention 412 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:34,959 Speaker 1: to the Most governments have a revenue source or two, 413 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:38,679 Speaker 1: mostly taxes and then some fines, but the private sector 414 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:41,120 Speaker 1: looks for every dollar it can in many different ways. 415 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 1: So Brian Park has five different revenue sources. We collect 416 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 1: from the restaurants and chios in the park over three 417 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:52,560 Speaker 1: million dollars a year in rent. We have sponsors of 418 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 1: some of our more prominent activities like the skating rink 419 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:58,240 Speaker 1: and winter. Bank of America has been fabulous sponsor for 420 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 1: three years. Their new headquarters is right on the corner 421 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:04,359 Speaker 1: of the park opposite directly opposite forty and they've been 422 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 1: ending America terrific. HSBC is a sponsor. Southwest Airlines has 423 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:11,399 Speaker 1: naming rights to a chios there um and so, and 424 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:14,200 Speaker 1: we've had events from well, I'll get to that later. 425 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 1: The sponsorships a loan or about five million dollars the 426 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:22,480 Speaker 1: events we have introducing products. Everybody from Starbucks to Microsoft 427 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,960 Speaker 1: to uh T Mobile has introduced products in Brian Park 428 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:28,760 Speaker 1: because of its prominence. Doesn't take much time and it's rare, 429 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 1: but when they do it, we make them pay for it. 430 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:33,399 Speaker 1: That's another million and a half. And then there's a 431 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 1: surrounding business improvement district we mentioned that's about a million 432 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:38,919 Speaker 1: and a half also, and then drives and dribs of 433 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 1: other things. We do some merchandizing, not very successfully. Total 434 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:45,080 Speaker 1: of about twelve million dollars in revenue. So that's how 435 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,560 Speaker 1: we got to that. Didn't a rock Center and uh 436 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:51,600 Speaker 1: A rouse number. So if this wasn't if this wasn't 437 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:56,359 Speaker 1: a U corporation running this, what would the city be 438 00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:00,560 Speaker 1: spending on on Brian Park on its own? They probably 439 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 1: by this point I figured it out a bit and 440 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 1: have a bigger budget, but but not twelve million dollars 441 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 1: and it would be heavy in um you talk about 442 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:14,439 Speaker 1: minimum wage changes, this with the employees or the porters 443 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:17,479 Speaker 1: would be making thirty dollars an hour. That's not the market. 444 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:20,880 Speaker 1: So you're nice to your people and you're generous with them, 445 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:22,919 Speaker 1: but you can't pay them. You can't over pay, you 446 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:27,399 Speaker 1: can't pay. The pension deals are so unsustainable, and states 447 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 1: like New Jersey and Illinois that those states are constantly 448 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 1: threatened with bankruptcy. Truth, So you you can't do that 449 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:36,399 Speaker 1: if you're a private operator of a public space. A 450 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:39,800 Speaker 1: little trivia about Illinois, they stopped paying out their lottery 451 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:42,960 Speaker 1: winners for a while because they literally didn't have the money. 452 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 1: So not only is the whole thing a sucker bet 453 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 1: that the odds are dramatically against you winning, but even 454 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 1: if you win, you may not get paid because now 455 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:55,200 Speaker 1: you have counterparty risk, which is really quite amazing. So 456 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:57,880 Speaker 1: so let's talk about some of these other parks and 457 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:01,680 Speaker 1: how the government there interact with the private sector. So 458 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:05,440 Speaker 1: in Dallas, you have the Clyde Warren Park, and that's 459 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 1: sort of an unusual situation because you had a highway 460 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:12,399 Speaker 1: kind of dividing the city in half. How did the 461 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 1: park change that kept the highway and we did a 462 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:20,640 Speaker 1: beautiful park with a ton of activity. And there's some 463 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:23,920 Speaker 1: very wealthy people and public spirited people in Dallas. Jody 464 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:27,760 Speaker 1: grant um and and it was ahead with his wife, Sheila, 465 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 1: and they made a major difference by making a deal 466 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 1: with the mayor that the private sector would essentially finance 467 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:36,399 Speaker 1: the park and a little bit more if the state 468 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:39,359 Speaker 1: of Texas and the city financed the and a little 469 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:44,879 Speaker 1: federal help from uh uh federal funds. UH did the cap. 470 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:47,159 Speaker 1: So it was a good You say, the cap? What is? 471 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:50,360 Speaker 1: What is the cap? Essentially A it's it's currently being 472 00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:53,120 Speaker 1: thought of in many other cities. It's covering the highway 473 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:57,640 Speaker 1: so that the noise of an interstate does not ruin 474 00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 1: the adjacent neighborhoods in the city. Atlanta's considering it now 475 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:03,240 Speaker 1: l A. I don't think l A is going to 476 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:04,800 Speaker 1: get there because the costs are gonna be too eye. 477 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 1: And the great thing about Texas is construction costs are 478 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 1: incredibly reasonable. Why is that? Uh? An expensive labor from 479 00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:15,240 Speaker 1: over the border of sense of unions has something to 480 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 1: do it. This project, soup to nuts, including the park, 481 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 1: was a D three million dollars. I guarantee you in 482 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:24,760 Speaker 1: the Northeast that would have been half a billion and 483 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:27,399 Speaker 1: at least and wouldn't have happened either. But if it 484 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:29,879 Speaker 1: had happened, would have been happened. Speaking of the Northeast, 485 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 1: before I want to ask you about well, let's go 486 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,280 Speaker 1: right to Canal Side in Buffalo. So this was a 487 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 1: vacant space that was kind of just being ignored. What 488 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:41,440 Speaker 1: happened with that that space, Well, they've already started to 489 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:43,880 Speaker 1: be fair before we got there. It's a very good 490 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 1: and give government Gunner Cuomo some credit. It's a very 491 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 1: good state agency Erie Canal Harvard Development Corporation, which run 492 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:53,879 Speaker 1: by smart people, and they they liked the idea of 493 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:58,160 Speaker 1: the programming and they've really energized the area, um with 494 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 1: not so much money of the taxpayer as some of 495 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:04,639 Speaker 1: the other elements of Buffalo. Uh. And you know, I've 496 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:08,199 Speaker 1: got a public space with concerts and and food and 497 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 1: beverage and skating rank that's really a credit to downtown Buffalo. 498 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:15,440 Speaker 1: And uh there's development that's been generated around it, partly 499 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:19,119 Speaker 1: by the space, partly just by good Buffalo developers like 500 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:23,280 Speaker 1: Benderson and the owners of the Buffalo Sabers doing major things. 