1 00:00:08,245 --> 00:00:14,805 Speaker 1: School of Humans. She was talking to somebody on Saturday 2 00:00:15,205 --> 00:00:18,605 Speaker 1: and had plans to meet with this person on Sunday 3 00:00:18,845 --> 00:00:20,565 Speaker 1: in the park. She was supposed to meet with someone 4 00:00:20,645 --> 00:00:23,685 Speaker 1: Sunday in the park, So we still haven't figured out 5 00:00:23,685 --> 00:00:25,685 Speaker 1: who that was. Because I was kind of thinking. I 6 00:00:25,765 --> 00:00:29,525 Speaker 1: knew she had Instagram messages exchange with Eric Perry, so 7 00:00:29,565 --> 00:00:32,085 Speaker 1: I thought, maybe's Eric Perry. But now we know obviously 8 00:00:32,165 --> 00:00:35,085 Speaker 1: that wasn't him. So was there a guy who she 9 00:00:35,125 --> 00:00:36,845 Speaker 1: was planning on meeting Sunday in the park. Could it 10 00:00:36,925 --> 00:00:39,205 Speaker 1: have been someone else? We're trying to figure that out. 11 00:00:40,485 --> 00:00:43,605 Speaker 1: Each person who we've talked to about Ebbie revealed some 12 00:00:43,685 --> 00:00:46,565 Speaker 1: new information about who she was and what she was 13 00:00:46,605 --> 00:00:50,485 Speaker 1: doing before she disappeared. We've found out that she hung 14 00:00:50,485 --> 00:00:53,045 Speaker 1: out with a lot of different people in groups, and 15 00:00:53,125 --> 00:00:55,605 Speaker 1: some of these people didn't even necessarily know each other. 16 00:00:56,725 --> 00:00:59,645 Speaker 1: There was Danielle, her old friend from school who she 17 00:00:59,765 --> 00:01:02,885 Speaker 1: sometimes stayed with during the week. Then there was Eric, 18 00:01:03,245 --> 00:01:05,005 Speaker 1: who Ebbie hung out with in a group with some 19 00:01:05,045 --> 00:01:09,525 Speaker 1: other friends and eventually dated. Then there were C and L. 20 00:01:09,725 --> 00:01:12,845 Speaker 1: Ebbie seemed to know C pretty well, while L was 21 00:01:12,885 --> 00:01:15,725 Speaker 1: more of a friend of a friend. But as we 22 00:01:15,805 --> 00:01:19,005 Speaker 1: dig in with each person, we keep finding more and 23 00:01:19,045 --> 00:01:22,725 Speaker 1: more circles of people, and we're realizing that there may 24 00:01:22,765 --> 00:01:26,405 Speaker 1: be people out there who we haven't found yet. It 25 00:01:26,525 --> 00:01:28,925 Speaker 1: seems like Ebby was going to meet someone at the park, 26 00:01:29,925 --> 00:01:32,965 Speaker 1: and if we can figure out who it is, everything 27 00:01:33,165 --> 00:01:39,245 Speaker 1: might fall into place. I'm Catherine Townsend. This is hell 28 00:01:39,285 --> 00:02:15,605 Speaker 1: and gone. When I talked to Eric, he had a 29 00:02:15,685 --> 00:02:18,725 Speaker 1: theory about what could have happened to Ebby. When he 30 00:02:18,845 --> 00:02:22,525 Speaker 1: talked to Ebbie that last time on Sunday, Remember, he 31 00:02:22,685 --> 00:02:27,085 Speaker 1: said she sounded exhausted. She sounded impaired in some way, 32 00:02:27,605 --> 00:02:30,245 Speaker 1: out of it and incoherent. I think you were saying 33 00:02:30,285 --> 00:02:32,045 Speaker 1: she seemed like she was out of it or she'd 34 00:02:32,085 --> 00:02:35,405 Speaker 1: been roofeed or something. Right, Yes, Like, that's why I 35 00:02:35,445 --> 00:02:37,165 Speaker 1: think she might have passed out at work up too, 36 00:02:37,325 --> 00:02:40,765 Speaker 1: because of the sound. We know that Ebbie had smoked 37 00:02:40,765 --> 00:02:43,685 Speaker 1: pot in the past, and that at some point she 38 00:02:43,765 --> 00:02:45,965 Speaker 1: was on a couple of different types of prescription drugs. 39 00:02:46,645 --> 00:02:50,645 Speaker 1: But could Ebbie have taken something else, even accidentally, that 40 00:02:50,765 --> 00:02:54,405 Speaker 1: contributed to her death. Yes, Ebbie could have very well 41 00:02:54,525 --> 00:02:57,125 Speaker 1: overdose phone drugs. She took drugs. That's the road thing 42 00:02:57,205 --> 00:03:00,085 Speaker 1: like and now was like around the time where Fedanar 43 00:03:00,365 --> 00:03:03,725 Speaker 1: was like, people didn't even know what fed was. You know, 44 00:03:03,925 --> 00:03:07,605 Speaker 1: so is that's the very you got to understand why 45 00:03:07,645 --> 00:03:10,045 Speaker 1: the police felate she could you know, this could have 46 00:03:10,125 --> 00:03:14,325 Speaker 1: happened to her. Like the rest of the nation at 47 00:03:14,325 --> 00:03:17,205 Speaker 1: the time, Little Rock was experiencing an increase of death 48 00:03:17,285 --> 00:03:20,885 Speaker 1: due to overdose. Fentnyl was making the news, especially after 49 00:03:20,925 --> 00:03:24,565 Speaker 1: Prince's death, but back in twenty fifteen it was not 50 00:03:24,645 --> 00:03:26,525 Speaker 1: as well known as it is now in the region. 