1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to work in progress. Hi, 2 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: friends and listeners. I am absolutely elated today to be 3 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:23,640 Speaker 1: joined by someone that I look up to learn from, 4 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:27,680 Speaker 1: am in awe of, and honestly who gives me so 5 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:32,919 Speaker 1: much inspiration, such reminders to be courageous, and also often 6 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 1: helps me give myself permission to be a little more 7 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:40,560 Speaker 1: patient with my life. Today's guest is doctor Tama Bryant. 8 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:44,920 Speaker 1: She is a psychologist, author, professor, sacred artist, and minister 9 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:49,600 Speaker 1: who is leading the way in creating healthy relationships, healing traumas, 10 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 1: and overcoming stress and depression. And she manages to do 11 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 1: it with an energy and a smile and a voice 12 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 1: that makes everyone around her take it deep, breath, lean in, 13 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:04,760 Speaker 1: and feel seen. Doctor Tema is the author of the 14 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:08,679 Speaker 1: newly released book Matters of the Heart, which aims to 15 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 1: empower readers to connect with themselves and others, delving into 16 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 1: topics like control issues, emotional and availability, and relationships both 17 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 1: with others and with ourselves. Her first book, Homecoming, came 18 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 1: out in twenty twenty two, and I know so many 19 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 1: of us needed it, loved it, cherished it. This book, 20 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 1: Matters of the Heart is absolutely beautiful. It draws on 21 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: the wisdom of science and sacredness lived experience, and helps 22 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:41,639 Speaker 1: readers tend to, as doctor Tama calls it, the garden 23 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:44,560 Speaker 1: of their hearts. She encourages us to build our best 24 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: relational lives because love is not a level playing field, 25 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:51,640 Speaker 1: and improving your relationship with yourself is the first step 26 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 1: in leveling the field and living a life that brings 27 00:01:55,280 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 1: you joy. Let's dive in with doctor Tama. Doctor Tamin, 28 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 1: I'm just elated to have you here, and I sort 29 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 1: of feel like my favorite first question to ask everyone 30 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:19,520 Speaker 1: goes a layer deeper because today I get to ask 31 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:23,080 Speaker 1: it of you. So much of your research helps us 32 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:28,080 Speaker 1: understand our connection to ourselves. And when I sit with 33 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:31,520 Speaker 1: someone like yourself who has these lists of accolades and 34 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:34,959 Speaker 1: incredible you know, books published and all of these things, 35 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:40,279 Speaker 1: I'm always curious, if you could bend the spacetime continuum 36 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 1: and sit across from yourself at eight or nine years old, 37 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 1: if you would see the woman that you are today 38 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 1: in that little girl. And I think I'm particularly thrilled 39 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 1: to hear your answer because so much of what you're 40 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 1: doing in the new book is helping us understand and 41 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 1: how the younger versions of ourselves affect who we are today. 42 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:10,080 Speaker 1: So all of that said and no pressure, but I 43 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 1: can't wait to hear how you would feel with your 44 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 1: nine year. 45 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 2: Old Yes, I love that question. 46 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:22,240 Speaker 3: And to my nine year old self, I would say 47 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 3: something I commonly say today to clients, to mintees, to 48 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:33,919 Speaker 3: social media, and that is you are worthy. You are worthy, 49 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 3: You are worthy. There are so many messages that bombard 50 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 3: us from very early on, especially as girls and as women, 51 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 3: to feel insufficient, inadequate, to feel that we have to 52 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 3: be something we are not, to believe that we are 53 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 3: not enough. And so I would say to the nine 54 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 3: year old me, you are more more than enough, you 55 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 3: are worthy, and you will align with people who see you, 56 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 3: so don't lose sight of yourself. Yeah, yeah, And I 57 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 3: do want to say there are different domains of self esteem, 58 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 3: different areas of self esteem. So academically I was an 59 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:28,040 Speaker 3: a student and felt very good about that, and then 60 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 3: in terms of like gifts or talents, I love dancing 61 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 3: and poetry and felt very positive about that. But then 62 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 3: when we get to the realities of sexism and racism, 63 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:45,600 Speaker 3: they do a number on the self esteem, the body image, 64 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 3: the social esteem of ourselves when you feel like you 65 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 3: are not chosen or not sufficient, and so when you've 66 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 3: had those experiences of and it can result in you breadcrumbing, 67 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 3: accepting the minimum, not being aware that you're deserving of 68 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 3: the feast, even if the feast has not yet shown that. 69 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:20,280 Speaker 1: M Yeah, that's a big one, right. The idea that 70 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 1: you are worthy of being patient with your life, because 71 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 1: there's a lot of talk about oh, you're worthy of this, 72 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 1: and how can you love another person if you don't 73 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 1: love yourself, and it all feels a little bumper stickery 74 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:34,479 Speaker 1: to me. 75 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 3: Yes. 76 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:42,039 Speaker 1: And the notion that you can be sure you deserve 77 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 1: something you haven't seen yet, but you know it exists 78 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 1: because you've certainly seen other people find it. That's a 79 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:58,839 Speaker 1: kind of nuance and a layered ability to look at 80 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:02,720 Speaker 1: time differently that I don't think we are encouraged to 81 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 1: focus on, especially as women and especially in a capitalist 82 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 1: world where productivity is sort of treated as sacred. To 83 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 1: be and allow yourself this space to be is kind 84 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:20,920 Speaker 1: of a radical act of self acceptance. 85 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 3: It is it is the basis of what's called liberation psychology. 86 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 3: So liberation psychology requires that we pay attention to contexts. 87 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:36,839 Speaker 3: When people are ignoring contexts, they would say, the problem 88 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 3: is just in your mind, like why don't you love 89 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:43,160 Speaker 3: your body? Why don't you love your face? Why don't 90 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:45,919 Speaker 3: you love your hair, as if you have just created 91 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 3: these thoughts in the abstract, as opposed to the powerful 92 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:56,840 Speaker 3: messaging that gets sent forward that says you have to 93 00:06:56,880 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 3: be something other than what you are to be love, 94 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 3: to be worthy, to be respected, to be appreciated. And 95 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 3: so when we dismantle those and we speak truth to 96 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 3: the fact of of course, this is a struggle for 97 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 3: you because there have been all of these systems set 98 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 3: up to make you believe you are unworthy. 99 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 2: So the fact that you wrestle. 100 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 3: With it is not like, oh, you just need to 101 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 3: love you. It's a as you name, it's a radical 102 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 3: revolutionary act of resistance for me to push through all 103 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 3: of these messages and say I still choose me, I 104 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 3: still celebrate me. 105 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you've just illuminated something for me. I wonder. 106 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 1: I would imagine you've had this a lot, because you're 107 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:53,679 Speaker 1: such a profound speaker and a profound writer and such 108 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 1: a top tier academic that you also have the research 109 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 1: to back up the poetry that you often give to 110 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 1: the world. And many years ago I was asked what 111 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 1: I would say to my younger self and what came 112 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 1: to me, And I didn't realize how badly I needed 113 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 1: to hear it until I said it out loud. Was 114 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:18,680 Speaker 1: worry less about being someone else's definition of enough. You 115 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 1: already are. And I consider myself. You know, we talk 116 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 1: a lot about privilege in the world, and we have 117 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 1: to to begin to understand as you're referring to these 118 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 1: systems that treat people differently. I consider myself to have 119 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 1: had the great privilege of a lot of exposure to 120 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 1: a lot of people who live different than me and 121 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 1: look like do look different than me for my whole life. 122 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:47,320 Speaker 1: And one of the things in groups of women that 123 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 1: you know we all do the work with when I 124 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 1: look at women who look like me, who might be 125 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:55,720 Speaker 1: newer to some of these spaces, I just say, you 126 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:57,720 Speaker 1: know how hard it is to move through the world 127 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 1: in your body as a woman. Imagine how hard it 128 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:05,520 Speaker 1: is for my best friend Nia, for doctor Tama, who 129 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 1: I say with today, for the other women in our 130 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 1: circles that we know to move through the world as 131 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 1: women and as black women, or Brown women or South 132 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 1: Asian women, like the piling on of what you have 133 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 1: to squeeze through. You don't get to be passing in 134 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 1: any way. You don't get to take off your identity. 