501 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:25,560 Speaker 1: So if you haven't been in Buffalo, awhile, it's worth 502 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,159 Speaker 1: looking at the real progress there. So two things I 503 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,840 Speaker 1: would be remiss if I didn't discuss. One is the 504 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:36,160 Speaker 1: high Line Park in Manhattan, which talk about real estate 505 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 1: prices only unbelievable that's all. Now you're what was your um, 506 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:46,399 Speaker 1: I've said when I was describing this conversation to people 507 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:49,439 Speaker 1: in advance, I've said, if you like the high Line, 508 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,400 Speaker 1: which is a huge hit amongst both New York City 509 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:57,240 Speaker 1: residents and tourists, I think that never would have happened 510 00:27:57,280 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 1: if it wasn't for the Bryant Park. I don't know 511 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:00,760 Speaker 1: if I can take it for it, but I will 512 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:05,840 Speaker 1: say I'm giving you a little bit thank you. Jamestown. Uh, 513 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:08,200 Speaker 1: the owner adjacent paid me a little bit of money 514 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,760 Speaker 1: to advise Rob Hammond, who's the U one of the 515 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,240 Speaker 1: founders of Friends of the high Line, and he listened 516 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:16,399 Speaker 1: to what we said. He was he was a good client. 517 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 1: So I only had a minor role, but they did 518 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:22,920 Speaker 1: go for some of the stuff that we did in brand. 519 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,119 Speaker 1: It's worked out really well. And Um there's a park 520 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 1: that's I believe it's in the midst of of um 521 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:34,439 Speaker 1: construction that was a former subway station that's reopening the 522 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:37,399 Speaker 1: low Line. Yeah, but they're trying to model after the 523 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:39,840 Speaker 1: high Line, and it's kind of clever, but it is underground. 524 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:42,320 Speaker 1: It doesn't have the views that thought a little darker. Yes, 525 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:44,440 Speaker 1: I don't know much about it, but they did call 526 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 1: to ask some questions. It's nice to so outside of Manhattan, 527 00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:52,280 Speaker 1: outside of New York, what are the areas have you 528 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 1: guys been working in and and what other successes have 529 00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 1: you had in the United States or the the the 530 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 1: ones we always point to that are really finished our Dallas, 531 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:04,280 Speaker 1: Pittsburgh and Newark. And Pittsburgh, what used to be a 532 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:06,880 Speaker 1: parking lot next to the Cathedral of Learning was one 533 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:11,200 Speaker 1: of our early parks. It's called Shenley Plaza. Terrific improvement 534 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:13,160 Speaker 1: in Pittsburgh's a great city to work in and there's 535 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:15,080 Speaker 1: a lot of good stuff in new Work. We don't 536 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:17,400 Speaker 1: think of anything getting done when we think of New Wark, 537 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,120 Speaker 1: what what was that park? Thanks to Ray Chambers, who's 538 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:23,600 Speaker 1: UH buyout guy, who then devoted the rest of his 539 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:28,440 Speaker 1: career to fixing downtown Newark and Mayor Booker the UH 540 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,200 Speaker 1: and PROW which has been a key backer along with 541 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:35,440 Speaker 1: a few others potential and prudentials right there. They their 542 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:38,680 Speaker 1: foundation has been deeply involved. We really took a part 543 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 1: very similar in its role there to Brian Park and 544 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:43,840 Speaker 1: have turned it into a lively space after years of 545 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:46,960 Speaker 1: it being vacant. It's called Military Park. It's between the 546 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 1: arena and the New Jersey Performing Arts Center. PROW just 547 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:53,920 Speaker 1: built a new headquarters type building on top of it, 548 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:57,880 Speaker 1: right next to it. And there were some who said, 549 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,360 Speaker 1: and I always annoyed me, Well, Bryant Park can only 550 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 1: be done where there are a lot of yuppies around 551 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 1: and huge office buildings, and and and and it wouldn't 552 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:08,320 Speaker 1: it's not relevant to the minority community. Newark's a majority 553 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:13,680 Speaker 1: minority city. And uh, they have been excellent. The residents 554 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 1: and office workers around there have been excellent patrons of 555 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:19,760 Speaker 1: the park. So it's it's a kind of weird thing 556 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: to say minorities don't like parks and outdoor spaces. That's 557 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:28,080 Speaker 1: a weird perspective. They're actually the Newark residents who are 558 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:31,080 Speaker 1: using it are actually better for us because they'll they'll 559 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:34,280 Speaker 1: spend a little more time there, are a little more patient. Um, 560 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:38,800 Speaker 1: they're a little less on their iPhones and um. It's 561 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,640 Speaker 1: it's been a wonderful thing to see the social fabric 562 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:45,320 Speaker 1: of the park change. We put a restaurants, tiny restaurant 563 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:49,920 Speaker 1: in that's Salzburger's pretty inexpensively and that was hard to arrange. 564 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 1: You're doing free WiFi, and all of these parks wif 565 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 1: park is a hugely successful WiFi thing, and they're hard 566 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:57,920 Speaker 1: to set up. Everybody says they have WiFi, but half 567 00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:00,040 Speaker 1: the time doesn't work very well. But the one of 568 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,280 Speaker 1: Newark really is working well, and we worked well with 569 00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:06,960 Speaker 1: the government of Mayor Booker. Mayor Baraka has has continued. 570 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:10,040 Speaker 1: He's been great. He's visited the park three times to 571 00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:13,440 Speaker 1: read his poetry and play chess and the like. And Um, 572 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:16,560 Speaker 1: the WiFi system was specked by the city and we 573 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:19,600 Speaker 1: extended beyond the park and now you've got free WiFi 574 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:22,959 Speaker 1: in that vicinity. Really in new Work, we've been speaking 575 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:26,959 Speaker 1: with Dan Biederman of Beeteman Redevelopment Ventures discussing the public 576 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:30,720 Speaker 1: and private space. If you enjoy this conversation, be sure 577 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 1: and stick around for a podcast extras where we keep 578 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 1: the digital tape rolling and continue chatting. Be sure and 579 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:40,880 Speaker 1: check out my daily column on Bloomberg View dot com 580 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:44,840 Speaker 1: or follow me on Twitter at rid Halts. I'm Barry 581 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:47,400 Speaker 1: rid Halts. So you've been listening to Masters in Business 582 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:51,840 Speaker 1: on Bloomberg Radio. Welcome to the podcast. Um, Dan, thank 583 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:53,720 Speaker 1: you so much for doing this. This has really been 584 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 1: a fascinating Charlie makes fun of me every time I 585 00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:59,840 Speaker 1: say that, but this is fascinating stuff. And in the 586 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:03,080 Speaker 1: intro I said, you may be the person who is 587 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 1: on a fractional basis least known to greatest impact to 588 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 1: the public. I can't count how many people do you 589 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:16,600 Speaker 1: guys track through Brian Park in any given year? Six 590 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:20,120 Speaker 1: million different visits, not six million different individuals, but there 591 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 1: are six million visits a year. It's it's the most 592 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,520 Speaker 1: crowded per acre public space in the world, in the 593 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:28,800 Speaker 1: whole world. I gotta think more people go through um 594 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,040 Speaker 1: Central Park, but that's hundreds and hundreds of acre. Their 595 00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:35,920 Speaker 1: visitor count I think is in the twenty four million range, 596 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:39,040 Speaker 1: ining like that, But but they're hundreds of times were 597 00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:43,600 Speaker 1: six acres but there's no People always throw up possibilities. 