51 00:03:27,885 --> 00:03:31,885 Speaker 1: Fentnyl is a synthetic opioid, and it was developed as 52 00:03:31,925 --> 00:03:36,165 Speaker 1: a painkiller and anesthetic. Because it's so strong, up to 53 00:03:36,205 --> 00:03:40,325 Speaker 1: one hundred times stronger than morphine, the potential for accidental 54 00:03:40,365 --> 00:03:45,285 Speaker 1: overdose can be huge. Sometimes fentnyl is added to other drugs, 55 00:03:45,485 --> 00:03:48,325 Speaker 1: so people can overdose on fentnyl and have no idea 56 00:03:48,405 --> 00:03:51,685 Speaker 1: that they overtook it. Based on how Ebby sounded to 57 00:03:51,845 --> 00:03:54,725 Speaker 1: Eric and also what Trevor said about his call with her, 58 00:03:55,525 --> 00:03:57,805 Speaker 1: it does seem like Ebby was in some sort of 59 00:03:57,925 --> 00:04:02,765 Speaker 1: very altered state. We talked to toxicology expert doctor Barry 60 00:04:02,805 --> 00:04:07,565 Speaker 1: Guston about the signs of fentnyl overdose. Well, the first 61 00:04:07,605 --> 00:04:10,685 Speaker 1: thing you have to understand what the effects are on 62 00:04:10,845 --> 00:04:14,605 Speaker 1: the body when it's taken in a normal doses. The 63 00:04:14,645 --> 00:04:18,925 Speaker 1: normal doses between twenty five and fifty micrograms per dose. 64 00:04:19,725 --> 00:04:24,565 Speaker 1: We're talking micrograms rather than milligrams. It's one thousand of 65 00:04:24,605 --> 00:04:29,965 Speaker 1: a milligram a microgram, so it's very small. So it's 66 00:04:30,245 --> 00:04:33,405 Speaker 1: effect on the body is the same effect as any opioid. 67 00:04:33,605 --> 00:04:37,645 Speaker 1: You get pain relief, you relaxed, and it get s dated. 68 00:04:38,485 --> 00:04:41,005 Speaker 1: Some people might get a little nauseous from it. But 69 00:04:41,165 --> 00:04:43,485 Speaker 1: when you take an excess amount of it, the amount 70 00:04:44,085 --> 00:04:48,365 Speaker 1: it's an access will produce stupor cause the skin to 71 00:04:48,405 --> 00:04:52,045 Speaker 1: be called and clammy. The person might go into a coma. 72 00:04:52,245 --> 00:04:56,045 Speaker 1: It causes respiratory failure, leading usually leading to death. And 73 00:04:56,085 --> 00:04:58,325 Speaker 1: in the fenel does something else that's interesting that no 74 00:04:58,405 --> 00:05:02,685 Speaker 1: other opioid does. It causes an abnormality in the chest 75 00:05:02,765 --> 00:05:06,245 Speaker 1: wall and the diaphragm. It causes what we call chest 76 00:05:06,325 --> 00:05:09,005 Speaker 1: wall rigidity. And what that does is it makes the 77 00:05:09,045 --> 00:05:11,925 Speaker 1: breathing very very difficult, because if you can't expand your 78 00:05:12,005 --> 00:05:14,365 Speaker 1: chest wall or your diaphragm, you're not going to be 79 00:05:14,405 --> 00:05:18,205 Speaker 1: able to breathe. So not only does it depress respirations 80 00:05:18,285 --> 00:05:21,405 Speaker 1: that you can have a respiratory arrest. It also makes 81 00:05:21,445 --> 00:05:24,525 Speaker 1: it very difficult to breathe because you can't have normal 82 00:05:24,565 --> 00:05:27,285 Speaker 1: excursion of your chest wall and your diaphragm. And is 83 00:05:27,325 --> 00:05:30,885 Speaker 1: it possible for someone who might be overdosing to pass 84 00:05:30,965 --> 00:05:36,245 Speaker 1: out and then wake up and then pass out again? Now, okay, 85 00:05:36,405 --> 00:05:39,365 Speaker 1: so once they're out there out Basically, once they're out, 86 00:05:39,365 --> 00:05:43,125 Speaker 1: they're out. Our case was back in twenty fifteen. Can 87 00:05:43,165 --> 00:05:45,405 Speaker 1: you just talk a little bit about was fitine present 88 00:05:45,485 --> 00:05:49,365 Speaker 1: in twenty fifteen? Oh? Yeah, Fentinel's been around along a 89 00:05:49,365 --> 00:05:52,325 Speaker 1: long time. And you have to think of it this way. 90 00:05:52,445 --> 00:05:57,325 Speaker 1: Opioid overdose deaths I've really become an epidemic in the 91 00:05:57,405 --> 00:06:01,125 Speaker 1: United States. It's a terrible, terrible scourge. And what you 92 00:06:01,325 --> 00:06:04,685 Speaker 1: have to think about is the opioid overdose death can't 93 00:06:04,765 --> 00:06:09,525 Speaker 1: come really three waves. The third wave began in around 94 00:06:09,525 --> 00:06:14,165 Speaker 1: twenty thirteen and we started seeing a ute spink up 95 00:06:14,205 --> 00:06:18,805 Speaker 1: and overdose deaths from these synthetic opioids and have been 96 00:06:18,885 --> 00:06:22,965 Speaker 1: number one culprit. There is fentyl. There's been counterfeit pills. 97 00:06:23,885 --> 00:06:28,405 Speaker 1: Heroin is laced with fentyl, Cocaine is laced with fentyl, 98 00:06:28,885 --> 00:06:31,725 Speaker 1: And the problem is that these deaths that are occurring 99 00:06:32,285 --> 00:06:36,845 Speaker 1: are deaths when the individual doesn't know that they've been 100 00:06:36,965 --> 00:06:41,525 Speaker 1: ingesting fentyl. So the overdose victims are dying after unknowingly 101 00:06:41,765 --> 00:06:46,965 Speaker 1: ingesting the ventyl. That's the problem, right. They're more fentyl 102 00:06:47,085 --> 00:06:51,525 Speaker 1: related deaths now per period of time than cun and 103 00:06:51,765 --> 00:06:57,805 Speaker 1: automobile related deaths combined. So these deaths are no longer 104 00:06:57,925 --> 00:07:02,365 Speaker 1: being treated by the government as accidental death. They're being 105 00:07:02,405 --> 00:07:05,885 Speaker 1: treated as homicides. Well, my last question, and which you 106 00:07:06,085 --> 00:07:09,605 Speaker 1: partially already answered, really is what drugs do spentil appear in. 107 00:07:10,405 --> 00:07:14,085 Speaker 1: I know you mentioned heroin, cocaine pills, what about marijuana? 