1 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:06,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from how Stop 2 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:18,680 Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline. And we've talked about the National 4 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:23,239 Speaker 1: Organization for Women so many times on Stuff Mom Never 5 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: Told You pretty much any time we get into second 6 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 1: wave feminism, there's NOW, which is an acronym for the 7 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 1: National Organization for Women. There's now, by the way, Yeah, 8 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:38,560 Speaker 1: it's not that kristin syntax just completely broke down. There's now. 9 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 1: What does that even mean? Yeah, And we we obviously 10 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 1: talked about now in our episode on Polly Murray because 11 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:51,239 Speaker 1: she was one of the main leading figures helping to 12 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 1: found that organization. But we also talked about now in 13 00:00:54,960 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 1: our episode on the Lavender Menace and the schism within 14 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:05,120 Speaker 1: the National Organization for Women instigated by Betty for Dan 15 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 1: referring to lesbians within the organization as a quote unquote 16 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 1: lavender menace that she was scared of. Well, I mean, 17 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:16,480 Speaker 1: it honestly sounds just so well scented, you know, lavender, 18 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:19,919 Speaker 1: it's soothing, it's beautiful to look out over a field 19 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:22,839 Speaker 1: of lavender. Doesn't sound menacing at all exactly, which makes 20 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:25,840 Speaker 1: it worse, I know, well, at one source that I 21 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:30,959 Speaker 1: was reading about it to m describes her paranoia of 22 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:36,320 Speaker 1: lesbians within the organization, particularly radical feminist lesbians in the organization, 23 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 1: as a product of McCarthy era paranoia and borrowing some 24 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 1: of that same language. But I don't want to get 25 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:51,880 Speaker 1: to you ahead of our conversation that we have today 26 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 1: with current NOW president Terry O'Neill, who we were so 27 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 1: excited to talk to, because mean, this really is a 28 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 1: cornerstone organization of the feminist movement, well for sure, and Kristin, 29 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 1: you spoke with her shortly before you and I traveled 30 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: to Now's fiftieth anniversary celebration in Washington, d C. And 31 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:16,959 Speaker 1: I just want to go ahead and say that when 32 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: I met Terry with you in person, um, but talking 33 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 1: to her was so exciting because I feel like in 34 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 1: our day to day life, you know, we tell people 35 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 1: what we do, oh, you know, we are feminists, we 36 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:32,359 Speaker 1: have a feminist podcast, and everybody thinks, oh, that's very good, 37 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:34,919 Speaker 1: good for you. But to be in a room with 38 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 1: all of these hardcore, amazing feminist trailblazers and then to 39 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 1: talk to Terry and she was clearly so passionate about 40 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:46,239 Speaker 1: everything that Now has done and is doing and is 41 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:48,079 Speaker 1: planning to do in the future. And it was such 42 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 1: a great moment. And I mean, this woman was pumping 43 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:54,160 Speaker 1: her fist. I was so excited to talk to her. 44 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:57,679 Speaker 1: And in addition to her just having a warm personality, 45 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:03,640 Speaker 1: she is a wealth of knowledge and experience because Terry 46 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:09,640 Speaker 1: sits at this really interesting moment in Now's history, you know, 47 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:14,080 Speaker 1: as the president going into its fiftieth year, which is huge, 48 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:18,960 Speaker 1: but also when she got involved with the organization, it 49 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 1: had been around for a little bit, you know, she 50 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 1: wasn't one of the founding members, and her entry into 51 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 1: feminist activism and working with the National Organization for Women 52 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 1: is really reflective of how quickly NOW developed it's multi 53 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:44,760 Speaker 1: platform agenda that she's going to talk about because it's 54 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 1: something that we probably don't commonly know right well exactly, 55 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 1: And and what Kristen's referring to is going back to 56 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: that whole generational gap, the schism that happened not only 57 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 1: at the founding of NOW between women like Betty for 58 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 1: Dan who were not so keen on having the radical 59 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 1: lesbian feminists in their group, but also today the schism 60 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 1: that exists between millennial feminists and second way feminists because we, 61 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:21,559 Speaker 1: as younger feminists, stereotypically we tend to think of now 62 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:27,600 Speaker 1: as just this upper crest, middle class, white woman's working organization, 63 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 1: you know, almost like the original lean in that wasn't 64 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:36,160 Speaker 1: there as a voice for women of color, for lesbian women, 65 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:39,400 Speaker 1: that they weren't inclusive at all. But that's pretty far 66 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 1: from the truth. But then on the flip side of that, 67 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 1: you have these original members of the National Organization for 68 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 1: Women who look at millennial feminists who are active in 69 00:04:54,040 --> 00:05:00,080 Speaker 1: such different kinds of ways, um and our skeptical of 70 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 1: our commitment, you know, and our you know, question whether 71 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:08,160 Speaker 1: we take a lot of their work for granted and understandably. 72 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 1: And then you have on the other side of that gap, 73 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:18,520 Speaker 1: some of the original second wave feminist activists looking at 74 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:24,680 Speaker 1: millennial feminists today with a little bit of skepticism or 75 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:28,479 Speaker 1: a lot of bit of skepticism, because our forms of 76 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:31,839 Speaker 1: protests and activism in a lot of ways are radically 77 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:35,360 Speaker 1: different from what was happening in the sixth season, especially 78 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:37,919 Speaker 1: the seventies. And I think it's easy to dismiss no 79 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 1: matter who you are or how old you are. I 80 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:43,719 Speaker 1: think it's very easy to dismiss hashtag activism or online 81 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:47,839 Speaker 1: community building, um, if you don't look deeper into what's 82 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 1: going on, if you just brush people off as oh, well, 83 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:54,040 Speaker 1: they're just on their phones, um, because it doesn't look 84 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:57,040 Speaker 1: the same as picketing or marching. But what we're seeing, 85 00:05:57,200 --> 00:06:00,840 Speaker 1: especially now in this very contentious political climate that we're 86 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:03,279 Speaker 1: in today, we are seeing more and more young people 87 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:07,719 Speaker 1: taking that online community building that they've been working at 88 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 1: for so long literally to the streets to protest things 89 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:14,719 Speaker 1: like police violence. Here in Atlanta, we had ten thousand 90 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:19,279 Speaker 1: people and so many young people marching for those rights. 