WEBVTT - How FOIA Works 0:00:01.120 --> 0:00:04.600 Welcome to Stuff you Should Know from how Stuff Works 0:00:04.600 --> 0:00:13.720 dot Com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. 0:00:13.760 --> 0:00:16.680 There's Charles W. Chuck Bryant. We've got guest producer Matt 0:00:16.760 --> 0:00:21.400 over here that makes this Stuff you Should Know Sunshine Edition. 0:00:22.239 --> 0:00:26.520 The storms are gone. Well. Plus they say sunshine is 0:00:26.560 --> 0:00:30.000 the greatest disaffectmant that really Yeah, you shine a light 0:00:30.240 --> 0:00:34.400 in the dark corners and it reveals truth, gotcha. Plus 0:00:34.520 --> 0:00:38.159 you know people are less shady in the sunlight. So 0:00:38.240 --> 0:00:41.440 this is part episode two of our recording session of 0:00:42.440 --> 0:00:47.720 uh Freshly being without Power Irma going through Atlanta dead cats. 0:00:48.520 --> 0:00:52.680 All right, and I'm going on vacation. Oh good, tomorrow good. 0:00:53.240 --> 0:00:56.200 So if anyone wants to meet me at the Isle 0:00:56.200 --> 0:01:00.760 of Palm, South Carolina, build a time machine, right, go 0:01:00.840 --> 0:01:04.120 back a few weeks and you'll find me drinking Gin 0:01:04.160 --> 0:01:08.759 and Tonics on the beach. Nice songs, child, Oh really, Wow, 0:01:08.840 --> 0:01:15.240 you're vacationing vacation, not frustratingly running around trying to get 0:01:15.280 --> 0:01:19.000 sand out of sunscreen off a small child. That's a 0:01:19.040 --> 0:01:22.960 losing proposition. Yeah, man, can't wait. Good, We'll enjoy yourself. 0:01:23.080 --> 0:01:25.480 We were originally going to Folly Beach, but it was damaged. 0:01:26.120 --> 0:01:29.760 The house was, but this one was not, so they 0:01:29.800 --> 0:01:32.360 moved us. I've never been to island Palm is it 0:01:32.360 --> 0:01:36.360 shaped like a palm like in Dubai. No, it's just 0:01:36.440 --> 0:01:40.119 one of Charleston's. Uh. I don't know what they call him, 0:01:40.160 --> 0:01:43.399 low country border islands. Maybe that's what they call him. 0:01:43.400 --> 0:01:47.720 Now right next to Sullivan's Island and James Island and 0:01:47.720 --> 0:01:50.640 Folly Beach are all kind of right there, great area. 0:01:50.920 --> 0:01:54.640 Charleston's amazing. Yeah, we're gonna go in for dinner and 0:01:54.680 --> 0:01:56.920 stuff and trying to throw a little money at their economy. 0:01:56.960 --> 0:01:59.760 But I think they had some really bad flooding. So 0:02:00.440 --> 0:02:02.840 everyone all right there. I thinks like three or six 0:02:02.880 --> 0:02:07.720 ft storm surge that was there on the outskirts. They 0:02:07.720 --> 0:02:09.880 were not even in the past in the end. Not 0:02:09.960 --> 0:02:13.120 good stuff, not good. Well, I'm glad Charleston made it, 0:02:13.160 --> 0:02:15.600 and I'm glad you're going to Charleston. Man, I can't wait. 0:02:15.639 --> 0:02:19.560 I'm gonna eat so much seafood. Yeah, alright, so Chuck, 0:02:19.800 --> 0:02:24.560 as I was saying, sunshine is the greatest disinfectant. Let's hope. Um, 0:02:24.600 --> 0:02:28.960 there's actually something called Sunshine Week. Have you heard about that. No, 0:02:29.600 --> 0:02:33.840 it's a week that celebrates openness in government. It's as 0:02:33.919 --> 0:02:36.960 simple as that. It's the Reporter's Committee for Freedom of 0:02:36.960 --> 0:02:40.640 the Press. It's their thing, and they're trying to shine 0:02:40.639 --> 0:02:44.040 a light on the idea of shining a light on government, right, 0:02:44.120 --> 0:02:48.600 and that existed until this year. It's still right. No. Actually, 0:02:48.600 --> 0:02:51.800 it's funny like the last guy gets a lot of 0:02:52.880 --> 0:02:57.120 credit and praise for being open, but in retrospect, supposedly 0:02:57.160 --> 0:03:00.840 it was very much a lot of smoking mirrors. Yeah, yeah, 0:03:00.880 --> 0:03:04.200 there was. It was not a very open administration either. Well, 0:03:04.200 --> 0:03:08.639 you know what they say, politics is politics? Who says that? 0:03:08.880 --> 0:03:13.120 Is that? I love palm saying yeah the politics? Politics? 