108 00:07:14,285 --> 00:07:18,125 Speaker 1: About hot Yes, mentioned marijuana too, And I guess there's 109 00:07:18,165 --> 00:07:21,485 Speaker 1: no real way to know what you're buying. There isn't. 110 00:07:24,085 --> 00:07:28,365 Speaker 1: Even if an accidental overdose contributed to Ebbie's death, it 111 00:07:28,445 --> 00:07:33,485 Speaker 1: doesn't explain everything. Why was she in that pipe? We'll 112 00:07:33,525 --> 00:07:39,485 Speaker 1: be right back. An overdose does not explain everything. I 113 00:07:39,765 --> 00:07:42,285 Speaker 1: understand why the police feel like she could have you know, 114 00:07:42,405 --> 00:07:46,645 Speaker 1: this could have happened to her off ofs. But basically 115 00:07:46,685 --> 00:07:49,165 Speaker 1: what I'm trying to say, I see why they can say, oh, yes, 116 00:07:49,205 --> 00:07:52,125 Speaker 1: she overdose, But how can you say somebody put theirselfs 117 00:07:52,125 --> 00:08:00,565 Speaker 1: in the pipe. We've also been getting more details about 118 00:08:00,565 --> 00:08:04,205 Speaker 1: the towel that was found near Ebbie's car. Lee, the 119 00:08:04,285 --> 00:08:07,285 Speaker 1: neighbor who called in the end in car, let Laurie 120 00:08:07,285 --> 00:08:10,285 Speaker 1: know that from the beginning she believed that the way 121 00:08:10,325 --> 00:08:14,725 Speaker 1: the towel was positioned was suspicious. In a text to Laurie, 122 00:08:14,885 --> 00:08:17,605 Speaker 1: Lee wrote that she saw a red towel laying flat 123 00:08:17,605 --> 00:08:20,925 Speaker 1: out beside the back passenger tire, and she wondered if 124 00:08:20,925 --> 00:08:23,165 Speaker 1: someone could have used it to slide themselves down into 125 00:08:23,165 --> 00:08:26,285 Speaker 1: the drain. Now, there are two ways to access the 126 00:08:26,325 --> 00:08:29,125 Speaker 1: storm drain that leads down to the thirteen inch wide 127 00:08:29,125 --> 00:08:32,365 Speaker 1: pipe where Ebby's body was found. Whoever put her down 128 00:08:32,365 --> 00:08:35,285 Speaker 1: there could have lifted the manhole cover, then put her 129 00:08:35,325 --> 00:08:40,325 Speaker 1: there and closed the cover afterwards. But there's also another possibility. 130 00:08:40,565 --> 00:08:42,925 Speaker 1: The gutter that leads down to that drain is wide 131 00:08:43,045 --> 00:08:47,165 Speaker 1: and angles pretty sharply downward, so Ebbie could have slid 132 00:08:47,205 --> 00:08:50,525 Speaker 1: down that way, or someone could have pushed her down 133 00:08:50,565 --> 00:08:54,605 Speaker 1: that way. Lee said that she told the original detective 134 00:08:54,645 --> 00:08:57,845 Speaker 1: on the case, Roy Williams, that she believed the towel 135 00:08:57,845 --> 00:09:01,565 Speaker 1: could be a significant clue from day one, I said 136 00:09:01,605 --> 00:09:06,845 Speaker 1: the towel was used for something she wrote. Lee says 137 00:09:06,885 --> 00:09:09,805 Speaker 1: that after she talked to the police, they basically dismissed 138 00:09:09,805 --> 00:09:13,085 Speaker 1: the towel. They seemed to think that Ebby could have 139 00:09:13,125 --> 00:09:15,365 Speaker 1: been hanging out outside her car or sitting on it. 140 00:09:16,445 --> 00:09:20,005 Speaker 1: But on October twenty fifth, twenty fifteen, according to a 141 00:09:20,045 --> 00:09:23,125 Speaker 1: historical weather day to website, the temperature and Little Rock 142 00:09:23,165 --> 00:09:26,365 Speaker 1: would have been in the fifties. That seems very cold 143 00:09:26,445 --> 00:09:28,245 Speaker 1: for a teenager to get out of the car and 144 00:09:28,325 --> 00:09:31,325 Speaker 1: hang out. Why wouldn't she have stayed inside her car? 145 00:09:31,885 --> 00:09:35,885 Speaker 1: Did something scare her or did something happen there that 146 00:09:35,965 --> 00:09:39,525 Speaker 1: caused her to get out, something unexpected that would have 147 00:09:39,565 --> 00:09:42,845 Speaker 1: caused someone else to slide her into that manhole using 148 00:09:42,885 --> 00:09:46,965 Speaker 1: that towel. Eric's theory was that Ebby could have overdosed 149 00:09:47,405 --> 00:09:49,445 Speaker 1: and then it could have been an accident, and then 150 00:09:49,445 --> 00:09:53,045 Speaker 1: the person or people she was with just panicked. If 151 00:09:53,085 --> 00:09:55,325 Speaker 1: they did, could they have made a split second decision 152 00:09:55,365 --> 00:09:57,605 Speaker 1: to get rid of her body and then put her 153 00:09:57,605 --> 00:10:01,005 Speaker 1: on too that towel? But who was even with Ebby 154 00:10:01,045 --> 00:10:06,365 Speaker 1: that day? There's a photo when Ebby Instagram that she 155 00:10:06,485 --> 00:10:09,925 Speaker 1: posted about a week before she went missing. She's in 156 00:10:10,005 --> 00:10:13,245 Speaker 1: her car in a park. It's Burns Park in North 157 00:10:13,285 --> 00:10:18,125 Speaker 1: Little Rock. Compared to Chalmant, Burns Park is huge and 158 00:10:18,165 --> 00:10:20,045 Speaker 1: it's one of the many parks that Ebbie liked to 159 00:10:20,045 --> 00:10:23,565 Speaker 1: hang out in. And in that photo she's not alone, 160 00:10:24,245 --> 00:10:27,925 