91 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 1: And that included not only the rights of black people 92 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:25,840 Speaker 1: to be safe in this country, but also I mean 93 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 1: women in this community as well to be able to 94 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: come together and protest. And parallel to that is this 95 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:38,440 Speaker 1: uncovering of women's history that a lot of millennial feminists 96 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:41,279 Speaker 1: are really interested in. I mean just thinking about the 97 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 1: kinds of articles that we share on social media about oh, 98 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:47,920 Speaker 1: here's the first woman who did this, here's the first 99 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:50,359 Speaker 1: woman who did that. Here all these trailblazers we didn't 100 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 1: know about. Um. And that also goes to filling in 101 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 1: this you know, not so distant history of what was 102 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 1: actually happening on the ground owned when the women's liberation 103 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 1: movement really got going in the nineteen seventies, because I 104 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 1: think it's really important for us to have a better 105 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 1: understanding of all of the intersections at that time to 106 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 1: inform our intersectionality today, because it is very shortsighted of 107 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 1: us to sit here in s and presume that now 108 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 1: is nothing more than a relic of a bygone and 109 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 1: more narrow minded era, because that's not the truth at all. So, 110 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 1: I mean, that's one one reason why I'm really excited 111 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 1: to share this conversation with Terry O'Neill as we Caroline 112 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:47,000 Speaker 1: and I offer a closer look at the that original founding, 113 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 1: the first you know, five six years of the National 114 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:57,240 Speaker 1: Organization for Women. So just to prepare you, dear listeners, 115 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 1: we are going to be going back and forth earth 116 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 1: from our chat with Terry O'Neill to this mini history 117 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:08,400 Speaker 1: that Caroline and I will be doing here in the studio. 118 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 1: But follow along please because I really, I really take 119 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 1: notes to take all the notes you want. Actually you 120 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 1: don't have to, because all the notes will be over 121 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 1: at stuff Mom've never told you dot com for your 122 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:23,120 Speaker 1: reading convenience. UM, but I really do believe that this 123 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 1: is such important women's history that we can all learn 124 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 1: something from. I know I have learned so much. So 125 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 1: first up, we are going to meet Terry O'Neill, the 126 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 1: president of the National Organization for Women, who we talked to, 127 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 1: like Caroline said, right before we went to their fiftieth 128 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:46,840 Speaker 1: anniversary conference, which we were so honored to be invited to. Um, 129 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:49,720 Speaker 1: And for a little bit about Terry's background, she is 130 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 1: a political activist, a former law professor specializing in feminist 131 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:58,840 Speaker 1: legal theory, international women's rights law, and legal ethics, and 132 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:02,720 Speaker 1: just an all around champion for women. Oh, thank you 133 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 1: so much for having me. And it really is an amazing, 134 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 1: amazing time. It's an amazing milestone. And what a year 135 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:15,719 Speaker 1: for now to be celebrating our fiftieth anniversary. Yeah, I mean, 136 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 1: does it does it seem like nineteen sixty six all 137 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:22,959 Speaker 1: over again in certain ways of political tensions arising and 138 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:27,200 Speaker 1: issues of gender and reproductive rights back in the news? 139 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 1: You know a little bit. But if I it's a 140 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 1: great way to ask that question, because if I try 141 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 1: to put myself back into nineteen sixty six, you know, 142 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:40,920 Speaker 1: We have so many pictures from that era and I go, 143 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 1: oh my god, things have really improved. We things really 144 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:49,319 Speaker 1: have improved. Um. For example, we now have a major demo, 145 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 1: a major political party. Uh that that is about to 146 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 1: nominate a woman, and a woman of remarkable achievement and 147 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:01,720 Speaker 1: a woman who is a thorough go being born feminist. 148 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 1: So that's just extraordinary. I mean, back in ninety six, guests, 149 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 1: who was in charge of most of the state level 150 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 1: commissions on the status of women? That would be white male. 151 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:17,840 Speaker 1: No surprise there, right, So Uh, I definitely want to 152 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:21,440 Speaker 1: come back to Hillary Clinton later in our conversation, but 153 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 1: first I want to learn a little bit more about 154 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 1: you and have you introduce yourself a little bit more 155 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:31,680 Speaker 1: for our audience. Um. And there is a question that 156 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 1: I'm borrowing from another fantastic podcast called Another Round that 157 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:39,840 Speaker 1: starts each of their interviews with guests with the question 158 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 1: what do you do and why? Okay, So, I am 159 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:49,319 Speaker 1: the president of the National Organization for Women UM. Our 160 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 1: purpose and it is a new purpose to start off 161 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 1: our our the next fifty years of feminist activism. Now 162 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:03,320 Speaker 1: purpose is to take action through intersectional grassroots organizing to 163 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:08,719 Speaker 1: promote feminist ideals and lead societal change. Uh, it's kind 164 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 1: of a mouthful, but the purpose, as stated in nineteen 165 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 1: sixty six, was to take action to bring women into 166 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 1: the mainstream of American society, and quite frankly, on many measures, 167 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:24,680 Speaker 1: we have achieved that goal. But but too many women 168 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 1: have been left behind. So when when the conference, the 169 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:32,960 Speaker 1: NOW Conference, the membership gathered last year in doing a 170 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 1: total by laws revision with a view to our fiftieth anniversary, 171 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 1: one of the things that came up was, so many 172 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 1: women have been left behind. We must really put a 173 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 1: a true commitment to intersectional organizing right into our by laws. 174 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:51,840 Speaker 1: So it's important to note there and and really re 175 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 1: emphasize the fact that Terry is stressing the importance of 176 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 1: intersectionality both in Now's past but also in their future 177 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 1: moving forward, because I mean, as we as we hinted 178 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:08,719 Speaker 1: at earlier, Now is frequently and has frequently been criticized 179 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:11,840 Speaker 1: for a for a lack of intersectionality and not having 180 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:15,320 Speaker 1: done enough for different types of women, different groups of 181 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:18,680 Speaker 1: women in the beginning at the inception of the group. 182 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 1: And I mean that's partially valid, but it's not entirely accurate. Yeah, 183 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 1: I mean, I have a feeling a lot of us 184 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:29,839 Speaker 1: and myself included until I read a lot and talked 185 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:32,200 Speaker 1: to Terry, but a lot of us probably don't know 186 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 1: the details of how the National Organization for Women happened. Um, 187 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 1: And it's kind of a fascinating story that begins in 188 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:45,160 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty five. That's right, that's when Polly Murray, and 189 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:49,079 Speaker 1: we mentioned earlier, and who's a major heroine of ours, 190 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:51,560 Speaker 1: she spoke to the National Council of Women of the 191 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 1: United States on the injustice of sex segregated job classified 192 00:12:57,280 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 1: and this is what we mean by sex segregated chat clause. 