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Speaker 1: On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked if movies have women

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Speaker 1: and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands

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Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy. Zephyn bast

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Speaker 1: start changing with the Bechdel Cast.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Bad Bechdel Cast. I'm bad, Caitlin.

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Speaker 1: And I'm bad Jamie. And this is our podcast. That's

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Speaker 1: not I was. This is our bad podcast. This is

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Speaker 1: this is our good podcast about bad movies about bad

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Speaker 1: well you know, not every week, but.

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Speaker 2: Uh, but a lot of theme.

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Speaker 1: So this is our podcast where we take a look

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Speaker 1: at your favorite movies using an intersectional feminist lens, using

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Speaker 1: the Bechdel test as a jumping off point for a discussion.

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Speaker 1: Which is going to be hilarious this week because I

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Speaker 1: think the main interaction between women in this movie is

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Speaker 1: lorlike Gilmore stealing Grandma's socks. I think that that is

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Speaker 1: that is about the beginning, middle, and end, but we'll

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Speaker 1: talk about it. It is the Bad Santa episode. I think,

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Speaker 1: continuing the trend on the show recently of now that

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Speaker 1: we've been around for almost ten years, like movies that

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Speaker 1: you would think we would have covered by now, but

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Speaker 1: for whatever reason, it never quite wins in a poll.

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Speaker 1: Whatever it is, we are covering Bad Santa. But first, Caitlin,

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Speaker 1: what the hell is the Bechdel Test? So we can

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Speaker 1: be certain this movie doesn't pass it, which it.

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Speaker 2: Doesn't, certainly. It is a media metric created by our

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Speaker 2: very best friend in the whole wide world, Alison Bechdel.

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Speaker 2: We've met her twice. Yeah, different versions of the test.

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Speaker 2: The one that we use is this, do two characters

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Speaker 2: of a marginalized gender have names? Do they speak to

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Speaker 2: each other? And is the conversation about something other than

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Speaker 2: a man? And then we also like it when it's

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Speaker 2: a narratively meaningful conversation and not just throw away dialogue.

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Speaker 1: Which I don't even think. The saw the SoC thing

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Speaker 1: is kind of just a side gag that doesn't really

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Speaker 1: serve a narrative purpose, does it? I would say no,

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Speaker 1: A lot of things in this movie don't serve a

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Speaker 1: narrative purpose. It's very a vibes it's a vibes based film.

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Speaker 1: But we so to bring on Bad Santa. We have

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Speaker 1: an incredible guest who is an expert in this field,

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Speaker 1: not in being Bad Santa, but in holiday movies specifically,

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Speaker 1: so let's get him in here.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely. He's a film critic, podcast host, and author of

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Speaker 2: the book Have Yourself a Movie, Little Christmas. It's Alonso

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Speaker 2: de Aldi.

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Speaker 3: Hello, welcome, Thank you for having me. I once did

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Speaker 3: a Comic Con panel with Alison Bechdel.

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Speaker 2: Actually, oh, oh gosh, so she's your best friend too, that's

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Speaker 2: how that works.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, you've spent probably a comparable amount of time

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Speaker 1: the exactly we love her here obviously. Yes, I I'm

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Speaker 1: so curious to hear about the book and updating the book.

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Speaker 1: But to ask you a question I'm sure everyone does

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Speaker 1: all the time. What is your favorite holiday movie? Oh?

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Speaker 3: Man, it's hard for me to pick one. I mean,

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Speaker 3: I think it's sort of inescapably. You know, It's a

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Speaker 3: Wonderful Life is a movie that has become kind of

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Speaker 3: a cornerstone of American cinema in general. That is also,

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Speaker 3: you know, a Christmas movie. But so much of it

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Speaker 3: depends on kind of what mood I'm in, Like if

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Speaker 3: you look at the book, you know, I've got chapters

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Speaker 3: about tearjerkers and about you know, horror movies and action films,

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Speaker 3: So it sort of depends on you know, I think

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Speaker 3: what's great about the idea of Christmas movies is that

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Speaker 3: whatever you're in the mood for and whatever kind of

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Speaker 3: film flows your boat, you will find something that dovetails

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Speaker 3: with you know, Christmas.

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Speaker 2: It's true.

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Speaker 1: It is such as you were saying that, I'm like,

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Speaker 1: I actually don't. I had to think for a second

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Speaker 1: to figure out my answer to that question. Caitlin, do

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Speaker 1: you know what your favorite holiday movie is?

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Speaker 2: Yes? I have two. Muppet Christmas Carol.

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Speaker 1: That's tied for my first one too. Yeah, and Batman Returns.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: Oh, okay, I think's Muppet Christmas Carol. And I don't

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Speaker 1: know if this is an embarrassing one or not, but

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Speaker 1: I love Jim Carrey Grinch. I love it.

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Speaker 2: No, that's that's great.

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Speaker 1: That's a good Okay, Okay, I'm sensing a tepid reception

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Speaker 1: and the chat that's fun. That's fun.

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Speaker 3: Not my favorite. It's hitting twenty five this year and

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Speaker 3: they're actually doing I think it's going to be back

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Speaker 3: in theaters and they're putting out like a four K.

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Speaker 3: It's a whole thing.

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Speaker 1: We saw it in theaters last year as well. I

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Speaker 1: think like at the end of the day that movie

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Speaker 1: came out when I was seven, and that is probably

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Speaker 1: why I still love it so much.

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Speaker 3: We have a recurring thing on Breakfast all Day called

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Speaker 3: was it great? Or were you eight?

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Speaker 1: Very much what this wants, which, weirdly, I think comes

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Speaker 1: into play for a lot of people with the movie

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Speaker 1: we were talking about today, Bad Santa. But before we

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Speaker 1: get there, Alansa, what was it like revising the book

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Speaker 1: and the re release? Tell us more about it?

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, it's funny. I think if you have

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Speaker 3: like a website or a podcast, you can constantly be

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Speaker 3: updating it and bringing it, you know, up to speed.

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Speaker 3: But once you've written a book, it's just dunk. It's there,

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Speaker 3: you know, and it's sitting there and there's nothing you

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Speaker 3: can do to change it. So pretty much from the

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Speaker 3: moment the first edition came out back in twenty ten,

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Speaker 3: I've been thinking in my head, Oh, I got to

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Speaker 3: add this. I want to add this. I hope I

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Speaker 3: can do this again so I can put in these

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Speaker 3: other movies, and not just the many new films that

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Speaker 3: have opened since twenty ten. But I'm constantly finding things

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Speaker 3: that I had missed before, Like thanks to TCM, I

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Speaker 3: was introduced to the whole world of Christmas Noir, which

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Speaker 3: I had just completely missed the boat on. So now

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Speaker 3: I've got films like Blast of Silence and Cash on Demand.

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Speaker 3: You know, I got to circle back and put in

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Speaker 3: So yeah, it was It was a treat because it

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Speaker 3: sort of allowed the book to be a living document

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Speaker 3: again that I could sort of update and talk about

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Speaker 3: certain things, and you know, never mentioned the movie about

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Speaker 3: the boy Wizard again and you know, all of that

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Speaker 3: stuff to kind of bring it to twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 2: Amazing.

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Speaker 1: Oh that is amazing. Thank you for Like the second

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Speaker 1: you said that sub genre, You're like, yeah, of course

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Speaker 1: that exists, but occurred to me. I'm excited to get

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Speaker 1: a copy of the book. I'm stoked.

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Speaker 3: Oh, thank you.

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Speaker 1: And we come to this place today for magic, and

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Speaker 1: by that I mean a discussion of the two thousand

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Speaker 1: and three movie Bad Santa, which I think is I

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Speaker 1: do feel like Caitlin. Over the years we have covered

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Speaker 1: truly a staggering amount of movies that came out in

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Speaker 1: the year two thousand and three. Again, I think probably

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Speaker 1: just a youth bias of the time. Alonza. We'll start

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Speaker 1: with you, what is your history with the movie Bad Santa?

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Speaker 1: And I guess at this point, the Bad Santa cinematic universe.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Weirdly, I can't remember if I saw it in

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Speaker 3: theaters or not. Surely I must have, if only because

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Speaker 3: I was a huge fan of Ghost World, which was

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Speaker 3: Terry's Waggoff's previous film, which is a total Bechdel Test passer.

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Speaker 3: I want to say it is as a non expert,

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Speaker 3: but I don't remember vividly seeing it, but I know

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Speaker 3: it was certainly when I when I wrote the book

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Speaker 3: the first time around it it was one that I

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Speaker 3: knew had to go in there. And it's a film

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Speaker 3: that I appreciate, and I get why people like it,

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Speaker 3: and I get why people need that kind of Christmas

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Speaker 3: movie in their diet in December, if they're just like

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Speaker 3: oding on sugar plums and they need a little, you know,

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Speaker 3: a little saltiness in there. I get the role that

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Speaker 3: it plays in a balanced, you know, holiday diet. And

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Speaker 3: I remember kind of not hating Bad Santa two as

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Speaker 3: much as most people did. Not that I'm not going

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Speaker 3: to die on the hill of that movie, but I

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Speaker 3: was kinder to it, I think than a lot of

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Speaker 3: other critics were. But generally speaking, these have been ones

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Speaker 3: where there are a lot of films in the book

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Speaker 3: that was like, I knew I had to include them

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Speaker 3: because they have a following, because they have spawned you know,

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Speaker 3: Christmas tree ornaments, and you know they get screened every year,

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Speaker 3: you know your National Lampoon, Christmas vacations. You know. I

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Speaker 3: was way too old for the home alone phenomenon. I

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Speaker 3: was in my twenties when the first one came out,

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Speaker 3: so I don't have the attachment to it, to the

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Speaker 3: people who were you know, seven when it came out

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Speaker 3: have but you know, I get why they're there. I

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Speaker 3: get why people love them. And this is in that

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Speaker 3: category of like if you like Bad Santa, I get it.

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Speaker 3: I understand what it's bringing to you every December.

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Speaker 1: Right, it is definitely I guess I'm like, where would

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Speaker 1: I put I would put this in the same category

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Speaker 1: as National landpun. I think I would also include Eight

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Speaker 1: Crazy Nights in like the Edge Lord Christmas Cannon that

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Speaker 1: this is firmly a part.

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Speaker 2: Of Yeah, yeah, Winter Holiday, Like Edge Lord, highly problematic

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Speaker 2: movie or subgenre.

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Speaker 1: So like a lot of broad comedies, it doesn't age

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Speaker 1: particularly well.

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Speaker 3: Right, I mean, weirdly a Christmas story. When it first

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Speaker 3: came out in nine eighty three was designed to be

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Speaker 3: kind of an anti Christmas Christmas movie. It was designed

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Speaker 3: to poke holes in nostalgia and the idea of looking

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Speaker 3: back on this sort of rosy Norman Rockwell past and

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Speaker 3: sort of showing that it was actually a lot messier

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Speaker 3: than we give it credit for. But over the years

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Speaker 3: that movie has it's self become this object of nostalgia

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Speaker 3: that I think it's kind of dulled the original intent

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Speaker 3: of being sort of spiky.

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Speaker 2: And I mean, I, as a self proclaimed grne, like

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Speaker 2: the idea of a movie that subverts the notion that

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Speaker 2: Christmas is this sweet, joyous time where everything is nice

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Speaker 2: and wonderful, Like I don't like super saccerin holiday movies typically,

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Speaker 2: so something like Bad Santa.

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Speaker 3: In theory, you should be the target Audioce is.

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Speaker 2: More aligned with what I would like. But just I

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Speaker 2: guess to say my history with this movie, I saw

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Speaker 2: it around the time it came out, and I hated

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Speaker 2: it then and I hate it now. I did not

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Speaker 2: think it was funny. I don't like the humor of

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Speaker 2: this movie at all, for the same reason back then

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Speaker 2: as I do like that's how problematic so many of

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Speaker 2: the jokes are in this movie that even in two

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Speaker 2: thousand and four or whenever I saw it, I was like,

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Speaker 2: you can't say that, so so I really don't care

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Speaker 2: for this movie. What about you, Jamie, what's your relationship

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Speaker 2: with it?

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Speaker 1: I'd never seen it before. I yeah, I'm also coming

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Speaker 1: in as a hater. But it's a rich text. It

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Speaker 1: is a rich text that we and there is I

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Speaker 1: think a lot of like production information about this movie

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Speaker 1: that I was kind of interested in that Like, once

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Speaker 1: I learned it, I was like, oh, I guess this

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Speaker 1: is like a worse Coen Brothers premise, Like if the

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Speaker 1: Coen Brothers had actually written this movie, it could have

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Speaker 1: maybe been not quite what it is, but like it

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Speaker 1: was almost so many different movies that I found learning

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Speaker 1: about the production history interesting. You know, is it shocking

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Speaker 1: to find out the Weinsteins have fingerprints on this? Certainly not.

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Speaker 1: But I remember, I mean I was too young to

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Speaker 1: see it when it came out, But I also remember

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Speaker 1: I remember them marketing very clearly because I was not

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Speaker 1: too young to be watching Gilmore Girls, which I was

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Speaker 1: very much watching in two thousand and three, and all

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Speaker 1: of the children and their mothers watching Gilmore Girls. It

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Speaker 1: was kind of a scandalous thing that Laura, like Gilmore

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Speaker 1: is in Bad Santa licking Billy Bob Thornton on TV,

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Speaker 1: and you're like, that's an upstanding citizen of Stars Harlow, Connecticut.

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Speaker 1: Like she would not be caught dead saying fuck me

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Speaker 1: Santa in a car. But that's the range that Lauren

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Speaker 1: Graham has. I love Lauren Graham does exactly what would

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Speaker 1: Rory Rory would be just Rory's home. You have to imagine, like,

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Speaker 1: especially because her character exists in this like fuck void,

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Speaker 1: as many women in broad comedies do that, I feel

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Speaker 1: like you can be like, this is like Laura, like

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Speaker 1: Gilmore on an absolute bender like Rory's home studying and

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Speaker 1: she's fucking Santa. I just I understand now why Lauren

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Speaker 1: Graham did this at this point in her career to

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Speaker 1: be like, hey, I'm not just Laura like Gilmore, I

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Speaker 1: can also fuck Santa. I also understand why I have

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Speaker 1: sounded like a good idea to do this movie at

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Speaker 1: the time, and it was successful, so you know, you

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Speaker 1: could argue, and you know Bernie Mac smoking a cigarette

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Speaker 1: and mixing a laxative. I was laughing. I wasn't laughing

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Speaker 1: very much, but I was laughing. Then, Yeah, I did

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Speaker 1: not like the movie. I did not, but I am

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Speaker 1: interested to talk about it because it is like, it's

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Speaker 1: an interesting subgenre that I like and I wish like

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Speaker 1: I think there is like a version of this movie

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Speaker 1: I would like or this premise.

