1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:04,000 Speaker 1: Ridiculous crime is a production of I Heart Radio is 2 00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 1: what Elizabeth? Oh you know it's ridiculous. Oh girl, do 3 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 1: I got for you? You're ready? I got I know 4 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: something ridiculous. Okay, this is probably gonna blowdoors on your mind. 5 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:17,959 Speaker 1: But Napoleon Bonaparte was a romance novelist. Really, yeah, I 6 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:24,120 Speaker 1: just learned about this in Napoleon wrote the novel Clisson Eugenie. Right. 7 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 1: So the book is a romance novel, literally like a 8 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 1: Harlequin romance novel, and it's a fictionalized version of Napoleon's 9 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 1: romance with a woman named Eugenie Desiree Clary. Now, back 10 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:37,880 Speaker 1: when Nappi was a soldier, she was a young woman. 11 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:40,920 Speaker 1: They fell in love, but there's was a doomed romance 12 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 1: that could not be together. So how does the romance end? 13 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 1: He has this lover lead his men, because he's a soldier, 14 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 1: of course, lead his men in a charge, and he 15 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:51,879 Speaker 1: dies in a hail of bullets and gunfire like like 16 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: Iced t Rhymed and New Jack Hustler. When I dies, 17 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 1: gonna be bullets and gun smoke. That's how his character 18 00:00:56,760 --> 00:01:00,160 Speaker 1: goes out, like literally really speaking, though people said it 19 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:02,959 Speaker 1: was a really good book, and then and then yeah, 20 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 1: and then he was inspired by Rousseau and uh like Garta, 21 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: and apparently it spoke to his times. So I wanted 22 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 1: to see if this was true, so I checked Walmart 23 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: for reviews of the book. Yeah, because I want to 24 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:19,479 Speaker 1: even the people connected. So I checked the Walmart reviews 25 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 1: and Napoleon's romance novel, and I found a person wrote 26 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 1: five stars a very surprising but welcome novel by someone 27 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 1: who was the last person I would have expected to 28 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 1: write fiction and accomplished well written stories. Said in the 29 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:36,399 Speaker 1: time Bonaparte would have known so well. Truly a very 30 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:41,679 Speaker 1: romantic author, not just Josephine knew about his romance. Any 31 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:45,480 Speaker 1: reader of this book apparently got touched by the well 32 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 1: you know, there, you go ridiculous. I'm going to head 33 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 1: out to Walmart and get one that's ridiculous. You know 34 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 1: what else is ridiculous? Lant on me telling and selling 35 00:01:56,840 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 1: a lie so big it contributes to the downfall of 36 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 1: a US president. Oh, I like this. This is Ridiculous 37 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:27,080 Speaker 1: Crime a podcast about absurd and outrageous capers, heists and cons. 38 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:35,080 Speaker 1: It's always murder free and on ridiculous. Zaren Elizabeth. There 39 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:39,519 Speaker 1: was once an art forger named Elmer Dohrri or Dory, 40 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 1: I don't know whatever, Yeah, don't worry, let me do it. 41 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 1: He was Belgian. See I was close. Yeah, that's probably it. 42 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:50,079 Speaker 1: He was prolific. Yeah, and one day he's going to 43 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:54,799 Speaker 1: get his own episode of the show. Not today. Today, 44 00:02:54,800 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 1: we're talking about someone who profiled old Elmer like a writer. 45 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 1: And his name was Clifford Irving. Cliff was a character. 46 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: He was an American novelist and an investigative reporter. He 47 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:13,920 Speaker 1: was born in nineteen thirty in New York City. His 48 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 1: dad was a Collier's cover artist Good Magazine, Yeah, and 49 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:21,920 Speaker 1: the founding member of the National Cartoonists Society. He also 50 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:26,520 Speaker 1: created the syndicated strip Potsy. No, I only know the 51 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 1: Happy Day character. You know, this is like way before 52 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 1: and it's po T T S Y whatever, um T 53 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 1: y Yeah, I don't know. Um. It's like a little 54 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 1: Abner character, like somebody dealing with the depression. Yeah. Yeah. 55 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 1: So by the time that Clifford Irving died, he was seven, 56 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 1: he'd been married six times. No relation to Washington Irving, right, 57 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 1: Like this is not something or maybe who's to say 58 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 1: except for me. So he gets married. Um, so he 59 00:03:57,000 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 1: gets married. He's been married six times. He met three 60 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 1: of his wives while living on the Spanish island of Ibisa. 61 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 1: In his life, he did the following things. Sailed around 62 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 1: the world, lived in a houseboat in India. He rode 63 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:18,160 Speaker 1: into Tibet on horseback. Okay, that's a move. Yeah. He 64 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:22,039 Speaker 1: was on the cover of Time magazine. He worked with 65 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 1: Orson Wells. He spent time in prison. He was played 66 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 1: by Richard gear in a film. Yeah. It was a 67 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:36,920 Speaker 1: movie called The Hoax. I don't know that one most 68 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 1: people don't is an American movie. Yeah, came out in 69 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:44,480 Speaker 1: two thousand. Irving was not a fan of the movie. 70 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 1: He said, quote, it is fantasy, a hoax about a 71 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:52,480 Speaker 1: hoax featuring someone who happens to share my name. Richard 72 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:55,120 Speaker 1: Gears too old for the part. The film is set 73 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 1: in Westchester County, a conservative suburb of New York, rather 74 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 1: than the lazy air island of Abisa. Yeah, he's just 75 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:07,280 Speaker 1: not having it. Clifford Old Cliff He wrote a book 76 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 1: called Fake exclamation Point and that was published June one, 77 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:16,720 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty nine. Um, it's about the Hungarian art forgery 78 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 1: and the movie, while or the book wound up being 79 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 1: the inspiration for the Orson Wells movie f for Fake. 80 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 1: I was wondering, so Irving's living in Ibiza. Um he 81 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 1: becomes friends with Door, is this master art forger? Door 82 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 1: sold hundreds of fake pieces of art to art collectors, 83 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:40,679 Speaker 1: to museums. Um, and those people thought they were getting 84 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 1: Picasso's Madigliani's cultured life. Than I was going to carry 85 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 1: this off too. So he's got like he's swaineering around 86 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 1: and he has to be in that world. He was 87 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:54,920 Speaker 1: saturating the market with thousands of these and there are 88 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 1: some that are still out there today that haven't been identified. 89 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 1: Find this out there, like, wait, this stuff is fak 90 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 1: exactly like I said. He's going to get his own 91 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:08,680 Speaker 1: episodes soon enough. But Clifford Irving, Clifford Irving's book about 92 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 1: to Hory ended their friendship obviously, Um, he was not 93 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 1: Hory wasn't happy being referred to as a charming crook. 94 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 1: That's the strange place to start. So Irving is thinking 95 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 1: about how like with a little bit of the part 96 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 1: of the charming to say, so that's my motto for today. Um, 97 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:32,240 Speaker 1: so Irving seeing like you know what if I have 98 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:35,719 Speaker 1: a little confidence, Um, you know, if I could be 99 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 1: like to Horry and pull off a major scam, Like 100 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:42,239 Speaker 1: all it takes is just you know, a little maxie yourself. 101 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 1: So he's looking back at the book that he's written, 102 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:47,920 Speaker 1: and it gives him an idea. He sends a copy 103 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 1: of fake exclamation point to none other than the famous 104 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 1: recluse Howard Hughes. Why yeah, So, for those not familiar, 105 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:01,799 Speaker 1: Howard Hughes was a very successful businessman and acclaimed pilot, 106 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 1: a film producer, owner of movie studios and casinos, and engineer, 107 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 1: coding addict, and at one point the richest man in 108 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:12,680 Speaker 1: the world. Catherine had Burn's boyfriend. He was. He got 109 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 1: around wildly eccentric, particularly as he aged. Um, he always 110 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:19,680 Speaker 1: ate the same thing for dinner, a New York strip 111 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 1: state cook medium rare a dinner salad and peas. That 112 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 1: sounds like a great time. I would totally eat that. 113 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 1: I would have to cut my nails, couldn't do it 114 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 1: every single day, wrapped my nail around the fourth He's 115 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 1: the one who never cut his nails, right. Yeah. In 116 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 1: he went to a film studio near his house after 117 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 1: telling his assistance that he wanted to screen some movies, 118 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 1: and he stayed there for four months, didn't come out, 119 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 1: never left, never turned on the lights, just had the 120 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 1: films going all the time. Um. He would write memos 121 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 1: to them with instructions like don't look at me and 122 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 1: only speak unless spoken to a right side under the door. Yeah, exactly. 