193 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:02,880 Speaker 1: It's well, it's pretty self explanatory, but it's basically like, 194 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:07,080 Speaker 1: over here, we're looking for a well educated man to 195 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:09,400 Speaker 1: be a boss and make a lot of money, make 196 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 1: a lot of money and wear suits. And I'm sure 197 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 1: that was specified just like that. And then over here 198 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 1: we've got the classified for women where you've got to 199 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 1: be the saucy little minx to be a secretary, looking 200 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:25,320 Speaker 1: for a saucy minks who doesn't mind being underpaid and 201 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 1: probably sexually harassed constantly. So Polly Murray's talk inspires a 202 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 1: labor union activist in the audience you've probably heard of 203 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:39,960 Speaker 1: named Betty for dan Um. She had just published The 204 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 1: Feminine Mystique, which you know, was this groundbreaking feminist text 205 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 1: identifying the quote unquote problem without a Name, which essentially 206 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:53,959 Speaker 1: is that, hey, uh, me and all my miladies went 207 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:57,360 Speaker 1: to Barnard and Vassar, etcetera. And now our housewives, what's 208 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 1: up with that? And Betty for day and who had 209 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 1: been really involved in labor activism, contacts Murray because she's like, lady, 210 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 1: you singing my song, let's talk. And then that that 211 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 1: kind of gets things going, which leads us into nineteen 212 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 1: sixties six when the annual National Conference of the State 213 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 1: Commissions on the Status of Women take place, which is 214 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 1: kind of a big deal because there was this Presidential 215 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 1: Council on the Status of Women, which Polly Murray and 216 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 1: other uh, you know, notable folks were appointed to to 217 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 1: essentially tell the White House what was up with all 218 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 1: of the gender equality going on. So these people involved 219 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 1: in these commissions were really excited at the prospect of 220 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 1: the government paying attention to women's issues, but also kind 221 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 1: of frustrated that they weren't really seeing much action out 222 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 1: of it. Yeah, well, exactly. They were excited at the prospect, 223 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 1: but in reality, not much was going on now before 224 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 1: we arrive at the national conference. What's been happening in 225 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:20,760 Speaker 1: preceding months with Betty for Dan is that, according to her, 226 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 1: she's been hearing from scores of suffragettes as she called them, 227 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 1: who had campaigned for the right to vote way back when, 228 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 1: who were beside themselves and completely marginalized in general, Like 229 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 1: after the nineteenth Amendment happened, the government was like, hey, ladies, 230 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 1: you can vote, so hands off, y'all. Just like, get 231 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:43,840 Speaker 1: back the kitchen or something. I don't know, maybe get 232 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 1: a job where you can be underpaid and sexually harassed. 233 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 1: I don't really care, um, but these, you know, women 234 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 1: who had dedicated their lives for suffrage were now so 235 00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 1: concerned that Title seven of a Civil Rights Act was 236 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 1: not being enforced. Entitled seven is the clause stating that 237 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 1: you essentially can't discriminate an employment on the basis of 238 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 1: things including sex. Yeah, raise color, religion, sex, and national origin. 239 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 1: But a lot of women were getting frustrated that the 240 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:20,640 Speaker 1: e O C seemed to be kind of overlooking the 241 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 1: word sex in the Civil Rights Act. So now we 242 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:30,400 Speaker 1: arrive at the national conference. Yeah, so for Dan shows up, 243 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:33,720 Speaker 1: She's definitely not pleased, and she ends up publicly denouncing 244 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 1: the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission's poor enforcement of Title seven. 245 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 1: And Polly Murray and fellow labor activists Dorothy Hainer get 246 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 1: when of for Dan being there, she's there is press uh. 247 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 1: They hear about her denouncing the e o C. They 248 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 1: convince her to meet with them and some other women 249 00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 1: in a hotel room where they essentially hatched a plan 250 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 1: to demand more action from the EGO SEE at this 251 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:04,160 Speaker 1: national conference. But the next day at the conference they 252 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:06,600 Speaker 1: were rebuffed. I feel like this should be a movie, 253 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:08,879 Speaker 1: like all these brilliant women getting together in a hotel 254 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:13,400 Speaker 1: room to plot plot for equality. I love it. A 255 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:16,680 Speaker 1: plot as in, you know, like a narrative for equality. 256 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:20,640 Speaker 1: Double meaning this movie is writing itself, Carolina, I would 257 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 1: watch it after it writes itself, because I'm not writing it. 258 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 1: So after they do the plotting and then the plotting 259 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:29,800 Speaker 1: falls through because the e f C is like nah, 260 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:33,200 Speaker 1: they are furious and still want to take actions. So 261 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:37,399 Speaker 1: this is what prompts them to form the National Organization 262 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:41,280 Speaker 1: for Women. They explicitly want to create actionable change without 263 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:44,520 Speaker 1: all of this governmental red tape getting in the way. 264 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:46,959 Speaker 1: And this is also what we referred to in our 265 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 1: episode on Paul Murray as the quote in double a 266 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:55,480 Speaker 1: c P for Women. So while the National Organization for Women, 267 00:17:55,480 --> 00:18:00,440 Speaker 1: I think is usually portrayed as just the brain child 268 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:04,479 Speaker 1: of Betty for Dan alone, it was not that. And 269 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 1: we want to correct a couple more over. Generalization's courtesy 270 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:12,720 Speaker 1: of Maryann Barrasco's very helpful book Governing Now Grassroots Activism 271 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:17,159 Speaker 1: in the National Organization for Women, because Brasco kind of 272 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:21,720 Speaker 1: breaks it down, you know, asking was this an exclusively white, 273 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:25,080 Speaker 1: middle class group of women who were solely intent on 274 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 1: elevating their own legal status and employment prospects, And the 275 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 1: answer is yes and no. I mean, because you have 276 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 1: to remember that Betty for Dan is coming from, you know, 277 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:40,440 Speaker 1: labor activism background. She herself is super white, super super 278 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:43,679 Speaker 1: middle class. Sure, and she also mind for those early 279 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 1: members of NOW. She also mind sort of the top 280 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 1: rung of of professional women. And I mean, if you 281 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:54,119 Speaker 1: just look at the women who are who have reached 282 00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 1: that point in the career ladder, they're not breaking the 283 00:18:56,840 --> 00:18:59,920 Speaker 1: glass ceiling yet, so to speak. But those did tend 284 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 1: to be fellow middle class white ladies basically, so yes, 285 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:07,480 Speaker 1: the answer is yes and no exactly. And Terry O'Neill 286 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:13,680 Speaker 1: addresses this in terms of the reality of how the 287 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:16,480 Speaker 1: organization came to be and how it functioned and who 288 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:20,920 Speaker 1: was a part of it versus the media narrative that 289 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:24,120 Speaker 1: has really established a lot of how we probably think 290 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:28,719 Speaker 1: about now today. What I think is that every movement 291 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:32,200 Speaker 1: has cross currents within it um and then you have 292 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 1: the media, which has the unenviable job of trying to 293 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 1: explain movements to the rest of the country, and and 294 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 1: and the explanation of it gets it's difficult. Media have 295 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 1: to simplify the message, and if they can't find a 296 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 1: simple narrative, they will make one up, not out of 297 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:52,439 Speaker 1: whole cloths. They will see what they look at, what 298 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 1: they can see, and they will construct their own narrative. 