Speaker 1: she's with a guy and the caption reads made a 161 00:10:27,965 --> 00:10:32,125 Speaker 1: new friend. When Laurie saw this photo for the first time, 162 00:10:32,485 --> 00:10:36,445 Speaker 1: she immediately knew who this guy was. His name is Leo. 163 00:10:37,485 --> 00:10:41,165 Speaker 1: We've confirmed with multiple sources that Leo and Ebbie used 164 00:10:41,205 --> 00:10:45,125 Speaker 1: to hang out, but according to Laurie, when Leo was 165 00:10:45,245 --> 00:10:48,605 Speaker 1: questioned by the police in twenty fifteen after Ebbie disappeared, 166 00:10:49,405 --> 00:10:53,805 Speaker 1: he told them he didn't know Ebby. So we're trying 167 00:10:53,845 --> 00:10:56,645 Speaker 1: to find out more about him where he is now 168 00:10:56,885 --> 00:11:01,725 Speaker 1: if he'll talk. Leo is also showed up in Ebbie's 169 00:11:01,725 --> 00:11:05,725 Speaker 1: phone records after she went missing. He called a couple 170 00:11:05,765 --> 00:11:09,525 Speaker 1: of times. And Leo is also someone who Eric mentioned 171 00:11:09,605 --> 00:11:12,645 Speaker 1: as being potentially a guy who Ebby might hang around 172 00:11:12,645 --> 00:11:15,285 Speaker 1: within that park. So for all those reasons, we're trying 173 00:11:15,285 --> 00:11:18,765 Speaker 1: to find Leo. But Leo is turning out to be 174 00:11:18,845 --> 00:11:21,885 Speaker 1: hard to find. Mike can't find him on his PI 175 00:11:21,965 --> 00:11:25,165 Speaker 1: database and even though we have a last name, we 176 00:11:25,285 --> 00:11:27,885 Speaker 1: can't find anyone with that exact name who would be 177 00:11:27,925 --> 00:11:32,685 Speaker 1: the correct age. But finally, after making some calls, I 178 00:11:32,765 --> 00:11:35,765 Speaker 1: get a message on Instagram from someone who says they 179 00:11:35,805 --> 00:11:38,525 Speaker 1: know Leo. Well, are you guys okay? If I record this, 180 00:11:38,565 --> 00:11:40,645 Speaker 1: By the way, I don't have to use it. I 181 00:11:40,645 --> 00:11:43,405 Speaker 1: don't have to use it. We're not using this source's 182 00:11:43,445 --> 00:11:47,965 Speaker 1: name because they're scared. They said that Leo moved to 183 00:11:47,965 --> 00:11:50,645 Speaker 1: the Little Rock area from Hot Springs when he was seventeen, 184 00:11:51,485 --> 00:11:54,125 Speaker 1: and that for a period of time he attended Central 185 00:11:54,205 --> 00:11:58,525 Speaker 1: High School. The source says that Leo did hang around 186 00:11:58,525 --> 00:12:01,605 Speaker 1: in a group that included Ebby and some guys. The 187 00:12:01,685 --> 00:12:04,445 Speaker 1: source did not know the guys, but describe them as 188 00:12:04,485 --> 00:12:08,765 Speaker 1: African American. The source said that Ebby, these guys, and 189 00:12:08,885 --> 00:12:12,485 Speaker 1: Leo would all go to parks together. One of the 190 00:12:12,485 --> 00:12:14,045 Speaker 1: things we've been trying to figure out too, is like 191 00:12:14,405 --> 00:12:17,045 Speaker 1: there's a friend group who were kind of around on 192 00:12:17,125 --> 00:12:19,925 Speaker 1: Friday night, and it seems like Leo. I'm just trying 193 00:12:19,925 --> 00:12:21,965 Speaker 1: to figure out where he fits into it, because definitely 194 00:12:22,005 --> 00:12:24,205 Speaker 1: I think that he was going to the park with her, 195 00:12:24,365 --> 00:12:27,645 Speaker 1: either that park or another part maybe Burns Park. But 196 00:12:27,725 --> 00:12:29,205 Speaker 1: he was going to the park with her. I just 197 00:12:29,205 --> 00:12:31,445 Speaker 1: can't figure out how he's connected to the guys on 198 00:12:31,485 --> 00:12:34,405 Speaker 1: Friday night, like if he knew them. Was Leo part 199 00:12:34,445 --> 00:12:36,325 Speaker 1: of the group that Ebbie was with on Friday night 200 00:12:36,965 --> 00:12:39,925 Speaker 1: or could he have been around on Saturday or Sunday. 201 00:12:40,125 --> 00:12:43,325 Speaker 1: According to the source, Leo was hanging out with Ebbie 202 00:12:43,405 --> 00:12:46,045 Speaker 1: in the days before she went missing, and at some 203 00:12:46,125 --> 00:12:48,925 Speaker 1: point he got a call from her where she seemed 204 00:12:48,965 --> 00:12:52,845 Speaker 1: to be very distraught. Well, if he got when he 205 00:12:52,885 --> 00:12:55,565 Speaker 1: got the call where he was really distraught, did he 206 00:12:55,565 --> 00:12:58,685 Speaker 1: ever say anything about what the call was about what 207 00:12:58,885 --> 00:13:02,285 Speaker 1: happened during that call? Did Ebbie call him to tell 208 00:13:02,325 --> 00:13:05,165 Speaker 1: him about the sexual assault or could it have been 209 00:13:05,205 --> 00:13:14,205 Speaker 1: something else. We'll be right back. I know there's a 210 00:13:14,205 --> 00:13:17,565 Speaker 1: little off the subject, but apparently there was a big 211 00:13:17,845 --> 00:13:21,885 Speaker 1: Like Laurie. Tommy Hudson called Laurie yesterday and said, was 212 00:13:22,005 --> 00:13:25,125 Speaker 1: Katherine trying to say that the security guard did something 213 00:13:25,165 --> 00:13:28,205 Speaker 1: to Ebby? And Laurie's like, no, She was asking why 214 00:13:28,205 --> 00:13:31,565 Speaker 1: the story didn't match, and He's like, well, nothing could 215 00:13:31,605 --> 00:13:34,605 Speaker 1: be further from the truth. Like he's been lie detected. 