1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:06,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to Crash Course, a podcast about political, social, and 2 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:10,000 Speaker 1: business disruption and what we can learn from it. I'm 3 00:00:10,039 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 1: Tim O'Brien. Today's Crash Course Authoritarianism versus Democracy. Today, I'm 4 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:20,440 Speaker 1: going to take you to Berlin to join me at 5 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 1: the epicenter of one of the most grotesque authoritarian moments 6 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:27,080 Speaker 1: in world history, the rise of the Nazi regime and 7 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 1: Adolf Hitler and all of the horrors that float out 8 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:33,840 Speaker 1: of that. To consider that history and the possible threats 9 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:38,120 Speaker 1: from authoritarianism in the present, I asked my colleague Andreas Kluth, 10 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 1: who writes about politics and national security for Bloomberg Opinion, 11 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:45,320 Speaker 1: to be my tour guide around Berlin and to focus 12 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 1: on a few key landmarks. Andreas, how are you? I'm good. 13 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 1: Thanks to him, Andreas is also a German, and I 14 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:57,680 Speaker 1: think that that's I'm sorry, a German American or an 15 00:00:57,680 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 1: American German, or as I like to think of it, 16 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 1: as your citizen of the world. That's maybe the better 17 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:04,319 Speaker 1: way to do cosmopolitan. I couldn't agree more. Yeah, So 18 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 1: I'm going to rely on Andrea's to be my tour 19 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:08,480 Speaker 1: guide today, and I think we're going to go on 20 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:10,840 Speaker 1: a walk now. And look at some buildings that might 21 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 1: give us a sense of what's happening in other countries 22 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 1: right now that I think should concern us all great. 23 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 1: So where are we right now? Andrea's right now. We're 24 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 1: standing in front of the reichs Talk the building, which 25 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 1: is of course the home of the Bundestag, the Parliament, 26 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 1: and there's a fairly elaborate security entrance here, which is 27 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:31,960 Speaker 1: surprising to me. I know every building needs some security, 28 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 1: but this is quite complex. Yeah, and it's surprising to 29 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 1: me that it's surprising to you, because don't they have 30 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:40,319 Speaker 1: this at the capital. You know. I haven't been to 31 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:43,040 Speaker 1: the US capital since January sets I know that they've 32 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 1: had to tighten security because of the siege that took 33 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:47,560 Speaker 1: place there, and so that's a good question. I think 34 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 1: when I get back to the US, I should go 35 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 1: take a visit and we can compare notes. And this 36 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 1: has also be insecurity has increased in the decade that 37 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 1: I've been here, because we had a copycat event here 38 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 1: pretty recently, a copycat of January sixth, when far right 39 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 1: extremists tried to storm this building but they failed. So 40 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 1: we're now smack in front of the Reichstag. Why is 41 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:10,840 Speaker 1: it useful for us to be standing here today to 42 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 1: start the tour you're giving me around Berlin. What's the 43 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 1: significance of this building if we try to understand the 44 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:21,360 Speaker 1: reasons why the Wimar Republic failed, And of course history 45 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 1: never repeats exactly, but we will definitely start noticing echoes 46 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:31,079 Speaker 1: that we hear today in the United States in different ways, 47 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:36,080 Speaker 1: in Turkey, Israel, Hungary, Russia, China, because when the Weimar 48 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 1: Republic failed, it was replaced by the Nazi regime. That's correct. 49 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 1: In nineteen thirty three, the Wimar Republic was replaced by 50 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:45,680 Speaker 1: the third Reich of it all, Hitler, even though he 51 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 1: never bothered to scrap the constitution, the Weimar Constitution. That's 52 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 1: how democracies died. They just get ignored. The taboos were broken. 53 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 1: He ignored the constitution, and that's how it could happen 54 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 1: if it happens again somewhere else. What does this building 55 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 1: mean to Germans and to bear Lennards. There's long lines 56 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 1: here as we stand here today and it's mid March, 57 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:08,239 Speaker 1: it's not the height of tourist season, and there's a 58 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:09,960 Speaker 1: lot of people here coming to look at this building. 59 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 1: Including us. Why is that because I think of the 60 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:17,960 Speaker 1: layering of history in this building, because it sort of 61 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 1: was a witness to some of the best the worst. 62 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: Then the other chapters, including division, the Berlin Wall ran 63 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:29,519 Speaker 1: right behind it, and then of course reunification and a 64 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 1: sort of second attempt at German democracy, which is succeeding 65 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 1: so far. So it's a story of all the way 66 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 1: down through hell and up again and maybe onwards towards 67 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 1: something stable. So let's use this a little bit now 68 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 1: to talk about the beginning. I think one of the 69 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 1: things we can do is we talk today is compare 70 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 1: how authoritarianism and fascism and Nazism took root here, How 71 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 1: once very solid and well regarded German institutions and the 72 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 1: rule of law failed and gave rise attraction to a 73 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 1: military regime with disastrous results. I think there's some echoes 74 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 1: of that. Probably more than echoes, I think there's some 75 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 1: lessons from that looking at what we're dealing with now 76 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 1: in the United States and in other countries Brazil, in 77 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 1: the Hungary, China, Russia. I think one of the things 78 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:20,600 Speaker 1: that's disturbing and poignant about this building is there was 79 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:24,400 Speaker 1: a fire here in nineteen thirty three, it was alleged 80 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 1: that it was started by a Communist, and the Nazis 81 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 1: essentially used that tale it might be mythic to make 82 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 1: a case if they were the only ones who could 83 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:39,360 Speaker 1: keep Germans safe. The way that went, we still don't 84 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: know who laid the fire. We know it was Arson. 