WEBVTT - Dr. Thema Bryant 0:00:00.400 --> 0:00:15.040 Hey, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to work in progress. Hi, 0:00:15.160 --> 0:00:20.400 friends and listeners. I am absolutely elated today to be 0:00:20.520 --> 0:00:23.640 joined by someone that I look up to learn from, 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:27.680 am in awe of, and honestly who gives me so 0:00:27.800 --> 0:00:32.919 much inspiration, such reminders to be courageous, and also often 0:00:33.040 --> 0:00:35.800 helps me give myself permission to be a little more 0:00:35.840 --> 0:00:40.560 patient with my life. Today's guest is doctor Tama Bryant. 0:00:40.840 --> 0:00:44.920 She is a psychologist, author, professor, sacred artist, and minister 0:00:45.560 --> 0:00:49.600 who is leading the way in creating healthy relationships, healing traumas, 0:00:49.640 --> 0:00:54.040 and overcoming stress and depression. And she manages to do 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:57.440 it with an energy and a smile and a voice 0:00:57.560 --> 0:01:01.400 that makes everyone around her take it deep, breath, lean in, 0:01:01.560 --> 0:01:04.760 and feel seen. Doctor Tema is the author of the 0:01:05.160 --> 0:01:08.679 newly released book Matters of the Heart, which aims to 0:01:08.720 --> 0:01:12.080 empower readers to connect with themselves and others, delving into 0:01:12.080 --> 0:01:18.240 topics like control issues, emotional and availability, and relationships both 0:01:18.280 --> 0:01:22.560 with others and with ourselves. Her first book, Homecoming, came 0:01:22.600 --> 0:01:26.000 out in twenty twenty two, and I know so many 0:01:26.040 --> 0:01:29.880 of us needed it, loved it, cherished it. This book, 0:01:30.160 --> 0:01:34.600 Matters of the Heart is absolutely beautiful. It draws on 0:01:34.640 --> 0:01:38.360 the wisdom of science and sacredness lived experience, and helps 0:01:38.400 --> 0:01:41.639 readers tend to, as doctor Tama calls it, the garden 0:01:41.680 --> 0:01:44.560 of their hearts. She encourages us to build our best 0:01:44.600 --> 0:01:47.840 relational lives because love is not a level playing field, 0:01:47.920 --> 0:01:51.640 and improving your relationship with yourself is the first step 0:01:52.120 --> 0:01:55.280 in leveling the field and living a life that brings 0:01:55.280 --> 0:02:09.160 you joy. Let's dive in with doctor Tama. Doctor Tamin, 0:02:09.240 --> 0:02:13.760 I'm just elated to have you here, and I sort 0:02:13.800 --> 0:02:16.600 of feel like my favorite first question to ask everyone 0:02:17.040 --> 0:02:19.520 goes a layer deeper because today I get to ask 0:02:19.560 --> 0:02:23.080 it of you. So much of your research helps us 0:02:23.200 --> 0:02:28.080 understand our connection to ourselves. And when I sit with 0:02:28.080 --> 0:02:31.520 someone like yourself who has these lists of accolades and 0:02:31.680 --> 0:02:34.959 incredible you know, books published and all of these things, 0:02:35.040 --> 0:02:40.279 I'm always curious, if you could bend the spacetime continuum 0:02:40.360 --> 0:02:44.600 and sit across from yourself at eight or nine years old, 0:02:45.440 --> 0:02:47.720 if you would see the woman that you are today 0:02:48.520 --> 0:02:54.840 in that little girl. And I think I'm particularly thrilled 0:02:54.880 --> 0:02:57.560 to hear your answer because so much of what you're 0:02:57.600 --> 0:03:00.200 doing in the new book is helping us understand and 0:03:00.960 --> 0:03:06.440 how the younger versions of ourselves affect who we are today. 0:03:07.160 --> 0:03:10.080 So all of that said and no pressure, but I 0:03:10.120 --> 0:03:13.840 can't wait to hear how you would feel with your 0:03:13.919 --> 0:03:14.480 nine year. 0:03:14.360 --> 0:03:18.160 Old Yes, I love that question. 