216 00:13:34,725 --> 00:13:37,565 Speaker 1: Someone gave him a lie detector test, and I just 217 00:13:37,725 --> 00:13:40,245 Speaker 1: was kind of like, you know, okay, but how do 218 00:13:40,325 --> 00:13:41,925 Speaker 1: we know that? Did he say he gave him a 219 00:13:41,925 --> 00:13:43,925 Speaker 1: lie detector tests? No, we don't know who did or 220 00:13:43,965 --> 00:13:46,445 Speaker 1: if anyone did. And I'm just not believing what the 221 00:13:46,485 --> 00:13:48,525 Speaker 1: police are saying because we know they've gotten so much 222 00:13:48,565 --> 00:13:51,045 Speaker 1: wrong that I really don't I mean, these are logical 223 00:13:51,125 --> 00:13:55,005 Speaker 1: questions you'd be asking anyone at this point. So anyway, 224 00:13:55,085 --> 00:13:58,725 Speaker 1: just letting you know that's going on. Even with our 225 00:13:58,805 --> 00:14:01,845 Speaker 1: questions about the security guard and about several other people, 226 00:14:02,565 --> 00:14:06,125 Speaker 1: it still looks like the LRPD or no longer going 227 00:14:06,125 --> 00:14:09,725 Speaker 1: to work on the case. In Detective Bruce Maxwell's words 228 00:14:09,725 --> 00:14:13,205 Speaker 1: and an email to Laurie, quote there is no more 229 00:14:13,245 --> 00:14:16,805 Speaker 1: work to be done on the case end quote. But 230 00:14:17,485 --> 00:14:20,605 Speaker 1: it's strange because Bruce is also confirmed that he has 231 00:14:20,725 --> 00:14:24,365 Speaker 1: no idea where Ebbie was on Saturday night. And another 232 00:14:24,485 --> 00:14:27,645 Speaker 1: question that hasn't been answered is what about Ebbie's phones. 233 00:14:28,405 --> 00:14:30,765 Speaker 1: So this whole time, there's been a question about whether 234 00:14:30,805 --> 00:14:33,885 Speaker 1: Ebbie could have had a second phone, and now it 235 00:14:33,925 --> 00:14:36,805 Speaker 1: looks like she definitely did have a second phone. Laurie 236 00:14:36,845 --> 00:14:40,805 Speaker 1: told us that shortly before Ebbie went missing, Ebbie switched 237 00:14:41,045 --> 00:14:46,685 Speaker 1: her phone with another friend, of hers. The friend who 238 00:14:46,765 --> 00:14:50,565 Speaker 1: Laurie believes that Ebbie switched phones with is Kaylee, the 239 00:14:50,645 --> 00:14:53,325 Speaker 1: same friend who searched Chamant Park with her mom right 240 00:14:53,365 --> 00:14:57,805 Speaker 1: after Ebbie disappeared. They're the ones who smelled decomposition. They 241 00:14:57,845 --> 00:15:01,125 Speaker 1: call the police and according to Kayley and her mom, 242 00:15:01,285 --> 00:15:04,045 Speaker 1: law enforcement kind of blew them off and said it 243 00:15:04,085 --> 00:15:06,765 Speaker 1: must have been an animal or something else. But it 244 00:15:06,845 --> 00:15:10,085 Speaker 1: seems now that that could have been a hugely important tip. 245 00:15:11,285 --> 00:15:13,925 Speaker 1: The fact that Ebbie could have switched phones with a 246 00:15:13,965 --> 00:15:16,365 Speaker 1: friend of hers has never been brought up in our 247 00:15:16,405 --> 00:15:20,245 Speaker 1: conversations with police, and if Ebbie did switch phones with 248 00:15:20,285 --> 00:15:23,605 Speaker 1: a friend, then that friend could have access to some 249 00:15:23,685 --> 00:15:27,245 Speaker 1: information that has never been seen. So that could be 250 00:15:27,485 --> 00:15:32,845 Speaker 1: very significant because apparently some of the messages in the cloud, 251 00:15:33,165 --> 00:15:36,365 Speaker 1: like Kaylee was still getting Ebbie's messages in the cloud 252 00:15:36,485 --> 00:15:39,285 Speaker 1: and some of her data and pictures, which could be 253 00:15:39,405 --> 00:15:44,085 Speaker 1: very significant because if that was going on, then Ebbie's 254 00:15:44,125 --> 00:15:47,485 Speaker 1: phone could have had some of Kayley's data and the 255 00:15:47,565 --> 00:15:50,965 Speaker 1: police have been saying that they had, like Bruce Maxwell 256 00:15:51,045 --> 00:15:53,965 Speaker 1: recently said he went through six thousand photos on Ebbie's 257 00:15:53,965 --> 00:15:57,045 Speaker 1: phone that apparently no one had looked through, and he's 258 00:15:57,085 --> 00:16:01,245 Speaker 1: basing his timeline on those photos. So my question would be, 259 00:16:01,765 --> 00:16:04,845 Speaker 1: can we be absolutely sure that those were Ebbie's photos 260 00:16:05,125 --> 00:16:08,365 Speaker 1: and weren't corrupted with some of the other data from 261 00:16:08,405 --> 00:16:10,725 Speaker 1: you know, Kayley's phone. I don't even know if he's 262 00:16:10,765 --> 00:16:13,085 Speaker 1: aware of that. I don't think Bruce has spoken to her, 263 00:16:13,605 --> 00:16:15,725 Speaker 1: And I'm also wondering why doesn't he just, you know, 264 00:16:15,805 --> 00:16:17,525 Speaker 1: call Kayley and say, hey, can you look through these 265 00:16:17,565 --> 00:16:19,045 Speaker 1: photos and tell me if any of them are you 266 00:16:19,525 --> 00:16:23,325 Speaker 1: or yours. The only thing I would ask is if 267 00:16:23,365 --> 00:16:27,005 Speaker 1: she does allow us to look at the phone, we 