1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:02,480 Speaker 1: Welcome to Zero. I am Akshatarati. 2 00:00:02,840 --> 00:00:19,439 Speaker 2: This week Al Gore on a Rogue US. Last week 3 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:22,040 Speaker 2: at COPP, I had the great privilege of speaking with 4 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:25,959 Speaker 2: former US Vice President Al Gore, one of the grandees 5 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 2: of the climate world. His film An Inconvenient Truth won 6 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:33,560 Speaker 2: him an OSCAR and has inspired generations of climate activists, 7 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 2: and alongside the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, he was 8 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:41,599 Speaker 2: awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for his efforts to obtain 9 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 2: and disseminate information about the climate challenge. Vice President Gore 10 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:49,200 Speaker 2: has been a guest on Zero before, back in twenty 11 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:52,519 Speaker 2: twenty three, when a lot of wind seemed to be 12 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 2: in the sales of climate action. But since Trump's return 13 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 2: to office, those fair winds have dropped, at least in 14 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 2: the US, and climate action seems on a much more 15 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:06,039 Speaker 2: turbulent course worldwide. So I wanted to catch up with 16 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 2: Vice President Core to hear what his experience in the 17 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 2: US government and his understanding of how the US can 18 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 2: wield power on the global stage can teach us about 19 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 2: the current moment. We had a wide ranging conversation at 20 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:21,040 Speaker 2: COP thirty in plen and we are going to split 21 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 2: that conversation over the next two episodes, Part one today 22 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:25,280 Speaker 2: and part two on. 23 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 1: Thursday this week. 24 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:29,039 Speaker 2: Subscribe to zero to hear part two later in the week, 25 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 2: and send me a feedback on zero pod at Bloomberg 26 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 2: dot net. 27 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:34,040 Speaker 1: For now. 28 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:36,759 Speaker 2: Here is part one of my conversation with Al Gore, 29 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 2: recorded at a live event at Ted coumdown House during 30 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 2: COP thirty in Brazil. We'll discuss how countries should deal 31 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 2: with the rogue US, whether countries are being pulled into 32 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 2: China's orbit ais climate impact, and how to depolarize climate action. 33 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 2: Vice President Akshatt Welcome to Ted Kanda House, as Paul. 34 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 3: Simon saying, you can call me al either that or 35 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:09,359 Speaker 3: your adequacy. 36 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:11,639 Speaker 1: So I know we are at a climate summit. 37 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 2: We'll talk a lot about climate, but I want to 38 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:17,799 Speaker 2: start with a bigger question. The US government is attacking 39 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 2: the rules based order that previous administrations help build. How 40 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 2: exactly should were leaders deal with a rogue US when 41 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 2: they are worried about defending their borders that are dependent 42 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 2: on US guarantees, when they are worried about maintaining their 43 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 2: industry that is dependent on US exports that they make, 44 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 2: when they are dependent on US for an aid to 45 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 2: fight poverty when they aren't able to keep visual on 46 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 2: the infectious diseases that could become the next pandemic that 47 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:51,919 Speaker 2: the US is now cutting outbreak monitoring for. 48 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 1: How to deal with the rogue US? 49 00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, everybody wants to know the answer to that question. 50 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:02,520 Speaker 3: And I wish I knew a definitive answer oxshot. But yes, 51 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 3: under President Trump, his administration is launching an assault on 52 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 3: the rules based order. And the rules based order also depends, 53 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 3: at the most basic foundational level on a decent respect 54 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 3: for truthfulness in communications among nations and within democracies, and 55 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 3: he has discarded any notion of respecting truthfulness, and so 56 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 3: it's a major challenge for the entire world. However, it's 57 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 3: important not to over emphasize the singular importance of the 58 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 3: US in the world system. It's natural that we do that, 59 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 3: in part because for the last seventy plus years since 60 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 3: World War Two, the US has been the natural leader 61 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 3: of the world system. Forgive me if that sounds like 62 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 3: too much American pride, but it's been the case and 63 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 3: widely recognized. And so now when that changes, there's a 64 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 3: natural inclination to say, oh my gosh, what now, But 65 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 3: to put it in the context of climate Ten years 66 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 3: ago in Paris, one hundred and ninety five nations assigned 