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Speaker 3: I guess there's a thing we get into with comedies

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Speaker 3: of I think, certainly in this era. And yeah, I

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Speaker 3: think Edge Lord is a fair descriptor, at least in

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Speaker 3: terms of the audience, where I think that maybe people

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Speaker 3: set out to portray behavior that was appalling and audiences

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Speaker 3: were like, ooh yeah, like I'm down for this, Like

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Speaker 3: the generations of dudes who had to be explained that

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Speaker 3: Swingers was not a how to, that Swingers was not asked,

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Speaker 3: but they took it that way anyway. And I think

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Speaker 3: it's telling that the Cherry's Wygoff director's cut of this

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Speaker 3: movie is the shortest of all the cuts, and it's

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Speaker 3: the cut that makes the Billy Bob Thornton's character the

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Speaker 3: least appealing, like everything, where he's sort of nice to

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Speaker 3: the kid he takes out, so he is not interested

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Speaker 3: in making his protagonist like appealing to the audience or

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Speaker 3: somebody that we root for or empathize with. And but

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Speaker 3: so I mean, yeah, I think you're right. A lot

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Speaker 3: of it is on paper, and it's in the film,

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Speaker 3: and it's in the text, and we have to deal

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Speaker 3: with that. But I think there is also that thing

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Speaker 3: where the audience decides, oh, hey, you know Freddy Krueger,

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Speaker 3: he's so funny, you know, like that they they imbue

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Speaker 3: a character who is to be a hero with heroic

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Speaker 3: tendencies because they feel like it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I was. That was another thing that I was

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Speaker 1: really interested to talk about with you both, is how

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Speaker 1: wildly different the various cuts of this movie seem to be.

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Speaker 1: I watched a bad Er Santa, which I think is

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Speaker 1: the longest version of this movie. Yes, and that is

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Speaker 1: the version that somehow the movie Joker is going to

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Speaker 1: become relevant in a moment because Todd Phillips was brought

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Speaker 1: in to direct a couple of scenes Terry's Wygoff. So

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Speaker 1: Terry's Wygoff. We've covered ghost World on the show. You

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Speaker 1: can go to that episode. We've got takes on ghost World.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, like I mean, he directs infrequently, and so

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Speaker 1: it is it is kind of I didn't know he

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Speaker 1: had directed this, and I was like, Wow, this really

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Speaker 1: doesn't seem like the movie he directs, and it's clear that,

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Speaker 1: like everyone had a slightly different creative vision here, like

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Speaker 1: Terry's Wygoff wants to make a movie about a despicable

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Speaker 1: person and does not want you to feel you know,

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Speaker 1: bad for him, which I think is like most clearly

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Speaker 1: illustrated by basically cutting out the relationship between him and

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Speaker 1: young Roger his young Ward Thurman. Oh my god, wait

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Speaker 1: did someone calls him Roger?

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Speaker 3: Roger is Thurman's dad?

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Speaker 1: Oh okay, see this okay, and also a monologue at

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Speaker 1: the beginning of the movie. I don't think is in

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Speaker 1: this wygof cut that basically gives you a framework for

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Speaker 1: why bad Santa is the way he is, where it

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Speaker 1: implies that he had an abusive upbringing and you know,

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Speaker 1: you're given a framework that doesn't justify the behavior but

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Speaker 1: contextualizes it. Terry's Wygoff has no interest in that. The

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Speaker 1: theatrical cut, and then even more so, the longer cut,

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Speaker 1: has more of an interest in doing what you know,

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Speaker 1: like commercial movies do, which is give him a redemption arc,

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Speaker 1: give him a you know, I gotta get this selevant

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Speaker 1: to this little kid then blah blah blah, and you know,

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Speaker 1: and I honestly don't know which version of it I that.

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Speaker 1: I couldn't really decide. I'm like, I don't really want

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Speaker 1: a redemption narrative for this guy, but I also like

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Speaker 1: it's you know, zwygov Has will disagree, but I don't

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Speaker 1: like watching a terrible person for eighty five uninterrupted minutes,

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Speaker 1: nor I So I don't know. It's a It's a

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Speaker 1: sticky wicket this one.

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Speaker 2: It really is. And we'll get into it, but first

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Speaker 2: let's take a quick break and then we'll come back

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Speaker 2: for the recap. We're back, ho ho hoick.

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Speaker 1: Quick question before we get into the recap. Do we

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Speaker 1: think that John Ritter would want this movie to be

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Speaker 1: dedicated to him? Oh? Rip. I love John Ritter, and

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Speaker 1: I understand why it was dedicated to him, it's his

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Speaker 1: last film appearance. But I'm like, I don't know. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if I would be like, yeah, slap my

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Speaker 1: name at the end. I want to be forever associated

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Speaker 1: with this.

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Speaker 2: Well in the same way that Clorus Leachman is in

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Speaker 2: this movie but uncredited, and I have to imagine it's

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Speaker 2: because she's like I don't want my name.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, she's like, oh, I'm so sorry. I thought I

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Speaker 1: was in a Cohen Brothers movie.

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Speaker 3: I didn't.

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Speaker 1: I feel like that's how a lot of these people

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Speaker 1: get involved because it's a great cast, and some people

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Speaker 1: think that they're going to be in a Terry's Wygoff movie.

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Speaker 1: That's going to be allowed to be a Terry's Wygoff movie.

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Speaker 1: Some people think they're in a Cohen Brothers movie, and

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Speaker 1: kind of like they're in a Weinstein Brothers movie, which

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Speaker 1: is the worst case scenario.

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Speaker 3: I think there's an onion piece that's written from the

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Speaker 3: point of view of somebody who had an episode of

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Speaker 3: Ironica's Closet dedicated to them. So yeah, I think it's

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Speaker 3: just one of those things where you never know when

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Speaker 3: you're gonna go. So like any any project could be

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Speaker 3: your last.

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Speaker 1: That's a really that's a very harsh reality because I

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Speaker 1: mean John Ritter was also I mean he was he

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Speaker 1: was in his fifties. I feel like he, you know,

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Speaker 1: if he knew he was living on borrow time, this

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Speaker 1: maybe would not have been the one, but who knows,

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Speaker 1: We'll never know.

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Speaker 2: In any case, here's the recap of the movie. So

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Speaker 2: we meet Willie played by Billy Bob Thornton. He works

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Speaker 2: as a mall Santa, but he's not very good at

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Speaker 2: his job. You might even say he's a bad Santa

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Speaker 2: because he's mean to children. He gets drunk on the job,

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Speaker 2: he pisses himself. He also works with Marcus played by

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Speaker 2: Tony Cox, who is a little person who dresses up

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Speaker 2: as an elf. And then we get a reveal that

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Speaker 2: Willy and Marcus break into the mall after hours and

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Speaker 2: that their Santa slash Elf jobs are just a cover

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Speaker 2: so that they can steal stuff on Christmas Eve, where

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Speaker 2: Marcus takes a bunch of merchandise. Willy is a safe

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Speaker 2: cracker by trade and he steals a bunch of cash

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Speaker 2: from the safe and we find out they've been doing

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Speaker 2: this every Christmas Eve for the past seven or so years.

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Speaker 2: And after they successfully pull off this heist, they go

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Speaker 2: out to celebrate and Willie contemplates trying to get his

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Speaker 2: life together. He's like, oh, maybe I'll stop drinking, maybe

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Speaker 2: I'll open up business and settle down and get married.

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Speaker 2: But he's forgetting that he's a bad Santa. And eleven

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Speaker 2: months pass of him being a drunken degenerate.

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Speaker 1: Bad off season Santa.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he's bad off season and off season.

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Speaker 1: It is very I mean, he's a bad dude. But

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Speaker 1: this man is just he's just so actively in despair.

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Speaker 1: From frame one where you're just like it's I'm worried

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Speaker 1: about him. I'm thinking of him like an uncle.

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Speaker 3: There's a John Cassavetti's version of this movie where it's

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Speaker 3: just about a guy who's an alcoholic who also is

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Speaker 3: a Santa you know, yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it seems like that sounds like it's

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Speaker 1: closer to what Terry's Waygoff wanted and they're like, oh no,

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Speaker 1: we have to give him. He needs to be a

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Speaker 1: father by the end of the movie.

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Speaker 2: Like does he well also to speak to like the

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Speaker 2: Coen Brothers conceit of it all because originally the Coen

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Speaker 2: Brothers developed the concept for this movie, and then they

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Speaker 2: brought on another writing team to write the script, but

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Speaker 2: the Coen Brothers were still involved to some degree in

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Speaker 2: the development of the script. It seems like they added

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Speaker 2: some crass jokes seemingly not too far from what ends

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Speaker 2: up in the movie, and then the Coen Brothers stay

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Speaker 2: attached as executive producers, but any of the cleverness and

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Speaker 2: tact that I think usually appears in a movie that

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Speaker 2: the Coen Brothers are involved with, is mostly absent from

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Speaker 2: Bad Santa. But like if this was maybe like The

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Speaker 2: Big Lebowski but the dude Moonlight says as Santa Claus

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Speaker 2: or something like that. So if it's like a character

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Speaker 2: like the dude who is way more redeemable than this

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Speaker 2: Willy character, like that's a movie I can get behind.

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Speaker 2: But Willy is so I guess intentionally despicable, but also

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Speaker 2: just by virtue of like having him be the protagonist,

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Speaker 2: and like this is the character we're following and laughing at.

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Speaker 2: We're laughing at all the joke he says, and like

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Speaker 2: so many people love this movie for the wrong reasons,

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Speaker 2: like you were saying, Alonzo. So like it's just it's

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Speaker 2: so hard to get behind for me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: But anyway, So about a year passes and then Willie

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Speaker 2: gets a call from Marcus. It's that time of year again,

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Speaker 2: and they show up at a department store in Phoenix, Arizona,

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Speaker 2: in their Santa and Elf costumes. Willy is once again

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Speaker 2: horrible at his job. He's drunk, he's cruel to the children,

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Speaker 2: he swears in front of his boss played by John Ritter,

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Speaker 2: who goes to the security manager of the store, Bernie Mack,

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Speaker 2: and asks him to keep an eye on Willie.

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Speaker 1: Bernie Mack is funny in everything. Yes, he's just never

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Speaker 1: not amazing.

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Speaker 2: I know, he's too good for this movie.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Then we meet a child named Thurman Merman. Although we

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Speaker 2: won't learn his name for a really long time.

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Speaker 1: It's so it's I clocked it at least in the

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Speaker 1: Batter Santa cut. It's thirty two minutes in where you

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Speaker 1: get a name for this character, which doesn't feel like

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Speaker 1: a strategic reveal. It just I kept writing down child

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Speaker 1: question mark because it just takes a really long time

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Speaker 1: to learn what his name is.

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Speaker 2: Well, the idea is that Willie doesn't bother to find

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Speaker 2: out his name for we know, and then finally he's

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Speaker 2: like toward the end of the movie, he's looking at

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Speaker 2: Thurman's report card and he's like, Thurman, who is that?

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Speaker 1: Is that you? Merman?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so we don't really know what his name is

433
00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:43,240
Speaker 2: for a long time, but I'll call him Thurman because

434
00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:48,080
Speaker 2: that's his name. He's played by Brett Kelly.

435
00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:52,960
Speaker 1: Who reprises the role in Bad Santa too, and also

436
00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:57,480
Speaker 1: has a really funny paragraph in his Wikipedia page I

437
00:22:57,480 --> 00:22:59,720
Speaker 1: would like to share. Oh please, I don't know who

438
00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:02,080
Speaker 1: has it in for this guy and included this on

439
00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:05,720
Speaker 1: his Wikipedia page. He was a contestant on the October

440
00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:08,840
Speaker 1: twenty third, twenty twenty four episode of Jeopardy. He ended

441
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:12,320
Speaker 1: Double Jeopardy with zero dollars, thus did not qualify for

442
00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:16,119
Speaker 1: Final Jeopardy and therefore finished in third place. Someone hates

443
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:19,040
Speaker 1: this guy? Why would you put that on that? It

444
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:22,560
Speaker 1: is such a short Wikipedia page, and that's one of

445
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:23,560
Speaker 1: the things I have.

446
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:26,160
Speaker 3: I have a nice Brett Kelly thing to add to.

447
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:30,480
Speaker 3: So he appears in another Christmas comedy that I like

448
00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:34,560
Speaker 3: quite a bit called Unaccompanied Minors. Oh yes, Paul fig directed,

449
00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:39,640
Speaker 3: and Lewis Black plays the sort of harried airport manager

450
00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:42,560
Speaker 3: in that movie. And he actually said, he goes, I

451
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:44,240
Speaker 3: took the movie because I wanted to work with the

452
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:45,480
Speaker 3: kid from Bad Santa.

453
00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:47,480
Speaker 1: Oh that's really sweet.

454
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:49,639
Speaker 3: So you actually told him on set, Yeah, you're the

455
00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:51,959
Speaker 3: reason I'm here, kid, I wanted to work with you.

456
00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:55,000
Speaker 3: So you know, that's that's a Brett Kelly positive.

457
00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:59,440
Speaker 1: True, That's that must have been so exciting. God, I mean,

458
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:03,159
Speaker 1: it's he he's adorable in this movie, He's not, you know,

459
00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:05,159
Speaker 1: he's he's just a boy.

460
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:14,520
Speaker 2: I know. And he is frequently bullied by other kids by.

461
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:21,360
Speaker 1: Literally like bullied dot like jpeg, like like he's just some.

462
00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:27,120
Speaker 2: Kid, yeah bully TM. He's also bullied by Willie when

463
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,439
Speaker 2: Thurman comes into Santa's workshop at the department store and

464
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 2: sits on Willy's lap, and Thurman asks him a bunch

465
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:37,840
Speaker 2: of questions about being Santa because he thinks that Willy

466
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 2: is the real Santa Claus and is enamored by him.

467
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:48,200
Speaker 2: Later that night, Willie meets a bartender named Sue I think,

468
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:52,439
Speaker 2: but that's the Lauren Graham character, and she has a

469
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:56,919
Speaker 2: Santa kink, so she buys him a few drinks and

470
00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,919
Speaker 2: then has sex with him in his car in the parking.

471
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:03,840
Speaker 1: Fuck me Santa, Fuck me Santa, Fuck me Santa. Correct,

472
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:08,000
Speaker 1: and then we are introduced to for the little screen

473
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,560
Speaker 1: time she has. All of it is just completely like irrational.

474
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 1: I'm so curious at what point this love story became

475
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,600
Speaker 1: like I'm curious if this is a studio mandated romance,

476
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:22,800
Speaker 1: because it just wasn't. I don't know, like her whole

477
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:24,320
Speaker 1: thing where it's like, okay, it's one thing to have

478
00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:27,479
Speaker 1: a Santa cank, Fine, okay, But then at the end

479
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:30,240
Speaker 1: she's like, I like you, I think you're You're like, no,

480
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:30,960
Speaker 1: you don't.

481
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:34,679
Speaker 2: Come on, what do you like about him? He is

482
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 2: the most despicable person imaginable.

483
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 1: He's mean, any stinks.

484
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:43,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, anyways, I know, we'll talk about it. But so

485
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:45,960
Speaker 2: they have sex in the car, and then right after this,

486
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:51,760
Speaker 2: a man who was at the bar aggressively approaches Willie.

487
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 2: And it's unclear exactly what is going on here, but

488
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:57,760
Speaker 2: we do know that it's homophobic.

489
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:00,399
Speaker 1: You're like, oh, we we see this person again. No, no, no,

490
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:02,960
Speaker 1: we will not see this person again. He's here to

491
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:05,880
Speaker 1: be a I don't know plot device.