598 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,840 Speaker 1: Trafalgar Square, I said, Trafugar Square is empty compared to us. 599 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:49,960 Speaker 1: There's really Yeah, well, they have big events, but there 600 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 1: that's a one off, right, What about places in Shanghai 601 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,840 Speaker 1: or Hong Kong. You know, Shanghai doesn't have anything with 602 00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 1: that kind of congestion. I've seen some great parks in Beijing, 603 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:03,400 Speaker 1: but they get crowded they send in the text, it's 604 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 1: not it's not as crowded as Bryant Briant as jammed 605 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:08,800 Speaker 1: and we we like it that way. Do you UM, 606 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,560 Speaker 1: have you guys looked overseas? Have people reached out to 607 00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:13,840 Speaker 1: you from other countries other places? You know? I haven't 608 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:16,480 Speaker 1: made a big thing of it. I've There are five 609 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:22,520 Speaker 1: countries where I've done some advising the UK, Singapore, Finland, UM, 610 00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:27,360 Speaker 1: Israel and Canada. Yeah, and UM, Singapore, so that's pretty 611 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,280 Speaker 1: far afield that they have something called the Urban Redevelopment 612 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:33,920 Speaker 1: Agency which is very successful and UM I've been on 613 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:37,600 Speaker 1: their advisory panel once or twice. And basically, though our 614 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:40,000 Speaker 1: work is in North America, I've done a fair amount 615 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:44,280 Speaker 1: of work in Toronto now and UM the same basic concept. 616 00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:48,280 Speaker 1: They take your model and reproduced. Do you have any competitors? 617 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:50,760 Speaker 1: Are there any other businesses doing what you do? It's 618 00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:54,880 Speaker 1: interesting the competition is to do parts the traditional way 619 00:33:55,640 --> 00:34:00,640 Speaker 1: with landscape architects and architects, and that's not us. UM. 620 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:04,240 Speaker 1: We have a really narrow niche. And UH, there are 621 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 1: a couple of economic consulting firms that say they do 622 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:10,080 Speaker 1: what we do, but they've kind of been derivatives, but 623 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 1: we're it's it's a very narrow niche, which is the disadvantage. 624 00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 1: But the great thing is that we created the field. 625 00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 1: You own the space. So we got a lot of 626 00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:21,399 Speaker 1: calls and we don't. We do some marketing, but not much. 627 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:24,359 Speaker 1: We mainly get incoming inquiries from people who have been 628 00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:26,959 Speaker 1: visited our places. That that was my next question is 629 00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:30,120 Speaker 1: is there enough work to keep a firm busy full time? 630 00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:34,640 Speaker 1: How many employees are thirteen employees, nine full time, four 631 00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:38,240 Speaker 1: part time? It's very small and uh, there's plenty of work. 632 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:41,759 Speaker 1: I'm as my wife predicted UM a long time ago. 633 00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:44,040 Speaker 1: Your only problem is going to be staffing the work. 634 00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:46,520 Speaker 1: They're gonna be lined up around the block when you open. 635 00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:48,880 Speaker 1: This took a while for that to happen. But it's busy. 636 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:51,880 Speaker 1: So what other Let's let's go over some other parks 637 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:55,160 Speaker 1: elsewhere where else have you Well? These are cities were 638 00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 1: in starting from the west, Honolulu, San Francisco, Oakland, Actu 639 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:10,320 Speaker 1: Really Now l A, Tempe, Arizona, Houston, Dallas, Green Bay, Detroit, Buffalo, Toronto, Atlanta, 640 00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:15,520 Speaker 1: um Newark, Greensboro, North Carolina, Boston. So we've talked about 641 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:20,520 Speaker 1: we've talked about these huge successes. What hasn't worked out? Um. 642 00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:25,200 Speaker 1: Once in a while, a company, but more often a 643 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:29,640 Speaker 1: government wants you to answer the questions they ask you 644 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:32,120 Speaker 1: as a consult in a certain way. And I have 645 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:34,000 Speaker 1: to give my little speech which I was taught when 646 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:36,200 Speaker 1: I was at my first job after business school. American 647 00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:39,840 Speaker 1: management systems really good, smart, gut bunch of guys no 648 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:44,160 Speaker 1: longer exists. They were sold, but they said, as a consultant, 649 00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:45,719 Speaker 1: you need to tell the client. Do you want me 650 00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:47,200 Speaker 1: to tell you what you want to hear or you 651 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:49,000 Speaker 1: want me to tell you what you need to hear? 652 00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:52,279 Speaker 1: The right answer. Um. Once in a while we get 653 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:56,480 Speaker 1: a client who wants us to give them the answer 654 00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:58,319 Speaker 1: they wanted to hear when they brought us in, which 655 00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:01,400 Speaker 1: is very often the wrong answer. And it's usually a 656 00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:05,040 Speaker 1: government agency, but sometimes a private player. UM. And then 657 00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:07,520 Speaker 1: the the other kind of client. That's the challenges. They 658 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:10,440 Speaker 1: are more interested in how much they pay than in 659 00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:13,080 Speaker 1: how much success they have. They only look at the 660 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:16,359 Speaker 1: expense side of the ledger with you. UM. So we've 661 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:19,440 Speaker 1: had a few of those, but I would say of 662 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:22,280 Speaker 1: the client experiences have been great, and I speak highly 663 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:23,759 Speaker 1: of all of them, and I hope they speak well 664 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:26,160 Speaker 1: of me. So when you set one of these up, 665 00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:30,960 Speaker 1: how much of the funding is coming from outside government? 666 00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:35,680 Speaker 1: From revenue you generate in the park, plus whatever initial 667 00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:40,200 Speaker 1: seed funding comes from the surrounding good questionities, real estate companies, whatever. 668 00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:44,120 Speaker 1: We start from the desire to have it all private funding, 669 00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:47,920 Speaker 1: all private funding. I didn't make a big fetish of 670 00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:51,600 Speaker 1: that in the broadcast, But the the aim is not 671 00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:55,200 Speaker 1: to be beholden to government practices because you don't have 672 00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:58,799 Speaker 1: government money. Uh So Brent Park has not taken any 673 00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:03,479 Speaker 1: government money of editing level, uh since it was founded. Wait, 674 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:06,400 Speaker 1: so that the park is running for all these years, 675 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:10,279 Speaker 1: since it opened in nine and New York City taxpayers 676 00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:12,600 Speaker 1: are not paying for that, not a penny they actually 677 00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:15,680 Speaker 1: there was an initial kind of good by payment that 678 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:21,160 Speaker 1: ended in and since twenty years no no government money, 679 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:25,160 Speaker 1: and some clients can't afford that. But generally, meaning there's 680 00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:28,720 Speaker 1: not the density that'll cover that. I mean, not only 681 00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:32,279 Speaker 1: they aren't the varieties of programming that would allow you 682 00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:36,400 Speaker 1: to exclude government money. Um. I'm trying to think of 683 00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:38,640 Speaker 1: an example where we're gonna have to take government money 684 00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:42,719 Speaker 1: like I would think San Francisco has enough population coursing 685 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:46,239 Speaker 1: through a downtown space that that should be easy. But 686 00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:49,840 Speaker 1: Temple Arizona maybe not the same volume of people, not 687 00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:54,680 