67 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:29,480 Speaker 3: the agreement. Only one has withdrawn only one. And a 68 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:32,600 Speaker 3: friend of mine who's the leader of another country said, 69 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 3: you know, there's an equation that's worth remembering. One hundred 70 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 3: and ninety five minus one does not equal zero, and 71 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 3: to say that a different way. Even though there is 72 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 3: a great deal of harm and even more risk associated 73 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:54,080 Speaker 3: with the US withdrawal from Paris and withdrawal from the 74 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:58,719 Speaker 3: rule space to order, it does also create a space 75 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:03,599 Speaker 3: with in which other nations can discover a new path 76 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 3: for themselves. There is no other successor to the US 77 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:13,719 Speaker 3: as the leader of the world system that is easily identified. 78 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:18,640 Speaker 3: The EU has the base of values that most people 79 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:21,720 Speaker 3: around the world have respected when they look at the US, 80 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 3: But they have a multiple voices problem and a very 81 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:29,800 Speaker 3: fine chief executive, but not a strong chief executive. It 82 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 3: could be they could evolve into a role of that sort. 83 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 3: China very much wants to be the successor to the US, 84 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 3: but because they do not share the values, or at 85 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 3: least do not manifest in their behavior and their laws 86 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 3: and policies, the values that most people around the world 87 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 3: aspired to. I think it's highly unlikely that the world 88 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 3: will follow China. So we're in this period where one 89 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:03,599 Speaker 3: era is ending and the other is struggling to be born. 90 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:08,800 Speaker 3: One of the great poets in the Spanish language, Antonio Machado, said, traveler, 91 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:12,479 Speaker 3: there is no road. You must make the path as 92 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 3: you walk. And I think that's the situation that we 93 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 3: are we're confronting now. But people are continuing to move 94 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 3: in the right direction. You know, if you look in 95 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:28,359 Speaker 3: the US in the first year of well, look last 96 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 3: year in the US at all the new electricity generation installed, 97 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 3: ninety seven percent was renewable. That's unlikely to change very much, 98 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:45,280 Speaker 3: at least just because Donald Trump says, reopen these coal plants, 99 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:49,279 Speaker 3: stop building new renewables. It's like King Canute saying stop 100 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:53,840 Speaker 3: the tide. You know, it doesn't work. And now it 101 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:58,600 Speaker 3: does have some implications, of course, and it emboldens bad 102 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:01,360 Speaker 3: actors like Saudi e ray Be, for example, to be 103 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 3: more even more aggressive in trying to halt any kind 104 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 3: of climate solutions. And it also gives a little bit 105 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 3: of cover to some forces within Allied countries that are 106 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 3: not enthusiastic about climate solutions gives them a little covert 107 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:22,240 Speaker 3: to slow things down a little bit. But overall, if 108 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:26,360 Speaker 3: I could offer you a visual metaphor, what I see 109 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 3: in my perception of the world is there's a big 110 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:33,559 Speaker 3: wheel turning very powerfully in the right direction, and within 111 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 3: it there's some little wheels going in the opposite in direction, 112 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 3: and we tend to focus on each one of those 113 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 3: little wheels that pops up, but even they are being 114 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 3: moved inexorably in the direction of this sustainability revolution, which 115 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 3: has the magnitude of the industrial revolution coupled with the 116 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 3: speed of the digital revolution. It is unstoppable. I'm thoroughly 117 00:07:56,320 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 3: confident on that. Solar electricity famously is the cheapest actress 118 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 3: the entire history of the world, and it continues to 119 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 3: get a cheaper still, wind is almost there. The only 120 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 3: thing that's come down faster in costs and photo all 121 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 3: takes is utility scale batteries, and now they're being installed 122 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 3: throughout the grid. So I think that this very shocking 123 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:22,480 Speaker 3: change in the posture of the United States under Donald 124 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 3: Trump is unfortunate. It's regrettable, but let's don't overreact to it. 125 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:35,600 Speaker 3: Let's keep moving because the world is continuing to move 126 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 3: in the right direction. 127 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:40,680 Speaker 2: Countries definitely react to crises with creative solutions, and we 128 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 2: are starting to see that in many places. But it's 129 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 2: important also to note that it's not just attack on 130 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 2: the rules based order, it's breaking norms of all kinds. 