492
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:10,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so he attacks Willie, but Thurman intervenes and

493
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:14,480
Speaker 2: kind of saves Willy. So he gives Thurman a ride home,

494
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 2: where he lives in a big house with his grandma

495
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:23,960
Speaker 2: played by Chloris Leachman, who seems completely oblivious to her surroundings.

496
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:28,240
Speaker 2: And Thurman again is incredibly naive and he still thinks

497
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:32,880
Speaker 2: Willy is the real Santa Claus. So Willi takes advantage

498
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:38,080
Speaker 2: of this situation and steals money and a car from them,

499
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 2: and Thurman's just like, whatever you need, Santa. Then Willy

500
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:48,040
Speaker 2: continues to be bad Santa. He has sex with a

501
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 2: woman in the dressing room at work, and he gets

502
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:54,719
Speaker 2: caught by John Ritter, but he manages to weasel his

503
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:59,159
Speaker 2: way out of getting fired. Then he thinks maybe a

504
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 2: cop is snoop around his motel room, and he worries

505
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,959
Speaker 2: that the police are onto him and Marcus for their robberies.

506
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:07,960
Speaker 1: I did think it was very funny. I don't know

507
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:09,639
Speaker 1: if this was a joke or just like how the

508
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,720
Speaker 1: scene ended up. But he's like loudly making a phone

509
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 1: call about this like basically hotel. He's like, hey, I

510
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:21,720
Speaker 1: think they're onto us, yeah, which is just like, ah,

511
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 1: movies are fun.

512
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:26,480
Speaker 2: Also, Octavia Spencer's in this scene and we're like.

513
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:30,560
Speaker 1: Oh, they really be the Octavier. The early roles of

514
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:33,480
Speaker 1: Octavia Spencer like she deserves.

515
00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 3: Peace, seven pounds, seven pounds.

516
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:39,920
Speaker 1: It's gracious. And then she came back for the sequel

517
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,480
Speaker 1: and we're just like, she's too nice. She's too nice.

518
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 2: I did watch the sequel to prep for this.

519
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 1: Okay, yes, and thoughts.

520
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 2: I have regrets. I'll share my thoughts when we get

521
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:53,160
Speaker 2: to the discussion.

522
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 1: But okay, I did not watch. I did not watch

523
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:56,280
Speaker 1: the sequel.

524
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 3: Also, by the way, speaking of Gilmore Girls, Alex Borstein

525
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:00,640
Speaker 3: pops up in here as well, yes.

526
00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:04,680
Speaker 1: Which also feels like a two thousand and three comedy requisite,

527
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 1: like she has to be there and I'm always happy

528
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 1: to see her.

529
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 2: This is like peak mad TV era.

530
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's Lois for crying out loud. I'm always

531
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 1: happy to see her.

532
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:20,120
Speaker 2: Okay. So Willy's like, oh no, the cops are onto us.

533
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,639
Speaker 2: So he decides to go back to Thurman's house and

534
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:26,640
Speaker 2: hide out there for a while, and Thurman is all

535
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 2: too happy about this. He keeps asking more questions about

536
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:34,160
Speaker 2: Santa and the North Pole and the reindeer and everything else.

537
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 2: And sometimes it seems like Willy and Thurman are hanging

538
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 2: out because they're like playing checkers and stuff. But mostly

539
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:48,960
Speaker 2: Willy just treats Thurman horribly and has Lauren Graham's character

540
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 2: over for sex in one of.

541
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 1: I think the most baffling seeds. It just I don't

542
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:58,680
Speaker 1: know the Lauren Graham character, like you have you gotta

543
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 1: laugh or what can you do? But this scene where

544
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 1: we've established because she is a woman. She loves kids

545
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 1: and she wants kids, and you know, true of a

546
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 1: lot of women, but I think it's a default mode

547
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:16,440
Speaker 1: for women in movies. You know, she loves kids, but

548
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 1: she's totally fine with being caught having sex in front

549
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 1: of a kid. Does not make any effort to move,

550
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 1: She just sort of passively watches the conversation as if

551
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 1: the writer for baby It's just it just pisses me.

552
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,920
Speaker 1: And then at the end she's like, Wow, he's such

553
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 1: a great kid. I was like, what is this? What

554
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:39,000
Speaker 1: is this? Does she like kids or not?

555
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 2: She also sees Willie be horrible too, thermin and says.

556
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:50,400
Speaker 1: Nothing, and she's like, I can fix him, question Mark.

557
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 1: But ultimately she like, you know, the reasons that Willy changes,

558
00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:58,959
Speaker 1: at least in the theatrical cut of this movie, have

559
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,240
Speaker 1: little to nothing to do with her. They have almost

560
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:06,200
Speaker 1: everything to do with Thurman Merman, which I'm not upset about,

561
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 1: but like, also, you're just like, what is the function

562
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 1: of this character other than this is a comedy and

563
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 1: therefore we need a hot woman in it.

564
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 2: Right. I should have mentioned also that I believe the

565
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 2: version that I watched and am doing the recap on

566
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:24,720
Speaker 2: is the theatrical cut. Okay, so anyway, we see Willy

567
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 2: and Thurman hanging out. There's also a scene where Thurman

568
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 2: badly cuts his hand and Willy kind of helps him

569
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 2: and kind of shows a little concern and maybe Willy

570
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 2: is growing and changing question mark. He even cooks dinner

571
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 2: for Thurman and his grandmother. But then Thurman gets beaten

572
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 2: up by his bullies and he goes to Willy for help,

573
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:51,960
Speaker 2: and Willy's like, well, what do you want me to

574
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 2: do about it? Leave me alone? So I guess he

575
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 2: still has some growing and learning to do. Meanwhile, John

576
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 2: Richard has asked Bernie Mack if he can help him

577
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:09,200
Speaker 2: get Willy fired. So Bernie Mack starts doing some digging

578
00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 2: on Willie and Marcus, and he tells John Ritter's character

579
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 2: that their track record is clean, but he knows actually

580
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:23,480
Speaker 2: that they are thieves, and he approaches Willy and Marcus

581
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 2: to blackmail them and be like, give me half and

582
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 2: I won't turn you in.

583
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 1: See, And now it's feeling like a Coen Brothers movie again.

584
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:35,960
Speaker 2: Right right, And they have no choice but to agree

585
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 2: to this. The next day, Willie shows up to work

586
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 2: as Santa Drunker than ever he makes a scene. It

587
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 2: seems like he has hit rock bottom, especially when he

588
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 2: attempts suicide. But then Thurman comes in and Willy sees

589
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 2: that his face is bruised, so Willy decides not to

590
00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 2: end his life, and instead he beats up the children

591
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 2: who have been bullying Thurman because Willy is feeling parental

592
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 2: towards Thurman now or something. So now Willie feels like

593
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:15,000
Speaker 2: he has helped Thurman and he feels good about himself,

594
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:19,360
Speaker 2: and he gets Marcus to help him teach Thurman how

595
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 2: to defend himself, and so he's like doing all of

596
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:26,840
Speaker 2: these what he thinks are nice gestures. And then a

597
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 2: little while later, Thurman gives Willie the Christmas present he

598
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 2: made for him, a wooden pickle, which is how he

599
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,120
Speaker 2: cut his hand in the previous scene.

600
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:40,800
Speaker 1: Literally gives a phallic item with his blood in it,

601
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 1: and you're like, huh, okay, wow, the themes are so subtle.

602
00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 1: I don't know, but.

603
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 2: Willy seems really touched by this.

604
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 1: Yeah.

605
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 2: Then Thurman reveals that he has not received any presence

606
00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 2: from Santa for the past couple years, and he thinks

607
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:04,960
Speaker 2: maybe it's because he's a no good loser and Willy

608
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 2: is like, well, look kid, I'm not Santa. In fact,

609
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,720
Speaker 2: there is no Santa, and Thurman is like, well, I

610
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 2: know that. I just thought maybe you'd want to give

611
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:18,920
Speaker 2: me a present because we're friends. And Willy's like, oh

612
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 2: damn so true.

613
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 1: And you can tell that same was added in because

614
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:26,080
Speaker 1: shortly after Thurban just goes back to calling him Santa

615
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:27,920
Speaker 1: and trading him like he's real Santa.

616
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:35,560
Speaker 2: Right then, Willy has Lauren Graham's character over to spend

617
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:39,600
Speaker 2: Christmas eve Day with him and Thurman and they do

618
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:46,160
Speaker 2: lots of Christmas e things. Meanwhile, Marcus and his girlfriend

619
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:49,720
Speaker 2: who we see occasionally, but don't worry, we won't learn

620
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:50,720
Speaker 2: anything about.

621
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:52,240
Speaker 3: Her for your wife, I'm not sure.

622
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, some Romanta partner.

623
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 1: I also there was a shot in at least I

624
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:02,239
Speaker 1: think this might differ tween cuts. There's a shot that

625
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 1: I was like, I guess confused by in the longer

626
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 1: in Batter Santa, where I thought she was gonna like

627
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:13,880
Speaker 1: egg on my face. I thought she's gonna do something

628
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:17,400
Speaker 1: that was her idea, but it turned out I was wrong.

629
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:20,840
Speaker 1: But there there is a scene where you know they're

630
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:26,200
Speaker 1: in the mal cafeteria and Tony Cox calls Bad Santa

631
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 1: a scumbag. His girlfriend is there, and then she's like

632
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:32,880
Speaker 1: taking notes as Billy Bob Thornton is making a confession

633
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 1: about the details of what's being done, and I was like,

634
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:37,760
Speaker 1: is she gonna blackmail him? Is she gonna? Is she gonna,

635
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 1: you know, go off on her own and do something?

636
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:44,800
Speaker 1: But then she doesn't, so never mind, So never mind

637
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:47,920
Speaker 1: she does A woman almost had an idea, but then

638
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 1: it was like, oh wait, I misunderstood.

639
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 2: No note, that would never happen in a movie, Jamie. Sorry.

640
00:34:56,200 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 2: So Marcus and his partner killed Bernie mack by run.

641
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:05,359
Speaker 1: I did not see that come over with their van

642
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:09,440
Speaker 1: kind of signs style that I associate that kind of

643
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:10,440
Speaker 1: death was signed.

644
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:15,200
Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, yeah, And I guess the idea is that

645
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:19,880
Speaker 2: they won't have to give him half of whatever they steal.

646
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:25,120
Speaker 2: And then Marcus and Willie get to work on their

647
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 2: usual robbing the department store on Christmas Eve, and Willie

648
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:32,799
Speaker 2: cracks the safe and then he's like, oh wait, one

649
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:36,400
Speaker 2: last thing, and he grabs the stuffed elephant toy that

650
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:41,840
Speaker 2: Thurman mentioned he wanted. But then Marcus pulls a gun

651
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 2: on Willie.

652
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:47,120
Speaker 1: The heel turn of Marcus is so like this ten

653
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 1: minutes is a journey for I was like, this is

654
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 1: not who I understood this man to be. Wow.

655
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's almost like the screenwriting is not very.

656
00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:02,400
Speaker 1: Good, written by forty five different people. Yeah, kind of fun, but.

657
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:05,000
Speaker 2: But Willy's like, I can't count on you anymore. You're

658
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 2: drunk and unreliable Willie. And then he's about to shoot

659
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 2: him and take all the money for himself, but then

660
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:17,759
Speaker 2: a bunch of deis X security guards pop out and

661
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:22,120
Speaker 2: Willie manages to get away, and he's hell bent on

662
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:26,000
Speaker 2: giving Thurman the Christmas gift, so he goes back to

663
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:29,120
Speaker 2: Thurman's house with the stuffed elephant, but the cops are

664
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 2: chasing him and they shoot Willy on the stoop of

665
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:37,680
Speaker 2: the house, but Willy survives somehow, even though he had

666
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:38,960
Speaker 2: like eight bullet wounds.

667
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 1: Does he die in this Terry's wyof cut?

668
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,440
Speaker 3: I oh, I don't think he dies on any of them,

669
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:45,960
Speaker 3: but it's been a while since I've seen it, so

670
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:46,880
Speaker 3: don't quote me on that.

671
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:47,879
Speaker 1: Interesting.

672
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:49,800
Speaker 2: It would be wild if he died in that cut.

673
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:52,879
Speaker 2: And then there's still somehow a sequel where he's.

674
00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 3: Good point.

675
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:57,920
Speaker 1: Well, Terry's Wagoff also had nothing to do with the sequel,

676
00:36:57,920 --> 00:36:59,839
Speaker 1: and he also says that they kind of wait, he's

677
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:02,839
Speaker 1: something that was kind of bitchy that I thought was

678
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 1: funny in a piece I read it. He said something

679
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:09,520
Speaker 1: like I will not be seeing it, the best of

680
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:12,399
Speaker 1: luck to all involved, kind of thing. He said, I'd

681
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 1: like to see the sequel Shore. So far, I've only

682
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:16,239
Speaker 1: seen the trailer. Tony Cox looks hilarious in it. The

683
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:18,759
Speaker 1: rest not so promising, but I wish of luck.

684
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:22,040
Speaker 4: I was like, wow, bitchy it well, and he had

685
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:24,520
Speaker 4: to sorry, just real quick. He had to fight for

686
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:28,400
Speaker 4: Tony Cox. The Wine scenes did not they were. They

687
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,080
Speaker 4: wanted like Mickey Rourke or something, you know, to play

688
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 4: that role.

689
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 3: So they didn't. They didn't appreciate the Tony Cox casting.

690
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:37,240
Speaker 3: They really didn't appreciate the Brett Kelly casting. They wanted

691
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:40,919
Speaker 3: like a sort of Zach Efferny Disney kid, and so

692
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:42,920
Speaker 3: that they actually came up with a kid who looks

693
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:46,120
Speaker 3: like a genuine, you know, kid on kind of nerd. Yeah,

694
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:49,480
Speaker 3: a regular looking kid. Uh, you know. These were not

695
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 3: the not the movie the Wine Scenes had in mind,

696
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:54,320
Speaker 3: and they obviously wanted something softer and kinder and gentler,

697
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:56,839
Speaker 3: which is why I did not want to give them.

698
00:37:57,120 --> 00:37:59,720
Speaker 1: It's interesting because it feels like, yeah, this is uh.

699
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:02,480
Speaker 1: I always find like production notes on movies like this interesting,

700
00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:04,440
Speaker 1: where it's like there's so many cooks in the kitchen

701
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 1: and everyone wants something that is like pretty wildly different,

702
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:12,239
Speaker 1: and so it ends up so it ends up being

703
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:13,960
Speaker 1: like a little bit of all of it, and it

704
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 1: just is is a weird thing, and you're just like, well,

705
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:19,560
Speaker 1: what version of this? So you just have to be like,

706
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:23,120
Speaker 1: what version of this movie would I have liked to see?

707
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 3: Choose your adventure?

708
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:29,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, to go back to the sequel really quick. That

709
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:34,480
Speaker 2: movie was directed by Mark Waters of Mister Mengl Mean

710
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 2: Girl's Fame, Freaky Friday Fame, another like huge departure from

711
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:44,920
Speaker 2: what he normally does, Like why are all these guys

712
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:48,799
Speaker 2: directing bad Santa movies when they had previously done like

713
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 2: movies about teen girls, Like.