Speaker 1: as not as concentrated um uh density. But we're talking 688 00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:58,239 Speaker 1: to the Tempee people about a possible use of the 689 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:01,600 Speaker 1: techniques we use to build our capital plan, which is 690 00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:05,919 Speaker 1: borrowing money um using the government's in New York City 691 00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:09,880 Speaker 1: triple tax exempt capacity issue a bond in order to 692 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,520 Speaker 1: build issue bonds. We repay they they're not on the 693 00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:15,040 Speaker 1: hook for penty of it, and so it's just an 694 00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:18,239 Speaker 1: expensive source of capital. Yeah, we're the debt service and 695 00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:21,640 Speaker 1: that's been fifty million dollars total over the over the run. 696 00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:24,400 Speaker 1: And that's how Grand Central and thirty fourth Street got 697 00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:30,080 Speaker 1: built with that technique, rather than asking government for capital funds, 698 00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:34,200 Speaker 1: which is always a very difficult and in eastern and 699 00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:36,879 Speaker 1: West coast cities it's usually tied to some labor deal. 700 00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:39,160 Speaker 1: It's very expensive. So so let's talk a little bit 701 00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:43,600 Speaker 1: about the thirty four Street Business Development company you have 702 00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:47,120 Speaker 1: that goes from the Empire State Building fifth and thirty 703 00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:51,319 Speaker 1: four little east of that actually to Macy's where you 704 00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,640 Speaker 1: have what is that horrors Greeley Park or something really 705 00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:56,720 Speaker 1: part to the south and Herald Square to the north, 706 00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:00,000 Speaker 1: and all the way west past that to the edge 707 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:03,879 Speaker 1: of Hudson Yard's past Penn Station, the post office. That's 708 00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:07,320 Speaker 1: all an area run by a business improvement district. Not everything, 709 00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:10,000 Speaker 1: but most of what you see there as a member 710 00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:13,359 Speaker 1: of the public, the litter collection, the Capital plant, UH, 711 00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:16,400 Speaker 1: security officers parks is run by our b I D. 712 00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:20,719 Speaker 1: And that's funded privately as well, all private money. We 713 00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:25,120 Speaker 1: don't accept any government money. Really that that's quite fascinating. UM. 714 00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:27,600 Speaker 1: Tell me about a challenge. What was a park that 715 00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:30,200 Speaker 1: turned out to be successful that when you first came 716 00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:32,160 Speaker 1: across it you had to scratch your head a little 717 00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:36,240 Speaker 1: bit and say, here's what's going on here, uh Seattle. UM, 718 00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:38,960 Speaker 1: that's hugely successful. In that case, we're not running it. 719 00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:42,319 Speaker 1: We very often at that distance tell them what to 720 00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:44,160 Speaker 1: do and then back off. And there was a very 721 00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:47,560 Speaker 1: good group that Downtown Seattle Association that took our recommendations 722 00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:51,359 Speaker 1: whole and UM running with it. It's usually successful. It's 723 00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:55,360 Speaker 1: called Occidental Park. It's a couple of blocks from the 724 00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:58,840 Speaker 1: Stadia there UH in the neighborhood known as Pioneer Square. 725 00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:02,080 Speaker 1: This was a truly violent space. It was drugs, a 726 00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:04,720 Speaker 1: lot like Brian Park at the beginning, drugs and really 727 00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:08,120 Speaker 1: bad guys hanging out and victimizing people. TOMPs of tech 728 00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:10,359 Speaker 1: companies a couple of blocks away, none of them were 729 00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:13,359 Speaker 1: using it. The employees weren't there. So we told them 730 00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:16,239 Speaker 1: how to program and how to spend a little bit 731 00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:19,600 Speaker 1: of money without government on various things. The Seattle Parks 732 00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:23,759 Speaker 1: Foundation in Downtown Seattle Association ran with it, and it's 733 00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:26,840 Speaker 1: a real turnaround. I keep track of it long distance. 734 00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:30,799 Speaker 1: We're done, and they were very grateful. John Schules is 735 00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:33,359 Speaker 1: then now a new head of the Downtown Seattle Association. 736 00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:35,759 Speaker 1: Why do I know that name? He's He's It came 737 00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:38,319 Speaker 1: up through the ranks. But John said, this has been 738 00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:40,960 Speaker 1: a huge success, and we're really grateful. I'm sure they're 739 00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:44,000 Speaker 1: spreading the word that this is a great approach, quite 740 00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:49,000 Speaker 1: quite fascinating. So you mentioned Canada and Singapore. Most of 741 00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:52,480 Speaker 1: it has been in the US. Do you find a 742 00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:56,040 Speaker 1: difference between cities on the coasts and cities in the 743 00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:59,160 Speaker 1: mainland in the United States. I come back to New 744 00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:01,919 Speaker 1: York sometime to press that I'm back in a tough 745 00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:06,040 Speaker 1: environment for my field. Um, it's easier in the middle 746 00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:08,840 Speaker 1: of the country. Yeah, the why is that? Are people 747 00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:12,880 Speaker 1: nicer or is it just there everybody's kind of on 748 00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:16,040 Speaker 1: the same page and you don't have the intrinsic interest 749 00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:21,640 Speaker 1: groups fighting. It's two things, um um unions. UM. I 750 00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:25,960 Speaker 1: think New York State is thirty union workforce, astonishing number, 751 00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:30,560 Speaker 1: New Jersey, California. Really unions are in very good control 752 00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:33,080 Speaker 1: of legislative processes. And there's unions have been on the 753 00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:36,120 Speaker 1: wayne nationally for a long time. What is it, less 754 00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:39,280 Speaker 1: than five percent of workers are now and the number 755 00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:41,399 Speaker 1: is tiny compared to what it was a century ago, 756 00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:44,560 Speaker 1: a half a century ago. But um not um, but 757 00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:49,239 Speaker 1: not immunist about those states so much so. UM. That 758 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:51,759 Speaker 1: is one difference. In the second is there really is 759 00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:57,000 Speaker 1: a difference in terms of the belief in um capitalist system. 760 00:41:57,040 --> 00:41:59,360 Speaker 1: I don't have to I started a speech once in 761 00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:02,040 Speaker 1: Dallas about this is the reason our parks work. And 762 00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:04,720 Speaker 1: part of my pitch was that, you know, the freaner 763 00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:07,920 Speaker 1: prise system is a good thing. And they were one 764 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:09,960 Speaker 1: of the guys on the board waved his arms at Dan, 765 00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:12,400 Speaker 1: you don't have to make that speech. Here. We got 766 00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:18,359 Speaker 1: this is Uh, that's the difference. Um. The uh terms 767 00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:21,640 Speaker 1: of employment a real threat to our field. Um, it's 768 00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:24,760 Speaker 1: not just me, it's the little organizations that are doing 769 00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:29,120 Speaker 1: the same thing in parks and neighborhoods. Is this specifying 770 00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:32,160 Speaker 1: of the terms of employment by government which is happening 771 00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:35,840 Speaker 1: in states like New York, New Jersey and Washington and California. 772 00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:38,560 Speaker 1: But when you say specified terms of well, we now 773 00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:42,160 Speaker 1: have in some of the cities in those states, UM 774 00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:47,799 Speaker 1: minimum wages of fifteen dollars, um, UM specified amount of 775 00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:52,360 Speaker 1: sick leave in New York City, UM, specified amount of 776 00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:55,680 Speaker 1: maternity leave. A lot of these things I did voluntarily. 