Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to work in progress. Hi,
Speaker 1: friends and listeners. I am absolutely elated today to be
Speaker 1: joined by someone that I look up to learn from,
Speaker 1: am in awe of, and honestly who gives me so
Speaker 1: much inspiration, such reminders to be courageous, and also often
Speaker 1: helps me give myself permission to be a little more
Speaker 1: patient with my life. Today's guest is doctor Tama Bryant.
Speaker 1: She is a psychologist, author, professor, sacred artist, and minister
Speaker 1: who is leading the way in creating healthy relationships, healing traumas,
Speaker 1: and overcoming stress and depression. And she manages to do
Speaker 1: it with an energy and a smile and a voice
Speaker 1: that makes everyone around her take it deep, breath, lean in,
Speaker 1: and feel seen. Doctor Tema is the author of the
Speaker 1: newly released book Matters of the Heart, which aims to
Speaker 1: empower readers to connect with themselves and others, delving into
Speaker 1: topics like control issues, emotional and availability, and relationships both
Speaker 1: with others and with ourselves. Her first book, Homecoming, came
Speaker 1: out in twenty twenty two, and I know so many
Speaker 1: of us needed it, loved it, cherished it. This book,
Speaker 1: Matters of the Heart is absolutely beautiful. It draws on
Speaker 1: the wisdom of science and sacredness lived experience, and helps
Speaker 1: readers tend to, as doctor Tama calls it, the garden
Speaker 1: of their hearts. She encourages us to build our best
Speaker 1: relational lives because love is not a level playing field,
Speaker 1: and improving your relationship with yourself is the first step
Speaker 1: in leveling the field and living a life that brings
Speaker 1: you joy. Let's dive in with doctor Tama. Doctor Tamin,
Speaker 1: I'm just elated to have you here, and I sort
Speaker 1: of feel like my favorite first question to ask everyone
Speaker 1: goes a layer deeper because today I get to ask
Speaker 1: it of you. So much of your research helps us
Speaker 1: understand our connection to ourselves. And when I sit with
Speaker 1: someone like yourself who has these lists of accolades and
Speaker 1: incredible you know, books published and all of these things,
Speaker 1: I'm always curious, if you could bend the spacetime continuum
Speaker 1: and sit across from yourself at eight or nine years old,
Speaker 1: if you would see the woman that you are today
Speaker 1: in that little girl. And I think I'm particularly thrilled
Speaker 1: to hear your answer because so much of what you're
Speaker 1: doing in the new book is helping us understand and
Speaker 1: how the younger versions of ourselves affect who we are today.
Speaker 1: So all of that said and no pressure, but I
Speaker 1: can't wait to hear how you would feel with your
Speaker 1: nine year.
Speaker 2: Old Yes, I love that question.
Speaker 3: And to my nine year old self, I would say
Speaker 3: something I commonly say today to clients, to mintees, to
Speaker 3: social media, and that is you are worthy. You are worthy,
Speaker 3: You are worthy. There are so many messages that bombard
Speaker 3: us from very early on, especially as girls and as women,
Speaker 3: to feel insufficient, inadequate, to feel that we have to
Speaker 3: be something we are not, to believe that we are
Speaker 3: not enough. And so I would say to the nine
Speaker 3: year old me, you are more more than enough, you
Speaker 3: are worthy, and you will align with people who see you,
Speaker 3: so don't lose sight of yourself. Yeah, yeah, And I
Speaker 3: do want to say there are different domains of self esteem,
Speaker 3: different areas of self esteem. So academically I was an
Speaker 3: a student and felt very good about that, and then
Speaker 3: in terms of like gifts or talents, I love dancing
Speaker 3: and poetry and felt very positive about that. But then
Speaker 3: when we get to the realities of sexism and racism,
Speaker 3: they do a number on the self esteem, the body image,
Speaker 3: the social esteem of ourselves when you feel like you
Speaker 3: are not chosen or not sufficient, and so when you've
Speaker 3: had those experiences of and it can result in you breadcrumbing,
Speaker 3: accepting the minimum, not being aware that you're deserving of
Speaker 3: the feast, even if the feast has not yet shown that.
Speaker 1: M Yeah, that's a big one, right. The idea that
Speaker 1: you are worthy of being patient with your life, because
Speaker 1: there's a lot of talk about oh, you're worthy of this,
Speaker 1: and how can you love another person if you don't
Speaker 1: love yourself, and it all feels a little bumper stickery
Speaker 1: to me.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 1: And the notion that you can be sure you deserve
Speaker 1: something you haven't seen yet, but you know it exists
Speaker 1: because you've certainly seen other people find it. That's a
Speaker 1: kind of nuance and a layered ability to look at
Speaker 1: time differently that I don't think we are encouraged to
Speaker 1: focus on, especially as women and especially in a capitalist
Speaker 1: world where productivity is sort of treated as sacred. To
Speaker 1: be and allow yourself this space to be is kind
Speaker 1: of a radical act of self acceptance.
Speaker 3: It is it is the basis of what's called liberation psychology.
Speaker 3: So liberation psychology requires that we pay attention to contexts.
Speaker 3: When people are ignoring contexts, they would say, the problem
Speaker 3: is just in your mind, like why don't you love
Speaker 3: your body? Why don't you love your face? Why don't
Speaker 3: you love your hair, as if you have just created
Speaker 3: these thoughts in the abstract, as opposed to the powerful
Speaker 3: messaging that gets sent forward that says you have to
Speaker 3: be something other than what you are to be love,
Speaker 3: to be worthy, to be respected, to be appreciated. And
Speaker 3: so when we dismantle those and we speak truth to
Speaker 3: the fact of of course, this is a struggle for
Speaker 3: you because there have been all of these systems set
Speaker 3: up to make you believe you are unworthy.
Speaker 2: So the fact that you wrestle.
Speaker 3: With it is not like, oh, you just need to
Speaker 3: love you. It's a as you name, it's a radical
Speaker 3: revolutionary act of resistance for me to push through all
Speaker 3: of these messages and say I still choose me, I
Speaker 3: still celebrate me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you've just illuminated something for me. I wonder.
Speaker 1: I would imagine you've had this a lot, because you're
Speaker 1: such a profound speaker and a profound writer and such
Speaker 1: a top tier academic that you also have the research
Speaker 1: to back up the poetry that you often give to
Speaker 1: the world. And many years ago I was asked what
Speaker 1: I would say to my younger self and what came
Speaker 1: to me, And I didn't realize how badly I needed
Speaker 1: to hear it until I said it out loud. Was
Speaker 1: worry less about being someone else's definition of enough. You
Speaker 1: already are. And I consider myself. You know, we talk
Speaker 1: a lot about privilege in the world, and we have
Speaker 1: to to begin to understand as you're referring to these
Speaker 1: systems that treat people differently. I consider myself to have
Speaker 1: had the great privilege of a lot of exposure to
Speaker 1: a lot of people who live different than me and
Speaker 1: look like do look different than me for my whole life.
