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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know from how Stuff Works

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Speaker 1: dot Com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark.

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Speaker 1: There's Charles W. Chuck Bryant. We've got guest producer Matt

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Speaker 1: over here that makes this Stuff you Should Know Sunshine Edition.

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Speaker 1: The storms are gone. Well. Plus they say sunshine is

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Speaker 1: the greatest disaffectmant that really Yeah, you shine a light

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Speaker 1: in the dark corners and it reveals truth, gotcha. Plus

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Speaker 1: you know people are less shady in the sunlight. So

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Speaker 1: this is part episode two of our recording session of

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Speaker 1: uh Freshly being without Power Irma going through Atlanta dead cats.

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Speaker 1: All right, and I'm going on vacation. Oh good, tomorrow good.

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Speaker 1: So if anyone wants to meet me at the Isle

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Speaker 1: of Palm, South Carolina, build a time machine, right, go

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Speaker 1: back a few weeks and you'll find me drinking Gin

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Speaker 1: and Tonics on the beach. Nice songs, child, Oh really, Wow,

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Speaker 1: you're vacationing vacation, not frustratingly running around trying to get

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Speaker 1: sand out of sunscreen off a small child. That's a

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Speaker 1: losing proposition. Yeah, man, can't wait. Good, We'll enjoy yourself.

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Speaker 1: We were originally going to Folly Beach, but it was damaged.

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Speaker 1: The house was, but this one was not, so they

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Speaker 1: moved us. I've never been to island Palm is it

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Speaker 1: shaped like a palm like in Dubai. No, it's just

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Speaker 1: one of Charleston's. Uh. I don't know what they call him,

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Speaker 1: low country border islands. Maybe that's what they call him.

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Speaker 1: Now right next to Sullivan's Island and James Island and

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Speaker 1: Folly Beach are all kind of right there, great area.

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Speaker 1: Charleston's amazing. Yeah, we're gonna go in for dinner and

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Speaker 1: stuff and trying to throw a little money at their economy.

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Speaker 1: But I think they had some really bad flooding. So

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Speaker 1: everyone all right there. I thinks like three or six

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Speaker 1: ft storm surge that was there on the outskirts. They

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Speaker 1: were not even in the past in the end. Not

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Speaker 1: good stuff, not good. Well, I'm glad Charleston made it,

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Speaker 1: and I'm glad you're going to Charleston. Man, I can't wait.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna eat so much seafood. Yeah, alright, so Chuck,

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Speaker 1: as I was saying, sunshine is the greatest disinfectant. Let's hope. Um,

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Speaker 1: there's actually something called Sunshine Week. Have you heard about that. No,

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Speaker 1: it's a week that celebrates openness in government. It's as

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Speaker 1: simple as that. It's the Reporter's Committee for Freedom of

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Speaker 1: the Press. It's their thing, and they're trying to shine

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Speaker 1: a light on the idea of shining a light on government, right,

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Speaker 1: and that existed until this year. It's still right. No. Actually,

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Speaker 1: it's funny like the last guy gets a lot of

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Speaker 1: credit and praise for being open, but in retrospect, supposedly

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Speaker 1: it was very much a lot of smoking mirrors. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: there was. It was not a very open administration either. Well,

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Speaker 1: you know what they say, politics is politics? Who says that?

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Speaker 1: Is that? I love palm saying yeah the politics? Politics?

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Speaker 1: Have another crawfish past the frog wrest? Is there a

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Speaker 1: frog in that? No, that's just like a low country boil. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I love low country boil. I'm gonna make that. I

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Speaker 1: think you should my own self. I think you should

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Speaker 1: bring something back here for me. Yeah, I don't know

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Speaker 1: if I guess it would keep. It depends, you know.

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Speaker 1: I want to be like, here's a week old frog

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Speaker 1: morps to I'd probably still eat it. I know you would. So. Um,

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Speaker 1: the idea of of government giving up its secrets. Right,

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Speaker 1: it's actually fairly new here in the States. Um, there's

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Speaker 1: a a time not too long ago where if you

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Speaker 1: wanted classified information or any information for um, the federal government,

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Speaker 1: they you had really no way to ask for it.

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Speaker 1: And even if you could figure out who to ask

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Speaker 1: for it from, they would say no. And then you

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Speaker 1: would you'd say, well, what next, nothing next, man, go

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Speaker 1: back to sleep. Citizen, that was your role to just

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Speaker 1: shut up and stop asking questions. And thankfully for those

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Speaker 1: of us who believe that government should be way more

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Speaker 1: transparent than it is. Uh, there was a guy named

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Speaker 1: Representative John Moss from California. He was a congressman back

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Speaker 1: in the sixties, and he became concerned that, um, not Congress,

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Speaker 1: but the federal government, the executive branch, was getting a

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Speaker 1: little too opaque. And specifically, there was a report that

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Speaker 1: he asked for that concerned, UM, the firing of some

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Speaker 1: civil servants, ostensibly because their loyalty to the administration had

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Speaker 1: been questioned, and so they got fired, and he wanted

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Speaker 1: to look into it, and the federal agency he requested

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Speaker 1: the documents from said no. And he was a congressman,

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Speaker 1: yes he was, So he said, I'll be back, yeah,

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Speaker 1: Arnold style. And then this was but thirteen or so

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Speaker 1: years after UM, the American Society of Newspaper Editors published

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Speaker 1: a study about secrecy in the government and basically said

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Speaker 1: what you said, which is citizens have no access to records,

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Speaker 1: no recourse if they're denied records. That was the nine three.

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Speaker 1: Kind of surprising to me. It was that early that

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Speaker 1: they were kind of ringing the bell for this. But

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Speaker 1: I think the Cold War, like almost immediately the development

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Speaker 1: of the bomb and the Cold War really drove this,

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Speaker 1: this desire to keep everything secret, and the federal government,

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Speaker 1: the executive branch, keeps everything secret by classifying everything. There's

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Speaker 1: this kind of mentality that is classify everything when in doubt,

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Speaker 1: classify it because not only does it it it obscures

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Speaker 1: what you're doing from say, like your enemy, it also

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Speaker 1: obscures what you're doing from your citizen right, so you

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Speaker 1: can't be questioned, you can't be criticized, you can't be

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Speaker 1: exposed as incompetent. If no one knows what you're doing,

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Speaker 1: they can't see that if you're doing it poorly, and

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Speaker 1: that they could actually do it better, or know somebody

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Speaker 1: who could do it better, or it could elect somebody

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Speaker 1: who could do it better. And as the way that

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Speaker 1: you do that is to just classify everything, keep it

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Speaker 1: a secret. Yeah. I've always had the feeling that if

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Speaker 1: the federal government in the United States had its drugs,

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Speaker 1: they would operate in complete isolated secrecy. Yeah. Well they're

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Speaker 1: trying like you wouldn't even have press conferences, right, Like

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Speaker 1: they would just shut it down and say don't don't you.

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Speaker 1: Let's worry about anything we have it coverage. Just go

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Speaker 1: about your day, go about your business. Uh So Moss

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Speaker 1: went to uh fellow Democratic President Phil Democrat President Lyndon

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Speaker 1: Johnson and said, you know, I think we uh should

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Speaker 1: change the way we're doing things here, and Johnson said,

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Speaker 1: I don't know about that. That's pretty good, John Johnson.