123 00:07:57,560 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 1: The whole time he's in there, he sat in this chair, 124 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 1: usually with no clothes on all. That's the scene in 125 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:07,680 Speaker 1: the aviator, just watching movies. He finally comes out in 126 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 1: the summer of and his hygiene was discussing. That's when 127 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 1: we get the fingernail things starting heat for it's been 128 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 1: weeks since he took a shower, since he cut his fingernails. 129 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 1: He was just gross, gross, gross. So he's a germ 130 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 1: fobe too, yes, which was like, okay, that's weird, um, 131 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 1: not the German phobe. But so we have this really 132 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:35,559 Speaker 1: fascinating eccentric billionaire. Clifford Irving sends a copy of his book, 133 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 1: and he was really amazed when Hughes replied with a 134 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 1: thank you note for this free copy of the book, 135 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 1: and he said, I really loved how gently you handled 136 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 1: the hory in the book. Okay, d um, Irving writes 137 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:56,319 Speaker 1: back to Hughes and said, I will be equally sensitive 138 00:08:56,559 --> 00:09:00,160 Speaker 1: if you let me write about you. You know, um, 139 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 1: let me ghost write a tell all biography. Let me 140 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 1: write a biography and authorized biography of you. And then 141 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 1: Hughes wrote back and accepted the request. Yes, the hook 142 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 1: is set, or did he spoiler spoiler alert He did not. 143 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:19,559 Speaker 1: So he is super well known for being a recluse 144 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 1: his bizarre social habits. He had avoided all contact with 145 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 1: the media since eight and his last interaction was with 146 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 1: Fortune magazine. He contacted them to complain about J. Paul 147 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:35,080 Speaker 1: Getty being listed as the world's richest man when it 148 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 1: was actually him, and then at the same time he 149 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 1: also said stop investigating my empire. So he's like, don't 150 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 1: look into me. But here's the thing about me. Trust 151 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 1: on number one. So the public is desperate for information 152 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 1: because he's so fascinating. Um, they would nixt nine. And 153 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:53,160 Speaker 1: he's also a wilder person. I mean, like the movies 154 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:57,640 Speaker 1: he makes are like the yellow journalism of Hollywood. He's 155 00:09:57,679 --> 00:10:00,320 Speaker 1: pushing the edges in the limits everywhere. He's not somebody 156 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 1: just trying to make money. He's trying to like really 157 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:06,200 Speaker 1: change innovates everywhere he goes in every industry everything. Yeah. 158 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 1: Um nine Esquire magazine they published what they called footage 159 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 1: of Hughes, which was just a grainy image of a 160 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:15,679 Speaker 1: man in a bathroom talking on the phone. It was 161 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 1: like finding Bigfoot. To admit later it's fake, such a 162 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 1: big foot moment. So any time you have a grainy 163 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:24,679 Speaker 1: photo and you claim this is all you'll find this 164 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:26,680 Speaker 1: is a theme we get running here of like yeah, 165 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 1: this is no, it's actually not. Please ask more questions. 166 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 1: So Irving goes to his editor Beverly Low and says, look, 167 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 1: I scored an authorized Howard Hughes book. That was the 168 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 1: first note from Howard Hughes. Legit. Oh my god, just 169 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 1: send it off. Never hears yeah, sense right um. So 170 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 1: he then he goes and he talks to Life magazine 171 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 1: and McGraw hill publishers, and he says, Hughes wants to 172 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 1: do this, this like authorized biography. He will only participate 173 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:03,200 Speaker 1: if the project remains a secret while in development, and 174 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:07,839 Speaker 1: all correspondence can only be between me and Howard Hughes 175 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 1: even on It's like the matters of finance for the payment, 176 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 1: it has to go through me. You can't talk directly 177 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:14,840 Speaker 1: to him, and I'll give you his address. I happen 178 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 1: to have it. And the thing is, it's like, you know, 179 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:19,440 Speaker 1: it's a little bit. They can believe it because there's 180 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 1: such a recluse and he's so odd. So he's the 181 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:25,360 Speaker 1: most he's the richest person in the world. People want 182 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:29,560 Speaker 1: him to act this one in a certain exactly so 183 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:34,400 Speaker 1: Clifford Irving. He gives these letters to the publishers, um 184 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:38,080 Speaker 1: that verify everything from Hughes, but they're forged. He's written these, 185 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 1: I'm Howard, here's everybody, um, and like, don't forget so 186 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 1: Howard he used as a been seen in public for 187 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:48,320 Speaker 1: more than a decade. Um. People just accept this whole lie. 188 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:52,679 Speaker 1: In an effort to maintain secrecy, any communication about the 189 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 1: book between Irving and the publishers had to be referred 190 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 1: to as Project Octavio. Well, I don't even know where 191 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 1: that comes from, but it's amazing. So if you add 192 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:05,360 Speaker 1: these weird things on top, of course, they're like, oh, 193 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 1: we're eating this up, you know. So Irving signs the 194 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 1: contract to write the book for McGraw hill March one, 195 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 1: and he negotiated deal for a hundred thousand dollars for 196 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:22,840 Speaker 1: him to write it back. Then that's a grip. Hughes 197 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 1: was going to get a seven hundred fifty thousand dollar 198 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:29,440 Speaker 1: advance on the book. And there is no hues to 199 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:32,679 Speaker 1: get this. There's a fake es. It was most likely him. 200 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 1: Life magazine comes through with plans to publish serialized excerpts 201 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 1: um later as the story developed, So they kind of 202 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 1: check to Irving for two d and fifty thousand dollars 203 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:52,440 Speaker 1: in cash. Then Dell Publishing. Dell steps in. Dell Publishing 204 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:56,199 Speaker 1: steps in and gets the paperback publishing rights for four D. 205 00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 1: We we're gonna put it in the Remember the East, 206 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:05,080 Speaker 1: the spinner spinners in the supermarket. Okay. So Irving is 207 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:08,880 Speaker 1: married to this woman named Edith Summer. She's a German 208 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 1: born Swiss citizen. So Clifford Irving sends his wife Edith 209 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 1: to Switzerland with a forged passport to open an account 210 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 1: under the name Helga R. Hughes or H. R. Hughes. 211 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:26,960 Speaker 1: That's where they deposited the check from McGraw hill two 212 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 1: Hughes for seven They haven't written to H. R. Hughes. 213 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 1: That's brilliant. Don't forget that They insisted all communication, even 214 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 1: the financial stuff. So yeah, well don't worry, I'll take 215 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:41,600 Speaker 1: him the check. As long as the bank clears this, 216 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:45,320 Speaker 1: we're gold. Exactly. So, over a period of nine months, 217 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 1: his wife Edith, going under the name Helga, she would 218 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 1: fly to Geneva and take cash out of the fake 219 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:56,440 Speaker 1: Hughes account um while disguised in a Wigan sunglasses because 220 00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 1: of course, and then she'd fly back to Ebizza and 221 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 1: high the cash throughout the farmhouse that she and Irving 222 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 1: were sharing they lived in. So she they put it in, 223 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:08,960 Speaker 1: they're taking the cash out stash, and they went with 224 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 1: the mattress as the answer. Yes, it was like in 225 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 1: the walls, like they were replace a bathtub and it 226 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:17,720 Speaker 1: goes in the Okay, So Irving in his longtime friend 227 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 1: for a note, never hid money and something that can burn, 228 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:23,520 Speaker 1: just running that out there, exactly. They should have put 229 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 1: it like in like a cold storage into the house anyway, exactly. 