135 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 1: And it's why I think when we have to ask 136 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 1: people to look deeper. Even when you talk about loving 137 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 1: your hair, you know the idea that there could be 138 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 1: resistance to the Crown Act, to a law that says 139 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:47,440 Speaker 1: you cannot discriminate against your employees for how they wear 140 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:52,560 Speaker 1: their hair. Yes, people who haven't experienced it don't realize 141 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:56,319 Speaker 1: it's part of the menu of microaggressions that you're being 142 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 1: faced with every day. And so I wish and I 143 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 1: think part of the reason I always cherish finding you 144 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 1: in the sphere of what my algorithm serves to me 145 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 1: when I pick up my phone, it always knows I 146 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 1: want to hear from you, is that you're reminding us 147 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:21,839 Speaker 1: all instead of competing in the I'm more hurt than 148 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 1: you Olympics, to say I know what hurt is. How 149 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 1: can I acknowledge my own and how can I be 150 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:34,640 Speaker 1: sensitive to the different kinds of hurt that exists in 151 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:36,720 Speaker 1: the people around me? So maybe we can all heal 152 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 1: together and I think it's a profound practice for humans, 153 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:47,000 Speaker 1: and in a moment like this, it's an incredibly important 154 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:50,720 Speaker 1: awareness to carry as we try to push back against 155 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:57,359 Speaker 1: this pendulum swing back into deep, overt, cruel, systemic oppression. 156 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 1: So you're doing heart work, You're doing like nation saving 157 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 1: work as. 158 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:09,600 Speaker 3: Well as Yeah, it really is about recognizing how much 159 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 3: our liberation is intertwined. And when we don't see that, 160 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 3: we treat it like a competition, which then says you 161 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:23,720 Speaker 3: have to be erased so that I can be seen. 162 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:28,200 Speaker 3: And when people act like that, then it is the 163 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 3: misperception that if you have a month, or you have 164 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:36,600 Speaker 3: a day, or you have a speaker, that somehow that 165 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 3: is an attack on me, instead of I love that 166 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 3: phrase of the sky is big enough for all the 167 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:43,679 Speaker 3: stars to shine. 168 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:47,280 Speaker 2: So there is room to talk about all of our 169 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:50,480 Speaker 2: histories which are interwoven. There is room to talk about 170 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 2: our literature, our art, our beauty, our contributions, our wisdoms, 171 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:57,640 Speaker 2: our spiritualities. 172 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 3: There is space. And so it is that scarcity mindset 173 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:08,200 Speaker 3: and agreed mindset that says there will only be room 174 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:10,079 Speaker 3: for one and that one must be me. 175 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:15,959 Speaker 1: Yeah, it strikes me because you are able to hold 176 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 1: all of these things. You are a professional at the dialectics, 177 00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:22,840 Speaker 1: you understand all of these things can be true at 178 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:28,080 Speaker 1: the same time. And to be the psychologist that you 179 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:32,720 Speaker 1: are and come from a deep generational faith tradition in 180 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 1: your family to be both a psychologist and a minister. 181 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 1: So many people assume that faith and science are diametrically 182 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 1: opposed instead of actually, when the scope is widened, able 183 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:50,440 Speaker 1: to hold and support one another. How did you How 184 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:53,200 Speaker 1: did you get here? When did it click for you 185 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 1: entering into academia or as a young student that you 186 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 1: wanted to carry both of these worlds together. 187 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:08,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, it feels more true, more real, more authentic to me, 188 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 2: instead of what we would call the false dichotomy. 189 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:16,440 Speaker 3: Right of which one are you? Do you appreciate science 190 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 3: or are you a spiritual person? And it's who said 191 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 3: I had to choose because if I'm a spiritual person, 192 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:27,440 Speaker 3: then I understand the lessons that are encoded in nature. 193 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 3: And if I sit and appreciate the observations, then I 194 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 3: understand the sacred can work through my being as a psychologist. 195 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 3: That it's not an either or like are you going 196 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:46,720 Speaker 3: to pray or go to therapy? You can pray your 197 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 3: way to therapy. 198 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:50,720 Speaker 2: You can pray therapy, you can pray after therapy. 199 00:13:51,640 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 3: So rejecting and resisting these false choice is and I 200 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 3: would say, you know, a part of that is from 201 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 3: an afrocentric perspective is fundamentally being holistic. And so we're 202 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 3: holistic and we honor the mind, the body, the heart, 203 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 3: the spirit, the community. And I used to live these 204 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 3: kind of separate sels. So when I was with my 205 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 3: spiritual friends, then that's what I would talk about. When 206 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 3: I was with my artsy friends, then we talk about 207 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 3: dance and poetry. When I was with my academic folks, 208 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 3: and we would talk about the latest articles. And I 209 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 3: will say I did not maximize and I'm still not 210 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 3: at the maximum, but I did not maximize my possibility 211 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 3: until I started integrating those multiple cells. And when I 212 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 3: did that and showed up as my authentic self, it 213 00:14:55,880 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 3: freed and liberated and gave other people permission to say 214 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 3: me too. So, for example, I was a past president 215 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 3: for the Society of the Psychology of Women, and you know, 216 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 3: a big part of that work is around feminist psychology. 217 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:16,320 Speaker 3: And so when you're president, we have a budget and 218 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 3: you can set different initiatives, And one of the initiatives 219 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 3: that I did was on women's psychology, Spirituality, religion and faith. 220 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 3: And before I did that initiative, there was kind of 221 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 3: this unspoken rule that feminists would be against any kind 222 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 3: of religious tradition because of patriarchy and the oppression of 223 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:43,880 Speaker 3: women in violence against women. And so when I announced 224 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 3: the initiative, we had like a break in the board 225 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 3: meeting and a number of board members came up to 226 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 3: me and we're whispering, saying, I'm episcopalia in there, I'm Catholic, 227 00:15:55,720 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 3: I'm Jewish, and it's like, why are we whispering? It 228 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:06,119 Speaker 3: is believing the falsehood that in order for my politic 229 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:09,480 Speaker 3: to be important to me, I had to have surrendered 230 00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:12,400 Speaker 3: my faith, and it's just not true. 231 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 2: And so it's been beautiful to be a bridge. 232 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 3: To create spaces and hold spaces where we can be 233 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 3: our totality, the fullness of who we are, and not 234 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 3: have to leave parts of ourselves in the margins. 