299 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 1: So I think partly there's been this, uh, this narrative 300 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:02,720 Speaker 1: out there that's partly on fair about the National Organization 301 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:07,200 Speaker 1: for Women being only focused on white women's problems. Part 302 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:09,639 Speaker 1: of the reason for that narrative, though, is that in 303 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:12,639 Speaker 1: the media's mind and in many people's mind, sort of 304 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 1: the second wave of feminism is now, and now is 305 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 1: the second wave of feminism. But we know that there 306 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:22,480 Speaker 1: were always many other organizations. Has said cross cutting, a 307 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:26,639 Speaker 1: cross currents within any movement. Now was always dedicated to 308 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:30,919 Speaker 1: recognizing the interconnectedness of all of these issues, but it 309 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:36,200 Speaker 1: was also always dedicated to grassroots organizing, and as such, 310 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 1: Now put a ton of resources into the community based organizations, 311 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 1: which left fewer resources for a massive um communications effort, 312 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 1: a massive PR effort, And that just has honestly for 313 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:56,239 Speaker 1: fifty years that the doing PR at the extense of 314 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 1: grassroots activism has just never been something that Now did 315 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 1: as a resulult. You know, sometimes the narrative uh is constructed, um, 316 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 1: and it doesn't quite capture what what now part of 317 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:14,720 Speaker 1: the women's movement has been. Now having said that, I 318 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 1: will tell you that I believe that within my own 319 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 1: organization and certainly within the women's movement, certainly the second 320 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 1: wave women's movement, we do have an intersectional gap. Uh 321 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:30,720 Speaker 1: is what I what I sort of call it. There 322 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:33,720 Speaker 1: are too many of us who look and have look 323 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 1: like me and have my life experience highly privileged, heterosexual, assist, 324 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:42,919 Speaker 1: gender well educated. Um Uh, there are too many women 325 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 1: who when they think about women's issues, they sort of 326 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:49,439 Speaker 1: immediately think of their own personal um experience. I know 327 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:52,800 Speaker 1: I make that mistake myself. What we have to do 328 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:56,280 Speaker 1: is say, how does this work for transgender women of color? 329 00:21:56,600 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 1: How does this work for women in the immigrant communit, 330 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:03,240 Speaker 1: how does this work for domestic workers, how does this 331 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:06,919 Speaker 1: policy play out in African American communities? If we are 332 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:10,719 Speaker 1: not constantly asking those questions, we are then creating an 333 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:14,880 Speaker 1: intersectional gap, and we are we will be just really 334 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:17,920 Speaker 1: accused of only caring about upper middle class white women. 335 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:21,920 Speaker 1: And later in our chat, Terry also offered some more 336 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 1: clarifying details on really the sexism that prompted a lot 337 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 1: of these women like Polly Murray to want to join 338 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:37,720 Speaker 1: and help form the National Organization for Women, Because a 339 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 1: lot of these founding members came straight out of other 340 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:47,360 Speaker 1: progressive initiatives, whether it's you know, championing civil rights or 341 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:51,640 Speaker 1: the peace movement, whatever, um, and they were often marginalized. 342 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:54,480 Speaker 1: I mean, you have usually like men at the top, 343 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 1: including in the civil rights movement, who sort of left 344 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 1: the lesser visible, more grassroots UM kind of organizing to 345 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:09,680 Speaker 1: the women. But in terms of decision making, and who 346 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 1: was the face of these movements. They really didn't have 347 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 1: much interest in letting women in the door. I think 348 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:20,720 Speaker 1: that that like every movement, there are across deep cross 349 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:24,080 Speaker 1: currents in the progressive movement. UM. Just as the women's 350 00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:27,960 Speaker 1: movement has had to overcome the image of being all 351 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:31,920 Speaker 1: white and upper middle class UM, the progressive movement has 352 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:34,760 Speaker 1: had to come an even harsher image, and that is 353 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 1: made up of entitled, uh, privileged white males who in 354 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 1: the nineteen sixties and the nineteen seventies specifically and explicitly 355 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 1: rejected the idea of female leadership. There were no women 356 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: in the piece movement that we're going to take leadership roles. 357 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:55,040 Speaker 1: There were no women in the anti um UH, in 358 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 1: the anti the anti violence movement, that we're going to 359 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:02,159 Speaker 1: be allowed to um to take leadership roles. Right. That 360 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:04,919 Speaker 1: was quite frankly also true in the civil rights movement. 361 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:08,000 Speaker 1: This is exactly why leaders like Polly Murray and Eileen 362 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:12,920 Speaker 1: hernandez UM wanted to start the National Organization for Women. So, 363 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 1: like Terry said, I mean, you have Polly Murray in 364 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 1: there as one of the initial organizers, but you also 365 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:21,920 Speaker 1: have e E. S C Chair, Eileen Hernandez among those 366 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:26,639 Speaker 1: forty nine founding members, and now was incredibly diverse in 367 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 1: terms of the backgrounds and professions of the women who 368 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 1: made it up. You you have union leaders like a 369 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,919 Speaker 1: Betty for Dan, but you also have sociologists. You've got 370 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 1: lady journalists and attorneys, religious leaders, and even media executives. 371 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:44,920 Speaker 1: And in terms of their activism backgrounds that they were 372 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,439 Speaker 1: coming from, you have women coming out of the United 373 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 1: Auto Workers, the in Double a c P, Students for 374 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,280 Speaker 1: a Democratic Society, the League of Women Voters, on and 375 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 1: on and on. And they even had a nun. So 376 00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:59,399 Speaker 1: we've got so many things covered. Yeah, I mean, if 377 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:02,959 Speaker 1: you've got a nune in their Sister Joel Reid was 378 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:07,439 Speaker 1: a nun and a founding member and original member of 379 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:11,160 Speaker 1: the National Organization for Women All Women Needed Now Yeah, 380 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 1: I mean she literally showed up and was like, listen, 381 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:16,879 Speaker 1: I you know, have devoted my life to the church, 382 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:19,760 Speaker 1: but there is certainly sexism there and I want to 383 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:22,160 Speaker 1: do something about it. I mean, why wasn't sister act 384 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,640 Speaker 1: about Sister Joel Reid. I'm just saying, talk about back 385 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:31,920 Speaker 1: in the habit of fighting there you go. Okay, we've 386 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,719 Speaker 1: got a lot of movie ideas just popping in this podcast. 