230 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 1: So the reason why people buried money back. Irving and 231 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:34,720 Speaker 1: his longtime friend and fellow researcher, Richard suskind Um, they 232 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 1: did all the research necessary for the book, which is 233 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 1: to mean like kind of So they go to Palm Springs. 234 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 1: Irving runs into an old friend who's looking for help 235 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 1: to get his unpublished manuscript cleaned up. Writers. What's what's 236 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:54,320 Speaker 1: the manuscript? It's the memoirs of Noah Dietrich, who was 237 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 1: the right hand man of Howard Hughes for more than 238 00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:00,080 Speaker 1: thirty years. So his friends writing, you know, clean have 239 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 1: this manuscript for Noah. Right, Dietrich was a certified public 240 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 1: accountant um and he was called upon to assist Howard 241 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 1: Hughes when he was just nineteen years old and had 242 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:12,480 Speaker 1: inherited Hughes Tool Company upon the death of his parents. 243 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 1: So he's like both his smithers and his like yes exactly, 244 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 1: like he's yeah, and so here he's written his memoirs 245 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:23,360 Speaker 1: and it's going to be this fascinating thing. So the 246 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 1: buddy of Clifford Irving is like, hey, can you, you know, 247 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: as as people do to writers, can you take a 248 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 1: pass with this and see Clifford copies Noah's manuscript for 249 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 1: use in his own book. He did so. Then Irving 250 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:43,720 Speaker 1: and Sessken they I published it first, and whoever crosses 251 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:46,840 Speaker 1: the finish life first. Irving and Sesskin they start putting 252 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:48,920 Speaker 1: the book together. They realized it would make a much 253 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 1: better autobiography than a bio, So Irving forges a note 254 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 1: from Hughes giving approval for the change. Yeah, I'll go 255 00:15:56,560 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: stright the autobiography now. So now we have this auto 256 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 1: biography of Howard Hughes coming out. This makes the project 257 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 1: even bigger. When we come back from you, I'm gonna 258 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:08,920 Speaker 1: tell you how this whole pack of lies gets molded 259 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 1: into an actual book. Yes, okay, we're back, good ads, right, juicy, juicy, 260 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 1: firm ats delicious. So in the air we just huff, 261 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 1: Oh that's nice. Okay. So we're talking about Clifford Irving 262 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 1: and his friend Richard Seskin working on an unauthorized and 263 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 1: often fabricated autobiography of Howard Hughes. This is what Clifford 264 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 1: Irving said. We'd sit there with a tape recorder and 265 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 1: a mountain of notes and documents, and literally I would 266 00:16:57,560 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 1: say do you want to be me today or do 267 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 1: you want to be how word? And then we'd start recording, 268 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:04,440 Speaker 1: going back and forth, stopping often to check on facts. 269 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:08,720 Speaker 1: So they're making these recordings, were making fake recordings to 270 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 1: document the story they're lying about. It all comes together, so, 271 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 1: according to Irving, He said he interviewed Howard Hughes in Mexico, 272 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 1: Los Angeles, Puerto Rico, Florida, and the Bahamas, and everything 273 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 1: was arranged by Howard Hughes. He went overboard in compiling 274 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 1: the details of these supposed meetings. Um. He said that 275 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 1: he wrote a note from Hughes to himself saying, Uh, 276 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 1: you know, let's meet in the Bahamas. You're so handsome 277 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 1: and you're a great writer, and I want to be 278 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 1: like you. Let's meet in the Bahamas. Um. So then 279 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:48,119 Speaker 1: he makes these notes that like, oh, all the flights 280 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:50,439 Speaker 1: were booked for travel on those dates, I can't get it. 281 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:54,399 Speaker 1: Let's go to Ohaka, Mexico instead. Okay, right, Howard, that 282 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:57,080 Speaker 1: sounds cool, Like he's writing these back and forth notes 283 00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:00,400 Speaker 1: like talking to himself. And he went, so he does 284 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 1: go to Ohaka, Mexico. He goes with his lover at 285 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:11,159 Speaker 1: the time, singer and Danish baroness Nina van Pollint. Right, 286 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:13,719 Speaker 1: what happened to fake Helga? Fake Helga is sitting at 287 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 1: home and he pizza. Yeah, so he's stepping out, um 288 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:25,159 Speaker 1: and using this is like this, you know, let's go 289 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 1: to Ohaka. Yeah. I recognized the types. So Clifford. He 290 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:31,880 Speaker 1: goes so far as to create a story in the 291 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:35,160 Speaker 1: introduction of the book about how shocked he was that 292 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:38,119 Speaker 1: Howard Hughes wanted him to ghost write his life story. 293 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:41,879 Speaker 1: This is what he said. I speculated for a while 294 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:45,400 Speaker 1: if this could be a practical joke. Hughes said, you're 295 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:49,359 Speaker 1: an outsider of a sort a kind of cultivated maverick, 296 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 1: a selfish son of a bitch. I have to like 297 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:54,679 Speaker 1: any man who goes his own way, as long as 298 00:18:54,720 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 1: he doesn't step on my toes. Right, there's a weird 299 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:06,439 Speaker 1: weird Yeah. He gets really good at making this so 300 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 1: and he didn't throw any like weird stuff like and 301 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:14,400 Speaker 1: you're such a great dancer. Remember that time where my 302 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 1: story the rhythm is in him so. Irving said that 303 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 1: Hughes advised him not to trust the publishers, and that 304 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:24,399 Speaker 1: he pointedly instructed him to always be present in the 305 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 1: room when they go over the manuscripts, like you have 306 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 1: to be watching everything. I don't know Howard Hughes told 307 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:32,239 Speaker 1: me to do it, and it sounds very he was like, 308 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:34,960 Speaker 1: this is the quote that Irving made up. He said 309 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 1: that Hughes said, don't go to their offices You'll go 310 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:40,440 Speaker 1: out to take a leak and they'll have two hundred 311 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:43,399 Speaker 1: pages xerox before you zip up your fly. People are 312 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 1: so tangled up and lies, spouting lies day in and 313 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 1: day out to themselves and to their friends and their 314 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:51,720 Speaker 1: dear children, their dear children who are going to grow 315 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 1: up and be the same fountains a crap. It's great, Like, 316 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:59,720 Speaker 1: it's very how I got a lot of quotes in 317 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 1: this Oh, do you know that the Hell's Angels get 318 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 1: their name from his movie Hell's Angels. I mean, like, 319 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:07,439 Speaker 1: the guy has so many connections for the culture you 320 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 1: just don't even know about exactly right. So the book 321 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:17,520 Speaker 1: revealed jings about Howard He's the cook, never before known 322 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:21,680 Speaker 1: to the public, and that's because they were lies exactly so. 323 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 1: Irving said that Hughes flew secret combat missions with the 324 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 1: R A F during World War Two. Once again, could 325 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 1: believe believable. He was a pilot and he was Hughes 326 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 1: paid visits to Albert Schweitzer in Africa. Okay, now we're 327 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:39,960 Speaker 1: bordering on. He said that he's befriended Hemingway in Cuba. Okay, 328 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:42,120 Speaker 1: is just getting to get a little bit out there. 329 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:45,639 Speaker 1: He said that Hughes tried to free himself from quote 330 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:48,960 Speaker 1: the bondage of money and power by squatting by the 331 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:54,439 Speaker 1: Ganges disguise as a beggar. Yeah, come on, but people, 332 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:57,639 Speaker 1: you know, writers always going too far. There was another 333 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 1: false morsel included in the book. It was a reference 334 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:03,439 Speaker 1: to money paid to the family member of a politician. 335 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:06,880 Speaker 1: It hit a little close to home, and it contributed 336 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 1: to that politician's downfall, although not in the way you'd think. Okay, 337 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 1: So in the book he said that Howard Hughes gave 338 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:16,440 Speaker 1: money to a politician, and that was the lie. Well, 339 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 1: it's not that much the lie. Okay. Here's what happened. 