235 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and what strikes me is so important about 236 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 1: beginning to unify spaces like that again, is it actually 237 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 1: gives room for them not only to evolve, but to 238 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 1: reclaim their full selves. Yes, you know, I grew up 239 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 1: in a family full of Catholics, Jews, and atheists, so 240 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:56,920 Speaker 1: our holiday dinners are wild as you can imagine. You know, 241 00:16:57,400 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 1: by the time I got to college, I'd already spent 242 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 1: you know, time taking college courses on Islamic studies. I 243 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 1: really wanted to understand, you know, how are all these 244 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 1: faith traditions so intertwined. And for me, it's never lost 245 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:16,719 Speaker 1: on me that when the faith tradition, whatever religion it is, 246 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 1: also becomes a business and there's profit to be made, 247 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:24,359 Speaker 1: then the faith tradition becomes more patriarchal. Women are cut 248 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:28,399 Speaker 1: out of leadership, often cut out of text, and the 249 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 1: energy changes. And so to your point about an afrocentric 250 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 1: methodology of being, to become more holistically feminist, more holistically 251 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 1: community centered, more holistically devout. In filling the blank faith, 252 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:54,639 Speaker 1: you actually become more inclusive. Yes, yes, And it's like 253 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 1: it's like we've gotten stuck in our human experience down 254 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 1: here in the weeds, and we're forgetting that there's a 255 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:08,679 Speaker 1: whole you know, canopy that we're meant to understand and 256 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 1: navigate together. 257 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:19,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, So that reclamation, the decolonization, the deconstruction you know, 258 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:24,359 Speaker 3: what are the lies the myths that we were presented 259 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 3: with as truth and as absolute and give ourselves space 260 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 3: to interrogate that and to mean it's not that I 261 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:36,520 Speaker 3: have to throw away the whole thing. I throw away 262 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 3: the version of it that was given to me that 263 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 3: dishonored me. Yeah, I tap in two. There are a 264 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 3: whole tradition of people before me who were committed to 265 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:53,920 Speaker 3: we say liberation theology. What frees us, what lifts us, 266 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 3: What actually allows me to enter into spaces and feel 267 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:02,120 Speaker 3: loved there and feel seen? And if I have never 268 00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:05,239 Speaker 3: entered into such a space, how do I create that? 269 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 2: To create sacred space, we would. 270 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:10,879 Speaker 3: Say, even on your podcast right now, this can be 271 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:16,200 Speaker 3: holy ground, This can be sanctuary and we are deserving 272 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 3: of that. 273 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:31,880 Speaker 1: Wow. And now a word from our wonderful sponsors. The idea. 274 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 1: It's a big topic, right how to how to unify 275 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 1: the world, make people treat each other more holistically, less competitively. 276 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:45,159 Speaker 1: We would be remiss not to put it in the 277 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 1: context of what's currently happening in our country. You know, 278 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 1: this backswing as we were discussing earlier into this, you know, 279 00:19:52,760 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 1: very right wing discriminatory fascism, and everything you're saying perfectly 280 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 1: fits over the scope of the world, but also of 281 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:10,879 Speaker 1: the internal world of one of an individual. And I 282 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:14,000 Speaker 1: think in periods like this where the world at large 283 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:18,359 Speaker 1: feels so traumatizing to so many people, people are trying 284 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:24,720 Speaker 1: to manage stress. They are absolutely overwhelmed. It's chronic. How 285 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:31,160 Speaker 1: do you begin to give whether it's like you said, 286 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:34,800 Speaker 1: your mentees or clients or folks who you talk to online, 287 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:39,040 Speaker 1: how do you help people get to the tip of 288 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:42,960 Speaker 1: the spear, put that first poke in the veil and 289 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:45,720 Speaker 1: start to see what's on the other side. Where do 290 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:48,359 Speaker 1: you tell folks to begin? 291 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:54,639 Speaker 3: Yeah, such an important question, especially in the times we 292 00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 3: are living in. It's necessary and so I use the 293 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:03,520 Speaker 3: term home coming to come to myself is to tell 294 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:07,200 Speaker 3: myself the truth. And when I tell myself the truth, 295 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 3: I don't have to censor, judge, or apologize for what 296 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 3: I feel. 297 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:14,440 Speaker 2: And so. 298 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:20,160 Speaker 3: With that in mind, for those who see the landscape 299 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 3: and are exhausted, that makes sense speak that this is exhausting, 300 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:28,800 Speaker 3: for those who are disappointed, for those who are outraged. 301 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:32,920 Speaker 3: You know, sometimes people present this notion that to have 302 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:36,200 Speaker 3: to be mentally or spiritually well like you're just in 303 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:39,639 Speaker 3: this place of not being moved by anything, there's some 304 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 3: outrageous things happening. So a healthy response is actually outrage. 305 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 3: It means that I recognize that things are out of order, 306 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:54,160 Speaker 3: that people are being dishonored, that people are being dehumanized. 307 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:59,680 Speaker 3: And so you know, I would start with allow yourself 308 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 3: to feel it. Tell yourself and those within your circle 309 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:09,120 Speaker 3: who you trust, what is stirred up for you in 310 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 3: this season. Because what we often do, and this is 311 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,159 Speaker 3: again you know, from this capitalist notion of like I 312 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 3: have to be on and perform and because I'm measured 313 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:22,960 Speaker 3: by my labor, is then we pretend how are you 314 00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 3: I'm fine and you I'm fine, right, So we shake 315 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:30,200 Speaker 3: that up. We disrupt that by. 316 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:36,280 Speaker 2: How are you? I'm mad? How are you? I'm disappointed? 317 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:37,199 Speaker 2: How were you? 318 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 3: I'm tired? How are you I'm confused about the way forward? 319 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:44,080 Speaker 3: Oh you too, Yeah, I'm trying to figure it out too. 320 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:50,560 Speaker 3: So our truth sets us free, and that also allows 321 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 3: us to mobilize, because you cannot respond to something you 322 00:22:54,880 --> 00:23:00,399 Speaker 3: do not acknowledge. And then it's for us to step 323 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:05,600 Speaker 3: out of these silos of only fighting for my small group. 324 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:10,160 Speaker 3: Because as long as we are divided and see each 325 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:15,639 Speaker 3: other as enemy or competition, then we are disempowered. But 326 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:21,120 Speaker 3: you know, successful movements happen when they are intergenerational, when 327 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:25,600 Speaker 3: they are intercultural, when people show up from all over 328 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:29,160 Speaker 3: all over the place, and the ways in which things 329 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 3: are moving tap into that necessity. Can I see your 330 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:40,800 Speaker 3: struggle and see mine versus? What has happened is people 331 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:45,560 Speaker 3: thought some people thought that this would not affect them, 332 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:49,040 Speaker 3: so they were comfortable with it. It's like, Oh, if 333 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:52,480 Speaker 3: it's only going to affect the undocumented, I'm okay. Or 334 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,959 Speaker 3: if it's only going to affect LGBTQ, I'm okay. And 335 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 3: so then as it continues to roll out and gets 336 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:03,760 Speaker 3: closer to people's front door, then it's like, oh. 337 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 2: Wait, what are we going to do about this? Yeah? 338 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 2: What are we going to do about this? 339 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:16,400 Speaker 1: Do you think that? And I ask because I don't 340 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 1: think it's easy to find people who would readily say, oh, 341 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:24,879 Speaker 1: I assumed this would just affect these people. But do 342 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:29,160 Speaker 1: you think the human I don't want to say tendency, 343 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 1: but perhaps frequent human pattern of Oh, if it's just 344 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:35,640 Speaker 1: happening over there, then me and mine are all right. 345 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 1: Do you think that comes from the kind of generational 346 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:45,119 Speaker 1: truth that we carry that humanity has come with such 347 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 1: violence and such cruelty and such terror, as it has 348 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:55,040 Speaker 1: also innovated and created and done beautiful things in the world. 349 00:24:55,400 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 1: Do you think humans have an inherent that can be 350 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:08,280 Speaker 1: so powerful that they can run from collective reality? 