131 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:55,079 Speaker 1: So here at cop we have to get any agreement 132 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 1: through consensus. 133 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 2: I'm going to come to you about copery form a 134 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 2: little bit later, but there are other multi latter forums 135 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:03,680 Speaker 2: where you can get a majority vote to be able 136 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 2: to force the world. 137 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 1: To follow a path. 138 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 2: And so for the last many years, the International Maritime 139 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 2: Organization has been working to try and get a global 140 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 2: carbon tax on shipping, which could have the kinds of 141 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 2: implication that Paris Agreement had where there would be a 142 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 2: global price on carbon. 143 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 1: Finally, and we were very close in October. 144 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 2: Countries were very confident that they had enough votes for 145 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 2: a majority decision, that's all that was needed. And then 146 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 2: comes in the US and we have heard extraordinary stories 147 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:38,080 Speaker 2: of what happened to try and get that vote sunk, 148 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 2: which the US was a part of norms of all 149 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:44,600 Speaker 2: sorts broken, not just threats made to countries on the 150 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 2: White House website saying. 151 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 1: We'll tire a few if you vote for it. 152 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 2: But personal calls made to diplomats, to bureaucrats saying we'll 153 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 2: revoke your visa to the US, that we'll put individual sanctions. Now, 154 00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 2: as Vice president, you know how much power where the 155 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 2: US can veield on the global stage. How should countries 156 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 2: be preparing for what other types of shenanigans come from 157 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:10,679 Speaker 2: the US? 158 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 3: Well, they should stiffen their spines. And by the way, 159 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 3: what happened with the IMO is a specific example of 160 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:23,560 Speaker 3: a dynamic that I referred to earlier. I don't think 161 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 3: and people who know more about these negotiations than I 162 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 3: do have also come to the conclusion that it's unlikely 163 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:36,880 Speaker 3: Saudi Arabia would have deep six played the role they 164 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:41,079 Speaker 3: did if they had not been able to hide behind 165 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:45,959 Speaker 3: Trump and pushed along with Trump. So we do need 166 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 3: to beware of other such situations. We saw it on 167 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 3: the Plastics treaty as well and other negotiations. So you know, 168 00:10:55,880 --> 00:11:00,320 Speaker 3: this is a time for nations around the world world 169 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 3: who understand how much of our future is at risk 170 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:07,840 Speaker 3: to be firm and stand up. I had a mentor 171 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 3: when I was a child who said, we all face 172 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 3: the same choice in life over and over again. It's 173 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:18,839 Speaker 3: the choice between the hard right and the easy wrong. 174 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 3: And I'm sure that resonates with a lot of people 175 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 3: in our personal lives. We face that throughout our lives. 176 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:31,760 Speaker 3: Nations also face it, and right now it's particularly important 177 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 3: for nations to send up to this bullying. And I 178 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 3: was glad, for example, that the United Kingdom and some 179 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 3: other nations took the stand they just did on the 180 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:50,560 Speaker 3: blowing up of these boats in the Caribbean. You know, 181 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:55,320 Speaker 3: these are snuff movies. This is murder for entertainment, and 182 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:59,440 Speaker 3: the UK and others said no, we cannot abide by this. 183 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 3: And there's so many other The Catholic bishops just made 184 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 3: a conservative group in the main just made a very 185 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 3: bold and brave statement on the mass deportations without proper 186 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:18,560 Speaker 3: due process. And when the next climate proposal comes up, 187 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 3: when the next international treaty of any sort, where they 188 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 3: try to bully other nations to make the wrong choice, 189 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 3: the easy wrong choice, it's important for nations to stand up. 190 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:33,440 Speaker 3: I mean, Trump himself is a kind of an emergency 191 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:37,080 Speaker 3: facing the world. There will not be a third Trump term. 192 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:42,960 Speaker 3: He has definitively Finally, even stopped joking about that. So 193 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 3: there is a lame duck a vibe that is new 194 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 3: in Washington. The elections a week ago Tuesday were a 195 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 3: dramatic surprise for most of the prognosticators who predicted and 196 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 3: our state of New Jersey, for example, they thought, well, 197 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:05,200 Speaker 3: either candidate can win. We don't really know what she 198 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 3: won by a much a huge landslide, massive landslide. Same 199 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 3: thing in Virginia, same thing in two important elections in Georgia, 200 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 3: elections in Pennsylvania, on the Supreme Court, the California redistricting plan. Now, 201 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 3: there's no way to look at a crystal ball and 202 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 3: assure yourself that that's going to determine the results a 203 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 3: year from this month and the off term congressional elections. 