268 00:16:27,085 --> 00:16:31,085 Speaker 1: need to ask her if she factory reset that phone 269 00:16:31,765 --> 00:16:34,765 Speaker 1: anytime between now and then. Did you just get a 270 00:16:34,805 --> 00:16:37,085 Speaker 1: new phone and just kept that phone and it's been 271 00:16:37,165 --> 00:16:40,085 Speaker 1: off or have you? Like we need to know some 272 00:16:40,165 --> 00:16:44,285 Speaker 1: things about the phone. If it's an older iPhone, you 273 00:16:44,405 --> 00:16:46,725 Speaker 1: may still able to pull data off of it. Some 274 00:16:46,805 --> 00:16:49,445 Speaker 1: of the newer iPhones when you factory reset it may 275 00:16:49,565 --> 00:16:52,805 Speaker 1: it renders the data cryptographically inaccessible, which means you need 276 00:16:52,845 --> 00:16:54,805 Speaker 1: to go to a lab in order for them to 277 00:16:54,845 --> 00:16:57,885 Speaker 1: pull all the old data off of it. But if 278 00:16:57,965 --> 00:17:01,085 Speaker 1: like it's still there and some of that stuff is there, 279 00:17:01,205 --> 00:17:04,285 Speaker 1: we can rip the handset. If Kayley will allow us 280 00:17:04,285 --> 00:17:06,245 Speaker 1: to do it. I mean, we can turn that over 281 00:17:06,285 --> 00:17:10,165 Speaker 1: to law enforcement if if we so desire. After we 282 00:17:10,685 --> 00:17:13,525 Speaker 1: look through the data, I put out a call to 283 00:17:13,605 --> 00:17:16,525 Speaker 1: Kayley and we made a plan to talk sometime in 284 00:17:16,565 --> 00:17:20,405 Speaker 1: the next few days. Though we have not yet been 285 00:17:20,445 --> 00:17:23,005 Speaker 1: able to identify the two men who were patrolling with 286 00:17:23,005 --> 00:17:26,925 Speaker 1: a security guard, we do have some more information. People 287 00:17:26,965 --> 00:17:29,205 Speaker 1: have been texting and calling our tipline now that the 288 00:17:29,245 --> 00:17:32,485 Speaker 1: podcast is coming out, and Laurie has also been getting calls. 289 00:17:33,285 --> 00:17:35,645 Speaker 1: Some of them say they have information about the case. 290 00:17:36,205 --> 00:17:38,765 Speaker 1: I know from Laurie. I just I've seen the message 291 00:17:38,765 --> 00:17:42,045 Speaker 1: you sent her and I guess, just tell me what 292 00:17:42,165 --> 00:17:46,605 Speaker 1: you what you know? Well, a few years ago, this 293 00:17:46,765 --> 00:17:50,405 Speaker 1: is Leslie. She met Laurie through her hairdresser because she 294 00:17:50,485 --> 00:17:54,165 Speaker 1: went to the same salon where Laurie worked. So I've 295 00:17:54,285 --> 00:17:56,485 Speaker 1: sat next door while she's getting my hair done for 296 00:17:56,565 --> 00:17:58,365 Speaker 1: years and talking to her name and would run in 297 00:17:58,365 --> 00:18:01,205 Speaker 1: and out when she was yumping heavy within my son's 298 00:18:01,205 --> 00:18:05,445 Speaker 1: graduating class at Central High School and so she would 299 00:18:05,565 --> 00:18:08,525 Speaker 1: have graduated with him. So it was very personal to 300 00:18:08,565 --> 00:18:11,005 Speaker 1: all of us, especially since she went missing from a 301 00:18:11,125 --> 00:18:14,565 Speaker 1: par park our pool and that was where her car 302 00:18:14,725 --> 00:18:18,805 Speaker 1: was found. After Ebbie went missing, Leslie did whatever she 303 00:18:18,925 --> 00:18:22,285 Speaker 1: could to help Laurie. I put up posters, you know, 304 00:18:22,325 --> 00:18:25,965 Speaker 1: everywhere I went, thinking that perhaps she was being trafficked. 305 00:18:26,005 --> 00:18:29,685 Speaker 1: We were just very, very very upset about it. And 306 00:18:29,965 --> 00:18:34,125 Speaker 1: I kept saying, I I just can't believe the story 307 00:18:34,205 --> 00:18:37,565 Speaker 1: of being trafficked. Did search for her? My husband and 308 00:18:37,605 --> 00:18:38,965 Speaker 1: I and my friend and I would go up there 309 00:18:38,965 --> 00:18:41,765 Speaker 1: and walk around, and I would just get the hairs 310 00:18:41,765 --> 00:18:43,605 Speaker 1: in the back of my neck would stand up. And 311 00:18:44,005 --> 00:18:46,885 Speaker 1: when I went over there, and I just said, something 312 00:18:47,205 --> 00:18:50,285 Speaker 1: bad happened here, and they need to figure this out, 313 00:18:50,445 --> 00:18:52,925 Speaker 1: and why are they not looking for her more diligently. 314 00:18:56,125 --> 00:18:59,845 Speaker 1: Leslie lives in Shannall Valley, in a neighborhood very close 315 00:18:59,885 --> 00:19:03,365 Speaker 1: to Schalmont Park, So she was part of the neighborhood 316 00:19:03,565 --> 00:19:07,365 Speaker 1: that Guy Hooper regularly patrol. And this is why she 317 00:19:07,445 --> 00:19:11,125 Speaker 1: called me. She tells me she's not seen anyone matching 318 00:19:11,165 --> 00:19:13,885 Speaker 1: the description of the young black men who Michael mentioned 319 00:19:13,925 --> 00:19:15,645 Speaker 1: seeing that day when he went to look for Ebbie 320 00:19:15,765 --> 00:19:19,845 Speaker 1: shortly after she went missing. But Leslie said she does 321 00:19:20,005 --> 00:19:22,405 Speaker 1: know for a fact that there was someone else who 322 00:19:22,405 --> 00:19:26,605 Speaker 1: patrolled the area regularly with Guy Hooper. This is extremely 323 