777 00:42:55,719 --> 00:43:01,160 Speaker 1: But to legislate across every business in your environment and 778 00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:03,920 Speaker 1: say all of you must do the following things, really, 779 00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:06,920 Speaker 1: in my mind, goes too far, and for little efforts. 780 00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:08,799 Speaker 1: We try to do a lot with little. If you're 781 00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:11,520 Speaker 1: a little company, it's whether you're a for profit or 782 00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:15,960 Speaker 1: not for profit. It's really difficult to uh do this 783 00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:20,480 Speaker 1: fifteen dollar So Seattle going up to fifteen dollars by 784 00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:24,600 Speaker 1: what it's phased until I think the nineteen but there 785 00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:26,719 Speaker 1: that is in the next three or four years. Yeah, 786 00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:30,600 Speaker 1: it's gonna hurt their ability to do things like pick 787 00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:34,040 Speaker 1: up paper in parts that they privately managed and they 788 00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:36,759 Speaker 1: know that, but the mayor's behind it and they have 789 00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:39,400 Speaker 1: to be behind it. And I thought it was companies 790 00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:41,680 Speaker 1: with fifty people or more. Am I confusing that with 791 00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:44,120 Speaker 1: something else? That that was one of the criteria for 792 00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:46,920 Speaker 1: New York. But I don't know if that's true in Seattle. 793 00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:51,080 Speaker 1: But fifteen dollar minimum wage and some lower cost environments, 794 00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:54,040 Speaker 1: Washington is not. It's not New York. It's a very different. 795 00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:57,080 Speaker 1: So let's challenge. Let's let's talk a bit, because restaurants 796 00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:59,520 Speaker 1: are such an important part of the revenue stream for 797 00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:02,479 Speaker 1: these arks. We had Bobby flay on a few months 798 00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:06,359 Speaker 1: ago and he was apoplectic about the changes. He said, 799 00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:08,960 Speaker 1: you can't run a restaurant profitably in New York City anymore. 800 00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:11,920 Speaker 1: Given the changes that are gonna be phased in. There 801 00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:14,480 Speaker 1: are people who live earned their living on tips. I 802 00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:16,799 Speaker 1: can't pay them twelve dollars an hour. That's too much. 803 00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:20,040 Speaker 1: It's gonna be a challenge. The restaurants in Central Park 804 00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:25,880 Speaker 1: UM with UM obviously involvement of the city because they 805 00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:29,160 Speaker 1: own the real estate, are gonna have a challenge because 806 00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:34,080 Speaker 1: the hotel trades council. UM dominates UM their workforces now 807 00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:36,160 Speaker 1: and I don't know if those two will survive. They're 808 00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:38,320 Speaker 1: great place. Has that been the issue with Tavern on 809 00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:40,200 Speaker 1: the Green has been a part of an issue. The 810 00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:42,760 Speaker 1: reason there weren't so many bids on the new Tavern 811 00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:47,880 Speaker 1: deal was that the city imposed uh, the Hotel Trades 812 00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:51,880 Speaker 1: Council on the deal. And but to be fair to 813 00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:53,840 Speaker 1: the city, I think one of le Roy had welcomed 814 00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:55,920 Speaker 1: them in when he owned Tavern on the Green previously, 815 00:44:56,560 --> 00:45:00,520 Speaker 1: So that's UM dicey operation. They think they only got 816 00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:03,719 Speaker 1: two or three bids for what really should have been 817 00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:05,520 Speaker 1: a great opportunity because there was a lot of catering 818 00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:08,920 Speaker 1: postage a ton absolutely at one point in time that 819 00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:11,680 Speaker 1: was also a beautiful restaurant and kind of fell into 820 00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:15,000 Speaker 1: disused disrepair and it it's not what it was. I 821 00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:16,680 Speaker 1: don't know what's going on with it now. I haven't 822 00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:20,239 Speaker 1: They want to representative restaurant, but the volume isn't what 823 00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:23,040 Speaker 1: it was because it was cut down. Warner had turned 824 00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:26,360 Speaker 1: it into a mega megal. It's uh. I think he 825 00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:29,839 Speaker 1: had thirty five million dollars in revenue annually, a part 826 00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:34,759 Speaker 1: of it from catering Uh, and now smaller. So we 827 00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:37,880 Speaker 1: we talked about overseas um and we talked about the 828 00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:41,160 Speaker 1: difference in in coasts. You know, when you look at 829 00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:44,839 Speaker 1: at some of these other projects, what what stands out 830 00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:48,080 Speaker 1: when someone first approaches you with, Hey, we have this 831 00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:50,040 Speaker 1: park and it's kind of a mess and we want 832 00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:53,400 Speaker 1: to clean it up. How do you go about starting 833 00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:56,440 Speaker 1: that process reviewing that? What's that? Like? The first thing 834 00:45:56,480 --> 00:46:00,279 Speaker 1: we do is kind of intriguing market share calculation. Um. 835 00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:03,080 Speaker 1: This comes from a conversation with Eli Broad, who's done 836 00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:06,120 Speaker 1: wonderful things for downtown l A. But Eli was too optimistic, 837 00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:08,920 Speaker 1: in my view about how many people would visit the 838 00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:12,279 Speaker 1: public spaces on Grand Avenue after the Disney Concert Hall 839 00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:16,000 Speaker 1: was built. So UM, I kept warning him, Eli, not 840 00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:17,680 Speaker 1: as many people are going to visit just to see 841 00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:19,960 Speaker 1: the building as you think. And then I said, I 842 00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:22,879 Speaker 1: need to have a systematized way of making that case 843 00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:26,279 Speaker 1: to clients like Eli, who's a smart guy, and you know, 844 00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:30,759 Speaker 1: didn't really believe me. So we created something called a 845 00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:35,440 Speaker 1: visitor market share calculation. We go out depending on the 846 00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:38,280 Speaker 1: walking distance of each city. Dallas has a terribly small 847 00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:42,239 Speaker 1: walking distance. Nobody walks there. Uh, New York, Boston, Washington, 848 00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:45,600 Speaker 1: ter everybody walks. So we go at twelve hundred feet 849 00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:48,680 Speaker 1: in those cities and two hundred or three hundred in Dallas, 850 00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:53,319 Speaker 1: and then we look at the adjacent hotels, office buildings, residences, 851 00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:57,319 Speaker 1: retail shops, museums, and we say, how many people plausibly 852 00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:00,680 Speaker 1: could be in this public space? Uh, and what are 853 00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:02,240 Speaker 1: we gonna have to do to get them there? Because 854 00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:04,960 Speaker 1: our market share at Brian Park sounds small, but it's 855 00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:08,200 Speaker 1: four percent basically of all the people in the surrounding 856 00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:11,160 Speaker 1: area or in Briant Park at lunchtime. And you say, 857 00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:13,239 Speaker 1: what happened the other ninety six And the answer is 858 00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:15,320 Speaker 1: their own vacation, they're on a business trip, they're in 859 00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:20,040 Speaker 1: a conference, they're eating at their desk by the uptown. 860 00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:23,960 Speaker 1: So we lose nineties six percent through no fault of ours, 861 00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:26,600 Speaker 1: But four percent is that's a big number of massive 862 00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:29,799 Speaker 1: But some clients think they're gonna get ten or so 863 00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:32,560 Speaker 1: first time we do is disabuse them of that, say, 864 00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:34,560 Speaker 1: Brian Park has been plugging away doing this for twenty 865 00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:36,960 Speaker 1: five years. You're not going to get higher than four percent. 