204 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:36,360 Speaker 3: But I guarantee you that Republican members of the House 205 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 3: and Senate paid very close attention. And we've seen now 206 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:43,079 Speaker 3: four Republican Senators break from the President on one of 207 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 3: the major tariff votes. We've seen several House Republicans break 208 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 3: with him on some of the economic policy votes and 209 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 3: on some other matters. We also have seen the Supreme 210 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:01,280 Speaker 3: Court take a very different approach and the oral arguments 211 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 3: two weeks ago. I'm getting into the weeds here a 212 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 3: little bit, but it's important because the oral arguments on 213 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:11,720 Speaker 3: the Big tariff case convinced many observers of the Supreme 214 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 3: Court that the deference or obsequiousness that the Supreme Court 215 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 3: has shown to Trump in so many other cases over 216 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 3: the last year is not going to prevail in this case. 217 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:27,800 Speaker 3: I don't know it's a prediction, but it sure seems 218 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 3: as if they may take away his radical, unstable use 219 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 3: of care. I mean, no single person should have that 220 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 3: much falls, especially in the United States. My larger point, though, 221 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 3: is that there may be a change. We may have 222 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 3: passed peak Trump. You know, we may have. I don't 223 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 3: know if that's the case for sure, but there's a 224 00:14:56,920 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 3: famous old joke about somebody who falls off an e 225 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 3: story building and passes a window washer on the fourth 226 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:07,240 Speaker 3: floor and says, so far, so good. So it hasn't 227 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 3: even been a year yet, and you know, you've destroyed 228 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 3: the east wing of the White House. And I don't 229 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 3: want to You've triggered me now, and I don't really 230 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:21,560 Speaker 3: want to spend too much time talking about him. 231 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 1: I'm afraid you're going to have to send a little 232 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:24,360 Speaker 1: more time. 233 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 2: Now. One way in which we've seen reaction from world 234 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:32,840 Speaker 2: leaders is actually to not stand up to Trump to 235 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 2: try and make deals. There have been some leaders who 236 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 2: have stood up to Trump, and some of them are 237 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 2: in this continent. We've had President Lula from Brazil stand 238 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 2: up to Trump even though the tariffs have been going 239 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:48,120 Speaker 2: up and up. There's been President Petro from Columbia who 240 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 2: has stood up for the attacks that are happening in 241 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 2: the Caribbean on those boats. Even India has stood up 242 00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 2: to Trump to some extent when the tariffs were increased. 243 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 3: Oh okay, can I pause for a moment. So the 244 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 3: journalists have given me the clear impression and have reported 245 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 3: facts that clearly imply that what happened on those tariffs 246 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:14,840 Speaker 3: on India is that Trump got on this gig where 247 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 3: he was trying to make claim credit for stopping wars 248 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 3: all over the world. India Pakistan was the biggest example. 249 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 3: And the Deputy Prime Minister of Pakistan, having learned one 250 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 3: of the lessons that world leaders have learned that if 251 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:31,840 Speaker 3: you flatter the hell out of Trump, you're more likely 252 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 3: to get what you want, he nominated him for a 253 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 3: Nobel Peace Prize and so Trump called Mody and he 254 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:42,160 Speaker 3: wanted Mody to join Pakistan and nominating for the and 255 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 3: Modi from the reporting said, what the hell are you 256 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 3: talking about? I did that, You had nothing to do 257 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:49,320 Speaker 3: with that. The very next day, you put a fifty 258 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:56,320 Speaker 3: percent tariff on India. After decades of bipartisan efforts in 259 00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 3: the United States, the administrations of both parties trying to 260 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:04,600 Speaker 3: pull India more in the US sphere. The Indo Pacific 261 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 3: concept is part of that whole effort, and just to 262 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:12,840 Speaker 3: throw that out the window because of a personal aggrievement 263 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:15,679 Speaker 3: over he's not getting enough credit for this or that. 264 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:18,720 Speaker 3: That is a clear example of why the founders of 265 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 3: the US were so correct and saying no person should 266 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 3: have such unlimited power. There have to be checks and balances. 