1 00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:07,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to tex Stuff, a production of I Heart Radios, 2 00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: How Stuff Works. Hey there, and welcome to tech Stuff. 3 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:17,239 Speaker 1: I'm your host, Jonathan Strickland. I'm an executive producer with 4 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:19,919 Speaker 1: How Stuff Works and I heart radio and I love 5 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 1: all things tech. Kind of boy. I keep on having 6 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:30,160 Speaker 1: to justify that. But as I record this episode, Facebook 7 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:34,519 Speaker 1: continues to be under intense scrutiny. As a quick overview 8 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:38,160 Speaker 1: of why that is, we look at scandals ranging from 9 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 1: data breaches, interference from various parties to affect stuff like 10 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:47,200 Speaker 1: political elections using Facebook as a platform, and the company's 11 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:51,599 Speaker 1: own history of questionable policies, including one that allowed Facebook 12 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:54,760 Speaker 1: employees to essentially look at anything they wanted to among 13 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: users because there were thousands of passwords saved in plaint text, 14 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:03,400 Speaker 1: which is not good. But there are also talks about 15 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:06,679 Speaker 1: the company perhaps being too powerful in general as it 16 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 1: consolidates massive individual services like WhatsApp, Instagram, and Facebook itself 17 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:17,840 Speaker 1: into a more unified, dominant platform. That's brought about conversations 18 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 1: toying with the idea of breaking Facebook up into smaller companies, 19 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:25,959 Speaker 1: conversations that have been happening for a while now. Today 20 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 1: I want to talk about that particular tactic, how Facebook 21 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 1: got there and what might happen next? And since I 22 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:36,200 Speaker 1: record these shows in advance of their publication, by the 23 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 1: time you hear this, more may have developed in that story. 24 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 1: So let's start off with the concept of monopolies and 25 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 1: the government's power to break them up. The definition of 26 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 1: a monopoly is a situation where one producer or group 27 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 1: of producers acting together controls the market supply of a 28 00:01:56,440 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 1: good or service. So, for example, if you were the 29 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 1: only person in the world who could provide internet broadband 30 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 1: service to customers, you would be in control of a monopoly. 31 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:11,840 Speaker 1: And in a monopoly, there is no competition in the 32 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:14,840 Speaker 1: market for that good or service, and that means you 33 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 1: could set all the rules. You could set the price 34 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 1: and demand people meet that price. There'll be no other 35 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 1: market pressures for you to do Otherwise. You could also 36 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:27,919 Speaker 1: restrict the output on purpose to increase the demand. You 37 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 1: would have very little reason to worry about your customers 38 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 1: at all, because your customers would literally have no one 39 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 1: else to turn to if they were dissatisfied. They either 40 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:40,359 Speaker 1: deal with you or they go without. And as I mentioned, 41 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:43,919 Speaker 1: a monopoly can actually consist of more than one entity. 42 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:47,799 Speaker 1: If the collected entities are all working together, you could 43 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:50,839 Speaker 1: have what amounts to a cabal of companies that are 44 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:53,760 Speaker 1: all agreeing on things like how much they will charge 45 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:57,079 Speaker 1: for their products or services, where they will operate within 46 00:02:57,120 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: a region, and how much are their supply they will 47 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 1: put on the market. That would allow the group to 48 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 1: continue to dictate price and supply. You can also have 49 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:10,679 Speaker 1: similar situations in which only a couple of companies dominate 50 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:13,800 Speaker 1: the market, but aren't working directly with one another to 51 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 1: control everything all the time. They may actually compete against 52 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:22,519 Speaker 1: each other in limited fashion, but again, this is a 53 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:26,960 Speaker 1: limited competition as there are only two companies dominating the industry. 54 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:30,840 Speaker 1: This is what we call a duopoly for consumers. A 55 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 1: duopoly could be slightly better than a monopoly, but it's 56 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 1: rarely much better. From there, you can go to an oligopoly. Technically, 57 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 1: a duopoly is the smallest type of oligopoly. This is 58 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 1: any situation which a small number of large entities dominate 59 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 1: a particular market. In the United States, you could argue 60 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 1: that internet service providers have or at least at certain times, 61 00:03:56,120 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 1: have behaved as an oligopoly. Ideally, for consumers, every given 62 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 1: market will have many companies in it, all competing for business. 