340 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:22,919 Speaker 1: Irving and Suskin found out about a true story that 341 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:26,200 Speaker 1: Howard Hughes loaned two and five thousand dollars to Francis 342 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:30,880 Speaker 1: Donald Nixon. Richard Nixon's brother. Francis had asked for help 343 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:33,919 Speaker 1: to bail out a restaurant chain called Nixons that was 344 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 1: popular in the nineteen fifties but went bankrupt in sixty one. 345 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:40,920 Speaker 1: I've well, Nixon's was doing really well, and then Bob's 346 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 1: Big Boy came down. And Bob's big Boy, the old 347 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:48,440 Speaker 1: big Boy, had car hops on roller skates. You can't 348 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:51,359 Speaker 1: top that. I'm sorry. Everyone's just like okay. I can 349 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:54,399 Speaker 1: go to Nixon's bar ring or I can watch someone 350 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:56,400 Speaker 1: try and carry me some French fries in a shake 351 00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 1: and take a digger in the parking lot. Where am 352 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 1: I going to go? I'm ticking the digger every time. So, 353 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 1: like the Hughes, cash just couldn't save the Nixon's restaurant chain. 354 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:08,399 Speaker 1: So at the time, Richard Dixon was vice president in 355 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 1: the Eisenhower administration. UM. He later campaigns for the presidency. 356 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:16,359 Speaker 1: I love, by the way president and vice president brothers. 357 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,679 Speaker 1: They are always a mess. Oh it doesn't matter. You know, 358 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:25,360 Speaker 1: we're talking Clinton's brother, Bush's brother, Reagan's brother, Carter's brother 359 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 1: brother Billy Carter was anyway, But I didn't know Nixon 360 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:33,560 Speaker 1: had an idiot brother. This is amazing, exactly So UM. 361 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:37,240 Speaker 1: Later Nixon's campaigning for the presidency. Right, the press gets 362 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:40,360 Speaker 1: wind of the loan and it looks like Hugh's had 363 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:42,920 Speaker 1: the Nixons in his poet. This is a new checker scandal. 364 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 1: Everyone runs with it, and then it winds up becoming 365 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 1: this sort of joke. Nixon's at a campaign stopped in 366 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:50,680 Speaker 1: San Francisco and he's asked to pose in front of 367 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:53,960 Speaker 1: a banner with Chinese characters on it, and then someone 368 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:56,919 Speaker 1: later told him that the characters translated to but what 369 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 1: about the Hughes Loan. And then later that day they're 370 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:04,960 Speaker 1: having lunch and it turns out that every fortune cookie 371 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:07,880 Speaker 1: that was served had been specially made with fortunes inside 372 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:10,159 Speaker 1: that Red asked him about the Hughes loan. Are you 373 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,359 Speaker 1: for real? Definitely for real. We probably went to that 374 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 1: Golden Gate fortune cookie fact, which is amazing. You can 375 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:19,639 Speaker 1: have anything. Yeah, but also I want to know the 376 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 1: Chinese character for Hughes Loan, like exactly. So um, it 377 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 1: was revealed during the Watergate case that Nixon had the 378 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:31,639 Speaker 1: Secret Service wire tapped his brother and he wanted to 379 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:34,480 Speaker 1: make sure. Yeah, he didn't want to get any more 380 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 1: questionable business dealings screw it up. During all this drama, 381 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:44,600 Speaker 1: Irving and Sesskin are writing their fake autobiography exactly, and 382 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:48,359 Speaker 1: they're mixing fact and fiction pretty freely. So they take 383 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:50,960 Speaker 1: the loan story and then they sprinkle lies on top. 384 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:55,840 Speaker 1: So Irving said that Hughes told him I remember saying that, Dick, 385 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:58,679 Speaker 1: that's not enough. Let's double it. So they make it 386 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 1: out like, no, it wasn't two and five, it was 387 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 1: like four dollars, like much bigger than everyone thought. So 388 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,639 Speaker 1: a source at McGraw hill saw this like, oh crap, 389 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 1: Like it was a way bigger loan than everyone thought. 390 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:14,239 Speaker 1: He gives a copy to UM newspaper journalists. Yeah. Like 391 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 1: he gives a copy of the still still secret book 392 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:21,640 Speaker 1: to the FBI. Oh way worse. Yeah, the FBI they 393 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 1: turn around and they give it to the White House, 394 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:30,240 Speaker 1: and they provided reports of all these alleged interactions between 395 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:35,280 Speaker 1: Irving and Hughes. So UM worried about the what other 396 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:39,960 Speaker 1: information could be divulged, and under the belief that Irving 397 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:42,640 Speaker 1: is a Democrat, which is like all that whole like, 398 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:44,639 Speaker 1: oh yeah, this is Nixon. Everybody who's an enemy as 399 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 1: a Democrat student exactly. So the White House they conspire 400 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 1: to break in to the Democratic National Committee Headquarders in 401 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:56,840 Speaker 1: the Watergate building. The reason why he wants to do 402 00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 1: water Gate is to find out about this lie. Part 403 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:01,719 Speaker 1: of it as an attempt to learn just how much 404 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:04,560 Speaker 1: the Democrats knew about the Hughes can Oh my god, 405 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:10,119 Speaker 1: brains are coming out of my ears. Hr Halderman, another 406 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 1: Hr to Nixon John Dene White House counsel. They disclosed 407 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:20,879 Speaker 1: in their respective memoirs that the concerns that the Nixon 408 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 1: administration had that Irving's book would reveal undisclosed financial ties 409 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:31,920 Speaker 1: between Nixon and Hughes. That's part of it. December seven one, 410 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,560 Speaker 1: McGraw hill they make a public announcement that they will 411 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 1: be publishing the autobiography of Howard Hughes. So like he's 412 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 1: going to find out, right, So here we have Deetris 413 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:47,119 Speaker 1: going to find out the assistant, like everything's coming. So 414 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:51,040 Speaker 1: we have like Watergate thanks to this whole thing. So 415 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:55,200 Speaker 1: McGraw hill, we're publishing this. Everyone's pants fall down. One 416 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:59,440 Speaker 1: day later after they announced it December eight one, then 417 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 1: the Hughes Tool Company denies the authenticity of the book 418 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:08,879 Speaker 1: and demands that it not be Now McGraw hill in 419 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:14,000 Speaker 1: life they stand by Irving's claim that the book is legitimate. Oh, 420 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:16,920 Speaker 1: they go hard on this. Hughes had been out of 421 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,960 Speaker 1: the public eye for so long, and that the journalists 422 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:22,960 Speaker 1: start to believe maybe he did agree, or or maybe 423 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,359 Speaker 1: they got those whiffs of greed. They come along and 424 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:29,639 Speaker 1: there's like all these journalists think he'd agreed, but maybe 425 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 1: he changed his mind for fear of how this would 426 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 1: impact his empire whatever, none of the time. Life journalist 427 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:40,480 Speaker 1: Frank McCulloch was the last person to interview Hughes fourteen 428 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:43,080 Speaker 1: years prior to this. He gets a call from Hughes 429 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 1: saying that he had he interviewed him like Spruce Goose era, 430 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,120 Speaker 1: like late fifty exactly. So he gets a call from 431 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:52,359 Speaker 1: Hughes saying that he's never heard of Clifford Irving, never 432 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:54,959 Speaker 1: communicated with him about anything, let alone. It tell all 433 00:26:55,000 --> 00:27:01,680 Speaker 1: biography McCullough. It turns around an interview, He interviews Irving, 434 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,560 Speaker 1: reads the manuscript and determines that Irving is telling the 435 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,679 Speaker 1: truth and the call was from an impostor what No, 436 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:13,720 Speaker 1: the call was actually from Howard Hughes trying his best 437 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 1: to be like you guys and the only person who 438 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:17,920 Speaker 1: can Basically, they say, oh yeah, I can authenticate him. 439 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 1: He's like, it's not him. Irving pulls the wool over 440 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:26,919 Speaker 1: his eyes, amazing Howard his voice wasn't, I guess so 441 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 1: they figured. January seven, two, just before publication of the 442 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:37,160 Speaker 1: fake autobiography, Hughes did the unthinkable and held an incredibly 443 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:42,040 Speaker 1: rare televised press conference to denounce the book. Yes, my dude, 444 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:43,240 Speaker 1: go out there and be like, let's get all the 445 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:45,600 Speaker 1: liars in one room. If not, turn the camera on me, 446 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:52,159 Speaker 1: I'll point him out. Zaren no closure. I want you 447 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:57,439 Speaker 1: to picture. You're an NBC TV producer sitting in a 448 00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 1: conference room labeled Studio three at the Sheraton Universal Hotel 449 00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:06,040 Speaker 1: in Hollywood, located on the grounds of the Universal Film Studio. 