267 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 3: Of course, the Republican majority in the Congress has been 268 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 3: so cowardly. They're frightened as hell of Trump and he 269 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 3: says jump and they say yes or how high? And 270 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:39,679 Speaker 3: I think that that's changing, as I said earlier, and 271 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 3: I think we may soon face a new political reality 272 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 3: in the US. 273 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 2: And we are seeing that through a geopolitical lens. So 274 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:49,920 Speaker 2: all these three countries, Brazil, Columbia and India have now 275 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 2: done so and got closer to the China orbit. You know, 276 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:56,440 Speaker 2: India and China share a border. They've had tense relationships 277 00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:59,679 Speaker 2: and there's been a detont because of what's happening from 278 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:02,720 Speaker 2: the white hose China, as you know, and numbers you 279 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:05,960 Speaker 2: have cited from Bloomberg reporting, which is now, if you 280 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:09,199 Speaker 2: look at exports from fossil fuels in the US and 281 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:11,560 Speaker 2: they count them in billions of dollars, and then you 282 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:15,480 Speaker 2: take exports of clean energy technologies from China in billions 283 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:17,199 Speaker 2: of dollars, China is ahead. 284 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:21,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, China is exporting a higher value goods in the 285 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 3: green tech sector with a higher value then the US 286 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:28,680 Speaker 3: is exporting with all of the fossil fuel, all the LNG, 287 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 3: the coal, the oil, the gas, and clearly clean technology 288 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 3: is the future. It's there's really no argument, no reasonable 289 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 3: argument against that. So Trump is shooting the US in 290 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:47,320 Speaker 3: both feet, really hobbling the US ability to compete in 291 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:51,239 Speaker 3: the leading economic sector of the twenty first century. And 292 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:56,239 Speaker 3: it's really a tragedy. It can be reversed, but it 293 00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:57,679 Speaker 3: will take time to reverse it. 294 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 2: Join us after the break for more of my conversation 295 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:08,200 Speaker 2: with Al Gore, former Vice President of the United States, 296 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 2: And if you'd like more from bloombergreen at cop thirty. 297 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 2: Sign up to our newsletter For daily coverage on the ground, 298 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 2: sign up at bloomberg dot com Forward Slash Newsletters. How 299 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:33,640 Speaker 2: worried are you that now more and more countries are 300 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 2: going into the China orbit? I gave you three examples. 301 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 2: There are more examples I can pull off. Kennya, for example, 302 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 2: recently reoriented its dollar bond into a yuan bond. Why 303 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:46,160 Speaker 2: because it's got lower interest rates from China and anyway, 304 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:48,600 Speaker 2: it wants to import goods from China that are going 305 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:52,640 Speaker 2: to help it build clean energy. Sitting as Vice president 306 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:55,359 Speaker 2: two decades ago, China was seen as a scare for 307 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:58,439 Speaker 2: the Western order. Does that not worry you? 308 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:01,399 Speaker 3: Now? Yeah? I think I said does worry me? And 309 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 3: I do agree that one of the many consequences of 310 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 3: Trump's mismanagement of America's destiny is that it gives China 311 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:16,399 Speaker 3: advantages that it has not earned on its own. I 312 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 3: do think that what I said earlier applies, and that 313 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 3: is that over time, I think nations around the world 314 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:26,879 Speaker 3: are going to be reluctant to follow China. You use 315 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:30,119 Speaker 3: the example of Kenya. You know, there's a history there 316 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 3: of China acting like a loan shark. In Kenya and 317 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:38,159 Speaker 3: throughout many parts of Africa, there are these predatory and 318 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 3: abusive loan provisions where they you know, collect the collateral 319 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:50,119 Speaker 3: and end up owning the railroad and owning the port 320 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 3: and so forth. So there is there's building resistance. But 321 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:58,320 Speaker 3: that's a time when the US should take advantage of 322 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:04,120 Speaker 3: that rather than put p wishing nations toward China. 