387 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:39,440 Speaker 1: Gotta say we should really copyright all of these screenplay ideas. 388 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:45,000 Speaker 1: And in terms of the diversity of the members themselves, 389 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:47,680 Speaker 1: like the backgrounds they were coming from, and how it 390 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:53,639 Speaker 1: was rather narrow um that was addressed pretty early in 391 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:58,920 Speaker 1: the history of the organization. As Terry O'Neill also explains, Look, 392 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 1: feminism is simply the belief that men and women should 393 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:07,400 Speaker 1: share equally in all of the rights and responsibilities of 394 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:12,359 Speaker 1: living in society right, that women should have equal opportunities 395 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:16,920 Speaker 1: for leadership, that women have enormous um talents and skilled 396 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,359 Speaker 1: to make commitments to their communities, and that this needs 397 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 1: to be respected. So so truly, since the late nineteen 398 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:26,680 Speaker 1: sixties early seventies, has NOW really got it self organized. 399 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 1: Now developed a a multi issue agenda UH as well 400 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:37,080 Speaker 1: as multiple tactics for achieving our agenda. But from the 401 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:42,320 Speaker 1: very beginning more Now's uh Now's issue agenda included not 402 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:46,679 Speaker 1: just achieving the end of sex discrimination and employment, but 403 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:51,360 Speaker 1: also ending racism, also ending homophobia, and also ending violence 404 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:54,680 Speaker 1: against women, which we view as sort of a UH 405 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 1: that is what keeps us all in our place all 406 00:26:56,560 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 1: too often is systemic violence. So despite all of the 407 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 1: ever generalizing that tends to happen about now and its membership, 408 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 1: what is not an oversimplification or an over generalization is 409 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:12,000 Speaker 1: that these women were angry and they were honestly encouraged 410 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 1: to channel that anger into their activism. Basically like, hey, lady, 411 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:19,680 Speaker 1: what makes you angry, Let's fight against it. And this 412 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:24,920 Speaker 1: was something that founding member and former organization president who 413 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 1: we saw at the conference, Muriel Fox, told Time magazine 414 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:35,679 Speaker 1: in an interview in regarding the fiftieth anniversary, and she 415 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:37,960 Speaker 1: said everyone there knew that she wanted to work on 416 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:41,439 Speaker 1: what made her mad. That's the reason the movement was 417 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:44,880 Speaker 1: so successful. We had wonderful leaders, but we had thousands 418 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:48,120 Speaker 1: of people who all were leaders working on what made 419 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:52,560 Speaker 1: them angry about the situation at that time. And Fox's 420 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:56,320 Speaker 1: own anger stem from being turned down from a copyrighting 421 00:27:56,440 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 1: job on the basis of sex. She went to college, 422 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:02,960 Speaker 1: she you know, graduates and it's like, all right here, here, 423 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:05,760 Speaker 1: I come world, Surely the world will accept me as 424 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,920 Speaker 1: I am. Nope, nope, yeah, I mean, and the agency 425 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 1: told her flat out, we do not hire women for 426 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 1: this position. So instead of going to another agency. Fox 427 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:21,320 Speaker 1: just kept applying for different positions within the same agency 428 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 1: and finally gets hired as a publicist and quickly becomes 429 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:30,359 Speaker 1: a VP by nineteen sixty six. And that's great, And 430 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 1: as a lot of people told her that's great for 431 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,479 Speaker 1: a woman. It always had that asterisk, and they always 432 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 1: made it clear to her that Okay, well, you've made 433 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:41,800 Speaker 1: it as far as you're going to go, Like you've 434 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 1: made it to VP, what else do you want? And 435 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 1: that reminds me, Caroline of a moment at the conference 436 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:54,240 Speaker 1: we were at where I was sitting next to one 437 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 1: of the very early members of now and she told me, 438 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 1: you can't imagine what it was like to be a 439 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 1: woman back then, just like it's almost indescribable because saying that, 440 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 1: you know, like, you're doing fine for a woman, but 441 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:15,479 Speaker 1: that's as far as you're going to go, and that's it, 442 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:17,960 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, you're you're supposed to accept that, 443 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 1: whereas today, you know, you would tweet that and things 444 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 1: would just go viral and we'd have a hashtag. Oh yeah, 445 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 1: there'd be all sorts of hashtags. But back then, there 446 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:35,200 Speaker 1: was no even just basic respect for women's needs, desires, 447 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:37,959 Speaker 1: and autonomy. Sure. But and then here you have this 448 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:42,080 Speaker 1: group coming along saying not only we get your anger, 449 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,440 Speaker 1: we understand your frustration, but we want you to be angrier. 450 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 1: You're allowed to be angry, and you're allowed to be 451 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 1: vocal and have a voice, and we want to help 452 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,080 Speaker 1: you have that voice. I mean that's pretty revolutionary. Yeah, 453 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:55,440 Speaker 1: I mean, what scares society more than the thought of 454 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,720 Speaker 1: an angry woman and an angry woman talking. Yeah. I mean, 455 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:04,640 Speaker 1: how quickly do we jumped to marginalized angry women shut 456 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:10,240 Speaker 1: them down as being hysterical or overly emotional, especially women 457 00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:14,680 Speaker 1: of color. There's so much wrapped up with that UM. 458 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,960 Speaker 1: But in terms of the anger that really got and 459 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:21,560 Speaker 1: would continue to get women involved with NOW, it's really 460 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:24,640 Speaker 1: fascinating to see how it broadened and focused on different 461 00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:30,240 Speaker 1: forms of inequality, particularly as its mission crystallized into the 462 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:35,480 Speaker 1: early nineteen seventies. And this was something that jumped out 463 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:38,800 Speaker 1: to me in talking to Terry O'Neill, because it wasn't 464 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 1: actually an experience like Muriel Fox of experiencing sexism on 465 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:50,000 Speaker 1: a personal level that led Terry to the organization. I 466 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:54,040 Speaker 1: was in middle school when the UM, when NOW was formed, 467 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 1: and I guess through high school in Connecticut, in the 468 00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 1: suburbs of New York City. I just absorbed a feminist viewpoint, 469 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:09,360 Speaker 1: if you will, my so so so. From high school onward, 470 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 1: I supported the e r A. However, I was not 471 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 1: active in the streets, writing letters to the editor, contacting 472 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:19,240 Speaker 1: my member of Congress. I didn't do any of that 473 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:22,400 Speaker 1: for the e r A. I did go to law school. 