Speaker 1: And one of the things in groups of women that
Speaker 1: you know we all do the work with when I
Speaker 1: look at women who look like me, who might be
Speaker 1: newer to some of these spaces, I just say, you
Speaker 1: know how hard it is to move through the world
Speaker 1: in your body as a woman. Imagine how hard it
Speaker 1: is for my best friend Nia, for doctor Tama, who
Speaker 1: I say with today, for the other women in our
Speaker 1: circles that we know to move through the world as
Speaker 1: women and as black women, or Brown women or South
Speaker 1: Asian women, like the piling on of what you have
Speaker 1: to squeeze through. You don't get to be passing in
Speaker 1: any way. You don't get to take off your identity.
Speaker 1: And it's why I think when we have to ask
Speaker 1: people to look deeper. Even when you talk about loving
Speaker 1: your hair, you know the idea that there could be
Speaker 1: resistance to the Crown Act, to a law that says
Speaker 1: you cannot discriminate against your employees for how they wear
Speaker 1: their hair. Yes, people who haven't experienced it don't realize
Speaker 1: it's part of the menu of microaggressions that you're being
Speaker 1: faced with every day. And so I wish and I
Speaker 1: think part of the reason I always cherish finding you
Speaker 1: in the sphere of what my algorithm serves to me
Speaker 1: when I pick up my phone, it always knows I
Speaker 1: want to hear from you, is that you're reminding us
Speaker 1: all instead of competing in the I'm more hurt than
Speaker 1: you Olympics, to say I know what hurt is. How
Speaker 1: can I acknowledge my own and how can I be
Speaker 1: sensitive to the different kinds of hurt that exists in
Speaker 1: the people around me? So maybe we can all heal
Speaker 1: together and I think it's a profound practice for humans,
Speaker 1: and in a moment like this, it's an incredibly important
Speaker 1: awareness to carry as we try to push back against
Speaker 1: this pendulum swing back into deep, overt, cruel, systemic oppression.
Speaker 1: So you're doing heart work, You're doing like nation saving
Speaker 1: work as.
Speaker 3: Well as Yeah, it really is about recognizing how much
Speaker 3: our liberation is intertwined. And when we don't see that,
Speaker 3: we treat it like a competition, which then says you
Speaker 3: have to be erased so that I can be seen.
Speaker 3: And when people act like that, then it is the
Speaker 3: misperception that if you have a month, or you have
Speaker 3: a day, or you have a speaker, that somehow that
Speaker 3: is an attack on me, instead of I love that
Speaker 3: phrase of the sky is big enough for all the
Speaker 3: stars to shine.
Speaker 2: So there is room to talk about all of our
Speaker 2: histories which are interwoven. There is room to talk about
Speaker 2: our literature, our art, our beauty, our contributions, our wisdoms,
Speaker 2: our spiritualities.
Speaker 3: There is space. And so it is that scarcity mindset
Speaker 3: and agreed mindset that says there will only be room
Speaker 3: for one and that one must be me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it strikes me because you are able to hold
Speaker 1: all of these things. You are a professional at the dialectics,
Speaker 1: you understand all of these things can be true at
Speaker 1: the same time. And to be the psychologist that you
Speaker 1: are and come from a deep generational faith tradition in
Speaker 1: your family to be both a psychologist and a minister.
Speaker 1: So many people assume that faith and science are diametrically
Speaker 1: opposed instead of actually, when the scope is widened, able
Speaker 1: to hold and support one another. How did you How
Speaker 1: did you get here? When did it click for you
Speaker 1: entering into academia or as a young student that you
Speaker 1: wanted to carry both of these worlds together.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it feels more true, more real, more authentic to me,
Speaker 2: instead of what we would call the false dichotomy.
Speaker 3: Right of which one are you? Do you appreciate science
Speaker 3: or are you a spiritual person? And it's who said
Speaker 3: I had to choose because if I'm a spiritual person,
Speaker 3: then I understand the lessons that are encoded in nature.
Speaker 3: And if I sit and appreciate the observations, then I
Speaker 3: understand the sacred can work through my being as a psychologist.
Speaker 3: That it's not an either or like are you going
Speaker 3: to pray or go to therapy? You can pray your
Speaker 3: way to therapy.
Speaker 2: You can pray therapy, you can pray after therapy.
Speaker 3: So rejecting and resisting these false choice is and I
Speaker 3: would say, you know, a part of that is from
Speaker 3: an afrocentric perspective is fundamentally being holistic. And so we're
Speaker 3: holistic and we honor the mind, the body, the heart,
Speaker 3: the spirit, the community. And I used to live these
Speaker 3: kind of separate sels. So when I was with my
Speaker 3: spiritual friends, then that's what I would talk about. When
Speaker 3: I was with my artsy friends, then we talk about
Speaker 3: dance and poetry. When I was with my academic folks,
Speaker 3: and we would talk about the latest articles. And I
Speaker 3: will say I did not maximize and I'm still not
Speaker 3: at the maximum, but I did not maximize my possibility
Speaker 3: until I started integrating those multiple cells. And when I
Speaker 3: did that and showed up as my authentic self, it
Speaker 3: freed and liberated and gave other people permission to say
Speaker 3: me too. So, for example, I was a past president
Speaker 3: for the Society of the Psychology of Women, and you know,
Speaker 3: a big part of that work is around feminist psychology.
Speaker 3: And so when you're president, we have a budget and
Speaker 3: you can set different initiatives, And one of the initiatives
Speaker 3: that I did was on women's psychology, Spirituality, religion and faith.
Speaker 3: And before I did that initiative, there was kind of
Speaker 3: this unspoken rule that feminists would be against any kind
Speaker 3: of religious tradition because of patriarchy and the oppression of
Speaker 3: women in violence against women. And so when I announced
Speaker 3: the initiative, we had like a break in the board
Speaker 3: meeting and a number of board members came up to
Speaker 3: me and we're whispering, saying, I'm episcopalia in there, I'm Catholic,
Speaker 3: I'm Jewish, and it's like, why are we whispering? It
Speaker 3: is believing the falsehood that in order for my politic
Speaker 3: to be important to me, I had to have surrendered
Speaker 3: my faith, and it's just not true.
Speaker 2: And so it's been beautiful to be a bridge.