714
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:54,919
Speaker 1: Well, I think it's it's weird, it's a pivot. It's

715
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,160
Speaker 1: not my least favorite pivot. I feel like my least

716
00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:01,479
Speaker 1: favorite pivot was like twenty nineteen ish, when every guy

717
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 1: who directed a broad comedy like an offensive broad comedy

718
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:06,719
Speaker 1: of the early two thousands was like I'm making a

719
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:08,719
Speaker 1: me too movie and I was like, no, you're not.

720
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 1: Why are we letting you do that?

721
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:15,160
Speaker 3: Well, I remember in the two thousands it was a

722
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:19,960
Speaker 3: definite like queer Indie to mainstream teen girl pipeline, Like

723
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 3: you know, Jim Fall went from Trick to the Lizzie

724
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:28,120
Speaker 3: McGuire movie, and you know, Tommy o'hager did get over it,

725
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:32,080
Speaker 3: and the guy who did kissing Jessica Stein did like,

726
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:34,520
Speaker 3: you know, legally Blonde two. Like that was that was

727
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 3: the segue.

728
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 1: It's interesting, Yeah, like these bizarro pipelines that you're like,

729
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 1: I guess it made sense to them. I don't know

730
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:45,239
Speaker 1: really well in the same way that like, for at least,

731
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:46,920
Speaker 1: I feel like it's kind of winding down now. But

732
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 1: it's like, if you made a really good A twenty

733
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:52,320
Speaker 1: four movie, you would then make a really horrible Marvel movie.

734
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:55,520
Speaker 3: What did the director of Minari just do? It was

735
00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:59,359
Speaker 3: something like it's like not a fast and furious movie,

736
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:02,279
Speaker 3: but something like that. We're like, really, oh wait, that's

737
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:04,960
Speaker 3: you're okay. Oh Twisters, Twisters?

738
00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:07,320
Speaker 1: Oh I kind of liked Twisters.

739
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:09,239
Speaker 3: I gotta say no, it was fun, but it was

740
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:11,279
Speaker 3: just like, this is who we're Okay. I mean, I

741
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:13,640
Speaker 3: guess you understand small town America, you.

742
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:18,040
Speaker 1: Know, like Barry Barry Jenkins mufassa like that. Yeah, that

743
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 1: kind of good example. It is weird, it is. I

744
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:24,600
Speaker 1: don't know why it feels particularly weird for Terry's wagoff

745
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:26,640
Speaker 1: to have made this jump, but it does.

746
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:32,760
Speaker 3: He's just I think again, and I think we're grappling

747
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:35,640
Speaker 3: with the movie they thought they were making and the

748
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:37,480
Speaker 3: movie that different people wanted to make. In the movie

749
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:40,040
Speaker 3: that wounds up happening, and I can see a through

750
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:44,160
Speaker 3: line of Terry's wygof and the kind of sort of

751
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:50,000
Speaker 3: archly bitter observational humor of Ghosts World, and of his

752
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:51,799
Speaker 3: documentary work. I mean, this is the guy who did

753
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:54,279
Speaker 3: the Crumb documentary, Let's not forget. I can see that

754
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:59,160
Speaker 3: segueing into a version of Bad Santa, which is bleakly

755
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 3: funny and no way trying to make its lead character huggable.

756
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:06,160
Speaker 3: And I think he's up against the Cohen brothers and

757
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:10,319
Speaker 3: the Weinstein brothers having different visions entirely, and so we're

758
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:14,400
Speaker 3: left with this sort of mulligan stew of everybody's different

759
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:18,319
Speaker 3: flavor profile thrown in, and then it comes down to like, well,

760
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:19,400
Speaker 3: who's cut are you watching?

761
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:23,200
Speaker 1: You know? Yeah, it's it's interesting. I mean, I guess

762
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:25,920
Speaker 1: it's hard to know where to start with this movie.

763
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:28,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, well there's a couple of minutes left.

764
00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:31,719
Speaker 1: Oh god, Oh yeah, there's e Bilog right right.

765
00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:35,439
Speaker 2: Right, Yes, So he survives all these gunshot wounds. Willy

766
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:40,840
Speaker 2: does and recovers kind of off screen in a hospital,

767
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:45,840
Speaker 2: but we're seeing Thurman at home. He's opening a gift

768
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:50,279
Speaker 2: from Willy as well as a letter which explains that

769
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:53,360
Speaker 2: Willy is off the hook for the crimes he committed

770
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:57,640
Speaker 2: because the cops shouldn't have opened fired on an unarmed

771
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 2: Santa and because he rated out Marcus or something.

772
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:02,920
Speaker 3: I don't know.

773
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:07,640
Speaker 2: I was like really barely following this point. But then

774
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:11,880
Speaker 2: there's a final beat of the movie where Thurman's bully

775
00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:17,920
Speaker 2: shows up to harass him again and Thurman, per Willie's

776
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:24,040
Speaker 2: fatherly guidance, kicks the bully in the nuts the end

777
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 2: Merry Christmas.

778
00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:28,440
Speaker 1: They're like, yeah, I guess that that should happen in

779
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 1: this movie at some point. I guess they make you

780
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:32,319
Speaker 1: work for it.

781
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:35,600
Speaker 2: So that's the movie. Let's take another quick break and

782
00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:47,280
Speaker 2: we'll come back to discuss.

783
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:53,600
Speaker 1: We're back, okay, really quick. I found a hopefully this

784
00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:57,439
Speaker 1: IMDb user. It seems like they were thorough, but this

785
00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:00,439
Speaker 1: is my source. There is an IMDb us or who

786
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:03,560
Speaker 1: wrote out all of the differences between the three versions

787
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:06,279
Speaker 1: of this movie. Oh wow, okay, so thank you, thank you,

788
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:09,960
Speaker 1: thank you so much. So that was how I sort

789
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:14,040
Speaker 1: of started figuring out what I saw versus what actually

790
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:16,080
Speaker 1: happens in the theatrical cut, which I guess we have

791
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:19,000
Speaker 1: to sort of take his cannon, but I think that

792
00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:22,200
Speaker 1: he so just to read the end of the director's cut,

793
00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:24,359
Speaker 1: I think we are to believe that he's dead. All

794
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:26,279
Speaker 1: scenes of Willy trying to teach the kid to stand

795
00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:29,240
Speaker 1: up for himself, including the boxing scene which Terry's Weggoff

796
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:32,880
Speaker 1: didn't even direct, are removed. The car death scene is

797
00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:34,960
Speaker 1: the same as on the unrated version, which I think

798
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:37,080
Speaker 1: is just like more violent.

799
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:41,440
Speaker 2: The Bernie mac One no no, the bad Santa car chase,

800
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:44,759
Speaker 2: oh okay, when he dies and alternate car chase scene.

801
00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:46,719
Speaker 1: Also, Willy does not say this is Christmas and the

802
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:49,040
Speaker 1: kids getting as fucking present, because this is the version

803
00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:52,239
Speaker 1: with no moral. The ending is changed to the kid

804
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:57,240
Speaker 1: scrubbing Willy's blood off the front porch, so I think

805
00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:00,960
Speaker 1: he is cooked in the Terry's Wagoff for which is

806
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:04,120
Speaker 1: like a version that it wouldn't be my favorite movie.

807
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 1: He's not my favorite director, but like, I think that

808
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:09,920
Speaker 1: that at least has like there's a vision there, you know,

809
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:13,480
Speaker 1: to like, here is this despicable piece of shit. I

810
00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:16,160
Speaker 1: would be surprised if all of the not that there

811
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:18,480
Speaker 1: would be a lack of offensive jokes in that version,

812
00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:22,400
Speaker 1: but there is such a commercial version of these jokes

813
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 1: that I think we hear. I don't know, it's just

814
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:29,239
Speaker 1: it's puzzling. Where should we start because this is obviously

815
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 1: I mean, we've talked about movies like this on the

816
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:34,120
Speaker 1: show before. This is a movie whose objective is to

817
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:37,120
Speaker 1: be offensive to as many people as possible, Like that

818
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:41,000
Speaker 1: is part of why this movie exists. So it's not

819
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:45,000
Speaker 1: shocking that it happens, but it is uh yeah, I

820
00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:48,400
Speaker 1: mean it again not my favorite and also still no

821
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:51,560
Speaker 1: matter when that kind of movie comes out, it's very

822
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:55,920
Speaker 1: reflective of like what is considered shocking and also but

823
00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:59,000
Speaker 1: like not so shocking that you can't do a huge

824
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:01,799
Speaker 1: you know, commerci movie around it that I think would

825
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:02,560
Speaker 1: be very different now.

826
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:05,720
Speaker 3: Well, I think, for instance, the whole you know, Lauren

827
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:07,920
Speaker 3: Graham has a Santa Kink thing is a thing that

828
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:11,000
Speaker 3: we hadn't seen in a Christmas movie up to that point.

829
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:16,080
Speaker 3: And so just having it there, having her yell that out,

830
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:19,160
Speaker 3: and having that be the thing that drives her character

831
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:23,279
Speaker 3: was you know, enough of a novelty that that was like, well,

832
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:26,719
Speaker 3: we're gonna do that, of course, you know. And does

833
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 3: it say much for her character? Does it make sense

834
00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:31,440
Speaker 3: in the larger context of who she's supposed to be

835
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:34,560
Speaker 3: and how her relationship with him grows over the course

836
00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:38,040
Speaker 3: of the film. I mean not really. They didn't. Yeah,

837
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:41,080
Speaker 3: they didn't give much thought to that, But I mean, yeah,

838
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:43,200
Speaker 3: it is a thing where when you saw that add

839
00:45:43,239 --> 00:45:45,040
Speaker 3: on Gilmore Girls in two thousand and three, it was

840
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:48,960
Speaker 3: shocking because you'd never heard anybody say that before, much

841
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:50,480
Speaker 3: less America's Sweetheart, you know.

842
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:54,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's I guess if we're starting with her,

843
00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:56,919
Speaker 1: I mean, it doesn't even feel like a particularly long

844
00:45:56,960 --> 00:46:00,560
Speaker 1: conversation because it's like, I don't think I know enough

845
00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:03,200
Speaker 1: about her character to know if her character changes at

846
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:06,560
Speaker 1: all throughout the movie. It seems like kind of from

847
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:09,000
Speaker 1: the jump, she has a Santa kink, She's gonna show

848
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:11,319
Speaker 1: up every once in a while out of context. Why

849
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:12,640
Speaker 1: does she have no one in her life to spend

850
00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:14,080
Speaker 1: Christmas with? We don't know, we don't care.

851
00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:17,440
Speaker 2: Why does she completely ignore all the times in which

852
00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:20,879
Speaker 2: Willie says something horrible, does something.

853
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:23,680
Speaker 1: Horrible in front of a child, but she loves children?

854
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:26,600
Speaker 3: Like if she has a Santa kink, wouldn't this be

855
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:28,799
Speaker 3: like a busy time of year for her? Like, wouldn't she,

856
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:33,240
Speaker 3: you know, she'd have something lined up for her Decembers right, gorgeous?

857
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:36,320
Speaker 1: She should be making the round Like why Santa?

858
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:38,360
Speaker 3: I think it's safe to say like this. The women

859
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:42,000
Speaker 3: in this movie are essentially an afterthoughts in terms of

860
00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:45,759
Speaker 3: their their participation in the story and in the you know,

861
00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:50,520
Speaker 3: overall character arcs of the men, like they're set dressing.

862
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:54,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, each woman is basically some caricature of a person

863
00:46:55,280 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 2: where you have like Marcus's girlfriend or wife or whatever

864
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:03,920
Speaker 2: partner played by Lauren Tom she uh, I don't even

865
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:06,279
Speaker 2: know if we learn her name in the movie, like

866
00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:07,400
Speaker 2: her character's name.

867
00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:11,520
Speaker 1: And she's like she's so accomplished and you're.

868
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:12,880
Speaker 3: Just she's Lois.

869
00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:16,320
Speaker 2: Yes, oh okay, okay, she's her characters name is Lowis.

870
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:19,319
Speaker 1: She's Lowess And now it doesn't make any sense, but

871
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:21,839
Speaker 1: like she's in the Joy Luck Club. She's like a

872
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:24,279
Speaker 1: big stage actor. Like I was just like, I hope

873
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:26,840
Speaker 1: that they paid her well for this because this is

874
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:27,600
Speaker 1: beneath her.

875
00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:31,600
Speaker 2: I don't imagine they did, but we can hope. But yeah,

876
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:36,000
Speaker 2: I mean, like it's her character is almost presented as

877
00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:41,200
Speaker 2: Marcus's sidekick, like she kind of helps with the robberies sometimes,

878
00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:44,360
Speaker 2: like she seems to be the getaway driver maybe, but

879
00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:48,359
Speaker 2: like why isn't she more integrated into the like the

880
00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:53,040
Speaker 2: robbery crew or not that I'm like, but I'm also like,

881
00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:54,839
Speaker 2: well maybe women should steal more.

882
00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:56,759
Speaker 1: But I mean, if we're gonna have a robbery crew,

883
00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:58,720
Speaker 1: let's get her involved, let's get her involved.

884
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:03,240
Speaker 2: But mostly her character is there to display a series

885
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:07,400
Speaker 2: of racist stereotypes and that's pretty much.

886
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:10,960
Speaker 1: It, yeah for her. Yeah, I mean whatever we could.

887
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:13,160
Speaker 1: Cinema sends this to death. But like in the in

888
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:17,400
Speaker 1: the like logic of I I don't know why Marcus

889
00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:22,120
Speaker 1: is it, like she's my main conspirator, Like why is

890
00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:24,719
Speaker 1: Beds I know that you need I guess for this

891
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:28,360
Speaker 1: scheme to work, you need a Santa. But again, why

892
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:31,239
Speaker 1: this Santa? The same I'm asking the same question as

893
00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:33,840
Speaker 1: the Lauren Graham. Why this Santa?

894
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:36,399
Speaker 3: Well, because he's a safe cracker. I think that's I mean,

895
00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:39,319
Speaker 3: he's not a Santa who is a safe cracker. He's

896
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:42,920
Speaker 3: a safe cracker who pretends Santa to get inside. And

897
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:45,799
Speaker 3: I think Lois is mainly there to sort of give

898
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:49,960
Speaker 3: Marcus a shopping list of specific consumer items that she

899
00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:53,000
Speaker 3: wants him to take from the department store while while

900
00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:55,320
Speaker 3: Marcus is draining the safe of the cas.

901
00:48:55,280 --> 00:49:00,520
Speaker 1: Because women be shopping, maybe they truly be. And yeah,

902
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:03,000
Speaker 1: I guess it's like I don't think it would have

903
00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:05,200
Speaker 1: changed things very much to have her like a little

904
00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:09,680
Speaker 1: more actively involved in those schemes. And I also feel

905
00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:11,320
Speaker 1: like she's well, let me know what you think. I

906
00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:15,520
Speaker 1: also feel like she's kind of there to make Marcus

907
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:19,480
Speaker 1: seem like a better person, Like she serves kind of

908
00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:24,760
Speaker 1: another function where bad Santa, he can't hold down a relationship,

909
00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:27,799
Speaker 1: he's a mess, blah blah blah. Marcus says explicitly at

910
00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:31,399
Speaker 1: one point, like I am in a monogamous relationship. I'm

911
00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:33,840
Speaker 1: very happy blah blah blah. And it's like she I

912
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:37,239
Speaker 1: think she's there as set dressing. She's there to be

913
00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:41,239
Speaker 1: this broad you know, stereotype, and she's also there to

914
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:44,960
Speaker 1: like make us feel a certain way about Marcus. Like

915
00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:48,000
Speaker 1: everything about her has very little to do with her.