85 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:47,159 Speaker 1: That was in February ninety years ago, and as you said, 86 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 1: the Nazis immediately blamed it on a Dutch communist and 87 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 1: then communists in general, and used it to get a 88 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 1: law passed to crack down on their domestic enemies. As 89 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:02,280 Speaker 1: authoritarians like to, you'd take the occasion to get rid 90 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:04,560 Speaker 1: of anyone you don't like. And that was followed a 91 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:07,800 Speaker 1: month later, by the way we're speaking, on March twenty third, 92 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:11,679 Speaker 1: exactly to the day, ninety years ago, by the Enabling Act, 93 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:15,799 Speaker 1: as an indirect result of the fire, which gave Hitler 94 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 1: dictatorial powers, and in effect, this parliament voted itself out 95 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 1: of power ninety years ago today as we're speaking, and 96 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 1: that was, of course the end. The Republic failed, first gradually, 97 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 1: then suddenly, and that was the sudden end, and the Nazis, 98 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 1: of course were incredibly dexterous about symbolism, about myth making, 99 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:43,919 Speaker 1: about acquiring force and power through any means necessary, And 100 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 1: that moment here at the Reichstag was in many ways 101 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:51,919 Speaker 1: the opening chapter of the Nazi regime. And one of 102 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:54,800 Speaker 1: the things that start to me about it is I 103 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 1: don't think many Germans at the time knew that they 104 00:05:57,080 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 1: were writing the back of a tiger. Hitler promised order. 105 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 1: There was things that Hitler did. He incited violence, he 106 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 1: had foot soldiers in brown shirts who helped keep order 107 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:09,599 Speaker 1: on the streets. But I think the German industrial class 108 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:13,720 Speaker 1: and other members stakeholders in German democracy thought he could 109 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 1: keep order and it might end at that, And of 110 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 1: course it became something quite other than that, didn't it exactly? 111 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 1: And I think some people might be starting to hear 112 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:23,919 Speaker 1: the echoes now. But a lot of people, including the 113 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 1: president Paul from Hindenberg, looked down on him at the beginning, 114 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 1: didn't take him seriously. They thought he was a cartoonish 115 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 1: character or make to dress up in little outfits and 116 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:37,239 Speaker 1: make silly speeches. Yes, or maybe they took him literally 117 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 1: but not seriously. Or that sound like I don't know, 118 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:42,680 Speaker 1: you tell me, yeah, well, I'll say it. I think 119 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 1: it sounds to me like Donald Trump, and I think 120 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 1: that's one of the reasons we're talking today. But you're 121 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 1: right in that the establishment at that time thirty two 122 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 1: thirty three, thought it couldn't manage him Hitler, and it 123 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 1: turned out very quickly that they couldn't. Because well, now 124 00:06:57,760 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 1: we're already talking about Hitler. But how did we get 125 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:01,839 Speaker 1: to that point is what I'm wondering, because by that 126 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:04,039 Speaker 1: time it was too late, and of course, as you said, 127 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 1: when it's too late, you don't know the day before 128 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:08,840 Speaker 1: it's too late that you only have one day left. 129 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 1: So this is the first of a few spots we're 130 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 1: going to look at together today. We decided to stop 131 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 1: here because this is the inflection point. This is when 132 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 1: erosion began around legislative democracy here in Berlin in Greater Germany. Right, Obviously, 133 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 1: there was a hyper inflation and there were things that 134 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 1: were different, but here are some things that were very 135 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:32,960 Speaker 1: similar to let's say the United States or Brazil today. 136 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 1: One was hyper polarization because of their system that manifested 137 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 1: itself in fragmentation, whereas in the UK and the US 138 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 1: you have two major parties that are polarized, but it 139 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 1: was polarized because the left, which were at that time 140 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 1: the communist socialist social democrats who hated each other, were 141 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 1: absolute mortal enemies of the right, which were the monarchists, 142 00:07:56,960 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 1: the nationalists and the Nazis, who started as a small movement, 143 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 1: and as in other democracies today, a majority were pragmatic, 144 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 1: moderate centrists, but they weren't loud or brutal enough. They 145 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 1: wanted to play by the rules and kept saying, can 146 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 1: we talk about this nicely? Whereas the extreme ends, if 147 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 1: you want to call it, the woke and the maga 148 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 1: crowds were shouting at each other and soon literally beating 149 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 1: each other up in the streets of the Waima Republic. 150 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 1: So there was both a rhetorical violence and then physical 151 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:34,560 Speaker 1: violence already in the nineteen twenties on the streets. And 152 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:37,840 Speaker 1: it's hard to keep that out of a parliament like this. 153 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 1: And authoritarians often exploit the fact that other people follow 154 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 1: the rules and they don't. Yes, absolutely, authoritarians exploit a 155 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:51,320 Speaker 1: couple of other things. One is they like conspiracy theories. 156 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:56,680 Speaker 1: It confuses us. The conspiracy theories like qan on today, 157 00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:00,840 Speaker 1: they're remarkably similar the tropes and structure to the anti 158 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:05,960 Speaker 1: Semitic an anti communists, but anti Semitic main conspiracy theories 159 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:08,840 Speaker 1: of the time. Even today qan On, one of the 160 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:11,440 Speaker 1: persons they most like to hate is George Sours, a 161 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:14,560 Speaker 1: Jewish cosmopolitan banker. I mean you could do a lineage. 