63 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 1: This helps ensure that an individual consumer can seek out 64 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 1: a solution that best meets their needs and means. As 65 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 1: a consumer, you can look at all the offerings available 66 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 1: in your area and way different factors such as the 67 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:24,880 Speaker 1: quality of the goods and services, the cost you'll have 68 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 1: to meet, how easy it is to get hold of them, 69 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 1: the various reputations of the different competing companies, and so on. 70 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 1: But with a douopoly, your options are limited to two. 71 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 1: With a monopoly, you have no options at all. Generally speaking, 72 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 1: governments tend to protect the public against monopolies. However, there 73 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 1: are times when a government might actually create a monopoly 74 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 1: for the purposes of scaling the business up to meet 75 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 1: population demands, such as with utilities. Power utilities in the 76 00:04:56,720 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 1: United States are dominated by near monopolies certain markets. The 77 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:04,719 Speaker 1: reason for that is largely because it is an incredibly 78 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:08,480 Speaker 1: expensive and difficult thing to build out and maintain a 79 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:13,359 Speaker 1: power utility, and supplying electricity is an incredibly important task. 80 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 1: These companies typically face state level regulations to make sure 81 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 1: they aren't gouging customers with unreasonable price hikes, or they 82 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 1: might do so for the purposes of national security, such 83 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 1: as when the United States Navy attempted to create a 84 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:34,159 Speaker 1: monopoly in radio broadcasting during World War One. The Navy 85 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:36,720 Speaker 1: was told that they weren't supposed to do that. By 86 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:40,239 Speaker 1: the way, that effort ultimately fell short, and the Navy 87 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:43,720 Speaker 1: had to hand over the assets to civilian companies. General 88 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 1: Electric would form the Radio Corporation of America for that 89 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 1: very purpose, And while our c A wasn't a total monopoly, 90 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 1: it was the dominant corporation in the early days of 91 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 1: radio broadcasting post World War One. So there have been 92 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:02,479 Speaker 1: instances in which a monopoly was seen as useful or 93 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:06,839 Speaker 1: even necessary to achieve certain ends, but in general the 94 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 1: US government is wary of them. The state of affairs 95 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:14,480 Speaker 1: began in the late eighteen hundreds as the Industrial Revolution 96 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 1: was changing commerce dramatically. You might remember from my episodes 97 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 1: on the Industrial Revolution how things like steam engines and 98 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 1: railroad systems were transforming the world. They were also transforming business. 99 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:33,679 Speaker 1: Successful endeavors would buy up smaller enterprises to increase their reach. 100 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 1: This led to a situation where fewer and fewer companies 101 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:40,919 Speaker 1: were holding more and more of the market. A U 102 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 1: S Senator named John Sherman foresaw how this could develop 103 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 1: into a real problem, and then famously compared the situation 104 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:51,039 Speaker 1: to that of a monarchy. He said that the citizens 105 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 1: of the United States had already decided that they didn't 106 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:57,600 Speaker 1: want a king to rule over them politically, and so 107 00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:00,279 Speaker 1: they should be just as resistant to a king like 108 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 1: company ruling over some necessary market. Sherman's name would attached 109 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:09,479 Speaker 1: to an important piece of legislation in eighteen ninety, the 110 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 1: Sherman Antitrust Act, which established laws that made it illegal 111 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 1: for anyone to try and form a monopoly or to 112 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 1: restrict trade in any given market. Should the U. S. 113 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 1: Government suspect any company of doing so, the Justice Department 114 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:29,239 Speaker 1: has the authority to take that company to federal court, 115 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 1: and from there the government can do many things, such 116 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 1: as create regulations that the company must abide by, or 117 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:39,200 Speaker 1: even order the company to be broken up into smaller 118 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 1: entities that presumably would compete against one another. The Sherman 119 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:48,760 Speaker 1: Antitrust Act was just the first federal legislation about how 120 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 1: to deal with monopolies and anti competitive practices. Other laws 121 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 1: such as the Clayton Act, the Federal Trade Commission Act, 122 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:58,680 Speaker 1: and a couple of others would round out the policy. 