450 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,679 Speaker 1: Seven journalists are gathered there to ask questions of the 451 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 1: reclusive Howard Hughes. NBC is recording the whole thing for TV, 452 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 1: and we'll be sharing the footage with the other two 453 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:22,520 Speaker 1: major networks at the time, CDs and ABC. The reporters 454 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,439 Speaker 1: chat away while waiting for the press conference to begin. 455 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:28,800 Speaker 1: A hush falls over the room. As a conference phone 456 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:31,920 Speaker 1: at the center of the table rings. You reach out 457 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:35,000 Speaker 1: and click the speaker button. There's a crack along the line. 458 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:38,680 Speaker 1: Howard Hughes is calling in from the ninth floor. He'd 459 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 1: taken over the entire floor of the Grand Britannia Hotel 460 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:47,000 Speaker 1: in Paradise Island, Nassau, Bahamas. He's been living there since 461 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 1: leaving Las Vegas. A little over a year earlier. For 462 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 1: three hours, the sixty six year old eccentric billionaire candidly 463 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 1: answered questions and gave far arranging thoughts about his business empire, 464 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:04,320 Speaker 1: his health, fingernail clippers, imitation, leather shoes, and the construction 465 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 1: of airplanes. Seventy one Pittsburgh pirates. This is like a 466 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:12,840 Speaker 1: Fidel Castro speech. He tells them, you know what, I'm 467 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:16,720 Speaker 1: really healthy. Don't worry about me. I'm six ft three 468 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:20,160 Speaker 1: and three quarters and I weigh somewhere between a hundred 469 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 1: and forty and a hundred and fifty pounds. How is 470 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:28,880 Speaker 1: that healthy? That's not healthy. So he denied that his 471 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 1: fingernails and toe nails were eight inches long, and that 472 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:34,480 Speaker 1: his hair went all the way down his back. He said, 473 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 1: not true. Um, the reporters had agreed ahead of time 474 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:42,240 Speaker 1: among themselves not to ask anything about his private life. 475 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 1: So the intention was to first make sure they know 476 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 1: it's Hughes himself on the call. I wonder how the 477 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 1: authentic Well, they had a series of questions they were 478 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 1: going to ask him, and some of them he didn't 479 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:53,760 Speaker 1: quite get right. But then when they would press him, 480 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,960 Speaker 1: he was able to give such technical details about things 481 00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:00,360 Speaker 1: that it had to be helped inventions and things actually 482 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 1: and the aerospace stuff. Yeah, like he and he, he 483 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 1: just had a way of explaining it. There's no one 484 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:07,200 Speaker 1: else on this year. If you could do that, you 485 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:09,960 Speaker 1: get to a certain points, like only Howard, right, So 486 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 1: they verify it. They asked him about his business empire, 487 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:14,960 Speaker 1: and then they want to get his take on this 488 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:20,760 Speaker 1: supposed autobiography. So McGraw hill still swearing they have proof 489 00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 1: of uses cooperation, he begs to diver. He says, quote, 490 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:28,479 Speaker 1: I only wish I were still in the movie business, 491 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:31,440 Speaker 1: because I don't remember any script as wild or as 492 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 1: stretching the imagination as this yarn has turned out to be. 493 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:38,240 Speaker 1: I'm not talking about the biography itself, because I've never 494 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 1: read it. I don't know what's in it. But this 495 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:44,280 Speaker 1: episode is so fantastic that it taxes your imagination to 496 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:48,280 Speaker 1: believe that a thing like this could happen. Like, I 497 00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 1: wish I could make a movie about this mess. He 498 00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,560 Speaker 1: goes on. He questions how the paper trail with the 499 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:57,200 Speaker 1: check to him hadn't been able to He's like, come on, 500 00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:01,480 Speaker 1: we have McGraw hill said that they had the anceled check. Um, 501 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 1: but they wouldn't share it with the public yet or representative. 502 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,880 Speaker 1: So the interview comes out and it's fantast like the 503 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 1: New York Times has like the whole full transcript of it. 504 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:14,560 Speaker 1: And then because there was a Times reporter there, then 505 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:16,840 Speaker 1: they have an article that just kind of summarizes and 506 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 1: gives contact. They have a thing about how much the 507 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:24,600 Speaker 1: call cost um because it was long distance and it 508 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:27,760 Speaker 1: was like in those days it was like sixty dollars 509 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 1: and has had a little thing like this thing costs 510 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 1: three but which I did the calculations, and today it's 511 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 1: like a couple of thousands. Yeah, and there it hasn't 512 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:38,400 Speaker 1: been decided who's going to pay for the call yet, 513 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:40,800 Speaker 1: Like it was an interesting little thing in the corner. 514 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:44,080 Speaker 1: This this call cost as much as your mortgage basically 515 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:47,960 Speaker 1: um and so uh. This is the statement that McGraw 516 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:51,840 Speaker 1: hill gave after the interview came out. McGraw hill in 517 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 1: Life reaffirmed that they possessed the authentic autobiography of Howard 518 00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:59,440 Speaker 1: Hughes and they planned to publish it as was originally 519 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:03,880 Speaker 1: announced in December seven. It is alleged that Howard Hughes 520 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:07,320 Speaker 1: made a telephone call Friday repudiating this material and the 521 00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:10,600 Speaker 1: man who worked on it with him, Clifford Irving, we 522 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:14,760 Speaker 1: cannot accept this. Oh, like their lawyers are biting on 523 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:18,479 Speaker 1: such a costly fight. They're like, well, we're gonna make 524 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:21,280 Speaker 1: so much and you're gonna give it to these guys 525 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,320 Speaker 1: in the world. Exactly what are you thinking? They go 526 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:27,680 Speaker 1: on to list all the handwriting experts, all the documentation 527 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,360 Speaker 1: that they had that confirmed that Irving had been working 528 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:32,920 Speaker 1: with the real Howard Hughes even though they had the 529 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 1: real Howard. This is how they finished up their statement. 530 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:40,800 Speaker 1: McGraw hill in life. Thus have substantial written and verified 531 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:45,920 Speaker 1: documentation authorizing this biograph autobiography. Finally, we have a completely 532 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:48,920 Speaker 1: convincing manuscript. No one who has read it can doubt 533 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:52,200 Speaker 1: its integrity or upon reading it, that of Clifford Irving. 534 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:54,560 Speaker 1: I got to give out to man Clifford Irving, because 535 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:56,880 Speaker 1: as a writer, to have everyone take your back like 536 00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:00,360 Speaker 1: this is such a rare moments. Dude, look you broth, 537 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:05,480 Speaker 1: they cut bait like they're okay. So then Irving says 538 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:08,480 Speaker 1: the man on the phone imposter, He's like that guy, 539 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:13,040 Speaker 1: not Howard Hughes. And also the huts of this guys, 540 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:14,800 Speaker 1: the richest man of the road go he's a liar. 541 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:17,520 Speaker 1: You gotta listen to me. He was impressive. Do you 542 00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:21,080 Speaker 1: remember Noah Dietrich, Yeah, totally assistant. This may assistant that 543 00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:24,680 Speaker 1: he ripped off. Dietrich came forward and vouched for Irving. 544 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:28,760 Speaker 1: What I was like, this is where the truth comes out. 545 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:33,000 Speaker 1: He said that Clifford's book read is authentic, and maybe 546 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:38,800 Speaker 1: because parts of his book. However, when he heard the 547 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:42,080 Speaker 1: telephone interview between Hughes and the Bahamas and the reporters 548 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:44,920 Speaker 1: in l A, this is what he said. That was 549 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:47,760 Speaker 1: Howard Hughes's voice. There's no question about it. A lot 550 00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:51,040 Speaker 1: of people can imitate voices, but his mannerisms of speech, 551 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:55,240 Speaker 1: his halting manner, were unmistakable. Then he goes on to say, 552 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:57,920 Speaker 1: there are several theories about the book. The one I 553 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:00,920 Speaker 1: leaned to is that Hughes got himself appt that he 554 00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:02,760 Speaker 1: was a party to the writing of the book, and 555 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:05,480 Speaker 1: after the manuscript went to McGraw hill and he signed 556 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:08,840 Speaker 1: the contract. The lawyers foresaw trouble, so they've got to 557 00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 1: get him out of this. One theory is that one 558 00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:15,640 Speaker 1: of those Mormon boys that's apparently the Hughes palace guard 559 00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:19,640 Speaker 1: of these aids who would take care of Yes, we'll 560 00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:21,759 Speaker 1: take the rap and say he signed the checks. The 561 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:25,400 Speaker 1: publishers say we're paid, but Hughes denies. That's a ferry theory. 