866 00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:39,799 Speaker 1: And then we say, okay, what's going to drag these 867 00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:42,680 Speaker 1: people in. Is it knitting um seminars like we do 868 00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:45,640 Speaker 1: in Brian Park? Is it juggling clinics? Is it concerts? 869 00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:49,000 Speaker 1: Is it the reading sessions we have? Is that patonk 870 00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:50,920 Speaker 1: is a ping pong? We have a putting green. All 871 00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:53,560 Speaker 1: those things. We put together a bunch of things on 872 00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:56,840 Speaker 1: a map and show the client how we're gonna drag 873 00:47:56,880 --> 00:47:59,640 Speaker 1: people into their space at hours they might not have 874 00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:02,439 Speaker 1: expect to be there, including seasons where in the past 875 00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:05,000 Speaker 1: Brian Park was empty in the winter. For right, it's 876 00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:08,600 Speaker 1: jam Now between the rink and then around the holidays 877 00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:11,640 Speaker 1: are all the all the kiosks selling all these different 878 00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:16,000 Speaker 1: crafts and unique sort of products. It's jam packed when 879 00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:19,239 Speaker 1: you go in there. So um, that's Those are our 880 00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:22,160 Speaker 1: starting points, and from then it's a budget. And then 881 00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:25,360 Speaker 1: only last do we go to the architects and say, okay, 882 00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:27,600 Speaker 1: now draw this up for us. We we saved the 883 00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:31,040 Speaker 1: clients a lot of money by not having them, uh 884 00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:34,600 Speaker 1: spend a lot of money on fancy plans, especially in 885 00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:38,080 Speaker 1: blue states where the construction costs are so high. Dallas 886 00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:40,759 Speaker 1: can afford to do a little bit of that. The 887 00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:43,360 Speaker 1: park really cost about twenty three million, but could have 888 00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:46,239 Speaker 1: been but less. But the same effort in New York 889 00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:48,480 Speaker 1: above the surface of the park would have been three 890 00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:51,080 Speaker 1: times as much. I was gonna say five x. It's 891 00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:54,759 Speaker 1: only three times. Uh, this is never been sure, but 892 00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:58,640 Speaker 1: it would have been very expensive proposition quite quite fascinating. 893 00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:01,959 Speaker 1: So so are some of the other challenges you face. 894 00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:05,120 Speaker 1: You have to get the clients to be realistic. You're 895 00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:08,960 Speaker 1: dealing with politicos, you're dealing with unions. What else is 896 00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:12,360 Speaker 1: a challenge that people may not be aware of that 897 00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:16,560 Speaker 1: involves turning around what's in a great while? We come 898 00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:19,480 Speaker 1: upon something where I say to the staff, you know 899 00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:24,320 Speaker 1: this is pushing on a string to use that ran Well, 900 00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:28,920 Speaker 1: it's it's it's a suburb where there's no particular reason, 901 00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:32,759 Speaker 1: there's no density, and there's no reason people within a 902 00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:34,839 Speaker 1: reasonable distance, we're not going to go there. Even if 903 00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:37,480 Speaker 1: you produce something that's so spectacular that people should want 904 00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:40,160 Speaker 1: to see it as a curiosity once in a while. 905 00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:44,600 Speaker 1: That's a challenge. Other ones are we have there. There's 906 00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:46,759 Speaker 1: a park I won't name in Boston. We we have 907 00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:50,080 Speaker 1: two projects in Boston, South Station and Finnal Hall. There's 908 00:49:50,080 --> 00:49:52,480 Speaker 1: a park I'd like to do there, but the This 909 00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:54,480 Speaker 1: is not the fault of the this mayor or the 910 00:49:54,520 --> 00:49:58,080 Speaker 1: previous mayor. It's the fault of the butters who are 911 00:49:58,239 --> 00:50:00,480 Speaker 1: thinking too small about it. It could be one of 912 00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:03,839 Speaker 1: the great public spaces in the country, surrounded as it 913 00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:08,480 Speaker 1: is by iconic structures, but it's one Another big problem 914 00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:10,960 Speaker 1: is just this small thinking I call it. It's just 915 00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:13,560 Speaker 1: let's collect a little bit of money and turn on 916 00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:15,480 Speaker 1: the fountains and have a concert once in a while, 917 00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:18,080 Speaker 1: and doesn't get it done. It's not that the people 918 00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:21,680 Speaker 1: are not smart, it's that they don't have um the 919 00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:24,719 Speaker 1: frame of reference to think bigger. And that's a big 920 00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:27,840 Speaker 1: problem for my firm. I'm in Chicago pretty regularly and 921 00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:31,919 Speaker 1: I'm always impressed with how well done their public spaces are. 922 00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:34,520 Speaker 1: Have you guys done anything in there? It was funny, 923 00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:37,200 Speaker 1: funny Mayor Dally. I'm very fond of him. Um the 924 00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:39,640 Speaker 1: second Mayor Dally. He was in Brian Park taking notes 925 00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:43,120 Speaker 1: one day and he's chief of staff called me and 926 00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:45,160 Speaker 1: he said he has a question and I said, I'm 927 00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:46,880 Speaker 1: coming right down. I want to meet him. He said, no, 928 00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:48,640 Speaker 1: you please don't do that. He's on his way to 929 00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:52,799 Speaker 1: investment bankers in ten minutes, but he is curious. I said, Okay, Drew, 930 00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:54,520 Speaker 1: I'm gonna give you these answers, but only if I 931 00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:57,680 Speaker 1: can visit him in Chicago. So I went out there, 932 00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:00,560 Speaker 1: had an incredible meeting with him. Ordale. It was a 933 00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:04,000 Speaker 1: great park mayor, and you're right, the parks really have 934 00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:07,400 Speaker 1: been well done. Um. He did it through a park district, 935 00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:09,880 Speaker 1: not through B I d S, not through privatization. He 936 00:51:09,880 --> 00:51:13,240 Speaker 1: didn't really believe in privatization because it's all it's all city. 937 00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:18,560 Speaker 1: But unlike New York and other big cities, Chicago's mayor 938 00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:22,880 Speaker 1: is essentially a benevolent dictator. Uh. And so we have a 939 00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:25,359 Speaker 1: a family there, and one day we were there. We 940 00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:28,000 Speaker 1: were there every Thanksgiving for the past twenty five years, 941 00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:31,120 Speaker 1: and we go to the museums, we go to Second City, 942 00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:34,480 Speaker 1: we do everything. Every I come back ten pounds heavier 943 00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:37,920 Speaker 1: every Thanksgiving. And it ain't the Turkey. But we're walking 944 00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:39,680 Speaker 1: through a park and I'm like, wow, these are really 945 00:51:39,719 --> 00:51:46,040 Speaker 1: beautiful iron uh fencing, not the usual chain link junk, 946 00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:49,520 Speaker 1: but like cast iron or beautiful. And I'm like, when 947 00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:51,879 Speaker 1: did this happen? Stay straight? They did a nice job. 948 00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:54,040 Speaker 1: And you know, I asked him during the meeting. He 949 00:51:54,120 --> 00:51:56,200 Speaker 1: was very detailed, and I said, you know, you know 950 00:51:56,239 --> 00:51:59,759 Speaker 1: a lot about this um. Of all the mayors, have 951 00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:02,439 Speaker 1: you know the most and that had was generally known. 