323 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:06,679 Speaker 2: Coming to US competitiveness. A lot of conversation has happened 324 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 2: this year on how much AI and data centers are 325 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:14,080 Speaker 2: consuming electricity, and how much more electricity the world is 326 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 2: going to have to produce, and how difficult it is 327 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 2: to be able to build any electricity supply in the US. 328 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:24,400 Speaker 2: Now we are talking about an increase of one percent 329 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:27,639 Speaker 2: in the past to two maybe three maybe four percent, 330 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:32,359 Speaker 2: which seems large. Now China or India are building electricity 331 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:39,200 Speaker 2: infrastructure at ten percent growth every year, when the White 332 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:42,359 Speaker 2: House is so keen on making sure no clean energy 333 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 2: technologies get a foothold in America. You know, Donald Trump, 334 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 2: as you said, is going to leave the White House 335 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,360 Speaker 2: at some point. What happens when a next president comes 336 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:54,120 Speaker 2: in and wants to get back into the electricity game. 337 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:57,200 Speaker 2: What does the lost years of Trump do to us 338 00:21:57,280 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 2: competitiveness on electricity? 339 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:02,120 Speaker 3: Well, first of all, there are a lot of things 340 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:04,160 Speaker 3: I want to say in response to that. And first 341 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 3: of all, I think that the energy to the electricity 342 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 3: demand growth associated with the generative AI data centers is 343 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:17,720 Speaker 3: caused for concern but not panic. But some people seem 344 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:20,199 Speaker 3: to be using it as the leading edge of a 345 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:21,960 Speaker 3: wedge to say, see, this is why we have to 346 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 3: stop worrying about climate, because we need all this energy 347 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 3: for generative AI and we can't get chat GPT ten 348 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 3: if we don't really bust all the emissions budgets. I 349 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:37,720 Speaker 3: think this story is still unfolding. There's a lot we 350 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:42,840 Speaker 3: have to yet to see on the generative AI story. 351 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 3: And many of the power users, the hyperscalers as they're called, 352 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:52,160 Speaker 3: are also consumer facing companies that actually do still care 353 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:57,240 Speaker 3: a lot about how their consumers view their approach to climate, 354 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 3: and many of them are now trying to in much 355 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 3: larger solar plus batteries facilities for power. Some of them 356 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:11,600 Speaker 3: are using some novel techniques that are going to try 357 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:12,960 Speaker 3: to avoid the emissions. 358 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 1: Not all. 359 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:16,879 Speaker 3: Unfortunately, there is some increase in emissions, for sure, but 360 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:19,440 Speaker 3: it's not a cause for panning. Let me give you 361 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:20,919 Speaker 3: an example. I know we're going to hope, we're going 362 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:23,439 Speaker 3: to talk about climate trace later, but some of our 363 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:25,920 Speaker 3: data at Climate Trade shows, for example, that you can 364 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 3: take all of the generative AI data centers and the 365 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:35,760 Speaker 3: total emissions are not bigger than those from uncovered landfills 366 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:39,280 Speaker 3: around the world. I mean, it's not a high tech 367 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:43,120 Speaker 3: challenge to cover a damn landfill. There are local materials, 368 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:47,359 Speaker 3: people are shovel ready, creates jobs. There are many other 369 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:54,480 Speaker 3: examples of how we can compensate for the increased emissions 370 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 3: from these AI data centers. Also, you know, the deep 371 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:03,439 Speaker 3: seek model in China looks like there's growing appeal to 372 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:07,360 Speaker 3: the open source models rather than what open AI and 373 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 3: Google and the others are offering in the US. So 374 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:12,440 Speaker 3: this story is still unfolding. 375 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:14,879 Speaker 2: It certainly is, and it's good to have numbers in 376 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:17,520 Speaker 2: front of us, because you talked a little bit about emissions. 377 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 2: But if you just take energy use between twenty five 378 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,919 Speaker 2: and twenty thirty five, if you look at where electricity 379 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 2: consumption is going to rise. If AI is one unit, 380 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:32,160 Speaker 2: air conditioning is twice as much, industry is four times 381 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:36,000 Speaker 2: as much. So we do have an energy equation where 382 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:38,359 Speaker 2: more and more of our lives are getting electrified. 383 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:41,280 Speaker 1: That's actually a good thing because it's a much more. 384 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 3: Efficient electrify everything, end quote. It has been one of 385 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:50,399 Speaker 3: the pillars of the climate response strategy. I totally agree. 