162 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 1: So that was around and then with the useful device 163 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 1: in all of this, whether it's happening in the nineteen twenties, 164 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:24,680 Speaker 1: the nineteen thirties or the two thousands, is there's another 165 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 1: It may be a Mexican immigrant, It maybe China, It 166 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:31,080 Speaker 1: may be leftists exactly. Whatever it is, there is some 167 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 1: other force that's coming to take your freedom away, coming 168 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:36,840 Speaker 1: to take your sense of well being away. And the 169 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 1: authoritarian promises that they will keep order in place, so 170 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 1: quote unquote the other doesn't steal it from you. You 171 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 1: need to mobilize your base if you're a populist trying 172 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:49,679 Speaker 1: to become an authoritarian dictator, and you need the others 173 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:52,439 Speaker 1: us against them, and you need several others. You need 174 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 1: some domestic enemies and initially you're going to hate them 175 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:58,960 Speaker 1: more than anybody else, and you need some foreign ones too, 176 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 1: And both were available back then, as they are today 177 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:05,839 Speaker 1: because on top of this climate of conspiracy theories where 178 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:09,440 Speaker 1: nobody knew anything putin today loves. There's a famous book 179 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 1: called Nothing's True and Everything as Possible. It's his goal, 180 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:15,560 Speaker 1: his KGB mind wants us to think there is no 181 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 1: truth that was true back then as well, because then 182 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 1: a person named Adolf Hitler. First he coined this term 183 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:25,960 Speaker 1: in his book Mind comp which he wrote in prison 184 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:29,440 Speaker 1: after his first attempt failed attempt to take over in 185 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 1: the twenties twenty three. He went to prison twenty four 186 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:35,320 Speaker 1: and he coined the term the big Lie. You may 187 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:39,239 Speaker 1: have heard that recently. And in the book he accused 188 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:44,200 Speaker 1: the Jews of lying about World War One, that they 189 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:46,959 Speaker 1: really caused it, then tried to blame it on the 190 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 1: Kaiser and Hindenburgh, and that they lost the war, and 191 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 1: tried to blame it on a general named Ludendorf. That 192 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 1: was what he claimed the big Lie was. And then 193 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 1: he theorized about it and says, if you tell a 194 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 1: lie so big, so colossal, normal people can't imagine that 195 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 1: it's possible you're lying. Everyone assumes. That's when he got 196 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:12,000 Speaker 1: his idea for the Big Lie. And his version was 197 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 1: not that any election was stolen or stopped the steel. 198 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 1: His version was, we never lost World War One. On 199 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 1: the battlefield our domestic enemies, the woke left, actually the 200 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 1: Jews and the Communists, everyone out unlike they stabbed as 201 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:29,680 Speaker 1: in the back. So it became known as the stab 202 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 1: in the back myth. That was his big lie. He 203 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 1: did invoke theft. He did say that parts of the 204 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:39,679 Speaker 1: German Empire were stolen away, that the settlement at Versailles 205 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 1: was penurious, that the Germans gave up too much, and 206 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 1: that what he could affect, and what the Nazi regime 207 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:50,200 Speaker 1: could affect, is a reclamation of all those things that 208 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 1: were stolen, not just the German identity, but German lands right, 209 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:56,920 Speaker 1: the German lands that had been lost in the Versailles treaty, 210 00:11:57,080 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 1: the German lands that were demilitarized. That he took the 211 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:04,080 Speaker 1: first and above all the German honor because he played 212 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 1: and this is populist. Populist played to resentments, not ideals. 213 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 1: They played to the low, not the noble, sentiments in 214 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 1: the population. They want to mobilize a mob. So he 215 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:19,480 Speaker 1: was humiliated. Germans were humiliated, and he played to that 216 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 1: humiliation and resentment. So he had his domestic enemies whom 217 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:27,320 Speaker 1: he blamed for this, and he conveniently had foreign enemies, 218 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 1: foreign others right from the start to everyone who wrote 219 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:33,440 Speaker 1: the verse side Treaty. So we've been standing here talking 220 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:37,079 Speaker 1: about how democracy gave way to fascism in a place 221 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:39,719 Speaker 1: where it seemed that democracy was well rooted to we 222 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 1: walk a little bit further along and then we can 223 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 1: talk about what happened after that occurred. Absolutely, let's go 224 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 1: take a walk, Thanks Andreas. The Hitler Chancellery was all 225 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:58,719 Speaker 1: of this, It was gigantic. We're walking on it. In 226 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:02,079 Speaker 1: the fact that there's a time of sage parlor there 227 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 1: now where the entrance was, but that's basically was the 228 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 1: ground floor of the chancellory the thirties. We're actually already 229 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 1: over the bunker complex. Okay, so we're back from our 230 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 1: break and I'm still with Andreas and Berlin. Andreas has 231 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:21,120 Speaker 1: encouraged me to take a walk with him. Andreas, tell 232 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:23,720 Speaker 1: me and our listeners where we're standing right now. We're 233 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 1: standing on top of Hitler's bunker where he committed suicide 234 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 1: on the same day that the Russians took that building 235 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:35,160 Speaker 1: over there, the Reichstag and Greb was with him and 236 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 1: his family. They all committed suicide here this bunker. They 237 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 1: could never destroy it. They tried to destroy it the 238 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 1: East Germans. This is just on the eastern side, so 239 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 1: the remnants of it are below us. For the blocks, 240 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 1: all the blocks stretching out in this direction was Hitler's chancellery, 241 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 1: a bombastic space meant to intimidate people in that neoclassical 242 00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 1: fascist style. You had to march shamile just to get 243 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 1: to his office, which was huge. Meant to invoke the 244 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 1: Roman Empire and the Reich, which was envisioned to last 245 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 1: as long as the Roman Empire did. Yes as Mussolinia. Also, 246 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 1: they liked to borrow those ancient symbols the swastika from 247 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 1: India as well, and give them a timelessness to project forward. 248 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 1: But to intimidate the human being. The opposite of liberalism. 249 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 1: Make you seem small by the time you get to Hitler. 250 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 1: So when we started talking when we were at the Reichstag, 251 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 1: we talked about how democracy withers and then comes under 252 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 1: assault and then gets co opted and gives way to 253 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 1: something else. Here it gave way to the Nazis. It 254 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 1: doesn't do justice to all of the history. But one 255 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:39,080 Speaker 1: of the net results of that was a major World war, 256 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 1: millions of lives lost, and the Holocaust, the Cold War, 257 00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 1: and I think some of the lingering divisions they came 258 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 1: out of that whole conflict. The bunker itself, in a 259 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 1: certain way, is a happy ending, or at least it's 260 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 1: a reminder that the architect of Nazism was eventually defeated. 