123 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 1: A trust, by the way, in this sense, is essentially 124 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 1: a business that is operating as an effective monopoly, or 125 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:08,560 Speaker 1: one that might be a true monopoly. There have been 126 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 1: some pretty famous antitrust lawsuits in the United States that 127 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 1: led to the breakup of big companies. One of those 128 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 1: was John D. Rockefeller's Standard Oil Company in the early 129 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 1: nineteen hundreds. While there were numerous oil companies in the 130 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 1: US at the time, Rockefeller used his leverage to broker 131 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 1: favorable deals that discouraged competition wherever Standard Oil was in operation. 132 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:36,679 Speaker 1: The US government swooped in and took Standard Oil to court, 133 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:40,840 Speaker 1: ultimately breaking the company up into more than thirty smaller 134 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 1: oil companies, many of which would merge with one another 135 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 1: and grow to become ginormous conglomerates. So today those include Chevron, Exxon, 136 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:55,560 Speaker 1: then Mobile, when eventually those two would merge back together 137 00:08:55,720 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 1: to become ex On, Mobile and Emico. Much more recently 138 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:03,360 Speaker 1: was the antitrust case against A T and T in 139 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies and early nineteen eighties. The details of 140 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 1: the case are complicated, and maybe I should do a 141 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 1: full episode about what happened in that case. In the future. 142 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 1: But at the heart of the matter was that the 143 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 1: US government believed A. T and T had been using 144 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 1: its powerful market position to suppress competition. The government's goal 145 00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 1: was to break A. T and T up. The company 146 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 1: had several operating companies called Regional Bell Operating Companies or 147 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 1: r B o c s that the government wanted to 148 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 1: see split off from A. T and T. The government 149 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:41,320 Speaker 1: also wanted A. T and T to divest itself of 150 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 1: its manufacturing subsidiary of Western Electric. The reason they are 151 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:50,839 Speaker 1: called Bell operating companies is that they and A T 152 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 1: and T itself traced their history back to Alexander Graham Bell, 153 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 1: inventor of the telephone. They all grew out of the 154 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 1: Bell Telephone comp Any, which evolved into the American Telephone 155 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 1: and Telegraph Company, or A T and T. This wasn't 156 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 1: the first time the government had concerns about the company. 157 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 1: Back in nineteen forty nine, the Justice Department had filed 158 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:17,560 Speaker 1: a suit against A. T and T, stating the company 159 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:20,720 Speaker 1: was violating the Sherman Anti Trust Act and that it 160 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:24,679 Speaker 1: should spin off Western Electric. That lawsuit would eventually end 161 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 1: in a consent decree signed by A. T and T. 162 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 1: Executives in nineteen fifty six. Then the company held on 163 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 1: to a Western Electric. Ultimately, A T and T settled 164 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:39,080 Speaker 1: its case out of court, agreeing to divest itself of 165 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 1: the Bell operating companies creating these seven so called baby Bells. 166 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 1: Since then, most of those companies have merged with one another, 167 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:50,840 Speaker 1: with four of them back under the corporate umbrella of A. 168 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:55,440 Speaker 1: T and T. So there you go. When we come back. 169 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 1: I have one other antitrust case I think it is 170 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 1: important to discuss before getting back to Facebook. But first 171 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 1: let's take a quick break. So in an episode about 172 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 1: antitrust cases and technology, I'd be remiss not to talk 173 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:21,320 Speaker 1: about Microsoft. This case took place in the late nineties, 174 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 1: nineties and early two thousand's, and at the heart of 175 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:27,560 Speaker 1: it was the allegation that Microsoft was using its power 176 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:32,559 Speaker 1: as the world's largest software company to pressure PC manufacturers 177 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 1: to conform to Microsoft's desires. This would be like an 178 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 1: oil company demanding that all car manufacturers must make their 179 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:43,240 Speaker 1: cars at a certain level of fuel inefficiency in order 180 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 1: to sell more fuel, but it went a bit deeper 181 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:49,439 Speaker 1: than that. The government also stated that Microsoft was pressuring 182 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 1: PC manufacturers to make it difficult to uninstall Microsoft's own 183 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 1: web browser, Internet Explorer, and make it harder to install 184 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 1: a competing browser, namely Netscape. The government stated that Microsoft 185 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:09,199 Speaker 1: had so tightly integrated the Windows operating system with the 186 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:14,000 Speaker 1: Internet Explorer browser that it was effectively muscling out any 187 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:18,320 Speaker 1: competing browser, and because at that time, Windows based PCs 188 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:22,079 Speaker 1: were dominating the home computer market and meant that consumers 189 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 1: would have very little choice. The trial went all the 190 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 1: way to a decision. That initial decision was against Microsoft, 191 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 1: with an order to break the company up into two entities, 192 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:38,200 Speaker 1: one of which would create the Windows operating system and 193 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:43,000 Speaker 1: the other would oversee other software. This decision was overturned 194 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:46,600 Speaker 1: on appeal, partly due to the sitting judge having given 195 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 1: interviews about the case while it was still ongoing. The 196 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 1: courts decided to consider the case again under an adjusted scope. 