351 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:13,120 Speaker 3: I think instead of it being inherent, I actually think 352 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:21,160 Speaker 3: it's taught, and that people are taught that these people, 353 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,680 Speaker 3: whichever however we want to label them, are the problem, 354 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:29,479 Speaker 3: that they're the reason you're not succeeding, that they're the 355 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:32,879 Speaker 3: ones that are taking your jobs, that they're the ones 356 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 3: that are ruining our neighborhood. And so it is. It 357 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 3: is taught, and then it is repeated. And so the 358 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:47,400 Speaker 3: excuse people will give, they won't say I don't care 359 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 3: about them. They'll say, this is going to be good 360 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:55,640 Speaker 3: for the economy, right, They'll say that, you know, I'm 361 00:25:55,680 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 3: making a financial decision, and so this is gonna be 362 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,680 Speaker 3: and then like, oh, well, the price of eggs, well, 363 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 3: the price of brig well, the employment, uh you know. 364 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:14,639 Speaker 3: But but what people have to wrestle with is actually 365 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 3: none of what is being done was a secret or hidden. 366 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:24,840 Speaker 3: It was announced, and so uh so people were fine 367 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:28,200 Speaker 3: with it. They were fine with it. They were fine 368 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:31,880 Speaker 3: with the agenda because they thought, I'm going to get 369 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:34,199 Speaker 3: rich and we're going to get rid of all the 370 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:41,560 Speaker 3: bad people. And uh, you know it has been I 371 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:48,439 Speaker 3: would say maybe throughout our history, our societal history of 372 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:56,240 Speaker 3: convincing impoverished and middle income people that they will benefit. Uh, 373 00:26:56,359 --> 00:27:00,840 Speaker 3: the more wealthy people are happy because as long as 374 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:05,160 Speaker 3: you can see someone is beneath you, then you're gonna 375 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 3: do great. And it is a historical lesson that people 376 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:16,000 Speaker 3: have to continue to learn that some people who claim 377 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,680 Speaker 3: to be for me or not for me, and some 378 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:23,120 Speaker 3: people who have been presented to me as my enemies 379 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:27,160 Speaker 3: are actually my greatest potential allies. 380 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, some of the studies confuse me. I remember, 381 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:40,720 Speaker 1: you know, the guys the rules of economic anxiety, and 382 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 1: we all know what that is, as you've just so 383 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:48,159 Speaker 1: eloquently explained. There was a maybe it was around the midterms, 384 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 1: a study that came out talking about how they would 385 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:54,399 Speaker 1: give these examples to people and say, well, you and 386 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 1: all your coworkers can make eighty thousand dollars a year, 387 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 1: or you can make one hundred thousand dollar a year, 388 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 1: but those four guys on your team are actually going 389 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:05,439 Speaker 1: to make one hundred and twenty because they're technically doing 390 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,639 Speaker 1: things in the office that are more management level than you. 391 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:11,840 Speaker 1: But you know, twenty thousand dollar rais for you and 392 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 1: forty thousand dollar rays for them. And most people said no, 393 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 1: we should all make eighty, even though that gave them less. 394 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 1: And I was fascinated by why do we want to 395 00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:27,399 Speaker 1: compete instead of all continue to succeed? Why do you 396 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:31,000 Speaker 1: want to hold yourself and you and your coworker back 397 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:34,120 Speaker 1: instead of watch them soar and then earn your way 398 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:38,480 Speaker 1: into soaring. And when we start to look at all this, 399 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 1: you know, the need to withhold from others is often 400 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:52,479 Speaker 1: the root of what hurts us. And we see it 401 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 1: happening in this wide landscape, and what happens without is 402 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 1: reflected within. And one of the things that gave me 403 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:07,280 Speaker 1: this moment of I kind of gasped when I read it, 404 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:09,680 Speaker 1: to be honest, when I started the book, And I'm 405 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 1: going to just like do the thing on the podcast 406 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 1: and hold up this beautiful book that you've given to 407 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:19,239 Speaker 1: us because a lot of people, I think, struggle with 408 00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:25,240 Speaker 1: having to learn or you should know this by now 409 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:26,920 Speaker 1: and then they have shame if they don't, so then 410 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 1: they don't want to learn anything about it. And we 411 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 1: see it a lot in the world of trying to 412 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 1: teach generational lessons and social justice and our history, especially 413 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,480 Speaker 1: as they're banning books. And when I picked up your 414 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:45,120 Speaker 1: book to get ready for today, I gasped really early 415 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:49,560 Speaker 1: when you said, if you want to read this book 416 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:54,880 Speaker 1: in the order of chapters that call to you, go ahead. 417 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:57,720 Speaker 1: I just ask that you do read all of it. 418 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 1: Never have I I've ever had a teacher at any 419 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 1: level of my personal or my academic life tell me 420 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 1: I could read the syllabus out of order. And I 421 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:11,120 Speaker 1: was like, I'm a forty two year old woman, and 422 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:12,440 Speaker 1: I was like, I just got a permission s lift 423 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:18,440 Speaker 1: to bring the rules. And it really it gave me 424 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:22,400 Speaker 1: joy that made me laugh in my kitchen. And then 425 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,960 Speaker 1: I went, wait a second, what if we did this 426 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:28,840 Speaker 1: more for each other out in the world and said 427 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 1: you might know this, but you might not know that. 428 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:33,840 Speaker 1: And here's just a thing I think you might want 429 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:37,240 Speaker 1: to know. Come to this at your own pace, come 430 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 1: to this in your own time. How did you get there, 431 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:46,080 Speaker 1: being as wise as you are about all of it? 432 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:49,280 Speaker 1: And the generations of all of it, and the connections 433 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:51,360 Speaker 1: of all of it, and why people say what they 434 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 1: do because they don't really want to say what they think, 435 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 1: and where the fear comes from, And I mean it's 436 00:30:56,080 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 1: the systems are big, and you manage to give a 437 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:05,920 Speaker 1: world of permission for every one of one person who 438 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 1: wants to grow with you. How did you figure out 439 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,800 Speaker 1: how to do that? And and was it that notion 440 00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:17,240 Speaker 1: of homecoming that opened it for you? 441 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:21,920 Speaker 3: It is thank you first of all for that example. 442 00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:26,920 Speaker 3: And I would say a part of what you know, 443 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:31,080 Speaker 3: I approached the writing as a as a clinician or 444 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:36,040 Speaker 3: as a healer and recognizing if someone looks in that 445 00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:40,200 Speaker 3: table of contents and it's about, you know, a chapter 446 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 3: in the back on healing after infidelity and they've just 447 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:46,920 Speaker 3: been cheated on, like they want to get there. They 448 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:51,200 Speaker 3: can't even hear the rest right or how to let 449 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:55,480 Speaker 3: go of someone who doesn't love you, Like that's that's 450 00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:57,960 Speaker 3: in the forefront of your heart, your mind, your spirit, 451 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:03,280 Speaker 3: And a part of you know, liberation work or womanist 452 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:08,760 Speaker 3: or feminist work is acknowledging the wisdom of the people 453 00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:13,080 Speaker 3: around the table. So like that other approach is to 454 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:17,040 Speaker 3: assume I know everything and you know nothing, and so 455 00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:21,920 Speaker 3: I'm going to instruct you. But instead right or you know, 456 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:26,200 Speaker 3: and that's not empowering. The empowerment is tap into your 457 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:30,040 Speaker 3: inner wisdom, tap into what you know, you know what 458 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 3: you need right now, trust yourself with what you need 459 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:37,800 Speaker 3: right now, and once you get what you urgently need, 460 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:40,840 Speaker 3: know that the rest of it is there for you 461 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 3: and can serve you. And one of the ways that 462 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:49,120 Speaker 3: I learned the importance of predictions, you know, sharing with people. 463 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:56,080 Speaker 3: Predictions is predictions and permission is in therapy. As a 464 00:32:56,200 --> 00:33:01,720 Speaker 3: trauma psychologist, if people come in to thay therapy and 465 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:05,160 Speaker 3: in the moment they feel inspired or they feel safe 466 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:10,600 Speaker 3: and they share something very personal or very vulnerable, it 467 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:13,440 Speaker 3: is a chance that in the moment it felt good, 468 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:17,360 Speaker 3: but afterwards they're going to replay the moment and say 469 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:20,320 Speaker 3: to themselves like I said too much, or what is 470 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:23,040 Speaker 3: doctor Tamer think of me? Or I'm not going back now, 471 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:26,000 Speaker 3: I'm embarrassed. And so at the end of a session 472 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:29,880 Speaker 3: where people have really revealed themselves, I'll give them that 473 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:33,120 Speaker 3: prediction and say to them, I'm so glad what you 474 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:33,960 Speaker 3: shared today. 