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Speaker 1: We should. He's very interesting, Uh, I think, conflicted dude.

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Speaker 1: We should do a show on him at some point,

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Speaker 1: very ambitious domestic policies like he wanted to be FDR

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Speaker 1: like the Second Coming, didn't know a lot about foreign policy.

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Speaker 1: Oh that's not good. No, he's a very interesting dude. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: He's a domestic He was a domestic guy. Had I

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Speaker 1: never realized that he didn't know about was not his specialty.

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Speaker 1: I think he wanted to do great things for this country,

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Speaker 1: um in his heart right, but uh, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting. I think ever since I saw the Cranston

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Speaker 1: play in New York. What's it called all the Way?

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Speaker 1: I think, and they made it too. I didn't see

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Speaker 1: the movie version, but I saw the play all the Way.

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Speaker 1: That's what's called I think. So I think that's like

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Speaker 1: a tawdry John Ritter film or something like that. That's

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Speaker 1: let's go all the way? Okay, uh oh man, I

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Speaker 1: missed John Ritter, sure he was the best. Uh So anyway,

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Speaker 1: Johnson said, I don't know about that. All the all

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Speaker 1: the federal departments and agency said, I definitely don't know

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Speaker 1: about that. Bad idea, but it was the bell had

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Speaker 1: been wrong in the House. And this is something that

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Speaker 1: is kind of fun to look back on when these days,

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Speaker 1: how things are, how they are, how divisive they are.

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Speaker 1: Back in the House about a three hundred and seven

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Speaker 1: to zero to pass the Moss Freedom of Information Act,

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Speaker 1: the fo I A and UH John and signed it,

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Speaker 1: and uh didn't have a big press conference when he

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Speaker 1: signed it, like they do a lot of big laws

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Speaker 1: and bills. He signed it in secrecy. Yeah, he did, like, oh,

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Speaker 1: we'll sign it, but maybe people don't know about it.

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Speaker 1: I won't go we don't have to we have to

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Speaker 1: go around shooting our mouths off about it. But he

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Speaker 1: did say, no one should be able to pull the

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Speaker 1: curtains of secrecy around decisions which can be revealed without

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Speaker 1: injury to the public interest. I signed this measure with

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Speaker 1: a deep sense of pride that the United States is

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Speaker 1: an open society. Uh, but no one heard that, right,

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Speaker 1: the doors are shut, correct? So yeah, he signed it

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Speaker 1: in secrecy, which is a little weird, and also opened

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Speaker 1: the door for like, you know that that second part

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Speaker 1: of the first sentences decisions which can be revealed without

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Speaker 1: injury to the public interest, there's a big caveat attached

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Speaker 1: to that openness, right exactly. Don't forget we have ways

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Speaker 1: around this. Yeah. Um, And you said that it was

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Speaker 1: hardening to hear that Congress unanimously passed the four Act, right,

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Speaker 1: a little bit, right, This is what it is. This

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Speaker 1: is not the only time Congress has come together unanimously

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Speaker 1: in defense of FOIA. In two thousand four, team, which

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Speaker 1: we'll talk about later, they did with John Bayner as

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Speaker 1: the um at the helm of the House in Obama

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Speaker 1: in the White House, and that the Congress divided as

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Speaker 1: much as it's ever been. The House came together unanimously

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Speaker 1: in in for this Foya Act or Amendment A. There

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Speaker 1: was also a time when Gerald Ford was president where

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Speaker 1: Congress overrode a veto of his as far as FOYA.

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Speaker 1: So FOIA is this one thing because for for those

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Speaker 1: of you who don't know, it only pertains to documents

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Speaker 1: in the control of the executive branch of the federal government,

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Speaker 1: just the executive branch, just the White House. So any

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Speaker 1: secrets the president's administration is keeping, that's what it's pertaining to. Okay.

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Speaker 1: So Congress very frequently comes together and it's like, no,

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Speaker 1: we want you to share this information with everybody, including us,

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Speaker 1: and they look like the good guys too for coming

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Speaker 1: to the aid for open and honest and transparent government.

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Speaker 1: And just to clarify, Chuck, like, it's not just like

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Speaker 1: the White House. There's tons of agencies, federal agencies that

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Speaker 1: fall under the executive branch, including like the FBI or

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Speaker 1: the CDC or the UM. There just basically any agency,

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Speaker 1: if any federal agencies probably under the purview of the

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Speaker 1: the executive branch, so therefore FOYA would apply to it

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Speaker 1: as well. That's very nice to point that out, because

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Speaker 1: you confused even me off. Sorry about that. Uh So this, uh,

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Speaker 1: I think this this bears reading this quote. There's a

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Speaker 1: journalist named John Wiener or Winer who he um tried

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Speaker 1: for fourteen years to get John Lennon's FBI files through

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Speaker 1: f o i A quests, and he very succinctly wrote this,

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Speaker 1: and it kind of sums it up to me. The

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Speaker 1: basic issue was that government officials everywhere like secrecy by

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Speaker 1: keeping the public from learning what they have done, they

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Speaker 1: hope to avoid criticism, hinder the opposition, and maintain power

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Speaker 1: over citizens. And they're elected representatives. Classified files and official

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Speaker 1: secrets lie at the heart of the modern government bureaucracy.

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Speaker 1: Of such a hard time with that word. It's almost impossible,

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Speaker 1: is spell to I don't even try, uh and permit

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Speaker 1: the under undemocratic use of power to go unrecognized and

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Speaker 1: unchallenged by citizens. And he was just trying to get

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Speaker 1: John Lennon's files. That's how riled the peacock. You know,

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Speaker 1: you don't want to rale up a journalists, but that's

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Speaker 1: who this pertains to for the most part, I should

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Speaker 1: say not entirely, but yeah, for the most part is

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Speaker 1: accurate journalists. Journalists are the ones who are supposed to

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Speaker 1: be reporting on the goings on of the government, especially

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Speaker 1: when it comes to exposing wrongdoing, corruption, waste, all this off.

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Speaker 1: That's one of the main roles of the media, right yea,

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Speaker 1: journalists and more and more now activists, thankfully, citizen activists right.

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Speaker 1: And one of the reasons why citizen activists have gotten

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Speaker 1: in on this is because the journalists aren't doing it enough. Yeah. Um,

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Speaker 1: but the early on the journalists were largely in support

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Speaker 1: of FOYA. The Congress was like, sure, why not, it

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Speaker 1: will probably make the president who we don't like, look bad.

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Speaker 1: And um. Now we have as of the sixty six Act,

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Speaker 1: the Freedom of Information Act, right yeah, which officially, uh,

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Speaker 1: I mean, people know what this is. This is the

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Speaker 1: ability of a of a citizen of the world. Very

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Speaker 1: important there. You don't have to just be an American

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Speaker 1: citizen to request records of an executive branch like you said,

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Speaker 1: government agency. Uh. And along with that Act originally nineteen

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Speaker 1: sixty six said these are available to the public with

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Speaker 1: nine exemptions, which will go over later. Um that protect

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Speaker 1: the agency under certain circumstances. And if you were denied,

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Speaker 1: there is also now a process in place to appeal

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Speaker 1: that denied right. Very important and so when LBJ signed

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Speaker 1: it into law, it was basically like, yeah, I guess

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Speaker 1: just go along with it, but if you don't feel

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Speaker 1: like it, you don't have to write right. Um. That's

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Speaker 1: kind of went for a while, Yeah until Watergate. The

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Speaker 1: Watergate scandal really change people's relationship with government big time.