0:03:13.480 --> 0:03:18.160 Have another crawfish past the frog wrest? Is there a 0:03:18.200 --> 0:03:23.079 frog in that? No, that's just like a low country boil. Yeah, 0:03:23.080 --> 0:03:26.480 I love low country boil. I'm gonna make that. I 0:03:26.520 --> 0:03:28.440 think you should my own self. I think you should 0:03:28.440 --> 0:03:31.959 bring something back here for me. Yeah, I don't know 0:03:32.000 --> 0:03:35.880 if I guess it would keep. It depends, you know. 0:03:35.960 --> 0:03:37.680 I want to be like, here's a week old frog 0:03:37.720 --> 0:03:42.520 morps to I'd probably still eat it. I know you would. So. Um, 0:03:42.680 --> 0:03:47.400 the idea of of government giving up its secrets. Right, 0:03:47.920 --> 0:03:52.400 it's actually fairly new here in the States. Um, there's 0:03:52.520 --> 0:03:56.200 a a time not too long ago where if you 0:03:56.440 --> 0:04:01.160 wanted classified information or any information for um, the federal government, 0:04:02.160 --> 0:04:05.839 they you had really no way to ask for it. 0:04:06.480 --> 0:04:08.560 And even if you could figure out who to ask 0:04:08.960 --> 0:04:12.240 for it from, they would say no. And then you 0:04:12.280 --> 0:04:15.720 would you'd say, well, what next, nothing next, man, go 0:04:15.840 --> 0:04:19.240 back to sleep. Citizen, that was your role to just 0:04:19.279 --> 0:04:24.000 shut up and stop asking questions. And thankfully for those 0:04:24.120 --> 0:04:27.400 of us who believe that government should be way more 0:04:27.480 --> 0:04:30.640 transparent than it is. Uh, there was a guy named 0:04:30.880 --> 0:04:35.280 Representative John Moss from California. He was a congressman back 0:04:35.320 --> 0:04:41.120 in the sixties, and he became concerned that, um, not Congress, 0:04:41.160 --> 0:04:44.919 but the federal government, the executive branch, was getting a 0:04:44.960 --> 0:04:50.880 little too opaque. And specifically, there was a report that 0:04:50.920 --> 0:04:54.320 he asked for that concerned, UM, the firing of some 0:04:54.440 --> 0:05:00.160 civil servants, ostensibly because their loyalty to the administration had 0:05:00.200 --> 0:05:03.719 been questioned, and so they got fired, and he wanted 0:05:03.760 --> 0:05:07.000 to look into it, and the federal agency he requested 0:05:07.000 --> 0:05:10.599 the documents from said no. And he was a congressman, 0:05:10.680 --> 0:05:15.320 yes he was, So he said, I'll be back, yeah, 0:05:15.440 --> 0:05:19.600 Arnold style. And then this was but thirteen or so 0:05:20.080 --> 0:05:25.520 years after UM, the American Society of Newspaper Editors published 0:05:25.520 --> 0:05:30.240 a study about secrecy in the government and basically said 0:05:30.279 --> 0:05:34.920 what you said, which is citizens have no access to records, 0:05:35.240 --> 0:05:39.400 no recourse if they're denied records. That was the nine three. 0:05:39.480 --> 0:05:42.440 Kind of surprising to me. It was that early that 0:05:42.520 --> 0:05:45.320 they were kind of ringing the bell for this. But 0:05:45.400 --> 0:05:49.480 I think the Cold War, like almost immediately the development 0:05:49.480 --> 0:05:55.520 of the bomb and the Cold War really drove this, 0:05:55.520 --> 0:05:59.919 this desire to keep everything secret, and the federal government, 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:04.520 the executive branch, keeps everything secret by classifying everything. There's 0:06:04.560 --> 0:06:08.480 this kind of mentality that is classify everything when in doubt, 0:06:08.880 --> 0:06:13.440 classify it because not only does it it it obscures 0:06:13.480 --> 0:06:16.359 what you're doing from say, like your enemy, it also 0:06:16.440 --> 0:06:19.280 obscures what you're doing from your citizen right, so you 0:06:19.320 --> 0:06:21.800 can't be questioned, you can't be criticized, you can't be 0:06:21.839 --> 0:06:25.320 exposed as incompetent. If no one knows what you're doing, 0:06:25.720 --> 0:06:30.000 they can't see that if you're doing it poorly, and 0:06:30.080 --> 0:06:32.279 that they could actually do it better, or know somebody 0:06:32.279 --> 0:06:34.080 who could do it better, or it could elect somebody 0:06:34.120 --> 0:06:37.279 who could do it better. And as the way that 0:06:37.320 --> 0:06:39.720 you do that is to just classify everything, keep it 0:06:39.800 --> 0:06:42.520 a secret. Yeah. I've always had the feeling that if 0:06:42.520 --> 0:06:46.080 the federal government in the United States had its drugs, 0:06:47.080 --> 0:06:51.159 they would operate in complete isolated secrecy. Yeah. Well they're 0:06:51.200 --> 0:06:57.160 trying like you wouldn't even have press conferences, right, Like 0:06:57.200 --> 0:06:59.919 they would just shut it down and say don't don't you. 