Speaker 3: To create spaces and hold spaces where we can be
Speaker 3: our totality, the fullness of who we are, and not
Speaker 3: have to leave parts of ourselves in the margins.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and what strikes me is so important about
Speaker 1: beginning to unify spaces like that again, is it actually
Speaker 1: gives room for them not only to evolve, but to
Speaker 1: reclaim their full selves. Yes, you know, I grew up
Speaker 1: in a family full of Catholics, Jews, and atheists, so
Speaker 1: our holiday dinners are wild as you can imagine. You know,
Speaker 1: by the time I got to college, I'd already spent
Speaker 1: you know, time taking college courses on Islamic studies. I
Speaker 1: really wanted to understand, you know, how are all these
Speaker 1: faith traditions so intertwined. And for me, it's never lost
Speaker 1: on me that when the faith tradition, whatever religion it is,
Speaker 1: also becomes a business and there's profit to be made,
Speaker 1: then the faith tradition becomes more patriarchal. Women are cut
Speaker 1: out of leadership, often cut out of text, and the
Speaker 1: energy changes. And so to your point about an afrocentric
Speaker 1: methodology of being, to become more holistically feminist, more holistically
Speaker 1: community centered, more holistically devout. In filling the blank faith,
Speaker 1: you actually become more inclusive. Yes, yes, And it's like
Speaker 1: it's like we've gotten stuck in our human experience down
Speaker 1: here in the weeds, and we're forgetting that there's a
Speaker 1: whole you know, canopy that we're meant to understand and
Speaker 1: navigate together.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So that reclamation, the decolonization, the deconstruction you know,
Speaker 3: what are the lies the myths that we were presented
Speaker 3: with as truth and as absolute and give ourselves space
Speaker 3: to interrogate that and to mean it's not that I
Speaker 3: have to throw away the whole thing. I throw away
Speaker 3: the version of it that was given to me that
Speaker 3: dishonored me. Yeah, I tap in two. There are a
Speaker 3: whole tradition of people before me who were committed to
Speaker 3: we say liberation theology. What frees us, what lifts us,
Speaker 3: What actually allows me to enter into spaces and feel
Speaker 3: loved there and feel seen? And if I have never
Speaker 3: entered into such a space, how do I create that?
Speaker 2: To create sacred space, we would.
Speaker 3: Say, even on your podcast right now, this can be
Speaker 3: holy ground, This can be sanctuary and we are deserving
Speaker 3: of that.
Speaker 1: Wow. And now a word from our wonderful sponsors. The idea.
Speaker 1: It's a big topic, right how to how to unify
Speaker 1: the world, make people treat each other more holistically, less competitively.
Speaker 1: We would be remiss not to put it in the
Speaker 1: context of what's currently happening in our country. You know,
Speaker 1: this backswing as we were discussing earlier into this, you know,
Speaker 1: very right wing discriminatory fascism, and everything you're saying perfectly
Speaker 1: fits over the scope of the world, but also of
Speaker 1: the internal world of one of an individual. And I
Speaker 1: think in periods like this where the world at large
Speaker 1: feels so traumatizing to so many people, people are trying
Speaker 1: to manage stress. They are absolutely overwhelmed. It's chronic. How
Speaker 1: do you begin to give whether it's like you said,
Speaker 1: your mentees or clients or folks who you talk to online,
Speaker 1: how do you help people get to the tip of
Speaker 1: the spear, put that first poke in the veil and
Speaker 1: start to see what's on the other side. Where do
Speaker 1: you tell folks to begin?
Speaker 3: Yeah, such an important question, especially in the times we
Speaker 3: are living in. It's necessary and so I use the
Speaker 3: term home coming to come to myself is to tell
Speaker 3: myself the truth. And when I tell myself the truth,
Speaker 3: I don't have to censor, judge, or apologize for what
Speaker 3: I feel.
Speaker 2: And so.
Speaker 3: With that in mind, for those who see the landscape
Speaker 3: and are exhausted, that makes sense speak that this is exhausting,
Speaker 3: for those who are disappointed, for those who are outraged.
Speaker 3: You know, sometimes people present this notion that to have
Speaker 3: to be mentally or spiritually well like you're just in
Speaker 3: this place of not being moved by anything, there's some
Speaker 3: outrageous things happening. So a healthy response is actually outrage.
Speaker 3: It means that I recognize that things are out of order,
Speaker 3: that people are being dishonored, that people are being dehumanized.
Speaker 3: And so you know, I would start with allow yourself
Speaker 3: to feel it. Tell yourself and those within your circle
Speaker 3: who you trust, what is stirred up for you in
Speaker 3: this season. Because what we often do, and this is
Speaker 3: again you know, from this capitalist notion of like I
Speaker 3: have to be on and perform and because I'm measured
Speaker 3: by my labor, is then we pretend how are you
Speaker 3: I'm fine and you I'm fine, right, So we shake
Speaker 3: that up. We disrupt that by.
Speaker 2: How are you? I'm mad? How are you? I'm disappointed?
Speaker 2: How were you?
Speaker 3: I'm tired? How are you I'm confused about the way forward?
Speaker 3: Oh you too, Yeah, I'm trying to figure it out too.
Speaker 3: So our truth sets us free, and that also allows
Speaker 3: us to mobilize, because you cannot respond to something you
Speaker 3: do not acknowledge. And then it's for us to step
Speaker 3: out of these silos of only fighting for my small group.
Speaker 3: Because as long as we are divided and see each
Speaker 3: other as enemy or competition, then we are disempowered. But
Speaker 3: you know, successful movements happen when they are intergenerational, when
Speaker 3: they are intercultural, when people show up from all over
Speaker 3: all over the place, and the ways in which things
Speaker 3: are moving tap into that necessity. Can I see your
Speaker 3: struggle and see mine versus? What has happened is people
Speaker 3: thought some people thought that this would not affect them,
Speaker 3: so they were comfortable with it. It's like, Oh, if
Speaker 3: it's only going to affect the undocumented, I'm okay. Or
Speaker 3: if it's only going to affect LGBTQ, I'm okay. And
Speaker 3: so then as it continues to roll out and gets
Speaker 3: closer to people's front door, then it's like, oh.
Speaker 2: Wait, what are we going to do about this? Yeah?
Speaker 2: What are we going to do about this?
Speaker 1: Do you think that? And I ask because I don't
Speaker 1: think it's easy to find people who would readily say, oh,
Speaker 1: I assumed this would just affect these people. But do
Speaker 1: you think the human I don't want to say tendency,
Speaker 1: but perhaps frequent human pattern of Oh, if it's just
Speaker 1: happening over there, then me and mine are all right.
Speaker 1: Do you think that comes from the kind of generational
Speaker 1: truth that we carry that humanity has come with such
Speaker 1: violence and such cruelty and such terror, as it has
Speaker 1: also innovated and created and done beautiful things in the world.
Speaker 1: Do you think humans have an inherent that can be
Speaker 1: so powerful that they can run from collective reality?