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Speaker 1: That changed government's relationship to government. Yeah. And one of

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Speaker 1: the things that happened was there was an update to

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Speaker 1: FOYA and a strengthening of FOYA UM so that there

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Speaker 1: were like greater sanctions if you didn't follow through on

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Speaker 1: on supplying the requested information. It was harder to just

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Speaker 1: say no to deny it. Yeah, they had a specific

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Speaker 1: time frame finally, like you couldn't just say yeah, we'll

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Speaker 1: get to it, right. So, Uh, Congress puts uh this

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Speaker 1: FOI amendments or updates on Gerald Ford's desk to sign,

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Speaker 1: and uh, He's like now, well he looked around the

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Speaker 1: room and said what should I do? Right? And the

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Speaker 1: two people that piped up where Donald ROMs felt his

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Speaker 1: chief of staff and Antonin Scalia, who was the chief

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Speaker 1: legal counsel for the Justice Department, and they both said,

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Speaker 1: don't sign it. Yeah. And apparently at least this article

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Speaker 1: says that Rumsfeld early on was a supporter of FOI right,

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Speaker 1: I think in the very easily manipulated version. Yeah. But

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Speaker 1: when it when it came time to right, he said no,

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Speaker 1: don't And so Ford argued that it was unconstitutional, and

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Speaker 1: Congress said, you're wrong, and we're overriding your v two.

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Speaker 1: That does not happened. Yeah, you say too too, that

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Speaker 1: doesn't happen very often that a veto is overridden. I

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Speaker 1: don't have ever done one on vitos should because I

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Speaker 1: have no idea how often it happens. But I guarantee

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Speaker 1: you it's not often. All right, So let's take a break. Um,

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Speaker 1: we're just getting heat it up here on this one. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And as you'll see in the coming segments for your

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Speaker 1: changes gets more teeth and less teeth over the years,

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Speaker 1: depending on whose office. And we'll be right back with

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Speaker 1: Ronald Reagan. All right, Ronnie, he's here. That's so, like

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Speaker 1: I promised, over the years, Foia has um had more

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Speaker 1: teeth and less teeth depending on who is running the show. Um,

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Speaker 1: probably not so. Surprisingly, when Ronald Reagan got into office

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Speaker 1: in two or in nineteen two, he created he made

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Speaker 1: it much tougher to uh, to get information, made it

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Speaker 1: easier for agencies to withhold stuff. Um, Bill Clinton comes along,

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Speaker 1: relaxes things, right, it kind of goes like that in

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Speaker 1: our country. Well, Reagan also one of his things was, um,

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Speaker 1: he definitely helps spearhead that classify everything mentality under his administration, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he said print, he said, manufacturer as many classified rubber

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Speaker 1: stamps as you can. Every office needs about a hundred

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Speaker 1: of them. And I think, especially during the Cold War,

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Speaker 1: the Soviets served as a real boogeyman for keeping citizens

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Speaker 1: in the dark. We don't want the Rooskies to find out.

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Speaker 1: So no, yeah, we we don't trust you with this

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Speaker 1: because you might hand it over to the Rooskies. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that was what they say. And they said Rooskys too,

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Speaker 1: they did so. Like I said, Clinton comes wrong along.

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Speaker 1: And there were a few, um, a few big events

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Speaker 1: in his administration. But hold and think about it. When

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Speaker 1: Clinton comes along, no more uss are well true, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: no more boogeyman. Right, good times, man, let's part. Uh

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Speaker 1: did you like? Yeah, that was good. It was not

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Speaker 1: I think together we do the perfect book. Glinton um

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Speaker 1: he during an administration had a bunch of big um

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Speaker 1: but had a big impact on FOYA. We're calling it

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Speaker 1: for you, right, Yeah, Freedom of Information Act. It's a

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Speaker 1: perfect acronym because it takes all words into account for you. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it's not fake. No, one just like cooked up

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Speaker 1: some weird word to throw in there to make it

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Speaker 1: a word. So the release an archiving of Cold War

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Speaker 1: previously classified Cold War documents was a big one. And

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Speaker 1: then a really big see change is when Clinton said,

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Speaker 1: you know, get with it and digitize all this stuff,

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Speaker 1: like this is the future. We don't need everything on paper.

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Speaker 1: Documents make it easier, uh to file and store the stuff.

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Speaker 1: He and make it easier to distribute this stuff under

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Speaker 1: FOY And it was and also uh they extended that timeline.

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Speaker 1: I don't think we initially said it was ten days. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you had ten days to respond to a fourier request

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Speaker 1: as a forficer um and then that was extended to

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Speaker 1: twenty days. Although it says in here that that wasn't

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Speaker 1: so much of a big deal. Just gave him a

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Speaker 1: little more time. Basically no, because an agency that's not

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Speaker 1: frequently contacted for FOY information and is not running a backlog,

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Speaker 1: it is probably going to do it in about ten

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Speaker 1: days anyway, right, An agency that is running a backlog

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Speaker 1: is still not going to get in touch with you

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Speaker 1: within ten days or twenty days. So it really had

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Speaker 1: no effect, but it is on the book still to

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Speaker 1: this day. They have twenty days to respond to you

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Speaker 1: before you can appeal their lack of response. So UM

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Speaker 1: George Bush H George W. Bush comes along, of course,

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Speaker 1: and UH titans restrictions again. After September eleven. That was

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Speaker 1: the perfect time to tighten the belt on FOY UH

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Speaker 1: again because the boogeyman is back USA Patriot Act. So

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Speaker 1: after September eleven, UM he ordered or you know, the

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Speaker 1: administration ordered thousands of documents and data removed from websites

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Speaker 1: agency websites, things like airport UH safety data, things like

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Speaker 1: pipeline maps, environmental data. I gotta tell you I don't

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Speaker 1: disagree with all of that. This is a double edged sword,

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Speaker 1: you know, this, this this topic itself is to unpack

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Speaker 1: this thing fully Like it's hard to make an argument

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Speaker 1: for full transparency or full secrecy. Sure, Yeah, I don't

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Speaker 1: think I would argue for full transparency. I think just

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Speaker 1: by definition we would have to get so far away

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Speaker 1: from being like the world's police and doving like military everywhere,

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Speaker 1: and like being interventionist and adventuroust and all just basically

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Speaker 1: completely changed the complexion of the modern United States. To

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Speaker 1: be able to be fully transparent, you can't. And even

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Speaker 1: then it might be kind of like Norway can be

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Speaker 1: fully transparent, but even still, like can they like maybe

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Speaker 1: somebody be like, well, I'm I want to practice being

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Speaker 1: a terrorist, So I'm gonna start on Norway because they

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Speaker 1: publish all their pipeline information. Yeah, so maybe I'll just

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Speaker 1: go see what happens when I blow that up. Or

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Speaker 1: the great wooden shoes scandal of the U was that

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Speaker 1: Norway or the Netherlands. I don't think they wear wooden

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Speaker 1: shoes in Norway. Oh, I just I just think they

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Speaker 1: all wear wooden shoes all over the place. They don't.