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:02.839 Let's worry about anything we have it coverage. Just go 0:07:02.920 --> 0:07:07.880 about your day, go about your business. Uh So Moss 0:07:07.920 --> 0:07:13.600 went to uh fellow Democratic President Phil Democrat President Lyndon 0:07:13.680 --> 0:07:17.160 Johnson and said, you know, I think we uh should 0:07:17.720 --> 0:07:20.000 change the way we're doing things here, and Johnson said, 0:07:20.080 --> 0:07:23.280 I don't know about that. That's pretty good, John Johnson. 0:07:23.320 --> 0:07:29.120 We should. He's very interesting, Uh, I think, conflicted dude. 0:07:29.840 --> 0:07:31.880 We should do a show on him at some point, 0:07:32.760 --> 0:07:37.880 very ambitious domestic policies like he wanted to be FDR 0:07:38.440 --> 0:07:41.560 like the Second Coming, didn't know a lot about foreign policy. 0:07:42.360 --> 0:07:47.720 Oh that's not good. No, he's a very interesting dude. Anyway, 0:07:47.840 --> 0:07:50.120 He's a domestic He was a domestic guy. Had I 0:07:50.160 --> 0:07:54.240 never realized that he didn't know about was not his specialty. 0:07:55.920 --> 0:07:57.920 I think he wanted to do great things for this country, 0:07:58.560 --> 0:08:01.760 um in his heart right, but uh, I don't know. 0:08:01.760 --> 0:08:04.800 It's interesting. I think ever since I saw the Cranston 0:08:04.880 --> 0:08:08.120 play in New York. What's it called all the Way? 0:08:08.240 --> 0:08:10.640 I think, and they made it too. I didn't see 0:08:10.640 --> 0:08:12.720 the movie version, but I saw the play all the Way. 0:08:12.800 --> 0:08:15.120 That's what's called I think. So I think that's like 0:08:15.160 --> 0:08:20.280 a tawdry John Ritter film or something like that. That's 0:08:20.360 --> 0:08:25.880 let's go all the way? Okay, uh oh man, I 0:08:25.920 --> 0:08:29.200 missed John Ritter, sure he was the best. Uh So anyway, 0:08:29.280 --> 0:08:32.760 Johnson said, I don't know about that. All the all 0:08:32.800 --> 0:08:35.920 the federal departments and agency said, I definitely don't know 0:08:35.960 --> 0:08:39.600 about that. Bad idea, but it was the bell had 0:08:39.600 --> 0:08:44.320 been wrong in the House. And this is something that 0:08:44.679 --> 0:08:48.000 is kind of fun to look back on when these days, 0:08:49.320 --> 0:08:51.280 how things are, how they are, how divisive they are. 0:08:51.679 --> 0:08:53.480 Back in the House about a three hundred and seven 0:08:53.520 --> 0:08:57.000 to zero to pass the Moss Freedom of Information Act, 0:08:57.000 --> 0:09:00.600 the fo I A and UH John and signed it, 0:09:00.720 --> 0:09:03.719 and uh didn't have a big press conference when he 0:09:03.760 --> 0:09:06.679 signed it, like they do a lot of big laws 0:09:06.679 --> 0:09:10.800 and bills. He signed it in secrecy. Yeah, he did, like, oh, 0:09:10.880 --> 0:09:12.560 we'll sign it, but maybe people don't know about it. 0:09:12.640 --> 0:09:14.400 I won't go we don't have to we have to 0:09:14.440 --> 0:09:16.760 go around shooting our mouths off about it. But he 0:09:16.800 --> 0:09:18.160 did say, no one should be able to pull the 0:09:18.160 --> 0:09:22.280 curtains of secrecy around decisions which can be revealed without 0:09:22.280 --> 0:09:25.240 injury to the public interest. I signed this measure with 0:09:25.280 --> 0:09:27.640 a deep sense of pride that the United States is 0:09:27.679 --> 0:09:32.000 an open society. Uh, but no one heard that, right, 0:09:33.200 --> 0:09:36.079 the doors are shut, correct? So yeah, he signed it 0:09:36.080 --> 0:09:39.200 in secrecy, which is a little weird, and also opened 0:09:39.240 --> 0:09:42.600 the door for like, you know that that second part 