474 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:27,040 Speaker 1: I I eventually ended up teaching law. My click moment 475 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 1: actually came in a in a sort of it's not 476 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:34,120 Speaker 1: gonna sound like it's it's completely focused on women, which 477 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:37,960 Speaker 1: is in fact true. That's my click moment was more 478 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:42,160 Speaker 1: about race. Uh. But I was living in Louisiana. I 479 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:45,800 Speaker 1: was teaching law at two Lane Law School, and David 480 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:49,160 Speaker 1: Duke Um, who had risen to leadership in the q 481 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:52,520 Speaker 1: plex Klan, who had strong ties with the neo Nazi 482 00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:55,520 Speaker 1: movement in the United States, was running for governor and 483 00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 1: he was ahead in the polls, and I joined the 484 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,880 Speaker 1: stop Duke moment did frankly, I did what a lot 485 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:04,600 Speaker 1: of women do. My daughter at the time was just 486 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:08,040 Speaker 1: six months old, and I suddenly looked around saw this 487 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:11,760 Speaker 1: guy almost becoming governor of the state that I was 488 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:14,000 Speaker 1: living in and raising a child in and I thought, 489 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 1: oh my god, things haven't gotten better like I thought 490 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,760 Speaker 1: they would. I need to take actions. So that was 491 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:24,680 Speaker 1: my click moment, was to stop Duke, and it really 492 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:29,880 Speaker 1: got The second sort of deep click moment happened when 493 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:35,040 Speaker 1: uh the exit polls showed although we did stop Duke, uh, 494 00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:38,959 Speaker 1: but but fifty point six percent of white women in 495 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 1: Orleans Parish actually voted for David Duke. That was my 496 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:47,240 Speaker 1: click moment where I said to myself, Okay, I could 497 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:52,040 Speaker 1: leave the state and have no job, or I could 498 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:54,080 Speaker 1: stay here and try to make a difference in my 499 00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:59,000 Speaker 1: own community. So what did you do then? Well, I 500 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 1: started looking for or a place, sort of an outlet 501 00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:06,360 Speaker 1: where I could volunteer my time and make kind of 502 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:09,200 Speaker 1: a difference. And I learned that, in fact, the National 503 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:13,360 Speaker 1: Organization for Women did have an active chapter right there 504 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 1: in New Orleans. I went to a meeting and on 505 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:19,440 Speaker 1: the wall is a big sign and it says it's 506 00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 1: it's a circle. It's it says uh, sexism, racism, homophobia, 507 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:28,840 Speaker 1: connect the dots. And I thought to myself, this is 508 00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:33,760 Speaker 1: an organization that gets me. I mean, I do worry 509 00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:38,640 Speaker 1: about sexism always have. But quite frankly, I have been fortunate, 510 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:42,520 Speaker 1: extremely fortunate in my lifetime, you know, working in Louisiana 511 00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:46,760 Speaker 1: at a in an elite school like two Lane, I 512 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 1: was not feeling the impact of sexism, but I was 513 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:53,720 Speaker 1: observing the impact of racism hugely all around me. And 514 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:58,320 Speaker 1: to find an organization that understood that sexism, racism, homophobia, 515 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:02,320 Speaker 1: these are all deeply intertwined. That was exactly the organization 516 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:05,000 Speaker 1: that I needed. And I do wonder if some of 517 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:08,160 Speaker 1: our younger listeners are surprised to hear that the National 518 00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:11,040 Speaker 1: Organization for Women had such a poster, But it is 519 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:15,560 Speaker 1: worth emphasizing that the importance of intersectionality was basically baked 520 00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:18,800 Speaker 1: into their statement of Purpose, which they wrote in October 521 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:23,399 Speaker 1: of nine. Yeah, and if you read it on the 522 00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:28,080 Speaker 1: organization's website, it notes that this is an historical document 523 00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:31,240 Speaker 1: because they have since you know, updated their statement of purpose, 524 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:35,759 Speaker 1: as Terry has talked about UM, but it still says 525 00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:37,920 Speaker 1: so much. I mean, it's a it's a it's a 526 00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:41,960 Speaker 1: pretty profound historical document UM to me at least, And 527 00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:45,040 Speaker 1: it says explicitly that the purpose of now is to 528 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,440 Speaker 1: take action to bring women into full participation in the 529 00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:53,600 Speaker 1: mainstream of American society now exercising all the privileges and 530 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:59,160 Speaker 1: responsibilities thereof in truly equal partnership with men. But then 531 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:07,200 Speaker 1: it goes in to even deeper detail, essentially itemizing all 532 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:10,840 Speaker 1: of the problems. I mean, there's not so much of 533 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:15,560 Speaker 1: a strategy as as there is just a laundry list 534 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:17,680 Speaker 1: of horrible things that they want to change. Why you 535 00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:20,920 Speaker 1: should get angry cause your receipts of things being problematic. 536 00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:25,080 Speaker 1: Uh So, they point out in this document that while 537 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:28,240 Speaker 1: nearly half of all American women between eighteen and sixty 538 00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:30,960 Speaker 1: five are working outside the home, most of those women 539 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:35,480 Speaker 1: have not been able to rise above routine clerical sales 540 00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:40,680 Speaker 1: or factory jobs or their householder domestic workers, cleaning women, 541 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:44,120 Speaker 1: hospital attendants. And they point out, quote about two thirds 542 00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:48,320 Speaker 1: of Negro women workers are in the lowest paid service occupations. 543 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:50,400 Speaker 1: So all of these things, Kristen, that you and I 544 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:53,800 Speaker 1: have frequently talked about on the podcast, issues of intersectionality, 545 00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:56,320 Speaker 1: the fact that the wage gap is not the same 546 00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:58,200 Speaker 1: for white women as it is for women of color, 547 00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:01,400 Speaker 1: that it's greater for black women and Latino women. Second 548 00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:04,000 Speaker 1: wave feminists. We're talking about this and this was clearly 549 00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:07,280 Speaker 1: so important to now well and one thing that jumps 550 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:10,880 Speaker 1: out to me in that statement of purpose, uh, partly 551 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:15,000 Speaker 1: due to our not so mild obsession with Polly Murray. 552 00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:19,239 Speaker 1: Is it talking about the e o c s in 553 00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:24,400 Speaker 1: effectiveness in terms of addressing sexual harassment claims in a 554 00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:28,760 Speaker 1: timely manner. But then it goes into how black women 555 00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:32,320 Speaker 1: are victims of quote double discrimination of race and sex, 556 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:35,040 Speaker 1: and that is language taken straight from Polly Murray, her 557 00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:40,359 Speaker 1: Jane Crow theory. Yes, yes, yes, so, I mean they 558 00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:44,960 Speaker 1: weren't one woke, but they were at least like half woke. 559 00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:47,520 Speaker 1: You know, they were awaken up. They're waken up. They 560 00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:50,120 Speaker 1: were woken up. There was almost folgers in their cut. 561 00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:57,800 Speaker 1: That's one for the for the thirty in the crowd. 