386 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:53,200 Speaker 2: But it's also the competitiveness edge now you will have 387 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:56,159 Speaker 2: over other countries, and so coming back to the US, 388 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,680 Speaker 2: where you need to be able to compete on a 389 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:02,119 Speaker 2: gloup stage on electricity technologies. 390 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 1: But the US is right now not just not. 391 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:07,240 Speaker 2: Part of the game, it is actively pulling itself out 392 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,200 Speaker 2: of the race to try and electrify the economy. Yeah, 393 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 2: to build electricity industries. 394 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:16,680 Speaker 3: Well, the Trump administration may be doing that, but American 395 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:21,280 Speaker 3: business is not doing that. You know, the clean tech 396 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 3: spending has increased quite dramatically in the nine months since 397 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:27,879 Speaker 3: Trump has been in office. The first time he was president, 398 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:31,919 Speaker 3: he tried the same thing, and during those four years, 399 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:37,400 Speaker 3: solar doubled, EV's doubled, clean deck investment doubled, fossil went 400 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 3: down because of this big wheel turning. I also want 401 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:46,400 Speaker 3: to point out before we passed away from the AI discussion, 402 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 3: that it's very real that AI is going to provide 403 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:58,359 Speaker 3: some ways to reduce emissions that were not accessible and 404 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:02,359 Speaker 3: available to us in the past. Whether it's a bubble 405 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:04,680 Speaker 3: or not, I'm not qualified to say. I'm not a 406 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:08,960 Speaker 3: macroeconomic economist. I don't hold myself out as an expert 407 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:13,520 Speaker 3: in macro but there is a discussion about a bubble. 408 00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,119 Speaker 3: I'm not sure. I don't think maybe it's not. And 409 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 3: of course there's history that some bubbles end up being 410 00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 3: useful to you know, after the first users pass away, 411 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:29,120 Speaker 3: then the next find them valuable. And I think that 412 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 3: the US is hurting itself tremendously, but I think that 413 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:38,520 Speaker 3: the momentum in the private sector is still going to 414 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:40,920 Speaker 3: keep the US in that game very much. 415 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:44,880 Speaker 2: Outside the US, we're already seeing lots of right wing 416 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:49,080 Speaker 2: parties taking either the stunts that Donald Trump ticks or 417 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:51,879 Speaker 2: start to break down on climate consensus. So I live 418 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:52,400 Speaker 2: in the UK. 419 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:55,200 Speaker 1: The UK, as you know, has been a climate leader. 420 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:59,760 Speaker 2: It had a cross party support for climate consensus that's 421 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:03,400 Speaker 2: not now starting to break down. The opposition party Conservatives 422 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 2: want to get rid of the Climate Change Act, for example, 423 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,439 Speaker 2: The same thing is happening in Australia right now. Just 424 00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:12,280 Speaker 2: this week, we've been told that the Opposition Party, if 425 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:16,639 Speaker 2: it comes to power, they could reverse the climate goals 426 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 2: that Australia has set. And we're seeing this happen in 427 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:24,320 Speaker 2: Europe in many other parts. One thing that the climate 428 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 2: community has done over the past ten years, out of necessity, 429 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:31,520 Speaker 2: is to try to specialize in the many, many, many 430 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 2: sectors that we need to recognize, to put rules, to 431 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 2: put targets, to try and figure out the technological solutions, 432 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:41,800 Speaker 2: the policy solutions. But in the process there has been 433 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,920 Speaker 2: a gap. How do you get the public to know 434 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:49,080 Speaker 2: what you're doing is actually in their benefit? And right 435 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:51,040 Speaker 2: now they are not seeing it, and that's why they 436 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:54,920 Speaker 2: are willing to vote for parties that would bring down 437 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:58,679 Speaker 2: climate policies, even if that harms them. So what is 438 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:01,240 Speaker 2: a new pact? How do you take a new pact 439 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 2: with the public to see that climate action is in 440 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:05,720 Speaker 2: their benefit. 