0:09:42.600 --> 0:09:46.080 of the first sentences decisions which can be revealed without 0:09:46.080 --> 0:09:49.400 injury to the public interest, there's a big caveat attached 0:09:49.480 --> 0:09:53.360 to that openness, right exactly. Don't forget we have ways 0:09:53.360 --> 0:09:56.000 around this. Yeah. Um, And you said that it was 0:09:56.080 --> 0:10:00.559 hardening to hear that Congress unanimously passed the four Act, right, 0:10:00.960 --> 0:10:03.600 a little bit, right, This is what it is. This 0:10:03.640 --> 0:10:06.599 is not the only time Congress has come together unanimously 0:10:07.080 --> 0:10:10.040 in defense of FOIA. In two thousand four, team, which 0:10:10.040 --> 0:10:14.920 we'll talk about later, they did with John Bayner as 0:10:15.000 --> 0:10:18.800 the um at the helm of the House in Obama 0:10:18.880 --> 0:10:22.880 in the White House, and that the Congress divided as 0:10:22.920 --> 0:10:26.319 much as it's ever been. The House came together unanimously 0:10:26.960 --> 0:10:30.920 in in for this Foya Act or Amendment A. There 0:10:31.000 --> 0:10:34.760 was also a time when Gerald Ford was president where 0:10:34.840 --> 0:10:38.160 Congress overrode a veto of his as far as FOYA. 0:10:38.240 --> 0:10:41.400 So FOIA is this one thing because for for those 0:10:41.440 --> 0:10:46.000 of you who don't know, it only pertains to documents 0:10:46.080 --> 0:10:50.440 in the control of the executive branch of the federal government, 0:10:51.320 --> 0:10:53.720 just the executive branch, just the White House. So any 0:10:53.760 --> 0:10:59.360 secrets the president's administration is keeping, that's what it's pertaining to. Okay. 0:10:59.440 --> 0:11:03.080 So Congress very frequently comes together and it's like, no, 0:11:03.360 --> 0:11:07.480 we want you to share this information with everybody, including us, 0:11:08.320 --> 0:11:10.640 and they look like the good guys too for coming 0:11:10.640 --> 0:11:13.920 to the aid for open and honest and transparent government. 0:11:14.120 --> 0:11:16.800 And just to clarify, Chuck, like, it's not just like 0:11:16.840 --> 0:11:21.320 the White House. There's tons of agencies, federal agencies that 0:11:21.360 --> 0:11:24.920 fall under the executive branch, including like the FBI or 0:11:24.960 --> 0:11:29.280 the CDC or the UM. There just basically any agency, 0:11:29.480 --> 0:11:33.240 if any federal agencies probably under the purview of the 0:11:32.640 --> 0:11:36.640 the executive branch, so therefore FOYA would apply to it 0:11:36.679 --> 0:11:40.120 as well. That's very nice to point that out, because 0:11:40.160 --> 0:11:46.800 you confused even me off. Sorry about that. Uh So this, uh, 0:11:46.840 --> 0:11:49.199 I think this this bears reading this quote. There's a 0:11:49.240 --> 0:11:54.679 journalist named John Wiener or Winer who he um tried 0:11:54.720 --> 0:11:58.720 for fourteen years to get John Lennon's FBI files through 0:11:58.880 --> 0:12:04.559 f o i A quests, and he very succinctly wrote this, 0:12:04.840 --> 0:12:06.680 and it kind of sums it up to me. The 0:12:06.679 --> 0:12:10.400 basic issue was that government officials everywhere like secrecy by 0:12:10.480 --> 0:12:12.960 keeping the public from learning what they have done, they 0:12:12.960 --> 0:12:16.319 hope to avoid criticism, hinder the opposition, and maintain power 0:12:16.360 --> 0:12:20.440 over citizens. And they're elected representatives. Classified files and official 0:12:20.480 --> 0:12:23.840 secrets lie at the heart of the modern government bureaucracy. 0:12:23.960 --> 0:12:26.800 Of such a hard time with that word. It's almost impossible, 0:12:26.920 --> 0:12:30.400 is spell to I don't even try, uh and permit 0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:34.520 the under undemocratic use of power to go unrecognized and 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:37.480 unchallenged by citizens. And he was just trying to get 0:12:37.520 --> 0:12:41.240 John Lennon's files. That's how riled the peacock. You know, 0:12:41.480 --> 0:12:43.360 you don't want to rale up a journalists, but that's 0:12:43.360 --> 0:12:46.520 who this pertains to for the most part, I should 0:12:46.559 --> 0:12:48.960 say not entirely, but yeah, for the most part is 0:12:48.960 --> 0:12:52.040 accurate journalists. Journalists are the ones who are supposed to 0:12:52.080 --> 0:12:55.560 be reporting on the goings on of the government, especially 0:12:55.600 --> 0:13:00.480 when it comes to exposing wrongdoing, corruption, waste, all this off. 0:13:00.520 --> 0:13:03.080 That's one of the main roles of the media, right yea, 0:13:03.160 --> 0:13:06.679 journalists and more and more now activists, thankfully, citizen activists right. 