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Speaker 1: We have listeners there, man, they're gonna hear you, I know,

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Speaker 1: but they know we're kidding, right, I don't know the

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Speaker 1: Australians thought we were serious about drinking fosters down there, really, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: didn't you see how many emails we got there were

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Speaker 1: like gently correcting us that no one actually really drinks

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Speaker 1: fosters in Australia's um. Bush Also what he made a

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Speaker 1: move to do was limit access to records of former presidents,

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Speaker 1: which was sort of a big move. UM. And then

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Speaker 1: in the Intelligence Authorization Act of two thousand two wanted

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Speaker 1: to limit requests by foreign governments or international organizations. So again, okay,

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Speaker 1: I don't really disagree with all of it. One of

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Speaker 1: the only things that Bush did too was UM he

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Speaker 1: expanded who could get cheap or free access to for you? Yeah, UM, journalists.

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Speaker 1: I think as part of the UM Watergate expansion or

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Speaker 1: maybe the Clinton expansion, journalists were offered um, expedited and cheap,

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Speaker 1: if not free for you UM requests. Yeah, we should

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Speaker 1: point out you have to pay for this stuff. No

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Speaker 1: journalists get a break. They say that, and apparently there's

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Speaker 1: not a there's not a standard fee. It's just that

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Speaker 1: as part of the law, an agency can recover costs

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Speaker 1: associated directly associated with the search, right, UM, So it

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Speaker 1: could be eleven dollars an hour, it could be two

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Speaker 1: hundred dollars an hour. Depending journalists get faster expedited service

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Speaker 1: as paper at least, and then they get their fees

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Speaker 1: waved or else pay a reduced fee. And then what

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Speaker 1: Bush did with the changes to FOYA under his watch

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Speaker 1: were UM to expand who qualifies as a journalists. It

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Speaker 1: now included independent investigative journalists bloggers UM, and then public

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Speaker 1: interest groups. Apparently it always been included in that too.

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Speaker 1: I just like thinking of w saying the word blogger,

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Speaker 1: like I get the feeling that he didn't even know

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Speaker 1: what that was. Intelligence. He just always struck me as like,

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Speaker 1: I know he got made fun of for intelligence, but

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Speaker 1: I don't think it's because of intelligence. I think he's

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Speaker 1: the dude though that would sit down at a computer

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Speaker 1: and just kind of be like, how how do I

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Speaker 1: work this thing? You know, just sort of old school roots.

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Speaker 1: He he didn't know what a blogger was. Maybe come on,

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Speaker 1: maybe not or a vlogger. I agree with you, he

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Speaker 1: definitely didn't know it a vlogger or at any rate.

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Speaker 1: It was the Honest Leadership and Open Government Act. It

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Speaker 1: was a good thing that UM and of course Harry

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Speaker 1: Reid is who introduced the bill. But UM, see that's

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Speaker 1: what I'm saying. Congress is like, we don't like this president.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna make them look bad and force a foy

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Speaker 1: some new Foya stuff on him. And then all it

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Speaker 1: does is just point the point. It shines a light

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Speaker 1: on just how secretive the government is. And then Congress

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Speaker 1: looks good by trying to pull pull back the curtains.

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Speaker 1: That's right. Then Obama gets on his h But hold on,

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, but that's not to say that even if

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Speaker 1: Congress is doing it cynically, that it's a bad thing.

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Speaker 1: It's actually a very good thing. Yes, it's just I

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Speaker 1: don't think that Congress is riding to the rescue of

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Speaker 1: the American people. I think that their motive is probably

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Speaker 1: to make the president look bad. Yeah, I hear you.

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Speaker 1: So then Obama mounts his horse and rides into the

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Speaker 1: White House. Um. Not great would that have been if

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Speaker 1: he literally did that like Ronald Reagan? You probably did? Um.

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Speaker 1: In two thousand nine, he very first day in office,

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Speaker 1: he said, here's a memo, We're going to be the

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Speaker 1: most transparent government that's in American history. And everyone went, yes,

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Speaker 1: that's awesome, and he went you think people bought that?

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Speaker 1: He's like, oh my gosh, they did. Yeah, he said

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Speaker 1: that he wanted to die. He wrote a memo, like

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Speaker 1: you said, the first day in off very first day,

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Speaker 1: and he said that federal agencies agencies should adopt a

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Speaker 1: presumption in favor of disclosure, so lean toward releasing it

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Speaker 1: rather than against it, which is a big difference. And

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Speaker 1: he actually had Eric Holder, Um who was running the

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Speaker 1: d o J for him. I guess that makes him

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Speaker 1: as an attorney general, right, Eric Holder was Attorney general

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Speaker 1: Whenney and he said, figure out how to codify this,

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Speaker 1: and he did. They came up with UM guidelines for

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Speaker 1: the federal agencies to become more transparent. Yeah, and a

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Speaker 1: lot of it this that wasn't two thousand nine By

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Speaker 1: the time rolled around. The exact opposite was going on. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Two thousands and sixteen is when the Foyer Improvement Act

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Speaker 1: was was put through and UM foisted onto Obama. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this was the one that supposedly just kind of reinstated

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Speaker 1: a lot of what it was supposed to do to

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Speaker 1: begin with that had been shirked over the years from

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Speaker 1: what I understand, Yeah, Um, it was also an attempt

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Speaker 1: to take that codified presumption of disc of disclosure UM

423
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,359
Speaker 1: that the DJ come up with and put it into law,

424
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 1: like make it part of the Foyer Act. And a

425
00:26:54,040 --> 00:27:00,679
Speaker 1: FOIA request revealed lobbying by the Obama administration, tense lobbying

426
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:06,399
Speaker 1: by the Obama administration to prevent that that that codification,

427
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 1: that that an administration had come up with, to prevent

428
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 1: that from becoming part of FOIL law. And at the

429
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:15,119
Speaker 1: same time they're talking about how they're the most transparent

430
00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 1: administration ever, but they're also behind the scenes lobbying against it. Um.

431
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 1: And the thing that caught everyone's attention, or at least

432
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,199
Speaker 1: the people who filed these Foyer requests to get this

433
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:30,360
Speaker 1: information UM, is that in two thousand fourteen, Congress, well,

434
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 1: the House passed a bill that had this in it

435
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 1: four d and ten to nothing, unanimously passed it, and

436
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 1: then it was never brought up for a final vote.

437
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 1: John Bayner never called for a final vote, was just

438
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:47,879
Speaker 1: allowed to die. That's pretty suspicious. So when they finally

439
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:49,399
Speaker 1: got to the bottom of it, they saw that the

440
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:52,440
Speaker 1: d o J and the Obama administration and then later

441
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:55,639
Speaker 1: on the FTC, the Trade Commission, and the Securities and

442
00:27:55,720 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 1: Exchange Commission, we're all very much lobbying against the expand

443
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,960
Speaker 1: mentioned because one of the things that um that it

444
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 1: serves as an exemption to FOY requests is anything that

445
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:09,160
Speaker 1: has to do with the financial system or the agencies

446
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:11,879
Speaker 1: that regulate them. So the FTC and the SEC can

447
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:14,479
Speaker 1: do whatever they want and keep all their documents secret

448
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 1: and no one can do anything about it. Well, the

449
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 1: two thousand and sixteen four Act would have expanded that,

450
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:26,280
Speaker 1: but that got lobbied out. It is quite disheartening. I

451
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:29,280
Speaker 1: mean it's but yeah, like the Obama administration being the

452
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 1: most transparent administration of all time is just such bullocks.