441 00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:08,919 Speaker 3: Well, first of all, if I may quote Abraham Lincoln, 442 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:13,000 Speaker 3: he said, public sentiment is everything. With public sentiment, everything 443 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:19,159 Speaker 3: is possible. Without it, nothing is possible. Having a clear 444 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:24,480 Speaker 3: process for reasoning together collectively and lifting up what is 445 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:27,200 Speaker 3: in the best interests of the public is the poly 446 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:31,720 Speaker 3: solution for this poly crisis. We really have to fight 447 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:36,359 Speaker 3: back against this. There's an elite project, for example, to 448 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 3: buy up mainstream media outlets. The autocrats and the brologarchs 449 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:46,720 Speaker 3: and the petro states are trying to buy up access 450 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:51,680 Speaker 3: to communications. We have to fight against that. And the 451 00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:56,680 Speaker 3: role of these predatory and abuse of algorithms that direct 452 00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 3: attention flows on the Internet really has to be addressed. 453 00:28:59,920 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 3: Now is beginning to be addressed. But these algorithms that 454 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:07,200 Speaker 3: create the rabbit holes that people are sucked down into 455 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:12,240 Speaker 3: that creating a social crisis. They're particularly among young men 456 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 3: and young women around the world. And now the layered 457 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:21,240 Speaker 3: on top of it, these AI companions that sometimes aid 458 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:24,920 Speaker 3: in the bit suicidal tendencies, and there are many other 459 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:29,480 Speaker 3: abuses they pull people down these rabbit holes. You know 460 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 3: what's at the bottom of the rabbit hole, That's where 461 00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:34,240 Speaker 3: the echo chamber is. And if you spend too much 462 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:36,640 Speaker 3: time in the echo chamber, you've become vulnerable to a 463 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 3: new kind of AI artificial insanity. And that's where climate 464 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:46,280 Speaker 3: denial and the flat Earth society and QAnon and all 465 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 3: this wacky stuff you attributed the popularity of some of 466 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:58,120 Speaker 3: these right of center populist movements to failures in implementation 467 00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:02,600 Speaker 3: of climate solutions. I think that's partly true, in my opinion. 468 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:06,120 Speaker 3: I think there's a lot else that needs to be 469 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:11,000 Speaker 3: put into that equation. We had the pandemic, we had 470 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:17,160 Speaker 3: the sadistic Russian invasion of Ukraine which completely upended a 471 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:22,680 Speaker 3: lot of the energy supply chains. We've had hyper globalization 472 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:26,720 Speaker 3: since China joined the WTO at the beginning of this millennium, 473 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:30,120 Speaker 3: with the centrifugal redistribution of high wage jobs to low 474 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:35,160 Speaker 3: wage venues, and so in the wealthier countries, when publics 475 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:36,800 Speaker 3: are saying, you know, we need to give more foreign 476 00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 3: aid to these countries where a lot of manufacturing jobs 477 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:45,160 Speaker 3: have just been sent it's not sustainable politically. So there 478 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 3: are many factors involved. As our case is new, we 479 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:52,360 Speaker 3: must think anew but one of our priorities has to 480 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,280 Speaker 3: be to listen to what President Lula is saying about 481 00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:58,720 Speaker 3: this COP. This must be the truth COP, and I 482 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,560 Speaker 3: think in COPS going forward, we have to pay careful 483 00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:07,600 Speaker 3: attention to this asymmetry of information because it deeply affects 484 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:11,560 Speaker 3: the formation of public sentiment in favor of what we 485 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:15,080 Speaker 3: have to do now. I do think that there were 486 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 3: specific failures in the US in the too slow implementation 487 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:24,720 Speaker 3: of the IRA, the big climate law that passed early 488 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:29,280 Speaker 3: in Biden's term, and people didn't see the installation, and 489 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:33,240 Speaker 3: by the time it was beginning then you know, there 490 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 3: was no way to use the examples that people had 491 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:39,560 Speaker 3: hoped would be there. So that is definitely a part 492 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:42,400 Speaker 3: of the problem. And one other things. The whole cop 493 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:48,160 Speaker 3: process in a way is shifting toward implementation, and so 494 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:51,200 Speaker 3: I think that we really do need to focus on 495 00:31:51,480 --> 00:32:00,520 Speaker 3: implementing the right policies in a very practical, effective way. 496 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:04,720 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Zero. 497 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 2: The second part of my interview with Al Gore will 498 00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,120 Speaker 2: come out on Thursday this week, so subscribe to zero 499 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:13,080 Speaker 2: to get it straight in your podcast feed. If you 500 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 2: liked this episode, please take a moment to rate and 501 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:18,360 Speaker 2: review the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. This episode 502 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:20,520 Speaker 2: was produced by Oscar Boyd with the help from the 503 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:24,280 Speaker 2: team at ted coundown House. Our theme music is composed 504 00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:28,280 Speaker 2: by Wonderly Special Thanks to Soamersati Moses Andam, Laura Milan 505 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:30,000 Speaker 2: and Sharon chen I. 506 00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:32,000 Speaker 1: Am Akshatrati back soon