916
00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:50,760
Speaker 1: She's which is the story of women in broad comedies

917
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:53,200
Speaker 1: for the most part, it's just like she's there to

918
00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:56,800
Speaker 1: tell you something about this guy, for sure. So I

919
00:49:58,080 --> 00:50:01,520
Speaker 1: don't know, there's another there's you know, we don't need

920
00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:04,080
Speaker 1: to go shot for shot, but there's you know a

921
00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:10,040
Speaker 1: lot of very leering POV bad Santa gazing on women's bodies.

922
00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:14,040
Speaker 1: Often that's how we meet women characters is from the

923
00:50:14,040 --> 00:50:17,200
Speaker 1: bottom up. It is his POV. But again there's like

924
00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:20,799
Speaker 1: it's not commenting on anything. If we then go on

925
00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:23,840
Speaker 1: to not get to know this woman at all and

926
00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:28,080
Speaker 1: she's just like ugh, or she's like I like that. Yeah.

927
00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:31,920
Speaker 3: The fact that he is he finds sort of plus

928
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:34,719
Speaker 3: size women appealing, I think is the movie treats as

929
00:50:34,719 --> 00:50:38,360
Speaker 3: being as funny as Lauren Graham having a Santa Fetters ca.

930
00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:43,759
Speaker 3: Yeah totally, yes, yes, I can right, yeah, No.

931
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:46,440
Speaker 1: That's played as a joke and then bringing Octavia Spencer

932
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:49,480
Speaker 1: into it, it just makes it even worse. Leave her

933
00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:50,320
Speaker 1: out of it.

934
00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:53,359
Speaker 2: My takeaway from her involvement in the story. So, she

935
00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:57,680
Speaker 2: plays a sex worker named Opal, and like you mentioned, Jamie,

936
00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:00,560
Speaker 2: she's in the sequel for some reason, she's just.

937
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:02,600
Speaker 1: Too nice for her own good. She's in a lot

938
00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:06,120
Speaker 1: of like weirdly bad movies. It seems like to do

939
00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:07,200
Speaker 1: a favor to a friend.

940
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:12,319
Speaker 2: But the way that Willy is presented, basically it's like

941
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:17,239
Speaker 2: everything that Willy does or anyone who he's involved with

942
00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:22,680
Speaker 2: or whatever, everything everything associated with him is bad because

943
00:51:22,719 --> 00:51:25,919
Speaker 2: he's Bad Santa, and so him knowing Opal, I feel

944
00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:28,600
Speaker 2: like this movie is sort of is anti sex work

945
00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:31,960
Speaker 2: just by virtue of like she knows him and everyone

946
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:35,520
Speaker 2: that he knows is bad, and then she's in one

947
00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:38,239
Speaker 2: quick scene and then we never see or hear from

948
00:51:38,239 --> 00:51:38,720
Speaker 2: her again.

949
00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:41,480
Speaker 1: Yeah. There's also I think that this is only in

950
00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:44,920
Speaker 1: the Badder Santa cut which makes sense because it feels

951
00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:49,120
Speaker 1: very like why is this here. There is a cutaway

952
00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:52,759
Speaker 1: scene towards the beginning during these like eleven last months

953
00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:55,880
Speaker 1: where Bad Santa is spending all his Bad Santa money

954
00:51:56,200 --> 00:52:00,879
Speaker 1: where he brings sex worker home and then just kind

955
00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:03,480
Speaker 1: of like beerates her for a while and then the

956
00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:05,799
Speaker 1: phone rings and it's Marcus and he's like, guess what,

957
00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:08,520
Speaker 1: it's November. And then we cut to that and you're like, well,

958
00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:11,640
Speaker 1: I'm glad they caught that out, but it was I

959
00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:15,000
Speaker 1: think kind of solidifies your your thinking there where there's

960
00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:18,440
Speaker 1: another scene with I think a sex worker who's somehow

961
00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:21,759
Speaker 1: characterized even less we really just meet her and then

962
00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:26,520
Speaker 1: she's told that she smells and she sucks. So, yeah,

963
00:52:26,560 --> 00:52:29,719
Speaker 1: this is a movie written by so like getting into

964
00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:32,400
Speaker 1: the production a little bit and then we'll definitely go

965
00:52:32,520 --> 00:52:34,320
Speaker 1: back to the characters. There's a lot to talk about,

966
00:52:34,440 --> 00:52:38,759
Speaker 1: but just so Terry's Wygoff was set to direct this.

967
00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:42,919
Speaker 1: It was written by Glenn Fakara and John Recua, who

968
00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:45,840
Speaker 1: are a team who I believe.

969
00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:49,840
Speaker 3: They they did I Love You, Philip Morris, which I

970
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:50,480
Speaker 3: am a fan of.

971
00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:54,480
Speaker 1: Actually it's really they They didn't. They did crazy stupid

972
00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:57,120
Speaker 1: love right, and then they do the thing that these

973
00:52:57,280 --> 00:52:59,279
Speaker 1: that these guys often do, which is they take a

974
00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:01,399
Speaker 1: serious turn and it kind of doesn't work. They did

975
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:05,680
Speaker 1: Whiskey Tango Foxtrot later on. Oh and then they go

976
00:53:05,760 --> 00:53:09,600
Speaker 1: back to comedy, and they did Jungle Cruise. I've never

977
00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:12,160
Speaker 1: seen I Love You, Philip Morris. I have seen the

978
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:16,600
Speaker 1: Billy Bob Thornton Bad News Bears, which is interesting in

979
00:53:16,640 --> 00:53:18,840
Speaker 1: retrospect because it sounds like that's what the Coen Brothers

980
00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:22,080
Speaker 1: kind of wanted from this movie. There were almost a

981
00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:25,080
Speaker 1: million different Bad Santas. It was almost James s. Gandelfini.

982
00:53:26,239 --> 00:53:28,520
Speaker 1: There was almost Bill Murray, it was almost Jack Nicholson,

983
00:53:28,560 --> 00:53:30,799
Speaker 1: it was almost de Niro, Like.

984
00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:35,200
Speaker 2: Well, DeNiro would go on to be Bad Grandpa, I think.

985
00:53:35,560 --> 00:53:38,839
Speaker 1: Yes, which is a far worse movie than this, which

986
00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:42,080
Speaker 1: is wild. I have not seen Bad Grandpa, but I do.

987
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:44,759
Speaker 1: I'm like, I wonder how common that is that, Like,

988
00:53:45,560 --> 00:53:47,880
Speaker 1: if you work long enough, you're gonna be bad something

989
00:53:49,719 --> 00:53:50,440
Speaker 1: Bad Moms.

990
00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:53,359
Speaker 3: Well it's like you know, well, yeah, no. The bad

991
00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:55,600
Speaker 3: prefix definitely got very popular for a one of the

992
00:53:55,640 --> 00:53:57,560
Speaker 3: run I was thinking about, like, yeah, turning down Bad

993
00:53:57,600 --> 00:54:00,160
Speaker 3: Santa and then doing Bad Grandpa is like when on

994
00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:02,160
Speaker 3: Connery turned down Lord of the Rings and then said

995
00:54:02,200 --> 00:54:06,320
Speaker 3: yes to Leave of Extraordinary Gentlemen. You never know, You

996
00:54:07,480 --> 00:54:08,200
Speaker 3: just never know.

997
00:54:08,440 --> 00:54:10,959
Speaker 1: Everything is a gamble. I love I feel like there's

998
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:13,520
Speaker 1: a I can't remember what my favorite example of that is,

999
00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:18,040
Speaker 1: but yeah, So anyways, just like speaking to the all

1000
00:54:18,080 --> 00:54:20,600
Speaker 1: over the place nature of the movie there, when the

1001
00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:25,080
Speaker 1: sequel came out, there was a an oral history of

1002
00:54:25,400 --> 00:54:29,400
Speaker 1: the first one that released that gets at what you

1003
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:32,480
Speaker 1: were talking about earlier. Alonzo that Tony Cox was an

1004
00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:35,440
Speaker 1: actor that Terry Swagoff really had to fight for and

1005
00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:38,040
Speaker 1: he sort of it sounds like there's conflicting accounts, but

1006
00:54:38,080 --> 00:54:41,160
Speaker 1: that he kind of threatened to walk if he didn't

1007
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:44,480
Speaker 1: get the cast that he wanted and really went to

1008
00:54:44,520 --> 00:54:48,480
Speaker 1: bat for Tony Cox and Brad Kelly, who seemed to

1009
00:54:48,480 --> 00:54:51,160
Speaker 1: have a lot of love for him. Billy Bob Tharton

1010
00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:54,960
Speaker 1: seems like maybe not as much, which brings us to

1011
00:54:56,280 --> 00:54:58,239
Speaker 1: I don't know, like the less said about the Weinstein's,

1012
00:54:58,239 --> 00:55:01,000
Speaker 1: the better they're involved, you've seen them. It's not chocking.

1013
00:55:01,840 --> 00:55:05,080
Speaker 1: But brings us back to Marcus, who again it's like

1014
00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:09,240
Speaker 1: there from scene to scene, I feel like his character

1015
00:55:09,400 --> 00:55:11,640
Speaker 1: is treated very differently. There is a version of this

1016
00:55:11,719 --> 00:55:16,719
Speaker 1: character that I think is better, but I get like

1017
00:55:16,760 --> 00:55:19,560
Speaker 1: there there were this movie did have me sometimes for

1018
00:55:19,680 --> 00:55:21,920
Speaker 1: like a scene or two where you're like, oh, that's interesting,

1019
00:55:22,120 --> 00:55:23,880
Speaker 1: right where I don't know.

1020
00:55:23,920 --> 00:55:26,760
Speaker 3: Well, there's a base level of pragmatism of like, dude,

1021
00:55:27,320 --> 00:55:30,960
Speaker 3: you're drunk. We have to keep it together if we're gonna,

1022
00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:33,960
Speaker 3: you know, do this heist, and if you are like

1023
00:55:34,239 --> 00:55:36,560
Speaker 3: urinating on children and having sex with women in the

1024
00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:39,080
Speaker 3: dressing room, that's not gonna help us. Like, you've got

1025
00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:40,719
Speaker 3: to keep it together long enough for us to do

1026
00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:42,920
Speaker 3: our thing. And I think if they had focused on that,

1027
00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:45,320
Speaker 3: where he's just like trying to get the job done

1028
00:55:45,719 --> 00:55:50,560
Speaker 3: and not tolerant of you know, Willie's shenanigans, that's a character,

1029
00:55:50,640 --> 00:55:52,439
Speaker 3: but they don't. They don't stay on.

1030
00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:54,399
Speaker 1: That, they don't quite commit to it. Yeah, I felt

1031
00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:57,120
Speaker 1: the same way, where it's like it is an interesting

1032
00:55:57,360 --> 00:55:59,880
Speaker 1: premise to me that we have Tony Cox, who is

1033
00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:02,720
Speaker 1: a little person. He has been in a ton of movies,

1034
00:56:02,960 --> 00:56:06,080
Speaker 1: but his character, unlike so many little people in movies,

1035
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:10,640
Speaker 1: is not defined by that quality. He is first and

1036
00:56:10,719 --> 00:56:15,040
Speaker 1: foremost robbing department stores, and like it's a broad comedy,

1037
00:56:15,080 --> 00:56:18,239
Speaker 1: it's not a huge, you know, in depth life, but.

1038
00:56:18,320 --> 00:56:20,920
Speaker 3: Like he's willing to use his status as a little

1039
00:56:20,920 --> 00:56:25,280
Speaker 3: person to get the elf gigs, which right in another movie,

1040
00:56:25,280 --> 00:56:27,399
Speaker 3: I think that becomes a smarter thing of like, well,

1041
00:56:27,560 --> 00:56:29,560
Speaker 3: I'm a little person, you're a safe cracker. I know

1042
00:56:29,760 --> 00:56:33,520
Speaker 3: we'll do this, and that becomes our stick. And I

1043
00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:36,600
Speaker 3: think the fact that he is resentful of the fact

1044
00:56:36,600 --> 00:56:39,360
Speaker 3: that he's spending nearly the entire movie dressed as an elf,

1045
00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:42,359
Speaker 3: but he's doing it as a means to an end

1046
00:56:42,480 --> 00:56:45,680
Speaker 3: is an interesting way to portray a little person character

1047
00:56:45,760 --> 00:56:47,920
Speaker 3: that a lot of other movies weren't maybe smart enough

1048
00:56:47,960 --> 00:56:48,120
Speaker 3: to do.

1049
00:56:48,760 --> 00:56:52,040
Speaker 1: I guess it's the thing that really bumps for me,

1050
00:56:52,120 --> 00:56:54,279
Speaker 1: and I'd be curious what our listeners think as well,

1051
00:56:54,400 --> 00:56:57,120
Speaker 1: is that it's so often I feel like every time

1052
00:56:57,160 --> 00:56:59,439
Speaker 1: we get a little closer to having a fuller idea

1053
00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:03,120
Speaker 1: of his character, it just like the concept of his

1054
00:57:03,320 --> 00:57:06,279
Speaker 1: taking advantage of other people's assumptions about him to get

1055
00:57:06,280 --> 00:57:10,160
Speaker 1: what he wants, that's an interesting premise, But then it

1056
00:57:10,239 --> 00:57:14,279
Speaker 1: sometimes just devolves into jokes about little people that feel like,

1057
00:57:14,440 --> 00:57:17,080
Speaker 1: you know, the elements of this kind of movie that

1058
00:57:17,160 --> 00:57:19,680
Speaker 1: really don't work for me, where it's just like piling

1059
00:57:19,720 --> 00:57:21,600
Speaker 1: it on and piling it on and piling it on

1060
00:57:22,080 --> 00:57:24,560
Speaker 1: to the port where it feels like improvised, of like,

1061
00:57:24,600 --> 00:57:26,760
Speaker 1: what's the worst thing you can think of? To say

1062
00:57:26,800 --> 00:57:27,600
Speaker 1: about this man.

1063
00:57:27,760 --> 00:57:31,280
Speaker 2: You know, right, the movie waffles back and forth between

1064
00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:36,439
Speaker 2: scenes where other characters will be talking about him and

1065
00:57:37,160 --> 00:57:40,080
Speaker 2: they're not sure what language to use to describe him,

1066
00:57:40,120 --> 00:57:43,480
Speaker 2: and they end up using disparaging language and using slurs,

1067
00:57:44,200 --> 00:57:46,840
Speaker 2: and you know, Bernie mac finally comes in and has

1068
00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:50,640
Speaker 2: to say, like, you know, the correct languages, little people.