0:13:06.720 --> 0:13:09.000 And one of the reasons why citizen activists have gotten 0:13:09.000 --> 0:13:13.280 in on this is because the journalists aren't doing it enough. Yeah. Um, 0:13:13.320 --> 0:13:18.240 but the early on the journalists were largely in support 0:13:18.360 --> 0:13:21.719 of FOYA. The Congress was like, sure, why not, it 0:13:21.720 --> 0:13:24.040 will probably make the president who we don't like, look bad. 0:13:24.760 --> 0:13:30.240 And um. Now we have as of the sixty six Act, 0:13:30.559 --> 0:13:36.080 the Freedom of Information Act, right yeah, which officially, uh, 0:13:36.320 --> 0:13:38.560 I mean, people know what this is. This is the 0:13:38.559 --> 0:13:42.200 ability of a of a citizen of the world. Very 0:13:42.240 --> 0:13:44.240 important there. You don't have to just be an American 0:13:44.240 --> 0:13:48.760 citizen to request records of an executive branch like you said, 0:13:48.800 --> 0:13:52.880 government agency. Uh. And along with that Act originally nineteen 0:13:52.960 --> 0:13:55.880 sixty six said these are available to the public with 0:13:56.000 --> 0:14:00.400 nine exemptions, which will go over later. Um that protect 0:14:00.480 --> 0:14:04.440 the agency under certain circumstances. And if you were denied, 0:14:04.480 --> 0:14:07.120 there is also now a process in place to appeal 0:14:07.160 --> 0:14:10.319 that denied right. Very important and so when LBJ signed 0:14:10.360 --> 0:14:13.400 it into law, it was basically like, yeah, I guess 0:14:13.440 --> 0:14:15.200 just go along with it, but if you don't feel 0:14:15.240 --> 0:14:18.319 like it, you don't have to write right. Um. That's 0:14:18.360 --> 0:14:21.040 kind of went for a while, Yeah until Watergate. The 0:14:21.080 --> 0:14:25.880 Watergate scandal really change people's relationship with government big time. 0:14:26.040 --> 0:14:28.800 That changed government's relationship to government. Yeah. And one of 0:14:28.800 --> 0:14:30.920 the things that happened was there was an update to 0:14:31.080 --> 0:14:35.200 FOYA and a strengthening of FOYA UM so that there 0:14:35.200 --> 0:14:38.480 were like greater sanctions if you didn't follow through on 0:14:38.480 --> 0:14:43.760 on supplying the requested information. It was harder to just 0:14:43.800 --> 0:14:46.640 say no to deny it. Yeah, they had a specific 0:14:46.680 --> 0:14:49.280 time frame finally, like you couldn't just say yeah, we'll 0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:53.480 get to it, right. So, Uh, Congress puts uh this 0:14:53.800 --> 0:14:57.800 FOI amendments or updates on Gerald Ford's desk to sign, 0:14:58.600 --> 0:15:01.520 and uh, He's like now, well he looked around the 0:15:01.600 --> 0:15:04.000 room and said what should I do? Right? And the 0:15:04.120 --> 0:15:06.680 two people that piped up where Donald ROMs felt his 0:15:06.800 --> 0:15:10.920 chief of staff and Antonin Scalia, who was the chief 0:15:11.000 --> 0:15:14.720 legal counsel for the Justice Department, and they both said, 0:15:15.120 --> 0:15:17.760 don't sign it. Yeah. And apparently at least this article 0:15:17.800 --> 0:15:21.600 says that Rumsfeld early on was a supporter of FOI right, 0:15:21.640 --> 0:15:27.200 I think in the very easily manipulated version. Yeah. But 0:15:27.320 --> 0:15:31.520 when it when it came time to right, he said no, 0:15:31.800 --> 0:15:36.640 don't And so Ford argued that it was unconstitutional, and 0:15:36.680 --> 0:15:40.120 Congress said, you're wrong, and we're overriding your v two. 0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:45.560 That does not happened. Yeah, you say too too, that 0:15:45.760 --> 