0:03:19.080 --> 0:03:22.240 And to my nine year old self, I would say 0:03:22.360 --> 0:03:28.400 something I commonly say today to clients, to mintees, to 0:03:28.560 --> 0:03:33.919 social media, and that is you are worthy. You are worthy, 0:03:34.040 --> 0:03:39.640 You are worthy. There are so many messages that bombard 0:03:39.760 --> 0:03:44.960 us from very early on, especially as girls and as women, 0:03:45.600 --> 0:03:50.880 to feel insufficient, inadequate, to feel that we have to 0:03:50.960 --> 0:03:54.080 be something we are not, to believe that we are 0:03:54.120 --> 0:03:58.520 not enough. And so I would say to the nine 0:03:58.600 --> 0:04:01.800 year old me, you are more more than enough, you 0:04:01.840 --> 0:04:06.080 are worthy, and you will align with people who see you, 0:04:06.680 --> 0:04:14.040 so don't lose sight of yourself. Yeah, yeah, And I 0:04:14.080 --> 0:04:18.400 do want to say there are different domains of self esteem, 0:04:18.440 --> 0:04:24.120 different areas of self esteem. So academically I was an 0:04:24.120 --> 0:04:28.040 a student and felt very good about that, and then 0:04:28.080 --> 0:04:31.440 in terms of like gifts or talents, I love dancing 0:04:31.520 --> 0:04:36.120 and poetry and felt very positive about that. But then 0:04:36.160 --> 0:04:40.520 when we get to the realities of sexism and racism, 0:04:40.800 --> 0:04:45.600 they do a number on the self esteem, the body image, 0:04:46.800 --> 0:04:52.000 the social esteem of ourselves when you feel like you 0:04:52.200 --> 0:04:57.080 are not chosen or not sufficient, and so when you've 0:04:57.080 --> 0:05:04.520 had those experiences of and it can result in you breadcrumbing, 0:05:04.760 --> 0:05:08.560 accepting the minimum, not being aware that you're deserving of 0:05:08.640 --> 0:05:11.120 the feast, even if the feast has not yet shown that. 0:05:11.920 --> 0:05:20.280 M Yeah, that's a big one, right. The idea that 0:05:20.320 --> 0:05:25.960 you are worthy of being patient with your life, because 0:05:25.960 --> 0:05:28.560 there's a lot of talk about oh, you're worthy of this, 0:05:28.600 --> 0:05:30.520 and how can you love another person if you don't 0:05:30.600 --> 0:05:34.080 love yourself, and it all feels a little bumper stickery 0:05:34.240 --> 0:05:34.479 to me. 0:05:34.640 --> 0:05:34.880 Yes. 0:05:35.680 --> 0:05:42.039 And the notion that you can be sure you deserve 0:05:42.240 --> 0:05:46.200 something you haven't seen yet, but you know it exists 0:05:46.279 --> 0:05:50.640 because you've certainly seen other people find it. That's a 0:05:50.760 --> 0:05:58.839 kind of nuance and a layered ability to look at 0:05:58.880 --> 0:06:02.720 time differently that I don't think we are encouraged to 0:06:03.240 --> 0:06:06.640 focus on, especially as women and especially in a capitalist 0:06:06.680 --> 0:06:12.440 world where productivity is sort of treated as sacred. To 0:06:12.680 --> 0:06:17.000 be and allow yourself this space to be is kind 0:06:17.040 --> 0:06:20.920 of a radical act of self acceptance. 0:06:21.400 --> 0:06:27.440 It is it is the basis of what's called liberation psychology. 0:06:28.000 --> 0:06:32.960 So liberation psychology requires that we pay attention to contexts. 0:06:33.400 --> 0:06:36.839 When people are ignoring contexts, they would say, the problem 0:06:36.920 --> 0:06:39.760 is just in your mind, like why don't you love 0:06:39.800 --> 0:06:43.160 your body? Why don't you love your face? Why don't 0:06:43.200 --> 0:06:45.919 you love your hair, as if you have just created 0:06:46.040 --> 0:06:52.200 these thoughts in the abstract, as opposed to the powerful 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:56.840 messaging that gets sent forward that says you have to 0:06:56.880 --> 0:07:00.400 be something other than what you are to be love, 0:07:00.560 --> 0:07:06.400 to be worthy, to be respected, to be appreciated. And 0:07:06.520 --> 0:07:11.760 so when we dismantle those and we speak truth to 0:07:11.880 --> 0:07:14.400 the fact of of course, this is a struggle for 0:07:14.480 --> 0:07:17.640 you because there have been all of these systems set 0:07:17.720 --> 0:07:20.920 up to make you believe you are unworthy. 