453
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 1: It's just completely untrue. And yet it's it's a myth

454
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 1: that that was perpetuated by that administration that still stands today.

455
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 1: They used the Espionage Act more than all the other

456
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 1: presidents before them combined since the Espionage Act was was created,

457
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:51,000
Speaker 1: and I think the beginning of the twentieth century um

458
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 1: to to prosecute journalists sources. You just didn't go after

459
00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 1: journalists or their sources. The Obama administration was the first

460
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 1: one to do that. So there's a lot wrong with

461
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,480
Speaker 1: the idea that was the most transparent. Ever. Should we

462
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:09,719
Speaker 1: take a break, I think all right, we will be

463
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 1: back in boy it's still like we're still feel like

464
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 1: we're heating up here. I got a lot to cover.

465
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 1: We'll be back with how you can file one of

466
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 1: these things right for this Alright, So, as said before,

467
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 1: you can be a foreign national, you can be US citizen,

468
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 1: if you want to file a FOIA request. You can

469
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:50,160
Speaker 1: be a corporation, can be a news outlet. Uh most

470
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 1: well probably most times your journalists. Uh and we already

471
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 1: kind of went over the fees. But um, what you

472
00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 1: do is if you want to request documents, yeah, just

473
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:03,479
Speaker 1: fill this out and triplicate, get it back to US

474
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:08,960
Speaker 1: UH to request documents, you appeal um too directly to

475
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 1: that agency that holds the documents. Well that's just for

476
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 1: your own so you don't waste time. Well yeah, you

477
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 1: want to find out who to send it to. Yeah,

478
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,479
Speaker 1: and um no, I think you legally have to go

479
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:21,800
Speaker 1: to that agency and to the through the FOI office,

480
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:24,360
Speaker 1: and then you have to do both. I'm not mistaken,

481
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:27,320
Speaker 1: maybe not, but it's a good idea. Well, each agency

482
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 1: has its own FOY office, right Okay, So uh, well

483
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:34,640
Speaker 1: yeah that that bears pointing out, like that's part of

484
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 1: the FOI Act and all the improvements over the years

485
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:40,840
Speaker 1: is there is somebody at every office that heads us up,

486
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 1: at least one person, and it's it's got to be

487
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 1: on their website. There's got to be clear directions on

488
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 1: how to do this right. And most of the federal

489
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 1: agencies will have a very easy form that you can

490
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:56,080
Speaker 1: fill out on there for you, the easy forma what

491
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:00,320
Speaker 1: what what did we do to your face? Only that

492
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 1: you want to know exactly? Um, that you just fill

493
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 1: out these different fields and and you can submit a

494
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 1: FOIA request like that. Yeah, depending on what you're after,

495
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 1: we'll determine how long this takes or if you get

496
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 1: a response at all. Initially, Uh, they say it's first come,

497
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 1: first serve. Uh. If you're depends on what you're looking

498
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:22,440
Speaker 1: for and who the agency is. Quite honestly, if you're

499
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 1: looking for a few pages of a document from the

500
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 1: Forestry Service, you might get that thing turned around pretty quick.

501
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:32,040
Speaker 1: They will bring it to your house that day if

502
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 1: you were looking at you with a smile and then

503
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 1: a little rather little horse away. Everyone's riding horses. Um.

504
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 1: If you're looking for six hundred pages from the CIA,

505
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:47,959
Speaker 1: good luck, It'll take a little while. You will undoubtedly

506
00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 1: end up in federal court probably finally complaint. Yeah, because

507
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 1: in that case, FOI requests very frequently turned into Foyer lawsuits.

508
00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 1: It just happens, umsonal No, not at all, But that

509
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 1: does suck when it does happen, because that gets a

510
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 1: lot more expensive. Yeah. This one reporter, Charles Orstein, tried

511
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 1: to appeal the Department of Defense for a story he

512
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 1: was doing on drug companies paying doctors. Took three and

513
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:19,480
Speaker 1: a half years to get the final verdict, which was

514
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 1: a denial. Yeah, so how about that. So here's the process.

515
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:27,360
Speaker 1: You file a Foyer request, You wait twenty days, hopefully

516
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 1: within that time they respond to you. If they don't

517
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:34,400
Speaker 1: respond to you, you can appeal based on their lack

518
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 1: of response, or if they respond to you and say no,

519
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 1: you can appeal the denial after twenty days. Following that,

520
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 1: you can then go take it to federal court. And

521
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,520
Speaker 1: you can also, and this gets a little funny, Uh,

522
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 1: you can also file a Foyer request about your Foyer requests. Yeah,

523
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:54,080
Speaker 1: if it was denied. If it was denied, and then

524
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 1: that's when this one reporter is like, that's where it

525
00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 1: gets really depressing when you see sort of the beckheind

526
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 1: the curtain process of this stuff, right. So there there,

527
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:07,479
Speaker 1: we came across some tips from George Washington University's National

528
00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:12,520
Speaker 1: Security Archive for filing for your requests. Yeah there, It's

529
00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:15,200
Speaker 1: pretty straightforward, but it's good to know. Like one of

530
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:18,480
Speaker 1: the ones that stood out to me was like, don't

531
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 1: don't be an aggressive jerk to the FOY officer. In

532
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 1: a lot of cases, the FOY officer might even see

533
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:29,120
Speaker 1: things your way, but they might be the only person

534
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 1: at their agency who does. They might work at an

535
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 1: agency who thinks that FOYA is stupid and UM is

536
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 1: a threaten to national security, and they have to go

537
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:42,320
Speaker 1: and convince their colleagues who they have to work with,

538
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,840
Speaker 1: to give them those files to give to you. And

539
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:48,680
Speaker 1: it's They're probably not the most popular person at their

540
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:52,800
Speaker 1: their office, so ticking them off if not the best idea.

541
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:56,479
Speaker 1: So treat them with courtesy, with respect, be direct, don't

542
00:33:56,520 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 1: include tons of supporting UM in information and emails. Do

543
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 1: you want to give them as much information as you

544
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 1: can but succinct. Yeah, And you also don't want your

545
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:09,799
Speaker 1: request to be too broad. Although I think there's a

546
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:12,840
Speaker 1: lot of FOIA journalists who would disagree with this, But

547
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:16,719
Speaker 1: apparently the broader your request, the more difficult it makes, it,

548
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:19,759
Speaker 1: the more likely it is to be denied and say

549
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:22,279
Speaker 1: this is what I'm looking for specifically. Yeah, and the

550
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,360
Speaker 1: more likely it is to um overlap with other agencies,

551
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 1: which is just going to complicate things further. Um They say,

552
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:30,960
Speaker 1: don't include a lot of narratives, even if you think

553
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 1: your story is important, like like if you if you

554
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:37,400
Speaker 1: send a request that starts with dear sir, I'm an

555
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:41,799
Speaker 1: anarchist from Boise, Idaho, and I think whatever when I

556
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:45,759
Speaker 1: was a boy not not a good way to get started. Right.