1069
00:57:51,480 --> 00:57:55,400
Speaker 2: And you could argue that there's commentary there kind of

1070
00:57:55,720 --> 00:58:00,920
Speaker 2: in people fumbling over the right language who use and

1071
00:58:01,080 --> 00:58:05,200
Speaker 2: getting it wrong and being ablest along the way, But

1072
00:58:05,960 --> 00:58:09,560
Speaker 2: that gets undercut when in all of the other scenes

1073
00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:19,040
Speaker 2: you have various other characters, namely Willie constantly insulting Marcus

1074
00:58:19,320 --> 00:58:24,880
Speaker 2: and being entirely ablest toward him, and sometimes Marcus pushes

1075
00:58:24,920 --> 00:58:27,240
Speaker 2: back on that and he calls him out.

1076
00:58:27,320 --> 00:58:30,040
Speaker 1: I think pretty frequently he does, which is which I did,

1077
00:58:30,120 --> 00:58:33,920
Speaker 1: which again I appreciate it. Yeah, of like there's multiple

1078
00:58:33,960 --> 00:58:38,240
Speaker 1: scenes where Marcus is like I think it's it's a

1079
00:58:38,280 --> 00:58:40,280
Speaker 1: scene towards the end where he's like, yeah, go ahead

1080
00:58:40,280 --> 00:58:42,600
Speaker 1: and say, like say something about how I'm a little person,

1081
00:58:42,680 --> 00:58:44,880
Speaker 1: like you're the weakest man in the entire world, and

1082
00:58:44,920 --> 00:58:46,760
Speaker 1: like that's kind of all you have on me because

1083
00:58:46,800 --> 00:58:48,960
Speaker 1: I'm a person and you're a piece of shit. And

1084
00:58:49,000 --> 00:58:51,200
Speaker 1: so it's like there are these moments of like lucidity

1085
00:58:51,280 --> 00:58:53,680
Speaker 1: that you're like, oh, now we're going somewhere. But then

1086
00:58:53,720 --> 00:58:56,600
Speaker 1: it like the turn that Marcus's character takes toward the

1087
00:58:56,680 --> 00:58:59,400
Speaker 1: end didn't really scan for me, like totally.

1088
00:58:59,480 --> 00:59:02,280
Speaker 3: It's just sometimes it's eating its cake and having it

1089
00:59:02,320 --> 00:59:04,640
Speaker 3: tube and like we're acknowledging that this is terrible, but

1090
00:59:04,680 --> 00:59:06,720
Speaker 3: we're also doing it because you're going to find it funny,

1091
00:59:06,720 --> 00:59:06,960
Speaker 3: you know.

1092
00:59:07,080 --> 00:59:12,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's also a lot of Willy saying slurs and

1093
00:59:12,280 --> 00:59:15,280
Speaker 2: that's played for laughs, and that's Oh, you're the audience

1094
00:59:15,320 --> 00:59:17,080
Speaker 2: is supposed to laugh at that. Oh, we're supposed to

1095
00:59:17,080 --> 00:59:17,720
Speaker 2: find that funny.

1096
00:59:17,920 --> 00:59:20,080
Speaker 3: So I do want to get Billy Bob Thornton credit

1097
00:59:20,160 --> 00:59:22,920
Speaker 3: for not trying to make this character lovable. Yeah, Like

1098
00:59:23,000 --> 00:59:26,280
Speaker 3: I think he is committed to the Zwygoff version of this,

1099
00:59:26,360 --> 00:59:28,160
Speaker 3: which is that this guy is a piece of shit.

1100
00:59:28,760 --> 00:59:31,240
Speaker 3: And I think there are other characters who would play

1101
00:59:31,280 --> 00:59:33,200
Speaker 3: it with a wink, who would play with oh I'm

1102
00:59:33,200 --> 00:59:36,000
Speaker 3: a scamp, but you love me, and Billy Bob Thornton

1103
00:59:36,040 --> 00:59:38,080
Speaker 3: just feels like he is going full on no, no,

1104
00:59:38,280 --> 00:59:41,200
Speaker 3: I am this is an alcoholic hitting rock Bottom in

1105
00:59:41,240 --> 00:59:42,000
Speaker 3: a Santa suit.

1106
00:59:42,400 --> 00:59:44,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like that's I think that's It's like everyone

1107
00:59:44,960 --> 00:59:47,160
Speaker 1: is kind of in a different movie here at different moments,

1108
00:59:47,200 --> 00:59:50,919
Speaker 1: because it does feel like, I don't know's there's Billy

1109
00:59:50,960 --> 00:59:54,680
Speaker 1: Bob Thornton performances I really really enjoy and like his

1110
00:59:54,680 --> 00:59:57,160
Speaker 1: his whole Like we can't even get into the Billy

1111
00:59:57,160 --> 00:59:59,479
Speaker 1: Bob Thornton of it all. There's just so much going

1112
00:59:59,480 --> 01:00:02,360
Speaker 1: on with that guy. I also didn't realize he was

1113
01:00:02,400 --> 01:00:05,360
Speaker 1: in his seventies. Now he's like also weirdly ageless in

1114
01:00:05,400 --> 01:00:08,720
Speaker 1: my mind. But but yeah, it seems like he's he's

1115
01:00:08,800 --> 01:00:12,600
Speaker 1: playing the version of this character who dies at the end.

1116
01:00:12,920 --> 01:00:15,520
Speaker 1: He's not playing the version of this character that forms

1117
01:00:15,560 --> 01:00:19,160
Speaker 1: a meaningful Christmas bond with a bullied.

1118
01:00:18,840 --> 01:00:19,560
Speaker 3: Child and.

1119
01:00:21,080 --> 01:00:23,560
Speaker 1: Right right, so he Yeah, that's a good point, Like

1120
01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:27,240
Speaker 1: he is playing an irredeemable piece of shit in you know,

1121
01:00:27,360 --> 01:00:31,240
Speaker 1: more of like an art housey Terry's Wygoff movie, and

1122
01:00:31,280 --> 01:00:34,680
Speaker 1: then it's like Frankenstein into being this other thing and

1123
01:00:34,720 --> 01:00:37,280
Speaker 1: it just doesn't work. And I also, I mean, like

1124
01:00:37,680 --> 01:00:40,600
Speaker 1: I don't know, there is a lot of speaking to

1125
01:00:40,600 --> 01:00:44,600
Speaker 1: your point, Heitlen, a lot of ablest dated language that

1126
01:00:44,840 --> 01:00:48,120
Speaker 1: was very normalized to say in a shock context in

1127
01:00:48,160 --> 01:00:52,080
Speaker 1: the two thousands that now just is like does not age. Well,

1128
01:00:52,280 --> 01:00:57,960
Speaker 1: it's weirdly making a comeback, and that's also horrible. But

1129
01:00:58,160 --> 01:01:01,200
Speaker 1: we see that a lot. We see that, you know,

1130
01:01:01,400 --> 01:01:04,480
Speaker 1: with relation to Tony Cox's character. We see that with

1131
01:01:04,600 --> 01:01:09,960
Speaker 1: relation to Thermimon's character quite a bit, whether it's like

1132
01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:13,400
Speaker 1: fat shaming or dropping the R word, which comedy is

1133
01:01:13,400 --> 01:01:18,680
Speaker 1: in the two thousands did constantly because that was what

1134
01:01:18,720 --> 01:01:21,640
Speaker 1: it was like watching a movie. Then yeah, I don't know,

1135
01:01:21,760 --> 01:01:24,920
Speaker 1: it's I think we keep kind of circling back to

1136
01:01:24,960 --> 01:01:28,280
Speaker 1: the same point where it's like this, if this movie

1137
01:01:28,320 --> 01:01:31,360
Speaker 1: is this tone, just just kill him, just kill the guy.

1138
01:01:31,840 --> 01:01:35,200
Speaker 1: But then also I'm like, there were scenes that I

1139
01:01:35,280 --> 01:01:37,440
Speaker 1: was like, I like Therman Merman. I don't want to

1140
01:01:37,440 --> 01:01:39,120
Speaker 1: get rid of Thurm and Merman. I think he's a

1141
01:01:39,120 --> 01:01:41,680
Speaker 1: sweet kid. I want the best for him.

1142
01:01:42,000 --> 01:01:44,840
Speaker 3: What's funny about steering away from the ending in which

1143
01:01:44,880 --> 01:01:48,680
Speaker 3: he dies is that it basically turns Bad Santa into

1144
01:01:48,800 --> 01:01:51,840
Speaker 3: the kind of Christmas movie that people who love Bad

1145
01:01:51,880 --> 01:01:53,920
Speaker 3: Santa would, on the for the most part, say they

1146
01:01:53,960 --> 01:01:57,520
Speaker 3: don't like you know, if you're turning to this movie

1147
01:01:57,520 --> 01:01:59,880
Speaker 3: as an alternative from the sort of sweetness and light

1148
01:02:00,160 --> 01:02:03,000
Speaker 3: or from the kind of redemption arcs of you know,

1149
01:02:03,240 --> 01:02:05,640
Speaker 3: it's a Wonderful life or a Christmas Carol or whatever,

1150
01:02:06,080 --> 01:02:09,160
Speaker 3: then you would want that character dead. But if you don't,

1151
01:02:09,200 --> 01:02:12,120
Speaker 3: and you want to see him improve and become a

1152
01:02:12,160 --> 01:02:15,080
Speaker 3: better person because of the magic of Christmas or whatever,

1153
01:02:15,320 --> 01:02:18,920
Speaker 3: then really you do like that kind of movie. You

1154
01:02:19,080 --> 01:02:21,320
Speaker 3: just can't admit it, and so we have to dress

1155
01:02:21,320 --> 01:02:23,800
Speaker 3: it up in this sort of like badass, you know,

1156
01:02:23,960 --> 01:02:26,600
Speaker 3: thing that you can feel like a tough guy about.

1157
01:02:26,640 --> 01:02:29,640
Speaker 3: But it's it. It has been edited to be that

1158
01:02:29,720 --> 01:02:31,000
Speaker 3: movie eventually, but.

1159
01:02:31,040 --> 01:02:33,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, it still wants you to like have the like

1160
01:02:33,320 --> 01:02:37,040
Speaker 1: warm ish fuzzies at the end where they're like, he's okay,

1161
01:02:37,120 --> 01:02:38,240
Speaker 1: you guys, He's okay.

1162
01:02:38,440 --> 01:02:41,960
Speaker 2: It's like not too far from the narrative that we've

1163
01:02:42,000 --> 01:02:45,440
Speaker 2: seen over and over as far as especially father and

1164
01:02:45,680 --> 01:02:51,240
Speaker 2: Son Redemption are Christmas stories, because that's the Santa Claus.

1165
01:02:51,720 --> 01:02:58,080
Speaker 2: That's Jack Frost, feminist masterpiece, Michael Keaton's Jack Frost.

1166
01:02:58,200 --> 01:03:00,200
Speaker 3: I mean Elf, even Elf, Like.

1167
01:03:00,160 --> 01:03:03,000
Speaker 1: It's so it's so many this movie coming out the

1168
01:03:03,000 --> 01:03:05,680
Speaker 1: same year as Elf is wild What a wild year

1169
01:03:05,840 --> 01:03:06,720
Speaker 1: for love?

1170
01:03:06,800 --> 01:03:10,680
Speaker 3: Actually yes, have y'all done a love actually episode?

1171
01:03:10,760 --> 01:03:12,840
Speaker 2: It was like one of our first episodes.

1172
01:03:12,520 --> 01:03:14,840
Speaker 3: I would hope, So Okay, yes, I think.

1173
01:03:14,680 --> 01:03:16,720
Speaker 1: We're due for a revisit, though, I mean, I think

1174
01:03:16,720 --> 01:03:20,240
Speaker 1: it's a long time. We just watched The Family Stone

1175
01:03:20,600 --> 01:03:23,560
Speaker 1: for the first time and I was I'm like, I need,

1176
01:03:23,680 --> 01:03:25,680
Speaker 1: I need to like go on a walk, I need

1177
01:03:25,720 --> 01:03:29,320
Speaker 1: to promise the event since the film. But but yeah,

1178
01:03:29,360 --> 01:03:33,360
Speaker 1: for this one. In the theatrical cut, it seems like

1179
01:03:33,400 --> 01:03:37,640
Speaker 1: and certainly in the extended cut, I mean I wrote

1180
01:03:37,680 --> 01:03:40,200
Speaker 1: down tells you it's a fathers and sons movie in

1181
01:03:40,400 --> 01:03:44,080
Speaker 1: record time, tells you in ad r in the opening

1182
01:03:44,080 --> 01:03:48,240
Speaker 1: shot or in narration in the opening shot. And interestingly,

1183
01:03:48,400 --> 01:03:50,760
Speaker 1: I've gotten in the habit of looking at some of

1184
01:03:50,800 --> 01:03:54,240
Speaker 1: the top letterbox reviews, especially for broad comedies that I

1185
01:03:54,280 --> 01:03:56,680
Speaker 1: don't like, because you can you can almost always find

1186
01:03:56,840 --> 01:03:58,920
Speaker 1: someone's reasoning for like why this movie means a lot

1187
01:03:58,960 --> 01:04:01,360
Speaker 1: to them, and I think it's interest to look into it,

1188
01:04:01,800 --> 01:04:05,400
Speaker 1: and a handful of them for this movie specifically references

1189
01:04:05,480 --> 01:04:09,800
Speaker 1: that opening monologue as like what really hooked them? So

1190
01:04:10,200 --> 01:04:12,720
Speaker 1: I'm like, you know, probably this zygoth version of this

1191
01:04:12,760 --> 01:04:15,480
Speaker 1: movie wouldn't have been commercially successful, but it would definitely

1192
01:04:15,520 --> 01:04:20,040
Speaker 1: make more sense. But yeah, I mean that opening monologue

1193
01:04:20,440 --> 01:04:22,840
Speaker 1: is also like paints him out to be a despicable person.

1194
01:04:22,880 --> 01:04:27,120
Speaker 1: He says something racist within it. It sort of solidifies that,

1195
01:04:27,200 --> 01:04:31,240
Speaker 1: like we're playing into negative stereotypes around veterans. We're playing that,

1196
01:04:31,280 --> 01:04:33,840
Speaker 1: you know, certainly around addiction. That is the premise of

1197
01:04:33,840 --> 01:04:36,480
Speaker 1: the movie, right. But starting the movie by being like

1198
01:04:36,640 --> 01:04:40,680
Speaker 1: I was like abused by a father with anger issues

1199
01:04:41,440 --> 01:04:44,920
Speaker 1: and like have gone on to live this like aimless,

1200
01:04:44,920 --> 01:04:49,680
Speaker 1: self destructive life and I hate Christmas but I'm Santa,

1201
01:04:49,800 --> 01:04:52,880
Speaker 1: it like sets you up for the Weinstein version of

1202
01:04:52,920 --> 01:04:55,880
Speaker 1: the movie of like what his I mean, it's also

1203
01:04:55,960 --> 01:05:00,200
Speaker 1: the moral of Jurassic Park, where it's like this the

1204
01:05:00,240 --> 01:05:03,720
Speaker 1: Crouch needs to learn how to be a father yesterday.

1205
01:05:03,640 --> 01:05:03,960
Speaker 2: And.

1206
01:05:05,560 --> 01:05:09,480
Speaker 1: Which sounds like the Zwygoff cut has like no interest

1207
01:05:09,480 --> 01:05:12,640
Speaker 1: in whatsoever. Nope, Yeah, I don't know. I'm like, I

1208
01:05:12,640 --> 01:05:15,480
Speaker 1: guess I prefer like I don't really prefer one over

1209
01:05:15,640 --> 01:05:19,960
Speaker 1: the other. But seeing them sort of Frankenstein together is

1210
01:05:19,720 --> 01:05:21,440
Speaker 1: a is a very weird experience.

1211
01:05:21,800 --> 01:05:23,840
Speaker 3: I mean, sadly, I guess this is an example in

1212
01:05:23,880 --> 01:05:27,440
Speaker 3: which like studio notes and interference do make a movie

1213
01:05:27,480 --> 01:05:30,439
Speaker 3: more successful, because you're right. I think the Zwygoth version

1214
01:05:30,440 --> 01:05:32,360
Speaker 3: of Bad Santa would have been like an art house

1215
01:05:33,480 --> 01:05:35,800
Speaker 3: curio and it would you know, would have a tiny

1216
01:05:35,880 --> 01:05:38,240
Speaker 3: cult that watched every year, But it would not have

1217
01:05:38,320 --> 01:05:42,560
Speaker 3: become what it became because again I think it's it

1218
01:05:42,640 --> 01:05:45,760
Speaker 3: is a movie that stealthily is delivering the kind of

1219
01:05:45,840 --> 01:05:48,880
Speaker 3: Christmas movie that Bad Santa fans would claim that they

1220
01:05:48,880 --> 01:05:49,880
Speaker 3: were too cool for.

1221
01:05:50,240 --> 01:05:54,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, everyone secretly like I feel like wants the Grouch

1222
01:05:54,280 --> 01:05:56,600
Speaker 1: to reform. It's the screw.

1223
01:05:56,720 --> 01:05:59,000
Speaker 3: The Grinch is hard to grow three sizes, right.

1224
01:05:59,520 --> 01:06:07,560
Speaker 2: Jim Christian for Michael Caine screwge to look at cratch

1225
01:06:07,600 --> 01:06:10,800
Speaker 2: It and be like, here's a Christmas goose.

1226
01:06:11,280 --> 01:06:14,040
Speaker 1: But it's just like beyond the pale here because the

1227
01:06:14,080 --> 01:06:18,240
Speaker 1: original version of this character is kind of irredeemably horrible.

1228
01:06:18,560 --> 01:06:21,600
Speaker 2: Well that's the thing, Like whatever, if there has to

1229
01:06:21,640 --> 01:06:25,680
Speaker 2: be a male redemption story like a fine I would

1230
01:06:25,680 --> 01:06:29,680
Speaker 2: there have rather men always redeem themselves than a bad

1231
01:06:29,960 --> 01:06:35,840
Speaker 2: man go on staying horrible for the rest of his life. Right, Yeah,

1232
01:06:35,880 --> 01:06:38,640
Speaker 2: so like in realized like how it always happens in

1233
01:06:38,680 --> 01:06:43,400
Speaker 2: real life. But the movie is just so riddled with

1234
01:06:43,920 --> 01:06:49,320
Speaker 2: slur after slur after problematic joke after reductive stereotype after.

1235
01:06:49,360 --> 01:06:52,040
Speaker 1: You know it, like, which is like the two thousands

1236
01:06:52,480 --> 01:06:53,440
Speaker 1: right in comedy.

1237
01:06:53,640 --> 01:06:57,320
Speaker 2: It's just it can't. I mean, there's we could get

1238
01:06:57,320 --> 01:07:03,320
Speaker 2: into the representation of alcoholism, the agism with the grandmother

1239
01:07:03,480 --> 01:07:07,120
Speaker 2: character being so oblivious that she doesn't notice that an

1240
01:07:07,160 --> 01:07:10,680
Speaker 2: adult man with a balaclava is in her house about

1241
01:07:10,720 --> 01:07:12,560
Speaker 2: to rob her everything.

1242
01:07:12,880 --> 01:07:16,000
Speaker 1: Like yeah, I mean, it's like it's so deeply of

1243
01:07:16,040 --> 01:07:20,160
Speaker 1: its time and like ven some and so to be asked,

1244
01:07:20,680 --> 01:07:24,200
Speaker 1: I think kind of then Anne now to be like,

1245
01:07:24,960 --> 01:07:27,959
Speaker 1: we love this guy, he's a lovable rogue, Like I don't.

1246
01:07:28,880 --> 01:07:33,480
Speaker 1: It's sell It's the it's the rule of if you

1247
01:07:33,480 --> 01:07:35,560
Speaker 1: were her child when you saw this movie, I'm sure that,

1248
01:07:35,720 --> 01:07:39,000
Speaker 1: like it is something that you carry a little torch

1249
01:07:39,080 --> 01:07:42,080
Speaker 1: for in your heart. But yeah, having seen it for

1250
01:07:42,120 --> 01:07:44,360
Speaker 1: the first time, for this, I'm like, I just I

1251
01:07:44,400 --> 01:07:48,960
Speaker 1: simply cannot, I cannot participate in loving this movie. But

1252
01:07:49,320 --> 01:07:52,200
Speaker 1: Bernie Mack did still manage to make me laugh and

1253
01:07:52,280 --> 01:07:55,960
Speaker 1: basically every scene he was in I mean fair, that's

1254
01:07:56,320 --> 01:07:58,160
Speaker 1: just kind of the rule of Mac.

1255
01:07:59,360 --> 01:08:03,000
Speaker 2: I'll touch on the sequel really quick because I'm like, well,

1256
01:08:03,080 --> 01:08:04,840
Speaker 2: if I watched it, because you've both seen it.

1257
01:08:04,960 --> 01:08:07,120
Speaker 3: Yes, I saw it when it came out, not since,

1258
01:08:07,160 --> 01:08:08,600
Speaker 3: so I don't really remember it.

1259
01:08:09,280 --> 01:08:11,400
Speaker 2: I watched it yesterday, so it's quite fresh.

1260
01:08:11,560 --> 01:08:12,280
Speaker 3: Okay. Tell me.

1261
01:08:12,600 --> 01:08:14,800
Speaker 2: The main reason I wanted to watch it is because

1262
01:08:14,840 --> 01:08:17,560
Speaker 2: it came out in twenty sixteen, and this is around

1263
01:08:17,680 --> 01:08:23,680
Speaker 2: the time that movies started to be less overtly problematic

1264
01:08:23,920 --> 01:08:29,160
Speaker 2: and slightly more conscious about how things were being represented

1265
01:08:29,240 --> 01:08:31,800
Speaker 2: and what language was being used and all of that

1266
01:08:31,840 --> 01:08:32,360
Speaker 2: kind of stuff.

1267
01:08:32,360 --> 01:08:34,120
Speaker 1: Our show came out this week.

1268
01:08:33,960 --> 01:08:39,080
Speaker 2: Exactly, so I was curious if you fixed everything we actually.

1269
01:08:38,680 --> 01:08:42,280
Speaker 1: Fixed Well, I don't know, take a survey. I don't

1270
01:08:42,320 --> 01:08:43,479
Speaker 1: know that we've made much of a dent.

1271
01:08:44,800 --> 01:08:48,880
Speaker 2: But I was curious if this sequel scaled back on

1272
01:08:49,080 --> 01:08:54,240
Speaker 2: any of the ableism, racism, fat phobia, agism, et cetera

1273
01:08:54,680 --> 01:08:58,160
Speaker 2: that we see in the original movie, because I feel

1274
01:08:58,160 --> 01:09:02,679
Speaker 2: like you will see sequels that come out like whatever, ten, fifteen,

1275
01:09:02,760 --> 01:09:07,480
Speaker 2: twenty years later that will sort of update whatever.

1276
01:09:07,200 --> 01:09:08,559
Speaker 1: The story the world.

1277
01:09:09,160 --> 01:09:13,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, things feel slightly updated and slightly adjusted for the time.

1278
01:09:13,720 --> 01:09:17,960
Speaker 1: Bad Santa hates woke. I just know he hates woke.

1279
01:09:18,120 --> 01:09:22,519
Speaker 2: This movie did not do that. This movie doubled down

1280
01:09:22,800 --> 01:09:27,000
Speaker 2: and even added some stuff like it was just as problematic,

1281
01:09:27,080 --> 01:09:31,720
Speaker 2: if not more than the two thousand and three original movie.

1282
01:09:31,720 --> 01:09:33,920
Speaker 1: Which is I mean, I think the only thing that

1283
01:09:34,080 --> 01:09:36,400
Speaker 1: is like, I don't know, I mean, yeah, I didn't

1284
01:09:36,400 --> 01:09:39,760
Speaker 1: see it. I had it up and I was like,

1285
01:09:39,880 --> 01:09:42,599
Speaker 1: I cannot press play it, Like I just can't do it.

1286
01:09:43,240 --> 01:09:48,000
Speaker 1: But clearly an interest in this style of comedy in

1287
01:09:48,040 --> 01:09:50,960
Speaker 1: the mid twenty tens wasn't there, because this Is the

1288
01:09:52,120 --> 01:09:54,040
Speaker 1: sequel did not do well. It didn't even make its

1289
01:09:54,080 --> 01:09:54,679
Speaker 1: budget back.

1290
01:09:55,120 --> 01:09:57,760
Speaker 3: And I'm and not that I'm in any way defending it,

1291
01:09:57,800 --> 01:09:59,439
Speaker 3: but I think, of course, if you're gonna make a

1292
01:09:59,479 --> 01:10:01,880
Speaker 3: bad Sant sequel, you're gonna think, well, what do people

1293
01:10:01,960 --> 01:10:04,639
Speaker 3: love about the first one? What is it that keeps

1294
01:10:04,640 --> 01:10:07,679
Speaker 3: them coming back and rewatching it every year? The easy

1295
01:10:07,760 --> 01:10:10,519
Speaker 3: answer is, oh, well, the shocking humor and the you know,

1296
01:10:10,960 --> 01:10:13,720
Speaker 3: the the sort of bleak point of view and the

1297
01:10:13,760 --> 01:10:17,479
Speaker 3: no holds barred offensiveness. You know. So now let's have

1298
01:10:17,600 --> 01:10:19,800
Speaker 3: Kathy Bates say all that stuff. You know.

1299
01:10:21,280 --> 01:10:23,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh yeah, I guess that that is the twenty

1300
01:10:23,880 --> 01:10:27,479
Speaker 1: sixteen twists. They're like, now, women are horrible. We wrote

1301
01:10:27,479 --> 01:10:29,639
Speaker 1: a woman character and she's awful.

1302
01:10:29,840 --> 01:10:31,960
Speaker 3: You're like equity, all right.

1303
01:10:32,240 --> 01:10:38,000
Speaker 2: Also, Kathy Bates plays his mother and she's only seven

1304
01:10:38,120 --> 01:10:39,920
Speaker 2: years older than Billy Bob Thornton.

1305
01:10:40,400 --> 01:10:46,080
Speaker 3: So that's the it's the Angela Lansbury condition, you know. Yeah,

1306
01:10:46,240 --> 01:10:48,840
Speaker 3: she spent the entire nineteen sixties playing the moms of

1307
01:10:48,840 --> 01:10:51,360
Speaker 3: people she was like less than a decade older than Yeah,

1308
01:10:51,960 --> 01:10:54,880
Speaker 3: urion Canada. Yeah, I'll fall down. Yeah.

1309
01:10:54,960 --> 01:10:59,120
Speaker 1: Why, it's just like, can a woman just have a

1310
01:10:59,120 --> 01:11:03,000
Speaker 1: Bob in peace without it being a big, a whole thing?

1311
01:11:03,680 --> 01:11:08,920
Speaker 1: Evidently not? Well, thank you for watching Bad Santa, both

1312
01:11:08,960 --> 01:11:13,800
Speaker 1: of you and it's best of but also Lauren Lauren

1313
01:11:13,840 --> 01:11:16,599
Speaker 1: Graham didn't come back. She was like, I'm correct you No.

1314
01:11:16,720 --> 01:11:20,800
Speaker 1: I just this year I read both of her memoirs

1315
01:11:21,360 --> 01:11:24,360
Speaker 1: because I am a millennial woman, and I had a

1316
01:11:24,360 --> 01:11:27,160
Speaker 1: great time. She's a really great funny writer.

1317
01:11:27,560 --> 01:11:31,160
Speaker 3: Nice to check those out. She's quite good. Uh. In

1318
01:11:31,200 --> 01:11:34,200
Speaker 3: the remake of the Best Christmas Pageant Ever that came

1319
01:11:34,200 --> 01:11:34,880
Speaker 3: out last year.

1320
01:11:35,400 --> 01:11:38,559
Speaker 1: Oh, I haven't seen Pete Holmes movie.

1321
01:11:38,680 --> 01:11:41,920
Speaker 3: Yes, because she she narrates and so, you know, which

1322
01:11:41,920 --> 01:11:43,479
Speaker 3: gives it a little Christmas story flavor.

1323
01:11:43,720 --> 01:11:45,680
Speaker 1: And then she was in Twinless this year, which I

1324
01:11:45,720 --> 01:11:47,200
Speaker 1: didn't see, but I know you did. Caitlyn.

1325
01:11:47,280 --> 01:11:48,560
Speaker 2: Yes, I loved that movie.

1326
01:11:48,920 --> 01:11:51,880
Speaker 1: And then she's in one of the Colleen Hoover slop

1327
01:11:52,000 --> 01:11:57,519
Speaker 1: movies that I'm kind of play. She plays Mommy question Mark,

1328
01:11:57,600 --> 01:12:02,160
Speaker 1: probably in a movie called Remind Him. I'm just like

1329
01:12:02,280 --> 01:12:06,120
Speaker 1: the Colling Hoover movie is. It's I will never see them,

1330
01:12:06,120 --> 01:12:09,000
Speaker 1: but I do kind of delight in seeing the trailers

1331
01:12:09,560 --> 01:12:14,600
Speaker 1: aggressively shoveled at me, where it's like, nice, try nice, triasshole.

1332
01:12:14,720 --> 01:12:18,120
Speaker 2: You're not getting me in that room. There's a few

1333
01:12:18,160 --> 01:12:20,120
Speaker 2: other things with this movie, like specific things that we

1334
01:12:20,880 --> 01:12:23,800
Speaker 2: haven't touched on that you know, we don't need to

1335
01:12:23,880 --> 01:12:27,880
Speaker 2: necessarily go into a lot of detail on. I'm thinking

1336
01:12:28,000 --> 01:12:31,200
Speaker 2: especially of the scene in which the random man from

1337
01:12:31,240 --> 01:12:32,920
Speaker 2: the bar, oh yeah.

1338
01:12:32,840 --> 01:12:34,920
Speaker 1: Tax the homophobia jumps care.

1339
01:12:35,240 --> 01:12:41,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a character played by A. J. Nadou, who

1340
01:12:41,360 --> 01:12:45,160
Speaker 2: plays Samir from Office Space. I was like, oh my god,

1341
01:12:45,200 --> 01:12:48,120
Speaker 2: that's Samir. But anyway, the scene is so bizarre.