562 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:27,960 Speaker 1: But these reports about the money going into a Swiss 563 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 1: bank account, I don't understand. Hughes knew enough about taxes. 564 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:33,760 Speaker 1: I taught him enough about that. Why would he deposit 565 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:35,680 Speaker 1: the money in a Swiss bank? So that doesn't make 566 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:38,680 Speaker 1: any sense. What if it's not him? That notion for 567 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:41,880 Speaker 1: a second. Irving does not budge from his story. I 568 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:44,120 Speaker 1: like it, though, I got to give him respect. It 569 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:47,520 Speaker 1: keeps spinning out when we come back, tell you how 570 00:34:47,560 --> 00:35:11,040 Speaker 1: far out it goes? All right, Saron, this story is 571 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:15,120 Speaker 1: so insane, Like we have covered Watergate and I momentarily 572 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:19,719 Speaker 1: forgot about that. I guess I'm so amanded. So we 573 00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:23,720 Speaker 1: have this scandal brewing. Some people they think that Howard 574 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:28,000 Speaker 1: Hughes authorized this is it an impostor? Is Irving full 575 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:31,920 Speaker 1: of it? Clifford Irving, he goes on sixty minutes to 576 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:39,200 Speaker 1: be interviewed by Yes, you know it's good, Oh God, 577 00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:41,880 Speaker 1: Mike Wallace. He's going to bring the tongs and hot hammers. 578 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:45,880 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, So he asks about Irving's meetings with Hughes 579 00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:49,640 Speaker 1: and if there were any witnesses. Irving launches into this 580 00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:54,760 Speaker 1: crazy detailed account about all their back and forth. Um. 581 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:58,360 Speaker 1: He talks about meeting with Hughes, meeting with Richard Suskin. 582 00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:02,360 Speaker 1: He gives the impression that he cataloged every single detail 583 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:07,200 Speaker 1: in minutia that he couldn't be lying. Well, this is 584 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:09,319 Speaker 1: always an issue. Like in the American legal system, they 585 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:12,240 Speaker 1: say document everything, and I can sit there and fabricat 586 00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:14,560 Speaker 1: a bunch of documented in court apparently as long as 587 00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:17,960 Speaker 1: I have it all like documented in detail, and you're like, oh, 588 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:22,239 Speaker 1: this is accurate anyway. Mike Wallace later says, you know what, 589 00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:24,480 Speaker 1: I believe Irving, he's telling the truth. This is a 590 00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:27,920 Speaker 1: problem with the American system. The technicians and the cameraman 591 00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:32,040 Speaker 1: they knew he was lying, actually looking at what's happening, 592 00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:34,040 Speaker 1: and nothing about how this is good for I am 593 00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:36,840 Speaker 1: so disappointed in Mike Wallace. Do you have no idea? 594 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:40,640 Speaker 1: I'm over here disappointing Mike Wallace. So, since the majority 595 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:44,560 Speaker 1: of the scam took place in the mail Postal inspectors 596 00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:49,640 Speaker 1: opened an investigation this is what Inspector John Tarpi told 597 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:53,960 Speaker 1: the Toledo Blade Clote. We tried to approach it from 598 00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:56,760 Speaker 1: the other side. We wanted to see whether someone else 599 00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:59,160 Speaker 1: could have forged the documents, and we picked Irving to 600 00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:02,400 Speaker 1: begin with. The writing was different from the Huges documents, 601 00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:06,359 Speaker 1: but close examination shows that some characteristics and habits were 602 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:09,600 Speaker 1: the same. The teas were crossed the same, the eyes 603 00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:12,680 Speaker 1: were dotted the same, and some letters were broken up alike. 604 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:15,640 Speaker 1: We took the samples to our own handwriting experts, who 605 00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:18,520 Speaker 1: studied them for two days and confirmed that they were 606 00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:22,600 Speaker 1: the same. Okay, I mean maybe I'm just like really 607 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:26,960 Speaker 1: like suspicious of all things, but I would question everything, 608 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:28,759 Speaker 1: and you've got to prove it at to a certain point. 609 00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:30,799 Speaker 1: And I would start with the standpoint that someone could 610 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:33,279 Speaker 1: pull this off, not like I don't know, could the 611 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,960 Speaker 1: hand can and can I prove that they did, and 612 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:39,759 Speaker 1: the handwriting expert things, But it's always the question of 613 00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:41,960 Speaker 1: could someone have done this. No, let's not ask that 614 00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:45,399 Speaker 1: question because now it's up to your standard. Assume they did, 615 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:48,239 Speaker 1: and now ask the question. Here's here's why I don't 616 00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:50,719 Speaker 1: give a lot of credit to handwriting experts. I'm going 617 00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:53,200 Speaker 1: to I'm gonna make a huge confession right now the 618 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:55,200 Speaker 1: ring of experts. Yes, but do you want to hear 619 00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:58,640 Speaker 1: my huge confession. When my brother was in third grade, 620 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:02,640 Speaker 1: he didn't do his homework and everyone would please, Travis, 621 00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:05,319 Speaker 1: do your homework, and he just he didn't care. And 622 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:09,000 Speaker 1: it made me upset so nervous because started doing his 623 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:13,480 Speaker 1: homework and he's left handed. He's left handed, so I 624 00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:15,640 Speaker 1: would do the home I would do his network in 625 00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:18,440 Speaker 1: my left hand, and it looks like his handwriting. And 626 00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:20,480 Speaker 1: no one was the wiser hands and stuff. And if 627 00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:22,120 Speaker 1: you get those certain letters right, and this is what 628 00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:24,880 Speaker 1: I'm talking about, but they have to no one was 629 00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:28,279 Speaker 1: the wiser. You're welcome, Travis. Travis got lucky. But I'm 630 00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:30,200 Speaker 1: talking about like people have got to believe that there's 631 00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 1: someone like you out there. I always believe there's someone 632 00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:34,000 Speaker 1: like you out there. I'm like, there's somebody who can 633 00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:36,680 Speaker 1: pull this off, would right with their left hand. People 634 00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:39,239 Speaker 1: always like, no, this looks like a left hander did this. 635 00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:41,880 Speaker 1: I always wonder like when they do like as a 636 00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:43,960 Speaker 1: as an aside, which is all I ever do, is 637 00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:47,879 Speaker 1: a series of asides. When they have like, um, and 638 00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:49,200 Speaker 1: I don't know if they do it in real life, 639 00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:50,719 Speaker 1: but on TV and they I don't know, and I 640 00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,799 Speaker 1: don't watch TV when they have suspect lineups and they 641 00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:57,160 Speaker 1: make they make a suspect say it like oh yeah, 642 00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:00,359 Speaker 1: why in the world. If I'm in your real yeah, 643 00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:03,680 Speaker 1: I'd be like, hey, it's me. Put the money in 644 00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:10,919 Speaker 1: the bag. Put okay, can't be heard that never mind. 645 00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:13,080 Speaker 1: And we got all these documents that she gave us, 646 00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:17,040 Speaker 1: so okay. So this is what Irving had to say 647 00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:22,839 Speaker 1: about all this. About the hand, He said, Hughes and 648 00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:25,600 Speaker 1: I had the same penmanship. It was just another bit 649 00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:29,640 Speaker 1: of wonderful luck that I had. I'm saying that sarcastically. 