557
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 1: Leave out some of those details. Try and be succinct,

558
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:49,279
Speaker 1: try and be to the point. A lot of this

559
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:51,840
Speaker 1: is common sense stuff. Well a lot of it is.

560
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:53,840
Speaker 1: One of the common sense things that I would not

561
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 1: have thought to to do first is to look to

562
00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 1: see if this information is already out there. That is

563
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 1: hu huge, and I would not have thought that either.

564
00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:07,319
Speaker 1: There's a lot of declassified information that exists a lot

565
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 1: of time on these agency websites. They have it a

566
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:11,960
Speaker 1: lot of times. I mean it saysn't here, and this

567
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:15,920
Speaker 1: is very true. I've done it. Congress has a just

568
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:20,920
Speaker 1: tons and tons of material about public policy, online that

569
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 1: you can find, so it might already be out there you. UM,

570
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:27,320
Speaker 1: you can also contact, like if there's a public interest

571
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:31,240
Speaker 1: group or something like that that's focused on your topic,

572
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 1: they might have access to it. I read that, UM

573
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 1: an article about a woman in Oregon who um the

574
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:41,279
Speaker 1: intercept wrote an article and I can't I think it's

575
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:44,319
Speaker 1: called the Poison Papers or something. This woman has been

576
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 1: fighting chemical companies because of what they were doing in

577
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:51,440
Speaker 1: her backyard for decades and has like a hundred thousand

578
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:55,719
Speaker 1: pages of internal documents and memos and stuff from lawsuits

579
00:35:56,120 --> 00:36:00,560
Speaker 1: that they're now scanning and digitizing and putting onto the web. Um.

580
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:03,799
Speaker 1: But UM, she would be a great person to go

581
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:07,440
Speaker 1: to for those specific art for those YEA, for those sources,

582
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 1: I bet you. At this point, unless it's something very

583
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:14,560
Speaker 1: specifically related to you personally or your family, someone has

584
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 1: probably either asked about it and gotten it and it exists,

585
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 1: or asked and been denied. Yeah. And the other thing

586
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:25,560
Speaker 1: is apparently I think the two thou sixteen amendments UM

587
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 1: said that you if if a document has been requested

588
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 1: three or more times, they have to release it to

589
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:35,799
Speaker 1: the public, like it's just released after that and then

590
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:39,480
Speaker 1: some UM agencies will maintain a fo your reading room

591
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 1: on their site which will have all the documents that

592
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:43,959
Speaker 1: have been publicly released through for you. Yeah. I thought

593
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:46,960
Speaker 1: three was a pretty heartening number. Actually, I could have

594
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:49,880
Speaker 1: if it would have said three hundred, I would not

595
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 1: have been surprised. So the fact that said three, I

596
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 1: was like, all right, that's legit. It's a magic number.

597
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:59,920
Speaker 1: So there's a lot of um, a lot of loophole

598
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 1: to this, right, Oh yeah, And I mean also you've

599
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:04,880
Speaker 1: got to step back here and think about what you're doing, Like,

600
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:08,000
Speaker 1: you are asking someone in the government to do research

601
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:10,879
Speaker 1: for you that you could probably do better if only

602
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 1: you had the access to the stuff that they had access.

603
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:15,480
Speaker 1: And the whole reason you're having to ask them in

604
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 1: the first place is because the government is unjustly keeping

605
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:21,480
Speaker 1: things in secret that it shouldn't be. Yeah, it's a

606
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:24,880
Speaker 1: little or welling in to say the least. It is okay,

607
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:27,759
Speaker 1: but there's a lot of loopholes associated with this that

608
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:32,719
Speaker 1: will keep government agency from from approving your request every time. Yeah,

609
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:34,520
Speaker 1: And the first thing they point out in our article,

610
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:39,040
Speaker 1: which is bears repeating, is you are asking for something

611
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:42,520
Speaker 1: you were not guaranteed anything. This is a request that

612
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:45,960
Speaker 1: you're submitting things that you definitely cannot do or get

613
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 1: physical objects, uh, like you can't request uh like evidence

614
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:55,239
Speaker 1: from the JFK shooting to be sent to your house,

615
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:59,640
Speaker 1: send me the magic poet. Uh. Private information about an individual,

616
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:02,560
Speaker 1: which gets so hinky. That's over the years they've gone

617
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:06,279
Speaker 1: back and forth on uh really at the basis of it.

618
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:08,760
Speaker 1: And we'll get to uh these some of these landmark

619
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 1: court rulings that decided these things. But whether or not

620
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 1: the public interest outweighs privacy rights, which is a big thing. Uh.

621
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:20,839
Speaker 1: And then information that's covered under the nine exemptions that

622
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 1: I think we kind of have to read through these, right,

623
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:25,799
Speaker 1: I think, all right, go ahead. The first one is

624
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:30,759
Speaker 1: any information that's classified for national security purposes. Okay, pretty straightforward. Uh.

625
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 1: And then you've got records that are only about an

626
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:36,759
Speaker 1: agency's personnel, rules and practices. I did not get that one,

627
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:40,359
Speaker 1: which makes it seem super shady to me, probably so

628
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:45,440
Speaker 1: like no, no break room rules, see a break room rules?

629
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:46,799
Speaker 1: Shall what are you doing in the break room? I

630
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:49,719
Speaker 1: hadn't even thought about that. Clean up your coffee? Uh.

631
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:52,680
Speaker 1: Information that's prohibited from being released because of another statute

632
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:55,960
Speaker 1: that just seems like a very long way of saying

633
00:38:56,200 --> 00:39:00,360
Speaker 1: kind of anything we'd think of um doc mints that

634
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:03,480
Speaker 1: protect trade secrets or contain information that could damage a

635
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:07,239
Speaker 1: company's business, Like you can't petition Coca Cola for their

636
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:10,759
Speaker 1: secret formula or you know, anything that would show that

637
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:13,560
Speaker 1: the telecoms were working with the n s A for

638
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:17,000
Speaker 1: the Prism project or something like, and that Coca Cola obviously,

639
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:20,760
Speaker 1: but petition the government for Coca Cola. UM number five

640
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:24,279
Speaker 1: is the most used one. Apparently, it's so frequently used.

641
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:27,360
Speaker 1: It's called the I'm withholding because I want to clause.