0:15:48.520 doesn't happen very often that a veto is overridden. I 0:15:48.600 --> 0:15:52.320 don't have ever done one on vitos should because I 0:15:52.360 --> 0:15:54.920 have no idea how often it happens. But I guarantee 0:15:54.920 --> 0:15:58.520 you it's not often. All right, So let's take a break. Um, 0:15:59.000 --> 0:16:01.640 we're just getting heat it up here on this one. Uh. 0:16:01.720 --> 0:16:04.160 And as you'll see in the coming segments for your 0:16:04.320 --> 0:16:07.120 changes gets more teeth and less teeth over the years, 0:16:07.120 --> 0:16:09.440 depending on whose office. And we'll be right back with 0:16:09.600 --> 0:16:37.040 Ronald Reagan. All right, Ronnie, he's here. That's so, like 0:16:37.120 --> 0:16:41.760 I promised, over the years, Foia has um had more 0:16:41.760 --> 0:16:46.080 teeth and less teeth depending on who is running the show. Um, 0:16:46.120 --> 0:16:48.760 probably not so. Surprisingly, when Ronald Reagan got into office 0:16:48.800 --> 0:16:53.960 in two or in nineteen two, he created he made 0:16:54.000 --> 0:16:57.160 it much tougher to uh, to get information, made it 0:16:57.200 --> 0:17:02.240 easier for agencies to withhold stuff. Um, Bill Clinton comes along, 0:17:02.880 --> 0:17:05.159 relaxes things, right, it kind of goes like that in 0:17:05.200 --> 0:17:08.520 our country. Well, Reagan also one of his things was, um, 0:17:08.640 --> 0:17:14.760 he definitely helps spearhead that classify everything mentality under his administration, Yeah, 0:17:14.840 --> 0:17:19.840 he said print, he said, manufacturer as many classified rubber 0:17:19.880 --> 0:17:23.199 stamps as you can. Every office needs about a hundred 0:17:23.200 --> 0:17:26.080 of them. And I think, especially during the Cold War, 0:17:26.359 --> 0:17:30.160 the Soviets served as a real boogeyman for keeping citizens 0:17:30.680 --> 0:17:33.560 in the dark. We don't want the Rooskies to find out. 0:17:33.600 --> 0:17:36.399 So no, yeah, we we don't trust you with this 0:17:36.480 --> 0:17:38.920 because you might hand it over to the Rooskies. Yeah, 0:17:39.160 --> 0:17:41.760 that was what they say. And they said Rooskys too, 0:17:42.560 --> 0:17:45.399 they did so. Like I said, Clinton comes wrong along. 0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:48.800 And there were a few, um, a few big events 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:51.119 in his administration. But hold and think about it. When 0:17:51.200 --> 0:17:54.920 Clinton comes along, no more uss are well true, Yeah, 0:17:55.040 --> 0:18:01.800 no more boogeyman. Right, good times, man, let's part. Uh 0:18:02.000 --> 0:18:04.119 did you like? Yeah, that was good. It was not 0:18:05.040 --> 0:18:08.840 I think together we do the perfect book. Glinton um 0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:11.359 he during an administration had a bunch of big um 0:18:12.200 --> 0:18:15.760 but had a big impact on FOYA. We're calling it 0:18:15.800 --> 0:18:18.840 for you, right, Yeah, Freedom of Information Act. It's a 0:18:18.880 --> 0:18:22.160 perfect acronym because it takes all words into account for you. Yeah, 0:18:22.160 --> 0:18:25.239 and it's not fake. No, one just like cooked up 0:18:25.280 --> 0:18:26.600 some weird word to throw in there to make it 0:18:26.640 --> 0:18:32.400 a word. So the release an archiving of Cold War 0:18:32.560 --> 0:18:36.119 previously classified Cold War documents was a big one. And 0:18:36.160 --> 0:18:41.160 then a really big see change is when Clinton said, 0:18:41.800 --> 0:18:45.679 you know, get with it and digitize all this stuff, 0:18:46.160 --> 0:18:49.000 like this is the future. We don't need everything on paper. 0:18:49.040 --> 0:18:53.840 Documents make it easier, uh to file and store the stuff. 0:18:53.840 --> 0:18:57.320 He and make it easier to distribute this stuff under 0:18:57.359 --> 0:19:01.879 FOY And it was and also uh they extended that timeline. 