952 00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:04,640 Speaker 1: And after I asked his chief of staff, where do 953 00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:06,719 Speaker 1: you learn all that? Because most mayors don't know these 954 00:52:06,719 --> 00:52:09,880 Speaker 1: details of visual stuff. And he said his father. Of course, 955 00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:12,680 Speaker 1: I said, how did that happen? He said, he took 956 00:52:12,719 --> 00:52:16,040 Speaker 1: him out in a car on the weekend. Richie, look 957 00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:19,120 Speaker 1: at that building that looks horrible, and I just told 958 00:52:19,160 --> 00:52:20,880 Speaker 1: my guy, you needed to paint that side of it 959 00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:24,759 Speaker 1: and take that that iron casing away. He said, he 960 00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:27,839 Speaker 1: really his father. Surprisingly, that the old the old Mayor 961 00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:31,200 Speaker 1: Dally Richard Daydalely, I guess it was, had a very 962 00:52:31,239 --> 00:52:34,560 Speaker 1: good eye, but was known as a ward heeler and 963 00:52:34,560 --> 00:52:37,600 Speaker 1: a tough meaty. He had another skill which was not 964 00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:41,759 Speaker 1: highly publicized outside of Chicago. Well, the sun apparently inherited 965 00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:45,200 Speaker 1: that eye, because one day he issued a dictate, which 966 00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:50,279 Speaker 1: is channeling fences down cast iron fences, replacing them. And 967 00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:53,239 Speaker 1: you good luck finding a chain link fence on any 968 00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:56,359 Speaker 1: of the major parks in Chicago. They're all now. If 969 00:52:56,360 --> 00:52:59,320 Speaker 1: you go to parts in Manhattan, you'll see these gorgeous 970 00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:02,040 Speaker 1: Gramercy Park and some which has always been a private park. 971 00:53:02,320 --> 00:53:05,520 Speaker 1: But some of these other parks have these beautiful cast 972 00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:10,400 Speaker 1: iron fences. But it was, you know, dealers, somebody's choice. 973 00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:14,239 Speaker 1: They basically issued an addict and ninety days later there 974 00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:17,640 Speaker 1: were no more channeling fences in the park. I know 975 00:53:17,719 --> 00:53:19,840 Speaker 1: I only have you for another ten or fifteen minutes, 976 00:53:19,880 --> 00:53:24,400 Speaker 1: So let me jump right to my favorite questions where 977 00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:27,880 Speaker 1: I asked these of all my guests before we do that. 978 00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:32,120 Speaker 1: Are there any specific questions I missed that anything you 979 00:53:32,120 --> 00:53:34,880 Speaker 1: want to bring up um that I may have not 980 00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:41,920 Speaker 1: gotten to. Uh, I don't think so. Which questions do 981 00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:45,239 Speaker 1: you think of asking? Asking the last the last eight? 982 00:53:46,600 --> 00:53:48,440 Speaker 1: So we did some of these so we know what 983 00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:52,120 Speaker 1: you did before you started working in this space. Let 984 00:53:52,239 --> 00:53:54,200 Speaker 1: let me ask you who who were some of your 985 00:53:54,239 --> 00:53:57,520 Speaker 1: early mentors. Uh. There was a guy who's not well 986 00:53:57,520 --> 00:54:00,560 Speaker 1: known in the business community, William H. White Jr. Who 987 00:54:00,719 --> 00:54:03,280 Speaker 1: came up with a lot of the theories about movable 988 00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:07,120 Speaker 1: chairs and the like that we've implemented in Brian Park. 989 00:54:07,600 --> 00:54:09,759 Speaker 1: Brilliant guy. He was a journalist. He's known more for 990 00:54:09,800 --> 00:54:13,319 Speaker 1: the books he wrote, including The Organization Man, and he 991 00:54:13,360 --> 00:54:15,680 Speaker 1: was closely linked. Unbeknownsted we can say it now that 992 00:54:15,719 --> 00:54:18,960 Speaker 1: he passed away about fifteen years ago. The Rockefellers supported 993 00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:21,399 Speaker 1: his work. They thought it was so important, gave him 994 00:54:21,400 --> 00:54:26,719 Speaker 1: an office and a secretary and consulting deals. Um. There 995 00:54:26,719 --> 00:54:28,400 Speaker 1: was one point he took me down to Princeton and 996 00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:31,120 Speaker 1: he said, little little known to the public, the Rockefellers 997 00:54:31,160 --> 00:54:33,759 Speaker 1: don't give money to the school unless I say that 998 00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:35,879 Speaker 1: the physical improvement is a good one. So I want 999 00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:39,440 Speaker 1: to really show you something outside of East Pine Hall. 1000 00:54:40,080 --> 00:54:44,640 Speaker 1: And he was. He was a tremendously important factor. And 1001 00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:48,880 Speaker 1: what we didn't Briant Park and then uh, the people 1002 00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:51,319 Speaker 1: who helped me get started with these entities other than 1003 00:54:51,360 --> 00:54:54,160 Speaker 1: the Rockefellers, Andrew High School, who was the chairman of 1004 00:54:54,200 --> 00:54:57,040 Speaker 1: time ach and agreed to be our chairman for many years. 1005 00:54:57,040 --> 00:55:02,560 Speaker 1: Michael Fuchs who succeeded him. Yep, Michael's a brilliant businessman 1006 00:55:02,719 --> 00:55:05,040 Speaker 1: and has been our chairman at Brian Park of the 1007 00:55:05,440 --> 00:55:08,840 Speaker 1: kind of celebrity entity for about twenty years. Um, and 1008 00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:11,160 Speaker 1: learned a lot from him. So and if I go 1009 00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:13,279 Speaker 1: to Brian Park and I first time I ever sold 1010 00:55:13,320 --> 00:55:15,920 Speaker 1: Louis c K had to be ten years ago in 1011 00:55:15,960 --> 00:55:18,160 Speaker 1: the middle of the day at Brian Park. The comedy 1012 00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:24,080 Speaker 1: series and slaughtered the part. People were falling literally rolling 1013 00:55:24,080 --> 00:55:27,400 Speaker 1: around the grass. That was a great comedy series. The 1014 00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:29,640 Speaker 1: language was a problem. We couldn't get the comedians to 1015 00:55:29,719 --> 00:55:32,200 Speaker 1: work clean so eventually, but it was hilarious, but I 1016 00:55:32,239 --> 00:55:34,200 Speaker 1: thought of bringing it back. It was it was so. 1017 00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:38,880 Speaker 1: I saw him there, I saw Louis Black there, showed 1018 00:55:38,960 --> 00:55:42,240 Speaker 1: up and I'm sure you could randomly get just about 1019 00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:45,399 Speaker 1: anybody else you wanted. Suman was there the first time 1020 00:55:45,400 --> 00:55:49,920 Speaker 1: I ever saw her. She was very profane, very profane. 1021 00:55:50,160 --> 00:55:55,759 Speaker 1: Check out her interview with David Steinberg on Showtime. It's hilarious. 1022 00:55:55,800 --> 00:56:00,040 Speaker 1: Peter Malkin is an investor. He's eighty two now, in 1023 00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:03,719 Speaker 1: fact today he's eighty two. He um uh was the 1024 00:56:03,800 --> 00:56:07,680 Speaker 1: chairman of my b I D s at Grand Central 1025 00:56:07,760 --> 00:56:11,080 Speaker 1: and thirty four Street and was very uh instrumental in 1026 00:56:11,120 --> 00:56:14,040 Speaker 1: this stuff getting going. And another mentor is my wife, 1027 00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:16,920 Speaker 1: who's a brilliant she's a litigator with a practice and 1028 00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:20,760 Speaker 1: fine art law. It's a fascinating practice. She formed the field, 1029 00:56:21,120 --> 00:56:24,200 Speaker 1: but she's a very good advisor on a lot of things. 1030 00:56:24,239 --> 00:56:28,440 Speaker 1: She's she should be involved in that Picasso has a 1031 00:56:28,480 --> 00:56:32,120 Speaker 1: lot of arts law clients who were have stuck with 1032 00:56:32,120 --> 00:56:34,920 Speaker 1: her over the years. But she's a brilliant advisor on 1033 00:56:35,520 --> 00:56:39,040 Speaker 1: a lot of this stuff and negotiation and more than 1034 00:56:39,080 --> 00:56:41,239 Speaker 1: just a litigator or a fine arts lawyer, she's been 1035 00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:44,120 Speaker 1: very important. You mentioned White and the idea of the 1036 00:56:44,160 --> 00:56:46,960 Speaker 1: movable chairs. I have to ask how many of those 1037 00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:50,840 Speaker 1: chairs are stolen each year? Virtually zero? They really, you know, 1038 00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:54,200 Speaker 1: they deteriorate. They certainly they look like they're good enough 1039 00:56:54,239 --> 00:56:56,600 Speaker 1: to sit on, but not good enough to take. Well, 1040 00:56:56,640 --> 00:56:59,480 Speaker 1: that's thankfully that we knew it would go fine because 1041 00:56:59,560 --> 00:57:03,080 Speaker 1: when the first parks we've seen with chairs, these were 1042 00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:06,720 Speaker 1: actually for rent. They weren't for free. You were Green 1043 00:57:06,840 --> 00:57:11,520 Speaker 1: Park and St James Park in London. The Queen's entity, 1044 00:57:11,560 --> 00:57:14,560 Speaker 1: which is called Royal Park Enterprises put them out and 1045 00:57:14,600 --> 00:57:18,160 Speaker 1: we said, um, that's interesting. They're not going anywhere. I 1046 00:57:18,200 --> 00:57:21,840 Speaker 1: once asked somebody, why don't they disappear? Question? Everybody asked 1047 00:57:21,840 --> 00:57:24,640 Speaker 1: me about my parks and they said, well, they belonged 1048 00:57:24,680 --> 00:57:29,600 Speaker 1: to the queen. Who would take something queen's property? So 1049 00:57:29,600 --> 00:57:31,760 Speaker 1: so that yeah, that's more than just stealing a chair. 1050 00:57:31,880 --> 00:57:35,160 Speaker 1: That's a serious yeah. But also Brian parks so busy, 1051 00:57:35,200 --> 00:57:37,200 Speaker 1: it's hard to even to have a petty crime. We 1052 00:57:37,200 --> 00:57:40,000 Speaker 1: we took crime from five d felonies a year to 1053 00:57:40,080 --> 00:57:43,240 Speaker 1: zero there and it's it stays in the zero to 1054 00:57:43,320 --> 00:57:48,400 Speaker 1: one range. Every year there's something an assault. We had 1055 00:57:48,440 --> 00:57:51,600 Speaker 1: one weird incident with a guy took a machette out 1056 00:57:51,640 --> 00:57:53,800 Speaker 1: and hacked away at a woman, which is really upsetting 1057 00:57:54,480 --> 00:57:58,400 Speaker 1: because there are that was recent that there's some people 1058 00:57:58,440 --> 00:58:00,840 Speaker 1: in the streets. There's nothing you could do. There seems 1059 00:58:00,840 --> 00:58:04,360 Speaker 1: to be more than everyon more. Yeah, um, so let 1060 00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:08,640 Speaker 1: me keep plowing through this. So um, we haven't really 1061 00:58:08,640 --> 00:58:11,560 Speaker 1: talked about books, which is always a favorite topic. What 1062 00:58:11,560 --> 00:58:15,800 Speaker 1: what books influenced you? Um? Or what other books have 1063 00:58:15,880 --> 00:58:20,640 Speaker 1: you just found to be interesting and worth mentioning. I 1064 00:58:20,680 --> 00:58:23,360 Speaker 1: stopped reading books when we had kids, and then I 1065 00:58:23,360 --> 00:58:27,520 Speaker 1: said I gotta start again. So um, I'm I'm back 1066 00:58:27,560 --> 00:58:33,400 Speaker 1: reading again. Forty fifty books a year and they fiction. Uh, 1067 00:58:33,480 --> 00:58:36,400 Speaker 1: they haven't been influential. I just read them for escape. 