261 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:01,960 Speaker 1: That's right. It's a weird ending because remember they tried 262 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 1: to destroy it and couldn't. It was so well built 263 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:09,080 Speaker 1: that it's just slanted below us, flooded right now. So 264 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 1: in a way it's also it's a reminder that this 265 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 1: is below us. It could somehow resurface one day, a zombie, 266 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 1: like a zombie, the zombie of authoritarianism that doesn't actually 267 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 1: go away. You can try to kill it, but if 268 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 1: you don't keep an eye on it, it's going to 269 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 1: come marching after you. Once again, exactly, we're looking at 270 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 1: a memorial plaque here above the bunker, Andreas, there's a 271 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 1: whole chronology here. What's being laid out on this plaque 272 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 1: in front of us, the architecture of what's underneath us, 273 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 1: of the bunker, of the different rooms that they occupied. 274 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 1: He and his lover, if a Brown, they got married, 275 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 1: I believe, just before they committed suicide. And also the 276 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 1: other top nazis that we're here with him. So this 277 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:55,120 Speaker 1: is the bunker. Here's the wider map. One thing I 278 00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:58,440 Speaker 1: should say is that this and our next destination right 279 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 1: next to us, these are German buildings. As you can 280 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 1: see from the style that we're looking at the Berlin Wall, 281 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 1: which was two walls with a death strip in between 282 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 1: in case you want needed to shoot someone. And so 283 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:13,840 Speaker 1: this is sort of, as you said, one of the 284 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 1: consequences of Hitler and the destruction of the Third Reich 285 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 1: and all of that was the division of Germany, of Europe, 286 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 1: of the whole world, which ran right here, almost on 287 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:27,920 Speaker 1: top of his bunker as a result. So as we 288 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:31,840 Speaker 1: consider the Bunker and Hitler Andreas, he recently wrote a 289 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:34,880 Speaker 1: column that I thought was very powerful about the fact 290 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 1: that there's a younger generation of citizens of the world 291 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 1: who don't even know who Hitler is. Tell me a 292 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:44,160 Speaker 1: little bit about that. I was very uncomfortable when I 293 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 1: heard County West talking to Alex Jones and mentioning how 294 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 1: basically how much he loved the Nazison and Hitler was misunderstood, 295 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 1: and I realized he has no clue at all. And 296 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 1: because what's happened is we've turned Hitler into a meme. 297 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 1: You know, is a film with Bruno Guns about his 298 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:05,360 Speaker 1: last hours in this bunker. In one scene he loses it, 299 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:07,919 Speaker 1: and that scene has become a meme. M onm YouTube 300 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 1: you get the screaming Hitler and you put funny text underneath, 301 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 1: you know, the financial meltdown. In one I found that 302 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:18,879 Speaker 1: I should have bought dogecoin instead of fitcoin. And then 303 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 1: another one Hitler can't find a bagel on the Upper 304 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:25,400 Speaker 1: West Side, And you know, so it is inevitable perhaps 305 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:28,439 Speaker 1: that he would turn over time into parody, comedy and 306 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:30,439 Speaker 1: all these things. But the cost to that is an 307 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 1: ignorance like Kanye West's that shouldn't exist. And I think 308 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:37,480 Speaker 1: there's a power in comedy and humor to give us 309 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 1: a little bit of control over things that are frightening. 310 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 1: But the danger in it is if you take things 311 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:45,919 Speaker 1: so lightly that you're dismissive of their relevance and you're 312 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 1: dismissive of their gravity, they can come back to haunt you, 313 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 1: like the zombies we were talking about before. There's sometimes 314 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:55,239 Speaker 1: very facile comparisons between Donald Trump and Hitler. They make 315 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 1: me uncomfortable at times, because I think different regimes have 316 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:02,359 Speaker 1: different methods, different autocrats have different styles, and I think 317 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:08,680 Speaker 1: overusing Nazi comparisons and overusing Hilarian comparisons can degrade their 318 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:11,400 Speaker 1: power and their relevance. Nonetheless, one of the things that's 319 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:14,159 Speaker 1: interesting to me about our walk around Berlin together today 320 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:16,640 Speaker 1: and the reason we're doing this show, is that there 321 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:20,120 Speaker 1: are parallels between the past and the present and also 322 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:22,600 Speaker 1: around the issue of consequence. We're standing about the Bunker, 323 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 1: the consequences of war. We're going to go to another 324 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:28,920 Speaker 1: site where one of the other most horrible consequences of 325 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 1: the Nazi rise is visible to us today still exactly. 326 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 1: And actually I agree with you, and I'm grateful to 327 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 1: you because you're one of the people who's taken Trump 328 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 1: to task the longest, the hardest, and the most bravely. 329 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:44,920 Speaker 1: But that you also shy away from these fastile comparisons. 