475 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 2: And at some. 476 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:39,400 Speaker 3: Point this week you're likely going to think, I don't 477 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 3: know if I want to go back, and I invite 478 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:46,640 Speaker 3: you to push past that and show up anyway. And 479 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:48,600 Speaker 3: if next week you don't want to talk about what 480 00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:50,840 Speaker 3: you just said, you can say that and we'll talk 481 00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:54,800 Speaker 3: about something else. So then people will come the next 482 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:58,040 Speaker 3: time and say, you know you were right. I was 483 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:00,840 Speaker 3: thinking about not coming, but I remember what you say. 484 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:07,280 Speaker 3: And so for us to walk in our mutual like 485 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:10,839 Speaker 3: we get to co create it together, and we get 486 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:15,200 Speaker 3: to honor and discover that we do know some things 487 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:16,200 Speaker 3: about ourselves. 488 00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:28,840 Speaker 1: And now a word from our sponsors. One of the 489 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:31,759 Speaker 1: things I appreciate about the example you've just given is 490 00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:38,640 Speaker 1: that it's kind of a meditation on patience again, not 491 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:43,279 Speaker 1: just give yourself permission to be patient for life to 492 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:46,799 Speaker 1: show up for you, but also give yourself permission to 493 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:51,200 Speaker 1: have a burst of observation and then need some time, 494 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:54,080 Speaker 1: need some time to go on your morning walk and 495 00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:56,640 Speaker 1: let it reverberate around in your body and talk about 496 00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 1: something else, and then come back to it when you're 497 00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:03,080 Speaker 1: body and spirit have digested it. 498 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:04,080 Speaker 2: Right. 499 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:07,640 Speaker 1: You know, there's a there's a weird byproduct for all 500 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:10,440 Speaker 1: the great things that I think you know, the internet 501 00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:14,279 Speaker 1: has given to us. It gave you to me as 502 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:18,480 Speaker 1: a viewer when I first found you. For example, one 503 00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:20,960 Speaker 1: of the things I fear it's done, And I just 504 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:26,799 Speaker 1: had a conversation with another artist about this recently. Now 505 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:31,320 Speaker 1: you can't do anything without it feeling or likely being recorded. 506 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:36,920 Speaker 1: You don't have time to discuss something, think about it, 507 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:40,880 Speaker 1: read an article, read a book, mature your opinion, and 508 00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:45,440 Speaker 1: then talk about it again. One video clip, one clickbait, 509 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:48,400 Speaker 1: one bad rehearsal for a performing artist of a song, 510 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:54,120 Speaker 1: one and it blows up your life. Right, And sometimes 511 00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:59,680 Speaker 1: I worry that people are missing the ability to be vulnerable, 512 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,680 Speaker 1: grow and then return as fuller versions of themselves. 513 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:11,799 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that is such a good point of being accepting, 514 00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:18,480 Speaker 3: being called in right, accepting and appreciating growing pains. What 515 00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:21,120 Speaker 3: I like to say is when we get it wrong 516 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,319 Speaker 3: and someone shares it with us, what a gift like 517 00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:27,280 Speaker 3: they could have not said it, and then we continue 518 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:32,319 Speaker 3: on our way not knowing that something was harmful or 519 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:37,640 Speaker 3: offensive or inaccurate. And so we want to always be teachable, 520 00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:42,600 Speaker 3: you know, and to have that cultural humility, you know, 521 00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:45,040 Speaker 3: because now what they're trying to do is say if 522 00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:49,680 Speaker 3: you make the majority uncomfortable, you have now done something illegal. 523 00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:54,839 Speaker 3: And it's like discomfort is illegal, right, It will be 524 00:36:55,200 --> 00:37:00,680 Speaker 3: uncomfortable to learn what you had not I been told 525 00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:05,680 Speaker 3: it is uncomfortable, but you wrestle with that and can 526 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:08,480 Speaker 3: grow from it. The other thing that I think is 527 00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:14,640 Speaker 3: important about us giving ourselves permission to honor where we 528 00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:19,080 Speaker 3: are in the process is it also is teaching us 529 00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:25,439 Speaker 3: sovereignty and empowerment in order to have boundaries. Right, when 530 00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:31,880 Speaker 3: I have to just obey, then it requires no awareness 531 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:35,759 Speaker 3: on my part. But when I have to, as you 532 00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:38,320 Speaker 3: name like take, I like to call it sacred pause. 533 00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:44,480 Speaker 3: Let me pause and consider what do I think, what 534 00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:47,920 Speaker 3: do I feel? What do I want to say? And 535 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:50,360 Speaker 3: I like to use the phrase the holiness of no, 536 00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:56,080 Speaker 3: because for women, or religious people or trauma survivors, we 537 00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:59,759 Speaker 3: are often talked out of our no, and we're in 538 00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:03,279 Speaker 3: that people pleasing mode of what do people want me 539 00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:03,880 Speaker 3: to be? 540 00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:06,680 Speaker 2: But it's not authentic though. 541 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:10,640 Speaker 3: Instead I get to embrace the holiness of no, that's 542 00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:13,440 Speaker 3: not where I am right now, or no I don't 543 00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:15,840 Speaker 3: have a capacity for that, or just no, I choose 544 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:22,920 Speaker 3: not to, and so to give ourselves permission to grow, 545 00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:28,520 Speaker 3: to change, to shift. That's the way we heal. 546 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:33,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I love that you relate it to learning 547 00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:37,520 Speaker 1: about your impact in the world, sometimes hopefully for good 548 00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:40,880 Speaker 1: and sometimes where you don't mean it to be negative 549 00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:44,239 Speaker 1: for others. And also this idea of even how we 550 00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:49,200 Speaker 1: move through the kind of you know, staircase of our 551 00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:53,560 Speaker 1: own experience and reflection. You know, I've had the version 552 00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:55,880 Speaker 1: of what you just talked about with my own therapist 553 00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:59,760 Speaker 1: where we get to the root of something really hard 554 00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:02,719 Speaker 1: that happened and I want to talk about it. It's 555 00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:05,080 Speaker 1: time to talk about it, And the next week I'm like, 556 00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:07,600 Speaker 1: I need fifteen minutes of talking about something else. 557 00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:10,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, okay. 558 00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:14,080 Speaker 1: And where I am about that is Yeah, now I've 559 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:17,000 Speaker 1: thought about it every day for seven days, and I'm 560 00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:18,960 Speaker 1: mad all over again. And I'm mad at the person 561 00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:20,759 Speaker 1: who was in the room and watched it happen and 562 00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:24,080 Speaker 1: didn't say anything. And I'm mad. And you have to 563 00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:28,239 Speaker 1: go through these things. But you're right. The expectation that 564 00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:30,440 Speaker 1: you can just show up and be ready for anything 565 00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:37,080 Speaker 1: at any time, it is it is a that is 566 00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:42,840 Speaker 1: a boundaryless society, that is a behavior that is lacking 567 00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:46,919 Speaker 1: respect for another person's process, and I think the more 568 00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:50,799 Speaker 1: we can talk about it, you know how to just 569 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:57,760 Speaker 1: expand what you can hold, including for others, Like imagine 570 00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:03,160 Speaker 1: what a more gentle world it would be when you 571 00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:06,440 Speaker 1: went through working on the book. Because one of the 572 00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:09,800 Speaker 1: things that I love about this, you know, you've coached 573 00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:13,759 Speaker 1: so many of us, whether personally or digitally in community 574 00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:20,120 Speaker 1: on you know, resilience, on the sacred pause, on expansion, 575 00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:23,360 Speaker 1: and a lot of what you talk about in Matters 576 00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:30,080 Speaker 1: of the Heart is relationship, and it's relationship to your partner, 577 00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:34,520 Speaker 1: to your family, to yourself. Yes, is there a reason 578 00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:41,360 Speaker 1: that you chose to use relationship as the container because 579 00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:44,560 Speaker 1: it feels as a reader like it was very much 580 00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:46,799 Speaker 1: on purpose, and it's not just because people are in 581 00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:48,000 Speaker 1: relationships with each other. 