00:19:26,685 --> 00:19:31,005 Speaker 1: surprising to me because during this entire investigation, no one 324 00:19:31,085 --> 00:19:36,125 Speaker 1: has ever mentioned this other person even mentioned which is 325 00:19:36,125 --> 00:19:38,165 Speaker 1: why see the thing for me, And I'm sorry, that's 326 00:19:38,205 --> 00:19:41,405 Speaker 1: why I said look that up. The person who patrolled 327 00:19:41,445 --> 00:19:46,565 Speaker 1: regularly with Guy Hooper was his son, Josh. Leslie said 328 00:19:46,645 --> 00:19:49,605 Speaker 1: she never had a good feeling about them. She says 329 00:19:49,605 --> 00:19:53,285 Speaker 1: they'd drive around and beat up cars and often patrol 330 00:19:53,445 --> 00:19:57,365 Speaker 1: around dusk. Then there was another unsettling incident she remembered 331 00:19:57,405 --> 00:20:00,605 Speaker 1: about them. I do believe it was before twenty eleven. 332 00:20:01,485 --> 00:20:05,725 Speaker 1: He was involved, and I believe his son was for 333 00:20:05,805 --> 00:20:09,485 Speaker 1: him at the time. This was on the news. But anyway, 334 00:20:10,045 --> 00:20:13,765 Speaker 1: there was a robbery outside of Chanal, not really in 335 00:20:14,005 --> 00:20:17,925 Speaker 1: Chenal proper. He and his company they saw somehow a 336 00:20:18,285 --> 00:20:22,525 Speaker 1: robbery and progress at a pharmacy and chased the people 337 00:20:22,885 --> 00:20:26,245 Speaker 1: and they chased him into one of the Chanal neighborhoods 338 00:20:26,485 --> 00:20:30,325 Speaker 1: and in the process of this, somehow someone ended up 339 00:20:30,325 --> 00:20:33,805 Speaker 1: getting shot and killed. Of the robbers, there's two or 340 00:20:33,805 --> 00:20:38,485 Speaker 1: three of them by one of the Hoopers. Leslie can't 341 00:20:38,525 --> 00:20:41,845 Speaker 1: find the newspaper articles about this now, but she and 342 00:20:41,885 --> 00:20:45,445 Speaker 1: her family also had another unfortunate encounter with the hoopers. 343 00:20:46,085 --> 00:20:48,645 Speaker 1: We had a personal experience with him that was bad 344 00:20:48,805 --> 00:20:53,285 Speaker 1: and where my son was involved. He was a last 345 00:20:53,285 --> 00:20:56,885 Speaker 1: guard at one of the fools here and when he 346 00:20:56,965 --> 00:20:59,725 Speaker 1: was a senior, I mean between senior and college summer, 347 00:21:00,405 --> 00:21:03,565 Speaker 1: you're very young. And he and his friends were out 348 00:21:03,725 --> 00:21:06,685 Speaker 1: running around and he said, Hey, I've got to the pool. 349 00:21:06,685 --> 00:21:08,165 Speaker 1: Do you want to go to the pool? And they're 350 00:21:08,165 --> 00:21:09,885 Speaker 1: all like, go, oh, yeah, of course, you know there 351 00:21:09,885 --> 00:21:12,685 Speaker 1: should be doing that. He was an employee, but he 352 00:21:12,805 --> 00:21:16,445 Speaker 1: did go there after hours and let him in. Leslie's 353 00:21:16,445 --> 00:21:18,725 Speaker 1: son and his friends went into the pool without permission 354 00:21:18,725 --> 00:21:22,165 Speaker 1: after hours, not the pool at Shawmont Park, but a 355 00:21:22,205 --> 00:21:26,085 Speaker 1: pool in a neighborhood nearby. But apparently after they went 356 00:21:26,125 --> 00:21:29,965 Speaker 1: in there, the hooper spotted them. And what happened next 357 00:21:30,205 --> 00:21:34,245 Speaker 1: was extremely disturbing. They came in there and they basically, 358 00:21:34,365 --> 00:21:36,565 Speaker 1: you know, made him get on their their knees and said, 359 00:21:36,605 --> 00:21:38,485 Speaker 1: you know, y'all are in really big trouble and I 360 00:21:38,485 --> 00:21:41,645 Speaker 1: could have blown your head off and said this multiple times, 361 00:21:40,925 --> 00:21:43,805 Speaker 1: and the police came. And I don't know who calls 362 00:21:43,805 --> 00:21:45,685 Speaker 1: the police. I don't know if David, I don't know 363 00:21:45,725 --> 00:21:48,005 Speaker 1: who did. But the police came and said you know, 364 00:21:48,045 --> 00:21:50,925 Speaker 1: you need to calm down. Security guards are supposed to 365 00:21:50,925 --> 00:21:54,765 Speaker 1: de escalate situations, and according to the source we spoke 366 00:21:54,805 --> 00:21:58,285 Speaker 1: to from the homeowners association, the reason they had a 367 00:21:58,325 --> 00:22:01,085 Speaker 1: security guard around there in the first place was mainly 368 00:22:01,165 --> 00:22:05,045 Speaker 1: to deter crime, not to detain people. And when the 369 00:22:05,045 --> 00:22:08,325 Speaker 1: police came, Leslie says that even they were telling the 370 00:22:08,365 --> 00:22:11,325 Speaker 1: Hoopers they needed to calm down, and he was like 371 00:22:11,405 --> 00:22:14,285 Speaker 1: insistent that they give them all tickets. We had to 372 00:22:14,325 --> 00:22:17,245 Speaker 1: go to court over it, and here fine, which is 373 00:22:17,885 --> 00:22:19,845 Speaker 1: mean he lost his job, and that's fine because he 374 00:22:19,885 --> 00:22:21,845 Speaker 1: did break the rules and he shouldn't have been there 375 00:22:21,885 --> 00:22:25,445 Speaker 1: after hours. But I mean, the people of the court 376 00:22:25,485 --> 00:22:27,765 Speaker 1: couldn't believe it that this had