Speaker 1: Hi everybody. I'm l Laura Harden and I played Jan
Speaker 1: Levinson on the Office. Well, welcome back everyone, Thank you
Speaker 1: so much for joining me again here on the Office
Speaker 1: Deep Dive. I am your host, as always, Brian Baumgartner
Speaker 1: on the podcast today, as you just heard, we have
Speaker 1: the insanely talented Laura Harden. Me. Laura is an incredible
Speaker 1: actor and probably more than anyone else in the cast.
Speaker 1: Acting and show biz was in her blood. Both of
Speaker 1: her parents worked as actors, and she herself started out
Speaker 1: as a child actor. She starred, She didn't just appear.
Speaker 1: She starred in a TV show called Thunder when she
Speaker 1: was ten years old. So by the time we filmed
Speaker 1: the pilot, me Laura was definitely the most established performer
Speaker 1: on set. And now me Laura played a kind of
Speaker 1: unique role in the ensemble, right, I mean, she was
Speaker 1: the big wig boss who rolls in from New York
Speaker 1: every once in a while. She's not there in every episode,
Speaker 1: but she brought so much to the show in that role,
Speaker 1: especially in terms of her dynamic with Steve Carrell, which
Speaker 1: was so hilarious and well obviously something we discussed at
Speaker 1: length during this conversation. Unfortunately, because of COVID. I couldn't
Speaker 1: sit down with me Laura in the studio, but even
Speaker 1: just talking to her by phone was an absolute treat
Speaker 1: for me, and so therefore now a treat for you.
Speaker 1: So here she is, Laura Harden. Bubble and squeak. I
Speaker 1: love it. Bubble and squeak, Bubble and squeaker, cookie, every
Speaker 1: moment left over from the nut before. You know, I've
Speaker 1: tried to As I told you before, I tried to
Speaker 1: do all these in person. I did Ricky and Stephen uh,
Speaker 1: Stephen Merchant and Ricky Gervais the other day. You sound
Speaker 1: so much better than they do. I don't know what's
Speaker 1: wrong with that, just because better than they are. Well, yes,
Speaker 1: obviously I'm gonna actually i'll send you later a picture.
Speaker 1: I am in a room totally by myself. I'm standing
Speaker 1: so that I don't catch coronavirus in this thing. I'm
Speaker 1: about three feet staring directly into a wall. It's very concerting,
Speaker 1: but you know, um, all right, Laura, thank you so much,
Speaker 1: um for coming to talk to me here. Well, you
Speaker 1: didn't really go anywhere, You didn't really go anywhere, but
Speaker 1: so I want to talk a little bit about you
Speaker 1: before the Office. You started as a child actor, right, Yeah.
Speaker 1: I started acting professionally when I was six years old.
Speaker 1: So I was doing tons of you know, guest starring
Speaker 1: roles I had done. I think The Office was like
Speaker 1: my eleventh pilot that I had done. I had done
Speaker 1: many short lived series. I've done some movies and yeah
Speaker 1: that's and I've done a little feater too. So I
Speaker 1: had heard fourteen. But but you just said so the
Speaker 1: The Office was the eleventh pilot that you had shot.
Speaker 1: What happened to the ten before? It could have been?
Speaker 1: It could have been the fourteenth. I don't know, you know,
Speaker 1: to be honest, I've done so many. I mean a
Speaker 1: lot of them were like short lives some of some
Speaker 1: of them were just pilots and then they would get canceled. Um.
Speaker 1: Some of them were short lived series. I was on
Speaker 1: quite a few series that lived for you know, six episodes,
Speaker 1: ten episodes. Uh, well, I did. I did some shows
Speaker 1: when I was a really kid, Like I did a
Speaker 1: Shaturday morning show for kids when I was ten about
Speaker 1: a black stallion that came when I whistled, and together
Speaker 1: we would save the day, and and that one ran
Speaker 1: for a series that was like twenty two episodes, and
Speaker 1: then and then I did another one called Cliffwood Avenue Kids,
Speaker 1: which was a syndicated show at the time when shows
Speaker 1: were syndicated, and I was nine when I did that,
Speaker 1: and that one, I think was like twenty five episodes.
Speaker 1: But other than that, most of the shows I did
Speaker 1: were like six episodes, you know, five episodes, or just
Speaker 1: pilots that then were that were never picked up. When
Speaker 1: did you first hear about the American version of the Office?
Speaker 1: Had you seen the British version. I had never seen
Speaker 1: the British version. I'm not a big TV watcher in general. Um,
Speaker 1: and I I remember it was I remember it weird,
Speaker 1: And it's weird that I do remember it, because I don't,
Speaker 1: you know, the we was so many auditions at that
Speaker 1: time in my life that it's weird that I remember it.
Speaker 1: But I remember going over there, and I remember it
Speaker 1: was sort of a last minute thing. You know. Usually
Speaker 1: actors are, you know, supposed to be told the night
Speaker 1: before so that they have at least a night with
Speaker 1: the material. But it was sort of one of those
Speaker 1: things where I think my agent called and said, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, we have this thing for you. They want
Speaker 1: you there at like a two o'clock today. It was
Speaker 1: like an afternoon thing. I had already been on a
Speaker 1: couple other auditions or something. I remember walking in, picking
Speaker 1: up the material, standing outside and working on it um
Speaker 1: and basically going in pretty cold and just doing it
Speaker 1: but liking it like right away. And what was funny
Speaker 1: was that Allison are our casting director. She had been
Speaker 1: I get Shell was also casting a pilot at the
Speaker 1: time that I had been in on the day before,
Speaker 1: and probably this is how this last minute audition happened,
Speaker 1: was probably through Allison, because I had been in for
Speaker 1: that and they were making a deal for me to
Speaker 1: come in to do a test for this other pilot.