197 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 1: At that point, Microsoft proposed a settlement for the case, 198 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 1: which the government agreed to. Microsoft would be allowed to 199 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 1: operate as a single company. In return, Microsoft would abide 200 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 1: by certain regulations to ensure competitiveness in the market was 201 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:14,959 Speaker 1: still possible. All right, so let's get back to Facebook. 202 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:19,560 Speaker 1: Who thinks Facebook needs to be broken up? Now? You can? 203 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:22,439 Speaker 1: You can put down your hands. It's a rhetorical question. 204 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 1: One of those people is Chris Hughes. And who is he. 205 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:32,600 Speaker 1: He's a co founder of Facebook. Yikes. Now, to be clear, 206 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:36,120 Speaker 1: Hughes doesn't work at Facebook, and he hasn't worked there 207 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:39,160 Speaker 1: for many years. But when the founder of a company 208 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:42,679 Speaker 1: says that, yeah, maybe this company needs to be split up, 209 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 1: that's something people tend to pay attention to. Hughes laid 210 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:49,440 Speaker 1: out his thoughts in a piece published in The New 211 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:53,720 Speaker 1: York Times on May nine, two thousand nineteen. I'm recording 212 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:57,960 Speaker 1: this episode on May two thousand nineteen, so the news 213 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 1: is pretty fresh. Hughes. His assertion is that Mark Zuckerberg, 214 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:05,839 Speaker 1: whom he considers a friend, has far too much power, 215 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 1: and the way he lays it out is pretty convincing. 216 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:12,440 Speaker 1: I'll quote a paragraph from the New York Times piece. Quote, 217 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 1: Mark's influence is staggering, far beyond that of anyone else 218 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 1: in the private sector or in government. He controls three 219 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 1: core communications platforms, Facebook, Instagram, and WhatsApp that billions of 220 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 1: people use every day. Facebook's board works more like an 221 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 1: advisory committee than an overseer. Because Mark controls around sixty 222 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 1: percent of voting shares. Mark alone can decide how to 223 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 1: configure Facebook's algorithms to determine what people see in their 224 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 1: news feeds, what privacy settings they can use, and even 225 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:51,920 Speaker 1: which messages get delivered. He sets the rules for how 226 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 1: to distinguish violent and incendiary speech from the merely offensive, 227 00:14:56,520 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 1: and he can choose to shut down a competitor by acquiring, blocking, 228 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 1: or copying it. End quote. Okay, so let's take a 229 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:10,400 Speaker 1: look at how this came to pass, and then examined 230 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 1: Hughes's proposal to split up Facebook. Now, I've done episodes 231 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 1: about the history of Facebook before, so this is not 232 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:22,640 Speaker 1: going to be an exhaustive treatment. The social media site 233 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 1: got its start back in two thousand four, when the 234 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 1: co founders, including Mark Zuckerberg, began building out a basic 235 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:33,760 Speaker 1: social media platform aimed at college students at Harvard. It 236 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 1: had a particular focus on dating, but rapidly grew beyond 237 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 1: that to involve all sorts of social connections, and originally 238 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 1: only Harvard students had access to it, but it expanded 239 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 1: to other university campuses. It remained only open to college 240 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 1: students until the fall of two thousand six, when the 241 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:56,560 Speaker 1: site opened up its membership to anyone. That was the 242 00:15:56,640 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 1: same time that Facebook first introduced the news feed, which 243 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 1: we take for granted now. This is the list of 244 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 1: updates from your various friends, and it would be part 245 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 1: of what Hughes includes in his arguments for breaking up 246 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:13,800 Speaker 1: the company. More on that later. Facebook's popularity was on 247 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 1: the rise, and it was in competition with several other 248 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 1: social networks. I talked about them recently. One big one 249 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 1: was my Space, which had been purchased by Rupert Murdock's company, 250 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 1: News Corps for around half a billion dollars. That gave 251 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 1: a lot of folks over at Facebook the confidence that 252 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 1: their company was worth even more than MySpace, as Facebook's 253 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:38,040 Speaker 1: trajectory was in growth and my Space was already starting 254 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 1: to hit some hard barriers. During this time, Facebook was 255 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 1: forced to innovate to set itself apart from other social networks. 