650 00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:32,719 Speaker 1: He said, if I hadn't had so much wonderful luck, 651 00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:34,640 Speaker 1: I would have been stopped somewhere along the line at 652 00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:37,040 Speaker 1: an early stage and and not had to go through 653 00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:42,759 Speaker 1: at all. So God, the hoax comes undone. I mean, 654 00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:46,839 Speaker 1: we're a well made hoax. It all starts to fall 655 00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:51,320 Speaker 1: apart because of the Swiss bank account. Who I was wondering, okay, 656 00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:53,479 Speaker 1: who would you get the straw that pulled the right one? 657 00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:56,600 Speaker 1: The Swiss authorities they get wind of this account, they 658 00:39:56,640 --> 00:39:58,160 Speaker 1: look into it. I thought it might be the girlfriend 659 00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:00,239 Speaker 1: who traveled to Mexico with him, because they you give 660 00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:01,360 Speaker 1: me like going I get a little more money to 661 00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:05,600 Speaker 1: the truth. Yeah, so they The Swiss discovered that the 662 00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:10,000 Speaker 1: person making the withdrawals was Irving's wife. Games over, Irving 663 00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:13,320 Speaker 1: confesses the hoax to his lawyer. This is what he said. 664 00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:17,239 Speaker 1: The relief of confession was sweet, beyond almost anything I'd 665 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:20,319 Speaker 1: ever known. By the end, there was a deep interior 666 00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:24,480 Speaker 1: gloom that had settled, and I couldn't show it. I 667 00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:27,600 Speaker 1: had to keep playing the game. When everything finally began 668 00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:30,319 Speaker 1: to unravel and it was fairly clear that we would 669 00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:32,839 Speaker 1: be found out if we hadn't already been found out, 670 00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:36,480 Speaker 1: a number of newspapers commented on how lighthearted I seemed 671 00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:38,319 Speaker 1: to be in the face of this. Of course, I 672 00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:40,640 Speaker 1: was laughing. I was rid of the burden. I didn't 673 00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:43,200 Speaker 1: have to lie anymore. I was laughing because it was over. 674 00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:46,359 Speaker 1: As the hoax unraveled, a number of people said to me, 675 00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:49,120 Speaker 1: how could you lie to me? My answer was, how 676 00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:51,560 Speaker 1: could I tell you the truth? If if you had 677 00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:53,399 Speaker 1: known that this whole thing was pie in the sky, 678 00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:57,520 Speaker 1: you might have given it away. Thanks, Yeah, right, I 679 00:40:57,560 --> 00:40:59,840 Speaker 1: love literally the truth will set you free, is essentially 680 00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:04,880 Speaker 1: he said, like everything boils down. I got so quotables. 681 00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:11,080 Speaker 1: So four hundred thousand copies of the now debunked autobiography 682 00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:15,719 Speaker 1: of Howard Hughes get pulped. They didn't even go to stores, 683 00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:19,040 Speaker 1: never went to storage. I was wondering. Now. Irving didn't 684 00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:20,960 Speaker 1: think that he was ever going to wind up in prison. 685 00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:25,840 Speaker 1: But he did. But he he's calling to prison. He 686 00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:28,640 Speaker 1: viewsed the entire thing as this elaborate joke. This is 687 00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:31,000 Speaker 1: what he said about his sentence. I don't see it 688 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:35,560 Speaker 1: as a crime worthy of society's customary revenge. Had I succeeded, 689 00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:37,600 Speaker 1: no one would have been hurt. If I had had 690 00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:39,279 Speaker 1: to do it all over again, I would do it 691 00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:43,000 Speaker 1: all with one difference. I would succeed. That's the way 692 00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:45,439 Speaker 1: to do. You're gonna do it all over again. That's 693 00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:49,080 Speaker 1: the one thing to change. June seventy two. June two, 694 00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:52,880 Speaker 1: he his wife and then suskined his research partner. They 695 00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:56,799 Speaker 1: all get sentenced. Irving he gets two and a half 696 00:41:56,880 --> 00:42:00,960 Speaker 1: years for conspiracy to fraud, forgery, using the Federal mail 697 00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:05,480 Speaker 1: to defraud, and perjury. Mrs Irving she gets two years, 698 00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:08,400 Speaker 1: but that was suspended and she served only two months 699 00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:11,480 Speaker 1: in Nassau County jail and then sixteen months out of 700 00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:14,879 Speaker 1: a two year sentence for larsery and forgery in Switzerland. 701 00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:19,799 Speaker 1: And Suskin got six months prison and he only served five. 702 00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:24,279 Speaker 1: So Irving he also retrieved most of the money that 703 00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:27,160 Speaker 1: was hidden in the Beazza farmhouse and he gave it 704 00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:29,120 Speaker 1: back to McGraw hill, but a lot of that also 705 00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:32,960 Speaker 1: then went to legal fees. He had the I R 706 00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:35,520 Speaker 1: S after him. Of course, of course, this is what 707 00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:37,920 Speaker 1: he said. They told me they were taxing me for 708 00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:40,480 Speaker 1: what I had taken from McGraw hill in nineteen seventy one, 709 00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:43,719 Speaker 1: which came to about seven fifty thousand dollars and which 710 00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:45,799 Speaker 1: I had to give back, and that I could take 711 00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:49,000 Speaker 1: a deduction for nineteen seventy two. At that point I 712 00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:51,600 Speaker 1: was slated to work for federal prison Industries at twenty 713 00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:54,400 Speaker 1: one cents an hour. So he's like, basically, come get me. 714 00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:57,880 Speaker 1: I RS. Come after me. Bro. When you are a 715 00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:03,880 Speaker 1: ridiculous criminal and you're facing prison, remember the Ridiculous Crime Code, 716 00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:06,240 Speaker 1: the motto if you will, you must write a book. 717 00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:12,080 Speaker 1: So Clifford Irving, he joins our Patheon of Words. Smith 718 00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:14,279 Speaker 1: in Criminals the best way to a book, and he 719 00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:18,000 Speaker 1: writes a book called The Hoax, and he writes it 720 00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:21,640 Speaker 1: in between his indictment and his imprisonment. And it was 721 00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:24,759 Speaker 1: created with the permission of the U. S. Attorney so 722 00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:27,480 Speaker 1: that he could make some money him to get the 723 00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:30,480 Speaker 1: rest of So he said the book was quote the 724 00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:34,640 Speaker 1: definitive story. I wanted the Catharsis of confession. And I 725 00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:36,880 Speaker 1: was aided by the fact that the U. S. Attorney's 726 00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:39,520 Speaker 1: office said, you have made a complete confession to us, 727 00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:41,440 Speaker 1: and if your book differs from that, we will have 728 00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:46,480 Speaker 1: you for perjury. So okay, your books already written. He 729 00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:49,960 Speaker 1: declares bankruptcy, and then the I R. S said that 730 00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:52,400 Speaker 1: he was lying about that. So he takes him to court, 731 00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:56,200 Speaker 1: defends himself and wins. How could he be lying about bankruptcy? 732 00:43:57,080 --> 00:44:01,000 Speaker 1: How he declared it? Edith leaves him. Okay, I figured 733 00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:03,840 Speaker 1: that was coming, but it's you know why though, because 734 00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:05,600 Speaker 1: it came out in the papers that he was having 735 00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:08,720 Speaker 1: an affair with a scuba diving instructor named and Baxter. 736 00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:13,400 Speaker 1: And she's like, all right, all this other stuff, and 737 00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:17,960 Speaker 1: the instructor, excuse me, sir, me and Ke Gordon Lady 738 00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:21,200 Speaker 1: are gonna go get drinks. So you think that like 739 00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:25,920 Speaker 1: his jail time, the bankruptcy, the divorce, that would be 740 00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:28,319 Speaker 1: the most painful things in his life. Now he's a man, 741 00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:30,640 Speaker 1: it's gonna be some dumb stuff. He said that what 742 00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:33,520 Speaker 1: hurt him the most was losing the trust of his publisher. 743 00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:37,880 Speaker 1: There you go, He said, I had embarrassed many publishers 744 00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:40,840 Speaker 1: who believed in the legitimacy of this book. One novel 745 00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:43,439 Speaker 1: was rejected twenty four times. It was probably the best 746 00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:47,399 Speaker 1: book I've ever written. I can't sell anything now. So 747 00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:50,880 Speaker 1: why did he do this? Not for the money, as 748 00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:53,840 Speaker 1: Howard Hughes had speculated at the three hour press conference. 749 00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:55,719 Speaker 1: He was like, he must be just trying to make 750 00:44:55,760 --> 00:45:00,279 Speaker 1: a buck. I'm thinking he wants it for the aim 751 00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:03,200 Speaker 1: and the return to fame. He said, he did it 752 00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:07,240 Speaker 1: for the adventure. Okay, quote, it's an interesting choice of words. 753 00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:09,759 Speaker 1: But yeah, I had just turned forty. I had done 754 00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:12,319 Speaker 1: adventurous things in my life. I don't think my life 755 00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:15,440 Speaker 1: was over, but maybe I felt slightly middle aged, although 756 00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:17,680 Speaker 1: I was still shocked when the hoax was exposed that 757 00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:22,799 Speaker 1: I was referred to as middle aged writer irving me. 758 00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:27,560 Speaker 1: But then I thought, maybe they've got it right, and 759 00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:30,279 Speaker 1: I didn't grasp that. So, like some guys go out 760 00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:33,480 Speaker 1: and buy a sports car, he's like, giant, I'm going 761 00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:35,880 Speaker 1: to fake an autobiography of the richest man in the world, 762 00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:38,400 Speaker 1: because you know, I don't like convertible. He also he 763 00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:41,879 Speaker 1: said that he also did it kind of for love love. 764 00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:45,800 Speaker 1: He said that his research trips were affront for trips 765 00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:49,279 Speaker 1: with his lover Nina and polite the baroness. This is 766 00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:52,080 Speaker 1: what he said. When you talk about motive, it is 767 00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:54,560 Speaker 1: entirely possible that one of my motives for doing the 768 00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:56,400 Speaker 1: whole thing was to get away from home to be 769 00:45:56,480 --> 00:46:01,279 Speaker 1: with Nina. Yikes, Wow, sack bro this is this is 770 00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:04,359 Speaker 1: something else he said about the whole experience. We were 771 00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:08,880 Speaker 1: grown men playing games. Maybe maybe they were amoral or immoral, 772 00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:11,600 Speaker 1: but we didn't grasp that. I don't want to sound 773 00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:14,040 Speaker 1: like an innocent We knew we were doing something wrong, 774 00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:16,919 Speaker 1: but boy did we have fun doing it literally say 775 00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:21,759 Speaker 1: less exactly. There was another like fun bit of speculation 776 00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:25,080 Speaker 1: as far as motive goes, that came from Time magazine. 