642
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:33,880
Speaker 1: It's it's basically any any documents that contain personal opinions, recommendations,

643
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:38,719
Speaker 1: or conclusionments, right, And it's it's ostensibly meant to protect

644
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 1: legal documents, so attorney client privilege, and to promote a

645
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 1: m a tone of frankness among inner agency and intra

646
00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:55,239
Speaker 1: agency communications. Basically, if you are emailing your colleague and

647
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 1: you're worried about somebody reading it on the outside, you're

648
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:01,080
Speaker 1: not gonna be as open and frank. And it's kind

649
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:05,880
Speaker 1: of freeze free speech within the agency. It's so broad,

650
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:09,920
Speaker 1: so vague and everything falls under it that UM A

651
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:14,799
Speaker 1: number five is is the exemption most frequently used. Like

652
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 1: all they really needed is number five. Basically, UM personal

653
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:24,239
Speaker 1: privacy UM things like social security numbers, phone numbers, addresses,

654
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:27,960
Speaker 1: stuff like that. UM. Law enforcement documents that could interfere

655
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 1: with law enforcement deprived person of the fair trial invasion

656
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:37,120
Speaker 1: of privacy again reveal identities of confidential sources, law enforcement techniques,

657
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 1: or procedures for investigations or prosecutions, or anything that endangers

658
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:45,319
Speaker 1: that person's life or safety. Uh, this one is the

659
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:48,880
Speaker 1: one that drives me up the wall. Information related to

660
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:53,440
Speaker 1: agencies that are responsible for regulating financial institutions see previous

661
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:57,960
Speaker 1: rant right. Documents that protect information related to geological or

662
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:02,279
Speaker 1: geophysical data, including maps, makes sense to me that one does.

663
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:05,360
Speaker 1: So those are the nine. I don't know if those

664
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:07,400
Speaker 1: I mean there are originally nine. Are those the original

665
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:09,239
Speaker 1: nine or those just been tweaked over the years. I

666
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:11,799
Speaker 1: believe those are the original nine and they're still in use.

667
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 1: All right. So UM, there's this really good point made

668
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:21,600
Speaker 1: by a journalist named Philip eel ile E I l Um,

669
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:25,920
Speaker 1: and he says that if you are a an editor

670
00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:30,240
Speaker 1: who is being approached for the story about how another

671
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:34,759
Speaker 1: journalist is being stonewalled in their foyer request that you

672
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:37,439
Speaker 1: kind of have an obligation to tell other people about

673
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:40,399
Speaker 1: it because if you don't, he says, quote, you're not

674
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:44,120
Speaker 1: being neutral, you're helping the government keep taxpayers in the dark.

675
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:47,800
Speaker 1: And so that combined with you know, going up against

676
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:51,000
Speaker 1: the government and then a light being shined on it

677
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:54,680
Speaker 1: when the government doesn't cooperate and follow the letter of

678
00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 1: the law just means like you might as well not

679
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,719
Speaker 1: have for you that it's just basically a roll of

680
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 1: the dice whether you're going to get it or not,

681
00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:07,480
Speaker 1: rather than predictable under the terms of the law. Right,

682
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:10,600
Speaker 1: So don't don't file a FO your request get denied

683
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:13,279
Speaker 1: and then just say all right, right, or if you

684
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:17,879
Speaker 1: go to another publication and you're at that publication, don't

685
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:19,960
Speaker 1: just be like this is boring, no one cares about that.

686
00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:22,399
Speaker 1: You need to write about it. People need to talk

687
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:25,440
Speaker 1: about it. And if if stonewalling is going on, from

688
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:27,879
Speaker 1: FO your requests all right. So we promised a couple

689
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:31,319
Speaker 1: of landmark court rulings. Um, this first one is good

690
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:36,520
Speaker 1: ninety six philipp E v. The c I A. I

691
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:38,319
Speaker 1: think usually when you're v. The C I A, we

692
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:41,840
Speaker 1: know which way that's gonna work, right, probably not in

693
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:45,080
Speaker 1: Philippe's favor. Uh. And that's what happened in this case.

694
00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:47,720
Speaker 1: So this was the very famous everyone's heard the phrase

695
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:50,719
Speaker 1: we can neither confirm nor deny the existence or non

696
00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:54,520
Speaker 1: existence of X. This is where that came from. Uh.

697
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 1: And the original case was the UH there was a

698
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:00,799
Speaker 1: Soviet submarine sunk off the coat sot Hawaii, and the

699
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:03,440
Speaker 1: CIA said, who should we partner with to build a

700
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:06,640
Speaker 1: ship to go look for this thing? Howard Hughes, of course,

701
00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:08,840
Speaker 1: we need to do an episode just on that. On

702
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:13,400
Speaker 1: Howard Hughes that, yeah, totally uh. And that ship was

703
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:17,120
Speaker 1: called the Glomar Explorer and UM to salvage the submarine.

704
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:20,000
Speaker 1: So there was a rolling Stone reporter file the Foyer request,

705
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:24,279
Speaker 1: and the CIA very famously said, we cannot confirm. Uh.

706
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:27,520
Speaker 1: We refused to confirm or deny any such a document.

707
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:30,279
Speaker 1: And he went, what does that even mean? Like no

708
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:33,759
Speaker 1: one's ever ever even said that before? And the CIA went, Hey,

709
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:38,719
Speaker 1: nice work. I think we flu mixed everybody did, uh,

710
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:40,759
Speaker 1: And it did work. So eventually it went to federal

711
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 1: appeals Court and they said CIA wins uh. And now

712
00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:46,919
Speaker 1: that is known as the Glomar response that you hear

713
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:50,719
Speaker 1: over and over and over. That's where it's origin. Like

714
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:54,760
Speaker 1: pretty neat. Um. There's another one that was pretty big.

715
00:43:55,520 --> 00:44:02,080
Speaker 1: It actually came into play pretty quickly after it was ruled,

716
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:05,439
Speaker 1: I guess so. Two thousand and sixteen, the US Court

717
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:09,280
Speaker 1: of Appeals said that if you have work related federal

718
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:13,160
Speaker 1: agency emails and a personal account, you can't get around

719
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:15,600
Speaker 1: a Foyer request. Who would do that? And that was

720
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:20,840
Speaker 1: used for a long time, including most famously by Hillary Clinton,

721
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:25,239
Speaker 1: who um, her whole email scandal came out of a

722
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:28,640
Speaker 1: Foyer request. There were a whole bunch of people who

723
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:32,200
Speaker 1: had filed Foyer requests dating as far back as two

724
00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:36,520
Speaker 1: thousand twelve. I think the Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics

725
00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:40,680
Speaker 1: in Washington crew filed one of the first ones UM,

726
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:43,120
Speaker 1: and the State Department just kept losing them or said

727
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:45,960
Speaker 1: they weren't aware of any four requests or whatever. And

728
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:50,040
Speaker 1: then a Foyer reporter, he's a self styled Foyer terrorist,

729
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:55,400
Speaker 1: I believe, addresses himself. I think so. UM. Jason Leopold

730
00:44:55,800 --> 00:45:01,040
Speaker 1: filed a Foyer request UM for Clinton stuff as well,

731
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:03,400
Speaker 1: and then was in talks I believe with the State

732
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:07,319
Speaker 1: Department for getting that for your request fulfilled, and it

733
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:13,520
Speaker 1: led to the existence of Clinton's server in her home

734
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:16,960
Speaker 1: that she was keeping State Department secrets on or using

735
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:19,919
Speaker 1: for State Department official email. He eventually had a sue

736
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:23,120
Speaker 1: I think even oh yeah, yeah, right, almost out of

737
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:26,600
Speaker 1: the gate. Um. But that's a That's another point too,

738
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:28,800
Speaker 1: is that, like again, a lot of these things quickly

739
00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:33,520
Speaker 1: become foil lawsuits. Which if you're a journalist with a

740
00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:36,560
Speaker 1: big organization that's willing to spend money on foil lawsuits,

741
00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 1: that's great. But if you're just an independent journalist or

742
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:42,359
Speaker 1: a responsible citizens group or something like that, you might

743
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:45,640
Speaker 1: not have the money to go to court. And the

744
00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:48,080
Speaker 1: government knows that. So a lot of a lot of

745
00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:52,160
Speaker 1: Foyer requests just die upon denial because the person doesn't

746
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:55,319
Speaker 1: have the resources to take the government to court over it. Yeah,

747
00:45:55,400 --> 00:46:00,880
Speaker 1: Jason Leopold bears mentioning for sure, because he is uh,

748
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:05,440
Speaker 1: he's Mr Foya, Dr Foya. Um. He has probably filed

749
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 1: more fo your lawsuits than anyone. In fact, it says

750
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:12,520
Speaker 1: so um, anyone more more than anyone except for The

751
00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:14,839
Speaker 1: New York Times. Over the years in the fifteen years.