0:07:21.360 --> 0:07:23.160 So the fact that you wrestle. 0:07:22.880 --> 0:07:25.880 With it is not like, oh, you just need to 0:07:25.960 --> 0:07:29.960 love you. It's a as you name, it's a radical 0:07:30.520 --> 0:07:35.360 revolutionary act of resistance for me to push through all 0:07:35.440 --> 0:07:39.360 of these messages and say I still choose me, I 0:07:39.520 --> 0:07:40.680 still celebrate me. 0:07:41.160 --> 0:07:48.120 Yeah, and you've just illuminated something for me. I wonder. 0:07:48.240 --> 0:07:50.240 I would imagine you've had this a lot, because you're 0:07:50.280 --> 0:07:53.679 such a profound speaker and a profound writer and such 0:07:54.560 --> 0:07:57.600 a top tier academic that you also have the research 0:07:57.720 --> 0:08:00.800 to back up the poetry that you often give to 0:08:00.840 --> 0:08:04.320 the world. And many years ago I was asked what 0:08:04.400 --> 0:08:07.760 I would say to my younger self and what came 0:08:07.840 --> 0:08:09.920 to me, And I didn't realize how badly I needed 0:08:09.960 --> 0:08:12.360 to hear it until I said it out loud. Was 0:08:13.920 --> 0:08:18.680 worry less about being someone else's definition of enough. You 0:08:18.800 --> 0:08:25.160 already are. And I consider myself. You know, we talk 0:08:25.200 --> 0:08:27.000 a lot about privilege in the world, and we have 0:08:27.080 --> 0:08:31.440 to to begin to understand as you're referring to these 0:08:31.520 --> 0:08:36.480 systems that treat people differently. I consider myself to have 0:08:36.520 --> 0:08:38.800 had the great privilege of a lot of exposure to 0:08:38.880 --> 0:08:41.040 a lot of people who live different than me and 0:08:41.080 --> 0:08:43.640 look like do look different than me for my whole life. 0:08:44.760 --> 0:08:47.320 And one of the things in groups of women that 0:08:48.760 --> 0:08:50.880 you know we all do the work with when I 0:08:50.920 --> 0:08:53.040 look at women who look like me, who might be 0:08:53.120 --> 0:08:55.720 newer to some of these spaces, I just say, you 0:08:55.800 --> 0:08:57.720 know how hard it is to move through the world 0:08:57.760 --> 0:09:01.360 in your body as a woman. Imagine how hard it 0:09:01.400 --> 0:09:05.520 is for my best friend Nia, for doctor Tama, who 0:09:05.520 --> 0:09:08.040 I say with today, for the other women in our 0:09:08.160 --> 0:09:10.760 circles that we know to move through the world as 0:09:10.800 --> 0:09:14.640 women and as black women, or Brown women or South 0:09:14.679 --> 0:09:19.880 Asian women, like the piling on of what you have 0:09:20.000 --> 0:09:26.280 to squeeze through. You don't get to be passing in 0:09:26.360 --> 0:09:29.920 any way. You don't get to take off your identity. 0:09:30.760 --> 0:09:34.120 And it's why I think when we have to ask 0:09:34.160 --> 0:09:36.600 people to look deeper. Even when you talk about loving 0:09:36.640 --> 0:09:39.760 your hair, you know the idea that there could be 0:09:39.840 --> 0:09:43.760 resistance to the Crown Act, to a law that says 0:09:43.760 --> 0:09:47.440 you cannot discriminate against your employees for how they wear 0:09:47.480 --> 0:09:52.560 their hair. Yes, people who haven't experienced it don't realize 0:09:52.600 --> 0:09:56.319 it's part of the menu of microaggressions that you're being 0:09:57.320 --> 0:10:05.520 faced with every day. And so I wish and I 0:10:05.520 --> 0:10:09.160 think part of the reason I always cherish finding you 0:10:09.520 --> 0:10:12.800 in the sphere of what my algorithm serves to me 0:10:12.840 --> 0:10:15.040 when I pick up my phone, it always knows I 0:10:15.080 --> 0:10:18.240 want to hear from you, is that you're reminding us 0:10:18.280 --> 0:10:21.839 all instead of competing in the I'm more hurt than 0:10:21.880 --> 0:10:27.480 you Olympics, to say I know what hurt is. How 0:10:27.520 --> 0:10:29.800 can I acknowledge my own and how can I be 0:10:29.920 --> 0:10:34.640 sensitive to the different kinds of hurt that exists in 0:10:34.679 --> 0:10:36.720 the people around me? So maybe we can all heal 0:10:36.800 --> 0:10:41.920 together and I think it's a profound practice for humans, 0:10:42.520 --> 0:10:47.000 and in a moment like this, it's an incredibly important 0:10:47.040 --> 0:10:50.720 awareness to carry as we try to push back against 0:10:50.720 --> 0:10:57.359 this pendulum swing back into deep, overt, cruel, systemic oppression. 