0:19:02.000 --> 0:19:04.240 I don't think we initially said it was ten days. Yeah, 0:19:04.280 --> 0:19:06.640 you had ten days to respond to a fourier request 0:19:06.760 --> 0:19:13.600 as a forficer um and then that was extended to 0:19:13.640 --> 0:19:16.840 twenty days. Although it says in here that that wasn't 0:19:16.880 --> 0:19:18.480 so much of a big deal. Just gave him a 0:19:18.480 --> 0:19:22.320 little more time. Basically no, because an agency that's not 0:19:22.760 --> 0:19:27.399 frequently contacted for FOY information and is not running a backlog, 0:19:27.640 --> 0:19:29.280 it is probably going to do it in about ten 0:19:29.359 --> 0:19:33.119 days anyway, right, An agency that is running a backlog 0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:35.680 is still not going to get in touch with you 0:19:35.840 --> 0:19:38.160 within ten days or twenty days. So it really had 0:19:38.200 --> 0:19:41.119 no effect, but it is on the book still to 0:19:41.200 --> 0:19:43.960 this day. They have twenty days to respond to you 0:19:44.280 --> 0:19:49.120 before you can appeal their lack of response. So UM 0:19:49.200 --> 0:19:52.399 George Bush H George W. Bush comes along, of course, 0:19:52.560 --> 0:19:56.679 and UH titans restrictions again. After September eleven. That was 0:19:56.800 --> 0:20:00.960 the perfect time to tighten the belt on FOY UH 0:20:01.000 --> 0:20:05.160 again because the boogeyman is back USA Patriot Act. So 0:20:06.040 --> 0:20:09.200 after September eleven, UM he ordered or you know, the 0:20:09.240 --> 0:20:14.000 administration ordered thousands of documents and data removed from websites 0:20:14.040 --> 0:20:18.919 agency websites, things like airport UH safety data, things like 0:20:19.000 --> 0:20:22.359 pipeline maps, environmental data. I gotta tell you I don't 0:20:22.480 --> 0:20:26.840 disagree with all of that. This is a double edged sword, 0:20:26.960 --> 0:20:30.080 you know, this, this this topic itself is to unpack 0:20:30.160 --> 0:20:33.240 this thing fully Like it's hard to make an argument 0:20:33.240 --> 0:20:36.680 for full transparency or full secrecy. Sure, Yeah, I don't 0:20:36.720 --> 0:20:39.359 think I would argue for full transparency. I think just 0:20:39.520 --> 0:20:43.240 by definition we would have to get so far away 0:20:43.320 --> 0:20:48.040 from being like the world's police and doving like military everywhere, 0:20:48.359 --> 0:20:52.280 and like being interventionist and adventuroust and all just basically 0:20:52.280 --> 0:20:55.919 completely changed the complexion of the modern United States. To 0:20:56.119 --> 0:20:58.720 be able to be fully transparent, you can't. And even 0:20:58.760 --> 0:21:01.280 then it might be kind of like Norway can be 0:21:01.320 --> 0:21:04.560 fully transparent, but even still, like can they like maybe 0:21:04.560 --> 0:21:07.640 somebody be like, well, I'm I want to practice being 0:21:07.680 --> 0:21:10.320 a terrorist, So I'm gonna start on Norway because they 0:21:10.359 --> 0:21:14.119 publish all their pipeline information. Yeah, so maybe I'll just 0:21:14.160 --> 0:21:16.119 go see what happens when I blow that up. Or 0:21:16.200 --> 0:21:18.960 the great wooden shoes scandal of the U was that 0:21:19.040 --> 0:21:22.560 Norway or the Netherlands. I don't think they wear wooden 0:21:22.600 --> 0:21:25.159 shoes in Norway. Oh, I just I just think they 0:21:25.200 --> 0:21:27.160 all wear wooden shoes all over the place. They don't. 0:21:28.600 --> 0:21:31.119 We have listeners there, man, they're gonna hear you, I know, 0:21:31.200 --> 0:21:35.679 but they know we're kidding, right, I don't know the 0:21:35.720 --> 0:21:40.200 Australians thought we were serious about drinking fosters down there, really, Yeah, 0:21:40.200 --> 0:21:42.080 didn't you see how many emails we got there were 0:21:42.119 --> 0:21:45.000 like gently correcting us that no one actually really drinks 0:21:45.040 --> 0:21:51.840 fosters in Australia's um. Bush Also what he made a 0:21:51.880 --> 0:21:54.560 move to do was limit access to records of former presidents, 0:21:55.240 --> 0:21:59.160 which was sort of a big move. UM. And then 0:21:59.520 --> 0:22:03.399 in the Intelligence Authorization Act of two thousand two wanted 0:22:03.400 --> 0:22:12.600 to limit requests by foreign governments or international organizations. So again, okay, 0:22:13.040 --> 0:22:14.960 I don't really disagree with all of it. One of 0:22:14.960 --> 0:22:18.280 the only things that Bush did too was UM he 0:22:18.720 --> 0:22:25.920 expanded who could get cheap or free access to for you? Yeah, UM, journalists. 