1342
01:12:48,240 --> 01:12:52,680
Speaker 1: Also, the character is named Hindustani troublemaker yeah, which is like,

1343
01:12:52,760 --> 01:12:54,680
Speaker 1: if there was any question of how much regard the

1344
01:12:54,720 --> 01:12:56,240
Speaker 1: script has for the character.

1345
01:12:56,000 --> 01:12:56,840
Speaker 2: There there you go.

1346
01:12:57,040 --> 01:12:59,000
Speaker 1: But it manages to be everything at once. I mean,

1347
01:12:59,000 --> 01:13:02,840
Speaker 1: it manages to be so many horrible stereotypes that it's

1348
01:13:02,960 --> 01:13:07,800
Speaker 1: like almost impressive that it's like homophobic, it is hostile

1349
01:13:07,960 --> 01:13:11,880
Speaker 1: to any brown person who's ever existed. It's like, it's

1350
01:13:12,000 --> 01:13:16,080
Speaker 1: just so I does feel like that. Yeah, I was like,

1351
01:13:16,120 --> 01:13:16,640
Speaker 1: what is it?

1352
01:13:16,680 --> 01:13:19,760
Speaker 2: I think it's supposed to be a joke about like

1353
01:13:20,080 --> 01:13:25,240
Speaker 2: repressed homo eroticism, which is manifesting as homophobia in the character.

1354
01:13:25,320 --> 01:13:28,240
Speaker 2: But I'm just like I could barely make sense of it.

1355
01:13:28,240 --> 01:13:29,519
Speaker 2: It's such a bizarre scene.

1356
01:13:29,600 --> 01:13:32,040
Speaker 1: The character never comes back. It is based off of

1357
01:13:32,120 --> 01:13:33,840
Speaker 1: a look in the bar.

1358
01:13:34,240 --> 01:13:37,160
Speaker 2: It's just bizarre. So it's a it's a handful of

1359
01:13:37,200 --> 01:13:40,240
Speaker 2: things like that throughout the movie, on top of all

1360
01:13:40,360 --> 01:13:48,000
Speaker 2: the just slurs that are ablest, racist, sexist, fat phobic, homophobics,

1361
01:13:48,000 --> 01:13:53,320
Speaker 2: et cetera. And I and and it doesn't pass.

1362
01:13:53,120 --> 01:13:53,800
Speaker 3: The bechd.

1363
01:13:55,840 --> 01:13:59,160
Speaker 1: And it doesn't even come close to passing the Bechdel test,

1364
01:13:59,360 --> 01:14:02,479
Speaker 1: so we can got to just skip over that. Usually

1365
01:14:02,560 --> 01:14:06,240
Speaker 1: there's at least a spirited debate going on in the

1366
01:14:06,280 --> 01:14:11,240
Speaker 1: comments of Bechdel test dot com, but here for this one,

1367
01:14:11,600 --> 01:14:16,240
Speaker 1: everyone's pretty like, no, Nope. Lauren Graham touches clorus Leachman's foot,

1368
01:14:16,760 --> 01:14:19,479
Speaker 1: and that is that is as far as we got.

1369
01:14:20,800 --> 01:14:25,320
Speaker 1: So yeah, So let's get to the more important metric,

1370
01:14:25,360 --> 01:14:28,559
Speaker 1: and perhaps the most important metrics, the Bechdel Cast Nipple scale.

1371
01:14:28,840 --> 01:14:31,840
Speaker 2: Yes, the scale where we rate the movie zero to

1372
01:14:31,880 --> 01:14:35,639
Speaker 2: five nipples based on examining it through an intersectional feminist lens.

1373
01:14:36,320 --> 01:14:40,000
Speaker 2: I will give this movie zero nipples. Can you imagine that.

1374
01:14:40,400 --> 01:14:44,559
Speaker 1: It's kind of an easy one. I'm going to join

1375
01:14:44,640 --> 01:14:49,280
Speaker 1: you with zero nipples. Look, the movie got some chuckles

1376
01:14:49,280 --> 01:14:50,320
Speaker 1: out of me, but.

1377
01:14:51,000 --> 01:14:52,160
Speaker 2: This is a sinister movie.

1378
01:14:52,240 --> 01:14:54,400
Speaker 1: It does have a bit of a dark aura. I

1379
01:14:54,400 --> 01:14:57,680
Speaker 1: would say it's again, it's like if Terry's Wygoff had

1380
01:14:57,720 --> 01:15:00,479
Speaker 1: been able to commit to his vision, it's still wouldn't

1381
01:15:00,520 --> 01:15:03,080
Speaker 1: be a movie I liked, but it would be a

1382
01:15:03,120 --> 01:15:04,839
Speaker 1: movie that made sense.

1383
01:15:05,280 --> 01:15:08,320
Speaker 2: But maybe that was saying something that was like trying

1384
01:15:08,320 --> 01:15:10,679
Speaker 2: to make a statement. But this just ends up being

1385
01:15:10,840 --> 01:15:14,360
Speaker 2: a statementless.

1386
01:15:13,479 --> 01:15:15,880
Speaker 1: Because he really, like I mean, outside of I mean,

1387
01:15:15,920 --> 01:15:19,280
Speaker 1: I guess the change that takes place with him has

1388
01:15:19,360 --> 01:15:21,640
Speaker 1: to do with Thurman Merman, but it doesn't have to

1389
01:15:21,640 --> 01:15:25,320
Speaker 1: do with anyone else. And there are so many characters

1390
01:15:25,360 --> 01:15:27,320
Speaker 1: that it's bizarre that it doesn't have to do with

1391
01:15:27,360 --> 01:15:30,160
Speaker 1: anyone else. And I guess we touched on this, but

1392
01:15:30,160 --> 01:15:33,160
Speaker 1: my last thing said because I have no nipples to award,

1393
01:15:33,640 --> 01:15:36,520
Speaker 1: is that I felt like they really sold out Marcus's

1394
01:15:36,600 --> 01:15:41,759
Speaker 1: character based on who I thought he was. I felt betrayed.

1395
01:15:41,760 --> 01:15:44,280
Speaker 1: I was like this, he is so like I mean,

1396
01:15:44,800 --> 01:15:48,559
Speaker 1: he's not a genius, mastermind, criminal, but he is at

1397
01:15:48,640 --> 01:15:53,120
Speaker 1: least thoughtful in how these things committed to. Yeah, so

1398
01:15:53,280 --> 01:15:57,400
Speaker 1: for him to randomly murder someone who people are certainly

1399
01:15:57,439 --> 01:16:00,559
Speaker 1: going to miss, it just felt like, so.

1400
01:16:01,000 --> 01:16:02,679
Speaker 2: That's sloppy, that's sloppy work.

1401
01:16:02,920 --> 01:16:05,840
Speaker 1: It was a sloppy He's presented as.

1402
01:16:05,720 --> 01:16:10,360
Speaker 2: Being the far more competent of the two between him

1403
01:16:10,400 --> 01:16:14,360
Speaker 2: and Willie. He's on top of stuff, he's making a

1404
01:16:14,400 --> 01:16:17,760
Speaker 2: list and checking it twice. You might say he truly is,

1405
01:16:17,920 --> 01:16:21,760
Speaker 2: and then suddenly he's like a murderer, Like where did

1406
01:16:21,760 --> 01:16:25,640
Speaker 2: this come from? Is very bizarre, it's something else. It's yeah,

1407
01:16:26,040 --> 01:16:30,960
Speaker 2: so yeah, zero nipples boo to this movie. Alonso, How

1408
01:16:31,000 --> 01:16:32,880
Speaker 2: about you? What do you? What say you?

1409
01:16:33,000 --> 01:16:33,160
Speaker 1: Oh?

1410
01:16:33,200 --> 01:16:36,920
Speaker 3: Well, if we're talking the scale is purely about intersectional feminism.

1411
01:16:37,320 --> 01:16:39,599
Speaker 3: I think a zero was the only way to go

1412
01:16:39,800 --> 01:16:41,519
Speaker 3: if we were rating out on like you know, a

1413
01:16:41,560 --> 01:16:47,559
Speaker 3: poisonous missiletoe displays or you know, empty cans of bud light.

1414
01:16:47,600 --> 01:16:50,360
Speaker 3: It might be something else, but yeah, on the nipple scale,

1415
01:16:50,400 --> 01:16:51,760
Speaker 3: it is a It is a big goose egg.

1416
01:16:52,640 --> 01:16:55,320
Speaker 2: Indeed. Well, thank you so much for joining us for

1417
01:16:55,360 --> 01:16:56,160
Speaker 2: this discussion.

1418
01:16:56,400 --> 01:16:57,360
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.

1419
01:16:57,520 --> 01:17:03,120
Speaker 2: What a holiday treat. Where can people follow you online?

1420
01:17:03,400 --> 01:17:07,200
Speaker 2: Check out your podcasts and your books and everything else.

1421
01:17:07,720 --> 01:17:10,160
Speaker 3: Well, you can read my reviews of current films at

1422
01:17:10,240 --> 01:17:13,320
Speaker 3: the film Verdict at the film verdict dot com. And

1423
01:17:13,360 --> 01:17:15,960
Speaker 3: I'm on various podcasts. My husband Dave White and I

1424
01:17:15,960 --> 01:17:20,400
Speaker 3: do the show Linoleum Knife, which just celebrated its fifteenth anniversary. Right,

1425
01:17:21,320 --> 01:17:24,360
Speaker 3: thank you. Yeah, we are the literal gray old men

1426
01:17:24,439 --> 01:17:28,439
Speaker 3: of movie podcasting. Also, you can hear me on Breakfast

1427
01:17:28,479 --> 01:17:30,599
Speaker 3: All Day with Christy Lemire. The two of us used

1428
01:17:30,600 --> 01:17:32,160
Speaker 3: to do a show called What the Flick, but now

1429
01:17:32,160 --> 01:17:35,000
Speaker 3: we've started We've had Breakfast all Day going for several

1430
01:17:35,040 --> 01:17:39,559
Speaker 3: years on YouTube, the Maximum Fun show Maximum Film with

1431
01:17:39,680 --> 01:17:43,280
Speaker 3: Drea Clark and Kevin Avery, and I pop in regularly

1432
01:17:43,320 --> 01:17:46,200
Speaker 3: to Deck the Hallmark to talk about Chris's movies of

1433
01:17:46,280 --> 01:17:49,799
Speaker 3: various stripes. I'm the easiest person on earth to Google,

1434
01:17:49,840 --> 01:17:53,120
Speaker 3: but I'm a Duraldi on Blue Sky and Alonzo dot

1435
01:17:53,160 --> 01:17:56,639
Speaker 3: Duraldi at Instagram. And my new book is the revised

1436
01:17:56,680 --> 01:17:59,160
Speaker 3: and updated second edition of Have Yourself a Movie, Little Christmas.

1437
01:17:59,160 --> 01:18:02,120
Speaker 3: It's available wherever you buy books online, in person at

1438
01:18:02,120 --> 01:18:04,799
Speaker 3: your local library. It's a book, book and an ebook.

1439
01:18:05,080 --> 01:18:06,480
Speaker 3: Pick one up this holiday.

1440
01:18:06,160 --> 01:18:09,160
Speaker 1: Season, please do, Aliza, thank you so much. I a

1441
01:18:09,200 --> 01:18:11,880
Speaker 1: longtime fan of your work, so it's like its cool

1442
01:18:11,920 --> 01:18:15,760
Speaker 1: and surreal to talk to you about this perfect movie.

1443
01:18:15,840 --> 01:18:20,840
Speaker 3: No notes. If y'all haven't done Carol yet, you know,

1444
01:18:20,880 --> 01:18:22,320
Speaker 3: I think there'd be a lot more to dig into.

1445
01:18:22,439 --> 01:18:23,479
Speaker 2: We have done Carol.

1446
01:18:24,040 --> 01:18:24,840
Speaker 3: You have done Carol?

1447
01:18:24,880 --> 01:18:28,000
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, yeah, that is That is the That is

1448
01:18:28,080 --> 01:18:32,519
Speaker 1: the Christmas movie that does follow. You can find us

1449
01:18:32,560 --> 01:18:34,960
Speaker 1: in all the regular places, mostly on Instagram. You can

1450
01:18:35,000 --> 01:18:38,880
Speaker 1: also join our Patreon aka Matreon, where for five dollars

1451
01:18:38,920 --> 01:18:42,120
Speaker 1: a month, you can listen to two bonus episodes every

1452
01:18:42,240 --> 01:18:45,920
Speaker 1: month and also vote on what movies you want to

1453
01:18:45,920 --> 01:18:50,639
Speaker 1: hear about. So this this month, the Matrons have voted

1454
01:18:50,760 --> 01:18:54,760
Speaker 1: on the Family Stone and The Original Black Christmas. So

1455
01:18:54,800 --> 01:18:56,880
Speaker 1: if you want to hear those episodes or our back

1456
01:18:56,920 --> 01:19:00,639
Speaker 1: catalog of nearly two hundred episodes, I think now sign

1457
01:19:00,880 --> 01:19:03,719
Speaker 1: up in the Lincoln description give.

1458
01:19:03,600 --> 01:19:06,320
Speaker 2: Yourself a little holiday gift, give someone else a little

1459
01:19:06,360 --> 01:19:10,479
Speaker 2: holiday gift of the Bechdel Cast Matreon And.

1460
01:19:10,520 --> 01:19:17,000
Speaker 1: With that, let's either die on the front doorstep and

1461
01:19:17,240 --> 01:19:20,799
Speaker 1: or go on to live a long, healthy life. Ho

1462
01:19:20,800 --> 01:19:29,560
Speaker 1: Ho ho bye. The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia,

1463
01:19:29,680 --> 01:19:32,559
Speaker 1: hosted and produced by Me Jamie Loftus and.

1464
01:19:32,600 --> 01:19:37,439
Speaker 2: Me Caitlyn Dorante. The podcast is also produced by Sophie Lichtermann.

1465
01:19:37,200 --> 01:19:39,880
Speaker 1: And edited by Caitlyn Dorante. Ever heard of them?

1466
01:19:40,400 --> 01:19:43,840
Speaker 2: That's me and our logo and merch and all of

1467
01:19:43,840 --> 01:19:47,599
Speaker 2: our artwork in fact are designed by Jamie Loftis, ever

1468
01:19:47,640 --> 01:19:48,080
Speaker 2: heard of her?

1469
01:19:48,280 --> 01:19:51,280
Speaker 1: Oh my God? And our theme song, by the way,

1470
01:19:51,400 --> 01:19:53,200
Speaker 1: was composed by Mike Kaplan.

1471
01:19:53,040 --> 01:19:56,120
Speaker 2: With vocals by Katherine Vosskrasinski.

1472
01:19:55,720 --> 01:19:58,519
Speaker 1: Iconic and a special thanks to the one and only

1473
01:19:58,880 --> 01:19:59,880
Speaker 1: Aristotle Asve.

1474
01:20:00,680 --> 01:20:04,479
Speaker 2: For more information about the podcast, please visit Linktree Slash

1475
01:20:04,520 --> 01:20:05,320
Speaker 2: Spectelcast