256 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 1: It needed to have the features that users would find 257 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 1: most compelling. Competition was good, as it meant that the 258 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 1: company was constantly improving. Sometimes this was in true innovation, 259 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 1: and other times it was in finding a way to 260 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:04,879 Speaker 1: replicate what someone else was already doing. Zuckerberg led his 261 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 1: company to turn down an acquisition offer from Yahoo to 262 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 1: the tune of one billion dollars. In two thousand and seven, 263 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:16,920 Speaker 1: the company would launch its mobile platform and make available 264 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 1: a platform for third party developers to create apps that 265 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:23,920 Speaker 1: could live on top of the Facebook experience. It wasn't 266 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:27,239 Speaker 1: until two thousand nine that Facebook reported that it had 267 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:32,360 Speaker 1: become cash flow positive. The company began acquiring other companies. 268 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:35,919 Speaker 1: It had previously acquired a company called connect You as 269 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,720 Speaker 1: part of a lawsuit settlement in it bought a photo 270 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:45,080 Speaker 1: sharing service called Divvy Shot. Facebook would release Facebook Messenger 271 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:49,159 Speaker 1: for Android and iOS devices in two thousand eleven, and 272 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:52,959 Speaker 1: then it made the first of its really huge acquisitions. 273 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 1: In two thousand and twelve, Facebook paid and astonishing one 274 00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 1: billion dollars to acquire a rival social networking service, Instagram. 275 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:07,160 Speaker 1: In case you're not familiar with Instagram, it's a mobile 276 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:11,399 Speaker 1: photo sharing app. It's kind of like Facebook without all 277 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 1: the words. It is focused almost exclusively on sharing photos 278 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:20,359 Speaker 1: and short videos among users. It's a popular platform and 279 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 1: there are many quote unquote influencers who make their living 280 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:27,800 Speaker 1: off of Instagram in various ways, such as hosting sponsored 281 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 1: posts on your Instagram account. It's easier set than done, though, 282 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:36,200 Speaker 1: because it requires you get a nice, big following of 283 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 1: folks who are engaged with your content first, and those 284 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 1: two factors, the number of followers and their engagement with 285 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:46,920 Speaker 1: your posts, are what really matter. That's why some Instagram 286 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:51,480 Speaker 1: influencers urged their users to comment on posts or even 287 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:54,520 Speaker 1: try to spell out a long word in an unbroken 288 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:57,960 Speaker 1: string of comments, each with a single letter in them. 289 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:03,359 Speaker 1: Some like me argue that this isn't really meaningful engagement, 290 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 1: but it is a great way to inflate the number 291 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:11,640 Speaker 1: of comments of post gets anyway. Influencer tactics aside, Instagram 292 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:14,880 Speaker 1: was killing it in an area where Facebook was still 293 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:18,920 Speaker 1: having issues, namely in the mobile world, and that presented 294 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 1: a huge challenge to Facebook. Ever, since consumer smartphones had 295 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 1: established a real market in the wake of the iPhones release, 296 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:30,680 Speaker 1: more people were using mobile devices like phones and tablets 297 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:34,960 Speaker 1: to access the web. Computer usage didn't exactly tank, but 298 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:37,240 Speaker 1: it was clear that the mobile platform was going to 299 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 1: play an increasingly significant role in how people interact with 300 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:45,359 Speaker 1: content on the Internet, and Facebook's mobile platform had not 301 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:49,880 Speaker 1: been performing as well as the company wanted. Instagram had 302 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 1: really nailed down an experience that resonated with mobile users, 303 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:57,240 Speaker 1: so rather than try to build a tool to go 304 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:00,760 Speaker 1: head to head with Instagram or even copy what they 305 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 1: did outright, Facebook acquired its rival. It was a smart 306 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:09,240 Speaker 1: move on the part of Facebook. Instagram wasn't exactly on 307 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:13,200 Speaker 1: the same level. In October of two thousand twelve, Zuckerberg 308 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 1: announced that Facebook had hit the milestone of one billion users. 309 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:24,240 Speaker 1: Instagram only boasted twenty seven million. But the Instagram users 310 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:28,720 Speaker 1: were on Instagram more than mobile Facebook users were on Facebook, 311 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:31,960 Speaker 1: and the writing was on the wall. Facebook began to 312 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:36,359 Speaker 1: integrate many of Instagram's features into its own services, while 313 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 1: also pushing to have more Facebook features incorporated into Instagram. 