Speaker 3: I think instead of it being inherent, I actually think
Speaker 3: it's taught, and that people are taught that these people,
Speaker 3: whichever however we want to label them, are the problem,
Speaker 3: that they're the reason you're not succeeding, that they're the
Speaker 3: ones that are taking your jobs, that they're the ones
Speaker 3: that are ruining our neighborhood. And so it is. It
Speaker 3: is taught, and then it is repeated. And so the
Speaker 3: excuse people will give, they won't say I don't care
Speaker 3: about them. They'll say, this is going to be good
Speaker 3: for the economy, right, They'll say that, you know, I'm
Speaker 3: making a financial decision, and so this is gonna be
Speaker 3: and then like, oh, well, the price of eggs, well,
Speaker 3: the price of brig well, the employment, uh you know.
Speaker 3: But but what people have to wrestle with is actually
Speaker 3: none of what is being done was a secret or hidden.
Speaker 3: It was announced, and so uh so people were fine
Speaker 3: with it. They were fine with it. They were fine
Speaker 3: with the agenda because they thought, I'm going to get
Speaker 3: rich and we're going to get rid of all the
Speaker 3: bad people. And uh, you know it has been I
Speaker 3: would say maybe throughout our history, our societal history of
Speaker 3: convincing impoverished and middle income people that they will benefit. Uh,
Speaker 3: the more wealthy people are happy because as long as
Speaker 3: you can see someone is beneath you, then you're gonna
Speaker 3: do great. And it is a historical lesson that people
Speaker 3: have to continue to learn that some people who claim
Speaker 3: to be for me or not for me, and some
Speaker 3: people who have been presented to me as my enemies
Speaker 3: are actually my greatest potential allies.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, some of the studies confuse me. I remember,
Speaker 1: you know, the guys the rules of economic anxiety, and
Speaker 1: we all know what that is, as you've just so
Speaker 1: eloquently explained. There was a maybe it was around the midterms,
Speaker 1: a study that came out talking about how they would
Speaker 1: give these examples to people and say, well, you and
Speaker 1: all your coworkers can make eighty thousand dollars a year,
Speaker 1: or you can make one hundred thousand dollar a year,
Speaker 1: but those four guys on your team are actually going
Speaker 1: to make one hundred and twenty because they're technically doing
Speaker 1: things in the office that are more management level than you.
Speaker 1: But you know, twenty thousand dollar rais for you and
Speaker 1: forty thousand dollar rays for them. And most people said no,
Speaker 1: we should all make eighty, even though that gave them less.
Speaker 1: And I was fascinated by why do we want to
Speaker 1: compete instead of all continue to succeed? Why do you
Speaker 1: want to hold yourself and you and your coworker back
Speaker 1: instead of watch them soar and then earn your way
Speaker 1: into soaring. And when we start to look at all this,
Speaker 1: you know, the need to withhold from others is often
Speaker 1: the root of what hurts us. And we see it
Speaker 1: happening in this wide landscape, and what happens without is
Speaker 1: reflected within. And one of the things that gave me
Speaker 1: this moment of I kind of gasped when I read it,
Speaker 1: to be honest, when I started the book, And I'm
Speaker 1: going to just like do the thing on the podcast
Speaker 1: and hold up this beautiful book that you've given to
Speaker 1: us because a lot of people, I think, struggle with
Speaker 1: having to learn or you should know this by now
Speaker 1: and then they have shame if they don't, so then
Speaker 1: they don't want to learn anything about it. And we
Speaker 1: see it a lot in the world of trying to
Speaker 1: teach generational lessons and social justice and our history, especially
Speaker 1: as they're banning books. And when I picked up your
Speaker 1: book to get ready for today, I gasped really early
Speaker 1: when you said, if you want to read this book
Speaker 1: in the order of chapters that call to you, go ahead.
Speaker 1: I just ask that you do read all of it.
Speaker 1: Never have I I've ever had a teacher at any
Speaker 1: level of my personal or my academic life tell me
Speaker 1: I could read the syllabus out of order. And I
Speaker 1: was like, I'm a forty two year old woman, and
Speaker 1: I was like, I just got a permission s lift
Speaker 1: to bring the rules. And it really it gave me
Speaker 1: joy that made me laugh in my kitchen. And then
Speaker 1: I went, wait a second, what if we did this
Speaker 1: more for each other out in the world and said
Speaker 1: you might know this, but you might not know that.
Speaker 1: And here's just a thing I think you might want
Speaker 1: to know. Come to this at your own pace, come
Speaker 1: to this in your own time. How did you get there,
Speaker 1: being as wise as you are about all of it?
Speaker 1: And the generations of all of it, and the connections
Speaker 1: of all of it, and why people say what they
Speaker 1: do because they don't really want to say what they think,
Speaker 1: and where the fear comes from, And I mean it's
Speaker 1: the systems are big, and you manage to give a
Speaker 1: world of permission for every one of one person who
Speaker 1: wants to grow with you. How did you figure out
Speaker 1: how to do that? And and was it that notion
Speaker 1: of homecoming that opened it for you?
Speaker 3: It is thank you first of all for that example.
Speaker 3: And I would say a part of what you know,
Speaker 3: I approached the writing as a as a clinician or
Speaker 3: as a healer and recognizing if someone looks in that
Speaker 3: table of contents and it's about, you know, a chapter
Speaker 3: in the back on healing after infidelity and they've just
Speaker 3: been cheated on, like they want to get there. They
Speaker 3: can't even hear the rest right or how to let
Speaker 3: go of someone who doesn't love you, Like that's that's
Speaker 3: in the forefront of your heart, your mind, your spirit,
Speaker 3: And a part of you know, liberation work or womanist
Speaker 3: or feminist work is acknowledging the wisdom of the people
Speaker 3: around the table. So like that other approach is to
Speaker 3: assume I know everything and you know nothing, and so
Speaker 3: I'm going to instruct you. But instead right or you know,
Speaker 3: and that's not empowering. The empowerment is tap into your
Speaker 3: inner wisdom, tap into what you know, you know what
Speaker 3: you need right now, trust yourself with what you need
Speaker 3: right now, and once you get what you urgently need,
Speaker 3: know that the rest of it is there for you
Speaker 3: and can serve you. And one of the ways that
Speaker 3: I learned the importance of predictions, you know, sharing with people.
Speaker 3: Predictions is predictions and permission is in therapy. As a
Speaker 3: trauma psychologist, if people come in to thay therapy and
Speaker 3: in the moment they feel inspired or they feel safe
Speaker 3: and they share something very personal or very vulnerable, it
Speaker 3: is a chance that in the moment it felt good,
Speaker 3: but afterwards they're going to replay the moment and say
Speaker 3: to themselves like I said too much, or what is
Speaker 3: doctor Tamer think of me? Or I'm not going back now,
Speaker 3: I'm embarrassed. And so at the end of a session
Speaker 3: where people have really revealed themselves, I'll give them that
Speaker 3: prediction and say to them, I'm so glad what you
Speaker 3: shared today.