0:10:58.520 --> 0:11:02.360 So you're doing heart work, You're doing like nation saving 0:11:02.440 --> 0:11:03.360 work as. 0:11:03.200 --> 0:11:09.600 Well as Yeah, it really is about recognizing how much 0:11:10.160 --> 0:11:14.640 our liberation is intertwined. And when we don't see that, 0:11:14.840 --> 0:11:20.120 we treat it like a competition, which then says you 0:11:20.440 --> 0:11:23.720 have to be erased so that I can be seen. 0:11:24.520 --> 0:11:28.200 And when people act like that, then it is the 0:11:28.600 --> 0:11:32.760 misperception that if you have a month, or you have 0:11:32.840 --> 0:11:36.600 a day, or you have a speaker, that somehow that 0:11:36.840 --> 0:11:40.280 is an attack on me, instead of I love that 0:11:40.360 --> 0:11:42.640 phrase of the sky is big enough for all the 0:11:42.679 --> 0:11:43.679 stars to shine. 0:11:44.280 --> 0:11:47.280 So there is room to talk about all of our 0:11:47.360 --> 0:11:50.480 histories which are interwoven. There is room to talk about 0:11:50.559 --> 0:11:55.840 our literature, our art, our beauty, our contributions, our wisdoms, 0:11:56.240 --> 0:11:57.640 our spiritualities. 0:11:58.360 --> 0:12:02.520 There is space. And so it is that scarcity mindset 0:12:03.160 --> 0:12:08.200 and agreed mindset that says there will only be room 0:12:08.280 --> 0:12:10.079 for one and that one must be me. 0:12:11.960 --> 0:12:15.959 Yeah, it strikes me because you are able to hold 0:12:16.360 --> 0:12:20.000 all of these things. You are a professional at the dialectics, 0:12:20.559 --> 0:12:22.840 you understand all of these things can be true at 0:12:22.880 --> 0:12:28.080 the same time. And to be the psychologist that you 0:12:28.160 --> 0:12:32.720 are and come from a deep generational faith tradition in 0:12:32.800 --> 0:12:35.520 your family to be both a psychologist and a minister. 0:12:36.000 --> 0:12:41.040 So many people assume that faith and science are diametrically 0:12:41.040 --> 0:12:46.160 opposed instead of actually, when the scope is widened, able 0:12:46.200 --> 0:12:50.440 to hold and support one another. How did you How 0:12:50.440 --> 0:12:53.200 did you get here? When did it click for you 0:12:53.440 --> 0:12:57.760 entering into academia or as a young student that you 0:12:57.920 --> 0:13:01.280 wanted to carry both of these worlds together. 0:13:01.880 --> 0:13:08.480 Yeah, it feels more true, more real, more authentic to me, 0:13:09.200 --> 0:13:11.920 instead of what we would call the false dichotomy. 0:13:12.440 --> 0:13:16.440 Right of which one are you? Do you appreciate science 0:13:16.559 --> 0:13:19.520 or are you a spiritual person? And it's who said 0:13:19.559 --> 0:13:23.280 I had to choose because if I'm a spiritual person, 0:13:23.760 --> 0:13:27.440 then I understand the lessons that are encoded in nature. 0:13:28.120 --> 0:13:33.640 And if I sit and appreciate the observations, then I 0:13:33.760 --> 0:13:40.880 understand the sacred can work through my being as a psychologist. 0:13:41.440 --> 0:13:43.920 That it's not an either or like are you going 0:13:44.000 --> 0:13:46.720 to pray or go to therapy? You can pray your 0:13:46.720 --> 0:13:47.520 way to therapy. 0:13:47.720 --> 0:13:50.720 You can pray therapy, you can pray after therapy. 