314 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:45,200 Speaker 1: This led to an environment that ultimately convinced Instagram's founders 315 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:48,320 Speaker 1: to jump ship, frustrated that their work was being shaped 316 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 1: by someone else. So that purchase was a big one, 317 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 1: but it would be dwarfed by the acquisition of WhatsApp 318 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:59,920 Speaker 1: in two thousand and fourteen. For that service, Facebook would 319 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 1: fork over an astounding nineteen billion dollars and WhatsApp is 320 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:09,240 Speaker 1: one of those services that a lot of folks in 321 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:12,359 Speaker 1: the United States are unfamiliar with, as it didn't have 322 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 1: a lot of penetration over here, so that made the 323 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:18,919 Speaker 1: whole thing even more of a head scratcher. I remember 324 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 1: when it happened, a lot of folks were saying they 325 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:25,200 Speaker 1: spent nearly twenty billion dollars to buy who Now For 326 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:28,920 Speaker 1: those who aren't familiar, and I include myself in that category, 327 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:33,360 Speaker 1: as I've never used the service WhatsApp as a messaging service. 328 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:37,159 Speaker 1: It's tied to mobile phones, though you can use it 329 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 1: on a PC if the associated phone is also connected 330 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 1: to the Internet. It was created by a couple of 331 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:46,920 Speaker 1: former Yahoo employees, and yeah, I find it kind of 332 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 1: funny that a couple of folks who worked for a 333 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:52,440 Speaker 1: company that tried to buy Facebook would ultimately find their 334 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:56,880 Speaker 1: startup bought by Facebook later on. Because it works over 335 00:21:56,920 --> 00:22:00,159 Speaker 1: the Internet, it doesn't follow the same protocols as a 336 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:03,119 Speaker 1: text message, and so for people who have a limit 337 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,359 Speaker 1: on how many texts they can send per month before 338 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:10,639 Speaker 1: being charged extra, it's a valuable service. Rather than sending 339 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:14,959 Speaker 1: SMS messages, you use the Internet and sidestep those restrictions. 340 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 1: In the earliest pitch for the service, users would post 341 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:21,200 Speaker 1: a status that would populate out to everyone in that 342 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:24,840 Speaker 1: users social network, essentially the friends who were also using 343 00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 1: that service. This made it sort of like Twitter in 344 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:30,920 Speaker 1: a way, except it wasn't doing it through SMS. This 345 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 1: quickly evolved into more of an instant messengers service. He 346 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 1: used phone numbers as the log in so there was 347 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 1: no need for user names or passwords. If you were 348 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:42,399 Speaker 1: logging in on the phone, you were good to go. 349 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:45,919 Speaker 1: You didn't even have to give WhatsApp other information about yourself, 350 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:50,119 Speaker 1: like your gender, age, or address. It became a paid 351 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:54,000 Speaker 1: for service in which users would fork over the princely 352 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 1: sum of a shiny dollar per year for a subscription, 353 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:01,959 Speaker 1: and the first year was free. This helped cover verification 354 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 1: costs the company was incurring while establishing accounts. The user 355 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 1: base grew, and by it was around two hundred million users, 356 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:14,440 Speaker 1: and then two thousand fourteen happened. More on that in 357 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:18,280 Speaker 1: just a second, but first let's take another quick break. 358 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:30,119 Speaker 1: So Facebook comes in and slams down this guard gantuan 359 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 1: deal for WhatsApp nineteen point three billion dollars for an 360 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,880 Speaker 1: app that in two thousand fifteen would become the most 361 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:44,160 Speaker 1: popular messaging app in the world with six hundred million users. 362 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 1: So why was Facebook so gung ho on getting WhatsApp? 363 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:53,520 Speaker 1: According to analysts, WhatsApp had only earned twenty million dollars 364 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,320 Speaker 1: in two thousand thirteen, So how the heck did we 365 00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 1: get to nineteen billion for the offer? Well, for one thing, 366 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 1: while the company wasn't raking in mountains of cash compared 367 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:09,000 Speaker 1: to a goliath like Facebook, it was the fastest growing 368 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 1: company in terms of users in all of history. That's 369 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 1: enough right there to make Zuckerberg take notice, as the 370 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 1: numbers of users of his service helped define his company's value. 