Speaker 2: And at some.
Speaker 3: Point this week you're likely going to think, I don't
Speaker 3: know if I want to go back, and I invite
Speaker 3: you to push past that and show up anyway. And
Speaker 3: if next week you don't want to talk about what
Speaker 3: you just said, you can say that and we'll talk
Speaker 3: about something else. So then people will come the next
Speaker 3: time and say, you know you were right. I was
Speaker 3: thinking about not coming, but I remember what you say.
Speaker 3: And so for us to walk in our mutual like
Speaker 3: we get to co create it together, and we get
Speaker 3: to honor and discover that we do know some things
Speaker 3: about ourselves.
Speaker 1: And now a word from our sponsors. One of the
Speaker 1: things I appreciate about the example you've just given is
Speaker 1: that it's kind of a meditation on patience again, not
Speaker 1: just give yourself permission to be patient for life to
Speaker 1: show up for you, but also give yourself permission to
Speaker 1: have a burst of observation and then need some time,
Speaker 1: need some time to go on your morning walk and
Speaker 1: let it reverberate around in your body and talk about
Speaker 1: something else, and then come back to it when you're
Speaker 1: body and spirit have digested it.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: You know, there's a there's a weird byproduct for all
Speaker 1: the great things that I think you know, the internet
Speaker 1: has given to us. It gave you to me as
Speaker 1: a viewer when I first found you. For example, one
Speaker 1: of the things I fear it's done, And I just
Speaker 1: had a conversation with another artist about this recently. Now
Speaker 1: you can't do anything without it feeling or likely being recorded.
Speaker 1: You don't have time to discuss something, think about it,
Speaker 1: read an article, read a book, mature your opinion, and
Speaker 1: then talk about it again. One video clip, one clickbait,
Speaker 1: one bad rehearsal for a performing artist of a song,
Speaker 1: one and it blows up your life. Right, And sometimes
Speaker 1: I worry that people are missing the ability to be vulnerable,
Speaker 1: grow and then return as fuller versions of themselves.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that is such a good point of being accepting,
Speaker 3: being called in right, accepting and appreciating growing pains. What
Speaker 3: I like to say is when we get it wrong
Speaker 3: and someone shares it with us, what a gift like
Speaker 3: they could have not said it, and then we continue
Speaker 3: on our way not knowing that something was harmful or
Speaker 3: offensive or inaccurate. And so we want to always be teachable,
Speaker 3: you know, and to have that cultural humility, you know,
Speaker 3: because now what they're trying to do is say if
Speaker 3: you make the majority uncomfortable, you have now done something illegal.
Speaker 3: And it's like discomfort is illegal, right, It will be
Speaker 3: uncomfortable to learn what you had not I been told
Speaker 3: it is uncomfortable, but you wrestle with that and can
Speaker 3: grow from it. The other thing that I think is
Speaker 3: important about us giving ourselves permission to honor where we
Speaker 3: are in the process is it also is teaching us
Speaker 3: sovereignty and empowerment in order to have boundaries. Right, when
Speaker 3: I have to just obey, then it requires no awareness
Speaker 3: on my part. But when I have to, as you
Speaker 3: name like take, I like to call it sacred pause.
Speaker 3: Let me pause and consider what do I think, what
Speaker 3: do I feel? What do I want to say? And
Speaker 3: I like to use the phrase the holiness of no,
Speaker 3: because for women, or religious people or trauma survivors, we
Speaker 3: are often talked out of our no, and we're in
Speaker 3: that people pleasing mode of what do people want me
Speaker 3: to be?
Speaker 2: But it's not authentic though.
Speaker 3: Instead I get to embrace the holiness of no, that's
Speaker 3: not where I am right now, or no I don't
Speaker 3: have a capacity for that, or just no, I choose
Speaker 3: not to, and so to give ourselves permission to grow,
Speaker 3: to change, to shift. That's the way we heal.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I love that you relate it to learning
Speaker 1: about your impact in the world, sometimes hopefully for good
Speaker 1: and sometimes where you don't mean it to be negative
Speaker 1: for others. And also this idea of even how we
Speaker 1: move through the kind of you know, staircase of our
Speaker 1: own experience and reflection. You know, I've had the version
Speaker 1: of what you just talked about with my own therapist
Speaker 1: where we get to the root of something really hard
Speaker 1: that happened and I want to talk about it. It's
Speaker 1: time to talk about it, And the next week I'm like,
Speaker 1: I need fifteen minutes of talking about something else.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1: And where I am about that is Yeah, now I've
Speaker 1: thought about it every day for seven days, and I'm
Speaker 1: mad all over again. And I'm mad at the person
Speaker 1: who was in the room and watched it happen and
Speaker 1: didn't say anything. And I'm mad. And you have to
Speaker 1: go through these things. But you're right. The expectation that
Speaker 1: you can just show up and be ready for anything
Speaker 1: at any time, it is it is a that is
Speaker 1: a boundaryless society, that is a behavior that is lacking
Speaker 1: respect for another person's process, and I think the more
Speaker 1: we can talk about it, you know how to just
Speaker 1: expand what you can hold, including for others, Like imagine
Speaker 1: what a more gentle world it would be when you
Speaker 1: went through working on the book. Because one of the
Speaker 1: things that I love about this, you know, you've coached
Speaker 1: so many of us, whether personally or digitally in community
Speaker 1: on you know, resilience, on the sacred pause, on expansion,
Speaker 1: and a lot of what you talk about in Matters
Speaker 1: of the Heart is relationship, and it's relationship to your partner,
Speaker 1: to your family, to yourself. Yes, is there a reason
Speaker 1: that you chose to use relationship as the container because
Speaker 1: it feels as a reader like it was very much
Speaker 1: on purpose, and it's not just because people are in
Speaker 1: relationships with each other.
Speaker 3: Yes, it is the biggest question and most frequent challenge
Speaker 3: that people show up with. And it's also a big
Speaker 3: predictor for our well being. So when you feel well loved,
Speaker 3: well cared for, when you have that sense of belonging,
Speaker 3: that can be a protective factor against depression, against anxiety,
Speaker 3: against diction dealing with big life transitions. It's like a
Speaker 3: moving cross country but I'm calling my friends right so
Speaker 3: that can help us, and at the same time, heartbreak
Speaker 3: can be devastating and have a ripple effect in the
Speaker 3: other areas of our lives. People can be very successful,
Speaker 3: let's say academically or professionally, and then if the partnership
Speaker 3: is in ruins or the friendship ends, it can disrupt everything.
Speaker 3: It can take our sleep, take our appetite, take our
Speaker 3: self esteem. And so it is very important both in
Speaker 3: terms of thriving and recovering from the difficulties of life.
Speaker 1: And in the book you talk a lot about emotional unavailability.
Speaker 1: How do you identify if you are emotionally unavailable or if,
Speaker 1: as you referenced earlier, you have to let go of
Speaker 1: someone who maybe does not love you in the way
Speaker 1: they said they did. That feels like an emotional unavailability
Speaker 1: or maybe better categorized as a dishonesty. I'll let you decide.
Speaker 1: But how do you find kind of the root of
Speaker 1: that problem?
Speaker 3: Yeah, so, you know, with ourselves, we kind of check
Speaker 3: in check ourselves to see how real, how authentic am
Speaker 3: I in my relationships and in my friendships. Some of
Speaker 3: us can show up for other people when we're feeling strong,
Speaker 3: when we're feeling shiny, when we're feeling successful, and then
Speaker 3: when we're feeling challenged, we disappear right. So you to
Speaker 3: ask yourself, when I'm struggling, do I reach out to
Speaker 3: my circle and let people support me, or do I
Speaker 3: isolate because I only believe people can see me when
Speaker 3: I'm at my best. So that kind of emotional one
Speaker 3: note is emotional unavailability that I can't be open to
Speaker 3: the full spectrum of my feelings in the presence of
Speaker 3: another right. So it's one thing if I say, oh,
Speaker 3: you know my coworkers or people I don't know well,
Speaker 3: or strangers on the street, Sure with them, I could
Speaker 3: do public relations of how's your day? Oh great, how's yours?
Speaker 3: But am I talking to my family and friends and
Speaker 3: partner that way? So you want to ask yourself your
Speaker 3: level of honesty, which is our level of intimacy in
Speaker 3: terms of these relationships. And we also want to think
Speaker 3: about the ways we may sabotage connections or our discomfort
Speaker 3: with being seen. How does it feel to me when
Speaker 3: people are actually paying attention right, when they observe things
Speaker 3: about me that I'm not used to people seeing.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 3: And then in terms of in relationship accepting, when people's
Speaker 3: actions either don't match their words or when their actions
Speaker 3: don't match my fantasy, because sometimes it's not even their words.
Speaker 3: Sometimes they never said anything, but you know, we created
Speaker 3: this picture of like, oh, we're going to either be
Speaker 3: besties or this is going to be my partner. Yeah,
Speaker 3: they're not on board with that. So everybody in the
Speaker 3: relationship has to know they're in it. It can't just
Speaker 3: be one sided, right, right.
Speaker 1: And now a word from our sponsors who make this
Speaker 1: show possible. I guess everybody also has a point where
Speaker 1: some of those things click in right for whatever reason.
Speaker 1: It really makes me think about the dissolution of my
Speaker 1: last relationship, which you know, to add insult to injury,
Speaker 1: was out in the world, which is never an easy
Speaker 1: way to process something, but you know, kind of comes
Speaker 1: with the job. The thing that I was so profound
Speaker 1: for me, especially as a woman, knowing how so many
Speaker 1: of us have been taught to be good and his
Speaker 1: smile and to serve others and take care of everyone
Speaker 1: else in the room and do do all of the things.
Speaker 1: Be a good soldier, be a good leader on set,
Speaker 1: be a good daughter, be whatever. The thing that finally
Speaker 1: made me stop saying, well, maybe if I compromised more.
Speaker 1: Maybe if my job were less difficult, maybe if I, maybe,
Speaker 1: if I, maybe, if I and made me go, wait
Speaker 1: a second, what about what's supposed to be for me
Speaker 1: instead of what I'm supposed to.
Speaker 2: Do for Yes?
Speaker 1: Yes, And the aha moment for me was being on
Speaker 1: the precipice of becoming a mom and going, oh, every
Speaker 1: single thing I have accepted for myself, I would never ever,
Speaker 1: except for my child, I would never ever. I would
Speaker 1: never tell my best friend to compromise more. I would
Speaker 1: say to her, you're being asked to compromise yourself, not
Speaker 1: to compromise with another. And there was something about realizing, oh,
Speaker 1: I have gone through the spectrum of you know, in
Speaker 1: small ways to unacceptable big ways. I have always kind
Speaker 1: of compromised myself. And I thought I learned how to
Speaker 1: not do that, you know, seven years ago, and here
Speaker 1: I am realizing I'm still doing it, and it looks
Speaker 1: good on the outside and it's all smoke and mirrors,
Speaker 1: and it was this kind of revelatory. I sort of
Speaker 1: felt like I felt like internally I had one of
Speaker 1: those experiences like when we used to watch the videos
Speaker 1: of the old hotels in Las Vegas, get demoed like
Speaker 1: the cool old buildings that would blow up on the
Speaker 1: inside and then collapse, because then they you know, they
Speaker 1: were building the skyscrapers like that was my thing. I
Speaker 1: was like, oh, i've the whole thing has to come down.
Speaker 1: And it made me have conversations with my parents at
Speaker 1: forty that I thought we'd had and achieved, and look
Speaker 1: at us doing the work at thirty four. All these things.
Speaker 1: It made me realize there was a whole basement layer
Speaker 1: I'd not gone through yet. And it was so painful
Speaker 1: and weirdly also the most joyous, the most oxygenated. I mean,
Speaker 1: I just took such a deep breath even thinking about it.
Speaker 1: It was so hard and so good, and it was
Speaker 1: the thing that had to happen. But I had to
Speaker 1: stop trying to be good, and I had to stop
Speaker 1: trying to take care of everyone else in the room
Speaker 1: before myself. The metaphor I gave myself was like, stop
Speaker 1: cooking a dinner for thirty people and then serving yourself
Speaker 1: the scraps as the thirtieth person to plate her food.
Speaker 1: You cooked the food, You make your plate first, you
Speaker 1: eat first.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: But it took me for decades to feel that I
Speaker 1: deserved that, and that is when I feel to what
Speaker 1: you were saying earlier, that's when I feel like my
Speaker 1: life arrived for me. And I was like, oh, okay,
Speaker 1: it's just been a slow burn.
Speaker 2: Yes, but it's here. Ah.
Speaker 3: I love that testimony. And it's also deeply understandable because
Speaker 3: we get celebrated for erasing ourselves. You know, people will
Speaker 3: hold you up and say, you're a good partner, you're
Speaker 3: a good friend, you have no needs, you.
Speaker 1: Have no needs, you're so selfless.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, it gets celebrated, and so of course you
Speaker 3: lived like that, right, And I think that's the part
Speaker 3: to take in because if not, we can beat ourselves
Speaker 3: up about, oh my god, why did I do this?
Speaker 3: For decades because it was taught and reinforced and it
Speaker 3: was modeled and celebrated that this is what you because
Speaker 3: nobody wants to be a selfish woman, right, right, And
Speaker 3: so then when you're like, wait a minute, we're getting
Speaker 3: the bad into the stick here, right, I suppose this
Speaker 3: should be mutual, This should be reciprocal.
Speaker 2: I should be that. You know.
Speaker 3: What I like to say is if you make them
Speaker 3: your priority and they make themselves their priority, who's looking
Speaker 3: out for you. Right, So I can only be selfless
Speaker 3: in the presence of someone else who is selfless, and
Speaker 3: then we are mutually nourishing each other.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yes, well, and you're saying something that I think gets
Speaker 1: missed in this self love discourse, love yourself first before
Speaker 1: you can love another. We talked about it earlier. There's this.
Speaker 1: I've seen backlash, you know, both for some of what
Speaker 1: I've shared. I see it with Chelsea Hamler talking about
Speaker 1: choosing herself in a relationship that wasn't good. I see it.
Speaker 1: It's on the end, not a lot like oh, happiness
Speaker 1: isn't the metric? And how selfish that you and et cetera,
Speaker 1: et cetera. No, my core, I'm still the person who
Speaker 1: likes to cook for everybody, but I can't be the
Speaker 1: only one who does it. Yes, I actually can be
Speaker 1: more selfless in a reciprocal relationship than I could ever
Speaker 1: be in one where I was expected to do all
Speaker 1: and be all and be quietly happy, right right, in
Speaker 1: a weird way, the more you're able to say, oh,
Speaker 1: I deserve, I will also take for myself, the more
Speaker 1: you can give to another, Is that right?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 3: Yeah, And then it doesn't get set up as you're
Speaker 3: dishonoring or robbing the other person, or the relationship is
Speaker 3: that we want each other to be well, and so
Speaker 3: the things that make you well.
Speaker 2: Right, But it is.
Speaker 3: Interesting as your name, people getting angry at women for
Speaker 3: wanting to be happy, so just like really and including
Speaker 3: messages from other women who have chosen misery and perseverance
Speaker 3: over their own joy, and so they are outraged at
Speaker 3: how dare you walk away and choose joy?
Speaker 2: Because for them it never felt like an option.
Speaker 1: Yes, I need you to say that again. Yeah, women,
Speaker 1: particularly yes, negative elements of the patriarchy, right, get enraged
Speaker 1: when other women choose joy, when other women get free.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, it's like, how dare you do that? I
Speaker 3: didn't know we could do that. I don't think I
Speaker 3: can do that. Doing that must be bad in order
Speaker 3: for me to feel good about myself, and so for
Speaker 3: us not to judge each other, like if someone chooses
Speaker 3: to stay in an unhappy circumstance because their values tell
Speaker 3: them loyalty is more important than happiness, that's your choice.
Speaker 2: That's your choice. That's your choice.
Speaker 3: And for those who choose to say, my mental health
Speaker 3: is more important than being loyal to something that's killing me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the choice for me. The thing that I
Speaker 1: heard myself say to a friend that then I couldn't
Speaker 1: stop saying, was everybody says life's too short, but I'm
Speaker 1: realizing life is way too long to do this.
Speaker 2: Ahh. It's just too long to be in so much
Speaker 2: pain and unfulfillment.
Speaker 3: And one of the important I think distinctions for people
Speaker 3: is it's not that I can't do it, it's that
Speaker 3: I choose not to be. I could just keep making
Speaker 3: all the dinners, right, I could keep doing all of that,
Speaker 3: But I'm gonna make another choice because I have many
Speaker 3: more years and many more seasons. And here's the other
Speaker 3: thing that I think people don't get. It actually sets
Speaker 3: both people free. Right, somebody is gonna be happy with
Speaker 3: that other person and not consider it suffering or perseverance.
Speaker 3: So let them be free to find their person. Let
Speaker 3: you be free to find yours, or to create the
Speaker 3: life that you want. That you know, it's that scarcity
Speaker 3: mindset that like we are all we could ever have,
Speaker 3: and so we have to cling to it even though
Speaker 3: it is joyless.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but to say I know I deserve more than
Speaker 1: this scarcity, it's kind of like jumping without seeing the net. Yes,
Speaker 1: beneath you. It is terrifying, you know. Thank God for
Speaker 1: hindsight because we always say, you know, it's twenty twenty.
Speaker 1: I can see the terror and the courage that it
Speaker 1: took for me and so many people I know who
Speaker 1: were going through it at the same time, and friends
Speaker 1: who are going through it now. How do you think
Speaker 1: we can tap into our courage, our knowing that there
Speaker 1: will be a net when we are so afraid? Because
Speaker 1: to your point, so many people choose the pain they
Speaker 1: know instead of the unknown, which could be joy. So
Speaker 1: there must be something we have to shift right.
Speaker 2: Right right.
Speaker 3: So a part of it is I call it a
Speaker 3: faith walk, especially if you've never been treated wonderfully well
Speaker 3: you say you've seen other people like I know it
Speaker 3: exists in the world, but has it existed for me?
Speaker 3: Then for a lot of people they would say no,
Speaker 3: like this is the best of what I've had, even
Speaker 3: though it's not good, And so can I have faith
Speaker 3: for what I have yet to experience? Can I have
Speaker 3: faith that it can exist for me? And I need
Speaker 3: to say this because I am part of in therapy.
Speaker 3: For me is like not giving false promises is like,
Speaker 3: let's say you didn't meet mister or miss wonderful, do
Speaker 3: you still want to be in this?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 3: So it's not a matter of like, it's it's because
Speaker 3: because if not, people will think instantly, well, where's my
Speaker 3: new person? And it's like, well, how about where's my
Speaker 3: new life? How about here's my joy? How about here's
Speaker 3: my opportunity to begin my new chapter whatever that is
Speaker 3: going to be.
Speaker 1: Here's here's my opportunity to be my full self instead
Speaker 1: of a reduced fractional version of me.
Speaker 2: That's right, that's right. Absolutely.
Speaker 3: So I think it's easier sometimes for people to imagine
Speaker 3: that then, because yeah, if the other way, if it's
Speaker 3: just hooked on too, like I'm instantly gonna be swooped
Speaker 3: off my feet by someone amazing, and when months or
Speaker 3: years passed they haven't met that person, then if you're like, oh,
Speaker 3: I made a mistake, it's like, no, you were miserable.
Speaker 3: You were miserable and unfulfilled, and so now you're living
Speaker 3: a freer life and down the road, who knows how
Speaker 3: far down the road you may connect with someone and
Speaker 3: then you'll be able to say it was worth the wait.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, patience, it really all sounds to me like
Speaker 1: it comes back to a practice of patience for yourself.
Speaker 3: I will say, patience and co creating. So I'm not
Speaker 3: just like pass sitting and waiting, right, because I have
Speaker 3: people who are like that, who just like work remote,
Speaker 3: stay home all day and it's like, who are you
Speaker 3: going to meet the delivery person? I have to be
Speaker 3: active while I'm being patient, but I'm engaging with life.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and sometimes just that just shifting where you physically
Speaker 1: are putting yourself in new rooms, right, it can reveal
Speaker 1: your whole life to you.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, it might have.