Speaker 1: And so I went in. I read hold for the
Speaker 1: office pretty much pretty cold. But I also could, you know,
Speaker 1: just because I've been doing this as long as I
Speaker 1: as I have, you can really feel when the room
Speaker 1: is like buzzing with what you're doing, Like everybody was
Speaker 1: kind of riveted. It was ten Koppie and it was
Speaker 1: you know, Greg Daniels and um, I'm pretty sure Phillis
Speaker 1: was maybe there, but anyway, Allison for sure. And so yeah,
Speaker 1: I did it, and I remember everybody just kind of
Speaker 1: being I could tell they were just kind of like, hump,
Speaker 1: they were they were really liking, you know, liking what
Speaker 1: I did. And anyway, so the next I think it
Speaker 1: was like a couple of days later or the next
Speaker 1: day even, I went into test for this pilot and
Speaker 1: Allison came out you know where I was the waiting
Speaker 1: room and it was just me and she came out
Speaker 1: and she said hi, and I said hi, and she goes,
Speaker 1: you were fantastic in you know, in that audition for
Speaker 1: the Office. Now, remember the Office was a guest star
Speaker 1: possible reach character. That's not like just for people that
Speaker 1: don't know. That's a nice thing to get, but that's
Speaker 1: not like getting a series, like a starring role on
Speaker 1: a pilot that could turn into a series, because that's
Speaker 1: more money and that's you know, better for us as actors. Anyway,
Speaker 1: so I was, like I said to Alison, I was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I said that was fun. I said, well, you don't
Speaker 1: I really liked it, Like maybe I'll get both, and
Speaker 1: she goes, uh, I really want you to get that one.
Speaker 1: I really want you to get the Office. And I
Speaker 1: thought to myself, hump, Okay, you know that's interesting. You know,
Speaker 1: she's a she's a she's a pro. She's been around
Speaker 1: a long time, and she knows something, you know, she
Speaker 1: knows like she could tell that. I think that the
Speaker 1: office was special, and so I basically just went in.
Speaker 1: I read for the other thing. I didn't end up
Speaker 1: getting it. The pilot did get made, it did not
Speaker 1: get picked up, and I ended up getting the office,
Speaker 1: and here we are. That's that is crazy. And when
Speaker 1: you were originally cast, you didn't think it was a
Speaker 1: big thing like it was. Maybe it was going to
Speaker 1: come back. Maybe, I mean, maybe the role would come back,
Speaker 1: but but you had no expectation for anything long term.
Speaker 1: I didn't. I mean, you know, as I said, I've
Speaker 1: been doing it so long that you just you get
Speaker 1: to where you kind of have a pretty fixed skin
Speaker 1: and you're pretty wary about things. And I mean I
Speaker 1: always tell everybody that I didn't even believe we were
Speaker 1: a hit. Um, even after we'd won the Emmy. I
Speaker 1: didn't believe we were a hit until we won the
Speaker 1: sag Award. And I had to walk around with that
Speaker 1: like fifty pound, you know, statue all night and the
Speaker 1: next morning I woke up and my bicep was so
Speaker 1: sore that I couldn't lift my arm. It was like,
Speaker 1: literally I needed physical proof. And then I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: maybe we are a hit. And it was I just
Speaker 1: think it's like hit me a lot later than anybody
Speaker 1: else in the cast, because I just was I had
Speaker 1: done so many things that were like semi successes or
Speaker 1: you know, I just didn't believe it, like I just
Speaker 1: didn't believe it right well. And and you know, you were,
Speaker 1: you know, you were the most experienced film and television
Speaker 1: actor certainly in the pilot. And so when you showed up,
Speaker 1: did you have any sort of first impression of the
Speaker 1: other people in the cast. I remember thinking that it
Speaker 1: was just really well cast. I remember just feeling like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, these are just great characters, you know,
Speaker 1: and I and I loved immediately. I loved working with Steve.
Speaker 1: I mean, I would say, because of my experience, you
Speaker 1: can really get a sense very very quickly of the
Speaker 1: actors that can that can play with you, and the
Speaker 1: actors that can't. And um, because all my stuff was
Speaker 1: with Steve in that first season, I really didn't work
Speaker 1: with you guys at all. Really, I mean I had
Speaker 1: no interaction with you, really decides just glancing at you
Speaker 1: and you're glancing at me. But but it was like
Speaker 1: it was like I was so relieved and so grateful
Speaker 1: and excited that whenever the cameras would roll, I felt
Speaker 1: Steve was very playful with me on camera as far
Speaker 1: as just his ability to you know, give and take
Speaker 1: and just kind of be really in the moment and
Speaker 1: not get thrown by any little new thing I might
Speaker 1: throw his way, Whereas sometimes you work with more inexperienced
Speaker 1: actors and you'll do it one way and they'll go, oh,
Speaker 1: you didn't do it like that, or they'll be like, oh,
Speaker 1: I wasn't expecting that because the last time you did
Speaker 1: it more like this, you know, And that always just
Speaker 1: kisses me off so much, because I'm always like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, like, really, are you kidding me? We can't
Speaker 1: do it like, we can't do it different and have
Speaker 1: fun and all and try a new thing, you know.