562 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,480 Speaker 1: So in nine sixty seven now starts to see an 563 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:06,040 Speaker 1: influx of younger feminists who are really attracted to their 564 00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:10,000 Speaker 1: platform on reproductive rights. But at the same time as 565 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:15,080 Speaker 1: you're getting these intergenerational relationships basically in the feminist movement, 566 00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:18,120 Speaker 1: you also start to see a bit of a dichotomy emerge. Yeah, 567 00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:23,200 Speaker 1: I mean this is where you have the liberal feminists, 568 00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:25,640 Speaker 1: as they're referred to which would be the kind of 569 00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:31,040 Speaker 1: original core now women versus the more radical feminists. And 570 00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:34,719 Speaker 1: the big difference between the two is that liberal feminists 571 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:41,080 Speaker 1: are more focused on changing policy and laws in a 572 00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:46,440 Speaker 1: way to essentially like institutionalize equality, whereas radical feminists or 573 00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:49,640 Speaker 1: like burn the whole thing down, you know, gender roles, 574 00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:52,640 Speaker 1: throw it out the window. Guys, we don't need you 575 00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:55,680 Speaker 1: right now. Um, we're gonna go live on our farm. 576 00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:58,480 Speaker 1: And we're gonna go live on an all lady farm. 577 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:01,520 Speaker 1: I mean, talk about angry. They wanted none of it, 578 00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:04,520 Speaker 1: you know. And but there's a lot of gray area 579 00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:10,680 Speaker 1: between hardcore liberal feminists and hardcore radical feminists who were living, 580 00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:13,520 Speaker 1: you know, on the all women farms. And that's women 581 00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:18,560 Speaker 1: with a y, by the way, because as feminist historian 582 00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:23,440 Speaker 1: Joe Freeman rights, in nineteen seventy four, there were a 583 00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:29,080 Speaker 1: quote almost infinite variety of groups, styles, and organizations happening 584 00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:33,760 Speaker 1: within the movement, but it essentially sprang from the National 585 00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:36,480 Speaker 1: Organization for Women, and then you have, yeah, the younger 586 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:43,920 Speaker 1: generation of these civil rights turned women's lib activists. Because 587 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:46,360 Speaker 1: in addition to now, of course, you have all sorts 588 00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:51,680 Speaker 1: of smaller groups, including just feminists. I appreciated that group 589 00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:53,520 Speaker 1: organization name where it was like, you know what, let's 590 00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:56,960 Speaker 1: just you know, let's just call ourselves feminists. Yeah, they 591 00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:02,480 Speaker 1: were just capital F feminists there, our capital left. Yes, yes, 592 00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:05,160 Speaker 1: there was also I wonder what all those men on 593 00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:08,400 Speaker 1: Twitter are talking about the must be referring to that group. 594 00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:12,200 Speaker 1: You know, it's a men's rights activist when he capitalizes feminists. 595 00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:17,120 Speaker 1: I'm just saying it's something I've noticed. But in addition 596 00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:20,759 Speaker 1: to the capital F feminists, there were you know, the 597 00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:25,879 Speaker 1: New York Radical Women, the Chicago Women's Liberation Union, the Furies, 598 00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:29,919 Speaker 1: and one of our favorites, the Women's International Terrorist Conspiracy 599 00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:34,719 Speaker 1: from Hell, which notice which So there's all sorts of 600 00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:40,600 Speaker 1: activism happening, whether you're talking more about policy wonks trying 601 00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:50,520 Speaker 1: to rewrite laws or feminist witches staging hexes on zapping people, 602 00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:53,920 Speaker 1: tapping people on Wall Street and zapps were just like 603 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:58,640 Speaker 1: it's like negative energy, right, you're saying something nasty about somebody. Yeah, 604 00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:02,320 Speaker 1: I guess, yeah, I haven't. I actually have never participated 605 00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:07,919 Speaker 1: in a feminist that. I think it's time we do it. Listeners. 606 00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:13,320 Speaker 1: Let's um, but during this time, if we look at 607 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:17,359 Speaker 1: the national organization for women. Specifically, in their first three 608 00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:20,600 Speaker 1: years from sixty six to sixty nine, they were largely 609 00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:25,399 Speaker 1: focused on that e o C Entitle seven enforcement and 610 00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:28,880 Speaker 1: really just trying to exercise media attention. Because think about 611 00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:33,520 Speaker 1: who those founding members were. It was a lot of journalists, publicists, 612 00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:39,480 Speaker 1: and law folks, so it makes sense that this was 613 00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:44,040 Speaker 1: their tactic. And so things sound like they're coming pretty well, right. 614 00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:46,360 Speaker 1: I mean, you've got now it's attracting all these young women, 615 00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:48,960 Speaker 1: but you've also got powerful women from the upper echelons 616 00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:52,080 Speaker 1: of some of these you know, media fields. Oh it's 617 00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:56,040 Speaker 1: it's so wonderful feminism. Everybody's getting along, right, Like that's 618 00:40:56,600 --> 00:41:02,120 Speaker 1: totally accurate. Well, unfortunately are nineteen seventy. This is when 619 00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:06,040 Speaker 1: Betty for Dan goes on that lavender menace, which hunt 620 00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:10,799 Speaker 1: not involving the group, which just yeah, just kind of 621 00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:14,759 Speaker 1: not down with the lesbian feminists around her. Yeah, And 622 00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:19,640 Speaker 1: we devoted an entire episode to that. So we're not 623 00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:23,680 Speaker 1: going to go into great detail on it, because seriously, 624 00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:25,799 Speaker 1: you got like a fifty minute conversation that you can 625 00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:28,880 Speaker 1: listen to after you're done with this episode if you 626 00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:33,560 Speaker 1: want to learn more about it. But one thing a 627 00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:36,400 Speaker 1: lot of people today forget about or just don't know 628 00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:41,600 Speaker 1: about two is that by one the National Organization for 629 00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:44,920 Speaker 1: Women was like, Betty for Dan, you need to step 630 00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:50,279 Speaker 1: down as president. We do not espouse your homophobic and 631 00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:58,040 Speaker 1: paranoid views, and we also apologize. So Terry had a 632 00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:01,840 Speaker 1: lot of thoughts about Betty for Dan, the lavender menace, 633 00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:08,920 Speaker 1: and how the organization very quickly expanded it's by laws 634 00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:15,520 Speaker 1: and resolutions to include lesbians. But here's the thing. You're 635 00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:22,560 Speaker 1: gonna have to wait for those thoughts until next time. Cliffhanger, 636 00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:24,200 Speaker 1: I know, Oh my god, do you hate us for 637 00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:28,440 Speaker 1: this feminist Cliffhanger? Come on, you can hate a feminist Cliffhanger. 638 00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:30,880 Speaker 1: I know it is exciting. I'm excited. I'm excited for 639 00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:33,120 Speaker 1: you to hear the rest of it. Fair listeners, Yes, 640 00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:36,080 Speaker 1: and you definitely want to tune in to hear what 641 00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:39,719 Speaker 1: Terry has to say, because, as you can probably already tell, 642 00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:43,320 Speaker 1: she has even more brilliant insight to offer. But especially 643 00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:48,200 Speaker 1: when it comes to Betty for Dan's legacy within the organization, 644 00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:52,040 Speaker 1: what Terry has to say might surprise you. Um And 645 00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:55,080 Speaker 1: we also still just have a lot more to talk about, 646 00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:59,720 Speaker 1: So be sure to tune into Now and then Part two, 647 00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:04,040 Speaker 1: which will be all about how the movement kind of 648 00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:09,040 Speaker 1: went through these schisms and has continued fighting that good fight. 