777 00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:29,400 Speaker 1: They reported that federal investigators were following a lead quote 778 00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:31,960 Speaker 1: that Irving may have needed money to pay off loan 779 00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:35,760 Speaker 1: sharks of the mafia family of Carlo Gambino. They drug 780 00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:39,080 Speaker 1: in the Gambino crime family. Oh my god, it wouldn't 781 00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:41,240 Speaker 1: be the seventies without at least one of the Five 782 00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:45,520 Speaker 1: families of New York, New Jersey. Exactly in the epigraph 783 00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:48,120 Speaker 1: to the hoax book that was made into the Richard 784 00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:51,719 Speaker 1: gear movie, this is what Irving said. You may look 785 00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:54,800 Speaker 1: for motive in an act, but only after the act 786 00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:58,600 Speaker 1: has been committed. An effect creates not only the search 787 00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:01,640 Speaker 1: for a cause, but the reality of the cause itself. 788 00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:05,120 Speaker 1: I must warn you, however, that the attempt to establish 789 00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:09,640 Speaker 1: relationships between acts and motives, effects and causes is one 790 00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:12,840 Speaker 1: of the most time wasting games ever invented by man. 791 00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:16,440 Speaker 1: And then he said that he was quoting twelfth century 792 00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:21,000 Speaker 1: philosopher gend Manches. And then he follows that up with actually, 793 00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:22,839 Speaker 1: I made him up. I was going to say that 794 00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:26,560 Speaker 1: person doesn't exist, and I totally disagree. Motives are everything. 795 00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:30,080 Speaker 1: It's not like some uncoupled train or we don't know 796 00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:33,440 Speaker 1: how this got here. He's incapable of telling the truth. 797 00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:38,719 Speaker 1: He The faked autobiography was never published. The original manuscript 798 00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:43,719 Speaker 1: is missing. Irving made a xerox copy in and then 799 00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:46,400 Speaker 1: he sold it with other hues memorabilia that he had 800 00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:49,200 Speaker 1: collected in all his research at an auction in Texas 801 00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:54,080 Speaker 1: to The winning bid was five dollars. I know, but 802 00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:56,879 Speaker 1: you can download it now. It is available for download. Yea, 803 00:47:57,640 --> 00:48:01,520 Speaker 1: so Zaren, what's your ridiculous day going that there isn't 804 00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:05,720 Speaker 1: an actual Howard Hughes autobiography? Could you imagine how dope 805 00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:08,919 Speaker 1: at book? God? If you could get his real take 806 00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:11,600 Speaker 1: on all of this, his real insights and that halting, 807 00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:16,680 Speaker 1: weird language he would I would lose my ever living mind. Also, 808 00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:18,600 Speaker 1: the only thing that could be better is if he 809 00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:21,000 Speaker 1: actually didn't want to write it and he had Orson 810 00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:23,759 Speaker 1: Wells sit there and interview all time, and then that's 811 00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:27,279 Speaker 1: who wrote the book. The only way it could be better, right, 812 00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:33,160 Speaker 1: I would just watch footage of that chair. I'm pretty 813 00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:36,560 Speaker 1: hard on male egos being a man, but that's the 814 00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:39,640 Speaker 1: type of male ego I want Morrison Wells and Howard Hughes, 815 00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:47,560 Speaker 1: just fully unfiltered, unset, unclothed. Well, that's that's all I 816 00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:54,640 Speaker 1: have for you today. Ridiculous takeaway, Elizabeth, You're welcome for asking. Um, 817 00:48:54,680 --> 00:48:58,359 Speaker 1: I'm really always fascinated by like compulsive liars. I can 818 00:48:58,400 --> 00:49:01,759 Speaker 1: kind of see where that's why you like, yeah, to 819 00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:05,719 Speaker 1: see where I had a student once who couldn't not play, 820 00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:08,920 Speaker 1: would only plagiarized papers. What do you mean, like the 821 00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:12,000 Speaker 1: student only turned in plagiarized papers. Were they afraid of 822 00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:14,719 Speaker 1: their own writers? I don't know. We had long conferences. 823 00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:17,560 Speaker 1: They do not understand what the paper was. It was. 824 00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:21,240 Speaker 1: It got to the point where I said, I challenge you, please, please, 825 00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:23,840 Speaker 1: for the love of God, turned something in that is 826 00:49:23,880 --> 00:49:29,399 Speaker 1: your own words, and they turned into plagiarized. You didn't 827 00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:31,160 Speaker 1: do the thing that teachers about used to make you 828 00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:32,520 Speaker 1: do the work in front of them. I guess you 829 00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:34,960 Speaker 1: probably couldn't do that in college. No, no, I mean 830 00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:40,200 Speaker 1: we had me and vice presidents and up and it 831 00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:43,040 Speaker 1: was just like but that fascinated me. And like in 832 00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:44,680 Speaker 1: this case, I don't think that this is like a 833 00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:46,920 Speaker 1: compulsive thing, but it kind of is, like it feels 834 00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:49,240 Speaker 1: pretty close. I mean, like the guy he doesn't understand 835 00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:51,120 Speaker 1: why he's driven, so that to me is a compulsion. 836 00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:54,080 Speaker 1: He's a he's a good writer to and that's what 837 00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:57,760 Speaker 1: I think is But he's also saying he tried to publish, 838 00:49:57,800 --> 00:49:59,560 Speaker 1: you know how, what was it twenty four times or 839 00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:02,279 Speaker 1: whatever he didn't get And the truth of the matter 840 00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:05,840 Speaker 1: is like with publishing, you're not It doesn't mean you're good, right, No, 841 00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:08,240 Speaker 1: as we have found without how people get publishing deals, 842 00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:11,520 Speaker 1: it just means you have people think someone will buy, 843 00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:16,520 Speaker 1: and people's manuscripts that are brilliant and they can't get published. Yeah, 844 00:50:16,719 --> 00:50:20,480 Speaker 1: the good writing doesn't mean it's profitable or salable. Totally true. 845 00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:22,680 Speaker 1: But yeah, so I just the idea that like he 846 00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:25,680 Speaker 1: just kept lying on top of lies and so confident 847 00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:27,479 Speaker 1: in it. That's what I like it. Like, it would 848 00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:29,520 Speaker 1: make me sick to my stomach to float even one 849 00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:32,520 Speaker 1: of these Oh god, yeah, I'd just be like in 850 00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:39,360 Speaker 1: a cold sweat constantly. And he's just like, yeah, I 851 00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:41,120 Speaker 1: just I don't I can't get my head around that, 852 00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:42,440 Speaker 1: and I don't know what that must feel like. So 853 00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:44,640 Speaker 1: it's interesting to meet it. You have to become a 854 00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:47,160 Speaker 1: middle aged man, and then you have to be afraid 855 00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:50,040 Speaker 1: of dying and losing your legacy, and then you just 856 00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:55,080 Speaker 1: go from okay, okay, I think to like this point 857 00:50:55,120 --> 00:50:57,680 Speaker 1: in history we talk about the seventies being it's a 858 00:50:57,719 --> 00:51:01,239 Speaker 1: touchdown with people. But I love stories like this where 859 00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:03,920 Speaker 1: you have all these like intersections of people in history 860 00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:07,840 Speaker 1: and right. It's amazing. I've never heard that there was 861 00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:09,960 Speaker 1: a Howard Use connection to Watergate, and I've read a 862 00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:13,160 Speaker 1: bunch about that. I mean, like, there it is. So 863 00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:17,520 Speaker 1: that's it. Thank you, Zarin. You can find us online 864 00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:20,120 Speaker 1: at Ridiculous Crime on both Twitter for the talking and 865 00:51:20,239 --> 00:51:23,520 Speaker 1: Instagram for the gawkin. Email us at Ridiculous Crime at 866 00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:31,920 Speaker 1: gmail dot com tune in next time. Ridiculous Crime is 867 00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:35,080 Speaker 1: hosted by Elizabeth Dutton and Zarin Burnett, produced and edited 868 00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:39,560 Speaker 1: by eccentric trillionaire Dave Kuston. That's whom researches by ACE 869 00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:43,239 Speaker 1: test pilot Marissa Brown and Swiss Bank teller Andrea song 870 00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:46,439 Speaker 1: sharpen Tier. The theme song is by Thomas Don't Cut 871 00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:50,360 Speaker 1: My Fingernails Lee and Travis Don't Cut My Hair. Dutton 872 00:51:50,719 --> 00:51:54,240 Speaker 1: Executive producers are Director of McGraw hill Publicity, Ben Bolan 873 00:51:54,360 --> 00:52:03,400 Speaker 1: and Life Magazine fact checker Noel Brown. Mm hmmm, ridasque 874 00:52:04,239 --> 00:52:08,719 Speaker 1: say it one more time? We dequeous Crime. Ridiculous Crime 875 00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:11,280 Speaker 1: is a production of I Heart Radio four More podcasts 876 00:52:11,320 --> 00:52:13,359 Speaker 1: to my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, 877 00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:16,320 Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.