Speaker 1: But Steve was always just like, you know, just so
Speaker 1: ready with the bat, you know, to hit the ball
Speaker 1: however it came, and I think we both had a
Speaker 1: lot of fun with that. I mean, I would hope
Speaker 1: he would say that he did. I certainly had a
Speaker 1: great time working with him, right, I mean, It's funny
Speaker 1: because I just started thinking about how so much, yes,
Speaker 1: as you said, especially early on, but really throughout the show,
Speaker 1: how connected you were with Steve, and how so much
Speaker 1: almost unlike most of the rest of the show, you
Speaker 1: guys played one on one quite a bit, so most
Speaker 1: of your experience wasn't really with the entire ensemble, again,
Speaker 1: particularly early on, but really with Steve. Yeah, yeah, I
Speaker 1: really was, And that was very interesting. Yeah, that was
Speaker 1: very interesting, I felt, you know, and I felt that
Speaker 1: I think even as time went on, there was sort
Speaker 1: of a sense of not belonging there for a long
Speaker 1: long time. Really, I don't think I ever felt like
Speaker 1: I belonged really, but I think that's probably by virtue
Speaker 1: of the of the way that it was written. But
Speaker 1: I that's not to say that I didn't enjoy everybody
Speaker 1: and love everybody and feel like everybody you know, enjoyed me.
Speaker 1: I did. I don't know. I just felt like the
Speaker 1: little like the team, the clan, like you guys were
Speaker 1: in the office every day together, um, you know, and
Speaker 1: I wasn't. I would pop in and out, and when
Speaker 1: I did, it was always it was mostly that kind
Speaker 1: of more private things, which was maybe by design because
Speaker 1: Yan is kind of an outsider, right. I Mean the
Speaker 1: other thing that that occurred to me is, you know,
Speaker 1: we've done a lot of conversation about you know, the
Speaker 1: cast of this show and how different it was at
Speaker 1: this time and place specifically that our show started, you know,
Speaker 1: to break the mold, and they really sort of leaned
Speaker 1: into these are real, ordinary people who are working in
Speaker 1: an office specifically in Scranton, Pennsylvania. And it felt like
Speaker 1: to me that you, you and your character though like
Speaker 1: maybe it was you being like a New York person,
Speaker 1: right like you always seemed and looked felt a little
Speaker 1: more put together, a little more you know, which really
Speaker 1: contrasted in a way with with everyone else who was
Speaker 1: who was in the office, right right, Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: that's true. And I and I remember that that was
Speaker 1: even somewhat of a of a of a struggle with Greg.
Speaker 1: I remember Greg Daniels Um talking a little bit about that,
Speaker 1: even with me and and and with the costume designer
Speaker 1: and um, with the makeup and hair people. You know,
Speaker 1: he used to say a lot, you know, like make
Speaker 1: sure she's not too pretty, make sure she's not you know,
Speaker 1: like don't dress her too holid you know, take you know,
Speaker 1: take the makeup down a little or or he sort
Speaker 1: of and he grappled with, you know, why would why
Speaker 1: would Michael be with someone that looked like and felt
Speaker 1: like jan Like, how would he get someone like her?
Speaker 1: And that was like, that was I just think a
Speaker 1: thing on his radar all the time, because he really
Speaker 1: wanted it to feel you know, really real and really
Speaker 1: documentary and really like we were really peeking in on
Speaker 1: this um these people's lives. And I think I think
Speaker 1: that was just always a thing for him, and he
Speaker 1: was always tracking that, and he would talk to me
Speaker 1: about that, and you always wanted to know what I
Speaker 1: thought about that? Why would she be attracted to someone
Speaker 1: like that? And and I had lots of reasons, you know,
Speaker 1: I I it for me, it was the need to
Speaker 1: figure that out. But but that's my job, you know,
Speaker 1: that's part of my job as an actor and certainly
Speaker 1: as a working actor for as long as I was.
Speaker 1: You have to find a way to win your mind,
Speaker 1: justify kind of anything that that's thrown at you. So
Speaker 1: I had gotten very good at at knowing how to
Speaker 1: how to make something that seems almost unfathomable, you know, real,
Speaker 1: what do you think Jan did see and Michael. I
Speaker 1: feel like Jan was um. You know, she was really
Speaker 1: brought up in a Mann's world. I think she became
Speaker 1: more masculine in her affects and her behavior than she
Speaker 1: actually was inside and I out like, you know, some
Speaker 1: part of her was really sort of sad about the
Speaker 1: loss of her femininity. And I feel like that that
Speaker 1: Michael's kind of puppy like adoration of her um made
Speaker 1: her feel more feminine and more womanly and more more
Speaker 1: like she could just be, you know, softened softer with him.
Speaker 1: And I think she wasn't. I don't think she was
Speaker 1: softer with him on the outside. I just think inside
Speaker 1: his sort of like he just wouldn't stop coming after her,
Speaker 1: even when she was a total, you know, bitch to him.
Speaker 1: I think that I think that just made her feel
Speaker 1: loved and like she could let down a little bit
Speaker 1: of that masculine guard that she had learned, you know,
Speaker 1: that learned behavior. Right. Do you think that there was
Speaker 1: real love there between Michael and Jan, Yeah, I do.
Speaker 1: I think it was completely dysfunctional, but I do, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I do. I think she I think she didn't even
Speaker 1: know that she was in love with him. I think
Speaker 1: she was right. Yeah, there's um, it's interesting. We I've
Speaker 1: been doing a lot of talking about sort of michael
Speaker 1: search for family and his need and desire to be
Speaker 1: loved and you know, for him, his landing the boss,
Speaker 1: right Jan, the sophisticate from New York, right like that
Speaker 1: for him is a huge win. And I think, you know,
Speaker 1: raises himself up in his own mind. Um, but I
Speaker 1: think it was really well said, like that she was searching,
Speaker 1: you know, she was she was coming from a specific
Speaker 1: culture and maybe wanting something different for herself. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: mean I think she just was really focused on climbing
Speaker 1: that corporate ladder and forgot about her her need for
Speaker 1: you know, companionship. And I think he was all wrong
Speaker 1: in every way and there was something that was like
Speaker 1: und undeniably attractive about that for her. I think she
Speaker 1: just needed a little bit of shaking up and sort
Speaker 1: of that that adoration that he had of her, Like
Speaker 1: just he just was so proud of of having sex
Speaker 1: with her, He was so proud of having a relationship
Speaker 1: with her, and she was just like, you are so stupid.
Speaker 1: But but I like that he kind of liked being
Speaker 1: his trophy, even though you know she found him ridiculous.
Speaker 1: I think do you think do you think that she
Speaker 1: had gotten to a point where she was lowering her standards? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't think she had standards. I think she would have.
Speaker 1: I just don't literally, I literally don't think she was thinking.
Speaker 1: I think she forgot about her love life. I think
Speaker 1: she probably you know, had had sort of sex, very
Speaker 1: disconnected sex with like, you know, different executives that she'd
Speaker 1: worked with. But I don't feel like she really had
Speaker 1: a real relationship with anybody that was really meaningful until Michael.
Speaker 1: And I think that my instinct is that, like, her
Speaker 1: relationship with her father was probably pretty um like disconnected.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that Greg would say that that
Speaker 1: she had lowered her standards. I don't think it was
Speaker 1: really about standards. I think she just was taken with
Speaker 1: his um you know, Let's say Steve's you know, description
Speaker 1: of that would be that it was more like an
Speaker 1: ego phil. I don't know. I don't know what Steve
Speaker 1: would say as far as if that was Michael's ego
Speaker 1: phill to be with Jan or if he really was
Speaker 1: crazy for her. But I think the way that Jan
Speaker 1: read it was like Jesus I can like keep you know,
Speaker 1: beating this dead horse and it keeps fun like it
Speaker 1: makes her feel loved, it makes her feel worthy. It's
Speaker 1: just a weird phenomenon, right. I think Jan definitely, you know,
Speaker 1: liked it that she could curl up in his arms
Speaker 1: and you know, on the on the bench on the
Speaker 1: bottom of the bed where she put him. She could
Speaker 1: cry and she could be like, I'm sorry, and he
Speaker 1: probably could be like, oh it was it was nothing.
Speaker 1: I don't even know what you're saying sorry for, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean. What do you think that their relationship,
Speaker 1: What do you think that it added or gave to
Speaker 1: the to the show overall? Well, I think it gave.
Speaker 1: It gave him a kind of, um like a sexual
Speaker 1: play that I don't think he would have had, uh
Speaker 1: necessarily without it. And you know, it was really something
Speaker 1: that Steve and and I and and Greg Daniels noticed
Speaker 1: in the pilot. I remember being at lunch with with
Speaker 1: all of us, the three of us were having lunch together,
Speaker 1: and I remember Steve and I and Greg all kind
Speaker 1: of saying, you know, there's some kind of an interesting
Speaker 1: spark between Michael and Jan, like there's something about them,
Speaker 1: and we were all like, Yeah, if we get an opportunity,
Speaker 1: if we get picked up, we should really have them
Speaker 1: hook up sometime at a convention or something. And we
Speaker 1: were all laughing about this idea that maybe we'd get
Speaker 1: to have them, you know, have some kind of an affair.
Speaker 1: So I think there was just the titilation that it
Speaker 1: added to the show in the same way that you know,
Speaker 1: the Pam and Jim love story had a little bit
Speaker 1: of tittilation to it, and you know, and there were
Speaker 1: other stories that you know, Dwight and Angela, you know,
Speaker 1: there were things that all happened over time, and I
Speaker 1: think that created at fun sort of titulation. And and
Speaker 1: also because because the Michael and Jan's story was like
Speaker 1: there was something really right about it, but also something
Speaker 1: so wrong. It's just it's just, you know, it's just
Speaker 1: it's kind of delicious, right. How much input did you
Speaker 1: have on Jan with Greg or the writers? Um? I mean,
Speaker 1: I think I do think it was a dance. I mean,
Speaker 1: Larry Wilmore early on really loved to write Jan, and
Speaker 1: he and I became friends, were still friends. Um, So
Speaker 1: we used to talk about Jam a lot over lunch
Speaker 1: and stuff. Greg and I talked about Jan a lot,
Speaker 1: especially as seasons went on. You know, Um, Greg was
Speaker 1: always curious about what I thought about you know what,
Speaker 1: I how I felt she might react to this or that. Um,
Speaker 1: that was really nice. And I would say for me again,
Speaker 1: you know, just referring back to how long I've been
Speaker 1: in the business, that was my first experience where writers
Speaker 1: were really interested and collaborative in television. Uh, And so
Speaker 1: Greg really like that really changed for me just sort
Speaker 1: of everything that came after that, you know, just the
Speaker 1: feeling of that. And I I'm not sure I think
Speaker 1: Greg was a big, big part of changing the way
Speaker 1: writers really are on sets, on television sets. I really
Speaker 1: do think he was kind of a maverick and a
Speaker 1: leader in that, certainly for for my experience, which was
Speaker 1: you know, he the at that time. I've had a
Speaker 1: lot of experience, and I just never had writers interacting
Speaker 1: on such an intimate way with the actors and just
Speaker 1: being on set as much as they were being, you know,
Speaker 1: being so involved and so hands on and really wanting
Speaker 1: to hear from all of us. I loved that. Gosh,
Speaker 1: that was just a revelation for me, right, I mean,
Speaker 1: often on other shows, like writers are on set to
Speaker 1: really oversee and make sure that the words are being
Speaker 1: said right or said correctly right. But you know, I
Speaker 1: I agree, I think here it was really about a
Speaker 1: collaboration and finding the best answers that we could to,
Speaker 1: you know, to make something funny or you know, to
Speaker 1: make it work better than it really was collaborative. So
Speaker 1: that was different for you. Greg was different for you. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and all the writers and and um, I mean Mindy
Speaker 1: Mindy Kaley wrote that, you know, wrote that episode of
Speaker 1: me singing the baby to the baby because I had
Speaker 1: just done Lame is on on at the Hollywood Bowl
Speaker 1: and she was so blown away that I had done
Speaker 1: that and that you know that I had a voice
Speaker 1: like that, and she was like, we've got to get
Speaker 1: you singing on the show, and I got to find
Speaker 1: a way to do it, and you know, and that
Speaker 1: it was just kind of neat that they were wanting
Speaker 1: to really use like what we had to give, and
Speaker 1: they were, you know, finding ways to do it. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, and they would take things that we would
Speaker 1: say and turn them into jokes. I mean, the whole um,
Speaker 1: the whole breastfeeding the baby at the office thing. For
Speaker 1: me happened, I think really because I was breastfeeding my
Speaker 1: daughter at a brunch that we had with Gregg and
Speaker 1: his wife and Steve and his wife that Greg's house,
Speaker 1: and I think it made it made Steve in particular uncomfortable,
Speaker 1: and I think that Greg was sort of I don't
Speaker 1: think he was uncomfortable, but I think, you know, I
Speaker 1: also felt really like very feminist about that, you know, like,
Speaker 1: you know, we can carry guns in this country, but
Speaker 1: you can't breastfeed a baby, and that's like what our
Speaker 1: boots are for, you know, like I felt. And I
Speaker 1: think I even said that at the brunch, and I
Speaker 1: think Greg just took that and was like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: this is amazing. We're doing this on the show. And
Speaker 1: I think the war Hal thing also came, I think
Speaker 1: similarly because of that, because they came over to my
Speaker 1: house for dinner with Paul Fieg and his wife one night.
Speaker 1: And I have a record cover that I you know,
Speaker 1: I have a few CDs and that I've made, and
Speaker 1: one of the record covers of my record called Her
Speaker 1: is a painting that one of my closest friends who
Speaker 1: I've known since I was twelve years old, painted for
Speaker 1: me and it's a giant painting of me with a
Speaker 1: whole bunch of kittens, and it's basically a kind of
Speaker 1: inspired by a gil elve Grin pin Ups painting. And
Speaker 1: we had that hanging over my couch in our old house,
Speaker 1: and I remember when they came in, um Greg saying
Speaker 1: something about it, and me saying, you know, what's interesting
Speaker 1: about that is that is that I wonder sometimes if
Speaker 1: people think that I think that that's like serious, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean, Like if people think that, like
Speaker 1: I have a painting of myself over my couch, like
Speaker 1: I have to see myself every day at a giant painting,
Speaker 1: you know. And I was we were joking about how,
Speaker 1: you know, I think it's funny that that For me,
Speaker 1: it's like a total ton of tongue in cheek thing.
Speaker 1: But it's also reverence of my second CD and this
Speaker 1: sort of like you know, all these very funny tongue
Speaker 1: in cheek songs that are you know, that are that
Speaker 1: I wrote. And so for me, it's like it's a
Speaker 1: part of a celebration of something I achieved in my life.
Speaker 1: That's part of my like passion and you know, but
Speaker 1: it also is to me a joke like I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't think of it as like, you know, like
Speaker 1: the Queen's portrait. But I think he loved that so
Speaker 1: much and we had such a long talk about it
Speaker 1: that then it showed up in the dinner party and
Speaker 1: I just remember loving it so much, like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: this is genius. Like Greg is just so good at
Speaker 1: spotting where there is an opportunity to just you know,
Speaker 1: make a great joke about something. How much of Malla
Speaker 1: do you think there isn't? Oh my god, of course,
Speaker 1: I mean, isn't there. I mean, I think everybody. I
Speaker 1: think all my characters have me and them for sure.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm I'm them there me. Um, I'm a
Speaker 1: lot different than her, of course, um you know, but
Speaker 1: I think for sure, like the sexuality piece of her is,
Speaker 1: like you know, I I brought that for sure. I
Speaker 1: don't think they would have necessarily known that jan was
Speaker 1: that kind of I don't think they would have gotten
Speaker 1: that she was that sexual had I not been playing her.
Speaker 1: I just felt that about her and brought that to her.
Speaker 1: And I think I'm way warmer than her, and I
Speaker 1: certainly you know, way more way more conscious and she is.
Speaker 1: I've done like you know, way over ten thous hours
Speaker 1: of therapy. Like, I know myself a lot better than
Speaker 1: jan those person um, you know, but I think certainly
Speaker 1: there's elements of her that are me and neither are her.
Speaker 1: That would be weird if there were. You know. One
Speaker 1: of the other things I think that the show explores
Speaker 1: is this idea of the American dream, both with you know,
Speaker 1: with love or bettering themselves, like with Jim and Pam
Speaker 1: or Michael um. And you know, specifically the Dinner Party episode,
Speaker 1: which is I mean maybe maybe the best episode that
Speaker 1: we ever did. UM to me, it it talked very
Speaker 1: specifically about the financial strain that we as Americans were
Speaker 1: really in on at the time. So it was played
Speaker 1: for comedy, but there were there was real stuff going
Speaker 1: on there. Yeah, totally, Yeah, And that was an interesting
Speaker 1: time just even the making of that episode was you know,
Speaker 1: was was right during the writers strike, so it was
Speaker 1: a very weird. It was a weird time to be
Speaker 1: making that episode. Anyway, we had to stop, we stopped
Speaker 1: and started again, I seem to recall, Um, Yeah, and
Speaker 1: we were very it was very, very very hot. We
Speaker 1: were in a little condo over in the valley and
Speaker 1: it was like, oh my god, it was just horribly,
Speaker 1: horribly hot. It was like a hundred and three degrees
Speaker 1: or something. So we had to keep turning the air
Speaker 1: conditioning off so that we would you know, for sound.
Speaker 1: So we were all in there, just wedding, and we
Speaker 1: couldn't really go anywhere. We literally couldn't really get away
Speaker 1: from anybody. So whatever issues you were having, we were
Speaker 1: all having them together. Right. You talked a little bit
Speaker 1: about this before, But what do you think Jan's dream was?
Speaker 1: I mean, some would say she she had the American
Speaker 1: dream at that moment, right, Like she's the CEO of
Speaker 1: her own candle company and she's singing and she has
Speaker 1: a man at home that's taking care of her, right, Like,
Speaker 1: do you think that that was her dream? Um? Yes,
Speaker 1: well I think it was sort of what she thought
Speaker 1: her dream was. Um. But obviously, you know, it obviously
Speaker 1: wasn't because she was so tortured in pursuing maybe pursuing
Speaker 1: you know, this idea of an ideal that she thought
Speaker 1: was going to make her happy and but she was,
Speaker 1: but it wasn't. It wasn't making her happy because she
Speaker 1: had more to give than that, um. And also because
Speaker 1: she just wasn't with the right partner. I mean, ultimately,
Speaker 1: Michael is definitely not you know, he definitely couldn't match her,
Speaker 1: he couldn't need her. He's not as intelligent as she is.
Speaker 1: He's not as worldly as she is. You know, he's
Speaker 1: probably not as sexual as she is. Like, like, I
Speaker 1: remember one a friend of mine telling me before I
Speaker 1: got married that there's like four things people need to
Speaker 1: look at with whoever they're potentially going to marry before
Speaker 1: they marry them. Basically, it's like physical activity, like if
Speaker 1: you know, one's a couch potato and one likes to
Speaker 1: hike all the time, that's not going to work out
Speaker 1: so well. And the other is religion or spirituality you
Speaker 1: have to be kind of on the same page there,
Speaker 1: and then sexually you have to be kind of have
Speaker 1: the same you know, similar appetite, and then intellectually right,
Speaker 1: so it's like all those things. If you look at
Speaker 1: any of those things with jan and Michael, they're probably
Speaker 1: pretty much missing every single target. That's so good well,
Speaker 1: her like Journey, I mean, on the outside, you could
Speaker 1: say that she had it all right. She's a super
Speaker 1: successful businesswoman in New York City, and then she gets
Speaker 1: fired for that and falls apart art and moves into
Speaker 1: a condo with her boyfriend. Right, but then she kind
Speaker 1: of builds herself up again and she has this candle business,
Speaker 1: and then she has a baby, and then she eventually
Speaker 1: becomes like a big executive again for White Pages. Like,
Speaker 1: I don't know, there's just something about her searching, uh
Speaker 1: that is just so interesting to me. Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: it's sort of it's the wonderful it's the wonderful element
Speaker 1: of not enough that she's constantly he's constantly trying to
Speaker 1: fill that void of um, nothing is ever enough, you know, Um,
Speaker 1: Michael's not enough, and then the job is not enough,
Speaker 1: and then the next job is not enough, not enough.
Speaker 1: And I think that I think I really infused her
Speaker 1: with that. That's just the thing I understand super well.
Speaker 1: And and I think it's a it's a it's a
Speaker 1: fascinating and very funny thing to to sort of wrap
Speaker 1: a character in sort of that cloak of just nothing
Speaker 1: ever ever being satisfy factory. And I think it's also
Speaker 1: just I think, to me, jan is a great example
Speaker 1: of what a lot of women go through. I think
Speaker 1: people identify with her because she struggles with I think
Speaker 1: a common problem just in modern day society amongst women,
Speaker 1: which is this this idea of not enough of what
Speaker 1: that is, you know, that what what are we supposed
Speaker 1: to be? You know, we're supposed to be able to
Speaker 1: be moms and successful businesswomen and great sexy partners and
Speaker 1: money earners and soft and beautiful. And it's a real thing.
Speaker 1: And I think that Jen encapsulated that in a way
Speaker 1: that no other character on the Office did. I agree,
Speaker 1: her search the entire time was an active search for
Speaker 1: something better. Yeah, for sure, um, other than it being
Speaker 1: super freaking hot. But other than that, is there any
Speaker 1: other specific memory race that you have from Dinner Party episode? Well,
Speaker 1: first of all, I mean one of the greatest moments
Speaker 1: of the Dinner Party was just a purely improvised moment
Speaker 1: where you know, where, um, I say, I'm the devil,
Speaker 1: and I put my hands up and just did that
Speaker 1: little devil a little devil horns on my head. And
Speaker 1: that was just something that just literally came to me
Speaker 1: in the moment and out of the moment. I didn't
Speaker 1: plan on that. I just that was just what I
Speaker 1: was feeling like at the moment. And and you know,
Speaker 1: Steve just took it and ran with it, and then
Speaker 1: he was doing horns, and I think it's like literally
Speaker 1: one of the funniest and I remember that we were
Speaker 1: that we were like even in the moment, we were
Speaker 1: like mad at each other and almost cracking each other
Speaker 1: up simultaneously, which I think is such an incredible line
Speaker 1: to walk that I think probably is where a lot
Speaker 1: of the sexual tension lies with Michael and Chance. It's
Speaker 1: the sort of fighting and fucking thing, you know, um,
Speaker 1: And I just I just think that that was just
Speaker 1: to me captured in that moment, and it was a
Speaker 1: real moment, like the audience is seeing that exactly what
Speaker 1: happened is exactly what happened, you know, and that's sort
Speaker 1: of so so so fun and so special when you
Speaker 1: get that on television, because that's like pretty rare that
Speaker 1: you get any moments like that on television. That's more
Speaker 1: of like a theater experience. So that was pretty cool.
Speaker 1: And then I think just the amount of times that
Speaker 1: we just all couldn't hold it together, I mean, how
Speaker 1: much we cracked each other up, and and I think
Speaker 1: that we were all just the discomfort of being in
Speaker 1: such a small space, it being it's so hot, were
Speaker 1: like all on top of each other. I mean, my god,
Speaker 1: we just couldn't stop laughing at like Steve, I think
Speaker 1: must have said a hundred different versions of you know,
Speaker 1: getting his tubes tied, like I don't. I mean, we
Speaker 1: just tried so many different ridiculous versions. It was great
Speaker 1: and so fun and again so collaborative, and you know,
Speaker 1: the writers sort of throwing things in and see throwing
Speaker 1: things out, just you know, and me throwing some things out.
Speaker 1: I don't. It was just so fun. It was to me,
Speaker 1: it's just like playing in a sandbox that whole episode.
Speaker 1: And I remember Jenna and I having we had some
Speaker 1: scene where I just remember we couldn't literally was the
Speaker 1: only time on the show that I that I couldn't
Speaker 1: stop laughing. I don't remember. I think we were just
Speaker 1: so tired and hot, and it was sort of the
Speaker 1: end of the night and I think everybody was sent
Speaker 1: home and it was just she and I and where
Speaker 1: she's like in the bathroom or something, and I don't
Speaker 1: remember exactly what the scene was, but it's upstairs and
Speaker 1: I'm like, and I have to knock, and like every
Speaker 1: time I opened the door, she opened the door. We
Speaker 1: both were just burst into laughter. And it's like, and
Speaker 1: that's a very unusual thing for me where I can't
Speaker 1: get myself together. But I think it took like I
Speaker 1: think it took like ten to twelve takes before I could.
Speaker 1: It was it was not good. It was like it
Speaker 1: got to a point where I was like, come on
Speaker 1: the Laura, Like I had to slap myself. Well, I
Speaker 1: think you know, a lot of people mentioned it as
Speaker 1: their favorite episode, as you you said before it you know,
Speaker 1: it came out of a really really difficult time in
Speaker 1: our industry and the writer strike. But another thing that
Speaker 1: comes up a lot is just how how incredibly cringe
Speaker 1: e it is. It's that and Scott's taughts. Kind of
Speaker 1: the two episodes on our show that was the most cringing,
Speaker 1: And I think the moment that that represents that to
Speaker 1: me at least, I don't know, maybe it's as a man,
Speaker 1: but the snip snap, snip snap. Oh god, yeah, and
Speaker 1: the idea of being forced to get a vasectomy and
Speaker 1: then get it reversed and then get another one and
Speaker 1: then it plays out in public, Um, I know, it's
Speaker 1: so bad. And then I mean also the the Aso
Speaker 1: Buco that's like not even in yet, right, and that
Speaker 1: everyone's been through that, like, oh no, didn't you really
Speaker 1: have to do this? All right, I'm gonna wrap it
Speaker 1: up soon. I do want to go back. And there
Speaker 1: was one thing that last night, just I don't know
Speaker 1: what fascinated me. A lot of the times that you appeared,
Speaker 1: as we talked about before, you were one on one
Speaker 1: with Steve, but then a lot of times you were
Speaker 1: one on one with Steve, but you were on the phone.
Speaker 1: Can you tell me a little bit about how those
Speaker 1: scenes were actually produced? Yeah, So I would come in
Speaker 1: to set and I would go in the other room
Speaker 1: and we would actually record me on the phone two
Speaker 1: rooms away, so that we could really have a real
Speaker 1: scene that was in the moment um, and I would
Speaker 1: actually be on the phone in the other room and
Speaker 1: he would be on the phone on camera, and we
Speaker 1: would play the scene like that. That's so rare, right,
Speaker 1: I mean that, you you know, right, I mean because
Speaker 1: normally you would shoot the scene with a person on camera,
Speaker 1: and then you if you weren't on camera, then you
Speaker 1: would be in a recording studio somewhere recording your side
Speaker 1: of it, or you know, show up at some time.
Speaker 1: But the the humor and comedy of those scenes that
Speaker 1: we're playing out, you know, really played out almost as
Speaker 1: though you were looking at each other in the room. Um,
Speaker 1: I remember you over in the annex right, like where
Speaker 1: Toby used to sit. You would call in from there
Speaker 1: and then you guys would get together and have notes,
Speaker 1: and then you would walk back into the other room, right, Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I thought that was so great. It is,
Speaker 1: it is, and it is honoring the real um benefit
Speaker 1: of like having two actors there to to discuss and
Speaker 1: to be you know, we're with the writers and like
Speaker 1: with the director, and you know, we're all kind of
Speaker 1: a team, and it's it's kind of honoring that human
Speaker 1: that human thing that I think we're all really missing
Speaker 1: right now, that human interaction that that none of us
Speaker 1: can have at the moment with the whole COVID nineteen things.
Speaker 1: But that is one of the great you know, one
Speaker 1: of the great things about our work is that it
Speaker 1: is so human. It's so it needs humans, and it
Speaker 1: needs our human input and it and it needs to
Speaker 1: be done by humans. I mean, you really can't. You know,
Speaker 1: everyone's like, oh, you know, someday it's just gonna be robots.
Speaker 1: They're not gonna need actors anymore. And I'm like, I
Speaker 1: don't I don't think so, you know, I think humans
Speaker 1: connect to other humans, and you know, you can make
Speaker 1: them as real as you want, but there's still not humans.
Speaker 1: And um and he and we're the ones that come
Speaker 1: up with the surprising proof of of the moment that
Speaker 1: makes it so much more hilarious or so much more
Speaker 1: poignant because of what the writers wrote and because of
Speaker 1: how the actors, you know, find the truth in there.
Speaker 1: So I don't know, I've just been thinking about that
Speaker 1: a lot, I guess, just just the human nous of
Speaker 1: of what we do and how we really rely on connectedness,
Speaker 1: human connectivity and and you know, we need each other
Speaker 1: like you need another actor across from you, you know,
Speaker 1: swinging the ba at and hitting the ball back to
Speaker 1: you and like playing tennis, it's like you've got to
Speaker 1: have got to have that to make a scene fly.
Speaker 1: So um, I'm so grateful for for that on this show,
Speaker 1: just the you know, I would say that Steve, he
Speaker 1: played the game really really well on camera. I loved
Speaker 1: I just loved when when they would say role camera.
Speaker 1: I loved how we played together. I loved how free
Speaker 1: he was hitting the ball back to me and and
Speaker 1: receiving whatever ball I threw him, even if it was
Speaker 1: a curveball here and there, he would sort of receive
Speaker 1: it with glee and hit it back with real fun.
Speaker 1: And I think that's just because we both have had
Speaker 1: a lot of improv in our background, and when you
Speaker 1: improvised really well, you know, you're good at like making
Speaker 1: those surprises work for you. So yeah, I think that
Speaker 1: for me, it was probably the greatest joy looking back
Speaker 1: on the office, the times of the office, just being
Speaker 1: able to play ball with everybody. You know, what do
Speaker 1: you see as the show's legacy? Gosh, I mean, I
Speaker 1: don't know, it's it's like such a phenomenon um. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think sort of like any great comedy that's just
Speaker 1: really memorable, you know, like the Andy Griffith Show and Seinfeld,
Speaker 1: and you know, they were kind of doing something that
Speaker 1: hadn't really been done successfully yet, and they did it
Speaker 1: in a way that was just right, was just right,
Speaker 1: and everything about the show, you know, from the writing
Speaker 1: to the acting, to the cast of the directors to
Speaker 1: the producing, you know, it just was right. It just
Speaker 1: clicked and you know, who can ever say why, Like,
Speaker 1: I don't know why because I think because it's so
Speaker 1: it's really trying to be what it is. It's never
Speaker 1: not trying to be what it is, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean. It's just so unlike anything else that was
Speaker 1: on television or had ever been on television. And I
Speaker 1: think that is the magic of it. That's the thing
Speaker 1: that made it be able to withstand this many years
Speaker 1: and this much success and this much love. Yeah, I um,
Speaker 1: I mean, you're just so talented and you were so
Speaker 1: awesome as jan and your thoughtfulness and incisiveness, and I
Speaker 1: just appreciate you so much. So thank you so much
Speaker 1: for coming to talk to me. I appreciate you so much, Brian,
Speaker 1: and I and I love that you're doing this. And
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not really one too. It's funny, I
Speaker 1: don't really I really wouldn't have thought of talking about
Speaker 1: this stuff unless you've brought up the questions. So I
Speaker 1: appreciate you're also you're very thoughtful questions and I appreciate
Speaker 1: you including me. Well, there you have it. Thank you
Speaker 1: so much to me Laura for joining me that conversation.
Speaker 1: Now it gave me a whole new appreciation for the
Speaker 1: complexity of Jan Levinson. I just love diving deep into
Speaker 1: the psychology of our characters. I just love it. And
Speaker 1: also snip snap, snip snap. Speaking of diving deep, next week,
Speaker 1: we are kicking off another mini deep dive, this time
Speaker 1: into perhaps the most important character on the office, the camera.
Speaker 1: That's right, We're going to discuss the camera as a
Speaker 1: character now. This is one of my absolute favorite things
Speaker 1: about our show, and I'm so excited to get into
Speaker 1: it even more with you guys. Until then, thank you
Speaker 1: all for listening, and well, have a great week. The
Speaker 1: of As Deep Dive is hosted and executive produced by
Speaker 1: me Brian Baumgartner, alongside our executive producer Lang Lee. Our
Speaker 1: senior producer is Tessa Kramer, our producer is Adam Massias,
Speaker 1: our associate producer is Emily Carr, and our assistant editor
Speaker 1: is Diego Tapia. My main man in the booth is
Speaker 1: Alec Moore. Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by
Speaker 1: my great friend Creed Bratton, and the episode was mixed
Speaker 1: by seth Olansky.