649 00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:12,399 Speaker 1: And in the meantime, we want to hear from you. 650 00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:16,200 Speaker 1: What kind of thoughts has this conversation about the National 651 00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:21,200 Speaker 1: Organization for Women and its president, Terry O'Neil raised for you, 652 00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:26,000 Speaker 1: Any thoughts, comments, questions. Moms Stuff at how Stuff works 653 00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:29,160 Speaker 1: dot com is our email address. You can also tweet 654 00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:33,200 Speaker 1: us at mom Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook, and 655 00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:35,800 Speaker 1: of course, if you want to learn more about the 656 00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:38,600 Speaker 1: National Organization for Women, you can also head over to 657 00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:43,719 Speaker 1: their website at now, which is n OW dot org. 658 00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:47,200 Speaker 1: So now let's share a couple of letters y'all sent 659 00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:53,879 Speaker 1: to us. Okay, well, I have a letter here from 660 00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:58,560 Speaker 1: Jody on our work Wife episode. She says, So, I'm 661 00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:01,600 Speaker 1: listening to the episode on work Wives and enjoying going 662 00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:04,480 Speaker 1: through the work spouse relationships, of jobs passed in my 663 00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:06,520 Speaker 1: head and all that jazz. No big deal. It was 664 00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:09,759 Speaker 1: a wonderful episode. I was even tempted to write in 665 00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:12,120 Speaker 1: to tell you of the hilarity of a work wife 666 00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:15,520 Speaker 1: relationship I had. I had yet to write in though, 667 00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:17,680 Speaker 1: because I always think I'm going to send in an 668 00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:21,440 Speaker 1: anecdote or comment and don't. Then today, much to my horror, 669 00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:24,880 Speaker 1: my work wife for the past four plus years, walked 670 00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:27,480 Speaker 1: into my office with the look on her face and 671 00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:30,160 Speaker 1: closed the door behind her. She wanted to let me 672 00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:34,120 Speaker 1: know before anyone else knew that she was resigning. It 673 00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:36,840 Speaker 1: was a sudden opportunity and she should totally take it, 674 00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:38,799 Speaker 1: even though she wasn't looking. But this is going to 675 00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:42,200 Speaker 1: be hard. I moved on internally a year or so ago, 676 00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:44,840 Speaker 1: but that did nothing but increase our work day and 677 00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:48,600 Speaker 1: after hours digital communication and tendency to crack jokes in 678 00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:52,560 Speaker 1: and disrupt staff meetings. We work in behavioral health and 679 00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:56,080 Speaker 1: function on many treatment teams seamlessly, so I'm mourning from 680 00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:58,520 Speaker 1: my loss of work spouse and the ease with which 681 00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:01,200 Speaker 1: we work together to serve our joint clients. I also 682 00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:03,360 Speaker 1: have to assist in breaking to these clients that this 683 00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:06,400 Speaker 1: change is happening without looking like it affects me personally. 684 00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:09,239 Speaker 1: I'm so thrilled for her to take the opportunity she 685 00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:12,360 Speaker 1: stumbled upon, but it makes me sad for me. I 686 00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:14,800 Speaker 1: know that's selfish, but I'll just admit to being selfish 687 00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:18,000 Speaker 1: right now. Heavy sigh. Thank you ladies for the awesome 688 00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:20,960 Speaker 1: podcast and the timely episode. I'm going to go pout 689 00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:26,000 Speaker 1: about this further. I'm sorry, Jody. Oh and it's so understandable, Jody. 690 00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:30,040 Speaker 1: I don't definitely don't beat yourself up over feeling selfish 691 00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:33,440 Speaker 1: at all about it. Um. I also have a work 692 00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:39,160 Speaker 1: wife letter to share. This one comes from Maggie, who writes, 693 00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:41,640 Speaker 1: while listening to your latest episode on work wives and 694 00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:44,400 Speaker 1: work relationships, I had a feeling like I was the 695 00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:47,440 Speaker 1: protagonist in a teen movie where the book we're reading 696 00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:50,600 Speaker 1: an English class actually reflects what's going on in my 697 00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:54,320 Speaker 1: own life. To explain, a few months back, I started 698 00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:56,480 Speaker 1: a new job that I love, and as you were 699 00:45:56,480 --> 00:45:59,160 Speaker 1: describing the different types of work relationships that people have, 700 00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:02,680 Speaker 1: it fell like you were describing my new office. There 701 00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:06,040 Speaker 1: are definitely a few pairs of work spouses, both sexual 702 00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:09,680 Speaker 1: orientation matching and not, and there are quite a few 703 00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:12,920 Speaker 1: groups of work besties. I'm new, so I would classify 704 00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:15,719 Speaker 1: myself more as an acquaintance right now, because work spouses 705 00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:18,600 Speaker 1: take time. But I think I have a mentor mentee 706 00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:21,759 Speaker 1: relationship with the woman who trained me When I started, 707 00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:23,680 Speaker 1: she was in the midst of being promoted to a 708 00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:26,640 Speaker 1: more supervisory role, and I was the first new hired 709 00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:29,440 Speaker 1: that she trained completely on her own. I love my 710 00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:32,000 Speaker 1: new job, and it's the most supportive environment I've ever 711 00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:35,439 Speaker 1: worked in. However, I did also recognize one or two 712 00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:39,080 Speaker 1: people that would match your description of the toxic personality. 713 00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:41,560 Speaker 1: There was another new hire that started a few weeks 714 00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:44,040 Speaker 1: after me that I frankly can't bear to stand to 715 00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:48,560 Speaker 1: be around. She complains constantly as a generally snotty attitude 716 00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:52,480 Speaker 1: that she miscategorizes as being quote unquote specie and will 717 00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:56,320 Speaker 1: argue when receiving instruction. After listening to your work relationship 718 00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:58,279 Speaker 1: episode in the part about building bridges with people in 719 00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:01,120 Speaker 1: order to have better working relationship, I decided to give 720 00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:04,360 Speaker 1: her another chance for both readers, and in an effort 721 00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:06,800 Speaker 1: to bond, I showed her a grammatical error I found 722 00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:08,800 Speaker 1: in the book I was currently reading, and she rolled 723 00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:11,880 Speaker 1: her eyes at me and insisted that authors don't have 724 00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:15,719 Speaker 1: to follow quote those little rules. I have a bachelor's 725 00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:18,600 Speaker 1: in English and a graduate certificate in publishing, so that 726 00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:21,120 Speaker 1: comment really great it on me. So in short, I've 727 00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:23,279 Speaker 1: come to the conclusion that not everyone is destined to 728 00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:26,160 Speaker 1: be work besties, and sometimes the smartest move is keeping 729 00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:29,919 Speaker 1: all contact purely work related to avoid becoming something much 730 00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:35,359 Speaker 1: worse than an acquaintance, the work friend of me. Well, 731 00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:38,640 Speaker 1: thank you so much, Maggie, and I agree. Not everyone 732 00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:42,440 Speaker 1: can be your work spouse or even your work friend, 733 00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:45,520 Speaker 1: and yeah, having a work front of me is the worst. 734 00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:49,920 Speaker 1: So keep your letters coming and be sure to tune 735 00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:53,200 Speaker 1: into Part two coming out in a couple of days 736 00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:56,200 Speaker 1: for links to all of our social media as well 737 00:47:56,239 --> 00:47:58,759 Speaker 1: as all of our blogs, studios and podcasts with our 738 00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:02,239 Speaker 1: sources so you can learn more about the National Organization 739 00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:05,560 Speaker 1: for Women and its history. Head on over to stuff 740 00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:13,160 Speaker 1: Mom Never Told You dot com for more on this 741 00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:15,800 Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff works 742 00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:23,960 Speaker 1: dot com