0:22:26.320 --> 0:22:29.520 I think as part of the UM Watergate expansion or 0:22:29.600 --> 0:22:35.840 maybe the Clinton expansion, journalists were offered um, expedited and cheap, 0:22:35.960 --> 0:22:40.120 if not free for you UM requests. Yeah, we should 0:22:40.119 --> 0:22:43.560 point out you have to pay for this stuff. No 0:22:43.800 --> 0:22:46.480 journalists get a break. They say that, and apparently there's 0:22:46.520 --> 0:22:49.959 not a there's not a standard fee. It's just that 0:22:50.080 --> 0:22:53.600 as part of the law, an agency can recover costs 0:22:53.680 --> 0:22:58.560 associated directly associated with the search, right, UM, So it 0:22:58.600 --> 0:23:01.640 could be eleven dollars an hour, it could be two 0:23:01.680 --> 0:23:06.640 hundred dollars an hour. Depending journalists get faster expedited service 0:23:07.040 --> 0:23:10.520 as paper at least, and then they get their fees 0:23:10.560 --> 0:23:12.800 waved or else pay a reduced fee. And then what 0:23:12.920 --> 0:23:16.520 Bush did with the changes to FOYA under his watch 0:23:16.600 --> 0:23:21.239 were UM to expand who qualifies as a journalists. It 0:23:21.280 --> 0:23:26.639 now included independent investigative journalists bloggers UM, and then public 0:23:26.680 --> 0:23:29.640 interest groups. Apparently it always been included in that too. 0:23:29.840 --> 0:23:33.160 I just like thinking of w saying the word blogger, 0:23:33.880 --> 0:23:35.480 like I get the feeling that he didn't even know 0:23:35.520 --> 0:23:39.919 what that was. Intelligence. He just always struck me as like, 0:23:42.240 --> 0:23:44.520 I know he got made fun of for intelligence, but 0:23:45.480 --> 0:23:47.600 I don't think it's because of intelligence. I think he's 0:23:47.720 --> 0:23:49.800 the dude though that would sit down at a computer 0:23:50.400 --> 0:23:51.760 and just kind of be like, how how do I 0:23:51.800 --> 0:23:56.639 work this thing? You know, just sort of old school roots. 0:23:56.720 --> 0:24:00.919 He he didn't know what a blogger was. Maybe come on, 0:24:01.440 --> 0:24:05.240 maybe not or a vlogger. I agree with you, he 0:24:05.280 --> 0:24:07.920 definitely didn't know it a vlogger or at any rate. 0:24:07.960 --> 0:24:11.040 It was the Honest Leadership and Open Government Act. It 0:24:11.080 --> 0:24:13.800 was a good thing that UM and of course Harry 0:24:13.800 --> 0:24:16.560 Reid is who introduced the bill. But UM, see that's 0:24:16.560 --> 0:24:18.920 what I'm saying. Congress is like, we don't like this president. 0:24:18.920 --> 0:24:21.840 We're gonna make them look bad and force a foy 0:24:22.080 --> 0:24:24.639 some new Foya stuff on him. And then all it 0:24:24.680 --> 0:24:27.840 does is just point the point. It shines a light 0:24:27.920 --> 0:24:31.120 on just how secretive the government is. And then Congress 0:24:31.160 --> 0:24:34.800 looks good by trying to pull pull back the curtains. 0:24:35.520 --> 0:24:39.560 That's right. Then Obama gets on his h But hold on, 0:24:39.560 --> 0:24:42.000 I'm sorry, but that's not to say that even if 0:24:42.000 --> 0:24:44.360 Congress is doing it cynically, that it's a bad thing. 0:24:45.320 --> 0:24:48.960 It's actually a very good thing. Yes, it's just I 0:24:49.000 --> 0:24:51.760 don't think that Congress is riding to the rescue of 0:24:51.800 --> 0:24:55.000 the American people. I think that their motive is probably 0:24:55.000 --> 0:24:56.800 to make the president look bad. Yeah, I hear you. 0:24:57.480 --> 0:24:59.879 So then Obama mounts his horse and rides into the 0:25:00.000 --> 0:25:04.239 White House. Um. Not great would that have been if 0:25:04.240 --> 0:25:08.600 he literally did that like Ronald Reagan? You probably did? Um. 0:25:08.640 --> 0:25:12.040 In two thousand nine, he very first day in office, 0:25:12.560 --> 0:25:14.480 he said, here's a memo, We're going to be the 0:25:14.520 --> 0:25:25.520 most transparent government that's in American history. And everyone went, yes, 0:25:25.720 --> 0:25:28.800