582 00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:56,360 Speaker 3: Yes, it is the biggest question and most frequent challenge 583 00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:02,480 Speaker 3: that people show up with. And it's also a big 584 00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:08,200 Speaker 3: predictor for our well being. So when you feel well loved, 585 00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:12,080 Speaker 3: well cared for, when you have that sense of belonging, 586 00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:18,440 Speaker 3: that can be a protective factor against depression, against anxiety, 587 00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:23,040 Speaker 3: against diction dealing with big life transitions. It's like a 588 00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:26,720 Speaker 3: moving cross country but I'm calling my friends right so 589 00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:31,759 Speaker 3: that can help us, and at the same time, heartbreak 590 00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:36,160 Speaker 3: can be devastating and have a ripple effect in the 591 00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:40,919 Speaker 3: other areas of our lives. People can be very successful, 592 00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:46,440 Speaker 3: let's say academically or professionally, and then if the partnership 593 00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:52,600 Speaker 3: is in ruins or the friendship ends, it can disrupt everything. 594 00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:56,440 Speaker 3: It can take our sleep, take our appetite, take our 595 00:41:56,480 --> 00:42:02,120 Speaker 3: self esteem. And so it is very important both in 596 00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:10,839 Speaker 3: terms of thriving and recovering from the difficulties of life. 597 00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:17,160 Speaker 1: And in the book you talk a lot about emotional unavailability. 598 00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:22,600 Speaker 1: How do you identify if you are emotionally unavailable or if, 599 00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:25,359 Speaker 1: as you referenced earlier, you have to let go of 600 00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:28,600 Speaker 1: someone who maybe does not love you in the way 601 00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:32,960 Speaker 1: they said they did. That feels like an emotional unavailability 602 00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:36,560 Speaker 1: or maybe better categorized as a dishonesty. I'll let you decide. 603 00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:41,840 Speaker 1: But how do you find kind of the root of 604 00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:43,440 Speaker 1: that problem? 605 00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:49,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, so, you know, with ourselves, we kind of check 606 00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:56,279 Speaker 3: in check ourselves to see how real, how authentic am 607 00:42:56,320 --> 00:43:00,560 Speaker 3: I in my relationships and in my friendships. Some of 608 00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:04,000 Speaker 3: us can show up for other people when we're feeling strong, 609 00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:07,719 Speaker 3: when we're feeling shiny, when we're feeling successful, and then 610 00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:12,920 Speaker 3: when we're feeling challenged, we disappear right. So you to 611 00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:17,160 Speaker 3: ask yourself, when I'm struggling, do I reach out to 612 00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:20,920 Speaker 3: my circle and let people support me, or do I 613 00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:24,000 Speaker 3: isolate because I only believe people can see me when 614 00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:29,040 Speaker 3: I'm at my best. So that kind of emotional one 615 00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:35,840 Speaker 3: note is emotional unavailability that I can't be open to 616 00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:40,400 Speaker 3: the full spectrum of my feelings in the presence of 617 00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:44,520 Speaker 3: another right. So it's one thing if I say, oh, 618 00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:47,680 Speaker 3: you know my coworkers or people I don't know well, 619 00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:51,000 Speaker 3: or strangers on the street, Sure with them, I could 620 00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:54,960 Speaker 3: do public relations of how's your day? Oh great, how's yours? 621 00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:58,080 Speaker 3: But am I talking to my family and friends and 622 00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:02,040 Speaker 3: partner that way? So you want to ask yourself your 623 00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:07,040 Speaker 3: level of honesty, which is our level of intimacy in 624 00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:11,640 Speaker 3: terms of these relationships. And we also want to think 625 00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:18,080 Speaker 3: about the ways we may sabotage connections or our discomfort 626 00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:22,960 Speaker 3: with being seen. How does it feel to me when 627 00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:28,080 Speaker 3: people are actually paying attention right, when they observe things 628 00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:31,720 Speaker 3: about me that I'm not used to people seeing. 629 00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:33,000 Speaker 2: Right. 630 00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:41,120 Speaker 3: And then in terms of in relationship accepting, when people's 631 00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:46,120 Speaker 3: actions either don't match their words or when their actions 632 00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:50,400 Speaker 3: don't match my fantasy, because sometimes it's not even their words. 633 00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:55,320 Speaker 3: Sometimes they never said anything, but you know, we created 634 00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:58,160 Speaker 3: this picture of like, oh, we're going to either be 635 00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:01,880 Speaker 3: besties or this is going to be my partner. Yeah, 636 00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:06,360 Speaker 3: they're not on board with that. So everybody in the 637 00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:09,080 Speaker 3: relationship has to know they're in it. It can't just 638 00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:12,600 Speaker 3: be one sided, right, right. 639 00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:15,000 Speaker 1: And now a word from our sponsors who make this 640 00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:28,320 Speaker 1: show possible. I guess everybody also has a point where 641 00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:33,480 Speaker 1: some of those things click in right for whatever reason. 642 00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:37,440 Speaker 1: It really makes me think about the dissolution of my 643 00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:41,400 Speaker 1: last relationship, which you know, to add insult to injury, 644 00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:45,000 Speaker 1: was out in the world, which is never an easy 645 00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:47,200 Speaker 1: way to process something, but you know, kind of comes 646 00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:53,160 Speaker 1: with the job. The thing that I was so profound 647 00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:57,600 Speaker 1: for me, especially as a woman, knowing how so many 648 00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:00,239 Speaker 1: of us have been taught to be good and his 649 00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:02,760 Speaker 1: smile and to serve others and take care of everyone 650 00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:05,239 Speaker 1: else in the room and do do all of the things. 651 00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:07,120 Speaker 1: Be a good soldier, be a good leader on set, 652 00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:12,680 Speaker 1: be a good daughter, be whatever. The thing that finally 653 00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:19,239 Speaker 1: made me stop saying, well, maybe if I compromised more. 654 00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:22,120 Speaker 1: Maybe if my job were less difficult, maybe if I, maybe, 655 00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:25,040 Speaker 1: if I, maybe, if I and made me go, wait 656 00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:28,719 Speaker 1: a second, what about what's supposed to be for me 657 00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:30,399 Speaker 1: instead of what I'm supposed to. 658 00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:31,520 Speaker 2: Do for Yes? 659 00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:34,839 Speaker 1: Yes, And the aha moment for me was being on 660 00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:41,040 Speaker 1: the precipice of becoming a mom and going, oh, every 661 00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:46,200 Speaker 1: single thing I have accepted for myself, I would never ever, 662 00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:53,319 Speaker 1: except for my child, I would never ever. I would 663 00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:57,200 Speaker 1: never tell my best friend to compromise more. I would 664 00:46:57,239 --> 00:47:01,160 Speaker 1: say to her, you're being asked to compromise yourself, not 665 00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:08,719 Speaker 1: to compromise with another. And there was something about realizing, oh, 666 00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:13,719 Speaker 1: I have gone through the spectrum of you know, in 667 00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:18,319 Speaker 1: small ways to unacceptable big ways. I have always kind 668 00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:23,440 Speaker 1: of compromised myself. And I thought I learned how to 669 00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:26,799 Speaker 1: not do that, you know, seven years ago, and here 670 00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:30,000 Speaker 1: I am realizing I'm still doing it, and it looks 671 00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:33,480 Speaker 1: good on the outside and it's all smoke and mirrors, 672 00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:37,880 Speaker 1: and it was this kind of revelatory. I sort of 673 00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:42,520 Speaker 1: felt like I felt like internally I had one of 674 00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:45,880 Speaker 1: those experiences like when we used to watch the videos 675 00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:48,759 Speaker 1: of the old hotels in Las Vegas, get demoed like 676 00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:50,880 Speaker 1: the cool old buildings that would blow up on the 677 00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:53,239 Speaker 1: inside and then collapse, because then they you know, they 678 00:47:53,239 --> 00:47:56,319 Speaker 1: were building the skyscrapers like that was my thing. I 679 00:47:56,360 --> 00:47:58,640 Speaker 1: was like, oh, i've the whole thing has to come down. 680 00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:03,960 Speaker 1: And it made me have conversations with my parents at 681 00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:07,600 Speaker 1: forty that I thought we'd had and achieved, and look 682 00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:10,959 Speaker 1: at us doing the work at thirty four. All these things. 683 00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:13,840 Speaker 1: It made me realize there was a whole basement layer 684 00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:19,719 Speaker 1: I'd not gone through yet. And it was so painful 685 00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:28,400 Speaker 1: and weirdly also the most joyous, the most oxygenated. I mean, 686 00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:32,279 Speaker 1: I just took such a deep breath even thinking about it. 687 00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:36,600 Speaker 1: It was so hard and so good, and it was 688 00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:38,680 Speaker 1: the thing that had to happen. But I had to 689 00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:42,640 Speaker 1: stop trying to be good, and I had to stop 690 00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:45,399 Speaker 1: trying to take care of everyone else in the room 691 00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:49,800 Speaker 1: before myself. The metaphor I gave myself was like, stop 692 00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:53,040 Speaker 1: cooking a dinner for thirty people and then serving yourself 693 00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:55,959 Speaker 1: the scraps as the thirtieth person to plate her food. 694 00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:58,719 Speaker 1: You cooked the food, You make your plate first, you 695 00:48:58,760 --> 00:48:59,360 Speaker 1: eat first. 