330 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:47,159 Speaker 1: And I tried too as well, and that's why I 331 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 1: actually usually turned to the Weimar Republic, the gradual before 332 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:54,000 Speaker 1: the sudden part of the collapse, because if America is 333 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 1: at any stage of this, it would be in the 334 00:18:56,080 --> 00:19:00,159 Speaker 1: late twenties, certainly, not anywhere near something like this. We're 335 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,480 Speaker 1: standing up and when Americans still have agency, Americans still 336 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:06,880 Speaker 1: have an ability to use their votes, to use their 337 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 1: legislative powers, to rely on the courts, to rely on 338 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 1: the institutes and like the media and educational institutions, to 339 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:16,439 Speaker 1: do the right thing in a fair minded way, but 340 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 1: to be bulwarks against totalitarianism. And with the advantage that 341 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:24,320 Speaker 1: they have this as a lesson, whereas in the Wimer 342 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 1: Republic they didn't. We are having a day full of 343 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 1: lessons and I'm really enjoying it. So where are we 344 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 1: going to go do next? We're now going just a 345 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:37,480 Speaker 1: few steps to the Holocaust Memorial. It occupies a huge 346 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 1: area between the US Embassy and where Hitler's bunker was, 347 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:47,159 Speaker 1: and it is essentially all described an undulating sea of 348 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:51,680 Speaker 1: concrete slabs meant, I think quite clearly to evoke a 349 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:56,440 Speaker 1: Jewish cemetery. And there's a sort of feeling of infinity 350 00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:59,639 Speaker 1: to the number of slabs that remind you of the 351 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:05,399 Speaker 1: mill that died, and a sort of disturbing asymmetry that 352 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:08,160 Speaker 1: the paths are angled. You can walk between the slabs, 353 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 1: but it's never even ground, and you're off balance, and 354 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 1: you just realize that something is really fundamentally wrong. It 355 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 1: feels wrong, it doesn't feel quite good. The whole Acost 356 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 1: Memorial finally opened, I think, on the sixtieth anniversary of 357 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 1: the end of World War Two in two thousand and five. 358 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:31,480 Speaker 1: It was the result of a lot of different architectural competitions. 359 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:36,960 Speaker 1: The final design was Peter Eisenman's and Richard Sarah. One thing, 360 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:40,160 Speaker 1: by the way we're observing that I almost always observe 361 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 1: when i'm here, and that I like, is there's a 362 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:45,920 Speaker 1: school class, because of course it's baked into the German 363 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:51,560 Speaker 1: education system. That's children go to Buchenwald, Sachsenhausen, Dacho, the 364 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:55,640 Speaker 1: concentration camps, and here and other venues to learn these 365 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:59,880 Speaker 1: lessons that we've been talking about. Something else often observe 366 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 1: is when the school classes are here, teenagers just the 367 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:06,640 Speaker 1: wheel of time. When they relax, they're playing catch, they're 368 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:10,479 Speaker 1: playing hide and seek. Their lovers sometimes between these slabs kissing. 369 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:14,200 Speaker 1: I'm not sure that's not in the interest of the artist, 370 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 1: because it has become part of the space. It's also 371 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:20,480 Speaker 1: a reminder that life goes on. That life goes on, 372 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:22,800 Speaker 1: but you can't forget the horrors of the past if 373 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 1: you want to live your life in the present with 374 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:28,719 Speaker 1: honor and with integrity. And on that note, I remember 375 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 1: reading that the slabs are either coated in something or 376 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:35,880 Speaker 1: made in such a way that they're essentially graffiti proof, 377 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:38,159 Speaker 1: or that it's easy to wash that off, because of 378 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 1: course the big fear was and that tells you a 379 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:45,480 Speaker 1: lot about that the story is not definitively over. There's 380 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 1: always a fear that neo Nazis or others could put 381 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 1: swastikas on it, that sort of thing, and deface this 382 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:56,439 Speaker 1: whole memory. So the whole ambiguity of the past is 383 00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:58,440 Speaker 1: there in that way. But in general, I think it's 384 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 1: a very special place. And you know, as we walked 385 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 1: up to the memorial, we noted that it's the Holocaust Memorial, 386 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:10,240 Speaker 1: but we actually didn't specifically say what it memorializes, because 387 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:12,439 Speaker 1: you and I know this is otherwise known as the 388 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 1: Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe. But like your 389 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:19,120 Speaker 1: column about Hitler in which you note how important it 390 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:21,439 Speaker 1: is that people know who Hitler is in such a 391 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:25,400 Speaker 1: colloquial and routine way that you shouldn't have to describe 392 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:29,439 Speaker 1: Hitler's acts or Hitler's own personal history. There is a 393 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:32,640 Speaker 1: danger that without memorials like this, that we can forget 394 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,879 Speaker 1: that at least six million Jews in Europe were rounded 395 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:39,160 Speaker 1: up and murdered by the Nazi regime and concentration camps. 396 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:41,800 Speaker 1: And that's another important thing. As familiar as this is 397 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:44,919 Speaker 1: to you and me, it may not be familiar to 398 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:48,800 Speaker 1: generations to come, especially in a time when authoritarianism is 399 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 1: on the rise. I'll tell you on the way here, 400 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:54,679 Speaker 1: we also passed the memorial to the Roma and Sinti 401 00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 1: over there behind those trees, as a memorial to the homosexuals. 402 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:01,719 Speaker 1: Hitler kilt or they're not is killed. I'll tell you 403 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 1: the type of memorialization that touches me most and that 404 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:08,679 Speaker 1: I've written about because of that. It's when you individualize it. 405 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:11,440 Speaker 1: That's the other way. Because there is a project it's 406 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:15,880 Speaker 1: called Stumbling Stones in English, where private citizens in Germany 407 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:19,520 Speaker 1: and all across Europe can research who lived in their house, 408 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:22,280 Speaker 1: and if someone lived in the house who was killed 409 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:26,199 Speaker 1: by the Nazis, then an artist Gunta Demning comes to 410 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:29,440 Speaker 1: visit you and in a ceremony puts a brass plaque 411 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 1: in the floor with the names and the date of 412 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:37,160 Speaker 1: death of the people, usually the Jews who lived there, 413 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:41,600 Speaker 1: and so all across Berlin, the residential areas, you stumble 414 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 1: across these plaques, these tiny little brass plates in the 415 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:47,840 Speaker 1: pavement and you look down. And I've noticed that that 416 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:50,640 Speaker 1: works for my children, for instance, they immediately they take 417 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 1: to that. You stumble over it, you look down, you 418 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:56,160 Speaker 1: read that, and you read one person's story. And so 419 00:23:56,440 --> 00:24:01,360 Speaker 1: it's actually the memorialization is all the time everywhere if 420 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 1: you open your eyes to it, and literally embedded into 421 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,119 Speaker 1: the life and the sidewalks and the buildings of Berlin. 