752
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:18,400
Speaker 1: He's been the entire New York Times. Yeah. Uh. And

753
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:20,480
Speaker 1: he worked for Advice for many, many years and now

754
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:23,800
Speaker 1: works for BuzzFeed. And um was inducted into the National

755
00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:26,960
Speaker 1: Freedom of Information Hall of Fame, which I've never heard of.

756
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:33,399
Speaker 1: But that's adorable. And he's the one who, ah, well,

757
00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:36,560
Speaker 1: he sued for Clinton's emails. He Um, he's the one

758
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:39,919
Speaker 1: that got information on Guantanamo. He's the one that got

759
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:45,160
Speaker 1: information on U n s A and and Snowdon Snowdon's revelations. Yeah,

760
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:48,120
Speaker 1: he has like a knack for thinking of what to

761
00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:51,319
Speaker 1: ask for. So like he asked for the drafts of

762
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 1: the talking points for the n s A after this

763
00:46:56,920 --> 00:46:59,800
Speaker 1: emails or the Snowden revelations came through, Which is to

764
00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:02,799
Speaker 1: say he's a great researcher. He's a great researcher's mind.

765
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:05,440
Speaker 1: He's about as good as they come as far as

766
00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:10,239
Speaker 1: researchers go. Yeah, we should put him on staff. I'm

767
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:13,399
Speaker 1: sure he'd take us up on it right away. We'd

768
00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:17,440
Speaker 1: be like, we need to look into crayons. You got

769
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:19,799
Speaker 1: anything else? Nope? Okay, Well, if you want to know

770
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:23,480
Speaker 1: more about FO, you you know what, send a FO

771
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:26,920
Speaker 1: your request that's the best way to get acquainted. Figure

772
00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:28,640
Speaker 1: it out, go do it, let us know how it

773
00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:32,680
Speaker 1: turned out. Uh, since I said for your request in

774
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:37,520
Speaker 1: there somewhere, it's time for listener mail. I think this

775
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:41,520
Speaker 1: is anonymous. I never heard back from this this person,

776
00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:45,520
Speaker 1: but it's a good one because we got a legit

777
00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:53,040
Speaker 1: um psychopath. Yeah, I think this one's probably anonymous. Yeah. Sorry,

778
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:55,800
Speaker 1: I'm just looking to see now did not You're back? Um?

779
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:59,400
Speaker 1: Hello guys, love your show. Um. I've always wanted a

780
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:02,600
Speaker 1: reason to write, but I'm endlessly learning and entertained by

781
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:04,239
Speaker 1: your show. I felt compelled to write as a high

782
00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:09,440
Speaker 1: functioning psychopath. I found a young age after many lock

783
00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:13,719
Speaker 1: up fires, block ups, fires, arrest trouble, et cetera. I

784
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:17,080
Speaker 1: know I didn't act or react like normis or normal people.

785
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:19,040
Speaker 1: I realized at thirteen I had to learn to play

786
00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:21,520
Speaker 1: nice with others I would be locked up. Became a

787
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:24,880
Speaker 1: student of human behavior. Cry when other's cry, show shocked

788
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:27,960
Speaker 1: when others do. I'm a successful, in good family man. Uh,

789
00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:30,440
Speaker 1: father of two college age kids, one of which is

790
00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:33,839
Speaker 1: a psychopath. And that was a very odd conversation. Yes,

791
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:36,440
Speaker 1: something is missing in my brain, though I don't count

792
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:40,480
Speaker 1: this as bad. I've been in so many emergency situations, avalanches,

793
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:44,600
Speaker 1: swift water rescue, medical emergencies. I've heard people say the

794
00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:47,719
Speaker 1: training takes over and it feels more like taking off

795
00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:51,560
Speaker 1: the mask. Norm's panic and run. I just hit the switch.

796
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:54,120
Speaker 1: I do agree, however, that people like this should be

797
00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:57,399
Speaker 1: avoided if at all possible, especially if they haven't learned

798
00:48:57,440 --> 00:49:01,439
Speaker 1: to play well with others. It's a little scared recent. Uh,

799
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:03,799
Speaker 1: some of us on the spectrum are safe and dare

800
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:06,279
Speaker 1: I say necessary, some of us can learn and care

801
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:09,319
Speaker 1: and learn to care and feel. I have learned through

802
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:12,920
Speaker 1: much trouble and strife that I can care through twenty

803
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:20,000
Speaker 1: years of A and N A so very interesting revealing email. Yeah,

804
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:23,319
Speaker 1: it sounds like a pretty thrilling life too. Yeah. And

805
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:27,680
Speaker 1: you know, we heard from another psychopath and I think

806
00:49:27,719 --> 00:49:30,360
Speaker 1: they've come to terms with the fact that their brain

807
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:33,319
Speaker 1: is different. And I would still like to function in

808
00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:36,480
Speaker 1: the society, so I have learned to do so or

809
00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:39,120
Speaker 1: they'll lock me up, right, And we talked about the spectrum,

810
00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:41,960
Speaker 1: and you know, it's just fascinating to me. That was

811
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:47,120
Speaker 1: a good episode. Yeah, despite our weird pronunciations. Well, thanks

812
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:51,600
Speaker 1: a lot anonymous for writing in We appreciate you, um

813
00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:54,239
Speaker 1: and UH. If you want to get in touch with

814
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:57,000
Speaker 1: this anonymous or otherwise, you can tweak to us at

815
00:49:57,120 --> 00:50:00,080
Speaker 1: s Y s K podcast. You can join us on

816
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:02,239
Speaker 1: Facebook dot com slash Stuff you Should Know. You can

817
00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:04,480
Speaker 1: also hang out with Chuck on Facebook at Charles W.

818
00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:06,719
Speaker 1: Chuck Bryant. You can hang out with me on Twitter too,

819
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:09,279
Speaker 1: by the way, at josh um Clark. Send us an

820
00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:12,080
Speaker 1: email this stuff podcast at how stuff Works dot com

821
00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:14,040
Speaker 1: and it's always hanging out with us at our home

822
00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:20,480
Speaker 1: on the web. Stuff you Should Know dot com. For

823
00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:22,920
Speaker 1: more on this and thousands of other topics, is that

824
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:34,600
Speaker 1: how stuff Works dot com