Speaker 1: Been in front of you the whole time.
Speaker 2: Absolutely absolutely.
Speaker 1: I said this a lot in that very transformational year
Speaker 1: as well, Like I just didn't see it until I
Speaker 1: saw it. And I think you, if you're lucky, you
Speaker 1: get put in spaces where you get to see something
Speaker 1: you didn't expect.
Speaker 3: Right, Yes, it's true being open to the new. Can
Speaker 3: my life be different than it is right now?
Speaker 2: Yes it can be.
Speaker 1: Yes, So these are big ideas. Courage is a big practice,
Speaker 1: Bravery is a big practice of faith. Walk is a
Speaker 1: big practice. What are some of the smaller more more
Speaker 1: able to go on? Perhaps a to do list? Yes,
Speaker 1: or a calendar, the daily practices that you would tell
Speaker 1: people to incorporate for their mental self care or that
Speaker 1: you incorporate for yours.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I'd like to say, create a morning ritual,
Speaker 3: you know, set the tone for your day. And you know,
Speaker 3: I had to discover that because basically, if you wake
Speaker 3: up at the time you have to jump out of bed,
Speaker 3: you've already started to stay anxious. Right, Oh, then we
Speaker 3: need to set the alarm before I need to actually
Speaker 3: be up, So I could have a season of stillness,
Speaker 3: season of sacred connection. Whatever that's going to look like
Speaker 3: for me. It might be listening to this podcast, it
Speaker 3: might be journaling. It might be I'm waking up early
Speaker 3: enough to be able to go for a walk. It
Speaker 3: might be because I need time for prayer and meditation.
Speaker 3: So start the day by feeding your spirit. I like
Speaker 3: to say, you know, pick a theme song, US song
Speaker 3: they like when you put it on, it makes you
Speaker 3: want to dance, it makes you feel good inside. That way,
Speaker 3: you're not going out in the world hungry and desperate
Speaker 3: for the world to give you life. Like I show
Speaker 3: up and then I can get for my overflow. Right,
Speaker 3: I can't show up empty, so I have to be
Speaker 3: intentional about pouring into myself. So yeah, start the day
Speaker 3: in love with love with the sacred, and then I
Speaker 3: would say, stretch into greater vulnerability in your relationships and friendships.
Speaker 3: Tell somebody an uncommon truth today. You know, when someone
Speaker 3: asks you, how are you doing? Give somebody a real answer,
Speaker 3: and then we'll start to deepen our friendships and deepen
Speaker 3: our connections.
Speaker 1: M give somebody a real answer.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: That's nice, right, it's really nice. Do you have a
Speaker 1: morning song?
Speaker 2: Oh? I have several?
Speaker 3: Uh breathe it in Uh is beautiful chorus. People listen
Speaker 3: to that. That just reminds you to take breath.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 3: And then my dear sister Joy Jones has a song
Speaker 3: called beautiful, So it starts with this affirmation I'm beautiful,
Speaker 3: Yes I am. And so just like serenading yourself in
Speaker 3: the morning.
Speaker 1: M h. Yeah, that's so special and it strikes me
Speaker 1: as simple in a way. These are simple ideas, but
Speaker 1: what they do for your spirit and for the way
Speaker 1: you begin your day profound right.
Speaker 3: It is about repeated practices over time, so in the moments,
Speaker 3: and this is an important piece people need to keep
Speaker 3: in mind. You want goals that are actually doable and attainable. Right,
Speaker 3: Sometimes we set like these outrageously huge goals that are
Speaker 3: a setup for disappointment, a setup for failure, and then
Speaker 3: we give up. Right, So the common one I said,
Speaker 3: I think I had it in the first book Homecoming,
Speaker 3: that if last night, if you had fried chicken last night,
Speaker 3: don't say, starting today, I'm a vegan.
Speaker 2: It's just it's not going to work. You start like
Speaker 2: a meetless Monday.
Speaker 3: So set goals that seem small, but you repeat them
Speaker 3: over time and habit becomes your life.
Speaker 1: That's beautiful. Oh gosh, yeah, I just I'm sitting with
Speaker 1: the thought of it, looking at the time and knowing
Speaker 1: I need to ask you my next question, but just
Speaker 1: taking a moment. So thank you for that. You know,
Speaker 1: you are a person who strikes me as always growing
Speaker 1: and learning and interrogating, and you know, giving to the
Speaker 1: world certainly, And you've given us a new book. What
Speaker 1: feels because I imagine when you think about the things
Speaker 1: you want to do, you are a person who wants
Speaker 1: to do for everyone. I love that you talk about
Speaker 1: how to do for yourself. But what right now is
Speaker 1: the book is coming out and the world is what
Speaker 1: it is, and yet you choose to begin every day
Speaker 1: in love with all these things you hold. What feels
Speaker 1: like you're work in progress right now?
Speaker 3: Well, I will say one of my what's a continuous
Speaker 3: work is parenting. My eldest is a sophomore in college
Speaker 3: now in cross country all the way in New York,
Speaker 3: and then my youngest is in middle school. Uh, And
Speaker 3: they come, you know, with very different personalities. So I
Speaker 3: like to say, you know, my eldest made me a
Speaker 3: very confident parent because.
Speaker 2: Like she just kind of out.
Speaker 3: And then when my son came along, I had had
Speaker 3: to get some humility.
Speaker 2: Like oh yeah.
Speaker 3: So continuing to be open to learning, like learning them
Speaker 3: and learning myself one of the things that really nourishes me.
Speaker 3: We talk about like what are practices we can do.
Speaker 3: I have a sisterhood circle called the Gathering uh, and
Speaker 3: we get together about once a month, either in or
Speaker 3: online and just pour into each other. And it's so
Speaker 3: important to me that it's not a space where like
Speaker 3: I'm doing all the pouring and people are just receiving.
Speaker 3: Like it is a real sisterhood circle where if we're
Speaker 3: having a rough month, we say that and get the encouragement.
Speaker 3: If you know, we have something to celebrate. We share
Speaker 3: that and so, yeah, sisterhood is such a gift and
Speaker 3: I continue to humble myself and develop as a parent.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that. Yeah it feels beautiful. Thank you
Speaker 1: so much for coming on today. It's just been an
Speaker 1: absolute joy.
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me, for the wonderful conversation, and
Speaker 3: for the beauty of your transparency and your testimony. I
Speaker 3: know that as you share your story it's set so
Speaker 3: many people free. And I love the range of us
Speaker 3: talking from personal relationships to social justice, because all of
Speaker 3: it is necessary.
Speaker 1: It is, it is. Thank you so much