made such a big 377 00:22:27,805 --> 00:22:29,725 Speaker 1: deal about this. Then the police even said, you know, 378 00:22:29,805 --> 00:22:32,325 Speaker 1: this is your overboard on this. This is crazy. These 379 00:22:32,405 --> 00:22:34,285 Speaker 1: kids have done. All they're doing is sitting there talking 380 00:22:34,325 --> 00:22:37,765 Speaker 1: around the pool. They really weren't doing anything. Leslie said 381 00:22:37,845 --> 00:22:40,925 Speaker 1: that most of the people in the neighborhood, especially after 382 00:22:41,045 --> 00:22:45,525 Speaker 1: incidents like these, didn't like the Hooper's patrolling. She said 383 00:22:45,565 --> 00:22:47,925 Speaker 1: she didn't really even understand why they needed to be 384 00:22:47,965 --> 00:22:51,165 Speaker 1: there in the first place, but she admitted people were 385 00:22:51,165 --> 00:22:54,445 Speaker 1: reluctant to complain about them because of what she described 386 00:22:54,485 --> 00:23:01,245 Speaker 1: as a fear of retaliation. Leslie remembers the day when 387 00:23:01,245 --> 00:23:05,045 Speaker 1: Ebbie's body was found, and then when they found her, 388 00:23:05,805 --> 00:23:08,445 Speaker 1: I was like, I drove past and I saw it. 389 00:23:08,485 --> 00:23:11,045 Speaker 1: I was like, oh my god, They've found her finally, 390 00:23:11,605 --> 00:23:13,525 Speaker 1: and she's right there right what we all said. She 391 00:23:13,645 --> 00:23:18,285 Speaker 1: probably was the entire time. And it's just so so 392 00:23:18,525 --> 00:23:21,725 Speaker 1: awful for Laurie and Michael and everybody in Trevor and 393 00:23:21,765 --> 00:23:27,445 Speaker 1: everybody hear us that have suffered so long. After Ebby's 394 00:23:27,445 --> 00:23:30,485 Speaker 1: body was found and with the information and her general 395 00:23:30,525 --> 00:23:35,245 Speaker 1: feeling about the Hoopers, Leslie called Tommy Hudson. Anyway, I 396 00:23:35,245 --> 00:23:39,485 Speaker 1: called Tommy Hudson. Oh no, when maybe three years ago, 397 00:23:40,245 --> 00:23:43,965 Speaker 1: after they discovered Every's body and all this came out 398 00:23:44,085 --> 00:23:46,885 Speaker 1: about him seeing her at the you know, there was 399 00:23:46,925 --> 00:23:50,685 Speaker 1: a couple of conflicting stories from him. Leslie told Tommy 400 00:23:50,765 --> 00:23:52,725 Speaker 1: about the story with the Hoopers and her son and 401 00:23:52,725 --> 00:23:56,125 Speaker 1: the robbery case from twenty eleven. When I did tell 402 00:23:56,165 --> 00:23:58,485 Speaker 1: Tommy Hudson, he said, well, I'll check into that, but 403 00:23:58,845 --> 00:24:01,325 Speaker 1: you know, he kind of shouted off to his other officers. 404 00:24:01,365 --> 00:24:03,405 Speaker 1: Says that na I heard about this where the Hoopers 405 00:24:03,405 --> 00:24:06,085 Speaker 1: shot someone and they said, no, no, we don't have 406 00:24:06,085 --> 00:24:07,645 Speaker 1: any record. We don't know. I said, well, you need 407 00:24:07,685 --> 00:24:09,405 Speaker 1: to look into that because it was on the news. 408 00:24:09,405 --> 00:24:11,645 Speaker 1: I don't know how it could not be there. How 409 00:24:11,765 --> 00:24:14,605 Speaker 1: in a world did that story get lost? And I've 410 00:24:15,085 --> 00:24:16,885 Speaker 1: said the Tommy when he was on the case and 411 00:24:16,965 --> 00:24:18,685 Speaker 1: said you have to look at him. But oh, he 412 00:24:18,725 --> 00:24:21,685 Speaker 1: has been cleared, that's what he said. And I said, well, 413 00:24:22,325 --> 00:24:25,485 Speaker 1: I don't know how. I told him my stories and 414 00:24:25,525 --> 00:24:28,005 Speaker 1: he was like, well, I'll look into that, and then 415 00:24:28,485 --> 00:24:30,245 Speaker 1: nothing ever came about. I never I said, well, here's 416 00:24:30,285 --> 00:24:32,885 Speaker 1: my number, and he never called me back. So who 417 00:24:33,045 --> 00:24:37,205 Speaker 1: is Josh Hooper? Unlike his dad, he's fairly easy to 418 00:24:37,245 --> 00:24:41,005 Speaker 1: find on social media. He apparently lives in Sherwood, Arkansas 419 00:24:41,125 --> 00:24:45,285 Speaker 1: and runs a foreign company. We find his address and 420 00:24:46,045 --> 00:24:49,525 Speaker 1: we also found a phone number for Leo. It's time 421 00:24:49,565 --> 00:24:54,325 Speaker 1: to make some calls. I'm Katherine Townsend. This is Hell 422 00:24:54,365 --> 00:24:59,765 Speaker 1: and Gone. Helen Gone is a production of School of 423 00:24:59,845 --> 00:25:03,445 Speaker 1: Humans and iHeartRadio. It's written and hosted by me Katherine 424 00:25:03,485 --> 00:25:07,805 Speaker 1: Townsend and produced by Gabby and Mike Doubt. Our executive 425 00:25:07,845 --> 00:25:12,565 Speaker 1: producers are Brandon Barr Else Crowley and Virginia Prescott. Mix 426 00:25:12,645 --> 00:25:15,645 Speaker 1: and Master is by Ryan Peoples and our music is 427 00:25:15,685 --> 00:25:20,045 Speaker 1: by Ben Sale. If you have any information regarding Ebbie's case, 428 00:25:20,765 --> 00:25:24,165 Speaker 1: please call our tipline at six seven eight six three 429 00:25:24,245 --> 00:25:48,365 Speaker 1: two six one five nine. School of Humans, School of 430 00:25:48,445 --> 00:25:48,845 Speaker 1: Humans