0:13:51.640 --> 0:14:01.240 So rejecting and resisting these false choice is and I 0:14:01.240 --> 0:14:03.640 would say, you know, a part of that is from 0:14:04.480 --> 0:14:10.120 an afrocentric perspective is fundamentally being holistic. And so we're 0:14:10.120 --> 0:14:14.120 holistic and we honor the mind, the body, the heart, 0:14:14.360 --> 0:14:20.000 the spirit, the community. And I used to live these 0:14:20.080 --> 0:14:23.200 kind of separate sels. So when I was with my 0:14:23.600 --> 0:14:26.160 spiritual friends, then that's what I would talk about. When 0:14:26.200 --> 0:14:28.760 I was with my artsy friends, then we talk about 0:14:28.880 --> 0:14:31.880 dance and poetry. When I was with my academic folks, 0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:35.120 and we would talk about the latest articles. And I 0:14:35.160 --> 0:14:41.200 will say I did not maximize and I'm still not 0:14:41.280 --> 0:14:45.440 at the maximum, but I did not maximize my possibility 0:14:46.200 --> 0:14:51.560 until I started integrating those multiple cells. And when I 0:14:51.720 --> 0:14:55.640 did that and showed up as my authentic self, it 0:14:55.880 --> 0:15:00.520 freed and liberated and gave other people permission to say 0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:05.200 me too. So, for example, I was a past president 0:15:05.280 --> 0:15:09.560 for the Society of the Psychology of Women, and you know, 0:15:09.600 --> 0:15:13.000 a big part of that work is around feminist psychology. 0:15:13.880 --> 0:15:16.320 And so when you're president, we have a budget and 0:15:16.360 --> 0:15:19.960 you can set different initiatives, And one of the initiatives 0:15:20.000 --> 0:15:26.000 that I did was on women's psychology, Spirituality, religion and faith. 0:15:26.840 --> 0:15:31.320 And before I did that initiative, there was kind of 0:15:31.360 --> 0:15:36.000 this unspoken rule that feminists would be against any kind 0:15:36.040 --> 0:15:40.400 of religious tradition because of patriarchy and the oppression of 0:15:40.400 --> 0:15:43.880 women in violence against women. And so when I announced 0:15:43.880 --> 0:15:46.720 the initiative, we had like a break in the board 0:15:46.760 --> 0:15:49.800 meeting and a number of board members came up to 0:15:49.840 --> 0:15:55.080 me and we're whispering, saying, I'm episcopalia in there, I'm Catholic, 0:15:55.720 --> 0:16:00.280 I'm Jewish, and it's like, why are we whispering? It 0:16:00.360 --> 0:16:06.119 is believing the falsehood that in order for my politic 0:16:06.280 --> 0:16:09.480 to be important to me, I had to have surrendered 0:16:09.480 --> 0:16:12.400 my faith, and it's just not true. 0:16:12.720 --> 0:16:17.760 And so it's been beautiful to be a bridge. 0:16:18.880 --> 0:16:23.240 To create spaces and hold spaces where we can be 0:16:24.120 --> 0:16:27.960 our totality, the fullness of who we are, and not 0:16:28.040 --> 0:16:31.080 have to leave parts of ourselves in the margins. 0:16:31.640 --> 0:16:37.560 Yeah. Well, and what strikes me is so important about 0:16:38.280 --> 0:16:43.120 beginning to unify spaces like that again, is it actually 0:16:43.200 --> 0:16:45.920 gives room for them not only to evolve, but to 0:16:46.040 --> 0:16:49.720 reclaim their full selves. Yes, you know, I grew up 0:16:49.720 --> 0:16:53.560 in a family full of Catholics, Jews, and atheists, so 0:16:53.760 --> 0:16:56.920 our holiday dinners are wild as you can imagine. You know, 0:16:57.400 --> 0:16:59.920 by the time I got to college, I'd already spent 0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:02.960 you know, time taking college courses on Islamic studies. I 0:17:03.040 --> 0:17:06.800 really wanted to understand, you know, how are all these 0:17:06.840 --> 0:17:12.560 faith traditions so intertwined. And for me, it's never lost 0:17:12.600 --> 0:17:16.719 on me that when the faith tradition, whatever religion it is, 0:17:17.240 --> 0:17:20.560 also becomes a business and there's profit to be made, 0:17:20.680 --> 0:17:24.359 then the faith tradition becomes more patriarchal. Women are cut 0:17:24.359 --> 0:17:28.399 out of leadership, often cut out of text, and the 0:17:28.520 --> 0:17:34.600 energy changes. And so to your point about an afrocentric 0:17:34.840 --> 0:17:42.280 methodology of being, to become more holistically feminist, more holistically 0:17:42.880 --> 0:17:49.040 community centered, more holistically devout. In filling the blank faith, 0:17:49.800 --> 0:17:54.639 you actually become more inclusive. Yes, yes, And it's like 0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:58.520 it's like we've gotten stuck in our human experience down 0:17:58.560 --> 0:18:02.000 here in the weeds, and we're forgetting that there's a 0:18:02.200 --> 0:18:08.679 whole you know, canopy that we're meant to understand and 0:18:08.800 --> 0:18:09.840 navigate together. 0:18:10.440 --> 0:18:19.200 Yeah, So that reclamation, the decolonization, the deconstruction you know, 0:18:19.400 --> 0:18:24.359 what are the lies the myths that we were presented 0:18:24.440 --> 0:18:29.000 with as truth and as absolute and give ourselves space 0:18:29.119 --> 0:18:33.080 to interrogate that and to mean it's not that I 0:18:33.160 --> 0:18:36.520 have to throw away the whole thing. I throw away 0:18:36.520 --> 0:18:38.560 the version of it that was given to me that 0:18:38.640 --> 0:18:43.000 dishonored me. Yeah, I tap in two. There are a 0:18:43.080 --> 0:18:48.520 whole tradition of people before me who were committed to 0:18:48.520 --> 0:18:53.920 we say liberation theology. What frees us, what lifts us, 0:18:53.480 --> 0:18:58.280 What actually allows me to enter into spaces and feel 0:18:58.359 --> 0:19:02.120 loved there and feel seen? And if I have never 0:19:02.359 --> 0:19:05.239 entered into such a space, how do I create that? 0:19:05.760 --> 0:19:07.800 To create sacred space, we would. 0:19:07.560 --> 0:19:10.879 Say, even on your podcast right now, this can be 0:19:11.160 --> 0:19:16.200 holy ground, This can be sanctuary and we are deserving 0:19:16.600 --> 0:19:16.840 of that. 0:19:18.040 --> 0:19:31.880 Wow. And now a word from our wonderful sponsors. The idea. 0:19:32.640 --> 0:19:36.280 It's a big topic, right how to how to unify 0:19:36.359 --> 0:19:39.840 the world, make people treat each other more holistically, less competitively. 0:19:41.880 --> 0:19:45.159 We would be remiss not to put it in the 0:19:45.160 --> 0:19:47.800 context of what's currently happening in our country. You know, 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:52.520 this backswing as we were discussing earlier into this, you know, 0:19:52.760 --> 0:20:01.960 very right wing discriminatory fascism, and everything you're saying perfectly 0:20:02.000 --> 0:20:04.600 fits over the scope of the world, but also of 0:20:04.640 --> 0:20:10.879 the internal world of one of an individual. And I 0:20:10.920 --> 0:20:14.000 think in periods like this where the world at large 0:20:14.040 --> 0:20:18.359 feels so traumatizing to so many people, people are trying 0:20:18.400 --> 0:20:24.720 to manage stress. They are absolutely overwhelmed. It's chronic. How 0:20:24.800 --> 0:20:31.160 do you begin to give whether it's like you said, 0:20:31.200 --> 0:20:34.800 your mentees or clients or folks who you talk to online, 0:20:35.440 --> 0:20:39.040 how do you help people get to the tip of 0:20:39.080 --> 0:20:42.960 the spear, put that first poke in the veil and 0:20:43.040 --> 0:20:45.720 start to see what's on the other side. Where do 0:20:45.800 --> 0:20:48.359 you tell folks to begin? 0:20:49.160 --> 0:20:54.639 Yeah, such an important question, especially in the times we 0:20:54.840 --> 0:20:59.320 are living in. It's necessary and so I use the 0:20:59.400 --> 0:21:03.520 term home coming to come to myself is to tell 0:21:03.560 --> 0:21:07.200 myself the truth. And when I tell myself the truth, 0:21:07.760 --> 0:21:12.600 I don't have to censor, judge, or apologize for what 0:21:12.680 --> 0:21:13.240 I feel. 0:21:14.000 --> 0:21:14.440 And so. 0:21:15.920 --> 0:21:20.160 With that in mind, for those who see the landscape 0:21:20.280 --> 0:21:24.480 and are exhausted, that makes sense speak that this is exhausting, 0:21:24.960 --> 0:21:28.800 for those who are disappointed, for those who are outraged. 0:21:29.920 --> 0:21:32.920 You know, sometimes people present this notion that to have 0:21:33.200 --> 0:21:36.200 to be mentally or spiritually well like you're just in 0:21:36.240 --> 0:21:39.639 this place of not being moved by anything, there's some 0:21:39.720 --> 0:21:44.560 outrageous things happening. So a healthy response is actually outrage. 0:21:45.040 --> 0:21:48.760 It means that I recognize that things are out of order, 0:21:49.359 --> 0:21:54.160 that people are being dishonored, that people are being dehumanized. 0:21:54.720 --> 0:21:59.680 And so you know, I would start with allow yourself 0:21:59.760 --> 0:22:04.720 to feel it. Tell yourself and those within your circle 0:22:04.800 --> 0:22:09.120 who you trust, what is stirred up for you in 0:22:09.160 --> 0:22:13.000 this season. Because what we often do, and this is 0:22:13.480 --> 0:22:16.159 again you know, from this capitalist notion of like I 0:22:16.200 --> 0:22:19.000 have to be on and perform and because I'm measured 0:22:19.000 --> 0:22:22.960 by my labor, is then we pretend how are you 0:22:23.080 --> 0:22:27.800 I'm fine and you I'm fine, right, So we shake 0:22:27.960 --> 0:22:30.200 that up. We disrupt that by. 0:22:30.400 --> 0:22:36.280 How are you? I'm mad? How are you? I'm disappointed? 0:22:36.640 --> 0:22:37.199 How were you? 0:22:37.560 --> 0:22:41.520 I'm tired? How are you I'm confused about the way forward? 0:22:41.720 --> 0:22:44.080 Oh you too, Yeah, I'm trying to figure it out too. 0:22:44.920 --> 0:22:50.560 So our truth sets us free, and that also allows 0:22:50.640 --> 0:22:54.800 us to mobilize, because you cannot respond to something you 0:22:54.880 --> 0:23:00.399 do not acknowledge. And then it's for us to step 0:23:00.480 --> 0:23:05.600 out of these silos of only fighting for my small group. 0:23:06.160 --> 0:23:10.160 Because as long as we are divided and see each 0:23:10.240 --> 0:23:15.639 other as enemy or competition, then we are disempowered. But 0:23:16.080 --> 0:23:21.120 you know, successful movements happen when they are intergenerational, when 0:23:21.119 --> 0:23:25.600 they are intercultural, when people show up from all over 0:23:25.840 --> 0:23:29.160 all over the place, and the ways in which things 0:23:29.200 --> 0:23:36.840 are moving tap into that necessity. Can I see your 0:23:36.960 --> 0:23:40.800 struggle and see mine versus? What has happened is people 0:23:40.960 --> 0:23:45.560 thought some people thought that this would not affect them, 0:23:45.680 --> 0:23:49.040 so they were comfortable with it. It's like, Oh, if 0:23:49.040 --> 0:23:52.480 it's only going to affect the undocumented, I'm okay. Or 0:23:52.520 --> 0:23:55.959 if it's only going to affect LGBTQ, I'm okay. And 0:23:56.040 --> 0:23:59.560 so then as it continues to roll out and gets 0:23:59.600 --> 0:24:03.760 closer to people's front door, then it's like, oh. 0:24:03.480 --> 0:24:06.280 Wait, what are we going to do about this? Yeah? 0:24:06.359 --> 0:24:07.840 What are we going to do about this? 0:24:10.960 --> 0:24:16.400 Do you think that? And I ask because I don't 0:24:16.440 --> 0:24:20.320 think it's easy to find people who would readily say, oh, 0:24:20.359 --> 0:24:24.879 I assumed this would just affect these people. But do 0:24:24.920 --> 0:24:29.160 you think the human I don't want to say tendency, 0:24:29.200 --> 0:24:33.000 but perhaps frequent human pattern of Oh, if it's just 0:24:33.040 --> 0:24:35.640 happening over there, then me and mine are all right. 0:24:36.960 --> 0:24:41.760 Do you think that comes from the kind of generational 0:24:41.880 --> 0:24:45.119 truth that we carry that humanity has come with such 0:24:45.720 --> 0:24:50.320 violence and such cruelty and such terror, as it has 0:24:50.359 --> 0:24:55.040 also innovated and created and done beautiful things in the world. 0:24:55.400 --> 0:25:01.000 Do you think humans have an inherent that can be 0:25:01.080 --> 0:25:08.280 so powerful that they can run from collective reality? 