696 00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:00,560 Speaker 2: Right. 697 00:49:01,040 --> 00:49:06,239 Speaker 1: But it took me for decades to feel that I 698 00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:11,080 Speaker 1: deserved that, and that is when I feel to what 699 00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:12,920 Speaker 1: you were saying earlier, that's when I feel like my 700 00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:16,920 Speaker 1: life arrived for me. And I was like, oh, okay, 701 00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:18,440 Speaker 1: it's just been a slow burn. 702 00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:21,560 Speaker 2: Yes, but it's here. Ah. 703 00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:28,480 Speaker 3: I love that testimony. And it's also deeply understandable because 704 00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:33,920 Speaker 3: we get celebrated for erasing ourselves. You know, people will 705 00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:36,960 Speaker 3: hold you up and say, you're a good partner, you're 706 00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:39,920 Speaker 3: a good friend, you have no needs, you. 707 00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:42,040 Speaker 1: Have no needs, you're so selfless. 708 00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:47,360 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, it gets celebrated, and so of course you 709 00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:50,760 Speaker 3: lived like that, right, And I think that's the part 710 00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:53,840 Speaker 3: to take in because if not, we can beat ourselves 711 00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:56,160 Speaker 3: up about, oh my god, why did I do this? 712 00:49:56,200 --> 00:50:00,279 Speaker 3: For decades because it was taught and reinforced and it 713 00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:03,600 Speaker 3: was modeled and celebrated that this is what you because 714 00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:06,680 Speaker 3: nobody wants to be a selfish woman, right, right, And 715 00:50:06,719 --> 00:50:09,720 Speaker 3: so then when you're like, wait a minute, we're getting 716 00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:13,160 Speaker 3: the bad into the stick here, right, I suppose this 717 00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:16,360 Speaker 3: should be mutual, This should be reciprocal. 718 00:50:17,840 --> 00:50:19,879 Speaker 2: I should be that. You know. 719 00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:22,799 Speaker 3: What I like to say is if you make them 720 00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:27,040 Speaker 3: your priority and they make themselves their priority, who's looking 721 00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:31,400 Speaker 3: out for you. Right, So I can only be selfless 722 00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:34,239 Speaker 3: in the presence of someone else who is selfless, and 723 00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:37,040 Speaker 3: then we are mutually nourishing each other. 724 00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:38,360 Speaker 2: Yeah. 725 00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:41,439 Speaker 1: Yes, well, and you're saying something that I think gets 726 00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:44,800 Speaker 1: missed in this self love discourse, love yourself first before 727 00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:48,920 Speaker 1: you can love another. We talked about it earlier. There's this. 728 00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:52,480 Speaker 1: I've seen backlash, you know, both for some of what 729 00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:55,719 Speaker 1: I've shared. I see it with Chelsea Hamler talking about 730 00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:59,359 Speaker 1: choosing herself in a relationship that wasn't good. I see it. 731 00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:01,880 Speaker 1: It's on the end, not a lot like oh, happiness 732 00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:05,520 Speaker 1: isn't the metric? And how selfish that you and et cetera, 733 00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:10,759 Speaker 1: et cetera. No, my core, I'm still the person who 734 00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:14,279 Speaker 1: likes to cook for everybody, but I can't be the 735 00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:17,239 Speaker 1: only one who does it. Yes, I actually can be 736 00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:22,839 Speaker 1: more selfless in a reciprocal relationship than I could ever 737 00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:25,520 Speaker 1: be in one where I was expected to do all 738 00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:30,520 Speaker 1: and be all and be quietly happy, right right, in 739 00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:33,399 Speaker 1: a weird way, the more you're able to say, oh, 740 00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:37,120 Speaker 1: I deserve, I will also take for myself, the more 741 00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:38,839 Speaker 1: you can give to another, Is that right? 742 00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:39,360 Speaker 2: Yes? 743 00:51:39,480 --> 00:51:45,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, And then it doesn't get set up as you're 744 00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:51,040 Speaker 3: dishonoring or robbing the other person, or the relationship is 745 00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:54,600 Speaker 3: that we want each other to be well, and so 746 00:51:55,080 --> 00:51:56,840 Speaker 3: the things that make you well. 747 00:51:57,480 --> 00:51:58,200 Speaker 2: Right, But it is. 748 00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:03,040 Speaker 3: Interesting as your name, people getting angry at women for 749 00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:07,000 Speaker 3: wanting to be happy, so just like really and including 750 00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:11,719 Speaker 3: messages from other women who have chosen misery and perseverance 751 00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:17,040 Speaker 3: over their own joy, and so they are outraged at 752 00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:20,759 Speaker 3: how dare you walk away and choose joy? 753 00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:23,320 Speaker 2: Because for them it never felt like an option. 754 00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:28,120 Speaker 1: Yes, I need you to say that again. Yeah, women, 755 00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:34,719 Speaker 1: particularly yes, negative elements of the patriarchy, right, get enraged 756 00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:37,360 Speaker 1: when other women choose joy, when other women get free. 757 00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:42,480 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, it's like, how dare you do that? I 758 00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:44,759 Speaker 3: didn't know we could do that. I don't think I 759 00:52:44,840 --> 00:52:48,399 Speaker 3: can do that. Doing that must be bad in order 760 00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:52,239 Speaker 3: for me to feel good about myself, and so for 761 00:52:52,360 --> 00:52:57,200 Speaker 3: us not to judge each other, like if someone chooses 762 00:52:57,680 --> 00:53:03,040 Speaker 3: to stay in an unhappy circumstance because their values tell 763 00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:06,960 Speaker 3: them loyalty is more important than happiness, that's your choice. 764 00:53:08,239 --> 00:53:10,920 Speaker 2: That's your choice. That's your choice. 765 00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:15,480 Speaker 3: And for those who choose to say, my mental health 766 00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:18,880 Speaker 3: is more important than being loyal to something that's killing me. 767 00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:26,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the choice for me. The thing that I 768 00:53:26,680 --> 00:53:30,600 Speaker 1: heard myself say to a friend that then I couldn't 769 00:53:30,640 --> 00:53:34,319 Speaker 1: stop saying, was everybody says life's too short, but I'm 770 00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:37,839 Speaker 1: realizing life is way too long to do this. 771 00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:42,640 Speaker 2: Ahh. It's just too long to be in so much 772 00:53:43,680 --> 00:53:45,600 Speaker 2: pain and unfulfillment. 773 00:53:46,560 --> 00:53:53,200 Speaker 3: And one of the important I think distinctions for people 774 00:53:53,320 --> 00:53:56,040 Speaker 3: is it's not that I can't do it, it's that 775 00:53:56,120 --> 00:54:02,640 Speaker 3: I choose not to be. I could just keep making 776 00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:05,479 Speaker 3: all the dinners, right, I could keep doing all of that, 777 00:54:06,160 --> 00:54:10,240 Speaker 3: But I'm gonna make another choice because I have many 778 00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:12,839 Speaker 3: more years and many more seasons. And here's the other 779 00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:16,520 Speaker 3: thing that I think people don't get. It actually sets 780 00:54:16,560 --> 00:54:23,319 Speaker 3: both people free. Right, somebody is gonna be happy with 781 00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:28,240 Speaker 3: that other person and not consider it suffering or perseverance. 782 00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:31,680 Speaker 3: So let them be free to find their person. Let 783 00:54:31,760 --> 00:54:34,480 Speaker 3: you be free to find yours, or to create the 784 00:54:34,560 --> 00:54:39,440 Speaker 3: life that you want. That you know, it's that scarcity 785 00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:43,000 Speaker 3: mindset that like we are all we could ever have, 786 00:54:43,680 --> 00:54:46,319 Speaker 3: and so we have to cling to it even though 787 00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:49,520 Speaker 3: it is joyless. 788 00:54:50,360 --> 00:54:55,839 Speaker 1: Yeah, but to say I know I deserve more than 789 00:54:55,960 --> 00:55:01,040 Speaker 1: this scarcity, it's kind of like jumping without seeing the net. Yes, 790 00:55:01,080 --> 00:55:07,040 Speaker 1: beneath you. It is terrifying, you know. Thank God for 791 00:55:07,120 --> 00:55:09,319 Speaker 1: hindsight because we always say, you know, it's twenty twenty. 792 00:55:09,400 --> 00:55:12,600 Speaker 1: I can see the terror and the courage that it 793 00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:15,919 Speaker 1: took for me and so many people I know who 794 00:55:15,920 --> 00:55:18,240 Speaker 1: were going through it at the same time, and friends 795 00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:22,840 Speaker 1: who are going through it now. How do you think 796 00:55:22,960 --> 00:55:28,120 Speaker 1: we can tap into our courage, our knowing that there 797 00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:32,440 Speaker 1: will be a net when we are so afraid? Because 798 00:55:33,040 --> 00:55:36,719 Speaker 1: to your point, so many people choose the pain they 799 00:55:36,800 --> 00:55:42,319 Speaker 1: know instead of the unknown, which could be joy. So 800 00:55:42,360 --> 00:55:45,040 Speaker 1: there must be something we have to shift right. 801 00:55:44,960 --> 00:55:45,760 Speaker 2: Right right. 802 00:55:46,320 --> 00:55:49,560 Speaker 3: So a part of it is I call it a 803 00:55:49,600 --> 00:55:53,640 Speaker 3: faith walk, especially if you've never been treated wonderfully well 804 00:55:54,440 --> 00:55:56,799 Speaker 3: you say you've seen other people like I know it 805 00:55:56,920 --> 00:56:00,400 Speaker 3: exists in the world, but has it existed for me? 806 00:56:01,360 --> 00:56:03,560 Speaker 3: Then for a lot of people they would say no, 807 00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:06,960 Speaker 3: like this is the best of what I've had, even 808 00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:12,160 Speaker 3: though it's not good, And so can I have faith 809 00:56:12,200 --> 00:56:15,960 Speaker 3: for what I have yet to experience? Can I have 810 00:56:16,040 --> 00:56:19,120 Speaker 3: faith that it can exist for me? And I need 811 00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:22,120 Speaker 3: to say this because I am part of in therapy. 812 00:56:22,160 --> 00:56:26,440 Speaker 3: For me is like not giving false promises is like, 813 00:56:27,239 --> 00:56:32,239 Speaker 3: let's say you didn't meet mister or miss wonderful, do 814 00:56:32,360 --> 00:56:34,439 Speaker 3: you still want to be in this? 815 00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:35,640 Speaker 2: Right? 