1068 00:58:36,440 --> 00:58:40,080 Speaker 1: I like Trollope and Hardy and Fitzgerald. Um, and then 1069 00:58:40,120 --> 00:58:42,840 Speaker 1: management books. I've always spent half of my reading time 1070 00:58:42,840 --> 00:58:45,160 Speaker 1: reading management books trying to learn stuff in business. So 1071 00:58:45,600 --> 00:58:50,439 Speaker 1: Collins was interesting yeah, very good. I've read two of those. 1072 00:58:50,480 --> 00:58:53,680 Speaker 1: And UM Mark McCormick's books, which nobody mentions anymore, are 1073 00:58:53,760 --> 00:58:59,920 Speaker 1: really good. Whatever things. What they didn't teach you what 1074 00:59:00,040 --> 00:59:02,360 Speaker 1: Harvard Business School, it's kind of good horse sense about 1075 00:59:02,440 --> 00:59:07,160 Speaker 1: business management, UM and then UM Alan Weiss is a 1076 00:59:07,200 --> 00:59:12,160 Speaker 1: great one on pricing your consulting services, which Mackenzie X 1077 00:59:12,280 --> 00:59:16,600 Speaker 1: Mackenzie friend of mine recommended. What is Alan Weiss's book? 1078 00:59:16,600 --> 00:59:22,600 Speaker 1: What's her name of pricing? I'm forgetting the name value. 1079 00:59:23,360 --> 00:59:28,280 Speaker 1: I'll included on the page when we talked about And then, 1080 00:59:28,400 --> 00:59:32,400 Speaker 1: like most privatization guys, I've read UH and and RAN 1081 00:59:32,720 --> 00:59:38,440 Speaker 1: and it's it's a trial to read. But last week 1082 00:59:38,480 --> 00:59:41,520 Speaker 1: I had Michael Kovellan, who in his list of books 1083 00:59:41,560 --> 00:59:43,640 Speaker 1: mentioned Zone Ran and he says to me, He goes, 1084 00:59:43,680 --> 00:59:46,120 Speaker 1: I know you can't stand her, And I said, it's 1085 00:59:46,120 --> 00:59:47,960 Speaker 1: not that I can't stand her, it's that I was 1086 00:59:48,000 --> 00:59:51,640 Speaker 1: assigned at Las Shrugged in college and it was eight 1087 00:59:51,680 --> 00:59:54,240 Speaker 1: of the most miserable weeks of my life. The speech, 1088 00:59:54,520 --> 00:59:58,720 Speaker 1: it's a hundred and sixty pages one speech is it's 1089 00:59:59,200 --> 01:00:02,760 Speaker 1: it's brutal. I kind of semi minored in English and 1090 01:00:02,800 --> 01:00:05,560 Speaker 1: college and they emphasized when we did the Waste Land. 1091 01:00:05,840 --> 01:00:07,920 Speaker 1: There's no way this poem is regarded as one of 1092 01:00:07,920 --> 01:00:10,480 Speaker 1: the great trials of English literature without the editor, who 1093 01:00:10,520 --> 01:00:13,440 Speaker 1: I think was as a pound um. And there's no 1094 01:00:13,480 --> 01:00:17,360 Speaker 1: way Fitzgerald was any good without Max Purkis perkins Um 1095 01:00:17,480 --> 01:00:19,480 Speaker 1: and I Rand must not have had an editor who 1096 01:00:19,520 --> 01:00:22,560 Speaker 1: had a liability to say anything to her because needed 1097 01:00:22,560 --> 01:00:24,760 Speaker 1: to be edited, whereas The Fountain has a little more 1098 01:00:25,080 --> 01:00:29,360 Speaker 1: under control and under Atlas Shrugged. I never I basically 1099 01:00:30,360 --> 01:00:34,440 Speaker 1: I had a similar experience with Stephen Um what's his 1100 01:00:34,520 --> 01:00:40,040 Speaker 1: name with the stand Um. I got through the stands 1101 01:00:40,200 --> 01:00:45,120 Speaker 1: and everybody loves loves the author, and um trial, I 1102 01:00:45,240 --> 01:00:48,960 Speaker 1: just hated the four fifths of the way through. The 1103 01:00:48,960 --> 01:00:52,160 Speaker 1: whole book takes us crazy turn and it goes off 1104 01:00:52,200 --> 01:00:54,600 Speaker 1: in a different direction, and I'm like, wow, you just 1105 01:00:54,920 --> 01:00:56,840 Speaker 1: set me up for eight hundred pages and pulled the 1106 01:00:56,880 --> 01:01:00,840 Speaker 1: rug out from the other um I've read for enjoyment. 1107 01:01:00,840 --> 01:01:03,640 Speaker 1: I've read Philip Roth. I'm within unfortunately two or three 1108 01:01:03,680 --> 01:01:07,160 Speaker 1: of finishing all of his novels, and Just the Door 1109 01:01:08,240 --> 01:01:12,280 Speaker 1: was the story of my childhood. So I com He's 1110 01:01:12,280 --> 01:01:14,919 Speaker 1: got a funny story about Fortnoy's complaint that he tells 1111 01:01:14,920 --> 01:01:17,320 Speaker 1: in one of the films about him, where he told 1112 01:01:17,360 --> 01:01:20,200 Speaker 1: his mother he sat her down deliver or something else. No, 1113 01:01:20,400 --> 01:01:22,200 Speaker 1: he said, you know, this is going to be very 1114 01:01:22,280 --> 01:01:24,720 Speaker 1: upsetting to you, but there's a book that I just 1115 01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:27,840 Speaker 1: finished that is going to be a massive hit and 1116 01:01:27,880 --> 01:01:29,760 Speaker 1: it kind of makes a little bit of fun of 1117 01:01:29,760 --> 01:01:32,520 Speaker 1: our family, and I just wanted you to understand. He 1118 01:01:32,520 --> 01:01:35,880 Speaker 1: explains the whole thing, and then um, they go away. 1119 01:01:36,000 --> 01:01:38,880 Speaker 1: So after his mother died, he asked his father years later, 1120 01:01:39,440 --> 01:01:42,440 Speaker 1: what what was mom's reaction after I told her that 1121 01:01:42,480 --> 01:01:43,800 Speaker 1: I was going to have this huge hit and be 1122 01:01:43,840 --> 01:01:47,440 Speaker 1: a celebrity, she said, he said, she started crying, and 1123 01:01:47,480 --> 01:01:48,960 Speaker 1: he said, I knew it. I knew what. I knew 1124 01:01:48,960 --> 01:01:50,840 Speaker 1: she'd be upset, he said, not about what you think. 1125 01:01:51,120 --> 01:01:53,600 Speaker 1: She started crying because she thought you were having delusions 1126 01:01:53,600 --> 01:01:57,120 Speaker 1: of grand My son is crazy. He thinks he's gonna 1127 01:01:57,120 --> 01:02:01,640 Speaker 1: be a famous lot. But no, calm, it's about the actual. Uh, 1128 01:02:02,440 --> 01:02:05,120 Speaker 1: that's not what she was concerned about. And that American 1129 01:02:05,160 --> 01:02:08,280 Speaker 1: Pastorals my favorite, my favorite, and a lot of people's 1130 01:02:08,480 --> 01:02:11,760 Speaker 1: never read it. Oh, it's it's fibulous if you're interested 1131 01:02:11,760 --> 01:02:14,280 Speaker 1: in new work. Six or eight of them really have 1132 01:02:14,440 --> 01:02:16,600 Speaker 1: fabulous new work stuff. In fact, he had an exhibit 1133 01:02:16,600 --> 01:02:19,920 Speaker 1: in New York UM the library where he first worked 1134 01:02:19,960 --> 01:02:23,120 Speaker 1: as a young boy. He um had an exhibit there 1135 01:02:23,120 --> 01:02:26,200 Speaker 1: about his family and childhood. So I know, I gotta 1136 01:02:26,240 --> 01:02:28,040 Speaker 1: get get you out of here in the next minute 1137 01:02:28,080 --> 01:02:30,520 Speaker 1: or two. Let me jump to my last two questions. 1138 01:02:30,880 --> 01:02:34,480 Speaker 1: So a millennial or a new college graduate coming out 1139 01:02:34,480 --> 01:02:38,560 Speaker 1: of school who are interested in pursuing your career path, 1140 01:02:38,640 --> 01:02:40,280 Speaker 1: what sort of advice would you give to that? I 1141 01:02:40,280 --> 01:02:43,400 Speaker 1: always tell him the first job isn't that important. What 1142 01:02:43,440 --> 01:02:45,320 Speaker 1: it is as long as your boss is a smart 1143 01:02:45,360 --> 01:02:47,400 Speaker 1: person and cuts you in on some of the actions. 1144 01:02:47,400 --> 01:02:50,080 Speaker 1: So I had an internship or two where I was 1145 01:02:50,080 --> 01:02:52,120 Speaker 1: put in the back room, and then I had an 1146 01:02:52,120 --> 01:02:54,840 Speaker 1: internship or two where I was included in the work 1147 01:02:54,840 --> 01:02:57,040 Speaker 1: of the office. So that's what we do with our interns. 1148 01:02:57,040 --> 01:03:00,360 Speaker 1: So get a job that's interesting to you on your 1149 01:03:00,400 --> 01:03:02,480 Speaker 1: career path. But it doesn't matter so much who you're 1150 01:03:02,520 --> 01:03:05,280 Speaker 1: working for as to the company. It does matter who 1151 01:03:05,360 --> 01:03:08,120 Speaker 1: your bosses. Look for a really smart boss who can 1152 01:03:08,160 --> 01:03:11,320 Speaker 1: teach you certain things. And then at that point, I 1153 01:03:11,720 --> 01:03:17,280 Speaker 1: often say to people, time to be an entrepreneur, and um, 1154 01:03:18,120 --> 01:03:20,200 Speaker 1: get out there. You are my son and daughter for 1155 01:03:20,240 --> 01:03:23,240 Speaker 1: assuming that route. And my wife's quite an entrepreneur to 1156 01:03:23,400 --> 01:03:26,680 Speaker 1: in our own field of our laws. So um, it's 1157 01:03:26,720 --> 01:03:28,840 Speaker 1: easy to fail when you're young and you get up, 1158 01:03:28,920 --> 01:03:31,680 Speaker 1: dust yourself off and start over. Tougher to do that 1159 01:03:31,720 --> 01:03:35,320 Speaker 1: when you're a little older. And our our last question, 1160 01:03:35,520 --> 01:03:38,800 Speaker 1: what is it that you know about the development and 1161 01:03:38,880 --> 01:03:42,280 Speaker 1: management of public space today that you wish you knew 1162 01:03:42,480 --> 01:03:45,440 Speaker 1: back in the late nineteen eighties when you were starting 1163 01:03:47,880 --> 01:03:50,680 Speaker 1: two or three things? The programming didn't occur to us 1164 01:03:50,760 --> 01:03:56,840 Speaker 1: until we opened Briant Park. Um, and the insights I've 1165 01:03:56,840 --> 01:04:01,360 Speaker 1: had about managing the profit and laws statement for a 1166 01:04:02,320 --> 01:04:05,280 Speaker 1: cause that public entity only occurred to me over time. 1167 01:04:05,360 --> 01:04:07,720 Speaker 1: So I probably had some dead ends and wasted a 1168 01:04:07,760 --> 01:04:13,680 Speaker 1: little money early. Um, but UM, no one particular insight, 1169 01:04:13,760 --> 01:04:17,680 Speaker 1: it just um it took a lot of uh reading 1170 01:04:17,960 --> 01:04:21,040 Speaker 1: and travel. One thing I would certainly say is you 1171 01:04:21,120 --> 01:04:23,080 Speaker 1: need to travel a ton. If you do your same 1172 01:04:23,480 --> 01:04:25,200 Speaker 1: path to work every day, you're not going to have 1173 01:04:25,360 --> 01:04:27,080 Speaker 1: insights occurred to you. You need to get out and 1174 01:04:27,080 --> 01:04:29,360 Speaker 1: see what other people are doing. I kind of knew 1175 01:04:29,400 --> 01:04:31,280 Speaker 1: that from the beginning a little bit, but it's become 1176 01:04:31,320 --> 01:04:34,680 Speaker 1: more instrumental as time has gone on, Dan, thank you 1177 01:04:34,720 --> 01:04:37,360 Speaker 1: so much for being so generous with your time. This is, 1178 01:04:37,440 --> 01:04:40,640 Speaker 1: this has been fantastic. Before I go, I would be 1179 01:04:40,680 --> 01:04:43,720 Speaker 1: remiss if I didn't think my head of research Michael Batnick, 1180 01:04:44,200 --> 01:04:49,680 Speaker 1: and my producer slash engineer today Charlie Vollmer. Uh, you've 1181 01:04:49,720 --> 01:04:54,400 Speaker 1: been listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio. I'm 1182 01:04:54,400 --> 01:04:57,760 Speaker 1: gonna do that again. I'm Barry Rihults. You've been listening 1183 01:04:57,800 --> 01:05:00,360 Speaker 1: to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio.