WEBVTT - Bad Santa with Alonso Duralde 0:00:00.960 --> 0:00:04.560 On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked if movies have women 0:00:04.680 --> 0:00:07.920 and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands 0:00:08.000 --> 0:00:12.480 or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy. Zephyn bast 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:15.960 start changing with the Bechdel Cast. 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:22.240 Hello, and welcome to Bad Bechdel Cast. I'm bad, Caitlin. 0:00:22.160 --> 0:00:25.720 And I'm bad Jamie. And this is our podcast. That's 0:00:25.960 --> 0:00:28.720 not I was. This is our bad podcast. This is 0:00:29.120 --> 0:00:33.160 this is our good podcast about bad movies about bad 0:00:33.640 --> 0:00:38.199 well you know, not every week, but. 0:00:36.240 --> 0:00:37.880 Uh, but a lot of theme. 0:00:37.920 --> 0:00:40.960 So this is our podcast where we take a look 0:00:41.000 --> 0:00:46.120 at your favorite movies using an intersectional feminist lens, using 0:00:46.120 --> 0:00:48.600 the Bechdel test as a jumping off point for a discussion. 0:00:48.640 --> 0:00:50.800 Which is going to be hilarious this week because I 0:00:50.800 --> 0:00:53.400 think the main interaction between women in this movie is 0:00:53.760 --> 0:00:58.880 lorlike Gilmore stealing Grandma's socks. I think that that is 0:00:59.080 --> 0:01:03.280 that is about the beginning, middle, and end, but we'll 0:01:03.280 --> 0:01:06.280 talk about it. It is the Bad Santa episode. I think, 0:01:06.319 --> 0:01:10.240 continuing the trend on the show recently of now that 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:12.640 we've been around for almost ten years, like movies that 0:01:12.720 --> 0:01:15.039 you would think we would have covered by now, but 0:01:15.160 --> 0:01:18.399 for whatever reason, it never quite wins in a poll. 0:01:18.480 --> 0:01:22.400 Whatever it is, we are covering Bad Santa. But first, Caitlin, 0:01:22.600 --> 0:01:24.880 what the hell is the Bechdel Test? So we can 0:01:25.120 --> 0:01:27.360 be certain this movie doesn't pass it, which it. 0:01:27.319 --> 0:01:31.280 Doesn't, certainly. It is a media metric created by our 0:01:31.760 --> 0:01:34.160 very best friend in the whole wide world, Alison Bechdel. 0:01:34.480 --> 0:01:39.040 We've met her twice. Yeah, different versions of the test. 0:01:39.240 --> 0:01:42.640 The one that we use is this, do two characters 0:01:42.760 --> 0:01:45.840 of a marginalized gender have names? Do they speak to 0:01:45.880 --> 0:01:49.040 each other? And is the conversation about something other than 0:01:49.080 --> 0:01:51.400 a man? And then we also like it when it's 0:01:51.440 --> 0:01:58.240 a narratively meaningful conversation and not just throw away dialogue. 0:01:58.000 --> 0:02:00.520 Which I don't even think. The saw the SoC thing 0:02:00.600 --> 0:02:02.320 is kind of just a side gag that doesn't really 0:02:02.320 --> 0:02:04.640 serve a narrative purpose, does it? I would say no, 0:02:05.000 --> 0:02:06.560 A lot of things in this movie don't serve a 0:02:06.640 --> 0:02:09.920 narrative purpose. It's very a vibes it's a vibes based film. 0:02:10.760 --> 0:02:14.680 But we so to bring on Bad Santa. We have 0:02:14.720 --> 0:02:18.120 an incredible guest who is an expert in this field, 0:02:18.240 --> 0:02:20.839 not in being Bad Santa, but in holiday movies specifically, 0:02:20.880 --> 0:02:21.799 so let's get him in here. 0:02:21.840 --> 0:02:25.880 Absolutely. He's a film critic, podcast host, and author of 0:02:26.000 --> 0:02:30.320 the book Have Yourself a Movie, Little Christmas. It's Alonso 0:02:30.400 --> 0:02:30.840 de Aldi. 0:02:31.240 --> 0:02:35.520 Hello, welcome, Thank you for having me. I once did 0:02:35.600 --> 0:02:37.760 a Comic Con panel with Alison Bechdel. 0:02:37.840 --> 0:02:40.560 Actually, oh, oh gosh, so she's your best friend too, that's 0:02:40.560 --> 0:02:41.080 how that works. 0:02:41.200 --> 0:02:45.239 Yes, yeah, you've spent probably a comparable amount of time 0:02:45.440 --> 0:02:51.160 the exactly we love her here obviously. Yes, I I'm 0:02:51.200 --> 0:02:54.680 so curious to hear about the book and updating the book. 0:02:54.720 --> 0:02:57.520 But to ask you a question I'm sure everyone does 0:02:57.560 --> 0:03:00.720 all the time. What is your favorite holiday movie? Oh? 0:03:00.800 --> 0:03:03.760 Man, it's hard for me to pick one. I mean, 0:03:04.200 --> 0:03:06.799 I think it's sort of inescapably. You know, It's a 0:03:06.800 --> 0:03:09.160 Wonderful Life is a movie that has become kind of 0:03:09.200 --> 0:03:12.600 a cornerstone of American cinema in general. That is also, 0:03:12.840 --> 0:03:15.560 you know, a Christmas movie. But so much of it 0:03:15.560 --> 0:03:17.760 depends on kind of what mood I'm in, Like if 0:03:17.800 --> 0:03:19.920 you look at the book, you know, I've got chapters 0:03:19.960 --> 0:03:23.800 about tearjerkers and about you know, horror movies and action films, 0:03:23.840 --> 0:03:26.919 So it sort of depends on you know, I think 0:03:26.960 --> 0:03:29.000 what's great about the idea of Christmas movies is that 0:03:29.080 --> 0:03:31.520 whatever you're in the mood for and whatever kind of 0:03:31.639 --> 0:03:35.160 film flows your boat, you will find something that dovetails 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:36.240 with you know, Christmas. 0:03:36.480 --> 0:03:37.000 It's true. 0:03:37.160 --> 0:03:39.560 It is such as you were saying that, I'm like, 0:03:39.560 --> 0:03:41.640 I actually don't. I had to think for a second 0:03:41.640 --> 0:03:43.920 to figure out my answer to that question. Caitlin, do 0:03:43.960 --> 0:03:45.360 you know what your favorite holiday movie is? 0:03:45.640 --> 0:03:48.600 Yes? I have two. Muppet Christmas Carol. 0:03:48.520 --> 0:03:51.480 That's tied for my first one too. Yeah, and Batman Returns. 0:03:51.880 --> 0:03:52.040 Right. 0:03:52.200 --> 0:03:55.720 Oh, okay, I think's Muppet Christmas Carol. And I don't 0:03:55.760 --> 0:03:57.440 know if this is an embarrassing one or not, but 0:03:57.600 --> 0:04:00.080 I love Jim Carrey Grinch. I love it. 0:04:00.280 --> 0:04:01.760 No, that's that's great. 0:04:01.760 --> 0:04:04.760 That's a good Okay, Okay, I'm sensing a tepid reception 0:04:04.880 --> 0:04:06.680 and the chat that's fun. That's fun. 0:04:06.920 --> 0:04:10.080 Not my favorite. It's hitting twenty five this year and 0:04:10.160 --> 0:04:11.720 they're actually doing I think it's going to be back 0:04:11.760 --> 0:04:13.800 in theaters and they're putting out like a four K. 0:04:13.880 --> 0:04:14.560 It's a whole thing. 0:04:14.920 --> 0:04:17.080 We saw it in theaters last year as well. I 0:04:17.080 --> 0:04:19.000 think like at the end of the day that movie 0:04:19.080 --> 0:04:21.120 came out when I was seven, and that is probably 0:04:21.120 --> 0:04:22.760 why I still love it so much. 0:04:23.240 --> 0:04:25.240 We have a recurring thing on Breakfast all Day called 0:04:25.320 --> 0:04:26.400 was it great? Or were you eight? 0:04:28.440 --> 0:04:33.039 Very much what this wants, which, weirdly, I think comes 0:04:33.040 --> 0:04:35.599 into play for a lot of people with the movie 0:04:35.640 --> 0:04:39.159 we were talking about today, Bad Santa. But before we 0:04:39.200 --> 0:04:43.119 get there, Alansa, what was it like revising the book 0:04:43.360 --> 0:04:45.120 and the re release? Tell us more about it? 0:04:45.440 --> 0:04:48.280 Well, you know, it's funny. I think if you have 0:04:48.400 --> 0:04:51.320 like a website or a podcast, you can constantly be 0:04:51.440 --> 0:04:53.839 updating it and bringing it, you know, up to speed. 0:04:54.320 --> 0:04:57.160 But once you've written a book, it's just dunk. It's there, 0:04:57.320 --> 0:04:59.520 you know, and it's sitting there and there's nothing you 0:04:59.560 --> 0:05:02.520 can do to change it. So pretty much from the 0:05:02.560 --> 0:05:05.039 moment the first edition came out back in twenty ten, 0:05:05.160 --> 0:05:07.000 I've been thinking in my head, Oh, I got to 0:05:07.000 --> 0:05:08.760 add this. I want to add this. I hope I 0:05:08.800 --> 0:05:10.400 can do this again so I can put in these 0:05:10.440 --> 0:05:14.000 other movies, and not just the many new films that 0:05:14.000 --> 0:05:18.040 have opened since twenty ten. But I'm constantly finding things 0:05:18.040 --> 0:05:21.880 that I had missed before, Like thanks to TCM, I 0:05:21.960 --> 0:05:24.680 was introduced to the whole world of Christmas Noir, which 0:05:24.720 --> 0:05:28.080 I had just completely missed the boat on. So now 0:05:28.120 --> 0:05:31.279 I've got films like Blast of Silence and Cash on Demand. 0:05:31.440 --> 0:05:35.080 You know, I got to circle back and put in 0:05:35.440 --> 0:05:37.440 So yeah, it was It was a treat because it 0:05:37.760 --> 0:05:40.920 sort of allowed the book to be a living document 0:05:41.000 --> 0:05:44.080 again that I could sort of update and talk about 0:05:44.080 --> 0:05:47.520 certain things, and you know, never mentioned the movie about 0:05:47.520 --> 0:05:49.440 the boy Wizard again and you know, all of that 0:05:49.480 --> 0:05:52.040 stuff to kind of bring it to twenty twenty five. 0:05:52.440 --> 0:05:52.880 Amazing. 0:05:52.920 --> 0:05:55.960 Oh that is amazing. Thank you for Like the second 0:05:56.040 --> 0:05:58.119 you said that sub genre, You're like, yeah, of course 0:05:58.120 --> 0:06:03.040 that exists, but occurred to me. I'm excited to get 0:06:03.080 --> 0:06:04.440 a copy of the book. I'm stoked. 0:06:04.520 --> 0:06:05.080 Oh, thank you. 0:06:05.480 --> 0:06:10.880 And we come to this place today for magic, and 0:06:10.920 --> 0:06:14.400 by that I mean a discussion of the two thousand 0:06:14.400 --> 0:06:17.440 and three movie Bad Santa, which I think is I 0:06:17.480 --> 0:06:20.120 do feel like Caitlin. Over the years we have covered 0:06:20.160 --> 0:06:22.479 truly a staggering amount of movies that came out in 0:06:22.480 --> 0:06:25.679 the year two thousand and three. Again, I think probably 0:06:25.720 --> 0:06:30.200 just a youth bias of the time. Alonza. We'll start 0:06:30.200 --> 0:06:33.600 with you, what is your history with the movie Bad Santa? 0:06:33.760 --> 0:06:36.359 And I guess at this point, the Bad Santa cinematic universe. 0:06:38.279 --> 0:06:40.440 Yeah, Weirdly, I can't remember if I saw it in 0:06:40.480 --> 0:06:43.200 theaters or not. Surely I must have, if only because 0:06:43.480 --> 0:06:46.080 I was a huge fan of Ghost World, which was 0:06:46.200 --> 0:06:50.560 Terry's Waggoff's previous film, which is a total Bechdel Test passer. 0:06:50.600 --> 0:06:53.120 I want to say it is as a non expert, 0:06:53.560 --> 0:06:56.680 but I don't remember vividly seeing it, but I know 0:06:56.800 --> 0:06:58.479 it was certainly when I when I wrote the book 0:06:58.520 --> 0:07:00.039 the first time around it it was one that I 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:03.880 knew had to go in there. And it's a film 0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:06.520 that I appreciate, and I get why people like it, 0:07:06.560 --> 0:07:09.120 and I get why people need that kind of Christmas 0:07:09.160 --> 0:07:11.960 movie in their diet in December, if they're just like 0:07:12.480 --> 0:07:15.040 oding on sugar plums and they need a little, you know, 0:07:15.480 --> 0:07:19.480 a little saltiness in there. I get the role that 0:07:19.520 --> 0:07:22.840 it plays in a balanced, you know, holiday diet. And 0:07:22.920 --> 0:07:27.400 I remember kind of not hating Bad Santa two as 0:07:27.480 --> 0:07:31.000 much as most people did. Not that I'm not going 0:07:31.040 --> 0:07:32.480 to die on the hill of that movie, but I 0:07:32.560 --> 0:07:34.040 was kinder to it, I think than a lot of 0:07:34.080 --> 0:07:37.520 other critics were. But generally speaking, these have been ones 0:07:37.560 --> 0:07:39.560 where there are a lot of films in the book 0:07:39.600 --> 0:07:41.000 that was like, I knew I had to include them 0:07:41.000 --> 0:07:44.240 because they have a following, because they have spawned you know, 0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:48.000 Christmas tree ornaments, and you know they get screened every year, 0:07:48.200 --> 0:07:51.720 you know your National Lampoon, Christmas vacations. You know. I 0:07:51.840 --> 0:07:54.000 was way too old for the home alone phenomenon. I 0:07:54.080 --> 0:07:55.920 was in my twenties when the first one came out, 0:07:56.200 --> 0:07:57.880 so I don't have the attachment to it, to the 0:07:57.880 --> 0:08:00.240 people who were you know, seven when it came out 0:08:00.560 --> 0:08:03.760 have but you know, I get why they're there. I 0:08:03.800 --> 0:08:05.600 get why people love them. And this is in that 0:08:05.640 --> 0:08:08.080 category of like if you like Bad Santa, I get it. 0:08:08.120 --> 0:08:11.120 I understand what it's bringing to you every December. 0:08:12.440 --> 0:08:15.520 Right, it is definitely I guess I'm like, where would 0:08:15.520 --> 0:08:18.440 I put I would put this in the same category 0:08:18.440 --> 0:08:21.000 as National landpun. I think I would also include Eight 0:08:21.040 --> 0:08:25.240 Crazy Nights in like the Edge Lord Christmas Cannon that 0:08:25.360 --> 0:08:27.000 this is firmly a part. 0:08:26.760 --> 0:08:32.000 Of Yeah, yeah, Winter Holiday, Like Edge Lord, highly problematic 0:08:32.559 --> 0:08:34.560 movie or subgenre. 0:08:34.920 --> 0:08:36.720 So like a lot of broad comedies, it doesn't age 0:08:36.760 --> 0:08:38.080 particularly well. 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:41.800 Right, I mean, weirdly a Christmas story. When it first 0:08:41.840 --> 0:08:44.840 came out in nine eighty three was designed to be 0:08:45.040 --> 0:08:47.920 kind of an anti Christmas Christmas movie. It was designed 0:08:47.920 --> 0:08:51.760 to poke holes in nostalgia and the idea of looking 0:08:51.760 --> 0:08:54.200 back on this sort of rosy Norman Rockwell past and 0:08:54.440 --> 0:08:56.640 sort of showing that it was actually a lot messier 0:08:56.679 --> 0:08:59.000 than we give it credit for. But over the years 0:08:59.040 --> 0:09:03.000 that movie has it's self become this object of nostalgia 0:09:03.080 --> 0:09:05.560 that I think it's kind of dulled the original intent 0:09:05.600 --> 0:09:07.040 of being sort of spiky. 0:09:07.720 --> 0:09:12.800 And I mean, I, as a self proclaimed grne, like 0:09:12.960 --> 0:09:15.800 the idea of a movie that subverts the notion that 0:09:16.040 --> 0:09:20.120 Christmas is this sweet, joyous time where everything is nice 0:09:20.160 --> 0:09:25.440 and wonderful, Like I don't like super saccerin holiday movies typically, 0:09:25.880 --> 0:09:28.000 so something like Bad Santa. 0:09:27.960 --> 0:09:30.040 In theory, you should be the target Audioce is. 0:09:30.040 --> 0:09:32.680 More aligned with what I would like. But just I 0:09:32.679 --> 0:09:35.680 guess to say my history with this movie, I saw 0:09:35.679 --> 0:09:38.880 it around the time it came out, and I hated 0:09:38.920 --> 0:09:42.240 it then and I hate it now. I did not 0:09:42.320 --> 0:09:44.040 think it was funny. I don't like the humor of 0:09:44.080 --> 0:09:46.800 this movie at all, for the same reason back then 0:09:46.920 --> 0:09:49.040 as I do like that's how problematic so many of 0:09:49.040 --> 0:09:50.960 the jokes are in this movie that even in two 0:09:50.960 --> 0:09:53.800 thousand and four or whenever I saw it, I was like, 0:09:54.240 --> 0:09:59.640 you can't say that, so so I really don't care 0:10:00.440 --> 0:10:04.319 for this movie. What about you, Jamie, what's your relationship 0:10:04.360 --> 0:10:04.680 with it? 0:10:05.120 --> 0:10:08.760 I'd never seen it before. I yeah, I'm also coming 0:10:08.800 --> 0:10:12.720 in as a hater. But it's a rich text. It 0:10:12.800 --> 0:10:16.160 is a rich text that we and there is I 0:10:16.160 --> 0:10:19.520 think a lot of like production information about this movie 0:10:19.559 --> 0:10:22.480 that I was kind of interested in that Like, once 0:10:22.520 --> 0:10:25.040 I learned it, I was like, oh, I guess this 0:10:25.400 --> 0:10:28.840 is like a worse Coen Brothers premise, Like if the 0:10:28.840 --> 0:10:31.960 Coen Brothers had actually written this movie, it could have 0:10:32.120 --> 0:10:35.080 maybe been not quite what it is, but like it 0:10:35.120 --> 0:10:37.560 was almost so many different movies that I found learning 0:10:37.559 --> 0:10:41.320 about the production history interesting. You know, is it shocking 0:10:41.400 --> 0:10:44.720 to find out the Weinsteins have fingerprints on this? Certainly not. 0:10:45.480 --> 0:10:47.040 But I remember, I mean I was too young to 0:10:47.080 --> 0:10:49.200 see it when it came out, But I also remember 0:10:49.240 --> 0:10:52.320 I remember them marketing very clearly because I was not 0:10:52.440 --> 0:10:54.520 too young to be watching Gilmore Girls, which I was 0:10:54.640 --> 0:10:57.439 very much watching in two thousand and three, and all 0:10:57.480 --> 0:11:01.840 of the children and their mothers watching Gilmore Girls. It 0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:04.760 was kind of a scandalous thing that Laura, like Gilmore 0:11:04.960 --> 0:11:09.320 is in Bad Santa licking Billy Bob Thornton on TV, 0:11:09.920 --> 0:11:13.760 and you're like, that's an upstanding citizen of Stars Harlow, Connecticut. 0:11:14.000 --> 0:11:16.440 Like she would not be caught dead saying fuck me 0:11:16.480 --> 0:11:19.760 Santa in a car. But that's the range that Lauren 0:11:19.800 --> 0:11:25.600 Graham has. I love Lauren Graham does exactly what would 0:11:25.760 --> 0:11:30.640 Rory Rory would be just Rory's home. You have to imagine, like, 0:11:30.720 --> 0:11:34.800 especially because her character exists in this like fuck void, 0:11:34.920 --> 0:11:38.880 as many women in broad comedies do that, I feel 0:11:38.920 --> 0:11:41.320 like you can be like, this is like Laura, like 0:11:41.360 --> 0:11:46.680 Gilmore on an absolute bender like Rory's home studying and 0:11:46.720 --> 0:11:51.199 she's fucking Santa. I just I understand now why Lauren 0:11:51.240 --> 0:11:53.800 Graham did this at this point in her career to 0:11:53.880 --> 0:11:56.520 be like, hey, I'm not just Laura like Gilmore, I 0:11:56.559 --> 0:12:00.280 can also fuck Santa. I also understand why I have 0:12:00.400 --> 0:12:02.760 sounded like a good idea to do this movie at 0:12:02.800 --> 0:12:04.520 the time, and it was successful, so you know, you 0:12:04.520 --> 0:12:09.080 could argue, and you know Bernie Mac smoking a cigarette 0:12:09.160 --> 0:12:13.360 and mixing a laxative. I was laughing. I wasn't laughing 0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:16.120 very much, but I was laughing. Then, Yeah, I did 0:12:16.120 --> 0:12:20.000 not like the movie. I did not, but I am 0:12:20.120 --> 0:12:23.199 interested to talk about it because it is like, it's 0:12:23.240 --> 0:12:28.080 an interesting subgenre that I like and I wish like 0:12:28.120 --> 0:12:30.440 I think there is like a version of this movie 0:12:30.520 --> 0:12:32.400 I would like or this premise. 0:12:32.440 --> 0:12:35.280 I guess there's a thing we get into with comedies 0:12:35.280 --> 0:12:38.240 of I think, certainly in this era. And yeah, I 0:12:38.240 --> 0:12:41.360 think Edge Lord is a fair descriptor, at least in 0:12:41.440 --> 0:12:44.880 terms of the audience, where I think that maybe people 0:12:44.960 --> 0:12:49.199 set out to portray behavior that was appalling and audiences 0:12:49.200 --> 0:12:52.120 were like, ooh yeah, like I'm down for this, Like 0:12:52.559 --> 0:12:55.920 the generations of dudes who had to be explained that 0:12:55.960 --> 0:12:59.880 Swingers was not a how to, that Swingers was not asked, 0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:03.040 but they took it that way anyway. And I think 0:13:03.080 --> 0:13:07.400 it's telling that the Cherry's Wygoff director's cut of this 0:13:07.480 --> 0:13:10.560 movie is the shortest of all the cuts, and it's 0:13:10.600 --> 0:13:13.560 the cut that makes the Billy Bob Thornton's character the 0:13:13.679 --> 0:13:17.400 least appealing, like everything, where he's sort of nice to 0:13:17.480 --> 0:13:20.360 the kid he takes out, so he is not interested 0:13:20.480 --> 0:13:24.960 in making his protagonist like appealing to the audience or 0:13:25.120 --> 0:13:27.960 somebody that we root for or empathize with. And but 0:13:28.200 --> 0:13:30.080 so I mean, yeah, I think you're right. A lot 0:13:30.080 --> 0:13:31.920 of it is on paper, and it's in the film, 0:13:31.960 --> 0:13:33.280 and it's in the text, and we have to deal 0:13:33.280 --> 0:13:35.160 with that. But I think there is also that thing 0:13:35.200 --> 0:13:39.440 where the audience decides, oh, hey, you know Freddy Krueger, 0:13:39.480 --> 0:13:43.120 he's so funny, you know, like that they they imbue 0:13:43.720 --> 0:13:45.680 a character who is to be a hero with heroic 0:13:45.720 --> 0:13:47.200 tendencies because they feel like it. 0:13:47.600 --> 0:13:49.960 Yeah, I was. That was another thing that I was 0:13:50.040 --> 0:13:53.920 really interested to talk about with you both, is how 0:13:53.960 --> 0:13:57.200 wildly different the various cuts of this movie seem to be. 0:13:57.520 --> 0:14:00.800 I watched a bad Er Santa, which I think is 0:14:00.840 --> 0:14:05.040 the longest version of this movie. Yes, and that is 0:14:05.080 --> 0:14:08.680 the version that somehow the movie Joker is going to 0:14:08.679 --> 0:14:11.960 become relevant in a moment because Todd Phillips was brought 0:14:11.960 --> 0:14:16.280 in to direct a couple of scenes Terry's Wygoff. So 0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:18.959 Terry's Wygoff. We've covered ghost World on the show. You 0:14:18.960 --> 0:14:21.600 can go to that episode. We've got takes on ghost World. 0:14:21.920 --> 0:14:25.160 But yeah, like I mean, he directs infrequently, and so 0:14:25.400 --> 0:14:27.440 it is it is kind of I didn't know he 0:14:27.480 --> 0:14:29.240 had directed this, and I was like, Wow, this really 0:14:29.240 --> 0:14:34.840 doesn't seem like the movie he directs, and it's clear that, 0:14:35.000 --> 0:14:37.760 like everyone had a slightly different creative vision here, like 0:14:38.120 --> 0:14:41.000 Terry's Wygoff wants to make a movie about a despicable 0:14:41.040 --> 0:14:44.240 person and does not want you to feel you know, 0:14:44.440 --> 0:14:47.480 bad for him, which I think is like most clearly 0:14:47.480 --> 0:14:51.040 illustrated by basically cutting out the relationship between him and 0:14:51.800 --> 0:14:56.240 young Roger his young Ward Thurman. Oh my god, wait 0:14:56.240 --> 0:14:57.480 did someone calls him Roger? 0:14:57.760 --> 0:14:59.040 Roger is Thurman's dad? 0:14:59.680 --> 0:15:05.440 Oh okay, see this okay, and also a monologue at 0:15:05.480 --> 0:15:07.200 the beginning of the movie. I don't think is in 0:15:07.200 --> 0:15:11.120 this wygof cut that basically gives you a framework for 0:15:11.440 --> 0:15:16.120 why bad Santa is the way he is, where it 0:15:16.160 --> 0:15:19.600 implies that he had an abusive upbringing and you know, 0:15:19.640 --> 0:15:23.520 you're given a framework that doesn't justify the behavior but 0:15:23.560 --> 0:15:26.760 contextualizes it. Terry's Wygoff has no interest in that. The 0:15:27.120 --> 0:15:29.760 theatrical cut, and then even more so, the longer cut, 0:15:30.640 --> 0:15:33.440 has more of an interest in doing what you know, 0:15:33.720 --> 0:15:36.920 like commercial movies do, which is give him a redemption arc, 0:15:37.120 --> 0:15:40.480 give him a you know, I gotta get this selevant 0:15:40.640 --> 0:15:44.600 to this little kid then blah blah blah, and you know, 0:15:44.800 --> 0:15:48.520 and I honestly don't know which version of it I that. 0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:51.960 I couldn't really decide. I'm like, I don't really want 0:15:52.000 --> 0:15:55.280 a redemption narrative for this guy, but I also like 0:15:55.400 --> 0:15:58.760 it's you know, zwygov Has will disagree, but I don't 0:15:58.800 --> 0:16:02.800 like watching a terrible person for eighty five uninterrupted minutes, 0:16:02.920 --> 0:16:06.040 nor I So I don't know. It's a It's a 0:16:06.080 --> 0:16:07.560 sticky wicket this one. 0:16:07.880 --> 0:16:12.040 It really is. And we'll get into it, but first 0:16:12.160 --> 0:16:15.240 let's take a quick break and then we'll come back 0:16:15.440 --> 0:16:28.920 for the recap. We're back, ho ho hoick. 0:16:29.080 --> 0:16:32.240 Quick question before we get into the recap. Do we 0:16:32.360 --> 0:16:35.000 think that John Ritter would want this movie to be 0:16:35.080 --> 0:16:42.000 dedicated to him? Oh? Rip. I love John Ritter, and 0:16:42.040 --> 0:16:44.520 I understand why it was dedicated to him, it's his 0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:46.720 last film appearance. But I'm like, I don't know. I 0:16:46.720 --> 0:16:48.560 don't know if I would be like, yeah, slap my 0:16:48.640 --> 0:16:50.720 name at the end. I want to be forever associated 0:16:50.720 --> 0:16:51.000 with this. 0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:54.040 Well in the same way that Clorus Leachman is in 0:16:54.080 --> 0:16:57.280 this movie but uncredited, and I have to imagine it's 0:16:57.320 --> 0:16:59.840 because she's like I don't want my name. 0:17:00.440 --> 0:17:02.120 Yeah, she's like, oh, I'm so sorry. I thought I 0:17:02.160 --> 0:17:03.440 was in a Cohen Brothers movie. 0:17:03.760 --> 0:17:04.320 I didn't. 0:17:05.160 --> 0:17:06.800 I feel like that's how a lot of these people 0:17:06.840 --> 0:17:10.000 get involved because it's a great cast, and some people 0:17:10.040 --> 0:17:12.280 think that they're going to be in a Terry's Wygoff movie. 0:17:12.320 --> 0:17:14.480 That's going to be allowed to be a Terry's Wygoff movie. 0:17:14.640 --> 0:17:16.439 Some people think they're in a Cohen Brothers movie, and 0:17:16.520 --> 0:17:19.360 kind of like they're in a Weinstein Brothers movie, which 0:17:19.359 --> 0:17:20.360 is the worst case scenario. 0:17:20.600 --> 0:17:22.520 I think there's an onion piece that's written from the 0:17:22.520 --> 0:17:24.320 point of view of somebody who had an episode of 0:17:24.320 --> 0:17:28.239 Ironica's Closet dedicated to them. So yeah, I think it's 0:17:28.280 --> 0:17:29.680 just one of those things where you never know when 0:17:29.680 --> 0:17:32.560 you're gonna go. So like any any project could be 0:17:32.640 --> 0:17:33.280 your last. 0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:36.879 That's a really that's a very harsh reality because I 0:17:36.880 --> 0:17:39.199 mean John Ritter was also I mean he was he 0:17:39.280 --> 0:17:41.439 was in his fifties. I feel like he, you know, 0:17:41.760 --> 0:17:43.760 if he knew he was living on borrow time, this 0:17:43.880 --> 0:17:46.119 maybe would not have been the one, but who knows, 0:17:46.200 --> 0:17:46.760 We'll never know. 0:17:48.359 --> 0:17:52.199 In any case, here's the recap of the movie. So 0:17:52.640 --> 0:17:57.520 we meet Willie played by Billy Bob Thornton. He works 0:17:57.600 --> 0:18:01.320 as a mall Santa, but he's not very good at 0:18:01.320 --> 0:18:06.360 his job. You might even say he's a bad Santa 0:18:06.480 --> 0:18:10.240 because he's mean to children. He gets drunk on the job, 0:18:10.480 --> 0:18:15.880 he pisses himself. He also works with Marcus played by 0:18:15.920 --> 0:18:20.360 Tony Cox, who is a little person who dresses up 0:18:20.680 --> 0:18:23.560 as an elf. And then we get a reveal that 0:18:23.600 --> 0:18:27.440 Willy and Marcus break into the mall after hours and 0:18:27.760 --> 0:18:32.520 that their Santa slash Elf jobs are just a cover 0:18:32.720 --> 0:18:36.240 so that they can steal stuff on Christmas Eve, where 0:18:36.440 --> 0:18:40.240 Marcus takes a bunch of merchandise. Willy is a safe 0:18:40.280 --> 0:18:43.919 cracker by trade and he steals a bunch of cash 0:18:44.080 --> 0:18:46.400 from the safe and we find out they've been doing 0:18:46.480 --> 0:18:50.360 this every Christmas Eve for the past seven or so years. 0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:55.080 And after they successfully pull off this heist, they go 0:18:55.119 --> 0:18:58.840 out to celebrate and Willie contemplates trying to get his 0:18:58.880 --> 0:19:01.720 life together. He's like, oh, maybe I'll stop drinking, maybe 0:19:01.760 --> 0:19:04.679 I'll open up business and settle down and get married. 0:19:05.400 --> 0:19:09.600 But he's forgetting that he's a bad Santa. And eleven 0:19:09.640 --> 0:19:14.879 months pass of him being a drunken degenerate. 0:19:14.480 --> 0:19:15.840 Bad off season Santa. 0:19:16.640 --> 0:19:19.159 Yeah, he's bad off season and off season. 0:19:19.480 --> 0:19:22.679 It is very I mean, he's a bad dude. But 0:19:22.760 --> 0:19:25.320 this man is just he's just so actively in despair. 0:19:25.440 --> 0:19:30.159 From frame one where you're just like it's I'm worried 0:19:30.160 --> 0:19:32.800 about him. I'm thinking of him like an uncle. 0:19:33.080 --> 0:19:35.480 There's a John Cassavetti's version of this movie where it's 0:19:35.480 --> 0:19:37.679 just about a guy who's an alcoholic who also is 0:19:37.680 --> 0:19:39.359 a Santa you know, yeah. 0:19:39.280 --> 0:19:41.640 Yeah, I mean it seems like that sounds like it's 0:19:41.680 --> 0:19:44.640 closer to what Terry's Waygoff wanted and they're like, oh no, 0:19:44.720 --> 0:19:46.919 we have to give him. He needs to be a 0:19:46.960 --> 0:19:48.720 father by the end of the movie. 0:19:49.000 --> 0:19:51.960 Like does he well also to speak to like the 0:19:51.960 --> 0:19:55.840 Coen Brothers conceit of it all because originally the Coen 0:19:55.880 --> 0:19:58.760 Brothers developed the concept for this movie, and then they 0:19:58.800 --> 0:20:02.000 brought on another writing team to write the script, but 0:20:02.040 --> 0:20:04.719 the Coen Brothers were still involved to some degree in 0:20:04.760 --> 0:20:07.960 the development of the script. It seems like they added 0:20:08.080 --> 0:20:11.840 some crass jokes seemingly not too far from what ends 0:20:11.920 --> 0:20:15.440 up in the movie, and then the Coen Brothers stay 0:20:15.440 --> 0:20:20.119 attached as executive producers, but any of the cleverness and 0:20:20.280 --> 0:20:24.199 tact that I think usually appears in a movie that 0:20:24.240 --> 0:20:28.200 the Coen Brothers are involved with, is mostly absent from 0:20:28.400 --> 0:20:32.679 Bad Santa. But like if this was maybe like The 0:20:32.720 --> 0:20:37.320 Big Lebowski but the dude Moonlight says as Santa Claus 0:20:37.400 --> 0:20:38.919 or something like that. So if it's like a character 0:20:39.080 --> 0:20:42.520 like the dude who is way more redeemable than this 0:20:43.200 --> 0:20:46.200 Willy character, like that's a movie I can get behind. 0:20:46.520 --> 0:20:51.160 But Willy is so I guess intentionally despicable, but also 0:20:51.359 --> 0:20:54.840 just by virtue of like having him be the protagonist, 0:20:55.760 --> 0:20:58.560