816 00:56:36,239 --> 00:56:40,640 Speaker 3: So it's not a matter of like, it's it's because 817 00:56:40,800 --> 00:56:43,560 Speaker 3: because if not, people will think instantly, well, where's my 818 00:56:43,640 --> 00:56:46,560 Speaker 3: new person? And it's like, well, how about where's my 819 00:56:46,640 --> 00:56:50,719 Speaker 3: new life? How about here's my joy? How about here's 820 00:56:50,719 --> 00:56:54,440 Speaker 3: my opportunity to begin my new chapter whatever that is 821 00:56:54,520 --> 00:56:55,000 Speaker 3: going to be. 822 00:56:55,640 --> 00:56:59,240 Speaker 1: Here's here's my opportunity to be my full self instead 823 00:56:59,280 --> 00:57:01,759 Speaker 1: of a reduced fractional version of me. 824 00:57:02,239 --> 00:57:04,800 Speaker 2: That's right, that's right. Absolutely. 825 00:57:05,360 --> 00:57:09,879 Speaker 3: So I think it's easier sometimes for people to imagine 826 00:57:09,960 --> 00:57:13,600 Speaker 3: that then, because yeah, if the other way, if it's 827 00:57:13,719 --> 00:57:17,160 Speaker 3: just hooked on too, like I'm instantly gonna be swooped 828 00:57:17,200 --> 00:57:21,280 Speaker 3: off my feet by someone amazing, and when months or 829 00:57:21,360 --> 00:57:24,479 Speaker 3: years passed they haven't met that person, then if you're like, oh, 830 00:57:24,560 --> 00:57:27,600 Speaker 3: I made a mistake, it's like, no, you were miserable. 831 00:57:28,360 --> 00:57:31,920 Speaker 3: You were miserable and unfulfilled, and so now you're living 832 00:57:32,120 --> 00:57:35,560 Speaker 3: a freer life and down the road, who knows how 833 00:57:35,600 --> 00:57:39,160 Speaker 3: far down the road you may connect with someone and 834 00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:41,160 Speaker 3: then you'll be able to say it was worth the wait. 835 00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:47,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, patience, it really all sounds to me like 836 00:57:47,760 --> 00:57:50,600 Speaker 1: it comes back to a practice of patience for yourself. 837 00:57:51,320 --> 00:57:55,760 Speaker 3: I will say, patience and co creating. So I'm not 838 00:57:55,840 --> 00:57:59,600 Speaker 3: just like pass sitting and waiting, right, because I have 839 00:57:59,680 --> 00:58:03,240 Speaker 3: people who are like that, who just like work remote, 840 00:58:03,480 --> 00:58:05,920 Speaker 3: stay home all day and it's like, who are you 841 00:58:05,960 --> 00:58:10,080 Speaker 3: going to meet the delivery person? I have to be 842 00:58:10,320 --> 00:58:15,640 Speaker 3: active while I'm being patient, but I'm engaging with life. 843 00:58:15,880 --> 00:58:22,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, and sometimes just that just shifting where you physically 844 00:58:22,160 --> 00:58:27,160 Speaker 1: are putting yourself in new rooms, right, it can reveal 845 00:58:27,200 --> 00:58:28,360 Speaker 1: your whole life to you. 846 00:58:28,480 --> 00:58:29,960 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, it might have. 847 00:58:29,960 --> 00:58:31,160 Speaker 1: Been in front of you the whole time. 848 00:58:31,400 --> 00:58:33,520 Speaker 2: Absolutely absolutely. 849 00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:39,160 Speaker 1: I said this a lot in that very transformational year 850 00:58:39,200 --> 00:58:41,080 Speaker 1: as well, Like I just didn't see it until I 851 00:58:41,080 --> 00:58:48,080 Speaker 1: saw it. And I think you, if you're lucky, you 852 00:58:48,120 --> 00:58:50,520 Speaker 1: get put in spaces where you get to see something 853 00:58:50,560 --> 00:58:51,480 Speaker 1: you didn't expect. 854 00:58:51,920 --> 00:58:57,480 Speaker 3: Right, Yes, it's true being open to the new. Can 855 00:58:57,560 --> 00:58:59,800 Speaker 3: my life be different than it is right now? 856 00:59:00,080 --> 00:59:00,800 Speaker 2: Yes it can be. 857 00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:06,200 Speaker 1: Yes, So these are big ideas. Courage is a big practice, 858 00:59:06,320 --> 00:59:09,040 Speaker 1: Bravery is a big practice of faith. Walk is a 859 00:59:09,040 --> 00:59:15,840 Speaker 1: big practice. What are some of the smaller more more 860 00:59:15,880 --> 00:59:18,680 Speaker 1: able to go on? Perhaps a to do list? Yes, 861 00:59:19,040 --> 00:59:23,600 Speaker 1: or a calendar, the daily practices that you would tell 862 00:59:23,640 --> 00:59:28,680 Speaker 1: people to incorporate for their mental self care or that 863 00:59:28,760 --> 00:59:30,240 Speaker 1: you incorporate for yours. 864 00:59:30,600 --> 00:59:34,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, so I'd like to say, create a morning ritual, 865 00:59:35,200 --> 00:59:39,160 Speaker 3: you know, set the tone for your day. And you know, 866 00:59:39,240 --> 00:59:43,760 Speaker 3: I had to discover that because basically, if you wake 867 00:59:43,880 --> 00:59:46,040 Speaker 3: up at the time you have to jump out of bed, 868 00:59:46,320 --> 00:59:50,160 Speaker 3: you've already started to stay anxious. Right, Oh, then we 869 00:59:50,200 --> 00:59:52,960 Speaker 3: need to set the alarm before I need to actually 870 00:59:53,000 --> 00:59:56,920 Speaker 3: be up, So I could have a season of stillness, 871 00:59:57,800 --> 01:00:01,480 Speaker 3: season of sacred connection. Whatever that's going to look like 872 01:00:01,520 --> 01:00:04,560 Speaker 3: for me. It might be listening to this podcast, it 873 01:00:04,680 --> 01:00:08,400 Speaker 3: might be journaling. It might be I'm waking up early 874 01:00:08,480 --> 01:00:11,400 Speaker 3: enough to be able to go for a walk. It 875 01:00:11,480 --> 01:00:13,680 Speaker 3: might be because I need time for prayer and meditation. 876 01:00:15,520 --> 01:00:20,560 Speaker 3: So start the day by feeding your spirit. I like 877 01:00:20,640 --> 01:00:22,960 Speaker 3: to say, you know, pick a theme song, US song 878 01:00:23,000 --> 01:00:24,560 Speaker 3: they like when you put it on, it makes you 879 01:00:24,600 --> 01:00:28,720 Speaker 3: want to dance, it makes you feel good inside. That way, 880 01:00:28,760 --> 01:00:32,440 Speaker 3: you're not going out in the world hungry and desperate 881 01:00:32,880 --> 01:00:36,160 Speaker 3: for the world to give you life. Like I show 882 01:00:36,240 --> 01:00:39,080 Speaker 3: up and then I can get for my overflow. Right, 883 01:00:39,120 --> 01:00:41,480 Speaker 3: I can't show up empty, so I have to be 884 01:00:41,600 --> 01:00:46,760 Speaker 3: intentional about pouring into myself. So yeah, start the day 885 01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:53,080 Speaker 3: in love with love with the sacred, and then I 886 01:00:53,120 --> 01:00:59,680 Speaker 3: would say, stretch into greater vulnerability in your relationships and friendships. 887 01:01:00,360 --> 01:01:05,440 Speaker 3: Tell somebody an uncommon truth today. You know, when someone 888 01:01:05,520 --> 01:01:08,600 Speaker 3: asks you, how are you doing? Give somebody a real answer, 889 01:01:09,360 --> 01:01:12,120 Speaker 3: and then we'll start to deepen our friendships and deepen 890 01:01:12,160 --> 01:01:13,000 Speaker 3: our connections. 891 01:01:14,520 --> 01:01:17,440 Speaker 1: M give somebody a real answer. 892 01:01:17,880 --> 01:01:18,400 Speaker 2: Yeah. 893 01:01:18,480 --> 01:01:23,200 Speaker 1: That's nice, right, it's really nice. Do you have a 894 01:01:23,240 --> 01:01:23,880 Speaker 1: morning song? 895 01:01:24,960 --> 01:01:27,560 Speaker 2: Oh? I have several? 896 01:01:28,320 --> 01:01:34,440 Speaker 3: Uh breathe it in Uh is beautiful chorus. People listen 897 01:01:34,520 --> 01:01:37,800 Speaker 3: to that. That just reminds you to take breath. 898 01:01:38,560 --> 01:01:38,800 Speaker 1: Uh. 899 01:01:38,840 --> 01:01:42,160 Speaker 3: And then my dear sister Joy Jones has a song 900 01:01:42,280 --> 01:01:46,320 Speaker 3: called beautiful, So it starts with this affirmation I'm beautiful, 901 01:01:46,440 --> 01:01:50,440 Speaker 3: Yes I am. And so just like serenading yourself in 902 01:01:50,480 --> 01:01:51,000 Speaker 3: the morning. 903 01:01:51,720 --> 01:01:57,640 Speaker 1: M h. Yeah, that's so special and it strikes me 904 01:01:57,720 --> 01:02:04,000 Speaker 1: as simple in a way. These are simple ideas, but 905 01:02:04,160 --> 01:02:07,720 Speaker 1: what they do for your spirit and for the way 906 01:02:07,920 --> 01:02:12,160 Speaker 1: you begin your day profound right. 907 01:02:12,880 --> 01:02:18,240 Speaker 3: It is about repeated practices over time, so in the moments, 908 01:02:18,520 --> 01:02:21,000 Speaker 3: and this is an important piece people need to keep 909 01:02:21,000 --> 01:02:26,000 Speaker 3: in mind. You want goals that are actually doable and attainable. Right, 910 01:02:26,200 --> 01:02:31,080 Speaker 3: Sometimes we set like these outrageously huge goals that are 911 01:02:31,120 --> 01:02:34,760 Speaker 3: a setup for disappointment, a setup for failure, and then 912 01:02:34,800 --> 01:02:38,439 Speaker 3: we give up. Right, So the common one I said, 913 01:02:38,480 --> 01:02:40,960 Speaker 3: I think I had it in the first book Homecoming, 914 01:02:42,240 --> 01:02:44,800 Speaker 3: that if last night, if you had fried chicken last night, 915 01:02:44,880 --> 01:02:46,560 Speaker 3: don't say, starting today, I'm a vegan. 916 01:02:47,600 --> 01:02:51,680 Speaker 2: It's just it's not going to work. You start like 917 01:02:51,720 --> 01:02:52,720 Speaker 2: a meetless Monday. 918 01:02:53,680 --> 01:02:58,160 Speaker 3: So set goals that seem small, but you repeat them 919 01:02:58,200 --> 01:03:01,760 Speaker 3: over time and habit becomes your life. 920 01:03:02,440 --> 01:03:07,040 Speaker 1: That's beautiful. Oh gosh, yeah, I just I'm sitting with 921 01:03:07,120 --> 01:03:10,040 Speaker 1: the thought of it, looking at the time and knowing 922 01:03:10,080 --> 01:03:12,240 Speaker 1: I need to ask you my next question, but just 923 01:03:12,680 --> 01:03:16,880 Speaker 1: taking a moment. So thank you for that. You know, 924 01:03:16,960 --> 01:03:22,080 Speaker 1: you are a person who strikes me as always growing 925 01:03:23,240 --> 01:03:29,880 Speaker 1: and learning and interrogating, and you know, giving to the 926 01:03:29,920 --> 01:03:36,440 Speaker 1: world certainly, And you've given us a new book. What 927 01:03:36,600 --> 01:03:39,840 Speaker 1: feels because I imagine when you think about the things 928 01:03:39,840 --> 01:03:42,840 Speaker 1: you want to do, you are a person who wants 929 01:03:42,880 --> 01:03:47,560 Speaker 1: to do for everyone. I love that you talk about 930 01:03:47,560 --> 01:03:51,440 Speaker 1: how to do for yourself. But what right now is 931 01:03:51,480 --> 01:03:54,880 Speaker 1: the book is coming out and the world is what 932 01:03:54,960 --> 01:03:57,840 Speaker 1: it is, and yet you choose to begin every day 933 01:03:57,920 --> 01:04:02,200 Speaker 1: in love with all these things you hold. What feels 934 01:04:02,200 --> 01:04:04,480 Speaker 1: like you're work in progress right now? 935 01:04:05,160 --> 01:04:08,680 Speaker 3: Well, I will say one of my what's a continuous 936 01:04:08,720 --> 01:04:14,480 Speaker 3: work is parenting. My eldest is a sophomore in college 937 01:04:14,560 --> 01:04:16,640 Speaker 3: now in cross country all the way in New York, 938 01:04:17,360 --> 01:04:21,240 Speaker 3: and then my youngest is in middle school. Uh, And 939 01:04:21,320 --> 01:04:26,080 Speaker 3: they come, you know, with very different personalities. So I 940 01:04:26,200 --> 01:04:29,520 Speaker 3: like to say, you know, my eldest made me a 941 01:04:29,640 --> 01:04:31,480 Speaker 3: very confident parent because. 942 01:04:31,200 --> 01:04:32,360 Speaker 2: Like she just kind of out. 943 01:04:33,880 --> 01:04:36,560 Speaker 3: And then when my son came along, I had had 944 01:04:36,560 --> 01:04:38,240 Speaker 3: to get some humility. 945 01:04:37,840 --> 01:04:39,160 Speaker 2: Like oh yeah. 946 01:04:39,200 --> 01:04:45,560 Speaker 3: So continuing to be open to learning, like learning them 947 01:04:45,640 --> 01:04:50,720 Speaker 3: and learning myself one of the things that really nourishes me. 948 01:04:50,880 --> 01:04:53,040 Speaker 3: We talk about like what are practices we can do. 949 01:04:53,760 --> 01:04:57,400 Speaker 3: I have a sisterhood circle called the Gathering uh, and 950 01:04:57,440 --> 01:05:00,560 Speaker 3: we get together about once a month, either in or 951 01:05:00,840 --> 01:05:04,960 Speaker 3: online and just pour into each other. And it's so 952 01:05:05,720 --> 01:05:09,360 Speaker 3: important to me that it's not a space where like 953 01:05:10,160 --> 01:05:14,040 Speaker 3: I'm doing all the pouring and people are just receiving. 954 01:05:14,360 --> 01:05:18,440 Speaker 3: Like it is a real sisterhood circle where if we're 955 01:05:18,480 --> 01:05:22,040 Speaker 3: having a rough month, we say that and get the encouragement. 956 01:05:22,560 --> 01:05:24,960 Speaker 3: If you know, we have something to celebrate. We share 957 01:05:25,000 --> 01:05:32,520 Speaker 3: that and so, yeah, sisterhood is such a gift and 958 01:05:32,880 --> 01:05:37,120 Speaker 3: I continue to humble myself and develop as a parent. 959 01:05:38,040 --> 01:05:43,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that. Yeah it feels beautiful. Thank you 960 01:05:43,680 --> 01:05:45,960 Speaker 1: so much for coming on today. It's just been an 961 01:05:46,040 --> 01:05:47,000 Speaker 1: absolute joy. 962 01:05:47,440 --> 01:05:51,720 Speaker 3: Thank you for having me, for the wonderful conversation, and 963 01:05:51,760 --> 01:05:56,640 Speaker 3: for the beauty of your transparency and your testimony. I 964 01:05:56,760 --> 01:05:59,480 Speaker 3: know that as you share your story it's set so 965 01:05:59,600 --> 01:06:03,000 Speaker 3: many people free. And I love the range of us 966 01:06:03,120 --> 01:06:07,400 Speaker 3: talking from personal relationships to social justice, because all of 967 01:06:07,440 --> 01:06:08,760 Speaker 3: it is necessary. 968 01:06:09,280 --> 01:06:11,640 Speaker 1: It is, it is. Thank you so much