371 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:25,399 Speaker 1: Another factor is that whenever people were using WhatsApp, they 372 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:29,960 Speaker 1: weren't using Facebook. There's a limitation of time at play here, 373 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 1: and Facebook wants as much of a user's time as 374 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 1: they can get. The more time a user spends on 375 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:41,680 Speaker 1: Facebook services, the more information Facebook can gather to serve 376 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:44,760 Speaker 1: up targeted ads, and the more money Facebook can get 377 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:48,359 Speaker 1: from advertisers. As I've said many times, and I'm not 378 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:52,719 Speaker 1: the first person to say this, it's Facebook's users who 379 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:56,800 Speaker 1: are the actual product of the company. Or rather, it's 380 00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:01,280 Speaker 1: our time and our information and our attention. Facebook can 381 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:05,440 Speaker 1: say to an advertiser, Hey, because of these acquisitions, the 382 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:08,680 Speaker 1: average user is spending something like two hours out of 383 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:12,520 Speaker 1: every day on one of our services. Don't you want 384 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:15,440 Speaker 1: your ads to play on that kind of platform. WhatsApp 385 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 1: was outpacing Facebook messenger engagement time, and so like Instagram, 386 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 1: Facebook needed to figure out how to meet this challenge, 387 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:26,720 Speaker 1: and the answer was to buy the threat and make 388 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:29,720 Speaker 1: it part of the company. And just like with Instagram, 389 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:33,119 Speaker 1: Facebook would make changes to WhatsApp and place demands on 390 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 1: the service that would lead to its founders leaving the company. 391 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:40,160 Speaker 1: To bring this back to Facebook co founder Chris Hughes, 392 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:44,280 Speaker 1: he asserts that it was a mistake for the Federal 393 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:50,119 Speaker 1: Trade Commission or FTC to approve both acquisitions. Perhaps at 394 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 1: the time it was understandable as Instagram was still relatively 395 00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:58,120 Speaker 1: small and WhatsApps revenues were relatively modest compared to Facebook. 396 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,440 Speaker 1: But by becoming part of the large your company, Facebook 397 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:04,359 Speaker 1: was able to reduce the number of competitors vying for 398 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 1: users time and attention. Now Facebook controls three powerful platforms 399 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:14,480 Speaker 1: that are slowly merging together into a more integrated experience. This, 400 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:20,760 Speaker 1: says Hughes, gives Suckerberg unprecedented control over communication channels. Facebook 401 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:24,640 Speaker 1: is in such a dominant position that faces no competitive 402 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 1: market pressures to change course, meaning the only thing dictating 403 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 1: Facebook's actions is Facebook itself. Further, when I say Facebook, 404 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:38,879 Speaker 1: I really mean Zuckerberg. Remember, Hugh said, Zuckerberg controls about 405 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 1: sixty percent of voting shares in the company, so he 406 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 1: has majority vote in all matters. He can't even be 407 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:47,879 Speaker 1: voted off the board of directors. Because he controls the 408 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:51,920 Speaker 1: majority vote, he can ultimately decide what the news feed 409 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 1: algorithm favors or dismisses. He decides what you see on Facebook, 410 00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:01,640 Speaker 1: not you. And as Hugh's points out, the company has 411 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 1: intervened in a few cases to delete messages sent between users. 412 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:11,200 Speaker 1: The instance, Hughes sites happened in two thousand seventeen in Myanmar, 413 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:15,160 Speaker 1: in which there were cases of Facebook users living there 414 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:19,359 Speaker 1: who are advocating for the extermination of the Rohingya people 415 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:23,119 Speaker 1: calling for Gina side. Zuckerberg made the decision to have 416 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:27,640 Speaker 1: all those messages deleted after they were detected, and it's 417 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:31,720 Speaker 1: hard to argue against that. The consequences of allowing those 418 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:34,680 Speaker 1: messages to go through could have led to the death 419 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:40,959 Speaker 1: of countless people. But it's also setting up precedent. Zuckerberg 420 00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:44,720 Speaker 1: actually has the power to determine which messages are allowable. 421 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 1: There's no government oversight on his capabilities, and so he 422 00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:51,320 Speaker 1: could do this all on his own, and there may 423 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 1: be a case where the ethical decision isn't so clearly distinguished. 424 00:27:56,040 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 1: Hugh says that Facebook, Instagram, and WhatsApp should be split 425 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:05,199 Speaker 1: into three companies again, and each have regulations that restrict 426 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:10,240 Speaker 1: their abilities to make any acquisitions for several years. Stockholders 427 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:13,359 Speaker 1: would retain shares in each of the companies, though the 428 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,679 Speaker 1: heads of each company would likely be required to divest 429 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:20,439 Speaker 1: their management shares in the other two, and Hugh's argues 430 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:22,960 Speaker 1: that this would allow for more competition in the space, 431 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:27,440 Speaker 1: leading to greater innovation and growth, thus benefiting shareholders down 432 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:31,680 Speaker 1: the line. Hughes isn't alone in wanting to see this happen. 