422 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:10,720 Speaker 1: The digital equivalent of that, there's a wonderful Twitter site 423 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:14,920 Speaker 1: that the Auschwitz Museum overseas and their feed on each 424 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 1: day they offer a single biography of a single Jew 425 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 1: who was brought to Auschwitz and died there, and they 426 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:26,639 Speaker 1: provide as much biographical material as they can about that person, 427 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:29,239 Speaker 1: their age, the date of their death, and they're all 428 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:32,679 Speaker 1: very poignant. It's accompanied usually by a black and white photograph. 429 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:35,200 Speaker 1: That's the digital equivalent. I think of what we're talking 430 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 1: about here at the Holocaust Memorial in a tangible and 431 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:41,919 Speaker 1: physical way. The other thing that feels important and poignant 432 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:45,080 Speaker 1: to me about this memorial is again the weaponization of 433 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:48,120 Speaker 1: the idea of the other, that it can become facile 434 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 1: to say that there are people of different political persuasions 435 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:58,640 Speaker 1: or ethnicities, different races, different genders, different sexual identities, different faiths, 436 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:02,360 Speaker 1: all of whom somehow represent a threat to your own identity, 437 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:04,679 Speaker 1: your own sense of yourself, the kind of society you 438 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:07,320 Speaker 1: want to live in. That's the tug of war that 439 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 1: always occurs inside democracies. I think the danger is when 440 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 1: it stops being a healthy discussion of our differences and 441 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:17,960 Speaker 1: teeters into the hands of people who want to stomp 442 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 1: out pluralism and tolerance. Absolutely, and it starts with that 443 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:27,120 Speaker 1: otherization us in them, and then the exclusion. I mean 444 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 1: it started with the German Jews being excluded throughout the thirties, 445 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:34,400 Speaker 1: long before anyone had the idea of the final solution. 446 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:37,639 Speaker 1: Where do we see that today? I mean the closest 447 00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 1: sort of parallel would be I think the Wigger concentration 448 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 1: camps that China has in Shinjung. That is a totalitarian regime. 449 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 1: It's a totalitarian dream that has a surveillance architecture that 450 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:52,960 Speaker 1: Hitler could only dream about, but that the East Germans 451 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 1: came closer to achieving. But you know, we're not saying 452 00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:59,359 Speaker 1: by coming here that authoritarianism leads in one step too 453 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:03,640 Speaker 1: exactly this again, we're just saying it leads to very 454 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:07,280 Speaker 1: bad things. And for example, what Putin is doing in 455 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 1: Ukraine is an example of that. In a weird twist, 456 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,720 Speaker 1: he said, Ukrainians don't exist, they're really Russians. They're just 457 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:17,959 Speaker 1: misinformed about themselves. But then when they didn't play along, 458 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:22,440 Speaker 1: he otherized them and he turned them. He calls them Nazis, ironically, 459 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:27,920 Speaker 1: he calls them Satanists, and he's stealing their children. That's 460 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:31,440 Speaker 1: an act of genocide. It's part of the definition, abducting 461 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 1: their women and killing their civilians. And so you're only 462 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 1: capable of committing such outrageous once you've trained you and 463 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 1: your followers for a long time to think in us 464 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:46,240 Speaker 1: and them as these people have. And we talked a 465 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:48,359 Speaker 1: little bit about it when we started the show today, 466 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:51,639 Speaker 1: Andreas about the events of January six when we were 467 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:54,680 Speaker 1: over at the Reichstak. I wouldn't begin to compare January 468 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,480 Speaker 1: six to either Putin's invasion of Ukraine or the Holocaust. 469 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 1: But January six is the dangerous outcome a violent rhetoric 470 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:05,160 Speaker 1: and a willingness to torch the norms of a civil 471 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:09,080 Speaker 1: society and to torch the constitution. And January sixth is 472 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 1: a warning shot. I think about what can happen if 473 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:14,679 Speaker 1: we let our guard down. I think it was a 474 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 1: warning shot, and I think what was breached was it 475 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:23,280 Speaker 1: marked the transition of subliminal violence that had been in 476 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 1: the language of Maga of the Proud Boys for a 477 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 1: long time, of subliminal to potential violence, and then took 478 00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:34,840 Speaker 1: that one step to physical violence. It didn't have to 479 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:38,080 Speaker 1: be physical violence on the scale, but once you make 480 00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:43,560 Speaker 1: that transition, other things become thinkable and other taboos become breakable. 481 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,520 Speaker 1: And I think that's why it was such an important moment. 482 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:50,520 Speaker 1: On that somber an important note, I want to take 483 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 1: a break and hear from one of our sponsors. When 484 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,440 Speaker 1: we come back, we'll walk back over to the Reichstag 485 00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:58,120 Speaker 1: because you told me there were some reasons you wanted 486 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,080 Speaker 1: us to end the show there today. Let's do that. 487 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:09,879 Speaker 1: Thanks Andreas, So Andreas, We've walked around a lot today. 488 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,760 Speaker 1: We started at the Reichstag. We're now finishing at the Reichstag. 489 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 1: That was also your idea. I thought we'd end on 490 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,200 Speaker 1: a more open ended route. You thought it'd be useful 491 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:22,399 Speaker 1: to come back here and take a second look at 492 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 1: this building. Why is that? Because the story here in 493 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 1: this place has an open ending. Even though the story 494 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,639 Speaker 1: isn't finished it. We don't know how the story ends elsewhere. 