0:25:09.920 --> 0:25:13.120 I think instead of it being inherent, I actually think 0:25:13.160 --> 0:25:21.160 it's taught, and that people are taught that these people, 0:25:22.080 --> 0:25:25.680 whichever however we want to label them, are the problem, 0:25:26.160 --> 0:25:29.479 that they're the reason you're not succeeding, that they're the 0:25:29.480 --> 0:25:32.879 ones that are taking your jobs, that they're the ones 0:25:32.960 --> 0:25:39.000 that are ruining our neighborhood. And so it is. It 0:25:39.080 --> 0:25:44.080 is taught, and then it is repeated. And so the 0:25:44.200 --> 0:25:47.400 excuse people will give, they won't say I don't care 0:25:47.480 --> 0:25:50.280 about them. They'll say, this is going to be good 0:25:50.320 --> 0:25:55.640 for the economy, right, They'll say that, you know, I'm 0:25:55.680 --> 0:26:01.000 making a financial decision, and so this is gonna be 0:26:01.320 --> 0:26:04.680 and then like, oh, well, the price of eggs, well, 0:26:04.680 --> 0:26:08.520 the price of brig well, the employment, uh you know. 0:26:09.040 --> 0:26:14.639 But but what people have to wrestle with is actually 0:26:14.760 --> 0:26:19.040 none of what is being done was a secret or hidden. 0:26:20.160 --> 0:26:24.840 It was announced, and so uh so people were fine 0:26:24.880 --> 0:26:28.200 with it. They were fine with it. They were fine 0:26:28.200 --> 0:26:31.880 with the agenda because they thought, I'm going to get 0:26:31.960 --> 0:26:34.199 rich and we're going to get rid of all the 0:26:34.240 --> 0:26:41.560 bad people. And uh, you know it has been I 0:26:41.600 --> 0:26:48.439 would say maybe throughout our history, our societal history of 0:26:48.600 --> 0:26:56.240 convincing impoverished and middle income people that they will benefit. Uh, 0:26:56.359 --> 0:27:00.840 the more wealthy people are happy because as long as 0:27:00.840 --> 0:27:05.160 you can see someone is beneath you, then you're gonna 0:27:05.200 --> 0:27:11.040 do great. And it is a historical lesson that people 0:27:11.119 --> 0:27:16.000 have to continue to learn that some people who claim 0:27:16.080 --> 0:27:19.680 to be for me or not for me, and some 0:27:19.800 --> 0:27:23.120 people who have been presented to me as my enemies 0:27:23.600 --> 0:27:27.160 are actually my greatest potential allies. 0:27:27.800 --> 0:27:35.080 Yeah. Yeah, some of the studies confuse me. I remember, 0:27:35.920 --> 0:27:40.720 you know, the guys the rules of economic anxiety, and 0:27:40.760 --> 0:27:42.760 we all know what that is, as you've just so 0:27:42.880 --> 0:27:48.159 eloquently explained. There was a maybe it was around the midterms, 0:27:49.280 --> 0:27:52.280 a study that came out talking about how they would 0:27:52.320 --> 0:27:54.399 give these examples to people and say, well, you and 0:27:54.440 --> 0:27:57.000 all your coworkers can make eighty thousand dollars a year, 0:27:57.800 --> 0:28:00.520 or you can make one hundred thousand dollar a year, 0:28:00.560 --> 0:28:02.520 but those four guys on your team are actually going 0:28:02.600 --> 0:28:05.439 to make one hundred and twenty because they're technically doing 0:28:06.000 --> 0:28:08.639 things in the office that are more management level than you. 0:28:09.400 --> 0:28:11.840 But you know, twenty thousand dollar rais for you and 0:28:11.920 --> 0:28:14.600 forty thousand dollar rays for them. And most people said no, 0:28:14.640 --> 0:28:18.480 we should all make eighty, even though that gave them less. 0:28:19.400 --> 0:28:24.080 And I was fascinated by why do we want to 0:28:24.119 --> 0:28:27.399 compete instead of all continue to succeed? Why do you 0:28:27.440 --> 0:28:31.000 want to hold yourself and you and your coworker back 0:28:31.119 --> 0:28:34.120 instead of watch them soar and then earn your way 0:28:34.160 --> 0:28:38.480 into soaring. And when we start to look at all this, 0:28:39.680 --> 0:28:46.680 you know, the need to withhold from others is often 0:28:46.720 --> 0:28:52.479 the root of what hurts us. And we see it 0:28:52.560 --> 0:28:57.640