433 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:36,399 Speaker 1: There are various organizations like the Electronic Privacy Information Center 434 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 1: that feel much the same, as well as lawmakers such 435 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:43,360 Speaker 1: as Senator Elizabeth Warren who have called for this kind 436 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:47,920 Speaker 1: of action. Facebook has proposed legislators come up with regulations 437 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 1: for the company regarding things like privacy and UH and competitiveness, 438 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:58,239 Speaker 1: but Hugh's argues that this is not nearly going far 439 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 1: enough to counter the potential threat the company poses to 440 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:07,680 Speaker 1: communication and competition. Other companies like Google and Amazon are 441 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,960 Speaker 1: watching all this very closely, as both of those have 442 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 1: also built empires on practices not too dissimilar from Facebook's. 443 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:19,000 Speaker 1: In fact, in Warren's case, we may see actions that 444 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:21,920 Speaker 1: will lead to numerous tech giants having to spend off 445 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 1: part of their companies by federal law, or at least 446 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 1: being taken to court for it. Should it happen, well, 447 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 1: in my opinion, I think it should. I think Facebook 448 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 1: needs to have some checks and balances in place to 449 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 1: prevent it from becoming the de facto arbiter of all communications. 450 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:45,000 Speaker 1: Anti competitive practices are harmful, and Facebook's practice of beatum 451 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 1: or buy them means that anyone with a compelling idea 452 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:52,080 Speaker 1: has little incentive to pursue it unless it's with the 453 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:54,560 Speaker 1: hope that Facebook will buy them out of the idea 454 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:57,680 Speaker 1: and they can cash out. Otherwise, you might think, well, 455 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 1: I might make this really cool social network king site, 456 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 1: but then Facebook is going to pay attention, and then 457 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 1: they're gonna copy me, and then they're gonna run me 458 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 1: out and I won't have any business at all. Regulations 459 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,000 Speaker 1: are also necessary, but I feel that Hughes is right 460 00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:14,200 Speaker 1: on the money. That's not enough to make sure the 461 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 1: company behaves in a responsible and accountable way. So will 462 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:22,480 Speaker 1: it happen that I'm not so sure about. Since the 463 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 1: nineteen eighties, there's been a shift that has been more 464 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:31,959 Speaker 1: favorable toward big business, leading to the establishment of mega corporations, consolidation, 465 00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:36,800 Speaker 1: and a reduction in competitiveness across numerous markets. It will 466 00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 1: take a lot of willpower to reverse that momentum. It 467 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:43,040 Speaker 1: will surprise me if the US government takes steps to 468 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 1: break up Facebook, not to mention Google and Amazon, but 469 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:49,920 Speaker 1: it would be a welcome surprise, as I think it 470 00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:53,120 Speaker 1: would ultimately be a better outcome for the rest of us. 471 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:56,640 Speaker 1: But that doesn't necessarily mean it will actually happen. What 472 00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:59,800 Speaker 1: do you guys think? Do you feel that Facebook has 473 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:02,360 Speaker 1: read to the point where we need to have this concern? 474 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 1: Are you worried that perhaps they have too much power 475 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,640 Speaker 1: over the way we communicate with one another? The real 476 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,320 Speaker 1: issue for me is that if you feel that way, 477 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:15,080 Speaker 1: you have few alternatives you can turn to to use 478 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:19,800 Speaker 1: instead of Facebook. Where do you go? That's where everybody is, 479 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:24,080 Speaker 1: and no one else can get a platform to get 480 00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 1: much traction because they're going up against a giant that 481 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:31,440 Speaker 1: can wipe them out pretty easily. It's a tricky thing, 482 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:34,120 Speaker 1: but I'm curious what you guys think. You can let 483 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:36,560 Speaker 1: me know, or you can send me any comments or 484 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:40,680 Speaker 1: questions you might have to the email address tech stuff 485 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:44,080 Speaker 1: at how stuff works dot com. You can dropped by 486 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 1: our website that's tech stuff podcast dot com. There you're 487 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,520 Speaker 1: going to find an archive to all of our older episodes. 488 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:54,440 Speaker 1: You'll find links to our presence on social media, and 489 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:56,880 Speaker 1: you will also find a link to our online store, 490 00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:59,320 Speaker 1: where every purchase you make goes to help the show 491 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:02,280 Speaker 1: and we rately appreciate it, and I will talk to 492 00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:11,160 Speaker 1: you again really soon. Y text Stuff is a production 493 00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:14,160 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio's How Stuff Works. For more podcasts 494 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:16,960 Speaker 1: from I heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, 495 00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:20,240 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.