495 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:36,000 Speaker 1: Because what I think the lesson is that this struggle 496 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 1: between democracy and authoritarism is a tug of war that 497 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:44,760 Speaker 1: goes on forever. The uplifting part here is it's very 498 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 1: emotional what happened after reunification. You know, this building had 499 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:54,720 Speaker 1: been mothballed during the entire Cold War. A British architect, 500 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,480 Speaker 1: Sir Norman Foster, came in. They decided to move the 501 00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 1: capital from Bond to here. So the workman got busy 502 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,440 Speaker 1: and they stripped off the paneling and they found the 503 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,640 Speaker 1: bullet holes from the end of the war April nineteen 504 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 1: forty five. Russian bullet holes. Russian bullet holes. They came 505 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,600 Speaker 1: from the Swiss embassy over there, shot at it from 506 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 1: here and from the other side entered it, and then 507 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 1: the Russian soldiers drunk on vodka, they scrawled their names 508 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 1: graffiti on these walls, and they found that in the 509 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:25,080 Speaker 1: nineteen nineties when they were preparing to renovate it, and 510 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 1: a big debate broke out, what should we do now 511 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 1: that we have a united country again and still want 512 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 1: to have a better democracy, and they decided to leave 513 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 1: the graffiti on the walls. Some of it had to 514 00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:39,560 Speaker 1: be removed, you know, so that it's g rated or 515 00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 1: PG rated, but make it a feature rather than a bug. 516 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 1: But now would off Schultz and the members of parliament 517 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:49,680 Speaker 1: when they cast a vote on the Ukraine War, they 518 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:53,880 Speaker 1: walked past the graffiti that the Russian scrolled there after 519 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 1: the defeat of Nazi Germany and the total destruction of 520 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 1: their country at that time, and that sort of what purpose? 521 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,600 Speaker 1: What's the value in having that so front and center. 522 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,720 Speaker 1: I think it's an exhortation, Like all these monuments here. 523 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:10,760 Speaker 1: It's subtle and not everyone may notice it, but it's 524 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:15,760 Speaker 1: saying be vigilant. Never think the story is over. There 525 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:19,680 Speaker 1: is no end of history. The struggle continues, and make 526 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:25,400 Speaker 1: sure this democracy doesn't fail a second time. My crash course, 527 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 1: colleague Anna Mazarakis, and I were talking as we drove 528 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:32,840 Speaker 1: in from the airport into Berlin, how singular it is. 529 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:36,840 Speaker 1: I think that Berliners and Germans more broadly have kept 530 00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 1: these reminders so central to the life of the city. 531 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:43,280 Speaker 1: We've looked at a few of them already today, the Reichstag, 532 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:48,400 Speaker 1: the Bunker, the Holocaust Memorial. But it is essentially an attempt, 533 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 1: I think, to use a physical reality monuments, memorials and 534 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 1: once bombed out buildings as a reminder of the horrors 535 00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:58,520 Speaker 1: of the past so we don't repeat them in the present. 536 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:00,800 Speaker 1: And as Anna and I talked about that, we were 537 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 1: marking how the US, for example, we don't really have 538 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:08,480 Speaker 1: the same kind of tangible memorials to the genocide involving 539 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:12,000 Speaker 1: Native Americans. We don't have the same kind of tangible 540 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,720 Speaker 1: reminders of slavery, and there's not a lot of other 541 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:16,920 Speaker 1: countries that do. And there's something to be said for 542 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:20,480 Speaker 1: the fact that the Germans have embraced it to that extent. 543 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:23,360 Speaker 1: Explain to me why you think it was so important 544 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:28,160 Speaker 1: to Germans to do that. The West German identity during 545 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:31,160 Speaker 1: the Cold War was actually built well, first of all 546 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:33,480 Speaker 1: with the help of the Americans in particular, and the 547 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:37,160 Speaker 1: Western allies, but then it was built on the foundation 548 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 1: of atonement. At some point they realized, we have to 549 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:45,160 Speaker 1: examine ourselves and make sure this never happens again, but 550 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:49,240 Speaker 1: also we have to take this responsibility and not whitewash anything. 551 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:53,400 Speaker 1: And they said, no, we're gonna memorialize it and build 552 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,520 Speaker 1: a new identity on that because the old one is erased, 553 00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:00,440 Speaker 1: and so it became part of German identity. The Germans 554 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:04,440 Speaker 1: were merged into that identity, not always successfully, but I 555 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,600 Speaker 1: think the United Nations agreed that we're going to build 556 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:11,360 Speaker 1: our iconography around that idea of atonement, of never again, 557 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 1: and we're going to get it right this time. So 558 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,960 Speaker 1: we're standing at a place where democracy in Germany was born, 559 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:21,960 Speaker 1: where democracy in Germany was torn out, where democracy was 560 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:25,880 Speaker 1: fought over through a war, and where democracy was restored. 561 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:31,600 Speaker 1: Do you feel optimistic that democracy will remain in place 562 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:34,520 Speaker 1: and well protected and well regarded elsewhere in the world. 563 00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:38,360 Speaker 1: There's a phrase I've heard, paranoid optimism. I think I'm 564 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 1: a paranoid optimist, which is good. I believe that in 565 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 1: this place, in this country, they're not going to do 566 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:48,720 Speaker 1: it again. You mentioned to me over dinner how ironic. 567 00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:51,360 Speaker 1: It is that the US and nature that we're trying 568 00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:55,960 Speaker 1: to get Japan and Germany to rearm. Well, that's common 569 00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:58,600 Speaker 1: sense today because they're not going to be the same 570 00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 1: threat they were. The threat has moved somewhere else. So 571 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 1: it's not about a place going evil. It's more it 572 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:08,600 Speaker 1: could happen again somewhere and in a different way. And 573 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:13,160 Speaker 1: so in that sense, this building has lessons to teach 574 00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:15,960 Speaker 1: other countries today because the struggle and the tug of 575 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:18,840 Speaker 1: war is going on in much of the world, and 576 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:21,360 Speaker 1: it can disappear when people let their guard down, when 577 00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:24,960 Speaker 1: people take institutions for granted, and when people don't really 578 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:28,040 Speaker 1: respect the rule of law, when taboos are broken and 579 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 1: people get bored with that and stop pointing it out, 580 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:34,719 Speaker 1: when rules are broken, when the independence of the judiciary 581 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:39,240 Speaker 1: is undermined, as in Poland, as in Israeli was attempted, 582 00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:41,880 Speaker 1: but it didn't work. See, that's what should happen. What 583 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 1: the Israelis have stopped that move to make their courts 584 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:49,160 Speaker 1: dependent on the government. And there's an ongoing battle in 585 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:52,280 Speaker 1: the US over this. It sprang fully formed into view 586 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:54,800 Speaker 1: after the twenty twenty election, when there was a big 587 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:57,720 Speaker 1: battle in the court system and then try to use 588 00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:00,880 Speaker 1: the law to overturn the results of the twenty election. 589 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:04,560 Speaker 1: American voters, American citizens had to really rely on the 590 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:09,480 Speaker 1: judiciary and the wisdom of judges in different states, the 591 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,760 Speaker 1: sort of sanctity of the judiciary itself and the judicial 592 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:16,080 Speaker 1: process to protect democracy and to protect the vote. But 593 00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:18,239 Speaker 1: in many cases that that was on a knife's edge. 594 00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:20,120 Speaker 1: At different times and in different states, that was on 595 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:22,680 Speaker 1: a knife's edge. And of course America, I think the 596 00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:27,120 Speaker 1: checks and balances are old and mature and robust. But 597 00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:29,680 Speaker 1: if you look at Hungary, they are no longer there. 598 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:32,840 Speaker 1: And the checks and balances include the courts, they include 599 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:36,360 Speaker 1: the press, they include other institutions like universities as well. 600 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:39,879 Speaker 1: In Hungary, a lot of them have been neutered. In 601 00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:43,560 Speaker 1: other countries they're gone. Russia they're gone. And you know, 602 00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:46,120 Speaker 1: just Freedom House, the think tank, they've been publishing a 603 00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:50,520 Speaker 1: report for fifty years on democracy, and they came out 604 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 1: with one just a couple of weeks ago. So for 605 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:56,280 Speaker 1: the first three decades they observed that generally the trend 606 00:34:56,360 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 1: was toward more democracy. For seventeen years in a row, 607 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:04,239 Speaker 1: it's gone the other way. The Bright spot there, since 608 00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:06,520 Speaker 1: I am a paranoid optimist, is that the pace of 609 00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:11,400 Speaker 1: decline has slowed. But basically, with these same lessons, the 610 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:15,080 Speaker 1: Americans have to now relearn them or remember them, and 611 00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:18,640 Speaker 1: so does everybody else. Well, I'm glad you just raised 612 00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:20,840 Speaker 1: the issue of a lesson because I always like to 613 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:24,279 Speaker 1: ask guests on the show what lessons they've learned from 614 00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:27,239 Speaker 1: epic collisions. In this case, we've been talking about the 615 00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:31,200 Speaker 1: collision between authoritarianism and democracy. You've been an excellent tour 616 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:35,040 Speaker 1: guide today. You've educated me and tutored me about various 617 00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:38,120 Speaker 1: things that we've looked at. Having looked at all of 618 00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:41,080 Speaker 1: this so long yourself, what is a fresh lesson or 619 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:43,879 Speaker 1: what is something that made you say aha in this 620 00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:49,399 Speaker 1: current battle and collision we're having between authoritarianism and democracy 621 00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:52,799 Speaker 1: in recent years. I think the two Aha moments was 622 00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:57,120 Speaker 1: not so much January sixth as I was watching it, 623 00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:00,719 Speaker 1: but when I was watching as many Germans to the 624 00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:04,520 Speaker 1: January sixth Committee and Liz Chenny, and to see how 625 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:06,880 Speaker 1: close it was and to see it hanging in the 626 00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 1: balance because it is unresolved. The story is open ended. 627 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:14,279 Speaker 1: We're not in the last chapter. And simultaneously east of 628 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:17,319 Speaker 1: us what Putin has been doing so long, and that 629 00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:20,319 Speaker 1: the Germans have only woken up to now because they 630 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:24,319 Speaker 1: were in Lala land about this, which is the systematic 631 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:28,080 Speaker 1: attack against truth, just to get us to think it 632 00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:31,480 Speaker 1: doesn't even exist. There's only infinitely many versions of it. 633 00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:34,720 Speaker 1: And you can flip perpetrator and victim, you can flip 634 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:37,120 Speaker 1: the role. He can attack Ukraine and says, well, actually 635 00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:40,360 Speaker 1: Ukraine and nature was attacking us, we had to defend ourselves. 636 00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:42,360 Speaker 1: And then he thinks it can go on to commit 637 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:48,480 Speaker 1: genocide and convince his population that kind of cynicism happened 638 00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:51,359 Speaker 1: here where we're standing once and must not happen again, 639 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:55,440 Speaker 1: or must not be allowed to succeed again. So democracy 640 00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:58,880 Speaker 1: was reborn here at the Reichstag, but Trumpism is alive 641 00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:02,360 Speaker 1: and well in the United States. And on that note, Andreas, 642 00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:04,040 Speaker 1: I want to thank you for being with us today. 643 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:08,440 Speaker 1: Thank you, Jim. You can find Andrea's Cluth on Twitter 644 00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:12,120 Speaker 1: at Andrea's Kluth, and you can find his columns at 645 00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:16,960 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Opinion. Thanks for joining us today here at Crash Course. 646 00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:21,080 Speaker 1: We believe the collisions can be messy, impressive, challenging, surprising, 647 00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:24,640 Speaker 1: and always instructive. In today's Crash Course, I learned that 648 00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:28,080 Speaker 1: while history may not repeat itself, it often rhymes. And 649 00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:30,880 Speaker 1: while the next dictator may not have a pencil mustache, 650 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:33,800 Speaker 1: if he or she comes in the guise of a cartoon, 651 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,439 Speaker 1: that still doesn't mean they're not dangerous. What did you learn? 652 00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:40,040 Speaker 1: We'd love to hear from you. You can tweet at 653 00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:43,880 Speaker 1: the Bloomberg handle at opinion or me at Tim O'Brien 654 00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:47,920 Speaker 1: using the hashtag Bloomberg Crash Course. You can also subscribe 655 00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:50,239 Speaker 1: to our show wherever you're listening right now and leave 656 00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:52,680 Speaker 1: us a review that helps more people find the show. 657 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:58,040 Speaker 1: This episode was produced by the indispensable Annamazarakas, Moses dam 658 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:01,960 Speaker 1: and me are Supervising producer is Magnus Henrickson, and we 659 00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:05,640 Speaker 1: had editing help from Sage Bowman, Katie Boyce, Jeff Grocott, 660 00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:09,680 Speaker 1: Mike Nizza, and Christine Vanden Bilard Blake Maple says. Our 661 00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:12,719 Speaker 1: sound engineering and our original theme song was composed by 662 00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:16,560 Speaker 1: Luis Garat. I'm Tim O'Brien. We'll be back next week 663 00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:22,719 Speaker 1: with another Crash Course. Busnist is my What does that mean? 664 00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:25,840 Speaker 1: See you next time? My German stops it off fain 665 00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:27,120 Speaker 1: affida Zin